Bleach Hangout Thread 3.0

[jaymizzo]

I agree with KKCK. IMHO, Kubo is keeping characters like Tessai, Isshin, Urahara etc. in shadows. I am sure they have their purposes. Tessia, by logic, should be more capable than Hachi. My concern though is, are they going to fail as Vizards did? The expectations we had for them, and logically they were supposed to be more powerful than normal Shinigami, yet they couldn't live to the expectations. Quality of the opposition is a different argument. It could all come down to personal opinions, and I stated mine.

The Vaizards didnt Necesarily Fail, Only Love and Rose Kinda did.. We dont know how Kyouraku would have performed Against Starrk and his wolf pack

And Again, The Rest Of the Vaizards were Killed off By Aizen, We Cant really call them fail coz the rest of the remaining captains got downed by the same guy (xept Yama :D)

What we Expected from the Vaizards Was Unrealistic, By The Time they got there, there wernt enough Enemies To fight

I agree Mashiro Kinda Failed Againt WW, But We Dont know how the story woulda gone if her mask dint break, and she went shikai + bankai!?
And We havent Seen Kensei vs WW fight so we hardly know what really went down

Shinji Wasnt Going down for shiz, untill Toshiro Screwed everything up (i dont blame the kid :( he got mindraped)....
Love And rose the same, they wer preety beat up from fighting starrk, and wer under KS Influence

We shouldnt Have Expected them to do much, coz of KS, But we still expected something from them!

In Real terms non of them Really failed, And We would need better opponents to test theyre skill before judging them

<Lol Mauricio :P >

[Gcat88]

It wasnt a character fail but a plot fail. The author had to choose between developing the Vizards and the Captains. thats why i think there needs to be another arc because there needs to be room for more development, that or make a prequel and show everyones true power!!!

[zerocooldx]

It wasnt a character fail but a plot fail. The author had to choose between developing the Vizards and the Captains. thats why i think there needs to be another arc because there needs to be room for more development, that or make a prequel and show everyones true power!!!

That sums up Bleach in two words.

[kkck]

I still think the main problem the vizards had against the espada was the evolution of their hollowification. The espada were outright infinitely more advanced than the vizards. A resurreccion has shown to provide all the boosts from a shinigami sword release and on top of that an actual increase in physical capacities and reiatsu. In a strong arrancar just resurreccion has shown to be about as powerful or even stronger than a bankai. In comparison bankai just provides more abilities and comes with an increase in reiatsu consumption. The difference in quality of their hollowification seems even more obvious when you consider most of the espada probably weren't even vasto lorde. They were mid level hollows who attained the capacity to fight captains solely through shinigamification.

I don't think the vizards were fail at all, they all did remarkably well in their fights and made a huge difference. Hachi came up with a clever tactic to defeat barragan even if he never actually attacked. Hiyori and liza, being merely former VC, did not drag hitsugaya down at all in their fight against harribel which speaks volumes of hiyori's and liza's strength. Love was the one who forced starrk all out and starrk admitted his cero would not have even work against them due to how strong they were. It is also worth nothing none of them went bankai. kensei fought WW but what happened to him is kind of a mystery right now. I don't think he got defeated though.

[Exodi]

That sums up Bleach in two words.

But Bleach is the best plot fail ever. That's why it's so popular.

And that's why I love it.

[Mauricio Raphael]

I still think the main problem the vizards had against the espada was the evolution of their hollowification. The espada were outright infinitely more advanced than the vizards. A resurreccion has shown to provide all the boosts from a shinigami sword release and on top of that an actual increase in physical capacities and reiatsu. In a strong arrancar just resurreccion has shown to be about as powerful or even stronger than a bankai. In comparison bankai just provides more abilities and comes with an increase in reiatsu consumption. The difference in quality of their hollowification seems even more obvious when you consider most of the espada probably weren't even vasto lorde. They were mid level hollows who attained the capacity to fight captains solely through shinigamification.

However, I think it can be argued at least with the Vizard captains, who we know have bankai, that along with the mask which provides a significant boost in physical attributes puts them on the level of the Espada. But then again, who says they need the masks to battle the likes of the Espada? The captains of the Gotei 13 did fine against them :amuse

Though, I get the point of the level of hybridization. From what Tousen demonstrated in his battle with Komamura and Hisagi, it seems the Vizards haven't (or couldn't) reach that level yet of using a resurreción.

[kkck]

However, I think it can be argued at least with the Vizard captains, who we know have bankai, that along with the mask which provides a significant boost in physical attributes puts them on the level of the Espada. But then again, who says they need the masks to battle the likes of the Espada? The captains of the Gotei 13 did fine against them :amuse

Though, I get the point of the level of hybridization. From what Tousen demonstrated in his battle with Komamura and Hisagi, it seems the Vizards haven't (or couldn't) reach that level yet of using a resurreción.

Well, I did forget to mention love, rose and shinji never went bankai at all. IMHO their bankai should be no less destructive than that of any other captain plus they get the power boost of mask. I do think each of them could have defeated the espada individually had they used bankai though -kensei too but he never fought a espada, just retard boy who is a wildcard-.

[Igniel]

It kind of felt like this entire arc was a huge plot fail for the simple reason that everyone seemed to attempt to defeat Aizen & Co. by doing as little as possible and exerting as little power as possible. If it were a sparring match, I can understand...but when it's life or death it seems a little half-assed.

The only one to go all out to the extent of his ability, at a given time of course, was this past chapter & Yamma. Everyone else half-assed it & paid the consequences with severe injury.

[Mauricio Raphael]

It kind of felt like this entire arc was a huge plot fail for the simple reason that everyone seemed to attempt to defeat Aizen & Co. by doing as little as possible and exerting as little power as possible. If it were a sparring match, I can understand...but when it's life or death it seems a little half-assed.

The only one to go all out to the extent of his ability, at a given time of course, was this past chapter & Yamma. Everyone else half-assed it & paid the consequences with severe injury.

It's understandable: you would think that this being a battle with important matters on the line, the Gotei 13 would have tried harder to defeat but then again when several people are fighting a powerful foe together, their abilities have to be taken in account with other.

With fighters like Komamura and Hitsugaya, whose abilities can encompass a wide area, others have to get out of the way in order to not be affected.

And then, we don't even know the bankais of Love, Rose, Shinji, and Kyouraku so who knows how they would have affected the performance of the others. At least, we can assume Kyouraku's bankai, from what Ukitake implied, is something that shouldn't involve other fighters in the area and going by his shikai, that would seem to hold true. And the same also applies for Shinji.

Also, probably, they were thinking that Aizen also has Bankai so if it happened that they forced him to use bankai, the captains probably wanted to have the option of using their unknown bankais against Aizen's unknown bankai.

From all this, I think that how the captains fought Aizen was probably the best thing they could do: they had numbers against him and with the abilities they all shown up to that point, they definitely had a chance to defeat him or at least weaken him enough so that Yamamoto could have taken care of him :tem

And the reason Yamamoto showed more effort than the rest was because he was the only one out there battling. Sometimes, I think that the captains should have had an one-on-one battle-like roulette against Aizen: have one battle Aizen until they get hit by him and then another comes along immediately. This would have been effectively against when Aizen uses Kyouka Suigetsu as he seems vulnerable after using an illusion.

[freshseth83]

what i think is that even if the fighters go all out and use bankais, aizen still has illusions. what's the use of wasting all that power to hit something you're not sure of? They did that with no avail. We thought Kyoraku and Hitsugaya hit a double team on Aizen, but that was an illusion. He was probably there where momo was waiting for his chance to slice them and use her to set hitsugaya's childish reactions off. It worked. And whatever else Aizen planned worked. Like the last chapter when he KNEW that Yama would have to cover the explosion. That was planned as was the avoiding attacks from Shunsui Shinji Soi-Fon and Toshiro

[Gran Maestro]

A resurreccion has shown to provide all the boosts from a shinigami sword release and on top of that an actual increase in physical capacities and reiatsu. In a strong arrancar just resurreccion has shown to be about as powerful or even stronger than a bankai. In comparison bankai just provides more abilities and comes with an increase in reiatsu consumption.

I don't see much difference between them.

A bankai increases spiritual energy consumption, so does a resurreccion.

A strong arrancar's resurreccion may be stronger than a bankai, a strong shinigami's shikai (let alone bankai) may be stronger than a resurreccion.

Both bankai and resurreccion provide more abilities, if a resurreccion increases physical capacity, the extra abilities it provides are pale compared to a bankai. (Ex: Nnoitra) If a resurreccion (like a bankai) gives good extra abilities, the physical capacity increase is insignificant. (Ex: Zommari)

[kkck]

I don't see much difference between them.

A bankai increases spiritual energy consumption, so does a resurreccion.

A strong arrancar's resurreccion may be stronger than a bankai, a strong shinigami's shikai (let alone bankai) may be stronger than a resurreccion.

Both bankai and resurreccion provide more abilities, if a resurreccion increases physical capacity, the extra abilities it provides are pale compared to a bankai. (Ex: Nnoitra) If a resurreccion (like a bankai) gives good extra abilities, the physical capacity increase is insignificant. (Ex: Zommari)

Well, obviously there are similarities given that resurreccion is a power based on shinigami's sword release. I do think resurreccion actually increases reiatsu, not just the consumption of it. IMHO it is the increase in reiatsu which makes resurrecion particularly dangerous since the ability it comes along with already are boosted by it along with physical capacities. Obviously different arrancan get boosts in different areas. I don't think there really is a tradeoff between abilities and physical capacities though. Take harribel, she had great water based abilities and her physical capacities after resurreccion were enough to make him not even consider getting close to her on his own. Grimmjow got a great physical boost and also a number of fairly powerful abilities -desgarron and the elbow missile-. Starrk was implied to also get a significant increase in physical capacities and he still gained an ability as haxed as intangible soul bombs. At least I would not put it in the way you describe it, instead of resurreccion trading between physical abilities and powers I would say the power of some resurreccion is the increase in physical capacities -comparable to what ikkaku's bankai does-.
[hr]

what i think is that even if the fighters go all out and use bankais, aizen still has illusions. what's the use of wasting all that power to hit something you're not sure of? They did that with no avail. We thought Kyoraku and Hitsugaya hit a double team on Aizen, but that was an illusion. He was probably there where momo was waiting for his chance to slice them and use her to set hitsugaya's childish reactions off. It worked. And whatever else Aizen planned worked. Like the last chapter when he KNEW that Yama would have to cover the explosion. That was planned as was the avoiding attacks from Shunsui Shinji Soi-Fon and Toshiro

My impression was that the reason they did not use bankai against aizen was mostly in order to avoid getting others caught up in their attacks. For instance hitsugaya can use his bankai and at considerably reduced capacity but if he does go all out then not getting others caught in the middle of it is extremely hard. Shunsui's bankai is supposed to be more powerful than hitsugaya's at full capacity and the remaining vizard ones are most likely as brutal as any other captain bankai without even using mask. Basically, if they used bankai against aizen then teamwork was impossible simply because they would have been caught up in each others attacks.

[poobert]

Hiyori and liza, being merely former VC, did not drag hitsugaya down at all in their fight against harribel which speaks volumes of hiyori's and liza's strength.

I think this is pretty important in showing their strength. Along with Mashiro, these three should be at VC level, but with their masks they are boosted to captain level. Mashiro took down fura, which no vc can hope to do, and Hiyori and Lisa fought Halibel, while the other vc's were beaten by her fraccion and their pet. Note the absolutely huge, huge, huge, huge difference in power level of an espada and their fraccion. Another thing to note is that these vizard vc were holding their own against a character stronger than Uliquora.

With the captain Vizard... well Shinji didn't use his mask and the rest.... we can only compare to Shunsui and Uki, who make the rest of the captains look like VC's.

[kkck]

I think this is pretty important in showing their strength. Along with Mashiro, these three should be at VC level, but with their masks they are boosted to captain level. Mashiro took down fura, which no vc can hope to do, and Hiyori and Lisa fought Halibel, while the other vc's were beaten by her fraccion and their pet. Note the absolutely huge, huge, huge, huge difference in power level of an espada and their fraccion. Another thing to note is that these vizard vc were holding their own against a character stronger than Uliquora.

With the captain Vizard... well Shinji didn't use his mask and the rest.... we can only compare to Shunsui and Uki, who make the rest of the captains look like VC's.

Strangely, the impression I get from this is that the boost the stronger captains got from their own hollowification is actually weaker than then one the former VCs get. I mean, the former VCs get with mask the physical capacities of a captain or at the very least they are comparable, how is it that the former captains had that much troublea against starrk. Perhaps hiyori and liza are far above the VC level as a whole even without their masks -liza fought alonside the former captains 100 years ago with no trouble at least- which would explain why they get can match apparently match captains with their masks. Basically their mask boost is not that strong but in turn their base strength is a lot more than even the stronger VCs.

[BaddAzzKenpachi74]

Strangely, the impression I get from this is that the boost the stronger captains got from their own hollowification is actually weaker than then one the former VCs get. I mean, the former VCs get with mask the physical capacities of a captain or at the very least they are comparable, how is it that the former captains had that much troublea against starrk. Perhaps hiyori and liza are far above the VC level as a whole even without their masks -liza fought alonside the former captains 100 years ago with no trouble at least- which would explain why they get can match apparently match captains with their masks. Basically their mask boost is not that strong but in turn their base strength is a lot more than even the stronger VCs.
how they have trouble with stark?
he WAS the number 1 espada for a reason dude.
and not to mention his UNSTOPABLE "yes unstopable" wolves.
face it those wolves were invincible and very fast and NOTHING could kill them.
Love Smashed them to pieces and Love exploded them and yet the wolves STILL reformed.
and the explossion they caused was 2x as tall as the large buildings in FKT wich means they hold ALOT of power.
come on dude who wouldn't get owned by around 30 invincible wolves besides the illusion trickster master Aizen and CC Yama

[Bromamura]

The Vaizards didnt Necesarily Fail, Only Love and Rose Kinda did..
I wouldn't really call being overhelmed in mask and shikai by the strongest tech of the strongest Espada fail either. In fact I was quite impressed until they had to come up against Aizen, and Kubo made their defeats...well embarrasing. Love getting tangled up in Rose's shikai that was stolen from him by Aizen just made me cringe, they could've at least gone out in a more spectacular fashion.

[En Yang Ji]

It seems like there are levels to the hollow masks power. The vizards masks and Ichigo's previous masks all seem to be on a low level. The boost they get doesn't seem that high. I wouldn't be surprised if the power increase they get from their mask is on the same level as natural arrancur.

,Also, they can only remain vizards for a short amount of time, because of their time limits. Most of them are limited to using their mask for a couple attacks or for a quick defense.

Tousen's mask and Ichigo's current mask seem different. Tousen's mask seems to be on a higher level for a couple reasons:


- his mask extends all the way to his midsection
- he has high speed regeneration
- he seems like he gets good deal more power from his mask
- he has a long time limit

Ichigo on the other hand, seems to only get a extremely huge power increase. He might also has high speed regeneration and just hasn't got a chance to use it.

There is a big difference between the vizards masks and Tousens and Ichigos .

[poobert]

Well, Uruhara did everything he could to try to revert the vizards back to being shinigami, so on the scale of things, they should be way over to the least hollofied side. Ichigo's mask has been evolving, and I am going to assume that his first mask, with 1 stripe (or was it 2?) is the mask that the vizard have.

Relatively speaking, the vizard have the weakest boost, perhaps like grand fisher or the other failed arrancar.

The interesting vizard is Hacchi. His mask seemed to give him a whole new area of spells, and not just cero's. It didn't seem to boost his kido, just added a hollow type power to them, letting him do all sorts of new things.

I also agree that the vc's may have just improved their base skill, but I think that the captains should have done too.

In a hundred years, Hitsu the genius, may out class Shunsui. If the vizard captain were around Hitsu level or less before, then after a hundred years, their growth would be slightly less than hitsu the genius, making them still slightly weaker than Shunsui, which matches perfectly with what we saw. Their masks gave them constitutions that were much greater than Shunsui. Shun got ko'ed (partially) by one cero. The cero's didn't even phase Love. Not to mention their raw power was greater than anything Shunsui demonstrated. Exactly the same type of boost that Ichigo's mask gives him. Raw power and higher defence.

[BaddAzzKenpachi74]

Well, Uruhara did everything he could to try to revert the vizards back to being shinigami, so on the scale of things, they should be way over to the least hollofied side. Ichigo's mask has been evolving, and I am going to assume that his first mask, with 1 stripe (or was it 2?) is the mask that the vizard have.

Relatively speaking, the vizard have the weakest boost, perhaps like grand fisher or the other failed arrancar.

The interesting vizard is Hacchi. His mask seemed to give him a whole new area of spells, and not just cero's. It didn't seem to boost his kido, just added a hollow type power to them, letting him do all sorts of new things.

I also agree that the vc's may have just improved their base skill, but I think that the captains should have done too.

In a hundred years, Hitsu the genius, may out class Shunsui. If the vizard captain were around Hitsu level or less before, then after a hundred years, their growth would be slightly less than hitsu the genius, making them still slightly weaker than Shunsui, which matches perfectly with what we saw. Their masks gave them constitutions that were much greater than Shunsui. Shun got ko'ed (partially) by one cero. The cero's didn't even phase Love. Not to mention their raw power was greater than anything Shunsui demonstrated. Exactly the same type of boost that Ichigo's mask gives him. Raw power and higher defence.
KOed?:blink
wuts with people saying that?
Shunsui was FAR from Koed.
infact he wasn't even hurt. he was PERFECTLY FINE when Lisa came and even got the shit kicked outta him.
he wasn't hurt or KOed at all.
and so wut if Love didn't get hurt by Starks ceros.
he never got HIT by them last time i checked since he shikai was so big he can block them.
it shows nothing for his strength by just haveing a big shikai that can block attacks so wuts your point?
last time i checked Love wen't all out useing his shikais most powerfull attack+mask and Stark was COMPLETELY unfazed.
while we all know wut Shunsu's shikai did to stark:amuse

[poobert]

It is not as if Shunsui brushed the cero off. He was hit square and fell. Even Yama feared for Shunsui, which is saying a huge deal.

And my point is, Loves attack was far stronger than anything we saw from Shunsui. There is a huge difference between raw power and just stabbing someone. May I remind you of how Tousen died?

IMHO the 2 vizard captains, while not as skilled or overall as strong as shunsui, had higher defences and more raw power and I think it is pretty clearly shown.

[BaddAzzKenpachi74]

It is not as if Shunsui brushed the cero off. He was hit square and fell. Even Yama feared for Shunsui, which is saying a huge deal.

And my point is, Loves attack was far stronger than anything we saw from Shunsui. There is a huge difference between raw power and just stabbing someone. May I remind you of how Tousen died?

IMHO the 2 vizard captains, while not as skilled or overall as strong as shunsui, had higher defences and more raw power and I think it is pretty clearly shown.
in my opinion its "clearly" shown that Shunsui only fell and layed there because he was playing possum.
he wanted to catch Stark in his shadow game and to do that he had to fake like he was hurt "even tho he clearly wasn't"
and wut is your definition of "brushing off"?
last i checked Shunsui got kicked by Lisa and was smilling and talking like he was perfectly fine.
in my opinion he most certainly did brush of that cero like it was nothing

[En Yang Ji]

Even if Shunsui wasn't hurt from Starks cero, what the vizards showed was more impressive. Rose was hit by 2 wolves at the same time, while wearing his mask, and was completely fine. Afterwards he was hit by the wolves when he wasn't wearing a mask and he was still fine. The wolves are already stronger than a cero and they were hit by several at the same time .

- Starrk probably wasn't even hit by Rose's attack. He's fast enough to dodge it. If Starrk was hit by it, it doesn't prove much. It's not like Rose couldn't kill Starrk by stabbing him.

[BaddAzzKenpachi74]

Even if Shunsui wasn't hurt from Starks cero, what the vizards showed was more impressive. Rose was hit by 2 wolves at the same time, while wearing his mask, and was completely fine. Afterwards he was hit by the wolves when he wasn't wearing a mask and he was still fine. The wolves are already stronger than a cero and they were hit by several at the same time .

- Starrk probably wasn't even hit by Rose's attack. He's fast enough to dodge it. If Starrk was hit by it, it doesn't prove much. It's not like Rose couldn't kill Starrk by stabbing him.
they were fine?
they were spitting up blood how the hell is that "perfectly" fine?
look
http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/373/17/
and the next page after that.
thier brused and spitting up blood how in the world is that fine?
oh and ps it was SHUNSUI who killed Stark with his shikai while the other 2 with mask and shikai got owned.:p

[En Yang Ji]

they were fine?
they were spitting up blood how the hell is that "perfectly" fine?
look
http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/373/17/
and the next page after that.
thier brused and spitting up blood how in the world is that fine?
oh and ps it was SHUNSUI who killed Stark with his shikai while the other 2 with mask and shikai got owned.:p

He spit up a little blood and a had few bruises, but he wasn't hurt that badly. Shunsui fell from a weaker attack and also came back with a few bruises. Rose was hit by a stronger attack several times and was fine. He dismissed Starrk death threat even after being hit by Starrk's attack twice.

Shunsui win was conditional. IMO if they were to fight 10 times, with Shunsui only using shikai, Starrk would win the majority. Shunsui that he needed more than his shikai to beat Starrk and would have used if it wasn't for Ukitake.

[hakuthehedgehog]

Shunsui only beat Stark because he had the time to get his Shikai ability working.
Also, Stark never used his wolves against Shunsui, we don't know how it could affect him.
However, Shunsui didn't use Bankai, but then again neither did Love and Rose.
I agree that Rose and Love's perfoncance in terms of Raw power was more impressive than Shunsui though.

[En Yang Ji]

your in denial lol.
you honestly think the Vizards are superior to Shunsui and its freaken laughable lol.
even poobert isn't that naive.
all he was trying to prove was that there strong but your bringing up points with no basis trying to make it look like they are better then Shunsui.
lets look at the manga FACTS and throw away assumptions.
FACT1.Love admitted that if those wolves were to explode they would be in BIG trouble.
FACT2.he was spitting up blood and clothes torn and brused.
no matter wut u say its FACT that he was hurt unless Kubo makes them state that their 100% fine your making a assumption.
FACT3.Shunsui is better because he beat the better oponent deal with it:p
I don't think their stronger than Shunsui, I actually think Shunsui's stronger overall. I just don't think he can take as much damage. Assuming Rose was hurt, it doesn't prove anythi, since he was hit by a stronger attack several times. Shunsui was impressive, but I think your overestimating him.
[hr]
Starrk had a good chance of beating Shunsui.

[Gran Maestro]

If Stark had a good chance of beating Shunsui, he wouldn't lose to Shunsui's shikai. Love & Rose (with shikai) lost to Stark but Shunsui (with shikai) defeated Stark. It's not very complicated, is it?

[En Yang Ji]

If Stark had a good chance of beating Shunsui, he wouldn't lose to Shunsui's shikai. Love & Rose (with shikai) lost to Stark but Shunsui (with shikai) defeated Stark. It's not very complicated, is it?

If 2 fighters of a similar level fought 10 times each would win around 5 times. That's how I feel about Starrk and Shunsui. Even though Shunsui won it doesn't mean he would every time. Who would win the most is dependant on circumstances.

Ukitake and Shunsui could barely hold Starrk off. Neither could afford to take a hit from 1000 ceros. Also Starrk never used his wolves against them.

[Gran Maestro]

If 2 fighters of a similar level fought 10 times each would win around 5 times. That's how I feel about Starrk and Shunsui. Even though Shunsui won it doesn't mean he would every time. Who would win the most is dependant on circumstances.

If you argue that Stark was on par with Shunsui shikai (5 wins each), then try to imagine what Shunsui's bankai would do to Stark.


Ukitake and Shunsui could barely hold Starrk off. Neither could afford to take a hit from 1000 ceros. Also Starrk never used his wolves against them.

We never saw what Ukitake would do against 1000 ceros. And once Shunsui started to play games, Stark's wolves were rendered useless because Stark could only do damage according to rules of the games.

[En Yang Ji]

If you argue that Stark was on par with Shunsui shikai (5 wins each), then try to imagine what Shunsui's bankai would do to Stark.



We never saw what Ukitake would do against 1000 ceros. And once Shunsui started to play games, Stark's wolves were rendered useless because Stark could only do damage according to rules of the games.

- I think Shunsui with bankai is probably stronger too, I was arguing about his strength with shikai.

- The problem with Shunsui relying on his games, is he doesn't get to choose which he plays. Regarding Ukitake and Starrk s 1000 ceros, the only thing we have to go on is Starrks speculation.

[Gran Maestro]

- The problem with Shunsui relying on his games, is he doesn't get to choose which he plays.

IMO this is a common misconception. Shunsui never said "KS chooses the game", he said "KS decides the rules (not the game)". Shunsui chooses the game but he can't change the rules of the game.

http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/374/06/

[kkck]

The first little thing here is that wolves were definitely a lot stronger than cero.
http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/373/16/


Also this
http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/373/17/

They took god knows how many wolves -probably as much as initially shown- and they still were able to stand which IMHO speaks wonders of their strength.

It is not fair to compare "a mere cero" -as starrk called them- to his apparently most powerful move. For all we know shunsui would have taken at least as much damage as the vizards.

Even then, each of those things was intangible meaning love and rose's arsenal wasn't really appropriate to deal with them. Shunsui never had to deal with that, he caught starrk of guard with his game and stick to a close range game where starrk could not use wolves due to what would seem lack of time and the fact he would have also been caught up in the explosion with shunsui being so close. The game itself also seemed to play a part, perhaps shunsui specifically took his time in order for it to come up.

On another note, neither rose nor love ever used bankai against starrk. I would think their respective bankai are about as brutal as that of any other gotei 13 captain but they could further boost it with a mask. Starrk being stronger than them is not a definite thing, for all we know both of them could have defeated starrk if they went to such an extreme. I know shunsui didn't go bankai which speaks wonders of him but it is worth considering he did take full advantage of the vizards fighting.

On a separate note, I do think love and rose posses comparable or even greater speed and strength to shunsui or starrk when their masks are on, I don't think such a thing can be taken lightly.

[Gran Maestro]

he caught starrk of guard with his game and stick to a close range game where starrk could not use wolves due to what would seem lack of time and the fact he would have also been caught up in the explosion with shunsui being so close.

Well, we know that Stark could keep his distance against Shunsui and use his cero guns at the same time:

http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/362/07/

http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/362/08/

http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/362/10/

And I think Shunsui simply gave more than enough time to Stark to do whatever he wishes when he asked Stark (http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/374/12/) to choose a color. IMO Stark was fast enough to create an opening to effectively use the wolves but in a worst case scenario Stark should have used the cero guns if he was indeed able to.

[kkck]

IMO this is a common misconception. Shunsui never said "KS chooses the game", he said "KS decides the rules (not the game)". Shunsui chooses the game but he can't change the rules of the game.

http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/374/06/

What is the difference between choosing the games and choosing the rules? I mean, there is no point in shunsui choosing the game but KK putting the rules of takaoni on it. The rules of a game are what traditionally define it so under that principle KK would determine whether the game has turns, how much damage is dealt and what has to be done to do damage. Also, this part makes it clear shunsui does not chose the game.
http://www.mangatoshokan.com/read/Bleach/1/374/7
If shunsui could chose the game regardless of the mood of his sword the mood of it would not be important. The alternative is that shunsui can chose kageone but KK can give it the rules of busho umma which makes no sense at all.

[Gran Maestro]

What is the difference between choosing the games and choosing the rules? I mean, there is no point in shunsui choosing the game but KK putting the rules of takaoni on it. The rules of a game are what traditionally define it so under that principle KK would determine whether the game has turns, how much damage is dealt and what has to be done to do damage.

Simple, Shunsui chooses Takaoni, they play Takaoni and Shunsui is also forced to play by rules of Takaoni. Takaoni is one of the games from KK's arsenal (Shunsui doesn't design these games) and KK also decides the rules of the games it created, Shunsui only plays them.


Also, this part makes it clear shunsui does not chose the game.
http://www.mangatoshokan.com/read/Bleach/1/374/7
If shunsui could chose the game regardless of the mood of his sword the mood of it would not be important. The alternative is that shunsui can chose kageone but KK can give it the rules of busho umma which makes no sense at all.

The mood of the sword is very important because if the sword is not in the right mood, Shunsui can't play any games (even if he tries to) because Shunsui's sword doesn't enforce any rules.

[kkck]

Simple, Shunsui chooses Takaoni, they play Takaoni and Shunsui is also forced to play by rules of Takaoni. Takaoni is one of the games from KK's arsenal (Shunsui doesn't design these games) and KK also decides the rules of the games it created, Shunsui only plays them.



The mood of the sword is very important because if the sword is not in the right mood, Shunsui can't play any games (even if he tries to) because Shunsui's sword doesn't enforce any rules.

I don't think your interpretation of what shunsui said makes sense in any plausible way. It makes a lot more sense that the sword chooses the game and shunsui chooses to activate it or not and play it along with being subjected to its rules. Everything about the fight would indicate shunsui does not chose the games, he just chose to unseal the sword.

[Xerneas]

Guys does it really matter? All that matters is that Starrk didn't do serious damage to anybody. Shunsui/Love/Rose. NONE OF THEM. The latter even had time to strike a pose against Aizen before he got put in his place. Yeah, Starrk sure tore him up good. :eyeroll

No matter how much his fans try to sugarcoat it, the bottom line is that Starrk was a massive failure, just like the rest of the Espada. The only Arrancar who actually achieved anything noteworthy was WW. Hopefully Yammy will show why Kubo has kept him alive for so blasted long.

[freshseth83]

shunsui has two swords, those two swords have different games. one sword may have the shadow game and the other may have the color game. Bushogoma is the lazy spinning top game which he first used against stark, that was the tornado that surrounded him. After that he goes to say takaoni the cliff demon- or whoever is higher up wins. But stark shoots the cero. http://www.mangatoshokan.com/read/Bleach/1/362/11 and to those who think that Stark might have won had he shown his release look here http://www.mangatoshokan.com/read/Bleach/1/362/14 - so it seems as if Shunsui already knew his guns were capable of more. I think If he could have activated those games he first used, then he might not have had the chance to activate the other games at that time. Sorta like his sword was getting warmed up. However, if you think that he was hurt take a closer look at the pictures in the pages i gave links to. A clear indication that stark hit him with a cero at close range before the one to the back. The sleeve on his left arm looks singed or burnt- from starks cero. If shunsui wasn't strong he would be missing an arm- or there would be a hole in his back. But what happened? There wasn't even a scratch on him- he was laying face down in the dirt and Lisa stomped him into the pavement, that's what gave his face the scratched look. Not stark's cero, which hit him in the back.

Use some logic here with me, Ukitake and Shunsui have been captains for at least 200-300 years. No one else besides Unohana and Yama have been in that position for that long. Captain strength doesn't mean all the captains are the same strength or same level in power. I think it's a gauge just to show where a shinigami is in terms of power. VC level, or Captain level, or just a seated level. The TBTP arc Ukitake is talking to Kaien Shiba and Ukitake states he wants him to be his VC. Afterwards he wants Kaien to look into Captain position. Kaien says there are others at captain level more deserving. http://www.mangatoshokan.com/read/Bleach/1/-105/17. I guess what I'm saying is that someone can be at captain level but no where near what the captains are.

[Exodi]

I don't think your interpretation of what shunsui said makes sense in any plausible way. It makes a lot more sense that the sword chooses the game and shunsui chooses to activate it or not and play it along with being subjected to its rules. Everything about the fight would indicate shunsui does not chose the games, he just chose to unseal the sword.

It's not that hard to understand.

Katen Kyokotsu has several games.
Shunsui can pick whichever game he wants to play.
The rules of whatever game Shunsui picks are (were) decided by Katen Kyokotsu. Shunsui can't change them.

It's plausible to think that Shunsui does have say in which game he gets to play, as he was able to attack from Aizen's shadow (on the ice) in a moment's notice. He used Takaoni and Kageoni against Starrk when he felt like it.

http://www.mangatoshokan.com/read/Bleach/1/374/7
This page says to me that while Shunsui can choose whatever game he wants to play, Katen Kyokotsu has to want to play it, too.

[poopoomaru]

Honestly I think that Starrk losing is because he, like the rest of the Espada, isn't as intelligent of a fighter as the Shinigami Captains are. Were they more powerful? I would certainly say so, nothing Shunsui, Love, Rose, or Hachi could even compare to the kind of raw power the Espada had. The Top 2 Espada were brought down not because of their lack of power, but their incredibly unintelligent decision making when it comes to fighting. Starrk was very intelligent in a general sense, but not when it came to fighting.

Starrk never really went for a killing blow, nor did he follow up any of his significant attacks to the extent he should have. When he first releases, he decides to mess around with Lilynette and take his eyes off of Shunsui. When Ukitake revealed his powers, Starrk willingly played along and did exactly as Ukitake wanted him to. He shot Shunsui and then forgot about him.When he fought against Love, he willingly took a blow and then just laid there with no will to fight. He bombarded Love and Rose only twice with his wolves, and then gave them the opportunity to run away instead of killing them.

And here I know this part is controversial. But he willingly played along with Shunsui's color game and made no attempt to revert back to long range combat even when it was obvious that that was where he had the advantage. Then, against a maneuver which he was completely able to dodge once, he day dreamed about his past and let himself be taken by surprise and killed.

Here's the first time where he easily dodged Shunsui's cover and slash tactics.

http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/362/07/
http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/362/08/

And here's where he gets taken out by the exact same maneuver.

http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/374/17/
http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/374/18/
http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/374/19/

Barragan had many chances to just kill Soifon, instead he just played around with her. Even when Hachi appeared, he waits to see what Hachi has planned before he decides to attack, and then even when he catches Hachi in his attack he only touches a single bit of his hand when he could have easily infected his whole body. Thus leading to his demise.

The Captains are frankly just better fighters, power aside.

Edit: Though I honestly think its worth mentioning that the fact that Starrk's cero's were simply able to be disregarded by Love's Shikai is BS. If they were that easy to block then Shunsui wouldn't have needed to even dodge them. It screams of Kubo just wanting to get Starrk's fight over with.

[freshseth83]

wehn shunsui fought against stark most of the beginning it was shunsui in sealed sword state. neither wanted to get serious. even shunsui knew he was hiding an ability with his guns and said he knew stark was lying when he told him his guns didn't fire anything besides ceros. If Stark wasn't so smart in battle he wouldn't have gauged Shunsui and Ukitake's abilities. The reason he woudln't put effort into beating Rose and Love at first was because Aizen had no reason for him. He knew this when he didn't grieve for Barragan when he was killed. Only Lillinette could convince Stark to actually release. Once he did only Shunsui could take him down. Swinging aimlessly and hoping to take out an opponent that was much faster and skilled was a shot in the air. That's what Love and Rose were. Shot's in the air. Shunsui took out Stark because of his skills in battle and his patience and cunning. Plus the power of his Shikai.

One last thing i wanted to say- you stated this;
"And here I know this part is controversial. But he willingly played along with Shunsui's color game and made no attempt to revert back to long range combat even when it was obvious that that was where he had the advantage. Then, against a maneuver which he was completely able to dodge once, he day dreamed about his past and let himself be taken by surprise and killed."
He didn't willingly play his game, he had NO CHOICE. Even Shunsui said this, Once you are in the spiritual pressure of his swords you have no choice but to play the game. In other words it took away all his abilities. Sounds crazy but that's exactly what the Manga states.

[poopoomaru]

wehn shunsui fought against stark most of the beginning it was shunsui in sealed sword state. neither wanted to get serious. even shunsui knew he was hiding an ability with his guns and said he knew stark was lying when he told him his guns didn't fire anything besides ceros. If Stark wasn't so smart in battle he wouldn't have gauged Shunsui and Ukitake's abilities. The reason he woudln't put effort into beating Rose and Love at first was because Aizen had no reason for him. He knew this when he didn't grieve for Barragan when he was killed. Only Lillinette could convince Stark to actually release. Once he did only Shunsui could take him down. Swinging aimlessly and hoping to take out an opponent that was much faster and skilled was a shot in the air. That's what Love and Rose were. Shot's in the air. Shunsui took out Stark because of his skills in battle and his patience and cunning. Plus the power of his Shikai.

One last thing i wanted to say- you stated this;
"And here I know this part is controversial. But he willingly played along with Shunsui's color game and made no attempt to revert back to long range combat even when it was obvious that that was where he had the advantage. Then, against a maneuver which he was completely able to dodge once, he day dreamed about his past and let himself be taken by surprise and killed."
He didn't willingly play his game, he had NO CHOICE. Even Shunsui said this, Once you are in the spiritual pressure of his swords you have no choice but to play the game. In other words it took away all his abilities. Sounds crazy but that's exactly what the Manga states.

You should focus more on this one particular point, Starrk made no attempt to defy the rules of this game. He didn't even know Irooni existed when he summoned his swords. They were summoned before Shunsui wanted to play Irooni.

[freshseth83]

whether or not he tried to defy the rules, he played by them. Obviously Love and Rose realized who it was when they seen the sword through starks back and didn't attempt to help Shunsui. That along with the words of Shunsui stating that you are FORCED to play by it's rules are reason enough to believe that's true. I doubt Stark would have played his game if he didn't need to. That's why we see him draw a sword in the form of some type of energy. Maybe Kido but he doesn't know Kido. So I guess maybe his sword was made up of some other type of energy. Maybe the same that makes a cero from his gun? On top of it all, even in one of the translations it state that even if he tries to cut him it will do nothing unless he calls out a color during Irooni. http://www.mangatoshokan.com/read/Bleach/1/374/14

[Gran Maestro]

I don't think your interpretation of what shunsui said makes sense in any plausible way. It makes a lot more sense that the sword chooses the game and shunsui chooses to activate it or not and play it along with being subjected to its rules. Everything about the fight would indicate shunsui does not chose the games, he just chose to unseal the sword.

Well, the attack they planned against fake Aizen kinda proves that Shunsui chooses the games. Just after Hitsugaya froze Aizen's arm, Shunsui immediately used the shadow game to attack Aizen. If the sword is choosing the game, then the sword is choosing the exact same game Shunsui would choose in a given situation, so in that sense "sword chooses the game" doesn't make any more sense than "sword chooses the game what Shunsui wants, therefore Shunsui chooses the game" argument.

Another evidence that my interpretation is more plausible: Shunsui said that his sword was not in the mood after he stabbed Stark. If what Shunsui meant was that his sword was not in the mood to play Kageoni, then Shunsui must have been kidding us because they wouldn't be able to play Kageoni above the ground anyway, there would be no difference between being in the mood and not being in the mood.

I explained the inconsistencies in your interpretation but I don't see any counter-argument that explains why my arguments are not plausible. Shunsui thought he would need bankai against Stark but later he took on Stark with his shikai, so either some games really suck or Shunsui was not playing games at all. Of course why Stark forgot to use his perfectly working ceros stands as a big question in your arguments.

[kkck]

Well, the attack they planned against fake Aizen kinda proves that Shunsui chooses the games. Just after Hitsugaya froze Aizen's arm, Shunsui immediately used the shadow game to attack Aizen. If the sword is choosing the game, then the sword is choosing the exact same game Shunsui would choose in a given situation, so in that sense "sword chooses the game" doesn't make any more sense than "sword chooses the game what Shunsui wants, therefore Shunsui chooses the game" argument.

Another evidence that my interpretation is more plausible: Shunsui said that his sword was not in the mood after he stabbed Stark. If what Shunsui meant was that his sword was not in the mood to play Kageoni, then Shunsui must have been kidding us because they wouldn't be able to play Kageoni above the ground anyway, there would be no difference between being in the mood and not being in the mood.

I explained the inconsistencies in your interpretation but I don't see any counter-argument that explains why my arguments are not plausible. Shunsui thought he would need bankai against Stark but later he took on Stark with his shikai, so either some games really suck or Shunsui was not playing games at all. Of course why Stark forgot to use his perfectly working ceros stands as a big question in your arguments.

I don't think the shadow game proves anything in that moment. Wouldn't any game have worked under the condition that it is shunsui's turn? I don't think the shadow game was necessarily shunsui's choice, it was simply the one that came up. Why not chose the color game against aizen in this scenario, we know shunsui can deal quite some more damage with it than with the shadow game.

Starrk asked why shunsui held back such a trick and he answered he didn't, his sword simply wasn't in the mood. Before that, he simply could not use kageoni because KK was not in the mood. Now, I would think the technicality of being too high in the air is a different matter. If it is KK who chooses the games, she probably does not care whether an actual rule can be enforced at a given moment, how a player takes advantage of the rules is his problem.

Not sure what the inconsistencies in the traditional interpretation are -you say you explained them but I did not find such a thing up to the first of the posts I quoted from you-. While your interpretation is plausible -it is merely a different way to read the whole thing-, I find it unnecessarily complicated and awkward mostly. I don't think the idea that shunsui's zampakuto can chose to work or not at any given point can be supported though.

[Gran Maestro]

I don't think the shadow game proves anything in that moment. Wouldn't any game have worked under the condition that it is shunsui's turn? I don't think the shadow game was necessarily shunsui's choice, it was simply the one that came up. Why not chose the color game against aizen in this scenario, we know shunsui can deal quite some more damage with it than with the shadow game.

Starrk asked why shunsui held back such a trick and he answered he didn't, his sword simply wasn't in the mood. Before that, he simply could not use kageoni because KK was not in the mood. Now, I would think the technicality of being too high in the air is a different matter. If it is KK who chooses the games, she probably does not care whether an actual rule can be enforced at a given moment, how a player takes advantage of the rules is his problem.

Not sure what the inconsistencies in the traditional interpretation are -you say you explained them but I did not find such a thing up to the first of the posts I quoted from you-. While your interpretation is plausible -it is merely a different way to read the whole thing-, I find it unnecessarily complicated and awkward mostly. I don't think the idea that shunsui's zampakuto can chose to work or not at any given point can be supported though.

I don't think my interpretation is too complicated: If sword is in the mood, Shunsui can play any game he wants, if sword is not in the mood, Shunsui can't play anything. That's it. :)

Against Aizen, shadow game was the best choice because it would be very risky to attack Aizen directly in a color game. If you want to do considerable damage, you have to take the risk of getting considerable damage.

And I don't get people's point about Kageoni. Shunsui wouldn't be able to take advantage of Kageoni even if he wanted to because they were fighting above ground. No, obviously Shunsui's complaint about sword's mood was not relevant to Kageoni which was useless up to that point anyway, it was about something else.

Every shinigami can use his zanpakuto's abilities at will, I don't understand why it poses a problem when it comes to KK. It would be stupid if Ichigo did randomly fire GT or Aizen did create random illusions. KK already has a mood problem, there's no point in overdoing KK's cons.

[Lunatic Scream]

I don't think my interpretation is too complicated: If sword is in the mood, Shunsui can play any game he wants, if sword is not in the mood, Shunsui can't play anything. That's it. :)

Against Aizen, shadow game was the best choice because it would be very risky to attack Aizen directly in a color game. If you want to do considerable damage, you have to take the risk of getting considerable damage.

And I don't get people's point about Kageoni. Shunsui wouldn't be able to take advantage of Kageoni even if he wanted to because they were fighting above ground. No, obviously Shunsui's complaint about sword's mood was not relevant to Kageoni which was useless up to that point anyway, it was about something else.

Every shinigami can use his zanpakuto's abilities at will, I don't understand why it poses a problem when it comes to KK. It would be stupid if Ichigo did randomly fire GT or Aizen did create random illusions. KK already has a mood problem, there's no point in overdoing KK's cons.

Shunsui was able to use a couple other games when KK wasn't in the mood, so I'm actually thinking it's a mix of both. I disagree with gh0un in that I don't think KK is what dictates precisely the move that Shunsui can use. Early on in the fight with Stark he uses Bushogoma and Takaoni despite KK not being "in the mood"... so he's also clearly not prevented from using ANY abilities. It's probably more that KK has to be in the mood for any specific game, but if she is then Shunsui can choose to use it at his own discretion. Basically it seems to me like he needs KK's mood as "permission" to use her abilities...

I guess tldr; in order to use the more powerful of KK's abilities (Kageoni, Irooni) she needs to be in the mood. Basically her willingness to comply is proportional with the level of her power Shunsui can use. The poor guy really is dragged around by his Zanpakuto. :(

[poobert]

Shunsui's zanpakto treats fights like a game, but I think it still wants to win. It wants to beat the enemies Shunsui wants to beat. Exactly like Zangetsu wanted Ichigo to win and Zabimaru wanted to beat Zangetsu up to the point that Renji changed his target.

When he was fighting Stark, initially Shunsui himself didn't really want to fight, so the sword just wasn't in the mood. Then he got in a pickle and the sword decided to fight. It let shunsui do everything it could at the perfect time to do it.

If you look at the training that Hitsu made matsumoto and some of the other characters do, the reason why they couldn't go meditate properly was that their zanpakto had character flaws, but the characters themselves didn't attribute those to themselves. (it was during the arc that they were on earth)

Shunsui's zan is therefore exactly like him, character wise. When his heart isn't in it, his zanpakto isn't in the mood. Shunsui blamed his zanpakto, but he probably knew the real reason was that he himself just didn't want to fight Starrk that bad. However, when it comes to a fight that Shunsui needs to win, his zanpakto is as sneaky and back stabbing as he is. The second his enemy touches a shadow, it will start the shadow game, the second he is higher, it will play the height game.

The Zanpakto chooses the game to be played at the specific time (like the manga says), but as the zanpakto has the same goals and soul as shunsui, it shares the same battle strategy and they both work in perfect partnership, otherwise he would never have gotten bankai.

I don't think it has a mood problem. I think Shunsui has a mood problem. It is just reflected in his sword. I also think the sword chooses the games, but it takes in to account what Shunsui needs and wants to do to win, which is a result of the perfect sync he and most captains have with their zan.

[Gran Maestro]

Early on in the fight with Stark he uses Bushogoma and Takaoni despite KK not being "in the mood"... so he's also clearly not prevented from using ANY abilities.

Every game enforces different rules, for example color game forbids you from cutting certain colors. But if the sword is not in the mood, even if Shunsui attempts to play the color game, his opponent can cut any color as usual. So although it seems so, I don't think they played Bushogoma or Takaoni, Shunsui tried to play them but the sword refused to comply and Stark attacked Shunsui without getting affected by any rules. This is how I see the situation. :)

[kkck]

I don't think my interpretation is too complicated: If sword is in the mood, Shunsui can play any game he wants, if sword is not in the mood, Shunsui can't play anything. That's it. :)

Against Aizen, shadow game was the best choice because it would be very risky to attack Aizen directly in a color game. If you want to do considerable damage, you have to take the risk of getting considerable damage.

And I don't get people's point about Kageoni. Shunsui wouldn't be able to take advantage of Kageoni even if he wanted to because they were fighting above ground. No, obviously Shunsui's complaint about sword's mood was not relevant to Kageoni which was useless up to that point anyway, it was about something else.

Every shinigami can use his zanpakuto's abilities at will, I don't understand why it poses a problem when it comes to KK. It would be stupid if Ichigo did randomly fire GT or Aizen did create random illusions. KK already has a mood problem, there's no point in overdoing KK's cons.

I didn't say "too complicated" I merely think it is unnecessarily so. What we had in that particular chapter was something like this. First starrk is surprised by the shadow attack. Then he mentions something about shunsui hiding that trick and shunsui answers he didn't hide/held back on anything, KK simply was not in the mood. What I got from that was that KK was not in the mood for KO specifically rather than not being in the mood for any games at all until then. That makes the mood comment 100% relevant to KO. Still, your interpretation could be correct, it is just not nearly as evident -once again, unnecessarily complicated in face of a much simpler and evident explanation-.

Things that are very high also have shadows, they are just harder to spot due to the angle and whatnot. Every now and then even in clear days it is actually possible to come across an airplanes shadow (it is kinda fast though lol).

About the color game, it is only risky if you use a color you are wearing. Had shunsui said "white" he would have given quite a bit of damage with no risk to himself. I would think the cut aizen would have received in such case would be larger than this (http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/374/13/) given that aizen wore more white than shunsui did and that in turn would have been more damaging than the wound caused by IO -which does not seem to deal mortal wounds-.

[BaddAzzKenpachi74]

I didn't say "too complicated" I merely think it is unnecessarily so. What we had in that particular chapter was something like this. First starrk is surprised by the shadow attack. Then he mentions something about shunsui hiding that trick and shunsui answers he didn't hide/held back on anything, KK simply was not in the mood. What I got from that was that KK was not in the mood for KO specifically rather than not being in the mood for any games at all until then. That makes the mood comment 100% relevant to KO. Still, your interpretation could be correct, it is just not nearly as evident -once again, unnecessarily complicated in face of a much simpler and evident explanation-.

Things that are very high also have shadows, they are just harder to spot due to the angle and whatnot. Every now and then even in clear days it is actually possible to come across an airplanes shadow (it is kinda fast though lol).

About the color game, it is only risky if you use a color you are wearing. Had shunsui said "white" he would have given quite a bit of damage with no risk to himself. I would think the cut aizen would have received in such case would be larger than this (http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/374/13/) given that aizen wore more white than shunsui did and that in turn would have been more damaging than the wound caused by IO -which does not seem to deal mortal wounds-.
thats a point i bring up alot of times.
the thing is Shunsui's color game doesn't depend on strength but rather wut exactly a person is wearing.
Shunsui also gets the first attack.
the more the color cover the body the more major the damage would be.
seeing as how Aizen is completely covered in white and Shunsui mostly black Aizen would be the only one to get hurt in the situation and BADLY at that considering how much white he has on.
Aizen however would not be able to hurt Shunsui however wich leads to the assumption that theoretically speaking Shunsui could beat Aizen.
wich does raise the question as to why exactly he didn't choose KKs color game instead.:darn

[Gran Maestro]

Things that are very high also have shadows, they are just harder to spot due to the angle and whatnot. Every now and then even in clear days it is actually possible to come across an airplanes shadow (it is kinda fast though lol).

I guess you don't argue that playing Kageoni above ground is possible. And if playing Kageoni above ground is not possible, by logical deduction, Shunsui's comment about his sword's mood can't be about Kageoni alone. Shunsui also said "That's why playing with her wears me out", implying that he had trouble with convincing KK to play.


Had shunsui said "white" he would have given quite a bit of damage with no risk to himself.

Everybody around plays the game, including Soifon, Shinji and Hitsugaya.
[hr]

seeing as how Aizen is completely covered in white and Shunsui mostly black Aizen would be the only one to get hurt in the situation and BADLY at that considering how much white he has on.

I think you misunderstood the color game. When Shunsui says "white", both Aizen and Shunsui can only cut the color "white" but since Shunsui doesn't have any "white", Aizen can't cut Shunsui at all. On the other hand, the damage will be proportional to the amount of "white" Shunsui is wearing and therefore there will be minimal damage. Shunsui has to take more risk to do more damage.

[BaddAzzKenpachi74]

I guess you don't argue that playing Kageoni above ground is possible. And if playing Kageoni above ground is not possible, by logical deduction, Shunsui's comment about his sword's mood can't be about Kageoni alone. Shunsui also said "That's why playing with her wears me out", implying that he had trouble with convincing KK to play.



Everybody around plays the game, including Soifon, Shinji and Hitsugaya.
<hr noshade size="1">


I think you misunderstood the color game. When Shunsui says "white", both Aizen and Shunsui can only cut the color "white" but since Shunsui doesn't have any "white", Aizen can't cut Shunsui at all. On the other hand, the damage will be proportional to the amount of "white" Shunsui is wearing and therefore there will be minimal damage. Shunsui has to take more risk to do more damage.
mmmmmm guess i should go back and read that chapter again:amuse
guess i had it all wrong

[kkck]

I guess you don't argue that playing Kageoni above ground is possible. And if playing Kageoni above ground is not possible, by logical deduction, Shunsui's comment about his sword's mood can't be about Kageoni alone. Shunsui also said "That's why playing with her wears me out", implying that he had trouble with convincing KK to play.



Everybody around plays the game, including Soifon, Shinji and Hitsugaya.
<hr noshade size="1">


I think you misunderstood the color game. When Shunsui says "white", both Aizen and Shunsui can only cut the color "white" but since Shunsui doesn't have any "white", Aizen can't cut Shunsui at all. On the other hand, the damage will be proportional to the amount of "white" Shunsui is wearing and therefore there will be minimal damage. Shunsui has to take more risk to do more damage.

I am under the impression playing kageoni above the ground is possible, it is just harder to find the shadow and hit it. Shunsui said it was tiresome to play with his sword because he also takes damage, not because of his mood -at least that was the impression I got-.

Even if everyone plays shunsui just needed one turn. Why not just cancel the game after doing his thing? I don't think cancelling the games depends on mood, just undo the shikai for the moment.

The amount of damage done is proportional to the amount of color wore by both fighters. Shunsui said grey and yet he still did damage even though he did not have grey on him. Starrk was just wearing a small arm thing with grey hence he took so little damage. On the other hand the reason starrk was defeated when shunsui said black even though starrk was not cut on black was because the risk shunsui took right then was huge. If the amount of damage is proportional to risk to yourself, starrk not having black while shunsui was wearing only black meant shunsui was effectively dealing maximun damage.

[freshseth83]

this is my take on it- shunsui is the owner of Katen Kyokotsu. He is in harmony with his swords. So the mood that she's in, he knows. The mood that he's in, she knows. One of the stipulations of being a captain is that you can reach bankai am i correct? Obviously to reach bankai you have to be in communication and harmony with your sword(s). I'm sure that Shunsui is in complete harmony with Katen Kyokotsu. The way she acts is a reflection of the way he acts. If he's laid back, that's how she will be. If he's serious and it's time then she will be also. That's the communication that a captain and his sword have. I'm sure since he was one of the first captains along with Ukitake and Unohana that we know of, he's well in tune with his sword. Lisa confirmed how Shunsui is, when she stomped him in the ground where he was playing dead. He's lazy half the time and finds no reason to give it his all. And I agree wit him. Stark didn't want to give it his all so why should Shunsui? I guess none of us can be sure if he is in complete control or if she is. I would guess it's a combination of both. That at times she can communicate with him through unspoken words that the games she wants to play are this, or this, and not a certain game. The spinning top game was the first one we saw. That probably didn't even get to finish being played.

Another thing i was surprised at was the strength of his Katen Kyokotsu. The fact that when the color game was being played and he called gray and sliced Starks arm that it was a shallow wound, but stark remarked about how he felt like his arm got cut off. Of course it was explained that the damage done is relative to the amount of color that striker is wearing. But Shunsui wasn't wearing ANY grey at all. That to me shows the strength of Shunsui along with Katen Kyokotsu. Another example was when Stark called white. He got a hit on Shunsui, as he remarked that white would be the greatest amount of damage he could do but instead of a kill shot it merely gave him a deep wound. Maybe this example shows more cunning than strength but when Shunsui calls black he throws his white captains coat at stark. What I think Shunsui was doing was getting his hit in before Stark could call out another color. Either that or they were taking turns but I don't know if there is a translation of them being able to take turns. Regardless if it was Shunsui's 'turn' he aimed for the hollow hole in starks chest. Which was black, and we know that the vital organs are in the chest- namely the heart. Shunsui showed strength, wits, cunning, and good decision making in that fight. This is why to me he's the best Captain besides Yama on the good side. Everyone knows Aizen is the greatest captain because of his KS and things that he has taken advantage of.

[kkck]

this is my take on it- shunsui is the owner of Katen Kyokotsu. He is in harmony with his swords. So the mood that she's in, he knows. The mood that he's in, she knows. One of the stipulations of being a captain is that you can reach bankai am i correct? Obviously to reach bankai you have to be in communication and harmony with your sword(s). I'm sure that Shunsui is in complete harmony with Katen Kyokotsu. The way she acts is a reflection of the way he acts. If he's laid back, that's how she will be. If he's serious and it's time then she will be also. That's the communication that a captain and his sword have. I'm sure since he was one of the first captains along with Ukitake and Unohana that we know of, he's well in tune with his sword. Lisa confirmed how Shunsui is, when she stomped him in the ground where he was playing dead. He's lazy half the time and finds no reason to give it his all. And I agree wit him. Stark didn't want to give it his all so why should Shunsui? I guess none of us can be sure if he is in complete control or if she is. I would guess it's a combination of both. That at times she can communicate with him through unspoken words that the games she wants to play are this, or this, and not a certain game. The spinning top game was the first one we saw. That probably didn't even get to finish being played.

Another thing i was surprised at was the strength of his Katen Kyokotsu. The fact that when the color game was being played and he called gray and sliced Starks arm that it was a shallow wound, but stark remarked about how he felt like his arm got cut off. Of course it was explained that the damage done is relative to the amount of color that striker is wearing. But Shunsui wasn't wearing ANY grey at all. That to me shows the strength of Shunsui along with Katen Kyokotsu. Another example was when Stark called white. He got a hit on Shunsui, as he remarked that white would be the greatest amount of damage he could do but instead of a kill shot it merely gave him a deep wound. Maybe this example shows more cunning than strength but when Shunsui calls black he throws his white captains coat at stark. What I think Shunsui was doing was getting his hit in before Stark could call out another color. Either that or they were taking turns but I don't know if there is a translation of them being able to take turns. Regardless if it was Shunsui's 'turn' he aimed for the hollow hole in starks chest. Which was black, and we know that the vital organs are in the chest- namely the heart. Shunsui showed strength, wits, cunning, and good decision making in that fight. This is why to me he's the best Captain besides Yama on the good side. Everyone knows Aizen is the greatest captain because of his KS and things that he has taken advantage of.

I don't think being as in tune with your zampakuto is a requirement. A zampakuto and a shinigami share a spiritual body and they might even have similar personalities (same types as it was called a long time ago) but that does not mean they have to agree with anything. Being in tune is not a requirement for bankai, actually, to get bankai you have to beat the crap out of your zampakuto after bringing it to the real world. Learning about each other is a requirement to learn to use a zampakuto though.

I don't think the damage dealt to starrk when shunsui said grey was a reflection of how strong he was. That cut was merely and only a reflection of how much grey starrk had on him. Also, they were definitely taking turns (http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/374/12/). Not all games have turns -iro oni was a race to each others shadow basically and taka oni was a race to the highest position basically- though. It makes no sense shunsui explained the game and waited for starrk to attack if he didn't have to take turns, he could have easily spammed the game and not explain the game otherwise.

[freshseth83]

i could swear i read before that being in tune with your zanpakuto is ONE of the things that is needed to achieve bankai; not the ONLY thing, but ONE requirement. I would think Shunsui who has been captain as long or longer than anyone besides Yama that we know of, he would be in tune and communication with his sword. If Hitsugaya can be in tune with his sword why would someone at least 3 times his age not be? And i know they were taking turns with the color game but the other games we don't see if they have turns or not. Also if you look here http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/374/10/ Stark even says that the wound was shallow but admitted it felt like he was going to cut off his arm. If that isn't a sign of strength I don't know what is. Especially since he cut him on a color that was only on Stark. The damage done to Stark on a certain color is dependent on the amount of the same color of the attacker- Shunsui. So with NO GRAY on Shunsui, a shallow wound to Stark feeling like he cut off his arm shows to me strength. Also what he says here http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/374/15/ why do i have to fight with such a strong guy? Is that not another indication of Shunsui's strength?

[kkck]

i could swear i read before that being in tune with your zanpakuto is ONE of the things that is needed to achieve bankai; not the ONLY thing, but ONE requirement. I would think Shunsui who has been captain as long or longer than anyone besides Yama that we know of, he would be in tune and communication with his sword. If Hitsugaya can be in tune with his sword why would someone at least 3 times his age not be? And i know they were taking turns with the color game but the other games we don't see if they have turns or not. Also if you look here http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/374/10/ Stark even says that the wound was shallow but admitted it felt like he was going to cut off his arm. If that isn't a sign of strength I don't know what is. Especially since he cut him on a color that was only on Stark. The damage done to Stark on a certain color is dependent on the amount of the same color of the attacker- Shunsui. So with NO GRAY on Shunsui, a shallow wound to Stark feeling like he cut off his arm shows to me strength. Also what he says here http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/374/15/ why do i have to fight with such a strong guy? Is that not another indication of Shunsui's strength?

I am not questioning shunsui's strength, merely an interpretation of an event. I don't think the sensation starrk had was a reflection of that. We know the game can either limit the damage (dealing a shallow wound where shunsui made a complete slash) and increase it (the wound shunsui got from starrk's "white" attack became big on its own) so what I think happen what that the slash starrk received normally would have cut an arm -or at least not be a shallow wound- but due to the rules of the game it was small. Nothing to do with shunsui's strength at all, just the rules of the game.

[Gran Maestro]

I am under the impression playing kageoni above the ground is possible, it is just harder to find the shadow and hit it. Shunsui said it was tiresome to play with his sword because he also takes damage, not because of his mood -at least that was the impression I got-.

Shunsui stabbed Stark the moment Stark's foot touched the ground (http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/373/19/), I don't think it's a coincidence. And how can you stab your opponent by coming out of his shadow if he is far away?

And Shunsui said (http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/374/05/) "That's why playing with her wears me out" right after he said "The sword was not in the mood." It was not a general statement, it was a complaint regarding the sword's mood.


Even if everyone plays shunsui just needed one turn. Why not just cancel the game after doing his thing? I don't think cancelling the games depends on mood, just undo the shikai for the moment.

What if Aizen cuts Soifon before Shunsui cuts Aizen? It's very risky.


The amount of damage done is proportional to the amount of color wore by both fighters. Shunsui said grey and yet he still did damage even though he did not have grey on him. Starrk was just wearing a small arm thing with grey hence he took so little damage. On the other hand the reason starrk was defeated when shunsui said black even though starrk was not cut on black was because the risk shunsui took right then was huge. If the amount of damage is proportional to risk to yourself, starrk not having black while shunsui was wearing only black meant shunsui was effectively dealing maximun damage.

Stark was cut on black, Shunsui cut Stark by means of his hollow hole, he couldn't cut a different color because of the rules. Shunsui said (http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/374/14/) "the higher the risk to yourself the more damage you inflict", damage is proportional to the risk you take, i.e. the amount of that color on you. Stark took minimal damage with grey because there was no grey on Shunsui. Shunsui couldn't do much damage to Aizen without taking any risk.

[freshseth83]

i agree with you there Gran. But I also agree with you too KK. But i'm also sticking by my statement of saying that it had to deal with Shunsui's strength when he cut the gray on Starks arm. If he wasn't strong i don't think the gray cut would have felt that way, I think it was another way of Kubo showing how strong a senior captain really is. Another sign of strength was when Stark commented on it asking why. Of course you agree that Shunsui is strong but I think the strike on the gray is another indication. As is when they were attacking Aizen and he struck from behind but cracked his barrier. I'm pretty sure that Shunsui could have used another game on Aizen but why waste the strength when you have other captains fighting along with you? And why do the color game that might catch them up in it as well. I'm sure they have intelligence but who knows if any of the captains could use the color game as well as Shunsui had hoped. If Soi Fon and Hitsugaya are fighting alongside you they have their respective powers. Why negate those powers for an iffy color game against Aizen? The shadow move worked best, unfortunately it wasn't him. I still think on a one-on-one, Shunsui might stand a chance against Aizen. If he did capture him in a color game the way he caught stark he would stand the best chance at winning. The thing is how would he get Aizen in that game? From the shadow? We seen that even with that it could be an illusion's shadow. The only thing i can think of is Shunsui taking a hit on purpose the way Yama did then say 'Irooni, White'! Something of that sort. Once he is in the game it seems all other powers are negated and it's down to melee attacks with a blade. I hope when the anime of this fight comes out that we see more detail of how this battle between Shunsui and Stark unfolded.

[Gran Maestro]

i'm also sticking by my statement of saying that it had to deal with Shunsui's strength when he cut the gray on Starks arm. If he wasn't strong i don't think the gray cut would have felt that way, I think it was another way of Kubo showing how strong a senior captain really is.

So you say the cut felt the way how it would have felt without the game, the game limits the damage but not the sense of damage from the attack. Possible, IMO Shunsui is more than capable of severing Stark's arm. (It felt like it.) Likewise even Stark's best attack in color game was not enough to defeat Shunsui, it shows how powerful Shunsui is.


I still think on a one-on-one, Shunsui might stand a chance against Aizen. If he did capture him in a color game the way he caught stark he would stand the best chance at winning.

I would like to see Aizen against Shunsui & Ukitake but Kubo conveniently took Ukitake out of Aizen's way.

[kkck]

How can a hole have a color -in this case black-? It is empty, it can't have a color. I don't think a hollow hole counts as black, it is like saying empty space has color.

[Gran Maestro]

How can a hole have a color -in this case black-? It is empty, it can't have a color. I don't think a hollow hole counts as black, it is like saying empty space has color.

It seems black. Not the hole but the boundary of the hole.

http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/374/01/

[kkck]

It seems black. Not the hole but the boundary of the hole.

http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/374/01/

I know it seems black but in all fairness it is a black and white colored manga. At most that is a shadow.

[Gran Maestro]

I know it seems black but in all fairness it is a black and white colored manga. At most that is a shadow.

If Shunsui didn't cut black, then Kubo doesn't know what he's talking about. :)

[kkck]

If Shunsui didn't cut black, then Kubo doesn't know what he's talking about. :)

Starrtk should be asian, he shouldn't have a shread of black on his skin. IMHO the reason black defeated starrk was because of how much risk there was to shunsui and starrk had no black on him. I don't think the empty space counts as black....

[Gran Maestro]

Starrtk should be asian, he shouldn't have a shread of black on his skin. IMHO the reason black defeated starrk was because of how much risk there was to shunsui and starrk had no black on him. I don't think the empty space counts as black....

Shunsui stated that cutting any color other than the one you called out was useless.

http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/374/12/

[kkck]

Shunsui stated that cutting any color other than the one you called out was useless.

http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/374/12/

But he also said the greater risk the greater the damage. What is riskier than a color starrk is not wearing but in turn is completely covering him. Perhaps the hole did count as black but how in the world does it make sense to make empty space count as black?

[Gran Maestro]

But he also said the greater risk the greater the damage. What is riskier than a color starrk is not wearing but in turn is completely covering him. Perhaps the hole did count as black but how in the world does it make sense to make empty space count as black?

Well, I agree it doesn't make much sense but I don't have a better explanation.

[poobert]

I thought he cut the inside of the hole. There is no skin on the inside, I assume, and it always looks black to me. It would have definitely been a critical hit too, because around the hole is just vital organs.

*edit* although in the colour pictures on google, he seems to have quite a large amount of black, bordering his outfit.

[freshseth83]

i thought his outfit had black on as well. even in his released state. Maybe the hole isn't 'black' but i think around the hole there could be black. This is why i said I wanted to see it in the anime. I'm sure Kubo will have more detail and more time to better illustrate the happenings of this fight. And about the strength of Shunsui with the gray cut. I do think he'd be able to cut off Starks arm where the gray was without the game. But in the game you can only cut a color you call out doing damage relative to the color you have on. So in other words even without the color gray on Shunsui was strong enough to cut Starks arm. I think it was a development type of thing, an illustration from Kubo to show us the start of the game. I'm sure he could have went and said white to start off and slashed a big part of Stark but he went for the low powered hit. I think it's apart of story telling. But what I'm trying to say is that even with no gray on him, Shunsui was still able to make Stark feel the cut pretty well even it being shallow. We know how Shunsui and Ukitake are, they are fighters who have values, they both wanted Stark to shew away Lilly' because she was a 'kid' so i think Shunsui was ony being fair. I can't say for certain but that's my hunch

[poopoomaru]

A shadow counts as black. Because shadows are....dark. A dark enough shadow would then be.....black. I honestly don't think we should get bogged down because Shunsui didn't call out the precise shade of black that a shadow might be. As long as there is even the tiniest bit of black, the rest of the cut is explained by the multiplication of power from Katen Kyokotsu.

[freshseth83]

agreed, maru. It's a strong power. Shunsui is my favorite character, but not because of his powers. I've liked him ever since the first moment he appeared in bleach. I loved the hat. I also like the long hair and his carefree attitude. He knows when to get serious though. He's a good strategy guy though too. Of course people can say he was a cheap-shot guy but i like to think of it as 'buying the opportune time'.

[Xerneas]

The black thing is pretty clear to me. Kubo made Starrk's hole represent black because thats how its usually presented in the manga, even when the Hollow is face-on. Holes are associated with darkness. Kubo wanted it to be seen as a critical hit, since Starrk was slashed in his "heart" as it were.

[kkck]

If the youtube videos of starrk are to be trusted then there actually is a little black on starrk's clothes around the whole though.

[freshseth83]

in one of the higher quality manga scans you see he cut him sideways across the chest area. That to me would indicate it was the hollow hole he aimed for. i think it was mangastream where i saw it. They usually have high quality pictures of the pages. The way Stark and Shunsui were drawn i think was one of the best animated manga's in a while. Especially the picture of Shunsui's reflection in his sword when he's explaining Katen Kyokotsu's power! That was awesome.

[Deepak5191]

Wow it seems all the mangakas got together are killing off all their older leader position characters
Yama in Bleach
Whitebeard in One Piece
Danzou in Naruto
Hohenheim from FMA feels like is going to die soon too

I dont read a lot of Mangas but it does seem to be a recurring theme

[Katz]

^you should read alot more manga outside of shounen cause it happens all the time in "less kid friendly" mangas, but it does seem to be hitting the "big 3" as of late

and Yama better not *beeping* die, old men are our future OK!....or do I get that backwards?...should it go "the ADHD orange haired guy is our future?"

[Stevenh1990]

Im fine with with Shunsui beating Starrk but what I don't like is how Kubo nerf Stark by taking his guns and wolves away just so Shunsui can win . But heh the plot needed to move foward .

[freshseth83]

it's one of shunsui's abilities. You get in the color game the only thing you can do is cut a color you call out. Seems like Cero's would be useless. I guess Shunsui's reiatsu was greater than Starks.

[Richo]

I don't think my interpretation is too complicated: If sword is in the mood, Shunsui can play any game he wants, if sword is not in the mood, Shunsui can't play anything. That's it. :)

Against Aizen, shadow game was the best choice because it would be very risky to attack Aizen directly in a color game. If you want to do considerable damage, you have to take the risk of getting considerable damage.

And I don't get people's point about Kageoni. Shunsui wouldn't be able to take advantage of Kageoni even if he wanted to because they were fighting above ground. No, obviously Shunsui's complaint about sword's mood was not relevant to Kageoni which was useless up to that point anyway, it was about something else.

Every shinigami can use his zanpakuto's abilities at will, I don't understand why it poses a problem when it comes to KK. It would be stupid if Ichigo did randomly fire GT or Aizen did create random illusions. KK already has a mood problem, there's no point in overdoing KK's cons.

A zanapaktou has a personality like their hosts, commonly both personalities are quite similair. In shuinsu case he has a zanpaktou that wishes doesnt listen to well to its master. Ikkaku has the same problem with his bankai, his bankai will not be a full strenght untill you battle for some time either hurting yourself or youre opponent or forcing it with alot of reiatsu.
Yumichka has a sturborn zanpaktou as been shown before and they fight alot.
Rangiku her zanpaktou is identical to herself wich gives obvious problems.
Ichigo his zanpaktou Shirosaki is a rebelious hollow wich tries to take over Ichigo (and yes shirosaki is part of the ichigo his zanpaktou or better said currently zangetsu is part of shirosaki).
These are perfect examples of zanpaktou...
A zanpaktou is a soul/person aswell they dont always blindly listen to their boss/companion.

[freshseth83]

hence the laid back not always wanting to fight or give it their all. the way shunsui is, is the same way his swords are. During the anime fillers you get to see his zanpakuto. one is a pirate lady with bones in her hair with an eyepatch and another is like an assasin ninja that hides in shadows. that was pretty cool to see them. shunsui knows his swords though and even though she was hiding in the shadows he knew she was there. He's not just strong, but pretty smart too. Yama was right when he said he had a way to seeing through to the truth. He knew something was up in the TBTP arc the night Lisa left.

[Gcat88]

Was it ever stated that a Zanpaktou has the same personality as the user??

Does anyone hope for another War??

[Xerneas]

Didn't know where else to put this. For some reason I was thinking about Loly and Menoly. People used to wonder all the time if they were Fraccion, and if so, who's. Well couldn't they be Yammy's Fraccion? The look they had on their faces when he busted through Las Noches was one you get when your boss catches you doing something you shouldn't. Plus it would make sense - the pimp and his two ho's. After all he was right: Loly IS a slut.

[conn-man]

nah they probably just know yammi from seeing him around los noches, not to mention the espada are celebrities. and i would say those scared faces are just because they know his reputaion for trying to kill people at random.

[Weapon_X]

I was just re-reading "The End of Hypnosis 1-9" arc. Man Kubo did the best job in there, every chapter seemed to have been layed out perfectly.

[Richo]

Was it ever stated that a Zranpaktou has the same personality as the user??

Does anyone hope for another War??

Eh where was that said? I read back a few posts and the only one who mentioned it was me. I said that a Zanpaktou has similair personalities to its user and i stated a few examples of it. But as proven by Ichigo and Renji this doesnt always have to be the case. In the fillers they also shown Ukitake and soifon.

[Gcat88]

I THOUGHT someone said that all the Zanpaktou have the same personality as their user. I was going to say, that isnt right and ask if they could prove themself with a page showing that, but guess thats not needed. You seem to be a big Gin fan; do you think he has a hidden agenda??

[kkck]

I THOUGHT someone said that all the Zanpaktou have the same personality as their user. I was going to say, that isnt right and ask if they could prove themself with a page showing that, but guess thats not needed. You seem to be a big Gin fan; do you think he has a hidden agenda??
http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/229/19/

[akilies]

Hi guys this is my 1st post here, so few things about bleach discussion. Now there is a huge commotion about

1)how will Weakigo fight Aizen.
2)is there any captain still alive to fight aizen who can really hurt him.

well there is a couple of other chars still not on battlefield which includes Urahara+Weakigo's Dad+Ishidaa's Dad.
If they join the fight they might be pretty strong as well.
Also i would like to ask you guys here about the "squad 0" thing which has been mentioned once.
If i remember correct it was said that captains who get promoted go to "squad 0"
now assuming that a captain getting promotion means they have probably reached some new level of strength. where the hell is squad 0 then?_?
About Jin, i think he will double cross Aizen, he look the kind(my own thoughts).
Also i wana know about weakigo's dad shini mode clothing, he has a part of captain's robe as well, can it be normal clothing of squad 0, which specifies them as previous captains.
Also there was a previous mention of a King of SS. could weakigo's dad be that guy. well do let me know what you guys think about it.

Ohh n 1 last thing
http://mangastream.com/read/bleach/392-50/11
this part of manga when every 1 who was under Aizen's shakai influence thought that Hinamori was Aizen n kept attacking her. 1 thing i dont get is that weakigo was not under the influence and he just stood by n watch every 1 attack hinmori 1 by 1, that idiot weakigo is in his bankai form which means he has super speed, y didnt he go ahead n stop hitsuga from stabbing her by mistake?? or he scared sh1tless just wetting his panties -.-, he waits till the end to warn them that they r not fighting Aizen, how much more stupid can he get.

[David Gill]

http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/345/bonus
Can someone explain this to me?

[kkck]

http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/345/bonus
Can someone explain this to me?

Ulquiorra's zampakuto name is murcielago which means bat. I think that should explain it.

[poobert]

Eh where was that said? I read back a few posts and the only one who mentioned it was me. I said that a Zanpaktou has similair personalities to its user and i stated a few examples of it. But as proven by Ichigo and Renji this doesnt always have to be the case. In the fillers they also shown Ukitake and soifon.

I mentioned it too, but I don't think Ichigo is counter to the rule. Zangetsu and the hollow are different sides to ichigo's personality.

http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/110/09/
http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/221/08/
http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/221/09/

This is Ichigo's drive, which is exactly the same as his hollow. His instinct to fight and his need to win. His endless quest for battles seems to fit with the swords master that Zangetsu is.

[SageofSolus]

I was l.ooking at pics and bios of ichigos father and zangetsu and was wondering if its just me or do they have similar facial features and look like they could be related in some way?

Oh and are there any threads on theories of what ichigonator might truly be?

[Zatono]

Oh and are there any threads on theories of what ichigonator might truly be?

As soon as we saw Tousen's resurreccion everyone came to the conclusion that Ichigonator was just Ichigo's resurreccion.

[kkck]

As soon as we saw Tousen's resurreccion everyone came to the conclusion that Ichigonator was just Ichigo's resurreccion.

Personaly, I think the idea that ichigo's most recent transformation is a resurreccion is utterly absurd and would be nothing but contradictory to the manga. A resurreccion is a sword release, a direct consequence of calling out the power of a zampakuto. Ichigo's most recent hollow transformation was not the result of releasing a zampakuto therefore it simply cannot be a resurreccion. I can see similarities between resurreccion and acquiring that hollow form but that still does not make it a resurreccion. As long as that form is not the result of releasing a zampakuto it simply won't be a resurreccion. We might as well argue putting on a mask is also resurreccion.

[igotthegoods]

Oh and are there any threads on theories of what ichigonator might truly be?

Yes there is: Discussion on Ichigo's Hollow (http://mangahelpers.com/forum/showthread.php?t=25437)

[freshseth83]

i don't think it's a ressurecion, but being resurrected is what happened to him. He apparently came back from the dead. So that can sound like a resurrection, but not in the same spelling or meaning of bleach. My view is it's just his hollow form. Much like we seen his hollow take control before but Ichigo was still there, he wasn't dead. This time it's as if Ichigo was dead and it was his inner hollow- Shirosaki(?) taking control. I think the new bleach movie is going to touch on this more. So maybe we should wait till he does it again or this movie comes out.

[Zatono]

Personaly, I think the idea that ichigo's most recent transformation is a resurreccion is utterly absurd and would be nothing but contradictory to the manga. A resurreccion is a sword release, a direct consequence of calling out the power of a zampakuto. Ichigo's most recent hollow transformation was not the result of releasing a zampakuto therefore it simply cannot be a resurreccion. I can see similarities between resurreccion and acquiring that hollow form but that still does not make it a resurreccion. As long as that form is not the result of releasing a zampakuto it simply won't be a resurreccion. We might as well argue putting on a mask is also resurreccion.

Hasn't Segunda Etapa already contradicted this manga then? It's a second ressureccion that took place without any type of sword, yet Ulq still called it that.

[Exodi]

You're assuming it's a second resurrection altogether. And Ulquiorra didn't call it a second resurrection. He called it "Second Stage". Two different things.

Personally, I think Ulquiorra's Segunda Etapa isn't so much a second resurrection by itself as it is the second half of a full resurrection. This goes for Yammy, too. With every power up, he gets closer and closer to his original hollow form. A second resurrection to me sounds like if Ulquiorra resurrected into Murcielago, and then resurrected into, say, Fornicaras.

Ichigo sort of resembles a resurrection, though. But it's not the same thing, imo. When Ichigo puts on the mask, he's simply revealing more of his hollow side than his shinigami side; as opposed to an arrancar and his resurrection, which are still completely hollows either way. When Ichigo died, his shinigami side went away almost completely, and so Ichigo appeared.

[kkck]

Hasn't Segunda Etapa already contradicted this manga then? It's a second ressureccion that took place without any type of sword, yet Ulq still called it that.

Not necessarily. Resurreccion already generally makes the zampakuto of the arrancar disappear and change its body. To some extent, the new form an arrancar acquires is his zampakuto therefore the only plausible way in which a second level of release is possible is through a change in form in the body.
[hr]

You're assuming it's a second resurrection altogether. And Ulquiorra didn't call it a second resurrection. He called it "Second Stage". Two different things.

Personally, I think Ulquiorra's Segunda Etapa isn't so much a second resurrection by itself as it is the second half of a full resurrection. This goes for Yammy, too. With every power up, he gets closer and closer to his original hollow form. A second resurrection to me sounds like if Ulquiorra resurrected into Murcielago, and then resurrected into, say, Fornicaras.

Ichigo sort of resembles a resurrection, though. But it's not the same thing, imo. When Ichigo puts on the mask, he's simply revealing more of his hollow side than his shinigami side; as opposed to an arrancar and his resurrection, which are still completely hollows either way. When Ichigo died, his shinigami side went away almost completely, and so Ichigo appeared.

Ulquiorra called what he did many things. Segunda etapa translated from spanish to english means second stage. If it is translated from Japannese to english then RSE means "sword release: second level". Aside from the same, ulquiorra also called is a stage of release independently from the name. On another note, second stage and second level are other ways to which bankai has been referred too. Also, this part (http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/348/10/) would not make sense if what ulquiorra acquired was merely another form of the resurreccion he was already using instead of a second level of release altogether. If what ulquiorra got was something within his own resurreccion then it would not make sense for him to say he was the only espada who had reached a second level of release. Basically he is saying he is the only espada who has acquired something which only he could plausibly acquired. It would be like byakuya saying he is the only shinigami who has acquired senkei. It would be true but it is pointless to make a comparison to other shinigami because it is something completely unique to byakuya. Other shinigami might simply not have any other plausible forms to his zampakuto.

[Gran Maestro]

Ulquiorra called what he did many things. Segunda etapa translated from spanish to english means second stage. If it is translated from Japannese to english then RSE means "sword release: second level". Aside from the same, ulquiorra also called is a stage of release independently from the name. On another note, second stage and second level are other ways to which bankai has been referred too. Also, this part (http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/348/10/) would not make sense if what ulquiorra acquired was merely another form of the resurreccion he was already using instead of a second level of release altogether. If what ulquiorra got was something within his own resurreccion then it would not make sense for him to say he was the only espada who had reached a second level of release. Basically he is saying he is the only espada who has acquired something which only he could plausibly acquired. It would be like byakuya saying he is the only shinigami who has acquired senkei. It would be true but it is pointless to make a comparison to other shinigami because it is something completely unique to byakuya. Other shinigami might simply not have any other plausible forms to his zampakuto.

The terminology difference between "form" and "stage" in the manga is moot. For example we know that Tousen referred to his bankai as "final form (http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/146/09-10/)".

Ulquiorra's statement doesn't mean that every arrancar can achieve SE because he couldn't possibly know that SE wasn't unique to himself if there was no other known example of SE.

And I don't mention the countless hints in the manga that suggest Ulquiorra's SE is no more special than Byakuya's senkei and similar secondary power-ups that serve no purpose other than making a victory more dramatic.

[poobert]

Do you think that maybe when the other espada sacrificed rapid regeneration for more power, they may have also unknowingly sacrificed the ability to get to the second stage?

Uliquorra was unique in that respect only. He never sacrificed anything for more power making him pretty much the only pure arrancar that Aizen hasn't fiddled with.

Yami however is completely different. He just powers up as he gets angry, kind of like Ikkaku's bankai but with anger instead of time (and he changes form).

[Xerneas]

Its my personal opinion that SE is unique. Meaning that if/when VLs show up, they won't have it. I believe that Ulquiorra invented that form by himself to get back the attack power he lost when he became an Arrancar. His energy power greatly increased (Lanza) but everything else seemed the same. At least, you couldn't tell the difference cause he was just as fast/strong compared to Ichigo with R1. So yeah I don't think SE is some Ban Kai or anything, its just his attack form. Meaning, its a variation of his resurreccion a la Senkei, not a second separate resurrecion. The latter makes no sense.

With Yammy, its a similar deal. His second form isn't another resurreccion, its an alternate version of his resurreccion with (presumably) higher attack power. If he has a third stage it will be the same thing, maybe he'll get much faster or something. Not that he would have 3 resurreccions or some nonsense. Ulquiorra and Yammy certainly stand out from the rest of the Espada (probably why they stuck together). Maybe there is something more to this form-changing that hasn't been revealed yet.

Finally, I believe Ichigonator was a resurreccion. I don't know why some people think it wasn't just because he kept his Ban Kai. Er, the top Espada all kept their weapons after they released (granted, the weapons changed form but still). Maybe it didn't change at all because Ichigonator is a separate entity from Zangetsu/Ogihci. Aizen said that Ichigo mastered his Hollow powers (10 stripe mask of Ogihci), then discovered an event greater power (Ichigonator), so it would seem that there is some kind of disconnect between these two powers.

[Zatono]

Somehow, I think that the all knowing Aizen is going to explain what Ichigonator was next chapter. Or at least I hope that we'll soon get some sort of explanation.

[Hystzen]

im sure ichigonator was just like how his hollow has side has taken over before to protect ichigos body we all know his hollow side just wants ichigo to max out his soul reaper powers so he can take over ichigo is basically a host at moment but ichigo has beat him before sure it happen again. makes me wonder tho has his hollow side reached VL statis maybe aizen wants data on that to use on his next experiment gin?

[En Yang Ji]

I just thought about it, but it seems like a bit of a plot hole that Yama and the other strong shinigami couldn't beat Aizen's KS. Yama was able to locate Aizen through the reiastu in his stomach. Apparently Tousen "sees" people by locating their reiastu and can fight very well like that.

If Tousen can do that shouldn't Yama be able, after a little training? The Vizards and Urahara had a 100 years to refine their ability to sense reiastu. It should of been obvious that this would work after he explained his ability.

[kkck]

I just thought about it, but it seems like a bit of a plot hole that Yama and the other strong shinigami couldn't beat Aizen's KS. Yama was able to locate Aizen through the reiastu in his stomach. Apparently Tousen "sees" people by locating their reiastu and can fight very well like that.

If Tousen can do that shouldn't Yama be able, after a little training? The Vizards and Urahara had a 100 years to refine their ability to sense reiastu. It should of been obvious that this would work after he explained his ability.

Problem is tousen was never in any form under the effect of KS since he has been blind from the start. If the vizards had ripped their eyes of 100 years ago and trained to be like tousen they'd still be screwed against KS since their 4 remaining senses would still be very much under aizens control. Also, we don't know if it would be plausible for others to do what tousen did, fighting talent does not equate to learning that.

[En Yang Ji]

Problem is tousen was never in any form under the effect of KS since he has been blind from the start. If the vizards had ripped their eyes of 100 years ago and trained to be like tousen they'd still be screwed against KS since their 4 remaining senses would still be very much under aizens control. Also, we don't know if it would be plausible for others to do what tousen did, fighting talent does not equate to learning that.

Even if their 5 senses were under Aizen's control they still could locate Aizen through his reiastu

[kkck]

Even if their 5 senses were under Aizen's control they still could locate Aizen through his reiastu

I am not sure how that would work... We don't even know how exactly reiatsu is felt. Also, if aizen could be actually found by just reiatsu then the illusion would altogether not work. IMHO there are a few scenarios for this:

1.- KS controls reiatsu sensing or outright for no particular reason cannot be uncovered with that.

2.- Reiatsu sensing is related to the five senses and by extension would be controllable by KS. So reiatsu has been made described by the feeling of it, weight, smell and most recently even by sight (ichigo's hybrid reiatsu). I think this is particularly likely.

3.- In the heat of battle reiatsu feeling does not work anywhere near as well due to all the reiatsu around being released at once. At the begining of the manga rukia said reiatsu feeling could be interfered with strong reiatsus. In a battle against aizen that's all there would be around.

Yama managed to fell the reiatsu of KS in his gut but that hardly means regular reiatsu feeling would work. It might but we hardly have any evidence to argue that...

[En Yang Ji]

I don't think 1 and 2 are likely, because Yama taking a stab would be useless if that was the case. The problem for #3 is Tousen. Tousen was able to fight despite all of the reiastu.

IMO you hit it right on the head when you said, just because someone is talented doesn't mean they can learn that ability.

[Gran Maestro]

IMO sense of reiatsu is similar to sense of smell. (I think Kubo hinted this similarity when Orihime mentioned the scent of reiatsu (http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/164/02/).) The closer you are to a source of odor, the better you distinguish the location of the source. I think reiatsu sensing only helps you detect whether your opponent is around or not, you can't rely on it to react to the fast movements of your opponent and fight effectively. I guess Tousen's case is a blind swordsman anomaly, his other senses were so sharp that they could compensate for lack of vision. (Also see Daredevil (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Daredevil_%28Marvel_Comics%29).)

[Saint Markus]

Yama-ji was able to trace his reiatsu, because Aizen's zanpakuto was actually impaled in his body, hence how could you "not" mistake that it was really Aizen?.

there's a difference between "cutting" someone down and "stabbing" them, and in this case, Aizen was doing the stabbing so, go figure. it makes sense to me at least, i understand what your saying Kubo.

[kkck]

Wonder what would have happened if aizen had gone for a slash rather than a stab though. People say aizen has too much plotkai going for him but kubo made him just about unreasonable enough for him to be the type to use a katana, a weapon made specifically to slash, to stab the one guy with a kamikaze attack strong enough to kill him. How is that for plotkai lol.

[Gran Maestro]

Wonder what would have happened if aizen had gone for a slash rather than a stab though. People say aizen has too much plotkai going for him but kubo made him just about unreasonable enough for him to be the type to use a katana, a weapon made specifically to slash, to stab the one guy with a kamikaze attack strong enough to kill him. How is that for plotkai lol.

Depending on the defensive move of the opponent (position of his sword), a stab may be much more reasonable than a slash. Perhaps Yamaji intentionally left an opening that was suitable for a stabbing move.

Or perhaps Aizen just wanted to see what Yama was up to. He knew WW would contain the flames and force Yama to sacrifice himself later on.

Yama could try to slash Aizen or cut off Aizen's sword hand when he was holding it but it was all a set-up from Kubo to drag the story where he wanted to. They're not supposed to make perfect sense as long as we get the author's point.

[hajialibaig]

Some epic coloured spreads of the past few chapters:

Click Here (http://dark-khaos.deviantart.com/art/Yamamoto-Brings-the-Fire-157355504)

Click Here (http://febrifb.deviantart.com/art/yamamoto-genjusai-death-156870861)

Click Here (http://yata-garasu.deviantart.com/art/The-Burnout-Inferno-155372355)

Click Here (http://last-of-the-arrancar.deviantart.com/art/The-Flames-of-Hell-155393639)

[elitefox]

Some epic coloured spreads of the past few chapters:

Click Here (http://dark-khaos.deviantart.com/art/Yamamoto-Brings-the-Fire-157355504)

Click Here (http://febrifb.deviantart.com/art/yamamoto-genjusai-death-156870861)

Click Here (http://yata-garasu.deviantart.com/art/The-Burnout-Inferno-155372355)

Click Here (http://last-of-the-arrancar.deviantart.com/art/The-Flames-of-Hell-155393639)

awesome

but all fail before aizen :(

[freshseth83]

i tire of aizen, to me he's a boring villan... anyone else agree?

[thornofcarrion]

Well I'll agree to some extent. Seeing his calm posture and irritating grin throughout the manga is somewhat boring. Also, seeing him in control every time is rather monotonous. I am not complaining but I will like to see him go down for a moment and then bounce back.

[Gran Maestro]

i tire of aizen, to me he's a boring villan... anyone else agree?

Let's see:

1) Aizen has (http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/390/19/) unearthly abilities even without his zanpakuto.

2) Aizen has (http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/392/12/) one of the most broken zanpakuto abilities.

3) Aizen has (http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/393/19/) the means to nullify any zanpakuto.

4) Aizen has (http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/396/17/) hougyoku in him, he is invulnerable.

5) Aizen has (http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/396/20/) been controlling the main protagonist since the beginning.

Conclusion: Yes, he's boring. He is equipped with abilities to let him counter every possible threat vector. Kubo overdid it and when he finally decides to make Aizen look vulnerable, it will be totally unconvincing. How will Aizen's defeat be realistic if Ichigo is one of Aizen's pawns? Why isn't Ichigo under hypnosis if Aizen's eyes were on him all this time?

[Mauricio Raphael]

Some epic coloured spreads of the past few chapters:

Click Here (http://dark-khaos.deviantart.com/art/Yamamoto-Brings-the-Fire-157355504)

Click Here (http://febrifb.deviantart.com/art/yamamoto-genjusai-death-156870861)

Click Here (http://yata-garasu.deviantart.com/art/The-Burnout-Inferno-155372355)

Click Here (http://last-of-the-arrancar.deviantart.com/art/The-Flames-of-Hell-155393639)

All of them look pretty sweet!
That last one is, I think, the "hottest" of them all :amuse

[freshseth83]

that's why i tire of him. he's hyped up to be mr. unbeatable but we all know he's gonna bite the dust. but how? when he does it'll be something we all look at and say, "whaaaaa...? gtf-outta here!" Unless the story turns around and Ichigo goes into his form where he beat Ulqiorra, i don't see this being a fight that's worth divulging into.

[Saint Markus]

so, Ulquiorra and Yammy were left behind because those two were the strongest among all the espada. that's funny, being that those two were the first arrancars introduced into the manga, amazing.

[Exodi]

Actually, Grand Fisher was the first one.

[freshseth83]

grand fisher was an espada? i didn't think so, i thought he was an arrancar. Isshin must be extra strong to kill an espada with one swipe. If he was an espada he wasn't complete or he just wasn't an espada. Pertaining to Isshin though- i wonder if he's got almost all his shinigami strength back? Does anyone else think he looks like Shunsui and Zangetsu but without the long hair and glasses?

[Evil Mind]

grand fisher was an espada? i didn't think so, i thought he was an arrancar.

lol, looking back..


so, Ulquiorra and Yammy were left behind because those two were the strongest among all the espada. that's funny, being that those two were the first arrancars introduced into the manga, amazing.

And


Actually, Grand Fisher was the first one.

I think you misread a little Fresh. GF was first introduecd as an Arrancar way back before the SS arc started (or just as it started) we just didn't know that was an Arrancar at the time till Isshin told us.

[Exodi]

What Evil Eye said. Grand Fisher was the first arrancar we found out about, back when Ichigo was just meeting the Visoreds.

[Deepak5191]

Anyone ever notice how Masaki and Aizen (pre-bad guy Aizen, with the comb-over) look kinda similar.
Someone mentioned earlier that Kubo's characters don't really have much difference to their facial structures except changes to hair color, eye color etc, so that's probably it. But still, a theory is a theory and here's mine.
Aizen would be much too old to be Masaki's brother is she was just a regular human.
My theory is that Aizen wanted to test the results of hollowification on himself, but was to scared of the permanent consequences. Thus he cloned himself (Mayuri did this too, if I recall correctly, with Nemu so it shouldn't be impossible) and the result was Masaki. Using an imperfect method (since he didn't have the Hogyoku) he tried to give her hollow powers but ended up sealing both her Shinigami powers and Hollow powers which lay dormant in her body. Casting her aside to the human world, he kept tabs on her to see if any change occurred and eventually sent a hollow to test if danger would awaken these powers.

What do you guys think?

[Saint Markus]

Anyone ever notice how Masaki and Aizen (pre-bad guy Aizen, with the comb-over) look kinda similar.
Someone mentioned earlier that Kubo's characters don't really have much difference to their facial structures except changes to hair color, eye color etc, so that's probably it. But still, a theory is a theory and here's mine.
Aizen would be much too old to be Masaki's brother is she was just a regular human.
My theory is that Aizen wanted to test the results of hollowification on himself, but was to scared of the permanent consequences. Thus he cloned himself (Mayuri did this too, if I recall correctly, with Nemu so it shouldn't be impossible) and the result was Masaki. Using an imperfect method (since he didn't have the Hogyoku) he tried to give her hollow powers but ended up sealing both her Shinigami powers and Hollow powers which lay dormant in her body. Casting her aside to the human world, he kept tabs on her to see if any change occurred and eventually sent a hollow to test if danger would awaken these powers.

What do you guys think?




i do have a similar theory to Aizen and Masaki being siblings. only i think, the two of them are part of the royal family. i also believe that Masaki is the key to all this and maybe she was stronger than Aizen to a degree.

the thing about Ichigo being a prominent role in Aizen's plans is obvious. if Aizen really wants to defeat the SK, he would need similar power to carryout such a feat. Ichigo has royal blood and i think that the Spirit King is not a shinigami, nor is the Royal Family and that's why Aizen was ready to reveal to him.

why, Isshin has kept this hidden is obvious as well. Ichigo has blamed himself for his mother's death and after everything he's learned since meeting Rukia, for him to now know that his father is a shinigami would cause him confusion and somewhat anger towards his father. also, Ichigo would question his father on why he didn't save his mother then and that would be hard on Isshin.

but, i have another theory on the next two story arcs of Bleach.

the next one, which Kubo stated would be short, i think will be another "pendulum arc", but longer and will revolve completely around Isshin's past as a shinigami.

the final one, will deal with the Spirit King, Royal Family and Royal Guard and their positions on the current state of things happening in the spirit world and real world.

i do belive that Aizen's overall goal is to merge the two worlds together with the help of the Hougyoku's power and become God of a new world.


p.s., i am at least pleased that Bleach is finally moving forward after 3 long years of "filler" like chapters. sheesh, Kubo.

[White Silver King]

Does anyone know what episode of the anime/movie/chapter of the manga this picture is from. As you can see (albeit difficultly) it shows what Benihime looked like before it was sealed into the cane, I'd really like to see a bigger image so I can see what it looked like:

http://i178.photobucket.com/albums/w270/Firemaster16/Bleach/Cool_Urahara.jpg

[Exodi]

Does anyone know what episode of the anime/movie/chapter of the manga this picture is from. As you can see (albeit difficultly) it shows what Benihime looked like before it was sealed into the cane, I'd really like to see a bigger image so I can see what it looked like:

http://i178.photobucket.com/albums/w270/Firemaster16/Bleach/Cool_Urahara.jpg


Well, I'm fairly certain that the background is from the third opening for the show, Ichirin no Hana.

The foreground? Idk.
If he's wearing that outfit, it's either from the Turn Back the Pendulum arc, or from the 3rd movie.

Try the 3rd movie. If I recall correctly, he used his zanpakutou.

[Hystzen]

Anyone ever notice how Masaki and Aizen (pre-bad guy Aizen, with the comb-over) look kinda similar.
Someone mentioned earlier that Kubo's characters don't really have much difference to their facial structures except changes to hair color, eye color etc, so that's probably it. But still, a theory is a theory and here's mine.
Aizen would be much too old to be Masaki's brother is she was just a regular human.
My theory is that Aizen wanted to test the results of hollowification on himself, but was to scared of the permanent consequences. Thus he cloned himself (Mayuri did this too, if I recall correctly, with Nemu so it shouldn't be impossible) and the result was Masaki. Using an imperfect method (since he didn't have the Hogyoku) he tried to give her hollow powers but ended up sealing both her Shinigami powers and Hollow powers which lay dormant in her body. Casting her aside to the human world, he kept tabs on her to see if any change occurred and eventually sent a hollow to test if danger would awaken these powers.

What do you guys think?

*cough* under my sig

as for the grand fisher i thort this was when he was becoming a arrancar or am i wrong ?
: http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-chapter-25-page-17.html

and
http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-chapter-25-page-18.html



Does anyone know what episode of the anime/movie/chapter of the manga this picture is from. As you can see (albeit difficultly) it shows what Benihime looked like before it was sealed into the cane, I'd really like to see a bigger image so I can see what it looked like:

http://i178.photobucket.com/albums/w270/Firemaster16/Bleach/Cool_Urahara.jpg

yes that is from the 3rd op as yoruchi told ichigo about urahara been a captain during banaki training and it showed him in his captain outfit :)

[Gcat88]

@Saint Markus

I agree with you!!! Aizen will probably do something to merge the two worlds and become a god of all!!! I dont know what the last arc will be or if the unknown aspects of Bleach will ever appear!! I also have this feeling that Aizen isnt the final villian of BLEACH!! there has to be something, or someone, above him.

[Saint Markus]

i do have one question, when did Aizen even learn of the Hougyoku in the first place?. i mean, Urahara first showed it to Tessai and still had it in his possession after he escaped to the real world with the Vaizards and Yoruichi.

another plot hole here is Aizen following all of Ichigo's battles, but on the Soukyoku Hill, he tried to kill him right there and then. plus, Kubo is basically saying Aizen only needed the Arrancar (or even a reason to invade Hueco Mundo) just for this battle to distract and destroy the Gotei 13?. you needed this many chapters for this scenario?.

and was there suppose to be more purpose for the Vaizards, other than showing up to have their asses handed to them by Aizen and Gin?.

[hakuthehedgehog]

i do have one question, when did Aizen even learn of the Hougyoku in the first place?. i mean, Urahara first showed it to Tessai and still had it in his possession after he escaped to the real world with the Vaizards and Yoruichi.


another plot hole here is Aizen following all of Ichigo's battles, but on the Soukyoku Hill, he tried to kill him right there and then. plus, Kubo is basically saying Aizen only needed the Arrancar (or even a reason to invade Hueco Mundo) just for this battle to distract and destroy the Gotei 13?. you needed this many chapters for this scenario?.

and was there suppose to be more purpose for the Vaizards, other than showing up to have their asses handed to them by Aizen and Gin?.

Aizen needed the arrancar for two reasons:
To test hybridization, to later become the perfect being and to create WW, which was essencial to defeat Yamamoto.
We don't know if Aizen really tried to kill Ichigo, don't forget he said that he was the perfect test subject for his experiments.
How Aizen got the information on the Hougyoku: Well, I think they found evidence on Hollowfication in Urahara's lab, which was probably documented.

[Hystzen]

Aizen was using KS to create a fake aizen which urahara and shinji talked to they didnt know the real aizen was following them invincible so he prob followed urahara to his lab and watched his tests. Shinji knew something was wrong and tried to turn aizen to good but it failed when aizen was revealed to be making hollowfication on love,kensei etc..it was shown in the TBTP arc

[benelori]

i do have one question, when did Aizen even learn of the Hougyoku in the first place?. i mean, Urahara first showed it to Tessai and still had it in his possession after he escaped to the real world with the Vaizards and Yoruichi.

another plot hole here is Aizen following all of Ichigo's battles, but on the Soukyoku Hill, he tried to kill him right there and then. plus, Kubo is basically saying Aizen only needed the Arrancar (or even a reason to invade Hueco Mundo) just for this battle to distract and destroy the Gotei 13?. you needed this many chapters for this scenario?.

and was there suppose to be more purpose for the Vaizards, other than showing up to have their asses handed to them by Aizen and Gin?.
U have some great points...about Hougyoku...he might've been looking into Urahara's work after the ban, and IIRC he did that...so he suspected Urahara of knowing about hollowfication and he was interested about his work...and that's how he found out about hougyoku...
About the other thing...manipulation of Ichigo...well, the thing is on soukyoku hill he did try to kill him, but Ichigo was still an experiment...so if he would've succeded than the experiment would've been a failure, if not than he could continue the observing of Ichigo...he didn't have any control over the grimmjow and ulq fights, so Ichigo could've died then as well, but as we know he didn't so he is a successful experiment so far...

[Saint Markus]

i do have this theory on more for the next story arc and i imagine that Ichigo's power will be a problem with the Spirit King and Royal Guard. the fact that shinigami are using hollow powers has to be a violation of sorts against the laws of the Spirit King. whatever laws were created for Soul Society, i imagine were founded by the SK himself.

i think, Aizen will win this battle and Ichigo and the vaizards will become fugitives to the Royal Guard and Sk.

Yammy by the way will be defeated by Mayuri and maybe will be introduced to a few Vastlordes, who turn out to be "good" instead of "bad".

[TheCracker]

http://img28.imageshack.us/img28/5632/clipboard01pq.jpg (http://img28.imageshack.us/i/clipboard01pq.jpg/)

Who the heck is Achiki? Oo

[UnknownQuincy]

I wondered that myself... I couldn't figure out what it is a reference to off the top of my head... the context is really unclear.

[freshseth83]

what i think is going to happen is those two bodies mayuri found in szayel's lab are experiments of faux bodies in the same way Urahara has been using them. But there must be something special and different about them. We know from Kubo that they will play an important part in the future. So either they are two characters that are being experimented on or there is something different about them. mayuri went through some time to get access to this lab but when he found those two bodies hanging up he had a crazy look on his face, as did Renji and Ishida. I wonder what those two beings were. Maybe Nel's brothers? Their bodies look similar don't they? Come to think of it, isn't Nel still around?

[Bromamura]

Reply to Mifune's post.

He wasn't really getting pummelled at all.

then perhaps I could refer you to Specsavers-they make excellent quality glasses at affordable prices lmao.
http://www.mangatoshokan.com/read/Bleach/Maximum7/339/16
http://www.mangatoshokan.com/read/Bleach/Maximum7/354/20
:oh


And if you are disputing who won
Since when? I was simply asking you a question.

Another question I have is how did Hitsugaya go from needing an ice clone to survive Harrabel's casual initial attack (he also commented on the fact that he was surprised by the massive increase in speed and power), to being able to dodge her later more serious attacks?
He certainly doens't have mood swings like Ichigo.

The fight for me is just too full of inconcistencies to be taken seriously. All I'm doing is poiniting out such inconsistencies in the hope that someone could give a plausable explanation. As for the result of the fight I couldn't care less.

[Yans86]

Not saying that he got hit even when she was unreleased.....
As I see it while her power improved,differently from Ulquiorra and GJ her release enhance more her specific power(control water) then his speed or physical power...which is plausible seeing how it work out for Ichigo and those two but not for example for Barragan and likely Stark...

[Xerneas]

http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/397/06/
Don'u find strange that u would fight Renji/Byakuya and Kenpachi when your power happened to rivals theirs?
Whaty does this say to u!! U can't prove me wrong and u can't negate what the manga says and proves....if u really can't understand it...be it...we can agree that we disagree on this matter and finish this discussion here.

...All you keep doing is making my argument stronger. Back then Ichigo was better (not stronger technically) because Ogihci didn't come out yet. His powers went haywire after the Byakuya fight and his Ban Kai hasn't been the same since. Its been a theory thats been held by many people for ages, and Kubo FINALLY confirmed it last chapter. Ichigo isn't performing like he should be.

The whole "fighting stronger enemies therefore his Ban Kai looks worse" argument never worked anyways, because I can assure you the likes of Dordonnii, Grimmjow and R1 Ulquiorra aren't stronger than Byakuya. Nevermind that, as you yourself said, his Shinigami form has 2x Captain reiatsu (in the Arrancar Arc anyway), which none of those people come close to. You probably think otherwise though, since you have Arrancar on a golden pedestal despite their atrocious track record.

So, to repeat so that you finally get it, techically, Ichigo is much stronger now, but he's performing worse because he lost control of his powers. Thats why Aizen expected him to be much better but he's not showing it. The Vizard training didn't work, because he still kept underperforming, and we know that Ogihci refused to give him all his power too. The mere fact that Ichigo needed Ban Kai at all to fight Dordonnii (or Grimmjow for that matter), invalidates your entire argument. Do you get it now? :eyeroll
[hr]

Since when? I was simply asking you a question.

Another question I have is how did Hitsugaya go from needing an ice clone to survive Harrabel's casual initial attack (he also commented on the fact that he was surprised by the massive increase in speed and power), to being able to dodge her later more serious attacks?
He certainly doens't have mood swings like Ichigo.

The fight for me is just too full of inconcistencies to be taken seriously. All I'm doing is poiniting out such inconsistencies in the hope that someone could give a plausable explanation. As for the result of the fight I couldn't care less.

Its simple. Hitsugaya was smart, because he knew he was outclassed by Hallibel in physical strength and close combat speed. She wrecked him with a big slash and then easily dodged his point-blank sneak attack. After that, he stayed far away from her and played to his strength, which is long-range attacks. Didn't help that she was using water and was content to stall until there was enough moisture for her, either. So really there wasn't any big inconsistency. In terms of powerlevel that is. The Ice Mirror was indeed a massive fiasco, but it seems that Kubo has a liking for creating retcons by breaking the 4th wall, so just move past it otherwise you go crazy.

The fact remains that Hitsu completely overpowered her with his Flower Funeral technique and she would have frozen to death without WW. Trust me, it took me a long time to admit this.....

[Hystzen]

...All you keep doing is making my argument stronger. Back then Ichigo was better (not stronger technically) because Ogihci didn't come out yet. His powers went haywire after the Byakuya fight and his Ban Kai hasn't been the same since. Its been a theory thats been held by many people for ages, and Kubo FINALLY confirmed it last chapter. Ichigo isn't performing like he should be.

The whole "fighting stronger enemies therefore his Ban Kai looks worse" argument never worked anyways, because I can assure you the likes of Dordonnii, Grimmjow and R1 Ulquiorra aren't stronger than Byakuya. Nevermind that, as you yourself said, his Shinigami form has 2x Captain reiatsu (in the Arrancar Arc anyway), which none of those people come close to. You probably think otherwise though, since you have Arrancar on a golden pedestal despite their atrocious track record.

So, to repeat so that you finally get it, techically, Ichigo is much stronger now, but he's performing worse because he lost control of his powers. Thats why Aizen expected him to be much better but he's not showing it. The Vizard training didn't work, because he still kept underperforming, and we know that Ogihci refused to give him all his power too. The mere fact that Ichigo needed Ban Kai at all to fight Dordonnii (or Grimmjow for that matter), invalidates your entire argument. Do you get it now? :eyeroll
<hr noshade size="1">


Its simple. Hitsugaya was smart, because he knew he was outclassed by Hallibel in physical strength and close combat speed. She wrecked him with a big slash and then easily dodged his point-blank sneak attack. After that, he stayed far away from her and played to his strength, which is long-range attacks. Didn't help that she was using water and was content to stall until there was enough moisture for her, either. So really there wasn't any big inconsistency. In terms of powerlevel that is. The Ice Mirror was indeed a massive fiasco, but it seems that Kubo has a liking for creating retcons by breaking the 4th wall, so just move past it otherwise you go crazy.

The fact remains that Hitsu completely overpowered her with his Flower Funeral technique and she would have frozen to death without WW. Trust me, it took me a long time to admit this.....

true but hitsu still needed vizards to keep alive after then aizen ruined it. the only gotei that did good against a espada was shunusi yes vizards joined in but he didnt need bankai..hitsu is the worst to me out of the gotei 13 and the fact kubo keeps him around for fanboys well rabid fangirls is more annoying


Question: why do people think unohana is a good fighter and strong nothing really proves it just a remark shunsui said

[Revolation]

i do have this theory on more for the next story arc and i imagine that Ichigo's power will be a problem with the Spirit King and Royal Guard. the fact that shinigami are using hollow powers has to be a violation of sorts against the laws of the Spirit King. whatever laws were created for Soul Society, i imagine were founded by the SK himself.

i think, Aizen will win this battle and Ichigo and the vaizards will become fugitives to the Royal Guard and Sk.

Yammy by the way will be defeated by Mayuri and maybe will be introduced to a few Vastlordes, who turn out to be "good" instead of "bad".

the whole point of owning central 46 was to destroy such ideologies, and yamma seemed to had softened up after central 46 was killed by aizen when it comes to rules and regulations. you can tell he was a real stictler in the SS arc.
that point of view of hollowification being bad was shown in a "flashback arc". that just goes to show that that way of thinking is gone.

to have royal dimension arc bring back something so old would just be rehash.

who agrees with me.
[hr]




Question: why do people think unohana is a good fighter and strong nothing really proves it just a remark shunsui said

the same reason chuck norris fans don't know what the heck i'm talking about when i mention about "way of the dragon"

also the fact that shunsui a senior captain is kind of scared of unohana at certain times, says something. then theres the fact that unohana can be scary at times herself(hospital scene with 11 squad members)

it's called foreshadowing
[hr]

...All you keep doing is making my argument stronger. Back then Ichigo was better (not stronger technically) because Ogihci didn't come out yet. His powers went haywire after the Byakuya fight and his Ban Kai hasn't been the same since. Its been a theory thats been held by many people for ages, and Kubo FINALLY confirmed it last chapter. Ichigo isn't performing like he should be.

The whole "fighting stronger enemies therefore his Ban Kai looks worse" argument never worked anyways, because I can assure you the likes of Dordonnii, Grimmjow and R1 Ulquiorra aren't stronger than Byakuya. Nevermind that, as you yourself said, his Shinigami form has 2x Captain reiatsu (in the Arrancar Arc anyway), which none of those people come close to. You probably think otherwise though, since you have Arrancar on a golden pedestal despite their atrocious track record.

So, to repeat so that you finally get it, techically, Ichigo is much stronger now, but he's performing worse because he lost control of his powers. Thats why Aizen expected him to be much better but he's not showing it. The Vizard training didn't work, because he still kept underperforming, and we know that Ogihci refused to give him all his power too. The mere fact that Ichigo needed Ban Kai at all to fight Dordonnii (or Grimmjow for that matter), invalidates your entire argument. Do you get it now? :eyeroll
<hr noshade size="1">





well it's that time again.

A main reason I think Ichigo hasn't learned any new moves is because of the hollow in power, but since the hollow is in power of zangetsu, does that mean he himself(the hollow) knows more moves for ichigo to learn?

I explain this better in another post:


we both know ichigo's bankai falls short, with him having the same technique in bankai as it does in shikai. heck, kubo is actually a genius for making ichigo's faliure of a bankai be believable for THIS long by distracting us readers with nice shiny hollow powers and a different colored getsuga tenshou that sometimes gets bigger. plus giving us a reason for why his bankai is bad by doing the 3-day bankai training thing

fact is, ichigo can't connect with zangetsu. i explained why in an earlier post:


i basically explain ichigo's lack of development in strength(no joke here man) in my sig. I have a link about ichigo's development.

yes ichigo ACTUALLY HASN'T been growing in strength at all, despite, going from getting owned by grimjow, to beating him and lasting more than a second against ULQ all within one day(this arc has been like 4 years long in real life but is actually been like a morning and a beggining of a afternoon in bleach time:blink)

he still is incompetent with his power.

basically he can't advance with his shinigami powers because shirosaki IS zangetsu now, so he further relies on his hollow powers which put a strain on his powers since his hollow is also his zanpaktou.:darn and he is afraid of his hollow powers WHICH FURTHER hamper his already dampered shinigami powers, and to top it all off, his hollow powers aren't working correctly right now.

basically a domino effect of fail in a nutshell:amuse

does that make sense?

[Yans86]

...All you keep doing is making my argument stronger. Back then Ichigo was better (not stronger technically) because Ogihci didn't come out yet. His powers went haywire after the Byakuya fight and his Ban Kai hasn't been the same since. Its been a theory thats been held by many people for ages, and Kubo FINALLY confirmed it last chapter. Ichigo isn't performing like he should be.

U see,u don't read my post and answer always the same thing.Not talking about this nonsense of making ur argument stronger lol
Show me every fluctuation in his bankai power after he subdued his hollow....ops,u can't cause there's nothing like it.
Since u really can't understand last chapter and Aizen speech and u like to come out with non-sense assumption just stay on it...
Aizen says that he is way stronger then he is showing...of course he is,he didn't show the full power of his new mask as well as his new form.
Everyone has witnessed his new development,even Rukia....it really looks like u r he only one that is not seeing it...



The whole "fighting stronger enemies therefore his Ban Kai looks worse" argument never worked anyways, because I can assure you the likes of Dordonnii, Grimmjow and R1 Ulquiorra aren't stronger than Byakuya. Nevermind that, as you yourself said, his Shinigami form has 2x Captain reiatsu (in the Arrancar Arc anyway), which none of those people come close to. You probably think otherwise though, since you have Arrancar on a golden pedestal despite their atrocious track record.

So, to repeat so that you finally get it, techically, Ichigo is much stronger now, but he's performing worse because he lost control of his powers. Thats why Aizen expected him to be much better but he's not showing it. The Vizard training didn't work, because he still kept underperforming, and we know that Ogihci refused to give him all his power too. The mere fact that Ichigo needed Ban Kai at all to fight Dordonnii (or Grimmjow for that matter), invalidates your entire argument. Do you get it now? :eyeroll
<hr noshade size="1">

It's obvious that Byakuya is stronger then Dordonii...but stronger then R1 Ulquiorra when he feared Ichigo's GT in SS,he got his bankai deflected easily,he couldn't match his speed and he had Ichigo run around him in circle without having the ability to keep up with him???u surely like to forget things :-P

ALso funny,I said before that his shinigami form still improved in HM...see his last fight with Ulquiorra,he could also cut him while before he was totally powerless......but itì's okay,keep ignoring things.....

And sorry,u are making a big assumption on 2 words said by Aizen while ignoring all the contest and the explanation he made......seriously,u can do better then this :-P





Its simple. Hitsugaya was smart, because he knew he was outclassed by Hallibel in physical strength and close combat speed. She wrecked him with a big slash and then easily dodged his point-blank sneak attack. After that, he stayed far away from her and played to his strength, which is long-range attacks. Didn't help that she was using water and was content to stall until there was enough moisture for her, either. So really there wasn't any big inconsistency. In terms of powerlevel that is. The Ice Mirror was indeed a massive fiasco, but it seems that Kubo has a liking for creating retcons by breaking the 4th wall, so just move past it otherwise you go crazy.

The fact remains that Hitsu completely overpowered her with his Flower Funeral technique and she would have frozen to death without WW. Trust me, it took me a long time to admit this.....

We surely have a different concept of power....overhyped and fanbased fighters always comes on top destroying their enemy when they really didn't....while the bad guys are always undervalued and downgrade with twisted reasoning....
U know ,when I think about overpowering I think about Halibel getting defeated with 2 slashes,Shinji overpowering GJ with a single cero,Aizen's pwnage,OldYama pwing WW,WW pwning Ukitake,Ichigo destroying Dordoni with a single slash,Chad overpowering the privaron......
Well stick to your blindness I don't really care thought...

[clodhopper]

Question: why do people think unohana is a good fighter and strong nothing really proves it just a remark shunsui said
Well, I can't speak for everyone but I think it has to do with the fact she's a captain in the 13 protection squads. Plus Kubo's created a character with alot of mystique about her. Like why didn't Aizen attack her when they were in the Court of Purewood Towers? How is it that during the TBTP arc we saw Shunsui visibly worried about offending her? Revolation mentioned her scaring the members of the 11th Squad and while that does lend credence to her aura we should keep in mind that most of the members of that squad tend to act tougher than they really are. (don't worry Rev, I still think you're aces on these boards ;) ) Plus there was Shinji's comment to Ichigo about bringing her back instead of Orihime due to the former's battle prowess over the latter's.

[conn-man]

i agree with yans, i think ichigo lost his bankai speed and will get it back in due time, im waiting for byakuya to confirm this when he sees how much slower ichigo is in bankai now.

the moment when ichigo was running in circles around byakuya was a huge moment in their fight that was commented on continuously through out the fight by both of them. i think that ichigo getting back his bankai speed is going to be the power up he gets for his shinigami side later on so he doesnt have to rely soley on the mask anymore.

[Revolation]

U see,u don't read my post and answer always the same thing.Not talking about this nonsense of making ur argument stronger lol
Show me every fluctuation in his bankai power after he subdued his hollow....ops,u can't cause there's nothing like it.
Since u really can't understand last chapter and Aizen speech and u like to come out with non-sense assumption just stay on it...
Aizen says that he is way stronger then he is showing...of course he is,he didn't show the full power of his new mask as well as his new form.
Everyone has witnessed his new development,even Rukia....it really looks like u r he only one that is not seeing it...




It's obvious that Byakuya is stronger then Dordonii...but stronger then R1 Ulquiorra when he feared Ichigo's GT in SS,he got his bankai deflected easily,he couldn't match his speed and he had Ichigo run around him in circle without having the ability to keep up with him???u surely like to forget things :-P

ALso funny,I said before that his shinigami form still improved in HM...see his last fight with Ulquiorra,he could also cut him while before he was totally powerless......but itì's okay,keep ignoring things.....

And sorry,u are making a big assumption on 2 words said by Aizen while ignoring all the contest and the explanation he made......seriously,u can do better then this :-P






We surely have a different concept of power....overhyped and fanbased fighters always comes on top destroying their enemy when they really didn't....while the bad guys are always undervalued and downgrade with twisted reasoning....
U know ,when I think about overpowering I think about Halibel getting defeated with 2 slashes,Shinji overpowering GJ with a single cero,Aizen's pwnage,OldYama pwing WW,WW pwning Ukitake,Ichigo destroying Dordoni with a single slash,Chad overpowering the privaron......
Well stick to your blindness I don't really care thought...

wait when ichigo fought ulq R1, didn't he have the mask on? ichigo's mask technically helps his shinigami powers. he doesn't do anything hollow like until ichigonator. no ceros, no sonido, no nothing.
so him cutting ulq is not shinigami advancement. unless i'm wrong. i'm not against your views, as i've already stated my views above your last post.

http://mangahelpers.com/forum/showpost.php?p=1865550&postcount=896

[Senbonzakuracero]

Doing some research i noticed Kenpachi used both hands against ichigo

http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/112/09/

even if just briefly, it didnt work

[Bromamura]

Its simple. Hitsugaya was smart, because he knew he was outclassed by Hallibel in physical strength and close combat speed. She wrecked him with a big slash and then easily dodged his point-blank sneak attack.
Which is followed immediately by him dodging her counterattack if I remembered correctly.


After that, he stayed far away from her and played to his strength, which is long-range attacks.
The range wasn't that long at all, the distance between the two for most of the fight were hardly greater than that which was originally between them when Harribel first released, it should have been easily overcame by the massive gap in speed that was initially suggested. The fact that he had no problem dodging her attacks while she was chasing him around firing La Gota made it appear as if they're at the same level of speed.

[hakuthehedgehog]

The range wasn't that long at all, the distance between the two for most of the fight were hardly greater than that which was originally between them when Harribel first released, it should have been easily overcame by the massive gap in speed that was initially suggested. The fact that he had no problem dodging her attacks while she was chasing him around firing La Gota made it appear as if they're at the same level of speed.

But, before Harribel released, they took turns at attacking each other.
After they released and Hitsugaya saw how outclassed he was at the moment, he went on the defensive until he could use that overpowered attack.

[freshseth83]

shunsui is still the best performing captain. taking out primera espada in shikai does it for me and should do it for anyone. Hitsugaya got a good shot off but he said he hasn't used many of the techniques he showed against harribel in bankai. The ice flower tower or whatever it's called being the main one. My guess is if Aizen didn't have KS to use the captains would have owned him, maybe not one on one, but definitely together. We see in the latest chapter he got hit with an attack from Isshin, he must not be under KS. Ichigo got off an attack against Aizen- he isn't under KS. Are we to believe that Ichigo and Isshin are better than any captain just because they didn't defeat Aizen? I think not. But I do HOPE we get to see exactly what it is Isshin was before as his life as a shinigami. I am hoping he was at least high ranked captain. And another thing to clear up, just because you have captain class reiatsu doesn't mean you're stronger than a captain. It was said that numerous shinigami have captain class reiatsu in the TBTP arc with Rukia's old friend talking to Ukitake. Being a captain and having reiatsu of a captain or even 2x the level isn't saying ichigo is stronger than a captain. But i would think according to Unohana 2x captain level reiatsu would be ample to give Aizen a run for his money.

[tairas]

guys i have some questions
1) are the arancars vastro lord or not
2)they say wen a quincy kills a holow hes spirit dies as well
why do they allow ishida to kill hollows?
3) members of the royal guard are stronger than yama or not
he says hes the strongest shinigamy born

[Hystzen]

shunsui is still the best performing captain. taking out primera espada in shikai does it for me and should do it for anyone. Hitsugaya got a good shot off but he said he hasn't used many of the techniques he showed against harribel in bankai. The ice flower tower or whatever it's called being the main one. My guess is if Aizen didn't have KS to use the captains would have owned him, maybe not one on one, but definitely together. We see in the latest chapter he got hit with an attack from Isshin, he must not be under KS. Ichigo got off an attack against Aizen- he isn't under KS. Are we to believe that Ichigo and Isshin are better than any captain just because they didn't defeat Aizen? I think not. But I do HOPE we get to see exactly what it is Isshin was before as his life as a shinigami. I am hoping he was at least high ranked captain. And another thing to clear up, just because you have captain class reiatsu doesn't mean you're stronger than a captain. It was said that numerous shinigami have captain class reiatsu in the TBTP arc with Rukia's old friend talking to Ukitake. Being a captain and having reiatsu of a captain or even 2x the level isn't saying ichigo is stronger than a captain. But i would think according to Unohana 2x captain level reiatsu would be ample to give Aizen a run for his money.

i agree with the fact that shunsui is only one who beat a espada in shikai. hitsu is the weak link in the gotei 13 if he calms down and not be so annoying he might do better even more is the fact he just makes up a move everyfight and does nothing. the fact that aizen beat the teamwork using KS shows his strength not capable to deal with multiple attacks. he coundnt even cope with ichigo attacking after yamma attacks ;). it was also hitsu fault aizen beat shinji, shunsui etc coz he left them all open. now he got a leg and arm missing but he healed and repeat the same mistakes but he still a captain damn wierd to me

[Yans86]

Ichigo's power fluctuation due to his hollow interfering with his bankai started in SS,where noted by Ulquiorra and ended when he had his inner battle to subdue him.

http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/193/17/
http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/193/19/
http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/193/20/

As seen in this chapter until him subjugating his hollow,everytime his eyes started to turn black due to his hollow interfering evebn f he was in bankai his body wasn't able to perform. FACT.(not saying that having it interefer always drained all his power in both shinigami and hollow side as seen in his GJ meeting on earth and against Byakuya)

Go read back also his fight with Hiyori when they talked about his fear not being able to unable his hollow to interfere and his incapability of fighting in that moment.

Also,u keep ignoring Ichigo's grow in power throught HM....how can u ignore the fact that every fight make him stronger???everytime his mask changed he got stronger in both shinigami and hollow side???and that in the end reaching R2 form is a sign of both his shinigami and hollow power growth???

http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/220/11/

Ichigo and his hollow are equal,like his hollow learned bankai the moment Ichigo learned bankai,his shinigami power growth while his hollow power growth.
Seen how he grew till now I don't know what r u really arguing about!!!


Seriously,I don't really understand how u can believe that after more then 200 chapters Ichigo is still weaker then the captains!!!

Also,to prove everything I stated: http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/340/17/
MOre clear then this about Ichigo development and improvement in power,fight after fight,injury/healing after injury/healing ,in both shinigami and hollow power there's nothing else to say!

PS
Last fight with Ulquiorra,with the same dinamics his power always worked.With mask he almost broke Ulquiorra's sword which would have unabled him to resurrect(not saying that he wasn't able to keep up with him unreleased anymore...).
He still couldn't fight against Ulquiorra released,but again like many other times,coming back from a critical injury gave him another power boost which result were: a new mask,the second release form and 2x captain lvl reiatsu...

[hakuthehedgehog]

Ichigo is still weaker than the captains because his hollow and him are fighting against each other.
It's like Kenpaichi: he is very strong, but since he doesn't listen to his sword, they make each other weaker.
The same rule applies to Ichigo: since he and his hollow are fighting, they can't be at full strenght, and Ichigo can't use his Bankai properly because of his hollow.

[Xerneas]

Don't know what you said to get into trouble, but whatever. You still don't get it. I explained it again in my previous post (which was deleted apparently). For the last time....


Seriously,I don't really understand how u can believe that after more then 200 chapters Ichigo is still weaker then the captains!!!

This is the root of the problem. You are not understanding me. Ichigo is not technically "weaker" than the Captains he defeated before. I never said he was. But he's performing FAR worse than them. Which means that the opponents that gave him so much trouble are not as powerful as they appear. What is so confusing about this? Its simple logic.

Ichigo struggled badly against Grimmjow whilst Kenpachi basically one-shot #5 when he got serious, and Byakuya dispatched #7 (which would have been even easier if Rukia wasn't there). The proof is right in front of your face. -_-;

People thought that Kubo lost it and messed up the powerlevels, but he didn't. Ichigo has access to more power now, but he's MUCH less able to use it than in the SS Arc. If he had kept that level of proficiency, he would be performing a lot better in the Arrancar Arc - which is what Aizen was talking about. Ichigo has been underachieving for the entire arc, making people like Grimmjow and R1 Ulquiorra look great. Your problem is that you can't fathom these overrated Arrancars losing against mid-level Captains when the evidence is right there.

Now, apparently, Ichigo is "back". Only time will tell, but if he lasts more than one chapter against Ban Kai Gin, with only his own Ban Kai, your entire flawed argument goes flying out the window. Unless you think Grimmjow is stronger than Gin too. :eyeroll

[freshseth83]

I don't think Ichigo is weaker than all the captains, but most of them. With the exception of Hitsugaya and maybe soi-fon, physical strength is not ichigo's strong suit. It's a combination of everything he has though. I think he's more competent and better able to defeat people than most captains except for maybe Byakuya Shunsui Ukitake Unohana? Urahara and Yama. I don't think any captain besides those guys would be better off against an opponent than Ichigo. Well maybe Soi-Fon because she has a unique ability even without bankai. Ichigo is up there but he has to have the will to win. He had that will when he was in Hueco Mundo because he had to rescue orihime. He had that will when he was in Soul Society because he had to rescue Rukia. What's the will now? To protect KT? There was doubt in his mind. He seems to lose it when he has doubt. When he doesn't have any doubt that's when he can win. He owned Grimjow in their 2nd meeting in KT because he believed he was much stronger than him. His mask made him unbeatable. That is until he seen that even how much stronger he grew, his attacks weren't anything to Ulqiorra. But seeing Orihime with him made his 'heart' grow. That boost is always there when something or someone important to him is facing certain doom. Thats what brought out his hollow against Ulqiorra's 2nd form. The will to protect Orihime. That will was 'help her'. Hopefully his will to win has come back now that his dad smacked him up. Isshin knew exactly what to do to Ichigo in order for him to fight for real. He needed to get put back into place and to realize, 'look, no matter what the circumstances, there is always a way' He realized what Rukia told him. And he realized the struggle that his dad had inside of himself. But that struggle was put aside to beat Aizen. Now Ichigo has to put aside his own struggles to defeat Gin. can't wait!

[Gran Maestro]

I agree with Arceus. Unohana said it best, Ichigo's reiatsu is crude (http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/382/03/). His reiatsu is strong but his strength is much weaker than his reiatsu suggests. Ichigo bankai+mask struggled against Grimmjow, IMO every captain in Gotei 13 can defeat Grimmjow without that much trouble. Right now Ichigo is at low-tier captain level at best, so I don't expect him to stand a chance against Gin's bankai. Of course things may change after a psychotherapy session with Zangetsu or Shirosaki. :)

[Hystzen]

the problem with ichigo is he cant control his sprit pressure and still clueless on how to fight he has the power just needs to learn how the hell to use it. im sure ichigo is stronger than some of gotei13 but would still lose has he doesnt have a good fighting technique

[tairas]

i think ichigo mey not be stronger than all the captains (i mean that he dosent need bankai to defeat komamura ) but dont forget somethink people like Kenpachi Byakuya
shunsui have been traning for like 100-200 years not to speak about shunsu more than 1000 but ichigo is sinigami like 2 years and can fight equaly with a captain
ischigo has potential i bet is 2 years he will be stronger than all the captains
not to say far stronger

[En Yang Ji]

If Ichigo had full control of his reiastu during the soul society arc, wouldn't that mean it was a lot weaker than it is now? Ichigo without his mask, currently has double the reiastu of a captain. If Ichigo had that much reiastu during the SS arc and full control of it, he should of been able to easily beat Byakuya.

So how did Ichigo gain so much reiastu?

[Katz]

I agree with Arceus. Unohana said it best, Ichigo's reiatsu is crude (http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/382/03/). His reiatsu is strong but his strength is much weaker than his reiatsu suggests. Ichigo bankai+mask struggled against Grimmjow, IMO every captain in Gotei 13 can defeat Grimmjow without that much trouble. Right now Ichigo is at low-tier captain level at best, so I don't expect him to stand a chance against Gin's bankai. Of course things may change after a psychotherapy session with Zangetsu or Shirosaki. :)


I rather see Unohana or even "big boobs" take Gin on, but Ichigo does need some revenge from the past encounters with Gin

[Hystzen]

I rather see Unohana or even "big boobs" take Gin on, but Ichigo does need some revenge from the past encounters with Gin

could be worse could be hitsu taking on gin again and lose fully this time we never really seen Gin fight serious he was stalling hitsu in SS and was also stalling ichigo i would rather have as you nicely put it 'big boobs' coz they have history but noooo we get dumped with ichigo this is his make or break he fails again he is a pure loser of a main character :p

[Mirage56]

Ok, so totally off the current topic, but i just noticed..and this has probably been mentioned before...but by the looks of the, having TBTP end at chapter "-97"..we still have 96 chapters of the past to cover, probably most will be taken up by the Isshin arc or something else....oooor i could be totally wrong

[kkck]

Ok, so totally off the current topic, but i just noticed..and this has probably been mentioned before...but by the looks of the, having TBTP end at chapter "-97"..we still have 96 chapters of the past to cover, probably most will be taken up by the Isshin arc or something else....oooor i could be totally wrong

In hope not.... I can't imagine a 2 year long gaiden or flashback.... TBPA was long enough...

[freshseth83]

never thought of that, 96 chapters? i don't know about all that. It could well take place throughout the main story though. Maybe half way through the next arc(s). If that's the case maybe Isshin has an arc to himself that will take up 10 chapters maybe more. I would say maybe 15 chapters that would be a 'short' arc. Maybe after this Isshin arc if it is to be, and if it is an arc, to be a flashback or 'chapters of the past' that would leave a lot of back story still to cover. I wouldn't think a still 80 chapters of back story would remain.

[Yans86]

I agree with Arceus. Unohana said it best, Ichigo's reiatsu is crude (http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/382/03/). His reiatsu is strong but his strength is much weaker than his reiatsu suggests. Ichigo bankai+mask struggled against Grimmjow, IMO every captain in Gotei 13 can defeat Grimmjow without that much trouble. Right now Ichigo is at low-tier captain level at best, so I don't expect him to stand a chance against Gin's bankai. Of course things may change after a psychotherapy session with Zangetsu or Shirosaki. :)

-_- .....as always....

"your reiatsu is crude so is not cut out for things like this..."
Where does it suggest that is strenght is weaker???
It's reiatsu is not adabt for refined application like kido and such which brings him close to people like:
_Renji (that can't use kido)
_likely Ikkaku
_Koma(stats)
_Omaeda
_SoiFon (don't misdjuge shunkou with kido...look at her stats)
All people that focus their fight on PURE STRENGHT/pure speed/energy blast(not kido based)......

U say that he struggled against GJ??
Last fight he used his mask only to stop his Gran Ry Cero from hitting Orihime,then they both went in release form and in mask....
But I guess u like to forget things....
And well,the match was on equal ground for most part of the fight until Ichigo got his resolve from "annoying Orihime" and cut him down....

He almost died against Ulquiorra......but last fight he could match him without mask and like Ulquiorra said he became stronger after his fight with GJ....

Ur points are full of fallacies,I'm sorry......

Guys,after SS arc and before it everything turned around Ichigo'growth.POinted this out for more then 200+ chapeters,u keep on saying something that was never stated in the manga:
_"the non sense of him needing to come back to SS lvl....which would kill him in 2 split second in such a war..."....
r u being serious????

Anyway...dictionary:

RECOVER:1. To get back; regain.
2. To restore (oneself) to a normal state
3. To regain a normal or usual condition, as of health.

GROWTH:a. The process of growing.
b. Full development; maturity.
2. Development from a lower or simpler to a higher or more complex form; evolution.
3. An increase, as in size, number, value, or strength; extension or expansion

How can u keep on saying that Ichigo has to come back to SS lvl.....that is called RECOVERY!!!
How can u keep on negating what is it said by many different characters,countless time just to back up something that isn't even in the vocabulary of all those speeches???Not saying in the VOCABULARY....
Growth and recover are 2 different words that has 2 different meanings....everyone in the manga talks about his growths....the way u come up to say "it's recover" not only are non-sense,but also negate facts...
Quite funny thought,since u r the guys the always try to bring up "MANGA FACT"........doing it out of context is non-sense,but I guess it can't be helped...

We won't ever see again Ichigo fighting only in bankai till the end of this manga except against weak hollows and such....r u going to keep on singing this same song till the end???come on....

Not saying....SS level.....control of bankai......he learned to use GT in bankai mode by his hollow(FACT http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/219/17/)........what control r u talking about?
When he lost control of bankai he could barely move his body and his eyes started to turn black due to his holllow interfering...after subjugating him this problem never came up again so....what r u talking about????just backing up with "random"(which r not really random....) assumption takin and wrapping up things out of context is not a way of arguing....

[Random101]

Uh, he did struggle against Grimmjaw. Nnoitra alone outright confirms it, by both saying it and being able to so effortlessly kick his ass after that. Granted overall they weren't remotely that far off in terms of power, but by very definition that's a struggle.

Similarly Ichigo would have died against Ulquiorra once he got serious if Orihime hadn't blocked a blow for him, or bare minimum taken a pretty bad injury. Seriously, once Ulquiorra started seriously going after him, Ichigo couldn't even follow in just bankai, skipping straight to the mask immediately after telling Orihime to back off.

Granted, make no mistake, Ichigo's strength is variable, being whatever the hell the plot wants at this point, but of late he's been shifted to be seriously low teir even in masked state. I have no clue why, given masked he should be above all but the top 5, but what little remains of the shattered fragments of the powerscale haven't been favorable to him of late.

Granted I'd say he could take Gin regardless as I don't buy into the dude's hype, but ignoring Ichinator for obvious reasons his current track record isn't all that good.

[Yans86]

How could Ichigo win against Noitora???he was totally drained out after his fight against GJ(they fought on equal ground with the usual swing of an equal fight).....Noitora butted-in 2 seconds later....

Random101,I agree with u,but u can't ignore one thing:
-Ichigo's growth....
In their first meeting in HM Ichigo vs Ulquiorra:
_Ichigo couldn't cut Ulquiorra in both shinigami and shinigami/hollow form...
_Ichigo couldn't follow his speed even while Ulquiorra was "holding back" in both forms...
_Ichigo couldn't defend from Ulquiorra's cero in both form

In the second fight both Ichigo and Ulquiorra sayied that his strenght improved again!!!
Of course u r right in saying that when Ulquiorra (unreleased) started to push his speed,Ichigo had to use his mask.But is also true that while before he couldn't do s**t with mask,this time he was destroying him pushing him to release.(he almost destroyed his sword unabling Ulquiorra's ability to release).
All simply explained in his natural growth after each fight/almost death situation!!
....he almost died for the second time....he pulled out a new power again (R2)....

Prediction:
Once Ichigo goes R2,Aizen will use his power to do something particular!

Anyway,in the "king and his horse" chapter one thing was made clear:
Ichigo's shinigami and hollow power are equal.....2 different beings with the same form,abilities and strenght......the difference between the king and the horse is not in power,is in istinct/resolve....when one prevails the other has to lend his power and viceversa....
Seen how Ichigo's "with mask"/hollow side/hybrid form grew,sign of his hollow power getting stronger,it's obvious that his shinigami power parallely grew in the same manner.
That's why is not a case that after his fight against Ulquiorra he reached 2x captain level reiatsu in shinigami form....

[jaymizzo]

How could Ichigo win against Noitora???he was totally drained out after his fight against GJ(they fought on equal ground with the usual swing of an equal fight).....Noitora butted-in 2 seconds later....

Random101,I agree with u,but u can't ignore one thing:
-Ichigo's growth....
In their first meeting in HM Ichigo vs Ulquiorra:
_Ichigo couldn't cut Ulquiorra in both shinigami and shinigami/hollow form...
_Ichigo couldn't follow his speed even while Ulquiorra was "holding back" in both forms...
_Ichigo couldn't defend from Ulquiorra's cero in both form

In the second fight both Ichigo and Ulquiorra sayied that his strenght improved again!!!
Of course u r right in saying that when Ulquiorra (unreleased) started to push his speed,Ichigo had to use his mask.But is also true that while before he couldn't do s**t with mask,this time he was destroying him pushing him to release.(he almost destroyed his sword unabling Ulquiorra's ability to release).
All simply explained in his natural growth after each fight/almost death situation!!
....he almost died for the second time....he pulled out a new power again (R2)....

Prediction:
Once Ichigo goes R2,Aizen will use his power to do something particular!

Anyway,in the "king and his horse" chapter one thing was made clear:
Ichigo's shinigami and hollow power are equal.....2 different beings with the same form,abilities and strenght......the difference between the king and the horse is not in power,is in istinct/resolve....when one prevails the other has to lend his power and viceversa....
Seen how Ichigo's "with mask"/hollow side/hybrid form grew,sign of his hollow power getting stronger,it's obvious that his shinigami power parallely grew in the same manner.
That's why is not a case that after his fight against Ulquiorra he reached 2x captain level reiatsu in shinigami form....

Your Kinda wrong.
When Ichigos Hollow powers Are More Dominant, His Shinigame powers Are Nerfed and vice versa.
Its preety clear tht ichigo needs to harmonize both his two spirits into one with himself inorder to reach full potential (the one aizen Was tlking about).

And maybe Gin will be the key to Ichigo Tlking to shiro and Zangetsu, and deciding to actually work as a team.

[Yans86]

http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/220/10/
http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/220/11/
http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/220/12/

There's not a dominant power,there's a dominant resolve.
Harmonizing the 2 "spirits" is correct thought if he want to pull out is R2 form which probably needs also the killing instinct as said by Shirosaki/zangetsu...

Mind this word: when Gin will push Ichigo into his second release Aizen will use Ichigo's strongest powe to do something with the hogyouku...perfect hybrid power + perfect tool = last big show of the arc....

[kkck]

Your Kinda wrong.
When Ichigos Hollow powers Are More Dominant, His Shinigame powers Are Nerfed and vice versa.
Its preety clear tht ichigo needs to harmonize both his two spirits into one with himself inorder to reach full potential (the one aizen Was tlking about).

And maybe Gin will be the key to Ichigo Tlking to shiro and Zangetsu, and deciding to actually work as a team.

Ichigo does not need to harmonize with two spirits. Zangetsu and shirosaki are two different individuals but the spiritual body they have is shared. In that sense, ichigo has only 1 spirit who holds and represents his power. It just so happens there is another secondary spirit within the first one. I would think it is possible shirosaki is not as helpful as zangetsu was though and that results in ichigo's screwed up power levels.

[jaymizzo]

Ichigo does not need to harmonize with two spirits. Zangetsu and shirosaki are two different individuals but the spiritual body they have is shared. In that sense, ichigo has only 1 spirit who holds and represents his power. It just so happens there is another secondary spirit within the first one. I would think it is possible shirosaki is not as helpful as zangetsu was though and that results in ichigo's screwed up power levels.

zangetsu and shiro are one and the same ;)...

IMO its logical for ichigo to reach his full potential only when both zang and shiro are both harmonized.. no conflict or battle for dominance

[Yans86]

Did u guys notice that Isshin used Hadou no.1???
The same Byakuya used on Rukia and Kyouraku on Chad thought...
A finger as a catalyst and a shockwave to push your enemy back..

[ramonb]

Don't know what you said to get into trouble, but whatever. You still don't get it. I explained it again in my previous post (which was deleted apparently). For the last time....



This is the root of the problem. You are not understanding me. Ichigo is not technically "weaker" than the Captains he defeated before. I never said he was. But he's performing FAR worse than them. Which means that the opponents that gave him so much trouble are not as powerful as they appear. What is so confusing about this? Its simple logic.

Ichigo struggled badly against Grimmjow whilst Kenpachi basically one-shot #5 when he got serious, and Byakuya dispatched #7 (which would have been even easier if Rukia wasn't there). The proof is right in front of your face. -_-;

People thought that Kubo lost it and messed up the powerlevels, but he didn't. Ichigo has access to more power now, but he's MUCH less able to use it than in the SS Arc. If he had kept that level of proficiency, he would be performing a lot better in the Arrancar Arc - which is what Aizen was talking about. Ichigo has been underachieving for the entire arc, making people like Grimmjow and R1 Ulquiorra look great. Your problem is that you can't fathom these overrated Arrancars losing against mid-level Captains when the evidence is right there.

Now, apparently, Ichigo is "back". Only time will tell, but if he lasts more than one chapter against Ban Kai Gin, with only his own Ban Kai, your entire flawed argument goes flying out the window. Unless you think Grimmjow is stronger than Gin too. :eyeroll

Very good, but my question is "I wonder why he is underachieving?" I wonder if its a plot construct, when fighting the more powerful enemies Ichi gets his "resolve" que the the music....and he goes and kicks ass. To be honest, when I watch the anime, thats my favorite part....when you hear that music AND YOU KNOW Ichi's gonna let loose. I keep wondering to myself which "tune" are they gonna use for the Uli fight if any. Remember the "OH UUU OH OH OHHHH, something something Pos-I-Traction" or my personal fav the one without voice "DUN DUN DUN....DUN DUN' like a guitar solo or something.

[Xerneas]

Very good, but my question is "I wonder why he is underachieving?" I wonder if its a plot construct, when fighting the more powerful enemies Ichi gets his "resolve" que the the music....and he goes and kicks ass. To be honest, when I watch the anime, thats my favorite part....when you hear that music AND YOU KNOW Ichi's gonna let loose. I keep wondering to myself which "tune" are they gonna use for the Uli fight if any. Remember the "OH UUU OH OH OHHHH, something something Pos-I-Traction" or my personal fav the one without voice "DUN DUN DUN....DUN DUN' like a guitar solo or something.

Yes, to a large extent. It was much more exciting and dramatic (at first), watching him struggle against the new mysterious characters. Arrancar were quite hyped in the beginning. Thats why we had the whole limiter drama with Hitsugaya and the VC as well - to make them look like a huge threat. But then, over time, we found out that they were actually trash in the grand scheme of things. Which made Ichigo look really, REALLY bad. Still, wouldn't have been much fun if he just showed up in SS Arc mode, kept getting stronger and stomped everyone. Which is what would have happened logically had he not have power problems.

Like, does anyone besides Yans think Grimmjow has any business lasting long against a monster like Ichigo in Shi Kai, much less Ban Kai + Mask? Yeah I don't think so. :cool:

[Hystzen]

He almost died against Ulquiorra......but last fight he could match him without mask and like Ulquiorra said he became stronger after his fight with GJ....


he did die against Ulquiorra ichigo died so his hollow took over but wasent able to fully take over as ulquiorra removed the horn and distrupted his take over and the high regen healed him but ichigo did die...that my take on it...coz we know if you think about it shirosaki see ichigo as a host that it when ichigo dies shirosaki wins and gets his body that what happened with Ulquiorra...

i dunno bout grimmy he was brutal with speed but dunno if he would have lasted against a the old SS ichigo. i still LOL when grimmjow destroys ichigo in bankai with his fists it so funny :D

[Bromamura]

But, before Harribel released, they took turns at attacking each other.
After they released and Hitsugaya saw how outclassed he was at the moment, he went on the defensive until he could use that overpowered attack.
Just because someone's on the defensive doesn't mean they're immune to being struck down by a supposedly far superior opponent.

Besides isn't Hitsugaya the one who yelled don't underestimate me while charging Harribel with his ice dragon? Which is followed up later by his Guncho Tsurara or whatever? That's not exactly defensive fighting to me.

[ramonb]

he did die against Ulquiorra ichigo died so his hollow took over but wasent able to fully take over as ulquiorra removed the horn and distrupted his take over and the high regen healed him but ichigo did die...that my take on it...coz we know if you think about it shirosaki see ichigo as a host that it when ichigo dies shirosaki wins and gets his body that what happened with Ulquiorra...

i dunno bout grimmy he was brutal with speed but dunno if he would have lasted against a the old SS ichigo. i still LOL when grimmjow destroys ichigo in bankai with his fists it so funny :D

No way, Ichi beat Kenpachi in SS with Shikai only (my fav fight BTW), and then kenpachi beat the #5 espade (Nio something) easily.

[Katz]

^the fight between Ken-chan and #5 was decently close, up until the point where Ken switched to two handed style.....Now imagine if he had done that against Ichigo, FIGHT over

[Revolation]

theres a problem on this forum

everybody asumes the outcomes of fights in a very dbz manner. listen up. there are no scouters in bleach. fights in general are very circumstancial. no fight between people happens the same every times just because of "power levels".
sometimes one person could win, another time somebody else could win.

i mean did you see the kenpachi fight and the byakuya fight? both ended with both fighters charging in a final blow. ~_~. and the kenpachi fight had kenpachi playing around the whole time, ichigo getting owned then coming back in a burst of power, kenpachi taking off his own eyepatch and charging. IMO it was still a draw as neither could continue fighting afterwards. zanpaktou broken or not. after that you can't honestly say the exact same result would happen if they fight again.

kenpachi was playing that whole fight, and he even admitted during the nnoitora fight that he had been rusty for a long time up until recently(basically after the ichigo fight), then not only that but he used kendo in a weakened state. imagine if he used it full power.

also we all know byakuya would basically own grimjow

ichigo beating kenpachi and byakuya means nothing anymore. i think kubo established that clear himself with the recent developments of byakuya saying nobody in the gotei 13 needs his help. seriously.

fights in general are very circumstancial. no fight between people happens the same every times just because of "power levels".

bleach fights aren't dbz fights.

enough of this "a>b, and b>c so a>c" crap that came to it's prime during the hitsu-harribel fight and won't go away. '~_~

[kkck]

zangetsu and shiro are one and the same ;)...

IMO its logical for ichigo to reach his full potential only when both zang and shiro are both harmonized.. no conflict or battle for dominance

The first time you took the bold part out of context it did not make sense. What makes you think taking it out of context a bazillion times will make it make sense?

I also have some doubt as to whether shirosaki and zangetsu are going through a battle of dominance. Last thing we saw shirosaki was clearly in control, all ichigo did was stop him from taking over. As far as we know, zangetsu is the one subservient to shirosaki. Now, whether shirosaki is as cooperative with ichigo as zangetsu was is debatable.

[Revolation]

The first time you took the bold part out of context it did not make sense. What makes you think taking it out of context a bazillion times will make it make sense?

I also have some doubt as to whether shirosaki and zangetsu are going through a battle of dominance. Last thing we saw shirosaki was clearly in control, all ichigo did was stop him from taking over. As far as we know, zangetsu is the one subservient to shirosaki. Now, whether shirosaki is as cooperative with ichigo as zangetsu was is debatable.

well, considering that ichigonator was not only stronger than any form ichigo has had before, AND ichigo now has a ichigonator mask without any fight for dominance for said upgrade is kind of weird to me

also, it seems they are going through dominance and are essentially part of each other at least

http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/112/01/
http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/112/02/

[kkck]

well, considering that ichigonator was not only stronger than any form ichigo has had before, AND ichigo now has a ichigonator mask without any fight for dominance for said upgrade is kind of weird to me

also, it seems they are going through dominance and are essentially part of each other at least

http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/112/01/
http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/112/02/

Ichigo and shirosaki being in a fight for dominance is kind of a given. Even the last time shirosaki was defeated he said he'd be back.

As for zangetsu and shirosaki, them sharing a spiritual body is fact. As shirosaki said before, the one in control in the stronger one. As it stands, shirosaki is stronger than zangetsu so he is in control.

The reason I quoted him was not to question the facts I mentioned before but rather to point out he was taking them out of context. Do ichigo, zangetsu and shirosaki share a body? Yes, they do. Are they all part of the same whole? Yes, they all are part of the same whole. Thing is, they are just part of the same whole but that does not mean they are "the same". The three of them have different drastically different personalities which is why it makes a significant difference who exactly is in control at a give time. Them sharing a body does not mean there are no differences between them.

[ryanzokuken]

the thread that originally dealt with the whole thing seems to be gone or just evading me, but i was just wondering, what's with MH being all cozy with Nick Simmons, when a month ago, we all hated him for his blatent ripoffs?

[kkck]

We still hate him -well, we don't actually hate him, hate is such a strong word- but there has not been any new development in the whole thing for a while now so there is nothing to talk about.

[White Silver King]

Now imagine if he had done that against Ichigo, FIGHT over

He did, during their final clash and Ichigo still won......Bleach is so broken.

[Xerneas]

Um, the whole thing about "BLEACH fights not being like DBZ" is a total fallacy. Aizen/Kubo recently said that Shinigami battles are battles of reiatsu, so yes, its basically the same thing. It doesn't matter if someone has an elemental advantage, which hardly happens anyway, the one with the highest reiatsu will still win. Now situational advantages are a different story - as we saw with Hisagi v Kaname. You can't judge powerlevels accurately in those scenarios, but again, they don't happen often.

Furthermore, Kenpachi/Ichigo/Grimmjow/Nnoitra are all melee fighters. There is no elemental advantage and there were no situational ones either. So the results of those fights can be taken at face value. The problem is just that some people would rather exalt the almost past-tense Espada, creating plot holes in the process, than see sense.

[Moon Stricken]

the thread that originally dealt with the whole thing seems to be gone or just evading me, but i was just wondering, what's with MH being all cozy with Nick Simmons, when a month ago, we all hated him for his blatent ripoffs?

What more could we possibly do? The fans brought attention to what he was doing, now it is up to Kubo or more specifically Viz Media on whether or not to press charges against him. His "manga" will not be published further, in my opinion, but i don't think he will be brought up on charges of plagiarism. If anything, sales of whatever copies he sold will be handed over to Viz Media and others involved with his rip-offs.

Technically if you are one of the many reading mangas online through various websites, it is also illegal. So we might be a tad hypocritical in that regard.

[Katz]

He did, during their final clash and Ichigo still won......Bleach is so broken.

he set two hands on his sword for more blocking power (I believe) not a full kendo style downward slash, but if he did then yes bleach is broken

[freshseth83]

Relating to Zaraki- using two hands and attacking with two hands is different. he didn't attack ichigo with a kendo style approach. He swung at him with one hand. If he had two hands on the sword it wasn't for an attack using kendo combined with his reiatsu. This attack was only seen vs. Nnoitra. Byakuya uses two hands but rarely attacks with both hands on the blade. Same with Shunsui- but of course with him he has two separate swords. To me Shunsui is the epitome of a real samurai. A Katana and Wakizashi, which samurais (most) would carry. I don't know if I've ever seen anyone in bleach attack with full strength using two hands on their sword besides Ichigo.

[Gran Maestro]

Aizen/Kubo recently said that Shinigami battles are battles of reiatsu, so yes, its basically the same thing. It doesn't matter if someone has an elemental advantage, which hardly happens anyway, the one with the highest reiatsu will still win.

QFT!!

If one side has a considerable reiatsu advantage, this side wins. Their relative abilities don't matter. (The only exception is Ichigo because he is the main protagonist and he is supposed to struggle.) For example, some people at another forum were arguing that Harribel was stronger than Yamaji because they thought water trumps fire. Nope, a tank of water (Harribel's reiatsu) can't extinguish a forest fire (Yama's reiatsu).

[ramonb]

Victors have to be decided by power levels. Its a manga not real life. The whole "On any given Sunday thing" can't be the basis of victors and losers. The reason I say this is that Bleach is very hierarchical....you have captains, lieutenants, 3rd/4th seats and so on. Would it be plausible for a 4th seat to come in and defeat Kenpachi/Yama? I suppose it could happen...but what would that do to the mental structure we have created in the Bleach Universe? For instance, lets play that out, lets say a 4th seat beats Kenpachi, whats would be our reaction?

A. Man that guy must have just been "on his game" that day.
B. Kenpachi was having and off day, maybe he's sick?
C. Wow that guy just got lucky is all.

or

D. Who is that guy? He must be more than just a 4th seat to have beaten Kenpachi, maybe he's got another role that we haven't found out about yet. (basically attributing that he had a higher power level than Kenpachi)
E. Is kenpachi really as powerful as we thought. (another reference to power levels)

You know, it could work if the character had 10+ fights a year, you could throw one or 2 fights in there that they just lost due to "chance", but when a character has only 1-2 fights a year, you have to make them meaningful and they have to reflect the progression or current state of the character. Think like a manga, and not like real life.

[Nafycuk]

Just random image attracted me )
http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/112/09/
Lol, Kenpachi's holding the sword with both hands ^^

[albabar]

1- Zaraki during his fight with Noitora has fatal wounds more than Ichigo s' during his battle with Grimjow .

2-Ichigo takes Intentionally Grmjows' Darts in order to protetct Inoy .
I mean Inoy and Nel caused many damages to Ichigo during this fight .
Ichigo concentrated on protecting his two girls and took many strong strikes for the sake of their safety .

3- Nel was easily able to destroy Noitora if she stayed in her mature form .
Despite the fact that she has not fought for a long time . And she always defeated Noitora in the past , and without effort .
Then , if compare Nel and Zaraki , like u did with Ichigo and Zarake , this means that Nel is stronger than Zaraki .

4- Zaraki fought Noitora after the latter had been exhausted by his fight with Nel .

5- Even if Zaraki uses his two hands against Ichigo , or more than two hands ( look at Noitora hands Lol ) ,with Zangits fighting beside Ichigo , Zaraki will certainly lose and lose and lose forever .

[White Silver King]

I just read the most awesome Unohana fanfic EVER! Here it is. (http://vesperh.livejournal.com/106536.html) Pretty much she kicks Zaraki's ass in a fight while holding back and then unleashes a fucking awesome Bankai which turns Minazuki into a third eye on her forehead that steals the life of whatever its looking at! The author describes it as "Minazuki is always drawing life from everything around it, all the time--not enough to kill off the flowers Unohana arranges in the flower-arranging classes, but enough to keep itself full charged and ready to heal. When Minazuki is in its giant floating squid form, it is focused on healing, moving that life from itself into the thing it is enveloping. When Minazuki is in bankai form, it envelopes Unohana, directing all of its healing power inward, toward her, and all its life-stealing power outward, toward whatever it is looking at. So Minazuki needs to look at you to steal your life; doesn't matter whether you're looking back at it or not. Kenpachi is just mesmerized by Minazuki's eye because there is something innately horrifying about it. So if you were going to kill Unohana, you'd probably want to be shooting long-range projectiles at her from behind, and you'd need to take her by surprise. ANd then you hope you can hit her enough times or in just the right spot so that Minazuki can't heal her before she can turn around and look at you."

Two thumbs up to this author, because this would be such a badass Bankai that IMO fits Unohana perfectly.

[kkck]

Just random image attracted me )
http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/112/09/
Lol, Kenpachi's holding the sword with both hands ^^

Note he is indeed wearing the eyepatch though. Hardly the zaraki that used kendo against noitora. When zaraki did remove the eyepatch he did not use 2 hands. Just putting it out there.

[Gran Maestro]

Kendo is more than using two hands:

Yama: Kenpachi, you have to learn kendo.

Kenpachi: Ok, what am I supposed to do?

Yama: Hold your sword with two hands.

Kenpachi: And..?

Yama: That's it, training is over, simple, ain't it?

Kenpachi: Yes, it feels good to be a "kendo master".

[Revolation]

QFT!!

If one side has a considerable reiatsu advantage, this side wins. Their relative abilities don't matter. (The only exception is Ichigo because he is the main protagonist and he is supposed to struggle.) For example, some people at another forum were arguing that Harribel was stronger than Yamaji because they thought water trumps fire. Nope, a tank of water (Harribel's reiatsu) can't extinguish a forest fire (Yama's reiatsu).

i just want to post what i posted before and the follow up with my reply


theres a problem on this forum

everybody asumes the outcomes of fights in a very dbz manner. listen up. there are no scouters in bleach. fights in general are very circumstancial. no fight between people happens the same every times just because of "power levels".
sometimes one person could win, another time somebody else could win.

i mean did you see the kenpachi fight and the byakuya fight? both ended with both fighters charging in a final blow. ~_~. and the kenpachi fight had kenpachi playing around the whole time, ichigo getting owned then coming back in a burst of power, kenpachi taking off his own eyepatch and charging. IMO it was still a draw as neither could continue fighting afterwards. zanpaktou broken or not. after that you can't honestly say the exact same result would happen if they fight again.

kenpachi was playing that whole fight, and he even admitted during the nnoitora fight that he had been rusty for a long time up until recently(basically after the ichigo fight), then not only that but he used kendo in a weakened state. imagine if he used it full power.

also we all know byakuya would basically own grimjow

ichigo beating kenpachi and byakuya means nothing anymore. i think kubo established that clear himself with the recent developments of byakuya saying nobody in the gotei 13 needs his help. seriously.

fights in general are very circumstancial. no fight between people happens the same every times just because of "power levels".

bleach fights aren't dbz fights.

enough of this "a>b, and b>c so a>c" crap that came to it's prime during the hitsu-harribel fight and won't go away. '~_~

(ok people have said that reitsu>abilities, so don't bash me and say i am only using hax examples because whether you like them or not, they are abilities NOTE: I understand that reitsu is greater than abilities in as gran maestro said fights where one has a considerable reitsu advantage, but when the reitsu gap isn't that large i have to disagree that one would win just because of a reitsu level is higher. thats when abilities and circumstances play a larger role than usual. i'm just saying that reitsu isn't greater than abilities all the time in some kind of "god clause", so if we misunderstood each other on what we were discussing, then sorry:darn)

for example, we can say reitsu matters all we want but when it comes down to it, would barragons respira not effect stark just because he is primera espada and barragan is the second espada? supposed reitsu difference?

would mayuri's poison not effect kenpachi or byakuya(yes i'm bringing that back up)
would his superhuman drug somehow be repelled from the inside just from reitsu and willpower?
how about syazels cloning ability? would he not be able to clone certain people because of thier reitsu(which i can actually see happening so oh well,) but then again syazel could seal bankai, and wonderweiss could seal ryuun jakka the strongest freaking elemental-melee zanpakto, so i don't see PURE REITSU defeating abilities there either

the yamma vs aizen fight itself was situational and circumstancial with wonderweiss involved and all. not only was yamma under kyoka suigetsu, but it was said that yamma would destroy aizen with that kamikaze attack.

lets say yamma didn't get grab aizen or wonderweiss wasn't there to seal ryuun jakka. would yamma win just because he has higher reitsu? no. he himslef knew aizen's ABILITY was too strong which is why he did the kamikaze(note he could have gone bankai but didn't take the chance which is a testament to ABILITY over raw power)
[hr]

Victors have to be decided by power levels. Its a manga not real life. The whole "On any given Sunday thing" can't be the basis of victors and losers. The reason I say this is that Bleach is very hierarchical....you have captains, lieutenants, 3rd/4th seats and so on. Would it be plausible for a 4th seat to come in and defeat Kenpachi/Yama? I suppose it could happen...but what would that do to the mental structure we have created in the Bleach Universe? For instance, lets play that out, lets say a 4th seat beats Kenpachi, whats would be our reaction?

A. Man that guy must have just been "on his game" that day.
B. Kenpachi was having and off day, maybe he's sick?
C. Wow that guy just got lucky is all.

or

D. Who is that guy? He must be more than just a 4th seat to have beaten Kenpachi, maybe he's got another role that we haven't found out about yet. (basically attributing that he had a higher power level than Kenpachi)
E. Is kenpachi really as powerful as we thought. (another reference to power levels)

You know, it could work if the character had 10+ fights a year, you could throw one or 2 fights in there that they just lost due to "chance", but when a character has only 1-2 fights a year, you have to make them meaningful and they have to reflect the progression or current state of the character. Think like a manga, and not like real life.

Well based off the bolded what else do you think it is? i mean ichigo beat kenpachi and byakuya, and
everyone here basically agrees byakuya would own grimjow(at least nobody objected it earlier so it is arguable)
and kenpachi beat nnoitora with way more wounds than ichigo had during the gimmjow fight, and used kendo in a weakened state to finish off noi

let me ask you. if ichigo had been healed when he did after ulq stabbed a hole through him and fought noitora instead of gimjow, do yo think he would have won?

i think we all agree kenpachi would beat pwn grimmjow.

this goes back to my whole disagreement with the whole
a>b and b>c so a>c junk

of course one could argue ichi wasn't "SS level", but remember that ichigo beat kenpachi in shikai. as i said before in my above quote it was a very situational fight that can't be duplicated and won't come out the same way twice, although some people still disagree.

so if you say ichigo couldn't beat nnoi, and the same kenpachi(but with kendo could) then are you saying SS ichigo w/shikai> HM ichigo with bankai and mask?

this is why i say bleach doesn't have scouters, although i admit i thought lillinete's little screen thing in her mask was a scouter at first, but it turned out to be a scope device for the fused lillinete-starrk

[Galbert-Kun]

I just read the most awesome Unohana fanfic EVER! Here it is. (http://vesperh.livejournal.com/106536.html) Pretty much she kicks Zaraki's ass in a fight while holding back and then unleashes a fucking awesome Bankai which turns Minazuki into a third eye on her forehead that steals the life of whatever its looking at! The author describes it as "Minazuki is always drawing life from everything around it, all the time--not enough to kill off the flowers Unohana arranges in the flower-arranging classes, but enough to keep itself full charged and ready to heal. When Minazuki is in its giant floating squid form, it is focused on healing, moving that life from itself into the thing it is enveloping. When Minazuki is in bankai form, it envelopes Unohana, directing all of its healing power inward, toward her, and all its life-stealing power outward, toward whatever it is looking at. So Minazuki needs to look at you to steal your life; doesn't matter whether you're looking back at it or not. Kenpachi is just mesmerized by Minazuki's eye because there is something innately horrifying about it. So if you were going to kill Unohana, you'd probably want to be shooting long-range projectiles at her from behind, and you'd need to take her by surprise. ANd then you hope you can hit her enough times or in just the right spot so that Minazuki can't heal her before she can turn around and look at you."

Two thumbs up to this author, because this would be such a badass Bankai that IMO fits Unohana perfectly.

It would be a badass bankai. Shiit, it would need its own level, above hax. I skimmed the fic... best line?

"It would take more than one. Don't try it, or else I'll get mad."

Unohana WIN quote. The pairing is odd but possible since opposites attract.

[albabar]

Do u think that Zarak is able to defeat Zomari Lurix ?
I know that Zaraki is stronger than Zomari , but byakuya defeated him mainly by using kido .

How would Zaraki be able to overcome Zomari's ability to control his enemy's body ?

[Gran Maestro]

(ok people have said that reitsu>abilities, so don't bash me and say i am only using hax examples because whether you like them or not, they are abilities NOTE: I understand that reitsu is greater than abilities in as gran maestro said fights where one has a considerable reitsu advantage, but when the reitsu gap isn't that large i have to disagree that one would win just because of a reitsu level is higher. thats when abilities and circumstances play a larger role than usual. i'm just saying that reitsu isn't greater than abilities all the time in some kind of "god clause", so if we misunderstood each other on what we were discussing, then sorry:darn)

for example, we can say reitsu matters all we want but when it comes down to it, would barragons respira not effect stark just because he is primera espada and barragan is the second espada? supposed reitsu difference?

would mayuri's poison not effect kenpachi or byakuya(yes i'm bringing that back up)
would his superhuman drug somehow be repelled from the inside just from reitsu and willpower?
how about syazels cloning ability? would he not be able to clone certain people because of thier reitsu(which i can actually see happening so oh well,) but then again syazel could seal bankai, and wonderweiss could seal ryuun jakka the strongest freaking elemental-melee zanpakto, so i don't see PURE REITSU defeating abilities there either

the yamma vs aizen fight itself was situational and circumstancial with wonderweiss involved and all. not only was yamma under kyoka suigetsu, but it was said that yamma would destroy aizen with that kamikaze attack.

lets say yamma didn't get grab aizen or wonderweiss wasn't there to seal ryuun jakka. would yamma win just because he has higher reitsu? no. he himslef knew aizen's ABILITY was too strong which is why he did the kamikaze(note he could have gone bankai but didn't take the chance which is a testament to ABILITY over raw power)

Let me elaborate:

There are tiers in Bleach. Only Kubo knows the real strength of every character but we can deduce them by analyzing the results of the fights. If a person has a considerable reiatsu advantage over another, the former is in a upper tier than the latter and when Kubo makes two persons fight, the one who is in the upper tier almost always wins.

Be careful, the opposite is not true, i.e. the winner isn't always in the upper tier. If two persons are in the same tier, then the result of the fight is circumstantial and relative abilities play a more important role.

Even being in an upper tier and having a considerable reiatsu advantage are not enough to negate your opponent's ability by pure reiatsu. There has to be an overwhelming reiatsu difference between them, for example minimum two tiers.

Answers to your questions based on this info:

Yes, Barragan's respira affects Stark because IMO they're in the same tier. Again IMO Harribel and Ulquiorra are in a lower tier than them and therefore Stark or Barragan are overwhelming favorites against Harribel or Ulquiorra in a fight. Nnoitra, Grimmjow and Zommari are in a lower tier than Harribel and Ulquiorra. So IMO it's possible that Stark can shrug off Zommari's ability.

Don't ask me to comment on scientists (like Mayuri or Szayel) because they're wild cards. They rarely rely on their own power and instead use drugs, bacteria, etc. to accomplish their goals, so it's kinda hard to estimate their position in the power scale. Mayuri's poison and drug probably affect Kenpachi and Byakuya but IMO they can most likely defeat Mayuri in a fight unless Mayuri is prepared to fight them.

I believe Yama and Aizen are in the same tier but IMO Yama has higher reiatsu and therefore he probably wins in a direct fight. But "certainty" was much better than "probability", hence the suicide attack. Yama didn't go bankai because he could have obliterated (part of) the real world. It had nothing to do with Aizen's ability, it's about his concern for human life.

Lastly, WW could seal RJ because it was his ability. It's not negation by pure reiatsu, it's negation by ability, there's a difference. But Aizen had to give this ability to someone who had sufficiently high reiatsu because otherwise Yama could suppress this ability by his reiatsu. This is why WW (most probably) managed to defeat Kensei's bankai despite being an arrancar specialized against Yamamoto, he was in a upper tier than Kensei.

[Revolation]

Let me elaborate:

There are tiers in Bleach. Only Kubo knows the real strength of every character but we can deduce them by analyzing the results of the fights. If a person has a considerable reiatsu advantage over another, the former is in a upper tier than the latter and when Kubo makes two persons fight, the one who is in the upper tier almost always wins.

Be careful, the opposite is not true, i.e. the winner isn't always in the upper tier. If two persons are in the same tier, then the result of the fight is circumstantial and relative abilities play a more important role.

Even being in an upper tier and having a considerable reiatsu advantage are not enough to negate your opponent's ability by pure reiatsu. There has to be an overwhelming reiatsu difference between them, for example minimum two tiers.

Answers to your questions based on this info:

Yes, Barragan's respira affects Stark because IMO they're in the same tier. Again IMO Harribel and Ulquiorra are in a lower tier than them and therefore Stark or Barragan are overwhelming favorites against Harribel or Ulquiorra in a fight. Nnoitra, Grimmjow and Zommari are in a lower tier than Harribel and Ulquiorra. So IMO it's possible that Stark can shrug off Zommari's ability.

Don't ask me to comment on scientists (like Mayuri or Szayel) because they're wild cards. They rarely rely on their own power and instead use drugs, bacteria, etc. to accomplish their goals, so it's kinda hard to estimate their position in the power scale. Mayuri's poison and drug probably affect Kenpachi and Byakuya but IMO they can most likely defeat Mayuri in a fight unless Mayuri is prepared to fight them.

I believe Yama and Aizen are in the same tier but IMO Yama has higher reiatsu and therefore he probably wins in a direct fight. But "certainty" was much better than "probability", hence the suicide attack. Yama didn't go bankai because he could have obliterated (part of) the real world. It had nothing to do with Aizen's ability, it's about his concern for human life.

Lastly, WW could seal RJ because it was his ability. It's not negation by pure reiatsu, it's negation by ability, there's a difference. But Aizen had to give this ability to someone who had sufficiently high reiatsu because otherwise Yama could suppress this ability by his reiatsu. This is why WW (most probably) managed to defeat Kensei's bankai despite being an arrancar specialized against Yamamoto, he was in a upper tier than Kensei.

based on what you wrote kind of being like what i wrote(the bolded in the quote), i can say we are on the same page.

now the concept of tiers i agree with, that puts it in better perspective. i also was trying to say we cant know the exact power levels of the characters in the first place, thus the whole a>b and b>c so a>c didn't have much basis since things like tiers could come into play. what if a, b, and c were all in the same tier? this is what iwas trying to convey where is was saying "what if the gap in reitsu wasn't that big, as in there wasn't a considerable reitsu advantage" i guess you just explained it better by using the concept of tiers. i couldn't find the right word to fully clearify. that being tier.


P.S. All this talk about tiers is reminding me too much of pokemon, and super smash bros.
------------------------------------------------------------
the following is incoherant rambling, so don't figure it or use it in a serious response lol

Although a complete list of bleach tiers wouldn't really be possible, because of said wildcards, and reasons metioned above with us not knowing full potential of characters and whatnot, so i guess, wildcards get thier own tier~_~

[freshseth83]

Do u think that Zarak is able to defeat Zomari Lurix ?
I know that Zaraki is stronger than Zomari , but byakuya defeated him mainly by using kido .

How would Zaraki be able to overcome Zomari's ability to control his enemy's body ?

remember what Zaraki said? I told em a thousand times i could do this by myself. In other words he figured he could beat all the espada there without help. If that's to be taken as truth then Ken-Chan is a monster. He really just likes to fight and wants his opponents to use their full power. Hence why he was waiting for Nnoitra to release. And the Nel issue she was released in her ressurrecion state while Nnoitra wasn't. In resurrecion all the wounds are healed and the espada are at full strength, so that point about Ken-Chan beating a weakend Nnoitra is false. If anything it was the opposite. Zaraki wasn't at full strength, that's why he said, i guess i gotta use it. And the point with Byakuya beating Zommari with Kidou is a good one. Z's speed was his bragging point, but it was nothing Byakuya couldn't overcome, even though he was on one foot. Byakuya outclassed him two to one in my book by using one arm and one leg.

[Hystzen]

based on what you wrote kind of being like what i wrote(the bolded in the quote), i can say we are on the same page.

now the concept of tiers i agree with, that puts it in better perspective. i also was trying to say we cant know the exact power levels of the characters in the first place, thus the whole a>b and b>c so a>c didn't have much basis since things like tiers could come into play. what if a, b, and c were all in the same tier? this is what iwas trying to convey where is was saying "what if the gap in reitsu wasn't that big, as in there wasn't a considerable reitsu advantage" i guess you just explained it better by using the concept of tiers. i couldn't find the right word to fully clearify. that being tier.


P.S. All this talk about tiers is reminding me too much of pokemon, and super smash bros.
------------------------------------------------------------
the following is incoherant rambling, so don't figure it or use it in a serious response lol

Although a complete list of bleach tiers wouldn't really be possible, because of said wildcards, and reasons metioned above with us not knowing full potential of characters and whatnot, so i guess, wildcards get thier own tier~_~



i give up trying to guess tiers i think kubo makes it up on the day of writing and author law comes into play...ichigo good example why does he suck so muchh now when he was a solid fighter yet we told he ment to be strong by unohana

[ryanzokuken]

1- Zaraki during his fight with Noitora has fatal wounds more than Ichigo s' during his battle with Grimjow .

2-Ichigo takes Intentionally Grmjows' Darts in order to protetct Inoy .
I mean Inoy and Nel caused many damages to Ichigo during this fight .
Ichigo concentrated on protecting his two girls and took many strong strikes for the sake of their safety .

3- Nel was easily able to destroy Noitora if she stayed in her mature form .
Despite the fact that she has not fought for a long time . And she always defeated Noitora in the past , and without effort .
Then , if compare Nel and Zaraki , like u did with Ichigo and Zarake , this means that Nel is stronger than Zaraki .

4- Zaraki fought Noitora after the latter had been exhausted by his fight with Nel .

5- Even if Zaraki uses his two hands against Ichigo , or more than two hands ( look at Noitora hands Lol ) ,with Zangits fighting beside Ichigo , Zaraki will certainly lose and lose and lose forever .


Nel kicked Noitora's ass while she was released and he wasn't. and even then, he hardly had any serious damage on him. although he was probably about to if her lance had gotten him before she poofed back into a baby.

that's not anywhere near enough to come to a conclusion that Nel >>> Kenpachi.

[freshseth83]

Nel kicked Noitora's ass while she was released and he wasn't. and even then, he hardly had any serious damage on him. although he was probably about to if her lance had gotten him before she poofed back into a baby.

that's not anywhere near enough to come to a conclusion that Nel >>> Kenpachi.

that was my point. Although i think given more time and Nel being back to her normal state, she'd be next to impossible to beat normally. She was much faster than Ichigo (or so it seemed) and she was definitely way stronger than Nnoitra. Released or not she was a match for him. Especially for her to just come back into her adult state. Given that she was ranked #3 way back when Nnoitra was ranked what, 8(?), There's no reason to believe if she wasn't put in her child form she would be much stronger now than she was then. So potentially she would or could be ranked higher than #3 if she stayed an espada.

[albabar]

that was my point. Although i think given more time and Nel being back to her normal state, she'd be next to impossible to beat normally. She was much faster than Ichigo (or so it seemed) and she was definitely way stronger than Nnoitra. Released or not she was a match for him. Especially for her to just come back into her adult state. Given that she was ranked #3 way back when Nnoitra was ranked what, 8(?), There's no reason to believe if she wasn't put in her child form she would be much stronger now than she was then. So potentially she would or could be ranked higher than #3 if she stayed an espada.

I comletely agree with u ..
Released or not , Noitera will be always defeated by her .
and he realizes this fact .
That is way he tried to kill her from the back in the past .
He knows that she is even now stronger than him .

[Nafycuk]

Do u think that Zarak is able to defeat Zomari Lurix ?
I know that Zaraki is stronger than Zomari , but byakuya defeated him mainly by using kido .

How would Zaraki be able to overcome Zomari's ability to control his enemy's body ?

Simple. Just by using his immense reiatsu. All kidou-based attacks can be countered with pile of reiatsu. It's like Aizen countered Soi Foin's Suzumebachi by his reiatsu pressure.
I guess Zaraki wouldn't even noticed Zomari's "Amor" :)

[Hystzen]

Zomari to me was the worst of the espada and easily the worst fight kubo has done.

how many espada have we seen now im sure there was 3 more siloutettes during the meeting with aizen after Ulq and yammy came back

[Exodi]

We saw all 10 Espada.

But there were other arrancars there, like you mentioned. But I'm inclined to think they were just Fracciones.

[White Silver King]

Personally, I think Nel (at full power, not just recovering like with her fight with NN) can take Ken. But that's probably because I love Nel and don't care too much for Ken.

[Hystzen]

only wondered about the other siloutettes because i thort that in the chap when aizen will leave FKT maybe they will turn up to help him just strange kubo shows them as shadows and never appear again...

[poopoomaru]

Simple. Just by using his immense reiatsu. All kidou-based attacks can be countered with pile of reiatsu. It's like Aizen countered Soi Foin's Suzumebachi by his reiatsu pressure.
I guess Zaraki wouldn't even noticed Zomari's "Amor" :)
That happened in an illusion though. We have no way of knowing if that is true.

[Saint Markus]

it's just me, but i miss Grimmjow.

[Xerneas]

Isn't it possible that isshin knew how to bypass the barrier because he was a member of the SS before he got to the RG. If that is true then even then if he was a captain of SS he still would know how it has been shown that isshin is extremely proficient with kido so I don't know why everyone is asking why.

Its possible he got in by himself, but that seems like overkill to me. Like, the Vizards couldn't get in after trying for ages, and they have Hachigen who is the best Kidou user (based on feats only) that we've seen. So Isshin is THAT much better than Hachi at Kidou? I don't even think Yama and Aizen are better than him. More powerful at it yes, because they have much higher reiatsu, but not more skilled. He was high ranking in the Kidou Corps - thats their specialty. For Isshin to break in, he would have to be stronger than Yama (who put up the barrier IIRC) and more skilled than Hachi. Which I find ridiculous cause then Aizen would have no business beating him, which we all know is going to happen.

[kkck]

I would think ishin got past the barrier by kindly asking sasabike to let him pass as the vizards did. Why else would he show up so late? I don't know what ishin did in the past but I doubt it will be bad enough for SS not to let him aide them. At least he won't be worst than aizen. I would find it weird that SS sees him as nearly bad a criminal as the vizards.

[Hystzen]

i thort urahara help create the barrier and him and isshin are war buddies at moment maybe he let him in either that or sasabike did but then why did he let him in i still think it to do with urahara.

[Sesshomaru]

I know it sounds cold but I am rooting for Yama, Ukitake, Momo and Hinamori to all die from this battle. I am tired of seeing no consequences for the good guys in Bleach.

[Hystzen]

i want momo to die (why is she there she does nothing), histu ( he has been beat more than chad but still comes back to make up bankai moves and get beat again and again). Ukitake is cool just damn shame kubo cant think of a fighting stlye for him so he gets beat or doesnt fight. i agree dead bad guys are piling up but good guys just laugh at them...comon hiyori in half and will live and histu is missing a arm and leg

[freshseth83]

these guys aren't humans though, the injuries they take are major that would kill a human, but a kidou healing will make them as good as new. I agree with you about Ukitake, i hope to see something from him. I'm sure we will though. He and Shunsui have been around since the academy Yama made along with Unohana- Another person i hope to see fight. I'm sure Kubo is saving these guys and their bankai's for a more important fight. At least I hope so. Thing is, against who? I mean it's hard to imagine how strong those guys are. We seen Shunsui is his shikai take out Stark with pretty much no damage done to himself. Well, ok, he had a cut and took a cero right to the back. But damn that was like it didn't happen. If this guy is that strong in just Shikai, what can his Bankai along with Ukitake and Unohana's? We still have Urahara's Bankai and maybe even Isshin might have one. There has to be more villians than besides Aizen and his goons. Maybe, just maybe there will be Vasto Lordes. Maybe! I had an idea as to why Hueco Mundo was still to be left for Aizen's return. I don't think any of the espada were Vasto Lordes, just modified arrancar, natural (stark?) or not (ww?). Also there's the two figures in Szayel's lab. They have to have importance as well... still a lot of things to be answered in my mind.

[DarkBankai]

I was flipping though some older issues of bleach.
and in the cemetary right after ichigo forces grand fisher off.
Hes standing there and isshin comes along and then ichigo gets upset because no one blames him for his mothers death and isshin says

"The woman I fell in love with.... was a woman who could die protecting her son."

NOw think for a sec.

He didnt say our son. our child. the only thing that is certain from that statement is that ichigo is her son.

By saying her son I think hes implying that ichigo isnt his son. at least not biologically.

Isshin" You are the guy that the woman I loved gave her life to protect."

That statement is out of place, because there is no your my son reference. We just take that for granted. He calls ichigo just THE GUY.

Like almost saying your the little dude that she died to protect. Little dude or the guy or anything like that suggests to me that he isnt ichigos bio dad but instead took on the role and raised him as his own.

Then He knees ichigo in the side after ichigo calls isshin dad. saying he hates it. This to me suggests that hes really not the father because It seems to me that a real father who was not only blood related but raised the boy would be glad his line was saved even at the cost of the mother.

The fact that he is honest and says he hates it, to me implies that isshin loved the mother more than ichigo because ichigo isnt blood related, so his love for ichigo is more a guardian and less paternal.

[Gran Maestro]

Isshin is Ichigo's father (http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/397/18-19/). Isshin merely says "Masaki was kind of a woman who would do anything to protect her son (whoever the father is), this is why I fell in love with her." The emphasis is on Masaki's qualities, "her" is the correct possessive adjective, not "our".

[DarkBankai]

Isshin is Ichigo's father (http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/397/18-19/). Isshin merely says "Masaki was kind of a woman who would do anything to protect her son (whoever the father is), this is why I fell in love with her." The emphasis is on Masaki's qualities, "her" is the correct possessive adjective, not "our".

So you think that isshin is ichigos father? Im just not so sure. He couldve phrased that many other ways. and Im not sure about the jap text version. Im refering to the english translated one. so from the translation assuming its nearly correct, it wasnt anything to protect her son. at least not on the one I was reading last night.

what a pain. I wish the manga was also printed in english by the creators so that there wouldd be no possible misinterpretation.

[clodhopper]

Gran Maestro is right. Isshin at that time was talking about the qualities of the woman he loved. It was to reinforce to Ichigo that his mother would do anything for her child, regardless of the situation. Thus Ichigo should stop beating himself up over her death and thinking it was his fault.

The reason why the translation is open for misinterpretation is because some words are open for tone, inflection and regional dialect. Since it's words on a page we the readers, the translators and editors have to be able to read into the broader meaning without focusing on the minutia. In this case the broader meaning is the quality of Misaki to protect one of her children. We can't intrepret that to mean that Isshin isn't the father, nor can we intrepret it to mean that Ichigo was an immaculate conception either.

[DarkBankai]

Gran Maestro is right. Isshin at that time was talking about the qualities of the woman he loved. It was to reinforce to Ichigo that his mother would do anything for her child, regardless of the situation. Thus Ichigo should stop beating himself up over her death and thinking it was his fault.

The reason why the translation is open for misinterpretation is because some words are open for tone, inflection and regional dialect. Since it's words on a page we the readers, the translators and editors have to be able to read into the broader meaning without focusing on the minutia. In this case the broader meaning is the quality of Misaki to protect one of her children. We can't intrepret that to mean that Isshin isn't the father, nor can we intrepret it to mean that Ichigo was an immaculate conception either.

I didnt mean to imply immaculate conception, just that isshin wasnt the father.

And i think we can interpret that to mean hes not the father because his words dont rule out the possibility of him not being the bio father. i guess well see in the next arc if isshins history is revealed.

[shailks]

I didnt mean to imply immaculate conception, just that isshin wasnt the father.

And i think we can interpret that to mean hes not the father because his words dont rule out the possibility of him not being the bio father. i guess well see in the next arc if isshins history is revealed.

Also going by what Isshin said that he fell in love with because of Masaki's said quality, doesn't that mean that he fell in love after at least Ichigo was born.:D

[Saint Markus]

you guys are idiots if you think Isshin isn't Ichigo's father. besides, he speaking from the perspective of being Masaki's husband, not "her father". duh.

Isshin was merely putting Ichigo at ease for feeling so guilty about his mother's death too.

shouldn't over examine every little detail that Kubo puts in this manga, you'll go crazy, yo.

[Revolation]

I didnt mean to imply immaculate conception, just that isshin wasnt the father.

And i think we can interpret that to mean hes not the father because his words dont rule out the possibility of him not being the bio father. i guess well see in the next arc if isshins history is revealed.

yet at the same time he is suggesting he is the father, and theres acturally evidence to back it up, along with the story.

why is this even up for discussion

[Hystzen]

yet at the same time he is suggesting he is the father, and theres acturally evidence to back it up, along with the story.

why is this even up for discussion

because people analyze every comment like it has a deep meaning it happens every chapter now

[Exodi]

If people still want to debate Isshin's relationship to Ichigo:

http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/187/07/

[freshseth83]

what interested me in that chapter was the fact he said "shinigami captains..." in other words, he was among them IMO. http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/187/17/ "shinigami captains all keep their soul cutters in a manageable size..." Sounds to me by him saying shinigami captains, that he was a captain, at least. this has to be since he is able to stand against aizen even with his sword in sealed state.

[Oathencrantz]

Very accurate:

http://lh3.ggpht.com/_BirvUCzeN8s/ScsunQc-sjI/AAAAAAAAArI/s_I9Julg63c/bleach_-_kyoraku_shunsui_and_ise_nanao.png

[hakuthehedgehog]

Shuinsui is 1000 times more awesome than that guy O_O

[Oathencrantz]

Even though that may be the case, this one of the better dress-ups I've seen of these characters.

[UnknownQuincy]

I definitely give that cosplay 2 thumbs up. It's obviously not perfect, but I think one of those 2 went to great lengths to setup this duo. I say this because they both look so physically similar to the manga counterpart, it would be hard to just want to do it and have 2 people who look so close the part handy.

[TravisAxel]

Very accurate:

http://lh3.ggpht.com/_BirvUCzeN8s/ScsunQc-sjI/AAAAAAAAArI/s_I9Julg63c/bleach_-_kyoraku_shunsui_and_ise_nanao.png

You bet your ass its accurate. The cosplayers managed to fit in pillars in the background too!

[Saint Markus]

like to see someone pull off a really good, Yammy.

[freshseth83]

Man, Bleach is getting too predictable & the fights are losing flavor.
The same fighting styles and positions on every chapter.

i watch that spartacus show, that shit is raw! But that cosplay has some major flaws. First of all, Shunsui is much taller than that guy. His hat has red at the top, his pink kimono has flowers in a pattern also. After that, he has 2 swords, this guy has one.

I'm a shunsui fan so seeing this is funny but its off by a good bit. But at least he tried! I think Shunsui is 6'3 this guy looks like some average Joe that's 5'9 or 5'10, but the chick as Nanao-Chan is pretty close

[5erge]

i watch that spartacus show, that shit is raw! But that cosplay has some major flaws. First of all, Shunsui is much taller than that guy. His hat has red at the top, his pink kimono has flowers in a pattern also. After that, he has 2 swords, this guy has one.

I'm a shunsui fan so seeing this is funny but its off by a good bit. But at least he tried! I think Shunsui is 6'3 this guy looks like some average Joe that's 5'9 or 5'10, but the chick as Nanao-Chan is pretty close

Spartacus is a great show! Season finale this week. Should be good.

As for the cosplayer... I think it was just a way to put his hairy chest to good use.

[ramonb]

Anyone gonna catch the anime realising today. Supposed to be Ichi vs Uli.

[clodhopper]

Anyone gonna catch the anime realising today. Supposed to be Ichi vs Uli.

There's discussion about it here http://mangahelpers.com/forum/showthread.php?t=59852
It's a full recap episode, only thing new is the OP, the ED and the Shinigami Illustrated Golden with Kon. Oh, and the preview for the following week looks like new footage.

[Hystzen]

ages ago in a chapter when chad was fighting bankai renji in chapter there was a monologe of Urahara watching and talking about chad he was saying somethin about his power

this page i mean last panel
http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/224/23/

is chads power hollow based or a some advanced form of Hakuda

i cant remember if we told what his power was

anybody know?

[freshseth83]

Chad said himself that his power was more like a hollow when they were in Hueco Mundo.

[Hystzen]

yea but that is chad tho :D i rather we got a answer from Urahara he seems to know everything with powers and stuff..im guessing it is hollow as the hand looks similar to a hollows arm (fishbone d) even then how come chad has a hollow power does he have a hollow soul iniside !

[kkck]

CHad does not necessarily have an inner hollow. His powers don't make him literally a hollow, he simply happens to have hollow-like powers.

[Hystzen]

still strange that he ment to have hollow powers i know he said in HM his arm felt different but that could anything he just finished his training so might have realized he was stronger....think kubo needs to do more on chads story maybe uryu i mean where is uryus mum why is his father such a annoying person :D.