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kitten320
December 16, 2009, 06:18 PM
I have done this thread in different forum before and thought I could do it here as well since here we have different people what means once again different opinions :)

This topic had a lot of argument and votes were going in a very interesting way back then... The fight was really tough! I wonder how things will go here.

Both are allowed to use whatever technique they have already shown.

I would like to also hear why you think so, not simply the name :)
Thank you :amuse


http://i204.photobucket.com/albums/bb57/Jonas64/soifoncool2.png

The credit for the picture goes to Waking_Dreamer

I took the liberty and added few options in the poll.

Galbert-Kun
December 16, 2009, 07:43 PM
Damn Hitsugaya batallas are getting lots of comments. I'd like to get in on this one.

Soi Fon has a hax shikai. She can do some decent kido. Her speed is pretty hax also. Jakuhō Raikōben. damn.
Hitsugaya has ryusenka, sennen hyourou, and hyoten hyakkaso when in bankai.
the kido he's busted out isn't too bad.


I see this batalla having both use alot of kido. Soi Fon is going to give Hitsugaya fits with her speed. No doubt if he gets hit with her haxkai, that ice clone (http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/356/07/) that everyone loves so much will be in use. Hitsu will have to be counterpunching in this one, taking hits and all of that. His objective will have to be for Soi Fon to go bankai and fire 1-2 Jakuhō Raikōbens so that when she is tired and can't get out of the way, Hitsu will need to do a bakudo 63+ to trap her, and then use ryusenka to finish her off. Sennen will work nicely too.

As for Soi Fon, if she gets trapped in Sennen, she will need to use shunko to break free. For her to win, she will need for Hitsugaya to use his ice clone. Once that happens, she could get him off balance with some Raikohos, and then trap him with Rikujoukourou. If that happens, she must work fast to finish him off with her haxkai.

kalik2k
December 16, 2009, 09:24 PM
I'm gonna say Soifon to take the win.

Her speed is definately superior and has more combat experience. I'd say she's about even on Kidou with Hitsugaya however Soifon's shikai is perfect to go with her speed, whereas Hitsugaya's shikai and bankai slow him down.

If Soifon can force Hitsugaya into bankai all she needs really do is go for Hitsugaya's wings/tail/body, his bankai increases his size which will make more targets for her to aim at so not only does Soifon win, she wins without using bankai.

Aikidoka
December 16, 2009, 09:51 PM
I think this would be a heavily lopsided battle. Not because Hitsu or Soi Fon are "weak", like haters would like to say; both of them have already proven their worth and power as Captains.

But Hitsu's strongest attacks all seem to require some level of preparation...his faster attacks are weaker and usually can't be counted on to OHKO.

Usually you wouldn't have to kill in one hit to win, but with Soi Fon it's almost required. Soi Fon's great speed (shown to be top tier), combined with her death-in-two-strikes Shikai, can allow her to -- all else equal -- kill Hitsu before he can strike her.

So, once Soi Fon attacks Hitsu once, it's pretty much a guaranteed death. To win, Hitsu would have to keep Soi Fon constantly on the defensive, shoot a bunch of attacks at her and prevent her from recovering or developing a plan. But this would also mean that Hitsu himself cannot spend time to prepare his strongest techniques.

Eventually I believe Soi Fon would win. If Hitsu gets her, Soi Fon will only be hurt (Hitsu can't use his stronger techniques due to lack of time), but if Soi Fon gets him, Hitsu will die.

If Soi Fon starts off with her Bankai though (which I doubt she will since she hates it), then this would be an entirely different story because Soi Fon would no longer have that speed to her advantage. But that has a lower possibility of happening since Soi Fon prefers her Shikai.

Random101
December 16, 2009, 11:44 PM
Hitsugaya does not die instantly by sheer virtue of his bankai form being an ice dragon that gets all over his body and everything, so defense wise he's not instantly boned for the two hit kill. Oh don't mistake me, it's still entirely within the realm of possibility, but unlike Kenpachi, Mayuri, and Komamura he doesn't pretty much die the instant the battle starts. And like Byakuya he's not supremely lacking in speed, so while he wouldn't be able to outpace her by any means, keeping up with and Reacting to her isn't outside the realm of possibility.

Largely a circumstantial fight. Soifon has to hit him either once with her bankai, or twice with her shikai. Bankai is HEAVILY unlikely to be a direct hit, but a near miss is just as likely to cause damage and throw him off. Shikai is going to be tricky but it's not as unlikely at least.

I'm going to give a slight edge, 55/45 to Hitsugaya, just because a majority of this is going to be Shikai vs. Bankai, and Soifon's bankai has to get damn close in order to work, and even if she does get that close the tail, wings, and ice formations he can use are going to be much more likely to hit, and to block he has just as much ice to work with, a majority of it attached to him already so diverting it just slightly to avoid the second hit is made all the easier. Really if it takes too long he's boned, but getting past the ice in that close a range is going to be tricky. I could easily see it going either way though. Soifon's ability is so hax that the circumstances make such a matchup purely opinion.

Truu
December 17, 2009, 01:59 AM
Soifon wins this. More exp, haxx skills and great speed differences.

kkck
December 17, 2009, 03:02 AM
I find it interesting how the two of them are polar opposites lol. Hitsugaya fights from a range(in general) using large volumes of water which cover a great area. By all intents and purposes his bankai is the sky. Soifon fights using close range combat and has limited range. Her shikai deals no damage unless it manages the two hits in the same spot. Given the narure of their combat strategies I would think hitsugaya has a decent advantage here. On the other hand soifon's banka works only at a distance and her limited shunko could prove very useful. Dunno, I will give this some more thought.

vizardichigo
December 17, 2009, 04:03 AM
Soifon > Hitsugaya. She is faster, stronger, more durable and her techniques don't take as long to prepare bar her bankai which would still WTFPWN almost anyone in Bleach if they took it head on. I dont think Hitsu is fast enough to dodge it.

Random101
December 17, 2009, 04:07 AM
Yeah, heavily unlikely. The thing moves slow enough (In a world of people who can move instantly of course) that at a reasonable distance anyone should be able to dodge it if they saw it coming, even with the most mediocre of flash steps. Hell, Kenpachi could avoid a direct hit from it if he actually tried. There's no way in hell he's taking a direct hit unless he lets it, or she restrains him with some sort of Kido.

kitten320
December 17, 2009, 06:55 AM
Interesting opinions, basicly it fully depends on situation. In one round Soi Fon and in second Hitsugaya. I agree, things can go both ways.

But here is something I was thinking while reading some comments.
I haven't thought about it before but what kalik2k had said makes me wonde... if his wings will get stabbed twice, will he die? After all they are part of him now.

If not than let's discuss how tought they are. Shunko has great desruction power what could give a very big crack in his defence maybe even fully break them.

And about bankai destruction power, I believe wings wouldn't save him. Just take a look at his fight with Lupi who had fully destroyed his defence with his six extra hands and I really doubt that their power is stronger than her bankai. Also Hachi admited it to have a MAJOR destruction power and he is barrier specialist, so he knows what he is saying.

My point is that wings are not such a big deal if you think about it.

And about dodging... I can't really see it to be dodged... Take look at all Cero attacks. Mostly all of them were taken head on or only slightly missed. The explosion from bankai takes major area so slightly avoiding it won't help. But if it is possible to escape, it still blows you off.

Random101
December 17, 2009, 10:57 AM
Oh, Hitsugaya dies with a direct hit, no question. Problem is, it's a missile that doesn't move all that fast. Cero, after the chargeup at least, fires instantly. The missile is shown having to traverse quite a distance, and didn't just plain happen instantly. Hell, the only reason Barragon took it was that he's so hax that it was no threat to him the first time, and he couldn't avoid it the second time as the barrier would set it off if he did.

Similarly Kyoraku was dodging those mass amounts of ceros with ease without really using flashsteps. It's easy to dodge them, people are just outright retarded about it.

Further, slightly avoiding it means that, provided it doesn't hit like a wall behind him or something, it doesn't go off in his vicinity. It's a missile, it won't blow up unless it hits something. Hell, a simple well placed flash step would get him far enough away that logically he'd avoid both it and the blast area were that even the case. It's heavily unlikely that he gets with the explosion unless he's either retarded about it, or is restrained somehow. Don't get me wrong, the shockwave is bad enough that it's impossible to avoid, but the boom? Not a chance.

Aikidoka
December 17, 2009, 07:56 PM
Well, the thing with all this speculation about Soi Fon's Bankai is, will she actually find a reason to use it? Like Hitsu's strongest attacks, Soi Fon's Bankai also takes a fair bit of preparation, and Hitsu won't even need to wait for Soi Fon to shoot it, if you know what I mean. While Soi Fon is Bankai-ing and aiming the missile, Hitsu could just use some ice attack and immobilize her. Short of being distracted Hitsu won't even give Soi Fon time to shoot the missile, so I think Soi Fon's Bankai is a non-issue. I'm pretty sure Soi Fon herself recognizes the disadvantages of using the missile against Hitsu as well.

IMO this fight would be a Shikai-vs-Bankai, Soi Fon would ironically have a greater chance using a Shikai than her Bankai in this case.

Random101
December 17, 2009, 08:21 PM
Yeah, it's a damn good thing her Shikai is so broken, given her bankai is pretty much completely nonviable save in select circumstances.

kitten320
December 18, 2009, 09:00 PM
I mostly saw the whole rocket flying as slow motion, I really doubt that it takes ages to reach.

But yeh, there is no reason for her to use bankai since she will simply lose time and disadvange herself in this fight.

Ramirez
April 13, 2010, 02:08 PM
If Harribel was too fast for Hitsugaya then there is no way he could stand up to Soi-fon

easy win for her

Random101
April 13, 2010, 02:12 PM
... When the devil was Harribel too fast for him? He managed to more or less keep his distance the whole time and his defenses more or less held in the few hits she did manage to score. They were, more or less, evenly paced that whole fight.

hakuthehedgehog
April 13, 2010, 02:17 PM
Hitsugaya wins this because he can use the ice petals attacks and freeze soi fon, killing her.
I don't see Soi Fon dodging that attack or Hitsu letting her go.

En Yang Ji
April 13, 2010, 03:11 PM
Harribel did seem like she could, be a lot faster. The speed of this attack seems to be the reason Hitsu fought at long range the whole battle: http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/355/17/, http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/355/18/, http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/355/19/

- If Soi Fong can keep Yoruichi on the defensive, because of her speed, how can Hitsu defend against her?

- A out of shape Yoruichi was able to out run Byakuya, with Ichigo on her back? Byakuya is an expert at flash steps too, how Hitsu going to fight Soi Fong? If Hitsu tries to fight at long range Soi Fong is just going to shunpo to his back.

Random101
April 13, 2010, 03:22 PM
He kinda reacted to that, and it was clearly a ranged attack anyway (Granted the power is in question as it was an 'illusion' for some asinine reason, but she certainly didn't think it odd that almost half his body was shaved off when she was that far away from him). Not nearly enough to say for sure, and the following fight does not remotely show either of them having any sort of advantage in speed.

Similarly his entire body is full of ice in bankai. This means, in addition to getting two hits to actually connect in the same place being tricky, getting close enough to connect is going to be equally tricky as with the tail and wings on top of the sword he kinda has a lot of ways to strike back if she gets too close, which she has to give the nature of her weapon.

Admittedly it's that she's so damn fast that even that's thrown up into the air, but the nature of his bankai gives him an edge that Yoruichi kinda doesn't have. This on top of the fact that while he's not faster than her he should be able to react to her semi reliably, which is assumably why Yoruichi didn't even try fighting Byakuya. Just because you're not as good at flashsteps doesn't mean you can't follow them and react to them, as Ichigo, who was heavily injured and didn't even know them in the first place showed when Byakuya attempted his senka trick on the bridge. Granted, not 100 percent reliable, but it's clearly a factor regardless.

Raizen
April 15, 2010, 01:41 PM
Hmm, good match up. i like both characters but I do see hitsugaya winning this after reading the comments here.

Soifon is no doubt among the top shuunpo users. She may be faster than hitsu, but that does not mean that she is too fast for him to counter. Being both captains, they should know about each other's strength and weaknesses somewhat. Hitsu would know about her speed and do well to counter it. Like throwing up ice pillars to slow her down.

In this battle, I do not see soifon using bankai. It will take away all the advantages she has which would put her in an even worse position. The moment she tries bankai, hitsu can freeze her. So this will be a battle between her shikai and his as others have pointed out. If she does get a hit on an ice wing or something, hitsu can simply discharge it and create a new one. As long as the hit does not hit his body he will be fine. So that is the main reason why i think hitsu can win.

kitten320
April 21, 2010, 05:47 AM
But now she has clone technique. If those are real bodies then they can give him real damga from any side.
If those are illusions, then they can confuse Hitsu and give her the opening.
If those are after images like with Ichigo, then her speed is much superior what will make the difference about everything that was said above.


Shunko also can explode so wings can be destroyed too...

Duno, I somehow go towards Soi's winning. Though it won't be easy one.

Random101
April 21, 2010, 10:36 AM
Soifon's shunko can't do crap. YORUICHI'S sure, that's actually viable, but her's didn't do diddly. There's a reason we haven't seen it since then, her's is kinda incomplete. By a lot. Even Yoruichi's is incomplete, though granted it's actually a potent force regardless.

Not sure about the clones, but she sure as hell didn't use them for anything at all really. In addition to them clearly not being solid (The art kinda depicts them as insubstantial), so I find that unlikely to be able to tip things over drastically. Granted however the difference in speed definitely makes things tricky regardless.

Raizen
April 21, 2010, 12:09 PM
^^Soifon's shuunko may be incomplete, btu it could get out of some tough situations, but that won't be enough.
As for teh clones, excuse teh pokemon reference but they are like double team. They are there for confusion. But it won't help since hitsu's ice has a wide range.
And soifon is not so fast that hitsu can't dodge. At least, not to my belief. Sure she may blitx him and get in the first hit, but not so likely that second will work. As seen, hitsu is a smart fighter. As in teh hallibel fight, he kept his distance b/c up close he knows he is at a disadvantage

Waking_Dreamer
August 12, 2010, 01:23 AM
Im curious, if Soi Fon does get in at close range, where its finger pointer against sword what are the chances Hitsugaya can hold up. She would have the advantage sure, with her hand-combat skills but whats the likely hood Hits can push her back to keep the distance again?

ryanzokuken
August 12, 2010, 01:38 AM
wtfSPEED + shunko + superior close range combat.

i think Soi Fon could win this even without "stinging" Hitsugaya. whether using her sealed sword or Suzemebachi just as a hand-to-hand aid weapon.
bring the two-strike into it and it should be pretty easy.

freezing Soi Fon, at least for more than a couple of seconds, is ruled out thanks to shunko. this may not be indefinite, as we don't really know if shunko has a limited time that it can be used. i'm sure that it does, but we don't know how much she can use it.

Hitsu is kind of relegated to physical damage from his sword, sharp ice, or kido, which he doesn't seem to use anyways.

even if he reacts to Soi Fon's speedy approaches and attacks, he'll just get his ass beat anyways. watch him swing his sword at her and her catch it or deflect it with Suzemebachi and snap his arm or give him some punch punch kick punch slash karate chop kick kick slash double prick combo or something. his wings and tail are useless if she has shunko on her. his sword is the only thing he can block a shunko-charged attack with that won't break, probably. and he's only got one of those. Soi Fon has four limbs and much higher speed.

yes, Hitsu is still strong and fast and a good swordsman because he is a captain after all, but Soi Fon is an expert melee combatant and super fast.

Waking_Dreamer
August 12, 2010, 01:43 AM
^ Interesting...thing is though weve never ever seen Soi Fon use shunko to fight anyone have we?

Do we estimate it to be a nerfed version Yoruichi's? Most possible with a much shorter duration?

Well Hitsu does have his limbs covered in his ice armor (not mantion those dragon talons on his feet) which would increase his base durability and perhaps prevent shikai penetration...?

Random101
August 12, 2010, 03:39 AM
Problem with Soifon's shunko is we have literally no idea what parameters it has. Yoruichi's Shunko is impressive yes, but that one was leagues ahead of hers, the two can't remotely be compared. Frankly till more information's given about it it looks virtually unsuitable for combat purposes save, assumably, a minor boost. Both in execution and in visual display her shunko appeared to bring nothing to the table that she didn't already have. We simply have nothing on it that can say anything substantial.

ryanzokuken
August 12, 2010, 09:10 AM
Problem with Soifon's shunko is we have literally no idea what parameters it has. Yoruichi's Shunko is impressive yes, but that one was leagues ahead of hers, the two can't remotely be compared. Frankly till more information's given about it it looks virtually unsuitable for combat purposes save, assumably, a minor boost. Both in execution and in visual display her shunko appeared to bring nothing to the table that she didn't already have. We simply have nothing on it that can say anything substantial.

i agree that we don't know enough about it, and so, i disagree with the bold text.

we didn't see her do anything once she went into it. Yoruichi went into her speech about having it already, turned her's on, and then, the fight ended.

i assume it's as Waking_Dreamer said; a nerfed version of Yoruichi's and with less time to use. Yoruichi basically has a high-powered energy field around her when she uses it. it helped her quite a lot with that strike against Aizen.

and if you look at the Bleach movies (DDR and i think FTB, too?), it has like a static field/energy aura effect, providing great defense in it's area around the user, and highly amplifying their melee attacks' destructive parameters. but yes, i know, i know, movies aren't canon.


how i imagine the start to this fight :p ....remember this...?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WeO5WCgexn8

Random101
August 12, 2010, 11:44 AM
we didn't see her do anything once she went into it. Yoruichi went into her speech about having it already, turned her's on, and then, the fight ended.
Actually we saw her rush Yoruichi and then get WTFNegated. The problem with making any sort of assumptions about her shunko is, frankly, she hasn't pulled it out ever after that despite several instances where such an aura field along the lines of Yoruichi's might have come in handy. Especially with Barragon's time dilation field prior to his releasing.

The largest and most important problem about it remains however: We have literally nothing on it. We can't assume literally anything about it with the information we have. With the charge she used she had no visibly increased speed, no booms like Yoruichi's, and frankly nothing that seemed to do anything. To assume it brings anything substantial to the table for her, especially given she hasn't pulled it out ever since, requires information that at this point doesn't exist. All we know is that it isn't even in the same league as Yoruichi's, and that doesn't help the case in the slightest.

It's literally impossible to use as an argument currently. Like Shunsui's Takaoni. Without anything on it, to suggest it will aid in her victory is to use information we literally don't have in the slightest.

Random101
August 12, 2010, 12:15 PM
He's got bare minimum a means to stay off the two hit kill. Granted it's not a sure thing, I'd assume Soifon's Physical ability is high enough to actually pierce regardless, but it makes hitting the same spot twice tricky. Further the additional ice limbs give him an easier means to attack from multiple directions, and add in that he can fling ice when she gets close and getting close enough to hit is going to be tricky without taking damage in some means. Further while she may break out of weaker formations, to slow her down enough to get some good hits in is always a good thing.

Though regardless Soifon is hax and fast enough to stay most of that to the point where, bare minimum, shikai vs. bankai would be rather close depending how you slice it.

Waking_Dreamer
August 12, 2010, 12:26 PM
Crap deleted my message instead of editing.

Anyway as I said before:

Well I think Hitsu's best close range tech is this:
http://www.mangareader.net/94-664-17/bleach/chapter-210.html

His sword just doesnt physically cut you if he gets one stab in, you'll explode from the inside out.

Hes also shown some nice reaction feats to "pointy things":
http://www.mangareader.net/94-586-13/bleach/chapter-132.html
http://www.mangareader.net/94-586-14/bleach/chapter-132.html

Leaving shunko to the side for the moment, I think he can hold out at least for a while against shikai Soi Fon to prevent instant death if she does come in close range. Im pretty sure Soi Fons bankai is out the question for this match as its probably even less developed/effective than her shunko.


Further the additional ice limbs give him an easier means to attack from multiple directions

Id say shed get one stab in and with a couple kicks and punches break the Ice armor on his limbs before he retaliates with a closed ice-wing shield.

Random101
August 12, 2010, 12:28 PM
I was refering more to an icy spiked tail during like a brief exchange or something, either forcing her to back off or getting her in a tight spot, but that's another way to go about it. Fling some dragon at her from the front, maybe shift the wings to avoid easy of retreat, and close combat becomes tricky. Not impossible, especially for her, but tricky none the less.

ryanzokuken
August 12, 2010, 01:17 PM
her shunko was overpowered/stopped by the same technique, only better. Yoruichi basically shut Soi Fon's off.

that's Yoruichi, using shunko against shunko.
there's no reason to dismiss the technique altogether when we're talking about any other opponent who doesn't have a superior shunko. granted, Yoruichi told her outright that she wasn't ready to use shunko or it needed a lot of work or whatever, but Soi Fon wouldn't have used it in the first place if it had no benefits/didn't boost her at all.

plus, Yoruichi's comments and warnings regarding Soi Fon's shunko were mainly implying that the technique is dangerous to the user to use, not that her's was just totally crap.

and as i mentioned, she's used it to great effect in Diamond Dust Rebellion and Fade to Black. story-canon or not, they can't just throw things in the movies that are blatantly wrong or made up. they aren't going to show Kenpachi as adept in kido or Byakuya breathe fire when they can't actually do those things.


if we're considering shunko, in my opinon, it's a blowout. shunko basically makes ice completely useless and means Hitsugaya pretty much has to get the job done with his own body/sword. his zanpakuto becomes limited to a creator of distractions.

without shunko, it's a close one, but i'd still give it to Soi Fon because of her melee combat superiority and speed.

HH is pretty scary, though, apparently.

hakuthehedgehog
August 12, 2010, 01:33 PM
I can't see Soifon escaping Hitsugaya's ice petal attack, nor I can see Hitsugaya surviving that nuke, so I'm calling this a tie.

Random101
August 12, 2010, 01:43 PM
they can't just throw things in the movies that are blatantly wrong or made up.
Actually they do. Many times in fact. The whole memory thing in Memories of a Nobody, where Shinigami aren't supposed to remember their living life (Not outright wrong but made up in general) two people having the same Zanpakuto, Rukia's past with two characters who haven't even been mentioned before when Renji, who was with her in childhood, didn't have a clue, the King's seal and time/space manipulation, etc... They do it all the bloody time.

Similarly you say it's dangerous to the user and that's why she doesn't use it... That sounds like it's making it less viable for combat to me as opposed to a key factor for victory.

Bottom line is still we have nothing on her Shunko regardless, so propping it up via any means is futile because we have absolutely nothing on it. Who says her shunko makes the ice void when we don't even have that much on it? Who says it foces things to be reduced to the blade? Since when is giant dragons biting you down negated by glowy stuff? Why does a sword work as opposed to bladed ice projectiles that can pierce you? Or Shattering them? Etc... Basically you're saying it does these things without anything of any sort of substance to back it up. Even Yoruichi's I'd have a hard time seeing negating crap like the Flock of Birds type of attacks if it manages to reach her (Which in itself is unlikely given she's that damn fast). Even assuming Soifon's is strong enough to do crap in a timeframe fast enough, it's not like just encasing's the only thing he does with the bloody thing.

All we do know is that she didn't pull out out when Barragon started slowing her down prior to his release, despite an 'aura' of sorts similar to what Yoruichi uses having quite the possibility of being very handy for that sort of thing (Especially offensively with those energy waves she was sending off), so it doesn't appear to have the same advantages.

ryanzokuken
August 12, 2010, 02:41 PM
Actually they do. Many times in fact. The whole memory thing in Memories of a Nobody, where Shinigami aren't supposed to remember their living life (Not outright wrong but made up in general) two people having the same Zanpakuto, Rukia's past with two characters who haven't even been mentioned before when Renji, who was with her in childhood, didn't have a clue, the King's seal and time/space manipulation, etc... They do it all the bloody time.

Similarly you say it's dangerous to the user and that's why she doesn't use it... That sounds like it's making it less viable for combat to me as opposed to a key factor for victory.

Bottom line is still we have nothing on her Shunko regardless, so propping it up via any means is futile because we have absolutely nothing on it. Who says her shunko makes the ice void when we don't even have that much on it? Who says it foces things to be reduced to the blade? Since when is giant dragons biting you down negated by glowy stuff? Why does a sword work as opposed to bladed ice projectiles that can pierce you? Or Shattering them? Etc... Basically you're saying it does these things without anything of any sort of substance to back it up. Even Yoruichi's I'd have a hard time seeing negating crap like the Flock of Birds type of attacks if it manages to reach her (Which in itself is unlikely given she's that damn fast). Even assuming Soifon's is strong enough to do crap in a timeframe fast enough, it's not like just encasing's the only thing he does with the bloody thing.

All we do know is that she didn't pull out out when Barragon started slowing her down prior to his release, despite an 'aura' of sorts similar to what Yoruichi uses having quite the possibility of being very handy for that sort of thing (Especially offensively with those energy waves she was sending off), so it doesn't appear to have the same advantages.

what has been shown of shunko demonstrates plenty of evidence for such effects,

Yoruichi and Soi Fon vaporized a large cloud of King's Seal-amped hollows in DDR, and it also gave Soi Fon disintegration/high cutting ability with her limbs/body in general in FTB.

it's like chidori or Kabuto's chakra scalpel in Naruto. but all over your body.

people break ice like it's wet paper every time it's used in Bleach. it sucks as it is. try hitting somebody with sharp ice chunks, whacking them with an ice tail, blocking their attack with ice wings, or freezing them solid when they have the shunko aura around them and it's only logical that the ice would crumble/disintegrate. with shunko, even the snowfall from HH would probably be useless and just melt/disintegrate before even touching her. on the off chance that she was to be encased in ice, if she shunko'd, she'd get right out.

as for the things you listed that the movies make up, those are story elements for the whole plot of the movie. like i said, STORY-canon aside, they don't just give people important propreties they don't have. Kubo does have a say and wouldn't just let them make up a bankai for Shunsui or something when he has a completely different bankai to reveal for him later in the manga. Yama isn't going to have lightning propreties in his shikai along with fire next movie. etc.

even if you disregard the movies, Yourichi punching right through the parts of Aizen's body that she contacted shows the exact same thing. we saw him block her punch with his arm in the exact same way right before, then with shunko, she went right through part of his arm and into his body and sent him packing hard to the ground.

as for why Hitsugaya's sword would be better for blocking/enduring shunko attacks than his ice...well, like i said, ice is wet paper in Bleach. zanpakuto's are tough to break. the actual sword is densely tempered with reiatsu and the source of the ice in the first place. it should be more hardy.

there hasn't been a ton of outright statements or displays of shunko and its capabilities, but saying "there isn't any sort of substance backing it up" is just not true. we've been shown what it can do. whether you choose to acknowledge those displays is up to you. i'm just confused as to what the difference between her's and Yoruichi's is. what changes as you become a better shunko user? how does one further master it? through training specifically with it, or just by getting more powerful themselves? etc.

Random101
August 12, 2010, 03:00 PM
as for the things you listed that the movies make up, those are story elements for the whole plot of the movie. like i said, STORY-canon aside, they don't just give people important propreties they don't have. Kubo does have a say and wouldn't just let them make up a bankai for Shunsui or something when he has a completely different bankai to reveal for him later in the manga. Yama isn't going to have lightning propreties in his shikai along with fire next movie. etc.
Oh please, I was just getting started. Ichigo having the ability to pass on his power to Rukia, Hitsugaya's consistent winged Ice dragon (which while possible has never been canon), Urahara's shred command, Soifon's two hit kill working drastically different to what we saw in canon, there are a lot frankly. This Shunko bit especially. Soifon's shunko, funnily enough, visibly LACKED the bit that made such a feat possible.

Similarly you seem to be misinterpreting what the Shunko did in that instance with Aizen. In this case, it augmented her punch many times past what Aizen could block. Didn't vaporize crap, she punched right through it with a superpunch. More importantly didn't offer any sort of defense, much less to ice, and frankly was far superior to anything Soifon's capable of regardless. You keep saying it would cause it to crumple, but not only have we never seen anything of the sort, much less from shunko, but you're also only using feats from Yoruichi's that are both misinterpreted and honestly not viable regardless because Yoruichi's and Soifon's aren't even in the same league.

Using Soifon's Shunko as a valid plan simply isn't possible because, again, we have nothing saying anything about what her's specifically is capable of. You ask how they are different, Soifon's only offered a sort of aura and nothing else visibly, Yoruichi's was a pure destructive force that when fully activated was destroying everything around her to the extent that she could only just barely control it. Hers I could definitely see destroying any sort of encasement, Soifon's however lacks that extremely necessary destructive force to achieve a similar feat.

Edit: Basically the difference can be seen here: http://www.mangareader.net/94-613-18/bleach/chapter-159.html

Yoruichi's is destructive enough that even when restrained it's destroying the crap around her. Soifon's appears to be some kind of wind force augment, even when she's clearly desperate at that point, ergo likely not holding back to anywhere near the same extent. Basically Yoruichi's destroys the crap around her, Soifon's doesn't. If anyone's breaking out of encasing, it's going to clearly be Yoruichi's.

Waking_Dreamer
August 12, 2010, 04:04 PM
^ Going back to read those chapters just now there is a difference. Your link seems unavailable.

Considering that the only noticeble times you see shunko in attack was Yoruchi's debut, attack on Aizen and the movies where Soi Fon was given similar effects. Its understandable that a person would be lead to believe Soi Fon would have similar but weaker version of Yoruchi's

BUT Yoruchi has commented that hers is actually at a completed stage...as in Soi fons is still at least 1 stage behind hers.
http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-chapter-158-page-18.html

Soi Fons is a swirlling cloud around her:
http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-chapter-158-page-16.html
http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-chapter-158-page-17.html

While Yoruchi's is condensed electrical bolts:
http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-chapter-158-page-19.html
http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-chapter-158-page-21.html

Im not sure that theres anything to suggest in the manga that Soi Fons shunko can just shatter Hitsugaya's Ice armor/wings just by being activated. Yoruchi's definitely, but Soi Fon has just never used "her version" yet.

Random101
August 12, 2010, 04:15 PM
Yeah, Soifon's seems the type that augments her abilities, basically a simple aura from what's shown. Yoruichi's seems to be some kind of concentrated destructive force that is highly unstable and prone to extremely huge blasts of energy out of crap nowhere. Hard to tell for sure of course, given we see crap from Soifon even in the brief scuffle that follows in the next chapter, but suffice to say the two are clearly not in the same league. Soifon's causes virtually no damage around her, Yoruichi seems to be doing everything she can to stop doing exactly that and failing miserably.

ryanzokuken
August 12, 2010, 04:45 PM
you can use completely speculated elements that have never been directly shown in the manga as part of your argument, but i can't?

time to toss out any benefit from Hitsugaya's tail or ice coated limbs then, for one thing. has he EVER attacked or blocked with his ice arm, tail, or feet? and we saw what happened when he blocked Luppi with his wings...

additionally, never once has he successfully frozen anybody, except for maybe Luppi, since it was the negacion beam and it's nether-dimensional propreties that freed him.

it only took a sonic wave from WW's bellow to crack the obelisk from HH, and from there, it seemed that Halibel broke out like every other character breaks out from ice.

with or without Soi Fon's shunko in the picture, Hitsugaya's ice is still hopelessly crappy. he basically has to get her with HH (and i seriously question whether or not he could land a flake on her) or somehow catch her with his sword itself (and i seriously question whether or not he could do that, either).

Random101
August 12, 2010, 06:20 PM
You're using it in conjunction with information that we know does not hold true. Yoruichi's easily is able to pose a factor against any kind of encasement, the force shown is quite obviously destroying everything around her. Soifon's Shunko however has nothing of the sort. Hence why comparing the two is a moot point, we know they're drastically different in that regard.

His wings took a direct thrust from Luppi's intial attack (took an all around spread to destroy it), the ice encases his whole body, he's used his tail offensively against Shawlong, and Wonderwiess scream has negation properties, we saw what it did to Mashiro's cero (hell if I know how, given it's supposed to be only for Fire, but LOL Kubo... >>).

Further while I'd agree his encasing rarely works (Save when he shattered Shawlong), the problem is timeframe. To defeat Soifon you have to be able to touch her, not easy in the slightest given her speed. However brief it may be, getting encased is going to slow her down for at least a brief moment, which is the point in which it's actually possible to land a blow. For Soifon to land hits she has to work though the ice around his bankai to connect, and connecting in the same spot twice isn't exactly easy with those things in the way. She could break through certainly, but it's going to take effort. Unlike Luppi her thrusts don't have that huge range to work with (Can she even reach him through the ice? Those wings could be quite a bit thicker than her arms... O.o) and she doesn't have the same kind of attack Luppi had that can break it.

Well I suppose she could flash around kicking the ice rapidly from multiple angles. That might shatter them, then LOL opening. Hard to say, I don't particularly know the force behind her kicks and hand to hand. Then again that's probably why I rated them more or less even in the long run...

Waking_Dreamer
August 12, 2010, 06:22 PM
You can use completely speculated elements that have never been directly shown in the manga as part of your argument, but i can't?

Its not that you cant speculate, but its a misconception that Soi Fons shunko has the abilities of what Yoruchi's has shown but just weaker. In the manga they have been shown visibly to be different and at different stages. We cant compare the feats because Soi Fons shunko hasnt shown any.

Hitsugaya's ice wings did well against a physical attack against a released Espada:
http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-chapter-232-page-7.html

Unless Soi Fon can hit Hitsu at 8 different places at once....his wings would help.

He has attacked with his tail:
http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-chapter-208-page-10.html

Can we say Soi Fon shunko > Soi Fon base? Yes and from the looks of it - it increases her physical attacks. Can Soi Fon shunko shatter Hitsu's Ice tail and wings? I would speculate it could...but I wont imply that Soi Fons shunko has abilities such as Kido explosions (energy blasts) or a destructive aura.

Finally for the defensvie qualites of Histu' ice, this is just my opinion but its not meant to be an unscratcable beastly defense like Komas' bankai armor. It doesnt need to be. Hurting Hitsu's ice doesnt directly hurt him.

Ever seen hundred of pieces fly off a F1 car when it hits the wall? Its meant to do that. Those crumple zones and flying pieces takes the kenetic energy away from travelling to the driver (at least a good prtion). Same with Hitsu's ice thats why it regens, its not meant to stop powerful attacks cold - just to buffer them. When Kubo finally takes off the immature bankai status off Hitsu then maybe he'll have beastly ice defense that people think he should have.

Random101
August 12, 2010, 06:29 PM
The bankai armor is a beastly defense? I can't recall anything hitting it that didn't do damage... O.o

Granted however the things hitting it happen to be grossly over powered, but that's mainly because Komamura keeps getting freaking jipped.

Anyway yeah, hard to gauge how good the defense is. I'd assume Soifon would at least be able to pierce, possibly even cause good damage with hand to hand, but it's hard to tell if that'll do any good, what with her not having a huge amount of range to work with. Jerk the wing back at the wrong moment and she might get stuck too for a brief moment and open to a counter. Hard to tell.

Part of the problem is Hitsugaya hasn't really fought any close range hand to handers, a majority of his opponents were ranged powerhouses, or Gin. And Aizen. And hand to hand seems variable in viability, most of the time it seems rather sucky, more damaging to the user against mooks, then Yamamoto comes along and WTFPWNs.

ryanzokuken
August 13, 2010, 11:02 PM
Its not that you cant speculate, but its a misconception that Soi Fons shunko has the abilities of what Yoruchi's has shown but just weaker. In the manga they have been shown visibly to be different and at different stages. We cant compare the feats because Soi Fons shunko hasnt shown any.

Hitsugaya's ice wings did well against a physical attack against a released Espada:
http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-chapter-232-page-7.html

Unless Soi Fon can hit Hitsu at 8 different places at once....his wings would help.

He has attacked with his tail:
http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-chapter-208-page-10.html

Can we say Soi Fon shunko > Soi Fon base? Yes and from the looks of it - it increases her physical attacks. Can Soi Fon shunko shatter Hitsu's Ice tail and wings? I would speculate it could...but I wont imply that Soi Fons shunko has abilities such as Kido explosions (energy blasts) or a destructive aura.

Finally for the defensvie qualites of Histu' ice, this is just my opinion but its not meant to be an unscratcable beastly defense like Komas' bankai armor. It doesnt need to be. Hurting Hitsu's ice doesnt directly hurt him.

Ever seen hundred of pieces fly off a F1 car when it hits the wall? Its meant to do that. Those crumple zones and flying pieces takes the kenetic energy away from travelling to the driver (at least a good prtion). Same with Hitsu's ice thats why it regens, its not meant to stop powerful attacks cold - just to buffer them. When Kubo finally takes off the immature bankai status off Hitsu then maybe he'll have beastly ice defense that people think he should have.

same properties as Yoruichi's or not, if Soi Fon's can do what it does to the environment and bodies, why would it have no destructive effect on ice?

no, just go ahead and disregard anything shown in the anime or the movies. until it better fits to support some other argument of your's, then it can be used. :amuse


Soi Foin can't hit eight times at once, but..err..it should be fairly clear that somebody like her can hit much harder than somebody like Luppi anyways..just like it should be clear that Luppi had no business being the 6 espada in the first place.:eyeroll (especially were she using SHUNKO)

my bad about the tail strike, i guess i had forgotten all about that.

Random101
August 13, 2010, 11:45 PM
same properties as Yoruichi's or not, if Soi Fon's can do what it does to the environment and bodies, why would it have no destructive effect on ice?
Uh, hers doesn't do anything to either, that's kind of the issue. From what's apparent, unlike Yoruichi's hers is some kind of aura force rather than something that damages environment or bodies. As in it might augment speed or hitting power (how much of course is in heavy question given we haven't seen jack from it) but beyond that it doesn't have any apparent traits that would do anything beyond that.

Always keep in mind she didn't pull this on Barragon when he started doing his slow down you trick for all the time she fought him before he started to break her bones (which was a while mind given the scene cut involved). If it were capable of what you seem to think it is, especially in what the non canon movies seem to think it's capable of, that in theory at the very least sounds like something that would come in quite handy against something that for no explainable reason is slowing you down at the last second. That she wouldn't pull it out then, despite having really nothing else to lose, suggests it might not be as handy as you think it might be in that regard.

Edit: And keep in mind, even if it wouldn't work out like that, that doesn't excuse her not trying with it. Kido for example sounded like a very handy counter to Barragon's ability, hence why Hachi approached him, but it didn't work out that way in the end regardless. That Soifon didn't pull it out suggests it's in fact not capable of, bare minimum, the force waves the movies think it is. Otherwise it would be laughable for her to not at least try that on him prior to his release against his slow down wave, to see if that did not in fact work with the Shunko bursts.

Waking_Dreamer
August 20, 2010, 05:58 PM
without shunko, it's a close one, but i'd still give it to Soi Fon because of her melee combat superiority and speed.


Im actually fine with that statement. Id say its definetly close and I reckon its fair enough for people to think Soifon has the edge...personally I think the edge goes to Hitsugaya.

Whats still an unknown variable imo is Soifons shunko in actual combat and a HH thats twice to three times powerful as the one shown. But putting both aside in the end Id say its a close battle.

MUCH better than say people who think Soifon speedblitz Hitsugaya who has no hope LOL. :blink :D

Anyways for the thread:


Soifon vs. Hitsugaya

http://i204.photobucket.com/albums/bb57/Jonas64/SoiFong30-1-1.png

Broken_Wing
September 04, 2010, 06:02 AM
I was just thinking, when Soifon used her 2-hit shikai + clones against Aizen, he seemed confident enough to counter, but Hitsugaya countered his counter with his ice.

http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-chapter-404-page-13.html
http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-chapter-404-page-14.html
http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-chapter-404-page-15.html

Does the support Hitsugaya being able to at the very least react to rush moves by Soifon?

To hit Aizen's arm from such a distance before Soifon actually came close to Aizen...that would mean his ice moves would be pretty fast right?

Evil3ye
September 04, 2010, 08:18 AM
Soifon vs. Hitsugaya

http://i204.photobucket.com/albums/bb57/Jonas64/SoiFong30-1-1.pngOP PLS \o/

Voted for Soifon, I just can't see Hitsugaya dodging her sting, seeing as how she even caught Yoruichi the god of blitz and like the fastest being in Bleachverse(?) a couple of times.

His iceclone might work once but that's all about it. Also he needs a certain time to prepare his finishing move. Enough time for her to place the second sting..

Broken_Wing
September 04, 2010, 03:16 PM
OP PLS \o/

Voted for Soifon, I just can't see Hitsugaya dodging her sting, seeing as how she even caught Yoruichi the god of blitz and like the fastest being in Bleachverse(?) a couple of times.

That was her title when she was in her prime...id consider that she was way inferior to her prime when she fought Soifon.

She even considered herself inferior to Byakuya on the bridge...and yes while slightly faster than him...basically had to runaway from him (which exhausted her to her disappointment) because there was no way to beat him in her current condition.

Hitsugaya took on the #3 Espada and against a opponent who superior to him close quarters was smart enough to keep his distance throughout the fight.


His iceclone might work once but that's all about it. Also he needs a certain time to prepare his finishing move. Enough time for her to place the second sting..

Theres no way Soifon can pierce Hitsugaya from the back...only place shes gonna reach him is from the front, where he spams ice dragons, spikes and arcs no problem.

She can dodge them from far away, but the closer she gets the more dangerous it is for her...plus Hitsugaya has shown great close quarters reaction feats already....against pointy things and by suprise no less.

Random101
September 04, 2010, 03:17 PM
I was just thinking, when Soifon used her 2-hit shikai + clones against Aizen, he seemed confident enough to counter, but Hitsugaya countered his counter with his ice.

http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-chapter-404-page-13.html
http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-chapter-404-page-14.html
http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-chapter-404-page-15.html

Does the support Hitsugaya being able to at the very least react to rush moves by Soifon?

To hit Aizen's arm from such a distance before Soifon actually came close to Aizen...that would mean his ice moves would be pretty fast right?
Possibly. Hard to tell because LOLILLUSION.

Broken_Wing
September 04, 2010, 03:24 PM
Possibly. Hard to tell because LOLILLUSION.

Aizen was (maybe) an illusion (still dont get that scene)...but Soifon and Hitsugaya's actions werent. In the moment she went for an "opening" Hitsugaya had no problem covering a greater distance with his ice before she made contact with "Aizen."

His Ice travelled faster than her body. I think in that scene thats pretty certain.

Evil3ye
September 04, 2010, 06:10 PM
She even considered herself inferior to Byakuya on the bridge...and yes while slightly faster than him...basically had to runaway from him (which exhausted her to her disappointment) because there was no way to beat him in her current condition.Excuse me? :blink
Thats like uhm.. your opinion, no more no less. Pls link a page, I must have missed something.. otherwise it's just a baseless argument.


Hitsugaya took on the #3 Espada and against a opponent who superior to him close quarters was smart enough to keep his distance throughout the fight.
The #3 Espada itself is a long range attacker and has no intentions to go into close range in first place. Don't know if one can credit Hitsugaya for that one..


Theres no way Soifon can pierce Hitsugaya from the back...only place shes gonna reach him is from the front, where he spams ice dragons, spikes and arcs no problem.

She can dodge them from far away, but the closer she gets the more dangerous it is for her...plus Hitsugaya has shown great close quarters reaction feats already....against pointy things and by suprise no less.I really don't see why Soifon shouldn't be able to attack him from the back and I doubt she'd have the slightest problems dodging his ice dragons and what not.. shunpo and speed clones for you :cookiehand

Broken_Wing
September 04, 2010, 06:51 PM
Excuse me? :blink
Thats like uhm.. your opinion, no more no less. Pls link a page, I must have missed something.. otherwise it's just a baseless argument.

http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-chapter-120-page-5.html

"No one there could have survived a fight against Byakuya."


The #3 Espada itself is a long range attacker and has no intentions to go into close range in first place. Don't know if one can credit Hitsugaya for that one..

http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-chapter-370-page-18.html

Hitsugaya made a conscious decision not to fight in close range which she wanted...


I really don't see why Soifon shouldn't be able to attack him from the back and I doubt she'd have the slightest problems dodging his ice dragons and what not.. shunpo and speed clones for you :cookiehand

Again:


I was just thinking, when Soifon used her 2-hit shikai + clones against Aizen, he seemed confident enough to counter, but Hitsugaya countered his counter with his ice.

http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-chapter-404-page-13.html
http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-chapter-404-page-14.html
http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-chapter-404-page-15.html

Does the support Hitsugaya being able to at the very least react to rush moves by Soifon?

To hit Aizen's arm from such a distance before Soifon actually came close to Aizen...that would mean his ice moves would be pretty fast right?

His ice already moved faster than her body...

and mate...his back is all Ice wings, armor, and moving tail.

Evil3ye
September 04, 2010, 07:15 PM
http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-chapter-120-page-5.html

"No one there could have survived a fight against Byakuya."

http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-chapter-370-page-18.html

Hitsugaya made a conscious decision not to fight in close range which she wanted...
:facepalm
Ukitake was also there.. do you believe Ukitake wouldn't stand a chance against Byakuya? This statement really might hype him to no end, but it's nothing but an exaggeration, seeing as how the plot went on.. and he lost to masked Ichigo before his uber powerups later..

The second page you linked again.. just no. She asked him to come, which he again interpreted as a taunt to shorten the distance to her. But irl she never expected him to do that but to attack with a long ranged ice attack, so that she could demonstrate her Hierviendo..
You agree?


His ice already moved faster than her body...

and mate...his back is all Ice wings, armor, and moving tail.The tail and wings might be hindrance, not an inviolable though. It broke after Hallibel's half-hearted cero (she used a weak one on purpose, stated by Touchiro himself).. and Soifon got shunko ;)

The fact that Hitsugaya caught Momo-Aizen with his ice does not mean his attacks are faster.

First of all, he used it offpanel. You do not know how much time he had to prepare them. You do not know in what distance he was to his target, you cannot say that Soifon's hand to hand is slower.. and ow.. did I mention that it was actually Momo?

Random101
September 04, 2010, 07:21 PM
First of all, he used it offpanel. You do not know how much time he had to prepare them. You do not know in what distance he was to his target, you cannot say that Soifon's hand to hand slower.
Actually next chapter we see the attack originated from the ground, as in it grew from all the way down there to him in a time frame that did not allow him to see it coming before Soifon also reached him and he could attack. And Hitsugaya himself was of a distance away enough that he wasn't particularly worried about him.

Granted however this in itself becomes up in the air when we go LOLILLUSION regardless... Hence why I'm personally ignoring all feats created during anything Aizen involved, especially the current shenanigans. >>

That being said if Yoruichi could beat Byakuya, leaving was the most stupid decision she could have made there. Fight Byakuya, let Rukia and Ichigo and the gang get out dah way, etc...

I mean hell, take out Byakuya before he even knew she was there. Then it's just Ukitake, who'd turn a blind eye, supposedly.

Evil3ye
September 04, 2010, 07:31 PM
You mean this? http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-chapter-405-page-6.html
However the distance is the one thing, the other more important thing is the speeding, which we didn't get to know thus one cannot say she's slower since Hitsugaya might have started the attack like 5sec before so that it had all time in the world to reach him .. he wasn't moving..

Waking_Dreamer
September 04, 2010, 07:32 PM
:facepalm
Ukitake was also there.. do you believe Ukitake wouldn't stand a chance against Byakuya? This statement really might hype him to no end, but it's nothing but an exaggeration, seeing as how the plot went on.. and he lost to masked Ichigo before his uber powerups later..

lolwut? :blink

When was Ukitake considered an outcast or invaders to SS? He was not going to fight Byakuya lol.

It was not hype either on Byakuya's prowess - but how many tiers below Yoruchi was compared to her maximum at the time. Yes, THATS how RUSTY she was.


The second page you linked again.. just no. She asked him to come, which he again interpreted as a taunt to shorten the distance to her. But irl she never expected him to do that but to attack with an long ranged ice attack, so that she could demonstrate her Hierviendo..
You agree?

Doesnt change the fact Hitsugaya knows when to keep his distance right?


The tail and wings might be hindrance, not an inviolable though. It broke after Hallibel's half-hearted cero (she used a weak one on purpose, stated by Touchiro himself).. and Soifon got shunko ;)

Shunko zSoifon has ZERO manga feats, but Id give her benefit of the doubt that shunko Soifon could break off parts of his ice.


The fact that Hitsugaya caught Momo-Aizen with his ice does not mean his attacks are faster.

First of all, he used it offpanel. You do not know how much time he had to prepare them. You do not know in what distance he was to his target, you cannot say that Soifon's hand to hand slower..

What is there to prepare for that attack, that is a standard ice attack that woud come from the tip of his blade.

Theres a decent distance from where it was launched to it seems.

http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-chapter-404-page-16.html

Also it hit Aizens drawing hand, so it would make sense he was aiming at it was moving hand.

Otherwise it would have missed.

http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-chapter-404-page-14.html


That being said if Yoruichi could beat Byakuya, leaving was the most stupid decision she could have made there. Fight Byakuya, let Rukia and Ichigo and the gang get out dah way, etc...

I mean hell, take out Byakuya before he even knew she was there. Then it's just Ukitake, who'd turn a blind eye, supposedly.

Exactly, it only makes more sense that she could not actually defeat him at the time, I mean being on all fours for 100 years, would dull your fighting prowess right?

Evil3ye
September 04, 2010, 07:41 PM
lolwut? :blink

When was Ukitake considered an outcast or invaders to SS? He was not going to fight Byakuya lol.

It was not hype either on Byakuya's prowess - but how many tiers below Yoruchi was compared to her maximum at the time. Yes, THATS how RUSTY she was. I think you got my point though, which is that not ever word holds as much weight as the one or the other is trying to put in it..;) Ukitake is not 'no one', is he?


Doesnt change the fact Hitsugaya knows when to keep his distance right?

Shunko zSoifon has ZERO manga feats, but Id give her benefit of the doubt that shunko Soifon could break off parts of his ice.The will is the one thing, but you did not prove to me that he actually can do that, if he has to. Hallibel didnot intend it to be a closerange battle, seeing as how her main attacks also are based on a certain distance.

You're right though that we havenot seen what exactly shunko can do, but how likely is it that it's weaker than a mere cero. Call me whatever, but I don't believe it is. :rolleyes:

For the rest, see the post above

Waking_Dreamer
September 04, 2010, 07:49 PM
I think you got my point though, which is that not ever word holds as much weight as the one or the other is trying to put in it..;) Ukitake is not 'no one', is he?

Well thats interpretation, I certainly think Ukitake can take on Byakuya, but based on context,

Yoruchi was not referring to Ukitake - which was my point.

Which brings back to the topic that Yoruchi IMO admitted she was not capable of defeating Byakuya right there on that bridge, which is the same condition that later Soifon would concede defeat to.

Soifon is not a higher caliber captain to Hitsugaya.

As for the offpanel ice thing, Hitsugaya didnt just aim for standing still Aizen...but a moving right hand drawing his sword. 5 sec before - Aizens hand would be on his righ side not on his left side where the ice tagged him.

Random101
September 04, 2010, 08:16 PM
What is there to prepare for that attack, that is a standard ice attack that woud come from the tip of his blade.

Theres a decent distance from where it was launched to it seems.

http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-chapter-404-page-16.html

Also it hit Aizens drawing hand, so it would make sense he was aiming at it was moving hand.

Otherwise it would have missed.

http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-chapter-404-page-14.html
Actually this is a damn good point. The ice had to be fast enough, and accurate enough, in an interval between when Aizen was moving to strike that it could reach him from such a huge distance and stall his arm before Soifon reached him, otherwise the entire thing would have failed. That is a tiny time frame in which to strike, much smaller than Soifon's own charge. Even arguing that it was done by surprise and with prep, which is not clear, would not change the sheer ungodly speed that would have to be involved regardless.

Of course that being said, LOLILLUSION still throws it entirely up in the air. We have literally no clue if that feat even counts, which is again why I'm ignoring everything Aizen does completely at this point feat wise.

Broken_Wing
September 04, 2010, 08:34 PM
Actually this is a damn good point. The ice had to be fast enough, and accurate enough, in an interval between when Aizen was moving to strike that it could reach him from such a huge distance and stall his arm before Soifon reached him, otherwise the entire thing would have failed. That is a tiny time frame in which to strike, much smaller than Soifon's own charge. Even arguing that it was done by surprise and with prep, which is not clear, would not change the sheer ungodly speed that would have to be involved regardless.

Of course that being said, LOLILLUSION still throws it entirely up in the air. We have literally no clue if that feat even counts, which is again why I'm ignoring everything Aizen does completely at this point feat wise.

lol...fair enough.

Thats why when it came across my mind...it was a pretty outstanding realisation in terms of this thread.

Based on this when the Illusion was broken, Hitsugaya's ice attack was still there:
http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-chapter-405-page-17.html

Which would mean he did launch it...and Im pretty sure Soifon also really used her two hit shikai.

So at that instance at least...to me Hitsugaya has proven that his ice attack...and reaction was faster than Soifons body movement.

OR in your case, in the Illusion - he was still faster. :amuse

Evil3ye
September 05, 2010, 04:38 AM
Well thats interpretation, I certainly think Ukitake can take on Byakuya, but based on context,

Yoruchi was not referring to Ukitake - which was my point.

Which brings back to the topic that Yoruchi IMO admitted she was not capable of defeating Byakuya right there on that bridge, which is the same condition that later Soifon would concede defeat to.
Now that is your interpretation. I see it in a different way, namely that Ichigo wanted to fight him on his own, but in his current condition he woulda been dead in no time.

The no one might have been refered that after his defeat Yoruichi would need to fight Byakuya while protecting Ichigo and the other fodder... blabla, we can go on like that forever, but I still don't see any point in his statement at all.


Soifon is not a higher caliber captain to Hitsugaya.Your opinion.


As for the offpanel ice thing, Hitsugaya didnt just aim for standing still Aizen...but a moving right hand drawing his sword. 5 sec before - Aizens hand would be on his righ side not on his left side where the ice tagged him.Lol no. :amuse
Hitsugaya can vary the target of his icy attacks in motion
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/0/00/HitsugayaShikaiAnimeEp48.jpg

daman246
September 05, 2010, 05:24 AM
soi fon wins like they say toishiro is still a kid and by his experience is by far on par with ichigo before he turn into godichigo

Waking_Dreamer
September 05, 2010, 09:49 AM
Okay lets recap:

I said, Yoruchi was not referring to Ukitake.

You said:


I see it in a different way, namely that Ichigo wanted to fight him on his own, but in his current condition he woulda been dead in no time.


The no one might have been refered that after his defeat Yoruichi would need to fight Byakuya while protecting Ichigo and the other fodder... blabla,

Might you say? In your interpretation Yoruichi has all the capability of of defetaing Byakuya right their on THAT bridge but would NOT be able to after letting Byakuya kill Ichigo and then have her try to protect his body plus the other people...

lolwut?


we can go on like that forever, but I still don't see any point in his statement at all.

Hell no...I certainly dont want or will mix up intreptations with you for howeve long you intend.

I have proposed a intrepetation that not only makes sense, is logical but most importatntly is probable. Your really grasping at straws, conjuring weird scenarios and pointing out only possible but in context completely ridiculous interpretations

Random101 points out the flaws in your idea with his post already:


That being said if Yoruichi could beat Byakuya, leaving was the most stupid decision she could have made there. Fight Byakuya, let Rukia and Ichigo and the gang get out dah way, etc...

I mean hell, take out Byakuya before he even knew she was there. Then it's just Ukitake, who'd turn a blind eye, supposedly.

Till there's an actual probable interpretation that counters mine the conversation doesnt really need to go any further.

Evil3ye
September 05, 2010, 10:36 AM
Waking_Dreamer, you're not getting it. You can use as much logic as you want, there is one point that will always come in your way. This one's called 'Plot'. Why the hell would Yoruichi want to defeat him in first place? She has absolutely not business with him. It would make no sense if she'd defeat him on the bridge, because he's got a clinch with the main protagonist. This is the rule of story telling, called plot.

Her retreat is not because she might have lost against him, c'mon.. she was toying with Byakuya as if he was a little boy, and he could not do anything about it. Now how can you say the same Byakuya is stronger than her, just because of her -calm down Ichigo.. not yet- speech. This is laughable. [you do not need to answer, because I'm gonna skip your reply on this anyway]

Come up with something new, or at least try to deny the -more important- lines I brought in

Broken_Wing
September 05, 2010, 11:04 AM
Why the hell would Yoruichi want to defeat him in first place? She has absolutely not business with him. It would make no sense if she'd defeat him on the bridge, because he's got a clinch with the main protagonist.

:blink

Because hes letting Rukia die...? So "plot's" the only answer is it? While plot is the concept of "story telling" does it make it okay for things to not make sense in the story's universe?

Yea, this is Bleach but if a person actually comes up with a reasonable meaning as to why events have taken place in your "plot", you reject it becuase it counters your arguments for Soifon...?

Anyways to be back on topic:


Lol no. :amuse
Hitsugaya can vary the target of his icy attacks in motion
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/0/00/HitsugayaShikaiAnimeEp48.jpg


Umm...thats a standard ice dragon attack - semi controllable in direction BUT doesnt leave ice structures behind it.

This one obviously did:

http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-chapter-404-page-16.html

Evil3ye
September 05, 2010, 11:24 AM
Damn right, I'm rejecting it because it counters 'my plot'. Not because Byakuya could do nothing about Yoruichi even if with having Genryusai's order to stop the intruders, no matter what.. :amuse

Umm...thats a standard ice dragon attack - semi controllable in direction BUT doesnt leave ice structures behind it.

This one obviously did:

http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-chapter-404-page-16.htmlHow.. why.. :facepalm
No. Whatever :tem

SOOOO.. what is your people's answer to Soifon's one-hit kill bankai btw. Cba to go through the whole thread, but since you apparently voted for Hitsugaya you musta thought about how he'd gonna handle it, no?

Broken_Wing
September 05, 2010, 11:32 AM
Damn right, I'm rejecting it because it counters 'my plot'. Not because Byakuya could do nothing about Yoruichi even if with having Genryusai's order to stop the intruders, no matter what...

Haha well I guess its alright that there whole reason to go to SS was to save Rukia - but with such an opportune time, it was okay for Yoruichi to let that go... :amuse

As for Soifons bankai, well Ive got to go out right now...so I'll let somone have a chance to share their thoughts on that.

Laters :tem

Random101
September 05, 2010, 11:50 AM
SOOOO.. what is your people's answer to Soifon's one-hit kill bankai btw. Cba to go through the whole thread, but since you apparently voted for Hitsugaya you musta thought about how he'd gonna handle it, no?
What, you mean the worst bankai in the series in terms of finding a practical use for it? Dodges frankly. Thing's not that fast, the setup is horrendous, and it slows her down to the point where it's more likely to be a one hit kill for him rather than her. If she manages to fire it off, which will be tough without a distraction let me tell you, the shockwave will nail him, no question, but she won't remotely be able to take advantage of it because it will get her as well. The blast however is laughably unlikely.

Soifon's bankai has literally one use, the ability to one shot massively powerful giant slow targets her shikai can't handle, or Mighty Glaciers if you will. The only reason it worked against Barragon was because firstly he didn't move in either instance, and secondly he took the first one and hid on purpose for some stupid reason. She takes out Yammi and Komamura's bankai no question, but people who can actually move she'd have severe trouble with.

Edit: Let me put it this way, Soifon's advantages against Hitsugaya lie in her shikai with her absolutely insane speed and more importantly her complete and total lethality with only two highly precise strikes. Soifon with that is hax plain and simple, to the point where even with far more devastating attacks and area effects to fall back on, Hitsugaya's going to have a rough time either way. He might be able to dodge at times, his defense might hold up for the most part to keep a large number of blows from actually connecting, but it's this state that gives him trouble to the point where victory easily goes either way.

To give up those advantages for a one shot kill that isn't even remotely likely to work is stupid. Her advantages lie in speed and lethality, not in a slow as hell explosion in comparison. The only reason to even pull something like that out is if she can't possibly win with what she already has, ie: Barragon. And anyone who thinks she is anywhere near that level of difficulty against Hitsugaya is not remotely giving her enough credit.

Evil3ye
September 05, 2010, 12:37 PM
What, you mean the worst bankai in the series in terms of finding a practical use for it? Dodges frankly. Thing's not that fast, the setup is horrendous, and it slows her down to the point where it's more likely to be a one hit kill for him rather than her. If she manages to fire it off, which will be tough without a distraction let me tell you, the shockwave will nail him, no question, but she won't remotely be able to take advantage of it because it will get her as well. The blast however is laughably unlikely.Hmm.. I disagree. The bankai was shown as a homing missle, I don't see how Hitsugaya would be able to dogde that.
http://images2.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20100626154929/bleach/en/images/e/e7/Soifon_Bankai.gif

Random101
September 05, 2010, 12:57 PM
That's anime only. Manga it was a straight shot. Next episode the anime even retcons itself to make it a straight shot.

thornofcarrion
September 05, 2010, 01:16 PM
Its a very interesting match up between two characters with contrasting styles. I am not sure who will win. Soi Fon is a close range fighter and Hitsu prefers long range fights. Soi Fon may try to close the gap but Hitsu can defend the distance between her. Soi Fon's bankia is pretty destructive but we know Hitsu has some special moves as well. I am unable to pick a clean winner from this fight.

ryanzokuken
September 06, 2010, 11:46 AM
That's anime only. Manga it was a straight shot. Next episode the anime even retcons itself to make it a straight shot.

Barragan was sitting still anyways. the loop that the missile did was pointless, even if it does home.

Omiem
September 12, 2010, 02:11 PM
What, you mean the worst bankai in the series in terms of finding a practical use for it? Dodges frankly. Thing's not that fast, the setup is horrendous, and it slows her down to the point where it's more likely to be a one hit kill for him rather than her. If she manages to fire it off, which will be tough without a distraction let me tell you, the shockwave will nail him, no question, but she won't remotely be able to take advantage of it because it will get her as well. The blast however is laughably unlikely.
How is it not fast? It's a high speed missile dude. In the manga the missile reached Barry almost instantly.
http://mangahelpers.com/forum/newreply.php?do=newreply&p=2063045
I'm pretty sure that's not what you call a slow attack. The preperation was horrendous, I agree. But does that mean she has to prepare her bankai like that all the time? No, because she manages to shoot it without any preperation right here. http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-chapter-382-page-21.html My only assumption why she prepared a lot against Barry is cause she understood Barragan's hax powers and needed to get into a position where she can shoot the missile closer to Barragan. Why do I say this you might ask? Well thats the whole reason for wearing the metal sash in the first place cause Soi knew she was gonna fire the missile uncomfortably close at Barry. After all, she could've just fired it from a longer range and wouldn't need the metal sash really, but if that was the case, then Barry would've had more than enough time to counter/avoid it and Soi might've known that. So I guess you can say that she wanted to make sure the missile would reach Barry.

Soi would manage to fire the missile off without a distraction as long as she creates enough distance between her and the opponent. Otherwise, she would be screwed.

Soifon's bankai has literally one use, the ability to one shot massively powerful giant slow targets her shikai can't handle, or Mighty Glaciers if you will. The only reason it worked against Barragon was because firstly he didn't move in either instance, and secondly he took the first one and hid on purpose for some stupid reason. She takes out Yammi and Komamura's bankai no question, but people who can actually move she'd have severe trouble with.
Another use for Soi's bankai is to take out massive armies, not just huge opponents. What do you mean her shikai can't handle powerful giant targets? Care to give me proof?

Random101
September 12, 2010, 02:36 PM
What, do you not see it having to charge up, release the fins, and gather energy here: http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-chapter-373-page-19.html

It's a straight shot with a clear charge time, and more importantly took a brief moment to reach in the first place here: http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-chapter-374-page-4.html and the following page. Not a long while mind you, but a long enough time that instantaneous movement, which pretty much everyone has, would clearly screw it over. There's WAY too much setup and time in general involved, even without the cloth mind you to make it even remotely reliable against an opponent that moves.

Secondly I said her bankai's only use is against powerful giant targets her shikai can't handle, not that her shikai can't handle powerful giant targets. Huge difference, but the case that would be is a powerful giant target with a large enough defense that her shikai can't pierce it anywhere. Or something.

Similarly blast size isn't that large so taking out an army isn't reliable unless it's an incredibly condensed squad or something. You need a far larger blast radius to be army prone, and even then with flash steps most would be able to get out dah way if they see it in the first place.

Evil3ye
September 12, 2010, 02:43 PM
She needs some time to aim, granted. As soon as she fires it off there is no way Hitsugaya or anyone else could dodge it, cuz its going straight for the target, as you can see on the next page http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-chapter-374-page-5.html

Random101
September 12, 2010, 02:49 PM
What, you mean the single nonmoving target? Move slightly to the side and it passes you by completely from where I'm standing. There's also that he managed to send out respiera in time to set it off early before it could reach him, but that goes without saying. All that points to that there's clear flight time and other crap involved that just plain make it nonviable for combat if the opponent's being remotely intelligent, or just not flat out broken as hell.

Granted that still puts it well above Ulquiorra's lance, as it actually IS capable of hitting a nonmoving target not that far away, but the speed and charge counts against it.

Omiem
September 12, 2010, 03:02 PM
What, do you not see it having to charge up, release the fins, and gather energy here: http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-chapter-373-page-19.html

It's a straight shot with a clear charge time, and more importantly took a brief moment to reach in the first place here: http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-chapter-374-page-4.html and the following page. Not a long while mind you, but a long enough time that instantaneous movement, which pretty much everyone has, would clearly screw it over. There's WAY too much setup and time in general involved, even without the cloth mind you to make it even remotely reliable against an opponent that moves.
So that's what you meant? I thought you were implying that the speed of the missile itself was slow, but okay...
Anyways, the charge time isn't generally that slow as you claim it to be but I do agree it would give fast people a brief moment to dodge the missile if they know what's coming. I just question if they could get out of the blast range/aftershock.

Secondly I said her bankai's only use is against powerful giant targets her shikai can't handle, not that her shikai can't handle powerful giant targets. Huge difference, but the case that would be is a powerful giant target with a large enough defense that her shikai can't pierce it anywhere. Or something.
I see where your getting at. Agreed.

Similarly blast size isn't that large so taking out an army isn't reliable unless it's an incredibly condensed squad or something. You need a far larger blast radius to be army prone, and even then with flash steps most would be able to get out dah way if they see it in the first place.
I never said that Jakuho Raikoben was gonna be the most reliable to take out large armies. I'm just simply saying that that's another use for it since you stated that there was literally only one use for it.

Evil3ye
September 12, 2010, 03:02 PM
Well, there's also a preperation time to fire a Lanca (create it, aim, lunge, w/e), and what makes you think the bankai slower anyway? meh, we're not here to discuss Lanza.

You're right though, that there might be enough time for Hitsugaya to create an ice wall or something while it's flying toward him, since Barragan also managed to use Respira the moment it fired off. But what'd be the use of it? He'd probably still die, even if the explosion wouldn't hit him directly.

Random101
September 12, 2010, 03:17 PM
I never said that Jakuho Raikoben was gonna be the most reliable to take out large armies. I'm just simply saying that that's another use for it since you stated that there was literally only one use for it.
I actually meant one use that's actually the ideal point where she'd go and say "Hey, it's actually far more of a tactical option to not use my absurdly broken shikai and instead pull out my bankai." She could indeed use it in other situations. The problem is those other situations would have her just going LOLSUPERSPEED 2 HIT KILL being a far wiser option to choose.

Also no one dies from her bankai without getting caught in the blast at least partially. The shockwave is immense, don't get me wrong, but it's not going to take out people by any stretch of the imagination. Omaeda survived it for crying out loud. Granted he's not as weak as he lets on, and is the only one to survive Barragon without a scratch, but he's not captain level.

In fact I'd say the Shockwave would almost make it viable as to completely throw the opponent offguard... if Soifon wasn't hit with it too doing the exact same thing.

Also not saying the Lance is faster, in fact by and large despite the massive size I'd say the lance's specs are in fact worse in every other facet between the two save that it's actually spamable I suppose, just that even though her bankai has absurd power and actually decent aim the fact that it takes more than enough time for people to actually avoid it makes it not as handy as most other bankai should be given this is a world where everyone and their mom, literally in Iba's case, has instant movement to fall back on.

Evil3ye
September 12, 2010, 03:22 PM
Ugh. The shockwave wouldn't kill anyone, you right. I wasn't saying that though. But look. If he manages to create an ice wall whatever in a distance of like 10-15m.. I just believe it'd still be too close and he'd get killed by the explosion (link (http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-chapter-373-page-20.html)), not the shockwave.

Random101
September 12, 2010, 03:26 PM
Indeed. That's why I'm saying the best option, and in fact the most intelligent by far, is to just flashstep out the way and straight up avoid it completely (Till the shockwave hits then they're both thrown for a loop). Why attempt to block when you can just move.

Evil3ye
September 12, 2010, 03:28 PM
I was assuming it's homing, but it might be just me.

Broken_Wing
September 12, 2010, 03:31 PM
Not to mention if both fighters were on equal energy/health should Hitsugaya shunpo a far enough distance, even if both were hit by the shockwave, Soifon would definitlely be in worse for wear as her bankai takes a large toll on her body.

Hitsugaya would have the edge after the blast.

Omiem
September 12, 2010, 03:41 PM
I actually meant one use that's actually the ideal point where she'd go and say "Hey, it's actually far more of a tactical option to not use my absurdly broken shikai and instead pull out my bankai." She could indeed use it in other situations. The problem is those other situations would have her just going LOLSUPERSPEED 2 HIT KILL being a far wiser option to choose.
Oh so that's what you meant? Okay, then I agree.

Also no one dies from her bankai without getting caught in the blast at least partially. The shockwave is immense, don't get me wrong, but it's not going to take out people by any stretch of the imagination. Omaeda survived it for crying out loud. Granted he's not as weak as he lets on, and is the only one to survive Barragon without a scratch, but he's not captain level.
Yeah. If someone gets caught in the aftershock, then they would only be injured at best. If someone gets caught in the blast range, then they could possibily die. If they get a direct hit, then it's almost 95% certain the target will die.

Her bankai would be more reliable if the missile can explode without contact(meaning even if the target tries to shunpo away, the missile will still explode as long as the missile is near the target) or if it had a tracking ability. The manga doesn't confirm any of this is so it's only speculation. I just hope if we ever get to see Jakuho Raikoben again, KT will give Soi Fon those abilities.

Waking_Dreamer
September 13, 2010, 03:55 AM
Question: What are the chances that Soifons shunko can blow away HH....?

I no there is little to no info on it...but by even what you've seen on the panels...doesnt it even suggest it could happen...?

Broken_Wing
September 14, 2010, 12:09 AM
Question: What are the chances that Soifons shunko can blow away HH....?

I no there is little to no info on it...but by even what you've seen on the panels...doesnt it even suggest it could happen...?

Highly doub it...! lol

HH flakes arent like regular snow flakes ad whats this business of Soifon's shunko being wind based...?

Even if thats so isnt that like tying to blow back a blizzard with an electric fan LMAO.

Random101
September 14, 2010, 12:20 AM
Hard to say actually. It'd totally work as a defense if she were able to keep it constantly whirling around her to the point that non of the flakes could actually touch her body presumably, but I have doubts that would trigger them to suddenly blossom and they'd still be coming until they manage to get through. Frankly he has less to gain with HH against Soifon than trying to stop her for a second so he can actually land a decent blow in.

Broken_Wing
September 14, 2010, 12:26 AM
Hard to say actually. It'd totally work as a defense if she were able to keep it constantly whirling around her to the point that non of the flakes could actually touch her body presumably, but I have doubts that would trigger them to suddenly blossom and they'd still be coming until they manage to get through. Frankly he has less to gain with HH against Soifon than trying to stop her for a second so he can actually land a decent blow in.

Wouldnt that use up a lot of her reiatsu?

The fact that she seems way behind in competancy comapred to Yoruichi's whos is more powerful yet is still beyond being mastered by her...it seems like a last ditch effort on Soifons part than method reliable enough to set in motion - in the middle of battle.

Waking_Dreamer
September 14, 2010, 04:23 PM
Well considering it couldn't even affect the surroundings around her (unlikie Yoruichi's more charged/powerful kido bolts that crackled and cracked the ground beneath), I see it is more of a gathering of her reiatsu.

Lets go way out on a limb here and say it is a wind-based thing, its sheer incompleteness would make it as effective or even less so than say Kira's wind kido.

Hystzen
September 14, 2010, 05:12 PM
soi fon outclasses histu

speed blitz is a option straight away quick speed stab 2k0

her bankai is over kill on him..even just guarding with wings he be destoyed.

histu is not ready to take on some one of soi fons level at the moment

Waking_Dreamer
September 14, 2010, 05:19 PM
soi fon outclasses histu

speed blitz is a option straight away quick speed stab 2k0

her bankai is over kill on him..even just guarding with wings he be destoyed.

histu is not ready to take on some one of soi fons level at the moment

The only the distinct advantage she has on him is speed.

Defense, Range, AOE, Reiatsu, Bankai sustainability/regen are in Hitsu's court. CQ reaction feats have been shown by Hitsu as well.

For the record I dont consider her a higher-rank Captain than Hitsu.

Hystzen
September 14, 2010, 05:27 PM
histu is like ichigo ..he needs to bankai to be even level in fights..he needed bankai against..luppy..shawlong...fraccion....

soi fon doesnt rely on bankai her shikai is enugh for this fight...everytime histu pulls distance so go up close n force him in a close fight..even after he uses his fan service power of ice clone..she repeat n stab him 2k0 again.

she only use bankai if she wanted to really hurt him after ice clone...histu is not good enugh

Waking_Dreamer
September 14, 2010, 06:47 PM
Hitsu is like Ichigo as in somehow they can maintain their bankai's for extended periods of time. Hitsugaya's bankai doesnt debilitate him in anyway, and is actually a very-well rounded bankai with myabe the AOE power he holds back.

Soifon's bankia as mentioned numerous times in this thread is the most impractical bankai we've seen so far. Going bankai in the heat of battle would almost be suicide for her.

In a theoretical fight of just these two around - would mean Hitsu can let go of inhibitions of using his power to the full i.e. no civillians, no real-world buildings, no allies to look out for.

I think this makes as much as a difference as a scared Ichigo and a determined one.

Eddy01741
September 14, 2010, 07:40 PM
Hitsu is like Ichigo as in somehow they can maintain their bankai's for extended periods of time.

Okay, name me any bankai that can't be maintained for extended periods of time besides Soi Fon's.

Of all the bankai's we've seen of the captains, all of them are sustainable except for Soi Fon's:

Soi Fon: 1, maybe 2 shot nuke
Gin: He can spam it like a Gatling gun
Byakuya: He was using it for the majority of his fight against Ichigo, seems sustainable
Komamura: No sign that he can't sustain it
Tousen: The only time his bankai stopped working was when Kenpachi utterly destroyed him
Mayuri: Same as Koma
Renji: Same as Koma
Ikkaku: Same as Koma

I do agree though, Soi Fon's bankai is both impractical and has about zero synergy with her other abilities (shikai, shunpo, shunko, and hand-hand combat prowess).

Broken_Wing
September 14, 2010, 07:56 PM
Okay, name me any bankai that can't be maintained for extended periods of time besides Soi Fon's.


Actually Renji's - Its held together by his reiatsu and has been shown and told that he cannot maintain it for long.

The other bankai users have either been one-shotted or only ever used it in half a battle or so. Byakuya is the only arguable enough to show as a feat that he can maintain it longer.

In either case for the others, maintaining it would be impractical in one way or another showing again Hitsugaya's bankai actually is more well-rounded second only to Byakuya's...

kkck
September 15, 2010, 10:07 AM
From what I understand, HH reacts to touch. In that sense, provided soifon can evade the snowflakes she will be fine. I think she'd shunpo away from HH rather than taking it head on like harribel did. Even a low level kido which could get in the way of the would be petals would do wonders here. The technique is powerful but I think it has too many flaws for it to be used against enemies who would not try to directly counter it.

Hystzen
September 15, 2010, 11:18 AM
doesnt histu need alot of moisture to start HH tho..only reason used it coz harribel was using water..soi fon wont hang around long enugh to give him a chance to use HH.

also wwe dont know much about soi fons bankai..i no doubt think it faster then portrayed..but could she use flashstep n appear above someone fire it n stuff makes you wonder

Random101
September 15, 2010, 01:06 PM
HH can be used at any moment, it's an environmental control technique, he doesn't have to wait for anything it'll already be there to use. Just doesn't want to, in order to make sure he doesn't freeze everything for 7 and a half miles given what he said to Kira.

Waking_Dreamer
September 15, 2010, 01:09 PM
yea, we wouldnt want something like this to happen with allies all aorund...

http://i204.photobucket.com/albums/bb57/Jonas64/Hitsugaya_HH_small-2-1.jpg

ninjabot
November 23, 2010, 05:35 AM
Giving the win to Soi Fon based on the greater amount of advantages. Shunko amplifies her attacks with kidou, making them more likely to shred through his ice armor. I seriously doubt she couldn't do it with her shikai alone though as his ice doesn't look all that strong. And before attempting to downplay Soi Fon's Shunko, remember, it wasn't swatted away nonchalauntly by Yoruichi: it was canceled out. That's not proof that it's weak, just proof that Yoruichi knew the secret to shutting it down. Hitsugaya does not.

Then there's her speed, making a speed blitze very likely. The most Hitsugaya could hope for in surviving this strategy is swinging out a glancing blow in the midst of her hail of attacks, or fooling her with his ice Cicada. Provided she doesn't stupify him with an army of intangible (atleast I think they're intangible) clones first. And she's far, FAR more likely to capitalize on a moment of confusion than Hitsugaya, as she's simply that much faster than he.

And if we want to bring the databook into it, Soi Fon is stated to have a very high stamina. She can run circles around Hitsu until he's spent, then go for the 2 shot kill. Bankai's obviously not being taken into account, as it's not something you wanna use in a one on one fight with anyone that has access to shunpo/sonido.

Takahashi
November 23, 2010, 11:25 AM
yea, we wouldnt want something like this to happen with allies all aorund...

http://i204.photobucket.com/albums/bb57/Jonas64/Hitsugaya_HH_small-2-1.jpg

That's one badass picture, but I'm with Ninjabot on this one.

shaheer
November 23, 2010, 11:53 AM
I dun know ..i doubt Hitsu will loose to soifong... her bankai is just a meh... bam rocket launcher... hitsu can possibly cool the area and freeze the firepower... only trouble is her shunpo...which she can barely use in bankai mode....it considerably slows her...having to carry that bazooka and all... she is formidable in shikai but i doubt a captain will sit quitely and get hit by a shunpo comboed shikai..... she may hit first but the after math is her arm being freezed to a frost bite... and she needs 2 hits too... so i doubt soi fong can win against Hitsu

Takahashi
November 23, 2010, 09:46 PM
I dun know ..i doubt Hitsu will loose to soifong... her bankai is just a meh... bam rocket launcher... hitsu can possibly cool the area and freeze the firepower... only trouble is her shunpo...which she can barely use in bankai mode....it considerably slows her...having to carry that bazooka and all... she is formidable in shikai but i doubt a captain will sit quitely and get hit by a shunpo comboed shikai..... she may hit first but the after math is her arm being freezed to a frost bite... and she needs 2 hits too... so i doubt soi fong can win against Hitsu

No one here is saying that Soi Fon should go Bankai in this fight.

I'm not sure what you mean when you say she may hit first but not connect on the second. She's the fastest captain, which basically means she can speed blitz anyone, and with a hax Shikai to boot, I'd say she could win over a lot of people with pretty consistent results. She's easily as fast as Yoroichi, and even her incomplete Shunko was impressive.

This fight seems like it'd be the type to end in under a minute. Soi Fon gets a two hit kill, or Hitsu uses his Ice Flower Yumichika ripoff attack and kills Soi Fon because as far as I can tell it's essentially impossible to dodge. Thing is, in the millisecond that the snow starts to fall, Soi Fon could kill him, who knows, maybe they'd both die that way cause she'd get touched afterwards :p

Giving it to Soi Fon though.

Raizen
November 24, 2010, 11:48 AM
I think it is relatively difficult if not impossible to speed blitz a captain, unless the target is komamura or the one doing the speed blitz is yamamoto. It is true that soifon is fast, but nothing indicates that hitsu is slow. So while she may get hits on him, I don't see her speed blitzing him as everyone here says. Furthermore, she would have to hit at the same spot, which hitsu can use to his advantage.

His ice should be able to slow her down a bit. His bankai also provides him armor somewhat. I would think if soiofn gets a hit on the ice, hitsu can either discard the ice or create more ice armor to protect that spot.

I think hitsu is very underrated in these forums. His strength is quite formidable. His techniques have a wide range and he has so many techniques to draw from. I like soifon, but i could see hitsu winning more actually. His zanpaktou is very versatile and he has that whole ice clone thing. Without the need to hold back, he can release his whole power from the start instead of waiting for his flowers to die down

Omiem
November 24, 2010, 04:23 PM
I think it is relatively difficult if not impossible to speed blitz a captain, unless the target is komamura or the one doing the speed blitz is yamamoto. It is true that soifon is fast, but nothing indicates that hitsu is slow. So while she may get hits on him, I don't see her speed blitzing him as everyone here says. Furthermore, she would have to hit at the same spot, which hitsu can use to his advantage.
http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-chapter-157-page-15.html
http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-chapter-157-page-17.html
http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-chapter-158-page-5.html

Takahashi
November 24, 2010, 05:21 PM
I think it is relatively difficult if not impossible to speed blitz a captain, unless the target is komamura or the one doing the speed blitz is yamamoto. It is true that soifon is fast, but nothing indicates that hitsu is slow. So while she may get hits on him, I don't see her speed blitzing him as everyone here says. Furthermore, she would have to hit at the same spot, which hitsu can use to his advantage.

His ice should be able to slow her down a bit. His bankai also provides him armor somewhat. I would think if soiofn gets a hit on the ice, hitsu can either discard the ice or create more ice armor to protect that spot.

I think hitsu is very underrated in these forums. His strength is quite formidable. His techniques have a wide range and he has so many techniques to draw from. I like soifon, but i could see hitsu winning more actually. His zanpaktou is very versatile and he has that whole ice clone thing. Without the need to hold back, he can release his whole power from the start instead of waiting for his flowers to die down

I'm not saying that the fight would be ended by a speed blitz, but she's undoubtedly faster than hitsugaya, she can create clones, and her shikai is ridiculously cheap. I'm not hating on hitsu, in fact, I like him a lot. Thing is, he's inexperienced, and his fight with halibel showed us that he gets weaker the longer he stays in bankai, that's not good. And while hitsu has the one usable ice clone, soi fon is the captain of the assassination squad, she'll have a much bigger bag of tricks than him, and will be much less likely to be fooled the way halibel was.

Hitsu's control of the weather is definitely powerful, but he must have to do something to use it (ie make himself open in one way or another) and because soi fon has the speed advantage, and is trained as an assassin, she can capitalize on it.
[hr]
I'd also like to point out that if any one is underrated on these forums, it's the k man! Quit hating on him. :(

Random101
November 24, 2010, 06:00 PM
Thing is, he's inexperienced, and his fight with halibel showed us that he gets weaker the longer he stays in bankai, that's not good.
... What? If anything he gets stronger the longer he goes at it, as he has more water to draw from. Unless you're talking about him randomly deciding to use Tenso Jurrin at the halfway mark, and even then the line doesn't say much in all honesty.

Takahashi
November 24, 2010, 06:10 PM
... What? If anything he gets stronger the longer he goes at it, as he has more water to draw from. Unless you're talking about him randomly deciding to use Tenso Jurrin at the halfway mark, and even then the line doesn't say much in all honesty.

He said that because more than half of the petals were gone that he wouldn't have to worry about his teammates. That very heavily implies that his power weakens over time when the petals disappear.

Random101
November 24, 2010, 06:30 PM
Not really, not with several ways to take it. Frankly unless there's a noted weakness in his spiritual power (As in the direct opposite of what happened to Ikkaku), I'd heavily doubt it. Because his limit reset when he went up against Aizen again later. If his power decreases that doesn't make any sense.

Jackk
November 24, 2010, 07:22 PM
Not really, not with several ways to take it. Frankly unless there's a noted weakness in his spiritual power (As in the direct opposite of what happened to Ikkaku), I'd heavily doubt it. Because his limit reset when he went up against Aizen again later. If his power decreases that doesn't make any sense.

Well, it was first stated that the flowers represented a countdown to his immature Bankai.

http://www.mangafox.com/manga/bleach/v24/c208/12.html
http://www.mangafox.com/manga/bleach/v24/c208/13.html
http://www.mangafox.com/manga/bleach/v24/c208/14.html

But then also in his fight with Harribel, Hitsugaya is also thinking to himself, (as seen by the flashback panels in the link that I'll list below) of how he's not sure that he can keep from killing everyone around. Then, Hitsugaya also says: "My powers aren't yet fully mature. I'm well aware of that. So I didn't want to use it in Bankai mode. I wasn't sure I could control it.

http://www.mangafox.com/manga/bleach/v42/c359/5.html

Then, Hitsugaya says: ...But the ice behind me is about half gone, so I don't think I need to worry about that anymore.

http://www.mangafox.com/manga/bleach/v42/c359/6.html

As Takahashi stated, that very heavily implies that his power weakens over time when the ice petals disappear.

You can't compare Hitsugaya to Ikkaku's Bankai; they are very different. Ikkaku's actually has a charging dragon that was explicitly stated that when it fills up, it achieves maximum power. Not all Bankai's are the same, and Hitsugaya's definitely does not have that thing that Ikkaku's had. You're not going to convince anyone there.

His "limit reset" when he went up against Aizen later was due to him not being in Bankai mode for some significant time. Therefore, it probably resets after a while of resting his Bankai. I don't know, you go get with Kubo if you don't think that it makes sense.

Broken_Wing
November 24, 2010, 07:32 PM
Not really, not with several ways to take it. Frankly unless there's a noted weakness in his spiritual power (As in the direct opposite of what happened to Ikkaku), I'd heavily doubt it. Because his limit reset when he went up against Aizen again later. If his power decreases that doesn't make any sense.

Well Id say regular attacks are the same power regardless of petal count however when it comes to HH since its weather related, he used it with half of the petals so it would be more controllable.

The fact is weve havent seen a what a full-powered HH can do....except for this:



http://i204.photobucket.com/albums/bb57/Jonas64/Hitsugaya_HH_small-2-1.jpg


When the petals reset its somewhat like a Vizard mask limit. They can resummon the mask after a cool down period, but if they use it to the limit they would be severly exhausted.

Similar to his bankai. Exerting Reiatsu x10 for extended periods of time would fatigue him, but since he has naturally high reiatsu he can go bankai multiple times.

Random101
November 24, 2010, 08:07 PM
Yeah, and again, that doesn't suggest he's getting weaker, it suggests nothing specific without more information. His no need to worry about it could be based on a number of factors other than him getting weaker. Like soon he's going to have to start worry about his bankai dropping and him being completely screwed, or the opposite, to name the most obvious ones. The problem I have with that assumption is that it can reset without any kind of refuel after an interval of time. That doesn't suggest the petals actually indicate he's getting weaker just by sustaining it (frankly the opposite happens given what we actually do know about him and the more water available), them resetting at all wouldn't make any sense if that was the case, that suggests it's a time limit of some kind.

And I'm definitely not suggesting it's the same as Ikkaku's, as that'd be stupid in all kinds of ways, I'm saying no one was noting him weakening over time in any case in which this sort of thing happens, especially the Shawlong case in which he only had two left. We know such a case can be detected because Ikkaku's case does the inverse of that exactly.

Waking_Dreamer
November 24, 2010, 08:54 PM
This is what ive wrote about the topic in another forum think what you want from it, not so much that ALL his powers weaken due to petal count but more of how the ONLY HH weve seen was nerfed:

They indicate his reiatsu level in bankai...so when the petals disappear it means his reiatsu is at a point where he needs to power down...from bankai. The higher number of petals means the more reiatsu he has to preform more powerful techniques...

In context Shawlong says:


In order to achieve bankai, it is necessary to have a vast amount of spiritual power. It must be diffiuclt for a captain to remain in the state of bankai for such a long time...



Also Hitsu says:

"Its one of Hyōrinmaru's basic powers but at the same time one of his strongest. Thats why I didnt want to use this power in bankai. I wasnt confident that I could control who I cut down.

But due to the fact that half of the ice flowers behind me are gone...it seems that concern will prove unnecessary...."

Hitsugaya doesnt mention anything about speed or time ONLY power and control. If the flowers were only a time indicator why would he be talking about it?

Thats basically all about reiatsu/power. And it fits with the statement I made previously, that the petals "countdown" the amount of "reiatsu" Hitsugaya has in maintaining his bankai. Its not like his bankai has an attitude and decides after a certain amount of time...it doesnt want to play anymore...

Ofc, its not concrete proof but consider:

1. Shawlong statement supports the petals as a reiatsu (power) indicator and not just a countdown.
2. The pages have flashback panels of Hitsugaya warning Kira of his zans 12km AOE.
3. Hitsugaya's continual talk of fearing of unable to control his zan from hurting his allies because it is a strong attack.
4. Then with the petals disappearing and Hitsugaya getting less concerned about using the attack.
5. Then when launching the attack was able to successfully only target Harribel

Bonus points: (though perhaps trivial), the anime team actually elaborated on Hitsugaya's fear of hitting his allies and ephasised how he lost energy specifically so that he could launch the attack. Not becuase he was running out of time...he actually waited till his petals evaporated and then confidently used the technique. Its baiscally what is from the panels just a bit more scenes about it to fill the episode time.

The only really question is what is 100% HH like?

Jackk
November 24, 2010, 09:21 PM
This is what ive wrote about the topic in another forum think what you want from it, not so much that ALL his powers weaken due to petal count but more of how the ONLY HH weve seen was nerfed:

They indicate his reiatsu level in bankai...so when the petals disappear it means his reiatsu is at a point where he needs to power down...from bankai. The higher number of petals means the more reiatsu he has to preform more powerful techniques...



Right, I don't think that his physical strikes and such weaken, unless he's just physically tired but then that wouldn't be due to the ice petals...well, unless the reitsu consumption physically tires him too?

At any rate, I'm more inclined to believe that it's his ice techniques that get nerfed as his petals go down. It seems like a reasonable assumption given that his HH ice/weather technique was obviously nerfed as he waited to have half of his petals. (He went from 12 petals to 6 petals)




The only really question is what is 100% HH like?

What if it's along the lines of Yamas EJ technique or possibly stronger ? :blink

Although, maybe if that's the case he may die by losing complete control over such massive ice/weather technique which probably would consume everyone in the area, including the user of the technique. (much like Yama's EJ)

Waking_Dreamer
November 24, 2010, 09:43 PM
At any rate, I'm more inclined to believe that it's his ice techniques that get nerfed as his petals go down. It seems like a reasonable assumption given that his HH ice/weather technique was obviously nerfed as he waited to have half of his petals. (He went from 12 petals to 6 petals)

Spammable moves like ice dragons are probably neglible in the amount of reaitsu used. I mean as Random101 said, the greater moisture in the atmosphere the stronger Hitsugaya ice attacks would be. And if those attacks are nerfed over time, I think they are compensated or even over-compensated in power by the moisture Hitsugaya can draw from the environemnt during the end of a lengthy battle.

The only perhaps noticable difference would be HH, which has a pre-requisite of using mositure in the clouds. A 12-petal reaitsu would obviouly draw in more moiture than 6-petals and therefore have a larger/powerful/faster(who knows) attack - which Hitsugaya was unsure he could control.



What if it's along the lines of Yamas EJ technique or possibly stronger ? :blink

Although, maybe if that's the case he may die by losing complete control over such massive ice/weather technique which probably would consume everyone in the area, including the user of the technique. (much like Yama's EJ)

Well both their zans parallel each other but Yama's power is at least 2050+ years more developed than Hitsugaya's - but post training Hitsugaya will hopefully have a more solid showing of his bankai.

Jackk
November 24, 2010, 10:04 PM
Spammable moves like ice dragons are probably neglible in the amount of reaitsu used. I mean as Random101 said, the greater moisture in the atmosphere the stronger Hitsugaya ice attacks would be. And if those attacks are nerfed over time, I think they are compensated or even over-compensated in power by the moisture Hitsugaya can draw from the environemnt during the end of a lengthy battle.

The only perhaps noticable difference would be HH, which has a pre-requisite of using mositure in the clouds. A 12-petal reaitsu would obviouly draw in more moiture than 6-petals and therefore have a larger/powerful/faster(who knows) attack - which Hitsugaya was unsure he could control.

Well, I suppose that's a perfectly reasonable assumption there, with him drawing from the environment to at least compensate. So, Ok... fair enough.



Well both their zans parallel each other but Yama's power is at least 2050+ years more developed than Hitsugaya's - but post training Hitsugaya will hopefully have a more solid showing of his bankai.

Well that's true. Although I'm comparing a fully powered bankai HH to a shikai EJ. Perhaps Yama can do an even stronger EJ in Bankai? I don't think his EJ would be limited to shikai. Granted who knows what his Bankai really is, though one can speculate that it's probably more powerful fire techniques and fire power etc.

Even having Yama's shikai EJ as more powerful, it seems to me like they may be similar in nature, as in: we know that Yama was even going to sacrifice himself using EJ and that it would have even taken down the people around that area as well. Then, a fully powered HH, according to Hitsu, could be something that would extend to a significant radius engulfing other people(this is basically implied), and since he even says that he would lose control etc.. it may be that, at full power, the technique would take down its user too. Granted this is all speculation though. Who knows.

Primecut
November 25, 2010, 04:37 AM
I suspect she could pull off the same move she did against the tiger guy. Hitsuguya has been blitzed before by folks slower than Soifon. Why would he get any more leeway versus a fast captain?

Broken_Wing
November 25, 2010, 08:42 AM
I suspect she could pull off the same move she did against the tiger guy. Hitsuguya has been blitzed before by folks slower than Soifon. Why would he get any more leeway versus a fast captain?

No way. You just put Hitsugaya on the level of VC if you think she can two hit him like that faccion tiger - because thats what tier the tiger is on...VC level at most.

What slower people have speedblitz Hitsugaya? Aizen? The person who speedblitz all 4 captains including Soifon at once...?

Takahashi
November 25, 2010, 09:57 AM
No way. You just put Hitsugaya on the level of VC if you think she can two hit him like that faccion tiger - because thats what tier the tiger is on...VC level at most.

What slower people have speedblitz Hitsugaya? Aizen? The person who speedblitz all 4 captains including Soifon at once...?

lol, have you had the pleasure of talking to Primecut before? He's head of the ridiculous bat shit crazy department here at Mangahelpers.

I'm trying to think now too, has anyone really speedblitzed Hitsu? Unless you count Halibel's initial resurrection attack, don't think so.

I'd like to give some more leeway to Hitsugaya, but as far as I can tell, his only real method to win here is to use the "ice flower control of the weather move".

Wait, I know! Soi Fon goes Bankai, doesn't tie herself up, Hitsu controls the weather, and she fires the rocket killing Hitsu and the resulting explosion sends her backwards all the way to the Bahamas so she doesn't have to worry about the cold :amuse

shaheer
November 25, 2010, 10:04 AM
ya thats what i was trying to draw...fine she wont go bankai.. hitsu definitely will... at bankai stage he cant be hit from the back...i mean hyorinmaru covers the back with wings and what not..... the only way is frontal attack and hitsu will be with his sword there... and ice waves + ice will significantly slow her... even if she manages a first hit... he has the greater chance of freezing her hand and other part of the body for that matter.. if you get her hand and legs she is practically useless... she has to go banka... that will be even more problematic for her.....
and he is a captain... agenius one to boot.. he may not be an excel in shunpo...but that doesnt mean that he is lousy at it.. so much so that she will hit him2X and that too on the smae spot and he cant do any thing... i mean He is a captain..the youngest one.. and thats not for show..
as its a fight betwn captains... i surmise they will know abt each other ...... it will be seriously unlikely for Hitsu if he doest plan any thing... he is a genius after all..
on the other hand Soi fong is dim wit... and obnoxious so will think more like i am in Sp squad ...i live to kill and need no plan etc... i just cant see Hitsu being blasted by a d*nce like her.....
.and he aint slow.. he must be at a good speed.... not superb

and remember Ichigo could actually block Byakuya without learning shunpo.... i seriously doubt that hitsu will be just at the mercy of her speed with nothing to do when he also knows shunpo and frontal attacks are the only ones she can do(due to wings in his back)

Takahashi
November 25, 2010, 11:19 AM
ya thats what i was trying to draw...fine she wont go bankai.. hitsu definitely will... at bankai stage he cant be hit from the back...i mean hyorinmaru covers the back with wings and what not..... the only way is frontal attack and hitsu will be with his sword there...

How exactly is Hitsu invulnerable to back attacks? She's an assassin! Nothing's better than being behind your opponent, she could stab him in the back of the head. Even if we assume that his ice wings somehow magically protect him from Suzumabachi, Soi Fon is high up in the hand to hand fighting department, she could just kick him in the back of the head.


and ice waves + ice will significantly slow her... even if she manages a first hit... he has the greater chance of freezing her hand and other part of the body for that matter.. if you get her hand and legs she is practically useless... she has to go banka... that will be even more problematic for her.....

Ice waves? Hitsugaya has to consciously use his ice attacks, it's not like the cold radiates off of him to such a degree that Soi Fon would actually slow down at all. Also, Hitsugaya freezing her would mean he'd have to be able to attack her faster than she could dodge, which I don't see happening very often. No way will she go Bankai, she only did against Barragan because everything else was 100% useless, this is not the case with Hitsu.


and he is a captain... agenius one to boot.. he may not be an excel in shunpo...but that doesnt mean that he is lousy at it.. so much so that she will hit him2X and that too on the smae spot and he cant do any thing... i mean He is a captain..the youngest one.. and thats not for show..

He's a captain, so that means that Soi Fon is incapable of hitting him twice despite being a captain herself? Also, being the youngest captain is not an advantage, it's a disadvantage, he's inexperienced, it's the reason for him not being stronger than the senior captains and has been mentioned on several occasions.

Soi Fon almost killed Yoroichi with Suzumabachi several times, are you saying because Hitsugaya has a decent Shunpo that Soi Fon's Shikai is useless even though someone much faster had a lot of difficulty?


as its a fight betwn captains... i surmise they will know abt each other ...... it will be seriously unlikely for Hitsu if he doest plan any thing... he is a genius after all..
on the other hand Soi fong is dim wit... and obnoxious so will think more like i am in Sp squad ...i live to kill and need no plan etc... i just cant see Hitsu being blasted by a d*nce like her.....
.and he aint slow.. he must be at a good speed.... not superb

Wha....What? I think you misunderstood the word "genius", when relating to Hitsugaya. It has nothing to do with intelligence, and everything to do with potential. Also, where do you base this idea that Soi Fon is a complete idiot?


and remember Ichigo could actually block Byakuya without learning shunpo.... i seriously doubt that hitsu will be just at the mercy of her speed with nothing to do when he also knows shunpo and frontal attacks are the only ones she can do(due to wings in his back)

Shunpo is not the same as reaction time and foresight, Hitsugaya is not invincible in the back, and you can't deny that Soi Fon is faster than Hitsu. In a fight where 2 tiny cuts can kill you, speed counts for a lot more than you're giving it credit for.

Random101
November 25, 2010, 01:42 PM
The problem is it's not two tiny cuts, but two tiny cuts that absolutely must be in the exact same location. Against an opponent whose covered with defensive ice for the most part and with her using a weapon that's not so good defensively, particularly when compared with the crap he could easily throw at her in close range where it's harder to dodge easily.

Granted her speed is such a degree that even with that he's having a rough time, but this is why I specifically rated the battle as close to the point it could easily go either way. Soifon's fast yes, but unlike Yoruichi Hitsugaya actually has ways to block or even divert one of her pokes.

On Blitzing, Hitsugaya has been blitzed by Aizen, but frankly Aizen can blitz virtually everyone save Yamamoto even without KS, and arguably did the same to Soifon too, albeit an exhausted and pissed off Soifon.

Darkp
November 25, 2010, 01:44 PM
Shunpo is not the same as reaction time and foresight, Hitsugaya is not invincible in the back, and you can't deny that Soi Fon is faster than Hitsu. In a fight where 2 tiny cuts can kill you, speed counts for a lot more than you're giving it credit for.

I disagree , I think hitsugaya really has decent chance to block soi fon shunpo if a noob shikai ichigo(who is half death and did not even achive bankai ) can block shunpo from byakuya to the back .

http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-chapter-117-page-12.html
http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-chapter-117-page-13.html
http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-chapter-117-page-14.html

Hystzen
November 25, 2010, 02:51 PM
lol, have you had the pleasure of talking to Primecut before? He's head of the ridiculous bat shit crazy department here at Mangahelpers.

I'm trying to think now too, has anyone really speedblitzed Hitsu? Unless you count Halibel's initial resurrection attack, don't think so.

I'd like to give some more leeway to Hitsugaya, but as far as I can tell, his only real method to win here is to use the "ice flower control of the weather move".

Wait, I know! Soi Fon goes Bankai, doesn't tie herself up, Hitsu controls the weather, and she fires the rocket killing Hitsu and the resulting explosion sends her backwards all the way to the Bahamas so she doesn't have to worry about the cold :amuse

guessing the head of bat crazy department means by people blitzing him is Shawlong and luppi ..harribel.

they out speed him but not speedblitzed him

still i think soi fon does beat histu..

but we know histus bankai changes every fight so he can win by the power of greyskull fan service

Takahashi
November 25, 2010, 06:07 PM
The problem is it's not two tiny cuts, but two tiny cuts that absolutely must be in the exact same location. Against an opponent whose covered with defensive ice for the most part and with her using a weapon that's not so good defensively, particularly when compared with the crap he could easily throw at her in close range where it's harder to dodge easily.

I never said it was good defensively, in fact it's terrible, I was saying that she would have to simply be faster than him. Considering she's fully capable of Shunpo-ing in and out in rapid succession even to the point of creating clones is the reason why I said more often than not, Hitsugaya wouldn't be able to hit her before she could get away.

As far as the ice goes, she's an assassin, it's basically in her job description to target unarmored parts of the body, and because where on the body she hits is the same damage-wise, she's still got plenty to poke at.


Granted her speed is such a degree that even with that he's having a rough time, but this is why I specifically rated the battle as close to the point it could easily go either way. Soifon's fast yes, but unlike Yoruichi Hitsugaya actually has ways to block or even divert one of her pokes.

I agree with this, but the Yoruichi example was more that it demonstrated that Soi Fon was actually faster than her, which is incredibly impressive. I realize Yoruichi had literally nothing to protect herself, but the fact that she was actually being outclassed in a match of speed and CQC is what matters.


On Blitzing, Hitsugaya has been blitzed by Aizen, but frankly Aizen can blitz virtually everyone save Yamamoto even without KS, and arguably did the same to Soifon too, albeit an exhausted and pissed off Soifon.

Halibel was able to as well (ice clone was necessary). I never said Hitsugaya was easy to speed blitz or anything, but that doesn't change the fact that Soi Fon is significantly faster than him.


I disagree , I think hitsugaya really has decent chance to block soi fon shunpo if a noob shikai ichigo(who is half death and did not even achive bankai ) can block shunpo from byakuya to the back .

http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-chapter-117-page-12.html
http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-chapter-117-page-13.html
http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-chapter-117-page-14.html

What are you disagreeing to? You must have misunderstood. I was replying to shaheer who attributed Shunpo to blocking a strike. I simply pointed out that they were two very different things and that Hitsugaya's ability to use Shunpo doesn't factor in to whether he can be speed blitzed or not.

Hystzen
November 27, 2010, 09:05 AM
easy way to work out speed.

yourichi out sped byakuya while carrying ichigo (she well out sped him even used a trick on him to rub it in) people claim byakuya is faster than most captains even hitsu

soi fon kept up or even out sped yourichi in SS. (granted she not been human for a while and was trying to lure soi fon away from execution area )

so soi fon can out speed byakuya who out speeds histu.

hence soi fon is faster than histu..but speed doesnt mean she won.

she also experiance

shaheer
November 27, 2010, 09:20 AM
they wont be running in laps to decide who is the victorious one...
she has a disadvantage her tech is to hit ppl... i scarcely think a captain Will be speed blitzed....like that ..aizen and old man dun count
when you will enter in close proximity hitsu being small and its the area around him i am fairly sure that he can withstand soifonngs attacks.... and even if he gets hit once he can freeze her hand just after he gets a hit... that way she is handicapped...
and hitsu can send a shower of blizzard founting from him... that will be like infinite ice blocks all around him ... i doubt that soifong could zap in with her full speed... she will be heavily impeded...sunpo is not teleportation its moving fast...if there are projectiles in every inches surrounding hitsu then she will be impeded no other way..... that means she wont be able to use her shunpo at full....
and youroichi didnt use her sword..ie if they connected Yoro gets a butterfly... until she used her ulti tech.. i forgot the name..
and as for her shunpo...she was pretty slow then because she wasnt human for sth like 10 yrs?? she herself said that she wasnt what she was....
and likei said if they connected yoro get a butterfly...here hitsu an parry her moves with his swords ....both are completely diff senario

Takahashi
November 28, 2010, 06:19 PM
they wont be running in laps to decide who is the victorious one...
she has a disadvantage her tech is to hit ppl... i scarcely think a captain Will be speed blitzed....like that ..aizen and old man dun count

Yes, THEY won't be running in laps, Soi Fon will be, around Hitsugaya. You're putting so much emphasis on speed blitzing you don't realize that a speed advantage is much more than simply a speed blitz.



when you will enter in close proximity hitsu being small and its the area around him i am fairly sure that he can withstand soifonngs attacks.... and even if he gets hit once he can freeze her hand just after he gets a hit... that way she is handicapped...

Considering Soi Fon can connect twice in the blink of an eye, there's no way Hitsugaya could instantly freeze her. Seriously, what do you think is faster, Soi Fon doing two pokes, or Hitsugaya attacking her with ice? We've never seen Hitsugaya freeze someone simply by being close to them, the ice only comes into play from a conscious effort on his part, which means he's going to have to be able to attack as fast as her, which he can't.


and hitsu can send a shower of blizzard founting from him... that will be like infinite ice blocks all around him ... i doubt that soifong could zap in with her full speed... she will be heavily impeded...sunpo is not teleportation its moving fast...if there are projectiles in every inches surrounding hitsu then she will be impeded no other way..... that means she wont be able to use her shunpo at full....

Why are you making things up now? When has Hitsugaya ever created an impenetrable dome of ice around him? Even if for whatever random reason he CAN do that, what makes you think turtle-ing is an advantage for Hitsugaya? He's a close range fighter, encasing himself does nothing for him offensively. And can ice can stop Shunko? I see a Sasuke-Gaara repeat coming up if he does that.



and youroichi didnt use her sword..ie if they connected Yoro gets a butterfly... until she used her ulti tech.. i forgot the name..
and as for her shunpo...she was pretty slow then because she wasnt human for sth like 10 yrs?? she herself said that she wasnt what she was....
and likei said if they connected yoro get a butterfly...here hitsu an parry her moves with his swords ....both are completely diff senario

The whole "she got slower because of being out of the game for a while" is irrelevant, we've never seen her fight prior to her transforming back, so what exactly can you compare it to? Nothing.

Again, like Hystzen said, she completely outclassed Byakuya in speed quite a while before her fight with Soi Fon. So by your logic, she got even faster than then, because she'd been human for longer.

Broken_Wing
November 28, 2010, 09:26 PM
Again, like Hystzen said, she completely outclassed Byakuya in speed quite a while before her fight with Soi Fon. So by your logic, she got even faster than then, because she'd been human for longer.

I wouldnt say outclassed Byakuya. She used her cicada tech to slip by him. And then ran flat out to stop him from following.

If she completely outclassed him, then she could have taken him out then and there.

Takahashi
November 28, 2010, 09:52 PM
I wouldnt say outclassed Byakuya. She used her cicada tech to slip by him. And then ran flat out to stop him from following.

If she completely outclassed him, then she could have taken him out then and there.

Poor choice of words on my part, I'm just tired of having to make the same general points all the time.

Jackk
November 28, 2010, 09:53 PM
Considering that Yoruichi was out of shape AND she was also carrying Ichigo on her back (and had to protect him) ...yeah, I would say she still outclassed Byakuya, at least in speed/shunpo anyway.

http://www.mangafox.com/manga/bleach/v14/c118/16.html
http://www.mangafox.com/manga/bleach/v14/c118/17.html
http://www.mangafox.com/manga/bleach/v14/c118/18.html
http://www.mangafox.com/manga/bleach/v14/c118/21.html

Yuruichi, herself, said: "to still be able to outrun Byakuya...one person is as many as I can carry."

http://www.mangafox.com/manga/bleach/v14/c120/7.html

EDIT:

I do think that Soifon is faster than Byakuya too. <-- assuming that's true, then:

If people claim that Bykuya is faster than Hitsugaya, then Soifon has to be faster than Hitsugaya, no?

Takahashi
November 28, 2010, 09:56 PM
Considering that Yoruichi was out of shape AND she was also carrying Ichigo on her back (and had to protect him) ...yeah, I would say she still outclassed Byakuya, at least in speed/shunpo anyway.

http://www.mangafox.com/manga/bleach/v14/c118/16.html
http://www.mangafox.com/manga/bleach/v14/c118/17.html
http://www.mangafox.com/manga/bleach/v14/c118/18.html
http://www.mangafox.com/manga/bleach/v14/c118/21.html

Yuruichi, herself, said: "to still be able to outrun Byakuya...one person is as many as I can carry."

http://www.mangafox.com/manga/bleach/v14/c120/7.html

Oh, maybe not poor choice of words :amuse

At any rate, enough about Yoro Vs Byaku. Fact is that she was faster than Byakuya, and Soi Fon was faster than her. We can probably agree that Byakuya is faster than Hitsugaya, so Soi Fon is many levels above him.

Broken_Wing
November 28, 2010, 10:33 PM
Well if I may....I dont see anywhere in the manga where Byakuya's shunpo is actually faster than Hitsugayas.

Let me explain, when Byakuya was going shunpo against shunpo with shikai Ichigo, they were dead even. I dont see how Shikai Ichigo would shunpo faster than Hitsugaya. What Byakuya has over Hitsugaya is techniques like cicada and that he likes using shunpo techniques like seki. I dont really see a difference in base shunpo though.

Also about the Yoruichi speech. I never interepreted that way. I mean seriously Yoruichi is a supero hero she can topple over giants like Yammy and get flung into buildings with minimal/superfical damage.

The fact that she could only carry Ichigo who is like what? 70kg max. Is a testament of not how super fast she is (but she is fast) but how close Byakuya is to her base shunpo. Which makes sense since she was out of shape - and had to go flat out, just to escape....

But thats my interpretation.

tldr: Soifon base shunpo levels above Hitsugaya in base shunpo? I say milage may vary...

Takahashi
November 28, 2010, 10:42 PM
Well if I may....I dont see anywhere in the manga where Byakuya's shunpo is actually faster than Hitsugayas.

It's an assumption based on feats, obviously there's no definitive proof. Like we can assume that Byakuya is better at Kido than Hitsugaya, that might not be true, but Hitsu has never shown the same level Byakuya has, same thing with Shunpo.


Let me explain, when Byakuya was going shunpo against shunpo with shikai Ichigo, they were dead even. I dont see how Shikai Ichigo would shunpo faster than Hitsugaya. What Byakuya has over Hitsugaya is techniques like cicada and that he likes using shunpo techniques like seki. I dont treally see a difference in base shunpo.

Since when did Shikai Ichigo know Shunpo?


Also about the Yoruichi speech. I never interepreted that way. I mean seriously Yoruichi is a supero hero she can topple over giants like Yammy and get flung into buildings with minimal/superfical damage.

The fact that she could only carry Ichigo who is like what? 70kg max. Is a testament of not how super fast she is (but she is fast) but how close Byakuya is to her base shunpo. Which makes sense since she was out of shape - and had to go flat out, just to escape....

Every Shinigami in Bleach is basically superhuman, and no it doesn't make sense that carrying someone would result in them severely slowing down, but that doesn't matter. It's very obviously said that carrying him was detrimental to her escape in some way. Kubo has a lot of holes in his manga, but if we're discussing it, anything that's been said can be used as proof in an argument.


But thats my interpretation.

tldr: Soifon base shunpo levels above Hitsugaya in base shunpo? I say milage may vary...


I say you're ridiculously wrong :amuse

Soi Fon is the fastest captain. It was said that if Soi Fon couldn't escape something, no one in the Gotei 13 could (if that includes Yama, then damn...). So yes, Soi Fon's Shunpo and speed in general undoubtedly are better than Hitsugaya's.

Broken_Wing
November 28, 2010, 11:05 PM
Every Shinigami in Bleach is basically superhuman, and no it doesn't make sense that carrying someone would result in them severely slowing down, but that doesn't matter. It's very obviously said that carrying him was detrimental to her escape in some way. Kubo has a lot of holes in his manga, but if we're discussing it, anything that's been said can be used as proof in an argument.

Im not saying holding Ichigo didnt slow her down. Im saying that Ichigo as the limit to have her faster than Byakuya isnt THAT impressive. That shows how close Byakuya was to her - i.e he wasnt outclassed.


It's an assumption based on feats, obviously there's no definitive proof. Like we can assume that Byakuya is better at Kido than Hitsugaya, that might not be true, but Hitsu has never shown the same level Byakuya has, same thing with Shunpo.

Since when did Shikai Ichigo know Shunpo?

Exactly, its an assumption. You can have your assumption, people can have others. The fact that Hitsugaya was stated as a genius/prodigy, and that he was already planned to be a given a spot in the one of the Gotei squads even before he graduated the academy - I dont see kido being a problem for him to use.

Shikai Ichi was proudly showing his shunpo abilities against Byakuya before he went bankai.


I say you're ridiculously wrong :amuse
Soi Fon is the fastest captain. It was said that if Soi Fon couldn't escape something, no one in the Gotei 13 could (if that includes Yama, then damn...). So yes, Soi Fon's Shunpo and speed in general undoubtedly are better than Hitsugaya's.

Thats opinion. Not fact. The same person also said Soifon could lift the limit and proceed to kickass...The dude didnt even know there were other VC/shinigami standing by at the barrier blocks. That guy is definetly not in the loop when it comes to knowledge of the greater Gotei 13. I take that statement with a grain of salt to say the least.

Takahashi
November 28, 2010, 11:47 PM
Im not saying holding Ichigo didnt slow her down. Im saying that Ichigo as the limit to have her faster than Byakuya isnt THAT impressive. That shows how close Byakuya was to her - i.e he wasnt outclassed.

Umm okay. I wasn't really pushing that idea in the first place. I simply said that Jack (I think) had a point because Yoroichi herself said that she could only get away while holding one person. Personally I think it's more of a testament to Byakuya's speed than anything considering Yoroichi is pretty much considered the epitome of speed.




Exactly, its an assumption. You can have your assumption, people can have others. The fact that Hitsugaya was stated as a genius/prodigy, and that he was already planned to be a given a spot in the one of the Gotei squads even before he graduated the academy - I dont see kido being a problem for him to use.

Shikai Ichi was proudly showing his shunpo abilities against Byakuya before he went bankai.

................................

I never said Byakuya's Kido was better than Hitsugaya's, I said that Hitsugaya has never SHOWN us anything close to Byakuya's level. Just like Shunpo, Byakuya has shown us more impressive feats, not to mention he was trained by Yoroichi. And until Hitsugaya does, it's perfectly acceptable to assume Byakuya's better at it when using them comparatively for fight outcomes. If your assumption that Hitsugaya's speed = Byakuya's speed is based purely on the fact that he's a prodigy, that doesn't hold up well.

If you want to be completely 100% proof based, then Yoroichi isn't faster than Hitsugaya either, because all we ever see with anyone's Shunpo is lines and then they're somewhere they weren't.

Omeada:
http://www.ourmanga.com/Bleach/331/Bleach%20331%2016

Yoroichi:
http://www.mangafox.com/manga/bleach/v14/c118/17.html

Notice a difference? All Shunpo's look the same. If you're going to use the logic of "Byakuya's never been said to be faster than Hitsugaya, and there's no visual proof in the manga". Then I can say the same about Omeada and Yoroichi. How do we KNOW that Yoroichi is faster than Omeada? Feats. Byakuya has shown more impressive feats of Shunpo than Hitsugaya has, therefore we can conclude with confidence that he is faster (or at least has better Shunpo) than Hitsugaya.


Oh, and Ichigo never once used Shunpo in Shikai, he jumped once to dodge, that's it.


Thats opinion. Not fact. The same person also said Soifon could lift the limit and proceed to kickass...The dude didnt even know there were other VC/shinigami standing by at the barrier blocks. That guy is definetly not in the loop when it comes to knowledge of the greater Gotei 13. I take that statement with a grain of salt to say the least.

Kubo has to use characters to speak for him. There's no narration that would have said that, and no other character could have said it because none of them were related to the fight like Omeada was. Omeada may not know the tactics and workings of the Gotei 13, but he sure as hell knows his division, and his captain.

Whether you want to believe it or not is up to you, but fact is that there's evidence to support the statement that Soi Fon is the fastest captain, and until something contradictory is said by someone else, there's no reason not to believe it.

shaheer
November 29, 2010, 12:04 AM
Why are you making things up now? When has Hitsugaya ever created an impenetrable dome of ice around him?
i didnt say that ...or atleast i didnt imply that... hitsu can throw blizzards of ice around him very possible for strongest ice type zanpakto ....lol what good will a dome of ice do to him...he himself will be imprisoned...... how in the world are you supposed to run at full speed if there is ice infront of youin mid air...
[hr]
and HItsu is said to be a prodigy and the youngest captain...i doubt that the other coatains werent skeptic abt such a young guy to be in the same rank...so they must have tested him well .... i mean thats natural.. akid to be a captain.. they should have tested him with care... and bankai is not the only crieteria to be a captain...kido shunpo and etc must have been tested...i doubt that they would make sb a captain with those skills only at a decent level...
but those are my inferences you are always free to differ

Takahashi
November 29, 2010, 02:10 AM
i didnt say that ...or atleast i didnt imply that... hitsu can throw blizzards of ice around him very possible for strongest ice type zanpakto ....lol what good will a dome of ice do to him...he himself will be imprisoned...... how in the world are you supposed to run at full speed if there is ice infront of youin mid air...
<hr noshade size="1">

Must I quote you? It'd be nice if you were aware of your own posts.


and hitsu can send a shower of blizzard founting from him... that will be like infinite ice blocks all around him ... i doubt that soifong could zap in with her full speed... she will be heavily impeded...sunpo is not teleportation its moving fast...if there are projectiles in every inches surrounding hitsu then she will be impeded no other way..... that means she wont be able to use her shunpo at full....

Your English is mangled, but your post clearly contradicts what you're saying now.


and HItsu is said to be a prodigy and the youngest captain...i doubt that the other coatains werent skeptic abt such a young guy to be in the same rank...so they must have tested him well .... i mean thats natural.. akid to be a captain.. they should have tested him with care... and bankai is not the only crieteria to be a captain...kido shunpo and etc must have been tested...i doubt that they would make sb a captain with those skills only at a decent level...
but those are my inferences you are always free to differ

...........Tested him with care?

Anyway, all you're saying is that Hitsugaya is worthy of being a captain. I NEVER SAID HE WASN'T, of course he is.

Are you actually going to give a real reason as to how he can beat Soi Fon? Saying he's a prodigy and that he can do things he's never shown in the manga are not real reasons for your thinking. I don't care if you disagree, but I don't even understand your reasoning.

Random101
November 29, 2010, 02:23 AM
Actually Ichigo has used Shunpo multiple times in shikai. The beginning of he Byakuya fight in fact (The most memorable scene of this is Ichigo atop the arc suddenly appearing before the three Vice Captains chasing Renji and Rukia in an instant, and then slaughtering them). The dude's right, him and Ichigo were dead even, Byakuya even complimented him on it.

Not that it particularly matters, I'd still rate Byakuya faster, if not by a lot, and Soifon at least a level above that, to the point that Hitsugaya experiences extreme trouble trying to just hit the girl.

Takahashi
November 29, 2010, 04:21 AM
Actually Ichigo has used Shunpo multiple times in shikai. The beginning of he Byakuya fight in fact (The most memorable scene of this is Ichigo atop the arc suddenly appearing before the three Vice Captains chasing Renji and Rukia in an instant, and then slaughtering them). The dude's right, him and Ichigo were dead even, Byakuya even complimented him on it.

Not that it particularly matters, I'd still rate Byakuya faster, if not by a lot, and Soifon at least a level above that, to the point that Hitsugaya experiences extreme trouble trying to just hit the girl.

Ahh, you're right. I was lazy and started re-reading after he'd done all that and begun fighting just before going Bankai, no wonder I missed it.

Broken_Wing
November 29, 2010, 04:38 AM
Just like Shunpo, Byakuya has shown us more impressive feats, not to mention he was trained by Yoroichi. And until Hitsugaya does, it's perfectly acceptable to assume Byakuya's better at it when using them comparatively for fight outcomes. If your assumption that Hitsugaya's speed = Byakuya's speed is based purely on the fact that he's a prodigy, that doesn't hold up well.

Im not leaving it at the prodigy fact dont worry...


Byakuya has shown more impressive feats of Shunpo than Hitsugaya has, therefore we can conclude with confidence that he is faster (or at least has better Shunpo) than Hitsugaya.

Well if you consider his base shunpo, Byakuya was tied with post-bankai, shikai Ichigo and that level of Shunpo was not enough to blitz Post-bankai Renji alone (though still faster than him), and with Histugaya's shunpo feats such as this:

http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-chapter-371-page-5.html
http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-chapter-371-page-6.html
http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-chapter-371-page-7.html

Im going to put forth not including Squad 2 techs, their shunpo level is pretty similar or not enough to be putting Byakuya at any real advantage if say Hitsugaya were to battle him. In other words Byakuya and Histugaya are on the same tier of base shunpo. My opinion of course.

Long Range
Now considering that Hitsugaya can fire ice dragons from long to mid range with his icicles as well:
http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-chapter-371-page-5.html

Mid range
and deal with close-mid range with his ice arcs:
http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-chapter-371-page-7.html

Close Range
and that his bankai provides 90% coverage to his back : http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-chapter-232-page-5.html
(Not to mention his swinging tail which he has no probelm attacking with either)

and independent protection for the side with his wings:
http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-chapter-232-page-7.html

He has a much narrow area of his body to worry about with Soifons shikai. Which is actually a line down the front of his body from his head down the front part of his torso...interestingly that is where his zanpakuto blade can be comfortably found, when held in a ready position. Also where he is packing Ryusken.

Close-range reaction
and ofc showing CQ reaction feats to be in the top 5 shown in the manga so far:

http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-chapter-132-page-12.html
http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-chapter-132-page-13.html

Interestingly again its happens to be a pointy weapon heading to his face coming at him from a sneak attack.

You put all these little bits together and they kind of perfectly compliment each other...coming from long range distance all the way down to close quarters. Histugaya has something to greet Soifon with on the way. Now with one of these missing I would say Soifon has the edge, but Im with Random101 where this battle is virtually a flip of the coin.

Im obviously not saying Soifon cant win, but by no means does she have to either...

Thats what I got. You dont have to agree, but I layed out my thoughts clearly and step by step. Im content.

Truu
November 29, 2010, 11:24 AM
Thats what I got. You dont have to agree, but I layed out my thoughts clearly and step by step. Im content.


Hitsugaya avatar

Yes, you are content.

Raizen
November 29, 2010, 01:52 PM
http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-chapter-157-page-15.html
http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-chapter-157-page-17.html
http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-chapter-158-page-5.html
That was a youruichi who was out of practice and one that was surprised by the growth of soifon. As the fight dragged on and youruichi begins to get her momentum going, there is no speed-blitzing
[hr]

I'm not saying that the fight would be ended by a speed blitz, but she's undoubtedly faster than hitsugaya, she can create clones, and her shikai is ridiculously cheap. I'm not hating on hitsu, in fact, I like him a lot. Thing is, he's inexperienced, and his fight with halibel showed us that he gets weaker the longer he stays in bankai, that's not good. And while hitsu has the one usable ice clone, soi fon is the captain of the assassination squad, she'll have a much bigger bag of tricks than him, and will be much less likely to be fooled the way halibel was.

Hitsu's control of the weather is definitely powerful, but he must have to do something to use it (ie make himself open in one way or another) and because soi fon has the speed advantage, and is trained as an assassin, she can capitalize on it.
[hr]
I'd also like to point out that if any one is underrated on these forums, it's the k man! Quit hating on him. :(
Soifon definitely has the speed advantage. but in terms of speed, halibel was also faster than hitsu and looked how that turned out.

In his fight with halibel, we found out he purposely waited for his flowers to melt so that his attacks would not be so massive that it would affect his teammates. In this battle, he does not have to worry about such a thing. That means he is free to release all the ice and weather power he has at his disposal. Soifon may get hits in on hitsu, but she has to get the hit on the exact SAME spot. Hitsu has shown to have very quick reflexes. Add that into his ability to create ice armor and discard and create more armor would allow him to shed the injury he took from an attack and keep on going (in a sense).

Soifon being from the assassin squad gives her some tricks, like the double team technique she used :p, but in the end they weren't really clones, just illusions.
_________
And i am inferring "k man" as kenpachi?! I think kenpachi is a beast. And he has a high chance of beating either hitsu or soifon to me

Broken_Wing
November 29, 2010, 03:20 PM
Yes, you are content.

How about making posts that actually matter and add to the dicussion - rather than one line posts that are usually BS and pointless...

:nospam

Takahashi
November 29, 2010, 03:45 PM
Im not leaving it at the prodigy fact dont worry...

Well if you consider his base shunpo, Byakuya was tied with post-bankai, shikai Ichigo and that level of Shunpo was not enough to blitz Post-bankai Renji alone (though still faster than him), and with Histugaya's shunpo feats such as this:

http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-chapter-371-page-5.html
http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-chapter-371-page-6.html
http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-chapter-371-page-7.html

Im going to put forth not including Squad 2 techs, their shunpo level is pretty similar or not enough to be putting Byakuya at any real advantage if say Hitsugaya were to battle him. In other words Byakuya and Histugaya are on the same tier of base shunpo. My opinion of course.

My point before was that all Shunpo's look the same, so comparing them by visual proof is impossible. I wasn't saying that it was fact that Byakuya's Shunpo was faster, but there's more backing for the Byakuya side than there is Hitsugaya.

Yoroichi is faster than both of them, it's quite impressive that Byakuya was able to force her to use cicada to get away. Hitsugaya on the other hand doesn't have the same Shunpo resume, that's all.



Long Range
Now considering that Hitsugaya can fire ice dragons from long to mid range with his icicles as well:
http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-chapter-371-page-5.html

Mid range
and deal with close-mid range with his ice arcs:
http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-chapter-371-page-7.html

Close Range
and that his bankai provides 90% coverage to his back : http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-chapter-232-page-5.html
(Not to mention his swinging tail which he has no probelm attacking with either)

and independent protection for the side with his wings:
http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-chapter-232-page-7.html

He has a much narrow area of his body to worry about with Soifons shikai. Which is actually a line down the front of his body from his head down the front part of his torso...interestingly that is where his zanpakuto blade can be comfortably found, when held in a ready position. Also where he is packing Ryusken.

He's definitely got a wide range of attacks, no one's denying that. The question is, are any of those a game ender? Soi Fon has one of the cheapest Shikai's in the manga, there's no doubt that the two hits can kill Hitsugaya. Hitsugaya does not want the fight to drag on by chucking ice at something he can't hit with likely a lot more stamina than him. On the ice armor subject, I think Soi Fon can answer just fine with Shunko if need be. She apparently practices it all the time, and considering her and Yoro are on good terms again, I'd bet good money it's perfected. Speculation, but not unfounded.

I think his best bet is to use HH because as far as I can tell, you can't really dodge it. Thing is, he's going to be open, like I said before, I could see them both dying if that happens.


Close-range reaction
and ofc showing CQ reaction feats to be in the top 5 shown in the manga so far:

http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-chapter-132-page-12.html
http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-chapter-132-page-13.html

Interestingly again its happens to be a pointy weapon heading to his face coming at him from a sneak attack.

I can guarantee you that Soi Fon is much faster than Gin's sword. Yes, Hitsugaya can handle himself up close, but that is not a position that he wants to be in against someone who does nothing but close quarters fighting. She's also got plenty more assassination tricks that he's never seen.


You put all these little bits together and they kind of perfectly compliment each other...coming from long range distance all the way down to close quarters. Histugaya has something to greet Soifon with on the way. Now with one of these missing I would say Soifon has the edge, but Im with Random101 where this battle is virtually a flip of the coin.

Im obviously not saying Soifon cant win, but by no means does she have to either...

Thats what I got. You dont have to agree, but I layed out my thoughts clearly and step by step. Im content.

I know Hitsugaya's got a well rounded arsenal and they compliment each other well. But Soi Fon is a specialist in a single aspect. While Hitsugaya can throw things at her from all ranges, once she gets in close, Hitsugaya is NOT in a good position.

All in all, I'd leave it up to two things. Soi Fon wins if she gets in close and uses clones to two hit insta kill. Hitsugaya wins if he uses HH before she's able to close the distance.


Oh and Raizen, I was talking about Komamura. See! He is so underrated that people think of Kenpachi first :(

ninjabot
November 29, 2010, 04:04 PM
Well if you consider his base shunpo, Byakuya was tied with post-bankai, shikai Ichigo and that level of Shunpo was not enough to blitz Post-bankai Renji alone (though still faster than him), and with Histugaya's shunpo feats such as this:

http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-...71-page-5.html
http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-...71-page-6.html
http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-...71-page-7.html

Im going to put forth not including Squad 2 techs, their shunpo level is pretty similar or not enough to be putting Byakuya at any real advantage if say Hitsugaya were to battle him. In other words Byakuya and Histugaya are on the same tier of base shunpo. My opinion of course.


Except Renji spent years under Byakuya specifically training to counter Byakuya's senka, had access to Shunpo, and never got into an actual close range sword fight. He blocked one attack. And as for Ichigo, he had both shunpo and a speed enhancing zanpakuto. It took that much of a speed increase from a captain level opponent to match/exceed Byakuya's speed. Hitsugaya just has the shunpo and ice utsusemi.


Byakuya's faster alright. Fast enough that Hitsugaya's not pressing any close range offensive. And with Soi Fon being faster than he, the same is true.


I think his best bet is to use HH because as far as I can tell, you can't really dodge it. Thing is, he's going to be open, like I said before, I could see them both dying if that happens.


If that's the attack he used to freeze Halibel, why do you think it's unavoidable? Halibel didn't attempt to dodge, she attempted to use her ability to counter it (pointed her sword at the attack). A shunpo would do nicely in that situation. Doesn't even look as if he can guide the attack.

Takahashi
November 29, 2010, 04:08 PM
If that's the attack he used to freeze Halibel, why do you think it's unavoidable? Halibel didn't attempt to dodge, she attempted to use her ability to counter it (pointed her sword at the attack). A shunpo would do nicely in that situation. Doesn't even look as if he can guide the attack.

One touches you and it looks like you're finished. I always assumed the whole damn sky rained 'em down. If it's only in a select small area and you can Shunpo out of it, then Hitsu's in trouble.

Broken_Wing
November 29, 2010, 04:11 PM
^ Yeah, Im not denying it would be trickier for him with the battle at close range but he still has a one-shot technique even then - that could very well end the game.

http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-chapter-210-page-15.html
http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-chapter-210-page-15.html

In other words hes not at her mercy at all when shes in close. Especially since Soifon statistically has one of the lowest defense out of all the captains. Shunko is said to buffer blunt impact hits but still I dont know if she could withstand one of those.

It fine if you think she will win.

I just wanted to point out that its ridiculous if people think she going to instant 2-hit kill Hitsu like that tiger dude. The fraccion who had no option to but to fight in close and no noticable defense but his bloody claw hands....

ninjabot
November 29, 2010, 04:14 PM
We saw a hole open in the clouds... then we saw a crapload of snowflakes fall from that one hole. I sincerely doubt he can just spam that attack (he said he didn't have to wait, for moisture, but didn't say he can do it multiple times).

So yeah. He'd need to lure her in the air, and somehow prevent her from shunpoing. OR staying close to him (wouldn't want all those snowflakes to fall on himself would he?)

And even with the lowest defense, she has one of the highest stamina ratings. She doesn't need to tank anything when she can run circles around him with nary a bead of sweat. And Hitsugaya has a time limit at that, making her greater stamina even more of an advantage.

Takahashi
November 29, 2010, 04:16 PM
^ Yeah, Im not denying it would be trickier for him with the battle at close range but he still has a one-shot technique even then - that could very well end the game.

http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-chapter-210-page-15.html
http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-chapter-210-page-15.html

In other words hes not at her mercy at all when shes in close. Especially since Soifon statistically has one of the lowest defense out of all the captains. Shunko is said to buffer blunt impact hits but still I dont know if she could withstand one of those.

It fine if you think she will win.

I just wanted to point out that its ridiculous if people think she going to instant 2-hit kill Hitsu like that tiger dude. The fraccion who had no option to but to fight in close and no noticable defense but his bloody claw hands....

Funny how you disregard one fraccion in Soi Fon's defense but use another as a way of bolstering Hitsugaya.....

Hystzen
November 29, 2010, 04:17 PM
We saw a hole open in the clouds... then we saw a crapload of snowflakes fall from that one hole. I sincerely doubt he can just spam that attack (he said he didn't have to wait, for moisture, but didn't say he can do it multiple times).

So yeah. He'd need to lure her in the air, and somehow prevent her from shunpoing. OR staying close to him (wouldn't want all those snowflakes to fall on himself would he?)

you know you first person i seen in ages who thinks like me bout HH

most people since kubo pulled out that troll attack everytime Histu is in a VS theard says he just uses HH and wins....

it not like he used it on a moving target

plus would soi fon give him the chance or any other person..does it take time to activate ..we know nothing but since that move was shown people assume histu wins just coz of that attack

Broken_Wing
November 29, 2010, 04:25 PM
Except Renji spent years under Byakuya specifically training to counter Byakuya's senka, had access to Shunpo, and never got into an actual close range sword fight. He blocked one attack. And as for Ichigo, he had both shunpo and a speed enhancing zanpakuto. It took that much of a speed increase from a captain level opponent to match/exceed Byakuya's speed. Hitsugaya just has the shunpo and ice utsusemi.


Byakuya's faster alright. Fast enough that Hitsugaya's not pressing any close range offensive. And with Soi Fon being faster than he, the same is true.

Not at all imo. Shikai Ichigo has no speed enhancing zan abilities. That was pure base shunpo that he matched Byakuya dead even with.

Also Renji was training to try and surpass Byakuya but simply didnt have the reiatsu to counter seki. He could barely see that move pre-bankai but after had enough power to move his muscles to counter what his eyes could see.

That seki thing is like an assassination technique. Speed and striking to end the battle in one go. Renji countered that no problem - his reaction timing was simply at a level to do so. If they engaged in an actual sword fight well thats another story because than swordsmanship comes into play, and not purely about speed and reaction.

Speedblitz was not possible on someone like Renji with just Byakuya's shunpo - I am of the thought that Hitsugaya is above that of Renji's speed.
[hr]

Funny how you disregard one fraccion in Soi Fon's defense but use another as a way of bolstering Hitsugaya.....

Are you saying Soifon can instant kill Hitsugaya like what she did to that fraccion?

The fraccion had no defense or range attacks like Hitsugaya - but go ahead and think that way if you want...

I was pointing out Ryusuken could be used defensively to prevent Soifon for going in so easily because it would cause a lot of damage in on strike much more than a normal slash.

Takahashi
November 29, 2010, 04:29 PM
Are you saying Soifon can instant kill Hitsugaya like what she did to that fraccion?

The fraccion had no defense or range attacks like Hitsugaya - but go ahead and think that way if you want...

I was pointing out Ryusuken could be used defensively to prevent Soifon for going in so easily because it would cause a lot of damage.

You called it a game ender and one shot technique. Meaning it would kill Soi Fon.

I never said Soi Fon would embarrassingly kill Hitsu the same way she did to that Fraccion, but you very heavily implied that Hitsugaya could do to Soi Fon what he did to Shawlong.

Broken_Wing
November 29, 2010, 04:37 PM
You called it a game ender. Meaning it would kill Soi Fon.

I never said Soi Fon would embarrassingly kill Hitsu the same way she did to that Fraccion, but you very heavily implied that Hitsugaya could do to Soi Fon what he did to Shawlong.

Thats because you said that HH was most likely the game ender and at close range implied Hitsugaya couldnt potentially end Soifon in one technique like her. Especially since theres the whole Hitsugaya is open while setting up HH.

As the theme of my posts Hitsugaya can meet Soifon at all ranges and at close range 2-hit kill vs Ryusuken is what Im getting at. I personally dont think HH would do it in the battle anyway thats why i never brought it up in previous posts.

What im trying to say Hitsugaya can still be a threat at close range and not simply Hitsugaya uses HH. GG

I dont want cause any misunderstandings...

Takahashi
November 29, 2010, 04:47 PM
Thats because you said that HH was most likely the game ender and at close range implied Hitsugaya couldnt potentially end Soifon in one technique like her. Especially since theres the whole Hitsugaya is open while setting up HH.

That's because HH is his best move, and I did think it could hit and kill Soi Fon. Although Ninjabot may have convinced me otherwise now.


As the theme of my posts Hitsugaya can meet Soifon at all ranges and at close range 2-hit kill vs Ryusuken is what Im getting at. I personally dont think HH would do it in the battle anyway thats why i never brought it up in previous posts.

What im trying to say Hitsugaya can still be a threat at close range and not simply Hitsugaya uses HH. GG

I dont want cause any misunderstandings...

Fair enough, I must have misinterpreted you.

However, I hope you're not saying that Hitsugaya can actually be on par with Soi Fon when it comes to close quarters. Like I said, she's a specialist, and if she's up close, she definitely has the advantage over someone who's a more balanced in all categories captain.

The reason I've brought up HH is more because that'd be a great technique to use when Soi Fon isn't in her desired range.

Broken_Wing
November 29, 2010, 04:59 PM
That's because HH is his best move, and I did think it could hit and kill Soi Fon. Although Ninjabot may have convinced me otherwise now.



Fair enough, I must have misinterpreted you.

However, I hope you're not saying that Hitsugaya can actually be on par with Soi Fon when it comes to close quarters. Like I said, she's a specialist, and if she's up close, she definitely has the advantage over someone who's a more balanced in all categories captain.

The reason I've brought up HH is more because that'd be a great technique to use when Soi Fon isn't in her desired range.

Thats fine.

HH is a strong move but you could have a whole debate in intself of what it can do. The problem is we've only ever seen a nerfed version and one where Hitsugaya was carefully aiming it at one target. He could potentially open up the whole sky - he does have the most powerfu ice/snow zanpakuto...but Kubos saving that up for a later power up? who knows?

Basically what Im saying is - at close range Hitsugaya can give a Soifon a fight and not be trumpled over like La Tiger or whatever. Soifon has the edge no doubt, but wings, armor, reaction and Ryusuken - he'll put up a fight...

Takahashi
November 29, 2010, 05:05 PM
Thats fine.

HH is a strong move but you could have a whole debate in intself of what it can do. The problem is we've only ever seen a nerfed version and one where Hitsugaya was carefully aiming it at one target. He could potentially open up the whole sky - he does have the most powerfu ice/snow zanpakuto...but Kubos saving that up for a later power up? who knows?

True enough, maybe we should make a topic for it :amuse


Basically what Im saying is - at close range Hitsugaya can give a Soifon a fight and not be trumpled over like La Tiger or whatever. Soifon has the edge no doubt, but wings, armor, reaction and Ryusuken - he'll put up a fight...

Of course he's not as bad as the Tiger. His wings and ice definitely cover up a lot of points, and I'm not really confident that Suzumabachi is able to break through them. The counter I see though is Shunko. Even though Shunko is a question mark, we know it's powerful, but we don't know to what extent. For now, I'd say she'd still be able to knock around Hitsugaya with it and bust up his wings pretty good, but Suzumabachi is still what I think gives her a win more often than not.

Waking_Dreamer
November 29, 2010, 05:29 PM
True enough, maybe we should make a topic for it :amuse

Theres a Hitsu Bankai training thread in the bleach manga I started a while ago. People can speculate how hell change after Kubo put him in official training mode.



Of course he's not as bad as the Tiger. His wings and ice definitely cover up a lot of points, and I'm not really confident that Suzumabachi is able to break through them. The counter I see though is Shunko. Even though Shunko is a question mark, we know it's powerful, but we don't know to what extent. For now, I'd say she'd still be able to knock around Hitsugaya with it and bust up his wings pretty good, but Suzumabachi is still what I think gives her a win more often than not.

Hitsugaya's Ice wings seems to be a foot think in some places.

Her Shunko against his Ice wing would be interesting. We know it can take the blunt hit from one of Luppis tentacles, but maybe weaker to slices like Harribels cero.

I think the main point is the wing is like a buffer that Soifon would be striking instead of Hitsu's body directly. I m sure she could crack pieces off his wing but thats what gives Hitsu the chance to strike at her with his longer range sword.

It would be interesting to see none the less.

Takahashi
November 29, 2010, 07:20 PM
Hitsugaya's Ice wings seems to be a foot think in some places.

Her Shunko against his Ice wing would be interesting. We know it can take the blunt hit from one of Luppis tentacles, but maybe weaker to slices like Harribels cero.

I think the main point is the wing is like a buffer that Soifon would be striking instead of Hitsu's body directly. I m sure she could crack pieces off his wing but thats what gives Hitsu the chance to strike at her with his longer range sword.

It would be interesting to see none the less.

It only held up against one tentacle however, and fell easily to all of them, I'm skeptical as to how durable it really is. It's clearly a desperation defense when he doesn't have time to dodge, and Shunko seems pretty powerful.

Thing is, I don't see Soi Fon trying to chip at his wings, as an assassin, she's going to go for a vital part to guarantee her two hit kill. I see a lot of Shunpo, clones, and various assassination techs preventing Hitsu from connecting with his own attacks.

Omiem
November 29, 2010, 07:56 PM
I personally don't see how HH can catch Soifon in time. The radius of the attack is probably around 200 yards at most. Someone like Soifon can shunpo out of that distance with ease. Only reason it got Harribel is because she was trying to counter it. I don't think Soifon's the type of person who would do that.


That was a youruichi who was out of practice and one that was surprised by the growth of soifon. As the fight dragged on and youruichi begins to get her momentum going, there is no speed-blitzing
An out of practice Yoruichi who out paced Byakuya, which actually refutes your previous point of the difficulty to blitz a captain class shinigami.

So you think Yoruichi was caught off guard by Soifon? Well take a look at this panel again. http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-chapter-157-page-17.html
As you can see, Soifon just released her shikai, and Yoruichi is already aware of it. She then attempts to escape but failed. Now show me evidence of Yoruichi getting caught off guard, because I don't see it.
All I see is Yoruichi getting outclassed by Soifon in terms of speed.

Primecut
November 29, 2010, 08:30 PM
Soifon's bankai can just solo Hitsuguya. How is the kid going to tank a nuclear missile when he couldnt even block Luppi's tendril assault? That attack was no where near the nuclear level and it busted him up. Imagine what a hydrogen bomb to the kid's face would do....because Soifon is a shunpoing nuclear level opponent who moves faster than Youruichi. And we all know that Soifon had a better teacher (Yoruichi). Who trained this kid? All we saw was he played around with Hinamori as a kid while Soifon was bulking up with Yoruichi. I'd give this to Soifon 90% of the time with shikai only, but Bankai is an instant win for her.

Jackk
November 29, 2010, 08:56 PM
I personally don't see how HH can catch Soifon in time. The radius of the attack is probably around 200 yards at most. Someone like Soifon can shunpo out of that distance with ease. Only reason it got Harribel is because she was trying to counter it. I don't think Soifon's the type of person who would do that.


An out of practice Yoruichi who out paced Byakuya, which actually refutes your previous point of the difficulty to blitz a captain class shinigami.

So you think Yoruichi was caught off guard by Soifon? Well take a look at this panel again. http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-chapter-157-page-17.html
As you can see, Soifon just released her shikai, and Yoruichi is already aware of it. She then attempts to escape but failed. Now show me evidence of Yoruichi getting caught off guard, because I don't see it.
All I see is Yoruichi getting outclassed by Soifon in terms of speed.

Well in all fairness, not only was Yoruichi out of shape (I think that Yoruichi was in better shape more recently when she fought Aizen in FKT with Urahara and Isshin), but I also don't think Yoruichi was taking Soifon very seriously at the start, as in: not trying to hurt/kill Soifon. You can see that base Yoruichi was just running away from Shikai soifon... trying to avoid being hit in the same spot twice with suzumebachi. Granted I do think that Soifon displayed an edge in speed back then in SS arc, though I don't think that Soifon was that much superior in speed... otherwise she would have gotten the 2-hit in the same spot on Yoruichi, but she couldn't. Yoruichi defended well in that regard, in my opinion.

Further, once Yoruichi got serious with her own superior Shunkou, she pretty much dominated soifon. And Soifon, herself, more or less admitted that Yoruichi was still overall superior.

http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-chapter-159-page-4.html
http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-chapter-159-page-5.html
http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-chapter-159-page-6.html
http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-chapter-159-page-7.html

Either way, I think we both agree that Soifon must be quite faster than Hitsugaya. Better speed/shunpo/clones etc... so she definitely has the advantage there for this fight. And I'm pretty certain that Soifon is better than Hitsugaya at close range combat. Hitsugaya's best strategy would be to try to keep the fight at long range as much as possible, but Soifon would try to pressure him and push the fight to short range and perhaps attempt to end it with superior speed and her Shikai.

Hitsugaya's HH is dangerous but he said that he doesn't use it at full power because he cannot control it, so he would likely wait til he has half of his ice petals. Therefore, Soifon has a chance to end the fight before Hitsu can use HH. And even if Hitsu gets to use HH, there's a chance that Soifon could shunpo away and avoid it, maybe.

I don't want to make it sound as if Hitsu had no chances at all, but I think I am leaning towards Soifon winning this fight though.

Omiem
November 29, 2010, 11:18 PM
Well in all fairness, not only was Yoruichi out of shape (I think that Yoruichi was in better shape more recently when she fought Aizen in FKT with Urahara and Isshin), but I also don't think Yoruichi was taking Soifon very seriously at the start, as in: not trying to hurt/kill Soifon. You can see that base Yoruichi was just running away from Shikai soifon... trying to avoid being hit in the same spot twice with suzumebachi. Granted I do think that Soifon displayed an edge in speed back then in SS arc, though I don't think that Soifon was that much superior in speed... otherwise she would have gotten the 2-hit in the same spot on Yoruichi, but she couldn't. Yoruichi defended well in that regard, in my opinion.
You have to consider the reason why Yoruichi ran in the first place is because she thought the Homonkas would eventually go away. Once Soifon revealed that they were everlasting, Yoruichi actually came back and attacked.
http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-chapter-158-page-11.html
http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-chapter-158-page-12.html

I will agree though that Yoruichi probably wasn't trying to kill Soifon.
But at the same time, I also don't think Soifon was trying to kill Yoruichi as well seeing how she wanted to prove herself a stronger warrior instead of focusing on the kill. It's already obvious by looking at this panel.
http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-chapter-157-page-15.html
As you can see, Soifon could've easily cut Yoruichi's head off if she wanted to. But she releases her shikai instead. Do you think Soifon would do the same to a foreign enemy? I doubt it.
So in my opinion, it wasn't really that Soifon was unable to connect a 2 hit kill, but more of her not wanting to. I mean, it could be possible that she was holding back her 2 hit kill by directly aiming at Yoruichi's face instead of her chest(which had a Homonka) in these panels.
http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-chapter-158-page-14.html
http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-chapter-158-page-15.html
After all, if Soifon was aiming at the chest, then Yoruichi would've had a Homonka on her arms since she was trying to block her chest with them.
So in my opinion, Soifon was holding back against Yoruichi to some extent as well.

Jackk
November 29, 2010, 11:59 PM
You have to consider the reason why Yoruichi ran in the first place is because she thought the Homonkas would eventually go away. Once Soifon revealed that they were everlasting, Yoruichi actually came back and attacked.
http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-chapter-158-page-11.html
http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-chapter-158-page-12.html

I will agree though that Yoruichi probably wasn't trying to kill Soifon.
But at the same time, I also don't think Soifon was trying to kill Yoruichi as well seeing how she wanted to prove herself a stronger warrior instead of focusing on the kill. It's already obvious by looking at this panel.
http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-chapter-157-page-15.html
As you can see, Soifon could've easily cut Yoruichi's head off if she wanted to. But she releases her shikai instead. Do you think Soifon would do the same to a foreign enemy? I doubt it.
So in my opinion, it wasn't really that Soifon was unable to connect a 2 hit kill, but more of her not wanting to. I mean, it could be possible that she was holding back her 2 hit kill by directly aiming at Yoruichi's face instead of her chest(which had a Homonka) in these panels.
http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-chapter-158-page-14.html
http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-chapter-158-page-15.html
After all, if Soifon was aiming at the chest, then Yoruichi would've had a Homonka on her arms since she was trying to block her chest with them.
So in my opinion, Soifon was holding back against Yoruichi to some extent as well.

Fair enough, I do see your point. Although, if we want to get technical, Soifon was in Shikai while Yoruichi was simply using...well... nothing but her bare hands lol

And as I showed in my previous post, once Yoruichi got serious with her Shunkou, she pretty much dominated Soifon. Therefore, yes perhaps Soifon could have cut off Yoruichi's head off had she been serious and trying to kill her from the beginning, I'll give you that... but wouldn't the opposite be true as well? In other words, had Yoruichi not been understimating Soifon, and had Yoruichi been seriously trying to kill Soifon from the start, she could have used her superior shunkou and finish her off too. I think neither of them were trying to kill each other. Yoruichi still dominated in the end due to her superior shunkou though, that's how I see it.

Anyway, that's a bit off-topic lol... I think we both agree that Soifon will be superior to Hitsugaya in speed and close combat and therefore could finish him that way if Hitsugaya fails to keep his distance or makes a wrong move. Soifon's 2-hit kill would certainly work on hitsu if she can get him with that.

Raizen
November 30, 2010, 04:06 PM
An out of practice Yoruichi who out paced Byakuya, which actually refutes your previous point of the difficulty to blitz a captain class shinigami.

So you think Yoruichi was caught off guard by Soifon? Well take a look at this panel again. http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-chapter-157-page-17.html
As you can see, Soifon just released her shikai, and Yoruichi is already aware of it. She then attempts to escape but failed. Now show me evidence of Yoruichi getting caught off guard, because I don't see it.
All I see is Yoruichi getting outclassed by Soifon in terms of speed.
The only thing that caught byakuya off guard was cicada. Once youruichi used that, byakuya lost interest and did not chase after her. She used a specific technique to dodge byakuya, it wasn't a feat of speed. Its like me saying byakuya was faster than zomari since he used cicada to escape zomarri. But even though I love byakuya, zomarri was clearly faster

Youruichi was surprised. What is your point? She was still able to avoid a fatal blow, thus she was not blitzed. And i never stated that soifon was slow compared to youruichi. i am saying, when it comes to a battle between the captains, chances of a captain speed blitzing another on guard captain will NOT happen (that is if it is not komamura or if its yama who is using the shuunpo)
[hr]
No one here is claiming that soifon is not faster than hitsu or more adept in hand to hand combat. However, her speed can be neutralized by his ice. Hitsu has shown that he knows how to play his battles. In his battle with halibel, halibel was faster and physically stronger, that was why hitsu was able to create such a distance between them. He can do the same here.

Even if the fighters gets close to one another, his ice dragon is a pretty huge attack that can catch soifon, not to mention his skilled use of his chain. Hitsu isn't defenseless in close combat. That is a failed misconception. First off, soifon's shuunko is still not perfected. Furthermore, hitsu's ice was able to block off angry and charged up halibel's slash so I think it would be great armor against shuunko

Omiem
November 30, 2010, 06:09 PM
The only thing that caught byakuya off guard was cicada. Once youruichi used that, byakuya lost interest and did not chase after her. She used a specific technique to dodge byakuya, it wasn't a feat of speed. Its like me saying byakuya was faster than zomari since he used cicada to escape zomarri. But even though I love byakuya, zomarri was clearly faster
What do you mean that's the only thing? http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-chapter-118-page-17.html
As you can see, Yoruichi made a clean blitz, which already refutes your entire point of the difficulty to blitz a captain.

Anyways, Utsusemi probably takes a tremendous amount of speed to perform when it comes to replacing yourself with a tangible object/clone without your enemy noticing. Byakuya didn't noticed Yoruichi performing Utsusemi, therefore he got blitzed to some extent. Of course, you could argue that Utsusemi is involved with some kind of super natural power, but there's no solid proof. In my opinion, the fact that it's called Way of Onmitsu is telling me that the technique is most likely associated with speed, but in a unique way. So I'd say it is a speed feat for Yoruichi, but to some extent.

I agree that Zommari is clearly faster, but it doesn't mean he's all of the sudden immune to being blitzed(Which is what we're arguing about). Even the fastest person in the world can be blitzed by a person slower than him/her. It all has to do with how well their perception of speed is.

Youruichi was surprised. What is your point? She was still able to avoid a fatal blow, thus she was not blitzed. And i never stated that soifon was slow compared to youruichi. i am saying, when it comes to a battle between the captains, chances of a captain speed blitzing another on guard captain will NOT happen (that is if it is not komamura or if its yama who is using the shuunpo)
You've yet to provide evidence of Yoruichi being surprise/caught off guard. Well, I can't really blame you since I previously explained that Yoruichi was already aware of Soifon's shikai.

So your telling me it doesn't register as a blitz since Soifon wasn't able to kill Yoruichi? So your basically telling me this isn't a blitz. http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-chapter-361-page-14.html

Anyways, the definition of a blitz(in my book at least), is when a person defeats their victim's perception of speed. The victim however has to at least have their eyes on their blitzer before the actual blitz is initiated. Otherwise, it would be considered as a sneak attack instead of a blitz. The panel I showed you before meets all those requirements. Yoruichi was clearly blitzed, and at the same time, got owned by Soifon's speed. Reason why I say owned is because not only did Soifon defeat Yoruichi's perception of speed, but she also literally out paced her in physical speed. Anyone can blitz a stationary target, but Soifon blitzed a moving target whose known as the goddess of flash. I don't think you realize how difficult that is.

No one here is claiming that soifon is not faster than hitsu or more adept in hand to hand combat. However, her speed can be neutralized by his ice. Hitsu has shown that he knows how to play his battles. In his battle with halibel, halibel was faster and physically stronger, that was why hitsu was able to create such a distance between them. He can do the same here.

Even if the fighters gets close to one another, his ice dragon is a pretty huge attack that can catch soifon, not to mention his skilled use of his chain. Hitsu isn't defenseless in close combat. That is a failed misconception. First off, soifon's shuunko is still not perfected. Furthermore, hitsu's ice was able to block off angry and charged up halibel's slash so I think it would be great armor against shuunko
Well this isn't what we're arguing, so let me quote you in case you don't remember.

I think it is relatively difficult if not impossible to speed blitz a captain, unless the target is komamura or the one doing the speed blitz is yamamoto. It is true that soifon is fast, but nothing indicates that hitsu is slow. So while she may get hits on him, I don't see her speed blitzing him as everyone here says. Furthermore, she would have to hit at the same spot, which hitsu can use to his advantage.
The bold is what we're arguing since that's how I previously quoted you in the first place. Now, is it really impossible to blitz a captain? As far as I know, characters have done it dozens of times in the Bleach series.

Waking_Dreamer
November 30, 2010, 07:15 PM
What do you mean that's the only thing? http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-...8-page-17.html
As you can see, Yoruichi made a clean blitz, which already refutes your entire point of the difficulty to blitz a captain.

To be honest I wouldnt consider that a blitz. The suprised expression on Byakuya's face is what youre referring to right?

Thats pretty much negated by him already standing in the same spot to where Yoruichi flash steps to. He cant have lost Yoruichi's movements if he ended up where she was going. So the panels are more like Byakuya thinking:

"Where'd you go!?"
"lol Kidding! Is that all you got?"

- Proceeds to slash.
- Yoruichi proceeds to use Utsusemi.

Thats usually happens with the suprised expression and "loosing the opponent from your sight" such as these:
http://www.mangafox.com/manga/bleach/v17/c140/15.html
http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-chapter-117-page-13.html

As for Utsusemi, thats a technique different to shunpo. Dont really get the mechanics of it but I always figured its more of a "distraction technique" to leave something physical behind to distract someone from following your movements away from that spot.

In other words you'd use it if they would normally follow your regular shunpo. Not sure if I would considered that a speed blitz either. Im not saying there wont be any examples of captain level speedblitz but that one in particular wouldnt be a good one to choose.

Takahashi
November 30, 2010, 11:45 PM
Any particular reason the Yoroichi and Byakuya thing is still going on?

Soi Fon was as fast, if not faster than Yoroichi

Yoroichi is faster than Byakuya (no, I'm not talking speed blitzes and surprised faces, we just KNOW she's faster, maybe not by a huge gap, but she surely is.)

Byakuya (most of us can probably agree) is faster than Hitsugaya

That's all that's relevant, Soi Fon is several steps ahead of Hitsugaya speed-wise.

Broken_Wing
December 01, 2010, 06:40 AM
Soifon's bankai can just solo Hitsuguya. How is the kid going to tank a nuclear missile when he couldnt even block Luppi's tendril assault? That attack was no where near the nuclear level and it busted him up. Imagine what a hydrogen bomb to the kid's face would do....because Soifon is a shunpoing nuclear level opponent. Bankai is an instant win for her.

FYI - Soifon cant shunpo with her bankai. If she even dared to fire bankai while Hitsu was within 100 meters shed get fried too. Just to clear that up for you.


Who trained this kid? All we saw was he played around with Hinamori as a kid while Soifon was bulking up with Yoruichi.

Hitsugaya was schooling senior students in his first year at the academy, and was being assigned to one of the gotei 13 squads before he even graduated.

Primecut
December 01, 2010, 06:48 AM
FYI - Soifon cant shunpo with her bankai. If she even dared to fire bankai while Hitsu was within 100 meters shed get fried too. Just to clear that up for you.



Well Hitsugaya was schooling senior students in his first year at the academy, and was being assigned to one of the gotei 13 squads before he even graduated.

Since she is at least as fast as Yoruichi she is definitely faster than him and she can get a good distance then snipe him with it. You got any evidence the kid can stop a nuke? Attacks far weaker than the nuclear type have broken his defenses in the past including Luppi's tendrils. It is looking like Soifon outclasses him here.

He may be schooling students but who taught him? Soifon learned from a captain while Hitsuguya has been making it up as he goes along. The kid's bankai isnt even perfected so he has too many gaps before taking on a lethal opponent like her.

Broken_Wing
December 01, 2010, 06:56 AM
Since she is at least as fast as Yoruichi she is definitely faster than him and she can get a good distance then snipe him with it. You got any evidence the kid can stop a nuke? Attacks far weaker than the nuclear type have broken his defenses in the past including Luppi's tendrils. It is looking like Soifon outclasses him here.

He may be schooling students but who taught him? Soifon learned from a captain while Hitsuguya has been making it up as he goes along. The kid's bankai isnt even perfected so he has too many gaps before taking on a lethal opponent like her.

Was it you or someone else who said Old Barry was an idiot when it comes to battle tactics? Do you think Hitsugaya would be so curious about other captains bankai powers, and so arrogant in his own like Espada #2, that he would stay in the same spot before she fires the nuke? Why would Hitsugaya try and tank it in the first place?

Also, last time I checked Kenpachi wasnt taught anything by anyone except to hold his sword with two hands. Are you of all people going to say that the "mid-tier gatekeeper" Kenpachi is not ready to take on Soifon?

And are you saying Soifons bankai is perfected? Or that it leaves her less open then Hitsugaya's?

Takahashi
December 01, 2010, 09:21 AM
Since she is at least as fast as Yoruichi she is definitely faster than him and she can get a good distance then snipe him with it. You got any evidence the kid can stop a nuke? Attacks far weaker than the nuclear type have broken his defenses in the past including Luppi's tendrils. It is looking like Soifon outclasses him here.

He may be schooling students but who taught him? Soifon learned from a captain while Hitsuguya has been making it up as he goes along. The kid's bankai isnt even perfected so he has too many gaps before taking on a lethal opponent like her.

You're calling Soi Fon a lethal opponent? Funny how you trash her in every other matchup topic. You're getting a little too obvious with your trolling Prime.

vizardichigo
December 01, 2010, 12:38 PM
Ok im doing a 180 on what said before. I cant see Soifon winning this fight. Her shunko is underdeveloped and her bankai while powerful is way too big. I think Hitsu could avoid it. her shikai IMO is her only real chance of winning but i just dont think he would make it that easy. He could just play possum get her close then BOOM 1000 year ice prison. Hitus wins. Sorry i changed my POV but ATM i cant see her winning

Truu
December 01, 2010, 01:01 PM
He could just play possum get her close then BOOM 1000 year ice prison. Hitus wins. Sorry i changed my POV but ATM i cant see her winning

So Hitsugaya can avoid Soifon's bankai but Soifon can't avoid the thousand-year prison thingy... :eyeroll

Takahashi
December 01, 2010, 02:04 PM
Ok im doing a 180 on what said before. I cant see Soifon winning this fight. Her shunko is underdeveloped and her bankai while powerful is way too big. I think Hitsu could avoid it. her shikai IMO is her only real chance of winning but i just dont think he would make it that easy. He could just play possum get her close then BOOM 1000 year ice prison. Hitus wins. Sorry i changed my POV but ATM i cant see her winning

I find it hilarious how people bash Soi Fon's Shunko just because it was beaten by a more complete version. What makes everyone think it isn't still incredibly powerful? Kido in combination with an already masterful physical fighting ability should be considered dangerous to most anyone. Until Yoroichi showed her the perfected version, Soi Fon thought hers was complete, and she deemed it powerful enough to beat Yoroichi with. Clearly, even this "underdeveloped" Shunko can still beat the hell out of people. Also, if were on the topic of underdeveloped things, Hitsugaya's the definition. Hell, even he says so.

And playing possum? That's Hitsugaya's winning strategy? Soi Fon is the leader of the assassination squad, don't think she'll be fooled by a kid's acting and one shotted.

Raizen
December 01, 2010, 03:07 PM
What do you mean that's the only thing? http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-chapter-118-page-17.html
As you can see, Yoruichi made a clean blitz, which already refutes your entire point of the difficulty to blitz a captain.

Anyways, Utsusemi probably takes a tremendous amount of speed to perform when it comes to replacing yourself with a tangible object/clone without your enemy noticing. Byakuya didn't noticed Yoruichi performing Utsusemi, therefore he got blitzed to some extent. Of course, you could argue that Utsusemi is involved with some kind of super natural power, but there's no solid proof. In my opinion, the fact that it's called Way of Onmitsu is telling me that the technique is most likely associated with speed, but in a unique way. So I'd say it is a speed feat for Yoruichi, but to some extent.

I agree that Zommari is clearly faster, but it doesn't mean he's all of the sudden immune to being blitzed(Which is what we're arguing about). Even the fastest person in the world can be blitzed by a person slower than him/her. It all has to do with how well their perception of speed is.
Then in the next page, you see byakuya standing right beside youruichi, so 1. he wasn't blitzed and 2. does that mean he blitzed youruichi?

You obviously have a different definition of blitzed that I do. When someone is "blitzed", that person is taken out or in a position where they are vulnerable to being taken out by another.


You've yet to provide evidence of Yoruichi being surprise/caught off guard. Well, I can't really blame you since I previously explained that Yoruichi was already aware of Soifon's shikai.

So your telling me it doesn't register as a blitz since Soifon wasn't able to kill Yoruichi? So your basically telling me this isn't a blitz. http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-chapter-361-page-14.html

Anyways, the definition of a blitz(in my book at least), is when a person defeats their victim's perception of speed. The victim however has to at least have their eyes on their blitzer before the actual blitz is initiated. Otherwise, it would be considered as a sneak attack instead of a blitz. The panel I showed you before meets all those requirements. Yoruichi was clearly blitzed, and at the same time, got owned by Soifon's speed. Reason why I say owned is because not only did Soifon defeat Yoruichi's perception of speed, but she also literally out paced her in physical speed. Anyone can blitz a stationary target, but Soifon blitzed a moving target whose known as the goddess of flash. I don't think you realize how difficult that is.

Well this isn't what we're arguing, so let me quote you in case you don't remember.

The bold is what we're arguing since that's how I previously quoted you in the first place. Now, is it really impossible to blitz a captain? As far as I know, characters have done it dozens of times in the Bleach series.
Youruichi has not seen soifon for about a century. The last time she saw soifon, soifon was a little girl. She had no idea soifon had improved so much to the point where her speed was that impressive. Hence, she was surprised that soifon was able to get behind her.

What ulqui did to ichigo was definitely a blitz, but that is not in the same context as oppose to soifon. Youruichi was not blitzed by soifon b/c soifon was not able to get the 2 hit kill in that she wanted to.Youruichi was able to repel those attacks

Name one captain getting blitzed by another (ie taken out) other than ichigo. Because using ichigo to compare is fail
[hr]

So Hitsugaya can avoid Soifon's bankai but Soifon can't avoid the thousand-year prison thingy... :eyeroll
Soifon's bankai move in a striaght line, easy for someone to dodge. Furthermore, it clearly showed that the opponent must be pre-occupied in order for soifon to set it up.

As for hitsu's flower burial, it falls down as ice. I would assume it would floats or move along with the wind. Just one touch is enough to immobilize u

Primecut
December 01, 2010, 06:15 PM
You're calling Soi Fon a lethal opponent? Funny how you trash her in every other matchup topic. You're getting a little too obvious with your trolling Prime.

Nope you've got it all wrong guys. She's against the little squirt of captains in this thread. In the thread where I voted against her she is against the Mr. Lethal himself...aka Zaraki Kenpachi. Soifon is lethal but not nearly as lethal as Kenny. In fact, I'd vote for Kenny against most other captains based on his superior feats. While Soifon and Hitsuguya are both low tierers there is a difference between low tierers clearly. Soifon is more like on the top of the low tier while Hitsuguya is at the bottom, right beneath Komamaru-kun. Just because she is low tier doesnt mean she isnt lethal. She can take out other low tierers like this kid and Gio Vega of course with her lethal aggression but that can only go so far against the mid tier gatekeeper captains like Kenpachi.

Omiem
December 01, 2010, 06:50 PM
Then in the next page, you see byakuya standing right beside youruichi, so 1. he wasn't blitzed and 2. does that mean he blitzed youruichi?

You obviously have a different definition of blitzed that I do. When someone is "blitzed", that person is taken out or in a position where they are vulnerable to being taken out by another.
We obviously can't argue this point anymore since our definitions of a blitz are different. There's really no official definition in terms of Bleach battles, so it's all up to opinion pretty much.

Youruichi has not seen soifon for about a century. The last time she saw soifon, soifon was a little girl. She had no idea soifon had improved so much to the point where her speed was that impressive. Hence, she was surprised that soifon was able to get behind her.
You don't know what Yoruichi is thinking at that time, so your point is baseless. Besides, this panel contradicts your claim of Yoruichi being caught off guard. http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-chapter-157-page-17.html
Like I said before, Yoruichi was already aware of Soifon's shikai before that blitz was initiated. She then proceeds to escape as fast as she can, but fails miserably. There's no sign of underestimation in that panel.

What ulqui did to ichigo was definitely a blitz, but that is not in the same context as oppose to soifon. Youruichi was not blitzed by soifon b/c soifon was not able to get the 2 hit kill in that she wanted to.Youruichi was able to repel those attacks
You just contradicted your definition of a blitz. Let me quote you again.

When someone is "blitzed", that person is taken out or in a position where they are vulnerable to being taken out by another.
Yoruichi never repelled any of Soifon's strikes, and she was definitely in a vulnerable position of being taken out since Soifon successfully landed her Homonkas. You can also add the fact that Soifon was holding back her 2 hit kill, which makes it even more of a blitz by your definition. Ichigo was never taken out by Ulquiorra in that initial blitz, but he was in a vulnerable position. So both blitzes are in the same category. Only difference is that Soifon is using her needle, while Ulquiorra is using his strength.

Name one captain getting blitzed by another (ie taken out) other than ichigo. Because using ichigo to compare is fail
http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-chapter-377-page-8.html

Raizen
December 02, 2010, 04:50 PM
1. So u are arguing that soifon speedblitz youruichi am i correct? First off, that youruichi was completely out of practice. And secondly she was not speedblitzed based on my definition of it. When I say they are "vulnerable to being taken out", i mean the opponent can knock them out if they so chose to. An example would be when aizen shuunpo to ichigo and put his hand on his heart. Soifon may have gotten behind youruichi but despite her efforts, she couldn't knock youruichi out- hence it was not a speedblitz. As for the case of ulqui, he could have killed ichi if he wanted to. Ichigo was basically toyed with

2. My excuse for ukitake was that he didn't ready his guard for WW. He may have seen WW, but we know uki has a soft spot for kids

Waking_Dreamer
December 02, 2010, 09:09 PM
http://i204.photobucket.com/albums/bb57/Jonas64/soifoncool2.png

Added the picture to the opening post and credited accordingly.

Omiem
December 03, 2010, 12:35 AM
1. So u are arguing that soifon speedblitz youruichi am i correct? First off, that youruichi was completely out of practice.
It doesn't even matter. *Sigh* Well, I'll say it again. An out of practice Yoruichi who managed to escape from Byakuya. Yoruichi tried to do the same against Soifon, but failed. You could keep arguing that Yoruichi only escaped Byakuya because of her Cicada, but how wasn't she able to use the same technique against Soifon? Probably because Soifon was too fast for her to use it(and no, don't tell me Yoruichi was "surprise" by Soifon's growth). Point is, rusty Yoruichi is still faster than most characters in Bleach, but Soifon is just a little bit quicker. We don't know how fast an un-rusty Yoruichi is, and she didn't really show a major speed increase against Aizen.

And secondly she was not speedblitzed based on my definition of it. When I say they are "vulnerable to being taken out", i mean the opponent can knock them out if they so chose to. An example would be when aizen shuunpo to ichigo and put his hand on his heart. Soifon may have gotten behind youruichi but despite her efforts, she couldn't knock youruichi out- hence it was not a speedblitz. As for the case of ulqui, he could have killed ichi if he wanted to. Ichigo was basically toyed with
This is where I have a problem with your definition of a speed blitz. Your focusing too much on the results of the blitz, and not on the actual speed. When people use the term blitz, they focus on whether or not the blitzers are fast enough to defeat their victim's perception of speed. Both Ulquiorra and Soifon successfully accomplished that by getting close to their victims. However, you seem to be discrediting Soifon's speed blitz since she's using a needle. Basically your saying that Soifon must pull off a 2 hit kill, or it won't register as a blitz otherwise. Well if we apply that logic to every character in Bleach, then your pretty much telling me that no one has ever accomplished a blitz since they haven't pulled off a 2 hit kill.

2. My excuse for ukitake was that he didn't ready his guard for WW. He may have seen WW, but we know uki has a soft spot for kids
There's no solid proof of that.

Takahashi
December 03, 2010, 09:37 AM
1. So u are arguing that soifon speedblitz youruichi am i correct? First off, that youruichi was completely out of practice. And secondly she was not speedblitzed based on my definition of it. When I say they are "vulnerable to being taken out", i mean the opponent can knock them out if they so chose to. An example would be when aizen shuunpo to ichigo and put his hand on his heart. Soifon may have gotten behind youruichi but despite her efforts, she couldn't knock youruichi out- hence it was not a speedblitz. As for the case of ulqui, he could have killed ichi if he wanted to. Ichigo was basically toyed with

The first part about Yoroichi has already been addressed, more times than i care to count.

As far as your definition of speed blitzed goes, you say they're vulnerable of being taken out, last time I checked, having a sword at your throat leaves you pretty damn vulnerable. Soi Fon turning that sword into her Shikai in no way makes it suddenly not a speed blitz. You say that Ulq could have killed Ichigo if he wanted to, well actually, he tried, he actually commented on Ichigo's movements and how had he not done so, his head would have been lopped off. by YOUR definiton, the Soi Fon speed blitz is more of a speed blitz because Soi Fon herself chose not to cut her head off, whereas Ichigo actually made a dodge (barely).


2. My excuse for ukitake was that he didn't ready his guard for WW. He may have seen WW, but we know uki has a soft spot for kids

I'm sorry, but that's like the worst excuse ever :blink

Hystzen
December 04, 2010, 03:48 PM
http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-chapter-377-page-8.html

that is a WTF face not a i knew you where there but cant touch you coz your a kid. ( he even goes "wha---" he did not know WW was there)

he got blitzed..prob only character apart from ichigo vs byakuya first time encounter that has been true WTF blitzed in bleach.

Primecut
December 06, 2010, 07:17 PM
I find Soifon's speed overrated sometimes. I mean, if Omaeda can dodge respira successfully and Soifon got herself tagged then perhaps she isnt much faster than a standard captain. The clones were more of a "parlor trick" than a speed feat according to Lord Aizen-sama.

Takahashi
December 07, 2010, 12:10 AM
I find Soifon's speed overrated sometimes. I mean, if Omaeda can dodge respira successfully and Soifon got herself tagged then perhaps she isnt much faster than a standard captain. The clones were more of a "parlor trick" than a speed feat according to Lord Aizen-sama.

How many times does Barragan have to say "purposely slow Respira" before you get it?

Primecut
December 07, 2010, 06:28 AM
How many times does Barragan have to say "purposely slow Respira" before you get it?

Omaeda dodged more than one respira. Soifon actually has a worse track record against respira than Omaeda. Add up all the time they were used. Soifon has been tagged twice (her shoe and her arm). Omaeda has only been grazed with it once and reacted promptly. Hachi has also prevented more respiras from hitting him than Soifon and she is supposedly Ms. Speed Blitz. I've yet to see her actually back up this fan based claim. I still think she can beat this kid with the parlor clone trick she used on Lord Aizen-sama because he lacks battle strategy, but she isnt significantly faster than other captains.

Exodi
December 07, 2010, 08:53 AM
Omaeda dodged more than one respira. Soifon actually has a worse track record against respira than Omaeda. Add up all the time they were used. Soifon has been tagged twice (her shoe and her arm). Omaeda has only been grazed with it once and reacted promptly. Hachi has also prevented more respiras from hitting him than Soifon and she is supposedly Ms. Speed Blitz. I've yet to see her actually back up this fan based claim. I still think she can beat this kid with the parlor clone trick she used on Lord Aizen-sama because he lacks battle strategy, but she isnt significantly faster than other captains.

Stop that.

Omaeda didn't dodge any Respira.
The first one wasn't even aimed at him, and the second one grazed him.

But like people have mentioned, the one that grazed him was purposefully slowed down:
http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-chapter-372-page-17.html

If anything, that says WORSE about Omaeda because he couldn't dodge a purposefully slow Respira. Barragan says it himself on the page.

Omaeda himself says that Soifon is the fastest in Soul Society. If she couldn't dodge Respira, then no one could.

The evidence points more to Soifon being a lot faster than Hitsugaya.
She has fought well against Yoruichi, she's the freaking leader of the Assassination Squad, her Vice-Captain claims she is the fastest in Soul Society, she killed a released Arrancar before he even realized wtf happened to him, she can create clones (or illusions) due to her speed.....and so on and so forth.

Hitsugaya's strength is in his ice, which I believe Soifon could easily go around.

Waking_Dreamer
December 07, 2010, 09:53 AM
Hitsugaya's strength is in his ice, which I believe Soifon could easily go around.

Well I had time so I'lll drop some points:

Soifon seemed most impressive against Ggio Vega and Yoruichi BUT people dont seem to consider a few things here thats different against Toshiro:

- They had no weapons but their limbs (or pathetic stakes attached to them)
- They had no defenses but their limbs
- Toshiro's body is even smaller than Soifon's and therefore has less surface area than either Vega or Yorui
- Toshiro actually has a weapon and much longer than Yorui, Vega and Sois
- Hes got substantial added defenses in the form of his wings, tails and and iced limbs

http://i204.photobucket.com/albums/bb57/Jonas64/SoifonBlitz2A.jpg
What does this mean?

http://i204.photobucket.com/albums/bb57/Jonas64/SoifonBlitz.jpg

There is a center line between his wings which is most likely the only place for her shikai to work.

She can strike at his defenses all she wants, butterflys wont appear - whether its his tail, wings or blade. The fact that he has a smaller body means he doesnt worry about the many place she may strike at.

Soifon can only tag him in a certain parts of his body anyway - which is the front torso and the head. In front of the head and the torso is where you'll find Hitsugayas zanpakuto which has a much longer reach than her in melee - and can launch incapcitating ice dragons no problem.

If that attack is bypassed that sword of his is also packing Ryusuken which imo is one-hit kill in this battle.

He can also easily swing his dragon tail over what few openings he has or blind spots, which he would know would be a prime target for her. Not to mention that its range and capability for attack and/or defense is higher than that of the only fighters you have seen Soifon tag...

Feel free to diagree but I'll say its a close match...

Primecut
December 07, 2010, 11:56 AM
Stop that.

Omaeda didn't dodge any Respira.
The first one wasn't even aimed at him, and the second one grazed him.

But like people have mentioned, the one that grazed him was purposefully slowed down:
http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-chapter-372-page-17.html


You got the first and second ones covered. But what about the third?

http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-chapter-383-page-10.html

Barragan was serious too so it wasnt purposely slowed down. Now Omaeda's statement about Soifon being the fastest is looking out of place. Since you argued that Omaeda doesnt got any speed how would he know how fast Soifon is versus people like Yamamoto, Shunsui, Lord-Aizen-sama, and anyone else? Someone incapable of moving at those speeds wouldnt be able to comprehend it either. Plus I dont recall him ever seeing Yamaji speed blitzing enemies to make that assessment. Sure, she's fast, but she ain't much faster than the ice kid. He can definately hang with her even if he loses. They are both low tier after all.

Exodi
December 07, 2010, 12:39 PM
You got the first and second ones covered. But what about the third?

http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-chapter-383-page-10.html

Barragan was serious too so it wasnt purposely slowed down. Now Omaeda's statement about Soifon being the fastest is looking out of place. Since you argued that Omaeda doesnt got any speed how would he know how fast Soifon is versus people like Yamamoto, Shunsui, Lord-Aizen-sama, and anyone else? Someone incapable of moving at those speeds wouldnt be able to comprehend it either. Plus I dont recall him ever seeing Yamaji speed blitzing enemies to make that assessment. Sure, she's fast, but she ain't much faster than the ice kid. He can definately hang with her even if he loses. They are both low tier after all.

Seeing as how Soifon apparently was able to stand still and yell for Hachi, I'd say that Barragan released his Respira and then aimed for Hachi, who did take most all of that final Respira. Is it still considered "dodging" if the person firing at you isn't really aiming for you?

http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-chapter-383-page-13.html


Maybe Soifon isn't faster than Yamamoto or Shunsui or Aizen, but she's definitely at a level above Hitsugaya, in my opinion....

The point is this:
Soifon is renowned for her speed. She's the leader of a group that specializes in killing people quickly. Hitsugaya has neither of those credentials.

Raizen
December 07, 2010, 02:30 PM
It doesn't even matter. *Sigh* Well, I'll say it again. An out of practice Yoruichi who managed to escape from Byakuya. Yoruichi tried to do the same against Soifon, but failed. You could keep arguing that Yoruichi only escaped Byakuya because of her Cicada, but how wasn't she able to use the same technique against Soifon? Probably because Soifon was too fast for her to use it(and no, don't tell me Yoruichi was "surprise" by Soifon's growth). Point is, rusty Yoruichi is still faster than most characters in Bleach, but Soifon is just a little bit quicker. We don't know how fast an un-rusty Yoruichi is, and she didn't really show a major speed increase against Aizen.

This is where I have a problem with your definition of a speed blitz. Your focusing too much on the results of the blitz, and not on the actual speed. When people use the term blitz, they focus on whether or not the blitzers are fast enough to defeat their victim's perception of speed. Both Ulquiorra and Soifon successfully accomplished that by getting close to their victims. However, you seem to be discrediting Soifon's speed blitz since she's using a needle. Basically your saying that Soifon must pull off a 2 hit kill, or it won't register as a blitz otherwise. Well if we apply that logic to every character in Bleach, then your pretty much telling me that no one has ever accomplished a blitz since they haven't pulled off a 2 hit kill.

There's no solid proof of that.
1. Youruichi clearly stated she was out of shape after she carried ichigo away. So that means she is not as fast as she usually is. We don't know how cicada works or what u have to do to set it up. She grew up playing cat and mouse with byakuya, so maybe she knew how he was going to counter her speed so she set up cicada for that. IDK. But saying she didn't use cicada against soifon as an argument doesn't make sense b/c the author can do whatever the hell he wants. Soifon is indeed fast. most likely faster than out of shape youruichi. But even then, i don't see her speed blitzing hitsugaya

2. Speedblitz is when the opponent can't rect to your speed. Youruichi was still able to react and avoid fatal blows from soifon. I fully believe that if soifon stab her needle in a vital spot, she can kill someone with just one hit.

3. His soft spot for children was shown when he couldn't fight lillinete and took her lightly.
[hr]

The first part about Yoroichi has already been addressed, more times than i care to count.

As far as your definition of speed blitzed goes, you say they're vulnerable of being taken out, last time I checked, having a sword at your throat leaves you pretty damn vulnerable. Soi Fon turning that sword into her Shikai in no way makes it suddenly not a speed blitz. You say that Ulq could have killed Ichigo if he wanted to, well actually, he tried, he actually commented on Ichigo's movements and how had he not done so, his head would have been lopped off. by YOUR definiton, the Soi Fon speed blitz is more of a speed blitz because Soi Fon herself chose not to cut her head off, whereas Ichigo actually made a dodge (barely).



I'm sorry, but that's like the worst excuse ever :blink
Look at above post :amuse
[hr]
@ Waking Dreamer- WOWOWOWOW u are really good!!

Takahashi
December 07, 2010, 06:31 PM
1. Youruichi clearly stated she was out of shape after she carried ichigo away. So that means she is not as fast as she usually is. We don't know how cicada works or what u have to do to set it up. She grew up playing cat and mouse with byakuya, so maybe she knew how he was going to counter her speed so she set up cicada for that. IDK. But saying she didn't use cicada against soifon as an argument doesn't make sense b/c the author can do whatever the hell he wants. Soifon is indeed fast. most likely faster than out of shape youruichi. But even then, i don't see her speed blitzing hitsugaya

Irrelevant whether she "knew" how to avoid Byakuya or not. The entire point of the Yoro and Byakuya thing is this:

Byakuya is really fast

Yoroichi is faster

Soi Fon is faster than Yoroichi

Doesn't matter if Byakuya fell for a trick, doesn't matter if Yoroichi is out of shape. The entire point is that Soi Fon is many steps above Byakuya in terms of speed, because regardless of circumstances, the woman who outclassed Byakuya was outclassed by Soi Fon. Assuming that Hitsugaya is as fast as Byakuya (which I still doubt), then Soi Fon is many levels above Hitsu.


2. Speedblitz is when the opponent can't rect to your speed. Youruichi was still able to react and avoid fatal blows from soifon. I fully believe that if soifon stab her needle in a vital spot, she can kill someone with just one hit.

You're misunderstanding the scene we are talking about. Nothing to do with Suzumabachi. Soi Fon with her sealed sword had Yoroichi by the throat before she knew what had happened. By the explanation of speed blitzing that you've given, that without a doubt fits.



3. His soft spot for children was shown when he couldn't fight lillinete and took her lightly.

I'm aware of that, but to say he basically let WW punch through his spine because he's a kid? No. He looked over after hearing Stark's comment and before he even comprehended who it was, he was done. If he had made a comment about WW being a child beforehand, I'd give that idea more credit.

Raizen
December 08, 2010, 07:48 PM
Irrelevant whether she "knew" how to avoid Byakuya or not. The entire point of the Yoro and Byakuya thing is this:

Byakuya is really fast

Yoroichi is faster

Soi Fon is faster than Yoroichi

Doesn't matter if Byakuya fell for a trick, doesn't matter if Yoroichi is out of shape. The entire point is that Soi Fon is many steps above Byakuya in terms of speed, because regardless of circumstances, the woman who outclassed Byakuya was outclassed by Soi Fon. Assuming that Hitsugaya is as fast as Byakuya (which I still doubt), then Soi Fon is many levels above Hitsu.



You're misunderstanding the scene we are talking about. Nothing to do with Suzumabachi. Soi Fon with her sealed sword had Yoroichi by the throat before she knew what had happened. By the explanation of speed blitzing that you've given, that without a doubt fits.




I'm aware of that, but to say he basically let WW punch through his spine because he's a kid? No. He looked over after hearing Stark's comment and before he even comprehended who it was, he was done. If he had made a comment about WW being a child beforehand, I'd give that idea more credit.
1. Soifon may be faster than byakuya. i am not arguing that fact. But u claim as if the speed is significant enough to make byakuya or hitsu seem like a child. Speed alone won't win the battle for soifon. As someone else has stated, in most of her battles, her opponents were meelee types and had no forms of outer defense or long ranged techniques. With hitsu, there are ice armors, the attack he used on the fraccion, etc.

2. Point taken. Now are u assuming she can do the same to hitsu? B/c if i am not mistaken, hitsu has pretty great reflexes

3. Emotions play a part of how u perceive and react to things. I bet he was going WTF when he saw that down syndrome kid. I am disappointed with how the author handled ukitake. So i am hoping he redeems himself

Takahashi
December 08, 2010, 08:42 PM
1. Soifon may be faster than byakuya. i am not arguing that fact. But u claim as if the speed is significant enough to make byakuya or hitsu seem like a child. Speed alone won't win the battle for soifon. As someone else has stated, in most of her battles, her opponents were meelee types and had no forms of outer defense or long ranged techniques. With hitsu, there are ice armors, the attack he used on the fraccion, etc.

If you believe Soi Fon will win, then naturally the thing to defend would be her speed. She's got a hax Shikai and is faster than everyone, to what degree, we don't know however. It's just important that we note that she's significantly faster than him.


2. Point taken. Now are u assuming she can do the same to hitsu? B/c if i am not mistaken, hitsu has pretty great reflexes

Yoroichi doesn't? No one's saying Hitsu's gonna lose this in an identical way, that situation just happens to be a testament to her speed that you should consider when deciding who would win.


3. Emotions play a part of how u perceive and react to things. I bet he was going WTF when he saw that down syndrome kid. I am disappointed with how the author handled ukitake. So i am hoping he redeems himself

My guess is that Kubo couldn't think of another way to down him so he just made something up. Sick Ukitake or not, I have a hard time believing supposedly one of the most powerful captains got punched through by a guy Mashiro beat the hell out of.

Raizen
December 08, 2010, 09:10 PM
1. Her speed is very impressive. But hitsu has many ways to slow her down. His ice is capable of that. And he has shown that he is good at increasing the distance between him and his enemies.

2. Youruichi has not shown any impressive reflex feats is what i am saying

3. well mashiro got owned with a plain punch to the face. NAd none of her attacks really hurt WW :amuse

Takahashi
December 08, 2010, 09:28 PM
1. Her speed is very impressive. But hitsu has many ways to slow her down. His ice is capable of that. And he has shown that he is good at increasing the distance between him and his enemies.

Well in the same way Soi Fon hasn't been shown facing an "armored" opponent, Hitsu hasn't faced someone as fast as her before either. I think the speed is a defining factor.


2. Youruichi has not shown any impressive reflex feats is what i am saying

Uhh, hasn't she? Wouldn't you agree she's got better reflexes than Hitsu?


3. well mashiro got owned with a plain punch to the face. NAd none of her attacks really hurt WW :amuse

:amuse

Raizen
December 08, 2010, 10:51 PM
1. Halibel was pretty quick wouldn't u say. And considering hitsu was able to react this quickly, i'd say he has a high chance of countering soifon's speed.
http://www.mangafox.com/manga/bleach/v16/c132/13.html

2. Youruichi has yet to show any reflexes that impressed me like hitsu did