Character Sasuke and power-ups....are they free gifts or not??? [Archive] - Page 2

M3J

March 22, 2010, 11:20 PM

Saying Naruto mastered Rasengan instantly doesn't make sense. He had been practicing it and gaining experience for quite some time, practicing into all different times of the night, passing out, burning his hands, etc. He learned stage by stage until he put the completed jutsu together. He put in significant work and everyone knows it, including you. There was no instant mastery.
Kinda similar to Sasuke, except he was practicing his MS jutsu in a fight, and unlike Naruto and rasengan, he could only practice it in fight since usage of any MS jutsu increases the rate of sealing. Naruto got a moment of insight and used bunshin, which is similar to Sasuke learning how to use MS jutsu. If it works, they can improve their usage of jutsu.

I never did say Naruto didn't put work. One of the things I love about the kid is that he works extremely hard and compensates for his stupidity by not giving up.

what does sasuke do in his fights now? use MS for always? yes, he does that. from where the MS did come? because Itachi choose to die by sasuke? so i think it is logical enough to say that MS was a gift. now comes the jutsu for MS, if MS is a gift, so are the jutsu. end of story.
The jutsu aren't exactly gifts because not everyone can just master Amaterasu, Tsukiyomi, or Susano'o. It's Sasuke's intelligence that enabled him to use all three proficiently enough. Sasuke didn't have it easy when he beat Itachi, nor was he mentally healthy after Madara told him everything. Sasuke trained hard to be on near equal standing with Itachi.

then there is the other powers of sharingan. yes, we have seen many bloodlines with various abilities. but none of those has the ability to steal the jutsu from other people. then there is the predicting power of sharingan. wasn't it a sudden power up? and then sasuke coped with the power in matter of seconds. great way to show his genius, but it was too much BS for me. then there is the power of sharingan to see through any genjutsu. actually every powers of sharingan is a free power up, whether you like it or not.
Any normal shinobi can steal jutsu from others. And if you're specifically talking about Sasuke, then he wasn't able to exactly predict movements until he fought Naruto, he still had two tomoe. And despite his Sharingan, he lost to Rock Lee AND Gaara.
Every power of Sharingan isn't free. Its user determines the power. Sharingan, like a tool, is useful depending on the skills of its user.

it surely is different from the power of other bloodlines. no other bloodline has this much powers. and someone has to train hard to use the powers of bloodline except doujutsu bloodlines. we know nothing much about rinnegan, byakugan has the ability to see chakra and 359 degrees at once, is also able to see through objects. while sharingan has the ability to make the opponents slower, can see through any genjutsu, can copy any movement made by others. all of this comes without even training.
Rinnegan has more power than the Sharingan and we know enough about it. And Sharingan requires training as well, or at least via combat. And there's no proof Sharingan can see genjutsu. Sasuke and Itachi trained themselves to be able to see through genjutsu.

Exodi

March 23, 2010, 06:31 AM

LoL you need to read and analyze my post.... I didn't say Naruto didn't yet learn KB and Rasengan... I say he sucks on it using it the first or second time he trained hard to mastering it.... There are many post here that stating the normal way and the abnormal way maybe you should just back read it first I didn't want to state the normal way again and again in my posts....

LOL again when naruto first use FRS he didn't master it yet fully.... Why I said that because when Naruto use FRS on Kakuzu he didn't throw it yet because he can't do it yet then when he battle Pain he can throw the FRS already that is what you call not mastering in an instant but harnessing it to fully master it.... For Sasuke he master the Susano in about a few hours after his fight with the Kage...

You didn't say that. Thanks for clearing it up.
The rest of my response still applies, though.

Ryr

March 23, 2010, 06:37 AM

You can't compare arguing with shooting flames out of eyes.

I can. Sasuke is skillful in jutsus in the same way I am skillful at arguments. Why? Because he is willing to spent a great portion of his time fighting actual opponents, while I am willing to engage in arguments against actual people.

You can write 10 essays every day and still suck at arguing, in the same way a character in the series can train for all eternity but still suck at actual fighting.

Training without actual combat experience simply wouldn't let you go very far.

Seriously, the main thing reason of why MS is so cheap is because it saves Sasuke's life in a instant and he becomes many times stronger than he was before.

Are you going to say that a Yamanaka is cheap because he simply switches souls with you and stabbed you while he was in your body? Are you going to say that a Hyuga is cheap simply because he can neutralize all of Lee's chakra through a gentle touch? Everyone in the series has their own overpowering skills, if you are going to say a character is cheap simply because he has access to an awesome jutsu, then everyone is equally cheap LOL. Which is, course, nonsense.

It's like a fat kid suddently jumping 10 cm longer than he could and dodge a bullet

Choji can certainly jump really high if he wants to. So it's absurd to compare reality in a manga with the reality in our world.

jdw

March 23, 2010, 06:47 AM

Seriously, the main thing reason of why MS is so cheap is because it saves Sasuke's life in a instant and he becomes many times stronger than he was before.

Are you going to say that a Yamanaka is cheap because he simply switches souls with you and stabbed you while he was in your body? Are you going to say that a Hyuga is cheap simply because he can neutralize all of Lee's chakra through a gentle touch? Everyone in the series has their own overpowering skills, if you are going to say a character is cheap simply because he has access to an awesome jutsu, then everyone is equally cheap LOL. Which, of course, is nonsense.

There is no sign that Hyuuga or Yamanaka just suddenly obtained those skills in battle, leveled them up and labeled it training, instantly becoming far stronger than they were before.

Xerous

March 23, 2010, 06:58 AM

the only reason why naruto can catch up to sasuke and other ninja is because he works hard for it, real hard. To say naruto should not be in sasuke's level because sasuke is a genius is beyond anything but dumb. remember that although uchiha are all genius they never did become hokage or anything else because they all are stuck up jackass that believe their eyes is everything while other ninjas actually train to obtain powers. and for the 2 years sasuke was training with orochimaru, sasuke was using drugs to increase his performance which sakura stated in the manga. A genius means nothing if that person does not work something to obtain that something. someone that actually work their butt off will pass a genius no matter what especially if that genius only sits down and screams all the time(sasuke), this is the message kishi is giving to us ever seens the manga started hard work beats natural genius.

All the Uchiha were geniuses?:blink please and correct me if i'm wrong (i'm not:p) they were not allowed to be hokage also the whole hard work < genius thing has yet to be set in stone frankly as of late i've been seeing the opposite:notrust and kishi has yet to stick to a ''message'':darn
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gah that was page 10:(

Ryr

March 23, 2010, 07:01 AM

There is no sign that Hyuuga or Yamanaka just suddenly obtained those skills in battle, instantly becoming far stronger than they were before.

And what makes you think that Sasuke 'suddenly' obtains his skills? Susanoo was evolved through multiple hard fights; Enton was created out of the knowledge Sasuke obtained in his fight against Bee; Kirin was invented for the purpose of striking a critical hit against Itachi.

The Mangakyou was obtained in a similar way to how all other Uchihas had obtained theirs, which is, through experiencing extreme emotional grief over the killing of a loved one. You speak as if Sasuke's mangakyou falls from the heaven.

Sasuke's evolution is faster than many other characters, because unlike them, he doesn't spend months in training to try to master a single jutsu - he learnt the majority of his current skills in actual combat, which is itself fast-paced in nature.

If possessing the sharingan guarantees a character to become godly, the Uchihas in Konoha wouldn't be killed off so easily.

So, anyone who is arguing on how the sharingan gives an unfair advantage is really just whining on how he/she does not like Sasuke being a quick-learner. Truth hurts, right.

jdw

March 23, 2010, 07:33 AM

And what makes you think that Sasuke 'suddenly' obtains his skills? Susanoo was evolved through multiple hard fights; Enton was created out of the knowledge Sasuke obtained in his fight against Bee; Kirin was invented for the purpose of striking a critical hit against Itachi.

The Mangakyou was obtained in a similar way to how all other Uchihas had obtained theirs, which is, through experiencing extreme emotional grief over the killing of a loved one. You speak as if Sasuke's mangakyou falls from the heaven.

Sasuke's evolution is faster than many other characters, because unlike them, he doesn't spend months in training to try to master a single jutsu - he learnt the majority of his current skills in actual combat, which is itself fast-paced in nature.

If possessing the sharingan guarantees a character to become godly, the Uchihas in Konoha wouldn't be killed off so easily.

So, anyone who is arguing on how the sharingan gives an unfair advantage is really just whining on how he/she does not like Sasuke being a quick-learner. Truth hurts, right.

When it comes to Kirin, I assume Sasuke worked hard at creating and perfecting the jutsu. When it comes to all of Sasuke's skills other than MS, I assume he worked hard to develop and perfect them. I personally do not consider sharingan an unfair advantage at all, I just think the way Kishi "develops" it, and the MS in particular, makes it come off as cheap. So, stated simply, no problem with the powers, just the way they are obtained. HTH.

zagorka

March 23, 2010, 08:05 AM

If possessing the sharingan guarantees a character to become godly, the Uchihas in Konoha wouldn't be killed off so easily.
.So the Uchiha who were always constantly battling during wars in the past were not training hard, or fighting as much as Sasuke? What is Sasuke doing differently that is making him such an amazing ninja? If the sharingan can do what it can do for Sasuke, then it should have happened for many Uchiha in the past. Not just a few people. Kishimoto probably tried to fix this flaw in the story by having the Uchiha practically extinct.

So, anyone who is arguing on how the sharingan gives an unfair advantage is really just whining on how he/she does not like Sasuke being a quick-learner. Truth hurts, rightUh, the sharingan is a deus-ex-machina. You haven't noticed? ... Along with the fact that Sasuke's growth is horrible (note: He's not the only character that suffers from this) the sharingan does give the opponent an incredible unfair advantage over others. It practically does everything. It's up to you to accept these facts.

Ryr

March 23, 2010, 09:21 AM

So the Uchiha who were always constantly battling during wars in the past were not training hard, or fighting as much as Sasuke? What is Sasuke doing differently that is making him such an amazing ninja? If the sharingan can do what it can do for Sasuke, then it should have happened for many Uchiha in the past. Not just a few people. Kishimoto probably tried to fix this flaw in the story by having the Uchiha practically extinct.

Aha! The highlighted word in the quote suggests that the author still believe that training in his house constitutes everything for a ninja.

An average Uchiha may train for years and learn a few things; another Uchina may fight constantly but still end up using the same old jutsus. To learn as quickly as Sasuke, one would need to possess the level of ingenuity and flexibility to actually learn from every one of his fights.

And apparently, not everyone under the sun has the brain to learn from actual combat. To fight without learning anything is a waste of effort, and Sasuke has been portrayed as a quick-learner since chapter 1, so him learning fast has been consistent throughout the series.

Uh, the sharingan is a deus-ex-machina. You haven't noticed?

The sharingan is simply a tool. Those who use their tools cleverly are known as great ninjas, while those who suck at using their tools are known as sucky ninjas.

the sharingan does give the opponent an incredible unfair advantage over others. It practically does everything. It's up to you to accept these facts.

So is switching souls with your opponents, or having your chakra multiplied by a hundred, or controlling gravity, or creating microscopic bombs, or completely absorbing your opponent's chakra, etc etc etc.

Any jutsu or blood limit is there for you to have an advantage! Maybe you would like a jutsu that doesn't give you advantage? LOL.

Almost every skill in the series is overpowered, but not everyone in the series is a genius at using his skills.

Rikudou King

March 23, 2010, 12:40 PM

Uh, the sharingan is a deus-ex-machina. You haven't noticed? ... Along with the fact that Sasuke's growth is horrible (note: He's not the only character that suffers from this) the sharingan does give the opponent an incredible unfair advantage over others. It practically does everything. It's up to you to accept these facts. I'ld like to point out that since Sasuke gained MS, he hasn't had the "advantage" over anyone. In fact, He has actually encountered people with the advantage over the Sharingan's godly abilities.

hakuthehedgehog

March 23, 2010, 01:26 PM

Weapon_X

March 23, 2010, 02:02 PM

Learning extremely powerful skills in battle is why the MS is broken.
Seriously, if a character gets his life saved because he or she learned how to use something that they couldn't before in an instant it is a cheap win.
Kishi could've made the MS so that you have the knowleage of the techniques by genjutsu training and changed the fights a little bit so that Sasuke planned the usage of the jutsu and it whould be much more accetable and not cheap.
But instead, Sasuke unlocks new powers in a single day by instinct.

1. To acquire Susano'o you just need Amaterasu and Tsukiyomi unlocked. There are no special requirements for Susano'o. If you are complaining about why Sasuke got it so quick then you might aswell argue how Itachi got it because it's the same precedure. And then you might aswell argue against Kishi because he's the one who set out the rules "Amaterasu usage + Tsukiyomi usage = Susano'o unlocked. "

2. You cannot train with MS. It will lead to blindness quicker, and it's just a stupid thing to do. Madara has said that this is the way how he trains a pupil, by pitting him against fights and unlocking their powers through fights. Not everyone has to sit down and train, those who sit down and train never imporve their abilities during fighting and then you have those who go in fights and do the actual shit and they do improve their abilities, for example, Sasuke. Sasuke doesn't need to be like Naruto.

3. Sasuke is a genius. It shouldn't be shocking if he found how to manipulate Amaterasu because that just shows that even in the heat of battle he can improve his abilities further which showcases his genius and intellect in Ninjutsu.

And I don't see how MS is a cheap trick when it has one of the biggest drawbacks in the manga - blindness.

Edit - There are quiet a few people who massivly underrate for what Sasuke truly is on this forum.

M3J

March 23, 2010, 02:40 PM

All the Uchiha were geniuses?:blink please and correct me if i'm wrong (i'm not:p) they were not allowed to be hokage also the whole hard work < genius thing has yet to be set in stone frankly as of late i've been seeing the opposite:notrust and kishi has yet to stick to a ''message'':darn
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gah that was page 10:(
Not all Uchiha were genii, but some were. But just because Uchiha was touted as a genius clan doesn't mean there wasn't anyone even more of a genius. And as Madara said, Uchiha kept being pushed to the side. Orochimaru was said to be a genius that appeared once in a few generations, yet Orochimaru didn't become a hokage. Shikaku is a leader of the jounin, one of the most intelligent, yet he's not a hokage. Not fair to judge genius on whether one became kage or not.

So the Uchiha who were always constantly battling during wars in the past were not training hard, or fighting as much as Sasuke? What is Sasuke doing differently that is making him such an amazing ninja? If the sharingan can do what it can do for Sasuke, then it should have happened for many Uchiha in the past. Not just a few people. Kishimoto probably tried to fix this flaw in the story by having the Uchiha practically extinct.
Sasuke's intelligent. They fought more than Sasuke and probably trained harder, but we dunno much about that era. And once again, Sharingan is nothing if its user isn't skilled or intelligent enough to use it wisely.

Uh, the sharingan is a deus-ex-machina. You haven't noticed? ... Along with the fact that Sasuke's growth is horrible (note: He's not the only character that suffers from this) the sharingan does give the opponent an incredible unfair advantage over others. It practically does everything. It's up to you to accept these facts.
Sasuke, even with Sharingan, still had trouble fighting. Kakashi still lost couple of times. Even Madara lost to Hashirama and Minato. Sharingan didn't help the clan survive Itachi and Madara.

Learning extremely powerful skills in battle is why the MS is broken.
Seriously, if a character gets his life saved because he or she learned how to use something that they couldn't before in an instant it is a cheap win.
Kishi could've made the MS so that you have the knowleage of the techniques by genjutsu training and changed the fights a little bit so that Sasuke planned the usage of the jutsu and it whould be much more accetable and not cheap.
But instead, Sasuke unlocks new powers in a single day by instinct.

Naruto had a cheap win against Kabuto as he couldn't use rasengan successfully before but in an instant knew how.
Sasuke tested out whether he could use the powers, and after he did, he tested out to see if he could control it and to what extent he could use the power.

Despite MS, he still got owned by Killerbee and Raikage, and even Gaara. He beat Danzou with a basic genjutsu.

exacta

March 23, 2010, 02:41 PM

I suppose you could say Sasuke's gifts are somewhat free. I mean, he's trained alot, but, Itachi GAVE him MS, and now he's transplanting Itachi's eyes to make him even stronger. And Orochimaru GAVE him the curse seal. Those are big sources of Sasuke's power, and Sasuke abuses them alot, especially most recently, and he technically did get them for free, granted he had to survive first.Not to mention he's an Uchiha, who are born with Sharingan and are supposed to be born talented. He had to train to learn Chidori,and a few other techniques, so he's not entirely spoiled. But he's certainly not the most hardworking of the characters. Rock Lee and Naruto trained alot harder, especially since Naruto avoids using the Kyuubi and learned how to use Sage Mode and Rasenshuriken.

Ever since Itachi gave him MS, the success he had in battles were because of MS, you can't deny that. Well, Sasuke outsmarted Danzou, but MS smacked Danzou around alot beforehand. At the very least, without MS, it'd be hard to say if the outcome would've been the same. I don't really think they would've been. Well, it's really only against Killer Bee that I'm certain he would've lost without it, but thats obvious.

Not to take away credit from Sasuke.......he's very skilled and he's taught himself alot of powerful techniques, but lately he's been given a lot of power. I guess that goes hand in hand with corruption....

Evil_Eyes

March 23, 2010, 04:17 PM

Audaces Fortuna Iuvat.

Fortune favors the brave.

The Sauce was in the right place at the right time, ONLY because he chose to be. If he hadn't deserted konoha for Orochimaru, he wouldn't have been able to gain the cursed seal. He wouldn't have been able to compete with Itachi, who would have probably kicked him in the balls this time instead of the stomach, in order to force the Sauce to seek more power :(

Only because he fought with Itachi, did he gain the Mangekyou Sharingan. And then again, the ONLY free gift that Itachi kun gave him was the one-shot amaterasu at poor old daddy Madara :( Luckily he escaped, yay!
The Sauce developed the capability to put out the Amaterasu on his own. And don't even get me started on the enton.

If you want a free gift, I'd say it's Naruto kun's kage bunshin. -_-

tobeulp

March 23, 2010, 08:57 PM

Delbi

March 23, 2010, 09:48 PM

There is no sign that Hyuuga or Yamanaka just suddenly obtained those skills in battle, leveled them up and labeled it training, instantly becoming far stronger than they were before.

Since the beginning the Sharigan has been evolved and activated in high pressure situations in combat. This has been a manga fact since the beginning.

jdw

March 23, 2010, 09:52 PM

Since the beginning the Sharigan has been evolved and activated in high pressure situations in combat. This has been a manga fact since the beginning.

Thanks. That is besides the point as far as I am concerned. I am not saying that it is a new thing to sharingan, I am saying it is disappointing that it has occurred that way at all, even if it was since the beginning, but most notably with MS. Just because it has been that way since the beginning doesn't change anything imo. I think the sharingan and MS could have been implemented in a far better way, without reducing the overall power of the abilities and without making Sasuke look like less of a genius. It would have required Kishi to frame the doujutsu slightly differently is all.

Delbi

March 23, 2010, 09:57 PM

And saying learning techniques in Battle is fastest way to acquire a technique is not bad for me but acquiring it and mastered it at the same time is a big NO for me.... Because from what I see from Sasuke he acquire a technique and mastered it at the same time is BS that is why many of the Naruto readers are complaining about it....

Sasuke is only mastering techniques that he already had an affinity to by virtue of him being an Uchiha. He's also a genius, so there are your two explanations why he mastered MS so fast.

People can't handle that Sasuke is what he is. There are people like this in the world, most are just jealious because they can't be like that, suck it up and deal with it.

Kishi has been portraying Sasuke like this from DAY ONE. Why after 10 years people can't accept that is beyond me.
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Thanks. That is besides the point as far as I am concerned. I am not saying that it is a new thing to sharingan, I am saying it is disappointing that it has occurred that way at all, even if it was since the beginning, but most notably with MS. Just because it has been that way since the beginning doesn't change anything imo.

And this is one of the reasons why the Uchiha has been one of if not the single most powerful clan in all of the manga.

Sasuke is a genius of the elite. The best of the best. Naruto is the hardworking idoit who pulls through with guts alone most of the time. They are complete opposites in that reguard.

We have a perfect explanation with how and why Sasuke can do what he does. I can't undestand why that's not good enough for some people to be quite honest.

jdw

March 23, 2010, 10:01 PM

Sasuke is only mastering techniques that he already had an affinity to by virtue of him being an Uchiha. He's also a genius, so there are your two explanations why he mastered MS so fast.

People can't handle that Sasuke is what he is. There are people like this in the world, most are just jealious because they can't be like that, suck it up and deal with it.

Kishi has been portraying Sasuke like this from DAY ONE. Why after 10 years people can't accept that is beyond me.
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And this is one of the reasons why the Uchiha has been one of if not the single most powerful clan in all of the manga.

Sasuke is a genius of the elite. The best of the best. Naruto is the hardworking idoit who pulls through with guts alone most of the time. They are complete opposites in that reguard.

We have a perfect explanation with how and why Sasuke can do what he does. I can't undestand why that's not good enough for some people to be quite honest.

I accept it, I just don't like it. I don't feel a need to like everything that hits the page. It is fine if you do, I hold no grudge. I think MS is cheap. You don't have to share my opinion but citing back the origins of sharingan and Uchiha war lore are of no use.

Rikudou King

March 23, 2010, 10:03 PM

Firstly Naruto learn kage bunshin by reading a scroll and we all know that many ninjas learn techniques just by reading scroll so saying it is a free gift is BS.... The argument was using a new technique right in battle without anything effort shown beforehand. We saw none of the training Naruto did for it. So if the definition for a "free gift" is gonna be using a brand new technique to win, Then the Kage Bunshin count too.

And saying learning techniques in Battle is fastest way to acquire a technique is not bad for me but acquiring it and mastered it at the same time is a big NO for me.... Because from what I see from Sasuke he acquire a technique and mastered it at the same time is BS that is why many of the Naruto readers are complaining about it.... When did Sasuke acquire and master a technique right in the same fight?

-With his Amaterasu he first used it against the Hachibi with effort and later on against Ee did he manage to manipulate it.
-With Tsukuyomi, He used it on some random guy, Then on Kirabi who broke it, And finally against Danzo who also broke the first use. Only after applying past knowledge did it work on Danzo the second time.
-With Susanoo, Sasuke first formed the ribcage against Ee that lasted til Gaara interrupted, Then the skeleton form later against Gaara and gang that lasted for a short time and switched back to the ribcage, The skeleton form again against Danzo, Then the body after Danzo talked crap about Itachi that lasted for another while, And then finally the armor form for a few seconds against Kakashi.

The point being, Sasuke showed his MS techniques long before he was able to use them correctly and win a fight.

Delbi

March 23, 2010, 10:10 PM

I accept it, I just don't like it. I don't feel a need to like everything that hits the page. It is fine if you do, I hold no grudge. I think MS is cheap. You don't have to share my opinion but citing back the origins of sharingan and Uchiha war lore are of no use.

Question then. You don't like that Sasuke can learn trhing so fast, but what about Naruto? Was it ok for him to learn Kage Bushin in a night? Or to learn Sage Mode in like a week when Jiraiya couldn't in a lifetime? These seem very strange especially since Naruto has been seen as an idoit when it comes to these types of things. I don't know, just wondering.

I don't know, I don't mind it at all, but I just feel that some people are rather biased towards Sasuke for learning things quick, and not Naruto.

Lord Abortion

March 23, 2010, 10:14 PM

To be fair, Sasuke has developed in the rate that Naruto has.

They both have a superpowered shroud that can fire projectiles along with acting as an exoskeleton and armor.

While sasuke has however many electricity techniques, Naruto has a number of rasengan techniques developed.

Sasuke can use powerful illusions and from what we know, Naruto can resist his chakra being manipulated by someone the strength of pein.

Sasuke has summoned manda and now a hawk while Naruto has summoned just about every frog.

While sasuke can see the flow of chakra and predict movements, Naruto is now at one with his surroundings and can feel out chakra and use it to enhance his striking range.
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Question then. You don't like that Sasuke can learn trhing so fast, but what about Naruto? Was it ok for him to learn Kage Bushin in a night? Or to learn Sage Mode in like a week when Jiraiya couldn't in a lifetime? These seem very strange especially since Naruto has been seen as an idoit when it comes to these types of things. I don't know, just wondering.

I don't know, I don't mind it at all, but I just feel that some people are rather biased towards Sasuke for learning things quick, and not Naruto.

I don't think he's been shown as much as an idiot as a kluts and if he is an idiot, he's an idiot savant with the way he applies and has applied some random aspects into his fights.

Delbi

March 23, 2010, 10:21 PM

I don't think he's been shown as much as an idiot as a kluts and if he is an idiot, he's an idiot savant with the way he applies and has applied some random aspects into his fights.

He is an idoit savant, I've been saying that for a while now, but he's still an idoit.

Can't form a Rasengan in one hand.

Didn't understand that his Kage Bushins were relaying information back to him.

Has to have everything dumbed down for him.

Can't fathom that maybe Sasuke just really is a prick.

The list goes on and on...

So it angers me when people don't like that Sasuke, the genius, can learn things fast, but when Naruto, the idoit, learns things fast, it's somehow acceptable

jdw

March 23, 2010, 10:22 PM

Question then. You don't like that Sasuke can learn trhing so fast, but what about Naruto? Was it ok for him to learn Kage Bushin in a night? Or to learn Sage Mode in like a week when Jiraiya couldn't in a lifetime? These seem very strange especially since Naruto has been seen as an idoit when it comes to these types of things. I don't know, just wondering.

I don't know, I don't mind it at all, but I just feel that some people are rather biased towards Sasuke for learning things quick, and not Naruto.

I have no problem with people learning things faster than others. I have a problem when it is done in such a way that it appears instant. A few pages back I posted how Sasuke could have gotten MS to my satisfaction. Here is an exchange I had with Ryr (the final post being the most important with respect to your question):

But seriously, even though he is the hate filled genius of the sharingan, it doesn't even seem slightly cheap that Sasuke became the God of Amaterasu after 2 minutes of usage (training in battle in you prefer)? He has a full fledged Evangelion after 5-15 minutes of actual usage (training in battle if you prefer). Even if we are to accept that Sasuke learns through his battles, which is fine, it wouldn't seem as cheap if Sasuke didn't become the god of Amaterasu in 2-3 minutes of usage, unlocked final form Evangelion in 5-15 minutes (15 minutes of usage is being generous). I wouldn't object if Sasuke learned the riblet edition of Susanoo against the Kages/danzou, then maybe the skeleton edition again Kakashi, then a few full fights later after using those for a while, unlocked Archer susanoo, then a little later got bodysuit form.

The whole post is a really big contradiction. You acknowledge Sasuke being a genius, but contend that he should learn things slowly?

Sasuke's training method, which is, through actual combat, is simply a better way to stimulate new ideas. Whenever a person is being forced into a corner, the brain would be forced to work at maximum capacity.
15- 20 minutes is already a long time in a fast-paced combat between S-ranked opponents. In that 15-20 minutes alone, the brain would be working like a slave to continuously come up with multiple options for offense and for keeping your own life. A 15-20 minutes fight with a S-ranked opponent eager to rip you into two halves is simply superior to weeks of training where all you do is playing with

And you keep putting emphasis on Amaterasu and Susanoo as if those skills are unfair, so let me tell you that in the Naruto series, everyone has their own overpowering skills: a touch by a Hyuga seals off your all chakra circulatory system, a colored pill multiplies your chakra by hundreds, a Yamanaka can simply switches souls with you, etc etc. In the end it's really how you use your given skills that matters. For instance, Amaterasu in Sasuke's hands is not simply a burst of wildfire, it became a shield and a spear - and this he learnt from his fights with Bee and Raikage.

It isn't a contradiction at all if you are the least bit creative with it. He wouldn't have to necessarily learn things "slowly." For instance, it could be this way:

A non-genius Uchiha would normally take years to perfect Susanoo. Imperfect stages would result in less life force lost, and much less damage to the MS, whereas perfected Susanoo would result in greater loss of life force and greater damage to MS. Sasuke could then, as the hate filled genius of sharingan, unlock complete Susanoo over the course of a 2-weeks to a month, having lost little eyesight or life force. This would give the appearance of effort, etc, and preserve Sasuke's astounding level of being a genius.

This would have him learning it slower than he did in the manga as we know it now, but rapidly under different standards compared to other Uchiha and still allowing Sasuke to be a genius.

Basically, if Kishi framed MS slightly differently, he could have made MS seem less cheap and make Sasuke still be a genius.

Bonfire01

March 23, 2010, 10:29 PM

sasuke is a acknowledged genius even b4 he activated the sharingan,he was the best in a class Naruto was in he mastered every technique he was thought.Naruto should never in his life be able to catch up with a genius like sasuke.Sasuke is of the Uchiha clan in a normal case Naruto is inadequate to be called his opponent.So the one getting the unreasonable power is Naruto.They both went training for two and a half years and Naruto wasn't a match for sasuke.

I think you misunderstand about Naruto....

The idea is that Naruto goofed off all the time and pulled pranks because it was the only way he could get any attention as stated by Iruka and the third. That is presumably why he sucked at the academy.

After that though he acted like something of a genius... He learnt a Jonin level technique in one evening from a scroll even though it was based off a technique he hated when he learnt Kage Bunshin. He learnt Rasengan in a few weeks even though it was a very high level tech and only 3 other people had ever learnt it.

He picked up his elemental affinity in a matter of days (admittedly by cheating a bit :) ) then developed his own tech which is one of the most powerful offensive techs in the whole naruto world. note I said developed, not learnt because NO ONE had been able to combine rasengan and an element before him including the fourth who was hailed as the greatest shinobi genius ever.

He then PERFECTED sage mode in no time flat. We're not actually sure if anyone else ever perfected the mode because we've only seen Jaraiya use it.

So although Sasuke was called a genius, everything Naruto has done from the very first chapter has *suggested* he is something of a genius himself.

Also by direct comparison.... Naruto learnt to climb a tree using chakra at exactly the same speed as Sasuke...

Although I think Sasuke has needed to be given powers pretty rapidly and without big training arcs because he needed to catch up with Naruto who was miles ahead, I don't agree that Naruto's development has seemed wrong or contrived in any way.

If Sasuke was shown training in the same manner as Naruto then it would throw off the pace of the storyline and it would be hard to get in decent fights between him and other shinobi without totally forgetting Naruto for months at a time :).
[hr]

I have no problem with people learning things faster than others. I have a problem when it is done in such a way that it appears instant. A few pages back I posted how Sasuke could have gotten MS to my satisfaction. Here is an exchange I had with Ryr (the final post being the most important with respect to your question):

Basically, if Kishi framed MS slightly differently, he could have made MS seem less cheap and make Sasuke still be a genius.

I think Kishi is saying that the development of MS is related to emotions rather than training. Especially when it comes to Susanoo which is a bizzare technique all round since it feeds off life force not chakra and we're not entirely sure what element it uses and so on.

Sasuke has been shown to train hard for his lightning abilities and presumably other techs (eg his shuriken summon) with Oro for 2 and a half years. MS on the other hand is pitched as coming from the emotions of the user. The fact you have to kill a loved one to activate it sets the idea up.

SO, I don't personally mind the way Sasuke's MS has developed. Especially since he still seems to suck at TS which is probably because of his rage fueled battles in contrast to the calm way trhe master of the TS fought (Itachi).

So from that point of view he hasn't really been given mastery over MS for free. Just been able to boost his Susanoo by getting increasingly EMO.

Delbi

March 23, 2010, 10:30 PM

I have no problem with people learning things faster than others. I have a problem when it is done in such a way that it appears instant. A few pages back I posted how Sasuke could have gotten MS to my satisfaction. Here is an exchange I had with Ryr (the final post being the most important with respect to your question):

Basically, if Kishi framed MS slightly differently, he could have made MS seem less cheap and make Sasuke still be a genius.

I understand what you are saying, and essentially your gripe is only with Sussano. Ok, I can get that.

But to be honest, Sussano "awakening" seems to rely soley on Sasuke's emotions, and only once it's actually "awakened" does Sasuke use his skill to use it properly.

In this sense, we can liken Sussano to the Kyuubi. The angrier Sasuke gets, the more developed Sussano got. The more angry Naruto got, the stronger the Kyuubi got.

tobeulp

March 23, 2010, 10:57 PM

The argument was using a new technique right in battle without anything effort shown beforehand. We saw none of the training Naruto did for it. So if the definition for a "free gift" is gonna be using a brand new technique to win, Then the Kage Bunshin count too.

When did Sasuke acquire and master a technique right in the same fight?

-With his Amaterasu he first used it against the Hachibi with effort and later on against Ee did he manage to manipulate it.
-With Tsukuyomi, He used it on some random guy, Then on Kirabi who broke it, And finally against Danzo who also broke the first use. Only after applying past knowledge did it work on Danzo the second time.
-With Susanoo, Sasuke first formed the ribcage against Ee that lasted til Gaara interrupted, Then the skeleton form later against Gaara and gang that lasted for a short time and switched back to the ribcage, The skeleton form again against Danzo, Then the body after Danzo talked crap about Itachi that lasted for another while, And then finally the armor form for a few seconds against Kakashi.

The point being, Sasuke showed his MS techniques long before he was able to use them correctly and win a fight.

You should re read the manga chapter 1... Naruto didn't use it in an instant he actually train to use it.... http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/1/26/.... So no argument there already I have proof :p...

The Susanoo part is what you I call mastering it instantly in just mere seconds or few min Sasuke kept on upgrading it like he already knew all the forms....

I agree with jdw if Kishi just make Sasuke's growth more slowly then we will not have an argument here right now...
Most of us acknowledge Sasuke being a Genius but Kishi done to Sasuke is not agreeable even with Sasuke being a Super Genius Uchiha

TeAm#7FoReVer

March 24, 2010, 12:23 AM

I think people complaint about Sasuke power-ups because those powers and screen-time should belong for the hero, in this case Naruto.

I have nothing against Sage Mode neither the way Naruto obtained it but basically he improved all his abilities and got new ones in one week. That´s rush and kind of cheap. Furthermore, there is not an explanation (yet) about how he could throw away a FRS and expand it, even the frogs were surprised:

Shima: What incredible chakra... / Is this something you taught him, Tou-chan?
Fukasaku: No... this is my first time seeing it. / He never once used a thing like that during his training... Naruto-chan, what exactly are you trying to do...? (http://mangahelpers.com/t/cnet128/releases/8629)

Naruto showed a complete mastering over Sage Mode in his first fight, while Sasuke:

1. Fight against KB: no mastering over Amaterasu neither Tsukiyomi (if it was).
2. Fight against Raikage: mastering Amaterasu and showed an incomplete Susanoo and Enton.
3. Kage Summit: More control over an incomplete Susanoo.
4. Danzo: Mastering over an incomplete Susanoo and in an almost complete Susanoo. No mastering over Tsukiyomi.
5. Kakashi: Just a preview of a full Susanoo.

He never mastered his MS techniques (well, actually he has only mastered Amaterasu and the almost complete Susanoo) in the first fight, he has had to face a difficult and painful process which his eyesight paid the price. IMO, Sasuke power-ups make more sense than Naruto´s (except the hawk, maybe).

Again, I dont have nothing against Sage Mode, I think it is cool but people tend to overeact when it comes to Sasuke and his MS.

Weapon_X

March 24, 2010, 11:22 AM

Firstly Naruto learn kage bunshin by reading a scroll and we all know that many ninjas learn techniques just by reading scroll so saying it is a free gift is BS....

Most of you compare having Naruto free gifts over Sasuke having free gifts.... We can go on and on with arguments with that.... We can say Naruto have free gift because he is transplanted with the 9 tails... We can say Sasuke have free gift because he have sharingan.... So comparing them is pretty BS....

And saying learning techniques in Battle is fastest way to acquire a technique is not bad for me but acquiring it and mastered it at the same time is a big NO for me.... Because from what I see from Sasuke he acquire a technique and mastered it at the same time is BS that is why many of the Naruto readers are complaining about it....

Well wtf do you call "genius" then if this isn't genius?

Sasuke has the potential, mind, and the body to do these things. He is a intelligent ninja, not some random fodder rookie. Sasuke activated the Sharingan when he was 8, he did a Katon Jutsu when he was 8, his young years already show his genius when it comes to Ninjutsu. Sasuke is a quick learner AND he is good at improving the techniques that he learns, example, Chidori. Whether you like it or not, he is a Ninjutsu master.

shouryuujo

March 24, 2010, 11:25 AM

i think they are half free gifts. Under Oro he had to train and although he had the seal power it hindered him more than it helped and itachi removed that. The eye upgrade is a free gift and so are the couple "get out of death free" cards given by Zetsu and madara. Sasuke learned the MS through hard work but with EMS he can spam as much as his seemingly unlimited chakra can handle...

Lord Abortion

March 24, 2010, 08:01 PM

Another thing to consider about Sasuke and his abilities. Sasuke is a main character in the story, and as these things happen, they are usually stronger in ability and progression than other characters. Then to consider who he's beat. Chunin exam guy, Deidara, Sick Oro, Sick Itachi, Random ninjas, Random curse seal experiments and Danzou (and if you want to countNaruto).

He doesn't show "genius" level ability with all his techniques. In the world of electric attacks, he's above average for ninjas in the leaf, but there were nameless samurais that could use abilities that he could and he definitely wasn't on par with Raikage or Bee. His snake abilities were due to his assimilation of Oro (which I would consider gifted upon him). He's just showed the ability to summon something that will listen to him. He's not exactly the fastest, strongest nor does have the highest reserves of chakra. His genjutsu even with MS is far below par of what is generally thought of, especially when we consider the strength itachi had even while gravely ill.

The one thing that he actually has showed a great ability to use was fire techniques and amaterasu, we can consider that he's been using fire techniques since he was a small child and amaterasu is technically a form of fire.
[hr]

Question then. You don't like that Sasuke can learn trhing so fast, but what about Naruto? Was it ok for him to learn Kage Bushin in a night? Or to learn Sage Mode in like a week when Jiraiya couldn't in a lifetime? These seem very strange especially since Naruto has been seen as an idoit when it comes to these types of things. I don't know, just wondering.

I don't know, I don't mind it at all, but I just feel that some people are rather biased towards Sasuke for learning things quick, and not Naruto.

Kage Bunshin a little quick all though this was in the introduction of the story and I would give a little leeway to Kishi for doing it in this manner. When it comes to the sage mode, I wasn't so surprised. Essentially practitioners need a large store of chakra and the ability to balance and manage energy. Naruto has essentially been learning how to balance his chakra, physical and fox energy for years and the rasengan has been a platform to learn how to finely control chakra.

I think more of the effort was learning how to feel, balance and use natural energy, but he also had his clones to speed up his training. He just added a component to something he's been doing his whole life.

Rikudou King

March 24, 2010, 11:07 PM

You should re read the manga chapter 1... Naruto didn't use it in an instant he actually train to use it.... http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/1/26/.... So no argument there already I have proof :p... Yet we didn't see him actually training. If just being told he was training was good enough, Then Madara telling us the fight against the Kages were Sasuke's training should be just as good. So you neither accept that they aren't free gifts because Sasuke has been training them, Or else you must count Naruto's techniques as free gifts also.

The Susanoo part is what you I call mastering it instantly in just mere seconds or few min Sasuke kept on upgrading it like he already knew all the forms....

I agree with jdw if Kishi just make Sasuke's growth more slowly then we will not have an argument here right now...
Most of us acknowledge Sasuke being a Genius but Kishi done to Sasuke is not agreeable even with Sasuke being a Super Genius Uchiha What? It was shown that Susanoo's forms were connected to his emotions. Every time he got emotional, He was able to draw out more of Susanoo. And considering it's basically a summoning, It's a surprise Sasuke didn't pull the whole thing out at once. The entire reason it's going so fast is because Sasuke's in so many fights. Since it would never be materialized outside of battle, For it to be done more slowly would mean we would merely not see Sasuke fight for a while. Regardless, It would still take the same amount of time to learn it which ever path we choose.

Bonfire01

March 25, 2010, 09:01 PM

Yet we didn't see him actually training. If just being told he was training was good enough, Then Madara telling us the fight against the Kages were Sasuke's training should be just as good. So you neither accept that they aren't free gifts because Sasuke has been training them, Or else you must count Naruto's techniques as free gifts also.

What? It was shown that Susanoo's forms were connected to his emotions. Every time he got emotional, He was able to draw out more of Susanoo. And considering it's basically a summoning, It's a surprise Sasuke didn't pull the whole thing out at once. The entire reason it's going so fast is because Sasuke's in so many fights. Since it would never be materialized outside of battle, For it to be done more slowly would mean we would merely not see Sasuke fight for a while. Regardless, It would still take the same amount of time to learn it which ever path we choose.

I agree about the link to emotions but I think one of the reasons people get worked up about Sasuke's development of his Susanoo is they go on about how quickly he "learnt" it....

As far as I understand it Susanoo is awakened when you awaken the MS and have the ability to use amaterasu and TS. So, in a similar way to being able to see fast moving abjects or rapid seals for the standard sharingan it's something that your eyes can just do...

The fact that Susanoo has been coming out in stages actually shows more progression than was probably stricly neccesary. If we assume learning jutsus in the broader sense is about having the correct element and learning how to make the seals and mould the chakra. Susanoo on the other hand doesn't appear to have an element, doesn't need hand seals and feeds off of your life force rather than needing moulded chakra (according to the databook IIRC). So I don't think we should view it in the same way we view normal jutsu.

As far as Amaterasu goes.... fire techniques represent his primary affinity and the affinity of his clan. So before he awakened it he was already an expert in fire techniques. So for him to learn to use Amaterasu quickly seems pretty fair.

Then for the final part of his MS powerup he happened to be fairly crappy at TS. Itachi could stretch a minute into 3 days of torture and it's suggested he could kill with it, Sasuke can stretch someone's perception of time by a few seconds so their technique wears off.

So with the one MS technique which, in my opinion (so could be totally wrong) seems like it would take conventional training to master, Sasuke sucks at it. As long as EMS doesn't suddenly make him godlike at it i'm still happy enough with the ways Sasuke's MS was handled.

Also, just while i'm thinking about it, when Itachi poked Sasuke on the forehead to implant an instant firing off of Amaterasu when Sasuke saw Madara's face, that firing off of amaterasu might have helped Sasuke with developing the technique....

And I suppose, last of all.....

Assuming blindness from MS use is based on the number of times a technique is used.... Sasuke was about as blind as Itachi at the end of the last chapter. So by extension he must have used his MS techniques about as many times as Itachi... suggesting he'd had as much practice at using them as Itachi. I'm not really sure how else you're meant to train up those techniques apart from using them (with the exception of TS which would presumably improve if you became better at Genjutsu in general).

So using that logic I don't see what more Sasuke could really have done to train his MS without going blind even sooner. That is assuming he was already well versed in fire techniques.

OFC I couldn't find anything to prove losing your sight is based on the total number of times you use MS techniques. Both Itachi and Madara sugggest using it more makes your sight sealed faster but it could be accelerated by frequency or some other factor I guess.....

hakuthehedgehog

March 26, 2010, 04:47 PM

The fact that the MS powers appear whenever a person gets emotion is the key why most people consider the MS cheap: it is almost impossible no feel emotions at the bring of death, and due to the powers it gives, you not only escape death, but also manage to defeat the oponent when you were about to die.
Think about in an RPG: you are about do deal a finishing blow to an oponent.
Suddently, your oponent either gets much more attack/defensive power that he didn't have in the beggining of the battle or he worked for, and wins.
Honestly, how can you say that it doesn't sound cheap?!

Ryr

March 27, 2010, 01:58 PM

Emotion has always been parts and parcel of combat. A frenzied barbarian would simply attack with greater force than a pacified barbarian. So how is it unfair that Sasuke was becoming more aggressive as a result of his anger at the Konoha leadership.

niblack89

March 27, 2010, 04:33 PM

I hate it when they say the kyuubi is a free power up. Naruto doesn't know how to control the kyuubi. It comes out when he is distressed. He could destroy the leaf and all its people if its not in check, that doesn't seem like a free power up but a major problem.

Sasuke gets lots of free things. I wont cont the regular sharingan
-Curse mark
-MS and EMS
Not all of Sasuke powers are power ups but ever since part II he doesn't really train anymore his over all stats are the same.

Naruto trains from night to day for his gifts
everything he learned he trained for.

I'm not complaining about his power ups but come on the gut just has to look at you and you dead.

Ryr

March 28, 2010, 03:43 AM

Let us recall all the trivial arguments about how Sasuke's abilities is op:

1. Certain quarters claim that the sharingan abilities are overpowering.
Reality check: Every skill in the Narutoverse is overpowering.
Switching souls, controlling gravity, making nano-sized
bombs, absorbing chakra completely, blinking instantly
from one place to another, etc etc etc. So in relative
terms the sharingan is as overpowering as all other
skills in the series

2. Certain quarters claim that Sasuke learns his new skills too quickly.
Reality check: Sasuke has been learning quickly since chapter 1. In
one of the interviews involving Kakashi, he said it's
boring to teach Sasuke since he learns things too
quickly. So there you have it, learning things quickly is
one of Sasuke's traits since day one, and it's consistent
throughout the series.

3. Certain quarters claim that it's unfair for Sasuke to use his emotion to
his advantage in his fights
Reality check: Think about Kratos, if a barbarian is freaking pissed off
and in a frenzy state, he would attack with greater
force compared to another pacified barbarian. So yes,
emotion would contribute to a fighter's combat
performance. As it is right now Sasuke is freaking
pissed at Konoha's leaders, hence he is extremely
aggressive in his current fights.

hakuthehedgehog

March 28, 2010, 06:22 AM

Ryr

March 28, 2010, 07:05 AM

Susano is not like Gamabunta who have a mind on his own Sasuke is controlling it..

If you are saying that when a Character is super angry or pissed he can do anything

Can you provide any evidence on how Sasuke can 'do anything' simply because he was angry? Otherwise the whole argument is rubbish.

Being angry makes a person more aggressive, and all those aggressiveness manifest in the form of an evolved Susanoo. Similar to how a frenzied barbarian would attack with greater force.

As for training, it's for someone who does not have the brain power to learn from actual experience. A person who can simply learn new jutsus from actual combat has no need for regular training.

TeAm#7FoReVer

March 28, 2010, 08:00 AM

Seriously you people are missing my point.
I'm saying that Sasuke gets his skills in battle, when he didn't have them before.

Had he gained them trought some short of training (like virtual genjutsu training with madara for example), they whouldn't be as cheap.
Why? Because they whouldn't save him life multiple times in situations that he whould die otherwise.

And please, don't say that Naruto will have a free gift because of the senju, he didn't got those amazing genjutsu skills yet right (but he obtaining quite amazing taijutsu and ninjutsu skills, by training day and night without stopping)

Also, while Nagato gained the rin'negan by emotion and it saved his life once, he did have to train: he trained with Jiraya for 2 years, and more after it, otherwise Konan whouldn't know about Gedo Mazo.

While Naruto also has free gifts such as the Kyuubi, most of the time he trains for his combat skills, he doesn't spam the Kyuubi in a broken way the same way Sasuke spams his MS jutsu.

Finally, comparing the jutsu MS gives to other jutsu like soul switching or jutsu absorbing, most of the characters trained to have those abilities, they didn't gain them in battle and it saved their lives, and they aren't nowhere near as powerfull individually as the MS.

The rinnegan is a completely different doujutsu. MS is not a doujutsu which can be trained like the rinnegan, due to his drawbacks like blindness and the risk to die (for Susanoo); Pain can spam Shinra Tensei like a crazy for years and be fine.

Naruto doesnt spam Kyubbi because he cant control it, simple as that.

You are right those techniques are not as powerful as MS, but they can deadly if the user knows how to use it properly in battle: like shikamaru with his kage mane or like we saw recently with Fuu and Torune. All depend on the user.
----------
Tobi: (http://mangahelpers.com/t/cnet128/releases/16636) A Sharingan that can activate even Susanoo is a rarity... / I wouldn't want to let a nice pair of eyes like that slip through my fingers. // In fact, I wanted to give him the opportunity to train them up further in combat with the Five Kages... / It was I who sent him here. // I would have liked to have him weaken you to the point where I could take you hostage, as well... / ...but it looks like that was too much to expect.

That line proves that Sasuke trains in battle, it is already a manga fact.

jdw

March 28, 2010, 09:31 AM

The rinnegan is a completely different doujutsu. MS is not a doujutsu which can be trained like the rinnegan, due to his drawbacks like blindness and the risk to die (for Susanoo); Pain can spam Shinra Tensei like a crazy for years and be fine.

Naruto doesnt spam Kyubbi because he cant control it, simple as that.

You are right those techniques are not as powerful as MS, but they can deadly if the user knows how to use it properly in battle: like shikamaru with his kage mane or like we saw recently with Fuu and Torune. All depend on the user.
----------
Tobi: (http://mangahelpers.com/t/cnet128/releases/16636) A Sharingan that can activate even Susanoo is a rarity... / I wouldn't want to let a nice pair of eyes like that slip through my fingers. // In fact, I wanted to give him the opportunity to train them up further in combat with the Five Kages... / It was I who sent him here. // I would have liked to have him weaken you to the point where I could take you hostage, as well... / ...but it looks like that was too much to expect.

That line proves that Sasuke trains in battle, it is already a manga fact.

Indeed, but it isn't always terribly impressive. For instance I can be using a Kunai for the first time ever, I can go outside, toss a a single Kunai, and return home and say that I completed Kunai training. I can also show the second time that I toss a Kunai that I perfected Kunai throwing after my first throw, and throws 2-infinity exhibit my mastery. Training to mastery in under 2 minutes.

Jammin

March 28, 2010, 11:04 AM

I don't see how anyone can dispute Sasuke has gotten some of his powers for free or damn close to it.:blink

Exhibit A) Snake Summoning.

Sasuke never trained this, if he had he would still be able to do it. He magically got the ability when he absorbed Orochimaru, even though this is not a passive ability(it requires seals), and lost it when Orochimaru left him. Ability free of charge.

Exhibit B) Hawk Summoning.

At some point between his attack on Killer Bee and his attack on Danzou he gained the ability to summon birds. An ability he was never shown to give any time or effort into acquiring. Genius or not, pulling a summon out of thin air is a freebie.

Exhibit C) Sasuke's new-found poison immunity.

He wasn't immune when Orochimaru poisoned him. (http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/345/04/) So why is he immune now? Clearly a freebie to prevent there from being a easy way to take him down.

Exhibit D) Sasuke's chakra of EMOTION

Naruto can draw Chakra from the kyuubi so for him emotional state is related to his fighting power. Unless something similar is going on with Sasuke, he's been getting free chakra whenever he needs it. Otherwise he should have died of chakra exhaustion a long time ago.

----------------

With that said many of his abilities were gained by making deals with various devils(Orochimaru, Madara). The prices he paid for those was selling out his comrades among other things so i have no dispute with those. MK Sharingan stuff is the same deal, he paid a price. As long as some price was paid it isn't free.

The reason Sasuke's power is getting rapidly inflated is so that Naruto will look like the underdog before he beats Sasuke down. That's why he's getting so many abilities at such an absurd discount. Something that is absolutely necessary for him to compete with somebody like Naruto, who can pack several years worth of training into a single day as well as having Itachi's gift and the kyuubi in his corner. So at least there is a decent reason Sasuke is receiving so much plot charity:p

Garra seemed haxed to the max, before Naruto fought and defeated him.

Pain seemed haxed to the max, before Naruto fought and defeated him.

Now it's just Sasuke's turn.....

Rikudou King

March 28, 2010, 12:32 PM

Susano is not like Gamabunta who have a mind on his own Sasuke is controlling it.. Please take one moment and explain to me why you’re comparing Gamabunta and Susanoo? What exactly has Sasuke done with Susanoo that is so complex that you’re comparing it to a summoning? That most that have been done is him standing in it being protected. A few times he has moved the arms. So what action should he need to take time and learn?

If you all just read One Piece then you will know how genius Oda is compare to Kishi making the characters power up....
If you are saying that when a Character is super angry or pissed he can do anything because in terms of One piece Luffy is super pissed against the admirals but he can't do a thing because of difference in power level... I know that I should not compare it to One Piece but on all the things you all are saying is that Sasuke is a genius and in rage that is why he acquire techniques extremely fast.... Kishi just plot the Sasuke power up way too fast that most of its readers are not that convince... So in Kishi's terms whomever have the most hate is the strongest ^^ When has Sasuke’s anger allowed him to do something like beat someone he couldn‘t have normally?

Exhibit A) Snake Summoning.

Sasuke never trained this, if he had he would still be able to do it. He magically got the ability when he absorbed Orochimaru, even though this is not a passive ability(it requires seals), and lost it when Orochimaru left him. Ability free of charge. How do you know he never trained for summoning? The reasonable explanation for Sasuke not using any more snake summonings would be that he’s gotten a new summoning. Just because Sasuke rarely uses them doesn’t mean he doesn’t have them. Take the Itachi fight. Going by the idea that he got them from Orochimaru, Then he would have still had them for that fight. Yet he didn’t use them. So what’s the excuse?

Exhibit B) Hawk Summoning.

At some point between his attack on Killer Bee and his attack on Danzou he gained the ability to summon birds. An ability he was never shown to give any time or effort into acquiring. Genius or not, pulling a summon out of thin air is a freebie. Clearly was a freebie, No argument.

Exhibit C) Sasuke's new-found poison immunity.

He wasn't immune when Orochimaru poisoned him. (http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/345/04/) So why is he immune now? Clearly a freebie to prevent there from being a easy way to take him down. To be fair, Kakahsi was just guessing. That doesn’t mean he actually had it. Still, Why would Orochimamru give him an immunity to his own poisons? He knew he would need to take sauske by force, Which would also including using his own personal poison to stop him. That’s different from making him immune to other kind of poisons.

Exhibit D) Sasuke's chakra of EMOTION

Naruto can draw Chakra from the kyuubi so for him emotional state is related to his fighting power. Unless something similar is going on with Sasuke, he's been getting free chakra whenever he needs it. Otherwise he should have died of chakra exhaustion a long time ago. When has Sasuke gotten chakra whenever he needs it? Both the Itachi and Deidara fight show that Sasuke has plenty of chakra to use. The only two fights Sauske has gotten real emotional in were the Itachi fight and Danzo, Neither of which he was completely out of chakra in. So I don’t see where it was shown he suddenly got free chakra at.

shinsengumi

March 28, 2010, 01:44 PM

wrong, Sasuke has used snake techniques which were obviously taught to him by Orochimaru.

what is so "obvious" to you can not be supported by any evidence can it ? he didnt - learn - them ,he just absorbed orochimaru's power.just like the wasy orochimaru wanted to absorb sasuke and use his MS

although Sasuke does not use snake summons anymore, he is very much able to use them as he had the knowledge of the required seals.

no speculation please - knowing the seals isnt the only thing to perform a jutsu -otherwise every person can do every jutsu as long as they know the seals

just because it hasn't been shown, doesn't mean Sasuke magically got the summon out of thin air. Summoning jutsu cannot be activated unless you have a contract, handseals, or blood, excluding the Rinnegan. in the Danzou fight, we clearly saw Sasuke use his blood from his wound to summon the hawk in the heat of battle. that clearly indicates Sasuke has made a contract with the hawk(s).

then just tell me when,where,how, why didnt kishi care to show it ? not even mentioned ?

---------
-just because we didnt see doesnt mean it didnt happen - is the most stupid and meaningless arguement when you are talking about "imaginary" stories. ofcourse the mangaka always has the ultimate tool called his "ass" ,he can pull things out of it whenever he feels like but we as "the readers" are arguing against it's persuasiveness . "oh sasuke just got them while you were looking the other side so you couldnt see" ...just splendid ,what a brilliant way to develop a character

Exodi

March 28, 2010, 02:30 PM

dont be absurd

Are you saying Orochimaru didn't teach him snake techniques?
Considering who Orochimaru is, I'd say that's extremely plausible.

dont speculate - knowing the seals isnt the only thing to perform a jutsu -otherwise every person can do every jutsu as long as they know the seals

I will say that I don't think Sasuke can summon snakes like he could before. I always assumed his ability to summon snakes was because of the Curse Mark.

dont make things up - then just tell me when,where,how, why didnt kishi care to show it ? not even mentioned ?

---------
-just because we didnt see doesnt mean it didnt happen - is the most stupid and meaningless arguement when you are talking about "imaginary" stories. ofcourse the mangaka always has the ultimate tool called his "ass" ,he can pull things out of it whenever he feels like but we as "the readers" are arguing against it's persuasiveness . "oh sasuke just got them while you were looking the other side so you couldnt see" ...just splendid ,what a brilliant way to develop a character

I'm going to have to disagree. Saying "just because we didn't see it means it didn't happen" is an even MORE stupid and meaningless argument.

The point of an "imaginary" story is not only that the author uses his own imagination, but the audience uses their imagination, too. It's fiction, so of course liberties will be taken. You're supposed to assume (or not assume), and guess, and try and figure out things. That's story-telling.

Now, kisame123 says that Sasuke summoned the hawk the way we've seen summoning been done before. That's the evidence for his point.

Since Sasuke summons the hawk this way, we can assume that he most likely made a contract with the hawks, because that's how we know summoning works.

"But wait, Exodi! :o We didn't see Sasuke make the contract! There's no way he could have possibly done it!"

My answer to that: :notrust

shinsengumi

March 28, 2010, 03:12 PM

Are you saying Orochimaru didn't teach him snake techniques?
Considering who Orochimaru is, I'd say that's extremely plausible.

"Considering who Orochimaru is" , he would never teach his own unique snake-related abilities to any1.he is the white snake of rebirth, no1 else

I'm going to have to disagree. Saying "just because we didn't see it means it didn't happen" is an even MORE stupid and meaningless argument.

then its good that i didnt say anything like that ^^

Now, kisame123 says that Sasuke summoned the hawk the way we've seen summoning been done before. That's the evidence for his point.

Since Sasuke summons the hawk this way, we can assume that he most likely made a contract with the hawks, because that's how we know summoning works.

"But wait, Exodi! :o We didn't see Sasuke make the contract! There's no way he could have possibly done it!"

My answer to that: :notrust
then can you please answer those questions which are - when,where,how, why didnt kishi care to show it ? not even mentioned ?
you are talking as if i just said "i didnt see it so it didnt happen"
im trying to place it in the time-line ,trying to guess why sasuke didnt use it before.im also lecturing kishi for ever mentioning about it since only a phrase like "i need a summon" would do the job.we could then assume "oh so then sasuke decided to have a new summon" and accept the current situation without concerns but no, it had to be this way and that bird had to appear out of nowhere right??!!
and yet here people are forcefully pushing sense into it,saying otherwise is impossible so all those "necessery" stuff happened off-screen,kishi was just too lazy to tell about it

Exodi

March 28, 2010, 03:32 PM

"Considering who Orochimaru is" , he would never teach his own unique snake-related abilities to any1.he is the white snake of rebirth, no1 else

If Orochimaru was willing to give Sasuke power via the Cursed Seal, and willing to train him, then I don't see why it'd be impossible that he'd teach Sasuke a few things concerning snakes. I'm just saying it's possible.

then its good that i didnt say anything like that ^^

then can you please answer those questions which are - when,where,how, why didnt kishi care to show it ? not even mentioned ?
you are talking as if i just said "i didnt see it so it didnt happen"
im trying to place it in the time-line ,trying to guess why sasuke didnt use it before.im also lecturing kishi for ever mentioning about it since only a phrase like "i need a summon" would do the job.we could then assume "oh so then sasuke decided to have a new summon" and accept the current situation without concerns but no, it had to be this way and that bird had to appear out of nowhere right??!!
and yet here people are forcefully pushing sense into it,saying otherwise is impossible so all those "necessery" stuff happened off-screen,kishi was just too lazy to tell about it

This is exactly what I was talking about.

Is it REALLY necessary that we had to see Sasuke make the contract with the hawks? Did the author REALLY have to show you in order for you to understand that Sasuke could do it?

I think we are both smart enough to put two and two together, and I for one am not going to assume that Kishimoto didn't show us because he was "too lazy" (a sad argument, imo), but because there were far more important elements of the story to take care of.

jdw

March 28, 2010, 03:39 PM

Is it REALLY necessary that we had to see Sasuke make the contract with the hawks? Did the author REALLY have to show you in order for you to understand that Sasuke could do it?

It helps if Kishi shows it or at least alludes to it in some way to remove the stench of asspullery when it comes to main characters. For instance, Sasuke's "that jutsu" from the time at Oro's lair most likely became Kirin, and Naruto's "perhaps I can do it now" after learning sage mode became him throwing FRS. Sasuke's hawk wouldn't have seemed like an asspull right after the timeskip, because we all know he was training and obtaining jutsu. But it does seem like an asspull much later. We can assume for argument sake he didn't have the hawk when he faced Deidara, because it might have been somewhat useful and Sasuke showed great intellect in that fight. The way it is going now, Kishi can just spam out unknown jutsu for whatever comes up.

Jammin

March 28, 2010, 04:04 PM

I don't see how you can post without proper reading of the manga. reading is fundamental, I shouldn't have to waste my time looking through the chapters for you, next time do it yourself. Tsk Tsk flame-bating me will achieve nothing.:amuse

If you disagree with my take on things fine. You don't have to discuss this if you find it so unpleasant but it will take more than your displeasure to change my perspective.:)

Notice the summoning tattoo on Orochimaru's left arm. (http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/169/17/) After Sasuke's absorption of Orochimaru notice the snake summoning tattoo on Sasuke's left arm. (http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/363/13/) After Orochimaru is drawn out notice that the snake summoning tattoo is now noticeably absent from Sasuke's left arm. (http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/398/05/)

If he had learned the summoning ability instead of absorbed it, than he wouldn't have lost the ability to summon snakes when Orochimaru was drawn out, and yet that is exactly what happened. The hand seals Sasuke has used just underscore my point.... free abilities. Ultimately in the case of snake summoning it was an "easy come, easy go" situation.

The problem here isn't just that it wasn't shown it's that all of his time was accounted for.

After he fought Itachi he healed then went straight for Killer Bee, as proof of this he was in fact still injured during this fight. After his attack on Killer Bee he delivered Killer Bee's clone then healed and then went straight for Konoha, before being diverted to the summit by Madara.

He was either on his way to somewhere in a considerable hurry or healing at all times. So i don't see any opportunity for him to run off in search of a contract scroll(those things aren't just lying around everywhere you know).

This is not a small thing. Sakura isn't immune to poison and she's a medical expert. Naruto isn't immune to poison and he has superhuman healing abilities. Even Jiriaya wasn't immune to poison.

The fact that Sasuke suddenly is immune when he wasn't before, can only be seen as a free powerup given to toughen him up.

Rikudou King's statement is true though, this was Kakashi's guess and it could be Kakashi was just wrong about it.

It's funny how people like to throw Naruto in there as if that makes the chakra Sasuke gets any less free.:p

Naruto is a Jinchurichi every time he resonates with the Kyuubi he gets chakra. So there is always an easy explanation where he gets his. For Sasuke not so much....

As for when i'm mainly talking about the Danzou battle (http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/478/08-09/), "his hatred gives him power".

shinsengumi

March 28, 2010, 04:30 PM

This is exactly what I was talking about.

Is it REALLY necessary that we had to see Sasuke make the contract with the hawks? Did the author REALLY have to show you in order for you to understand that Sasuke could do it?

you missed my point again which @Jammin cleared and explained in my stead
when did he find that hawk ?
where did he find that hawk ?
it just doesnt fit in the time-line knowing that sasuke was either healing after a tough battle or rushing to a tough battle.

i was just trying to be sarcastic with my limited english when i said "why kishi didnt mention about the hawk?out of lazyness?? "
what i really meant was, he didnt tell because he just decided to create it recently.if it was in his mind for a period of time,i cant see why he would decide not to show any hints of it

I think we are both smart enough to put two and two together, and I for one am not going to assume that Kishimoto didn't show us because he was "too lazy" (a sad argument, imo), but because there were far more important elements of the story to take care of.

we are smart enough to put 15783 and 24645 together too (40428) so kishi can just skip all these parts and show the ending already right? that is the most important element of the story after all ~ again im trying to be sarcastic ~

Lord Abortion

March 28, 2010, 05:02 PM

It helps if Kishi shows it or at least alludes to it in some way to remove the stench of asspullery when it comes to main characters. For instance, Sasuke's "that jutsu" from the time at Oro's lair most likely became Kirin, and Naruto's "perhaps I can do it now" after learning sage mode became him throwing FRS. Sasuke's hawk wouldn't have seemed like an asspull right after the timeskip, because we all know he was training and obtaining jutsu. But it does seem like an asspull much later. We can assume for argument sake he didn't have the hawk when he faced Deidara, because it might have been somewhat useful and Sasuke showed great intellect in that fight. The way it is going now, Kishi can just spam out unknown jutsu for whatever comes up.

The hawk summoning is alluded to when Madara is at the VOTE and wonders whether or not Sasuke will metophorically remain a snake or become a hawk and we do see the hawk earlier on in the series.

http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/402/14-15/

And though I can't remember what issue it was, I'm pretty sure there was a cover with Sasuke riding a hawk on it.

kisame123

March 28, 2010, 05:04 PM

Tsk Tsk flame-bating me will achieve nothing.:amuse
If you disagree with my take on things fine. You don't have to discuss this if you find it so unpleasant but it will take more than your displeasure to change my perspective.:)
it's not flamebaiting at all, it's asking courtesy to keep yourself informed, so that I don't have to do it for you. nonetheless, I apologize if I have offended you. although it is heartening to see that you actually read the chapters, it's not enough to counter my arguments.

Notice the summoning tattoo on Orochimaru's left arm. (http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/169/17/) After Sasuke's absorption of Orochimaru notice the snake summoning tattoo on Sasuke's left arm. (http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/363/13/) After Orochimaru is drawn out notice that the snake summoning tattoo is now noticeably absent from Sasuke's left arm. (http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/398/05/)

If he had learned the summoning ability instead of absorbed it, than he wouldn't have lost the ability to summon snakes when Orochimaru was drawn out, and yet that is exactly what happened. The hand seals Sasuke has used just underscore my point.... free abilities. Ultimately in the case of snake summoning it was an "easy come, easy go" situation.
the snake summoning tatoo, as the name suggests, was a tatoo. as you can clearly see, Kabuto drew the tatoo on Orochimaru's arm. it was drawn on his body despite having the powers of the white snake, so it certainly doesn't come with the package as you are suggesting. nonetheless, I've taken the liberty of having gone through the exact moments in which Sasuke uncovers his arm and there is nothing to suggest that the tatoo disappeared after Orochimaru's removal. the bandages Sasuke conveniently cover his arms, so there's no proof of the tatoo being there even when Orochimaru's powers were within him.
here you can see Sasuke's arm covered by bandages:
- http://read.mangashare.com/Naruto/chapter-387/page005.html
here you can see Orochimaru being extracted:
- http://read.mangashare.com/Naruto/chapter-393/page001.html
as you can see, there is no proof that the tatoo disappeared after Orochimaru was extracted. however, there is proof that the tatoo was drawn on using blood in the example you gave me. it is the same process through which Jiraiya, Tsunade, Naruto have summoned their animals and since they use blood, they all have contracts.

the purpose of the tatoo was to summon Manda, which is dead after the Deidara battle. that tatoo conveniently disappears or at least, does not make any more appearances after Deidara. Orochimaru was able to summon other lesser snakes from his own body without a tatoo, which apparently Sasuke can do as well, albeit to a lesser degree. the fact that Sasuke can't summon the exact kind of snakes or use the exact kind jutsu Orochimaru does, is actually good evidence that Sasuke used his own jutsu and not that of Orochimaru's arsenal. for example, Sasuke was not able to use the mass hidden snake arms jutsu Orochimaru used against Kyuubi Naruto.

why doesn't Sasuke summon snakes? after Itachi, Sasuke undergoes a change in which his personality and theme reflects that as a hawk. it was a significant symbolic moment, as Madara questioned whether Sasuke would remain a "snake" or become a "hawk". sticking to that theme, Kishimoto has brought Sasuke much more closer to hawks and refrains from serpent references. that includes the jutsu for which Sasuke used a handseal to activate, which you are ignoring. even after Sasuke has been purified of Orochimaru, technically there is nothing stopping him from using the hidden snake arms jutsu in his battles. Sasuke knows the handseal(s) involved and can utilize that technique anytime he wishes, yet he doesn't because he has "become a hawk".
[/QUOTE]The problem here isn't just that it wasn't shown it's that all of his time was accounted for.

After he fought Itachi he healed then went straight for Killer Bee, as proof of this he was in fact still injured during this fight. After his attack on Killer Bee he delivered Killer Bee's clone then healed and then went straight for Konoha, before being diverted to the summit by Madara.

He was either on his way to somewhere in a considerable hurry or healing at all times. So i don't see any opportunity for him to run off in search of a contract scroll(those things aren't just lying around everywhere you know).[/QUOTE]
do not bother going into unnecessary details about travel and time, even Madara had remarked that he was caught off guard with the Hawk summon and questioned where Sasuke got the contract from. Kishimoto, himself, is focusing on that minor detail which implies that there will be some interesting details revealed later on. otherwise, Madara would have never made that remark. nonetheless, you still cannot disprove that Sasuke has made a contract with the hawk as all summons require contracts and blood, of which Sasuke has already shown the latter requirement. you cannot summon with blood unless you have a contract, that is the virtue of summoning, it is the mechanical process involved and no matter what you say, it is an absolute truth in the manga.
[/QUOTE]This is not a small thing. Sakura isn't immune to poison and she's a medical expert. Naruto isn't immune to poison and he has superhuman healing abilities. Even Jiriaya wasn't immune to poison.

The fact that Sasuke suddenly is immune when he wasn't before, can only be seen as a free powerup given to toughen him up.
[/QUOTE]
no, it was stated that Orochimaru already had the antidote to counter Shizune's poisons or anything derived from that. Shizune had already been revealed as a poison specialist during her brief skirmish with Kabuto in front of Orochimaru. her specialization in poison likely coupled with tsunade's medical knowledge, would have been a threat. Orochimaru's knowledge and antidote was imparted to Sasuke during his training, in the chance that he will be hunted down as a missin nin, which is exactly what is happening here, and will likely be exposed to the poison. in order to protect his future vessel, obviously the same kind of poison was injected into Sasuke and then an antidote was applied to not only heal him, but give him resistance and eventual immunity. it's not sudden, as Kakashi remarked, it happened during the training period he spent with Orochimaru. it was a pretty ingenious idea, considering that Sasuke & Orochimaru knew that Konoha would send hunter nin after him and would likely send Shizune's poison as well.
[/QUOTE]It's funny how people like to throw Naruto as if that makes the chakra Sasuke gets any less free.:p

Naruto is a Jinchurichi every time he resonates with the Kyuubi he gets chakra. So there is always an easy explanation where he gets his. For Sasuke not so much....
As for when i'm mainly talking about the Danzou battle (http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/478/08-09/), "his hatred gives him power".[/QUOTE]
nothing different from the "will of fire" reference I pulled up for you. Naruto is a jinchuuriki, but he did not show the usual characteristics and appearance that follows Kyuubi chakra. that was his own chakra and the manga referred to it as the "will of fire" and Sasuke even clarified that it was chakra. only at this point in the battle ( here http://read.mangashare.com/Naruto/chapter-134/page011.html ) was the Kyuubi emphasized as Naruto changed apperance. likewise, Sasuke inherited the chakra of Rikudou Sennin and his chakra was considered to be cursed for even Kyuubi's own standards. this was emphasized since virtually the beginning of Part II, it's nothing new.

That's the only part I would disagree with after reading your post. Sasuke does a use a technique that Oro had, the body shedding one.
thank you for pointing that out for me. however, it's important to distinguish snake techniques from the power of the white snake. although there may be similar features between both, there is a difference. the powers of the white snake reflect regeneration, rebirth, and immortality. the body shedding technique is known as oral rebirth and is one of the regenerative and healing abilities of the power of the white snake. the snake techniques such as summoning and lesser snakes for actual combative use are activated through handseals or blood-summoning process. as I've mentioned it's important to note that Sasuke cannot do the massive snake jutsu that Orochimaru used against Naruto. ( http://read.mangashare.com/Naruto/chapter-294/page003.html )

And in so saying you not so subtly imply that am in fact less well informed than yourself. Making it a thinly veiled insult, hence the term "flame baiting".:amuse

Snakes----------

Um actually there is proof about the snake summoning and it was in my previous post(before (http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/363/13/), after (http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/398/05/)).

The tattoo was not drawn by Kabuto at the time, all he did was streak a line of blood across it in order to activate it. That thing has always been on Orochimaru's left arm and he used it to summon snakes. Here's another close up of it, it's a tattoo not body paint. (http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/344/01/)

As i said before "easy come, easy go":p

Birds----------------

Since when have i disputed that he signed a bird contract? My point is and ever shall be, that he had no real opportunity search for it. So, however he got it, it was cheaply gotten compared to everyone else's summons. Hence freebie.

Poison immunity---------

Is Sasuke not paralyzed here by poison? (http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/345/04/) Yet suddenly Kakashi is certain he's resistant to it. (http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/485/08/)

I don't remember it being stated that Orochimaru was immune to all Tsunades poisons but in his case it wouldn't surprise me as that is one of his specialties. In Sasuke's case he isn't immune to poison one minute and the next he is. Hence the freebie.:notrust

Chakra of EMOTION--------

First off Naruto's chakra was in no way depleted in that scene you cited (http://read.mangashare.com/Naruto/chapter-133/page015.html), that was just him going all out. Again though, bringing up Naruto is nothing but dodging the issue. Where Naruto does or doesn't get his chakra, says nothing about where Sasuke gets his.

When gains tremendous power when he is feeling emotional or hateful, yet in his case there is nothing to explain it. In Naruto's case there is the kyuubi but for Sasuke it as of now defies explanation. Hence freebie.:tem
you clearly have nothing more to add or anything constructive to say... I think we're done here.

Lord Abortion

March 28, 2010, 05:29 PM

Orochimaru was able to summon other lesser snakes from his own body without a tatoo, which apparently Sasuke can do as well, albeit to a lesser degree. the fact that Sasuke can't summon the exact kind of snakes or use the exact kind jutsu Orochimaru does, is actually good evidence that Sasuke used his own jutsu and not that of Orochimaru's arsenal. for example, Sasuke was not able to use the mass hidden snake arms jutsu Orochimaru used against Kyuubi Naruto.

That's the only part I would disagree with after reading your post. Sasuke does a use a technique that Oro had, the body shedding one.

jdw

March 28, 2010, 05:38 PM

The hawk summoning is alluded to when Madara is at the VOTE and wonders whether or not Sasuke will metophorically remain a snake or become a hawk and we do see the hawk earlier on in the series.

http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/402/14-15/

And though I can't remember what issue it was, I'm pretty sure there was a cover with Sasuke riding a hawk on it.

No, that doesn't work in a way to say Sasuke will obtain a hawk, imo.

As for the page you are talking about with Sasuke on a hawk, Kakashi is also shown on a frog and that has yet to happen.....Anyway, the other stuff (that jutsu, etc) happened in the manga.

Delbi

March 28, 2010, 05:58 PM

Just to point something out, Sasuke has used two types of snake summoning in the past I believe.

1) Snake summons that come straight out of his skin like they did with Orochimaru. This certainly has to do with Orochimaru's spirit, and the white snake Sasuke absorbed into himself.

2) Sasuke had the summoning tattoo on his arm and used blood to summon snakes.

- This right here tells us something, because if Sasuke is using his blood, that means he previously made contact with the snakes for summoning and signed a contract like Naruto did with the frogs.

- Now, we could argue that Orochimaru's influence in Sasuke's body is what allowed Sasuke to summon the snakes. However, Sasuke still used his blood, not Orochimaru's. And unless he had his entire DNA structure change from absorbing Orochimaru, his blood =/= Orochimaru's blood.

- Logically then, Sasuke must have signed a snake contract at some point with Orochimaru, which makes sense afterall.

So, while Sasuke absorbing Orochimaru allowed him to use snakes in a way only Orochimaru did, I don't think that's what hooked him up with the snakes to begin with. Could be wrong though, who knows.

Jammin

March 28, 2010, 06:00 PM

it's not flamebaiting at all, it's asking courtesy to keep yourself informed, so that I don't have to do it for you. although it is heartening to see that you actually read the chapters, it's not enough to counter my arguments. And in so saying you imply that i am, in fact, less well informed than yourself. Making it a thinly veiled insult, hence the term "flame baiting".:amuse

Snakes----------

Um actually there is proof about the snake summoning tattoo disappeared when Orochimaru was drawn out and it was in my previous post(before (http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/363/13/), after (http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/398/05/)).

The tattoo was not drawn by Kabuto at the time, all he did was streak a line of blood across it in order to activate it. That thing has always been on Orochimaru's left arm and he used it to summon snakes. Here's another close up of it, it's a tattoo not body paint. (http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/344/01/)

As i said before "easy come, easy go":p

Birds----------------

Since when have i disputed that he signed a bird contract? My point is and ever shall be, that he had no real opportunity to search for it. So, however he got it, it was cheaply gotten compared to everyone else's summons. Hence freebie.

Poison immunity---------

Is Sasuke not paralyzed here by poison? (http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/345/04/) Yet suddenly Kakashi is certain he's resistant to it. (http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/485/08/)

I don't remember it being stated that Orochimaru was immune to all Tsunades poisons but in his case it wouldn't surprise me as that is one of his specialties. In Sasuke's case he isn't immune to poison one minute and the next he is. Hence the freebie.:notrust

Chakra of EMOTION--------

First off Naruto's chakra was in no way depleted in that scene you cited (http://read.mangashare.com/Naruto/chapter-133/page015.html), that was just him going all out. Again though, bringing up Naruto is nothing but dodging the issue. Where Naruto does or doesn't get his chakra, says nothing about where Sasuke gets his.

Sasuke gains tremendous power when he is feeling emotional or hateful, yet in his case there is nothing to explain where it comes from. In Naruto's case there is the kyuubi but for Sasuke it, as of now, defies explanation. Hence freebie.:tem

Delbi

March 28, 2010, 06:03 PM

@Jammin
As far as Sasuke being immune to poison, Tsuande mentioned Orochimaru may have upgraded his body early on. Kakashi only goes on to confirm that fact in recent chapters.

Tell me, would Orochimaru give Sasuke the antidote to his own poison, thus making Sasuke immune to something only Orochimaru has? That would be kind of stupid, would it not?

Is it not possible that Sasuke is immune to some poisons, and not others?

As for Sasuke's chakra increase, this IMO, happened for a number of reasons.

1) Sasuke lost the CS. I'm not sure where it is, but in the Chunnin exam arc, Kakashi told Sasuke the CS would only hinder his growth. Guess what, Kakashi was right.

2) The awakening of whatever "evil" is inside of Sasuke (me thinks its half of the Kyuubi) is giving Sasuke more power. We can hardly call that a freebie without more information.

Jammin

March 28, 2010, 06:09 PM

@delbi
Yes, it is quite possible he is immune to some poisons and not others but in that case the problem becomes that the whole thing stops making sense because practically speaking if you break it down to specific poisons that means that all Sakura or Tsunade would have to do is make a new poison and Sasuke would be totally vulnerable to it. Which poison experts would almost certainly do on a regular basis anyway.

So you see it either is an overall thing or it isn't. If it is then it makes sense but it seems a little contradictory to past events. If it isn't than poisoning Sasuke wouldn't even be hard and it kinda makes Kakashi look like a fool.

-------------

As for the Sasuke's inner secret explanation of the "power of emotion", in my first post of all this i actually mentioned that. If Sasuke has some deep dark source of power like Naruto then his "power of emotion" makes sense but if he doesn't then it's a freebie. As it stands there is no explanation which is why i put it on the list.

-SageNaruto-28

March 28, 2010, 06:37 PM

I voted "Free Gifts"

Really? sasuke has gotten power-ups thats ok, but in so little time? come on.
It takes the main character (Naruto in case some of you have forgoten) years or months to get a power-up. Naruto trained for Sage Mode and rasengan even though he had one or two surprises on his fight with pain. Not a lot like sasuke. He showed us the flying rasengan, but he trained for the air element with kakashi before. Sasuke has not killed anyone with his power-ups yet. Yes i said it.

Kaiten

March 28, 2010, 06:47 PM

Please avoid baiting and bashing. Friendly debate and discussion are welcome; antagonism, name calling, etc. will not be tolerated. Any further baiting, baiting, and/or flaming will be deleted at staff discretion. Thanks.

Delbi

March 28, 2010, 07:08 PM

@delbi
Yes, it is quite possible he is immune to some poisons and not others but in that case the problem becomes that the whole thing stops making sense because practically speaking if you break it down to specific poisons that means that all Sakura or Tsunade would have to do is make a new poison and Sasuke would be totally vulnerable to it. Which poison experts would almost certainly do on a regular basis anyway.

So you see it either is an overall thing or it isn't. If it is then it makes sense but it seems a little contradictory to past events. If it isn't than poisoning Sasuke wouldn't even be hard and it kinda makes Kakashi look like a fool.

Well, we don't know exactly what made up Orochimaru's poison that made it different from Tsuande's. It could be some kind of super advanced neuro-toxin or some shit, who knows. Orochimaru may be familiar with certain ingrediants that most poisons use, and thus made Sasuke immune to those, but his own poison could be something entirely different that only has to do with the white snake. He was a genius afterall, and his knowledge of the human body and modification is huge, so its possible he created a poison that Tsuande couldn't.

Rikudou King

March 29, 2010, 12:45 AM

"Considering who Orochimaru is" , he would never teach his own unique snake-related abilities to any1.he is the white snake of rebirth, no1 else Orochimaru taught Anko several of his snake techniques, So I see no reason he wouldn't have done the same for his new favorite Sasuke.

Ryr

March 29, 2010, 05:25 AM

I never complain about Naruto's Kyubi chakra being a 'get-out-of chibaku tensei' freebie.

But people are complaining about Sasuke's freaking eagle?

So its' ok for Naruto's emotion to pull out his kyubi chakra, but it's not ok for Sasuke's emotion to amplify his aggression? Heh.

Xerous

March 29, 2010, 10:09 AM

it's not flamebaiting at all, it's asking courtesy to keep yourself informed, so that I don't have to do it for you. nonetheless, I apologize if I have offended you. although it is heartening to see that you actually read the chapters, it's not enough to counter my arguments.

the snake summoning tatoo, as the name suggests, was a tatoo. as you can clearly see, Kabuto drew the tatoo on Orochimaru's arm. it was drawn on his body despite having the powers of the white snake, so it certainly doesn't come with the package as you are suggesting. nonetheless, I've taken the liberty of having gone through the exact moments in which Sasuke uncovers his arm and there is nothing to suggest that the tatoo disappeared after Orochimaru's removal. the bandages Sasuke conveniently cover his arms, so there's no proof of the tatoo being there even when Orochimaru's powers were within him.
here you can see Sasuke's arm covered by bandages:
- http://read.mangashare.com/Naruto/chapter-387/page005.html
here you can see Orochimaru being extracted:
- http://read.mangashare.com/Naruto/chapter-393/page001.html
as you can see, there is no proof that the tatoo disappeared after Orochimaru was extracted. however, there is proof that the tatoo was drawn on using blood in the example you gave me. it is the same process through which Jiraiya, Tsunade, Naruto have summoned their animals and since they use blood, they all have contracts.

the purpose of the tatoo was to summon Manda, which is dead after the Deidara battle. that tatoo conveniently disappears or at least, does not make any more appearances after Deidara. Orochimaru was able to summon other lesser snakes from his own body without a tatoo, which apparently Sasuke can do as well, albeit to a lesser degree. the fact that Sasuke can't summon the exact kind of snakes or use the exact kind jutsu Orochimaru does, is actually good evidence that Sasuke used his own jutsu and not that of Orochimaru's arsenal. for example, Sasuke was not able to use the mass hidden snake arms jutsu Orochimaru used against Kyuubi Naruto.

why doesn't Sasuke summon snakes? after Itachi, Sasuke undergoes a change in which his personality and theme reflects that as a hawk. it was a significant symbolic moment, as Madara questioned whether Sasuke would remain a "snake" or become a "hawk". sticking to that theme, Kishimoto has brought Sasuke much more closer to hawks and refrains from serpent references. that includes the jutsu for which Sasuke used a handseal to activate, which you are ignoring. even after Sasuke has been purified of Orochimaru, technically there is nothing stopping him from using the hidden snake arms jutsu in his battles. Sasuke knows the handseal(s) involved and can utilize that technique anytime he wishes, yet he doesn't because he has "become a hawk".
The problem here isn't just that it wasn't shown it's that all of his time was accounted for.

After he fought Itachi he healed then went straight for Killer Bee, as proof of this he was in fact still injured during this fight. After his attack on Killer Bee he delivered Killer Bee's clone then healed and then went straight for Konoha, before being diverted to the summit by Madara.

He was either on his way to somewhere in a considerable hurry or healing at all times. So i don't see any opportunity for him to run off in search of a contract scroll(those things aren't just lying around everywhere you know).[/QUOTE]
do not bother going into unnecessary details about travel and time, even Madara had remarked that he was caught off guard with the Hawk summon and questioned where Sasuke got the contract from. Kishimoto, himself, is focusing on that minor detail which implies that there will be some interesting details revealed later on. otherwise, Madara would have never made that remark. nonetheless, you still cannot disprove that Sasuke has made a contract with the hawk as all summons require contracts and blood, of which Sasuke has already shown the latter requirement. you cannot summon with blood unless you have a contract, that is the virtue of summoning, it is the mechanical process involved and no matter what you say, it is an absolute truth in the manga.
[/QUOTE]This is not a small thing. Sakura isn't immune to poison and she's a medical expert. Naruto isn't immune to poison and he has superhuman healing abilities. Even Jiriaya wasn't immune to poison.

The fact that Sasuke suddenly is immune when he wasn't before, can only be seen as a free powerup given to toughen him up.
[/QUOTE]
no, it was stated that Orochimaru already had the antidote to counter Shizune's poisons or anything derived from that. Shizune had already been revealed as a poison specialist during her brief skirmish with Kabuto in front of Orochimaru. her specialization in poison likely coupled with tsunade's medical knowledge, would have been a threat. Orochimaru's knowledge and antidote was imparted to Sasuke during his training, in the chance that he will be hunted down as a missin nin, which is exactly what is happening here, and will likely be exposed to the poison. in order to protect his future vessel, obviously the same kind of poison was injected into Sasuke and then an antidote was applied to not only heal him, but give him resistance and eventual immunity. it's not sudden, as Kakashi remarked, it happened during the training period he spent with Orochimaru. it was a pretty ingenious idea, considering that Sasuke & Orochimaru knew that Konoha would send hunter nin after him and would likely send Shizune's poison as well.
[/QUOTE]It's funny how people like to throw Naruto as if that makes the chakra Sasuke gets any less free.:p

Naruto is a Jinchurichi every time he resonates with the Kyuubi he gets chakra. So there is always an easy explanation where he gets his. For Sasuke not so much....
As for when i'm mainly talking about the Danzou battle (http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/478/08-09/), "his hatred gives him power".[/QUOTE]
nothing different from the "will of fire" reference I pulled up for you. Naruto is a jinchuuriki, but he did not show the usual characteristics and appearance that follows Kyuubi chakra. that was his own chakra and the manga referred to it as the "will of fire" and Sasuke even clarified that it was chakra. only at this point in the battle ( here http://read.mangashare.com/Naruto/chapter-134/page011.html ) was the Kyuubi emphasized as Naruto changed apperance. likewise, Sasuke inherited the chakra of Rikudou Sennin and his chakra was considered to be cursed for even Kyuubi's own standards. this was emphasized since virtually the beginning of Part II, it's nothing new.

thank you for pointing that out for me. however, it's important to distinguish snake techniques from the power of the white snake. although there may be similar features between both, there is a difference. the powers of the white snake reflect regeneration, rebirth, and immortality. the body shedding technique is known as oral rebirth and is one of the regenerative and healing abilities of the power of the white snake. the snake techniques such as summoning and lesser snakes for actual combative use are activated through handseals or blood-summoning process. as I've mentioned it's important to note that Sasuke cannot do the massive snake jutsu that Orochimaru used against Naruto. ( http://read.mangashare.com/Naruto/chapter-294/page003.html )

you clearly have nothing more to add or anything constructive to say... I think we're done here.[/QUOTE]

that tattoo was already on orochimarus arm:notrust are you not paying attention
[hr]
only donated the line of blood http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/169/17/

M3J

March 29, 2010, 11:42 AM

Wouldn't it be possible Sasuke got the hawk summon way before Part II began? Or when he was training with Orochimaru? I doubt Zetsu and/or Madara kept eyes on Sasuke 24/7, even during his younger years, soooo. Questioning Sasuke getting ability to summon hawk is, in my opinion, akin to questioning the Three Sannin's ability to summon their own respective species or questioning Sandaime being able to summon Enma as we never saw them sigh contract or learn how to summon.

I dislike Sasuke, yet I still think his powerups weren't free. Maybe the contract was, but that would apply to everyone else as all they had to do was sign the contract in their name in blood and learn how to summon, as well as chakra control needed to summon.
If Sasuke was an idiot, I'd agree that he got free powerups, but he's a genius. Him mastering Amaterasu in just two or three uses makes sense just as Naruto being unable to control his chakra well enough to master rasengan with one hand makes sense. We've seen proof of his intelligence and ability to master or learn jutsu quickly; that's what being a genius is. Learning quickly enough, even after one usage. People like Shikamaru or Neji can do the same as well. And Neji taught himself the main clan's techniques, while Sasuke had some help in learning his first katon jutsu, chidori, and even using Mangekyo.

Lelo

March 29, 2010, 11:49 AM

to me having special abilities is a gift. How they get it doesnt matter. And nothings free. Sasuke is a great fighter, I bet he barely sleeps cuz hes always training to get stronger.

jdw

March 29, 2010, 11:50 AM

M3J

March 29, 2010, 11:55 AM

I think Sasuke was conserving chakra. And he was using the sword to test whether his raiton could disarm the mines in the ground and probably needed to be in contact with the sword to keep raiton going. He may not also have had enough time to summon a hawk, especially against Deidara's explosives. He realized he needed chakra to use raiton to diffuse the bombs and wanted to conserve as much as possible and probably thought of using Manda to protect him as a backup.

To be honest, it seems unlikely to me too as he could have used the hawk many times before, like when he was trapped in Haku's ice mirrors or possibly against Orochimaru in Forest of Death. I'm also wondering whether the cursed seal made his chakra control worse to be able to summon the right animal or whether the seal/seal for snakes limited who/what he could summon.

Ryr

March 29, 2010, 11:56 AM

Sasuke is a great fighter, I bet he barely sleeps cuz hes always training to get stronger.

I think the above is one of the most reasonable comments so far. It's more reasonable than, say, complaining about Sasuke's freaking eagle - all the time while Naruto was with 3 giant frogs and a certain powerful fox when he fought against Nagato.

jdw

March 29, 2010, 12:02 PM

M3J

March 29, 2010, 12:25 PM

Wings from cursed seal seemed easier than summoning a hawk though, even with one wing, I think. And at the time he needed the hawk, he was probably low on chakra. He was using the sword to avoid more mines by jumping on it as well as use it jump higher so his chidori can reach. Deidara even states Sasuke (http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/361/02/) was out of chakra, which might contribute to him reverting to CS2 and using snakes as a makeshift wing.
I was wrong though, the sword was already infused (http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/361/17/) with chidori when it stabbed the mine, Sasuke never needed to touch the sword to pump his chakra. He used it as a base to jump to be able to get within Deidara's range. So you were right.

This is an example (http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/361/15/) of Sasuke being a genius against Deidara. He saw and analyzed Deidara's handseals and figured out their weakness, or guessed at it.

Rikudou King

March 29, 2010, 12:29 PM

About the hawk summoning, Considering they took time to go back into Kumo for Suigetsu's sword, There probably would have been some time between them catching Kirabi and the time they headed to Konoha.

The thing that really needs to be answered is how a summoning is originally gain in the manga. I mean, Anime-wise, Sasuke's gaining a hawk fits just fine.

darkprince0521

March 29, 2010, 08:03 PM

M3J

March 29, 2010, 08:34 PM

imo summoning a hawk would have been easier than using a broken wing in a roundabout way to attack Deidara. and about sasuke being low on chakra, as many said, let's say sasuke summoned manda using his own chakra, then we can say summoning the boss snake should have taken more chakra than summoning an average hawk.

He had no choice to but summon Manda. He knew that Deidara was gonna self-destruct and thus would be taken out of the battle, and supposedly Tobi would be killed in the blast too, so he didn't feel the need to conserve chakra. He and Deidara have stated/confirmed they were low on chakra to out of chakra.

lexx

March 29, 2010, 08:57 PM

Sasuke's power-ups aren't necessarily free...we just don't see any of his training, since he's not the protagonist. You can say much the same about any of the other characters in the story: you don't see how/when they get their own powers unless they're being featured by the story.

Thank heavens we don't see Sasuke's training. Naruto's training alone takes up so much ****ing time and panels.

Also: Kishi's been throwing elements into the plot for a while now without fully expanding on them in the manga. I suspect the aim of these unexplored plot threads is to give the anime something to do when it goes into filler. You just know there's going to be a "hawk" episodes somewhere, just like that godforsaken "adventures of the self-summoning Jiraiya" bullcrap.

darkprince0521

March 29, 2010, 09:20 PM

He had no choice to but summon Manda. He knew that Deidara was gonna self-destruct and thus would be taken out of the battle, and supposedly Tobi would be killed in the blast too, so he didn't feel the need to conserve chakra. He and Deidara have stated/confirmed they were low on chakra to out of chakra.

he was out of chakra, and now you are saying that he was conserving chakra? isn't that conflicting? summoning a boss snake won't be a small task, and chakra required for that is huge. unless sasuke was faking his fight, then he was out of chakra.

and as you said, both of them confirmed they are low on chakra. and we see chunnin exam naruto who had most chakra out of his generation and his reserve is higher than most normal ninjas, he still couldn't summon Gamabunata using his own chakra back then. he had to use Kyuubi's chakra. summoning manda would take similar if not more chakra than that. so does it mean that while sasuke has that much chakra to spend, he still considers himself to be out of chakra? then i wonder what will be the condition when he has his full reserve.... :blink

M3J

March 29, 2010, 09:29 PM

he was out of chakra, and now you are saying that he was conserving chakra? isn't that conflicting? summoning a boss snake won't be a small task, and chakra required for that is huge. unless sasuke was faking his fight, then he was out of chakra.

and as you said, both of them confirmed they are low on chakra. and we see chunnin exam naruto who had most chakra out of his generation and his reserve is higher than most normal ninjas, he still couldn't summon Gamabunata using his own chakra back then. he had to use Kyuubi's chakra. summoning manda would take similar if not more chakra than that. so does it mean that while sasuke has that much chakra to spend, he still considers himself to be out of chakra? then i wonder what will be the condition when he has his full reserve.... :blink

He was conserving chakra before, probably. Why would he summon a hawk when he needed all chakra he could get to use raiton to disarm the bomb? Conserving chakra can mean out of chakra; it's like conserving food, you use it sparingly but still run out of it.

Deidara stated that, I think. He probably based it on Sasuke panting and being all tired. And we have to remember, Sasuke has better chakra control than Naruto, it would make sense despite being low on chakra, he has ability to summon Bunta.

kisame123

March 30, 2010, 02:22 PM

Snakes----------
Um actually there is proof about the snake summoning tattoo disappeared when Orochimaru was drawn out and it was in my previous post(before (http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/363/13/), after (http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/398/05/)).

The tattoo was not drawn by Kabuto at the time, all he did was streak a line of blood across it in order to activate it. That thing has always been on Orochimaru's left arm and he used it to summon snakes. Here's another close up of it, it's a tattoo not body paint. (http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/344/01/)
As i said before "easy come, easy go":p
there is no proof that the tattoo is a part of the power of the white snake. that tattoo is a tattoo it was drawn on Orochimaru's arm. as for Kabuto drawing the tattoo, I can clearly see that myself in the manga, what Kabuto is doing is refreshing it with new blood in the center of the tattoo, which most likely is in the place designated for the blood. as you can clearly see, blood is being used for the summon which means that the power of the white snake does not include Manda. Orochimaru drew the rest of the tattoo out before the fight and it was permantly on his arm. the only reason why Kabuto had to apply blood, obviously Orochimaru's own, was because Orochimaru could not use his own arms as they had been sealed by Shiki Fuujin.

as we know, a tattoo is drawn out, sometimes even with blood as Jiraiya has demonstrated before going into Sennin Mode. also Orochimaru's tattoo has only been shown to summon Manda, the most powerful of his snakes, the rest come from his body or his jutsu. there is no proof that the tattoo came off Sasuke's arm after Orochimaru was extracted, his bandages are always covering the location of what was the tatoo. likewise, there is no proof that Sasuke had the tattoo after his fight with Deidara, especially after Manda died. your references skip a huge time frame, you conveniently ignore that Manda died after Deidara, therefore the tattoo is useless and has no further point. please read my post again for reference:

the snake summoning tattoo, as the name suggests, was a tattoo. as you can clearly see, Kabuto drew the tattoo on Orochimaru's arm. it was drawn on his body despite having the powers of the white snake, so it certainly doesn't come with the package as you are suggesting. nonetheless, I've taken the liberty of having gone through the exact moments in which Sasuke uncovers his arm and there is nothing to suggest that the tattoo disappeared after Orochimaru's removal. the bandages Sasuke conveniently cover his arms, so there's no proof of the tattoo being there even when Orochimaru's powers were within him.
here you can see Sasuke's arm covered by bandages:
- http://read.mangashare.com/Naruto/chapter-387/page005.html
here you can see Orochimaru being extracted:
- http://read.mangashare.com/Naruto/chapter-393/page001.html
as you can see, there is no proof that the tattoo disappeared after Orochimaru was extracted. however, there is proof that the tattoo was drawn on using blood in the example you gave me. it is the same process through which Jiraiya, Tsunade, Naruto have summoned their animals and since they use blood, they all have contracts.

the purpose of the tattoo was to summon Manda, which is dead after the Deidara battle. that tattoo conveniently disappears or at least, does not make any more appearances after Deidara. Orochimaru was able to summon other lesser snakes from his own body without a tattoo, which apparently Sasuke can do as well, albeit to a lesser degree. the fact that Sasuke can't summon the exact kind of snakes or use the exact kind jutsu Orochimaru does, is actually good evidence that Sasuke used his own jutsu and not that of Orochimaru's arsenal. for example, Sasuke was not able to use the mass hidden snake arms jutsu Orochimaru used against Kyuubi Naruto.

why doesn't Sasuke summon snakes? after Itachi, Sasuke undergoes a change in which his personality and theme reflects that as a hawk. it was a significant symbolic moment, as Madara questioned whether Sasuke would remain a "snake" or become a "hawk". sticking to that theme, Kishimoto has brought Sasuke much more closer to hawks and refrains from serpent references. that includes the jutsu for which Sasuke used a handseal to activate, which you are ignoring. even after Sasuke has been purified of Orochimaru, technically there is nothing stopping him from using the hidden snake arms jutsu in his battles. Sasuke knows the handseal(s) involved and can utilize that technique anytime he wishes, yet he doesn't because he has "become a hawk".

Birds----------------
Since when have i disputed that he signed a bird contract? My point is and ever shall be, that he had no real opportunity to search for it. So, however he got it, it was cheaply gotten compared to everyone else's summons. Hence freebie.
as I had mentioned there is clear proof for everyone to see that Sasuke, in off-panel time period, had signed a contract for the summoning. a summon cannot happen unless you have a contract and blood. in case you have missed it, Kishimoto, himself, is alluding to the fact that Sasuke was never shown to have made a contract, which means that something interesting will be revealed later.
"Oh a new summon... I wonder when he got that?"
- http://mangastream.com/read/naruto/477-18/10

Poison immunity---------
Is Sasuke not paralyzed here by poison? (http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/345/04/) Yet suddenly Kakashi is certain he's resistant to it. (http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/485/08/)

I don't remember it being stated that Orochimaru was immune to all Tsunades poisons but in his case it wouldn't surprise me as that is one of his specialties. In Sasuke's case he isn't immune to poison one minute and the next he is. Hence the freebie.:notrust
you are comparing two completely different types of poison. the poison in first link was developed by Orochimaru, why would Orochimaru give Sasuke immunity against his own poisons? Orochimaru already knew that Sasuke would eventually betray him, why would Orochimaru give Sasuke immunity against his own poisons? as you can see, Orochimaru stated that he poison he used on Sasuke was a numbing poison which obviously paralyzes Sasuke. Orochimaru had the poison ready in the off-chance that Sasuke would resist the body transfer ritual. the second link you gave me has the incorrect translation from onemanga. here is what Kakashi really said:

"The kind of poison kunai you'd had learned to make from Shizune won't kill Sasuke. Orochimaru would've made sure he'd be immune to it."
- http://mangastream.com/read/naruto/485-64/9

Kakashi is not saying that Sasuke is immune to all poisons, he is saying that Sasuke is immune to Shizune's poison.

Chakra of EMOTION--------

First off Naruto's chakra was in no way depleted in that scene you cited (http://read.mangashare.com/Naruto/chapter-133/page015.html), that was just him going all out. Again though, bringing up Naruto is nothing but dodging the issue. Where Naruto does or doesn't get his chakra, says nothing about where Sasuke gets his.

Sasuke gains tremendous power when he is feeling emotional or hateful, yet in his case there is nothing to explain where it comes from. In Naruto's case there is the kyuubi but for Sasuke it, as of now, defies explanation. Hence freebie.:tem
I never said that Naruto's chakra was depleted. however, Naruto drew a staggering amount of chakra as Sasuke had remarked here:
- http://read.mangashare.com/Naruto/chapter-133/page015.html
at the end of the chapter, the narration follows:
"To protect someone important... Naruto becomes even stronger!!"
- http://read.mangashare.com/Naruto/chapter-133/page016.html
if you are comparing Naruto to Sasuke in that fight against Gaara, you ignore the fact that Karin repetitively healed Sasuke so there was no chakra coming out of thin air because Sasuke's chakra wasn't depleted. likewise, there is evidence for Sasuke's powerful chakra. he has inherited the chakra of Rikudo Sennin, who was more powerful than Nagato. The Kyuubi, Naruto's source of chakra and the most powerful of all the Bijuu, even stated that Sasuke's chakra is more cursed and sinister than his own. although that does not mean that Sasuke has more chakra, it does, however, demonstrate the fact that Sasuke's chakra is very evil, potent, and powerful. Madara, himself, stated that the Uchiha clan had very "powerful" and "potent" chakras and that his own chakra was the most powerful in his own clan. the Kyuubi remarked that Sasuke's chakra was just like Madara's own chakra.

please read my previous post for reference:

nothing different from the "will of fire" reference I pulled up for you. Naruto is a jinchuuriki, but he did not show the usual characteristics and appearance that follows Kyuubi chakra. that was his own chakra and the manga referred to it as the "will of fire" and Sasuke even clarified that it was chakra. only at this point in the battle ( here http://read.mangashare.com/Naruto/ch...4/page011.html ) was the Kyuubi emphasized as Naruto changed apperance. likewise, Sasuke inherited the chakra of Rikudou Sennin and his chakra was considered to be cursed for even Kyuubi's own standards. this was emphasized since virtually the beginning of Part II, it's nothing new.

I hate it when they say the kyuubi is a free power up. Naruto doesn't know how to control the kyuubi. It comes out when he is distressed. He could destroy the leaf and all its people if its not in check, that doesn't seem like a free power up but a major problem.
I never said Naruto has "free power-ups". you should have read my post, it's pretty thorough and detailed. read below what I actually wrote:

Naruto has nearly limitless chakra coming from the Kyuubi, everytime his life is in danger or he is in an emotional state. did he train to obtain that power, no. his father sealed the Kyuubi into him because he realized Naruto would need a "special set of abilities" to defeat Madara. that does not mean that Naruto has "cheap" powers, he has to gain control over his Bijuu powers (whatever that means). likewise, Haku was born with his kekkai genkai and accidentally used it. however, Haku had to train to perfect his kekkai genkai, which led to him developing the powerful ice mirror jutsu he used on Team 7. Sasuke has the Sharingan and he awoke it during an extremely emotional state. however, he had to train his body to be able to keep up with high speed movement after getting his arse kicked by Lee. Sasuke gained all three techniques when he awoke his Mangekyou. however, he had to train his Mangekyou in the fights against the Kages. even right now, Sasuke still hasn't shown a decent tsukuyomi, where is the free or cheap power-up?

the manga clearly states that Sasuke trained his Mangekyou.

I fail to see why you apply double standards to doujutsu users and kekkai genkai, the jinchuuriki hold far more power than anyone could possibly imagine. if you consider Sasuke to have free gifts or "cheap" abilities, then you have to accept that Naruto has free gifts or "cheap" abilities as well. it works both ways buddy, this isn't unique to Sasuke, yours truly (Naruto) has a reservoir of chakra waiting to explode.

Lord Abortion

March 31, 2010, 11:04 AM

Ryr

April 01, 2010, 06:21 AM

shinsengumi

April 01, 2010, 08:47 AM

I think all these conversations point to one conclusion: certain people are simply bitter about Sasuke's quick-learning, so they constantly nitpick trivial things about Sasuke to try to undermine Sasuke's progress.

Of all overpowering things in the manga, all you can remember is sharingan, sharingan, sharingan.

Mei Terumi has two kekkai genkai and complete mastery over three normal elements and two advance elements - where's the crying about unfair bloodline limit again? Neji Hyuga can completely erase all of a ninja's ability to use jutsus through a touch - where's the crying about unfair jutsus again?

--------------------------

And of all overpowering summons in the manga, all you can remember is a freaking eagle without any special ability whatsoever.

Jiraiya had a giant frog who can perform combo jutsus with him; Danzou summoned a giant tapir out of nowhere to amplify his attacks; Ma and Pa can even use a completely overpowering genjutsu - but you do not remember all of these right, all you can remember is a freaking eagle that flies.

---------------------------

And then there are people who whine because Sasuke got an MS from Itachi - which is exactly how Naruto obtained the chakra to perform unlimited shadow clones. Without his freebie he would be out of chakra after using three clones since every shadow clone halves your chakra reserves.

So much about 'freebie', maybe I should write a thread about all the freebies acquired by Naruto.

you are only misdirecting everything everybody said in this thread and not even trying to understand anybody either. excuse me for this but you sound like a cheap lawyer who is twisting other people's words to make a point.
people dont complain about overpowered things at all.The topic of this arguement isnt "overpowered things" at all.. if that was the case,we had to be still talking about pain+nagato+sage of the 6 paths and noone else in any near future...do you honestly believe we complained because we consider a hawk as an overpowered being ?
please try to see what we are really complaining about;

for ex: think of a fight between 2 naked and bare-handed men.they both dont have weapons.the fight goes on and on ...but at some point one of them takes a katana out of his back... WTF it was supposed to be bare-handed and the guy was supposed to be naked ,where did that katana come from? even if the mangaka says "it was hidden in the blind-spot from the beginning" we wont buy it ,its not very convincing is it? -a blind-spot on your body where you can hide a katana while you are naked- (well i can actually name 1 :P ) i dont complain because the katana is overpowered,it can be made of cotton for all i care ,how it was exposed in the scene and the story is all that really matters

now if we convert this ex. back to sasuke; a guy who would benefit from a flying summon in his last matches (especilly against deidara) didnt do so , which suggests he didnt have at that moment and later he had no time to gain it unless that hawk was already stalking him, -because he was either healing after a brutal match or rushing to another brutal match- ,somehow summoned it in his last match out of nowhere. even if the mangaka -and people like you- tell that "a summon can not be summoned without a contract so its obviously done off-screen- i'm having a hard time placing it in the time-line of the events
i asked these questions 10 times in my previous posts, even underlined and colored them but nobody could give any solid answer to Where When and How Sasuke could get that summon. there were e few -at least acceptable- suggestions though -like it could be in the time-skip before the shippuuden but sasuke never used it until now or he got that while they were on the road to Zabuza's sword- even these 2 suggestions accept that it cant be in between the fights anyway so why he didnt use it before is still an unknown however you look at it.
i realized that if i try to explain everything to you like this,it will be too long and prolly will be skipped without being readed anyway. this was just the answer to your praise "And of all overpowering summons in the manga, all you can remember is a freaking eagle without any special ability whatsoever. "
again a reminder - its not about the eagle or hawk or eaglewk of hawgle or anything ..its about the way the mangaka chose to show them !!
for all those other "over-powered" examples of yours, we saw nothing of those char's stories in depth so a realistic background story can be created anytime but we saw of sasuke and his way of gaining them and we didnt like it so we complain ..thats all..

juUnior

April 01, 2010, 10:39 AM

Of all overpowering things in the manga, all you can remember is sharingan, sharingan, sharingan.
But it's true. Sharingan is like a dynamic character in Narutoverse: it has development sometimes out of nowhere compared to other abilities.. overpowered abilities like Terumi Mei having 2 kg or Neji's "touch". It's as simple as that. If you don't know what I'm talking about, my first thought: Sharingan wasn't able to see through objects, yet in Sasuke vs DeiDei-chan's fight Sasuke through his Sharingan was able to see through earth; it was a domain of Byakugan, not Sharingan. Later on it will be revealed that Sharingan can see chakra points like Byakugan. Yeah, Sharingan in that sense is overpowered over anything else, but it's a cliche from Kishi and how he develops his character Sharingan. No wonder that ppl consider it overpowered. Just to notice: in the early stages of the manga Sharingan wasn't considered as sth overpowered, no. Even with Itachi's introduction and MS, still it was considered as uber abilitiy without bashing. Yet Sharingan from part 2 is constantly being developed, not only the abilities of MS overally, but EMS?! yeah.

Delbi

April 01, 2010, 12:52 PM

But it's true. Sharingan is like a dynamic character in Narutoverse: it has development sometimes out of nowhere compared to other abilities.. overpowered abilities like Terumi Mei having 2 kg or Neji's "touch". It's as simple as that. If you don't know what I'm talking about, my first thought: Sharingan wasn't able to see through objects, yet in Sasuke vs DeiDei-chan's fight Sasuke through his Sharingan was able to see through earth; it was a domain of Byakugan, not Sharingan. Later on it will be revealed that Sharingan can see chakra points like Byakugan. Yeah, Sharingan in that sense is overpowered over anything else, but it's a cliche from Kishi and how he develops his character Sharingan. No wonder that ppl consider it overpowered. Just to notice: in the early stages of the manga Sharingan wasn't considered as sth overpowered, no. Even with Itachi's introduction and MS, still it was considered as uber abilitiy without bashing. Yet Sharingan from part 2 is constantly being developed, not only the abilities of MS overally, but EMS?! yeah.

The Sharigan's ability to see chakra, first of all, is nothing compared to the Byakugan's. The Byakugan can see every chakra point in one's body, and can also see up to 10 km's away.

The Sharigan can't do any of that, all it can see is the color of chakra, which by the way, was first introduced in the Kakashi Gaiden with Obito, so no, it wasn't first introduced when Sasuke fought Deidara. So please get the facts straight.

Kishi has not developed the Sharigan in any way shape or form in which it was orginally intended.

When Itachi was first introduced, did it ever occur to anyone that Sasuke may or may not gain his abilities as well? Did anyone complain when Itachi whipped out Sussano? Not really to my knowledge, but of course, when Sasuke does it, it's some kind of crime.

People on this site, and many others, have some kind of unexplainable hate for Sasuke, and can't understand that from the VERY BEGINNING, he has been seen as someone superior to nearly everyone around him. And that fact has only be renforced nearly every time he fights, becasue it's true.

The Sharigan's powers are said to awaken in times of stress. Guess what, that's always been the case with Sasuke. He is also a Genius to the point where even Orochimaru admitted he was nothing compared to Sasuke at his age. We then have Madara confiriming to us that Sasuke has the potential to surpass Nagato, and that his eyes are superior to Itachi's.

Sasuke is essentailly being hailed as a person never before seen before, much like our hero Naruto. Both of them are surpassing all those before them, doing things no one else has done before. IT"S A THEME OF THE MANGA FOR CRYING OUT LOUD.

And why shouldn't the Sharigan be overpowered? Are we forgetting that it is an offshoot of the of The Jinchuriki who housed the Juubi and also possessed the Rinnegan? When the pieces started falling together people should have been happy that we actually have an explanation for why the Sharigan is the way it is, not that it's a stupid explanation.
[hr]
About the Hawk. Did it ever occur to anyone that Sasuke got the Hawk when he visted the Uchiha Hideout with all the cats?

Perhaps he's had it for a while but never thought of actually signing the damn thing until he needed it?

And if we are talking about ass-pulls, can someone explain to me how Naruto could go 4 tails and be half dead, and then go nearly 9 and be alright? How is that not an ass-pull? Or how Yondi conviently sealed part of his soul in his son without it every being mentioned before?

All Sasuke did was summon a Hawk. He didn't create some new uber technique at all, all he did was a summon a fucking bird that hasn't been seen since, and will probably be insignificant for the rest of the manga.

I can't really understand why every small detail must be explained to the extreme. There are tons of things that have not been explained and yet no one complains about them. Like for example, why when Kakashi recieved his Sharigan did he not have to heal like Sasuke? And how the shit did he gain MS?

jdw

April 01, 2010, 01:25 PM

When Naruto went 4-tail against Oro, Yamato forcefully suppressed Kyuubi's chakra. An external act. When Naruto went A-tails against Pain, Yondaime tweaked Naruto's own seal from within him. An internal act.

As for Yondaime's chakra left behind with Naruto, Naruto had not gotten to that stage before so it was not revealed. It was a jutsu by Yondaime, not an unknown, unseen surprise jutsu by Naruto. If Naruto had called upon Yondaime from the great beyond without any prior indication that he could do so, you might be on to something.
_______________

As for Itachi's Susanoo, etc, we were not exposed to his Susanoo progression/development (or lack thereof), so it wouldn't make sense to complain about it really.

vintagemistakes

April 01, 2010, 03:48 PM

Due to all of the bashing/baiting/snippy comments, this thread is closed until further notice.

Reopening thread. Please play nice :amuse

Ryr

April 04, 2010, 02:49 AM

But it's true. Sharingan is like a dynamic character in Narutoverse: it has development sometimes out of nowhere compared to other abilities.. overpowered abilities like Terumi Mei having 2 kg or Neji's "touch".

The sharingan abilities are progressing faster in Sasuke's sockets because he was always pushing his own limits in his fights. He was not training in a comfortable environment where people actually prepare meals for him. He was always forcing himself to do better, hence his progress is faster.

t's as simple as that. If you don't know what I'm talking about, my first thought: Sharingan wasn't able to see through objects, yet in Sasuke vs DeiDei-chan's fight Sasuke through his Sharingan was able to see through earth;

Sasuke got Deidara's elemental style through common sense - he saw the hand seals performed was of the earth element. So him finding out the earth element was not a sharingan ability, its merely a sharp observation.

it was a domain of Byakugan, not Sharingan. Later on it will be revealed that Sharingan can see chakra points like Byakugan. Yeah, Sharingan in that sense is overpowered over anything else, but it's a cliche from Kishi and how he develops his character Sharingan. No wonder that ppl consider it overpowered.

Actually not everyone thinks sharingans are overpowered. There are quite a number of people who believe that Sasuke's sharingan was particularly powerful because of him constantly pushing his own limits, and because he was clever in using the right skills at the right times. If you give Sasuke's sharingan to another less talented Uchiha, the sharingan may not be as powerful since the other guy may not utilize the sharingan to its maximum potential.

jdw

April 04, 2010, 03:16 AM

Sasuke got Deidara's elemental style through common sense - he saw the hand seals performed was of the earth element. So him finding out the earth element was not a sharingan ability, its merely a sharp observation.

I cannot speak for JuUnior, but I don't think he meant Sasuke seeing through Deidara's "elemental style" with sharingan or through observation as you say, I think he was talking about Sharingan being able to see through solid ground when Sasuke located Deidara's mines because Sharingan can see the color of chakra (http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/361/17/).

http://img651.imageshack.us/img651/3439/19169153h.jpg

Ryr

April 04, 2010, 03:19 AM

jdw

April 04, 2010, 03:25 AM

Man, seeing through chakra is a fundamental ability of the sharingan since the third ninja world war. How do you think Obito see through an invisible opponent?

It's really a bit late to argue about it.

I am not sure you are following what is being said. No one is questioning the seeing through chakra aspect, he was questioning Sasuke's ability to see through solid ground to see the chakra. It is the difference between Obito seeing the chakra of the invisible man standing right in front of his unobstructed field of vision, and Obito seeing the chakra of a person standing on the other side of a wall despite the obstruction to his field of vision.

Exodi

April 04, 2010, 03:28 AM

Obito wasn't seeing through anything.

He was looking at someone who appeared to be invisible. What Obito saw was a mass of chakra.

Deidara's mines, on the other hand, were underground. So, Sasuke shouldn't have been able to see them. Unless we assume that chakra is visible no matter where it is.

If so, than Byakugan is....totally pointless.

edit: What jdw said. Lol.

Ryr

April 04, 2010, 03:35 AM

he was questioning Sasuke's ability to see through solid ground to see the chakra. It is the difference between Obito seeing the chakra of the invisible man standing right in front of his unobstructed field of vision, and Obito seeing the chakra of a person standing on the other side of a wall despite the obstruction to his field of vision.

The bombs are planted in shallow ground. I think if you see an area of the ground which has strangely colored spots, you would know where the bombs are too. Its not like those bombs are planted behind 10 layers of concrete walls.

In other words, because the mines are so close to the surface, the chakra from the mines woulds simply color up the earth where the mines are. So you'll see a brown earth field with red mushroom spots on it - the mushrooms spots being where the mines are.

insid3rkill3r

April 04, 2010, 03:50 AM

Mines werent deep into the ground, they were right under the surface, otherwise some1 as small and light as Sasuke stepping on them wouldnt have triggered anything.

Perhaps the 'glow' from the chakra wasnt as bright, Sasuke could still notice it.

The byakugan isnt useless, he can see much further and through anything, Sasuke cant see through a brick wall, tho he could see it through a paper,,, get it?

Sasuke wouldnt be able to do what Neji did when he looked inside the akatsuki hideout when they were extracting gaara's bijuu.

Delbi

April 04, 2010, 01:19 PM

I cannot speak for JuUnior, but I don't think he meant Sasuke seeing through Deidara's "elemental style" with sharingan or through observation as you say, I think he was talking about Sharingan being able to see through solid ground when Sasuke located Deidara's mines because Sharingan can see the color of chakra (http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/361/17/).

http://img651.imageshack.us/img651/3439/19169153h.jpg

That is nothing new though, Obito was able to do it back Kakashi Gaiden. People simply forgot about it.
[hr]

Obito wasn't seeing through anything.

He was looking at someone who appeared to be invisible. What Obito saw was a mass of chakra.

Deidara's mines, on the other hand, were underground. So, Sasuke shouldn't have been able to see them. Unless we assume that chakra is visible no matter where it is.

If so, than Byakugan is....totally pointless.

edit: What jdw said. Lol.
The ability to see chakra seems to be similar with the ability to see light. Hold a flashilight up against your hand, and some of the light travels through your hand and is visible. Same concept with chakra and earth.

ninjabot

April 04, 2010, 01:47 PM

If the Sharingan's so called free upgrades weren't so detrimental to the wielder, I think the Sasuke haters may actually have an argument. We've never, ever seen an instance where the original, 1 to 3 tomoe Sharingan had an ability appear out of nowhere without explination.

Infact, I don't even remember the MS being labled as the final form of the Sharingan. And then there's Sasuke's proficiency with Genjutsu. Sasuke's been training to defeat Itachi since he left Konoha, and was being tutored by a character with a high Genjutsu proficiency. Makes perfect sense to me.

Curse Seal. Sasuke fought Orochimaru because he wanted Sasuke to prove to him his strength. Well, Sasuke just wanted to save his friends, Oro had the secret agenda. He tested him, to see how far his Sharingan had progressed. It worked, thus, showing him that Sasuke may have what it takes to survive application of the curse seal, which only 1 in 10 people have what it takes to survive. Atleast, it hasn't been stated to be a random occurence. Free gift? He basically earned a Sannin's approval AND relied on his body's ability to adapt to the Curse Seal, which is no small feat.

MS. Sasuke spent his whole life fighting to gain the strength necessary to kill Itachi, and even though it wasn't enough, he still had the necessary strength to survive his assault up until the point that Itachi pulled out Susanoo, so much so that a victory on his end was a very real possibility. Maybe if Itachi had just picked up a kunai and forced Sasuke to stab him at the beginning of the fight, the way Sasuke gained MS could be considered free. But look at the real picture:

Sasuke had to kill his closest loved one to gain the MS. Even if Itachi had handed him a kunai and forced him to stab him like I said, it doesn't take away the emotional and mental strain that he suffers upon the realization that he gains later. Infact, it cost Sasuke his sanity to gain the MS, lmao. Free? Really?

Snakes and Hawks. This is the only possible argument anyone here could have in hopes of proving that Sasuke gains things for free. But, because Sasuke never summoned a snake until Orochimaru was absorbed, it makes perfect sense that he had access to them even without signing a pact with the snake clan because he had access to all of Oro's abilities thanks to absorbing him. This leaves him a chance to gain the Hawk pact, since he isn't sworn by blood to any normal pact just yet. And if you consider him gaining Oro's powers a free upgrade, remember that it was the level of Sharingan expertise he gained over his years of training that allowed him to reverse what was essentially a form of Genjutsu (Orochimaru's body stealing technique). This simply shows that he's really good at what he does.

Immunity to poison? When the hell was that even confirmed? Kakashi simply made the assumption that Sasuke was immune to poison because he Orochimaru would have taken any necessary precautions to protect his future body, aswell as because Orochimaru would have knowledge of Tsunade's poisons from spending an entire childhood training alongside her.

I'll add more BS butthurt anti-Sasuke excuses as the show up.

EDIT: Here we go, I managed to find more:

Hatred Chakra. Never once is it confirmed that he gains a higher chakra reserve thanks to his hatred. His hatred simply pushes him to pull out all the stops inorder to kill off his foe. Madara states his hatred makes hims stronger, but that's a very, veray general term as far as anyone goes. If there was an increase in power, it was the very simple, easy to recognize increase in Susuanoo's power as it evolved, which happened from Sasuke getting angry (hatred!) and pushing his body to the limit to force Susanoo out. The more he pushed, the more Susanoo developed. Sasuke didn't gain an extra reserve of chakra. His own chakra didn't grow. And his attacks didn't become any more devastating (Susanoo's did though).

Ryr

April 04, 2010, 02:07 PM

MS. Sasuke spent his whole life fighting to gain the strength necessary to kill Itachi, and even though it wasn't enough, he still had the necessary strength to survive his assault up until the point that Itachi pulled out Susanoo, so much so that a victory on his end was a very real possibility. Maybe if Itachi had just picked up a kunai and forced Sasuke to stab him at the beginning of the fight, the way Sasuke gained MS could be considered free. But look at the real picture:

Sasuke had to kill his closest loved one to gain the MS. Even if Itachi had handed him a kunai and forced him to stab him like I said, it doesn't take away the emotional and mental strain that he suffers upon the realization that he gains later. Infact, it cost Sasuke his sanity to gain the MS, lmao. Free? Really?

Great argument about the MS.

In truth the MS is simply a raw material. A great factory can refine the raw material into quality products, but if the same raw material is given to a noobie factory, the result is a bad product.

A great factory is one which constantly learns new, superior processing techniques and keep on improving its manufacturing capability. Obviously, the competitors would not be happy with the great factory since it steals all their customers. But instead of lamenting how it's unfair that the great factory could produce quality goods so efficiently, maybe these competitors should try to find new methods to improve their own productive capabilities for better competition.

juUnior

April 04, 2010, 02:43 PM

Sasuke got Deidara's elemental style through common sense - he saw the hand seals performed was of the earth element. So him finding out the earth element was not a sharingan ability, its merely a sharp observation.
Oh, I see, I had written that in the bad manner. What I thought was seeing through objects with Sharingan, and by object I meant through earth, where the mines where hidden.

Big THX jdw for claryfing things for me; sorry Delbi and Ryr for confusion, it was my bad writing such incoherent post.

The bombs are planted in shallow ground. I think if you see an area of the ground which has strangely colored spots, you would know where the bombs are too. Its not like those bombs are planted behind 10 layers of concrete walls.
I like that explanation. Till next time sth like that comes, it's probably good.

kisame123

May 09, 2010, 08:48 PM

I am not saying what exactly he got, but people cannot say he didn't get "power" from taking Itachi's eyes right after he said he did get "power" in his own words. I never said it would be identical to Naruto & Kyuubi. Outside power is outside power, even if the results are not identical. To say otherwise would be unreasonable.
but see, that's the problem, isn't it? is the EMS really an outside power? recall that Madara genealogically ordered the doujutsu line. The Sharingan can decode some of the tablet, the Mangekyou even more, and then the Rinnegan can do it completely (http://read.mangashare.com/Naruto/chapter-467/page012.html). You can see that the Mangekyou is genetically closer to the Rinnegan than the Sharingan, although all doujutsu are essentially one and the same genetically. note that Madara does not differentiate the Mangekyou from the Eternal Mangekyou, rather he only refers to one and that is the Eternal Mangekyou since it is the perfected doujutsu. in other words, the EMS, despite transplanting another pair of eyes, is a way of partially restoring the lost genetics from the original doujutsu or at least getting as close to it as possible. it is essentially a part of Sasuke's DNA, it's in his genetics. I know this sounds weird and disgusting, but you have to remember that the Uchiha clan is cursed.

to better explain, let me give you an example. imagine that your great, great, great grandfather had telepathic powers. it is certainly a unique ability and that ability was genetically inherited by the next people in line. however, you being born into that family line, a few hundred years later, find that the telepathy genes are either dormant or are not strong enough, despite inbreeding between close/distant cousins, to prevent genetic pollution. if I were to offer you the choice of restoring that gene by using your ancestors' retrieved DNA and genetically augmenting your DNA, would you take it? let us say that you did end up taking that offer (without hesitation, if I might add) and a person comes to you and says that you are using an "outside power" or something that is not yours, now what? Do you see how unfair that sounds? you have the genes, despite being dormant or too weak for any significance, they are in your DNA and belong to you. can anyone say that it is not yours? sorry for the weird example, but I thought it was pretty creative... :blink

anyways, if it wasn't a part of his genetics, then any shinobi can simply transplant another pair of eyeballs to his own and he would awaken a new doujutsu, even if he doesn't have the sharingan. Neji could transplant Hinata's Byakugan, 1+1=2, and hence, he would have the Eternal Byakugan, wouldn't he? Konohamaru can transplant Asuma's eyeballs and then he will awaken the Eternal Normal Eyes, normal but special:). the only reason why the EMS exists is because the clan members have the genetic potential to awaken the new doujutsu. the new doujutsu is in their genes, it doesn't come simply from adding eyeballs to another pair. the EMS is in Sasuke's genetics, as well as all other Uchiha clan members. the Mangekyou, both the imperfect and the perfect or MS and EMS, is a way to gain power that is as close to the original doujutsu, the Rinnegan (or "true" sharingan). it is essentially the "next best thing".

jdw

May 10, 2010, 08:54 AM

but see, that's the problem, isn't it? is the EMS really an outside power? recall that Madara genealogically ordered the doujutsu line. The Sharingan can decode some of the tablet, the Mangekyou even more, and then the Rinnegan can do it completely (http://read.mangashare.com/Naruto/chapter-467/page012.html). You can see that the Mangekyou is genetically closer to the Rinnegan than the Sharingan, although all doujutsu are essentially one and the same genetically. note that Madara does not differentiate the Mangekyou from the Eternal Mangekyou, rather he only refers to one and that is the Eternal Mangekyou since it is the perfected doujutsu. in other words, the EMS, despite transplanting another pair of eyes, is a way of partially restoring the lost genetics from the original doujutsu or at least getting as close to it as possible. it is essentially a part of Sasuke's DNA, it's in his genetics. I know this sounds weird and disgusting, but you have to remember that the Uchiha clan is cursed.

to better explain, let me give you an example. imagine that your great, great, great grandfather had telepathic powers. it is certainly a unique ability and that ability was genetically inherited by the next people in line. however, you being born into that family line, a few hundred years later, find that the telepathy genes are either dormant or are not strong enough, despite inbreeding between close/distant cousins, to prevent genetic pollution. if I were to offer you the choice of restoring that gene by using your ancestors' retrieved DNA and genetically augmenting your DNA, would you take it? let us say that you did end up taking that offer (without hesitation, if I might add) and a person comes to you and says that you are using an "outside power" or something that is not yours, now what? Do you see how unfair that sounds? you have the genes, despite being dormant or too weak for any significance, they are in your DNA and belong to you. can anyone say that it is not yours? sorry for the weird example, but I thought it was pretty creative... :blink

anyways, if it wasn't a part of his genetics, then any shinobi can simply transplant another pair of eyeballs to his own and he would awaken a new doujutsu, even if he doesn't have the sharingan. Neji could transplant Hinata's Byakugan, 1+1=2, and hence, he would have the Eternal Byakugan, wouldn't he? Konohamaru can transplant Asuma's eyeballs and then he will awaken the Eternal Normal Eyes, normal but special:). the only reason why the EMS exists is because the clan members have the genetic potential to awaken the new doujutsu. the new doujutsu is in their genes, it doesn't come simply from adding eyeballs to another pair. the EMS is in Sasuke's genetics, as well as all other Uchiha clan members. the Mangekyou, both the imperfect and the perfect or MS and EMS, is a way to gain power that is as close to the original doujutsu, the Rinnegan (or "true" sharingan). it is essentially the "next best thing".

This is an interesting approach to the material. Basically, you are talking about the restoration of existing potential. It isn't an approach to the material that I agree with, but I cannot dismiss it as a logical possibility. There is another outlook, however, and I will share mine with you.

I see it as the following. Sasuke has "X" within his MS/body, Itachi has "X" within his MS/body. When these X's meet as part of the transplant/merging process, they give birth to a new technique that did not exist within either individual before the combination existed. As a loose analogy, similar to a man and a woman who come together to give birth to a child by ordinary means. Each person individually has material to contribute to the existence, but neither can do it alone and the child existed in neither before the joining of materials. The combination creates the resulting child.

In the manga the transplant is said to "give birth" to a new technique:

http://img714.imageshack.us/img714/8679/birthp.jpg

This is to say, in my opinion, it is not possible without the contribution of another. This contribution is the power of another, in Sasuke's case, Itachi's power.

kisame123

May 11, 2010, 02:02 PM

This is an interesting approach to the material. Basically, you are talking about the restoration of existing potential. It isn't an approach to the material that I agree with, but I cannot dismiss it as a logical possibility. There is another outlook, however, and I will share mine with you.

I see it as the following. Sasuke has "X" within his MS/body, Itachi has "X" within his MS/body. When these X's meet as part of the transplant/merging process, they give birth to a new technique that did not exist within either individual before the combination existed. As a loose analogy, similar to a man and a woman who come together to give birth to a child by ordinary means. Each person individually has material to contribute to the existence, but neither can do it alone and the child existed in neither before the joining of materials. The combination creates the resulting child.

This is to say, in my opinion, it is not possible without the contribution of another. This contribution is the power of another, in Sasuke's case, Itachi's power.
but that is what I specifically highlighted in my argument, if it were simply a case of a power only coming into existence due to anothers, then that would apply to all characters, regardless of whether they have the sharingan or not. Rock Lee can pluck out Gai's eyeballs and transplant them to his own, but that wouldn't give him a higher doujutsu, would it? the point of interest is, "and simply gaining another's eyes didn't equate to gaining this power." in other words, only the clan members have the latent potential to awaken the doujutsu and even still, there is the further requirement for the host to be the brother. however, it is not simply a matter of transplanting the eyes. for the new doujutsu to awaken, it has to exist somewhere as a potential deep inside Sasuke's genes. it does not simply pop up by putting two eyes together, the other requirement is that the host needs to be an Uchiha and only then, by virtue of their genetics, can they awaken the doujutsu. the analogy of giving birth does not suffice because giving birth to a child, although may have requirements from both parents, is something anyone can do. in the case of the Mangekyou, you'd have to sterilize all people within a million mile radius. next, there have to be at least two people who have adapted to the sterilizing environment and can still reproduce. these people will be able to reproduce only because of their genetics, which has adapted to the environment and basically has become immune to the sterilizing effects. in other words, the child can only be born due to the genetics of the parents. this is perhaps the closest I can get to the Mangekyou using your analogy, but I am still not doing the Mangekyou justice.

I believe my example given in the previous post was a very accurate comparison with the Mangekyou. imagine yourself having the latent potential to awaken telepathy or even telekineses thanks to your ancestor's genes. however, they are too dormant or weak to surface despite your family's, Slytherin-like breeding practices of keeping "Pure Blood" (Harry Potter). so you take the option of genetically augmenting yourself with the genes of your forefathers. despite using outside assistance, these abilities cannot exist unless you already have the genes somewhere deep inside of you. as for the Mangekyou, I'm not saying that earlier Uchiha members had the Mangekyou. as a matter of fact, it's almost certain that the earlier members had the Rinnegan. however, the Mangekyou is an attempt to recreate those conditions that the early Uchiha forefathers possesed. although the methods for obtaining power are disgusting, albeit not surprising since the clan is said to be "cursed", the doujutsu cannot exist had it not been for the clan's genetic blueprints carrying that latent and hidden potential. for example, if the EMS was not in the Uchiha genes, Sasuke could transplant Itachi's eyes and nothing would happen. I hope you can agree with what I'm saying because any further comments will have a very delayed response due to preparations for my final exams!