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ZenoArmani
October 22, 2009, 10:09 AM
Which villain that has appeared so far do you think is the most evil?

My vote goes for DonQuixote Doflamingo. He's an extatically cackling completely amoral nihilist, and world-class sadist, without any values whatsoever, who gets his kicks out of world-spanning slaver-rings, and forcing friends into fighting each other to death. That's pretty much the definition of absolute evil as I see it. I really hate his type of person.

But there have been plenty of really really nasty characters, including Sir Crocodile and Gecko Moria.

Which character(s) do you find most revolting?

Roarchu
October 22, 2009, 10:26 AM
The most evil I think are the Gorousei and the Tenryubito. Anyone against them is killed or becomes a slave.

They live in a way that makes Wapol seem humble.

They did who knows what in the lost history and that's how they came to power, and if anyone tries to find out what it was, they're killed. Obviously because whatever it was it was something atrocious. They're deceiving the entire world to protect their sick ways

I hate them

I think Doflamingo and BB aren't evil. They're just neutral

ZenoArmani
October 22, 2009, 10:36 AM
Agreed about the Tenryuubito being completely despicable, but imho Doflamingo is every bit as bad as they are. At least they're mostly ignorant idiots, whereas he does exactly the same things (slavery of the worst kind, forcing friends and loved ones to fight each other to death for his amusement), knows exactly what he's doing, takes much more extatic pleasure in it, and doesn't care beyond being cheerful about pissing off anyone with a shred of ethics. I see his type as a blend of Mussolini and the Joker.

Poneglyph420
October 22, 2009, 04:44 PM
Most Evil Character??
Hmmm. Well People aren't inherently Evil per-se, but their actions are.
That being the case Doflamingo is the most nefarious and cold hearted pirate we have seen up to now. But as part of the OP world Psychology he's not out of order.

I don't think anyone we have met has been wholly good or evil.
Especially on the Marines/WG side.

Machiavelli wrote: "...there will be traits considered good that, if followed, will lead to ruin, while other traits, considered vices which if practiced achieve security and well being for the Prince."

In the end I think the Tenryuubito would be the most "pathological" with the minds of serial killers they rule the commoners....

ZenoArmani
October 22, 2009, 06:40 PM
Well, I'd have agreed with you a few years back, but going by my experiences online (the legalise rape of minors, put anyone with a handicap in a camp, nihilism is great praise Chthulhu, and bullying people to commit suicide in inventively sadistic ways is hilarious crowd) and old studies of Nazi Germany, I'd say that a large part of humanity tends to leap at the chance to do unspeakable things for very flimsy reasons, especially the ones who think in terms of ideology rather than unthinking casual inconsideration or cruelty, i.e. want to put atrocities into system.

I've read a bit of Machiavelli, including that quote, and he would definitely qualify as one of the most genuine forms of evil as I see it, meaning completely in-control, no mitigating circumstances whatsoever, absolutely ruthless, underhanded manipulative and honourless, calculated amoral malevolence, so I'm not sure if I'd consider quoting him a good source to excuse Doflamingo, but yes, sometimes avoiding catastrophe requires distasteful methods. The problem with Machiavelli's type of absolutely amoral people is that they tend to argue for using it as an all-encompassing first option while rhetorically "overlooking" that fact.

I also disagree that the One Piece series itself has a completely amoral tone. When the WG destroys an entire country or Crocodile plots to slaughter millions these are not presented as good things, and the value of comradeship, honour, compassion, and courage in the face of injustice are major running themes. The Strawhats themselves, excepting Nico Robin, despite calling themselves pirates, haven't really gone around slaughtering and plundering civilians, or done anything worse than "stealing" some money as payment for their services. I'd more liken them to independent revolutionaries (in the "independent violent social workers opposing any wannabe mass-murderers and standing up for each other" sense, not murderous enough to warrant someone quoting "one man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter" as I see it) or somesuch. I'd also say that there have been a few characters that are almost as good as people come (Chopper, the Princess of Alabasta, Tashigi) and others literally as bad as what humanity is capable of producing (Doflamingo, Moria, Crocodile, the Tenryuubito, possibly certain WG leaders given their willingness to nuke civilians, but we don't know the full story yet).

If the series has a message I'd say it is that just because someone is part of some "side" and tries to do some good doesn't mean that other members of this side can't do the sort of things he or she hates personally, or that the other side can't contain plenty of honourable people, or that systems of chaos and order can both contain good and evil people or methods/that it's hard to find any uncompromised organisation to join, and that intense desperation and fear can drive othervise decent people to do horrible things, whichever you prefer. In fact I find it refreshingly upbeat, kind, imaginative, and optimistic compared to some of the really hollow, eroding, and sadistic stuff out there, like Bleach or Death Note for example.

Poneglyph420
October 22, 2009, 08:56 PM
If the series has a message I'd say it is that just because someone is part of some "side" and tries to do some good doesn't mean that other members of this side can't do the sort of things he or she hates personally, or that the other side can't contain plenty of honourable people, or that systems of chaos and order can both contain good and evil people or methods/that it's hard to find any uncompromised organisation to join, and that intense desperation and fear can drive othervise decent people to do horrible things, whichever you prefer. In fact I find it refreshingly upbeat, kind, imaginative, and optimistic compared to some of the really hollow, eroding, and sadistic stuff out there, like Bleach or Death Note for example.

I absolutely agree with the above quote and in therefore was trying to say good and evil exist in all realms. By no means do I excuse Doflamingo or any character deemed good or evil for any of their actions. I actually chose that Machiavelli quote to touch on the theme of corruption that runs through the series. I found it especially relevant with the war in play and the acts we have seen by the followers of "absolute justice". We see forces on all "sides" exhibiting both good and evil acts. While I do agree Doflamingo is one nasty rotten S.O.B. The issue is in semantics. Indeed there are a lot of people with good and bad tendencies.. no one is evil. The marines view of evil would differ greatly from a member of WB's crew. My point was to show that everyone has some motive and under that mental assumption finds justification.

Good and Evil are learned concepts (That many still don't understand properly) and not things in born into people. Its a condition of society.

However Doflamingo is a flippin' psychopath and the Tenryuubito are delusional. They exhibit "Evil" characteristics, but are not composed of 100% pure evil. Nor is Humanity.

ZenoArmani
October 23, 2009, 02:55 AM
To some degree sure, but I've never been able to really relate to the whole "It's only learned" perspective, beyond that intense enough conditioning from early on can either override or play up the instinctual patterns and tendencies for genuine conscience, compassion, and deep distaste for horrible acts. But a lot of people seem to be completely lacking those, and _only_ go through mechanical motions of self-preservations, which I can't relate to either. I'm raised without any religion whatsoever, and mostly without interference, and my views of good and evil generally seem pretty inherent (mostly nature rather than nurture), in the manner of getting deep disturbed nauseous reactions to the more intense filth out there. I remember always reacting much the same way even since I was really small, but I may or may not be an odd man out there. I can't read minds. Some relate to starting out evil when small and learning to be good through conditioning, whereas I've heard other relate to the opposite process, which is more my side of it as well.

Anyway, regardless of personal motivations driving them, i.e. the "anyone who objects to us going around to rape and mutilate children is an evil bigoted fascist racist" manner of personal objectives mixed with rationalising "let's bring this to a bigger scale" ideology, anyone like Doflamingo or the Tenryuubito would qualify as completely evil, with nothing good in them whatsoever by my standards, with the small aber that the Tenryuubito are apparently mostly blinkered idiots, whereas Doflamingo appears informed (i.e. the whole "Anything whatsoever can be justified with the right slogan and objectives differ so why care whatsoever? Let's put up a genocide camp in the back yard and create a "Lord of the Flies" situation as a social experiment to pass time" deal that is my face of the most genuine absolute vileness humanity is capable of producing, to the extent of putting virtually any Nazi in history to extreme shame) and takes joy in doing exactly the same things, since he's an embodiment of no values whatsoever except too-cool stylish sadism.

(Yeah, I have a major hangup about his type of person. They're the only kind of human beings who I can't find any redeeming qualities in whatsoever, or for that matter any hope of redeeming even the slightest. They're like a memetic cancer that simply drag anyone else down into the abyss with them. Mentally and any other way witin their reach.)

bittman
October 23, 2009, 03:32 AM
Just on Doflamingo, I don't think we've seen anything close to the depths which he has stepped in. A Slave House and murdering his sub-crew is bad, sure. But merely ways in which he highlights the evil in the world. If he's truly a Nihilist then he basically sits back in neutral ground and watches as the world grows cold around him. That said, sometimes simply sitting back or only having indirect hands in things can be seen as more evil than someone who goes around killing for the pleasure of it.

There have been a few "evil" people in this manga, but most of them have had some sort of redemption. Of all the characters we've seen the full story of (and thus we are able to judge it) Enel is currently the most evil and possibly the only insane antagonist in One Piece thus far (though Moria has some psychological issues).

I don't feel we have enough to judge on people such as Blackbeard, Doflamingo, Gorousei, Tenryuubito and Akainu. Tenryuubito are also a grouping of people, we've only seen 3 bad ones it might not be a true representation of their depths.

ZenoArmani
October 23, 2009, 06:29 AM
Well, it's the whole "highlighting/embracing the worst aspects of the world to the full degree while taking extreme pleasure and trying to look as cool as possible when doing so" bit, meaning the sheer sanity/awareness of exactly what he's doing and delighting in it that makes his type so chilling and despicable imho. Just because this author mostly skims over the more graphic details of what certain characters do, to not make the story too dark and depressing, doesn't mean that they don't do just as bad or worse things as in morbid horror settings. Or would you call a real-world rape-slaver morally neutral?

Enel on the other hand seemed bat**** insane, or at the very least really out of touch delusional, and it's called mental _illness_ for very good reasons, but yeah he also behaved like a major bastard.

Very good point about just a few of the Tenryuubito being seen yet though. Just because some of them are creeps doesn't mean all of them are. That's much of the idea of One Piece.

Fox666
October 25, 2009, 02:44 AM
Doflamingo is insane, not exactly evil. The tenryuubito are evil.

Sachsenhesse
October 25, 2009, 01:30 PM
crocodile for sure, he never did anything good in the entire manga which wasnt for his own goals

Shiro-kun
October 25, 2009, 02:34 PM
Crocodile , he was about to sacrifice a million people for his plans , and he is also quite known how to betray and turn his back on people...I always thought Crocodile was one sick bastard and even recently that has not change since he escaped Impel Down and helped Luffy mostly because of his own interests at hand.

Zehahaha
October 25, 2009, 04:03 PM
Crocodile too, this guy is just... Evil, sacrificing a lot of people just for the sake of his goals, and scheming some incredibles plans... This guy is really evil, there's Enel too, Tenryuubito...

BetaRuler
October 28, 2009, 05:27 AM
As far as im concerned, Crocodile is as evil as Captain Kuro, their personalities aren't far off from each other in fact i'd say Oda took Kuro's personality when he made Crocodile, their both quite cold, calculating, and they have little to no care for their followers nor partners. Just Croco is loved more because he's more powerful.

Shiryu aint too charming for he just loves killing anyone, the guards he saw as incompetant didn't get off too easy either it looks.

flamingo does have nihilistic views but he aint quite that evil, maybe for the fact that he keeps picking up new recruits and then dropping them at a moments notice when their in trouble.

Eneru aint too charming, he thinks himself greater than anyone, and he doesn't care if he has to kill everyone in the world just to proove he's greater.

I wouldnt forget Arlong, he killed Nami's parents and made her work for him, blackmailing her with the lives of the villagers and her sister, and for years he performed extortion and killed many other humans. I fear he may have had an ulterior motive and goal to proove fishmen superior because of the attrocities we've heard have been performed on the fishmen, but it doesn't make what he's done right.

Nor would I forget Morgan, he attacked his saviours without hesitation, and killed his crew members if they showed any fear without hesitation.

I think I find the Tenryubuto more menacing though, for their spoilt attitude, they treat the entire world like their property, spit and kick others, taking whoever they want to become their wife or slave. Almost anyone that encounters them seems to end up with memories that can scar them for a long time to come!
Edit: OK THE TENRYUBUTO THAT WE HAVE THUS FAR SEEN, just to be politically correct with this thread! lmao

Razh
October 28, 2009, 10:35 AM
Doflamingo ain't quite evil?
Oh yes he is. He gets points for owning a slave trade business alone.
Killing and abandoning his own men doesn't help.
He's clearly a sadistic evil man.

And has an annoying laughter.

Katz
October 28, 2009, 10:53 AM
I'd go with Doflamingo,him or Rob Lucci.

a poll would be nice on this particular thread.

ZenoArmani
October 28, 2009, 12:40 PM
I fixed it. If you think several characters are too close to call, just select each.

modoki
October 28, 2009, 01:46 PM
Honestly I think Kaidou could be very very cold blooded.

Lord Rayleigh
October 28, 2009, 05:26 PM
I've chosen Doflamingo, Crocodile, the Tenryuubito, Arlong and Spandam.
They all just kill, play with the others'life for their own pleasure/interest.

ZenoArmani
October 29, 2009, 04:16 AM
Sorry, I forgot Kaidou (and the other villainous Yonkou), since we haven't seen him yet, but he seems to build up into a major future enemy.

Bugzee
October 31, 2009, 08:29 PM
Well for me in no particular order:

DonQuixote Doflamingo - mysterious background, smiles when not needed, plays with people lol, very evil
Thunder "god" Eneru - badass dude with one of the best DF abilities!

Captain Blackbeard - hehehe evvvvill and sinister!

The Gorousei World Leaders - ruthless mothaf*ckas!!! Void years?? they know!!!

Admiral Akainu - his worse then stupid Kizaru!! imo

Chief Jailer Shiryuu - LOL perfect right-hand man for BB!!!! Truly Oda is a perfectionist!!! loool

Gecko Moria
November 01, 2009, 08:47 PM
Definitely the Tenryuubito and Gorousei. The Gorousei are the leaders of the World Government and hence the Marines so votes towards WG personnel and Marines should are basically equal to a vote for the Gorousei.

The Tenryuubito are a group of elitist aristocrats. They can choose to make anyone their slave and treat other people terribly (even Boa Hancock suffered atrocities at the hands of the Tenryuubito). Furthermore, they believe they have the right to do anything they want just because their ancestors "built the world" and the Gorousei/WG support them.

The Tenryuubito epitomize the evils of nobility and unfortunately the "democracy" in One Piece (World Government) doesn't do anything about it, making them just as evil.

Sachsenhesse
November 02, 2009, 05:31 PM
After that chinathing i knewed from which country you came before i even looked at your flag. ^^

There is no good or evil. Evil people from our view are good in their own view, this is all meaningless.

Razh
November 02, 2009, 05:38 PM
Pirate crews are individual. WG is an organization based on bad deeds, and they keep doing them to preserve the stability which they believe is the right way. Any country which doesn't want to join is doomed, it's people end up building a gigantic bridge until they die.
Sengoku may be generally a good man, but if he is that good, why put up with all that crap all this time. Sure, maybe he tries to do what he can.

Also, there is as much scum in Marines as there is among pirates. Just look at Akainu.

kamina
November 02, 2009, 05:45 PM
I agree in that I think it really depends on how you look at it, since there are a lot of marines and world government employees who do genuinely care about the safety of normal people and about bringing criminals to justice without having ambitious ulterior motives like Spandam or just going overboard with it like Akainu does, to name some examples.

If it were a story written from the viewpoint of one of those normal nice marines who just want to bring justice for the raping and pillaging type of pirates, I'd probably want to see them actually succeed through a biased view in their favor.
It's a pretty interesting idea to think about.

RichardMNixon
November 02, 2009, 05:47 PM
The WG is evil by any standards I can imagine, I suppose the Marines are debatable.

What do you meant "they" have no control over the Tenryuubito? They're physically pathetic. If they wanted the Tenryuubito to go away, they wouldn't even have to do it themselves, just lift their protection and the TRB wouldn't last a week.

LDSaint
November 02, 2009, 07:15 PM
The WG is evil i agree with RichardMNixon. and did they really order the buster call on robins home town cause of the threat of them finding the weapons i didnt think so from what i read they were anhilatted cause they found out to much about the lost history the blank century prof. clover (watever his name was) was ordered to be killed by the gouresin as soon as he started speaking about the old kingdom.

they just told every1 that reading the polygraphs is against the law because they r afraid of the weapons but really i think they are afraid of the people finding about the truth of how they came to power. they r rutherless killing any1 that doesnt follow them.

yeah they r good ppl in the marines but im sure none of them no the true intentions of the WG. they want to look good for the people so they dont lose the faith they have in the WG thats y sengoku ordered them to cut the transmission for the war so the people didnt see wat means they had to go through to win the war... which is to get people (i think dead) and turn them into weapons that do there biddings. its like on thriller bark when chopper found about the zombies and what hogback was donig to humans he was disgusted.

the WG is evil and the marines r working for them helping them in the evil goals

Banedor
November 02, 2009, 07:38 PM
No longer wish to discuss my original topic.

street_san
November 02, 2009, 08:02 PM
Sorry for my bad english. I'm not an english native speaker so...I'll do my best xD

For me I think you're right and what Oda wants to show us is that, if you want to suceed, you don't necessary need strenght, brutality and strict rules. Remember what Luffy said when Rayleigh asked Luffy if he was truly ready for the task that lay ahead in his dream of becoming the Pirate King:

http://www.onemanga.com/One_Piece/507/09/

My opinion is that Oda is foreshadowing Luffy as someone who accomplish his dream without any regret and without beeing a bully like Kidd. This is one of the major reason people allied with him. They see in Luffy a pirate out of ordinary. There's something in him that push you to allied with him and to be friend with him. All the actions Luffy made was with good intentions. The way he saved Nami and everybody he saved. And when he saved those peoples, he didn't made like Kidd and destroy the village he was on. He simply made a huge party, drank and eat with everyone and then left everyone with a happy smile. This is what Oda wants to show us. That, even if Luffy is a criminal in the face of the WG, there is no evidence in his actions that he deserve such a title. It is just like MLK. In his time people said that he was an imposture and whatever the insult you can find, but despite doing actions "against the law", people saw through him a good man and someone worth following. Just like Luffy.

As for the World Government, the way I see things is simple. There is the old WG and the new WG. The old one is people who think that what they did is right and that they need brutal strenght in order to make people listen their orders. If they don't do what they said they had to do...well you're a criminal and you deserve death penality. And theirs others who think of a great Justice. To punish true criminal and that everybody shall be free to go wherever they want and learn whatever they want, as long that they don't hurt others like Coby. Don't forget that his dream is to be an Admiral. With the rank that he want to achieve, he'll be really influent in the WG (I think) and he might be able to change things. He is also a "revolutionnary", but in the good way.

So basically, in both sides there is good and there is bad. Oda is just showing us that Governement and people can work together to create a better world (danm that was cute xD).

RichardMNixon
November 02, 2009, 08:06 PM
I could be mistaken but did the Marines say that the Tebryuubito are the direct desecendants of the old world and that they wish to keep them safe and that they have some high military officials in the marines to help preserve their security.

Couldn't this be similiar to corrupt policitians currently in our Political system?

They have influence in the WG just because; tradition I guess. The marines protect them because that's one of their jobs as required by the WG.

If John B. Senator used his political power to make sure the US looked away while him and his family kept slaves, I would call the US an evil gov't as well.

LDSaint
November 02, 2009, 09:09 PM
@banedor

the WG old or new watever u like to call it is evil i mite not no much about america and ur guys history books but im sure if peaople tred looking for the truth they wouldnt be put to death cause if they did the govt would be viewed as being evil and inhuman however that is what the WG in one piece is doing they r protecting a secret so "evil" that whoever even has the slightest ability to discover it is hunted down even if it is only a 8yr old girl. hey they even blow up a ship containg a every1 from an island just because there "might" of ben a chance that a person who could translate the polygraphs was on it... they didnt care about the innocent people that were on the ship all the WG cares about is themselves...

they dnt want to keep the balance between pirates, the marines and the shichibukai they want t end the pirate age they want the power and they get no matter wat just like i said be4 and as Razh also did if u dnt follow them then u and ur chuldren and their children are forced to build a bridge until they die.

there are only a few people in the marines that i actually consider good (every1 in WG is bad) and that is Aokiji, Smoker, Garp, Coby and maybe some others like Hina (i dnt really think kizaru is that evil) other then that every1 else is an agent of dark justice just like donflamingo said http://www.onemanga.com/One_Piece/556/10-11/

1 people only follow the WG because they r on top they decide what is considered right and wrong they decide the law, where some of them r right but most r not.

bittman
November 03, 2009, 12:17 AM
Calling the World Government evil is a misrepresentation. Alabasta is a part of the World Government, I was not aware they were evil.

What you mean to call evil is the Gorousei, heads of the World Government. Remember, just because a head is evil it does not mean the body follows in the exact same steps.

I keep to my view that evil is subjective, and there is really no-one in One Piece I would deem pure evil without at least adding a tag of insane. Gorousei may be close to it, but all they do is dish out an extreme version of information control. Though more extreme than what most governments do nowdays, there is always information control. Is it "evil" if you've killed 5,000 people to control information compared to bribing just one?

People follow the World Government for many reasons. Whether they hope to fix it, whether they hope to bring some peace to the world regardless of the cost or whether they are just oblivious to the sins of the Gorousei, it's unclear. If I was a normal person in the One Piece world, I would approve of the World Government over pirates. Pirates stand for complete ignorance of laws and rules, the World Government attempts to dictate and enforce laws and rules.

That said, pirates in this story are different to most. Really Luffy is not a pirate, just an adventurer who put the skull and crossbones on his sail. If there were no pirates, Luffy would still sail the seas. No-one sees Luffy as evil, just dangerous. Dangerous for promoting an era of rebellion and destruction.

RichardMNixon
November 03, 2009, 12:23 AM
No-one sees Luffy as evil, just dangerous. Dangerous for promoting an era of rebellion and destruction.

I'll agree with you that the Gorousei are the evil part of the WG (hereafter when I refer to the WG, I really mean them and the WG's overall goals), but I may have to disagree with you here depending on what you mean.

The WG doesn't consider Luffy dangerous because he "promotes" the word pirate or pirate kind; they consider him dangerous because he upsets the status quo, he wants freedom and they don't want people to be free.

Roger wasn't the world's worst criminal because he stole from people or destroyed kingdoms or called himself a pirate, it's because he went places and learned things the WG didn't want him to. They don't want people to be knowledgeable/free.

NoLimit89
November 03, 2009, 01:27 AM
After that china thing i knewed from which country you came before i even looked at your flag. ^^

There is no good or evil. Evil people from our view are good in their own view, this is all meaningless.

You know, I learned this lesson from my grandfather when I was 4-5 years old. I remember that my bedtime stories would consists of stories about history that involved heroism and politics. I would always ask him, "so who's the good guy, who's the bad guy?" and he would tell me, "there's no good guy or bad guy, they all have their own agendas". It was a wonderful lesson to learn at such an early age because it allowed me to critically analyze events and not be swayed by the bias.

Take the bombing of the twin towers for example, we all believe the suicide bombers to be bad people. However in their mind and in their world, they are the epitome of good, they are martyrs doing god's work and they will be rewarded with 72 virgins when they die. Think about that.

The stuff said by Doflamingo really applies here, whoever wins the war would be the "good guys".

P.S. I was born in China and came to Australia when I was 7. It is always interesting to see the antics of U.S people on the web. There's just such a mix of fundamental lefties and righties that balance each other out but are imo equally as crazy.

RichardMNixon
November 03, 2009, 02:53 AM
Take the bombing of the twin towers for example, we all believe the suicide bombers to be bad people. However in their mind and in their world, they are the epitome of good, they are martyrs doing god's work and they will be rewarded with 72 virgins when they die. Think about that.

The stuff said by Doflamingo really applies here, whoever wins the war would be the "good guys".


I would agree with Doflamingo, but I wish I wouldn't have to. Yes, the winner is the good guy because their version of history will make them look good, that doesn't mean the people of the time necessarily considered them to be good. Winning the war doesn't make you good, it allows you to make yourself look good to the people of the future, potentially by distorting the facts, and being good vs. looking good is a very important distinction.

And as for the twin towers, of course there is no real evil if you define good by whatever John Doe thinks is good; the word evil becomes virtually meaningless. Ethical philosophy can however produce more objective metrics than that and I have no problem calling a government or religion evil by those metrics. If your religion tells you it is a good thing to kill thousands of unsuspecting, defenseless, strangers, your religion is evil (or at least your interpretation of it is). If your government tells you it's a good thing to kill anyone who learns about history and if it endorses slavery, it is evil.

NoLimit89
November 03, 2009, 03:23 AM
Yes, but you're only saying that because of the shifting moral zeitgeist. It was okay to slaughter the infidels and stone women and children to death a thousand years ago.

bittman
November 03, 2009, 05:51 AM
NoLimit's point stands: In 100 years time, if you got your great-great-grandson to read One Piece, he might have a very different idea regarding what is evil and what is not. Good and evil is a personal belief.

Also, if my government tells me it's a good thing to kill anyone who learns history and endorses slavery, who is there to tell me "it's evil"? We can't imagine it so much now, but governments have endorsed slavery and genocide for centuries, if not millenia, and it was seen as perfectly legal and right by the rest of the world except those that were persecuted against.

Gats
November 03, 2009, 06:01 AM
NoLimit's point stands: In 100 years time, if you got your great-great-grandson to read One Piece, he might have a very different idea regarding what is evil and what is not. Good and evil is a personal belief.

Also, if my government tells me it's a good thing to kill anyone who learns history and endorses slavery, who is there to tell me "it's evil"? We can't imagine it so much now, but governments have endorsed slavery and genocide for centuries, if not millenia, and it was seen as perfectly legal and right by the rest of the world except those that were persecuted against.

If what are you saying was entirely true we would practice slavery even now. :/

NoLimit89
November 03, 2009, 07:58 AM
Have you heard about the different theories of morality? In the west now, we usually adopt a strong morality of autonomy, meaning that it is morally righteous to allow freedom for all. This of course results in capitalism and economic expansion and growth, hence allowing the countries that adopt this morality to expand their influence. One can also make the easy link between morality of autonomy with the abolishment of slavery.

However, this was not always the case. Prior to now, many countries adopt the morality of community or morality of divinity. In fact, some countries still do now. For example for a country with morality of community, the thing that they value most is not freedom, but social order and that everyone has a designated role to fill. They easily adapt to the model of social hierarchy and it would be justifiable to keep lower classes insofar as slaves so that social order is maintained.

In terms of morality of divinity then it is even easier, if you believe yourself to be people of god and you demonize those who do not share your belief, then you could rob them of their perceived humanity. It would then be very easy then to keep people as slaves if you don't perceive them as human, just like how one do not perceive keeping a chicken for the sole purpose of egg laying to be slavery or a morally wrong act.

These different moral systems could be one way to explain why the complete abolishment of slavery took so long to implement (thousands of years). In fact, slavery wasn't completely abolished in the whole world until 1981 and even so, we still have illegal skin trade business that mimics that of slavery (although most of which are results of socio-economical issues).

Lord Rayleigh
November 03, 2009, 08:28 AM
But from Sengoku's perspective, he's doing a good job is he not?

He ordered the destruction of Nico Robin's home island because they were researching the ancient glyphs of the world weapon, letting it get in Pirates hand would prove disastrous. (Think in realtive terms when China stole USA's nuclear secrets of Los Almos and the subsequent Spy missions that are still very shady used to try and stop China's progression in Nuclear Weapons.) Did Sengoku not make the right decision? I think so.

He formed the Shichibukai: Notorious Pirates working for the Government as Mercenaries to provide a huge military threat and ward Pirates off from piracy. (Think Hessian Soldiers used by the British as Mercenaries to try and help stop the revolting colony that would eventually become the USA.) Was this not a good move for the better of One Piece citizens? I think so.

He ordered the execution of Gol D. Roger, the Pirate King. Tried killing the leader of the Piracy era hoping that the lab dogs of piracy would go into hiding and slowly die out without their leader. Great idea, didn't work out too great but it did as the Government was able to take control of almost everything with the exception of the New World.

He's currently ordering the execution of Ace, Gol D.s Son. Now yes, Ace wants Blackbeard to become Pirate King but recently as we see, thanks to Squardo, it looks like the WB pirates would turn to Ace as their new leader and subsequently a new Gol D. Roger is born, but Sengoku looks like he knew that in advance and is trying to stop it before it gets to the new pirate era. (Like when Saddam Hussein was executed followed by his Sons so they had no one to retake command.)

You can support your country if you want. Building a parallel with some chosen actions of United States, you explain the WG's actions are thus acceptable ; but who tells us your country's actions are acceptable ?
Anyway, using the Saddam Hussein execution as an argument to demonstrate the WG is good is not what I'd call a great idea. I must remind you that Hussein's execution is a shame for United States, which call themselves the defender of democracy. I'm talking about the trial regarding the defendant's rights and the execution itself which was not conventional at all : filmed and broadcasted and put on the net, chiites claiming the name of one of their military boss, insults etc. How lucky Hussein was to be found by US'army ...


The Gorusei are really a strange group. They seem to want to establish an order for the sake of the people (which is good) and yet they let the tenryubitos do whatever they want on the WG's territory. If you want a system based on order, the first thing you do is to make you be legitimate to make everyone listens and carries out your decisions. After that, you put an end to the ones that are dangers for the stability and that provoke conspiration : opponents to the system, anarchists etc ...
The tenryubitos create problems in these two spheres :
- they can do what they want and also force the marines to do things (Kizaru has to capture Luffy for them, it was said again at MHQ) : they represent another power that can decide things without the Gorusei, and they are above the law.
- they give a negative vision of the WG to the people, which is dangerous for the stability of the system, all the more so as they are revolutionaries that gather countries and people.
I don't understand why the Gorusei has not put an end to the tenryubitos yet.

ofir271
November 03, 2009, 09:27 AM
i voted don flamingo but just because i couldnt find Nami !!

RichardMNixon
November 03, 2009, 09:31 AM
Yes, but you're only saying that because of the shifting moral zeitgeist. It was okay to slaughter the infidels and stone women and children to death a thousand years ago.

No, and that's my point. People thinking it was ok doesn't mean it's ok. That's why we need metrics that are objective as possible.

That "morality of divinity" is amoral by any objective standard of morality and I don't feel ethnocentric for saying so.

ZenoArmani
November 03, 2009, 10:21 AM
I've usually been split about the WG in One Piece, or at least about the Marines. On the one hand they try to bring stability, which is good, and yes, handing something akin to nuclear weaponry into the hands of potential terrorists and petty tyrants (of the Crocodile or Enel variety) would also be very bad. Attempting to stop the marauding, raping, and killing types of pirates would be a good thing, and killing Gol. D. Roger might be, depending on whether or not he was of that variety. However, the problem lies in the most extreme methods.

Hence, instead of simply burning the history books containing information about the weapon, and, say split up the specific connected historians to different locations without contact with each other (which would have been acceptable if it was a big enough threat), they put the inhabitants of an entire country to the torch, which would qualify as completely indefensible for anyone with even a shred of morality. (There is also the part that maybe it wasn't so much the weapon the wanted to keep secret, but rather "blank century" information about how they came to power?)

Likevise with not strictly selecting the adventurous Shanks- or Luffy-types of pirates for the Shishibukai. Most of them (Crocodile, Moria, Doflamingo, Blackbeard) seem to have been the absolutely worst available (and I don't care much for Hancock either), and to not do anything actually useful to the populace, (or at least slaver-rings, creating civil wars, or turning people into zombies don't exactly seem that way). Whitebeard and Shanks seem to have been a lot more useful when it comes to keeping the pillaging or enslaving pirates in check than the Shishibukai have, and the government intensely support the Tenryuubito and arbitrary enslavement of either citizens, or what you would see as colonialism metaphors for non-Caucasian "races" (mermaids, mermen, giants), so it seems like several members of the WG are considerably more interested in keeping their personal power than keeping the citizens safe.

(I've heard that there is supposed to be a specific Japanese terminology difference between the Eustace Kid type of pirates, and the Luffy/Shanks/likely Whitebeard kind, which would really count more as adventurers and freedom fighters than what we associate with the description.)

However, One Piece is very much about that every category has different types of people in it. There are benevolent rulers (the King and Princess of Alabasta) and monstrous rulers (like Vapolo), and most marines seem idealistic and to have the citizens in mind. The Admirals and Sengoku have mostly seemed like monsters so far though. Akainu is more interested in burning his most terrified soldiers to death than combatting the enemy, Aokiji and Sengoku kill almost all the inhabitants of a small country, the ambivalent Kizaru defends a bunch of tyrants and slavers.

ZenoArmani
November 03, 2009, 10:42 AM
Heh. Nami is just a greedy jerk, not evil, and she has shown very altruistic and well-intended sides as well. I do think Boa Hancock was forgiven way too easily though.

Razh
November 03, 2009, 11:52 AM
Sengoku puts up with it because he cares about the future and wishes to keep the Piracy era from causing any more bad blood.

Lol, Piracy Era. We've seen a lot more examples of WG and Marine violence than pirate violence.
At least pirates don't make people build humongous bridges until they die. Nor do they enslave people.


How do you feel the WG is an organization based on bad deeds? Yes they do what they feel is the right way and try to preserve that. Is this not similiar to what current and pasted Governments have done? Germany during WW2 did the same thing and currently USA does the same thing in Iraq, Afghanistan. North Korea the same with its Media blackout and etc. Everyone country does the same unfortunately I don't know the history on every country to give you an example for every country. But if you dig, you're find something.

Excuse me, but I need to ask you a question. From which chapter did you read One Piece?
WG wants to keep the dark century a secret at any cost. Seeing how WG is doing now, they must have done some scary shit.
Please don't bring bullshit about preserving the right way in here. Killing women and children to get some oil is not the right way.

You should be the one digging through history. Especially through some older One Piece chapters. Take a good look what WG did at Ohara and who knows how many other islands. Take a look how they enslave people and make them work until they die.


Akainu seems fine to me so far, he's still in the dark as we don't really know much, sure he's attacking the Pirates right now but did they not invade the Marine HQs and try to stop justice from being served?

Fine? He ordered fire on the ship from his own fleet, just to be sure that none of the Ohara people manages to escape. He killed one of his own men because he was too scared.
Funny though, I have yet to see a pirate captain kill one of his own men (aside from Crocodile and Doflamingo but they are scum and on WG side), and we saw it among the Marines two times.
Shabondy arc was to erase any doubt that WG is bad.

Also, Revolutionaries wouldn't be so successful if everyone in WG is all jolly and happy. In revolution, people turn against the authorities they don't like.

RichardMNixon
November 03, 2009, 05:05 PM
(There is also the part that maybe it wasn't so much the weapon the wanted to keep secret, but rather "blank century" information about how they came to power?)


I think it was strongly implied that the weapons were just an excuse to demonize Ohara, that the WG was actually concerned about the blank century; especially since the WG has also resorted to their own underhanded methods to rebuild the weapons.

Off topic diverging to the weapons, those cause an awful lot of trouble in the world... Pluton was the cause for Luffy fighting both Crocodile and Lucci.

NoLimit89
November 03, 2009, 06:33 PM
No, and that's my point. People thinking it was ok doesn't mean it's ok. That's why we need metrics that are objective as possible.

That "morality of divinity" is amoral by any objective standard of morality and I don't feel ethnocentric for saying so.

Of course we feel that it is amoral now, but once again, we are feeling this way because of our current zeitgeist. However, it is not fair to claim that a culture's moral system is amoral by any standards. It would be much more accurate to say that it is amoral by OUR standards. Afterall, their moral is moral in their standards and they may think our way of doing is amoral. E.g. We KNOW that it is completely okay to let homosexuals be themselves and saying otherwise would be amoral. However, for them, they may see it as going against nature and god (I'm not saying it is, I'm saying they think it is) and to let it go on would be amoral.

You can imagine if it was thousands of years ago and we have two cultures that collided that have such polarized view of morality, then there always tended to be war, and both sides would think that they're being righteous. That is all I'm saying.

Hitsug@ya ta1ch0u
November 03, 2009, 06:58 PM
Yes in the same way the Rebellion could be viewed as evil in Star wars

madmotoristmonk
November 03, 2009, 07:32 PM
Excellent topic, first of all!

Now I just have something new to add to the discussion.

1) Who are the Tenryuobito? I mean, I know that thier the decendants of the 20 kings who founded the WG. But seriously, who are they? What do they have that makes the WG and Marines protect them so? They are (as someone already said) physically pathetic, they definitely aren't that smart (any idiot could tell not to pull a gun on Roranoa Zoro), they haven't shown any reason at all why they would deserve the dipolomatic immunity their given. Maybe in future chapters we'll see why the WG hides the Void Century, and why the status quo needs to remain so.

2) I definitley agree with the idea that even without pirates, Luffy would still be an adventurer. I just believe that he feels the term "Pirate" is synomnous with what he wants. Remember when he met other pirate captians (Kuro, Krieg) and was disgusted at what most people would actually define as a pirate (a crimanal on the sea, a individual who opperates outside of moral and govt limits)

3) Akainu seems more like a follower of Dark Justice to me. He'd probably fit right in the Cipher Pol. I won't call any particular Government out, but i imagine theres all sorts of shady/morally questionable things Your/My/His(er) Countries/ People do to maintain their prosperity that makes for the suffering of others.
Everytime a diamond is bought, it only futhers the goings on of places like Seira Leone. Or for a more relatable one, think of the rinky dink dayjob you got at Quiznoss, McDonalds, etc, you took a job away from; a single mother, recovering drug addict, regular guy, etc. Someone suffered for your gain.
My point being, we don't really know why the WG does what it does, and if Oda is the writer we think he is, he'll explain it later on in a way that allows some sympathy for these characters we've been quick to call "Evil"

LDSaint
November 03, 2009, 10:54 PM
half of the posts here dont even mentiont one piece or luffy isnt that wat this disscussion about???

our world and the world of one piece are NOT the same. yeah in our world there are many different cultures and stuff like that but is there in one piece is there??? from what ive read and seen there isnt...there is only 1 "culture" (im not sure if thats the right word to use) in one piece they all practically grew up the same way as every1 else did just maybe in different conditiond eg. being born in alabasta compared to like water 7. the majority of the ppl seen (not including pirates) all have been shown to have similar morals and views of wat is right and wrong.

and from this the WG is evil y? because they no that if the regular citzens of the world find out about the past, about the kuma bots and other things the WG is hiding that they will think that the WG is evil, bad watever... y else would they b hiding it and protecting it? y if countries dnt follow them do they turn them into slaves...?

Banedor
November 03, 2009, 11:20 PM
Was there really a need to move my thread? Now I'm not even going to bother continuing this topic that I thought was a worthy discussion for its OWN thread.

I used Luffy because HE is the protagonist as is the Pirates as a whole as they are fighting against the WG the antagonist. I can't name every pirate in the opening topic thus used Luffy to represent the Pirates as a whole.

This is a thread of who is the evilest character, I fail to see how my thread which cause readers to look at the story from another perspective and pique their creative minds to look at the story in a deeper mindset.

With all that said, Good day MH Mod who moved this and couldn't even give me an explanation in a Private Message.

LDSaint
November 04, 2009, 01:54 AM
please restore the old thread i also fail to see how wat we were previously discussing fits it here. we dnt mention any of the characters in the poll (cept luffy)

Tsukisama
November 04, 2009, 07:47 AM
Was there really a need to move my thread? Now I'm not even going to bother continuing this topic that I thought was a worthy discussion for its OWN thread.

I used Luffy because HE is the protagonist as is the Pirates as a whole as they are fighting against the WG the antagonist. I can't name every pirate in the opening topic thus used Luffy to represent the Pirates as a whole.

This is a thread of who is the evilest character, I fail to see how my thread which cause readers to look at the story from another perspective and pique their creative minds to look at the story in a deeper mindset.

With all that said, Good day MH Mod who moved this and couldn't even give me an explanation in a Private Message.

I merged the threads, because all of the posts in your thread were discussing morality in general with the exception of your first post. None of the responses were focused specifically on Luffy's role as protagonist or antagonist; instead, the discussion on what constitutes an evil character.

If you can show a siginificant number of posts that were originally from your thread that discuss your topic and not this one, then I will separate the threads.

Bugzee
November 04, 2009, 08:19 PM
I would've added croc-boy as well. But to me, his just badass and has a laidback stance. I mean true that he had cruel and evil intentions in Arabasta but overall after considering the other evil characters, I still see Croc in a different category compared to others such as BB, Doflam, Dragon & Eneru (Not in terms of power, strength and reputation!). The best way I can explain it is his simply not evil in the way most of the others are lol.


*Wouldn't mind seeing a Croc and Capone Bege clash hehehe*

Poneglyph420
November 06, 2009, 01:55 AM
I'm so glad I voted for Akainu as well, now he is becoming one of the more "evil" characters, indeed a follower of "Dark Justice". I think it's becoming clear that the WG seems to run on some immoral standards. No more evil than Doflamingo or Croc.
but for sure up there in the evil list....

ZenoArmani
December 10, 2009, 09:12 AM
Since people seem to have mostly stopped voting, here is the list so far:

1) Doflamingo
2) The Shabondi Tenryuubito
3) The Gorousei
4) Eneru
5) Crocodile
6) Akainu
7) Blackbeard; Arlong; Spandam
8) Shiryuu; Rob Lucci
9) Moria; Vegapunk; Vapolo; Bellamy
10) Eustace Kid; Kuro; Don Krieg
11) Morgan; Unlisted

modoki
December 10, 2009, 03:01 PM
Honestly I would have to agree, Donflamingo has a pretty twisted mind. He is on a level of evil higher than the world nobles. He is kinda fit to be a yonkou.
Using the word yonkou pretty much kills it. Each yonkou has tons of support from many NW pirates, while Donflamingo is the direct opposite.

Out of all the members of the Shichibukai and One piece (for now), flamingo is probably the most demented, sick/twisted character.
I will stick with flamingo until Kaidou is introduced.

ZenoArmani
December 10, 2009, 04:07 PM
Yup, I think he is on the most epic scale of evil, possibly along with Crocodile. The worst guys in the series are slugging it out in the manga right now, which is kind of cool. Whoever loses, the World wins. ;)

vagabond87
December 24, 2009, 02:04 AM
Doflamingo, Rob Lucci, ONIGUMO and Akainu are pure evil.. I think onigumo will be one of the greatest villian in future of one piece because he is "Absolute Justice" follower and have great potential in his fruit..

Poneglyph420
December 24, 2009, 03:25 AM
Doflamingo, Rob Lucci, ONIGUMO and Akainu are pure evil.. I think onigumo will be one of the greatest villian in future of one piece because he is "Dark Justice" follower and have great potential in his fruit..

Pretty sure Onigumo is a follower of Absolute Justice... Check your sources..

But I'm starting to think the real evil lies within the WG for sure.....

Super Angillis
December 24, 2009, 05:44 PM
I decided to go with Doflamingo over the Tenryubito in the end. The Tenryubito seem to at least have some concern for each other. Doflamingo seems to have absolutly no care for anyone but himself. Although the Tenryubito would pretty much singlehandedly explain why Dragon's revolution seems to be doing so well. As to why the WG supports the Tenryubito, I think it's got something to do with money. I mean, look how casually they throw around sums in the 100's of millions of berries.

ZenoArmani
December 27, 2009, 04:07 PM
Sorry. I didn't remember Onigumo when I wrote the alternatives, but he seems much the same as Rob Lucci (Rob Lucky, heh), Spandam, and Akainu for sure.

Anyway, here is the updated list:

1) DonQuixote Doflamingo; The Shabondi Tenryuubito
2) The Gorousei
3) Akainu
4) Spandam
5) Eneru; Shiryuu
6) Rob Lucci
7) Crocodile; Blackbeard
8) Arlong
9) Moria; Sengoku
10) Vegapunk; Vapolo; Kuro; Bellamy
11) Don Krieg; Eustace Kid
12) Kizaru; "Other"
13) Morgan

And no votes yet for Aokiji or Boa Hancock.

It's a bit weird that Crocodile rates so low now.

Gecko Moria
December 28, 2009, 05:08 AM
Doflamingo, Rob Lucci, ONIGUMO and Akainu are pure evil.. I think onigumo will be one of the greatest villian in future of one piece because he is "Absolute Justice" follower and have great potential in his fruit..

I wouldn't exactly classify characters that follow the "Absolute Justice" code as evil, just extremely radical. In the end, they're simply following what they consider to be prudent and/or what they are instructed to do. The real villains here are the people who command them to carry out "Absolute Justice" (e.g. Gorosei). Obviously, there are people (Aokiji, Garp, Saul etc.) who must be commended for choosing a more honorable path despite orders from superiors.

vagabond87
December 28, 2009, 06:00 AM
I wouldn't exactly classify characters that follow the "Absolute Justice" code as evil, just extremely radical. In the end, they're simply following what they consider to be prudent and/or what they are instructed to do. The real villains here are the people who command them to carry out "Absolute Justice" (e.g. Gorosei). Obviously, there are people (Aokiji, Garp, Saul etc.) who must be commended for choosing a more honorable path despite orders from superiors.

I see your point... So we can call them less honorable then every single other character in one piece :p

Lord Rayleigh
December 28, 2009, 08:25 AM
I wouldn't exactly classify characters that follow the "Absolute Justice" code as evil, just extremely radical. In the end, they're simply following what they consider to be prudent and/or what they are instructed to do. The real villains here are the people who command them to carry out "Absolute Justice" (e.g. Gorosei). Obviously, there are people (Aokiji, Garp, Saul etc.) who must be commended for choosing a more honorable path despite orders from superiors.
Those guys are completely evil. As you said (i.e " Aokiji, Garp, Saul etc...) a marine officer does not need to support Absolute Justice, it is a personal choice. Besides, if those guys became the marine/government leaders, they would establish a system that would be a disaster for the world. We all know Absolute Justice would create a No Freedom land. Those guys are definitely more dangerous for people than evil pirates.

ZenoArmani
December 28, 2009, 12:16 PM
Apparently more dangerous for their own people too...

Anyway, I mostly agree. There is also a difference between someone who is "just following orders" because he/she is too scared not to, say, dump Agent Orange on civilians, or work as a Nazi extermination- or Japanese rape-camp guard, or in this case goes along with putting entire countries to the torch, and someone who enthusiastically enforces and encourages these principles and creates the fear to stand up against the practices with the literally fascist threat of immediate execution othervise, and will gladly wipe out thousands of his/her own men simply to exterminate a mostly benevolent freebooter. The latter category is worse. It's not about fear and desperation, just about pure evil.

As Rayleigh said, if Akainu, Spandam, Rob Lucci, Onigumo, and their likes were in charge they would do exactly the same things as the worst of the Gorousei. There is absolutely no moral difference between them, beyond that Akainu's type is also extremely tough and courageous, but that's hardly an excuse.

RichardMNixon
December 28, 2009, 03:39 PM
Doflamingo definitely has a bit of the Joker in him.

I think I mostly voted for the leaders in the poll, the only one I added that doesn't have too many votes is Kidd. The guy kills anyone who laughs at him and has a bounty higher than Luffy's: earned by slaughtering civilians. Maybe he has a nobler purpose than the Tenryuubito, but he's still a bastard.

Drmke
December 28, 2009, 03:46 PM
I voted for Crocodile just because he has done the worst evil so far imo. Trying to tear a country apart by having its people destroy themselves is pretty bad. Blackbeard doesn't strike me as full-on evil yet. He just seem like another pirate to achieve his dreams, just going about it differently than Luffy.

Don't really know enough about Doflamingo to say he is the most evil character though honestly, it seems like he might be when more about him is revealed. All the marine guys are just doing what they consider justice. They view pirates as evil so its hard to really say they are evil. Though CP9 weren't very good guys but seems like they are reforming.

Watch us all be surprised when Luffy turns out to be evil at the end of the series ;)

vagabond87
January 01, 2010, 08:36 AM
Watch us all be surprised when Luffy turns out to be evil at the end of the series ;)[/QUOTE]

He can be "evil" in the future, but not in the same league as Akainu,Lucci,Onigumo.. Not so long ago we heard from Sqado that his entire crew was killed by Roger so isnt someone killing entire enemy crew evil??? Their was Sqados "family" just like strawhats for our rubberman. Maby in future Luffy will have to kill someone(Kaidou maby) because he will have no other choice- with great power he will have great responsibilty and have to make some hard choices. I hope we will see deaths in one piece- after first really big death in the series. Whitebeards death..

Super Angillis
January 01, 2010, 10:29 PM
We don't know what happened with Squardo's crew though. We don't know if they attacked Roger and his crew and it was self defence for example. Although in a lot of ways, that is just another thing in this arc that shows us why it's a good thing Luffy doesn't kill his foes. Without the help of the likes of Buggy, Mr. 3 and Crocodile, Luffy probably wouldn't have made it out of Impel down. And without Crocoboy's intervention, the first attempt to execute Ace would have succeded. As Mihawk said, Luffy's most terrifying ablility is his ability to gather allies.