PDA

View Full Version : Hangout Bleach Hangout Thread 3.0



Pages : [1] 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9

MangaHelpers
November 28, 2009, 04:36 PM
This is a continuation thread, the old thread is 40698

Tsukisama
November 28, 2009, 04:36 PM
The last one was so popular that it gets a sequel. :whoabunny

I think you know what this thread is for, but for those who don't, use this thread to discuss general Bleach-related topics.



Heyas everyone :amuse



This thread is the thread to talk about bleach-related stuff that doesn't fit anywhere or more casual talk about the series :) This thread isn't meant to replace other discussion threads, but is supposed to give you a place to simply be a bit "less serious".

You are allowed to talk about the latest completely released raw (non-jojohot) in here too :)

Although this thread is supposed to be more relaxed, i want you to notice that the following rules are in effect for this thread too:

- No spoilers out of the spoiler-threads in here (incl. jojohot raws/scanlations)
- No Agonizing about missing and requesting of raws
- No spam, this ain't the funforum ;)
- Keep it civil. No bashing of characters, mangas, mangakas, members or other individuals.


If you want a more general talk about everything, please check out our Latest Hang Out Thread (http://mangahelpers.com/forums/showthread.php?t=11159) and the General Discussion Forum (http://mangahelpers.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=18).

I bet we can pull a nice and friendly bleach-centric conversion up in here.

Have fun!

conn-man
November 28, 2009, 04:36 PM
this idea has been bounced around by my friends but do you think grimmjow will be another renji
since their fight is similar

absolutly, grimmjow was way to popular to die and im pretty sure he was one of kubos favorite children to. i agree with the parallel you made to renji but i would imagine that the next time grimmjow fights he would actully win which renji has not done in a long time.

CBlitz
November 28, 2009, 05:51 PM
well I don't know how useful Grimm will be, he's not that powerful in the larger scheme of things, so theres no real point to him joining up with Ichigo. Unless he absorbs Nnoitra, I don't think he would make that big a difference

Evil3ye
November 28, 2009, 06:45 PM
whoo new thread :vbunny

IMO Grimmjow's survival was totally random, and not necessary for the story in any way.. guess, that's what one call fanservice, yeah : )

Neliel has way more potential to become a permanent character tho',.. yet I don't see any use for both of them in the current story and arc. Maybe backing up the captains against Yammy or telling 'em his weakpoints sth like that. That's all I can think of atm.

Zatono
November 28, 2009, 07:52 PM
well I don't know how useful Grimm will be, he's not that powerful in the larger scheme of things, so theres no real point to him joining up with Ichigo. Unless he absorbs Nnoitra, I don't think he would make that big a difference

Grimmjow coming back would only make a difference if he somehow acquired Segunda Etapa, and have that put him on, say, one of the higher tier captain's level. I think Byakuya level would be good placement, or Starrk level.

CBlitz
November 28, 2009, 08:04 PM
well I guess thats always possible since Yammy seemed to have a second release as well with his new form

zerocooldx
November 28, 2009, 08:09 PM
If Grimmjow really is alive, then i bet he ends up eating a dead Espada or two *cough* Nnoitora *cough* and continues his evolution to the top.

CBlitz
November 28, 2009, 08:16 PM
haha it'd be awesome if Grimm decides to stay on Aizen's side and absorbs Nel as well as Nnoitra. That'd be a Kubo-ish troll lol

DARK
November 28, 2009, 10:58 PM
If Grimmjow really is alive, then i bet he ends up eating a dead Espada or two *cough* Nnoitora *cough* and continues his evolution to the top.

Only Aaroniero can absorb dead corpses and gain their powers.
Seriously, if Arrancar are able to cannibalize each other in the same manner as Hollows, we probably would have seen them do so by now. Aaroniero is an "experimental" Arrancar while Szayel's Arrancar are "custom-made." Those instances didn't count.

CBlitz
November 28, 2009, 11:39 PM
I'm pretty sure hollows can absorb each other, I mean thats how Adjucas and VLs are made right?

zerocooldx
November 28, 2009, 11:44 PM
Only Aaroniero can absorb dead corpses and gain their powers.
Seriously, if Arrancar are able to cannibalize each other in the same manner as Hollows, we probably would have seen them do so by now. Aaroniero is an "experimental" Arrancar while Szayel's Arrancar are "custom-made." Those instances didn't count.

No...we clearly saw Grimmjow eating other Hollows to evolve and gain more power. Even his own Fraccion offered up their bodies to him at one time.

Exodi
November 29, 2009, 12:40 AM
No...we clearly saw Grimmjow eating other Hollows to evolve and gain more power. Even his own Fraccion offered up their bodies to him at one time.

Aaroniero is slightly different.

While Hollows eat each other to gain more power, Aaroniero can also gain their abilities.

zerocooldx
November 29, 2009, 12:50 AM
Aaroniero is slightly different.

While Hollows eat each other to gain more power, Aaroniero can also gain their abilities.

I know what Aaroniero could do. I was just talking about Grimmjow and how he evolved by eating other Hollows. The other guy brought up Aaroniero as being the only one who could consume other Hollows. Which is not true, he just happened to absorb them in a unique way.

Lunatic Scream
November 29, 2009, 01:34 AM
Only Aaroniero can absorb dead corpses and gain their powers.
Seriously, if Arrancar are able to cannibalize each other in the same manner as Hollows, we probably would have seen them do so by now. Aaroniero is an "experimental" Arrancar while Szayel's Arrancar are "custom-made." Those instances didn't count.

http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/284/08/
http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/285/07/

Edit: I see you actually say ARRANCAR. You may be right, it is quite possible that once a menos becomes an arrancar, it loses the ability to continue evolving through the normal cannibalistic route. We haven't seen any arrancar actually eat others to evolve in this fashion. Does removing one's mask prevent them from having to continually eat to keep their Adjuchas status, as well as prevent them from being able to evolve? Good catch, sir.

Evil3ye
November 29, 2009, 02:42 AM
^That's right, but also an old hat, or were there still so many people thinking Grimmjow and co can evolve with eating other corpses..? Ok, guess a lot still thought so judging by all the 'theories' about him :sweat

Aaroniero stated being the only one who has invinite evolution potential, means non of the present Espada could do that, too. If they could they probably would end up in a slaughtering to eat up each other.. like Nnoitra/Neliel, but appearently he had an other purpose to knock her down, which was hate iirc lol

DARK
November 29, 2009, 10:24 AM
No...we clearly saw Grimmjow eating other Hollows to evolve and gain more power. Even his own Fraccion offered up their bodies to him at one time.

That was him as a Menos. I am referring to him as an Arrancar (whether or not he can continue to cannibalize Hollows/other Arrancar to gain more power is ambigious).

kkck
November 29, 2009, 12:00 PM
Nice, about time version 3 came lol. I just noticed I had the most post in the previous thread!

zerocooldx
November 29, 2009, 12:49 PM
That was him as a Menos. I am referring to him as an Arrancar (whether or not he can continue to cannibalize Hollows/other Arrancar to gain more power is ambigious).

Grimmjow became an "Arrancar" while he was an Adjucas. Being an Arrancar itself isn't necessarily a "class of Hollows" it's more of a category. Because Hollows can become Arranacr from different classes of Hollows. Much like Grimmjow's Fraccion who were all Gillian class Hollows still were able to become Arrancar. But the special thing about Adjucas is that they can continue to evolve through eating other Hollows. And the next evolutionary class above Adjucas is Vasto Lorde. So i see no reason as to why Grimmjow, if he still is alive, can't continue eating other strong Hollows to get stronger. Especially since there are dead Fraccion and Espada laying about within Hueco Mundo

DARK
November 29, 2009, 01:10 PM
Grimmjow became an "Arrancar" while he was an Adjucas. Being an Arrancar itself isn't necessarily a "class of Hollows" it's more of a category. Because Hollows can become Arranacr from different classes of Hollows. Much like Grimmjow's Fraccion who were all Gillian class Hollows still were able to become Arrancar. But the special thing about Adjucas is that they can continue to evolve through eating other Hollows. And the next evolutionary class above Adjucas is Vasto Lorde. So i see no reason as to why Grimmjow, if he still is alive, can't continue eating other strong Hollows to get stronger. Especially since there are dead Fraccion and Espada laying about within Hueco Mundo

Kubo didn't clarify if the Shinigamification would abruptly end the Hollow's ability to continue to "evolve."
Aaroniero can "evolve limitlessly," but he seems to be an experimental Hollow created by Aizen.
The answer for that question more or less depends if Kubo is willing to bring Grimmjow back at all.

zerocooldx
November 29, 2009, 01:19 PM
Kubo didn't clarify if the Shinigamification would abruptly end the Hollow's ability to continue to "evolve."
Aaroniero can "evolve limitlessly," but he seems to be an experimental Hollow created by Aizen.
The answer for that question more or less depends if Kubo is willing to bring Grimmjow back at all.

I seriously doubt that once someone becomes an Arrancar they suddenly stop evolving. Or loose the ability to gain more power through evolutionary type of methods. We saw Ulquiorra change and basically evolve into something completely different and he called that process a second release. And now Yammy has also completely changed from his normal resurrection form into something new as well. The only thing that i see that becoming an Arrancar does from a Hollow is that it gives them even more power. And nothing really indicates that because of becoming an Arrancar that the Hollows can't evolve any further beyond their normal class. I'm sure some Hollows won't be able to evolve because of lack of power or whatnot. But i doubt that all of them loose the ability to evolve further up.

DARK
November 29, 2009, 01:24 PM
I seriously doubt that once someone becomes an Arrancar they suddenly stop evolving. Or loose the ability to gain more power through evolutionary type of methods. We saw Ulquiorra change and basically evolve into something completely different and he called that process a second release. And now Yammy has also completely changed from his normal resurrection form into something new as well. The only thing that i see that becoming an Arrancar does from a Hollow is that it gives them even more power. And nothing really indicates that because of becoming an Arrancar that the Hollows can't evolve any further beyond their normal class. I'm sure some Hollows won't be able to evolve because of lack of power or whatnot. But i doubt that all of them loose the ability to evolve further up.

Sure the Arrancar can get stronger, but I don't think it's from cannibalizing on each other some more. Even if they could, Aizen and the Hogyoku simply granted them more power than they would have obtained if they continued their cannibalistic ways. Nnoitra is living proof that an Arrancar can get stronger without the need of having to eat other Arrancar/Hollows to do it.

Evil3ye
November 29, 2009, 01:27 PM
Grimmjow became an "Arrancar" while he was an Adjucas. Being an Arrancar itself isn't necessarily a "class of Hollows" it's more of a category. Because Hollows can become Arranacr from different classes of Hollows. Much like Grimmjow's Fraccion who were all Gillian class Hollows still were able to become Arrancar. But the special thing about Adjucas is that they can continue to evolve through eating other Hollows. And the next evolutionary class above Adjucas is Vasto Lorde. So i see no reason as to why Grimmjow, if he still is alive, can't continue eating other strong Hollows to get stronger. Especially since there are dead Fraccion and Espada laying about within Hueco Mundo
Ok, first of all.. becoming an Arrancar is nothing special actually, since you only need to take off your mask. That's the way how Hollows can gain Shinigami powers. BUT after you did that there is no way you can evolve as a Hollow and it's not even necessary since you've got Shinigami powers instead. The Arrancar still can use the powers he gained as Hollow tho', also he can resurrect to get back even more of his Hollow abilities, while being in the released form..

Now to the marked line.. it's not only that Adjucas can continue evolving, every Menos can. As long as it's a Hollow, not Arrancar :)

Grimmjow can not go around and become a Vastrolord 1. because he's not a Hollow anymore, 2. because everyone is dead already, from what we've seen sofar you need to eat 'em while they're still alive. Or maybe it's the killing process itself that keeps Hollows evolving, fact is we've only seen them being hunters not scavengers.

zerocooldx
November 29, 2009, 01:29 PM
Sure the Arrancar can get stronger, but I don't think it's from cannibalizing on each other some more. Even if they could, Aizen and the Hogyoku simply granted them more power than they would have obtained if they continued their cannibalistic ways. Nnoitra is living proof that an Arrancar can get stronger without the need of having to eat other Arrancar/Hollows to do it.

How is Nnoitora a proof of that? I'm sure there are methods to gain power without eating other Hollows. Such as becoming an Arrancar. But from what we know the higher up on the evolutionary chart that a Hollow goes the more Hollows it took to create that being. Either thought fusion or absorption of some sort.

DARK
November 29, 2009, 01:32 PM
How is Nnoitora a proof of that? I'm sure there are methods to gain power without eating other Hollows. Such as becoming an Arrancar. But from what we know the higher up on the evolutionary chart that a Hollow goes the more Hollows it took to create that being. Either thought fusion or absorption of some sort.

Nnoitra told Neliel that he became stronger since she left. It wasn't clearly stated that Nnoitra obtained this power by eating more Hollows (we would have seen him do so if that was the case). All he had to say on the subject was that he was thankful that "Aizen gave [him] more power." (via the Hougyoku).

zerocooldx
November 29, 2009, 01:33 PM
Ok, first of all.. becoming an Arrancar is nothing special actually, since you only need to take off your mask. That's the way how Hollows can gain Shinigami powers. BUT after you did that there is no way you can evolve as a Hollow and it's not even necessary since you've got Shinigami powers instead. The Arrancar still can uses the powers he gained as Hollow tho', also he can resurrect to get back even more of his Hollow abilities, while being in the released form..

Now to the marked line.. it's not only that Adjucas can continue evolving, every Menos can. As long as it's a Hollow, not Arrancar :)

Grimmjow can not go around and become a Vastrolord 1. because he's not a Hollow anymore, 2. because everyone is dead already, from what we've seen sofar you need to eat 'em while they're still alive. Or maybe it's the killing process itself that keeps Hollows evolving, fact is we've only seen them being hunters not scavengers.

Wait...Grimmjow is not a Hollow anymore? :oh I think people some seriously need to find out what an Arrancar is. An Arancar is a Hollow that has removed his/her mask. But it's still a Hollow. It doesn't become anything else other than a Hollow with a removed mask. And how do you know that after becoming an Arrancar Hollows can evolve any further?

DARK
November 29, 2009, 01:38 PM
Wait...Grimmjow is not a Hollow anymore? :oh I think people some seriously need to find out what an Arrancar is. An Arancar is a Hollow that has removed his/her mask. But it's still a Hollow. It doesn't become anything else other than a Hollow with a removed mask. And how do you know that after becoming an Arrancar Hollows can evolve any further?

Grimmjow self identified himself as a "Hollow" during his fight with Ichigo despite being an Arrancar. It's the same manner that Ichigo continues to call himself a "Shinigami/Human" despite gaining the powers of his Inner Hollow.
Still we haven't seen evidence of Arrancar continuing to cannibalize each other for power. Aaroniero cannibalized Metastacia, sure, but that was a Hollow. Even if an Arrancar can still gain powers in the same manner as they did while as Hollows, the Hougyoku simply grants them more power. It takes a LOT of hollows just to gain a small increase of power. In some cases, eating Hollows does not grant you power at all. It's simply too risky just to obtain power when you can just take the easy road.

zerocooldx
November 29, 2009, 01:42 PM
Nnoitra told Neliel that he became stronger since she left. It wasn't clearly stated that Nnoitra obtained this power by eating more Hollows (we would have seen him do so if that was the case). All he had to say on the subject was that he was thankful that "Aizen gave [him] more power." (via the Hougyoku).

Like i said i'm sure you can get power different ways. But each Hollow class that we have seen/heard of basically requires even more Hollows to get to the next stage of natural (slow) evolution. Either through absorption of fusion of some kind. The Hougyoku is basically just a short cut that speeds up and refines the process of becoming an Arrancar. Seeing as how becoming an Arrancar can be a (slow) natural process through natural evolution. But nothing says that the Hougyoku itself actually creates evolution among the Hollows. And nothing says that the Hougyoku stops Hollow evolution either. All that we know that the Hougyoku does is that it grants (fast) power to Hollows so that they can become Arrancar. So to say that the Hougyoku stops Hollow evolution is a very pre-mature statement. With basically nothing to support it.

DARK
November 29, 2009, 01:45 PM
Like i said i'm sure you can get power different ways. But each Hollow class that we have seen/heard of basically requires even more Hollows to get to the next stage of natural (slow) evolution. Either through absorption of fusion of some kind. The Hougyoku is basically just a short cut that speeds up and refines the process of becoming an Arrancar. Seeing as how becoming an Arrancar can be a (slow) natural process through natural evolution. But nothing says that the Hougyoku itself actually creates evolution among the Hollows. And nothing says that the Hougyoku stops Hollow evolution either. All that we know that the Hougyoku does is that it grants (fast) power to Hollows so that they can become Arrancar. So to say that the Hougyoku stops Hollow evolution is a very pre-mature statement. With basically nothing to support it.

There is no evidence to support this, sure. But Kubo doesn't really have any evidence to prove the opposite either. Kubo only provided so much on the subject of how Menos formed. Since the majority of the Espada/Arrancar died anyway, I don't think that it's really that relevant anymore.

Evil3ye
November 29, 2009, 01:51 PM
Wait...Grimmjow is not a Hollow anymore? :oh I think people some seriously need to find out what an Arrancar is. An Arancar is a Hollow that has removed his/her mask. But it's still a Hollow. It doesn't become anything else other than a Hollow with a removed mask. And how do you know that after becoming an Arrancar Hollows can evolve any further?
He's not :) Hollows do not look like humans you know,.. they just don't. Arrancars as well as Vizards are Hybrids, Arrancar are a little closer to Hollows tho' (hollowhole, parts of a mask), than Vizards are, who are appearently not that far away from Shinigamis.. like 60:40, 40:60 or sth.

How do I know that they can't evolve? Well, the fact that Nnoitra did not eat Neliel proves it, not? Why would he not eat her to become stronger? Then again he could rise his rank without doing it and I don't believe he sneakily knocked out 4-7 in the meanwhile lol.

He might have trained his Shinigami powers, reiatsu, swordfight, etc.. the changed sword could hint that. But of course it's all hypothetical thinkings so far, I just believe it's most logical that way.

zerocooldx
November 29, 2009, 01:55 PM
There is no evidence to support this, sure. But Kubo doesn't really have any evidence to prove the opposite either. Kubo only provided so much on the subject of how Menos formed. Since the majority of the Espada/Arrancar died anyway, I don't think that it's really that relevant anymore.

Actually we know what the Hougyoku does, for the most part anyways. And we have seen it in use and nothing suggest that it stops Hollow evolution. Actually if anything the power it grants only promotes evolution because it grants power to Hollows and Hollows need power to evolve. Seeing as how Ulquiorra and Yammy, two Arrancar that got power from the Hougyoku, have shown us that they can indeed, at the very least, change their forms and power. No other Hollows in general have shown us that. Ulquiorra was even able to change the power he got into regenerative skills. That definitely sounds like an ability obtained through evolutionary methods to me. And Ulquiorra even said that Aizen doesn't know about his other release. So that right there is a indicator that the Hougyoku dose not crate a "celling" for Hollows after they become Arrancar in terms of further evolution and growth.

benelori
November 29, 2009, 01:59 PM
I've followed the discussion a bit,so this post it's not a reply to everything stated before...hollows that remove their mask are arrancar, not hollow...these are terms so I think there's no problem with them...but if an arrancar or anybody claims he or she is a hollow then I think that's just pride, of his origins of his own self and looks at his or her shinigamification as an increase of power...

As for the development of arrancars...they do develop I think...as somebody said Nnoitra is the best example of evolving...his weapon changed and he got ranked up in the espada, though we don't know if these 2 things relate...but the evolution is obvious...there's always Ulquiorra, who seeked evolution and got Segunda Etapa.

The difference between the evolution of the arrancar and menos are just the terms... both entities can evolve, but arrancar develop as whole, shinigami powers+hollow powers
and the menos are improving their hollow powers thus aiming for adjuchas or vasto lorde status...
So the development can stop as a hollow(as noted by Shawlong), but when a hollow becomes arrancar, then a new direction is opened in where he can aim to develop...
Of course this last statement is just circumstantial info gathered from the manga, so until more info is shown on how hougyoku works and if there can be errors or not, then I think my assumption is logical

Evil3ye
November 29, 2009, 02:01 PM
Nnoitra told Neliel that he became stronger since she left. It wasn't clearly stated that Nnoitra obtained this power by eating more Hollows (we would have seen him do so if that was the case). All he had to say on the subject was that he was thankful that "Aizen gave [him] more power." (via the Hougyoku).
eehh.. uhmm
Can you give us the link for that pls, I just wanna know what exactly he said according to that. Can't remember it anymore..


Like i said i'm sure you can get power different ways. But each Hollow class that we have seen/heard of basically requires even more Hollows to get to the next stage of natural (slow) evolution. Either through absorption of fusion of some kind. The Hougyoku is basically just a short cut that speeds up and refines the process of becoming an Arrancar.
No that's not right. Hollows evolution into an Arrancar is not natural, nor the transformation into a Vizard. The natural Hollow evolution is like; Menos Grande/Gillian, Adjuca, Vastrolord (fin). Ripping off the mask is artificial, same like Aizen's experiments on the Shinigami who became Vizards later on. It has only been said that the evolution into an Arrancar is not faster, if you use the Hougyoku.. the result is just way more powerful :)

benelori
November 29, 2009, 02:09 PM
No that's not right. Hollows evolution into an Arrancar is not natural, nor the transformation into a Vizard. The natural Hollow evolution is like; Menos Grande/Gillian, Adjuca, Vastrolord (fin). Ripping off the mask is artificial, same like Aizen's experiments on the Shinigami who became Vizards later on. It has only been said that the evolution into an Arrancar is not faster, if you use the Hougyoku.. the result is just way more powerful :)

I think the better phrase should be not normal, no unnatural...IIRC then Isshin or Urahara said something about arrancars occuring before, but that it was a rare phenomenon...

CBlitz
November 29, 2009, 02:13 PM
Arrancars are artificial Adjucas and (possibly) VLs that are superior to their natural counterparts. Kubo hasn't really explained everything behind the whole caste of the hollows so I've no clue about the absorbing hollows thing

benelori
November 29, 2009, 02:20 PM
I wouldn't call them VLs, but UR right in a way...in terms of power they could be close and probably they are

DARK
November 29, 2009, 02:27 PM
eehh.. uhmm
Can you give us the link for that pls, I just wanna know what exactly he said according to that. Can't remember it anymore...

http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/313/05/

Evil3ye
November 29, 2009, 02:45 PM
Actually we know what the Hougyoku does, for the most part anyways. And we have seen it in use and nothing suggest that it stops Hollow evolution. Actually if anything the power it grants only promotes evolution because it grants power to Hollows and Hollows need power to evolve. Seeing as how Ulquiorra and Yammy, two Arrancar that got power from the Hougyoku, have shown us that they can indeed, at the very least, change their forms and power. No other Hollows in general have shown us that. Ulquiorra was even able to change the power he got into regenerative skills. That definitely sounds like an ability obtained through evolutionary methods to me. And Ulquiorra even said that Aizen doesn't know about his other release. So that right there is a indicator that the Hougyoku dose not crate a "celling" for Hollows after they become Arrancar in terms of further evolution and growth.
Every single Arrancar do change power and form when releasing, so it's not true what you say. Also it's nothing special to me, that some have still enough power of an other powerup after releasing once. We've seen that Aarancar like Ggio Vega can become stronger as well, it's nothing odd or special about one not using all power at once. An other of Barragan's fraccion could also rise his level by breaking his mask apart.

It it's just Yammy's ability to become stronger by getting angry.
And what Ulquiorra said according the instand reg, does not match with that you've mentioned. It was actually said that it's not a special ability, since ever single hollow can do it. But a the most of them gave it up to gain more strength. Just he did not and still could use it after becoming an Arrancar.

And Ulquiorra's second release.. well he said Aizen didn't seen him like that and from all Espada he's the only one who's capable of it.

Oh and btw! Where exactly is it stated that Yammy and Ulquiorra were made by the Hougyoku? You know.. Espada 1 and 2 were not, and yet they were stronger, how comes Ulquiorra is weaker then am?
(pls don't start with 4² > 1,2 and what not.. because he's just not.. :facepalm)


I think the better phrase should be not normal, no unnatural...IIRC then Isshin or Urahara said something about arrancars occuring before, but that it was a rare phenomenon...
hmm.. well yeah sure.. it's actually not that seldom either, since most of the known Arrancar are not made by the Hougyoku.. but yet it's a kind of procedure into the Hollow evolution, which is not natural ;/ hope ya get my point lol
[hr]

http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/313/05/
haha yeah ok, he deffo is speaking about a new ability and power boost, whichc is most likely the Hougyoku, but he did not say it :p

but there are some things that really do not make any sense to me in this manga. It's the fact, that Starrk and Barragan were confirmed not being made by the Hougyoku, yet being the most powerful Arrancar among the Espada (besides 0 of course :amuse)

zerocooldx
November 29, 2009, 03:34 PM
Every single Arrancar do change power and form when releasing, so it's not true what you say. Also it's nothing special to me, that some have still enough power of an other powerup after releasing once. We've seen that Aarancar like Ggio Vega can become stronger as well, it's nothing odd or special about one not using all power at once. An other of Barragan's fraccion could also rise his level by breaking his mask apart.

It it's just Yammy's ability to become stronger by getting angry.
And what Ulquiorra said according the instand reg, does not match with that you've mentioned. It was actually said that it's not a special ability, since ever single hollow can do it. But a the most of them gave it up to gain more strength. Just he did not and still could use it after becoming an Arrancar.

And Ulquiorra's second release.. well he said Aizen didn't seen him like that and from all Espada he's the only one who's capable of it.

Oh and btw! Where exactly is it stated that Yammy and Ulquiorra were made by the Hougyoku? You know.. Espada 1 and 2 were not, and yet they were stronger, how comes Ulquiorra is weaker then am?
(pls don't start with 4² > 1,2 and what not.. because he's just not.. :facepalm)


hmm.. well yeah sure.. it's actually not that seldom either, since most of the known Arrancar are not made by the Hougyoku.. but yet it's a kind of procedure into the Hollow evolution, which is not natural ;/ hope ya get my point lol
<hr noshade size="1">

haha yeah ok, he deffo is speaking about a new ability and power boost, whichc is most likely the Hougyoku, but he did not say it :p

but there are some things that really do not make any sense to me in this manga. It's the fact, that Starrk and Barragan were confirmed not being made by the Hougyoku, yet being the most powerful Arrancar among the Espada (besides 0 of course :amuse)

Who said the Hougyoku made Ulquiorra and Yammy? I just said they, just like probably all of other Espada, received some form of power from it. And even Nnoitora said that after gaining power from Aizen that "the sky was the limit". Even Barragan refers to Aizen giving him some gift or power of some sort. So i seriously doubt that Nnoitora meant that he can't get any stronger and evolve any further when he said the sky was the limit. I mean thats just common sense.
[hr]

eehh.. uhmm
Can you give us the link for that pls, I just wanna know what exactly he said according to that. Can't remember it anymore..


No that's not right. Hollows evolution into an Arrancar is not natural, nor the transformation into a Vizard. The natural Hollow evolution is like; Menos Grande/Gillian, Adjuca, Vastrolord (fin). Ripping off the mask is artificial, same like Aizen's experiments on the Shinigami who became Vizards later on. It has only been said that the evolution into an Arrancar is not faster, if you use the Hougyoku.. the result is just way more powerful :)

Dude you seriously need to consider reading or referring to the manga before posting. <.< Isshin and Urahara talked about how the new Arrancar were more refined than the ones they faced before. So yes becoming an Arrancar is a natural process. The Hougyoku basically just gives the Hollows more power so that they can speed up the process of evolving into Arrancar. Which naturally is a very slow process.

Evil3ye
November 29, 2009, 03:50 PM
Who said the Hougyoku made Ulquiorra and Yammy? I just said they, just like probably all of other Espada, received some form of power from it. And even Nnoitora said that after gaining power from Aizen that "the sky was the limit". Even Barragan refers to Aizen giving him some gift or power of some sort. So i seriously doubt that Nnoitora meant that he can't get any stronger and evolve any further when he said the sky was the limit. I mean thats just common sense.
OK, sry for that then, But.. why do you think evolving into a higher Menos type (while not being a Hollow lol) is the only way to become stronger?


Dude you seriously need to consider reading or referring to the manga before posting. <.< Isshin and Urahara talked about how the new Arrancar were more refined than the ones they faced before. So yes becoming an Arrancar is a natural process. The Hougyoku basically just gives the Hollows more power so that they can speed up the process of evolving into Arrancar. Which naturally is a very slow process.
And your source for that is..? :)
Dude, I think you're mixing up the Hollow evolution, which surely is slow,.. with the step to become an Arrancar >.>

zerocooldx
November 29, 2009, 04:30 PM
OK, sry for that then, But.. why do you think evolving into a higher Menos type (while not being a Hollow lol) is the only way to become stronger?


And your source for that is..? :)
Dude, I think you're mixing up the Hollow evolution, which surely is slow,.. with the step to become an Arrancar >.>

Becoming an Arrancar can be a natural process, that is clearly very slow. The only thing that the Hougyoku could possibly do is to create the necessary conditions for the process of becoming an Arrancar to occur and do so at a rapid rate. As well as to give power to Hollows in order for them to be able to evolve even future in some ways. Because Hollows naturally evolve through consumption or fusion of other Hollows. Hollows can become Arrancar both through natural methods via evolution and through artificial methods via the Hougyoku. But the Hougyoku does not "create" Arrancar, because that ability for Hollows to become Hollows already exists. It just creates the right conditions for it to happen quickly and efficiently.

Evil3ye
November 29, 2009, 04:42 PM
Sorry you did not anwer my question. Fact is, that we've seen Grand Fisher evolving into an Arrancar..
and ya know.. 2 pages is not slow :)
http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/25/18/ (still a hollow)
http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/25/19/ (no more hollow since no mask ;d)

zerocooldx
November 29, 2009, 04:46 PM
Sorry you did not anwer my question. Fact is, that we've seen Grand Fisher evolving into an Arrancar..
and ya know.. 2 pages is not slow :)
http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/25/18/ (still a hollow)
http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/25/19/ (no more hollow since no mask ;d)

Oh my god.....he clearly didn't evolve on his own. He evolved under one of Aizen's Arrancar and most likely their assistance. What I'm talking about is 100% natural evolution. -_-"

Evil3ye
November 29, 2009, 04:50 PM
Oh my god.....he clearly didn't evolve on his own. He evolved under one of Aizen's Arrancar and most likely their assistance. What I'm talking about is 100% natural evolution. -_-"
lolwhut :lmao
u serious???? :lmao

however.. your argument still fail since a Hougyoku ("unnatural" evolution) is nowhere to be seen, it's still hidden in Rukia's body :)

zerocooldx
November 29, 2009, 05:09 PM
lolwhut :lmao
u serious???? :lmao

however.. your argument still fail since a Hougyoku ("unnatural" evolution) is nowhere to be seen, it's still hidden in Rukia's body :)

Dude thats not an Arancar, he was mainly getting healed and changed a little bit. He probably evolved into something, but not an Arrancar. This (http://www.mangatoshokan.com/read/bleach/1/185/4) is Grandfisher as an Arrancar. Mainly because he clearly has a sword and here (http://www.mangatoshokan.com/read/bleach/1/25/18) his face is different from here (http://www.mangatoshokan.com/read/bleach/1/187/7) in his Arancar form. Which was all caused by Aizen (http://www.mangatoshokan.com/read/bleach/1/188/13). So i have no idea what you keep on talking about. And for the last time read the manga before posting.

Evil3ye
November 29, 2009, 05:21 PM
Dude thats not an Arancar, he was mainly getting healed and changed a little bit. He probably evolved into something, but not an Arrancar. This (http://www.mangatoshokan.com/read/bleach/1/185/4) is Grandfisher as an Arrancar. Mainly because he clearly has a sword and here (http://www.mangatoshokan.com/read/bleach/1/25/18) his face is different from here (http://www.mangatoshokan.com/read/bleach/1/187/7) in his Arancar form. Which was all caused by Aizen (http://www.mangatoshokan.com/read/bleach/1/188/13). So i have no idea what you keep on talking about. And for the last time read the manga before posting.
Eeehh no? What you've linked is merely the difference between an Arrancar before and after he got in touch with the Hougyoku. Which you said Nnoitra and Barragan described as a "Gift" and reaching the sky and what not. Sorry boy, but you're stultifying yourself then, it's not me who should read the manga, it's you.

"He probably evolved into something, but not an Arrancar." Dude. that's just does not make any sense at all..

zerocooldx
November 29, 2009, 05:24 PM
Eeehh no? What you've linked is merely the difference between an Arrancar before and after he got in touch with the Hougyoku. Which you said Nnoitra and Barragan described as a "Gift" and reaching the sky and what not. Sorry fellas, but you're stultify yourself then, it's not me who should read the manga, it's you.

"He probably evolved into something, but not an Arrancar." Dude. that's just does not make any sense at all..

Grandfisher right here (http://www.mangatoshokan.com/read/bleach/1/25/18) is not an Arrancar. That is unless back then being an Arrancar meant having no sword and no way to resurrect his true form. Which isn't being an Arrancar at all. This is recidivous you can believe whatever you like.

Evil3ye
November 29, 2009, 05:27 PM
Grandfisher right here (http://www.mangatoshokan.com/read/bleach/1/25/18) is not an Arrancar. That is unless back then being an Arrancar meant having no sword and no way to resurrect his true form. Which isn't being an Arrancar at all.
Arrancarisation is the process to break the mask. That's what just happend in that panels.

Trotter
November 29, 2009, 05:41 PM
Evil eye...

http://www.mangatoshokan.com/read/bleach/1/229/15

Wonderweiss created by the Orb.

EDIT: And yes, Grand Fisher is an Arrancar, that chapter 25 or whatever it was is an early concept of Arrancar. Clearly Kubo changed designs.

Evil3ye
November 29, 2009, 05:45 PM
Evil eye...

http://www.mangatoshokan.com/read/bleach/1/229/15

Wonderweiss created by the Orb.
yeah sure..

and your point? :oh

I mean.. Wonderweiss being the only confirmed Arrancar made by the Hougyoku is not a secret, no..

or do I not see an other point you're hinting at? ;/

Trotter
November 29, 2009, 05:49 PM
lolwhut :lmao
u serious???? :lmao

however.. your argument still fail since a Hougyoku ("unnatural" evolution) is nowhere to be seen, it's still hidden in Rukia's body :)

Referring to this. Obviously it's not inside of her it has been used. Not only that but its also obvious that the Orb was used to create all of these Arrancar. Why? http://www.mangatoshokan.com/read/bleach/1/209/3 They are numbered from order of their birth via the Orb.

Evil3ye
November 29, 2009, 05:57 PM
^we were talking about Grad Fisher and the Icer guy or whoever was treating him, that totally got nothing to do with Wonderweiss' creation, but meh..


EDIT: And yes, Grand Fisher is an Arrancar, that chapter 25 or whatever it was is an early concept of Arrancar. Clearly Kubo changed designs.As for that,.. it might be yeah.. but if you'd try to see the manga with no plotholes and sudden changes and go by the later logic, if Bleach even got sth like that..., then that change from Grand Fisher's first and second Arrancar appearance has most likely to do with Aizen and his orb. which would also fit to that what Isshin and Kisuke said afterwards.

some people just fail to see that Grand Fisher already envolved into a nature Arrancar in ch25, cuz he envolved in "something else" instead :facepalm
Idunno.. maybe the pre evolution of Fuura loooooool (JKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKK!)

Trotter
November 29, 2009, 05:59 PM
It could have, or it could just be a design change. Either way it doesn't really matter because he's dead and was weak no matter how you cut it.

Evil3ye
November 29, 2009, 06:09 PM
Well, like everyone is death, and it seems the manga comes to an end, so why even arguing about it anymore..

Just because! ;p


Referring to this. Obviously it's not inside of her it has been used. Not only that but its also obvious that the Orb was used to create all of these Arrancar. Why? http://www.mangatoshokan.com/read/bleach/1/209/3 They are numbered from order of their birth via the Orb.
That again is also a little fishy, because a lot of other Arrancar were confirmed not being born by the orb, that's why I think it might be the order Aizen 'improved' them with the orb instead. But that's just my two cents...

Trotter
November 29, 2009, 06:13 PM
Then why use the word birth? You aren't born if you are just made stronger.

Evil3ye
November 29, 2009, 06:23 PM
could have many reasons like..
-sloppy translation
-deference to Aizen

but like I said.. it's just my opinion with no evidence.. there are just some fishy things say
-Grimmjow's #12
-the fact that Arrancar created by the orb were claimed to be MUCH stronger than natural Arrancar
-trash like Barragan's fraccion having No. about 70+ when Aizen should already got used to the power of the orb at the 70th try
-Barragan himself being just 'improved' by the Hougyoku and not created.. etcetc

however, it's pointless to discuss on that topic any longer, since we just know too less about the power of the Hougyoku for now. Yet I doubt we ever get some more information about it..

CBlitz
November 29, 2009, 07:12 PM
that also reminds me, Aizen didn't create Stark either, he sought Stark out in HM. I don't really get this whole artificial>natural thing myself, but I think that theres a catch to Hougyokou's power

kkck
November 29, 2009, 07:17 PM
Dude thats not an Arancar, he was mainly getting healed and changed a little bit. He probably evolved into something, but not an Arrancar. This (http://www.mangatoshokan.com/read/bleach/1/185/4) is Grandfisher as an Arrancar. Mainly because he clearly has a sword and here (http://www.mangatoshokan.com/read/bleach/1/25/18) his face is different from here (http://www.mangatoshokan.com/read/bleach/1/187/7) in his Arancar form. Which was all caused by Aizen (http://www.mangatoshokan.com/read/bleach/1/188/13). So i have no idea what you keep on talking about. And for the last time read the manga before posting.

How can it not be an arrancar lol. He clearly has a broken mask and we know a hollow with a broken mask is an arrancar. He did go through some changes until the next time we saw him though.

Trotter
November 29, 2009, 07:33 PM
Or maybe Starrk was just so epic he could pwn any of the Artificial or Natural born?

kkck
November 29, 2009, 07:57 PM
Actually we know what the Hougyoku does, for the most part anyways. And we have seen it in use and nothing suggest that it stops Hollow evolution. Actually if anything the power it grants only promotes evolution because it grants power to Hollows and Hollows need power to evolve. Seeing as how Ulquiorra and Yammy, two Arrancar that got power from the Hougyoku, have shown us that they can indeed, at the very least, change their forms and power. No other Hollows in general have shown us that. Ulquiorra was even able to change the power he got into regenerative skills. That definitely sounds like an ability obtained through evolutionary methods to me. And Ulquiorra even said that Aizen doesn't know about his other release. So that right there is a indicator that the Hougyoku dose not crate a "celling" for Hollows after they become Arrancar in terms of further evolution and growth.
I don't think the orb promotes hollow evolution for arrancar. I also have my doubts about arrancar evolving(as in having a change in hollow forms or zampakuto change). I do think they evolve to some extent as they grow stronger but I doubt the process depends completely on eating hollows.

Also, ulquiorra did not change the power he got for regeneration abilities. He simply chose to keep it and not obtain as much power as he would have gotten had he given up the power. He simply keep a power which is normal for menos as an arrancar.


I seriously doubt that once someone becomes an Arrancar they suddenly stop evolving. Or loose the ability to gain more power through evolutionary type of methods. We saw Ulquiorra change and basically evolve into something completely different and he called that process a second release. And now Yammy has also completely changed from his normal resurrection form into something new as well. The only thing that i see that becoming an Arrancar does from a Hollow is that it gives them even more power. And nothing really indicates that because of becoming an Arrancar that the Hollows can't evolve any further beyond their normal class. I'm sure some Hollows won't be able to evolve because of lack of power or whatnot. But i doubt that all of them loose the ability to evolve further up.

I would think the second stage of ulquiorra's sword release is a power gained from his shinigami side rather than his hollow one. An arrancar's zampakuto release is after all a power obtained from their shinigami side. The hollow side of an arrancar plays a side in the form and nature of the power obtained but the release itself should come from the shinigami side.


Wait...Grimmjow is not a Hollow anymore? :oh I think people some seriously need to find out what an Arrancar is. An Arancar is a Hollow that has removed his/her mask. But it's still a Hollow. It doesn't become anything else other than a Hollow with a removed mask. And how do you know that after becoming an Arrancar Hollows can evolve any further?
Technically speaking an arrancar is not a hollow. An arrancar is an hybrid; a crossover between shinigami and hollow powers. In other words, an arrancar is as much as a hollow as a vizard is a shinigami. I would not call an arrancar a hollow nor a vizard a shinigami.

hyn_pride93
November 29, 2009, 07:58 PM
that also reminds me, Aizen didn't create Stark either, he sought Stark out in HM. I don't really get this whole artificial>natural thing myself, but I think that theres a catch to Hougyokou's power
The artificial arrancar stronger than most because their "limits" are broken down. (thanks the hougyoku) Starrk was already a powerhouse and Aizen probably didn't use the hougyoku on Starrk because all Starrk wanted was to be around others.

benelori
November 30, 2009, 09:46 AM
I would think the second stage of ulquiorra's sword release is a power gained from his shinigami side rather than his hollow one. An arrancar's zampakuto release is after all a power obtained from their shinigami side. The hollow side of an arrancar plays a side in the form and nature of the power obtained but the release itself should come from the shinigami side.


Technically speaking an arrancar is not a hollow. An arrancar is an hybrid; a crossover between shinigami and hollow powers. In other words, an arrancar is as much as a hollow as a vizard is a shinigami. I would not call an arrancar a hollow nor a vizard a shinigami.

Exactly...the hollows evolution as a hollow(menos->...->VL) is over when the mask is broken or damaged(see Shawlong)...
Arrancars are hollow without the whole mask, so they can be included in this category...however, arrancar have shinigami-like powers, so as long as their hollow-like evolution is over, they can evolve in the direction of their shinigami powers...Nnoitra changing his zanpaktou is clearly not related to the hollow term, becuz the word zanpaktou is there and Ulquiorra's Segunda Etapa smells like bankai...
I think Hougyoku's functions need to be told, but what I'm interested in if the use of Hougyoku in generating arrancar has errors or not...

Evil3ye
November 30, 2009, 10:21 AM
Exactly...the hollows evolution as a hollow(menos->...->VL) is over when the mask is broken or damaged(see Shawlong)...
Arrancars are hollow without the whole mask, so they can be included in this category...however, arrancar have shinigami-like powers, so as long as their hollow-like evolution is over, they can evolve in the direction of their shinigami powers...Nnoitra changing his zanpaktou is clearly not related to the hollow term, becuz the word zanpaktou is there and Ulquiorra's Segunda Etapa smells like bankai...
I think Hougyoku's functions need to be told, but what I'm interested in if the use of Hougyoku in generating arrancar has errors or not...
Correct. Shawlong stated that after Grimmjow has bitten off D-Roy's mask he could no longer evolve into a higher menos type. Arrancar do destroy they're mask theirselves or later with the help of the orb (Wonderweiss) which appearantly make them stronger, but stop their Hollow evolution, either way.

That is why Grimmjow and the others cannot evolve into a Vastrolord anymore :)
Hope the topic is finally closed v.v

Snake_Cowboy
November 30, 2009, 11:05 AM
^Actually, about D-Roy. The way I saw it, D-Roy couldn't evolve anymore, because Grimmjow had eaten a part of him, which stopped his evolution. Just like when Shawlong and the others offered Grimmjow to eat part of their bodies later on, because it would stop their evolution and made sure they wouldn't degenerate back into Guilian.

Not saying your theory is wrong: it makes sense that an Arrancar can no longer evolve the same way as Menos Grandes normally do. Just pointing out that it doesn't matter which part of D-Roy's body Grimmjow had eaten; it would've stopped his evolution regardless, whether his mask was damaged or not.

conn-man
November 30, 2009, 11:06 AM
That is why Grimmjow and the others cannot evolve into a Vastrolord anymore :)
Hope the topic is finally closed v.v

grimmjow was never gonna become a vasto lorde anyway, hes plenty strong now to fight a couple times later on, once to win and once to lose.

toussaintac
November 30, 2009, 06:34 PM
I still don't understand why Mashiro lost her mask when it's said she could hold it for almost a day. Wahtevs. SMH

mr.danly
November 30, 2009, 06:36 PM
I still don't understand why Mashiro lost her mask when it's said she could hold it for almost a day. Wahtevs. SMH

well other than the epic kubo-plot-weapon that destroyed her, it seems that there's a difference in the time limit when you're just chillin' with your mask on, as compared to when you're fighting, doing ceros, etc.

toussaintac
November 30, 2009, 06:52 PM
well other than the epic kubo-plot-weapon that destroyed her, it seems that there's a difference in the time limit when you're just chillin' with your mask on, as compared to when you're fighting, doing ceros, etc.

Except she was doing kicks the whole time.
[hr]
Also, Ichigo's never just broke like that in midfight. He can go from 11 seconds to never losing it again, but Mashiro goes from a day to 2 minutes...SMH

CBlitz
November 30, 2009, 07:38 PM
it broke mid-fight during his second match with Grimm

DARK
November 30, 2009, 08:10 PM
I still don't understand why Mashiro lost her mask when it's said she could hold it for almost a day. Wahtevs. SMH

http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/376/10/
http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/376/16/
Mashiro suddenly losing her mask is obviously Kubo's way of getting rid of her for the time being. Plot devices such as "being able to hold [her] mask for 15 hours" are absolutely meaningless against Kubo. He does hold the final judgment in the plot/battles of this manga.

conn-man
November 30, 2009, 08:40 PM
Mashiro suddenly losing her mask is obviously Kubo's way of getting rid of her for the time being. Plot devices such as "being able to hold [her] mask for 15 hours" are absolutely meaningless against Kubo. He does hold the final judgment in the plot/battles of this manga.

i like that mashiros mask broke despite the 15 hours. clearly its a case of power usage like kensei said, im sure that holding of wonderwiess, the prime canidite for being a vastro lorde, takes a signigicant amount of power whether mashiro knew it or not. its like a motor using more gas when its accelerating.

DARK
November 30, 2009, 08:52 PM
i like that mashiros mask broke despite the 15 hours. clearly its a case of power usage like kensei said, im sure that holding of wonderwiess, the prime canidite for being a vastro lorde, takes a signigicant amount of power whether mashiro knew it or not. its like a motor using more gas when its accelerating.

Kensei tells Mashiro that "fighting this level of an opponent will quickly exhaust her." Considering how Mashiro can hold the mask for up to 15 hours in normal standards (knowing she'll be on the battlefield with other powerful opponents), that says a lot about the level of WW's abilities.

akakagi
November 30, 2009, 09:25 PM
Kensei tells Mashiro that "fighting this level of an opponent will quickly exhaust her." Considering how Mashiro can hold the mask for up to 15 hours in normal standards (knowing she'll be on the battlefield with other powerful opponents), that says a lot about the level of WW's abilities.
'
Not really. A diver might be able to hold his breath for 4 minutes, but when he gets into a boxing ring he might be out off breath in 30 secs. I have been fighting since I was six and most of my wins where because I learnt how to breathe correctly. Ichigo has been putting on his mask and fightin to the death more than the vizards. Am I reaching?

DARK
November 30, 2009, 10:03 PM
'
Not really. A diver might be able to hold his breath for 4 minutes, but when he gets into a boxing ring he might be out off breath in 30 secs. I have been fighting since I was six and most of my wins where because I learnt how to breathe correctly. Ichigo has been putting on his mask and fightin to the death more than the vizards. Am I reaching?

I don't understand how this has to do with my comment.

Now back on topic with the actual spoilers. If Tosen really does have a Vizard mask, he SHOULD at least be able to maintain it for a very long time. I mean, he is more important than Mashiro so despite the latter being able to wear hers for a good 15 hours, he will be shown to retain it longer than she can. Same goes with Ichigo; he only held it for 11 seconds but then his mask limit was extended because the plot required him to do so. This will probably be the case with Tosen.

Truefan21
November 30, 2009, 11:28 PM
can anyone show me where can i find kubo's interviews

igotthegoods
November 30, 2009, 11:40 PM
Try this thread: Any word from Kubo??? (http://mangahelpers.com/forums/showthread.php?t=27618) :amuse

White Silver King
December 01, 2009, 06:04 PM
I just think it's kind of unfair how Vizards can't just get all their powers at once with no difficulties like Arrancar. Vizards have to put up with an inner hollow that constantly wants to take them over and beat them in order to use their powers at all. But it's also odd to me how Arrancar aren't as much Shinigami as Vizards are Hollow. What I mean is that the only thing Arrancars really gain are a human form, sonido (which VL can probably use) and a sword and in order to unleash their full power they have to go back to their hollow forms, wtf? But Vizards get a mask, a shunpo/sonido mix, hollow like strength, bala, cero, hollow regeneration, etc. The sides seem a little uneven to me.

Sinedd
December 01, 2009, 06:09 PM
I just think it's kind of unfair how Vizards can't just get all their powers at once with no difficulties like Arrancar. Vizards have to put up with an inner hollow that constantly wants to take them over and beat them in order to use their powers at all. But it's also odd to me how Arrancar aren't as much Shinigami as Vizards are Hollow. What I mean is that the only thing Arrancars really gain are a human form, sonido (which VL can probably use) and a sword and in order to unleash their full power they have to go back to their hollow forms, wtf? But Vizards get a mask, a shunpo/sonido mix, hollow like strength, bala, cero, hollow regeneration, etc. The sides seem a little uneven to me.

That error in the equilibrium up to now is probably because we haven't seen Vasto Lorde Arrancar yet. They might have a better balance of shinigami and hollow skills that rivals that of the Vizards.

DARK
December 01, 2009, 06:10 PM
I just think it's kind of unfair how Vizards can't just get all their powers at once with no difficulties like Arrancar. Vizards have to put up with an inner hollow that constantly wants to take them over and beat them in order to use their powers at all. But it's also odd to me how Arrancar aren't as much Shinigami as Vizards are Hollow. What I mean is that the only thing Arrancars really gain are a human form, sonido (which VL can probably use) and a sword and in order to unleash their full power they have to go back to their hollow forms, wtf? But Vizards get a mask, a shunpo/sonido mix, hollow like strength, bala, cero, hollow regeneration, etc. The sides seem a little uneven to me.

There's a simple reasoning behind this.
The Vizard weren't bathed in the Hougyoku's bright light, unlike the "born" Arrancar. Aizen's experiment that Holllowfied them was imperfect. If it weren't for Urahara using the Hougyoku to stabilize them, the Vizard would have died anyway. The Hougyoku is the definitive object that can break away at this Shinigami/Hollow barrier. Simply put, Aizen's previous experiment didn't wear this wall down as much.
To me, Vizard only really gain super strength/speed plus the ability to fire Cero. Meanwhile, Arrancar have all these abilities, some of them have high-speed regeneration and ones unique to different Arrancar.


Her spine was cut in half right near the bottom.

She has to die.

As long as her vital points (lungs, heart, brain) are still intact, Hiyori is still going to be alive.

locke002paul
December 01, 2009, 06:34 PM
Well, it HAS been mentioned (IceRinger told Grand Fisher) that the only way to be certain you killed a Shinigami is to chop off his head. I believe the reason why Arrancars and Hollow die so easily in comparison with the Shinigami is connected to the nature of the zanpakutou ... a weapon whose purpose is to destroy and purify them.

Zatono
December 01, 2009, 06:52 PM
As long as her vital points (lungs, heart, brain) are still intact, Hiyori is still going to be alive.

Last time I checked, blood is needed for those things to function properly. Considering that the bottom half of her body is gone, I'm guessing she should be close to drained by now, or soon at least.

Shadow
December 01, 2009, 07:07 PM
I wish Kubo would allow Ichigo to truly make a concrete decision on what he will do and how he feels about doing it instead of making random declarations of victory against every opponent he faces/is about to face.

This is what Zangetsu said when Ichi was fighting Ken: http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/112/02/http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/112/03/
This is the main cause of his weakness and Kubo needs to make him move on already. Hopefully the meeting with Urahara will provide him with impetus.

DARK
December 01, 2009, 07:44 PM
Last time I checked, blood is needed for those things to function properly. Considering that the bottom half of her body is gone, I'm guessing she should be close to drained by now, or soon at least.

Rangiku lost a lot of blood too, but she's still around thanks to some third-rate healer.
http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/336/06/
Hachi is currently the best "healer" on the battlefield, so it's safe to say Hiyori isn't going to die from a "loss of blood."

Darth Executor
December 02, 2009, 01:36 AM
As long as her vital points (lungs, heart, brain) are still intact, Hiyori is still going to be alive.

This is bleach. You could stick her in a blender and make sausages out of her corpse and Kubo would still find a way to bring her back.

thornofcarrion
December 02, 2009, 03:25 AM
Sadly that is true, good people don't die in Bleach. Anyways, I myself is not a fan of good people dying, unless it serves any purpose.

benelori
December 02, 2009, 06:29 AM
Hacchi is a barrier master...he stopped his own bleeding with a small barrier...I think that attaching back Hiyori's upper half with her bottom half would be an idea lol...at least the blood from the upper half would get back into the legs even if not in the conventional way...
But the barrier idea would work also...
[hr]

This is bleach. You could stick her in a blender and make sausages out of her corpse and Kubo would still find a way to bring her back.

yep...space and time reversal techs and phenomen rejection...

DARK
December 02, 2009, 07:15 AM
This is bleach. You could stick her in a blender and make sausages out of her corpse and Kubo would still find a way to bring her back.

That's mostly because of Orihime's rejection abilities. Hachi has the same abilities, but Shinji knows that his are not as powerful as Orihime's. Hachi can bide time and maybe partially restore Hiyori, but I don't think he can do it as proficient as Orihime could.
Hell, she can even bring back the dead and restore limbs.

CBlitz
December 02, 2009, 10:14 AM
so why didn't she just revive Ulquiorra if they were BFFs in the end?

Snake_Cowboy
December 02, 2009, 10:45 AM
^Probably because there was nothing left of him.

I don't think even Orihime can reject someone's death if they've faded into thin air.

drakend
December 02, 2009, 03:55 PM
^Probably because there was nothing left of him.

I don't think even Orihime can reject someone's death if they've faded into thin air.
It's always an event. She can reject events. If she would rejects the event "Inoue Orihime exists in Bleach" I would be happy... :D

DARK
December 02, 2009, 04:07 PM
so why didn't she just revive Ulquiorra if they were BFFs in the end?

Who said that they were BFFs? They were only close enough that Orihime is no longer scared of him.
http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/353/20/
http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/353/21/
Doesn't mean that she can just forgive Ulquiorra's harsh treatment and verbal abuse to her friends.
http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/262/12/

Kravmaga
December 02, 2009, 04:13 PM
It's always an event. She can reject events. If she would rejects the event "Inoue Orihime exists in Bleach" I would be happy... :D

No, I don't think she can.
Event rejection is just the wording of how her powers work, not an indication of the scope she can use it at. She can only reject events that can fit her bubble and apparently are within her emotional tolerance.

Saying her power can reject any event is like saying my microwave oven can heat up any lunch in the world.

Evil3ye
December 02, 2009, 05:06 PM
I agree with DARK. He'd still be a threat to the nakamas, it'd be really dumb to revive him. However, I as well don't think she could do that.

Snake_Cowboy
December 03, 2009, 03:09 AM
It's always an event. She can reject events. If she would rejects the event "Inoue Orihime exists in Bleach" I would be happy... :D

Even if Orihime had the power sufficient to revive Ulquiorra from nothingness, how would she do that logically speaking? Where would she point those little fairies of hers? Would they cover all the air of Hueco Mundo which Ulquiorra dissolved in?:eyeroll

Zatono
December 03, 2009, 01:49 PM
Even if Orihime had the power sufficient to revive Ulquiorra from nothingness, how would she do that logically speaking? Where would she point those little fairies of hers? Would they cover all the air of Hueco Mundo which Ulquiorra dissolved in?:eyeroll

Does she have to have all of the Ulq dust? I'm pretty sure that if she has one little spec, she can reject the event and get him back. Similar to how she was able to bring back that girl arrancar's body after it was blown into nothingness.

Snake_Cowboy
December 03, 2009, 04:39 PM
That's true, although there's a big difference between the state Menoly was in and Ulquiorra.

Menoly got a Cero to the face and was blown to several bloody pieces. Ulquiorra disappeared into thin air. Still, I suppose that, theoretically, Orihime could bring Ulquiorra back to life if she had his ashes or dust or whatever it was. Regardless of the question of whether she would actually do it.

I mean, seriously, I know this is Orihime we are talking about, but Ulquiorra was the enemy. He seemed to take a lot of pleasure in killing Ichigo right in front of her. So yeah. I'm not expecting Ulquiorra to be revived (and I'm saying that as a fan of his character).

But I think people are pushing Orihime's potential abilities too far. Sure, her ability to reject stuff is pretty impressive, but I think it would require a great amount of sheer power for her to reject the existence of something. The most impressive thing we have seen her do so far is healing Menoly even after she was blasted to pieces by Grimmjow and I don't think Orihime will be doing anything bigger than that on a regular basis.

Of course, she'll have some important role to play eventually, but I don't think she'll be doing a lot of things that would alter the whole world of Bleach, so to speak.

kkck
December 03, 2009, 05:37 PM
Does she have to have all of the Ulq dust? I'm pretty sure that if she has one little spec, she can reject the event and get him back. Similar to how she was able to bring back that girl arrancar's body after it was blown into nothingness.
Well, quite frankly it does not seem to matter whether she has ulquiorra dust or not. She does not need even a speck. She does not even need to be where the person died.
http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/228/13/

UnknownQuincy
December 03, 2009, 10:24 PM
Since she couldn't fix Tsubaki without the fragments, I don't think she could fix Ulq without his dust, either.

Based on the implications of that page, I doubt Ullqiorra will ever be seen again. I also think that Orihime's powers are vital to the story, but have a tendency to be over-hyped by quite a bit.

While I would afford the possibility of rejecting the Hougkyoku (it's just an object, no matter it's importance), I doubt she can reject an entire existence, or an entire string of events. Meaning, for example, while she could reject the Hougyoku itself, I highly doubt she could reject Aizen and then reject everything he has done so far.

obamamania
December 03, 2009, 10:29 PM
If she said she can reject the hougyoku, then she can reject the hougyoku. Don't make it seem like Orihime is making this statement, she's simply the voice being used by Kubo to give a prediction to us. Orihime has a big role involving the hougyoku, and more than likely it'll end up either benefitting Aizen or clinching his defeat.

haarisa
December 04, 2009, 01:32 AM
On a side note... the tv show had the latest episode on this week and it was like "Getsuga Tenshou!!!!" every 10 seconds. I swear... he really does need something new.

Evil3ye
December 04, 2009, 06:00 AM
^I usually do not watch the anime, but yeah, I totally agree. It'd be nice if Ichigo gets some more attacks. Not speaking about more powerful and overkills, but that he at least have some different commands and variety of forms or at least the color (anime ^^). All in all I have to say I choose watching ppl like Rukia fight over fighters like Ichigo or Renji with just kinda the same stuff everytime..

haarisa
December 04, 2009, 09:40 AM
Evil3ye,

The Grimmjow and Uluqiorra fight is how he should fight each time. Those were THE BEST battles in Bleach, Hands down. Full of action, and each of them well drawn. It seemed in the current anime storyline, its just "Getsuga Tenshou" every 2 minutes. I actually liked every fight up till the Uluqiorra fight for Ichigo. Then again, we haven't seen him fight except against Yammi when there was something wrong with his reitsu.

Shola
December 04, 2009, 01:06 PM
In order to avoid confusion; when talking about orihimes abilities just say heal. Saying rejection is twisting the way aizen used it and seems to insinuate that the scope and potential of her power is something that it simply isn't. I remember someone saying she could reject Aizens hypnosis :lmao. What does that mean? People are making hypothesis' about the orihimes powers and start saying things ridiculous; orihime will reject *blank*. Plug whatever the fuck u want into that blank spot and u have an awfully broken and stupid character. It just means she can heal. Until we see otherwise I don't understand y people are making bogus predictions about her power.

Gran Maestro
December 04, 2009, 04:00 PM
In order to avoid confusion; when talking about orihimes abilities just say heal. Saying rejection is twisting the way aizen used it and seems to insinuate that the scope and potential of her power is something that it simply isn't. I remember someone saying she could reject Aizens hypnosis :lmao.

Inoue can do much more than healing. She has the ability to reject (http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/240/13/) any kind of event that has happened to her target. So, in theory, she can reject KS's effect on people as if they have never seen Aizen's shikai release. As Aizen put it, this is an ability that trespasses into God's territory (http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/240/14/).

Shola
December 04, 2009, 04:06 PM
Yeeaaa. I coulda swore that once Aizen revealed his true intentions regarding capturing oriihime all his rants about her power were accepted to be bs

Evil3ye
December 04, 2009, 04:06 PM
Inoue can do much more than healing. She has the ability to reject (http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/240/13/) any kind of event that has happened to her target. So, in theory, she can reject KS's effect on people as if they have never seen Aizen's shikai release. As Aizen put it, this is an ability that trespasses into God's territory (http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/240/14/).
Hacchi once claimed they're abilities are nearly the same. He also could 'reject' or restore the obliteration of the Inoue's attcking thingy *forgot the little dude's name :darn*
If they could nullify Aizen's hypnosis shikai, don't you think they would not waste any time with fighting random Espada and do that immediately?

Shola
December 04, 2009, 04:12 PM
That whole notion of orihimes "rejecttion" in relation to Aizens shikai borders on total nonsense if you ask me. Idk where ppl got that from

obamamania
December 04, 2009, 04:26 PM
Yeeaaa. I coulda swore that once Aizen revealed his true intentions regarding capturing oriihime all his rants about her power were accepted to be bs

Why should they be bs? They are not the same as Hacchi's, we already knew that, so if it's not healing, and it's not time reversion, then it's rejection. But Aizen having her power at this point so far has not made a difference to anything except healing Grimmjow who was only the #6 espada. The only benefit Aizen had to having her was Orihime herself as a hostage, not as a rejector of anything. Aizen had no reason to lie about this to the audience he was surrounded by, or at the time it was said.

But you're right, rejection of kyoka suigetsu is the ridiculous thing I've ever heard, if it happens then wtf Kubo.

Gran Maestro
December 04, 2009, 04:32 PM
Hacchi once claimed they're abilities are nearly the same. He also could 'reject' or restore the obliteration of the Inoue's attcking thingy *forgot the little dude's name :darn*
If they could nullify Aizen's hypnosis shikai, don't you think they would not waste any time with fighting random Espada and do that immediately?

Hachigen's ability is not event rejection, it is time-space regression (http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/237/08/). Sure, their abilities are similar because they're mostly used for healing. (Like when Hachigen restored Tsubaki (http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/228/14/))

I don't know why SS didn't use Inoue to negate Aizen's hypnosis. Perhaps they're unaware that Inoue is capable of doing that. Or maybe Aizen is wrong and Inoue is no more than an improved version of Unohana.

obamamania
December 04, 2009, 04:36 PM
Maestro, how do you know that "Inoue is capable of doing that". Where's the evidence that she can reject the ability of a shikai such as that. You make it sound like we know she can do it but didn't. You can give me 101 reasons why you think it's possible, but it's 100% not backed enough to be proven.

Gran Maestro
December 04, 2009, 04:55 PM
Maestro, how do you know that "Inoue is capable of doing that". Where's the evidence that she can reject the ability of a shikai such as that.

Aizen says so. He says she can negate any kind of event (http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/240/13/) that has happened to her target. It means she can negate Aizen's hypnosis and restore somebody to a state where hypnosis never occured.
[hr]

Yeeaaa. I coulda swore that once Aizen revealed his true intentions regarding capturing oriihime all his rants about her power were accepted to be bs

There was no reason for Aizen to talk nonsense.

kkck
December 04, 2009, 05:03 PM
Maestro, how do you know that "Inoue is capable of doing that". Where's the evidence that she can reject the ability of a shikai such as that. You make it sound like we know she can do it but didn't. You can give me 101 reasons why you think it's possible, but it's 100% not backed enough to be proven.

The activation of kyoka suigetsu is an event and as such it should be within orihime's capacity to reject it. IMHO it should be in principle the same thing as rejecting the loss of grimmjows arm, the deaths of melony and that other arrancar, ichigo's wounds and lack of reiatsu or even the event of ishida losing his arm. Granted there is a level of speculation behind this but given the logic under which orihime's power seems to function it makes perfect sense.

Zatono
December 04, 2009, 05:34 PM
That whole notion of orihimes "rejecttion" in relation to Aizens shikai borders on total nonsense if you ask me. Idk where ppl got that from

Why is it total nonsense? You're saying that it's obvious Tousen and Aizen are going to fight each other from the day their powers were first explained. So isn't it obvious that from the day Aizen explained Inoue's power that she should use it to reject hypnosis?

Aizen calls himself God, and before he said "It easily tramples the horizon of events that God has decided". All you have to back what you say is that Tousen is blind.

Shola
December 04, 2009, 05:51 PM
It feels like I'm in the twilight zone. You guys are pairing apples and oranges, no..bowling balls and saying its the same thing. How is restoring ones arm the same as removing a visual induced illusion? Sure it hasn't been proven wrong but does it really have to? I mean cmon.
I always end my critique on this subject with asking "how will that work?" I know it sounds like just a part of my rant but I'm really curious to know, how would that work. When they are put into her field are they miraculously cured of KS effects? The more I think about it the more retarded it seems. That's not intended as a shot at you guys but I think that would make Aizen the most absentminded villain of all time (if this was the case then I'm pretty sure he woulda put the kaibash on that real quick) for this reason among others, I feel this fan fav theory is complete bs.
[hr]
@zatono
No. No its not, actually. As far as ur second comment goes idk what it means, finals have my cognitive abilities shot, sorry -_-;

Zatono
December 04, 2009, 05:55 PM
How is restoring ones arm the same as removing a visual induced illusion? Sure it hasn't been proven wrong but does it really have to? I mean cmon.
I always end my critique on this subject with asking "how will that work?" I know it sounds like just a part of my rant but I'm really curious to know, how would that work. When they are put into her field are they miraculously cured of KS effects? that would make Aizen the most absentminded villain of all time (if this was the case then I'm pretty sure he woulda put the kaibash on that real quick)

Are you understanding the "rejection of events" part? It's not comparing an arm to a shikai effect, it's comparing a rejection of an event to a rejection of an event. The only difference is that Orihime has only used it to heal up wounds, and probably has no idea how to do anything else with her power. To answer your Aizen thing, he probably just decided that she'd never figure out how to reject a shikai effect.
[hr]

@zatono
No. No its not, actually. As far as ur second comment goes idk what it means, finals have my cognitive abilities shot, sorry -_-;

It means that Aizen has screwed himself over by explaining her power to the reader, and then calling himself God later on. Orihime's power > what Aizen has done.

Shola
December 04, 2009, 06:10 PM
Here's how my logic is working *scratches scalp* ok when Aizen said she can "reject" events I thought (and still do) he was overdramatizing her ability to heal by reversing its process or whatever; and when he said that he was talking about the 2 fairy one that she's always spamming. Not the 3 that block incoming attacks or the one she's always sending to his doom via kamikaze bullet attack :amuse.
Now I feel that the fact that you guys feel that she needs to somehow change the technique used to "heal" so that it will have a different effect shows the flaw in the theory. The healing fairies do what they do, they don't do anything else, once they surround you all their abilities are being utilized, there's no underlying applicable ability that she doesn't know about inherent with those fruit flies. If you guys believe that she does then you are basing theories off of even more spectacular theories because as we know it orihime can
1.Block (then fail)
2. Attack (and send on a suicide mission)
3. And heal (period)
So I'm lead to believe if she can do what you say its already inherent in number 3's abilities and if that's the case it leaves questions as to why certain conditions of other people she healed weren't extinguished when they entered the bubble. And if you believe that there is a certain aspect of number 3 that she hasn't discovered yet that will allow her to reject....WATEVER THE FUCK SHE WANTS (:mad) then I cannot argue with as I would not nowhere to begin.
Granted; orihimes ability has been given high falutant explanations and all but at the end of the day its just a fancy explanattion for healing. Ichigos inner hollow never got "rejected" in the bubble, and I'm sure she's healed members of ss before and none of them to my knowledge have come running announcing that aizen is a really old geezer with a walking stick so IMO KS can't be "rejected"

kkck
December 04, 2009, 06:50 PM
Here's how my logic is working *scratches scalp* ok when Aizen said she can "reject" events I thought (and still do) he was overdramatizing her ability to heal by reversing its process or whatever; and when he said that he was talking about the 2 fairy one that she's always spamming. Not the 3 that block incoming attacks or the one she's always sending to his doom via kamikaze bullet attack :amuse.
Now I feel that the fact that you guys feel that she needs to somehow change the technique used to "heal" so that it will have a different effect shows the flaw in the theory. The healing fairies do what they do, they don't do anything else, once they surround you all their abilities are being utilized, there's no underlying applicable ability that she doesn't know about inherent with those fruit flies. If you guys believe that she does then you are basing theories off of even more spectacular theories because as we know it orihime can
1.Block (then fail)
2. Attack (and send on a suicide mission)
3. And heal (period)
So I'm lead to believe if she can do what you say its already inherent in number 3's abilities and if that's the case it leaves questions as to why certain conditions of other people she healed weren't extinguished when they entered the bubble. And if you believe that there is a certain aspect of number 3 that she hasn't discovered yet that will allow her to reject....WATEVER THE FUCK SHE WANTS (:mad) then I cannot argue with as I would not nowhere to begin.
Granted; orihimes ability has been given high falutant explanations and all but at the end of the day its just a fancy explanattion for healing. Ichigos inner hollow never got "rejected" in the bubble, and I'm sure she's healed members of ss before and none of them to my knowledge have come running announcing that aizen is a really old geezer with a walking stick so IMO KS can't be "rejected"

The first thing I want to point out is that the manga has repeatedly stated orihime has no such thing as a healing ability. Healing is merely an application of her power but by no means it is limited to that. Ulquiorra in his ignorance and stupidity claimed it was spatial regression. That would suggest ulquiorra saw orihime's ability as some sort of overpowered universal remote with a really big rewind bottom. Later on Aizen bitchslapped ulquiorra like the bitch he is and explained orihime's power was event rejection. This means orihime's power is not an overpowered rewind bottom but a magic eraser. If you don't trust me then you could take your chances with aizen(yet he said we should not trust him lol).
http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/240/13/
http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/240/14/
http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/249/16/
Also, if orihime's ability is not what aizen claims or even something as measly as what ulquiorra in his stupidity claimed it was, the entire plot of bleach makes no sense whatsoever. It was only because of orihime's overpowered abilities that SS made the decisions it made that lead to the war being in it's current state. It would also prove orihime is even less intelligent than what we think since she went as far as claim this:
http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/249/18/

fact is the manga makes no sense in any conceivable sense should orihime's power be some measly over rated healing.

Shola
December 04, 2009, 08:21 PM
I was just saying "healing" because I didn't feel like typing the politically correct term; given the expansiveness of my rant I didn't think anyone woulld nitpick about that little detail. But yea I get what you're saying

haarisa
December 04, 2009, 09:13 PM
I have a theory.... I think the power of rejection is 3 which is represented by the "healing", "shield", and "attack". BUT, what if the true meaning behind each meant as the following:

"Healing" - rejection of an event from happening that has already past (basically, going backwards in time and preventing whatever happened from happening)

"Shield" - preservation of an event

"Attack" - rejection of an event that is about to happen (basically, removing an object from its existence or the opposite of the healing ability)

I know none of this makes any sense as I had a moment where it did, but I lost my train of thought, but my thinking was something along those lines. What do you guys think?

Exodi
December 04, 2009, 11:13 PM
The first thing I want to point out is that the manga has repeatedly stated orihime has no such thing as a healing ability. Healing is merely an application of her power but by no means it is limited to that. Ulquiorra in his ignorance and stupidity claimed it was spatial regression. That would suggest ulquiorra saw orihime's ability as some sort of overpowered universal remote with a really big rewind bottom. Later on Aizen bitchslapped ulquiorra like the bitch he is and explained orihime's power was event rejection. This means orihime's power is not an overpowered rewind bottom but a magic eraser. If you don't trust me then you could take your chances with aizen(yet he said we should not trust him lol).
http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/240/13/
http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/240/14/
http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/249/16/
Also, if orihime's ability is not what aizen claims or even something as measly as what ulquiorra in his stupidity claimed it was, the entire plot of bleach makes no sense whatsoever. It was only because of orihime's overpowered abilities that SS made the decisions it made that lead to the war being in it's current state. It would also prove orihime is even less intelligent than what we think since she went as far as claim this:
http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/249/18/

fact is the manga makes no sense in any conceivable sense should orihime's power be some measly over rated healing.

Sounds like someone doesn't like Ulquiorra :D

kkck
December 04, 2009, 11:20 PM
Sounds like someone doesn't like Ulquiorra :D

Actually I am a fan of the guy but since we are comparing him to aizen.... When I believe there is a significant difference in a particular aspect between two characters usually write stuff like that. In this case I believe aizen is smarter than ulquiorra(by quite a bit).

drakend
December 05, 2009, 09:42 AM
I'm sick of reading people's bullshit about the manga. Inoue doesn't need all of Ulquiorra's ashes in order to restore him. She restored Grimmjaw's arm from nothingness and it has been show quite well:

http://img704.imageshack.us/img704/9136/34557680.jpg
http://img207.imageshack.us/img207/8310/39836562.jpg

Read the manga better instead of making ironical statements about how much absurd it would be, while it has already been shown possible. :rolleyes:

Snake_Cowboy
December 05, 2009, 10:09 AM
Don't get snarky if someone simply disagrees.

If we're going to talk about Orihime's abilities like this, then technically, she might aswell reject Aizen's whole existence and end the manga.

drakend
December 05, 2009, 10:13 AM
Don't get snarky if someone simply disagrees.

It isn't a matter of agreeing or not: it's going against manga evidence, which is foolish. Orihime can reject an event without having the result of that event in order to reject it. It has been shown with Grimmjaw's arm, so I don't see why it should be different with Ulquiorra.

Evil3ye
December 05, 2009, 11:14 AM
It isn't a matter of agreeing or not: it's going against manga evidence, which is foolish. Orihime can reject an event without having the result of that event in order to reject it. It has been shown with Grimmjaw's arm, so I don't see why it should be different with Ulquiorra.
I disagree with your logic because of simple matter, there was a result - Grimmjow was there with no arm. Not the other way round. Same for Hacchi rejecting the demolition of a fraction of her brooch. In both cases there still were reminding parts (speak, 4/5 of the brooch, or well.. GJ himself). Same thing with the two fodder shinigamis, Chad, and Loli and Menoli. There is no evidence that she can revive or reject anything out of nowhere.. because she just didnot do that before, there has always been a 'basis' she worked with.

drakend
December 05, 2009, 11:25 AM
I disagree with your logic because of simple matter, there was a result - Grimmjow was there with no arm. Not the other way round. Same for Hacchi rejecting the demolition of a fraction of her brooch. In both cases there still were reminding parts (speak, 4/5 of the brooch, or well.. GJ himself). Same thing with the two fodder shinigamis, Chad, and Loli and Menoli. There is no evidence that she can revive or reject anything out of nowhere.. because she just didnot do that before, there has always been a 'basis' she worked with.
I disagree with your disagreement! :D
In Grimmjaw's case the event rejected was "Grimmjaw's arm was destroyed by Tousen". Orihime restored it to a previous state without it being around: the rest of Grimmjaw's body is totally irrelevant.

Evil3ye
December 05, 2009, 11:55 AM
I disagree with you disgreement as well :p

If it is like you say it is, she could reject the event somewhere else than on his body - like she would restore it somewhere severed from his body. Say in the air.. a flooting arm or so lol.. or in his ass whatever.. but that's sth we totally have no evidence for, because it didn't happen.

But she took Grimmjow (!!!!!) as how he should be and fixed him that way. He absolutely is not irrelevant.

kkck
December 05, 2009, 01:44 PM
Don't get snarky if someone simply disagrees.

If we're going to talk about Orihime's abilities like this, then technically, she might aswell reject Aizen's whole existence and end the manga.

IMHO she could do it but there are too problems with that:

1.- She would need to contain aizen within her barrier thingy and orihime is nowhere near powerful enough for that.

2.- Her demeanor. It is what keeps her from being a powerful warrior.

White Silver King
December 05, 2009, 09:36 PM
^I agree. Though if she did have the resolve to kill someone and actually mean it I don't think even Aizen would be able to break free of her barrier it would be that powerful. Because remember he called her a god. The man that believes in no god, who thinks himself a god merely because others rely on him, who is the most powerful person in the series called her god. If she truly wanted anyone dead, they would be.

DARK
December 05, 2009, 09:56 PM
If we're going to talk about Orihime's abilities like this, then technically, she might aswell reject Aizen's whole existence and end the manga.

Orihime simply does not have the instinct to kill/hurt. She has the god-like powers to reject even the existences of other people, but is unwilling to even go that far.

kkck
December 05, 2009, 11:50 PM
^I agree. Though if she did have the resolve to kill someone and actually mean it I don't think even Aizen would be able to break free of her barrier it would be that powerful. Because remember he called her a god. The man that believes in no god, who thinks himself a god merely because others rely on him, who is the most powerful person in the series called her god. If she truly wanted anyone dead, they would be.

Aizen did not called orihime a god, she merely said her power trespassed into the big guys territory. Even if she had the intent to kill I doubt she has the power to contain the more powerful characters around. IMHO her reiatsu is at about the level of a VC so IMHO that is as far as she would go in that sense(her reiatsu was comparable to that of a seated officer before and she trained quite a bit before being kidnapped).

haarisa
December 06, 2009, 12:55 AM
Orihime simply does not have the instinct to kill/hurt. She has the god-like powers to reject even the existences of other people, but is unwilling to even go that far.

That's what I feel. For some reason, I think that either Ichigo or Orihime will get close to dying and the manga will end with the other character going berserk against Aizen.

llamapie
December 06, 2009, 02:10 AM
IMHO she could do it but there are too problems with that:

1.- She would need to contain aizen within her barrier thingy and orihime is nowhere near powerful enough for that.

2.- Her demeanor. It is what keeps her from being a powerful warrior.

Ichigo will soon realize he needs to bed her and confine her to a kitchen.

:D That would make perfect sense.

White Silver King
December 06, 2009, 08:26 PM
Aizen did not called orihime a god, she merely said her power trespassed into the big guys territory. Even if she had the intent to kill I doubt she has the power to contain the more powerful characters around. IMHO her reiatsu is at about the level of a VC so IMHO that is as far as she would go in that sense(her reiatsu was comparable to that of a seated officer before and she trained quite a bit before being kidnapped).

He says that but he also says "at their height her powers match those of a deity".

obamamania
December 06, 2009, 11:16 PM
What translation was that? He never said her powers match god, she doesn't have the power to create. She only has the power to disrupt god's creation and undo it. She in a sense "creates" a new reality, but it's not creation because she's simply bringing back a past version of creation.

espadaboyzz
December 07, 2009, 04:00 AM
Actually, Inoue can reject anything she want IF THE WRITER allowed it. But, of course any power will have limitation or something like that. Well, at some point, i do think she can heal something "ashes" away...like Ulquiorra.

drakend
December 07, 2009, 04:25 AM
What translation was that? He never said her powers match god, she doesn't have the power to create. She only has the power to disrupt god's creation and undo it. She in a sense "creates" a new reality, but it's not creation because she's simply bringing back a past version of creation.
I think you are overlooking something critical: negate a negation is the same as creation.
For example:
event A is "Kurosaki Ichigo has no hollow powers".
event B is the negation of event A.
Result: event C is "Kurosaki Ichigo has hollow powers".

Orihime can create by negating an event that states that something doesn't exist!

obamamania
December 07, 2009, 11:04 AM
And you overlook something greater. She can't just create whatever she wants like a God would, she can't create apples out of oranges, or turn water into wine. She can't create new human life from thin air if it never existed before. She only has the power to undo what has been done which in effect does create a new event but it's not as if she controls the nature of her ability. It's simply rejection of events, there is no genesis ability that gives her the vast power of a god. You really think she is equally as powerful as a god in what she can create, I find that idea to be unbelievable (no offense). I've seen this argument before, and it parses concepts in a somewhat misleading way.

Exodi
December 07, 2009, 11:37 AM
I think you are overlooking something critical: negate a negation is the same as creation.
For example:
event A is "Kurosaki Ichigo has no hollow powers".
event B is the negation of event A.
Result: event C is "Kurosaki Ichigo has hollow powers".

Orihime can create by negating an event that states that something doesn't exist!

No...I don't think it quite works that way.

Event A isn't a negation, because the hollow powers never existed in this situation.

You're basically saying Orihime can create something out of something that never existed, which I think is false.

For example, she wouldn't have been able to restore Grimmjow's arm if Grimmjow never had that arm in the first place.

If Ichigo had hollow powers at first, and then they somehow disappeared, then Orihime would be able to restore them, because the Hollow powers did exist in the first place.

That's my take on it.

drakend
December 07, 2009, 01:27 PM
When Orihime will resuscitate all of KT, gone thanks to Aizen, evreybody will agree with me I guess. Mark my words for the future...
It was the same with Ichigonator... nobody believed me when I said it was Ichigo next hollow form and then they got owned by the manga itself... :D
Well I'll have a lifetime cookie stock I guess...

obamamania
December 07, 2009, 02:34 PM
This is a logical fallicy, the things you state don't support your point. Orihime can revive everyone, we already know that. It doesn't take a god to know how to heal, Unohana can heal and I'm sure she doesn't reject events. Can Orihime create new life that never existed? NEVER existed, ever? You keep saying that if she revives a life, then she therefore creates life and has god's power, and that is just plain...illogical. Your definition of creation is limited to the rejection of events, REAL creation involves making something that NEVER before existed in any way, shape or form.

drakend
December 07, 2009, 03:12 PM
This is a logical fallicy, the things you state don't support your point. Orihime can revive everyone, we already know that. It doesn't take a god to know how to heal, Unohana can heal and I'm sure she doesn't reject events. Can Orihime create new life that never existed? NEVER existed, ever? You keep saying that if she revives a life, then she therefore creates life and has god's power, and that is just plain...illogical. Your definition of creation is limited to the rejection of events, REAL creation involves making something that NEVER before existed in any way, shape or form.
Orihime doesn't just heal, she revives people. But that's jst an application of her powers: rejecting events.
Saying something doesn't exist is an event, so negating that event means to create the opposite event, creating that thing.

obamamania
December 07, 2009, 03:27 PM
I don't know what I'm saying wrong here, I specifically said that she creates new events, but there is a specific LIMIT to the types of events created. She can't just randomly say "hey, I want to create a black hole that will destroy hueco mundo" and use her power to reject the stability of that dimension and therefore destroy it with a black hole. Why don't you get that my point is that she can't create whatever she wants, only what the application of her ability will do to a specific object. She can't revert something into a state it was never in, as in she can't reject a disintigrated leg and make it into an arm. It's gonna be a leg. You honestly think she can just create something from nothing just because something is the opposite of nothing? Where in the world have you seen such a thing occur? By that logic, she can create an army of Aizens, since such an army never existed and her power can make the nonexistant existant. Sorry, this doesn't make sense, and I wish someone else would give some imput and tell me where I'm wrong.

Link me to one page where her rejection resembles something other than time reversion. I know it isn't time reversion, but Ulq mistook it for such a thing because it looks so similar. And even if she can add mass to the whole of creation like you claim, it's doubtful that she has the power to do so since she's only a human with limited reiatsu.

Zatono
December 07, 2009, 03:33 PM
Orihime doesn't just heal, she revives people. But that's jst an application of her powers: rejecting events.
Saying something doesn't exist is an event, so negating that event means to create the opposite event, creating that thing.

No. She's not negating events, she's not stopping them from happening or canceling them out with something else. She's reversing the event, and making it seem like it's never happened. Here are multiple definitions of 'event'.

1. something that happens or is regarded as happening; an occurrence, esp. one of some importance.
2. the outcome, issue, or result of anything: The venture had no successful event.
3. something that occurs in a certain place during a particular interval of time.
4. Physics. in relativity, an occurrence that is sharply localized at a single point in space and instant of time. Compare world point.

An event is something that's actually happened. You can't reject something that hasn't happened in order to create something new.

Kravmaga
December 07, 2009, 04:13 PM
I don't know what I'm saying wrong here, I specifically said that she creates new events, but there is a specific LIMIT to the types of events created. She can't just randomly say "hey, I want to create a black hole that will destroy hueco mundo" and use her power to reject the stability of that dimension and therefore destroy it with a black hole. Why don't you get that my point is that she can't create whatever she wants, only what the application of her ability will do to a specific object. She can't revert something into a state it was never in, as in she can't reject a disintigrated leg and make it into an arm. It's gonna be a leg. You honestly think she can just create something from nothing just because something is the opposite of nothing? Where in the world have you seen such a thing occur? By that logic, she can create an army of Aizens, since such an army never existed and her power can make the nonexistant existant. Sorry, this doesn't make sense, and I wish someone else would give some imput and tell me where I'm wrong.

Link me to one page where her rejection resembles something other than time reversion. I know it isn't time reversion, but Ulq mistook it for such a thing because it looks so similar. And even if she can add mass to the whole of creation like you claim, it's doubtful that she has the power to do so since she's only a human with limited reiatsu.

Actually, I kinda understand what drakend means.
Bear with me for a moment here, I'll need to make a flurry of assumptions but I promise most aren't farfetched:
Let's say aizen wtfpwns ss, crushes the pillars and makes the key.
You've got a giant hole and aizen giggling with his new vip pass to the cool kids' club.
Now, let's suppose orihime arrives and goes "wtf wheres my house?!?" and uses her godly powers to negate the whole city.
The question here is: does aizen still have his key?
For sake of plot, it's hard to imagine that he'd actually lose it and go "Sonofa! now i gotta run back and do it again!?!" so in that case, orihime recreated the whole city and aizen keeps his key, that means she created something out of nothing as opposed to just what is currently described as an universal Ctrl-Z button incapable of doing anything but step back.

Who knows... whatever happens, depends purely on what's in kubo's stash this week. =P

kkck
December 07, 2009, 04:28 PM
Orihime doesn't just heal, she revives people. But that's jst an application of her powers: rejecting events.
Saying something doesn't exist is an event, so negating that event means to create the opposite event, creating that thing.

I don't think orihime can reject the non-existence of an event lol. I have thought about that before but I do think it is kinda like stretching her powers. I mean, something not happening is not an event in itself lol. The philosophical and metaphysical implications of this are extraordinary lol, I think this is as deep as we should go in a manga lol.

obamamania
December 07, 2009, 06:27 PM
Actually, I kinda understand what drakend means.
Bear with me for a moment here, I'll need to make a flurry of assumptions but I promise most aren't farfetched:
Let's say aizen wtfpwns ss, crushes the pillars and makes the key.
You've got a giant hole and aizen giggling with his new vip pass to the cool kids' club.
Now, let's suppose orihime arrives and goes "wtf wheres my house?!?" and uses her godly powers to negate the whole city.
The question here is: does aizen still have his key?
For sake of plot, it's hard to imagine that he'd actually lose it and go "Sonofa! now i gotta run back and do it again!?!" so in that case, orihime recreated the whole city and aizen keeps his key, that means she created something out of nothing as opposed to just what is currently described as an universal Ctrl-Z button incapable of doing anything but step back.

Who knows... whatever happens, depends purely on what's in kubo's stash this week. =P

OOH I see what you did there =p But it makes it easier for me to disagree :) The thing about Orihime is that she can negate a single event without undoing other current events that may have at one point been related. She has negated plenty of things, and they have no effect on anything else.

Zatono
December 07, 2009, 06:30 PM
Let's say aizen wtfpwns ss, crushes the pillars and makes the key.
You've got a giant hole and aizen giggling with his new vip pass to the cool kids' club.
Now, let's suppose orihime arrives and goes "wtf wheres my house?!?" and uses her godly powers to negate the whole city.
The question here is: does aizen still have his key?
For sake of plot, it's hard to imagine that he'd actually lose it and go "Sonofa! now i gotta run back and do it again!?!" so in that case, orihime recreated the whole city and aizen keeps his key, that means she created something out of nothing as opposed to just what is currently described as an universal Ctrl-Z button incapable of doing anything but step back.

Actually, I don't think that'd happen. If she rejects events, I don't think she it also effects events that were in relation to a specific one. For instance, when she brought back Grimmjow's arm, it's not like the fireball that destroyed it came back to blast it off again.

Kravmaga
December 07, 2009, 09:13 PM
OOH I see what you did there =p But it makes it easier for me to disagree :) The thing about Orihime is that she can negate a single event without undoing other current events that may have at one point been related. She has negated plenty of things, and they have no effect on anything else.

Wait, if that's the case, wouldn't you actually be agreeing with him?
Think about it, because her using her powers does not affect anything else, shouldn't that mean that the remains of the event she reversed were left untouched? and therefore at the point where she did intervene, she did so without using what was left from the original event, in other words, she created matter/reiatsu/whatever?

If, on the other hand, it turns out that whenever she heals someone's wound, the blood splattered on the ground disappears (there isn't really any good examples for this), then you'd be right that she isn't capable of creating anything but merely ctrl-z'ing events.

I digress, though; there is no way kubo actually overthought about her power to this extent. It's like asking "if a tree falls in the forest and orihime reverses it back into shape, did it ever make a sound?" =P

obamamania
December 07, 2009, 09:20 PM
You know, this really is tough to explain, the logic trap is hard to get around. I think something is wrong with me today lol, how many times am I gonna say that I agree that she creates new events based on old events. I didn't go through the obnoxious examples for nothing, please please please give me evidence that the existence or non-existence of a theoretical object that has never existed in all of history is considered an event that can therefore be rejected and formed into a new event. Say that in all of history, a purple, one-eyed, cero shooting, kyokasuigetsu using hollow has never existed or had even been considered (God wtf am I talking about). Drakend's idea is that the nonexistence of this creature is an event. Therefore, Orihime can materialize it by rejecting the fact that it doesn't exist. Yeah...

White Silver King
December 07, 2009, 10:22 PM
Who ever said there weren't just gods of uncreation (in the manga) as well as creation? If there is a god who can uncreate anything that another god creates then you can see it one of two ways:

1) they are both gods: power to uncreate and power to create

2) neither of them are gods: their is nothing for someone to create if it's constantly being uncreated, there's nothing to uncreate if nothing is being created i.e. nullifying both their abilities.

benelori
December 08, 2009, 11:18 AM
I think Orihime can reject anything...at least the potential is there...but she has weak reiatsu, and she had problems with rejecting unreleased ulq's reiatsu from ichigo's body...so her power is great one of the greatest, but the powers potential could only be achieved by monsters like aizen, yama, spirit king etc...so as long she is a human she can't do anything even if her power is evolving...the boundaries of her being human won't let her achieve the peak of her powers

Shola
December 08, 2009, 11:48 AM
Thats interesting but I think Orihimes power disqualifies her from being put in the human reiatsu category. From what we know, Chad is a human and his reiatsu level is way above average (its just that its applications are wack) but because of his powers his reiatsu is no longer human level. Can the same thing be said about Ichigo?
However, I dont think Orihime's power is as uber as people are being mislead to believe; its just healing. I feel Aizen was blowing hot air, and Im more inclined to believe Ulqiorra was correct because I notice that when she heals peoples full body, for example their hair doesnt grow back or in this case, reject its being cut prior.

Snake_Cowboy
December 08, 2009, 11:49 AM
I think Orihime can reject anything...at least the potential is there...but she has weak reiatsu, and she had problems with rejecting unreleased ulq's reiatsu from ichigo's body...so her power is great one of the greatest, but the powers potential could only be achieved by monsters like aizen, yama, spirit king etc...so as long she is a human she can't do anything even if her power is evolving...the boundaries of her being human won't let her achieve the peak of her powers

Thank you! You managed to phrase precisely what I've been trying to tell people about Orihime's powers.

The ability to reject stuff, in itself, is extremely potent, but Orihime cannot just use it to re-shape the whole universe as she will. Her reiatsu is around that of the average vice-captain, at most, and it hasn't grown much throughout the series. Without it, I don't think she can do something like rejecting Aizen's whole existence, even if she could have a 'clear shot' at him, so to speak.

benelori
December 08, 2009, 12:06 PM
Ichigo was still human and he managed to block Rukia's sensing ability in the beginning of the series...Shun Shun Rikka are the manifestation of Orihime's soul, so it's similar to zanpaktou...so she probably ain't human anymore...in terms of entity...but the fact remain...her reiatsu is low, so she cannot hope to reject stuff more powerful the she is...it's proven by her latest actions...she won't be as powerful, like somebody with bankai and centuries old, or a hybrid...her powers are unique,so I think it's safe to say she's human...like quincy are human...
And it's not just healing...even if Aizen was just saying random things...even ulquiorra said that it's similar to space-time manipulation...luppi said it as well, hacchi noted that her powers are similar to his and he is not a healer...
I mean he restored Grimmjow's arm, but if U were watching closely, his arm appeared from thin air and it wasn't fast regenration like we saw with ulq...
So it's not just healing, it's more...and she always sayd "I reject" which might point in the direction Aizen said

haarisa
December 08, 2009, 12:52 PM
Question for everyone... what is the true strength of Ichigo? Here he is blocking the strength of 1 million soul cutters like it's nothing.

http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/151/06/

and he beats the shikai of VCs bare handed a little later. Without even releasing.

obamamania
December 08, 2009, 01:18 PM
Point is, until I see it myself, she cannot turn theory into reality in a creative way. Yeah, she creates a technical new existence by returning an object to a previous state, but if you think you can argue with technicalities then you're just wrong. God's aren't defined by technicalities, they're defined by absolute power.

kkck
December 08, 2009, 02:04 PM
Thats interesting but I think Orihimes power disqualifies her from being put in the human reiatsu category. From what we know, Chad is a human and his reiatsu level is way above average (its just that its applications are wack) but because of his powers his reiatsu is no longer human level. Can the same thing be said about Ichigo?
However, I dont think Orihime's power is as uber as people are being mislead to believe; its just healing. I feel Aizen was blowing hot air, and Im more inclined to believe Ulqiorra was correct because I notice that when she heals peoples full body, for example their hair doesnt grow back or in this case, reject its being cut prior.

Well, back in SS arc orihime was said to have a reiatsu stronger than that 11th seated officer guide and we know the reaitsu of an 11th seat is many times stronger than that of a human. IMHO orihime right now has the reaitsu of at least a VC.

I still think orihime's power has to be what it is said to be in the manga. If that is not the case then many aspects of the manga make no sense at all. I mean, take a look at this:
http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/314/10/

It is not just aizen who knows about the nature of orihime's power. SS understood very well and that is why they forced back the forces they sent to KK and then in desperation attempted to rescue her by sending 4 captains to rescue her. I mean, the entirety of the current plot has been driven by aizen's and SS knowledge of orihime's power.

IMHO by now it should be an unquestionable fact that orihime's powers are exactly what aizen said they were -nothing more, nothing less- (unless someone can provide a link with evidence of the contrary).

Also not sure what you meant about the hair.

Evil3ye
December 08, 2009, 03:40 PM
Aizen might just left her because he has already manipulated her somehow. She's probably under on of his hypnosis or somewhat, that's at least what I think.
Grimmjow but also Ulquiorra stated that Ichigo should not be worried about her physical but the mental health. That's still sth that hasn't been revealed yet.

DARK
December 08, 2009, 08:45 PM
I think Orihime can reject anything...at least the potential is there...but she has weak reiatsu, and she had problems with rejecting unreleased ulq's reiatsu from ichigo's body...so her power is great one of the greatest, but the powers potential could only be achieved by monsters like aizen, yama, spirit king etc...so as long she is a human she can't do anything even if her power is evolving...the boundaries of her being human won't let her achieve the peak of her powers

If Orihime is unable to reject leftover reiatsu from an unreleased Espada, there's no way she can reject the REAL monsters especially Aizen. If anything, Aizen will get the kill in on Orihime and/or seduce her before she has the chance.

kkck
December 08, 2009, 08:58 PM
If Orihime is unable to reject leftover reiatsu from an unreleased Espada, there's no way she can reject the REAL monsters especially Aizen. If anything, Aizen will get the kill in on Orihime and/or seduce her before she has the chance.

SHe eventually could heal the reiatsu in ichigo's wounds though.
http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/237/08/
http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/238/09/

http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/277/11/
http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/278/22-23/

Orihime can reject the reiatsu, she simply has trouble doing it. It takes her more time. If she absolutely could not do that, then ichigo would have died a number of times already(except for the time ulquiorra cero-e him).

Gran Maestro
December 09, 2009, 05:15 AM
Can Orihime heal herself? (http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/195/05/)

Evil3ye
December 09, 2009, 07:58 AM
Can Orihime heal herself? (http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/195/05/)
http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/274/09/
http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/277/04/

to me it looks like she can :p

Shola
December 09, 2009, 06:01 PM
There's a fallacy being trolled about on bleach forums; and that is the issue of "strength". Strength doesn't count for shit in shounen manga, especially in bleach, it all boils down to technique. What hitsugaya said about the 10 vasto lords in relation to SS was utter bullshit.

He doesn't know the abilities of his own goddamn peers much less the ones of the VLs. His statement was just nonsense.

Someone with 1000th seat level reiatsu can clear a whole battlefield with a zanpakuto as hax as tousen or aizens. Don't get sucked up into the notion that because someone says another person is subjectively "stronger" that they have any chance of beating someone whose subjectively stated as being "weaker".

That's why people are always tight at bleach; its because people we are led to believe are strong constantly get whupped by physically weak people; and yet we still fail to recognize the fact that strength/reiatsu level doesn't mean anythuing in bleach, its just used to decieve us so that we will be pleasantly shocked at the conclusion but in actuality we just become disappointed and fed up at the nonsensical matchups/victories

Gran Maestro
December 09, 2009, 06:05 PM
Someone with 1000th seat level reiatsu can clear a whole battlefield with a zanpakuto as hax as tousen or aizens.

Someone with 1000th seat level reiatsu would not have Aizen's ability.


That's why people are always tight at bleach; its because people we are led to believe are strong constantly get whupped by physically weak people; and yet we still fail to recognize the fact that strength/reiatsu level doesn't mean anythuing in bleach, its just used to decieve us so that we will be pleasantly shocked at the conclusion but in actuality we just become disappointed and fed up at the nonsensical matchups/victories

Unless you have a reiatsu-meter, how do you know whether or not the one with relatively weaker reiatsu won?

Shola
December 09, 2009, 06:12 PM
:mad ?! What?!
First off, ability isn't determined by reiatsu level so let's just not waste anytime on that bullshit comment *waves hand in shoo motion at comment*

That's a legitimate question however I wasn't just talking about reiatsu I was talking about physical strength as well; or would u like to claim hitsugaya was "stronger" than halibel or byak and ken "stronger" than yammy or haachi "stronger" than barragan. Gimme a break! Ppl stop putting forward arguments for arguments sake geez

Trotter
December 09, 2009, 06:15 PM
People have missed something. A person with extremely weak reiatsu could never beat anyone at say, Captain level. No matter their ability. Why? Everyone forgets that when two Reiatsu's clash, the weaker one gets hurt. Remember the first Kenpachi fight when Ichigo got his hands busted? Case in point. This also goes to show that not everyone has a giant Reiatsu difference from each other and that Captain-Class is universal and that most of the Captains, except the Seniors possibly, are relativity equal energy/power wise.

Gran Maestro
December 09, 2009, 06:18 PM
:mad ?! What?!
First off, ability isn't determined by reiatsu level so let's just not waste anytime one that bullshit comment *waves hand in shoo motion at comment*

That's a legitimate question however I wasn't just talking about reiatsu I was talking about physical strength as well; or would u like to claim hitsugaya was "stronger" than halibel or byak and ken "stronger" than yammy or haachi "stronger" than barragan. Gimme a break! Ppl stop putting forward arguments for arguments sake geez

Shola, I'd really like to give you a detailed explanation but it would be completely off-topic. If you want to learn my opinion about this issue, read my discussion with Forever_Melody starting from here (http://mangahelpers.com/forums/showthread.php?p=1654834#post1654834).

Shola
December 09, 2009, 06:20 PM
Yea but that's all nonsense as it has never happened since. And my saying 1000th seat level reiatsu was just me being fictitious anyone of that level has no business even saying "hello" at this point in the manga

Shola
December 09, 2009, 06:33 PM
@kkck
I was there in that discussion :/. I'm hurt u don't remember :crying but it still doesn't sway my opinion. Well lemme ask this at the risk of going off topic. Do u believe reiatsu level is something one is born with or something that grows with the individual? Depending on ur answer u may destroy ur whole argument

trzykroki
December 09, 2009, 06:33 PM
That's a legitimate question however I wasn't just talking about reiatsu I was talking about physical strength as well;

Question: shinigamis are ghosts, aren't they? Isn't reiatsu all they have? They don't have real muscles, do they :blink ?

mr.danly
December 09, 2009, 06:35 PM
People have missed something. A person with extremely weak reiatsu could never beat anyone at say, Captain level. No matter their ability. Why? Everyone forgets that when two Reiatsu's clash, the weaker one gets hurt. Remember the first Kenpachi fight when Ichigo got his hands busted? Case in point. This also goes to show that not everyone has a giant Reiatsu difference from each other and that Captain-Class is universal and that most of the Captains, except the Seniors possibly, are relativity equal energy/power wise.

well that's only in a physical fight. for example, let's say, for argument's sake, that barragan had puny reiatsu. It wouldn't matter, because his respira ability is so hax that it can destroy almost anyone. barragan could've had the reiatsu of a fly, it wouldn't matter because his ability is so powerful. so your argument makes sense for physical fights, but when you're talking about all other kinds of fights, reiatsu has very little impact on the fight.

Hangender
December 09, 2009, 06:41 PM
I would say reiatsu matters a whole lot.

Why? Simple, everything we see in the manga is pretty much reiatsu.

Barrigan's breath? reiatsu
Aizen's hypnosis? reiatsu

When 2 reiatsu goes against each other, the stronger one wins.

Of course, one can bring up the BS that

1)there are different type of reiatsu...like kudo reiatsu or zanpakto reiatsu

or

2)there are "more than" reiatsu to bleach.

But..there is no evidence for that :D

Gran Maestro
December 09, 2009, 06:46 PM
If you have puny reiatsu, you get this treatment (http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/155/05/) and your abilities don't help you.

kkck
December 09, 2009, 06:47 PM
@kkck
I was there in that discussion :/. I'm hurt u don't remember :crying but it still doesn't sway my opinion. Well lemme ask this at the risk of going off topic. Do u believe reiatsu level is something one is born with or something that grows with the individual? Depending on ur answer u may destroy ur whole argument

Haven't been here for the last 3 hours so not sure of what you are talkng about lol. In any case, I think the whole reiatsu thing has elements of being born with and it being acquired. Take ichigo, the guy has had captain level reaitsu and spirit awareness since he was a little kid. How exactly he got such a thing has yet to be explained but it would seem he has had it since he was born. Take chad then. He recently became spiritually aware and over time has developed his power to the point of being able to fight above most if not all the VC. Someone born with higher spirit awareness is probably going to be more talented in the long run since the whole thing might be more natural to him. Still, not sur this was addressed to me lol.

Shola
December 09, 2009, 06:50 PM
*scratches head* what's going on with people? Strength only matters in a purely physical fight and as anyone with sense knows those are relegated to ichigo and kenpachi because kubo wants them looking good. If it comes down to a fight based on technique reiatsu level isn't relevant.

@hangender
Ur post is devoid of any logic. Well not totally really :amuse but I mean aizen and barragans are KIDO based they don't have anything to do with their reiatsu level; that was the whole point of the discussion; did u even read it?

Moved, but removed a bit of flaming. >.>;

Hangender
December 09, 2009, 06:58 PM
Did you just say:

"but I mean aizen and barragans are KIDO based they don't have anything to do with their reiatsu level"

Kido = a bust of reiatsu

Which would imply any swords with kido ability use reiatsu as their base.

Heck, we even know releasing the sword requires reiatsu, so there is proof right there higher reiatsu = win.

Shola
December 09, 2009, 07:07 PM
@gran
Yama is an exception and I haven't seen the plot jutsu exhibited ever before so I don't take that into consideration.

@kkck
Well I'm implying that peoples ability is predetermined at birth and their reiatsu isn't so saying someone has a hax zanpakuto because they have high reiatsu is false because aizen is the only one that fits into that

Gran Maestro
December 09, 2009, 07:14 PM
If it comes down to a fight based on technique reiatsu level isn't relevant.

How did you get this impression from the manga? On the contrary, Kenpachi, who most probably has more reiatsu than Tousen, defeated Tousen's technique. Manga evidence suggests otherwise.
[hr]

@gran
Yama is an exception and I haven't seen the plot jutsu exhibited ever before so I don't take that into consideration.

Exception to what? And what is plot jutsu? :blink

Shola
December 09, 2009, 07:19 PM
@hangender
*sigh* I meant kido based zan as opposed to physical zan not whether it had to utilize reiatsu or not. Seriously? :/


The ken fight was plot induced; nothing like that will ever happen again; EVER.

Idk how you say the manga suggests otherwise when technique beats pure power 99 percent of the time except for when that plot failure known as tousen vs ken happened.

Hangender
December 09, 2009, 07:21 PM
To sum up the discussion, basically the fact of the matter is reiatsu matters.

Remember that swords are their own spirit, so they have reiatsu as well, so in fights its actually a combination of zanpakuto reiatsu + owner reiatsu.

Which is why some people get confused and think that reiatsu doesn't matter when a seemly "weak" character defeats a "strong" character. It can be explained by zanpakuto's reiatsu.

kkck
December 09, 2009, 07:22 PM
How did you get this impression from the manga? On the contrary, Kenpachi, who most probably has more reiatsu than Tousen, defeated Tousen's technique. Manga evidence suggests otherwise.
<hr noshade size="1">


Exception to what? And what is plot jutsu? :blink

The amount of reiatsu is relevant depending on the difference of it between two fighters. Lets take a extreme case. Lets say we have kempachi against a VC. Not amount of kido, shunpo, shikai or bankai will make any of the VC have a shread of a chance against kempachi even if he is tied down and has his 5 senses removed. Kempachi can just remove his eyepatch(somehow, lol) and the VC will eventually fall from exhaustion from being exposed to such heavy reaitsu. On the other hand, once we are dealing with captains and espada we are talking about individuals who have mostly comparable amounts of reiatsu. Even if the difference appear to be quite large at times, mostly they are comparable to some extent meaning that the actual abilities, individual skills and techniques they have will be highly relevant.

Athrin
December 09, 2009, 07:23 PM
To sum up the discussion, basically the fact of the matter is reiatsu matters.

Remember that swords are their own spirit, so they have reiatsu as well, so in fights its actually a combination of zanpakuto reiatsu + owner reiatsu.

Which is why some people get confused and think that reiatsu doesn't matter when a seemly "weak" character defeats a "strong" character. It can be explained by zanpakuto's reiatsu.

To add on to that, Zangetsu explained it when Ichigo when fighting Kenpachi.

Gran Maestro
December 09, 2009, 07:26 PM
The ken fight was plot induced; nothing like that will ever happen again; EVER.

Idk how you say the manga suggests otherwise when technique beats pure power 99 percent of the time except for when that plot failure known as tousen vs ken happened.

Can you give a few examples to 99% of the time? Who did defeat who with his/her puny reiatsu?

Shola
December 09, 2009, 07:28 PM
Oh boy :notrust
Reiatsu "matters" but if someone has high reiatsu it doesn't equal a win; that's pretty much common sense.

And wait.....are we now insinuating that the kenpachi fight wasn't plot protected? If so then wow.

Gran Maestro
December 09, 2009, 07:31 PM
The amount of reiatsu is relevant depending on the difference of it between two fighters. Lets take a extreme case. Lets say we have kempachi against a VC. Not amount of kido, shunpo, shikai or bankai will make any of the VC have a shread of a chance against kempachi even if he is tied down and has his 5 senses removed. Kempachi can just remove his eyepatch(somehow, lol) and the VC will eventually fall from exhaustion from being exposed to such heavy reaitsu.

I agree.


On the other hand, once we are dealing with captains and espada we are talking about individuals who have mostly comparable amounts of reiatsu. Even if the difference appear to be quite large at times, mostly they are comparable to some extent meaning that the actual abilities, individual skills and techniques they have will be highly relevant.

I think we agree. Yes, if their reiatsu are on par, then the technique matters but if there's a considerable difference, then the weaker one and the technique get owned just like in a Kenpachi-VC fight.

DARK
December 09, 2009, 07:35 PM
Both reiatsu and techniques play a role in deciding the victor of a match. We all know that someone with a monstrous amount of reiatsu will overpower their opponent if they have less (i.e. Ichigo, Kenpachi, Aizen). It is natural for a Captain-ranked Shinigami/Vizard or an Espada-ranked Arrancar to overpower any opponent who is weaker than them (i.e. VC, Fraccion). They have more experience and are typically stronger in all areas of combat.
When the reiatsu difference is not as grand, it mostly depends on the technique(s) a character uses. For example, Yumichika has effortlessly defeated Shuuhei and Charlotte Coolhourne (both instances, he was overpowered by his opponents) just by using his reiatsu-draining Shikai. Another primary example was when Kurotsuchi had replaced his organs prior to his fight with Szayel Aporro. Hadn't he evaluate the battle beforehand, he would have probably lost.
Luck and interference also play a role; hadn't Shinji come to bail Ichigo's ass from his second fight with Grimmjow, both he and Rukia would have died. The same also applies for the many times where Ichigo could have been killed in the Soul Society if it weren't for the protection of his hollow mask. Hollow interference has actually helped Ichigo defeat both Byakuya and Ulquiorra; if it weren't for the hollow, he would have probably lost/died.
Information, techniques, luck, all of that play a role in a fight.

Hangender
December 09, 2009, 07:37 PM
Both reiatsu and techniques play a role in deciding the victor of a match. We all know that someone with a monstrous amount of reiatsu will overpower their opponent if they have less (i.e. Ichigo, Kenpachi, Aizen). It is natural for a Captain-ranked Shinigami/Vizard or an Espada-ranked Arrancar to overpower any opponent who is weaker than them (i.e. VC, Fraccion). They have more experience and are typically stronger in all areas of combat.
When the reiatsu difference is not as grand, it mostly depends on the technique(s) a character uses. For example, Yumichika has effortlessly defeated Shuuhei and Charlotte Coolhourne (both instances, he was overpowered by his opponents) just by using his reiatsu-draining Shikai. Another primary example was when Kurotsuchi had replaced his organs prior to his fight with Szayel Aporro. Hadn't he evaluate the battle beforehand, he would have probably lost.
Luck and interference also play a role; hadn't Shinji come to bail Ichigo's ass from his second fight with Grimmjow, both he and Rukia would have died. The same also applies for the many times where Ichigo could have been killed in the Soul Society if it weren't for the protection of his hollow mask. Hollow interference has actually helped Ichigo defeat both Byakuya and Ulquiorra; if it weren't for the hollow, he would have probably lost/died.
Information, techniques, luck, all of that plays a role in deciding the victor.

Exactly, there is no need to resort to "plot jutsu!" as an explanation of the outcome of the battle.

But meh, fanboys does what fanboys do best.

Gran Maestro
December 09, 2009, 07:38 PM
Oh boy :notrust
Reiatsu "matters" but if someone has high reiatsu it doesn't equal a win; that's pretty much common sense.

99% of the time, it equals a win. This is common sense. ;)


And wait.....are we now insinuating that the kenpachi fight wasn't plot protected? If so then wow.

I already told you that plot protection only applies to Ichigo.

Gran Maestro
December 09, 2009, 07:48 PM
1. Haach vs barragan p.s. Save that bullshit about it being a conjoined effort between soi and haachi as though their reiatsus somehow coombine. It was haachis TECHNIQUE that offed him


2. Stark vs L&R I don't really consider it a loss but they got bested

3. Grimm vs Ichigo- paralyzed ichigo with reiatsu roar

4. Tousen vs most of vizards

5. Halibel vs Hitsugaya and please save that shit about him having higher reiatsu

6. Aizen and all of SS; he can kill them whenever he wants as alluded by unohana

7. Yammy and ken and byak

8. Basically every fight in bleach

Can you specify the guys who overcome overwhelming odds with their technique despite their puny reiatsu? And it was Soifon & Hachigen vs Barragan, no matter what.


@gran
Yes u told me that (not that that matters). But u seemed to have fallen silent when everyone on the topic told u what u were saying was utter nonsense as kenpachis fight was the definition of plot protection as most his fights are. Might wanna go back to yesterdays posts smart guy. (*snickers "I told you plot protection only appliies to Ichigo") what a laff!! Twohandkendo-kai anyone? Be serious.....please.

Who said what I was saying was utter nonsense? :blink

Shola
December 09, 2009, 08:01 PM
@gran
Ok this convo is over. As I said 5 hrs ago on the prediction thread I just meant someone with considerably higher reiatsu against someone with a respectable level. Of course common sense would tell the average person that if someone had a zan comparable to tousens or aizens they will slaughter no matter the reiatsu of their opponent. But because it hasn't been objectively illustrated in the manga you guys will simply argue me down using ur own broken logic; so I gave you guys the benefit of the doubt. And yet ppl are still ignoring the hypothetical situation I've already illustrated and still talking about puny reiatsu vs yama level. I'm trying to have an intelligent debate and people are labeling me as a fanboy and ignoring my examples idk what else to say yo.

Go back to the post if u wanna know who was disagreeing with you bro

Saint Markus
December 09, 2009, 08:13 PM
well, Uryuu defeated Mayuri and then lost to Szayelaporro who then gets bested by Mayuri in the end.

or Ichigo having trouble fighting Dordoonie after the SS arc and Vaizard training, but manage to come to a draw against Kenpachi and Kenpachi would've cut Dordoonie down faster than he did Tesla. plus, in my opinion, Kenpachi was toying with Nnoitra on the fact that he's taking on Yammy now in his release form and has yet to unleash his full power.

as far as the so-called "powers" go, it's all part of the story and how it goes. there's nothing traditional about Bleach compared to other mangas. for example, in my on assumption here, Ichigo is technically the "strongest" character in Bleach because Kubo has already written out that he has unlimited power, but the problem is (as many people have mentioned already years ago) he has a hard time controlling the usage of his powers.

when, Ichigo finally learns to do that he'll be on par with the general commander or even stronger. Aizen may be powerful, but his shi kai is what gives him a simple advantage period. without that alone, he'd be a little easier to fight against.

i think Shinji's shi kai can reverse space around him when he attacks or is attacked and i can't wait to see him use it. i think it's similar to what what Ragenzi from Vampire Hunter D (1985) did when he fought D for the first time.

p.s., Grimmjow to me was the only "real deal" espada out of the whole damn group, could careless what his rank was, he was bada$$ and he proved it.

Gran Maestro
December 09, 2009, 08:19 PM
Ok this convo is over. As I said 5 hrs ago on the prediction thread I just meant someone with considerably higher reiatsu against someone with a respectable level.

Do you remember these words that started the discussion: "Someone with 1000th seat level reiatsu can clear a whole battlefield with a zanpakuto as hax as tousen or aizens." Is 1000th seat level a respectable level? If you did choose your words more carefully, perhaps there would be no discussion.


Of course common sense would tell the average person that if someone had a zan comparable to tousens or aizens they will slaughter no matter the reiatsu of their opponent. But because it hasn't been objectively illustrated in the manga you guys will simply argue me down using ur own broken logic; so I gave you guys the benefit of the doubt. And yet ppl are still ignoring the hypothetical situation I've already illustrated and still talking about puny reiatsu vs yama level. I'm trying to have an intelligent debate and people are labeling me as a fanboy and ignoring my examples idk what else to say yo.

Shola, you are missing something. Kubo is the master of Bleach, nobody can overrule him, not me, not you, not anybody else. If I had the ability to shape Bleach according to my wishes, things would be much different and consequently my opinions would be different. We can't argue what we expect to see in Bleach, we have to go by Kubo's rules. Kubo's rules may not make perfect sense but when it comes to Bleach, Kubo is the judge.


Go back to the post if u wanna know who was disagreeing with you bro

People can certainly disagree with me. But I don't think anybody said my opinion was utter nonsense, there's a difference.

Shola
December 09, 2009, 08:28 PM
Yes I remember that 1000 seat level reiatsu was said by ME. I later recanted it because of reasons I stated prior and people continued with it as though the hypothetical situation was still in effect even though I changed it.
Furthermore, I agree with the kubo comment that's wh it was a hypothetical situation requiring common sense and deductive reasoning rather than objective proof cuz there wasn't any given. Someone with weak reiatsu defeating someone like kenpachi in a bloodlust battle? Of course! He's in the dome; he's stunned his head is lopped off swiftly. Reiatsu level dodnt have any impact inside tousens dome so where is this comig from that it will?

locke002paul
December 09, 2009, 08:44 PM
Really now ... the truth is somewhere at the middle. I think DARK's post sums it up best. Any battle outcome or event can be explained through the basic mechanics of the manga. There are soooooo many variables in a bleach fight that it's really funny to hear plot-kai or whatever. I'm not pointing fingers at anyone (I've been biased too), it's just that we don't wanna see it because we all have our favorite characters and hate it when they lose.

Here ... read this again ... a really good post ... nice one man:


Both reiatsu and techniques play a role in deciding the victor of a match. We all know that someone with a monstrous amount of reiatsu will overpower their opponent if they have less (i.e. Ichigo, Kenpachi, Aizen). It is natural for a Captain-ranked Shinigami/Vizard or an Espada-ranked Arrancar to overpower any opponent who is weaker than them (i.e. VC, Fraccion). They have more experience and are typically stronger in all areas of combat.
When the reiatsu difference is not as grand, it mostly depends on the technique(s) a character uses. For example, Yumichika has effortlessly defeated Shuuhei and Charlotte Coolhourne (both instances, he was overpowered by his opponents) just by using his reiatsu-draining Shikai. Another primary example was when Kurotsuchi had replaced his organs prior to his fight with Szayel Aporro. Hadn't he evaluate the battle beforehand, he would have probably lost.
Luck and interference also play a role; hadn't Shinji come to bail Ichigo's ass from his second fight with Grimmjow, both he and Rukia would have died. The same also applies for the many times where Ichigo could have been killed in the Soul Society if it weren't for the protection of his hollow mask. Hollow interference has actually helped Ichigo defeat both Byakuya and Ulquiorra; if it weren't for the hollow, he would have probably lost/died.
Information, techniques, luck, all of that play a role in a fight.

PS:( something ON-TOPIC ... so we won't get yelled at or stfu-ed by some wanna-be moderator )

Regarding the fight of the week, Koma vs Tousen. What I love about this fight is that it could go either way. Yeah, Tousen definitely has the upper hand, but Komamura could get some wolf-form based power-up or show some kind of wicked TECHNIQUE of his own ... or simply Yamamoto could butt-in and roast him.

Shola
December 09, 2009, 09:03 PM
@locke
This old post isn't addressing you; its yesterdays discussion between me and gran. I implore any and all who are calling me a fanboy or saying I'm being subjective in my comments, to read yesterdays discussion regarding the tous n ken figh.


Ur claiming that Im rationalizing it somehow without using logic in order to sate my disappoinment in the defeat of my favorite character. First off theres no need to to give me a child psychology lecture, cuz its utter bullshit. Secondly, for one to say that fight wasnt plot protected is beyond ridiculous.
The reason why I say it was a plot protected fight isnt because Tousen was defeated it was they way in which he was defeated, it didnt make any sense. This coupled with witnessing how he dispatched the vizards only cemented my belief that it was a bogus fight. I've never denied that he lost, and Ill tell you that my loyalty to Tousen pales in comparison with other fanboys, Ill be honest, he's beginning to annoy me with the way he treated Hisagi. But even if I wasnt a fanboy its easy to see it was a plot protected fight. im not a fan of any of the characters I listed as being losers in plot protected fights, but its difficult for a logical thinking person to claim they werent plot protected, that much is obvious.

locke002paul
December 09, 2009, 09:22 PM
Not pointing any fingers at you ... really. [I misunderstood]. I actually liked what DARK said and more or less wanted to reiterate his idea.

Now, on the Tousen matter, and plot protected fights. I think we can say that about every bleach battle so far. Hell, even that shit hollow at the beginning that offed Rukia and made her give Ichigo her powers was protected by plot ( rukia could've wasted him soooooo easily at the level of her powers).

Yeah, Tousen acted stupid in his fight with Kenpachi, he could've gone for the head and try to kill him, but Kenpachi could've also grabbed him by the collar and cut his head off prior to the release of his Bankai.

LE : I get the feeling I misunderstood what you wanted to say with the old post between you and gran ... my bad if so.

benelori
December 10, 2009, 10:47 AM
locke's post and dark's post make the most sense in this debate and I agree with them...I just wanna add that, a manga generally contains messages that in someway are aimed at the readers...also kubo said that his characters come first and plot second...understanding this, we can say that the characters in bleach, except maybe for Ichigo have a clear vision of their life,attitude and direction in which they are headed...so if tousen chooses yo lecture kenpachi in a place where he can't hear then that means that he is very fond of his own ideals and he wants to defeat his opponent in a 100% manner both physical way and ideological way...

Kenapchi didn't use kendo without the eyepatch...why?his ideal is to enjoy the fight and make it last longer...without his ideology he would be an empty character and same with tousen...both characters way of life, statements, ideals are reflected both in everyday life and battlefied...
Every fight in bleach is plot protected, but if U consder what I said before U'll see it makes more sense this way

DARK
December 10, 2009, 07:47 PM
You can add Zaraki's Kendo use and Soi Fon's Bankai to that as well.

I was only counting from this arc (Fake Karakura). Besides, Kenpachi's Kendo usage didn't technically classify as a zanpakuto ability.
In addition, Soifon's Bankai was only used starting from this arc. From what we saw, it was just a standard ability, not a new one that Kubo had to invent just for a "deus ex machina."
All I'm saying is that Komamura better reveal all of the tricks up his Bankai's sleeve. Tousen (with just the mask alone) could have effortlessly defeated the Bankai and/or killed Komamura. There's no telling what he could in the resurrecion.

elitefox
December 10, 2009, 07:56 PM
I was only counting from this arc (Fake Karakura). Besides, Kenpachi's Kendo usage didn't technically classify as a zanpakuto ability.
In addition, Soifon's Bankai was only used starting from this arc. From what we saw, it was just a standard ability, not a new one that Kubo had to invent just for a "deus ex machina."
All I'm saying is that Komamura better reveal all of the tricks up his Bankai's sleeve. Tousen (with just the mask alone) could have effortlessly defeated the Bankai and/or killed Komamura. There's no telling what he could in the resurrecion.

I see an ulquoira ending in Tousen hahahaha


btw, how the hell did koma destroyed Tousen's arm? Did he counter attack?

zerocooldx
December 10, 2009, 08:35 PM
I was only counting from this arc (Fake Karakura). Besides, Kenpachi's Kendo usage didn't technically classify as a zanpakuto ability.
In addition, Soifon's Bankai was only used starting from this arc. From what we saw, it was just a standard ability, not a new one that Kubo had to invent just for a "deus ex machina."
All I'm saying is that Komamura better reveal all of the tricks up his Bankai's sleeve. Tousen (with just the mask alone) could have effortlessly defeated the Bankai and/or killed Komamura. There's no telling what he could in the resurrecion.

I was talking about Shinigami using never before seen or known abilities to "win" battles. And Soi Fon, Zaraki, Hitsugaya, Kyoraku and etc. have all used some new ability regardless of Shiaki or Banki. So for Komamura to use a never before seen ability would be right in line.

Scribbles33
December 10, 2009, 09:49 PM
Im actually not sure if this is the right place to post this but I've been going back and reading rom the beginning. Anyone have any idea who patches up the kingfisher http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-chapter-25-page-17.html ?

Exodi
December 10, 2009, 10:45 PM
Im actually not sure if this is the right place to post this but I've been going back and reading rom the beginning. Anyone have any idea who patches up the kingfisher http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-chapter-25-page-17.html ?

That appears to be Iceringer.

He was one of the Arrancar that Chad and Ishida (particularly Ishida) fought upon first entering Hueco Mundo.

The other guy looks like D-Roy, who Rukia defeated in the human world.

Lunatic Scream
December 11, 2009, 06:11 PM
I was talking about Shinigami using never before seen or known abilities to "win" battles. And Soi Fon, Zaraki, Hitsugaya, Kyoraku and etc. have all used some new ability regardless of Shiaki or Banki. So for Komamura to use a never before seen ability would be right in line.

Most fights in Bleach end that way. If a character hasn't shown their shikai or bankai ability, and they are in a fight, chances are they'll win. We ALL know that they have a bankai or shikai available, so it's not out of left field. It's when they show another ability that seems to be solely so they'll win, or don't have to reveal their shikai/bankai that bugs me. It just seems a little disappointing to me. A small list:

Kenpachi's Kendo
Hitsugaya's Ice Obelisk
Hachi's Portal2UrTummy
Ichigonator

All with very little forewarning that these techniques even existed. It's like: "Oh man, the suspense is building, how will this person win?! They CAN'T win! Ohmygosh! Oh wait they pulled out some random ability they just remembered they had even though they've been in near death situations before... woohoo."

Exodi
December 11, 2009, 06:31 PM
I still don't see anything wrong with Kenpachi applying "kendo".
All he did was swing with both hands....which is not crazy or random at all.

toussaintac
December 11, 2009, 07:14 PM
Most fights in Bleach end that way. If a character hasn't shown their shikai or bankai ability, and they are in a fight, chances are they'll win. We ALL know that they have a bankai or shikai available, so it's not out of left field. It's when they show another ability that seems to be solely so they'll win, or don't have to reveal their shikai/bankai that bugs me. It just seems a little disappointing to me. A small list:

Kenpachi's Kendo
Hitsugaya's Ice Obelisk
Hachi's Portal2UrTummy
Ichigonator

All with very little forewarning that these techniques even existed. It's like: "Oh man, the suspense is building, how will this person win?! They CAN'T win! Ohmygosh! Oh wait they pulled out some random ability they just remembered they had even though they've been in near death situations before... woohoo."

Honestly, Ichigo's was pretty much the only one from no where. We already knew Hitsu could control weather and the moisture in the area. Hachi did pretty much the same attack on the menos except he decapitated them with it instead of putting one around his messed up and and putting it inside of Barragan. Kenpachi's makes perfect sense as well. Your strikes are alot stronger when yo use both hands. He was pretty much beating Nnoitra anyways.

Gran Maestro
December 11, 2009, 07:17 PM
If a character hasn't shown their shikai or bankai ability, and they are in a fight, chances are they'll win.

Not necessarily. Think about it and you'll see there're many examples that prove otherwise.


It's when they show another ability that seems to be solely so they'll win, or don't have to reveal their shikai/bankai that bugs me. It just seems a little disappointing to me. A small list:

Kenpachi's Kendo
Hitsugaya's Ice Obelisk
Hachi's Portal2UrTummy
Ichigonator

All with very little forewarning that these techniques even existed. It's like: "Oh man, the suspense is building, how will this person win?! They CAN'T win! Ohmygosh! Oh wait they pulled out some random ability they just remembered they had even though they've been in near death situations before... woohoo."

Well, Kenpachi and Hachigen had never been in near death situations. It was Hachigen's first fight and Kenpachi had been one-hit KOed against Ichigo. Tousen couldn't even force Kenpachi to take off his eyepatch, let alone kendo. Ichigonator is an uncontrollable monster and Ichigo can't summon it at will.

Let's have a look at Hitsugaya's fights:

Hitsugaya vs Aizen: It ended before Hitsugaya could figure out what was going on.

Hitsugaya vs Shawlong: Hitsugaya was fighting with a limiter and he didn't have any options.

Hitsugaya vs Luppy: Luppy managed to land a hit but Hitsugaya quickly finalized the matter in return.

So when you think about it, there had been no opportunity for a forewarning about the existence of these abilities.

Lunatic Scream
December 12, 2009, 01:48 AM
Honestly, Ichigo's was pretty much the only one from no where. We already knew Hitsu could control weather and the moisture in the area. Hachi did pretty much the same attack on the menos except he decapitated them with it instead of putting one around his messed up and and putting it inside of Barragan. Kenpachi's makes perfect sense as well. Your strikes are alot stronger when yo use both hands. He was pretty much beating Nnoitra anyways.

And what I am saying is, where were these before? Kenpachi lost to Ichigo. Had he used his miraculous Kendo, Ichigo would be dead. Plus... does Kendo apply to other characters? Any sword user should be twice as strong using it by the way it seems to work.

Hachi... let's be serious. He has the power to warp things INTO people's body. He could defeat ANYONE with that. I guarantee he will never use it to such success again. What is stopping him from teleporting a sword inside Aizen, Tousen, or Gin?

Hitsugaya, yes, he has been implied to have been training. I concede that MAYBE the Obelisk attack is okay. Maybe. Then there's still the issue of his miraculous Ice Mirror though, which he had plenty of oppurtunities to use. He took a ton of heavy hits prior to his Halibel fight where that would have come in handy. And I mean it even came with the "I can only do this once" stipulation of any good wallbanger.

I know you didn't disagree specifically, but about Ichigonator... he had a few chapters DEDICATED to controlling his inner hollow roughly... what, a week or two before the current events? I know Kubo's pacing has made it (literal) years, but he had absolutely no problems containing his Hollow all throughout Hueco Mundo. Then suddenly his hollow is a godly force who's only foreshadowing was Hollow Ichigo saying "Ah'll beh bach", which is tenuous at best, because Ichigonator shows absolutely no similarity to Hollow Ichigo.

Snake_Cowboy
December 12, 2009, 03:16 AM
I'm probably not going to participate much in this debate, but just want to point out a few things:

- Kendo: Nearly every Shinigami with decent combat ability already uses kendo - except Kenpachi. No one slashes as randomly with his sword as he does - even Ichigo who has had barely any training fights much better than him in that regard. The fact is that, by using his sword one-handed, Kenpachi has been holding back a part of his strength. So I don't think the Kendo-power-up is such bullshit as so many people seem to think.

- Hachi's teleportation trick: the reason that trick probably doesn't work on anyone except Barragan, was because, y'know... Most people are kind of solid. Barragan was a freaking empty skeleton, with plenty of empty space in there. I imagine the huge amount of reiatsu emanating from Aizen's body, even the insides, prevents Hachi from doing stuff like that.

Gran Maestro
December 12, 2009, 05:59 AM
Kenpachi lost to Ichigo. Had he used his miraculous Kendo, Ichigo would be dead. Plus... does Kendo apply to other characters? Any sword user should be twice as strong using it by the way it seems to work.

As we know, Kenpachi refrains from using kendo unless he has no other choice. Kenpachi was not trying to kill Ichigo, he was trying to have fun. This is why he is wearing an eyepatch that limits his strength, this is his character. Kendo applies to any character but others usually rely on their zanpakuto & kido abilities.


Hachi... let's be serious. He has the power to warp things INTO people's body. He could defeat ANYONE with that. I guarantee he will never use it to such success again. What is stopping him from teleporting a sword inside Aizen, Tousen, or Gin?

Hachigen will never use it to such success because he'll never fight a skeleton again. Other people are solid objects and I don't think this technique works on them.


Hitsugaya, yes, he has been implied to have been training. I concede that MAYBE the Obelisk attack is okay. Maybe. Then there's still the issue of his miraculous Ice Mirror though, which he had plenty of oppurtunities to use. He took a ton of heavy hits prior to his Halibel fight where that would have come in handy. And I mean it even came with the "I can only do this once" stipulation of any good wallbanger.

Well, most of the hits were against Shawlong and we don't know whether this technique is possible with 20% reiatsu. Yes, it came out of nowhere but it has nothing to do with Harribel's defeat.


I know you didn't disagree specifically, but about Ichigonator... he had a few chapters DEDICATED to controlling his inner hollow roughly... what, a week or two before the current events? I know Kubo's pacing has made it (literal) years, but he had absolutely no problems containing his Hollow all throughout Hueco Mundo. Then suddenly his hollow is a godly force who's only foreshadowing was Hollow Ichigo saying "Ah'll beh bach", which is tenuous at best, because Ichigonator shows absolutely no similarity to Hollow Ichigo.

This is Ichigo's manga, he is the main protagonist. Nothing Ichigo does can surprise me. The new chapter reveals some new info about the nature of this form, so the lack of similarity is not totally unexpected. It was already known that his hollow would take control under extreme circumstances and it was exactly extreme circumstances.


And what I am saying is, where were these before?

Kubo can't reveal all the abilities of every character in their first fights, it kills suspense.

Trotter
December 12, 2009, 10:07 AM
Hacchi had to sacrifice his arm, the medium for his rejection powers, in order to defeat Barragan. He can't run around doing that to anyone because he apparently loses limbs when he does that.

revennge
December 12, 2009, 10:19 AM
Well i was thinking if Ichigonator is really a ressurection then maybe we will get to know Shirosakis true name? Dunno thougth why but maybe i think like that because of grimmjow's ressurection.

Zatono
December 12, 2009, 10:44 AM
Well i was thinking if Ichigonator is really a ressurection then maybe we will get to know Shirosakis true name? Dunno thougth why but maybe i think like that because of grimmjow's ressurection.

I'm guessing you're right. We probably will know Shirosaki's name, at some point. The question, however, is when Ichigo is going to get to use this ressurection. We've seen Segunda Etapa, which is a chance for a power up for any arrancar still alive, and now we've got a Resureccion for Vaizards, which, hopefully, only perfect Hybrids have. I'm guessing perfect Hybrids can only be made by the Hougyoku, and plotkai (Urahara making Ichigo into one).

Arrogance
December 12, 2009, 01:03 PM
I dunno if anyone else has seen this but there is footage on the internet of some combat between Segunda Etapa Ulqiorra and Ichigonator for the upcoming anime episodes after the Zanpaktou Uprising Arc is done. I have to admit it looks f*cking epic!!!! :wtf If anyone feels like being spoiled a bit I have the link posted below. Enjoy :D

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i9PXEcNGumw&feature=related

PS: I just noticed that someone made a discussion thread for this so here is the link to that if anyone is interested. http://mangahelpers.com/forums/showthread.php?p=1711089#post1711089

R4zr
December 13, 2009, 07:16 PM
I was re-reading the old chapters on One Manga and i noticed they did a pretty f****d up job with the kanjis...

11th squad captain : Tsurugihachi Saraki

Urahara'zan : Kurenaihime

Ichi's zan : Kitsuki

And so on. Lol i think they sould fix this it's utterly ridicolous.

leoliox
December 14, 2009, 03:40 AM
I was re-reading the old chapters on One Manga and i noticed they did a pretty f****d up job with the kanjis...

11th squad captain : Tsurugihachi Saraki

Urahara'zan : Kurenaihime

Ichi's zan : Kitsuki

And so on. Lol i think they sould fix this it's utterly ridicolous.

That's cause kanjis can be read in different ways.

benelori
December 14, 2009, 08:15 AM
I dunno if anyone else has seen this but there is footage on the internet of some combat between Segunda Etapa Ulqiorra and Ichigonator for the upcoming anime episodes after the Zanpaktou Uprising Arc is done. I have to admit it looks f*cking epic!!!! :wtf If anyone feels like being spoiled a bit I have the link posted below. Enjoy :D

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i9PXEcNGumw&feature=related

PS: I just noticed that someone made a discussion thread for this so here is the link to that if anyone is interested. http://mangahelpers.com/forums/showthread.php?p=1711089#post1711089

That was awesome...it could definitely become a bleach episode...nice job for the animator...also long time no see...been away?

Arrogance
December 14, 2009, 11:58 AM
That was awesome...it could definitely become a bleach episode...nice job for the animator...also long time no see...been away?
lol, apparently it was a clip that was from the most recent Bleach PSP game, so I'm pretty sure its already going to be an episode :XD. Its the actual thing, lol.

Darth Executor
December 15, 2009, 04:22 PM
I think that this arc will conclude with another asspull, with the revelation that this was all a diversion, that Aizen has the real vasto lordes in stock

I think Aizen is gonna die this arc. I hope to God he dies this arc.



You may as well get pissed now, because there is no way that will happen. And ww being a vasto lorde? Well the exact same thing was said about Ulquiorra for the last 2 years.

Someone did a comparison between the vasto lorde silhouette and wonderweiss/ulquiorra and it looked more like wonderweiss than ulquiorra. Kishi probably made it look similar to both because he loves trolling. Anyway, I don't care what anyone says. WW is a vasto lorde and he'll prove it. :p I mean, he one shotted one of the strongest captains around, and now he's fighting a visored captain in bankai barehanded. that's gotta count for something. even ulquiorra wasn't that badass.

Mangakotlar
December 15, 2009, 04:31 PM
Someone did a comparison between the vasto lorde silhouette and wonderweiss/ulquiorra and it looked more like wonderweiss than ulquiorra. Kishi probably made it look similar to both because he loves trolling. Anyway, I don't care what anyone says. WW is a vasto lorde and he'll prove it. :p I mean, he one shotted one of the strongest captains around, and now he's fighting a visored captain in bankai barehanded. that's gotta count for something. even ulquiorra wasn't that badass.

Well, assuming mods don't pull this:

http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/197/16/
http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/197/19/

[ridges on the side of the mask, etc. and the fact that the hole doesn't exactly line up isn't important. it is only important to note that both are human sized, human shaped, and this indicates that ulquiorra was a vasto lorde. by using a silhouette, Kishi has a way out, if his pot ended up developing in such a way that Ulquiorra and the other espada needed to lose to the captains. the silhouette leads to endless speculation, so he's somewhat justified. but really it is an asspull, since he all but plainly stated the fact. this is commonly done in cheap stories, where facts later revealed don't match up with earlier explanations.]

But given standard Manga accuracy, it's clearly the same guy. And it would make no sense for Kishi to give us this Arrancar explanation, which was clearly meant to hype up both Yammi and Ulquiorra (notice previous chapter, Yourichi says, "they are far stronger than we ever predicted", and the fact that Ulquiorra remarks that Ichigo's spiritual pressure at its max is even above his, and we know Ichigo's spiritual pressure potential is higher than any captain), as well as the undisclosed Arrancar, and then say, welllll that expalanation I gave to you at the beginning is actually about wonderweiss and above, a character that has had 2 panels of screen time. It was meant to hype the antagonists that had just arrived, just like was done at the beginning of the soul society arc. Wouldn't you have felt duped if there was all this talk about the strength of captains, and then say, Ishida went and killed one? Oh wait, that did happen... It is quite obvious that Kishi simply does not plan his story concretely. There are more loose ends than when Hellen Keller's ties her shoes.

Also, the only real distinguishing factor is that vasto lordes are the size & shape (roughly) of humans. While Yammi clearly doesn't fit that profile, ulquiorra obviously does.

edit: cool, i'll look for it there. this is getting removed in 3,2,1./

bloomtender
December 15, 2009, 04:39 PM
ok sorry guys im a little behind at this topic but what exactly is the diference between an espada and a vasto lorde ?

Darth Executor
December 15, 2009, 04:49 PM
Well, assuming mods don't pull this:

http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/197/16/
http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/197/19/

It's clearly the same guy.

It's very similar, but not the same. It has 2 visible ridges on the side of its head, while ulquiorra has 3. Ulquiorra has no visible "bumps" in his uniform while wonderweiss does.Also, ulqu's horns are shaped differently. If it's supposed to show his original hollow form, then it's almost certainly not him because his released form has wings. As i said, I think kubo's trolling by making it look very similar to Ulq but it's not ulq.

Darth Executor
December 15, 2009, 04:50 PM
ok sorry guys im a little behind at this topic but what exactly is the diference between an espada and a vasto lorde ?

Espada = high ranking arrancar (hollow who broke their mask and took shinigami powers as a result).

Vasto lorde = strongest type of hollow.

Someone can be both an espada and a vasto lorde.

Mangakotlar
December 15, 2009, 04:57 PM
It's very similar, but not the same. It has 2 visible ridges on the side of its head, while ulquiorra has 3. Ulquiorra has no visible "bumps" in his uniform while wonderweiss does.Also, ulqu's horns are shaped differently. If it's supposed to show his original hollow form, then it's almost certainly not him because his released form has wings. As i said, I think kishi's trolling by making it look very similar to Ulq but it's not ulq.

I think he didn't have ulquiorras resurrecion finalized 3 years in advanced. It is trolling, but doesn't change the fact that his obvious intention was for the reader to believe ulquiorra and possibly others were of that class. The fact that it turned out otherwise shows a failure of planning and writing ability. This is why so many are dissapointed by this arc. For 3 years kishi hyped and then completely reversed on our expectations. But he didn't do it in a meaningul way. He basically did an asspull and tricked his audience. Whether that was his decision, or the intention of his editor based on some market projections is of course unknown.

gotdott
December 15, 2009, 05:14 PM
I think he didn't have ulquiorras resurrecion finalized 3 years in advanced. It is trolling, but doesn't change the fact that his obvious intention was for the reader to believe ulquiorra and possibly others were of that class. The fact that it turned out otherwise shows a failure of planning and writing ability. This is why so many are dissapointed by this arc. For 3 years kishi hyped and then completely reversed on our expectations. But he didn't do it in a meaningul way. He basically did an asspull and tricked his audience. Whether that was his decision, or the intention of his editor based on some market projections is of course unknown.

I gave up on this arc when i saw this: http://media.onemanga.com/mangas/00000003/000154532/19.jpg

Because I remembered this:
http://media.onemanga.com/mangas/00000132/00000151/04.jpg

Darth Executor
December 15, 2009, 05:18 PM
I think he didn't have ulquiorras resurrecion finalized 3 years in advanced. It is trolling, but doesn't change the fact that his obvious intention was for the reader to believe ulquiorra and possibly others were of that class.

Oh no doubt I agree that he intended to get people to think it was Ulq. That's why I said it's trolling, he purposefully gave the wrong impression.


The fact that it turned out otherwise shows a failure of planning and writing ability. This is why so many are dissapointed by this arc. For 3 years kishi hyped and then completely reversed on our expectations. But he didn't do it in a meaningul way. He basically did an asspull and tricked his audience. Whether that was his decision, or the intention of his editor based on some market projections is of course unknown.

I don't think it was a failure of planning (writing ability is arguable, "elite storywriter" doesn't exactly have his picture next to it in the dictionary). I think it was intentional. Kubo keeps Bleach interesting by pulling ridiculous twists and getting readers to wonder what magnificent stupidity he'll come up with next.

conn-man
December 15, 2009, 05:19 PM
The fact that it turned out otherwise shows a failure of planning and writing ability. But he didn't do it in a meaningul way. He basically did an asspull and tricked his audience. Whether that was his decision, or the intention of his editor based on some market projections is of course unknown.

yeah the whole vasto hyping with uliquiorra and the infamous silouette didnt work out so well but im not to mad about it. really its just one little thing and kubo has done a really good job forshadowing other things like ichigos development as a hybrid, the vizards, and most everything about aizen.

so he jumped the vastro lorde gun so to speak with ulquiorra, thats not so bad. he just realized later on that the he wanted the vastro to be even stronger than ulqi was made out to be because the range of power for all the characters had more potential than originally thought.

SmellsLikeTeenSh!t
December 15, 2009, 05:22 PM
Espada = high ranking arrancar (hollow who broke their mask and took shinigami powers as a result).

Vasto lorde = strongest type of hollow.

Someone can be both an espada and a vasto lorde.

Dude u got something wrong here

First of all Espada is the name Aizen gave them, like Gotei 13 in Soul Societey for all Captains

Second, the hollows we saw in Hueco Mundo are ALL Menos, they devide in Gillian(weak and big), Adjuchas (smaller and much stronger) and finally Vasto Lordes (human size and extremly powerfull + rare)

Darth Executor
December 15, 2009, 05:29 PM
Dude u got something wrong here

First of all Espada is the name Aizen gave them, like Gotei 13 in Soul Societey for all Captains

Actually I think espada existed before aizen, but that's irrelevant because espada is the highest rank a hollow can get. That it's a rank given by aizen is not really relevant. The espada are supposed to be the highest ranking (and strongest) arrancar. It is indeed like "captain" because captain is also a rank.


Second, the hollows we saw in Hueco Mundo are ALL Menos, they devide in Gillian(weak and big), Adjuchas (smaller and much stronger) and finally Vasto Lordes (human size and extremly powerfull + rare)

I know they're menos. How is it that what I said contradicts that? Menos are hollows. Vasto lordes are the strongest menos. Therefore vasto lordes are the strongest hollows.

SmellsLikeTeenSh!t
December 15, 2009, 05:43 PM
Actually I think espada existed before aizen, but that's irrelevant because espada is the highest rank a hollow can get. That it's a rank given by aizen is not really relevant. The espada are supposed to be the highest ranking (and strongest) arrancar. It is indeed like "captain" because captain is also a rank.


No the Espada as we know them didn't exist before, they were all allone, like Starrk and Barragan and the word "Espada" is not a measure for the power of a Hollow/Menos...there are the previous Espada who got kicked out and they are as weak as sh*t.

Vasto Lordes are stronger as the former Espada, too.

By the way WW is not part of the Espada yet he seems to be stronger then all of them. And Captains can get a promotion to Royal Guard. Any questions left?

kkck
December 15, 2009, 06:00 PM
i think it can be assumed based off of the way soul society is handling all the violence between members, captain especially. its obvious they have had a 'only the strong survive' mentality probably since before yamamoto started the academy.

and for some reason i dont see the central 46 comming back anytime soon, they were 46 old assholes that prbably didnt have anyone waiting in line to take their place.

and aizen never looked good, but he at least seemed less evil at one point, like a good guy taking drastic measures for the greater good, but now hes just getting darker and more evil as the plot carries on.

How has SS handled violence between members? I don't remember seeing any of that in the manga lol.

But they are coming back.
http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/197/13/
We have no reason to believe a bunch of new ones won't be chosen. Your opinion might turn into a lucky guess though.

HHhhmmmm, true... less evil.....
http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/169/16/
http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/170/11/
http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/170/22/
http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/170/23/
http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/173/07/
http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/174/15/
http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/176/11/
http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/213/17/
http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/314/01/
http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/315.1/013/
http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/315.1/014/
http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/315.1/016/
http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/375/21/
http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/376/06-07/
http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/377/09/

I don't think there is nothing less evil about aizen lol. I doubt he will pull an itachi. I at do not see anything about him which would suggest he is not as much as an asshole as he seems to be.

Random101
December 15, 2009, 07:41 PM
YuYu Hakkusho as I recall (Mostly because I remember the Urameshi from the abridged version). You know, the series Bleach has pretty much taken the cliff notes from since the start (though lately it's become a blend of that and DBZ)? It's pretty much the exact same scene in all honesty presentation wise.

Mangakotlar
December 15, 2009, 07:48 PM
I think Aizen is gonna die this arc. I hope to God he dies this arc.



Someone did a comparison between the vasto lorde silhouette and wonderweiss/ulquiorra and it looked more like wonderweiss than ulquiorra. Kishi probably made it look similar to both because he loves trolling. Anyway, I don't care what anyone says. WW is a vasto lorde and he'll prove it. :p I mean, he one shotted one of the strongest captains around, and now he's fighting a visored captain in bankai barehanded. that's gotta count for something. even ulquiorra wasn't that badass.

Well ulquiorra fought Urahara, who probably whoops Kensei with his farts, alongside youruchi, and didn't even move any body part other than his hand. He took Urahara's shikai attack, probably not his strongest version though, with his hand and sliced it in half. I'm sorry Ulquiorra was such an awesome character, its too bad hes been replaced with the Down child.

Shola
December 15, 2009, 07:55 PM
Well, so far that i know, words ESPADA is created by Aizen itself represent "10 Swords". But Arrancar is already existed before Aizen come to them like where he ask Starrk and Barragan to join their groups.

I don't know what happened next chapter, but i guess Tousen will berserk...... Actually, i really wanted to see Shinji zan ability....it's very interesting.

Espada is just a name for a high ranking arrancar, as you said.

None of them were vasto lord

Poke Her Face
December 15, 2009, 08:01 PM
After going through Aizen's evil montage, I flicked through to the next few panels and noticed this: http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/213/19/

"Once we ready the vastorodes and complete the Espada."

So judging by that comment, is it me or does Aizen already have his vastos ready? Or at least partially ready. Since he was surprised that the Espada got their asses handed so quickly.. I'm going on a whim and say that he didn't have his second wave (Vasto's) ready. Even though it's a speculation, perhaps he was hoping that the Espada would do away with the Captains or kill each other off, get the key, and take his real force to the King's Realm. Seeing that the Espada are all dead, and Gin is MIA, what if Gin is going to destroy the rest of the pillars?

Mangakotlar
December 15, 2009, 08:04 PM
After going through Aizen's evil montage, I flicked through to the next few panels and noticed this: http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/213/19/

"Once we ready the vastorodes and complete the Espada."

So judging by that comment, is it me or does Aizen already have his vastos ready? Or at least partially ready. Since he was surprised that the Espada got their asses handed so quickly.. I'm going on a whim and say that he didn't have his second wave (Vasto's) ready. Even though it's a speculation, perhaps he was hoping that the Espada would do away with the Captains or kill each other off, get the key, and take his real force to the King's Realm. Seeing that the Espada are all dead, and Gin is MIA, what if Gin is going to destroy the rest of the pillars?

Ah I forgot that. Yeah that definitely sounds like he didn't have them. Kishi is soooo vague damn. Not in a cool interesting way.

vizardichigo
December 15, 2009, 08:05 PM
I don't know what to think about the VL's anymore. I used to think 1-4 were VL but i dont know anymore.

Shola
December 15, 2009, 08:06 PM
That's not clear. Possible, and it seems like they're getting phased out, but its not certain at all. Kishi certainly hasn't stated it, and I'd be willing to bet that the top 4 were.

http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/213/19/

conn-man
December 16, 2009, 11:29 AM
How has SS handled violence between members? I don't remember seeing any of that in the manga lol.

But they are coming back.
http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/197/13/
We have no reason to believe a bunch of new ones won't be chosen. Your opinion might turn into a lucky guess though.


I don't think there is nothing less evil about aizen lol. I doubt he will pull an itachi. I at do not see anything about him which would suggest he is not as much as an asshole as he seems to be.

easy killer, you got me, really hammered it in with all those links. but really dont confuse this with me saying aizen is good or gonna pull a switch or soemthing stupid like that. i was also saying that he shouldnt be seen as good at all anymore, based on all the things he has continued to do, making him more and more evil.

as far as the central 46 being replaced, thanks for the link to that page, that theory has been solved for me.

Lunatic Scream
December 16, 2009, 07:18 PM
Winter War Update!
Soul Society/Vaizard/Substitute Shinigami Casualties:
Soifon's arm
Hachi's hand
Hiyori's lower half
Ichigo's dignity
(They'll be back, don't worry!)

Hueco Mundo Casualties:
Di Roy
Yldfordt Grantz
Nakeem Greendina
Edrad Leones
Shawlong Kufang
Luppi
Iceringer
Demora
Lumina
Verona
Medazeppi
Tesla (?)
Sun-sun
Mila Rose
Apache
Choe Neng Poww
Nirgge Parduoc
Findor Carias
Avirama Reder
Ggio Vega
Charlotte Coolhorn
Loly
Menoly
Cirucci Thunderwitch
Dordonii Alej... "nino" guy
Fuma
Espada 9 Aaroneiro Arrurerie
Espada 8 Syazel Apollo Grantz
Espada 7 Zommari Leroux
Espada 5 Nnoitra Jiruga
Espada 4 Ulquiorra Schiffer
Espada 3 Tia Hallibel
Espada 2 Barragan Luisenbard
Espada 1 Coyote Starrk
Lilynette Gingerback

...THIS IS WAAAAAR. EVERYONE IS IN THE WRONG BECAUSE IT'S SO GRUESOME AND PAINFUL TO BOTH SIDES D:

kkck
December 16, 2009, 11:34 PM
I noticed you did not include grimmjow in your list. Do you think he is alive? I think he is at the moment. Starrk and harribel also have a chance in hell of being alive. Harribel was simply one shotted to easily and I find it hard to believe kubo would kill lilinet so easily.

Nmaster
December 17, 2009, 10:30 AM
If grimmjow was alive what role in the story he can play, soul socity won't exept his help in FKT, or in the fight with yammi

kkck
December 17, 2009, 10:46 AM
grimmjow is a hybrid so the vizards might accept him along with any other. Even their situations would not be that different, both would have been manipulated and placed aside by aizen. I don't think grimjow will have another role in this arc but odds are he can easily play another one in the next.

Nmaster
December 17, 2009, 10:49 AM
that made me thinking what grimmjow will think now seeing tousen got his ass handed to him, he would be angry to got his arm cut by this fly thingee.

conn-man
December 17, 2009, 10:59 AM
grimmjow and nel dont have to be accepted anywhere, hueco mundo is a big place, they can just stay there.

and grimm is definitly gonna play a part in another arc, hes plenty strong to fight decently in the future, hes stronger than any vice captain probably including vizard VCs.

Lunatic Scream
December 17, 2009, 11:21 AM
I noticed you did not include grimmjow in your list. Do you think he is alive? I think he is at the moment. Starrk and harribel also have a chance in hell of being alive. Harribel was simply one shotted to easily and I find it hard to believe kubo would kill lilinet so easily.

I think Grimmjow is alive because Ichigo went out of his way to protect him. Though the fact that he hasn't been shown since is odd. Isn't Ichigo the least bit curious as to here he went?

As for Starrk and Hallibel... well I hope Starrk is alive, but we've seen how antagonists are treated, so I doubt it.

gohosku
December 17, 2009, 02:36 PM
This entire winter showdown is a letdown if you ask me and I have been waiting and Waiting and WAITING for Aizens squad to make some kind of hail merry play that will make me think "ya Ichigo needs to get his ass back to the real world" but it hasn't happened. Once Aizen decided they were gunna get into the fight then Gin cut Hiyori in half I was like "Holly hell its finally happening!" but no... they couldnt even kill off komamura/Hisagi? Character's who's sole purpose in this manga as far as I could tell were their relationship with Tousen. Hisagi was stabbed in the chest and thrown off the building by a hollow captain and was still able to come back and finish the fight? The fake spoilers about kensei joinin in and finishing off Tousen seemed much more fitting if you ask me sense they had a relationship as well.

But honestly thats all besides my point. I could really care less about tousen, komamura and hisagi. My real problem is that there were 16 enemys (including wonderweiss and his giant blob thing) now there are 2 and not a single shinigami has died. Kubo has built this "final" battle with Aizen (at this point I'm sure it will not be the final battle) so much that I guess I was expecting more.

I always thought that Kubo made so many characters so that when this showdown took place there would be this epic battle. there are 10 captains, 13vice captains, ichigo and his team, urahara and his team, ichigo's father and uryuu's father, PLUS a crap load of vizards. Hell I'm probably forgetting someone too. Yet kubo cant do it.

Sure the Shinigami have been beat to hell but that doesn't make tension in the story at all. I guess what I'm saying is Tousens death (being 1 of the original 3 antagonists) made me realize I need to stop waiting for suspense because this manga just isn't going to add any of that.

DARK
December 17, 2009, 07:56 PM
grimmjow is a hybrid so the vizards might accept him along with any other. Even their situations would not be that different, both would have been manipulated and placed aside by aizen. I don't think grimjow will have another role in this arc but odds are he can easily play another one in the next.

Grimmjow associates himself as a "Hollow" and he has some sort of grudge on Shinji. I honestly can't see him being present in the real world at all. He's just too feral to even be considered a "main character" in the future.
Kubo will probably make this half-dead "Vegeta wannabee" suffer in Hueco Mundo if he plans to integrate him back into the current storyline. I can't wait to see the expression on Grimmjow's face after realizing that Ulquiorra was killed by Ichigo, and has nowhere to go (because nobody gives a crap about him).

kkck
December 17, 2009, 09:30 PM
Grimmjow associates himself as a "Hollow" and he has some sort of grudge on Shinji. I honestly can't see him being present in the real world at all. He's just too feral to even be considered a "main character" in the future.
Kubo will probably make this half-dead "Vegeta wannabee" suffer in Hueco Mundo if he plans to integrate him back into the current storyline. I can't wait to see the expression on Grimmjow's face after realizing that Ulquiorra was killed by Ichigo, and has nowhere to go (because nobody gives a crap about him).

Grimmjow is as much as a hollow as shinji is a shinigami or anyone posting here a chimp(literally, not metaphorically). Shiniji did kick his ass but I have my doubts about him having a grudge. I think his obsession was only with ichigo. I do think if cornered he'll do what needs to be done and by now it is self evident he has no future with aizen. I do agree in that he needs a few changes for him to be integrated as an antihero primary and a half character though. He also needs a power up. I do hope that if he is alive he isn't just killed on sight by aizen though.

White Silver King
December 18, 2009, 12:12 PM
I find it hard to believe kubo would kill lilinet so easily.

Starrk is Lilinette and vice versa so if one of them dies so does the other.