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WinterLion
October 26, 2006, 02:32 PM
For all your Bleach 249 goodies, click here (http://mangahelpers.com/forum/index.php?topic=10265.0)._________________________________________________

Now the chapter's out... and we know Orihime hasn't competely surrendered to Aizen. And so to start you guys off...
Who will each of the 5 meet now?
Will Neru catch up to Ichigo?
Who is this Noitre that Ulq was talking to?
Will Orihime be able to erase the Hougyoku out of existance?

Predict away, but remember, no spam please. ;)

flowless
October 26, 2006, 04:27 PM
=> Who will each of the 5 meet now?
I seriously don't think any of Ichigo's team mates will actually be able to fight an Espada. Something will give them a strategic advantage. Either that or they are saved by someone (rukia possible by her bro and chad/renji by the crazy ex-captain).

=>Will Neru catch up to Ichigo?
I'm sure Neru hides a great power. Which would explain why he hasn't died yet, and why he looks like an Arrancar.

=>Who is this Noitre that Ulq was talking to?
Seems like a low level Espada.

Will Orihime be able to erase the Hougyoku out of existance?
=>
As rukia girl (sorry forgot the name) posted on the other topic, I believe this IS what Aizen is aiming for. It could be that making the Hogiko dissapear is beyond her power or it has always existed or whatever.
[br]Posted on: October 26, 2006, 05:26:13 PM_________________________________________________Also, it could be that the espada that will first meet with Ichigo will be killed by Grimmjow himself (so he can fight him)

Urazz
October 26, 2006, 05:53 PM
Does anyone think that Aizen purposefully showed the Hougyoku to Orihime and knows that she is having thoughts to destroy it? It would only make sense really and it would also give another reason to letting Orihime say goodbye to one person.

I'm thinking that Aizen is going to have Ichigo captured and used as a hostage to blackmail Orihime into going along with his plan. That seems like a pretty straight forward plan in which not much can't go wrong at first glance but with the addition of Rukia and Renji without knowledge and the hollow brothers things can go in another direction.

Fyna
October 26, 2006, 08:20 PM
=>Who is this Noitre that Ulq was talking to?
Seems like a low level Espada.


If the seating chart in chapter 244 is in the order of numbers 5 - 1 on the left side and 10 - 6 on the right side, then Noitora would be number 3. Which, yes, he is a lower level Espada compared to Ulq, however, compared to much of the other Espada, he is a high number. Though, as I stated before, this is only IF the seating chart was in that set-up. I'm hoping that the revelation of the nubered Espada will soon appear in the coming chapters.

As for what I think may happen in the chapter 250, no idea. I mean, I think we will get to see who's behind Ichigo, whom I think is Nell, and we may get to see if any of the others ran into someone. But, there's always the possiblity that Kubo may take it back to Earth or Soul Society for a bit too. I'm not sure.

computemaster17
October 26, 2006, 10:10 PM
Hi it just occured to me something, if Orihime is thinking that she can erase the powerful hougyoku from existence does that mean she can return an arrancar to its previous state? Maybe thats what Hachi(vizard) meant about her power. She may help Ichigo laaaaaaaaaater on with this. Also, it would be interesting to know if this can work on Aizen if at all possible

bax
October 27, 2006, 02:42 AM
My early prediction:

In the next chapter, we will see who are the five's opponents. While Neru will encounter maybe minor Hollows on her way to Ichigo. And perhaps few glimpses on SS and Urahara's side. It's been too long since they showed up.

And perhaps, Tousen and Gin discussing with Aizen about Inoue and the intruders. Perhaps Aizen already knew what is Inoue's motive in joining his ranks. A calm and calculated character like him shouldn't miss this *misfortune*.

mugen
October 27, 2006, 10:10 AM
the person we saw behind Ichigo at the end of the chapter was Hanatarou's replacement for this arc
nell

EvolutionIX
October 27, 2006, 10:13 AM
I agree with flowless how Aizen purposely showed Orihime the hyogyoku and its hidden place so that Aizen can find out if he should trust her or not. Maybe Aizen created something that looks like it and waiting for Orihime to destroy it? :s

sharinganLS
October 27, 2006, 02:17 PM
Or maybe he can freeze her while shes abt to destroy it. Anyways i predict Ichigo facing a new not before seen arrancar (im guessing somebody from the espada)

Dark Zeza
October 28, 2006, 03:56 AM
I think next chapter they will start fighting with the lower 5 of espada ( I thought they will fight in the previous chapter). And I dont think Orihime will be able to destroy the Hougyoku because Aizen is sly and purposely show it to her.

By the way is nell a boy or a girl?

Urazz
October 29, 2006, 06:40 AM
By the way is nell a boy or a girl?

That's up in the air from what I've seen so far. It differs from translation to translation from the various translations and scanslations i've read.

bax
October 29, 2006, 07:37 AM
And I dont think Orihime will be able to destroy the Hougyoku because Aizen is sly and purposely show it to her.


Perhaps we'll see about it in the next chapter. Yeah, I don't think Aizen showed Inoue the Hougyoku for no reason. Perhaps for a plot twist, Aizen may have planned that Inoue will do something to the Hougyouku *speculation*



By the way is nell a boy or a girl?


Nell is a girl. It has been comfirmed. Asked Winny (WinterLion) about it.

Dark Zeza
October 29, 2006, 08:42 AM
Huh, and I always think that Nell is a he. :darn

For Aizen playing with Orihime is just like a game right? So whatever she does wont effect his final goal I think.

WinterLion
October 29, 2006, 02:13 PM
Nell is a girl. It has been comfirmed. Asked Winny (WinterLion) about it.

Actually, the matter has been thoroughly confused by Kubo now... I'll keep this short and just give facts. If you want to discuss this further, please start a new thread for it.
Fact 1: When Neru first appeared, Ichigo referred to the siblings as: 兄妹 meaning, "Big brother, Little sister." He referred to them as this twice.
Fact 2: Then in chap 247, during the comedy portion of the 3 trying to introduce themselves in unison, Dondochakka referred to themselves as 三兄弟 meaning "Three, Big brother, Little brother"

Now back ontopic:


For Aizen playing with Orihime is just like a game right? So whatever she does wont effect his final goal I think.

Ulq said to Noitre that to Aizen this was just a game. Whether or not they got Orihime on their side didn't really matter to him. So yes, I think Aizen is toying with Orihime, but he has some purpose behind it. I don't think we'll learn exactly what that is until much later.

As for next chap predictions. I'm hoping that each of the 5 meet with one of the Espada's and that we'll get to some good fights the next chap. I think the foot behind Ichigo is Grimmy. At least I hope it is. As for Neru, she's probably going to run into one of Aizen's arrancars (soon if not in the next chap) and we'll get to see some of her powers. And finally for Orihime, this goes beyond the next chap prediction, but in the end she will be the one to destroy the Hougyoku. It just won't go the way she's planning.

shinji2k
October 29, 2006, 02:17 PM
I doubt the person in the shadows is nell. The clothes just don't match up. The bottom hem of nell's clothes looks pretty level to me, unlike the shadow person. It could be just from the angle tho. Here's what I was talking about:
http://img67.imageshack.us/img67/9832/nellpz5.png (http://imageshack.us)

Dark Zeza
October 29, 2006, 03:28 PM
Actually, the matter has been thoroughly confused by Kubo now... I'll keep this short and just give facts. If you want to discuss this further, please start a new thread for it.
Fact 1: When Neru first appeared, Ichigo referred to the siblings as: 兄妹 meaning, "Big brother, Little sister." He referred to them as this twice.
Fact 2: Then in chap 247, during the comedy portion of the 3 trying to introduce themselves in unison, Dondochakka referred to themselves as 三兄弟 meaning "Three, Big brother, Little brother"


Uh, I didnt think it will be this complicate so I asked, then I can refer Nell in the correct way. Anyway thanks for clearing this things up for me. :tem So I will call Nell a she since Kubo refered for this twice. :darn

Uh, and let me guess, I dont think the shadow of the last page is nell. If it is nell then I think she would have shout to Ichigo already. Too many choices to choose so... maybe Grimm.

chocohexe
October 29, 2006, 05:54 PM
I think Aizen captured Orihime, because he wants Ichigo. I dont no if he new that Ichigo is a Hollow to but in the fact, Aizen want such a power. So Ichigo is the only shinigami and a hollow, and the Houy...(the name is too hard to write :darn) can change a shinigami in a Hollow. Anno I think you guys will understand what Iam trying to say. sorry for the bad english :p

Urazz
October 29, 2006, 06:33 PM
I think Aizen captured Orihime, because he wants Ichigo. I dont no if he new that Ichigo is a Hollow to but in the fact, Aizen want such a power. So Ichigo is the only shinigami and a hollow, and the Houy...(the name is too hard to write :darn) can change a shinigami in a Hollow. Anno I think you guys will understand what Iam trying to say. sorry for the bad english :p

Well, I don't think Aizen captured Orihime for that purpose but I do think he will be even more interested in Ichigo for the purpose of when he hybridizes himself, Tousen, and Gin with the hougyoku.

computemaster17
October 29, 2006, 07:35 PM
i think the person behind ichigo is ganju (laugh all u want but i think hes come to help plus i think ganju has a lot more he can do)

manu
October 29, 2006, 07:46 PM
Well, I don't think Aizen captured Orihime for that purpose but I do think he will be even more interested in Ichigo for the purpose of when he hybridizes himself, Tousen, and Gin with the hougyoku.

A vizard Aizen... thats a scary prediction. I don't think there is any room for Aizen to get stronger since he talks about mastering everything i forgot that if he pulled out a mask he could probably destroy all of SS without an army.

mangadictus
October 30, 2006, 03:30 AM
At last! :) Preds for the next one are...

More Explanation about Hougyoku. More Blabbing and rants. And also parts of each other's battles. I think there will be more intros about their opponents so I don't really expect that much. :XD

JusT.NarutO
October 30, 2006, 10:34 AM
I think Hougyoku can make Aizen a Arrancar, not a vizard.. Vizard have hollows inside them; Hougyoku makes a hybrid.. don´t make a new hollow inside them. Right? (I really don´t know what happens)

kamikaze
October 31, 2006, 03:13 AM
I think we will see the first fight perhabs ichigo ?
Long term prediction: I think ichigo will learn more about the hollow that he cary. I don't think that he will survive without the mask. Grimmjaw was so powerfull and strong, and there are more of his sorte.

JusT.NarutO
October 31, 2006, 11:25 AM
Ah, another thing.
When Grimmjaww Jaguarjack fighted Ichigo with hollow mask.. and then the ichigo´s friend (I forgot his name).. he didin´t release the zanpakutou.. right? He was about to do it, and then got stopped by Ulquiorra..
If so.. i think he is really strong.. more then we give credit to him =/

Urazz
October 31, 2006, 02:47 PM
Ah, another thing.
When Grimmjaww Jaguarjack fighted Ichigo with hollow mask.. and then the ichigo´s friend (I forgot his name).. he didin´t release the zanpakutou.. right? He was about to do it, and then got stopped by Ulquiorra..
If so.. i think he is really strong.. more then we give credit to him =/

Ichigo in just his bankai release is fast enough to challenge Grimmjow unreleased but he didn't have the strength to do any major damage so he would've ended up losing. But with his mask, Ichigo was able toss around Grimmjow like a rag doll and there was nothing Grimmjow was capable of doing to stop it by the looks of it. The only thing that stopped Ichigo from killing Grimmjow was that he couldn't keep his mask on long enough.

JusT.NarutO
October 31, 2006, 04:07 PM
Ichigo in just his bankai release is fast enough to challenge Grimmjow unreleased but he didn't have the strength to do any major damage so he would've ended up losing. But with his mask, Ichigo was able toss around Grimmjow like a rag doll and there was nothing Grimmjow was capable of doing to stop it by the looks of it. The only thing that stopped Ichigo from killing Grimmjow was that he couldn't keep his mask on long enough.

Yeah that is true ^^ What i was thinking about is if Grimmjaww can face ichigo or give him some kind of difficult chalenge when he reakeases his zanpakutou

But i think he is no match for ichigo san

I just think ichigo has more power then he showed right now.. more then he could ever control or imagine! he is the one and will show it! in the right time for sure.. and then.. when he controls his full power.. no one will beat him =)

Gooo Ichigo ^^ Most strong shini ever xD

kyubisharingan
October 31, 2006, 05:06 PM
I think the person whos foot we saw at the end was Noitora :D

erieru
November 01, 2006, 12:16 AM
I think next chapter we will get to see one of the rivals, and i have no clue who the person behind him is, but I'm sure it's not nell

malusoldier87
November 02, 2006, 11:21 AM
i think that aizen wants orihime to use her power to remove the seal completely from the hougyoku then waiting for the seal to be weaken then disspate

esdawg
November 02, 2006, 02:06 PM
Heard someone mention the recent chapters have been kind of boring. I actually like this chapter, thought it was pretty humorous. I like how Doldoni came across as a completely inept moron but then caught Ichigo off guard. The reference to Don Kanonoji earlier in the chapter is fitting with that type of character too! Though he reminds me of Ichigo's dad, disarmingly strong.

Anyone else finding it funny that Nell's Ichigo's new shoulder acessory? Must be the newest Bleach fad. :eyeroll

mangadictus
November 02, 2006, 03:45 PM
What does it take for an Espada to be demoted? I'm interested on how long will the process take and what is criteria that will determine if an Espada will be demoted or not. If it's a long process, then Dorudouni has been an Espada for sometime and got demoted when newer, stronger Espadas were awakened. It gives me the chills that there might be Arrancars stronger than the current Espada that we know.

kyubisharingan
November 02, 2006, 04:45 PM
I knew it was nell who was the shadow

mangadictus
November 02, 2006, 05:24 PM
Btw, what does “Tres Siflas” mean?

etekno
November 02, 2006, 05:51 PM
3 numbers es: 123 or 444 or 733 :-D hundreds i should say.

WinterLion
November 02, 2006, 05:56 PM
What does it take for an Espada to be demoted? I'm interested on how long will the process take and what is criteria that will determine if an Espada will be demoted or not. If it's a long process, then Dorudouni has been an Espada for sometime and got demoted when newer, stronger Espadas were awakened. It gives me the chills that there might be Arrancars stronger than the current Espada that we know.

Well, after Grimmy lost his arm, he got demoted and the No. 6 removed. So my guess is if an Espada for whatever reason becomes weaker, or a stronger Arrancar is awakened, then the old Espada is replaced and demoted. Or in the case of Luppi, can be killed off as well.



Btw, what does “Tres Siflas” mean?

I don't know Spanish, but the Japanese writing used for that was "Three digits."

mangadictus
November 02, 2006, 07:02 PM
Well, after Grimmy lost his arm, he got demoted and the No. 6 removed. So my guess is if an Espada for whatever reason becomes weaker, or a stronger Arrancar is awakened, then the old Espada is replaced and demoted. Or in the case of Luppi, can be killed off as well.

That's what I thought of too. So there must be minimum power level to become an Espada. If Aizen can awaken several Arrancars that are way higher than the limit, he might increase the minimum level and the Espada will be owning. So much for power overkill.



I don't know Spanish, but the Japanese writing used for that was "Three digits."

Thanks Okasan! So it's the Nest of the Three Digit Arrancars. :XD

WinterLion
November 02, 2006, 07:29 PM
That's what I thought of too. So there must be minimum power level to become an Espada. If Aizen can awaken several Arrancars that are way higher than the limit, he might increase the minimum level and the Espada will be owning. So much for power overkill.
From what we know of the Hougyoku (as explained by Urahara), the more it's awakened, the more the power over the arrancar created by the Hougyoku will increase. Remember when Isshin fought the Grand Fisher, and afterwards he and Urahara were talking about the how "complete" the arrancar transformation was? So I doubt there's a minimum level for the Espada, the only requirement is that they be the strongest 10 of all the arrancars.

Thanks Okasan! So it's the Nest of the Three Digit Arrancars. :XD

No prob. :amuse And yes, it would be the Nest/Lair of the Three/Triple Digit Arrancars.

Urazz
November 02, 2006, 09:50 PM
Well, after Grimmy lost his arm, he got demoted and the No. 6 removed. So my guess is if an Espada for whatever reason becomes weaker, or a stronger Arrancar is awakened, then the old Espada is replaced and demoted. Or in the case of Luppi, can be killed off as well.

I think it can also be decided by other things as well. Like if the arrancar behaves like an idiot all the time, is really incompetant, or pisses Aizen, Gin, and Tousen off enough.

Dark Zeza
November 02, 2006, 10:57 PM
Wonderweiss look just like L. :darn All my guess was wrong but they fight an espada, even though the former one.

mangadictus
November 03, 2006, 11:36 AM
So I doubt there's a minimum level for the Espada, the only requirement is that they be the strongest 10 of all the arrancars.

God! It's always a competition among the Arrancars to get to the top 10. This is gonna be very interesting.



Wonderweiss look just like L. :darn All my guess was wrong but they fight an espada, even though the former one.

Oh yeah, just like L, less the thumb ;p

Luckas
November 03, 2006, 01:42 PM
What do you think about the way Nell's eyes lit when he says "super speed" and crahses in Ichigo chest? It's only a comic relief or could it has an hidden meaning? Perhaps about the force Nell should posses being him an arrancar?

sharinganLS
November 03, 2006, 02:07 PM
What do you think about the way Nell's eyes lit when he says "super speed" and crahses in Ichigo chest? It's only a comic relief or could it has an hidden meaning? Perhaps about the force Nell should posses being him an arrancar?
I would love to see nell having an inner strong power that busts once in a while. Its hard to say if that was or wasnt a comic relief.

Athena
November 03, 2006, 02:32 PM
Can somebody tell me the Difference between "Espada" and "Vasto Lorde" please? are they the same?

sharinganLS
November 03, 2006, 03:51 PM
Espada are basically the 10 best arrancar that aizen has created.

Vasto Lorde are the strongest type of menos grande.

Musashi Gen
November 03, 2006, 04:17 PM
Are the names of the Espadas, as contrast to the Captains, released? Looking forward for a female member, I guess.

kyubisharingan
November 03, 2006, 09:31 PM
ACK all this spanish talk. I cant understand. Mendos, Espada, Nachos....WTF

erieru
November 03, 2006, 10:39 PM
I kinda liked this chapter, it's finally a little different from the SS arc, IMO. I think Nell has some power, but not a lot, his hidden powers will probably help Ichigo to develop his own hidden Hollow powers that he hasn't use yet

xi0
November 03, 2006, 10:46 PM
But Nell is an Arrancar. I'm not sure if Nell could help Ichigo in increasing his Vizored power.

mangadictus
November 04, 2006, 11:23 AM
But Nell is an Arrancar. I'm not sure if Nell could help Ichigo in increasing his Vizored power.

I believe so. Vaizards were just hybirds and Ichigo is trying to develop power that is of Arrancar in nature so who can help Ichigo develop that power better than a pure Arrancar?

lexx
November 04, 2006, 03:55 PM
This has been explained countless times, but I'll sum up...again.

The nature of hollows & death gods:

When a human soul's body dies, that soul has two options: get purified & sent to soul society, wherein it may develop death-god abilities, or slowly have its soul-chain decay up until the point it loses it's "human" heart & becomes a hollow. In essence, in terms of power, a soul has two possible paths. Think of them as two sides to the same coin:

Death God: guardian, protector, law, etc (lawful good alignment typically)
Hollow: pure instinct, destruction, consumption, hatred (chaotic evil alignment)

In terms of power, there seems to be a hard limit to the depth of the abilities of either a death god or hollow. This is a limit, the absolute potential that either being may approach but never meet or exceed. However, it would seem that this individual limit on a soul may be exceeded by breaking the line between death god & hollow:

Vizards: (lit. masked warriors) Death Gods who use forbidden techniques to gain the powers of a hollow.
Arrancar: (lit. broken masks) Hollows who use forbidden techniques to gain the powers of a death god.

In the case of Vizards, from Ichigo's conversations with his inner hollow & from things the vizards have said to him, it would seem that the process involves the birth of an "inner hollow" within the soul of the death god. In this case, the hollow persona is born, then subjugated by the soul's dominant death-god persona. Another way to express this is that the user gains a split personality & then, while suppressing that personality, uses skills or knowledge that only the 2ndary persona knows. This is really similar to multiple personality disorder: different personalities can have unique knowledge & skills the other personality is unable to access. For vizards, they spawn the secondary persona, then dominate it & silence it, and tap into its unique skill set.

In the case of Arrancar, the process is not as well understood. It can be assumed that a secondary death-god enabled personality is born within the soul of the hollow, crushed by its hollow personality, and then its abilities exploited by the hollow. However, this hasn't been stated in the manga. What IS known is that hollows can remove their masks (which are apparently shields to hide the exposed raw instinct of a hollow soul from the world) & the hollow can then access some death god abilities.

There are a few limits & caveats noticed:

It seems that the hybridization process is fraught with difficulties:

For hollows, the intelligence & level of ability of the soul affects its transformation into arrancar. Low-level hollows with non-humanoid forms don't seem to gain death god swords, but at least one such arrancar gained the ability to use the death god flash step technique. It would seem that the higher the hollow's abilities & the closer its form is to the original human form, the better chance it has of retaining a human form after the arrancar transformation, & the more likely it is to gain a death god sword & the ability to release the sword.

For death gods, it has been shown that the process of dominating the new inner hollow can be difficult. On top of that, if the hollow side wins in the inner battle between personalities, the resultant form (atleast in Ichigo's case) seems to be that of a full hollow but with soul slayer sword. It's also been shown that the hollow abilities take some effort to utilize & maintain for a Vizard. Ichigo currently can maintain his hollow mask for several seconds at the most.

Another difference in the Vizard/Arrancar hybridization process is that the resultant hybrid, in the arrancar case, needs no transformation to use its death god abilities, while the vizards need to transform (or atleast complete a hollow mask over their faces) to gain access to their hollow powers.

Anyone who has read this far will have observed that I haven't mentioned Aizen's Hougyouku (crumbling treasure) thingy. IN A NUTSHELL, I believe it's power is to irrevocably shatter the line between the death-god and hollow side of a soul. So, in the case of Arrancar, once the hougyoku is used on a hollow, the personality becomes a merging of the original hollow + the new subservient death god persona, with the hollow side remaining dominant...or so I guess. This would explain how Aizen's arrancar don't have to use a transformation or "reach into" the other side to access their death god powers: the line between the death god and hollow existence within them has been erased. In the case of Vizards, the line is still present, but the hybridization process (creating an internal dual persona with hollow power) enables the death god to temporarily reach over that line dividing death god & hollow souls, & employ their own hollow abilities.

Ichigo ...seems...to fit this model as a death god who taps into the hollow realm by becoming a Vizard. He is, however, unique as a human (human souls aren't supposed to have internal death god powers) and as a death god (achieving shikai & bankai in about 3 months, faster than normal death gods who can take dozens of years to achieve shikai, and most cannot achieve bankai at all). The fact that he's also the son of a Death God (...death gods can procreate?) further adds to his uniqueness within the Bleach universe.

Galth
November 04, 2006, 05:23 PM
I kinda liked this chapter, it's finally a little different from the SS arc, IMO. I think Nell has some power, but not a lot, his hidden powers will probably help Ichigo to develop his own hidden Hollow powers that he hasn't use yet


I don't think Nell has any significant powers, nor will he add anything to the fights or power of anyone, he's more there storywise, possibly to guide the others and explain stuff, like Hueco Mundo rules and what goes on there or something, but anyway:

I wonder why Aizen showed Inoue the Hougyouku... perhaps he is trying to lure her to use her power on the place where it's hidden, and will he have swapped the gem with some other thing he wants her to use her powers on or something, a trick? Anyway, i think Inoue's daring plan will fail, there's no way Aizen wouldn't have forseen her thoughts =/

rocker2
November 04, 2006, 05:25 PM
Great explanation Lexx. A little bit more to add. For a death god to become a vaizard, they utilize forbidden techniques and kido to spawn the inner hollow. They then overcome the inner hollow - the whole king riding the horse deal - gaining control of the abilities of the horse (ie. hollow) and in total have a whole new range of abilities possible. This is symbolized by a shinigami gaining a mask. For the hollows to become arrancar, the houygoku is required to safely remove the majority of the mask endowing the hollow with shinigami powers. As was stated, this comes from the fact that an inner zanpakutou personality is spawned where upon the hollow subjugates. The extent to which they are able to subjugate this personality seems to define whether or not they are able to wield a zanpakutou. The result in either case is an arrancar. In both cases there is a dual persona, though in both case it seems the fully fledged vaizards and arrancar subjugate and silence the secondary one to be their "horse." Arrancar stay in their hybridized state full time while the vaizard are able to minimize their powers further. However, this does not affect either sides potential or equivalence.

Ichigo, however, is neither arrancar nor vaizard. Though we don't know whether Ichigo was born as a hybrid shinigami and human to begin with (we know Isshin was shinigami, but a shinigami can be made human (what Urahara was doing to Rukia) so we don't know if at birth, Ichigo was both human and shinigami). However, we do know that the true birth of Ichigo's own powers occurred during Urahara's training where upon Ichigo went from human to human/shinigami/hollow - ie. Ichigo is a true, natural hybrid of all three. He also did not utilize a forbidden technique, nor kido. Thus Ichigo is in a class of his own, or almost. There is one other person who resembles Ichigo in "genetic" make-up and that would be Inoue. Her powers and soul are also a combo of all three. Therefore, both Ichigo and Inoue's potential should be the greatest out of all characters revealed so far as they have a true omni-spiritual soul making them beings of all three domains (living world, HM and SS). How this will play out in the story...

Urazz
November 04, 2006, 06:44 PM
Ichigo, however, is neither arrancar nor vaizard. Though we don't know whether Ichigo was born as a hybrid shinigami and human to begin with (we know Isshin was shinigami, but a shinigami can be made human (what Urahara was doing to Rukia) so we don't know if at birth, Ichigo was both human and shinigami). However, we do know that the true birth of Ichigo's own powers occurred during Urahara's training where upon Ichigo went from human to human/shinigami/hollow - ie. Ichigo is a true, natural hybrid of all three. He also did not utilize a forbidden technique, nor kido. Thus Ichigo is in a class of his own, or almost. There is one other person who resembles Ichigo in "genetic" make-up and that would be Inoue. Her powers and soul are also a combo of all three. Therefore, both Ichigo and Inoue's potential should be the greatest out of all characters revealed so far as they have a true omni-spiritual soul making them beings of all three domains (living world, HM and SS). How this will play out in the story...

I agree, it seems like Ichigo and Inoue are in a class all on their own but I'd also possibly include Chad in this as well. Of course we don't really know if Chad's powers will amount to anything of great potential like Ichigo's and Inoue's other than the hint that Chad's powers resembles a hollows.

lexx
November 04, 2006, 06:59 PM
Rocker2: I disagree on the difference between Arrancar & Vaizard :)

Vaizard's technique creates a parallel self that inhabits the same body, but realizes the hollow end of the power spectrum. That personality is then subjugated & then coerced into lending its ability to the dominant personality. I say coerced, because the level of cooperation seems to be dependant on the death god & hollow personalities involved. This is why one of the vaizards never had a problem maintaining hollow form, but Ichigo has a hard time staying in control of it.

Hougyoku arrancar are an instant transformation with no observed internal struggle, or death god persona being created. Since their death god powers also don't seem to need be called out like the vaizard's masks do, I have a feeling they're a more "complete" hybrid: one persona, one form. Factor in the goofy arrancar like Nell and this idea runs into trouble, since Nell obviously doesn't have a typical hollow's personality. I have a feeling that there may be some internal struggle between personas when the hougyoku is used, and whichever side is more dominant wins, but the degree of domination determines the resultant personality. Since Nell was obviously a weaker hollow before his transformation, the new death god persona exerted more influence on what his merged personality is like.

So, to sum up...

Vaizards = multiple personality disorder with one dominating & coercing the subjugated persona to lend assistance on occasion.
Arrancar by means of Hougyoku: two personas completely merged, with both sides influencing the end personality to a degree unique to the character.

Now, as far as Orihime is concerned...She's unique. The nature of her powers aren't really comparable to any of the existing types (death god, hollow, vaizard, or arrancar) in Bleach. To be honest she's more like the hougyoku than any character: it has the power to affect a barrier in the soul, and she the power to manipulate space/time with barriers.

As far as Sado is concerned...he's a human that spontaneously manifested hollow powers based on instinct (fight or flight, direct threat to life)

Ichigo, as of this moment, seems to be a human child of a death god, who realized some of his heredity by tapping into his inherited death god nature. At the moment he did that he spawned a hollow side as well, and in that aspect, and how he controls the hollow, is similar to the Vaizards. I wouldn't be surprised if it's revealed that the method for a death god to become a vaizard is similar to Ichigo's process of realizing his death god powers (dying as a human, then interrupting the hollow transformation by reasserting the death god side).

WinterLion
November 04, 2006, 07:02 PM
While I hate to cut off this great discussion... this is the 250 discussion thread, so let's try to stay on topic please. ;) You're welcome to start a new thread to continue.

So in an effort to help get it back on track... Wonderwyce has taken a liking to Tousen, but Tousen says that he's not sure where Wonderwyce's purity lies. So what does that mean? What is Wonderwyce pure about? He doesn't seem very bright, and he's definitely not one of the Espadas (since he wasn't present at that Espada meeting), and yet Tousen takes the time to explain things to him. (Though part of his explanation was to benefit the readers). But if Wonderwyce was as simple minded as he seems, wouldn't Kubo-sensei have used different characters to do the explaining? Or was it because Wonderwyce is the newest arrancar? Thoughts anyone?

lexx
November 04, 2006, 07:09 PM
Not much to analyze there. It's uncertain what kind of "pure" Wonderweiss is yet, since he hasn't revealed much in the way of personality. The decision to explain the 3-numbered arrancar to him doesn't need to be read into either: it could be because he's the newest arrancar, it could be because Tousen's taking a liking to him, or it could be simply a convenient place to put that explanation to the reader. *shrugs* doesn't really matter.

WinterLion
November 04, 2006, 07:23 PM
But I think it's a little odd with what Wonderwyce has shown up until now. He's been portrayed as pretty simple minded that I find it hard to believe he would be able to understand the explanation unless Kubo-Sensei was portraying him to be more simple minded than he was. Also Wonderwyce has to be special... or why would Tousen put up with him? He listens to Tousen, and Tousen actally pays attention to him... Does that mean that they're trying to develop him more, or that he's special enough to qualify for special treatment even though he's not an Espada?

mangadictus
November 04, 2006, 07:55 PM
Wonderwyce has to be special. Since Tousen is blind, all his senses are concentrated into feeling some kind of inner strength and that he might have found that in Wonderwyce. Tousen talks about being pure, since Tousen has a different outlook on justice, he might have seen that in Wonderwyce but still has doubts on how "pure" his sense of justice is.

Fullmetalsasukefreak
November 05, 2006, 09:55 PM
wonderwyce is weird, is he one of the numbered? He doent seem too strong, but I bet he is. ^^

sharinganLS
November 06, 2006, 11:58 AM
But I think it's a little odd with what Wonderwyce has shown up until now. He's been portrayed as pretty simple minded that I find it hard to believe he would be able to understand the explanation unless Kubo-Sensei was portraying him to be more simple minded than he was. Also Wonderwyce has to be special... or why would Tousen put up with him? He listens to Tousen, and Tousen actally pays attention to him... Does that mean that they're trying to develop him more, or that he's special enough to qualify for special treatment even though he's not an Espada?
Hmm that is a gud point, he(Wanderwiss) does seem to be given special attention.

bax
November 06, 2006, 12:39 PM
wonderwyce is weird, is he one of the numbered? He doent seem too strong, but I bet he is. ^^


Well, he is one of the few characters that Kubo may find suitable to *hide* powerful latent powers.

WinterLion
November 06, 2006, 01:29 PM
Well, he is one of the few characters that Kubo may find suitable to *hide* powerful latent powers.

Wonderwyce is definitely odd... I doubt he would get this much special treatment if he wasn't really strong. Aizen said before that he didn't care about the arrancars that were defeated by Hitsun and co because they were "only gillians." Which means he doesn't care what happens to the weak arrancars. So for them care about Wonderwyce, he must be really strong or he must have the potential to become really strong. Plus, I got the distinct feeling that had it been anyone else to grab Gin like that, Gin would have cut off their hand. So why didn't Gin do that? Is it because Wonderwyce seems to be special case with Tousen? Or is it because Gin wouldn't have been able to do it?

lexx
November 06, 2006, 03:07 PM
Ichimaru Gin has used much more restraint than Aizen or Tousen in this regard. Aizen dispatched Hinamori, someone of no threat to him, instead of merely knocking her out. Tousen lopped off Grimjow's arm as a gesture of disapproval. Gin hasn't shown any tendency towards casual violence. To be honest, of the 3 traitors, Gin is the least understood in his motives.

To be honest, I think we're over analyzing this last scene with Wonderweiss, Gin, & Tousen.

ttxdragon
November 07, 2006, 06:23 PM
one thing i think we totally ignored is the chapter title
'five ways to three figures'
if we analyze wanderweiss, we might as well think what thi sone means...
does it mean that the other four will each pair up with one of the former group to fight one three-digit-arrancar? i think that would be the most fitting one judging from the level of power rukia and renji showed up till now...
does it mean five ways and all meet up with one three-digit-arrancar, thus just playing with the tres chiffras? - kubo thought of pretty nice titles for the chapters up till now, so this seems the less probable and most lame one to me...
or does it in the end point to aizen/tousen/gin or tousen/gin/wanderweiss? i think this one would be pretty farfetched even for KT.... at least i hope so... it would be nearly as lame as the second option...

thats just something that popped up when i read the hq-raws out of interest in the scan-quality.... ^^

mitterand
November 08, 2006, 10:13 PM
i think aizen wants orihime to affect the houkygo [pardon my spelling]. Because thats how it WILL RESTORE IT to its original self rather than wait for 3 or something months ryte? Thats why aizen showed her the hyokyou... to make her try to change it so it will work
aside from that... man i m looking forward to ishida and chad fights. ichigo, ruki and renji are getting dull now lol