Sasuke and power-ups....are they free gifts or not???

[kingplaya(minato)]

For some time now, people have been talking about sasuke getting free power-ups from kishi so i just thought it would be nice to start a thread about whether.... 1. It is truly free gifts? 2. Would it spread to other characters like naruto and his age mates? 3. If it is truly free gifts, then is it a good development or not? As 4 me, i think they are free power-ups and i want Kishi 2 get some 4 naruto(when he comes out from his slumber that is...) So now lets hear your views...

[Essence]

I really wouldn't call it a free gift, random yes but not a free powerup. we already knew sasuke how to summon plus he excell at what he knows so it kind of make since he can summon a hawk especially since its a symbol of his group. now i really do feel kishi should also give naruto a new technique because not giving him one also would be totally unfair, hopefully kishi gives naruto several.

[insid3rkill3r]

What power ups are we talking about? MS aka Amaterasu / Tsukuyomi and Susano right?


Ill just start by saying this,,,, in the history of the Uchiha clan,,,only a VERY few number of members were able to get the MS,,, it is it said that it requires specific circumstances,,,, but obviously,,as Itachi himself stated,,,, u need to have the potential to awake it,, which only ppl like Madara,,Itachi,Sasuke and Kakashi can,,,,, because they among the top league.

That said it might require a special even to activate it but that can actually only be to speed up the process,,,

Sasuke activated the Sharingan when he was younger when Itachi wiped out the clan,, which seemed to have triggered it,,, but the Sharingan can also awaken when u get older and get stronger with experience,, it doesnt only need to be triggered by some kind of distress which could mean that Sasuke would have awaken his MS with time,,, just like Kakashi did.

Itachi did not give Sasuke the abilitie to use MS,,,, but the revelation speeded up the process to awake Sasuke's MS,,, which he would have awaken sooner or later (I believe...).

So now,,, are Sasuke's techniques his or Itachi's ??? Translations says that Itachi transfered his Doujutsu while others say he simply transfered a protection (The Fail-Safe)... I dont think we can have a 100% accurate answer on that but from what we have seen in the manga.. in the latest chapters...

http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/467/09/

Madara says that Sasuke awoke Susano,,,, and thus meaning that its indeed Sasuke's jutsu,,, not Itachi's..


In chapter 477

http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/477/09/

Danzo comments on how Sasuke is indeed's Itachi's brother,, thus meaning that since they are brothers and pretty much a copy of each other,, this could explain ressemblance in their abilities,

An other thing,,, Susano doesnt seem to have the shield and the sword,, which could mean its not Itachi's but since he isnt fully formed yet we cant be sure of that,,,,,

So with all that Said,,, i wouldnt say free gifts since its because he is a genius that he was able to awake the MS,,,,and to awake Susano as well which Madara claims to be something really rare among ppl who can get the MS which is already something extremely rare.... its no random stuff of "gifts"

As for the Hawk summon,,, its a surprise yes, but if he has it,,, its because he trained and made it happen,, or whatever he did to achieve it,,, he had to do something,,, just like Naruto did with the frogs....

its a surprise but not a gift....


The only gift Sasuke was given was to be born among the Uchiha to have a Sharingan,,, but thats like saiyng Naruto was gifted with an insane amount of chakra,,, thats also saying Raikage receive a gift by having bikuu level chakra too,,,, every characters were given "gifts" to make their abilities unique.... otherwise every ninja would be doing the same jutsus,,,,,

Id say it like Sasuke has the potential to have MS,,, Itachi had the potential,, Minato had the potential to have his flash technique,,, Naruto had the potention to achieve sage mode and so on....

U get my point.

[kingplaya(minato)]

The gifts i'm talking about are his supernatural speed in using the MS techs, if itachi has had the MS for close to 10 years and couldn't manipulate amaterasu then why would sasuke who had just used it in 1 fight before then(against killerbee) be able to do it. And we all know itachi is more of a genius than sasuke(at age 13 he was head of an ANBU squad and sasuke was just chunnin level at that time) So kishi to me is just giving sasuke free power-ups....and like essence said naruto should better be given more power-ups...

[Prince Sasuke]

When it comes to the sharingan, Sasuke eys has been stated more then once to have more potential then Itachis'. It shouldn't be a surprise that Sasuke Sharingan will surpass Itachis' in every way.
Free gifts? I would say no. Just cause some abilites are learn off screen dosen't mean its free.

[juUnior]

I will just answer the question for the sake of it:

Are sasuke's power-ups free gifts or not?
From the end of fight with Itachi - yes. I also like the idea of calling them "random" rather than "free", hehe xd

I voted for "free gifts" - if it wasn't for Itachi, Sasuke wouldn't have MS, thus he would have only Sharingan. Someone can say that he's Uchiha so he has one; yes, that's true, but MS can only be activated in certain circumastances - if it wsn't for the "help" of Itachi, Sasuke wouldn't have MS. The rest is, like in the poll says second option: "They are perfectly normal" - after receiving free gift from Itachi it's only natural, that Sasuke can use MS techniques and such, so I find it normal. But the lastest chapter with that hawk thingy yet again burdened my point of view. I can't shake the feeling it was done so Sasuke would have the ability to fly as it was with CS2 "flying" wings ^^'

So in short: MS was a free gift from Itachi, no matter how I look at it. If it wasn't for Itachi, Sasuke wouldn't obtain MS, even if he would kill Naruto - therre are requirements which should be met and from what we saw, Sasuke knew almost nothing even thought he read some stuff.
After acquiring MS: doujutsu techniques are just a normal consequence of this.

btw. "Hebi" Sasuke, of course, is excluded from my rant - he learnt all the stuff he knows, starting with shunshin and ending with variations of Chidori.

[kisame123]

Sasuke is a jutsu specialist, according DB3, he has a 5 in ninjustu. He's trained under Orochimaru, so he knows a lot of jutsu and can create his own as well. He was creating his own jutsu before the series even began! He learned Katon Goukakyuu justu from his father when he was eight (only the handseals). However, he taught himself or created the Katon Housenka and Katon Ryuuka Jutsu's without any help.

Please read the following below, I've already posted this before and I'm going to post it again.

Just a heads up to those who aren't expecting another jutsu from Sasuke. He's trained under Orochimaru's tutelage, the renowned justu specialist and can create jutsu of his own if needed.

Please read this Sai-Sasuke encounter:
http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/300/15/
"Orochimaru... did you forget about how you said you were going to teach me a new jutsu this afternoon...?" - Sasuke

-so far we've only seen Sasuke use Chidori variants which not even Orochimaru knew he had:
http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/343/15/
"This chakra composition is... But I've never seen this kind of shape manipulation before." - Orochimaru


That implies that he's made jutsu's on his own,
and learned jutsu from Orochimaru separately (probably non-elemental)
don't be surprised if he shows us new jutsu's later on. Orochimaru taught him jutsu's which were most likely non-elemental. The elemental chidori jutsu's he has, for example, the Chidori sword or senbon are jutsu he's developed himself since Orochimaru did not even know about them and was surprised. Sasuke could theoretically have even learned hundreds of jutsu's from Orochimaru. I've already given the example above of him asking Orochimaru to teach him a new jutsu on that specific day, implying he could have possibly been taught jutsu's every week or even everyday. I wouldn't even be surprised if he has learned Edo Tensei from Orochimaru, since he talks about reviving his clan a lot.

I'm actually eager to see his fights and jutsu's. I'm hoping he's made his own version of Raiton armor, he wouldn't even need the sharingan to copy the Raikage's move since he is an excellent Raiton user. He's already shown that he can use Raiton throughout his body to soften the impact of blows prevent fatal wounds, during the fight against Killerbee (Kirabi). Not to mention that he can channel the Chidor Nagashi throughout his body as a defensive move. Furthermore, I wonder if he can summon the Triple Rashomon Demon Gates Orochimaru used to shield himself against four-tailed Naruto?

Nonetheless, time and time again, the manga has questioned Sasuke's abilities and whether they are because of his bloodline. However, Sasuke immediately proves that he's skilled. For example, Deidara ridicules him, stating that he was only able to kill Orochimaru because he's an Uchiha.
http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/357/07/
take a look at what happened after that:
http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/357/08/

Let's not forget Zetsu's famous quote, "an expert with a pebble can still beat a novice with a shuriken." This was after Sasuke broke out of Itachi's Tsukiyomi, it was impressive. Now if you want to talk about ridiculous power-ups (some I consider to be forced from the author, in other words "free), I suggest you take a look at Sage Mode Naruto! Unlike the Mangekyou, which like anyother good power-up, debilitates the user (eats away at chakra and eyesight), Sage Mode takes external and renewable natural energy and enhances nearly all of Naruto's stats! He has super strength enough to toss a Rhino summon, speed enhancement, hax punches with extended range meaning you don't even have to connect with the target, enhanced genjutsu, enhanced ninjutsu, can throw Rasengans and expand them before impact, and has now even become a powerful sensor type! That's just ridiculous and let's not forget that he's mastered it in a week or less, something his master couldn't even do in fifty years! Let's also take time to remember the Kyuubi which gives him near-limitless chakra and he can even add some of that chakra to his Sage Mode!

[MegaX]

As to why Naruto isn't getting them, I think it's because it sets up this contrast. Naruto has to work to gain his power but Sasuke easily attains all of his. It'll all pay off when Naruto defeats him.

[kisame123]

As to why Naruto isn't getting them, I think it's because it sets up this contrast. Naruto has to work to gain his power but Sasuke easily attains all of his. It'll all pay off when Naruto defeats him.
Not really, Naruto never paid attention during school and opted to skip his classes.
Take a look at him dipping class here:
http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/154/07/
Here he is being scolded for that:
http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/154/08/

He had trouble "concentrating", which explains why he has such a hard time learning things. Whereas Sasuke actually stayed in school, did his homework, and had good grades, which means he learned the material! Take a look here if you don't believe me:
http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/223/05/

Even after being taught a jutsu by his father, he ended up disappointing him by failing to produce an adaquete Katon Goukakyuu Jutsu. His father even remarked that he wasn't like Itachi. Sasuke then trains night and day for a week to master the technique, you can see for yourself here:
http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/223/09/

He's also done the same thing with kunai practice. Sasuke wasn't a true genius like Itachi or Kakashi who both graduated from the academy early. He graduated at the same time as Naruto and the Konoha 12. People like to call him a "genius", I just think he's a very hard-working person who has a clear goal. When it comes to ninjutsu, he's incredibly creative. He actually thought of the idea of manipulating Amaterasu into different shapes and forms.

Naruto and other "hard-working" people like Rock Lee may cry because things are difficult for them. Yet, it doesn't change the fact that people like Sasuke and Neji work very hard and train for their powers. Things were just easier for Sasuke because he worked hard consistently whereas Naruto lagged behind all these years and he's feeling the consequences for that now.

[kingplaya(minato)]

I think most of u are not getting my point, i'm very aware of the fact that sasuke can learn justus very quickly but ever since the itachi fight i'm not sure he has had the time to train so my problem is that during each fight he does something that would normally require atleast a week's training in one second!....if he trains there would be no doubt in my mind that he is capable of achieving these feats and more but he just hasn't done that.....as 4 naruto's learning of sage mode, he actually TRAINED(thats the key word) 4 it and don't 4get that he used his clones to speed up the process...

[kkck]

Sasuke has had 3 powerups so far:

CS

Oro's jutsu

MS

He already lost oro and CS and MS wasn't a surprise at all, we all knew he was going to get it the moment it was introduced. I doubt anyone was actually naive enough to even consider the possibility of sasuke not getting it. CS was meant to keep sasuke in check and bring him to orochimaru and oro seemed mostly accidental lol. MS wasn't free since sasuke was basically born with it, it is his right to have it; it isn't something which can be compared to steroids. CS was forced on him and it was a miracle he survived the whole thing. I don't find sasuke's powerups so bad as people make them out to be, there are plenty other things which I dislike more lol.

[kisame123]

I think most of u are not getting my point, i'm very aware of the fact that sasuke can learn justus very quickly but ever since the itachi fight i'm not sure he has had the time to train so my problem is that during each fight he does something that would normally require atleast a week's training in one second!....if he trains there would be no doubt in my mind that he is capable of achieving these feats and more but he just hasn't done that.....as 4 naruto's learning of sage mode, he actually TRAINED(thats the key word) 4 it and don't 4get that he used his clones to speed up the process...
It's not that simple for an Uchiha, let alone an Uchiha who has awakened the Mangekyou. The Sharingan has always been something that you awaken under heightened emotional or stressful conditions. In other words, the Sharingan is only something you can awaken in battle. This is why the Uchiha are a powerful and awesome clan, they can only attain greater heights by risking their lives, throwing themselves into battle.

As for the Mangekyou, you cannot set aside time to train for the Mangekyou Sharingan. As I have said, like anyother good and realistic power-up, it debilitates the user:


It drains too much chakra (which again is perfectly normal for powerful attacks)
The more you use it, the more your eyesight weakens and deteriorates until you finally become blind

You cannot and definitely should NOT use the Mangekyou for training purposes. You can only use it in combat under extreme circumstances and so far, Sasuke has battled a Bijuu and the five greatest shinobi in the five great nations, the Kages. Besides, Madara is forcing him to do these things because he considers this to simply be a training exercise. The Yondaime Mizukage, under the influence of Madara, created the ninja academy program in which Genin were supposed to slaughter each other to pass.

You can understand why Madara puts Sasuke under life-threatening training exercises, it's probably the best method to awaken his powers. Madara isn't the only one, Danzou has trained "Root" using the same method of playing off ninja's against each other. Furthermore, even Jiraiya forced Naruto to draw out the power of the Kyuubi to summon Gamabunta by pushing him off a cliff!

[M3J]

I say they are perfectly normal. Had it been Itachi's gifts to Sasuke, I think Itachi's Mangekyou Sharingan would show, not Sasuke's, every time Sasuke used any of the techniques. I think he just made it so Amaterasu is used on Madara if a Sharingan is seen. I assume you're thinking about Mangekyou Sharingan though.

[kingplaya(minato)]

Come on!...i'm i the only 1 who voted free gifts here, where the hell are the others!<joke>.....i'm fine with him having the MS but the speed at which he's learning things is not normal EVEN 4 sasuke, the putting of amaterasu around susano was overkill cuz he had just found out he had/awokened susano then how the hell could he put amaterasu around it the next second?...if u say he awakens things in battle then getting susano is fine with me but the things he's doing with it are free 'gifts'(just like sasuke just getting the sharingan and the next second he can do genjustu with it and the next day he gets the 3 pointed sharingan, it just doesn't make sense!) i havn't even spoken about the hawk summon yet but we'll come to that P.S. Kakashi trains his mangekyo sharingan to be better so why can't sasuke???...

[kkck]

Come on!...i'm i the only 1 who voted free gifts here, where the hell are the others!<joke>.....i'm fine with him having the MS but the speed at which he's learning things is not normal EVEN 4 sasuke, the putting of amaterasu around susano was overkill cuz he had just found out he had/awokened susano then how the hell could he put amaterasu around it the next second?...if u say he awakens things in battle then getting susano is fine with me but the things he's doing with it are free 'gifts'(just like sasuke just getting the sharingan and the next second he can do genjustu with it and the next day he gets the 3 pointed sharingan, it just doesn't make sense!) i havn't even spoken about the hawk summon yet but we'll come to that P.S. Kakashi trains his mangekyo sharingan to be better so why can't sasuke???...

Sasuke was not capable of using sharingan genjutsu outright, he only did that after the timeskip which took place 3 years after sasuke first got the sharingan(about a decade if you consider the memories he suppressed). It was also implied between sasuke getting the sharingan when he fought haku and VOTE there was a spam of around 0.5-1 year. You could say he developed it very fast but that is only because he has his own innate talent. I guess sasuke could be comparable to those real life weirdos who get PHDs by the time they are 17(he is 16 and he is above even elite jonnin).

[kingplaya(minato)]

Sasuke was not capable of using sharingan genjutsu outright, he only did that after the timeskip which took place 3 years after sasuke first got the sharingan

I only gave that as an example of the fact that sasuke cannot begin to use the susano the way he's doing in a matter of 1 day!...u even said it took him 3 years 2 get the genjustu and about 1 year 2 get the 3 pointed sharingan which strongly supports my claim that he cannot master susano this quickly and it 2 me, is a free power-up...(funny how we are both saying the same thing in different ways...)

[ashher]

well thanks to the posts made by kisame123 this thread has rather turned into "whom do u think has the free gifts sasuke or naruto"?

now i must admit i don't get what its actually meant by 'free gift'.both naruto and sasuke has got some powers that they themselves didn't have to work much to get,like QB and Sharingan.but can they be called free?i mean minato had to die to make sure naruto gets that,and naruto still didn't manage to master it.so it definitely involved a lot of efforts.

on the other hand,sasuke got that eye because of his birth,that is true enough.but if we were to scorn everything that a person inherits genetically then it wouldn't make much sense.i mean when we see a beautiful daughter and mom,we don't say that the daughter got 'free gifts' do we?

about sage mode,i wonder how that can be free a gift?remember before going to myabukuzan,naruto mastered the art of concentration.during rasengan training he concentrated to such a level that surprised even Jiraiya.and you know to remain absolutely still,one needs to concentrate really hard.the way i saw it,it was kinda meditation and you know meditation requires great concentration and determination(not much of brainwork btw,unlike inventing jutsus,but i am sure naruto would be able to do that someday as well,i mean its not like he is mentally retarded).so the way i see it,it wasn't only the one week of training that got naruto to the point,it was the way he grew up and his mentality developed played an indispensable role there,just like these factors were prerequisite for anyone to accept and follow the philosophy of peace.

recently sasuke got some powers from itachi and a new summon.i think that the way he got them was quite logical.but one can say that kishi arranges things in such a way that sasuke (and naruto sometimes as well) get the logical chances to have power-ups.but they are the 2 main characters,so why complain about that as long as kishi manages to keep things arranged logically??

its true that kakashi,neji and sasuke are called 'genius'.that doesn't mean that they don't have to train/work hard to hone their skills.its just that it seems other ppl have to work much harder to get to the same level,like naruto.it required the sacrifice of his father and his own magnificent built-up as a character,and continuous incredible amount of training using kb(that's what got him rasenshuriken) that enabled him to get close to that level.still when it comes to amount of jutsus naruto can perform,he is behind.

[kingplaya(minato)]

@ashher, if u had read my previous post(in the 1st page) u'll see that i don't have anything against MS and susano or sage mode(after all as u put it, they are the 2 main characters and thus need new power-ups or they'd just be suckers) but my problem is with the way kishi is making sasuke manipulate and use MS techs...its all too sudden 4 him 2 start inventing new things with amaterasu and partially transforming susano(which took him about 3 years to do with CS) Now, this is different from what u think i'm saying...(but on a side note, where the hell are the guys who voted free gifts??!)

[ashher]

@ashher, if u had read my previous post(in the 1st page) u'll see that i don't have anything against MS and susano or sage mode(after all as u put it, they are the 2 main characters and thus need new power-ups or they'd just be suckers) but my problem is with the way kishi is making sasuke manipulate and use MS techs...its all too sudden 4 him 2 start inventing new things with amaterasu and partially transforming susano(which took him about 3 years to do with CS) Now, this is different from what u think i'm saying...(but on a side note, where the hell are the guys who voted free gifts??!)

okey to put it in my way,it would be roughly translated as "kishi failed to logically arrange the way sasuke get to use and master his MS" right?

here are the points i wanna make:

1.the way it has been presented in the manga so far,i don't know if practice is actually required to master MS,perhaps to one has to get accustomed to it before he can use them fully and that's why sasuke's susanoo is still incomplete,but its not like he has to do some further "inventing" .its rather suggested that the more u practice/use,the worse it gets.also here is this line from itachi:
"the third and final techmique along with tsukiyami and amataresu,that awoke within those eyes on that fateful day" (http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/392/02/)

so to me it clearly suggests that the day one awakens ms he gets to use his MS techs right away,if not fully or most effectively.so the case is the same for sasuke i suppose,its just that he didn't get to use more of MS other than amataresu in the battle against KillerB.

2.i think sasuke has a different jutsu than itachi that is he has 'enton' in his other eye that allows him to control amataresu.
the enton from other eye and not the clutched one (http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/464/01/).
so he as genius as he is used that to cover up the weak points of his susanoo.

3.about partial susanoo,to me it seems like a bad attempt at susanoo,rather than an invention(or mastering which was the case with CS)its just he figured out a use for that as well..i mean the common tendency of CS seemed to transform beyond the control of its user that is in case of CS toning it down is mastery,but susanoo does seems to be opposite of that. to make it clearer,in case of CS the stronger the jutsu(if u can call CS jutsu)the less is the mastery of the user.But susanoo seems to follow the more common rule that is the stronger the jutsu the greater is the mastery.from that point of view,i think that partial susanoo is merely a lesser susanoo.

so more or less,the progress so far does not seem to deviate too much from 'logical arrangement'.

[The_Drunk]

@ashher, if u had read my previous post(in the 1st page) u'll see that i don't have anything against MS and susano or sage mode(after all as u put it, they are the 2 main characters and thus need new power-ups or they'd just be suckers) but my problem is with the way kishi is making sasuke manipulate and use MS techs...its all too sudden 4 him 2 start inventing new things with amaterasu and partially transforming susano(which took him about 3 years to do with CS) Now, this is different from what u think i'm saying...(but on a side note, where the hell are the guys who voted free gifts??!)


Dude, it's pointless to argue with Sasuke lovers about it. Of course Sasuke has had the majority of his abilities given to him. After he defeated Oro he has not trained in any of the chapters. Susano, and Amaterasu were GIFTS. Infact, his brother died in order to give it to him. The only way Sasuke was able to attain new eyes was to for his brother to make the ultimate sacrifice. Itachi gave his brother the best gift he could give him... a new power up. It's not a random power up... it was an instant power up. Hell Sasuke didn't even know what Amaterasu was until Madara explained it to him. Sasuke lovers call that a random power up, but I call it a random gift. Ever since he got his gifts I've been scratching my head saying WTF. So if your wondering if anyone agrees with you... here I am... I just don't want to spend my afternoon arguing back and fourth with people who call it random powerups.. as if it was a normal thing in the Naruto manga.

[kingplaya(minato)]

@The_drunk(funny name) i feel better now that i've heard from u as i know i'm not in this alone...now, i can understand your pain about sasuke getting this strong without training too much(if at all) 4 it as we have all seen naruto sweat and train 4 each of the powers he posseses but sasuke got dashed MS by Itachi and didn't do much 4 his own power-up...but 4 the sake of story purposes i can also understand him being 'dashed' the MS(as without it he would be totally raped by the people he's fought so far!) so i just want 2 leave that aside...(on a side note, talking bout sasuke fanboys like that would bring the 5th ninja war 2 this thread...)
[hr]
@ashher, don't think i'm branding u as a sasuke fanboy(as i can see u're not bias) but there are couple of things i want 2 point out from your post....1. As u say when sasuke is fighting it is the same as practicing the MS...agreed, but my problem is that he had just found out he had susano then at that same fight he gets to put amaterasu around it...that was way 2 soon 4 me as given time yes he would have found out he could do it but at that time...its a no!....2. If itachi says he unlocked susano and everything by himself on that same day then it just goes 2 show that itachi is superior as sasuke got 2 unlock susano a few weeks after he acquired MS, this doesn't prove anything. Well we can argue this a bit more by saying itachi could never have been this good with tsukumi when he was just 13, so it means he improved as he went along and this is like 10 years now and same can be said of amaterasu and susano(meaning they got better with time) and so it definately(MS techs) gets better rather than worse...and lastly, i don't think i can agree with u that a partially formed susano like the 1 he used against danzo shows an incomplete state(the 1 against raikage definately is) and if any1 can partially transform anything then it means it is better...WHY??...because it expends less chakra and would be faster at bringing out than the full version also, people like jiraiya who can bring out just a part of his toad 2 use rather than the full version would spend less chakra and definately more skill 2 produce it. So my point is partially bringing out susano is a step-up rather than an incomplete version like the 1 against raikage. Hope u get my point now...

[Rikudou King]

Dude, it's pointless to argue with Sasuke lovers about it. Of course Sasuke has had the majority of his abilities given to him. After he defeated Oro he has not trained in any of the chapters. Susano, and Amaterasu were GIFTS. Infact, his brother died in order to give it to him. The only way Sasuke was able to attain new eyes was to for his brother to make the ultimate sacrifice. Itachi gave his brother the best gift he could give him... a new power up. It's not a random power up... it was an instant power up. Hell Sasuke didn't even know what Amaterasu was until Madara explained it to him. Sasuke lovers call that a random power up, but I call it a random gift. Ever since he got his gifts I've been scratching my head saying WTF. So if your wondering if anyone agrees with you... here I am... I just don't want to spend my afternoon arguing back and fourth with people who call it random powerups.. as if it was a normal thing in the Naruto manga. Don’t you think that’s sort of unfair. Why should we have to see him train for something that has been hinted at not needing any training? One moment Shikamaru was too weak to keep hold of Hiden, the next he had enough strength to lead him into a trap. Does that mean Shikamaru got a free power-up? You say that Sasuke hasn’t train since he left Orochimaru, What exactly would he be training? The only new thing that he has gain was MS, Everything else he had received from his three year training with Orochimaru. From the moment we’ve known about it, The way to gain MS was having the person you care about most die. All the other MS users gain it that way, So why wouldn’t Sasuke. If it’s a free power-up for Sasuke, Then it’s a free power-up for Itachi and Kakashi. We have been shown the progress of which Sasuke uses it. The first time Sasuke used it, he could barely control Amaterasu. A few weeks later, His control is greater. When Sasuke awakened Susanoo, It was a simple rib cage. After some effort, He drew out the full form. Point being, In the same way Naruto suddenly gets to be a sage master greater then Jiraiya after less then a week of concentrating, Sasuke gained MS by completing the requirements for it, Killing Itachi.

[M3J]

Dude, it's pointless to argue with Sasuke lovers about it. Of course Sasuke has had the majority of his abilities given to him. After he defeated Oro he has not trained in any of the chapters. Susano, and Amaterasu were GIFTS. Infact, his brother died in order to give it to him. The only way Sasuke was able to attain new eyes was to for his brother to make the ultimate sacrifice. Itachi gave his brother the best gift he could give him... a new power up. It's not a random power up... it was an instant power up. Hell Sasuke didn't even know what Amaterasu was until Madara explained it to him. Sasuke lovers call that a random power up, but I call it a random gift. Ever since he got his gifts I've been scratching my head saying WTF. So if your wondering if anyone agrees with you... here I am... I just don't want to spend my afternoon arguing back and fourth with people who call it random powerups.. as if it was a normal thing in the Naruto manga.

So he has to train in the chapters to show that he's trained? We didn't see Karin heal him in the chapters, does that mean he wasn't healed? It's not fair to say Sasuke's gotten free gifts for anything. If Itachi gave Sasuke a new powerup, why isn't his MS shown when Sasuke uses it? And what if it was the same for Itachi, he didn't know a thing about Mangekyou Sharingan until Madara taught him? Is that a powerup? I thought Sasuke knew what Amaterasu was. O_o But anyway, he's been put in life threatening situation to use and build up his powers. Madara's been training him to master his MS, probably the way he did Itachi.
It's not EMS, so usage of MS will increase the rate of the eyes being sealed. Madara probably taught him how to activate his MS and use 'em without actually using 'em.

[The_Drunk]

@kingplaya.... You see what I mean.... already I have people trying to convince me that they aren't power up gifts. That Sasuke's been training with Madara or that he's already had Susano and Amaterasu as if it was his birth right. You see what I'm talking about. They twist and imagine stuff that isn't in the manga. Don't get me wrong, there's nothing wrong with an active imagination, but they ignore the facts and I've learned it's pointless arguing with them. For example:

M3J see's Madara as secretly training Sasuke by forcing him to fight. But no where in the manga does it say that Madara is training Sasuke how to use it. If he would just go by the manga and not his active imagination he would see that nowhere in the manga does it refer to Sasuke training after the death of Oro. M3J if your reading this don't take it the wrong way... I understand everyone has an opinion but please show us a link that states Madara is training Sasuke and I'll take it back and give you my full apologies.
Other people see this totally differently. I've read people saying that the reason Madara is pushing Sasuke to fight is so that he's eyes will close faster and Sasuke will be force to use Itachi's eyes. So M3J see's it as training while other people see it as forcing Sasuke to waste his eyes. Bottom line it's all imagination until the manga refers to one of them.
Rikudou King tales me if I think that's unfair to assume we should see Sasuke train. Your right we don't have to see him train but atleast refer to him training in the manga.... like this....::::

Karin: Sasuke been training all night
Jugo: Ya the forest is up in flames
Madar: His training is moving along better than I expected.

but instead he was given a gift... let me point it out to you.... first Sasuke just used Amaterasu for the first time and didn't even know what the hell he had done... reference http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/397/07/
Then you have Madara telling Sasuke that it was implanted by Itachi
http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/397/08/
and the most important one of all.... the page that mentions the reason why he died for Sasuke.... so that Sasuke could attain a new power.... http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/401/13/ Itachi had died to give Sasuke the greatest gift he could give him... another power up. You see Kingplaya... I have the whole manga to point things out and show everyone that yes they were gifts, but the only thing they can tell me "don't you think that's unfair." This is it for me... Kingplaya... I'm done stating the facts not imagination. Oh and by the way you shouldn't worry about Sasuke's power ups... I'm sure Kishi's just trying to show the contrast between Sasuke and Naruto... Sasuke is given power up gifts without having to work hard or even train for that matter while Naruto has to train hard in order to achieve his abilities. It will be worth it in the end when Naruto whoops Sasuke's ass!

[Exodi]

Hm.....

People say that Naruto has worked hard in order to achieve his abilities. But some might see it a different way. Some might look at some of his abilities and liken them to the way Sasuke learned them:

1. Naruto had the Kyuubi sealed inside him as a baby. Sasuke was born with the Sharingan.
2. Kishimoto suddenly decided that Kage Bunshin had this unique ability to gain all the experiences of the clones. Usually when people talk about that they say "Why didn't Naruto notice that before?", but that can be considered a free power-up, no?
3. He then uses this power up to learn elemental re-composition and Sage Mode in fractions of the time it would normally take. Not that much different from Sasuke and his suddenly amazing usage/manipulation of MS techniques. AND they both suffered the mental/physical exhaustion, so...yeh.

I'm not downplaying Naruto's achievements, but it's possible that some might not seem them as amazing as others do. The point? This:

@The_Drunk
About the whole "active imagination" thing, I won't speak for anyone else, but....this is a discussion. None of us is the author so none of us know everything about the manga, and not everything is explained crystal clear (mystery helps make a story interesting~). Therefore, everyone -including yourself- is going to make assumptions, create theories, and use our "active imagination". No one's claiming that what they say is the absolute truth. Some simply want to share what they think, because, like I said, this is a discussion. Whether or not Sasuke's new abilities are "free power-up gifts" is really up to interpretation (much like what I say about Naruto's abilities above). And if it's pointless arguing, why continue writing long posts....? (like what I'm doing now. *sigh* :s)

Aaaaaaaaand now I'm done typing.

[M3J]

M3J see's Madara as secretly training Sasuke by forcing him to fight. But no where in the manga does it say that Madara is training Sasuke how to use it. If he would just go by the manga and not his active imagination he would see that nowhere in the manga does it refer to Sasuke training after the death of Oro. M3J if your reading this don't take it the wrong way... I understand everyone has an opinion but please show us a link that states Madara is training Sasuke and I'll take it back and give you my full apologies.
To be honest, I haven't really seen any indication of Madara training Sasuke the way we saw Sasuke training with Orochimaru. But Madara has stated he was training Sasuke by making him fight the Kage, as well as using him to kidnap them. Maybe Madara showed Sasuke how to use his Mangekyou Sharingan when we were focused on other characters.


Other people see this totally differently. I've read people saying that the reason Madara is pushing Sasuke to fight is so that he's eyes will close faster and Sasuke will be force to use Itachi's eyes. So M3J see's it as training while other people see it as forcing Sasuke to waste his eyes. Bottom line it's all imagination until the manga refers to one of them.
Didn't Madara say he was training Sasuke to use MS? O_o From what I've seen, Sasuke always tried to see if he could use a jutsu or do something with a jutsu every first time he's tried it.


Rikudou King tales me if I think that's unfair to assume we should see Sasuke train. Your right we don't have to see him train but atleast refer to him training in the manga.... like this....::::
But wouldn't training MS just make the eyes seal itself faster? Putting Sasuke in life threatening situation and forcing him to use MS would be better as he'd have a reason to let his eyes seal itself faster.


but instead he was given a gift... let me point it out to you.... first Sasuke just used Amaterasu for the first time and didn't even know what the hell he had done... reference http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/397/07/
Then you have Madara telling Sasuke that it was implanted by Itachi
http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/397/08/
and the most important one of all.... the page that mentions the reason why he died for Sasuke.... so that Sasuke could attain a new power.... http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/401/13/ Itachi had died to give Sasuke the greatest gift he could give him... another power up.

Sasuke didn't use Amaterasu, Itachi made it activate if it saw a Sharingan, hence Itachi's MS design being seen. And didn't Madara say Itachi transferred some of his powers to Sasuke that activated on Sharingan?
The new power was Mangekyou Sharingan, Sasuke's own Mangekyou Sharingan. Notice the design is different from Itachi's, as well as extra abilities.

[kingplaya(minato)]

Now i'll take this 1 by 1, @rikudou king, sasuke didn't awaken the MS but rather itachi found a way 2 pass it 2 him with his final touch(your argument is with the_drunk and i believe he has answered your post but i just wanted 2 point this out)....@M3J, i don't really get your post cuz sasuke has not had the time 2 train the MS at all, he got the MS recuperated from the itachi fight, fought killer bee, rested after that fight, started going towards konoha and madara caught up with him(the way they talked its clear they hadn't met since he left to fight killer bee) then when did madara have time 2 train him...and about karin that doesn't make sense at all cuz madara clearly told kirin 2 heal sasuke and where alone 4 at least 45 minutes...so all in all your post doesn't stand at all....@The_drunk, i can understand u wanting manga facts instead of 'active imagination' but time may come u'd be on the defensive and u might have 2 do just that...not saying u would go against your word and do that but its allowed in discussions as exodi said, so its left 4 us 2 counter it...
[hr]
@M3J, I meant your 1st post

[M3J]

Sasuke did train his MS when he fought Killerbee. He used Amaterasu and his MS genjutsu on his own without help. Against Raikage, he trained controlling Amaterasu and Susano'o. What I meant by Madara training Sasuke was by sending him on fights, against Killerbee, the kage, Danzo, etcetc.
And did we see Karin heal Sasuke? No, but does that mean it didn't happen? It doesn't, so same can be applied with Madara telling Sasuke how to use Mangekyou Sharingan. All we're doing is basing what we see in the panels rather than what is implied and what is probably thought to be behind panels.

[kingplaya(minato)]

@exodi, u write quite well so i'l have 2 be careful with u...1. I don't have any qualms about sasuke having the sharingan and naruto the kyuubi(although as at now naruto isn't using his 'birthright', i'd like 2 see sasuke do that....just kidding but still...) 2. Naruto's use of the kage bushin is definately a power-up albeit legal(and wouldn't it be dry if it stays normal) as he has long since had it but same can be said of sharingan when MS and all come into play and as i've said b4, i don't have any problem with that but its with the way he's developing it...if u say kage bushin's way of training then there is a catch 2 it...he TRAINED with it and boy do we know that wasn't easy but look at sasuke, he's using it like its been with him his whole life!...3. umm...i think i just argued that along with the second...my bad...
[hr]
@M3J, u're still going on about karin not healing sasuke when madara was SHOWN telling her 2 heal sasuke and she agreed, now this is way different from something we haven't even a clue that it happened in this case being madara telling sasuke how 2 use the MS...maybe this is sasuke's training of his MS, but 4 Christ's sake he just found out that he had susano(against raikage) and the next second he controls amaterasu around it when he just got it(itachi that had it 4 years didnt do it) and its the same as saying naruto found out he could use KB 2 train and the same day he masters elemental recomposition or rasenshuriken(that would draw blood among sasuke fanboys, not calling u 1 though) so it doesn't make sense...given some time yes we could all accept it but now is 2 early 4 that...we haven't spoken about the hawk summoning yet and this is serious bullcrap 2 me and i've said it in some discussions b4, anytime naruto has a new tech there is usually a flashback(oodema rasengan, breaking genjustu) but this(hawk summon) doesn't even have some1 comment on it let alone a flashback 2 tell us how he learnt it...

[zagorka]

Well, from the start of Part 2, we understood that Sasuke was training with Orochimaru over the time-skip and the results were amazing. He became a very well-rounded ninja. Frankly I was impressed with his progress, and figured that over the course of Part 2, he'd grow gradually as well. After he absorbed Orochimaru, he took his abilities. It was quite convenient, but still, I didn't really have a problem with this either. It was the nature of the technique after all. Once his Cursed Seal was removed, along with Orochimaru, Sasuke obtained the Mangekyou, which in itself is activated through some emotional heartbreak, whatever... It's the sharingan that becomes overly annoying in my opinion, in that it does so much. It hardly has limits in what it can do. It can predict, it provides the user the ability maximize one's speed during battle through additional prediction, casts genjutsu, and copies techniques (although to what extent isn't really clear). Then the mangekyou does even more, and the EMS, even more.

First I'll mention that right after Sasuke gained his mangekyou techniques, he used them as if he was an expert. This comes off as a bit awkward. Did Sasuke train before hand his mangekyou techniques, before he fought against the 5 Kages, and Danzou? One would most likely say, no, because of the risk. Even if Sasuke didn't mind the risk, did he even have time to practice a bit? Time is also an issue as it's not clear how much time lapsed after he delivered the fake Killerbee, till the end of his healing session. What came off as complete and utter BS was when Sasuke was manipulating Amaterasu flames. While I'm not saying he shouldn't have this ability, the mere fact that he's able to upsets me. But giving Sasuke the benefit of the doubt, fine. But then there is Susanoo, and that's another thing that just popped out of nowhere. He activated it, and uses it as if he's a pro again, even to the point where he can activate just a portion of it, as was seen when Sasuke grabbed Danzou. Again, if we give Sasuke the benefit of the doubt, in which he used his knowledge of how the curse seal worked and somehow practiced his MS techniques while he was healing, then I would say fine to some extent. Again, the abilities are born within him, which are apart of his blood-line. He just needs to learn how to use it. I think this is where people have a problem with Sasuke saying that he never trained for any of these things. But this is how his bloodline works. So it's not necessarily Sasuke's fault. It's the sharingan's (Kishi) fault for being so convenient for the user, and that it does sooooo much. And now to Sasuke learning how to summon hawks/birds. This is a bit too convenient, being that his team is named Team Hawk. Personally, I want to know when he got it. Again the issue of time, is a huge problem. Because if he got it during his trip towards the Iron Country, I'll be very upset. To get a summoning contract supposedly is hard to achieve.

But as the story goes on, Sasuke will definitely become more blind, in which he'll need an upgrade. And what I fear the most is that Sasuke has copied techniques from those of Raikage. So the EMS probably won't be his final power-up. Even if he creates his own version of Raikage's techniques to suit himself, this will probably happen. Achieving more speed is definitely going to be something Sasuke will seek as well. There's no doubt that Sasuke is a top tier shinobi right now. He has weaknesses, but they are minimal at this point. They are very few people in the manga, if that, that can battle against Sasuke now. But I wouldn't say his power-ups are exactly gifts. It's just that the sharingan is something very unique and amazing to have it seems. But his hawk summoning as of now does appear as just a gift. Many people do like Sasuke mostly because he is a well rounded ninja though. I don't deny this, but this is because he's able to offer so much on the battlefield. He can mix up techniques and a fight that includes Sasuke does become interesting, at least in terms of guessing what he'll do next. While Naruto on the other hand, you pretty much know what to expect.

Seriously though, both Naruto and Sasuke grow at incredible speeds at the dumbest of times. Naruto spent 2.5 years training and he didn't really gain anything. But after a few plot devices, he was given full mastery over Sage Mode in a few days. Sasuke is given abilities due to the sharingan, due to plot-devices as well. The thing that annoys me the most is that training periods are neglected. We don't have a good understanding of time in this manga. All that is required is a few panels, showing what each character is doing to improve themselves. Sasuke could have been shown in a panel or two practicing his MS techniques. If not this, then at least some acknowledgment through words that he did something! For instance Karin could say, "So this is what he was practicing for during the early morning a few days ago!", while Sasuke shows off new techs. Personally I don't know why Kishi doesn't see the problem here... Unless he is rushing the end, where he doesn't really care about how easily one obtains new techniques.

[Rikudou King]

Rikudou King tales me if I think that's unfair to assume we should see Sasuke train. Your right we don't have to see him train but atleast refer to him training in the manga.... like this....::::

Karin: Sasuke been training all night
Jugo: Ya the forest is up in flames
Madar: His training is moving along better than I expected.

but instead he was given a gift... let me point it out to you.... first Sasuke just used Amaterasu for the first time and didn't even know what the hell he had done... reference http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/397/07/
Then you have Madara telling Sasuke that it was implanted by Itachi
http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/397/08/
and the most important one of all.... the page that mentions the reason why he died for Sasuke.... so that Sasuke could attain a new power.... http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/401/13/ Itachi had died to give Sasuke the greatest gift he could give him... another power up. You see Kingplaya... I have the whole manga to point things out and show everyone that yes they were gifts, but the only thing they can tell me "don't you think that's unfair." This is it for me... Kingplaya... I'm done stating the facts not imagination. Oh and by the way you shouldn't worry about Sasuke's power ups... I'm sure Kishi's just trying to show the contrast between Sasuke and Naruto... Sasuke is given power up gifts without having to work hard or even train for that matter while Naruto has to train hard in order to achieve his abilities. It will be worth it in the end when Naruto whoops Sasuke's ass! Firstly, Have we ever been give any reference that any character besides Naruto in Part 2 having trained? No. At the beginning of Part 2, Kakashi had trouble focusing and aiming Kamui. But later on during the invasion, He was able to use it quicker and with better accuracy. Should we believe that Kakashi just suddenly got better just because there was no reference to him training? Just because we don't see something doesn't mean it's not happening. We never seen or heard of Sasuke and co eating, But that doesn't mean they aren't. We didn't hear about Suigetsu going back for his sword, But it's clear that he did. It's not as if we see every single moment of Sasuke time. We have gaps between the action for Sasuke to handle the plain stuff. The author, Kishi, Expects us to infer for ourselves what is going on between scenes by giving us the end results once we see them.

Secondly, Every single example of someone with a bloodline limit have shown that they were able to use their abilities without any training. Haku was not only able to manipulate water without any training beforehand, But was able to automatically defend himself when he was in danger with a massive glacier. Nagato had no knowledge of ninjutsu and still was able to use the Rinnegan to defeat ninjas more experience then him. Not once have we ever been given the example of someone with a bloodline limit having to actually train to use their bloodline limit. From what we know, Itachi gained his MS by killing Shisui, Which happen about a week before he murdered the rest of the clan. Yet he was still able to fully use Tsukuyomi. That's proof that excessive training isn't required to master the MS. So what's wrong with Sasuke using his MS just as well after more or less the same amount of time.

Itachi implanted a one shot Amaterasu in Sasuke in hopes that it would kill Madara if he appeared to mislead Sasuke. That Amaterasu and Sasuke’s own are two completely different things. It was spelled out clearly in the databook, The whole “fact” about the Transcription Seal: Amaterasu. Yeah, Itachi planned on dying so that Sasuke would gain MS ( Well technically Itachi wanted to give Sasuke EMS, But Sasuke had refused to kill Naruto earlier). But Itachi sure as heck didn’t make it easy. He drove Sasuke to the very edge in order to make sure he was ready to handle it. Sasuke gained his MS after a heralding fight and learning the truth about his clan. That was hardly something that can be called free.

Speaking of Naruto beating Sasuke, What hard work did Naruto do to gain the gift of the Kyuubi's chakra and that thing Itachi gave him to save Sasuke? Quite interesting that Naruto had to be given something in order to counter Sasuke’s abilities, But here you are praising Naruto for working hard.


rikudou king, sasuke didn't awaken the MS but rather itachi found a way 2 pass it 2 him with his final touch(your argument is with the_drunk and i believe he has answered your post but i just wanted 2 point this out).... All Itachi gave Sasuke was the Transcription Seal: Amaterasu, A one shot deal to kill Madara. Sasuke MS was gained separately from that, After learning the truth about the Uchiha Massacre.

FUUINJUTSU; TENSHA FUUIN: AMATERASU (Sealing technique. Transcription Seal: Amaterasu)
User: Uchiha Itachi

Main text

Amaterasu is a Katon-type ninjutsu of the highest rank, exclusively accessible to those who have awakened to Mangekyou Sharingan. The act of sealing that effect into someone else's sharingan is called Tensha Fuuin: Amaterasu. When the image of the specified target is reflected into the pupil the jutsu was sealed in, the seal will unbind, and "the Black Flames that devour fire itself" will swoop down on their prey!!

Captions

The raging Black Flames, delivered by means of the sharingan!!

The pitch-black, world-destroying conflagration, now blazing!!

Picture comments

The sharingan Amaterasu was sealed in will catch the target determined by the caster...

The pitch-black, raging fire bursts from the eye, and charges at its mark! No jutsu can allow one to escape from its fury!
Link. (http://mangahelpers.com/forums/showthread.php?t=45481)

[M3J]

@M3J, u're still going on about karin not healing sasuke when madara was SHOWN telling her 2 heal sasuke and she agreed, now this is way different from something we haven't even a clue that it happened in this case being madara telling sasuke how 2 use the MS...maybe this is sasuke's training of his MS, but 4 Christ's sake he just found out that he had susano(against raikage) and the next second he controls amaterasu around it when he just got it(itachi that had it 4 years didnt do it) and its the same as saying naruto found out he could use KB 2 train and the same day he masters elemental recomposition or rasenshuriken(that would draw blood among sasuke fanboys, not calling u 1 though) so it doesn't make sense...given some time yes we could all accept it but now is 2 early 4 that...
I never meant to imply Karin didn't heal Sasuke. My point was, or is, that just because we don't see something happening (Karin healing Sasuke) doesn't mean it didn't happen. Same with Madara probably telling Sasuke about his MS. And Sasuke was using his jutsu for the first time, he was testing them out. Same with controlling Amaterasu, he probably had the ability to do it but had to learn how. And who says Itachi didn't do it? It was said his control wasn't as good as Sasuke's, no?
I dislike Sasuke, but even I know he didn't get free gifts. Mangekyou Sharingan is different from elemental recomposition or recomposing rasengan elementally. Just activating MS slowly starts sealing your eyes, and using it seals it faster, so training with it wouldn't help, would it? Whereas training how to recompose element and doing it to rasengan doesn't have longlasting negative effect. Just temporary mental strain, probably, and lower chakra.


we haven't spoken about the hawk summoning yet and this is serious bullcrap 2 me and i've said it in some discussions b4, anytime naruto has a new tech there is usually a flashback(oodema rasengan, breaking genjustu) but this(hawk summon) doesn't even have some1 comment on it let alone a flashback 2 tell us how he learnt it...

Maybe we'll see the summoning later? And there wasn't a flashback in the manga regarding Naruto learning oodama rasengan, was there? O_o

[kingplaya(minato)]

@rikudou king, sasuke's abilities and those of the examples u gave are completely different so i'l counter them 1 by 1... At the beginning of part 2 till the invasion, about 7 months has passed and that is more than enough time 4 kakashi 2 practice with his MS(and he's a genius) whereas, sasuke just got susano in 1 fight and immediately starts using it like a pro and thank God it was shown that kakashi had trouble with it and after 7 months he got better so if sasuke had that much time i wouldn't complain but he didn't so this point doesn't stand....about people with bloodline limit, haku and nagato where both in danger and didn't know what the heck they were doing when they defended themselves....later on zabuza was shown sayin that haku had 2 TRAIN 4 sometime b4 he mastered his ice tech(i'm not good with posting links but its in the manga) and nagato himself didn't know what he was doing when using the rinnegan but sasuke's bringing out of susano when in distress is enough 4 us 2 know that he has a bloodline limit but going on 2 use it like a pro is just overkill(haku , nagato and kakashi had 2 TRAIN 2 become better but sasuke...) about itachi not giving sasuke his MS, i'l look that up in the manga but i was kinda sure that itachi gave sasuke his MS but if that's not the case then i'l be man(or boy cuz i'm 15) enough 2 admit a mistake and would thank u 4 correcting me....but i don't think that changes much of our 'liltle' argument(i'm using my phone 2 browse cuz ma PC has been disconnected and i can't check the manga with my phone...so i'l check it out later and get back 2 u on it...)

[Kusachu]

Sasuke is a jutsu specialist, according DB3, he has a 5 in ninjustu. He's trained under Orochimaru, so he knows a lot of jutsu and can create his own as well. He was creating his own jutsu before the series even began! He learned Katon Goukakyuu justu from his father when he was eight (only the handseals). However, he taught himself or created the Katon Housenka and Katon Ryuuka Jutsu's without any help.

Please read the following below, I've already posted this before and I'm going to post it again.

don't be surprised if he shows us new jutsu's later on. Orochimaru taught him jutsu's which were most likely non-elemental. The elemental chidori jutsu's he has, for example, the Chidori sword or senbon are jutsu he's developed himself since Orochimaru did not even know about them and was surprised. Sasuke could theoretically have even learned hundreds of jutsu's from Orochimaru. I've already given the example above of him asking Orochimaru to teach him a new jutsu on that specific day, implying he could have possibly been taught jutsu's every week or even everyday. I wouldn't even be surprised if he has learned Edo Tensei from Orochimaru, since he talks about reviving his clan a lot.

I'm actually eager to see his fights and jutsu's. I'm hoping he's made his own version of Raiton armor, he wouldn't even need the sharingan to copy the Raikage's move since he is an excellent Raiton user. He's already shown that he can use Raiton throughout his body to soften the impact of blows prevent fatal wounds, during the fight against Killerbee (Kirabi). Not to mention that he can channel the Chidor Nagashi throughout his body as a defensive move. Furthermore, I wonder if he can summon the Triple Rashomon Demon Gates Orochimaru used to shield himself against four-tailed Naruto?

Nonetheless, time and time again, the manga has questioned Sasuke's abilities and whether they are because of his bloodline. However, Sasuke immediately proves that he's skilled. For example, Deidara ridicules him, stating that he was only able to kill Orochimaru because he's an Uchiha.
http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/357/07/
take a look at what happened after that:
http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/357/08/

Let's not forget Zetsu's famous quote, "an expert with a pebble can still beat a novice with a shuriken." This was after Sasuke broke out of Itachi's Tsukiyomi, it was impressive. Now if you want to talk about ridiculous power-ups (some I consider to be forced from the author, in other words "free), I suggest you take a look at Sage Mode Naruto! Unlike the Mangekyou, which like anyother good power-up, debilitates the user (eats away at chakra and eyesight), Sage Mode takes external and renewable natural energy and enhances nearly all of Naruto's stats! He has super strength enough to toss a Rhino summon, speed enhancement, hax punches with extended range meaning you don't even have to connect with the target, enhanced genjutsu, enhanced ninjutsu, can throw Rasengans and expand them before impact, and has now even become a powerful sensor type! That's just ridiculous and let's not forget that he's mastered it in a week or less, something his master couldn't even do in fifty years! Let's also take time to remember the Kyuubi which gives him near-limitless chakra and he can even add some of that chakra to his Sage Mode!


Edited by request: Excellent post. :clap


I just want to add that Sasuke is also extremely skilled at using tools. He's an excellent marksman and he uses a variety of edged weapons along with wires to trap a target. He is also an expert at kendo and has one pimp of a sword. And have you seen his taijutsu? He kicks all kinds of ass at taijutsu and has always displayed skill at such. I never considered any of those "free" since he obviously worked very hard to get that good. All of those things, with the exception of being given the sword, are things that he has trained hard to master.

That leaves elemental manipulation. Kakashi taught him that because he was ready at that time and he mastered the technique quickly, but still with much effort. That he was able to figure out for himself how to expand his particular elemental control in three years is not a big leap for a guy like him, and i thought this fact had been obvious from the beginning. He was always number 1 after all. Even Kakashi noted that Sasuke's initial skills were beyond what he expected.

He spent years training ruthlessly to be as good as he is at everything besides his coveted ability. He got lucky with his bloodline since he's obviously in the head Uchiha family, which I assume would be the strongest of them, so in essence, yes, that gift was handed to him, but he had to sacrifice everything to get Mangekyou, just like Itachi did, and Kakashi didn't really have anything to begin with (in canon, that is), so I wouldn't say that it was just handed out for free. I mean, he trained himself enough to break itachi's genjutsu after all.

Also, I've said it before, and it may or may not be true, but I can't help but notice that Itachi conveniently showed Sasuke all three of Mangekyou's jutsu in one fight while Sasuke looked on with Sharingan, so I wouldn't be surprised if he was able to see, disect, and copy those skills. Yes, Itachi put the failsafe in Sasuke's eye, but the only reason why he should have been able to do that is because Sasuke's eyes already had awakened the ability to handle the jutsu in the first place. I don't think Sasuke's Mangekyou just magically awakened after Itachi put blood in his eye, and uif I'm wrong then oh well.

I just sort of figure that even with all the battles he's had, he hasn't been showing us everything he can possibly do, he just only uses as much as he needs to depending on his opponent. With Orochimaru it was his Chidori and his Sharingan's ability to control, and with Deidara it was an expansion on that plus the cursed seal and his summoning and genjutsu ability, then with Itachi it was clear that he had developed all the areas which he needed to excel at to defeat Itachi. With Bee and the Kage it was exploring Mangekyou's (because Madara wanted him to "grow them" abilities and understanding them more. Itachi could use his Mangekyou after only having it like a day after all, so why can't Sasuke?

Now with Danzou i expect to see even more from him. But I don't think he's just going to pull things out of thin air (like the Hawk). I just assume that he's still got all sorts of tricks up his sleeve that he picked up along the way that he hasn't needed to use yet. It's just the way his character is made. I also wouldn't be surprised to see Kakashi whip out any of the 1000 random jutsu he's supposed to know. If Kakahsi can learn 1000 justu with his Sharingan, then I wouldn't put it past Sasuke to have at least that many.

So yeah, I'm gonna have to say no, not free at all.

Oh yeah, and about Zetsu's comment about the master with a pebble, um, remember Sasuke's first encounter with Gaara? You know, with the pebble?

http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/35/04/


And I thought I'd add these pages just for fun. Check what Sasuke has to say to Naruto about him "hogging the spotlight". ;)

http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/34/05/

http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/34/06/

You want to talk about free hax, look at Danzou. All he had to do was get someone else to murder a bunch of people for him to be hax.

[soulbane_zp]

Yes, Sasuke gets free gifts, and Naruto needs to train for every ability he gains. When he was training on FRS the first time it was a hard training and in the end he couldn't use it up until he got sage mode which again he cannot use it effectively since he cannot maintain it with the frogs becouse of the QB.

And lol at ppl comparing sharingan and QB as powerups. First Naruto uses a lot of his chakra to keep the QB in check, without the QB he would have a lot more chakra and much better chakra control. He only uses the QB chakra in desperate conditions and it nearly killed him the last time, it shortens his life damages his body. The only upside to having the QB would be the faster regeneration. And now the QB is again an obstacle in his sage mode forcing him to come up with other ways of maintaining it.

Now if he learns to use the QB as Killer Bee that would be another story. But again he will need to train in order to develop techniques with the QB. It would not be like just having the QB sealed inside of him he can use all of the tailed forms without a problem or any training put in to it like Sasuke is doing now with the MS. Just by obtaining it he can immediately use every tech that goes with it, without even knowing wth he is doing. That i call a free powerup.

[Darth Executor]

I don't like the options. I do not think he got power-ups the normal way (training), but I also do not think he got them for free. The MS cost him his brother and with him, his sanity.

[kingplaya(minato)]

@rikudou king, i just checked out the manga and what i saw was madara telling sasuke that "at the last moment itachi somehow managed 2 transfer all of his eye techiniques 2 him(sasuke)" its at onemanga.com/naruto397pg.11...(i don't whether this is a link or not but its on that page) @M3J, the manga doesn't show jiraiya teaching naruto the oodema rasengan but its in the anime, sorry 4 the mixup...but as u said that the hawk would be explained later so till then we'll take it as a gift(cuz sasuke sure as hell didn't learn it under oro and since then i've not seen anytime 4 him 2 learn it so until Kishi proves otherwise, its a 'gift')
[hr]
@M3J, 2 me u are still implying the same thing cuz we haven't a clue(i.e, even a panel) that madara just said..."now sasuke, i'm going 2 tell u about the MS secrets" that has never occured so i think you're just assuming something that is not in the manga whereas we had a clue(panel) telling us that sasuke was about 2 get healed...please just get my point about sasuke being able 2 use susano like a pro in 1 fight, he gets susano this moment in the raikage fight and the next he's putting amaterasu around it...that is way 2 fast 4 me and the partial transformation of susano when at the end of his previous fight he's just bringing out the full form so when did he learn how 2 do just that?? In madara's space world?... I doubt that...

[Rikudou King]

@rikudou king, sasuke's abilities and those of the examples u gave are completely different so i'l counter them 1 by 1... At the beginning of part 2 till the invasion, about 7 months has passed and that is more than enough time 4 kakashi 2 practice with his MS(and he's a genius) whereas, sasuke just got susano in 1 fight and immediately starts using it like a pro and thank God it was shown that kakashi had trouble with it and after 7 months he got better so if sasuke had that much time i wouldn't complain but he didn't so this point doesn't stand The comment was about Sasuke using something without being referred to as training it, Which I pointed out also applies to Kakashi. Not once did he or anyone else ever mention the idea that he was training to be better at using Kamui. So according to your and The Drunk’s logic, Him being better at it is clearly a free power-up that he doesn’t deserve. We have witness the progression of Sasuke use of Susanoo. You make it sound as if Sasuke suddenly popped it up with no trouble. Susanoo isn’t that complex, And there’s really nothing one would have to “train in” in order to use it. The mere act of summoning it creates a protective shield around him that mimics movement. What exactly is required for him to train in?


about people with bloodline limit, haku and nagato where both in danger and didn't know what the heck they were doing when they defended themselves....later on zabuza was shown sayin that haku had 2 TRAIN 4 sometime b4 he mastered his ice tech(i'm not good with posting links but its in the manga) and nagato himself didn't know what he was doing when using the rinnegan but sasuke's bringing out of susano when in distress is enough 4 us 2 know that he has a bloodline limit but going on 2 use it like a pro is just overkill(haku , nagato and kakashi had 2 TRAIN 2 become better but sasuke...) Sasuke too was in trouble each time he drew out his MS techniques. He was getting pummel by Kirabi when he used Amaterasu and was about to be killed by Ee when he drew his mini Susanoo. Both those situations are similar to how Haku and Nagato drew out their own power. Zabuza never mention that Haku had to train to use his bloodline limit. What Zabuza said was that he train Haku in the ways of the shinobi. Neither is there anything about Nagato having to train his abilities, Only that he was taught stuff by Jiraiya. Sasuke had already brought Susanoo out once, So why wouldn’t he be able to do it again? Again, Using Susanoo isn’t that complex.


@rikudou king, i just checked out the manga and what i saw was madara telling sasuke that "at the last moment itachi somehow managed 2 transfer all of his eye techiniques 2 him(sasuke)" its at onemanga.com/naruto397pg.11...(i don't whether this is a link or not but its on that page That was merely the Amaterasu to kill Madara, Nothing else. Sasuke only got one thing from Itachi and that was it. The databook make that clear.


Yes, Sasuke gets free gifts, and Naruto needs to train for every ability he gains. When he was training on FRS the first time it was a hard training and in the end he couldn't use it up until he got sage mode which again he cannot use it effectively since he cannot maintain it with the frogs becouse of the QB.

And lol at ppl comparing sharingan and QB as powerups. First Naruto uses a lot of his chakra to keep the QB in check, without the QB he would have a lot more chakra and much better chakra control. He only uses the QB chakra in desperate conditions and it nearly killed him the last time, it shortens his life damages his body. The only upside to having the QB would be the faster regeneration. And now the QB is again an obstacle in his sage mode forcing him to come up with other ways of maintaining it.

Now if he learns to use the QB as Killer Bee that would be another story. But again he will need to train in order to develop techniques with the QB. It would not be like just having the QB sealed inside of him he can use all of the tailed forms without a problem or any training put in to it like Sasuke is doing now with the MS. Just by obtaining it he can immediately use every tech that goes with it, without even knowing wth he is doing. That i call a free powerup. The complaint was that Sasuke was able to use his MS without doing any work for it, Which is the same as Naruto and the Kyuubi. With the Kyuubi, Naruto gets protection even if he’s defeated, Like in his fight with Sasuke and Deva Pain. The Kyuubi is only dangerous if he goes about three tails, Which doesn’t apply to Naruto drawing chakra out without worry. Naruto not being able to use the toads to help with his Sage Mode is a non issue since he found just as easy a way to do it anyway.

That’s the benefit of every single bloodline limit we know of, Instantly knowing how to use it once you get it. That doesn’t mean that Sasuke didn’t have a hell of a time archiving it.

[Eman]

Not really, Naruto never paid attention during school and opted to skip his classes.
Take a look at him dipping class here:
http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/154/07/
Here he is being scolded for that:
http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/154/08/

He had trouble "concentrating", which explains why he has such a hard time learning things. Whereas Sasuke actually stayed in school, did his homework, and had good grades, which means he learned the material! Take a look here if you don't believe me:
http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/223/05/

Even after being taught a jutsu by his father, he ended up disappointing him by failing to produce an adaquete Katon Goukakyuu Jutsu. His father even remarked that he wasn't like Itachi. Sasuke then trains night and day for a week to master the technique, you can see for yourself here:
http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/223/09/

He's also done the same thing with kunai practice. Sasuke wasn't a true genius like Itachi or Kakashi who both graduated from the academy early. He graduated at the same time as Naruto and the Konoha 12. People like to call him a "genius", I just think he's a very hard-working person who has a clear goal. When it comes to ninjutsu, he's incredibly creative. He actually thought of the idea of manipulating Amaterasu into different shapes and forms.

Naruto and other "hard-working" people like Rock Lee may cry because things are difficult for them. Yet, it doesn't change the fact that people like Sasuke and Neji work very hard and train for their powers. Things were just easier for Sasuke because he worked hard consistently whereas Naruto lagged behind all these years and he's feeling the consequences for that now.

Sasuke worked for his skills up until he killed Orochimaru. Afterwards, any skills he has acquired were freebies (Amaterasu, Susanoo, Tsukyome, new Summon, Itachi crow technique).

Naruto slacked off in the beginning (before the manga began). However, since then he has worked hard the whole way.

[MegaX]

I consider partial susanoo, like the image below, to possibly indicate some level of mastery. Use of MS techniques is supposed to cause one to lose the light, and use of Susanoo is supposed to cost the user his life force. So, I think that when using a high level partial Susanoo, the person may be limiting the amount the MS technique harms their eyes, and may also limit how much life force Susanoo consumes.

http://img684.imageshack.us/img684/8421/1314f.jpg

http://www.mangatoshokan.com/read/Naruto/Japflap/466/6

Take note of the second-to-last panel.


Sasuke: I couldn't even get it to fully materialize, and my whole body is burning with pain... I can't imagine how much Itachi suffered...

Sasuke himself attributes the partial Susanoo to inexperience.

[Exodi]

1. Itachi implanted Amaterasu in Sasuke's eyes only AFTER that long battle.
2. Sasuke fought VERY hard, had all of his chakra drained, and could have died against Itachi.
3. And only because Itachi died did Sasuke gain MS and its techniques.
4. If almost dying isn't hard work, then what is?

This is why Amaterasu, Susanoo, Tsukiyomi are not "free power ups". They would be if Itachi decided to just poke Sasuke's forehead without fighting at all, but then Sasuke wouldn't have gained MS. Itachi's death was the price Sasuke paid for his MS. People look at the individual techniques and forget that Sasuke wouldn't have them if he didn't have the Mangekyou (that he gained through Itachi's death).

Holy crap...most redundant paragraph ever. But I'm trying to make a point.

Sasuke has worked JUST as hard as Naruto. It's not like he sat around thinking about killing Itachi. He's suffered just as much as Naruto, too.

Though....the things he's doing now make it hard for anyone to feel bad for him :D

[jdw]

http://www.mangatoshokan.com/read/Naruto/Japflap/466/6

Take note of the second-to-last panel.



Sasuke himself attributes the partial Susanoo to inexperience.

So it seems at that time he was trying to go full but could not. But in this instance, I believe he did it on purpose just to grab Danzou, which to me suggests a level of mastery. Thanks anyway for pointing that out.

[M3J]

@M3J, the manga doesn't show jiraiya teaching naruto the oodema rasengan but its in the anime, sorry 4 the mixup...but as u said that the hawk would be explained later so till then we'll take it as a gift(cuz sasuke sure as hell didn't learn it under oro and since then i've not seen anytime 4 him 2 learn it so until Kishi proves otherwise, its a 'gift')

Hope you're not counting anime though, since it's not wholly canon. The anime does include many fillers. :(
But then everyone who can summon animals received free gift, then. You don't learn to summon hawks, you learn to summon animals, then sign a contract with animals.


@M3J, 2 me u are still implying the same thing cuz we haven't a clue(i.e, even a panel) that madara just said..."now sasuke, i'm going 2 tell u about the MS secrets" that has never occured so i think you're just assuming something that is not in the manga whereas we had a clue(panel) telling us that sasuke was about 2 get healed...please just get my point about sasuke being able 2 use susano like a pro in 1 fight, he gets susano this moment in the raikage fight and the next he's putting amaterasu around it...that is way 2 fast 4 me and the partial transformation of susano when at the end of his previous fight he's just bringing out the full form so when did he learn how 2 do just that?? In madara's space world?... I doubt that...

He probably saw Itachi use it and kinda learned or got the gist of it. He probably tried desperately to summon Susano'o, and use it. In desperation miracles can happen. And remember, Sasuke is a genius, so he probably found out how to use Susano'o. And it's been said that he could control Amaterasu better than Itachi and had more powerful eyes. And he slowly learned about his MS abilities, especially when testing it out.
He brought out the full form of Susano'o? O_O

[kkck]

I am not sure exactly how to determine whether sasuke's powerups were free. In a wide context I would have to say FUCK NO.

Curse Seal:
Sasuke was basically raped by oro in order for it to be given to him. On top of that he had to almost die twice for it to reach the initial and second stage. What's more, it filled his heart with more hatred, lead to sasuke leaving konoha and ultimately made him lose his own will to orochimaru(he got past that though). Later on he showed remarkable skill using partial transformations and used the extra power and limbs and whatnot to the fullest(he could fly for crying out loud). That definitely took some serious training.

Orochimaru:
Sasuke almost got killed in the process of exchanging bodies. He had to face freaking orochimaru for crying out load. Hardly free IMHO. He also had to supress oro with his own willpower and chakra. He did show remarkable skill using this new found power which IMHO isn't something anyone with a parasite of that nature would be capable of.

MS:
He had to lose his big bro for it. He loses a bit of his sight and even life when using it. He seems remarkably skilled with it and it seems to be mostly due to his immense talent but I do think he did train a bit off screen to use it. He was born with sharingan and the possibility of having MS but it is only due to his long training, hard work and talent that he managed to get this far with it.

Now, I think the main problem here is that sasuke is a talented ninja and can therefore learn things very fast. I don't think having talent is something you can hold against the dude. It makes no sense. It's kinda like those kids in a real class who are REALLY good at math and seem to have an easy time at it. Can the rest of the class which is average or lower at math hold it against him? Nope, it is absurd. Is it fair? It doesn't have to and this particular context should not be considered in such terms. Saying it is unfair is an excuse of the less talented.

[insid3rkill3r]

Sasuke is a genius, he has talent that not many ppl has,,, and his stength comes from him,,, he is the reason why he is so strong,,,,

He is the reason why he was able to awake the MS,, because he had the potential to do so. It wasnt a gift. He had the potential and only a very few Uchiha had the potential to do so,,, and Sasuke was skilled enough to have it. He is strong,, thats all there is to say,

Dont even mention Itachi giving him the MS,,,he didnt give him anything but the Amaterasu seal and that was cleary shown in the Databook.

Madara mentionned that some1 being able to awake Susano was something that was extremely rare among the ppl who awoke the MS which is already extremely rare.

Now,,, the control over his MS is quite normal,, he has seen Itachi in action,,, so he has an idea on how to use them. Using Amaterasu is something quite basic,,, look at something and use it. Tsukuyomi is simply a stronger genjutsu,,,, and Sasuke has been using genjutsu for years.

Susano was shown and mentionned to be imperfected,,,, so he hasnt full control over it yet,,, so u cant complain about him having it gifted to him so easily.. the Sharingan is simply like that,,, its not a regular jutsu,,, Uchihas already some sort of control over it,,, the thing is we dont understand how they can control such abilities with their eyes,,, well get over it,,, they are like that and its not like MS is free,,,,it kills ur sight,, so u cant spam it all u want w/o suffering,,, thats why getting control over its abilities cant be something u spend days on,,, it has a huge price to pay.

The only gift that i would consider being given Sasuke is the curse Seal.

And its simply because it came from the outside and had nothing to do with his own power. Although how he used it was definitly due to his genius which was pointed out a few times in the manga.


THe kyuubi is a gift too,,, it saved Naruto quite a few times and permits him to have nearly an unlimited amount of chakra.


If u ask me ,,,, Naruto controlling Sage mode in about a week and performing it better than what Jiraiya who was praised as an excellent shinobi was able to do in a lifetime is more bullshit than anything so far in the manga. But because we saw Naruto work for it doesnt matter tho.....

U guys sometimes need to start thinking about what u are saying.


If MS was so free everybody would have it just think about that.



The reason why we are seeing Naruto and Sasuke pulling shit out of their ass and make it seem somewhat easy is because we are following the main characters of a serie,,, the characters that will become the strongest,,,,

[kingplaya(minato)]

@rikudou king, what i'm saying is that both nagato and haku could not control their bloodline limit the 1st time they brought it out...haku, the 1st time he used it was when he was being attacked and he brought it out without knowing what the heck he was doing and i'm pretty sure if he was asked 2 do it the following day he wouldn't even create a puddle of water...sasuke on the other hand being a more experienced ninja would have a better grasp of susano but not in the way he was using it(i think our problem is that u think its ok 4 sasuke 2 start using it like a pro whereas i think not) he had the incomplete susano and was already covering it with susano and 2 take it a bit further changed the shape of amaterasu when just barely mastering it...also the question of partially transforming susano when just recently(can't be more than a few hours) activating the full form, 2 me thats a rush(again u might see this as ok but i see it as 2 fast)... About the activation of MS, i'm not sure cuz what i saw was madara telling sasuke that itachi transferred his eyetechs(MS) 2 him(sasuke) but if thats not the case still he's learning/usage of it is way 2 fast...
[hr]
@M3J, i'v already said i made a mistake in the anime/manga thing(i started watching anime b4 the manga) but the hawk summon still stands as a gift till proven otherwise cuz i don't know who the hell would give him(sasuke) a contract with the hawks...juugo?(i don't think so but u never know the way kishi works) but until then it stands as a 'gift'...now, there is know way in this world that sasuke could copy the mechanics of susano from itachi cuz he didn't see how itachi brought out the susano(was busy rejoicing his fake 'victory') and unless sharingan can copy a justu that is already in motion and find out the basics of it, there is no way sasuke got any pointers from itachi's susano...in desperation miracles happen yes i know that, but that has already happened when sasuke brought out 'imcomplete' susano against raikage but he didn't seem desperate against danzo but rather in control which is totally f****d up...and about being better in control with amaterasu, the comment was brought up by the fact that sasuke put/controlled the amaterasu around susano which should never have happened in the 1st place... P.S. People have been saying sasuke's sharingan would surpass itachi's own but that time hasn't come yet cuz its safe 2 say that itachi full power would beat sasuke as at now...

[zenozatch]

Sasuke has not surpassed Itachi. There is no way to judge. Itachi was fighting at barely half his power when he fought Sasuke. Now, look at Sasuke's skills. He cannot summon Susanoo fully. His eyes still bleed from Amatsuresu. I have yet to see Tsukyomi. He does have that Kagetsuchi, God of Fire thing, which is pretty nice.

He is in no way comparable to Itachi. He is not doing half of what Itachi did at HALF.

Now, I voted his power-ups are normal. We know the Sharingan especially the Mangekyou to be emotionally triggered. Sasuke has had a high resolve and high emotions ever since the death of his brother. I am sure he has been pushing his eyes to the limit. The Hawk Summon. We have not seen a snake from Sasuke since Deidara, he had plenty of time to get a new scroll.

Sasuke knows the value of hardwork. He trained with Orochimaru. He probably learned his work ethnics and study ethnics. With his Sharingan he can break down techniques, now couple that with Orochimaru's research and deductive skills. Genius level to be honest. Training is all about understanding, once you understand something you can do it. Sasuke obviously was able to understand the MS due to his battle with Itachi and numerous run ins. When he got his own, it would be quite easy to break it down and understand it. Number one he has seen and analyzed it with his Sharingan. Number two his mind is able to mimic and understand such.

So, nothing Sasuke knows is a free gift. Simply the product of hard work, talent, and kekkei genkai.

[Delbi]

So I've been just got from being bant for like ever, and I figure my first good act should be defending this low life on several different threads. Don't ask, just don't ask.

Anyway...Sasuke is a genius, he's skilled, in fact he may be the most skilled ninjutsu user we have seen in the manga. Forget his Sharigan, his natural ability to use ninjutsu is absurd, his use of Raiton trumps any ninja's single use of one element. Not to mention he's also highly skilled with Katon and Enton.

Anyway, are Sasuke's powers gifts? The dumb answer would be yes, of course they are. But then again so is Naruto's naturally high stamina, Shikamaru's intelligence, Sakura's chakra control, etc.

It's not a matter of whether the gift is free or not. By virtue of his genetics, Sasuke was predetermined to have the Sharigan, and MS.

HOWEVER, it was Sasuke's talent, which is also somewhat of a gift, that allows him to use such gifts to their greatest potential. Not to mention, Sasuke is just about as intelligent as it gets, and his understanding of jutsu is second to none. He's always been able to pick up things fast, and he's always been able to improve upon things in ways others haven't.

Now, Sasuke is a ninjutsu user. All this talk about him using Ameratsu the way he does, and how Itachi couldn't use it that way seems "cheap" to some, but it isn't.

Hasn't anyone noticed that Sasuke's Tsyukiyomi isn't as strong as Itachi's, but his Ameratsu is stronger? Hmmm, maybe it's because Itachi was a GENJUTSU type, and Sasuke is a NINJUTSU type. Common sense would tell us that Sasuke would use his MS ninjutsu better, and Itachi his MS genjutsu. Hence why Sasuke can control Ameratsu so easily.

Also, others have forgotten that Sasuke does have a Sharigan, and since he saw his brother use Ameratsu, he should have a basic knowledge of how the chakra transfer and everything works. Thus, when he used Ameratsu after fighting Killer Bee, he knew how to control it already.

As for Sussano, IMO it's a cross between a body transformation jutus like the CS, and a Summon like Sasuke's snakes. Guess what, Sasuke was a master at using his CS, and a master at using snakes. Not to mention, again, he saw his brother use Sussano before. AND to top it all off, he has natural talent and intelligence to figure out how something like Sussano should work.

If you see things the way I do, Sasuke mastering his MS like he has, should be of no surprise, especially since he was said to have more powerful eyes than his brother.

Sasuke getting Chidori, CS, Orochimaru, and MS may be "gifts" to some, but he had to sacrafice his emtional, physical, and mental well being for most of them, lost his brother, and now his body and eyes. He's paid for the damn things they aren't free by any means. Not to mention he spent two and a half years of his life doing nothing but training, for him to train now would be stupid, he's past that point.

[Rikudou King]

@rikudou king, what i'm saying is that both nagato and haku could not control their bloodline limit the 1st time they brought it out...haku, the 1st time he used it was when he was being attacked and he brought it out without knowing what the heck he was doing and i'm pretty sure if he was asked 2 do it the following day he wouldn't even create a puddle of water...sasuke on the other hand being a more experienced ninja would have a better grasp of susano but not in the way he was using it(i think our problem is that u think its ok 4 sasuke 2 start using it like a pro whereas i think not) he had the incomplete susano and was already covering it with susano and 2 take it a bit further changed the shape of amaterasu when just barely mastering it...also the question of partially transforming susano when just recently(can't be more than a few hours) activating the full form, 2 me thats a rush(again u might see this as ok but i see it as 2 fast)... About the activation of MS, i'm not sure cuz what i saw was madara telling sasuke that itachi transferred his eyetechs(MS) 2 him(sasuke) but if thats not the case still he's learning/usage of it is way 2 fast...
If he had needed to, I sure Haku could have done it again. All he would have needed to do was remember the feeling that he had when he used it the first time. Anyway, Susanoo isn’t a complex thing, So way shouldn’t Sasuke be able to use it once he learned of it. When Sasuke first drew it out, It was nothing more then a ribcage (http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/463/13/). Later on, He was able to forcibly draw out a more muscular skeleton (http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/464/16/). This is still the one (http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/476/19-20/) he using (http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/477/05/) against Danzo. Compared to Itachi’s fully armor Susanoo, Sasuke’s is still incomplete. So what the big deal with him using it. As for wrapping Amaterasu around it, Well that is more about his control of Amaterasu then his control of Susanoo. Seeing as Sasuke has been stated to be better then Itachi at controlling Amaterasu and that Itachi never had a reason to try such a thing, I don’t see what the problem is with Sasuke adding another defense to his Susanoo. What Madara mention was the fact that Itachi implanted that one shot Amaterasu in Sasuke in the hope of getting Madara.

[MegaX]

So it seems at that time he was trying to go full but could not. But in this instance, I believe he did it on purpose just to grab Danzou, which to me suggests a level of mastery. Thanks anyway for pointing that out.

It did seem rather effortless, didn't it? I think Sasuke is fairly proficient with it; I'd be willing to bet he can manifest any part of it with ease. Summoning the whole thing though is probably to exhausting for him to be able to do at this point, though.

[M3J]

@M3J, i'v already said i made a mistake in the anime/manga thing(i started watching anime b4 the manga) but the hawk summon still stands as a gift till proven otherwise cuz i don't know who the hell would give him(sasuke) a contract with the hawks...juugo?(i don't think so but u never know the way kishi works) but until then it stands as a 'gift'...now, there is know way in this world that sasuke could copy the mechanics of susano from itachi cuz he didn't see how itachi brought out the susano(was busy rejoicing his fake 'victory') and unless sharingan can copy a justu that is already in motion and find out the basics of it, there is no way sasuke got any pointers from itachi's susano...in desperation miracles happen yes i know that, but that has already happened when sasuke brought out 'imcomplete' susano against raikage but he didn't seem desperate against danzo but rather in control which is totally f****d up...and about being better in control with amaterasu, the comment was brought up by the fact that sasuke put/controlled the amaterasu around susano which should never have happened in the 1st place... P.S. People have been saying sasuke's sharingan would surpass itachi's own but that time hasn't come yet cuz its safe 2 say that itachi full power would beat sasuke as at now...
Who says Sasuke needs to get hawk summon from someone? And while he may not have seen how Itachi brought out Susano'o, Sasuke might have guessed at how to do it. Remember, he's a genius, he can learn many jutsu quicker than most ninjas. So by bringing out "incomplete" Susano'o against Danzo, he probably learned how to summon Susano'o after one usage. Doesn't look that fucked up in my opinion.
Remember when Sasuke made Amaterasu disappear in the fight with Killerbee? He probably learned he could control Amaterasu and used the fight against Raikage to test it out. Why should Amaterasu being around Susano'o never have happened?
Itahci full power might beat Sasuke, but it's different from saying Itachi's Sharingan would beat Sasuke's.

[Gingitsune]

the hawk summon still stands as a gift till proven otherwise cuz i don't know who the hell would give him(sasuke) a contract with the hawks...juugo?

No one gave Jiraiya a contract with the frog, he made it directly with the frogs by himself. Even for Naruto, Jiraiya summoned a frog with the scroll so Naruto could make the contract (somehow many people think Jiraiya's scroll is the frog scroll, but that's not the case x (http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/92/17/) x (http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/92/18/) x (http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/92/19/)). Back to Sasuke, he could have ask Orochimaru how he got to contract the snakes, then apply the same methode to get the hawks to contract him. Even if he and Suigetsu were still healing from Killer Bee's fight, it doesn't mean they had no time to spare on this harmless operation.

[Delbi]

Anyone ever think the Hawk summons are simply something passed down in the Uchiha Clan?

It could be possible he took a summoning contract from the Uchiha hide-out and just never had to use it until recently since he can no longer fly.

[jdw]

Anyone ever think the Hawk summons are simply something passed down in the Uchiha Clan?

It could be possible he took a summoning contract from the Uchiha hide-out and just never had to use it until recently since he can no longer fly.

Anything can be pulled out of Kishi's ass and be explained that way. It is boring. Sasuke could create his own version of Pain with no explanation and we can all just say the Uchiha passed it down -_-;

[Rikudou King]

Anyone ever think the Hawk summons are simply something passed down in the Uchiha Clan?

It could be possible he took a summoning contract from the Uchiha hide-out and just never had to use it until recently since he can no longer fly. Doubt it, Or else Madara probably would have mention something of the sort when he saw it.

[kingplaya(minato)]

@rikudou king and M3J, u guys make pretty good arguments bout sasuke's use of the MS but there are a few things i want 2 point out... Pls don't say susano isn't a complex thing cuz its the hardest of the MS techs and itachi probably knew of susano's weaknesses and had 2 cover it up with those supernatural sword and mirror but doesn't take away the fact that he(sasuke) has already brought out the full form and partially transformed it in no more than 2 hours, about wrapping amaterasu around susano...i'l give him the benefit of doubt there(doesn't mean i don't still hold reservations but...) sasuke needs a contract with the hawks and since he already knows bout the basics of summoning it shouldn't be that hard but we're missing 1 important piece of the puzzle, the CONTRACT. Cuz he sure as hell wouldn't go around summoning dogs and cats without the contract so until we see 1...its a gift...my 2 problems now are with the hawk and partially summoning susano(i've given him the benefit of doubt about the amaterasu thing) People just say he's a genius and can just learn justus very quickly so in order 4 me to give benefit of the doubt in this aspect, Kishi should better allow naruto start spamming fuuton justus at a crazy level! Heck, getting his father's justus would be much better(telepoting) since he's his son so it shouldn't be much of a problem...i've changed my ideals in some places but this is as far as i can go. And about sasuke's sharingan beating itachi's, didn't u see what he did against deidera and how he's been toying with naruto with his normal sharingan...there is no way sasuke's sharingan can top that 4 NOW...

[Exodi]

If Sasuke's hawk summoning is such a problem, then what about Kakashi's dogs?
We never saw a contract formed between them. That's not fair at all!

And what about Temari's weasel thing with the sickle? Where's their contract?
And what about Tsunade's slug?
Orochimaru's snakes?
Sandaime's monkey?

....Yeah.

[jdw]

If Sasuke's hawk summoning is such a problem, then what about Kakashi's dogs?
We never saw a contract formed between them. That's not fair at all!

And what about Temari's weasel thing with the sickle? Where's their contract?
And what about Tsunade's slug?
Orochimaru's snakes?
Sandaime's monkey?

....Yeah.

I don't think these are worthwhile comparisons.


Tsunade: First encountered as an adult shinobi, with ninjutsu already learned, who obtained title of Sannin during a war. Slug appeared soon upon her arrival in the manga. Shown some younger moments but not enough to complain when shown using a jutsu.
Orochimaru: First encountered as an adult shinobi, with ninjutsu already learned, who obtained title of Sannin during a war. Snakes appeared soon upon his arrival in the manga. Shown some younger moments but not enough to complain when shown using a jutsu. .
Sandaime: First encountered as elderly man Hokage with many jutsu already under belt. Showed summon monkey king Enma in first (only) real-time manga fight. Showed a childhood moment but not enough to complain when shown using a jutsu.
Temari: Not a main character. Shinobi of another village. Not shown many of her jutsu or development at all. She is basically a D-list person.
Kakashi: First encountered as an adult shinobi with many jutsu already learned. Survived a war. Hailed as the man with sharingan and 1000 jutsu, his repertoire, though not seen for the most part, is expected as part of the manga.

Your list is basically made up of people who developed their jutsu before the manga even began, and a D-lister who could never be shown again and no one would notice. Sasuke is a main character. Some would argue the main character. There is an appreciable difference from all of the above considering we are seeing hiw "grow" from the bottom up.

[Kusachu]

I still just don't get how people can think they are hand outs if they look at the character objectively. I'll never get it and no ammount of argumantation has made me feel differently. If you ask me, about the hawk, it makes total sense if sasuke could do that the whole time, especially the way he talked to Orochimaru when they fought. And yeah, even back then I thought it was cheesy, but um...not a hand out or an unworthy hax or anything.

[Mircus]

@rikudou king and M3J, u guys make pretty good arguments bout sasuke's use of the MS but there are a few things i want 2 point out... Pls don't say susano isn't a complex thing cuz its the hardest of the MS techs and itachi probably knew of susano's weaknesses and had 2 cover it up with those supernatural sword and mirror but doesn't take away the fact that he(sasuke) has already brought out the full form and partially transformed it in no more than 2 hours, about wrapping amaterasu around susano...i'l give him the benefit of doubt there(doesn't mean i don't still hold reservations but...) sasuke needs a contract with the hawks and since he already knows bout the basics of summoning it shouldn't be that hard but we're missing 1 important piece of the puzzle, the CONTRACT. Cuz he sure as hell wouldn't go around summoning dogs and cats without the contract so until we see 1...its a gift...my 2 problems now are with the hawk and partially summoning susano(i've given him the benefit of doubt about the amaterasu thing) People just say he's a genius and can just learn justus very quickly so in order 4 me to give benefit of the doubt in this aspect, Kishi should better allow naruto start spamming fuuton justus at a crazy level! Heck, getting his father's justus would be much better(telepoting) since he's his son so it shouldn't be much of a problem...i've changed my ideals in some places but this is as far as i can go. And about sasuke's sharingan beating itachi's, didn't u see what he did against deidera and how he's been toying with naruto with his normal sharingan...there is no way sasuke's sharingan can top that 4 NOW...

Susano'o is complex. It is a strong jutsu, thus requires a lot of chakara to pull its full form out. Keep in mind I said full form, but it can just require a few chakara to pull out the ribs, arms or head. Susano'o does have its weaknesses. I'm positive all Itachi, Sasuke and even Madara knows what they are as we following the recent chapters. Thus why Itachi had the sword and shield to make his Susano'o much more balanced for a fight. The same went for Sasuke utilizing(shape-manipulation) Amateratsu onto Susano'o for a better defence/offense jutsu. Pulling full Susano'o out would mean the require putting more chakara into it to complete the jutsu (as in pulling out its full form) and that's something that can be done. That said, all Sasuke had to do what put more chakara into that rib cage of Susano'o and the thing pops out in complete form, or to his liking.

About the hawk summon. Its likely Sasuke already has a contract to summon the hawk or else he wouldn't be summoning a hawk in the first place. Sure, Kishi pulled that hawk summon out of thin air, but it was to surprise us, the readers! The hawk can also be interpret as a symbolic meaning, "Sasuke soars like a hawk with keen eyes into battle," or "Sasuke rides the hawk, never had he falter from his ambitions as he still has sight of his prey!". The hawk will be explained in due time, probably a few chapters from now. Heck even the anime team is working on fillers to fill up plot holes in the manga so quit complaining and wait to see it out. Kishi will do his explaining in the manga soon enough, if not he has his Databook to convince us!

All in all, Sasuke's power-ups through the the story are not "free" gifts. There has always been a price for his power-ups, on or off-screen, manga or anime. Not everything has to be shown, the decision is totally up to Kishi himself. We, the readers, will have to accept Kishi's '09 ending of the year present to us whether we like it or not.

[M3J]

@rikudou king and M3J, u guys make pretty good arguments bout sasuke's use of the MS but there are a few things i want 2 point out... Pls don't say susano isn't a complex thing cuz its the hardest of the MS techs and itachi probably knew of susano's weaknesses and had 2 cover it up with those supernatural sword and mirror but doesn't take away the fact that he(sasuke) has already brought out the full form and partially transformed it in no more than 2 hours, about wrapping amaterasu around susano...i'l give him the benefit of doubt there(doesn't mean i don't still hold reservations but...)
Please don't say Susano'o is complex or the hardest of the two MS techs because we don't know that. We do know it is a painful technique to use even when not fully summoned, but we have no idea if it's complex or hard. Having Amaterasu and Tsukiyomi unlocked or used doesn't make it complex or hard, just a requirement to use.
Does Susano'o have any weakness though? Susano'o has been shown to be good at defense and offense even when partially summoned. And I haven't seen Sasuke bring out the full form of Susano'o. I've seen partially transformed so far. And he can control Amaterasu better than Itachi, we've seen few shinobi comment on that and have seen at least one person say Sasuke's eyes are stronger than Itachi's.
And you're forgetting that Sasuke is a genius. As a genius, he can more easily understand something or find out the mechanics of it. It was easier for him to master element manipulation and chidori because he was intelligent, whereas it might take someone like Tenten even years tom aster it.


sasuke needs a contract with the hawks and since he already knows bout the basics of summoning it shouldn't be that hard but we're missing 1 important piece of the puzzle, the CONTRACT. Cuz he sure as hell wouldn't go around summoning dogs and cats without the contract so until we see 1...its a gift...my 2 problems now are with the hawk and partially summoning susano(i've given him the benefit of doubt about the amaterasu thing)
Maybe Sasuke made the contract offscreen? We haven't seen him summon hawks because he didn't need to, especially when snakes were thought to be more versatile than hawks. For all we know, Sasuke might have had a contract with hawk before the manga began.
So anyone who has contract without us seeing them get it got a gift? Jiraiya, Orochimaru, Kakashi, etcetc? Though as jdw said, there's a difference between them and Sasuke, we still haven't seen everything about Sasuke, or even Naruto, so anything that they pull out can be considered a gift.


People just say he's a genius and can just learn justus very quickly so in order 4 me to give benefit of the doubt in this aspect, Kishi should better allow naruto start spamming fuuton justus at a crazy level! Heck, getting his father's justus would be much better(telepoting) since he's his son so it shouldn't be much of a problem...i've changed my ideals in some places but this is as far as i can go. And about sasuke's sharingan beating itachi's, didn't u see what he did against deidera and how he's been toying with naruto with his normal sharingan...there is no way sasuke's sharingan can top that 4 NOW...

Why Naruto? Naruto hasn't shown to be a genius like Sasuke. Every time we've seen Sasuke and Naruto compete, Sasuke was the one that was more advanced, whether tree climbing, actual combat, or mastering element manipulation. If it weren't for Naruto's clones and stamina, he'd have taken longer to master elemental manipulation and adding fuuton to rasengan. Naruto was shown to get what he got by working hard and not giving up, and was said to learn by body. Sasuke was shown to get what he got by using his intelligence and brains. We've seen how much of a genius Sasuke was in the flashback, and even Naruto's admit why he looked up to Sasuke.
But Sasuke probably isn't a genjutsu type like Itachi is. We've seen Itachi use genjutsu even during the first part, whereas we haven't seen Sasuke use genjutsu until his fight with Orochimaru. Itachi preferred genjutsu as a way to not get physically involved whereas Sasuke preferred to fight? They're two different people, two different personalities. They have different ways of doing things.

[MegaX]

Also keep in mind that Itachi was a man who loved peace. He preferred Genjutsu because it allowed him to avoid having to fight others.

[kingplaya(minato)]

@M3J, If susano is the 3rd cheat and the 1 that requires one 2 have unlocked mangekyou sharingan in both eyes then its definately complex and the fact is that sasuke has brought out the full form of susano(against gaara and the 4 bodyguards of sand and kumo combined), heck it had everything in place, the sword(not itachi's of course) and was freaking huge!...then against danzo he just partially transformed it i.e he just brought out a part 2 grab danzo and was doing so like a god which f*****g annoys me cuz he just didn't have the time 2 know how 2 learn that!... That old saying that he's a genius can't help much of the fact that susano shouldn't be just a toy that he can fully master just the 2 times he's used. The only things remaining are itachi's fancy decorations(which are itachi's only) and sasuke is done. About amaterasu, i'v settled that but about people commenting on his sharingan being stronger than itachi's...that is bullcrap! (until u can prove otherwise) cuz what i'v heard is that he has potential 2 become better...and your argument about the hawk summon is kinda weak, 1. We all know sasuke couldn't have gotten it b4 the manga(i know that's a joke but still...) 2. We all know he needed it against deidera but didn't use it(if he can use it against danzo why not against a long range fighter) so he indeed needed it, so that brings us 2 only the time btw the deidera fight and now, and as i'v explained b4 i don't see the time 4 him 2 go look 4 a contract(until kishi explains)... 1 correction though, sasuke used genjustu on sai the 1st time he saw him and that was the 1st time we saw him in part2...itachi has shown he can fight, and his hand seals are second 2 none we've seen so far and sasuke's sharingan couldn't keep up and which i'm willing 2 beat that itachi's sharingan can keep up with(but lets continue this 'liltle' argument bout their sharingans in another thread i'm hoping u can open cuz i keep getting blocked each time i try...)
[hr]
@MegaX, this itachi peace loving thing is waaaay overated...if some1 cud just open a thread about sasuke and itachi exclusively or if there is 1 refer me 2 it, then i'l argue this further but i don't want 2 divert this thread...

[TeAm#7FoReVer]

http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/49/16/
Orochimaru: I sense power in your eyes that surpasses Itachi.

Cnet128
Chapter 363 (http://mangahelpers.com/t/cnet128/releases/319)
Madara: I was quite impressed... / His skill with the Sharingan was more than clear... // Those eyes will surpass Itachi's... // The time is ripe. / He too is prepared, I think... It shouldn't be too long, after all.

Chapter 400 (http://mangahelpers.com/t/cnet128/releases/634)
Flashback!Itachi: The only reason I played the role of the brother you wanted me to be... // ...was to understand your ability, your capacity, for myself. // You can become a rival against whom I can test my own "capacity". // You hold that possibility within you. //

Chapter 453 (http://mangahelpers.com/t/cnet128/releases/13555)
Tobi: ...Not exactly... I never expected Nagato to put the Rinne Tensei, a technique that was supposed to be for my sake, to a use like that... / To think that he would betray us... // Even if Sasuke were to become more powerful than Nagato, that strength is of no use to us if we cannot control him. // I don't intend to link him to the Gedou Mazou for the time being. / This requires some careful observation.

Chapter 467 (http://mangahelpers.com/t/cnet128/releases/16636)
Gaara: Why is it that you seek to win Sasuke over?
Tobi: A Sharingan that can activate even Susanoo is a rarity... / I wouldn't want to let a nice pair of eyes like that slip through my fingers. // In fact, I wanted to give him the opportunity to train them up further in combat with the Five Kages... / It was I who sent him here. // I would have liked to have him weaken you to the point where I could take you hostage, as well... / ...but it looks like that was too much to expect.

This information justify the reason Sasuke masters so fast MS tecniques and among other ones (the so-called-free-gifts). He is a genius and he has the potencial and capacity to master different jutsus and the probability to being more powerful than Nagato.

Why are they not free gifts?

Firstable a gift is something voluntarily transferred by one person to another without compensation.

CS
Price: The risk to die (when he got bitten by Orochimaru), an uncontrollable pain, the lack of sanity and consumes a lot chakra.

MS techniques
Well according to some posts I have read, Itachi just used TENSHA FUUIN: AMATERASU here (http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/402/11/).

FUUINJUTSU; TENSHA FUUIN: AMATERASU (http://mangahelpers.com/forums/showthread.php?t=45481) (Sealing technique. Transcription Seal: Amaterasu)
User: Uchiha Itachi

Main text

Amaterasu is a Katon-type ninjutsu of the highest rank, exclusively accessible to those who have awakened to Mangekyou Sharingan. The act of sealing that effect into someone else's sharingan is called Tensha Fuuin: Amaterasu. When the image of the specified target is reflected into the pupil the jutsu was sealed in, the seal will unbind, and "the Black Flames that devour fire itself" will swoop down on their prey!!

So that means, if I am right, Sasuke awoke Amaterasu, Tsukuyomi (I am not sure about this one but I added it anyway), Susanoo and Enton by his own. Itachi didnt give them to Sasuke.

The price: to kill his brother and future blindness.

Hawk summoning
Well, I think this is not even a power-up because he has the basic notions of summonings. At the level Sasuke is, it is pointless to show how he got a hawk summon if we clearly know the process. To make a contract with an animal lasts a few seconds. It is not a big deal, it would be a waste of panels and it is irrelevant to the current plot.

I can imagine:
Juugo: Hi Sasuke, I brought you the hawk boss.
Hawk: This guy here told me that you want make a contract with me.
Sasuke: Are you agreed?
Hawk: Yes, of course. That way I can be the mascot team!

Believe me, you do not want to see this. That would be more out of the place than the summoning itself. I know it was kind of random but it was already foreseen Sasuke would summon a hawk. The name, the different appearences of a hawk, Madara saying this (http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/371/02/) and Juugo, the bird lover (he could have helped Sasuke to do the contract.)

I know some or most of you hate Sasuke to have these power-ups but he paid (and he is still) the price to obtain them. To master the MS techniques he has to suffer and bear with pain, mentally and physically.

Conclusion: Nothing was handed to him on a silver tray.

Uff, long post.

[kingplaya(minato)]

I thanked u(team7) not because i believe everything u posted but 4 the nice write up.... Everything in the 'liltle' information u gave us pointed 2 the fact that sasuke has the POTENTIAL 2 become better than itachi and nagato but everything he's done so far has shown that he is(and naruto too) not there yet(as i said i need a thread on this so as not 2 go off-topic but did u see the fear in danzo's eyes when he saw itachi...) this all points 2 do fact he's not there yet.... I would reply in full later on but i want 2 enjoy the 1st day 2010 to the fullest.... And a happy new year 2 all members and visitors alike!

[Mircus]

I thanked u(team7) not because i believe everything u posted but 4 the nice write up.... Everything in the 'liltle' information u gave us pointed 2 the fact that sasuke has the POTENTIAL 2 become better than itachi and nagato but everything he's done so far has shown that he is(and naruto too) not there yet(as i said i need a thread on this so as not 2 go off-topic but did u see the fear in danzo's eyes when he saw itachi...) this all points 2 do fact he's not there yet.... I would reply in full later on but i want 2 enjoy the 1st day 2010 to the fullest.... And a happy new year 2 all members and visitors alike!

We aren't discussing about if Sasuke's there yet or not to the level of Itachi. We also aren't going to discuss Danzou being surprised of seeing a genjutsu Itachi or not unless related to Sasuke's power-ups are free gifts or not.

Team#7Forever pointed out information regarding that Sasuke indeed worked for his power-ups as much as any shinobi should if they want to become powerful. Stronger the jutsu, the more risk there is. As we know a lot of Sasuke's jutsu have risks. Yes, Sasuke does have potential to surpass Itachi's eye, that includes all the MS jutsu. This does not mean he's given things to him though, it frankly means he will become stronger than Itachi in time and use of MS.

---

@kingplaya(minato)
Susano'o being complex or not by people's opinion does not affect that Susano'o isn't a free gift. Sure anyone can say Susano'o is a free gift because it came to light on the day the MS is acheived; however, is it really free if the fact is you have to go through the roughest, toughest, trials just to obtain MS? No. About Sasuke pulling Susano'o's arm out like a God is pretty simple for him. Has he not pulled out parts of Susano'o out before? Yes he has, the rib cage of Susano'o when he fought Raikage. He can pull out a rib cage w/o training, so why can't he pull an arm out w/o training. Its no big deal about Sasuke shape-shifting all his jutsu as he does it all the time to his Chidori. Having Sasuke using only a part of Susano'o is under the same category, it isn't a big deal. Susano'o is a toy as much as it is a tool. Sasuke is great at ninjutsu, and he is creative enough to experiment his tools in battle as well as test his opponents, thus defining him as a genius. This is fact and its true to itself whether people hate hearing it again or not. Don't you think Sasuke plays scenarios in his head before he heads into battle? Geez, I wonder why he knows what he's doing, maybe he does think out what he's going to pull out of his ass before he does it.

Let's hear your hawk talk then kingplaya. What do you find so outrageous about Sasuke pulling a hawk out of thin air? Hello there, if you and some people are so outrageous about Sasuke pulling a summon out of his ass, then I'm the same as much as Nagato/Pain pulling all his summon out of his. If you want an explanation of him pulling a hawk out of thin air then wait for the info until release by Kishi through chapters or databook. If you want screen time for Kishi to explain on how and when Sasuke had time to get a contract then wait for the info. Team#7Forever's guess of how Sasuke got the hawk isn't weak at all, and close enough to mine if not anyone's else as well. Use some imagination and believe that during each off screen time Sasuke has been using his head to think of play-by-play tatics of how to use his jutsu and what to do to make it better. He was in that space-time jutsu of Madara's long enough after the Kage summit, don't you think that's a reasonable amount of time for Sasuke to have that play-by-play thought in his head?

---

Happy New Years to everyone too.

[MegaX]

@MegaX, this itachi peace loving thing is waaaay overated...if some1 cud just open a thread about sasuke and itachi exclusively or if there is 1 refer me 2 it, then i'l argue this further but i don't want 2 divert this thread...

It was stated in canon, but you know what? Go ahead. Have fun with that.

[M3J]

@M3J, If susano is the 3rd cheat and the 1 that requires one 2 have unlocked mangekyou sharingan in both eyes then its definately complex and the fact is that sasuke has brought out the full form of susano(against gaara and the 4 bodyguards of sand and kumo combined), heck it had everything in place, the sword(not itachi's of course) and was freaking huge!...then against danzo he just partially transformed it i.e he just brought out a part 2 grab danzo and was doing so like a god which f*****g annoys me cuz he just didn't have the time 2 know how 2 learn that!... That old saying that he's a genius can't help much of the fact that susano shouldn't be just a toy that he can fully master just the 2 times he's used.
This (http://read.mangashare.com/Naruto/chapter-465/page001.html) shows Susano'o wasn't full form, since it's missing a pair of legs. Susano'o requiring two unlocked Mangekyou doesn't make it complex, only if there's something else required, like Uchiha blood or complex handseals or whatever. The sword was already probably part of Susano'o, but Itachi had his Susano'o's sword replaced with the Sword of Totsuga. And he also grabbed Karin after he escaped from Raikage, so it's not the first time he grabbed someone. He did have the time to learn though, during his fight with Raikage.
He didn't necessarily fully master it. And he probably learned enough first time on how to use it, or how to use the basics of it. Learning to use Susano'o can be like learning a math equation. A genius can get it right or nearly right the first time, and after learning a bit more, like how to do this or that, the correct steps, he can master the equation.



About amaterasu, i'v settled that but about people commenting on his sharingan being stronger than itachi's...that is bullcrap! (until u can prove otherwise) cuz what i'v heard is that he has potential 2 become better...
He did escape from Itachi's Tsukiyomi, no? And he probably can do more with his MS than Itachi due to his powerful eyes. We dunno what exactly is meant by better Sharingan.


and your argument about the hawk summon is kinda weak, 1. We all know sasuke couldn't have gotten it b4 the manga(i know that's a joke but still...) 2. We all know he needed it against deidera but didn't use it(if he can use it against danzo why not against a long range fighter) so he indeed needed it, so that brings us 2 only the time btw the deidera fight and now, and as i'v explained b4 i don't see the time 4 him 2 go look 4 a contract(until kishi explains)... 1 correction though, sasuke used genjustu on sai the 1st time he saw him and that was the 1st time we saw him in part2...itachi has shown he can fight, and his hand seals are second 2 none we've seen so far and sasuke's sharingan couldn't keep up and which i'm willing 2 beat that itachi's sharingan can keep up with(but lets continue this 'liltle' argument bout their sharingans in another thread i'm hoping u can open cuz i keep getting blocked each time i try...)
How could he not have? Maybe it's possible all Uchihas make contract with animals of their choice or certain animals at a certain age. And he didn't need the hawk against Deidara because Sasuke could fly (http://read.mangashare.com/Naruto/chapter-360/page013.html) thanks to Cursed Seal. And Itachi has mostly used genjutsu, against Naruto, Kakashi the first time, Jiraiya (tho the girl was genjutsu'd), and even Sasuke. We've seen him fight a bit against Kakashi. Sasuke was apparently capapble of genjutsu but he still stuck with fighting heads on.
But Itachi's handseals were fast, Kakashi couldn't keep up either. I doubt Itachi would be able to either.

And PM me the thread you're talking about. O_o

[Kusachu]

Maybe it's just my selective reading, but I don't see anyone in here aguing strongly that Sasuke got his power for free, so um, why are the "frees" outnumbering the "normals"? Does it have to do with the factthat most people just hate Sasuke? I'll never understand. :eyeroll

[kingplaya(minato)]

Kusachu, that's my very thought and thanks 4 pointing it out... And yeah, loads of people hate sasuke... @every1 in here supporting sasuke(didn't say fanboys), since it seems like i'm getting cornered and out-argued then we can all agree that sasuke's power-ups are not so free afterall and would be pointless arguing any further, but just keep in mind that the hawk issue hasn't really been settled but we'll wait 4 kishi on that one... And also the other things i've been mentioning(amaterasu, MS, partial susano) you've proven 2 be not so free but i still hold some reservations(call it the part that still hates sasuke mixed with some facts of my own). But all in all, nice arguments and hope 2 have u on my side some other time...P€@C£...(I still don't know where the free gifts guys are, answers any1???)

[Gats]

This (http://read.mangashare.com/Naruto/chapter-465/page001.html) shows Susano'o wasn't full form, since it's missing a pair of legs.

What are you talking about ? Itachi Susano'o full form never showed a pair of legs in the manga.
http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/392/04-05/
http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/392/08-09/
http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/393/03/

[M3J]

Well, I failed. -_-
Thank you for pointing that out btw. Itachi's Susano'o looked like it was covered in armor and etc, whereas Sasuke's looked like it was nude. Maybe fully complete Susano'o looks like Itachi's, at least covered?

[Kusachu]

Well, I failed. -_-
Thank you for pointing that out btw. Itachi's Susano'o looked like it was covered in armor and etc, whereas Sasuke's looked like it was nude. Maybe fully complete Susano'o looks like Itachi's, at least covered?

Or maybe Sasuke's likes to be naked? I mean, Sasuke seems to like to have his upper half uncovered, so maybe his jutsu does too!! :XD :eyeroll

But that still has nothing to do with the discussion at hand though.

Come on people! If you think Sasuke's abilities are free gifts then please, argue your points! Otherwise your opinion has no value and the thread starters poll is useless. :nod

[mr.danly]

Please don't say Susano'o is complex or the hardest of the two MS techs because we don't know that. We do know it is a painful technique to use even when not fully summoned, but we have no idea if it's complex or hard. Having Amaterasu and Tsukiyomi unlocked or used doesn't make it complex or hard, just a requirement to use.
Does Susano'o have any weakness though? Susano'o has been shown to be good at defense and offense even when partially summoned. And I haven't seen Sasuke bring out the full form of Susano'o. I've seen partially transformed so far. And he can control Amaterasu better than Itachi, we've seen few shinobi comment on that and have seen at least one person say Sasuke's eyes are stronger than Itachi's.
And you're forgetting that Sasuke is a genius. As a genius, he can more easily understand something or find out the mechanics of it. It was easier for him to master element manipulation and chidori because he was intelligent, whereas it might take someone like Tenten even years tom aster it.


Maybe Sasuke made the contract offscreen? We haven't seen him summon hawks because he didn't need to, especially when snakes were thought to be more versatile than hawks. For all we know, Sasuke might have had a contract with hawk before the manga began.
So anyone who has contract without us seeing them get it got a gift? Jiraiya, Orochimaru, Kakashi, etcetc? Though as jdw said, there's a difference between them and Sasuke, we still haven't seen everything about Sasuke, or even Naruto, so anything that they pull out can be considered a gift.



Why Naruto? Naruto hasn't shown to be a genius like Sasuke. Every time we've seen Sasuke and Naruto compete, Sasuke was the one that was more advanced, whether tree climbing, actual combat, or mastering element manipulation. If it weren't for Naruto's clones and stamina, he'd have taken longer to master elemental manipulation and adding fuuton to rasengan. Naruto was shown to get what he got by working hard and not giving up, and was said to learn by body. Sasuke was shown to get what he got by using his intelligence and brains. We've seen how much of a genius Sasuke was in the flashback, and even Naruto's admit why he looked up to Sasuke.
But Sasuke probably isn't a genjutsu type like Itachi is. We've seen Itachi use genjutsu even during the first part, whereas we haven't seen Sasuke use genjutsu until his fight with Orochimaru. Itachi preferred genjutsu as a way to not get physically involved whereas Sasuke preferred to fight? They're two different people, two different personalities. They have different ways of doing things.

http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/464/16/

It seems to be pretty fully brought out. Unless you mean its legs, as well, but I don't think Susanoo even has legs. Even in Itachi's fight, there were no legs of Susanoo, http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/393/01/ and in every instance we've seen so far, the Sharingan user has been inside of Susanoo's ribcage/abdomen, so it seems as though Susanoo only has an upper body (although that's just random speculation on my part).

As for your question of whether or not Susanoo has weaknesses, it's shown to be somewhat lacking in the "defense" portion. http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/466/07/ here, Mizukage's acid mist melts Susanoo's ribcage, as Sasuke so astutely notes, and it seems that sufficient brute force can send Sasuke, along with Susanoo, flying. http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/466/04/ On the next page, Sasuke notes probably the biggest weakness of Susanoo; http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/466/05/, the fact that he can't use it for a long period of time. Susanoo may be an extremely powerful tool, but it has its flaws.

Also, Susanoos weakness is further evidenced by the fact that Itachi's version used Yata's mirror http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/393/09/. If Susanoo's defense were absolute, what would be the point of using another supreme defensive item?

The final point that I disagree with is whether or not Sasuke is a genjutsu type. He clearly has an affinity for genjutsu, as he has used it repeatedly in part 2. You said that we haven't seen Sasuke use genjutsu until his fight with Orochimaru, whereas Itachi has been shown using genjutsu all throughout the first part, but you haven't taken into account their ages. Itachi in part 1 was 17 or 18 years old, whereas Sasuke in part 2 is still only 15 or 16. So Sasuke is actually, age-wise, using Genjutsu earlier than we've seen Itachi use it. But overall I do agree with your points, especially the differences between Sasuke and Itachi and Sasuke and Naruto.
[hr]

Well, I failed. -_-
Thank you for pointing that out btw. Itachi's Susano'o looked like it was covered in armor and etc, whereas Sasuke's looked like it was nude. Maybe fully complete Susano'o looks like Itachi's, at least covered?

oops, I guess I responded too late. Anyway, I think it's because of two things: Itachi's susanoo is using the sword of totsuka and yata's mirror, which are the sword and shield you see in one of the links I posted, and because Itachi's susanoo is more complete. idk about the clothes, but Itachi's susanoo appeared to have skin, whereas Sasuke's still has only bone and muscle.

[M3J]

But the links you provided to Susano'o's weakness showed incomplete Susano'o. Would the defense be just as strong? And Yata's Mirror increases the defense and/or adds another form of defense, probably to complement Susano'o's defense. It's like how knights use shield despite wearing armor.
Itachi technically used genjutsu earlier than Sasuke. Remember when he used I think Tsukiyomi on Sasuke when Itachi was accused of killing Shisui? Then he did it again after the massacre. Itachi must have been around 12. But Sasuke did use genjutsu without Mangekyou Sharingan, unlike Itachi.

Sword of Totsuga and Yata's Mirror don't look like they cover Susano'o though, do they? So complete Susano'o might have full body armor, which Sasuke's doesn't have. So if Sasuke got free gifts, he'd have been able to use Susano'o early on, especially against Killerbee. Instead, we see him slowly learning his MS jutsu. First MS genjutsu, then Amaterasu, then ability to control Amaterasu, then incomplete Susano'o. Free gift would involve mastery of all those ability.

[kingplaya(minato)]

About the susano, sasuke has already brought the full form as most have noted but the sword of tos-whatever(can't remember) and the yata mirror seem 2 be itachi's personel decorations 2 make his susano stronger cuz oro was said 2 have been searching 4 the sword and i doubt he would have if it belonged 2 all susano users, but the thing of note is that itachi went through the pains of upgrading something that has been praised 2 have perfect offence and defence so that must mean it must have some weaknesses as mr danly has pointed out, so that must mean there's still a chance sasuke's ass would get whooped many more times with his current susano

[Bucks]

Well, since someone asked. I think the Sharingan is one giant hax. Before you ask, Sage Mode and Kyuubi are also haxxes. Kage Bunshin effect was a retcon when Kishi realized he mishandled his main character.

Sharingan, Kyuubi and Sage mode, they can all be entertaining in the right hands, but this mangaka isn't it. Yes, Sharingan was entertaining part 1, before MS bullshit started. Sage Mode was also entertaining during the Jiraiya/Naruto fights. Kyuubi was entertaining most of part one, now? Not so much.

Does Sasuke receive gift power ups? Yeah, the first being the Sharingan the last being the MS.


Edit: Chapter 478 proofs my point.

[Jammin]

I would have said no before he pulled a giant bird out his.....:eyeroll

The Mk Sharingan stuff tends to come with a price. So, as bloodline limits go, his really isn't unreasonably powerful. As long as there is a price to be paid and he actually pays it, i think that stuff seems fairly legit.

The bird though...... that was a free gift, no doubt about it. How exactly did he find a bird summoning contract? Did he even sign a contract and, if so, when did he have the time?:facepalm

[tothx]

Sasuke gets powerups thru self discovery and walking down the dark path. The more he surrounds himself in hatred and self pity the stronger the will to use whatever means available becomes. You could say that for each power up Sasuke sacrefices a part of his humanity and his soul in exchange for the newfound power. Each time beeing more terrible and sinister than the previous

Naruto on the other hand just works hard

[kingplaya(minato)]

And he still gets his ass whooped each time... And sound 4 nins said that sasuke would have 2 sacrifice his sanity and stuffs 4 CS but surprise surprise, he was still normal after 3 years of using the CS... Sacrifising his humanity doesn't mean sh*t as kishi would just make him perfect lovable sasuke again.

[Prince Sasuke]

And he still gets his ass whooped each time... And sound 4 nins said that sasuke would have 2 sacrifice his sanity and stuffs 4 CS but surprise surprise, he was still normal after 3 years of using the CS... Sacrifising his humanity doesn't mean sh*t as kishi would just make him perfect lovable sasuke again.

Only time Sasuke got his A$$ whooped was aginst killer bee, all other battles Sasuke has held his own quite nicely. Danzou hasn't did anything to assume that Sasuke is losing this batte.

[kingplaya(minato)]

Only time Sasuke got his A$$ whooped was aginst killer bee, all other battles Sasuke has held his own quite nicely. Danzou hasn't did anything to assume that Sasuke is losing this batte.

Raikage was dishing out blows 2 him and most of the time he was on the defensive, itachi whooped his ass, mizukage nailed him(granted, he was weak and all but he was still planning to fight danzo.... Come 2 think of it, she actually saved his life cuz danzo would have murdered him in that state) and danzo has... Well, no comment on that yet...

[Prince Sasuke]

Raikage was dishing out blows 2 him and most of the time he was on the defensive, itachi whooped his ass, mizukage nailed him(granted, he was weak and all but he was still planning to fight danzo.... Come 2 think of it, she actually saved his life cuz danzo would have murdered him in that state) and danzo has... Well, no comment on that yet...

When is "dishing out blows" is ever the deciding factor in a battle? By your logic Neji beat Naruto didn't he? Raikage landed to hits,while he lost a hand. Itachi never touch Sasuke outside of a Genjutsu saved the touch on his head at the end. Mizukage had the upper hand, but thats what happen when your battling five or six other Kages/jounnin ninjas. Danzou hasn't did anything but survive.

[kingplaya(minato)]

When is "dishing out blows" is ever the deciding factor in a battle? By your logic Neji beat Naruto didn't he? Raikage landed to hits,while he lost a hand. Itachi never touch Sasuke outside of a Genjutsu saved the touch on his head at the end. Mizukage had the upper hand, but thats what happen when your battling five or six other Kages/jounnin ninjas. Danzou hasn't did anything but survive.

Neji would have beaten naruto but naruto's willpower came through but it sasuke's case, he was dead meat... What i mean by itachi dealing with sasuke is that he was just toying with him to bring out oro and if he wanted 2, would have killed sasuke... When did people get this idea that sasuke was fighting 6 or 7 people?... He fought only the raikage, escaped from gaara and co. Met the mizukage alone... How does that translate to fighting with 6 or 7 people as there were just few interuptions with sasuke just facing two people... And danzo and sasuke are kinda on par, about all the fuuton justus and summoning that danzo has been doing?... Please don't just make it sound like he hasn't done anything 2 sasuke... Lets not get too offtopic cuz why i brought out this side distraction is that, kishi should stop over powering sasuke when he hasn't won a single fight since deidera...

[Prince Sasuke]

When did people get this idea that sasuke was fighting 6 or 7 people?... He fought only the raikage, escaped from gaara and co. Met the mizukage alone... How does that translate to fighting with 6 or 7 people as there were just few interuptions with sasuke just facing two people...He was attack by 1. Dauri2.Raikage 3. C 4.Gaara 5.Temari 6. Kankouro 7.Mufine 8. Mizukage 9. Tsuhikage
And danzo and sasuke are kinda on par, about all the fuuton justus and summoning that danzo has been doing?... Please don't just make it sound like he hasn't done anything 2 sasuke... Sasuke has killed Danzou like six times, he hasn't done much but survive.
Lets not get too offtopic cuz why i brought out this side distraction is that, kishi should stop over powering sasuke when he hasn't won a single fight since deidera...He hasn't lost a battle either.

[kingplaya(minato)]

He was attack by 1. Dauri2.Raikage 3. C 4.Gaara 5.Temari 6. Kankouro 7.Mufine 8. Mizukage 9. Tsuhikage Sasuke has killed Danzou like six times, he hasn't done much but survive. He hasn't lost a battle either.

He fought only with raikage and mizukage but the rest just had 1 shot at him... Thats not fighting. Danzo has used cool fuuton techs, put a curse seal on him, summoned an extraordinary beast and gotten past susano... How does that translate to just surviving???... Sasuke was allowed 2 win against itachi, killed 2 times against killer b, beaten 2 a pulp at the kage meeting and just recently started 2 impress... In most, he has not been convincing and his power-ups through dubious means should stop.

[khar2]

ok i have a few coments of my own:

for start -> itachi vs sasuke
your praised itachi was first child of uchiha clan, he was destined in his clans eyes for grateness, to be next hokage, so since he was born he was recieving training so hence itachis strength:D
on the other hand sasuke was just itachis younger brother (<- no big hopes here, nor special training)

and we see itachi using MS genjutsu(tsuki) to full extent at most few days after (<-edit:before and after mixup:D) he got MS for the first time..........

-> MS from ass
well didnt he by killing his brother(or his suicide, pick your choice) complete that prerequisition "kill best
friend", so fair square:D

->Susano from ass
Remind me didnt sauske after conversation with Madara in forest before kage sumit said he has something he wants to test out, so in a words "i have susano"(he saw it, he knew how it works, he thout he had it, and by logic that was few days before sumit again, couse i refuse to belive danzo and company travelled just for few hours),
but (here is a big BUT) in battle (raikage) he didnt succeed get a full form but just ribcage, as the battle progress he even burrned cage couse he couldnt get susano to work properly and after meeting with gara he pushed it a little more and WOW, almost

And then in a same day against danzo he did same thing just he didnt summon him whole just hand and ribcage, nothing full just partial and only after being almost killed he succeeded summoning whole with shield and all

so from point from "i know in theory" to "i perfected it in practice", i dont see nothing strange here

->itachi crow genjutsu
well he saw it multiple times with sharingan and its just another illusion i dont see why he cant make same illusion, even if not strong as itachis his illusion can hold same theme, in the end illusions look like is choice of castres, what senses will affect (<- we saw him playing
illusion game with itachi, so he is if not master then expert in genjutsu)

->hawk in battle
well that was little streched i was superised a little, but it can be explained maybe during theese day he really got contract from madara, jugoo or even itachi after death, i dont know we will see it or
(OR again, man i hate that word) it doesnt have to be hawk at all
it can be bushin, hendged into hawk so he can fly, i dont know, i mean if naruto can turn, frog into fox or his bushins into rock and shurikens (<--academy dropout knew this) so can sasuke turn his bushin into a hawk when needed:D

i have bigger problem with naruto learning path, i think its more illogical, for a guy who has problem with basic chakra control (<- 4 hands for rasendan while rest of the folks do it with one hand) to master in such a small time 2 techniques that require MOST of same thing he lacks CHAKRA CONTROL (<-FRS and sage mode)
in that time periods:D thats mistake

i dont think its anything free or random, sasuke is developing as expected, maybe even faster then i predicted:D
so sorry if i offended anyone with my style of writting (<- i like to think its dramatic and sarcastic), sorry for offtopic and sorry for long post:D


Peace and love people:D

[Rikudou King]

Danzo has used cool fuuton techs, put a curse seal on him, summoned an extraordinary beast and gotten past susano... How does that translate to just surviving???... Sasuke was allowed 2 win against itachi, killed 2 times against killer b, beaten 2 a pulp at the kage meeting and just recently started 2 impress... In most, he has not been convincing and his power-ups through dubious means should stop. The fact that Danzo has basically died several times is the reason he's "just surviving".

How have he gained them through dubious means? Both CS and MS were showcased long before Sasuke gained them and we were informed of their method of requirement. The only thing that has come out of no where is his hawk summon.

[maaghms]

Lol, are we seriously debating whether they are free gifts? Itachi literally transferred his powers to Sasuke wholesale! If you don’t call that “free gifts”, I don’t know what to say. Can it get any cheaper?

The above situation is equivalent to Nagato giving Naruto all his Rinnegan powers before Nagato’s death. If that has happened, I would also call that “free gift”.

[ameya730]

Lol, are we seriously debating whether they are free gifts? Itachi literally transferred his powers to Sasuke wholesale! If you don’t call that “free gifts”, I don’t know what to say. Can it get any cheaper?

The above situation is equivalent to Nagato giving Naruto all his Rinnegan powers before Nagato’s death. If that has happened, I would also call that “free gift”.

didnt itachi transfer only the one time use ametarasu to sasuke. the rest of the powers sasuke has gained because his MS was unlocked ??

[maaghms]

didnt itachi transfer only the one time use ametarasu to sasuke. the rest of the powers sasuke has gained because his MS was unlocked ??

But isn't the act of "unlocking the MS powers" one of what Itachi "gave" to Sasuke? Itachi was aiming to unlock Sasuke's MS, wasn't he? Thus, Itachi unlocked Sasuke's MS and gave him the access to Ameterasu and "the rest". Those would pretty much be "free gifts", IMO. The significance or the worth for these free gifts are up for debate. But, that doesn't change the fact that they are essentially free gifts.

[Rikudou King]

But isn't the act of "unlocking the MS powers" one of what Itachi "gave" to Sasuke? Itachi was aiming to unlock Sasuke's MS, wasn't he? Thus, Itachi unlocked Sasuke's MS and gave him the access to Ameterasu and "the rest". Those would pretty much be "free gifts", IMO. The significance or the worth for these free gifts are up for debate. But, that doesn't change the fact that they are essentially free gifts. Did you miss the whole Sasuke vs Itachi battle? Sasuke had in no way an easy time. Itachi pushed Sasuke to the edge of his power and Sasuke tried his hardest and used his best techniques. Then Sasuke had the truth behind the whole Uchiha massacre revealed to him. It wasn't as if Itachi just stood there and let Sasuke kill him. Itachi wouldn't have let Sasuke win unless he believed he was strong enough to handle what came next.

[ameya730]

But isn't the act of "unlocking the MS powers" one of what Itachi "gave" to Sasuke? Itachi was aiming to unlock Sasuke's MS, wasn't he? Thus, Itachi unlocked Sasuke's MS and gave him the access to Ameterasu and "the rest". Those would pretty much be "free gifts", IMO. The significance or the worth for these free gifts are up for debate. But, that doesn't change the fact that they are essentially free gifts.

fair enough i guess until kishi clears up how exactly does one obtain MS i will admit if itachi really did unlock sasuke's MS then it is probably a free gift although he sure as hell made sasuke work for it :p

[maaghms]

Did you miss the whole Sasuke vs Itachi battle? Sasuke had in no way an easy time. Itachi pushed Sasuke to the edge of his power and Sasuke tried his hardest and used his best techniques. Then Sasuke had the truth behind the whole Uchiha massacre revealed to him. It wasn't as if Itachi just stood there and let Sasuke kill him. Itachi wouldn't have let Sasuke win unless he believed he was strong enough to handle what came next.


The goal of that fight (Itachi Vs Sasuke) for Sasuke was “to kill Itachi”. He did pay the price (in terms of injuries and hardwork) and killed Itachi. That’s it. Any other thing that Sasuke got from Itachi out of Itachi's own generosity is “free” regardless of whatever spin you want to put to defend Sasuke.

[M3J]

Lol, are we seriously debating whether they are free gifts? Itachi literally transferred his powers to Sasuke wholesale! If you don’t call that “free gifts”, I don’t know what to say. Can it get any cheaper?

The above situation is equivalent to Nagato giving Naruto all his Rinnegan powers before Nagato’s death. If that has happened, I would also call that “free gift”.

He transferred one power, from what it looks like, to Sasuke. When we saw Sasuke use Amaterasu for the first time, it was Itachi's MS tomoe we saw, not Sasuke's. After that, every time Sasuke used Amaterasu, it was his MS tomoe we saw, not Itachi's. It's not really free gift, especially when it's designed to activate upon seeing Sharingan, at least onetime activation. Sasuke wouldn't have been able to use Itachi's gift at will, so I really disagree with his MS and MS jutsu being free gift.

It's not equivalent. Naruto never had Rinnegan and thus couldn't use Nagato's Rinnegan powers without being taught or having Rinnegan. Sasuke has the eyes to use Amaterasu and Tsukiyomi and he's seen how Itachi's used Amaterasu and Tsukiyomi and even auto-used Amaterasu.

[maaghms]

He transferred one power, from what it looks like, to Sasuke. When we saw Sasuke use Amaterasu for the first time, it was Itachi's MS tomoe we saw, not Sasuke's. After that, every time Sasuke used Amaterasu, it was his MS tomoe we saw, not Itachi's.


Itachi “transferred” some powers/abilities, NOT eyes themselves. Therefore, I’m not really sure what you’re attempting to prove by giving examples of tomoe. I think tomoe depends on the person. Even if Itachi did actually transfer the power, it does not automatically mean that Sasuke should possess Itachi’s eyes and tomoes. A possible reason for why Sasuke had Itachi’s tomoe for the first Amaterasu activation might be because it was a forced Amaterasu.


It's not really free gift, especially when it's designed to activate upon seeing Sharingan, at least onetime activation. Sasuke wouldn't have been able to use Itachi's gift at will, so I really disagree with his MS and MS jutsu being free gift. You are assuming (without sufficient evidence) that the first Ameraterasu was Itachi’s and the subsequent ones have been Sasuke’s. I have already explained why this might not be the case above.


It's not equivalent. Naruto never had Rinnegan and thus couldn't use Nagato's Rinnegan powers without being taught or having Rinnegan. Sasuke has the eyes to use Amaterasu and Tsukiyomi and he's seen how Itachi's used Amaterasu and Tsukiyomi and even auto-used Amaterasu. It was a wrong choice of words on my part. What I meant was “similar” or “analogous”, not “equivalent”. Anyways, it is obvious what I was trying to say.

Addition:

Anyways, one can argue all he/she wants, but the manga evidence states:

http://media.onemanga.com/mangas/00000004/000028760/11.jpg

Madara says to Sasuke: "He [Itachi] transferred ALL his eye techniques into you".

What more evidence do you want? :) It is free gift.

[Rikudou King]

The goal of that fight (Itachi Vs Sasuke) for Sasuke was “to kill Itachi”. He did pay the price (in terms of injuries and hardwork) and killed Itachi. That’s it. Any other thing that Sasuke got from Itachi out of Itachi's own generosity is “free” regardless of whatever spin you want to put to defend Sasuke. Yeah, The goal was for Sauske to kill Itachi to gain MS. How did Sasuke not earn his MS abilities? The only thing Sasuke didn't have to work to get was the Transcription Seal: Amaterasu, Which was a one shot technique.


Itachi “transferred” some powers/abilities, NOT eyes themselves. Therefore, I’m not really sure what you’re attempting to prove by giving examples of tomoe. I think tomoe depends on the person. Even if Itachi did actually transfer the power, it does not automatically mean that Sasuke should possess Itachi’s eyes and tomoes. A possible reason for why Sasuke had Itachi’s tomoe for the first Amaterasu activation might be because it was a forced Amaterasu. That has already been proven to be a mistranslation.


You are assuming (without sufficient evidence) that the first Ameraterasu was Itachi’s and the subsequent ones have been Sasuke’s. I have already explained why this might not be the case above. The manga and third databook prove that all Itachi gave Sasuke was the Transcription Seal: Amaterasu, A one shot technique to kill Madara with. Thus the reason Sasuke's Sharingan took on the appearance of Itachi's MS. All the other techniques are Sasuke's own, Which can clearly be seen in the fact that Sasuke MS techniques are of different eyes then Itachi's techniques were, They have different power level, And Sasuke's Susanoo is completely different.


Anyways, one can argue all he/she wants, but the manga evidence states:

http://media.onemanga.com/mangas/00000004/000028760/11.jpg

Madara says to Sasuke: "He [Itachi] transferred ALL his eye techniques into you".

What more evidence do you want? :) It is free gift. Again, That was a mistranslation.

[M3J]

Itachi “transferred” some powers/abilities, NOT eyes themselves. Therefore, I’m not really sure what you’re attempting to prove by giving examples of tomoe. I think tomoe depends on the person. Even if Itachi did actually transfer the power, it does not automatically mean that Sasuke should possess Itachi’s eyes and tomoes. A possible reason for why Sasuke had Itachi’s tomoe for the first Amaterasu activation might be because it was a forced Amaterasu.
I was saying that Itachi's tomoe showed because it was his Amaterasu being used. If Sasuke used Amaterasu after that, it would have been Itachi's and thus, his tomoe would have shown instead of Sasuke's if Amaterasu really was a free gift. I think with different MS tomoe comes different abilities, like Sasuke's more proficiency over controlling Amaterasu as opposed to Itachi's proficiency in using MS genjutsu.
If it was his gift, it'd be associated with Itachi somehow, and that's via his MS tomoe to bring it out. And Sasuke being able to control Amaterasu better than Itachi isn't a gift. If he couldn't summon Amaterasu without it being a gift, then he wouldn't have been able to control it either as well as he did.


You are assuming (without sufficient evidence) that the first Ameraterasu was Itachi’s and the subsequent ones have been Sasuke’s. I have already explained why this might not be the case above.
Given that Sasuke has tried to summon it and succeeded, as well as able to control it and make it disappear (which if I recall correctly Itachi wasn't able to do), there's evidence that the ones with Sasuke's tomoe has been his Amaterasu.


It was a wrong choice of words on my part. What I meant was “similar” or “analogous”, not “equivalent”. Anyways, it is obvious what I was trying to say.

Addition:

Anyways, one can argue all he/she wants, but the manga evidence states:

http://media.onemanga.com/mangas/00000004/000028760/11.jpg

Madara says to Sasuke: "He [Itachi] transferred ALL his eye techniques into you".

What more evidence do you want? :) It is free gift.
It doesn't look similar though. Rinnegan's power belongs to those who has Rinnegan, there is no way Naruto can be able to use most of those jutsu, not without handseals anyway. Sasuke has Sharingan and MS to be able use Amaterasu, Susano'o, and Tsukiyomi.

Madara didn't totally know what Itachi was doing though. Sasuke's shown to use Mangekyou SHaringan well enough so it's not free gift. It takes skills and knowledge to be able to use any of those jutsu, which he has, along with being a genius; it was inevitable he would be able to use and almost master those jutsu.

[maaghms]

Yeah, The goal was for Sauske to kill Itachi to gain MS. How did Sasuke not earn his MS abilities? The only thing Sasuke didn't have to work to get was the Transcription Seal: Amaterasu, Which was a one shot technique.

That has already been proven to be a mistranslation.

The manga and third databook prove that all Itachi gave Sasuke was the Transcription Seal: Amaterasu, A one shot technique to kill Madara with. Thus the reason Sasuke's Sharingan took on the appearance of Itachi's MS. All the other techniques are Sasuke's own, Which can clearly be seen in the fact that Sasuke MS techniques are of different eyes then Itachi's techniques were, They have different power level, And Sasuke's Susanoo is completely different.



Anyways, one can argue all he/she wants, but the manga evidence states:

http://media.onemanga.com/mangas/000...0028760/11.jpg (http://media.onemanga.com/mangas/00000004/000028760/11.jpg)

Madara says to Sasuke: "He [Itachi] transferred ALL his eye techniques into you".

What more evidence do you want? :) It is free gift.

Again, That was a mistranslation.


Nice try but you keep claiming mistranslation this and mistranslation that. Perhaps, you can give us a more accurate or better translation… Then, why not prove that what I posted was a serious mistranslation such that the whole sentence significantly differs in meaning? Support your claim with proper sources/references. If you argue that it is a mistranslation, at least say what the correct translation would be.

Also, regarding what you mentioned about “The manga and third databook prove…”, which part of manga and third databook are you talking about. Did they explicitly mention that “it [what Itachi transferred to Sasuke] is a one-shot technique”? If so, do post the source. Without any source, you just seem to be arguing for the sake of arguing..

[TeAm#7FoReVer]

Addition:

Anyways, one can argue all he/she wants, but the manga evidence states:

http://media.onemanga.com/mangas/00000004/000028760/11.jpg

Madara says to Sasuke: "He [Itachi] transferred ALL his eye techniques into you".

What more evidence do you want? :) It is free gift.

The last thing (http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/393/14-15/) Itachi did to Sasuke before he died was the following technique:

Transcription Seal: Amaterasu (転写封印・天照, Tensha Fuuin: Amaterasu) (http://mangahelpers.com/forums/showthread.php?t=45246)
Ninjutsu, Fuuinjutsu, No rank, Supplementary, Short range (0-5m)
User: Uchiha Itachi

A ranging fire of black flames, handed out using the "Sharingan" as a medium

[picture sequence of Sasuke's Sharingan morphing into Itachi's Mangekyou Sharingan]
→The "Sharingan" with the "Amaterasu" sealed into it seizes the target determined by the user...

"Amaterasu," only usable by those who activated the "Mangekyou Sharingan," is the highest ranked ninjutsu from the Fire Release group. "Transcription Seal: Amaterasu" seals this effect into the Sharingan of a third party. Once the eye wherein the technique is sealed sees the specific target, the seal is broken and the "black flame that even consumes other flames" swoops down on its prey!!

[picture of Tobi being hit by the Amaterasu]
←Jet-black raging flames spring forth from the eye, attacking the target! There is no way to escape from this fury!

Now burning brightly
A jet-black world-destroying conflagration!!

So this proves without any doubt that Sasuke gained the MS techniques by himself, they were not transferred. The Amaterasu showed here (http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/397/02/) was Itachi´s, we can see his MS not Sasuke´s. The first time he used it was against KB with his own MS.

Furthermore, as this page shows (http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/224/19/), in order to awake MS you must kill your best friend or in another case someone close to you. Sasuke fulfilled the requirement killing Itachi (that was the price), and even he was sick, it was difficult for Sasuke to finally kill him.

I know MS have advantages in battles but also they carry terrible disavantages:

* A progressive blindness.
* Pain everytime they are used.
* The user can die if he uses too much, especially Susanoo.

And they are still called free power-ups?

[maaghms]

The last thing (http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/393/14-15/) Itachi did to Sasuke before he died was the following technique:

Transcription Seal: Amaterasu (転写封印・天照, Tensha Fuuin: Amaterasu) (http://mangahelpers.com/forums/showthread.php?t=45246)
Ninjutsu, Fuuinjutsu, No rank, Supplementary, Short range (0-5m)
User: Uchiha Itachi

A ranging fire of black flames, handed out using the "Sharingan" as a medium

[picture sequence of Sasuke's Sharingan morphing into Itachi's Mangekyou Sharingan]
→The "Sharingan" with the "Amaterasu" sealed into it seizes the target determined by the user...

"Amaterasu," only usable by those who activated the "Mangekyou Sharingan," is the highest ranked ninjutsu from the Fire Release group. "Transcription Seal: Amaterasu" seals this effect into the Sharingan of a third party. Once the eye wherein the technique is sealed sees the specific target, the seal is broken and the "black flame that even consumes other flames" swoops down on its prey!!

[picture of Tobi being hit by the Amaterasu]
←Jet-black raging flames spring forth from the eye, attacking the target! There is no way to escape from this fury!

Now burning brightly
A jet-black world-destroying conflagration!!

So this proves without any doubt that Sasuke gained the MS techniques by himself, they were not transferred. The Amaterasu showed here (http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/397/02/) was Itachi´s, we can see his MS not Sasuke´s. The first time he used it was against KB with his own MS.

Furthermore, as this page shows (http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/224/19/), in order to awake MS you must kill your best friend or in another case someone close to you. Sasuke fulfilled the requirement killing Itachi (that was the price), and even he was sick, it was difficult for Sasuke to finally kill him.

I know MS have advantages in battles but also they carry terrible disavantages:

* A progressive blindness.
* Pain everytime they are used.
* The user can die if he uses too much, especially Susanoo.

And they are still called free power-ups?


No, your post does NOT prove that Itachi did not give the abilities to Sasuke. Unless you want to say that Kishi is contradicting himself by making Madara say:

http://media.onemanga.com/mangas/00000004/000028760/11.jpg

http://www.mangavolume.com/index.php?serie=naruto&chapter=naruto-397&page_nr=11


Some people even claim that it is a mistranslation. Then, prove that it is mistranslated and state what the correct translation is.

[Xerous]

And he still gets his ass whooped each time... And sound 4 nins said that sasuke would have 2 sacrifice his sanity and stuffs 4 CS but surprise surprise, he was still normal after 3 years of using the CS... Sacrifising his humanity doesn't mean sh*t as kishi would just make him perfect lovable sasuke again.

duh because it was sealed he didn't even have access to its full power and kishi teased us w/ him thinking of removing the seal but that nvr happened:mad

[Cyven]

Again, That was a mistranslation.

If it's a mistranslation, the viz publishment of that chapter in volume 43 was mistranslated as well :\

I can scan the page for you if you want proof, but the "official" english release translated that sentence as:

Madara: "At the very end... He transferred his own ocular powers to you."

So yes, Itachi did give Sasuke Amaterasu etc, or at the very least unlocked that ability within Sasuke's own sharingan.

[Rikudou King]

Nice try but you keep claiming mistranslation this and mistranslation that. Perhaps, you can give us a more accurate or better translation… Then, why not prove that what I posted was a serious mistranslation such that the whole sentence significantly differs in meaning? Support your claim with proper sources/references. If you argue that it is a mistranslation, at least say what the correct translation would be.

Also, regarding what you mentioned about “The manga and third databook prove…”, which part of manga and third databook are you talking about. Did they explicitly mention that “it [what Itachi transferred to Sasuke] is a one-shot technique”? If so, do post the source. Without any source, you just seem to be arguing for the sake of arguing..


Sasuke: !
Tobi: In his last moments... for your own sake, he channelled the power of his own eyes into you.
Sasuke: What are you saying...? // ...Exactly... what are you getting at? // Why would Itachi do a thing like that...
Tobi: Don't you understand?
Sasuke: ?! Link. (http://mangahelpers.com/t/cnet128/releases/596)


11p
トン
*tap*

最後…　お前のために己の瞳力をお前の中へ注ぎ込んだのだ
Madara: In his last moments, he implanted his own eye power into you for your sake.

何を言ってる…？
Sasuke: What are you saying...?

…一体…　何が言いたい？
Sasuke: ...What do you mean exactly?

どうしてイタチがそんなことを…
Sasuke: Why would Itachi do such a...

分からないのか
Madara: Don't you understand? Link. (http://mangahelpers.com/t/torachan/releases/2708)


Transcription Seal: Amaterasu (転写封印・天照, Tensha Fuuin: Amaterasu)
Ninjutsu, Fuuinjutsu, No rank, Supplementary, Short range (0-5m)
User: Uchiha Itachi

A ranging fire of black flames, handed out using the "Sharingan" as a medium

[picture sequence of Sasuke's Sharingan morphing into Itachi's Mangekyou Sharingan]
→The "Sharingan" with the "Amaterasu" sealed into it seizes the target determined by the user...

"Amaterasu," only usable by those who activated the "Mangekyou Sharingan," is the highest ranked ninjutsu from the Fire Release group. "Transcription Seal: Amaterasu" seals this effect into the Sharingan of a third party. Once the eye wherein the technique is sealed sees the specific target, the seal is broken and the "black flame that even consumes other flames" swoops down on its prey!!

[picture of Tobi being hit by the Amaterasu]
←Jet-black raging flames spring forth from the eye, attacking the target! There is no way to escape from this fury!

Now burning brightly
A jet-black world-destroying conflagration!!
There all the evidence you need. Itachi gave Sasuke one thing, Which hasn't been seen sense. Why are you ignoring the fact that their MS's are completely different. How could Itachi have given Sasuke his MS techniques when Sasuke's techniques are clearly different.
1. They're contained in different eyes.
2. Various characters have commented that Sasuke's Tsukuyomi is nowhere near as powerful as Itachi and that his Amaterasu is stronger.
3. There Susanoo's are different.
4. Sasuke doesn't have the Yata mirror or the Totsuka sword that Itachi did.
5. The one technique that Itachi did give Sasuke made Sasuke's Sharingan take the form of Itachi's MS.


If it's a mistranslation, the viz publishment of that chapter in volume 43 was mistranslated as well :\ It isn't the first time they done it.

[Sachsenhesse]

* A progressive blindness.
* Pain everytime they are used.
* The user can die if he uses too much, especially Susanoo.

eh... what?

Sasuke overused the Mangekyou since he got it... blindness not really yet and then in his madness he takes the eyes of his brother and booyah...

Oh no pain when used? Thats a really bad thing to narutos higher tailtransforms where he goes unconscious oder izanagi which closes the eyes for ever.

Ah come on "die if he uses too much" sasuke did use susanoo in the entirefight with danzo, he used it long time by the fight against raigake too... i would say susanoo never brought him neardead. Also such a thing is often used in mangas for superstronghaxpowers, just take pains megashinra tensei konan feared "this will shorten your life D:" In the end he died not related to that.
The same is in One Piece Luffys Gear 2 and 3. And he stills spams it. ^^

[Weapon_X]

Nothing which Sasuke has are "free gifts" I don't know where people are getting this from. People have to realize that Itachi DID NOT give anything to Sasuke, it's Sasuke's OWN MS. All Itachi did to Sasuke was Tensha Fuin: Amaterasu which was a fail safe against Madara, hence why Itachi's MS activated in Sasuke's eye as a last resort to kill Madara.

After that, all the Amaterasu, Tsukiyomi and Susano'o which Sasuke has been using is all his. He achieved MS due to Itachi's death, I don't call that a "free gift". He achieved Enton, surpassing Itachi in using Amaterasu. And through using Tsukiyomi he achieved Susano'o, just like how every other Uchiha who has MS achieve their powers.

So where are the "free gifts" coming from?

[SuperSaiyaMan]

Well in over 200 chapters, Sasuke hasn't been shown to train to do anything, Weapon X.

[Delbi]

He trained for two and a half years, I think that's enough training. Also, the powers he currently has aren't "trainable" for obvious reasons, like the fact that they kill and blind him when he uses them. His own natural talent and genes would make it so he'd become good with them fast, as in his MS powers. Summoning a Hawk is no biggie either, question just is where did he get the contract from.

[Xerous]

so i hav'nt seen anyone train except that sage mode

[Weapon_X]

Well in over 200 chapters, Sasuke hasn't been shown to train to do anything, Weapon X.

Does Kishi need to show everything? If that was the case then he might aswell show all of us how every character in his series came about with their powers...but he doesn't because it's not needed. And Sasuke should be no exception.

He's already trained with Oro for 2.5 years, and he still uses everything he does. He can't train with MS because that's just stupid for the obvious reason:

It would lead to blindess quicker

Also no where in the series or databook does it say that you need to train to achieve MS or achieve Susano'o. To achieve Susano'o, Amaterasu and Tsukiyomi have to be unlocked, which Sasuke did. There's no training regime to gain Susano'o.

[SuperSaiyaMan]

He trained for 2.5 years. So did Naruto and Sakura. But unlike our main character, Sasuke hasnt' had any training arcs and seems to pull powers out of no where. That's why, to non-Sasuke fans, it seems like he has had free powerups, asspulls, etc.

[niblack89]

All of Naruto's power ups are based on his training ( the fox don't count it's not a power-up in till he can control it and not the other way around) resangan, FRS and sage mode he had to come up with ways to master the jutsu.

Sasuke the only jutsus he actually had to learn by himself was the chidori and the fire ball jutsu. Curse mark granted him powers, he stole Oro's powers, after he lost all those he gained MS jutsus. All he has to do with that is figure out how to use them that's all. He does no training. I'll give it that he doesn't need training fighting gets him stronger but the last time he actually learned a jutsu was during that 2.5 year time-skip.

Hell after this fight his sight will hit the crapper after how many times he used his MS in one full day so he will want his brothers eyes for fear of the darkness. Another given power and Jutsu


so i hav'nt seen anyone train except that sage mode

There was the FRS training. After that the series switched to Sasuke for a while so before you say that's all after that fight the series didn't get back to Naruto until they announced to him the Jirayia was dead. It's 2 more training sessions sasuke ever had

[Rikudou King]

He trained for 2.5 years. So did Naruto and Sakura. But unlike our main character, Sasuke hasnt' had any training arcs and seems to pull powers out of no where. That's why, to non-Sasuke fans, it seems like he has had free powerups, asspulls, etc. The only thing he has gain after the time skip is his MS. Everything else he has showcased he learned during the time skip, Unlike with Naruto who didn't learn anything, Thus the reason we have to see him train now.

[Delbi]

He trained for 2.5 years. So did Naruto and Sakura. But unlike our main character, Sasuke hasnt' had any training arcs and seems to pull powers out of no where. That's why, to non-Sasuke fans, it seems like he has had free powerups, asspulls, etc.

How is he pulling powers out of no-where? Everything he has aside from the Hawk has a logical explanation as to why he can use it.

The hatred thing is a bit much, but again, it isn't like it's something that just out of the blue came upon Sasuke, it's been foreshadowed from Part 1 that Sasuke has a lot of hatred in his heart.

[TeAm#7FoReVer]

No, your post does NOT prove that Itachi did not give the abilities to Sasuke. Unless you want to say that Kishi is contradicting himself by making Madara say:

http://media.onemanga.com/mangas/00000004/000028760/11.jpg

http://www.mangavolume.com/index.php?serie=naruto&chapter=naruto-397&page_nr=11


Some people even claim that it is a mistranslation. Then, prove that it is mistranslated and state what the correct translation is.

Well, Rikodou King already give the rest of the translations, cnet has the most reliable translations. It depends the interpretation you or someone else want to give to the rest of the translations because power by itself it is a pretty vague word.

Furthermore, it would not be the first time Kishi contradicting himself. For example: Tsukuyomi was stated to be the ultimate genjutsu and now Izanagi is the ultimate genjutsu.

My previous post did prove that Itachi only do that jutsu, not anything else. He did it to protect Sasuke, Itachi sealed his Amaterasu to Sasuke´s eye in order to kill Madara. When Sasuke saw Madara´s sharingan, Itachi´s Amaterasu unsealed to burn Madara. That´s it.


eh... what?

Sasuke overused the Mangekyou since he got it... blindness not really yet and then in his madness he takes the eyes of his brother and booyah...

Oh no pain when used? Thats a really bad thing to narutos higher tailtransforms where he goes unconscious oder izanagi which closes the eyes for ever.

Ah come on "die if he uses too much" sasuke did use susanoo in the entirefight with danzo, he used it long time by the fight against raigake too... i would say susanoo never brought him neardead. Also such a thing is often used in mangas for superstronghaxpowers, just take pains megashinra tensei konan feared "this will shorten your life D:" In the end he died not related to that.
The same is in One Piece Luffys Gear 2 and 3. And he stills spams it. ^^

15 (http://mangahelpers.com/t/cnet128/releases/494)
Itachi: The Mangekyou Sharingan... // These eyes are special.
Sasuke: .........?
Itachi: Once they have been awakened, they begin their walk down the path to darkness. // The more they are used, the further they seal themselves away.
Sasuke: What are you getting at?
Itachi: The Mangekyou will one day be lost to the light.

5 (http://mangahelpers.com/t/cnet128/releases/16562)
Sasuke: Ngh!
Karin: (This guy... is he dead? / His Chakra flow had stopped completely, so I thought it was strange, but...)
Sasuke: (Every cell in my body hurts... So this is the risk that Susanoo carries...) // *pant* // *pant* // *pant* // (If I keep using it for too long, then this happens... // And this is without even managing to call forth its full form...... // Just how much pain must Itachi have......?)

http://media.onemanga.com/mangas/00000004/000275422/01.jpg

http://media.onemanga.com/mangas/00000004/000275422/12.jpg

http://media.onemanga.com/mangas/00000004/000275422/13.jpg

Yeah, he really enjoys spamming MS techniques, just look at his face, he is getting fun. Even I do not know why Itachi died while using Susanoo.

Besides, what do Naruto and Danzou have to do with this? I didnt say turning into kyubbi doesnt hurt Naruto or losing one eye each time is used was pleasant. Anyway, those examples do not negate that Sasuke suffers a lot of pain because of MS techniques.

-----

About the training topic, we have already saw Sasuke´s training since he obtained MS : his fights. Madara sends Sasuke to fight in order to train his eyes.

Tobi (http://mangahelpers.com/t/cnet128/releases/16636): A Sharingan that can activate even Susanoo is a rarity... / I wouldn't want to let a nice pair of eyes like that slip through my fingers. // In fact, I wanted to give him the opportunity to train them up further in combat with the Five Kages...

I think Tobi said everything. :amuse

[M3J]

If it's a mistranslation, the viz publishment of that chapter in volume 43 was mistranslated as well :\

I can scan the page for you if you want proof, but the "official" english release translated that sentence as:

Madara: "At the very end... He transferred his own ocular powers to you."

So yes, Itachi did give Sasuke Amaterasu etc, or at the very least unlocked that ability within Sasuke's own sharingan.
Problem with that is, if Sasuke couldn't use Amaterasu on his own, how did he get the power to control it better than Itachi?
From what we've seen, Madara and his brother are the first to unlock Mangekyou Sharingan. Is it free gift they both were able to use their MS jutsu despite not knowing anything about it (speculation?)?


Well in over 200 chapters, Sasuke hasn't been shown to train to do anything, Weapon X.

Well, Naruto wasn't shown to have been trained for oodama rasengan... not fair to say Sasuke's gotten free gifts just because we haven't seen him train.
He's a genius. He's been acknowledged as a genius before he got his Sharingan, even before Uchiha massacre. It makes sense he can use Amaterasu and Susano'o, even if inexpertly, on first try and improve considerably on second try. Even if he did get MS jutsu as free gift, he's still genius enough to be able to master them well enough.

[zagorka]

Well I don't agree with people saying that Sasuke gets free upgrades. I mean, if you read Psyren, you see new techniques that aren't seen anywhere before, nor is there much evidence of training they have done. Here, it's just supposed to be... common sense that a ninja like Sasuke would be getting stronger slowly. Especially since he's been battling so much. Obviously he's going to get stronger. Plus, he has the sharingan. The more he fights with it, the more powerful he becomes. The experience Sasuke retains through the sharingan, the many techniques he can copy, and the general growth he'll have is obviously going to be much greater than Naruto who doesn't battle often, and because of this has to train...

The only thing I thought was out of the blue, and too convenient theme-wise was the Hawk Summoning. Sure, Juugo could have helped and aided Sasuke in obtaining this summoning contract behind the scenes, since he's close with nature, but still...

The other thing I don't like is how Sasuke is suddenly a pro at using his techniques, but I guess we'll have to deal with that, since he's a "genius".

[Sachsenhesse]

15
Itachi: The Mangekyou Sharingan... // These eyes are special.
Sasuke: .........?
Itachi: Once they have been awakened, they begin their walk down the path to darkness. // The more they are used, the further they seal themselves away.
Sasuke: What are you getting at?
Itachi: The Mangekyou will one day be lost to the light.

and now comes my second point in handy, itachis eyes, he will take them and the greatest failure of the mangekyou is vanished



5
Sasuke: Ngh!
Karin: (This guy... is he dead? / His Chakra flow had stopped completely, so I thought it was strange, but...)
Sasuke: (Every cell in my body hurts... So this is the risk that Susanoo carries...) // *pant* // *pant* // *pant* // (If I keep using it for too long, then this happens... // And this is without even managing to call forth its full form...... // Just how much pain must Itachi have......?)

Haha yeah... and now go and read again the danzofight, he´s really in pain, actually he can use susanoo and attack simultany, so much pain he feels right now.

By itachi it still was balanced in my eyes, it was a strong technique with a strong sideeffect, but by sasuke this sideffect is more and more a joke. Itachi used susanoo in his last move, sasuke spams it all the way, thats just ridiculous for a such a "dangerous" move.

[khar2]

and now comes my second point in handy, itachis eyes, he will take them and the greatest failure of the mangekyou is vanished



Haha yeah... and now go and read again the danzofight, he´s really in pain, actually he can use susanoo and attack simultany, so much pain he feels right now.

By itachi it still was balanced in my eyes, it was a strong technique with a strong sideeffect, but by sasuke this sideffect is more and more a joke. Itachi used susanoo in his last move, sasuke spams it all the way, thats just ridiculous for a such a "dangerous" move.

nice post i agree, but wait???
->what about Sage Mode, wow, how many boost to sucky ninja so it cen become godlike, in what areas, oh wait ALL:D
->kyubi and 8 tails, oh wait unlimited chakra, fast healing............(<-we saw what Bee can do)
->lets not forget self proclaimd god, Pain
->hidans "kiling me killing you" move, deidaras invisible c4, kisames Samaeheda, Kakuzus hearts, 1st moukoton(dont know how to spell it), Madaras and 4th teleport, Kakashis MS, Danzos izanagi (and etc)......
->point, sharingan is hax abillity itself, but its not only one and surely its not the best

About sasukes training
->you are bitching when sasuke is fighting, and when we have chapter when we see him
->but now you are bitching because we dont see him offten
->didnt cross anyones mind that MS training is meditation, not spaming it arond (what would be point of chapter where we see sauske resting and meditating in room):D, there would be major bitching about that on this forum

Itachis blindnes Vs Sauske Blindnes
->itachi had his MS for 7 years before he went blind(if i am not wrong in flashback sauske has 7 years and now is 15, correct me please if i am wrong)
->we possibly dont know how many times itachi used his MS during that time
->and susuke now spamed it against danzo for 5/6 min(just susanoo), with 1 amaterasu, and 2 tsukiyomies, look at it Itachi spammed that much in his last fight (so chakra is no problem)

Bigger picture of MS spamming
->on Manga panels we saw itachi making 4 tsukiyomies, 2 amaterasus, and 1 susanoo
->and sasuke made 4 tsukiyomies, 3 amatersus, and 2 susanos
->i admit he is using it too much (he used amaterasu and susano, more the itachi, i mean in time, not just activation), but i think it is too much to say that he will go blind after having it for few week when itachi could hold on for 7 years

EMS
->another thing, he also has sideeffect itachi was talking about, his eyes are constantly bleeding(after Ama), ha holds for his head and eyes(after Tsuko), and he is on knees from pain(after susanoo), so it seems huge stress MS has on body after his usage
->only thing EMS is going to change is that his eyes will stop sealing(no blindness) while i think huge stress on body will stay, solving only half of the problem, couse sauske alwey after battle look like he has been hit by a truck:D

[thefreak]

Yes they are free gifts from Uchiha Kishimoto to Uchiha Sasuke.
Remember Itachi in part 1? He had to rest after using 1 tsukyomi and 1 Amaterasu.
Here Saasuke is spamming MS jutsu's like he is popping bubblegum baloons.

[khar2]

Yes they are free gifts from Uchiha Kishimoto to Uchiha Sasuke.
Remember Itachi in part 1? He had to rest after using 1 tsukyomi and 1 Amaterasu.
Here Saasuke is spamming MS jutsu's like he is popping bubblegum baloons.
<hr noshade size="1">
One word -- FanBoy

well he didn't, i mean he indured last battle without rest, so it mean he has chakra and endurance, but difference is he wanted to rest after, i mean he could stick and perform 1 or 2 MS's but what would be the point if he didnt want to fight:D (he was runing fast, not being in pain on ground, or on kisames back) so he needed rest but was still in shape to fight

fanboy yes, totally, what would i do if i am not defending sauske:D (<-i am little sarcastic)
now seriously, yes indeed i sympathize with sasuke more the with naruto,couse i think i am more of a susuke then naruto in soul (i have also my vengeful part, and i survived war, i wansnt soldier but i survived Bombardments, shoots..... so if you think of me as fanboy, i wont care, go ahead)

[SketchyPhoenix]

Sasuke: What are you getting at?
Itachi: The Mangekyou will one day be lost to the light.

^

I have a strong feeling this is foreshadowing to some deus ex machina of instant redemption for Sasuke.

AAAANYWAY, Sasuke has his genius to analyze techniques quickly.
Naruto has mass shadow clone training to refine his technique.

[Delbi]

Yes they are free gifts from Uchiha Kishimoto to Uchiha Sasuke.
Remember Itachi in part 1? He had to rest after using 1 tsukyomi and 1 Amaterasu.
Here Saasuke is spamming MS jutsu's like he is popping bubblegum baloons.

Considering Sasuke's stamina has always been much greater than Itachi's since the beginning of Part 2, I fail to see how this is a problem.

Compound that, with the fact Itachi was terminally ill, and Sasuke just recieved a chakra boost due to losing the cursed seal and his hatred, and there's no reason why Sasuke wouldn't be able to spam his MS in the manner he does.

[SuperSaiyaMan]

...why does Sasuke recieve a so called 'chakra boost' from the very thing that gives him a Chakra boost, Delbi? His hatred just means he pushes things too far. His body is going to be an absolute wreck after his battle with Danzo.

[Rikudou King]

Sasuke got a chakra boost from not having to hold Orochimaru back, And his hatred is probably boosting his spiritual energy, Thus helping him make more chakra.

[SuperSaiyaMan]

Sasuke got a chakra boost from not having to hold Orochimaru back, And his hatred is probably boosting his spiritual energy, Thus helping him make more chakra.
Confirmation of a chakra boost from not having to hold Orochimaru back? Oro isn't a Biju, so I don't see how that could work.

And how can an influx of Spiritual Energy make more chakra? Narutoverse Chakra, if I recall, is mixing Spiritual and Physical Energy. Excess Spiritual Energy would be detrimental to Sasuke's stamina, since his physical energy hasn't increased.

[maaghms]

so i hav'nt seen anyone train except that sage mode

Now, why are we comparing Sasuke (who is the de facto main character) and other secondary or tertiary characters? Trainings for other characters such as Kakashi don't have to shown because they are NOT "the main character". Naruto, who seems to be even less important than Sasuke to the plot, has to train his ass off to get something whilst the de facto main character, Sasuke, doesn't have to train anything and pull out techniques out of his ass at a rate of 24 techs per day and spamming them continously without any rest? Seriously!

If you don't call that free, what is free?

Anyways, general comment:

*sign.*

Everything depends on how you define “free”. If you get a “free gift” from a shopping mall, you might agree that it is free. But another person can point out that that “free gift” is a way of advertising somebody’s product, so it’s not actually free, but instead, it is a payment for you for listening to their advertisement!

Is the air which you breathe “free”? Many people will say yes. But some people can come up with different (weird/stupid) logics to argue that it’s not free.

Thus, the debate for this thread will never end. Even though many people (as the poll suggests) think that many of Sasuke’s powers are free gifts, some people will always come up with weird logics to argue otherwise.

[Rikudou King]

Confirmation of a chakra boost from not having to hold Orochimaru back? Oro isn't a Biju, so I don't see how that could work. When Orochimaru manifested out of Sasuke during the fight with Itachi, Zetsu and Orochimaru made mention that Sasuke had been surpassing Orochimaru with his chakra.


And how can an influx of Spiritual Energy make more chakra? Narutoverse Chakra, if I recall, is mixing Spiritual and Physical Energy. Excess Spiritual Energy would be detrimental to Sasuke's stamina, since his physical energy hasn't increased. Physical energy increases with training and fighting, Which is basically what Sasuke's been doing since he left Orochimaru. He's been in about five fights that drove him to his limits. With him now actively focusing on his hatred in recent fights, He's bound to be generating more chakra then he was in the past.

[kisame123]

I can't believe this thread is still going on! yet, it's sad to see the poll despite the beautiful arguments against the "free power-up" ideas.

anyways, I don't think that hatred increases Sasuke's chakra, there's not enough to suggest that yet-albeit Delbi's spiritual energy argument is very good. I think people, generally, have a hard time accepting the fact that Sasuke has powerful chakra since we've grown accustomed to Naruto being a "chakra monster". it's still important to remember that Sasuke was said to have more chakra than Kakashi when he was a child. now that Sasuke's older, that definitely seems to have changed and will probably increase as he gets older.

Aside from that, surely gaining the Mangekyou Sharingan must increase your chakra reserves since using its techniques is training. in order to use the Mangekyou techniques, one requires a great deal of chakra. otherwise, Sasuke, Itachi, or anyother user wouldn't be able to use it more than a few times during the battle. thus, the Mangekyou users simply have more chakra than usual because of their higher doujutsu which depends on more chakra. when one unlocks the Mangekyou, I believe, their chakra reserves increase instantly or can increase in the future as the Mangekyou techniques are used more and more. it's simply a matter of evolution and adaptation to using more powerful techniques which require more chakra.

however, I'm going to post a few links to the manga that, hopefully, should make it clear why Sasuke has so much chakra:

"The elder brother was born with the sennin's 'eyes'...the strength of chakra and spiritual energy"

( here http://read.mangashare.com/Naruto/chapter-462/page012.html )

just to give you an idea of what Rikudou Sennin's chakra was like, let me use Nagato, another Rinnegan user, as a comparison:


Pain Rikudou jutsu requires incredibly vast chakra reserves. I can't imagine how much chakra Nagato has, considering the fact that he's channeling his chakra for himself (to stay alive of course and do jutsu), and to all the other six bodies which can do large-scale unique jutsu's, and generally have strong physical capabilities. Here the ANBU member confirms this,

"his chakra levels must be high... he's able to control those corpses by chakra alone."
http://read.mangashare.com/Naruto/chapter-428/page014.html

Apparently Deva Realm's chakra alone, can be felt from a distance before cutting off chakra to other Realms
http://read.mangashare.com/Naruto/chapter-428/page010.html

what Nagato did to Konoha, when channeling the chakra of six bodies excluding himself, to Deva Realm.
http://read.mangashare.com/Naruto/chapter-429/page011.html

Here's what Nagato did to Kyuubi, Chibaku Tensei.
http://read.mangashare.com/Naruto/chapter-439/page007.html
NOTE: It's important to keep in mind that Deva Realm had to leave the outskirts of Konoha to do this technique. transmitting chakra to those bodies must be exhausting, considering the fact that some chakra may be lost during the transmission and because of the sheer distance between the transmitter and the receiver. Nagato, or the Rinnegan user, must have incredible chakra reserves to be able to do all these techniques from a distance while not even being there physically!

I don't need to pull out Gedo Rinne Tensei or the Gedo Mazou attack used on Hanzou!

back to the subject, unlike Nagato, Rikudou Sennin was the jinchuuriki of the Juubi. in other words, he had all the chakra of all the Bijuu. we know that the Senju and the Uchiha definitely have genetic traits of the Sennin, that have been in some way, altered or mutated by the Juubi. the point is, Rikudou Sennin as a jinchuuriki had much greater chakra reserves than Nagato. If the Uchiha inherited the chakra of the Rinnegan user and jinchuuriki of the Juubi, even if that power has diluted over time, then the Uchiha will certainly have incredible chakra reserves. I'll let you guys imagine how much chakra where talking about, but Kishimoto isn't joking around when he says the Uchiha have powerful chakra.


...please don't try to allude to Jinchuuriki passing down demonic traits to their children. There is no proof of it, and not only that, what if the Rikudou Sennin had his sons before he sealed the Jyubi?
It's a fact that Hashirama's Mokuton and the Mangekyou Sharingan can control and bend the bijuu, which are essentially fractions of the Juubi, to the users' will. in other words, both powers by virtue of their genetics, can control the bijuu. if that doesn't make it clear enough, I don't know what will. even so, I will provide for you the link to a picture of the Juubi, take a look at its eye:

http://read.mangashare.com/Naruto/chapter-467/page014.html

even if we were to cast this aside for argument's sake, it still doesn't take into the account the Rinnegan user's vast chakra reserves. I don't know if any of you have noticed, but Nagato in a single battle used techniques that not even jinchuuriki have enough chakra to use considering what we've seen so far. Naruto gets tired after a few shots of his trump card and even the Hachibi hasn't made anything as impressive or anything to scale of Chibaku Tensei, Shinra Tensei, Gedo Rinne Tensei. Nagato, the Rinnegan user who was naturally bestowed with massive chakra reserves, was spamming these techniques like there was no tomorrow.

with that said, I still take into account in my argument, the fact that there is a great deal of distance between the Uchiha today and Rikudou Sennin. the bloodline undoubtedly weakened as time went on because the genetic traits of newer generations grew stronger and became dominant as the genetic traits of Rikudou Sennin receded and weakened. However, the Uchiha were inbred, the Uchiha will only marry within their own clan. It's logical because any female Uchiha breeding with a non-Uchiha would have meant a Sharingan ending up outside of the clan or a non-Uchiha Sharingan user, which never happened and is not going to happen either. I think it became even more clear when it was mentioned that Itachi killed his girlfriend meaning she was an Uchiha. thus, the Uchiha married within their own clan to retain their genetics, avoid diluting their blood, and genetic pollution. therefore, the Uchiha were still very close to Rikudou Sennin in a sense that they were "pure". I can't say the same thing for the Senju as Minato, Yondaime, married a non-Senju, Kushina, who was from the former Whirlpool country. That may be the case with most of the Senju, they probably have integrated and assimilated with the rest of the village if not other clans and that's probably why only Hashirama has special Bijuu-controlling powers.

[SuperSaiyaMan]

...please don't try to allude to Jinchuuriki passing down demonic traits to their children. There is no proof of it, and not only that, what if the Rikudou Sennin had his sons before he sealed the Jyubi?

[khar2]

...please don't try to allude to Jinchuuriki passing down demonic traits to their children. There is no proof of it, and not only that, what if the Rikudou Sennin had his sons before he sealed the Jyubi?

hmm good point, but we all think it has for a few reasons
sharingan look like 1/3 of jubies eye, rienngan is jubies eye without tomes, at least i think
also i dont think there was anything special about sennin before he closed jubi inside himself, except he knew some super sealing jutsu:D

[kisame123]

I'm going to continue to add some of my arguments to this thread, it's going to become a collection of sorts :)

Also, yes, the Sharingan from the very beginning has always seemed to evolve in situations of greatly heightened emotions.
true, the same usually goes for almost every other meaningful source of power. the Kyuubi was awakened during heightened emotional and stressful conditions, that's why the seal became weak in the first place. however, Sasuke is training his Mangekyou through his fights as Madara intended, even though it may only be three techniques. even still, only two out of the three techniques have been perfected, tsukuyomi is still not what it should be-susanoo also seems to be missing its items, but still looks complete.

"A Sharingan that can activate even susanoo is a rarity... I wouldn't want to let a nice pair of eyes like that slip through my fingers.

In fact, I wanted to give him the opportunity to train them up further in combat with the five kages."
( http://read.mangashare.com/Naruto/chapter-467/page009.html )

the Sharingan is not the only doujutsu that can apparently awakened through heightened emotional and stressful situations, it appears the Rinnegan was also awakened or at least had its powers awakened

when Nagato witnessed the death of his parents
- ( http://read.mangashare.com/Naruto/chapter-444/page017.html )
and when Yahiko was attacked in front of him. he killed the ninja without even knowing what happened.
- ( http://read.mangashare.com/Naruto/chapter-446/page005.html )
also from the same link above, you can train doujutsu after awakening them as well.
- "He claimed he was teaching us to defend ourselves, but it felt like he was helping me gain control over the Rinnegan."


that's not all, other kekkei genkai can be awakened under the same conditions. I'm sure hardly anybody can remember this from back in the day, but Haku awoke his abilities when he was child and unknowingly killed his father without a clue of what his abilities were.

http://read.mangashare.com/Naruto/chapter-029/page012.html

so therefore in the context of this manga, there are no such things are "free powerups". that kind of thinking is just ridiculous, bloodline abilities have been present since the first chapter. even our own hero, Naruto has the most powerful of all abilities, the Kyuubi which was sealed into him as hope to defeat Madara and if that wasn't all, then Naruto was hinted to be a Senju who has the body of Rikudou Sennin. the body of Rikudou Sennin has been passed down all these generations through the Senju clan and therefore, it is a bloodline ability. a ninja shouldn't be judged by what natural abilities he or she may have, but should be judged by how they may use their Kekkei Genkai or other powers to the best of their abilities. for example, most of the jinchuuriki did not master their powers, yet Killerbee was another case. likewise, the entire Uchiha clan was pathetically slaughtered like lambs by Itachi, by a mere thirteen year old, and yet we have people like Itachi, Madara, Izuna, and Sasuke.

Sasuke never had it easy for him, he always was chasing after Itachi by training and even today, he has never really reached Itachi's level. Sasuke is training his powers, no one can deny that anymore and I think people are starting realize that he is truly skilled.

[jdw]

@Kisame123: There isn't very much "training" when you go from acquisition through emotion to sheer mastery and then evolution of the jutsu in a matter of relatively few minutes in battle.

Meh.

[M3J]

I really do not agree with accusations of Sasuke getting free gifts or powerups. If you say that, you'd have to basically say the same about Kakashi, Nagato, and etc. how can Naruto, an idiot, be able to master rasengan in a week when it took Minato three years, even though he created it from scratch? Minato and Kakashi are genius, yet they could not elementally recompose rasengan, which Naruto apparently did. He even mastered Sage Mode, which Jiraiya was unable to do even with Fusaku (sorry if I misspelled) and Shima on his shoulders.
It's because we've seen Naruto train and work hard for it. We saw him in the field, working hard and continuously doing rasengan, and even passing out. It's because we saw him trying to split the leaves, asking Asuma, trying to split the waterfall, and trying to add elemental recomposition to rasengan.

Yes, Sasuke is a genius. Yes, Sasuke has Sharingan. Yes, he evidently wins a lot of fights. But he trains. Just because we don't see it doesn't mean he doesn't train. We usually see it in flashback; Sasuke's chidori and taijutsu, esp speed, training was seen in flashback and mentioned. Sasuke training to walk up the trees was seen too, along with Naruto, but Sasuke still failed. Sakura went all the way up to the tree whereas Sasuke failed to do so. Hell, he was even scared of Orochimaru until Naruto knocked some sense into him. We've seen Sasuke train too, when he was against 1000 shinobi.
Sasuke's mastery over many ninjutsu come easier because he's a genius. Stated since he was a kid, being the top of his class. Even Naruto looked up to him and girls were infatuated with him. Being able to learn and use jutsu and taijutsu and etc is even easier because of the Sharingan. It's why he was able to copy Lee's movements, and even be able to master chidori.
Despite Sharingan, he still got beat up by Lee. He still had problem against Killerbee and Raikage. Orochimaru scared him shitless, and even that sound nin had the upperhand. Because Sasuke's a genius and because of his Sharingan, he was able to win by copying Lee's technique and then creating his own, which Naruto copied and modified.

Besides, it's pretty hard to practice Mangekyou Sharingan when usage speeds up the sealing of eyes.

[Charred]

We'll see how the recent developments are caused to elaborate whether they are free gifts or not.
Anything pre-danzou fight is pretty much normal development, except the oro absorb crap. It was simply a free gift in order to put sasuke on par w Akatsuki & make him able to kill 30% Itachi.

[jdw]

I really do not agree with accusations of Sasuke getting free gifts or powerups. If you say that, you'd have to basically say the same about Kakashi, Nagato, and etc. how can Naruto, an idiot, be able to master rasengan in a week when it took Minato three years, even though he created it from scratch? Minato and Kakashi are genius, yet they could not elementally recompose rasengan, which Naruto apparently did. He even mastered Sage Mode, which Jiraiya was unable to do even with Fusaku (sorry if I misspelled) and Shima on his shoulders.
It's because we've seen Naruto train and work hard for it. We saw him in the field, working hard and continuously doing rasengan, and even passing out. It's because we saw him trying to split the leaves, asking Asuma, trying to split the waterfall, and trying to add elemental recomposition to rasengan.

Yes, Sasuke is a genius. Yes, Sasuke has Sharingan. Yes, he evidently wins a lot of fights. But he trains. Just because we don't see it doesn't mean he doesn't train. We usually see it in flashback; Sasuke's chidori and taijutsu, esp speed, training was seen in flashback and mentioned. Sasuke training to walk up the trees was seen too, along with Naruto, but Sasuke still failed. Sakura went all the way up to the tree whereas Sasuke failed to do so. Hell, he was even scared of Orochimaru until Naruto knocked some sense into him. We've seen Sasuke train too, when he was against 1000 shinobi.
Sasuke's mastery over many ninjutsu come easier because he's a genius. Stated since he was a kid, being the top of his class. Even Naruto looked up to him and girls were infatuated with him. Being able to learn and use jutsu and taijutsu and etc is even easier because of the Sharingan. It's why he was able to copy Lee's movements, and even be able to master chidori.
Despite Sharingan, he still got beat up by Lee. He still had problem against Killerbee and Raikage. Orochimaru scared him shitless, and even that sound nin had the upperhand. Because Sasuke's a genius and because of his Sharingan, he was able to win by copying Lee's technique and then creating his own, which Naruto copied and modified.

Besides, it's pretty hard to practice Mangekyou Sharingan when usage speeds up the sealing of eyes.

Despite all of this, I think the truth of the matter is that Sasuke does train hard for some powers, and others are essentially free level-ups that he masters and evolves in what is really no time at all.

[M3J]

Despite all of this, I think the truth of the matter is that Sasuke does train hard for some powers, and others are essentially free level-ups that he masters and evolves in what is really no time at all.

It makes sense though. He's a genius; while he may not be as effective first time, he can learn and improve. Mangekyou Sharingan isn't a good idea to practice with unless needed, but it's probably easier to learn, at least for people like Itachi and Sasuke. And free level-ups IMO don't work as well if not used properly or smartly. While Sasuke does spam MS without visible effects, we don't see it in his point of view, what he thinks. We did see him feel the effects after his first usage. His eyes are bleeding and I think his MS disappeared in right eye. maybe it doesn't take its toll immediately as Itachi had Mangekyou Sharingan for years and wasn't blind or as blind in Part I

[jdw]

If we look at the affairs of the Kage summit, and when Susanoo supposedly awoke in Sasuke, he had a fight with Raikage in which Susanoo riblet edition appeared. Directly after that encounter, but during the same timeframe, Susanoo skeleton edition appeared wielding a sword. Sasuke was saved and Madara left the kage summit. Karin healed Sasuke and they exited Madara's pocket dimension. Upon fighting Danzou, shortly into the fight Sasuke reveals complete Susanoo, wearing a Thriller jacket and carrying a bow and a flaming ball. The event surrounding Susanoo seemingly take place on the same day, or perhaps over 1.5 - 2 days (I think it all took place within 24 hours or less, starting one evening/night and finishing the following afternoon, but it cannot be proven). While I did say it was drawn out, that doesn't mean the fight took days, weeks, or months. It was drawn out in chapters, meaning weeks of my life. In manga time it wasn't terribly long at all.

All in all, I consider many users here to be engaged in large-scale dishonesty on the topic of Sasuke's power.

[Delbi]

Ok, seriously all this needs to stop.

What powers has Sasuke gotten for free, if any?

Let's start from the way beginning.

He activated his Sharigan at the age of 7 due to high stress levels. His parents had to die for this to happen to him

Later, at the age of 13, Sasuke had his Sharigan activated in a life or death situation. TAKE NOTE HERE: At this point, we see that Sasuke's powers and abilities develope fastest while he is in battle, unlike Naruto, who needs to train heavily.

Even still prior to this, we know that Sasuke trained extensively to learn his families Katon techniques and trained in weapon usage when he was only 7 years old. At 13 he also trained with Naruto to better his chakra control in tree climbing exercises.

Before the Chunnin exams, Sasuke trained for a month with Kakashi.

In that month alone, he not only learned and mastered chidori, but also increased his speed to the point where he was as fast as Lee without weights.

TAKE NOTE AGAIN PEOPLE: What did that 1 month go to show? Firstly, Sasuke can copy techniques, and most likely copied Chidori. No shit, that's kind of a free-bee. BUT, in 1 month, he attained a speed that it likely took Lee YEARS to attain. Is that cheap? No, it just shows us, that Sasuke is a very good physical specimen. He has good genetics people, get over it.

Now, Sasuke also recieved the CS from Orochimaru, and after a second sealing process, he was able to unlock and control the CS2, at the cost of throwing up blood after. Again, he nearly DIED getting the first level of it, how that is a free power-up by any means, I don't know.

In the 2 1/2 years he trained with Orochimaru, Sasuke's accomplishments are such.

-Sharigan mastery to the point where he could break Tsyukiyomi with only his Sharigan and will power
-CS mastery to the point where he could use it as good as the person who it was spawned from
-Large amounts of chidori varients he created
-The creation of Kirin
-Sword Mastery more or less
-Summon mastery

Now, when he absorbed Orochimaru, after taking advantage of him when he was weak, he got.

-Healing powers due to the whitesnake
-Increased summoning skills
-Some new jutsu

He loses Orochimaru to Itachi, and this is what happens after he watches his brother die in front of him.

-No more healing powers
-No more snakes
-No more Orochimaru jutsu
-No more cursed seal

What he gained

-MS
-Increased Chakra supply due to the CS no longer stunting his growth (Kakashi talks about this back in Part 1, excuse me for not finding the page.)

The Mangekyo Sharigan, is not something you can train. No, it takes away your eyesight and kills you if you use it to often, so obviously training it is not an option.

For what it's worth, Sasuke Tsyukiyomi is not good. He didn't suddendly become good with it.

His Ameratsu, once he learned how to use it, is awesome. Why you ask? Sasuke is perhaps the best ninja outside of Nagato when it comes to manipulating elemental chakra. He is also from the Uchiha clan, so using Fire comes natural to him. O yea, and he's a genius. So why shouldn't he be able to use Ameratsu as good as he does after only using it a few times? It's what we should except from him.

Sussano, this one is a bit tricky. Prior to the Kage Summit, Sasuke obviously knew how to somewhat use it, he even tells Juugo he wants to "try something out". Whether this implies he already tried to use it, or he knows how to since it might be engraved into him genetically, who knows.

In any event, Sasuke's usage of Sussano becomes greater and greater with each use. This again, should be no surprise given his background in ninjutsu and things like using the CS, and the fact it's part of his bloodline, and he's a genius.

Granted, was it a bit fast. Yea probably, but in hindsight, was it unreasonable compared to the rest of Sasuke's growth rate when it comes to using jutsu? No, not at all actually.

Considering Sussano is a spiritual being anchored to Sasuke, it shouldn't take him long to anchor it completely, and thus gain all of its abilities.

Then there is Sasuke's "hatred" giving him more power stamina. Since Uchiha's are known for having powerful chakra's, its no surprise that Sasuke has powerful chakra. Again, without the CS, his stamina began to increase. I can't say this isn't cheap, because it kind of is, but he still pales in chakra to characters like Kisame, Raikage, and Naruto. So this "power-up" only brings him to a level of his competition. (IMO, I believe his hatred, is actually the other half of the Kyuubi manifesting itself inside of him, but that's a topic for another thread.)

And finally, we have the Hawk. I was waiting for Sasuke to use one forever, and then he did. Is an explanation really needed for why he has something that was only used in like 4 panels? If anything Sasuke got was free, this is it.

So, to recap, Sasuke powers come from him either nearly dying to atain them, having people he loves die in front of him, years of training, or they are part of his bloodline which is a master of. So yea, I fail to see how anything aside from the Hawk, was "free".

[Weapon_X]

Delbi's post preety much sums up everything about Sasuke and his powers. It's been mentioned so many times before, Sasuke "learns " through fighting. Even in real life, you can train some type of martial arts in a little corner for years and years but how would you know how good you are in you don't enter the ring or have a fight? To learn, to progress, to get better, you have to enter a fight. People don't improve through training, they improve through fighting. That's where the real shit is, in an actual fight.

And this is what Sasuke is doing. Kishi has laid out this example so many times. Hell, even Madara says that this is the way he trains a pupil. He pits Sasuke infront of the enemy without knowing it's enemies abilities or anything and sees how Sasuke can manage. He manages very well for someone who is fighting an unknown opponent. And he manages even well by improving his fighting abilities and powers even more.

I thought this had already been explained, Sasuke simply is a genius. He is from the Uchiha clan, even as a kid he was smart. He even surprised Kakashi when he could do a Katon Jutsu.

And with Susano'o. There is no special requirements for Susano'o. Once Amaterasu and Tsukiyomi are unlocked, that's it, you get Susano'o. If anyone complains about Sasuke's Susano'o, then you might aswell complain about how Itachi obtained Susano'o. Because it's the same precedure. -_-;

[kisame123]

I thought I should take the time to clarify something that some people argue to be "free" for Sasuke. the Curse Seal did not give Sasuke any extra chakra, it instead forcibly drew out chakra from Sasuke and other users. its immediate effects would be a sudden surge of chakra which normally could not be accessible, however, it's side effects were almost always fatal as with all cases involving depleted chakra. that is why most people died after receiving the curse seal, Sasuke is one of the few survivors. it can be comparable to the Hidden Lotus gates, in which Rock Lee or Gai can forcibly draw out chakra which normally would not be acessible.

I got this from the databook II translations:


Characters:

Konoha One Hundred Leafs Collection ~ Number Twelve

| The Cursed Seal of Heaven¹ - The Cursed Seal of Earth² |

Among the Cursed Seals, the seals of Heaven and Earth hold exceptional "power". Although their actual effect and potency are not directly evident, the truth of why they were carved into Kimimaro and Sasuke is to draw out their excess "power".

[pictures of Kimimaro's and Sasuke's Cursed Seals]
→On the back of Sasuke's neck and on Kimimaro's chest, the Cursed Seal rises to the surface. They are also a symbol revealing the depth of the darkness in their hearts...

¹ Cursed Seal of Heaven (天の呪印, Ten no Juin)
² Cursed Seal of Earth (地の呪印, Chi no Juin)

http://mangahelpers.com/forums/showthread.php?t=45328
[hr]
alright, here's another one, keep them coming!

I don't see how people view the Sharingan to completely beneficial in all aspects, that's not true. as for the comparison between Sage Mode, that's laughable. let me break it down.


Sharingan supposedly has the ability to copy any jutsu as long as the hand seals are shown. this ties into its ability to see chakra and of course, read the hand seals. however, this is "copying" function, that which it was named after, is almost a dead and vestigial function. no one has shown this capability besides Kakashi and that too, was at the beginning of the series. Sasuke has shown minor skill in this reading some of Rock Lee's taijutsu moves, but nothing that makes him worthy of having that "copy" title.

the Sharingan is largely genjutsu-based doujutsu, it casts genjutsu, breaks, and even reverses genjutsu as well! it has hypnotic powers, which is used to cast its visual genjutsu. then there is the rare ability of mind control, but that is also due to the sharingan's genjutsu ability. Shisui, Madara, Danzou have shown to be able to use this power. the sharingan user essentially probes the consciousness for the victims' thoughts and suggesting false thoughts of their own. Itachi has shown the ability to do that in his genjutsu, since genjutsu usually involves probing the consciousness of the victim and playing the victims' own thoughts against them like in this case here:
-Itachi uses Naruto's guilt of failure against him
http://read.mangashare.com/Naruto/chapter-259/page014.html
http://read.mangashare.com/Naruto/chapter-259/page016.html
I do think this is perhaps this is one of the most useful abilities in the series. this is what makes the sharingan so damn cool. personally I'd love to have this power in real life. it would make life a whole lot easier! ahem, sorry.

the sharingan also has the ability to see the slightest sets of movements and tension on the body. Because of that insight, the sharingan user is able to accurately predict movements and time counter-attack accordingly. however, there's a massive problem with this ability. as shown earlier on in the series, the sharingan can allow your eyes to keep up with movements, but if your own body cannot keep up with that movement it's useless. if you have a disadvantage at speed, the sharingan will let you painfully and helplessly watch your own beating in high definition!:D Sasuke painfully watched his arse get kicked by Rock Lee! the Uchiha clan could only painfully watch themselves slowly get killed by Itachi during the night of the massacre.

also, just because you can see movements, doesn't mean that you can immediately predict the next movement. the sharingan-user has to use his own brain cells to predict, as it involves the brain's functions. the sharingan-user, himself, has to develop a strategy and the attack by using their fighting skills. there is also the issue of what you can predict, can you predict all kinds of movement? we've seen that the three-tomoe cannot predict Naruto's movements when he utilized the Kyuubi chakra since the chakra moved in a direction of its own. however, Sasuke was able to predict Killerbee's movements and even though they were mainly linear, it still suggests that you can improve your ability to predict.
http://read.mangashare.com/Naruto/chapter-413/page004.html
just as the sharingan's insight and ability to predict evolved as the number of tomoe increased, apparently you can continue to improve your sharingan through experience.

all is not loss, however, as you are only encouraged to train your taijutsu, reflexes, and speed. that is why the Uchiha were largely taijutsu-based, since their sharingan would have allowed them for close combat hand-to-hand fighting as long as their body could keep up and in order for their body to keep up, they would constantly train physically.

I think it's interesting to note the lack of armor here for the depiction of the Uchiha clan in Madara's time here:
http://read.mangashare.com/Naruto/chapter-398/page018.html
compare it to the senju clan, which were heavily armored
http://read.mangashare.com/Naruto/chapter-399/page006.html
perhaps the Uchiha clan did not find it necessary to engage in combat with armor, thanks to their sharingan. Madara is an exception, but there might be another reason for that.

nonetheless, the sharingan's ability to predict movements is not "unfair". after seeing the Mizukage who can apparently, spit acid/lava out from her breath, or Torune who's entire body is infected with nano-scale bugs, I can't imagine anybody foolish enough to fight somebody like that with taijutsu-_-; the point is, you have to go out there and fight on your own. you have to train your sharingan, your own physical abilities, or else nothing will happen and you will remain weak. Sharingan-users must risk their lives to become stronger, nothing comes easy and usually death awaits you at the end of battle.

Sage Mode, on the other hand, can allow you to survive anything except gravity! (just kidding)

Sage Mode enhances

Ninjutsu
Genjutsu (I'm willing to ignore this for Naruto, but the frogs are good)
Taijutsu: apparently fighting at DragonBall Z altitudes, suddenly became possible?
http://read.mangashare.com/Naruto/chapter-420/page002.html
speed
draws power from external natural energy
super-strength:-enough to toss summons, definitely fatal for humans
http://read.mangashare.com/Naruto/chapter-431/page006.html
enhanced durability (survivability)
-here, Naruto falls into jagged rocks and does not even have a scratch on him:
http://read.mangashare.com/Naruto/chapter-418/page006.html
Reach:gives you extra reach through natural energy, meaning you don't even have to connect your punch to the target.
http://read.mangashare.com/Naruto/chapter-431/page013.html
http://read.mangashare.com/Naruto/chapter-431/page017.html
Sensor:you become an awesome sensor ninja, Naruto was able to track Nagato
http://read.mangashare.com/Naruto/chapter-441/page013.html
NOTE: I still don't think that people realize what sensors can do. if anyone can recall, Sasuke ordered Karin, a sensor ninja, to predict Killerbee's movements and give them Killerbee's directions using her sensor abilities.
http://read.mangashare.com/Naruto/chapter-413/page007.html
of course, this was done from a distance so it is not like the sharingan which can help predict in close hand-to-hand combat, but is like a Sharingan with the Byakugan's far-sighted vision. Naruto can predict movements from a distance, which might be extremely useful for fighting against a speed demon like Sasuke.

in conclusion, Sage Mode basically enhances everything! it puts you on par with the greatest shinobi to have ever existed and greatly improves your survivability. do not misunderstand me, I love Sage Mode, it's an awesome jutsu considering the numerous benefits and effects the jutsu has. Kishimoto is a genius for thinking up something like this, just as he thought of the Rinnegan, Pain Rikudou, the Sharingan, and all other Kekkei Genkai!

[juUnior]

the Curse Seal did not give Sasuke any extra chakra, it instead forcibly drew out chakra from Sasuke and other users.
It doesn't change the fact that it "forcibly drew out chakra drom Sasuke and other users", right? If they hadn't got that, they wouldn't be able to draw so much more chakra in the first place. In some way it's a "free gift", but all in all someone needs to be able to train/control it to be able to use it properly. So I would call it even in some way.. maybe.

[Delbi]

It doesn't change the fact that it "forcibly drew out chakra drom Sasuke and other users", right? If they hadn't got that, they wouldn't be able to draw so much more chakra in the first place. In some way it's a "free gift", but all in all someone needs to be able to train/control it to be able to use it properly. So I would call it even in some way.. maybe.

This isn't really true.

We've seen Kakashi draw on all of his stamina to the point where he literally died.

Also, while fighting Danzou, Sasuke's "hatred" essentially increased his maximum stamina.

All in all, the CS is just another way to draw out chakra when you lack the skill to do so yourself. Opening the Celestial Gates is another way to do this and reach the body's limits more or less.

In any event, the CS seems to be more of a problem than a solution to anything, hence why I think Kabuto and Orochimaru never had them. I forget what chapter it was, but Kakashi even mentions that it stunts one's growth, which is certainly true in Sasuke's case as he's just as powerful, fast, and has more chakra as he was when he had the CS.

[benelori]

I voted not sure in the poll...and that's the hawk thing...the manga doesn't really show it, but there are explanations, but those are assumptions hence NOT SURE...
About the other stuff...well check out Delbi's post(the huge one)...

About the hawk...so I think the hawk contract was actually Sasuke's original contract...when did he get it...don't really care, what matters that he got it... what about the snakes then? IIRC we didn't see Sasuke actually summon a snake,except Manda, but with Oro's blood it can be done(just like Suigetsu did)...all the snake moves are related to his cursed seal, and that he absorbed Orochimaru, probably...actually Anko can do snake moves without summoning, so I guess it's just plain ninjutsu...
When he needed to summon something, he didn't summon a snake to protect him, he summoned a hawk...I guess it's pretty clear that he couldn't summon snakes in the first place, and that it was us who believed it otherwise...

[DARK]

Sasuke didn't get these power-ups as a "free gift."
In order to obtain the Mangekyo Sharingan alone, Sasuke had to fight Itachi in a life-to-death battle. He had to risk getting burned by Amaterasu, the "pain" of having his eyes gouged out of their sockets from Tsukuyomi, literally having giant snakes breaking out of his skin, etc. Hadn't it been for the Uchiha Clan being massacred in his childhood, Sasuke probably wouldn't have been entrusted with the majority of the power-ups that he has now.
And let's not forget all of the trials that Sasuke had to go through just to get this "free power." Sasuke was put in several life-or-death situations throughout the series in exchange for a momentary amount of power. His fights against Haku, Orochimaru, Gaara, and Deidara tested Sasuke's very limitations. In addition, Sasuke had to survive two trials of unconsciousness for obtaining both levels of the Cursed Seal.
In many cases, Sasuke's quest for "free power" caused many characters' deaths. Examples including the Sound Four, Kimimaro, and Manda. Sasuke personally didn't pay a hefty price for obtaining a stringe of power, but surely these characters did; with their lives.
Also these "free gifts" have some nasty side-effects. Both the use of Amaterasu and Susanoo cost Sasuke a hefty amount of chakra in addition to bleeding out of his eye. With each usage, Sasuke's eyes deteriorate. By this pont, Sasuke is nearly blind in one of his eyes.

[Ryr]

You know what are free gifts? Transplanting sharingans all over your arm and using the attached power without going through the trouble to train or fight.

Susanoo was not acquired through a simple transplant, nor was it acquired as a present from a mentor. Its many stages, from the humble skeletal frame, the partially materialized arm, to the final version similar to Itachi's was acquired progressively through combat.

To this day, there is not a major character in the entire series who has fought as many S-ranked adversaries as Sasuke.

[Poneglyph420]

There is no such thing as free gifts here.. If the latent talent and potential was there, it's simply a matter of drawing it out.
That's what I've seen up til now. I think Kakashi, Itachi, Danzou and Madara all had some clue of the power Sasuke has lying within.

So there wasn't any formal "sasuke's training arc" but shit he was born into power and the skirmishes have shown IMO he developed him.

[Eddy01741]

They're not free, but they take a hell of a lot less time to attain than naruto's "power-ups". First of all, sharingan in itself, lets Sasuke copy most any jutsu he sees, free power up there to his aresenal of jutsu.

Then we get CS, yeah, he had prove himself strong enough to not die under the process of the cursed seal, but uh... still, in a couple hours, he was alive, kicking, and stronger than ever.

Mangekyo Sharingan... quite simply, Itachi gave it to him upon dying.


Not quite free, but Sasuke doesn't have to spend anywhere near the effort or time that Naruto has to spend each time he gets a power-up.

[beasticon999]

sasuke is a acknowledged genius even b4 he activated the sharingan,he was the best in a class Naruto was in he mastered every technique he was thought.Naruto should never in his life be able to catch up with a genius like sasuke.Sasuke is of the Uchiha clan in a normal case Naruto is inadequate to be called his opponent.So the one getting the unreasonable power is Naruto.They both went training for two and a half years and Naruto wasn't a match for sasuke.

[Kabi]

sasuke is a acknowledged genius even b4 he activated the sharingan,he was the best in a class Naruto was in he mastered every technique he was thought.Naruto should never in his life be able to catch up with a genius like sasuke.Sasuke is of the Uchiha clan in a normal case Naruto is inadequate to be called his opponent.So the one getting the unreasonable power is Naruto.They both went training for two and a half years and Naruto wasn't a match for sasuke.

the only reason why naruto can catch up to sasuke and other ninja is because he works hard for it, real hard. To say naruto should not be in sasuke's level because sasuke is a genius is beyond anything but dumb. remember that although uchiha are all genius they never did become hokage or anything else because they all are stuck up jackass that believe their eyes is everything while other ninjas actually train to obtain powers. and for the 2 years sasuke was training with orochimaru, sasuke was using drugs to increase his performance which sakura stated in the manga. A genius means nothing if that person does not work something to obtain that something. someone that actually work their butt off will pass a genius no matter what especially if that genius only sits down and screams all the time(sasuke), this is the message kishi is giving to us ever seens the manga started hard work beats natural genius.

[Eddy01741]

So the protagonist and the one whom the manga is named afters hould never be able to catch up to a genius?

I thought the underlying theme of the manga is that hard work beats out natural talent (IE, Jiraiya>Oro, Lee>Sasuke at early chunin exams, Naruto>Neji, etc.).

[Kabi]

I forgot to vote lol. I pick free power up because in part 2 sasuke has not trained at all to gain susano'o, Amaterasu, and tsukiumi. At least in part 1 sasuke actually train and we can all agree he got what he trained for.

[niblack89]

Sasuke hasn't trained since Oro even then it was suggested he used medicines and other things. Are his power ups gifts yeah but he still uses skill to use them.

[Kabi]

Sasuke hasn't trained since Oro even then it was suggested he used medicines and other things. Are his power ups gifts yeah but he still uses skill to use them.

am not questioning sasuke skills because we seen what he can do, well only use past battles because last battle was a spam fest :D. sasuke is a skilled ninja but some power he has are gifts that he did not do much to obtain it.

[Rikudou King]

sasuke is a acknowledged genius even b4 he activated the sharingan,he was the best in a class Naruto was in he mastered every technique he was thought.Naruto should never in his life be able to catch up with a genius like sasuke.Sasuke is of the Uchiha clan in a normal case Naruto is inadequate to be called his opponent.So the one getting the unreasonable power is Naruto.They both went training for two and a half years and Naruto wasn't a match for sasuke. Actually, Considering Naruto has been using the Kage Bunshin cheat, Him being on Sasuke's level is perfectly understandable. Naruto has literally gain decades of experience to equal the few years of experience that Sasuke possess. While kind of pathetic for Naruto, It is a testament to Sasuke's skill.

[Eddy01741]

Right... pathetic that he mastered a jutsu that the 4th, Jiraiya, and Kakashi were unable to.

Sasuke has his sharingan too, it's not like naruto can just look at somebody perform a jutsu and do it himself.

Plus, Kage Bunshin training isn't a cheat. If naruto trains with 1000 kage bunshins, he expends 1001 (himself+1000 others) times more energy than if he trained without kage bunshins. Sasuke on the other hand, with his sharingan, spends no effort to copy jutsu while just looking at them.

[M3J]

I forgot to vote lol. I pick free power up because in part 2 sasuke has not trained at all to gain susano'o, Amaterasu, and tsukiumi. At least in part 1 sasuke actually train and we can all agree he got what he trained for.
He did train to get susano'o, amaterasu, and tsukiyomi. He fought against Killerbee and the kage. Remember, he wasn't as proficient with any of his Mangekyou Sharingan jutsu when he first used them. And even with Mangekyou Sharingan jutsu, it still didn't help him survive against Killerbee or beat him one on one, or be able to beat the kage. You can't exactly train for Mangekyou Sharingan jutsu since using it quickens the blinding; being put in battle is the only way to train, I think. Maybe it was same for Itachi too.


the only reason why naruto can catch up to sasuke and other ninja is because he works hard for it, real hard. To say naruto should not be in sasuke's level because sasuke is a genius is beyond anything but dumb. remember that although uchiha are all genius they never did become hokage or anything else because they all are stuck up jackass that believe their eyes is everything while other ninjas actually train to obtain powers. and for the 2 years sasuke was training with orochimaru, sasuke was using drugs to increase his performance which sakura stated in the manga. A genius means nothing if that person does not work something to obtain that something. someone that actually work their butt off will pass a genius no matter what especially if that genius only sits down and screams all the time(sasuke), this is the message kishi is giving to us ever seens the manga started hard work beats natural genius.
Sasuke does work hard though, that cannot be denied. We saw him work hard in Part I and to some extent in Part II. And the reason why Uchiha didn't become hokage was probably because there were more exceptional shinobi than them. And once again, how do we know Uchiha doesn't train to obtain power? Almost all of them have.
And there's no proof he was using drugs. Sakura was guessing at how Sasuke improved dramatically. Sasuke is a genius, yes, but he also works hard.


Right... pathetic that he mastered a jutsu that the 4th, Jiraiya, and Kakashi were unable to.

Sasuke has his sharingan too, it's not like naruto can just look at somebody perform a jutsu and do it himself.

Plus, Kage Bunshin training isn't a cheat. If naruto trains with 1000 kage bunshins, he expends 1001 (himself+1000 others) times more energy than if he trained without kage bunshins. Sasuke on the other hand, with his sharingan, spends no effort to copy jutsu while just looking at them.

Actually, Naruto did, in a way. Uzumaki Naruto rendan? And rasengan!
I don't think Sasuke can exactly perform a jutsu. We haven't seen him copy jutsu much, or use it anyway. Exceptions are chidori, Rock Lee's kick, and his taijutsu style.
And there is effort. He has to think of how to do it as well as use chakra. :s

[Eddy01741]

Naruto did copy the Sasuke's combo combo (which Sasuke himself copied from Rock Lee's upwards kick), but still, Naruto simply doesn't have the innate ability to copy movements and jutsu on sight. Rock lee worked super hard to attain his speed, how did Sasuke get comparable speed? Kakashi copied the movements with his sharingan, and it would be fair to assume that Sasuke did the same with Sasuke.


And the rasengan.... well, he got inspiration from a cat, but that's not watching somebody perform the jutsu and copying it, plus he worked like a dog that whole week to use rasengan. When Naruto used the full rasengan for the first time, he had no idea whether it would work, by the time we saw Sasuke use it vs. Gaara, it was clear he had used it many times before (the flashback to chidori training, and how he could only use 2 a day or else he would put himself at risk).

[TeAm#7FoReVer]

the only reason why naruto can catch up to sasuke and other ninja is because he works hard for it, real hard. To say naruto should not be in sasuke's level because sasuke is a genius is beyond anything but dumb.remember that although uchiha are all genius they never did become hokage or anything else because they all are stuck up jackass that believe their eyes is everything while other ninjas actually train to obtain powers. and for the 2 years sasuke was training with orochimaru, sasuke was using drugs to increase his performance which sakura stated in the manga. A genius means nothing if that person does not work something to obtain that something. someone that actually work their butt off will pass a genius no matter what especially if that genius only sits down and screams all the time(sasuke), this is the message kishi is giving to us ever seens the manga started hard work beats natural genius.

Naruto and Sasuke both deserve to be in the place they are, they gained power they have with their own ways. Naruto with his clones and Sasuke with his sharingan. They just use what they have in handy, it would be stupid from them to do not it. I do not know what is the problem.

Uchiha never became Hokage because Senju didnt allow them to do it. Furthermore, there is no proof that all the Uchihas didnt train. Even though Itachi was a genius, he trained and Sasuke too when he learned the Katon jutsu. Another thing, Obito was an Uchiha and even so he didnt show any feats during the mission with Minato; while Sasuke since he was little, he was always on the top (before and after he obtained the sharingan) and showed in the missions with Team 7 what he was made of.

There is not proof that Sasuke used drugs to increase his skills. Sakura just said that according to Tsunade it is POSSIBLE (http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/311/16/) that Sasuke has used drugs. It is not confirmed by anybody. I dont think he did it, he rejected the methods Oro used to obtain power and immortality (http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/344/04/), but this is only my opinion. Nobody (except Sasuke and Kabuto) knows 100% about what happened during those 2 years.

Sasuke worked hard to have excellent grades, he worked hard in his shurinken training, he practiced so hard to learn Katon, he trained one month to learn chidori and to improve his speed and taijutsu skills. The curse seal, he was able to handle it at his will until Part II and the MS, he ¨killed¨ his brother with his own skills and he did a good performance. Since then he trained his MS fighting S-rank ninjas until now that he almost gets completely blind.

Recently, he has screamed in 5 or 6 chapters so that is not ¨all the time¨. Naruto always screams :p.

[Rikudou King]

Right... pathetic that he mastered a jutsu that the 4th, Jiraiya, and Kakashi were unable to. It's pathetic that Naruto needed the short cut of cramming decades into mere weeks in order to match Sasuke's level of growth. Also, Considering the only reason Minato, Jiraiya, And Kakashi couldn't do it was merely because they lack the necessary element, It's not that great of an accomplishment.


Sasuke has his sharingan too, it's not like naruto can just look at somebody perform a jutsu and do it himself. The Sharingan requires more then just seeing a technique performed. Even when Sasuke copied Lee's moves, He still needed to train to master it. Not to mention the right element is needed to be known.


Plus, Kage Bunshin training isn't a cheat. If naruto trains with 1000 kage bunshins, he expends 1001 (himself+1000 others) times more energy than if he trained without kage bunshins. Sasuke on the other hand, with his sharingan, spends no effort to copy jutsu while just looking at them. First off, Sasuke has never just copied a technique and began using it. The only time he has ever used the copying ability of the Sharingan was on Lee's moves to create his own personal technique and possibly the Chidori, Which still required some training. In all fairness, Kakashi has been the only person to make use of that ability to copy multiple techniques. Anyway, The Kage Bunshin trick is a cheat. It's a trick that only Naruto can do and was never mentioned until Naruto needed a quick way to train, Even though characters have been using it since the beginning of the series. Worst part is that Naruto shouldn't even needed it. He mastered summoning and the Rasengan without relying on much help, Not to mention the Kage Bunshin technique by himself.

[Eddy01741]

When was it stated that wind was the only element that could fuse with rasengan? Rasengan in itself was designed to be combined with an element (not a specific one, but just elements in general) to become basically an ultimate ninjutsu.

Really, so when Sasuke copied Rock Lee's little upward kick taijutsu, he needed practice? He just pulled it out of nowhere.

You call kage bunshin training a trick? It's merely putting Narutos massive chakra supply to use. Put it this way, if Naruto trained by himself for like... 12 hours a day (wake up, eat, train, eat, train, eat, train, sleep), he would use a miniscule fraction of the chakra he has, it would be far slower than he could train. And KB training is not limited to Naruto alone, anybody can do it (if you wanted to reduce that 12 hour training session to a 6 hour training session, make a KB and train), it's just that nobody thought of the idea til Kakashi mentioned it.

Plus, Sasuke hasn't shown directly that he's copied jutsu, but he has the capability to do so, as any sharingan user does, which is far more than Naruto has.

Lastly, Naruto's "cheat" (which really isn't a cheat at all) requires naruto to put in that much more effort into his training, fact is, at the end of the day, Sasuke could go watch a bunch of shinobi battle and learn a good number of jutsu just from observation, while Naruto, even with accelerated training, still has to put the same amount of effort that any shinobi with the same aptitude as him would need to use, he is just able to compress all that effort into a shorter timespan due to his massive chakra.


To get back to this thread, Naruto isn't cheating isnce everything he trains for he puts in 110% effort for, Sasuke on the other hand... well, since he's an uchiha, he gets sharingan, sharingan gives him a myriad of really useful abilities, also gets CS, and CS2, then gets MS handed down by his brother, and is going to get EMS since his brother planned on dying and since Madara preserved the eyes. I'd say Sasuke definitely has the most free gifts.

And I don't want to seem like I'm whining that Sasuke gets free stuff, that's just the way the manga goes, as it is a theme throughout the manga that hard work will beat out natural talent in the end. So while it does seem unfair, in the end it just makes Naruto's achievements look that much more impressive knowing how achieved them and the background that he grew up in.

[Delbi]

Sasuke's copying of Lee's technique didn't mean shit until he trained his body to attain Lee's speed.

Sasuke was able to in a month, attain the speed Lee had when it took Lee years. This goes to show that not only is Sasuke's brain very good, but so is his body. The Sharigan can't magically make your body become stronger and faster, Sasuke did that all on his own.

Also, Sasuke's achievements are only as good as Sasuke makes them. Sasuke's skill and natural talent make him so good, after all, a tool is only as good as it's user.

Not to mention, Sasuke also trains just as hard as Naruto, he's proved this on several different occasions.

In any event, we talk about Sasuke getting free gifts, but Naruto has the second most powerful entity ever sleeping inside of his stomach. Where Sasuke has the Sharigan, Naruto has the Kyuubi. Only difference is, Sasuke is more skilled with the Sharigan than Naruto is with the Kyuubi.

[Eddy01741]

Sharingan helped Sasuke in spades for gaining Lee's speed. Kakashi copied Lee's speed, Sasuke copied Kakashi.

We havn't seen Sasuke train since he was with Oro (he was slaughtering those sound ninjas), we definitely have not seen him pass out from exhaustion from training, nor staying up all night to train.

Sasuke has sharingan, and CS, and MS, and eventually will have EMS, and he uses (/used) all of those to his advantage. Naruto has just Kyuubi, and he absolutely refuses to let Kyuubi help him.

Again, underlying theme of the manga showing through here. Naruto possess great power in Kyuubi yet refuses to use it so he can prove that he himself is powerful through hard work.

[Ryr]

We havn't seen Sasuke train since he was with Oro (he was slaughtering those sound ninjas), we definitely have not seen him pass out from exhaustion from training, nor staying up all night to train.


There, I highlighted the wrong conception in the above quote.

You actually think that training in a safe and controlled environment is superior to actual combat? You can train for all eternity but may still fight pathetically when facing actual enemies. You can have all the power in your palms (or arm LOL) but still suck at using them, aka Danzou style.

Sasuke doesn't train because he has been fighting continuously in actual combat since the beginning of part2. And fighting S-ranked opponents is simply a better way to sharpen your skills compared to training with your mentor, because your mentor obviously would not go all-out against you.

[kantri1]

Every uchiha has an advantage bcoz of their eyes.They have been getting free power-ups ever since the birth of their clan so this is nothing new.

[Ryr]

Every uchiha has an advantage bcoz of their eyes.They have been getting free power-ups ever since the birth of their clan so this is nothing new.

So does every single ninja in the series. All ninjas born in any clan would receive something special from their clans, be it a bloodline limit (Uchina, Hyuga, Terumi), or specific skills unique to their clans (Aburame, Yamanaka), or even special items (Akimichi's coloured pills).

It's how you harness the potency of your given tools that counts. You can give a sharingan to Shikamaru but it's unlikely that he would get Susanoo since he's the type who likes to avoid conflicts.

Saying that a ninja would become powerful simply because he had the potential is like saying a country rich in natural resources would develop a global economy. Which is, of course, ridiculous. Since this is a Naruto forum, the country from which Naruto originates had neither the natural resource nor the manpower, yet it has the third largest economy in the world. Miracle? No, it's brains (ingenuity) and brawn (hard work).

[Rikudou King]

When was it stated that wind was the only element that could fuse with rasengan? Rasengan in itself was designed to be combined with an element (not a specific one, but just elements in general) to become basically an ultimate ninjutsu. It was heavy implied that wind was the only element that can be fused by how impressed that Kakashi was with Naruto making the simple Fuuton Rasengan.


Really, so when Sasuke copied Rock Lee's little upward kick taijutsu, he needed practice? He just pulled it out of nowhere. Of course he didn't need to train for a kick. But that was just a kick. The Sharingan wasn't required to copy it, Considering Naruto was able to do the same.


You call kage bunshin training a trick? It's merely putting Narutos massive chakra supply to use. Put it this way, if Naruto trained by himself for like... 12 hours a day (wake up, eat, train, eat, train, eat, train, sleep), he would use a miniscule fraction of the chakra he has, it would be far slower than he could train. And KB training is not limited to Naruto alone, anybody can do it (if you wanted to reduce that 12 hour training session to a 6 hour training session, make a KB and train), it's just that nobody thought of the idea til Kakashi mentioned it. Except that his past training has shown that Naruto can use up much of his chakra training, So doing it the way he did in the past would have been the same results. The specific reason I called it a trick is as I said before, Naruto never need something like it to train before. It was only introduced when Naruto needed to speed up his training and dump a bunch of it in a little time. As for nobody thinking of it, That's ridicules. We've seen multiple people using it and none of them ever mention anything about gained experience, Much less it as a way to train fast.


Plus, Sasuke hasn't shown directly that he's copied jutsu, but he has the capability to do so, as any sharingan user does, which is far more than Naruto has. But having the capability is much different then actually doing it. You can't fault Sasuke for having the ability to copy a technique if he has never actually copied a technique.


Lastly, Naruto's "cheat" (which really isn't a cheat at all) requires naruto to put in that much more effort into his training, fact is, at the end of the day, Sasuke could go watch a bunch of shinobi battle and learn a good number of jutsu just from observation, while Naruto, even with accelerated training, still has to put the same amount of effort that any shinobi with the same aptitude as him would need to use, he is just able to compress all that effort into a shorter timespan due to his massive chakra. That's not how it works at all. Aside from needing the right chakra element to use the techniques, He would still need to train to use them. Naruto isn't putting in any more effort then he would be doing on his own. The only difference is that using the Kage Bunshin makes multiple Naruto's to circumvent it in a shorter time.

To get back to this thread, Naruto isn't cheating isnce everything he trains for he puts in 110% effort for, Sasuke on the other hand... well, since he's an uchiha, he gets sharingan, sharingan gives him a myriad of really useful abilities, also gets CS, and CS2, then gets MS handed down by his brother, and is going to get EMS since his brother planned on dying and since Madara preserved the eyes. I'd say Sasuke definitely has the most free gifts.

And I don't want to seem like I'm whining that Sasuke gets free stuff, that's just the way the manga goes, as it is a theme throughout the manga that hard work will beat out natural talent in the end. So while it does seem unfair, in the end it just makes Naruto's achievements look that much more impressive knowing how achieved them and the background that he grew up in. What about Sage Mode? Naruto completed only a week training and became naturally better then Jiraiya who had years of training. Even as a Uchiha, Sasuke was training to be stronger. His Sharingan and CS abilities both needed to be trained with in order for him to get better with them. Sasuke took alot of pain in order to get strong enough to challenge Itachi and get MS, And he has pushed himself to the point death fighting strong opponents before he choose to implant the EMS.

The problem with the hard work vs natural talent argument is that both Neji and Sasuke have been shown training just as hard as Naruto and Lee have done. None of the people with "natural talent' have been shown to just be automatically able to do something. And Naruto's achievements have gone out the window since he became the Child of Prophecy in Part 2 and things have just went his way. He's working less hard then he did in Part 1.

[Kabi]

MJC post -"Sasuke does work hard though, that cannot be denied. We saw him work hard in Part I and to some extent in Part II. And the reason why Uchiha didn't become hokage was probably because there were more exceptional shinobi than them. And once again, how do we know Uchiha doesn't train to obtain power? Almost all of them have.
And there's no proof he was using drugs. Sakura was guessing at how Sasuke improved dramatically. Sasuke is a genius, yes, but he also works hard.:s[/QUOTE]"

I never said sasuke didn't train in part 1, he was always training in part 1 but its part 2 that bothers me. In part 2 most of sasuke's moves does not require him to train much to gain perfection thats what bothers me. I really don't know much of MS because this is very new in the manga so we need more time to find out more but it seems blindness can be fix very quick and simple :notrust.

MJC post - "Actually, Naruto did, in a way. Uzumaki Naruto rendan? And rasengan!
I don't think Sasuke can exactly perform a jutsu. We haven't seen him copy jutsu much, or use it anyway. Exceptions are chidori, Rock Lee's kick, and his taijutsu style.
And there is effort. He has to think of how to do it as well as use chakra. :s[/QUOTE]"

yes naruto did copy some of sasuke moves, all shinobi copy or get an idea from someone else. look at kakashi, he must of been sued million of times for coping other peoples work. kakashi is the biggest fraud in the manga come on his nickname is copy ninja and he gets his ass handed to him in every fight :eyeroll, lol not bashing kakashi still love his character just making fun of him. but the point that am arguing is for training before mastering a jutsu i want sasuke to train to gain a mastery of a jutsu like naruto, lee, naji and etc.

[Natoma]

To this day, there is not a major character in the entire series who has fought as many S-ranked adversaries as Sasuke.

Sasuke S-Rank Fights:

Itachi
Deidara
Orochimaru
Raikage
Danzou

Naruto S-Rank Fights:

Itachi (clone)
Deidara
Orochimaru (4-tails)
Gaara (pt 1)
Pain (and let's be fair here, you know this counts as more than 1. ;))

[jdw]

I think that Sasuke does train very hard for certain things. He probably trained hard for his Raiton, Katon, speed, Kunai skills, etc. Sasuke is a brilliant technician. When it comes to his Sharingan and MS related abilities, there isn't really any training. He just awakens them under emotional circumstances and instantly levels them up right after awakening them, with little to no difficulty or effort.

[jdw]

the manga (in other words Kishimoto) says different:

"A sharingan that can activate even susanoo is a rarity... I wouldn't want to let a nice pair of eyes like that slip through my fingers.

In fact, I wanted to give him the opportunity to train them up further in combat with the five kages, it was I who sent him here."
http://read.mangashare.com/Naruto/chapter-467/page009.html


[....]He just awakens them under emotional circumstances and instantly levels them up right after awakening them, with little to no difficulty or effort.

That isn't the same as saying absolutely zero effort. My comparison goes from hard training for some things to little to no effort for others.

[insid3rkill3r]

Sasuke has trained very hard, Kyuubi has used Kyuubi to explain it when he said : you must have worked hard to become that powerful, - When he saw him into Naruto

As for after Itachi arc , In Sasuke's case, he has trained his abilities by fighting oponents that would give him a really hard time aka Bee and Raikage, and then Danzo.

There is a reason why Kishi made Madara say -

You're overdoing it in testing out ur abilities

This is Sasuke's training, this is how he is learning to use his MS

This is what the concept of genius is, learning on the spot and using it to its best.

That is why Sasuke had the POTENTIAL to awake the MS, because he will make quick use of it, because he is a genius,

What would be the point of making the MS so hard to learn when it kills ur sight, Sasuke who made quick use of it JUST mastered Susano completly and went blind right away.

MS cant be trained, it wouldnt make sense, thats why only the genius of the Uchiha are able to awake it, because they are that great. (Lets not forget Kakashi too).

The only Free power up Sasuke has got was the CS,, simply because it came from an outside source and had nothing to do with his own skillz,

Same for Kyuubi.


In this manga, Kekkei genkai or not,nearly every ninja has something particular and unique when they are born, From Sharingan, to Chakra.


Look at Raikage,, the guy has a fucking chakra pool of a bijuu making able to move at the freaking speed of light, Naruto has as well an immense chakra pool, tho part of it is due to Kyuubi, Kisame as an enormous chakra pool, and the first hokage not only had Mokuton but was able to control bijuus somehow.

Thats how the manga is, as for Sasuke's 'free' power ups, thats freaking bullshit. The kid got the MS because he had the potential to awake it because he is a genius,


Kishi made it clear,,, Genius are fast at learning and gets things in control much faster than most,

that doesnt mean they dont work hard,, they clearly do , and that is why they surpass all the others,

For instance, i think kishi showed us with the databooks what he meant by genius,

Look at the databook 3, Itachi who is 21yo, sick as hell (2.5 stamina) has achieved as much of his potential (35.5 overall stats) as both Oro and Jiraiya (35.5 as well) who are both 30+ years older than him.

He had made it clear what he meant by genius imo.


Curse seal is a 'free power up' , Kyuubi is a free power up,

nothing more, nothing less.

[hakuthehedgehog]

I don't like the MS power ups because they are extremely powerful and happen on battle.
Seriously, it happens on battle, which makes it extremely broken because you get instantly stronger in one second.

Kishi should've made the MS so that it could only be used 3 times in a battle, and remove the blinding effect, which whould make it more managable, since there whouldn't be any spamming of high level techniques.

While the normal sharingan variation also made you instantly stronger, it is nothing compared to summoning an almost invicible warrior with light speed arrows.
I'm not saying it is a free power-up, I'm just saying it is annoying and kinda cheap IMO.
With the MS, you just have to go emo and pwn the shit out of your oponent.

[jdw]

I don't like the MS power ups because they are extremely powerful and happen on battle.
Seriously, it happens on battle, which makes it extremely broken because you get instantly stronger in one second.

Kishi should've made the MS so that it could only be used 3 times in a battle, and remove the blinding effect, which whould make it more managable, since there whouldn't be any spamming of high level techniques.

While the normal sharingan variation also made you instantly stronger, it is nothing compared to summoning an almost invicible warrior with light speed arrows.
I'm not saying it is a free power-up, I'm just saying it is annoying and kinda cheap IMO.
With the MS, you just have to go emo and pwn the shit out of your oponent.

Personally, I thought it was absurd for Sasuke to go from Susanoo riblet edition to the skeleton edition in a matter of seconds/minutes, then from Skeleton edition to archer edition with nothing really happening in between, then from Archer to bodysuit Susanoo a few minutes later. In all, he went from no Susanoo at all to complete Susanoo archer/then bodysuit in what seems like less than one day, and probably a total of like 5-10 minutes of actual usage. I see it this way, on a scale of 0-100, with zero being little effort and 100 being the most:

Sasuke training for Raiton/Katon/Speed/Kunai/Sword skills: probably between 80-100.
Sasuke training for Sharingan/MS jutsu: 0-2.

[insid3rkill3r]

Thats how the MS is, it makes u go blind, it cannot take months of practice.

Thats why only genius among the Uchiha were able to awake it. Sasuke is a genius, and hes good at using his tools , thats all there is to it, Hate ir or like it, that is how it is.


I dont see anybody complaining about Naruto surpassing Jiraiya's imcomplete sage mode in a few days at most,, when it took the gutsy old man 30 years or so to get it to that point. Seriously just stop.

[kkck]

I agree, if sasuke was not the genious he has been said to be since the very beginning of the series he would not be capable of using MS. It's only because of his extremely fast learning capacities along with talent that he can use MS and susanoo to the extreme he has been shown using.

[jdw]

Thats how the MS is, it makes u go blind, it cannot take months of practice.

Thats why only genius among the Uchiha were able to awake it. Sasuke is a genius, and hes good at using his tools , thats all there is to it, Hate ir or like it, that is how it is.


I dont see anybody complaining about Naruto surpassing Jiraiya's imcomplete sage mode in a few days at most,, when it took the gutsy old man 30 years or so to get it to that point. Seriously just stop.
People can complain about it, but this thread isn't designed for that. Saying that Naruto got something easily doesn't make Sasuke's any more difficult, does it? Also, we do not know how much Jiraiya trained sage mode, or if chakra capacity affects the ability to master it, or any other variables, etc, so imo it is hard to make comparisons.

[jdw]

so it's completely fair for Naruto to be genetically "good" at all kinds ninjutsu, taijutsu, genjutsu? I suppose it's okay if he's supposed to learn everything since it's in his blood right? cut the bullshit, I'm starting to realize that Sasuke has even worked harder for his powers than Naruto has.

if there's anything Kishimoto has failed to do, it's drawing the line between genius and hardworking ninja. Naruto and Rock Lee can cry all day because they have a hard time, mostly due to their own stupidity, and because girls don't chase after them. however, the fact remains that Neji and Sasuke work their asses off.


the manga (in other words Kishimoto) says different:

"A sharingan that can activate even susanoo is a rarity... I wouldn't want to let a nice pair of eyes like that slip through my fingers.

In fact, I wanted to give him the opportunity to train them up further in combat with the five kages, it was I who sent him here."
http://read.mangashare.com/Naruto/chapter-467/page009.html


it's not "little" at all, it's an incredible feat, as Madara clearly said, any eye that can activate susanoo is a "rarity". if the manga defines Sasuke as a genius, just because it portrays him to learn faster than most others, doesn't necessarily equate to being easier for him. if you look take a deep look at how this manga has portrayed Sasuke's evolution as a shinobi, you can clearly see the Mangekyou has been more harder to master for Sasuke than any other jutsu he has learned.


aside from the points made in my arguments below, I'm starting to consider the possibility that at least a day has passed by between the Kage fight and Danzou. for one, we know that the kage fight occurs right after Team Suicide sets out to kill Sasuke. it would have taken them some time to reach the country, since according to our previous knowledge of maps from Part I, the countries we are seeing right now like the Samurai country weren't anywhere near the Fire Country.

Keep in mind the Sand Village took a few days to reach and yet, it's still visible on the small scale of the map we've seen so far. the Samurai country isn't anywhere in the small map, it's very possible that it takes a few days journey to reach it. what I'm saying is that Sasuke most likely fought Danzou quite a bit after the Kage fight. Madara can teleport anywhere, however, I'm using Team Suicide's travel time as an measurement to determine the amount of time that has passed. if you compare this to time spent on mastering Sage Mode, which clearly defines a night, you'll see that Sage Mode probably didn't even take a week.

to answer this, I'm going to repost. I'm sure you can remember this from somewhere?


that's not really true, the Killerbee fight happened a while ago and at least one technique (perhaps two) was used at that time. even then, amaterasu was uncontrolled. the Kage fight came much later on when Sasuke would have gotten the hang or feel of the doujutsu. we can't give an exact figure on minutes, there's no conclusive proof as to how long it took for each move to happen. however, all the fighting that has taken place gives us the satisfaction that it has taken time for the techniques to perfected.

there have been a good 45 chapters in between both fights so we know that his growth has been consistent and evenly spread out. then there were about another fifteen chapters until Danzou in which the final technique-which was drawn out earlier-was perfected. last but not least, tsukuyomi has still not been perfected yet and was even commented on by Danzou. nonetheless, Madara clearly considers this to be one big training exercise.

a simpler way of explaining:

tsukuyomi (was/wasn't) used before Killerbee. amaterasu was unleashed but uncontrolled on Killerbee. (Chapters 410-415) this is confirmed to be a while before the Kage fight.
amaterasu is perfected and controlled in the Kage fight. susanoo is activated during the fight, but wasn't perfected. it's important to note that amount of times, susanoo is drawn out. it was drawn out and retracted about two times (or more). this was from Chapters 463-466.
susanoo is perfected in Danzou fight. again, it's important to note that it was partially drawn out in the beginning (which even you commented on, suggesting "mastery" over it) (Chapters 476-478).
tsukuyomi still hasn't been perfected yet, it's even been mocked in the manga. it will be perfected at another time.

let's not forget, these are only three techniques. I'm also going to take SenninSage's idea, Sasuke's regular sharingan has taken years to evolve. he first awakened a one-tomoe Sharingan after the massacre. soon there were unequal sets of tomoes, but two-tomoe, years later against Haku. the three-tomoe sharingan was awakened during the fight at Valley of the End against Naruto. this process took about four years.

as for Sage Mode, I think it's clear that there had only been a few nights until it had been mastered. in other words, Naruto mastered in only days, what his own Sensei couldn't in fifty years. there wasn't even any explanation for how his Rasenshuriken was able to be thrown, although there are usually explanations of how his techniques work. for example, the Rasengan was clearly described, its training methods, its formation, its applications, etc. I consider this to be an actual case of "plot-no-jutsu", considering the fact that this is the main character we're talking about who is supposed to have training sessions on screen. it's rushed by manga standards, what has been set for the main character when he trained to master the Rasengan.

nonetheless, I'm thinking it's pointless to argue this further. some people will continue to think that you should train the Mangekyou by staring into a chalkboard for a few days. it wouldn't matter if Sasuke needs a prescription for eyeglasses, it would only be consistent then. of course, if we were to see that training session, it would be considered "too much Sasuke".


it wasn't "minutes" after. there was a lot of time and remember, a battle, even if it may only take seconds, feels like days. we seem to have forgotten that battles are the best way to train because they bring experience. the last time I can remember such a battle was when Kakashi fought Zabuza. my point, however, is to take a look at how this development was spread out the course of many chapters, it's been about 70 chapters!

I've already pointed at that out in the bulleted points, that was one collossal fight against four kage level opponents, and even then as I mentioned there were difficulties. susanoo was drawn out and retracted at least two times and even then, Sasuke clearly stated that it was difficult and even painful process.

"Every cell in my body hurts... is this the risk that using susanoo carries?

I haven't even perfected it yet and it still hurts this much..."
http://read.mangashare.com/Naruto/chapter-466/page005.html

this was clear for everyone to read in the manga, it clearly states that some training and time is involved. if the Kishimoto is screaming this out for everyone to see, I don't see how anyone cannot be satisfied after reading that line. in this Kage fight, one technique was used for the first time while another was only the same technique used earlier, except in creative way. the next fight, which you state is still taking place on the same day although an unspecified amount of time later, the last technique which was used earlier was perfected and even still it is missing some items. in that same fight, tsukuyomi was openly stated to have been imperfect.

I am not saying that Sasuke did not train at all. I am saying the training was minimal to the point of being training in name only.

As for Sasuke not extensively training Mangekyou because of the blindness limitation, I don't blame him. I blame Kishi for making it such a cheap set of abilities. I think there are ways Kishi could have made MS less cheap, but this is what he opted for. When he needs to work hard, Sasuke does indeed work hard, imo.

I think it is disingenuous to say that MS has been the hardest for Sasuke to master overall. Obtaining MS was simply an emotional affair. While it tugs at the heart, it wasn't "difficult" in the sense that Sasuke had to work for it. I will operate on the assumption that we have seen all of Sasuke's actual serious fights in the time since he obtained MS. This may be a faulty assumption, but just go with me for a minute.


Amaterasu: Sasuke used his own Amaterasu against Bee (once I believe). It took him 2-3 seconds to use the techniques in my estimation. He then turned it off a few seconds later. At the Kage Summit, he used Amaterasu a few times amounting for a few seconds here and there. Shortly after, he mastered it to the point where he could make spikey formations and wonderfully control spheres of black flames. The total amount of time from acquisition to master in terms of actual usage: 2 minutes.
Susanoo: Awakened at the Kage Summit. Used riblets a few times for a minute or so, etc. Shortly after leveled up to Skeleton. Used riblet again, tried skeleton. Left Kage summit and used it against Danzou and got the complete edition then bodysuit Susanoo. Total time from acquisition to mastert in terms of actual usage: 5-15 minutes (if we are being generous people).


If we have seen all of Sasuke's fights, (maybe we have not!) and we assume he did not stare at chalkboards to train MS, it cannot be said that he spent serious amounts of time of usage (training I guess we'll call it) climbing up from MS newbie to MS master of these techniques.

I respect your position on these matters and just think that we disagree with each other on the topic. No harm no foul.

[insid3rkill3r]

I dont think its matter of MS being cheap or not, its simply the fact that this legendary doujutsu is only meant to be used by ones of a kind, and no one else.

Kishi is simply showing what is his concept of genius and how they get things done.

Some ppl just dont like the Uchiha and i have nothing against that, but Kishi wanted them to be one of the 2 strongest clan,, and he did it this way, and we are now following Sasuke being a genius among the Uchiha developping his skills and using his tools to an extant that only a very few perhaps had the potential to do.

Same goes for Naruto, wether u think Sage mode might have been different for Jiraiya because he doesnt have as much chakra, Pa frog still commented how Naruto was performing extremely well and even better than Jiraiya in barely a day or 2 of training,, which could suggest that Naruto was the only reason why he was so good and chakra didnt matter that much, since sage mode pretty much is all about focus and standing still. Who knows im just giving my 2cents on that.

Anyways, i could agree on the fact the CS as well as the EMS are somewhat easily obtained and somewhat free but at the same, EMS is obtainable only because Sasuke was strong enough to get the MS in the first place.

Other than that, Naruto and Sasuke are rivals, both born with somewhat of an advantage (Huge chakra pool, Kyuubi, Sharingan) and the desire to become strong as well as the potential to be, and i think things are fairly done overall.

[Delbi]

Sharingan helped Sasuke in spades for gaining Lee's speed. Kakashi copied Lee's speed, Sasuke copied Kakashi.

We havn't seen Sasuke train since he was with Oro (he was slaughtering those sound ninjas), we definitely have not seen him pass out from exhaustion from training, nor staying up all night to train.

Sasuke has sharingan, and CS, and MS, and eventually will have EMS, and he uses (/used) all of those to his advantage. Naruto has just Kyuubi, and he absolutely refuses to let Kyuubi help him.

Again, underlying theme of the manga showing through here. Naruto possess great power in Kyuubi yet refuses to use it so he can prove that he himself is powerful through hard work.

You can't copy speed. Sasuke copied his movements, then trained to attain his speed.

Sasuke literally spend two and half years, day in and day out training, it shows, look at the improvements he made from Part 1 to the beginning of Part 2. It would be stupid for him to start training again now.

Also, Sasuke no longer has the CS, and for what it's worth, it hindered his progress more than it helped, Kakashi even mentioned it would stunt his growth.

As for Naruto, tell me one fight were he didn't use the Kyuubi to win.

Vs. Neji he needed the Kyuubi to unblock his chakra pathways.
Vs. Kakazu, he needed the Kyuubi's chakra so he could perfrom FRS 3 times since his own limit was only two.
Vs. Pain the Kyuubi bailed him out big time. Naruto by himself was not powerful enough to beat these people.

And as it stands, without the Kyuubi, Naruto stands a snowballs chance in hell of defeating Sasuke. He needs the Kyuubi and its power.

Jiraiya wanted Naruto to use the Kyuubi, and so did his father. Naruto has since realized this and is beginning to embrace the Kyuubi's powers, just like he did when he confronted Nagato.
[hr]

If we have seen all of Sasuke's fights, (maybe we have not!) and we assume he did not stare at chalkboards to train MS, it cannot be said that he spent serious amounts of time of usage (training I guess we'll call it) climbing up from MS newbie to MS master of these techniques.


This is were the concept of Sasuke's genius comes into play though. He observed his brother use all three techniques, and he then used them. He doesn't need to spend hours or days training, because he understood how it worked more or less the first time he used them.

Ameratsu and Tsyukiyomi IMO, both require skill more or less.

Sussano however is a bit different. It would seem it's "power" must be awakened. That's not to say it doesn't require skill however. Partial transformations, and perhaps Sasuke molding his chakra to make a bow and arrow all take skill. But the actual progress of Sussano changing has to do with Sasuke's "hatred" I'm guessing. IMO, that is the only "cheap" part of his MS abilities, the fact that Sussano developed the way it did. On the flip side though, perhaps that is perfectly normal, and Itachi's evolved in the same manner.

[jdw]

As for Naruto, tell me one fight were he didn't use the Kyuubi to win.

Here you go, as requested. One fight where Naruto did not use Kyuubi to win:

http://img6.imageshack.us/img6/9299/99722968.jpg
http://img294.imageshack.us/img294/6130/96281229.jpg

And even if you choose to drag Kyuubi into things, 487 chapters into the manga, and 10 actual human years, and Naruto still has not mastered Kyuubi. I am not saying he doesn't get any Kyuubi benefits, but comparing it to Sasuke's instant mastery of stuff is a waste of time.

[Delbi]

Here you go, as requested. One fight where Naruto did not use Kyuubi to win:

http://img6.imageshack.us/img6/9299/99722968.jpg
http://img294.imageshack.us/img294/6130/96281229.jpg

And even if you choose to drag Kyuubi into things, 487 chapters into the manga, and 10 actual human years, and Naruto still has not mastered Kyuubi. I am not saying he doesn't get any Kyuubi benefits, but comparing it to Sasuke's instant mastery of stuff is a waste of time.

I should have rephrased myself, when hasn't Naruto used the Kyuubi in a fight with an actual opponent who isn't fodder. He never has. And for what it's worth, he only one that fight because he farted in Kiba's face lol.

In any event, Naruto greatly benefits from the Kyuubi. The fact that it gave him the ability to cram years of training into three days goes to show how valuable an asset it is. Not to mention it saves his life whenever he's dying.

Naruto not mastering the Kyuubi is no one's fault but his own. Jiraiya attempted to teach him how to do it and he failed. His father wanted him to use the power, and so did Jiraiya. The rest is up to him. The potential is there for him to be the most powerful shinobi there is because of it. The benefits the Kyuubi can give him FAR outweight the benefits Sasuke has and can have from his Sharigan, it's just a matter of time before that happens.

[M3J]

Naruto did copy the Sasuke's combo combo (which Sasuke himself copied from Rock Lee's upwards kick), but still, Naruto simply doesn't have the innate ability to copy movements and jutsu on sight. Rock lee worked super hard to attain his speed, how did Sasuke get comparable speed? Kakashi copied the movements with his sharingan, and it would be fair to assume that Sasuke did the same with Sasuke.
He apparently does, as he did copy the rendan move Sasuke used, but with different variation. Sasuke being able to copy Rock Lee's kick isn't as much, as anyone with ability is able to do the same. And to be honest, we've seen him use the copying ability trice, if I recall correctly. Rock Lee's kick, his taijutsu style, and Kakashi's chidori.
Also, Kakashi didn't copy the movements with his Sharingan. It was Sasuke that did. I think. At least, it was Sasuke who used his Sharingan to copy Rock Lee's style.



And the rasengan.... well, he got inspiration from a cat, but that's not watching somebody perform the jutsu and copying it, plus he worked like a dog that whole week to use rasengan. When Naruto used the full rasengan for the first time, he had no idea whether it would work, by the time we saw Sasuke use it vs. Gaara, it was clear he had used it many times before (the flashback to chidori training, and how he could only use 2 a day or else he would put himself at risk).
He saw Jiraiya do it though. That's basically the same as copying, even if his variation is different. Same principle with Sasuke; if jutsu used is seen and used, it's copied whether there is variation or amount of hard work put is different. And if Sasuke is able to copy jutsu, why wouldn't he copy rasengan as it's obviously more powerful than chidori, and even incomplete one at it?
Sasuke practiced and mastered chidori in a month though, whereas Naruto mastered rasengan in a week. A genius took longer to master a jutsu than a proclaimed idiot.


Sharingan helped Sasuke in spades for gaining Lee's speed. Kakashi copied Lee's speed, Sasuke copied Kakashi.

We havn't seen Sasuke train since he was with Oro (he was slaughtering those sound ninjas), we definitely have not seen him pass out from exhaustion from training, nor staying up all night to train.
Proof Sasuke copied Kakashi's speed copied from Lee? My proof is Kakashi saying (http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/112/07/) Sasuke used what he copied during his fight with Lee to practice. And even then, Sasuke still got pretty tired. He didn't have the stamina to keep his high speed taijutsu as long as Lee could. So while Sasuke may have ability to copy ninjutsu and taijutsu, it's still up to his ability and skills to make the most of it.


Sasuke has sharingan, and CS, and MS, and eventually will have EMS, and he uses (/used) all of those to his advantage. Naruto has just Kyuubi, and he absolutely refuses to let Kyuubi help him.

Again, underlying theme of the manga showing through here. Naruto possess great power in Kyuubi yet refuses to use it so he can prove that he himself is powerful through hard work.
He had the Kyuubi help him twice against Nagato/Pain. When he was captured by Pain and when he was facing Nagato.


Every uchiha has an advantage bcoz of their eyes.They have been getting free power-ups ever since the birth of their clan so this is nothing new.
Proof?


I never said sasuke didn't train in part 1, he was always training in part 1 but its part 2 that bothers me. In part 2 most of sasuke's moves does not require him to train much to gain perfection thats what bothers me. I really don't know much of MS because this is very new in the manga so we need more time to find out more but it seems blindness can be fix very quick and simple :notrust.
Actually, MS does require him to train, but because of the way it seals the eyes, he can only train them when he absolutely needs to. And main reason we saw him training in Part I, I think, was because he was with Naruto. When he wasn't with Naruto, only time we saw him train was in flashback.
And if blindness could be fixed quickly and simply, then Madara wouldn't have panicked so much when he got blind and Itachi mightn't have gotten blinder. This is just an opinion though.


yes naruto did copy some of sasuke moves, all shinobi copy or get an idea from someone else. look at kakashi, he must of been sued million of times for coping other peoples work. kakashi is the biggest fraud in the manga come on his nickname is copy ninja and he gets his ass handed to him in every fight :eyeroll, lol not bashing kakashi still love his character just making fun of him. but the point that am arguing is for training before mastering a jutsu i want sasuke to train to gain a mastery of a jutsu like naruto, lee, naji and etc.
He did the same with chidori, especially the taijutsu part. After getting the cursed seal, he trained during the timeskip and we saw two evidences he was training.
And he doesn't get his ass handed to him. <_< Kakashi still goes out looking awesome. :mad


I think that Sasuke does train very hard for certain things. He probably trained hard for his Raiton, Katon, speed, Kunai skills, etc. Sasuke is a brilliant technician. When it comes to his Sharingan and MS related abilities, there isn't really any training. He just awakens them under emotional circumstances and instantly levels them up right after awakening them, with little to no difficulty or effort.

This could be due to him being a genius though. AFter trying out or using MS jutsu once or twice, he had enough knowledge to improve his usage. It does make sense that Sasuke can "level up" his abilities even after one usage.
And we've seen him develop his Sharingan and MS through battle. We've seen Sasuke advance and "level up" in battles, whereas Naruto did the same in training and showed the fruits in battles. I think Sasuke functions better in a hostile environment because he's truly challenged and has more reason to bring his best.

[jdw]

Sasuke practiced and mastered chidori in a month though, whereas Naruto mastered rasengan in a week. A genius took longer to master a jutsu than a proclaimed idiot.


These things are not really comparable though, imo. Let's say it took Sasuke one month to learn Chidori, which is elemental and shape manipulation, and it took Naruto one week to learn Rasengan, which was shape manipulation only, it took Naruto the equivalent of years to learn elemental manipulation and add it to rasengan, and still doesn't have the ability to use rasengan or FRS without using KB's.

[kisame123]

Every uchiha has an advantage bcoz of their eyes.They have been getting free power-ups ever since the birth of their clan so this is nothing new.


Senju symbol
Caption: The Senju clan of the Forest

Text: Dreaded as "the thousand-handed clan", they gathered prodigies in all kinds of ninjutsu, taijutsu, and genjutsu techniques. The first among them was Senju Hashirama of the Mokuton. In a world of belligerent countries, he's a legendary shinobi who pushed the way to the zenith to extreme heights.

so it's completely fair for Naruto to be genetically "good" at all kinds ninjutsu, taijutsu, genjutsu? I suppose it's okay if he's supposed to learn everything since it's in his blood right? cut the bullshit, I'm starting to realize that Sasuke has even worked harder for his powers than Naruto has.

if there's anything Kishimoto has failed to do, it's drawing the line between genius and hardworking ninja. Naruto and Rock Lee can cry all day because they have a hard time, mostly due to their own stupidity, and because girls don't chase after them. however, the fact remains that Neji and Sasuke work their asses off.


These things are not really comparable though, imo. Let's say it took Sasuke one month to learn Chidori, which is elemental and shape manipulation, and it took Naruto one week to learn Rasengan, which was shape manipulation only, it took Naruto the equivalent of years to learn elemental manipulation and add it to rasengan, and still doesn't have the ability to use rasengan or FRS without using KB's.
chidori wasn't shape manipulation, but elemental as it only molds chakra towards the hand. the rasengan on the other hand, was shape manipulation, but more complex as it molds chakra into extremely dense form. as for the years of combining the two, it can be seen that way. however, it is a pathetic way to level-up and an insult to the hardwork ethic he established in Part I, not to mention an insult to the pride and reputation of his father and sensei. at least Sasuke is clearly shown to be inferior to Itachi, as stated in the manga, whereas Naruto has stated to have "surpassed" his master and father. perhaps even the Rinnegan cannot master as many jutsu as Naruto can in a lifetime thanks to kagebunshin.


I think that Sasuke does train very hard for certain things. He probably trained hard for his Raiton, Katon, speed, Kunai skills, etc. Sasuke is a brilliant technician. When it comes to his Sharingan and MS related abilities, there isn't really any training. He just awakens them under emotional circumstances and instantly levels them up right after awakening them, with little to no difficulty or effort.
the manga (in other words Kishimoto) says different:

"A sharingan that can activate even susanoo is a rarity... I wouldn't want to let a nice pair of eyes like that slip through my fingers.

In fact, I wanted to give him the opportunity to train them up further in combat with the five kages, it was I who sent him here."
http://read.mangashare.com/Naruto/chapter-467/page009.html


That isn't the same as saying absolutely zero effort. My comparison goes from hard training for some things to little to no effort for others.
it's not "little" at all, it's an incredible feat, as Madara clearly said, any eye that can activate susanoo is a "rarity". if the manga defines Sasuke as a genius, just because it portrays him to learn faster than most others, doesn't necessarily equate to being easier for him. if you look take a deep look at how this manga has portrayed Sasuke's evolution as a shinobi, you can clearly see the Mangekyou has been more harder to master for Sasuke than any other jutsu he has learned.


Personally, I thought it was absurd for Sasuke to go from Susanoo riblet edition to the skeleton edition in a matter of seconds/minutes, then from Skeleton edition to archer edition with nothing really happening in between, then from Archer to bodysuit Susanoo a few minutes later. In all, he went from no Susanoo at all to complete Susanoo archer/then bodysuit in what seems like less than one day, and probably a total of like 5-10 minutes of actual usage. I see it this way, on a scale of 0-100, with zero being little effort and 100 being the most:

Sasuke training for Raiton/Katon/Speed/Kunai/Sword skills: probably between 80-100.
Sasuke training for Sharingan/MS jutsu: 0-2.

aside from the points made in my arguments below, I'm starting to consider the possibility that at least a day has passed by between the Kage fight and Danzou. for one, we know that the kage fight occurs right after Team Suicide sets out to kill Sasuke. it would have taken them some time to reach the country, since according to our previous knowledge of maps from Part I, the countries we are seeing right now like the Samurai country weren't anywhere near the Fire Country.

Keep in mind the Sand Village took a few days to reach and yet, it's still visible on the small scale of the map we've seen so far. the Samurai country isn't anywhere in the small map, it's very possible that it takes a few days journey to reach it. what I'm saying is that Sasuke most likely fought Danzou quite a bit after the Kage fight. Madara can teleport anywhere, however, I'm using Team Suicide's travel time as an measurement to determine the amount of time that has passed. if you compare this to time spent on mastering Sage Mode, which clearly defines a night, you'll see that Sage Mode probably didn't even take a week.


I am not saying that Sasuke did not train at all. I am saying the training was minimal to the point of being training in name only.
but it wasn't minimal, it's the most rigorous and dangerous training regiment he has ever been through. it seems that you've accepted the fact that the Mangekyou cannot be trained outside of battle, I'm glad you did. however, that's the thing, Sasuke has fought the "perfect" jinchuuriki. one who "control" his bijuu, use its power, concentrate it, and having the Bijuu manifest itself in full form. then he's fought the Kages, all powerful S-Rank ninja, in order to "train" his eyes in combat as Madara intended. if you compare this training regiment, which is far more dangerous than that of Root or the Bloody Mist Ninja academy, it's beyond anything Sasuke has done in Part I or even risking his body to Orochimaru.


As for Sasuke not extensively training Mangekyou because of the blindness limitation, I don't blame him. I blame Kishi for making it such a cheap set of abilities. I think there are ways Kishi could have made MS less cheap, but this is what he opted for. When he needs to work hard, Sasuke does indeed work hard, imo.
although I personally hate the Mangekyou Sharingan (for other reasons), I'm not going to say that it's cheap. the blindness limitation is actually perfect, having a limiter on a power is a good thing in Shounen. any good power-up comes with limitation, serious health risks, and debilitation.
the Mangekyou comes with not only one setback, but many:
loss of eyesight
drains a massive amount of chakra being proportional to the power of the technique
causes immense and unbearable amounts of pain to the eyes and cells
drains the users lifeforce.
there are plenty of unique and extremely powerful abilities out there in the ninja world, but hardly anything carries such risks or causes the user this much harm. the Rinnegan, with its awesome abilities in each Realm, virtually poses no risk other than the drain of chakra with Chou Shinra tensei as an exception. the jinchuuriki can harness potentially limitless chakra, the essential component of all jutsu and something that separates the powerful shinobi from the weaker and pathetic ninja. without large chakra reserves, one cannot hope to earn legendary status. yet, the jinchuuriki have chakra reserves that are beyond and unreachable by any other ninja in the world. the only setback they seem to suffer is shortened lifespan due to high-speed regeneration and that's only if in the unlikely chance they are injured.


If we look at the affairs of the Kage summit, and when Susanoo supposedly awoke in Sasuke, he had a fight with Raikage in which Susanoo riblet edition appeared. Directly after that encounter, but during the same timeframe, Susanoo skeleton edition appeared wielding a sword. Sasuke was saved and Madara left the kage summit. Karin healed Sasuke and they exited Madara's pocket dimension. Upon fighting Danzou, shortly into the fight Sasuke reveals complete Susanoo, wearing a Thriller jacket and carrying a bow and a flaming ball. The event surrounding Susanoo seemingly take place on the same day, or perhaps over 1.5 - 2 days (I think it all took place within 24 hours or less, starting one evening/night and finishing the following afternoon, but it cannot be proven). While I did say it was drawn out, that doesn't mean the fight took days, weeks, or months. It was drawn out in chapters, meaning weeks of my life. In manga time it wasn't terribly long at all.

I will operate on the assumption that we have seen all of Sasuke's actual serious fights in the time since he obtained MS. This may be a faulty assumption, but just go with me for a minute.


Amaterasu: Sasuke used his own Amaterasu against Bee (once I believe). It took him 2-3 seconds to use the techniques in my estimation. He then turned it off a few seconds later. At the Kage Summit, he used Amaterasu a few times amounting for a few seconds here and there. Shortly after, he mastered it to the point where he could make spikey formations and wonderfully control spheres of black flames. The total amount of time from acquisition to master in terms of actual usage: 2 minutes.
Susanoo: Awakened at the Kage Summit. Used riblets a few times for a minute or so, etc. Shortly after leveled up to Skeleton. Used riblet again, tried skeleton. Left Kage summit and used it against Danzou and got the complete edition then bodysuit Susanoo. Total time from acquisition to mastert in terms of actual usage: 5-15 minutes (if we are being generous people).


I've already gone through this in-depth detail. these things did not take "seconds" they took weeks in total if we were to judge the usage by the complete progress that Sasuke has made. I've already pointed out that there has been a considerable amount of time between the Kage fight and Danzou as indicated by Sakura's travel time. yet, you seem to be using the amount of time the technique was activated based on your own estimation. I don't think that is a good standard to estimate actual time that passes in the manga, a panel or two does not at all indicate a second. as I've pointed out the estimation of Sakura's travel time, which coincides with Sasuke's Kage battle and departure to Danzou, there's quite a bit of time passing in the manga despite only lasting a second for us as we turn the page.
amaterasu was unleashed from the designated left eye against Killerbee. the technique itself lasted for about a few minutes as Sasuke lost concentration in his relief, but as the Hachibi put Karin's life in danger, Sasuke used the other eye to control the flame and that took about a few seconds to the extinguish Karin. after some minutes, he used it on Killerbee to extinguish the flames and it took a few minutes to completely cool the bijuu.
notice the balancing effect of both eyes, one eye is used to cast the flame, while the other is used to control it as commented on by Shii. Sasuke immediately realized this and used this effect to its full potential at least a week later when he was forced to train at the Kage summit. remember, Sasuke is a ninjutsu specialist and as seen with his spatial recomposition and manipulation of chidori, Sasuke applied his creativity and prowess to amaterasu. although this may seem incredible and suggests some mastery, it cannot be seen as such because it is only taking amaterasu and branding it as Enton. the Enton jet fire stream may have been creative, however, covering susanoo armor with flames is not. if I can recall, you weren't impressed with Sasuke putting out the flames against Killerbee, so the same effect here shouldn't be too impressive either. the amount of time lapsed shouldn't be seen as the criteria for mastery, rather what should be viewed favorably is the creative use of what is supposedly an innate ability.
susanoo was "awoken" on the same day the other techniques were awoken, the day when Sasuke awoke his Mangekyou. it was already there and yet, he still hasn't perfected it completely yet. he activated the riblets in the most dire need as protection against the Raikage. this technique was on for minutes. I would say at least ten as the ninja and spectators certainly would have scratched their heads figuring out what was happening. then Sasuke covered the riblets in amaterasu, nothing masterful there, just clever. this went on for a few minutes until Raikage attacked. As the Raikage had another go, Sasuke simply propelled his flames forward and branded it as a new jutsu. it's nothing special as Itachi has shown to litter and engulf the whole entire battefield by propelling his flame, chasing Sasuke. this happened in a second, however, as Gaara intervened, Sasuke had the same flame armor technique activated for a lot of minutes as their dialogue continued. as soon as Gaara attacked, Sasuke did the samething over again for minutes.
as all the ninja attacked at once, a complete body susanoo with bones and muscle fibers was activated and using and chakra sword of some kind, escaped the area. I would estimate this to be at least a minute as there was some speech by Sasuke and then action to damage the area.
some time later, as I've estimated a few days later based on Sakura's travel time, Sasuke fought Danzou. he immediately activated the technique, albeit only drawing out the arm. it was clever seeing how it was actually useful. Sasuke and Danzou had quite a bit of dialogue, at least a few minutes while the arm was active. then Sasuke grew out the full body susanoo and used it squish Danzou. the technique was released and then the there was a fight in which Sasuke used kenjutsu. a good amount of time has passed by as Sasuke has been captured by the seal. then he manages to complete the technique. afterwards, most of the fight was in the comfort zone of susanoo. this was a serious amount of time, as Sasuke kept on firing one arrow after another.
immediately after, Sakura arrives and at least half an hour has passed since Danzou's death. Sasuke activates susanoo again while facing Kakashi. keep on mind that there has been an unspecified, but a great deal of time in the fight. remember the Sasuke and Kakashi began their fight on top of the bridge, but the fight was sadly skipped and Sasuke had a complete susanoo firing arrows underneath the bridge. after another outburst, the technique gained an extra layer of armor but only for a second as it was released.
to this day, Sasuke has not perfected tsukuyomi and seems far from it despite having a month pass by. he's only used tsukuyomi once as officially stated in the manga and that was imperfect, far too inferior from itachi's level. meanwhile, Sasuke has used regular but enhanced genjutsu with the mangekyou.
here's an old post, it deals with the activation and span of chapters covering Sasuke's evolution.
the Killerbee fight happened a while ago and at least one technique (perhaps two) was used at that time. even then, amaterasu was uncontrolled. the Kage fight came much later on when Sasuke would have gotten the hang or feel of the doujutsu. we can't give an exact figure on minutes, there's no conclusive proof as to how long it took for each move to happen. however, all the fighting that has taken place gives us the satisfaction that it has taken time for the techniques to perfected.

there have been a good 45 chapters in between both fights so we know that his growth has been consistent and evenly spread out. then there were about another fifteen chapters until Danzou in which the final technique-which was drawn out earlier-was perfected. last but not least, tsukuyomi has still not been perfected yet and was even commented on by Danzou. nonetheless, Madara clearly considers this to be one big training exercise.

a simpler way of explaining:

tsukuyomi (was/wasn't) used before Killerbee. amaterasu was unleashed but uncontrolled on Killerbee. (Chapters 410-415) this is confirmed to be a while before the Kage fight.
amaterasu is perfected and controlled in the Kage fight. susanoo is activated during the fight, but wasn't perfected. it's important to note that amount of times, susanoo is drawn out. it was drawn out and retracted about two times (or more). this was from Chapters 463-466.
significant time has passed, at least a few days considering travel time of Sakura to Danzou's location. susanoo is perfected in Danzou fight. again, it's important to note that it was partially drawn out in the beginning (which even you commented on, suggesting "mastery" over it) (Chapters 476-478).
same day, susanoo gains second layer of armor after Sasuke goes berserk and pumps more lifeforce while fighting Kakashi.
tsukuyomi still hasn't been perfected yet, it's even been mocked in the manga. it will be perfected at another time.

let's not forget, these are only three techniques. I'm also going to take SenninSage's idea, Sasuke's regular sharingan has taken years to evolve. he first awakened a one-tomoe Sharingan after the massacre. soon there were unequal sets of tomoes, but two-tomoe, years later against Haku. the three-tomoe sharingan was awakened during the fight at Valley of the End against Naruto. this process took about four years.
it wasn't "minutes" after. there was a lot of time and remember, a battle, even if it may only take seconds, feels like days. we seem to have forgotten that battles are the best way to train because they bring experience. the last time I can remember such a battle was when Kakashi fought Zabuza. my point, however, is to take a look at how this development was spread out the course of many chapters, it's been about 80 chapters!

I've already pointed at that out in the bulleted points, that was one collossal fight against four kage level opponents, and even then as I mentioned there were difficulties. susanoo was drawn out and retracted at least two times and even then, Sasuke clearly stated that it was difficult and even painful process.

"Every cell in my body hurts... is this the risk that using susanoo carries?

I haven't even perfected it yet and it still hurts this much..."
http://read.mangashare.com/Naruto/chapter-466/page005.html

this was clear for everyone to read in the manga, it clearly states that some training and time is involved. if the Kishimoto is screaming this out for everyone to see, I don't see how anyone cannot be satisfied after reading that line. in this Kage fight, one technique was used for the first time while another was only the same technique used earlier, except in creative way. the next fight, which you state is still taking place on the same day although an unspecified amount of time later, the last technique which was used earlier was perfected and even still it is missing some items. in that same fight, tsukuyomi was openly stated to have been imperfect. even with the recent level-up of susanoo, it is clearly missing a the sword of totsuaka.

I think it is disingenuous to say that MS has been the hardest for Sasuke to master overall. Obtaining MS was simply an emotional affair. While it tugs at the heart, it wasn't "difficult" in the sense that Sasuke had to work for it.
I disagree, as I've pointed out, nothing has been shown to be as difficult and painful for Sasuke to master. chidori was done in a month, surprisingly the same amount of time it took Naruto to master the rasengan. taijutsu and speed were enhanced in a month and Sasuke had spent 2.5 years acquiring various jutsu and skills which haven't been completely revealed, for example, his space-time jutsu used during his fight with Deidara. however, Sasuke was able to achieve such a broad range of abilities including his first attempt at Raiton-based ninjutsu, taijutsu, and speed within a month! compare that to the Mangekyou in which therein lie only three techniques, of which Sasuke has only improved but not mastered two out of the three. Sasuke did have to work for it, he had to fight Itachi to death. Itachi have even hoped that Sasuke would train and become powerful enough to kill him and although it wasn't nearly enough, he still trained for that day.

I don't see why people seem to apply double-standards to emotional bursts of power, considering that Naruto was able to destroy his opponents with his untrained emotional powers and Nagato was able instantly kill someone by looking at them with his untrained Rinnegan. why only look at Sasuke? these things are innate but it wasn't simply an emotional affair. as I've shown, the Mangekyou has taken a month to partially, not completely, master and yet Sasuke is now blind.

If we have seen all of Sasuke's fights, (maybe we have not!) and we assume he did not stare at chalkboards to train MS, it cannot be said that he spent serious amounts of time of usage (training I guess we'll call it) climbing up from MS newbie to MS master of these techniques.
I wouldn't call Sasuke a "master" yet, he might be experienced especially after fighting the best ninja the world has to offer, but not completely acquainted with his powers. there might be other techniques Sasuke hasn't activated like warping or other things. I realized that there might more to the Mangekyou when Madara revealed that bit during the Danzou arc. as I've shown the amount of time of usage is actually lengthy, particulary with susanoo. he had the technique for at least forty minutes in total and that usage has spanned for a few days, between the kage fight and Danzou.

NOTE: one interesting bit you have brought up is the fact that we may not have seen all of Sasuke's fights. I wouldn't speculate on fights, but I'm starting to realize that Sasuke may have trained his Mangekyou in a time period other than his fights. as Sasuke has hinted, there has been something he's been wanting to try. perhaps, he may have come upon some of the techniques shown in the Kage fight a bit earlier within that span of time after killerbee?
http://read.mangashare.com/Naruto/chapter-453/page016.html

with that said, I will repeat that the manga spells it out clearly enough. Madara sent Sasuke to "train his eyes further up in combat", that's exactly what it means, the Kages were simply one big exercise for Sasuke. despite the actual stance of kishimoto, you continue to persist in your opinion. I've realized that your argument has changed from time to time, it was first complete hax without training. then it became "easy to activate" and now it depends on the time of usage.

your time usage argument is actually influenced largely by Naruto's training regiment in Part I, which unforunately has died out as he is now taking a dump on his father and sensei's reputation easily with kagebunshin. Sage Mode, although considered a jutsu, shouldn't be the criteria for mastering a technique since it requires meditation and perfection of balancing natural energy. this inevitably takes time and the rasengan, too, differs from every other technique as it is relatively new, requires no handseals but molding of chakra to an exceptionally high degree, and is unique to a few users.

keep in mind that Mangekyou techniques are doujutsu, they are jutsu except activated through the eyes instead of handseals. a jutsu is something that a ninja already has and to learn it, only simply needs to have the elemental affinity and handseals, which mold chakra to form the technique. you don't train a jutsu, it's something that you already have as long as you know how to use it. likewise, a jutsu isn't "mastered" in congruence to time usage. it simply activates and releases once over. despite this fact, Kishimoto clearly draws out a great span of time in his manga to illustrate Sasuke's progression with his doujutsu. jutsu only need to be activated, but not perfected. perhaps the Mangekyou doujutsu is more advanced and complicated than regular jutsu?


I respect your position on these matters and just think that we disagree with each other on the topic. No harm no foul. had you not replied to my post, perhaps I would not have gone through the trouble of replying to you by dropping tonnes of words. if only you hadn't, if only you hadn't... :(

[M3J]

These things are not really comparable though, imo. Let's say it took Sasuke one month to learn Chidori, which is elemental and shape manipulation, and it took Naruto one week to learn Rasengan, which was shape manipulation only, it took Naruto the equivalent of years to learn elemental manipulation and add it to rasengan, and still doesn't have the ability to use rasengan or FRS without using KB's.

Naruto isn't as good with chakra focus or usage though. Ebusi did explain that Naruto uses up more chakra than he needs, while Sasuke can be little bit off. Naruto's had difficulty controlling his chakra. We saw this in Part I, before we met Sasuke and during their training. It makes sense Naruto needs bunshin for rasengan while Sasuke doesn't. And rasengan does look to be on more advanced level than chidori, IMO anyway. It's holding a violently spiraling sphere compressed in a palm as opposed to extra chakra in hand. And I don't think FRS can be used without at least ONE bunshin for almost anyone. Naruto did what Minato, Kakashi, and even Jiraiya could not do, he completed rasengan. Sasuke added more variants to chidori, but it's not as powerful as raikiri, just more destructive.

And to be honest, Sasuke being more powerful has helped Naruto be more powerful. So even if Sasuke does get free gifts, he gets it for a reason. :s

[Ryr]

Sasuke S-Rank Fights:

Itachi
Deidara
Orochimaru
Raikage
Danzou

Naruto S-Rank Fights:

Itachi (clone)
Deidara
Orochimaru (4-tails)
Gaara (pt 1)
Pain (and let's be fair here, you know this counts as more than 1. ;))

Wow, talking about manipulating data.

Itachi's clone is not S-ranked, Itachi himself is.
Sasuke won against Deidara on a 1 versus 1, while Naruto barely do anything against Deidara.
And Gaara being S-ranked in part 1 is a bit of a stretch, he may be S-ranked now, but not in part 1

[Eddy01741]

There, I highlighted the wrong conception in the above quote.

You actually think that training in a safe and controlled environment is superior to actual combat? You can train for all eternity but may still fight pathetically when facing actual enemies. You can have all the power in your palms (or arm LOL) but still suck at using them, aka Danzou style.

Sasuke doesn't train because he has been fighting continuously in actual combat since the beginning of part2. And fighting S-ranked opponents is simply a better way to sharpen your skills compared to training with your mentor, because your mentor obviously would not go all-out against you.

So like.. 5 intense battles>1000s of years of work (equivelent, with the mass kage bunshin)?

So Sasuke just needs to put in his like... weekly 20 minute battle and he should be stronger than Naruto who trains day in and day out (when he's not chasing Sasuke) with clones to make sure he's using 100% of his chakra?

Sorry, I call bullshit there. If Naruto and Sasuke had the same aptitude (IE, ability to learn things fast), then Naruto would be lightyears beyond Sasuke.


That said, Sasuke clearly has higher aptitude than Naruto (hailed genius since academy, has sharingan to help him learn stuff fast, etc.)


All in all, I'm just saying that Sasuke "levels up" extremely fast for how little training and effort we've seen him do compared to Naruto. So either it's Kishi giving free gifts (EMS and CS in themselves are basically free gifts), or Sasuke just learns that fast.

I simply think it's a mixture of the two. Sasuke does learn very fast (he has sharingan and is a genius), but he also gets his free gifts on his merry way.

[Delbi]

The experience one gains from actual fighting can never be reproduced in a training regimen, it's simply not possible.

Saying that, you still need to train normally to sharpen your skills.

Naruto's training for FRS did jack shit in terms of making a better shinobi, all it did was help him create a technique.

Sasuke's training when he fought 1000 shinobi however made him a better shinobi seeing as how it's combat training, and not technique training.

Likewise, Naruto sparing in Sage Mode with Pa made him better.

@ Eddy Sasuke does learn as fast as we are seeing him. That's his thing, he's a genius, he can try something out once, analyze it, and perfect it, he basically showed us he can do that with Ameratsu.

As far as him getting "gifts" the only thing that comes to mind is CS. Beyond that, he's worked or fought for everything else. We could argue that EMS is a "gift" but Itachi had to die for that, and Sasuke still had to awaken MS before he could even get EMS.

Also the argument about "if Naruto had Sasuke's aptitude, he'd be lightyears ahead of Sasuke." Well no shit, and if Sasuke could use Kage Bushin training he'd probably turn into a God lol. So it goes both ways. Sasuke can learn things fast, but Naruto can cram years of training into a few days. Both yeild the same result.

[Ryr]

So like.. 5 intense battles>1000s of years of work (equivelent, with the mass kage bunshin)?

So Sasuke just needs to put in his like... weekly 20 minute battle and he should be stronger than Naruto who trains day in and day out (when he's not chasing Sasuke) with clones to make sure he's using 100% of his chakra?

One actual combat, especially against a powerful opponent, would teach you a lot of things that are simply impossible to learn in a controlled environment.

So Naruto may spend weeks or months trying to learn Rasenshuriken, but in the end he would only acquire one new skill. But by fighting against Raikage, Sasuke gained Enton, Susanoo and combat experience that can only be obtained through actual combat.

So no, training is not the best way to sharpen your skills. I am hoping that Naruto would go out there and fight more opponents, because training behind your house is for cowards.



If Naruto and Sasuke had the same aptitude (IE, ability to learn things fast), then Naruto would be lightyears beyond Sasuke.

If Madara has one leg he would trip LOL. 'If' should shut the fuck up.



All in all, I'm just saying that Sasuke "levels up" extremely fast for how little training and effort we've seen him do compared to Naruto. So either it's Kishi giving free gifts (EMS and CS in themselves are basically free gifts), or Sasuke just learns that fast.

Naruto could learn faster if he goes out there like a man and fight. Not hiding behind the frog paradise to train.

Fighting powerful opponents is risky, yes, but you learn a lot more from it.

[Rikudou King]

Add to that the fact that Naruto never fights along much and gets help with his opponents, And it's completely understandable that his fighting abilities are lower then Sasuke's abilities.

Regardless of whether he wins or loses, Or needs help escaping, Sasuke continues to gain the experience with each of his fights. He learns the in and outs of his abilities through them. Naruto on the other hand doesn't get this advantage out of his fights. Since others are continuing coming to his aid, He doesn't have to face his shortcomings. For example, His weakness to genjutsu. Sasuke on the other hand has had to face his shortcomings several times, From Ee's speed countering his Sharingan to Danzo exposing the flaw of his Tsukuyomi. This allows him to understand and overcome them.

[Eddy01741]

@ Eddy Sasuke does learn as fast as we are seeing him. That's his thing, he's a genius, he can try something out once, analyze it, and perfect it, he basically showed us he can do that with Ameratsu.

As far as him getting "gifts" the only thing that comes to mind is CS. Beyond that, he's worked or fought for everything else. We could argue that EMS is a "gift" but Itachi had to die for that, and Sasuke still had to awaken MS before he could even get EMS.

Also the argument about "if Naruto had Sasuke's aptitude, he'd be lightyears ahead of Sasuke." Well no shit, and if Sasuke could use Kage Bushin training he'd probably turn into a God lol. So it goes both ways. Sasuke can learn things fast, but Naruto can cram years of training into a few days. Both yeild the same result.

I agree, Sasuke learns fast.

EMS is as much of a free gift as EMS. To awaken MS one must be a very strong uchiha, to survive CS and CS2 one must be strong enough. THey are basically equal, and Itachi would have died anyways, it was inevitable due to his sickness.

Yes, two paths to similar results, underlying theme of the manga.

[M3J]

EMS isn't a free gift like MS though. Sasuke had to train hard and work hard to bring himself near Itachi's level, or close enough anyway. Even with MS, it causes blindness, as Sasuke and Itachi have shown. EMS isn't easy to get as the affected Uchiha would need a brother and possibly a brother with MS to acquire EMS.
Sasuke has endured a lot to get MS and possibly EMS. MS and EMS are nothing if its user isn't smart enough or capable enough of using them. Sasuke may have gotten MS as free gift, but the way he uses it shows he's a genius. He tests out the jutsu, like Amaterasu, and gets hang of it. Then after getting knowledge of it, he takes it further, from what I've seen.
It's like riding a bike. First time you ride, you go a bit slow and shaky. Second time, you're more stable and go a bit faster. And after that, you're very stable and fast, and you can even do tricks without doing faceplants. That's the same with Sasuke, and his MS, especially Susano'o.

[tobeulp]

Certainly Sasuke got many free gifts from Kishi.... Basically Naruto got his powers from training even though he sometimes rely on the Kyubi powers he still train hard to achieve what he got on the other hand Sasuke even if he is a genius and a sharigan to back him up how the heck you can explain Sasuke levelup that fast.... When he fight the 8 tails he didn't even have a chance in hell to win... Then when he fight the Raikage he actually can beat the shit out of him.... And we all know that Raikage is stronger than Bee...How the heck can you explain the power acquired by Sasuke in that time gap he didn't have chance to train.. The only thing I know that Sasuke is training his hatred ^^ and hatred fuels his powers

[Delbi]

Sasuke trained a lot in Part 1, and then he trained for two and half years during the time skip. Sasuke has trained his dick off, he's simply got to the point where there is nothing left for him to train and everything has become trial and error.

[tobeulp]

I know Sasuke train hard with Orochimaru and become strong but when he fight Bee he is so inferior to him then in just days he fight the Raikage he actually manage to beat the shit out the Raikage.... That is what I want to point out....

[M3J]

Certainly Sasuke got many free gifts from Kishi.... Basically Naruto got his powers from training even though he sometimes rely on the Kyubi powers he still train hard to achieve what he got on the other hand Sasuke even if he is a genius and a sharigan to back him up how the heck you can explain Sasuke levelup that fast.... When he fight the 8 tails he didn't even have a chance in hell to win... Then when he fight the Raikage he actually can beat the shit out of him.... And we all know that Raikage is stronger than Bee...How the heck can you explain the power acquired by Sasuke in that time gap he didn't have chance to train.. The only thing I know that Sasuke is training his hatred ^^ and hatred fuels his powers

He didn't really beat the shit out of Raikage though. Raikage hurt Sasuke more than Sasuke hurt Raikage. Amaterasu on Raikage's arm was by his own choice, and Sasuke was saved because of his intelligence and willing to test things out.

And we have to remember, Raikage and Killerbee fight differently. :s

[insid3rkill3r]

I know Sasuke train hard with Orochimaru and become strong but when he fight Bee he is so inferior to him then in just days he fight the Raikage he actually manage to beat the shit out the Raikage.... That is what I want to point out....

He was able to stand firm against the Raikage because he was getting control of his MS. As i said before,, the MS isnt mean to be something u train for years because it makes u blind,, thats why Kishi had only the genius of the Uchiha clan have the potential to awake it, because they would have the talent to make use of it quick enough.

See what im getting at? MS isnt meant to be trained, its doujutsu can be tested and improved with time but its not something u can play with much, thats why the only ones who are meant to awake it are ppl such as Itachi, Sasuke, Kakashi, Madara,,

[Delbi]

I know Sasuke train hard with Orochimaru and become strong but when he fight Bee he is so inferior to him then in just days he fight the Raikage he actually manage to beat the shit out the Raikage.... That is what I want to point out....

Keep in mind, that when Sasuke fought Bee, he was not only still recovering from his fight with Itachi, and still trying to figure out his powers.

Since Sasuke is a genius, he is able to analyze his MS techniques and improve upon them with each use. He has an affinity for them by just being an Uchiha, and with him being a genius, them coming easy to him shouldn't be much of a suprrise.

[tobeulp]

Recovering? Karin is with her that time.... I know he is still trying to figure out his powers in the BEE fight but in all aspect BEE have the upperhand in that fight....
Even with Sasuke being a genius he can't just master the MS powers but in the Raikage fight seems to me he is spamming MS powers on him even having a Susano.... And in the Danzo fight he levelup his Susano just like that... I am not be surprised in the next fight of Sasuke he will activate Izanagi...

[Delbi]

Recovering? Karin is with her that time.... I know he is still trying to figure out his powers in the BEE fight but in all aspect BEE have the upperhand in that fight....
Even with Sasuke being a genius he can't just master the MS powers but in the Raikage fight seems to me he is spamming MS powers on him even having a Susano.... And in the Danzo fight he levelup his Susano just like that... I am not be surprised in the next fight of Sasuke he will activate Izanagi...

Sasuke was still recovering from his fight with Itachi, he even mentions it himself that he couldn't heal as fast without the white snakes powers. And Bee did not have the upper hand throughout the entire fight. He was forced to retreat, remeber? He did hand Sasuke his ass, but he also got pwned a bit too.

Also, after losing the CS, Sasuke's chakra went up. Kakashi mentioned that the CS would only limit Sasuke's growth, and guess what, he was right. Sasuke didn't so much as spam the MS techniques as he used them to his fullest potential. Sasuke has a decent sized chakra pool. We can't compare him to Itachi because not only does Itachi have less stamina than Sasuke, but he was sick as well.

As for his Sussano leveling up, it has to be awakened, we don't know how fast the process normally is, so we can't complain about how it happened.

[tobeulp]

Sasuke was still recovering from his fight with Itachi, he even mentions it himself that he couldn't heal as fast without the white snakes powers. And Bee did not have the upper hand throughout the entire fight. He was forced to retreat, remeber? He did hand Sasuke his ass, but he also got pwned a bit too.

Also, after losing the CS, Sasuke's chakra went up. Kakashi mentioned that the CS would only limit Sasuke's growth, and guess what, he was right. Sasuke didn't so much as spam the MS techniques as he used them to his fullest potential. Sasuke has a decent sized chakra pool. We can't compare him to Itachi because not only does Itachi have less stamina than Sasuke, but he was sick as well.

As for his Sussano leveling up, it has to be awakened, we don't know how fast the process normally is, so we can't complain about how it happened.

In the Bee fight we all know that Bee plan to lose and if Bee is planning to fight seriously Sasuke will surely lose.... He is Spamming his MS for me because he is activating it for defensive and offensive capabilities all the time in the Raikage fight....

[Ryr]

Certainly Sasuke got many free gifts from Kishi.... Basically Naruto got his powers from training even though he sometimes rely on the Kyubi powers he still train hard to achieve what he got on the other hand Sasuke even if he is a genius and a sharigan to back him up

Excuse me, Naruto receives all kinds of knowledge from his mentor, friends, and summons (the frogs). He was taught on how to manipulate Rasengan by Jiraiya, he was taught on how to absorb nature's chakra by the frogs, he was transported to a safe place to train without having to worry about anything other than the training itself. But of course, unlike you, I still acknowledge that Naruto needs to put forth a lot of effort to master all these skills given to him.



how the heck you can explain Sasuke levelup that fast.... When he fight the 8 tails he didn't even have a chance in hell to win... Then when he fight the Raikage he actually can beat him....

Sasuke levels up by fighting actual opponents, not hiding in his house training. Interesting how you mentioned the fight with Bee. For your information, the fight with Bee allows Sasuke to learn the technique which suppresses the flames of Amaterasu, and it is this particular knowledge that allowed Sasuke to eventually learn Enton, which was fully unleashed in his fight with Raikage later.

There, Sasuke always learns something new in his fights, not a single fight is wasted without gaining any new insight. I bet that if Sasuke is to fight with Raikage again in the future, Raikage would still be using the same set of jutsus, but Sasuke would've already learnt many new jutsus.

[hakuthehedgehog]

Sasuke isn't getting his power by fighting oponents, he his getting his power by having emotions and being in near death situations.
His powers saved him multiple times in situations he whould've died otherwise.
In a moment, he becomes much more stronger in a second, and I find that annoying.

[jdw]

Excuse me, Naruto receives all kinds of knowledge from his mentor, friends, and summons (the frogs). He was taught on how to manipulate Rasengan by Jiraiya, he was taught on how to absorb nature's chakra by the frogs, he was transported to a safe place to train without having to worry about anything other than the training itself. But of course, unlike you, I still acknowledge that Naruto needs to put forth a lot of effort to master all these skills given to him.



Sasuke levels up by fighting actual opponents, not hiding in his house training. Interesting how you mentioned the fight with Bee. For your information, the fight with Bee allows Sasuke to learn the technique which suppresses the flames of Amaterasu, and it is this particular knowledge that allowed Sasuke to eventually learn Enton, which was fully unleashed in his fight with Raikage later.

There, Sasuke always learns something new in his fights, not a single fight is wasted without gaining any new insight. I bet that if Sasuke is to fight with Raikage again in the future, Raikage would still be using the same set of jutsus, but Sasuke would've already learnt many new jutsus.

But seriously, even though he is the hate filled genius of the sharingan, it doesn't even seem slightly cheap that Sasuke became the God of Amaterasu after 2 minutes of usage (training in battle in you prefer)? He has a full fledged Evangelion after 5-15 minutes of actual usage (training in battle if you prefer). Even if we are to accept that Sasuke learns through his battles, which is fine, it wouldn't seem as cheap if Sasuke didn't become the god of Amaterasu in 2-3 minutes of usage, unlocked final form Evangelion in 5-15 minutes (15 minutes of usage is being generous). I wouldn't object if Sasuke learned the riblet edition of Susanoo against the Kages/danzou, then maybe the skeleton edition again Kakashi, then a few full fights later after using those for a while, unlocked Archer susanoo, then a little later got bodysuit form.

[shinsengumi]

Excuse me, Naruto receives all kinds of knowledge from his mentor, friends, and summons (the frogs). He was taught on how to manipulate Rasengan by Jiraiya, he was taught on how to absorb nature's chakra by the frogs, he was transported to a safe place to train without having to worry about anything other than the training itself.
excuse me but sasuke also learned everything from the people around him. extreme taijutsu +weapon usage ->itachi in childhood + kakashi later on + orochimaru. he learned Katon Goukakyuu from his father and chidori from kakashi.well his father just showed him goukakyuu once but its the same as jiraiya just showing the basics of rasengan once in each step because goukakyuu is C ranked and rasengan is A and also dont ever forget that naruto all by himself learned a forbidden technique in 1 night which is kage-bunshin.
and if we continue, sasuke gained CS from orochimaru and trained with it for 2 years again with orochimaru and then he recieved MS from his brother as a gift -free- without personally activating it and all thanx to his experiences from the battle with itachi , he saw all the MS techniques firsthand thus he could unleash them instictively later on.





Sasuke levels up by fighting actual opponents, not hiding in his house training. Interesting how you mentioned the fight with Bee. For your information, the fight with Bee allows Sasuke to learn the technique which suppresses the flames of Amaterasu, and it is this particular knowledge that allowed Sasuke to eventually learn Enton, which was fully unleashed in his fight with Raikage later.
you should honestly apologize for ever saying that imho.for your information , sasuke was actually the one who was hiding in orochimaru's hideout for 2 years and naruto was on the search restlessly. he even broke into akatsuki's hideout to save gaara while he was the most wanted one -the kyuubi- . he went to myobokuzan for obvious reasons ,- frog oil evaporates out of myobokuzan mountains -so that training wouldnt be done else where and he came back to the village in the split second he thought it was needed. the word -hide- should be banned in naruto-anthology. seriously
and about the fight with bee or anyone else , sasuke's way of learning and naruto's way of learning can not be compared. sasuke didnt learn anything intellectually,its either his eyes evolved during combat or he unintentionally/instinctively discovered things about his eyes. this is just like naruto learning sage mode and then with just pure anger combining it with kyuubi's power (http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/444/06/) .he didnt get new insight or anything, he just pushed his limits without even noticing. the next time naruto fights for real,i'm sure we will see it again , the mixture of SM and QB.he will use that power for sure but it cant be considered as something he learned.
just like that, whenever sasuke's emotions are on the edge,he gains some new power, its nothing like learning or anything.

[Ryr]

But seriously, even though he is the hate filled genius of the sharingan, it doesn't even seem slightly cheap that Sasuke became the God of Amaterasu after 2 minutes of usage (training in battle in you prefer)? He has a full fledged Evangelion after 5-15 minutes of actual usage (training in battle if you prefer). Even if we are to accept that Sasuke learns through his battles, which is fine, it wouldn't seem as cheap if Sasuke didn't become the god of Amaterasu in 2-3 minutes of usage, unlocked final form Evangelion in 5-15 minutes (15 minutes of usage is being generous). I wouldn't object if Sasuke learned the riblet edition of Susanoo against the Kages/danzou, then maybe the skeleton edition again Kakashi, then a few full fights later after using those for a while, unlocked Archer susanoo, then a little later got bodysuit form.

The whole post is a really big contradiction. You acknowledge Sasuke being a genius, but contend that he should learn things slowly?

Sasuke's training method, which is, through actual combat, is simply a better way to stimulate new ideas. Whenever a person is being forced into a corner, the brain would be forced to work at maximum capacity.
5- 15 minutes is already a long time in a fast-paced combat between S-ranked opponents. In that 5-15 minutes alone, the brain would be working like a slave to continuously come up with multiple options for offense and for keeping your own life. A 5-15 minutes fight with a S-ranked opponent eager to rip you into two halves is simply superior to weeks of training in a safe and controlled environment

And you keep putting emphasis on Amaterasu and Susanoo as if those skills are unfair, so let me tell you that in the Naruto series, everyone has their own overpowering skills: a touch by a Hyuga seals off all chakra circulatory systems, a colored pill multiplies your chakra by hundreds, a Yamanaka can simply switches souls with you, etc etc. In the end it's really how you use your given skills that matters. For instance, Amaterasu in Sasuke's hands is not simply a burst of wildfire, it became a shield and a spear - and this he learnt from his fights with Bee and Raikage.

[jdw]

The whole post is a really big contradiction. You acknowledge Sasuke being a genius, but contend that he should learn things slowly?

Sasuke's training method, which is, through actual combat, is simply a better way to stimulate new ideas. Whenever a person is being forced into a corner, the brain would be forced to work at maximum capacity.
15- 20 minutes is already a long time in a fast-paced combat between S-ranked opponents. In that 15-20 minutes alone, the brain would be working like a slave to continuously come up with multiple options for offense and for keeping your own life. A 15-20 minutes fight with a S-ranked opponent eager to rip you into two halves is simply superior to weeks of training where all you do is playing with

And you keep putting emphasis on Amaterasu and Susanoo as if those skills are unfair, so let me tell you that in the Naruto series, everyone has their own overpowering skills: a touch by a Hyuga seals off your all chakra circulatory system, a colored pill multiplies your chakra by hundreds, a Yamanaka can simply switches souls with you, etc etc. In the end it's really how you use your given skills that matters. For instance, Amaterasu in Sasuke's hands is not simply a burst of wildfire, it became a shield and a spear - and this he learnt from his fights with Bee and Raikage.

It isn't a contradiction at all if you are the least bit creative with it. He wouldn't have to necessarily learn things "slowly." For instance, it could be this way:

A non-genius Uchiha would normally take years to perfect Susanoo. Imperfect stages would result in less life force lost, and much less damage to the MS, whereas perfected Susanoo would result in greater loss of life force and greater damage to MS. Sasuke could then, as the hate filled genius of sharingan, unlock complete Susanoo over the course of a 2-weeks to a month, having lost little eyesight or life force. This would give the appearance of effort, etc, and preserve Sasuke's astounding level of being a genius.

This would have him learning it slower than he did in the manga as we know it now, but rapidly under different standards compared to other Uchiha and still allowing Sasuke to be a genius.

[Ryr]

Sasuke isn't getting his power by fighting oponents, he his getting his power by having emotions

Similar to how the will of fire ignites the Senju?

LOL. Having hatred alone is pointless if the ninja sucks. Sasuke's hatred is backed by clever use of jutsus, and the willingness to engage and fight in actual combat.



In a moment, he becomes much more stronger in a second, and I find that annoying.

I actually enjoy watching a character who learns from his fights. A character who learns something after every fight is a character who is constantly learning. On the contrary, you can have a character who remains pretty much the same after multiple fights, and that's a stagnant character who do not learn from experience.

[Rikudou King]

But seriously, even though he is the hate filled genius of the sharingan, it doesn't even seem slightly cheap that Sasuke became the God of Amaterasu after 2 minutes of usage (training in battle in you prefer)? He has a full fledged Evangelion after 5-15 minutes of actual usage (training in battle if you prefer). Even if we are to accept that Sasuke learns through his battles, which is fine, it wouldn't seem as cheap if Sasuke didn't become the god of Amaterasu in 2-3 minutes of usage, unlocked final form Evangelion in 5-15 minutes (15 minutes of usage is being generous). I wouldn't object if Sasuke learned the riblet edition of Susanoo against the Kages/danzou, then maybe the skeleton edition again Kakashi, then a few full fights later after using those for a while, unlocked Archer susanoo, then a little later got bodysuit form. Why, What exactly is complicated about the usage of Amaterasu? You look and you shoot. Itachi shown the same ability to stop it and control where it goes. To be honest, The only reason Itachi wasn't as good at it is because he specialized in genjutsu, Thus the reason his Tsukuyomi was greater then Sasuke's version. Since Sasuke already knew the basics behind shape manipulation for years. Not hard to think he wouldn't be able to apply that to his Amaterasu. As for Susanoo, I don't see why he shouldn't have the full version so fast since it's basically a summoning.


excuse me but sasuke also learned everything from the people around him. extreme taijutsu +weapon usage ->itachi in childhood + kakashi later on + orochimaru. he learned Katon Goukakyuu from his father and chidori from kakashi.well his father just showed him goukakyuu once but its the same as jiraiya just showing the basics of rasengan once in each step because goukakyuu is C ranked and rasengan is A and also dont ever forget that naruto all by himself learned a forbidden technique in 1 night which is kage-bunshin.
and if we continue, sasuke gained CS from orochimaru and trained with it for 2 years again with orochimaru and then he recieved MS from his brother as a gift -free- without personally activating it and all thanx to his experiences from the battle with itachi , he saw all the MS techniques firsthand thus he could unleash them instictively later on. There's a big difference. Sasuke learn by example and practice, While Naruto had to be shown the way, Mainly in Part 2. He literally had to be walked through all the steps. As I said earlier, Naruto use to put alot of work into his training during Part 1, But that has greatly changed now. Both CS and MS required massive amounts of work, For CS to lessen the effects on the body and for MS, He needed to be near Itachi's level.


you should honestly apologize for ever saying that imho.for your information , sasuke was actually the one who was hiding in orochimaru's hideout for 2 years and naruto was on the search restlessly. he even broke into akatsuki's hideout to save gaara while he was the most wanted one -the kyuubi- . he went to myobokuzan for obvious reasons ,- frog oil evaporates out of myobokuzan mountains -so that training wouldnt be done else where and he came back to the village in the split second he thought it was needed. the word -hide- should be banned in naruto-anthology. seriously
and about the fight with bee or anyone else , sasuke's way of learning and naruto's way of learning can not be compared. sasuke didnt learn anything intellectually,its either his eyes evolved during combat or he unintentionally/instinctively discovered things about his eyes. this is just like naruto learning sage mode and then with just pure anger combining it with kyuubi's power (http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/444/06/) .he didnt get new insight or anything, he just pushed his limits without even noticing. the next time naruto fights for real,i'm sure we will see it again , the mixture of SM and QB.he will use that power for sure but it cant be considered as something he learned.
just like that, whenever sasuke's emotions are on the edge,he gains some new power, its nothing like learning or anything. Sasuke wasn't hiding, He was there training and Naruto wasn't searching restlessly. He was slacking off. As far was we have been shown, Jiraiya attempted to train Naruto into countering genjutsu and controlling the Kyuubi, Both of which were bust. It was more or less confirmed by the storyline that Naruto failed to become stronger over the time skip. Once he returned, He was walked step by step into creating the Rasenshuriken. Sasuke created all his new techniques without the help of anyone.

Sasuke didn't need to learn much during his current fights, Since he was already smart and skilled. Even still he did gain the knowledge of his Tsukuyomi, The abilities the MS has over Amaterasu, His own genjutsu abilities, And using Susanoo and the pain behind it. The only gift Sauske's emotions have given him were changing Susanoo's strength. He hasn't gained anything else from "being mad".

[jdw]

Sasuke wasn't hiding, He was there training and Naruto wasn't searching restlessly. He was slacking off. As far was we have been shown, Jiraiya attempted to train Naruto into countering genjutsu and controlling the Kyuubi, Both of which were bust. It was more or less confirmed by the storyline that Naruto failed to become stronger over the time skip. Once he returned, He was walked step by step into creating the Rasenshuriken. Sasuke created all his new techniques without the help of anyone.


This isn't terribly honest at all. Naruto did become stronger with respect to dispelling genjutsu, even Itachi said so. And as for being walked steb by step through creation of Fuuton Rasenshuriken, he was only trained in Fuuton (and Sasuke was trained in Raiton by Kakashi) and left to himself to finish the jutsu. As for Sasuke's jutsu, many of them use Chidori as the foundation, not just plain old Raiton.

http://img444.imageshack.us/img444/1696/50338279.jpg

http://img146.imageshack.us/img146/3838/111ih.jpg

[hakuthehedgehog]

Sasuke had the help of Ororchimaru in developing some of his jutsus, and the help of drugs.
Naruto mastered the final stages of Rasen shuriken by himself and in secret, the same way Sasuke developed in secret some chidori variations.

@Ryr, you are missing my point, what I am saying is that Sasuke gets his life saved multiple times with instinct and emotion in a moment, don't compare it with the will of fire, who never powered up a character in the same way hatred did to Sasuke.

[Rikudou King]

This isn't terribly honest at all. Naruto did become stronger with respect to dispelling genjutsu, even Itachi said so. And as for being walked steb by step through creation of Fuuton Rasenshuriken, he was only trained in Fuuton (and Sasuke was trained in Raiton by Kakashi) and left to himself to finish the jutsu. As for Sasuke's jutsu, many of them use Chidori as the foundation, not just plain old Raiton. Itachi said he grown, Which is true. But he didn't show any genjutsu canceling abilities. He still needed to be let out of it by Sakura and Chiyo.

Sasuke wasn't trained in Raiton, He was only taught Chidori. One technique doesn't equal element training. He managed afterward to learn the rest alone. If Naruto had expanded on the Rasengan on his own, I would have no problem. But he didn't. Naruto was watched over by Kakashi and Yamato as he trained. They told him what he needed to do and gave him hints to how to do it.


Sasuke had the help of Ororchimaru in developing some of his jutsus, and the help of drugs.
Naruto mastered the final stages of Rasen shuriken by himself and in secret, the same way Sasuke developed in secret some chidori variations The only technique that Sasuke had help with is apparently Kirin. Orochimaru knew of none of his other techniques. Naruto already had Rasenshuriken figured out. The only change was throwing it. That's nothing like creating variations of an existing technique.

[Ryr]

excuse me but sasuke also learned everything from the people around him. extreme taijutsu +weapon usage ->itachi in childhood + kakashi later on + orochimaru. he learned Katon Goukakyuu from his father and chidori from kakashi.

LOL at the great fireball and taijutsu. Using Sasuke's weakest and non-factor skills as examples simply shows that you are scared of facing the bitter truths.

So let me tell you the bitter truths: The skills which matter in Sasuke's arsenal consist of jutsus invented and evolved by himself. Kirin and Enton are basically unique to Sasuke. And Susanoo was evolved through sheer combat. Now who is receiving favor from others again?



he saw all the MS techniques firsthand thus he could unleash them instictively later on.

I don't suppose Itachi taught Sasuke how to twist the flames of Amateraru too?



and about the fight with bee or anyone else , sasuke's way of learning and naruto's way of learning can not be compared. sasuke didnt learn anything intellectually,its either his eyes evolved during combat or he unintentionally/instinctively discovered things about his eyes. this is just like naruto learning sage mode and

Really, I guess the sharingans really do have their own minds. All you need to do is scream 'Twist! Amaterasu!' and all those flames magically changes shape! :eyeroll

As for intellect, it's already an established fact that Sasuke is leagues above Naruto, so no point in whining about it.



he didnt get new insight or anything, he just pushed his limits without even noticing. the next time naruto fights for real,i'm sure we will see it again , the mixture of SM and QB.he will use that power for sure but it cant be considered as something he learned.

I guess you conveniently leaves out all the vital parts where Sasuke tricked his opponents. Concealing the set-up of Kirin as simple straight-forward attacks; using a novice-level genjutsu to beat a forbidden jutsu; or manipulating his opponent's element against him, etc etc etc.

The number of exploits he has used in his fights is leagues above any other major characters in the series.



just like that, whenever sasuke's emotions are on the edge,he gains some new power, its nothing like learning or anything.

That's simply because the sharingan is powered by negative emotions, similar to how jutsus are powered by chakra. However, in the end it's how you use the skills you possess that matters, and Sasuke has been excellent in using whatever tools he has.

Heh, if I am to apply your logic, any jutsu which is powered by anything other than your own chakra would be considered as an unfair advantage, and that would include Rasenshuriken powered by nature's chakra.

[jdw]

Itachi said he grown, Which is true. But he didn't show any genjutsu canceling abilities. He still needed to be let out of it by Sakura and Chiyo.

Sasuke wasn't trained in Raiton, He was only taught Chidori. One technique doesn't equal element training. He managed afterward to learn the rest alone. If Naruto had expanded on the Rasengan on his own, I would have no problem. But he didn't. Naruto was watched over by Kakashi and Yamato as he trained. They told him what he needed to do and gave him hints to how to do it.

He was trained in Raiton because he was able to use Chidori, an A-rank Raiton jutsu. Sasuke didn't appear with a Raiton-less chidori in front of Gaara.

[hakuthehedgehog]

Sasuke wasn't trained in Raiton, He was only taught Chidori. One technique doesn't equal element training. He managed afterward to learn the rest alone. If Naruto had expanded on the Rasengan on his own, I would have no problem. But he didn't. Naruto was watched over by Kakashi and Yamato as he trained. They told him what he needed to do and gave him hints to how to do it.



In order to use chidori, you need to learn how to spatially compose elemental chakra, Kakashi said it himself, however, Sasuke did learn how to manipulate the raiton chakra into different forms, but he was taught how to elemental and spatially compose his chakra by Kakashi.
Same goes for Naruto: he was taught how to spatially and elemental compose wind chakra, but he learned how to do FRS all by himself, but with Yamato supressing the Kyuubi chakra.
But that doesn't bug me at all, in fact, I loved Sasuke until most of his fights relie mostly on his MS.

If he fought similar to Itachi, using the MS only when needed and using more his own jutsus, or got his knowleage on MS jutsus not on the brink of death, I whouldn't be even posting in this thread, but alas, he doesn't =(

[Ryr]

I'm actually hoping that Naruto would not have yet another training session, because training alone only gets you so far. You've to fight, fight and fight actual opponents.

Go to a small nation or something, I'm certain there are still a lot of villains in the world.

On another issue, it's possible that Sasuke would be getting another fight in the heart of Kumogakure, because I simply do not think Kisame can overcome Raikage and Bee together. Obviously, people are going to whine again on how having EMS is so unfair.

[hakuthehedgehog]

Seriosly, Naruto should fight against his KB in the same fashion Piccolo trained against himself in the Cell sage, that whould be cool.
EMS isn't unfair unless it lessens the chakra depletion of the jutsus, but that isn't a problem for Sasuke and the blindness side effect only affected Sasuke when he was tired as shit.

[shinsengumi]

There's a big difference. Sasuke learn by example and practice, While Naruto had to be shown the way, Mainly in Part 2. He literally had to be walked through all the steps. As I said earlier, Naruto use to put alot of work into his training during Part 1, But that has greatly changed now. Both CS and MS required massive amounts of work, For CS to lessen the effects on the body and for MS, He needed to be near Itachi's level.
but my friend, there is also another difference that goukakyuu is a trademark of the uchiha clan. every uchiha possesses this skill in them,this is a well-known fact.its only a matter of how fast and young they can do it. everybody knew that sasuke would learn it soon enough.just check his fathers reaction (http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/223/14/)
for rasengan, if you remember, it was said to be impossible for a boy especially such as naruto to learn in 1 week , eventhough the steps were shown and the way was told , it was still undoable ..yet naruto found a way..
now check tsunade's reaction (http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/167/18-19/)
And i want to beg your pardon here , to underline and polish it even more - naruto literally created the method and found his own way of doing rasengan, he combined a forbidden tech(which he learned all by himself) and rasengan together
sasuke just copy-pasted xD
now which one sounds better? which is a greater achievement? sasuke could do the jutsu which hundreds of other uchihas in history could also do in childhood,which is C rank and naruto could do the jutsu which was said to be impossible for him by the 5th hokage which is A rank

[Rikudou King]

He was trained in Raiton because he was able to use Chidori, an A-rank Raiton jutsu. Sasuke didn't appear with a Raiton-less chidori in front of Gaara. Well, Technically he did appear with a Raiton-less Chidori against Gaara. But story recon aside, He wouldn't have needed to learn and train in Raiton in order to learn and use Chidori. He learn the Gokakyou without going through the work of learning Katon. Now, I don't know whether this is because Sasuke is just Sasuke or because learning an element is only required to create new elemental techniques. All I do know is that as far as we have been shown, A person doesn't have top train in an element to use a technique of that element.


In order to use chidori, you need to learn how to spatially compose elemental chakra, Kakashi said it himself, however, Sasuke did learn how to manipulate the raiton chakra into different forms, but he was taught how to elemental and spatially compose his chakra by Kakashi.
Same goes for Naruto: he was taught how to spatially and elemental compose wind chakra, but he learned how to do FRS all by himself, but with Yamato supressing the Kyuubi chakra.
But that doesn't bug me at all, in fact, I loved Sasuke until most of his fights relie mostly on his MS. I'll said that Sasuke learn to change his chakra into lightning, But by some appearances, That doesn't seem very complicated. Naruto on the other hand required the aid of Kakashi and Yamato to train. He couldn't have done the same training without them. Of course that's the problem here, But still. I liked it better like before, With Naruto on his own practicing and training with his own ideas.


but my friend, there is also another difference that goukakyuu is a trademark of the uchiha clan. every uchiha possesses this skill in them,this is a well-known fact.its only a matter of how fast and young they can do it. everybody knew that sasuke would learn it soon enough.just check his fathers reaction (http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/223/14/)
for rasengan, if you remember, it was said to be impossible for a boy especially such as naruto to learn in 1 week , eventhough the steps were shown and the way was told , it was still undoable ..yet naruto found a way..
now check tsunade's reaction (http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/167/18-19/)
And i want to beg your pardon here , to underline and polish it even more - naruto literally created the method and found his own way of doing rasengan, he combined a forbidden tech(which he learned all by himself) and rasengan together
sasuke just copy-pasted xD
now which one sounds better? which is a greater achievement? sasuke could do the jutsu which hundreds of other uchihas in history could also do in childhood,which is C rank and naruto could do the jutsu which was said to be impossible for him by the 5th hokage which is A rank Make a note that I said "Part 2". I have no problem with the way Naruto learn the Rasengan, Thus the reason I said "Naruto use to put alot of work into his training during Part 1, But that has greatly changed now".

Still, Learning an elemental technique isn't easy. Sasuke learn Gokakyou by seeing it once and training over and over against to do it. There was no easy method in him doing it. Naruto didn't create a new method to do the Rasengan. Jiraiya told him the different steps in forming it. The reason he has to use a clone is because his chakra control sucks. And you're skipping the fact that Sasuke wasn't even a genin yet when he learnt it. He was only around seven. Naruto was already a genin and had training in using ninjutsu when he did it. So that negates the difference in rank.

[jdw]

Well, Technically he did appear with a Raiton-less Chidori against Gaara. But story recon aside, He wouldn't have needed to learn and train in Raiton in order to learn and use Chidori. He learn the Gokakyou without going through the work of learning Katon. Now, I don't know whether this is because Sasuke is just Sasuke or because learning an element is only required to create new elemental techniques. All I do know is that as far as we have been shown, A person doesn't have top train in an element to use a technique of that element.

I am not interested in a retcon debate, but we know that chidori requires Raiton. He didn't have to be a Raiton specialist, but he had to be taught Raiton to make the jutsu work or else it would not be chidori.

[Ryr]

I think it's reasonable to say that while Kakashi taught Sasuke chidori, Sasuke completed the shape manipulation on chidori by himself. Because Orochimaru commented on how he had never seen the shape manipulation when he was stabbed by a chidori spear.

[hakuthehedgehog]

But, he was also taught the essense of shape manipulation of raiton, then he developed it by himself.

[Rikudou King]

I am not interested in a retcon debate, but we know that chidori requires Raiton. He didn't have to be a Raiton specialist, but he had to be taught Raiton to make the jutsu work or else it would not be chidori. Me neither, But the fact that at that time we had nothing on elemental control should apply.

But like I was saying before, Changing chakra into an element doesn't seem that complicated to do. We witness several characters seemingly do it without any advance training. The training for Chidori probably wouldn't have been that much with nature transforming considering Sasuke had the affinity for it to begin with and that suppose to make it easier.

[M3J]

Sasuke had the help of Ororchimaru in developing some of his jutsus, and the help of drugs.
Naruto mastered the final stages of Rasen shuriken by himself and in secret, the same way Sasuke developed in secret some chidori variations.

@Ryr, you are missing my point, what I am saying is that Sasuke gets his life saved multiple times with instinct and emotion in a moment, don't compare it with the will of fire, who never powered up a character in the same way hatred did to Sasuke.

What jutsu did he have help with? And there's no proof Sasuke used drugs, it was just a speculation made by Sakura .

Will of fire did enable a character to keep going even when he couldn't. Will of fire helped Naruto keep going despite having his chakra blocked and being thrown back from the impact with Neji's defense in Kyuubi mode. It also kept Naruto moving even when he and Gaara couldn't even stand up. Will of fire has given Naruto improvements and even helped him last longer. There's not much difference between hatred and will of fire other than what defines it, as there's not much of a difference between Sasuke and Naruto. You can't knock down Sasuke without knocking down Naruto, and vice versa. If Sharingan/Mangekyo Sharingan is a cheat, then Kyuubi should be considered cheat too.

We haven't seen Sasuke train in second part because he wasn't with Naruto, and his training wasn't as vital to the development. He wasn't the main character, or secondary character, yet, so there was no way to show his training other than flashback. But he has trained. He's intelligent enough to understand jutsu and how it works, especially after using it once, like AMaterasu and Susano'o.
Many people complain about Sasuke getting too much screentime, yet they say they don't like seeing Sasuke's power when there's no indication he's trained. <_<

[Jammin]

I still say most of Sasuke's power-ups are not free gifts. He tends to pay a price, sometimes those prices are not proportional to the power he gains but they still aren't free.

The exception being bird summoning. That was a free gift no doubt about it. He did not pay time, effort, or anything else. That was a freebie summon to go along with his chosen aesthetic.

Summoning is kind of a big deal and him pulling a new one out of nowhere seems pretty absurd no matter how you look at it. If he had trained or gone searching for the a bird scroll for a while i would have no complaint...but he didn't. He could just suddenly do it. If that's not a free gift i don't know what is.-_-;

@M3J
Saying we want to see some indication that he trained doesn't in any way mean he would be getting more screen time. All we need is 1 panel saying "I'm going off to train" or "now that I'm done training" to show he has put some time and effort in. That hardly sounds unreasonable to me.

Unfortunately, that just hasn't happened. People assume he trained, since he seems to grow stronger, but we have seen absolutely no sign that he put any time or any effort into his gains in strength since he was still with Orochimaru. Considering all that, it is quite hard to justify some of his abilities.:notrust

[tobeulp]

There isn't even a time for Sasuke to train after he Kill Oro because he is too busy to build team Hebi and recovering after fight after fight... And Oro teaches Sasuke many dark techniques but it is not shown yet because it is not that important to show.... Because if Oro didn't even teach Sasuke a thing then why Sasuke even go with Oro? to make the CS stronger?..
Correct me if I am wrong Itachi fights Sasuke mainly because he wants Sasuke to see what the MS can do for Sasuke to learn it by seeing the techniques or Itachi transfer his techniques to Sasuke in the last moment when he touch Sasuke's forehead.... Because if Itachi transfer the technique to Sasuke then that consider a free gift already....
I am impress on how Sasuke fight before the Bee fights because he uses his techniques more efficiently... But in the Bee fight and all the other fight after that he uses the MS crazily that he thinks there is no toll on his life force....
I think most of the readers of Naruto thinks that Sasuke got free power boost mainly because of Sasuke abnormal rapid growth in his powers and he isn't even the Main character here in the Manga....

[Rikudou King]

There isn't even a time for Sasuke to train after he Kill Oro because he is too busy to build team Hebi and recovering after fight after fight... And Oro teaches Sasuke many dark techniques but it is not shown yet because it is not that important to show.... Because if Oro didn't even teach Sasuke a thing then why Sasuke even go with Oro? to make the CS stronger?.. Sasuke was already as strong as he needed to be by the time he killed Orochimaru and he didn't gain anything new afterward except MS. So there was nothing for him to train for. As far as we've seen, Sasuke never tried to learn any of Orochimaru's techniques. Sasuke went with Orochimaru because Orochimaru gave him asset to better training then he could have gotten at Konopa.


Correct me if I am wrong Itachi fights Sasuke mainly because he wants Sasuke to see what the MS can do for Sasuke to learn it by seeing the techniques or Itachi transfer his techniques to Sasuke in the last moment when he touch Sasuke's forehead.... Because if Itachi transfer the technique to Sasuke then that consider a free gift already.... Itachi wanted to fight Sasuke to see how strong he was and if he was ready for the things to come. Itachi's had planned for Sasuke to be the one to kill Madara using EMS, But Sasuke had refused to gain MS beforehand. So Itachi had to contend with awakening MS in Sasuke with his death.


I am impress on how Sasuke fight before the Bee fights because he uses his techniques more efficiently... But in the Bee fight and all the other fight after that he uses the MS crazily that he thinks there is no toll on his life force.... Sasuke knew the toll that MS would take. He had to use MS because that was the level of power he was fighting against. Without it, He would have died.


I think most of the readers of Naruto thinks that Sasuke got free power boost mainly because of Sasuke abnormal rapid growth in his powers and he isn't even the Main character here in the Manga.... Sasuke has always had a massive growth rate concerning his abilities. That's the reason he's consider a genius.

[tobeulp]

Sasuke was already as strong as he needed to be by the time he killed Orochimaru and he didn't gain anything new afterward except MS. So there was nothing for him to train for. As far as we've seen, Sasuke never tried to learn any of Orochimaru's techniques. Sasuke went with Orochimaru because Orochimaru gave him asset to better training then he could have gotten at Konopa.

Itachi wanted to fight Sasuke to see how strong he was and if he was ready for the things to come. Itachi's had planned for Sasuke to be the one to kill Madara using EMS, But Sasuke had refused to gain MS beforehand. So Itachi had to contend with awakening MS in Sasuke with his death.

Sasuke knew the toll that MS would take. He had to use MS because that was the level of power he was fighting against. Without it, He would have died.

Sasuke has always had a massive growth rate concerning his abilities. That's the reason he's consider a genius.

Sasuke learn the Snake technique from Oro so he learn something from Oro and I don't think that only the Snake technique he only acquired...

So certainly the awakening part is a free gift ^^

With that being said that Sasuke rely heavily on the MS because of the type of enemies he face makes Sasuke not that Genius.... Because Itachi didn't rely on his MS he rely on his jutsu and technique....

If Sasuke is truly a genius why need Oro to guide him? why need Madara? why need Itachi to awaken his powers? Sasuke is not that genius but Kishi just wants to Sasuke to still have an advantage on Naruto that is why he makes Sasuke rapid growth and it is garbage Kishi done that

[Delbi]

I think people who are claiming Sasuke shouldn't have been able to master Ameratsu or Sussano are forgetting a few things.

1) Sasuke is basically to the point where he was equal in many ways to his brother's genius. The only thing that seperated them was that Sasuke was a late bloomer.
- Tell me, is it no outside of the realm of possibilities that if Sasuke stayed in Konoha and wasn't a total dick, he couldn't be a ANBU Captain at this point? He certainly could.

2) Sasuke is probably one of, if not the best ninjutsu user left in the manga. What Itachi was for Genjutsu, Sasuke is for Ninjutsu. He created a form of elemental manipulation that Orochimaru never even heard about or saw. He could also use his CS as good as Juugo more or less. And he harness actual lightning for pete's sake.

3) Orochimaru even mentioned that his genius was nothing compared to Sasuke's at his age. Orochimaru was hailed as one hell of a genius, and was even once a Hokage candidate.

4) We then have the simple fact that Sasuke's Sharigan is one of, if not the most powerful ever produced.

So, Great Sharigan + Great Sharigan Control + Great Elemental Manipulation + Great understanding and knowledge of ninjutsu + Great use of partial transformations + Genius + seeing these jutsu used before with his Sharigan = Sasuke doing what he does so quickly.

Basically, Sasuke has been hyped as being one hell of a shinobi. Where ever he goes he's called a genius. All he is doing is living up to the hype.
[hr]


With that being said that Sasuke rely heavily on the MS because of the type of enemies he face makes Sasuke not that Genius.... Because Itachi didn't rely on his MS he rely on his jutsu and technique....

If Sasuke is truly a genius why need Oro to guide him? why need Madara? why need Itachi to awaken his powers? Sasuke is not that genius but Kishi just wants to Sasuke to still have an advantage on Naruto that is why he makes Sasuke rapid growth and it is garbage Kishi done that

For what it's worth, Itachi never fought anyone like Sasuke is fighting. He fought Sasuke and Orochimaru, both of whom he was superior to in just about every way possible at the time. So he didn't have to use his MS because he didn't have to.

Both Madara and Orochimaru have hailed Sasuke as a supreme genius, Madara even went so far to say that Sasuke could perhaps surpass Nagato. So saying Sasuke isn't genius is just biased. He's the fucking blueprint for what a genius should be in just about every way possible. Sasuke's one downfalling is his emtions, but as of late they have been helping him.

Finally, if we are talking about Sasuke learning quick, we also have to talk about Naruto.

Aside from his training with Jiraiya for two and half years, Naruto learns extremely quick for someone who was supposed to be a moron.

He leanred Rasengan in a month.
He learned and pretty much mastered Kage Bushin in a few hours.
He mastered Sage Mode in what was likely a week

So it's not like Naruto doesn't get quick power ups too. I didn't include FRS training because he actually spend years of training doing that with his Kage Bushins.

[tobeulp]

I think people who are claiming Sasuke shouldn't have been able to master Ameratsu or Sussano are forgetting a few things.

1) Sasuke is basically to the point where he was equal in many ways to his brother's genius. The only thing that seperated them was that Sasuke was a late bloomer.
- Tell me, is it no outside of the realm of possibilities that if Sasuke stayed in Konoha and wasn't a total dick, he couldn't be a ANBU Captain at this point? He certainly could.

2) Sasuke is probably one of, if not the best ninjutsu user left in the manga. What Itachi was for Genjutsu, Sasuke is for Ninjutsu. He created a form of elemental manipulation that Orochimaru never even heard about or saw. He could also use his CS as good as Juugo more or less. And he harness actual lightning for pete's sake.

3) Orochimaru even mentioned that his genius was nothing compared to Sasuke's at his age. Orochimaru was hailed as one hell of a genius, and was even once a Hokage candidate.

4) We then have the simple fact that Sasuke's Sharigan is one of, if not the most powerful ever produced.

So, Great Sharigan + Great Sharigan Control + Great Elemental Manipulation + Great understanding and knowledge of ninjutsu + Great use of partial transformations + Genius + seeing these jutsu used before with his Sharigan = Sasuke doing what he does so quickly.

Basically, Sasuke has been hyped as being one hell of a shinobi. Where ever he goes he's called a genius. All he is doing is living up to the hype.
<hr noshade size="1">


For what it's worth, Itachi never fought anyone like Sasuke is fighting. He fought Sasuke and Orochimaru, both of whom he was superior to in just about every way possible at the time. So he didn't have to use his MS because he didn't have to.

Both Madara and Orochimaru have hailed Sasuke as a supreme genius, Madara even went so far to say that Sasuke could perhaps surpass Nagato. So saying Sasuke isn't genius is just biased. He's the fucking blueprint for what a genius should be in just about every way possible. Sasuke's one downfalling is his emtions, but as of late they have been helping him.

Finally, if we are talking about Sasuke learning quick, we also have to talk about Naruto.

Aside from his training with Jiraiya for two and half years, Naruto learns extremely quick for someone who was supposed to be a moron.

He leanred Rasengan in a month.
He learned and pretty much mastered Kage Bushin in a few hours.
He mastered Sage Mode in what was likely a week

So it's not like Naruto doesn't get quick power ups too. I didn't include FRS training because he actually spend years of training doing that with his Kage Bushins.

I don't think he is near the genius of Itachi.... When Oro and Itachi fights Oro is in his prime and we know that Oro didn't even have a chance on him.... But when Sasuke fight Oro he is like almost dead ^^...

I don't think sasuke can be classified as one of the best Ninjutsu user there are far too many ninja that are superior than him.... I think Kakashi is even better in using Ninjutsu than Sasuke and the Kage's are sure better than him the only superior on Sasuke is he have MS that is why he use Ninjutsu well but not to be classified best.... If he is the best Ninjutsu user mainly lightning he can use his Lightning technique like Raikage....

In saying a genius, Kakashi said that Naruto is the only one that can surpased the 4th and I think the 4th is the most genius ninja Konoha ever have.... Tsunade and even Jiraiya praised Naruto....

And I do think Sasuke is a genius but not that super genius that Kishi have made in the past Chapters..... And I don't mind if Sasuke having a power boost like that if he is actually the main character but Naruto is.

Like I said Kishi just make Sasuke a super MS user because if Kishi didn't do it Sasuke will be inferior on Naruto.... So do anyone here thinks Sage mode Naruto < Sasuke CS + Sharingan.... Kishi wants to level the playing field for Sasuke and Naruto or make Sasuke the stronger for Naruto to catch up on him again....

This scenario will demonstrate how Sasuke rapid growth like....

Sasuke see Raikage using Raiton armor or Lightning armor (forgot the name) then in two days without particular training... Sasuke using the Raiton armor like he already surpass Raikage in terms of using it....
This is just an example scenario on how I think Sasuke unbalanced growth like..

[Ryr]

Training, training, training... If you think a ninja's skill is based purely on training itself, then Lee would've been the strongest ninja in the world LOL.

Actual combat stimulates (or forces) the brain to invent new things, and teaches one to apply the right tools at the right times. These are vital things that you cannot learn from training itself - you'll have to go out there and fight.

So people may want to cease lamenting about how a character's actual combat performance does not scale with the amount of training he had gone through.

[Destined_One]

For me, Sasuke power up's seem warranted considering his role in the manga. Everything he has done can be explained by his genius, and although it might seem fast, I can can accept it. He is one of the main characters, and the protagonists biggest rival (By shonen rule he is supposed to be ridiculously overpowered, to make the heroes tasks seem insurmountable).

Whether it is testing one's abilities in a gauntlet of battles with the strongest ninja's the Narutoverse has or spending a week to master Rasengan or a few days to surpass Jiraiya with Sage Mode. It is not an uncommon process in this manga (or the entire shonen genre tbh) to have characters improve exponentially (especially these two). Naruto's growth and advancements with Sage Mode was attributed to his determination and drive which Jiraiya's death gave him. Why can't the determination to avenge ones brother and family, serve as the same catalyst.

Whats gonna happen when Naruto masters the Kyuubi in a short time, and becomes the single most broken character in the manga. He is already throwing Summon's and covering huge distances in seconds. When he is making the Raikage look slow & Tsunade physical strength look tame, I think these so called free gifts will seem rather minuscule in comparison. We haven't even mentioned limitless chakra, genjutsu immunity. Hell he repelled gravity by sheer force lol. Who know's what a 6.7.8 tailed Kyuubi Sage Naruto will be like. Goku maybe?

[jdw]

For me, Sasuke power up's seem warranted considering his role in the manga. Everything he has done can be explained by his genius, and although it might seem fast, I can can accept it. He is one of the main characters, and the protagonists biggest rival (By shonen rule he is supposed to be ridiculously overpowered, to make the heroes tasks seem insurmountable).

Whether it is testing one's abilities in a gauntlet of battles with the strongest ninja's the Narutoverse has or spending a week to master Rasengan or a few days to surpass Jiraiya with Sage Mode. It is not an uncommon process in this manga (or the entire shonen genre tbh) to have characters improve exponentially (especially these two). Naruto's growth and advancements with Sage Mode was attributed to his determination and drive which Jiraiya's death gave him. Why can't the determination to avenge ones brother and family, serve as the same catalyst.

Whats gonna happen when Naruto masters the Kyuubi in a short time, and becomes the single most broken character in the manga. He is already throwing Summon's and covering huge distances in seconds. When he is making the Raikage look slow & Tsunade physical strength look tame, I think these so called free gifts will seem rather minuscule in comparison. We haven't even mentioned limitless chakra, genjutsu immunity. Hell he repelled gravity by sheer force lol. Who know's what a 6.7.8 tailed Kyuubi Sage Naruto will be like. Goku maybe?

This list isn't complete, but just a quick representation of Naruto, Kyuuubi, and his long struggle to do anything with it. Naruto has known he is the Kyuubi jinchuuriki for many years now, since Mizuki told him.
In Part I:

Naruto used Kyuubi chakra against Haku
Naruto used Kyuubi chakra against Neji
Naruto used Kyuubi chakra to summon Gamabunta when Jiraiya pushed him
Naruto used Kyuubi chakra against Gaara
Naruto used Kyuubi chakra (1-tail) against Sasuke at VOTE

During the timeskip:

Jiraiya and Naruto did Kyuubi training.

In Part II:

Naruto went Kyuubi against Deidara durring Gaara rescue arc (I think he went at least 2 tails, was going more perhaps)
Naruto went Kyuubi against Oro (4-tails)and almost took out Sakura.
Naruto was going Kyuubi against Sasuke and refused it, but had it suppressed by Sasuke as well
Naruto went Kyuubi during the Pain invasion (8-tails) and almost took out Hokage mountain and everyone in it.


If Naruto masters Kyuubi "quickly" who can really complain? He has actually struggled with it for many years of his own life, 10 manga years, and 480+ chapters. He has experienced Kyuubi in stages over these many years/chapters. If the situation were reversed, Sasuke would have cheaply mastered Kyuubi 10 seconds after Mizuki told him about it -_-;

[shinsengumi]

If the situation were reversed, Sasuke would have cheaply mastered Kyuubi 10 seconds after Mizuki told him about it -_-;

:rofl + :thumbs
---------
im not arguing about sasuke's genius, all im trying to point is, sasuke is gathering all his powers with the way naruto learns about kyuubi.they are the same at this point,each of them has an immense power push-up depending on their emotions but naruto only uses it when he loses every other option,it becomes a life-saver or a rage tool .... but a tool in the end which can be turned on and off ,it doesnt give him new permanent abilities
but in sasuke's case,whenever he is pushed into corner he gains new permanent over-powered skills which he can use any time.
"oh shit,i feel so sad right now..oh wait, i also feel like i can burn things with my eyes all of a sudden" ........ "damn,the situation is really messed up,but wait? cant i just twist,turn,bend or even juggle these flames?i even named it enton all of a sudden,i feel like i can do it" ............
"damn now im really gonna die.. but wait ..why cant i just summon a hawk?i mean, it really looks good,seriously,it wouldnt look that good with anyone else but me.pop out off my ass already you new super cool thing"

[tobeulp]

Actual combat stimulates (or forces) the brain to invent new things, and teaches one to apply the right tools at the right times. These are vital things that you cannot learn from training itself - you'll have to go out there and fight.



Funny on commenting on my scenario let me rephrase it so Sasuke trained for 2 days in that gap it is still imbalance to learn the Raiton Armor in that span..... That is just an example on my view on the abnormal way sasuke powered up.... But I think this is the best way to describe it

If the situation were reversed, Sasuke would have cheaply mastered Kyuubi 10 seconds after Mizuki told him about it

Techniques can be learned in battle but techniques should not be mastered in battle in an instant.... Sasuke only casted Susano one time then after that he already mastered it and level it up in the next fight....

[Ryr]

Techniques can be learned in battle but techniques should not be mastered in battle in an instant.....

You can if you have what it takes.

How do you think I always come up with overpowering counter-arguments? Hints: I do not write 10 essays every day.

[hakuthehedgehog]

You can if you have what it takes.

How do you think I always come up with overpowering counter-arguments? Hints: I do not write 10 essays every day.

You can't compare argumenting with shooting flames out of eyes.
Seriously, the main thing reason of why MS is so cheap is because it saves Sasuke's life in a instant and he becomes many times stronger than he was before.
It's like a fat kid suddently jumping 10 cm longer than he could and dodge a bullet >.<

[Rikudou King]

Sasuke learn the Snake technique from Oro so he learn something from Oro and I don't think that only the Snake technique he only acquired...

So certainly the awakening part is a free gift ^^ From what has been shown, Sasuke was able to use those snake abilities because he absorbed Orochimaru, Not because he learn anything.


With that being said that Sasuke rely heavily on the MS because of the type of enemies he face makes Sasuke not that Genius.... Because Itachi didn't rely on his MS he rely on his jutsu and technique.... What kage level opponents have Itachi faced? When did Itachi go invade another village and country? All that we've seen from Itachi show that he's not the type to fight needlessly.


If Sasuke is truly a genius why need Oro to guide him? why need Madara? why need Itachi to awaken his powers? Sasuke is not that genius but Kishi just wants to Sasuke to still have an advantage on Naruto that is why he makes Sasuke rapid growth and it is garbage Kishi done that Because being a genius is worthless if you can't face equal opposition to measure yourself with. Sasuke stated this idea right before the Chuunin Exam. That's why he needed Orochimaru. Madara is needed because Sasuke is reckless on his own and needs fast transport. And Sasuke wasn't fighting Itachi to awaken anything.

It's been stated multiple times how Sasuke is a genius. Naruto's weaker because he doesn't do any actual combat training. Sage Mode is the only time Naruto fought against another person for training and even then it was only for a short while. Add to take the fact that Naruto has yet to face a stronger opponent without being saved, And how are you gonna expect him to grow. The difference between the two is that Sasuke has seen his weaknesses, While Naruto has never had to face his. Thus Sasuke is stronger for it. Not to mention the whole theme of the series requires Naruto to always be weaker then Sasuke.


Techniques can be learned in battle but techniques should not be mastered in battle in an instant.... Sasuke only casted Susano one time then after that he already mastered it and level it up in the next fight.... Umm, Naruto has done that too. Kage Bunshin, Naruto Rendan, Rasengan. How are you gonna fault Sasuke for mastering a technique that requires him to do nothing but be fine with Naruto mastering techniques that require work?

[M3J]

Techniques can be learned in battle but techniques should not be mastered in battle in an instant.... Sasuke only casted Susano one time then after that he already mastered it and level it up in the next fight....

Naruto's actually mastered techniques in an instant. He mastered rasengan, Uzumaki Naruto rendan (which he used the first time in battle against Kiba), Kyuubi, and even kuchiyose.
He didn't master it though. And even though he did "level" it up, Susano'o still broke, still had weakness. And it wasn't even complete until Sasuke and Kakashi faced off, which even then, it disappeared within few seconds.

Sasuke is a genius. It makes sense he can use the jutsu almost quickly enough, master it almost quickly enough. He can quickly understand how the jutsu works, and he tries out new stuff, takes a risk. He didn't know whether he could do Amaterasu, Susano'o, or control Amaterasu, but he still tried. Granted, first time it wasn't good, but he learned and did better second time.
Naruto is a supposed idiot. He can't even remember what Kakashi told him before they started training. Yet he added an element to rasengan, which Kakashi and Minato couldn't do, despite them being genius. Minato and Kakashi created at least one jutsu of their own, were hailed as genius, yet they couldn't add their element to rasengan. Does that mean Naruto got free powerup or whatever? We didn't even see him complete rasenshuriken or actually use it during training for Sage Mode, as we didn't see Sasuke get hawk summoning. Free powerup?
Everyone has stated Sasuke's a genius. It's why Orochimaru desired him, why Madara wanted him, why the girls were attracted to him. It makes sense his powerups were result of him working hard and intelligently figuring out how to use it.
He's not the only one to get "free" powerups. Kakashi, Sharingan, Mangekyo Sharingan? Naruto and the Kyuubi?

[hakuthehedgehog]

Umm, Naruto has done that too. Kage Bunshin, Naruto Rendan, Rasengan. How are you gonna fault Sasuke for mastering a technique that requires him to do nothing but be fine with Naruto mastering techniques that require work?

You've nailed it right there, the fact that the MS requires absolutely no work is the reason why it is so broken and cheap, specially because the techniques are so damn overpowering.

Also, Naruto mastered Rasengan after training, and he trained for a variation of KB for three years until he had enough chakra to actually push the use of the technique.

[jdw]

Naruto's actually mastered techniques in an instant. He mastered rasengan, Uzumaki Naruto rendan (which he used the first time in battle against Kiba), Kyuubi, and even kuchiyose.

LMAO! Naruto mastered Rasengan over time, not in an instant, and he still cannot do it without clones (only did it with Kyuubi at VOTE). The rendan wasn't even a level up, he just coordinated kicks and punches, something he has been doing forever. Naruto has not mastered Kyuubi to any extent, and Naruto summoned tadpoles for a while before summoning bunta at life or death using some Kyuubi chakra, and summoned a tiny frog during the Sannin fight, getting laughed at by Oro and Kabuto for having no talent. In part I, Naruto was only able to get the frog he wanted on ocasion, not every time.

[M3J]

He wasn't able to use rasengan though. Every time he tried, he failed until we saw him do it against Kabuto, successfully. He did what Sasuke did- find out a way to beat his weakness- concentrating on forming chakra and holding it at same time- and used it successfully.
But he didn't do it to that extent until he saw Sasuke use his version of the rendan. Can you honestly say Naruto would have used that combo if it weren't for Sasuke?
Okay, I messed up. I didn't mean master Kyuubi, but he was able to summon it at will like he did when Jiraiya dropped him, and when he was fighting Neji. Naruto could use the Kyuubi at will when he wanted.
He was able to use kuchiyose, even if he couldn't summon the toad he wanted. And against Gaara, he got the toad he wanted.

And Sasuke's usage of Mangekyo Sharingan does affect him. It's not necessarily a free powerup as it causes him to go blind. MS does require work, as Sasuke showed and Madara stated. It's why he sent Sasuke to the Summit and made Zetsu reveal Sasuke's location. And despite having MS, Sasuke still got owned by Killerbee and got kinda (or fully) owned by Raikage. And he didn't defeat Danzou with MS (yes, i know he used it, and yes I know it's the main reason he survived), he used basic genjutsu.

[jdw]

He wasn't able to use rasengan though. Every time he tried, he failed until we saw him do it against Kabuto, successfully. He did what Sasuke did- find out a way to beat his weakness- concentrating on forming chakra and holding it at same time- and used it successfully.
But he didn't do it to that extent until he saw Sasuke use his version of the rendan. Can you honestly say Naruto would have used that combo if it weren't for Sasuke?
Okay, I messed up. I didn't mean master Kyuubi, but he was able to summon it at will like he did when Jiraiya dropped him, and when he was fighting Neji. Naruto could use the Kyuubi at will when he wanted.
He was able to use kuchiyose, even if he couldn't summon the toad he wanted. And against Gaara, he got the toad he wanted.

And Sasuke's usage of Mangekyo Sharingan does affect him. It's not necessarily a free powerup as it causes him to go blind. MS does require work, as Sasuke showed and Madara stated. It's why he sent Sasuke to the Summit and made Zetsu reveal Sasuke's location. And despite having MS, Sasuke still got owned by Killerbee and got kinda (or fully) owned by Raikage. And he didn't defeat Danzou with MS (yes, i know he used it, and yes I know it's the main reason he survived), he used basic genjutsu.

Getting the wrong thing isn't mastering Kuchiyose. He knew the principle but was failing at using the jutsu properly during practice.That isn't mastering Kuchiyose. If I stood in front of a target throwing a kunai at a bullseye, an I missed by a lot and killed a lady carrying groceries by accident, I have learned how to throw but I am not a master of throwing a kunai, am I? While Naruto did get the toad he wanted on occasion, that is not mastering Kuchiyose.

Saying Naruto mastered Rasengan instantly doesn't make sense. He had been practicing it and gaining experience for quite some time, practicing into all different times of the night, passing out, burning his hands, etc. He learned stage by stage until he put the completed jutsu together. He put in significant work and everyone knows it, including you. There was no instant mastery.

[Rikudou King]

You've nailed it right there, the fact that the MS requires absolutely no work is the reason why it is so broken and cheap, specially because the techniques are so damn overpowering. But MS does require work. The user has to be strong enough in the first place in order to gain it and then they had to deal with the cost that comes afterward. Anyhow, The techniques are only as good as the user, As demonstrated by Sasuke in his last few battles. Amaterasu and Tsukuyomi are anything but broken and Susanoo isn't cheap. The pain it causes mean that Sauske can only hold it for a few moments. If it had been Sasuke suddenly godmoding people as soon as he got MS, Then you would have a point, But that's not what has been happening at all. He has had two close wins and one lost since gaining MS, Which is hardly different from the way he fought in the past.


Also, Naruto mastered Rasengan after training, and he trained for a variation of KB for three years until he had enough chakra to actually push the use of the technique. Naruto was unable to use Rasengan in battle until the fight with Kabuto and he was able to create Kage Bunshins against Mizuki at most hours after learning the technique. Both Naruto and Sasuke met the requirements to use their techniques before their actual fights, But couldn't do it until they were actually in the fights. So it's unfair to fault Sasuke for using Susanoo, A summoning called forth with just a thought, And not Naruto.

[darkprince0521]

OK. i am lazy enough to not read all the posts. so i'll just post my opinion only.

what does sasuke do in his fights now? use MS for always? yes, he does that. from where the MS did come? because Itachi choose to die by sasuke? so i think it is logical enough to say that MS was a gift. now comes the jutsu for MS, if MS is a gift, so are the jutsu. end of story.

then there is the other powers of sharingan. yes, we have seen many bloodlines with various abilities. but none of those has the ability to steal the jutsu from other people. then there is the predicting power of sharingan. wasn't it a sudden power up? and then sasuke coped with the power in matter of seconds. great way to show his genius, but it was too much BS for me. then there is the power of sharingan to see through any genjutsu. actually every powers of sharingan is a free power up, whether you like it or not.

it surely is different from the power of other bloodlines. no other bloodline has this much powers. and someone has to train hard to use the powers of bloodline except doujutsu bloodlines. we know nothing much about rinnegan, byakugan has the ability to see chakra and 359 degrees at once, is also able to see through objects. while sharingan has the ability to make the opponents slower, can see through any genjutsu, can copy any movement made by others. all of this comes without even training.

so yeah, sharingan power ups are free gift and so are sasuke's power ups.



But MS does require work. The user has to be strong enough in the first place in order to gain it and then they had to deal with the cost that comes afterward. Anyhow, The techniques are only as good as the user, As demonstrated by Sasuke in his last few battles. Amaterasu and Tsukuyomi are anything but broken and Susanoo isn't cheap. The pain it causes mean that Sauske can only hold it for a few moments. If it had been Sasuke suddenly godmoding people as soon as he got MS, Then you would have a point, But that's not what has been happening at all. He has had two close wins and one lost since gaining MS, Which is hardly different from the way he fought in the past.

that would have been applicable if sasuke wasn't using susanoo always. he couldn't bear the starin of susanoo, yet in the very next battle he started using it from the very beginning. if the body pain caused any problem for sasuke, then i would have accepted that.

same goes for other MS techniques. he can barely see through his eyes, yet he used susanoo and pinpointed kakashi without problem. then used a chidori and clashed it with rasengan. all of this was after it was shown that he can barely see. great.


Naruto was unable to use Rasengan in battle until the fight with Kabuto and he was able to create Kage Bunshins against Mizuki at most hours after learning the technique.

and there was a reason for that. he used his one hand to hold Kabuto. and then planned to use the rasengan on Kabuto using a kage bunshi. see, that was the first time naruto used kage bunshin to create rasengan. remember the three steps to learn rasengan? naruto used two hands to pop the water balloon. so when he was using kage bunshin, he had three hands to use, and that's how he was able to do the technique. my point is, if he used kage bunshin after the bet with Tsunade, he would have learnt to use the rasengan long before the fight began.

as for learning kage bunshin, though it is not explained, it is very possible that kage bunshin technique is close to the normal bunshin technique with which naruto was pretty familiar. only difference is kage bunshin requires tons of chakra (which was an easy task for naruto) and bunshin requires precise control of chakra (which was impossible for naruto). the only reason naruto couldn't do bunshin was because of low chakra requirement. so it's not a surprise that he learned to use it only in matters of hours.


Both Naruto and Sasuke met the requirements to use their techniques before their actual fights, But couldn't do it until they were actually in the fights. So it's unfair to fault Sasuke for using Susanoo, A summoning called forth with just a thought, And not Naruto.

about susanoo? if someone develops a technique from scratch to sky scrapper only in matter of hours, then it is stupid to think that everyone will buy that.

[Exodi]

.what does sasuke do in his fights now? use MS for always? yes, he does that. from where the MS did come? because Itachi choose to die by sasuke? so i think it is logical enough to say that MS was a gift. now comes the jutsu for MS, if MS is a gift, so are the jutsu. end of story.

Itachi only gave Sasuke MS after that long, difficult battle. I think it's safe to say that Itachi would not implanted his techniques if Sasuke couldn't beat him. Also, Sasuke's MS came from his realization that he killed perhaps the most important person to him. Nothing about that says "gift" to me.


then there is the other powers of sharingan. yes, we have seen many bloodlines with various abilities. but none of those has the ability to steal the jutsu from other people. then there is the predicting power of sharingan. wasn't it a sudden power up? and then sasuke coped with the power in matter of seconds. great way to show his genius, but it was too much BS for me. then there is the power of sharingan to see through any genjutsu. actually every powers of sharingan is a free power up, whether you like it or not.

The Sharingan is a natural ability. If one natural ability is a "free power up", than so is everything else. Examples:

Shino's bugs
Shikamaru's intelligence
Neji's Byakugan

The Sharingan's ability to predict and allow the user to copy movements isn't sudden at all. We've been seeing that since the beginning of the manga. For Sasuke, there are plenty of reasons why he could have immediately gotten used to it after it fully activated in his fight with Naruto in the VotE.

1. He is an Uchiha, so using the Sharingan would generally come easier. In fact, it does. Kakashi has to always cover his so it doesn't use up chakra.

2. He's an excellent taijutsu user.

3. He knew how Naruto fights, since they were on the same team and did missions together and whatnot.




it surely is different from the power of other bloodlines. no other bloodline has this much powers. and someone has to train hard to use the powers of bloodline except doujutsu bloodlines. we know nothing much about rinnegan, byakugan has the ability to see chakra and 359 degrees at once, is also able to see through objects. while sharingan has the ability to make the opponents slower, can see through any genjutsu, can copy any movement made by others. all of this comes without even training.

You could say that the Sharingan itself takes a lot of training and work to require. And I don't get why people assume the characters don't train unless we see them or hear them talk about it.






that would have been applicable if sasuke wasn't using susanoo always. he couldn't bear the starin of susanoo, yet in the very next battle he started using it from the very beginning. if the body pain caused any problem for sasuke, then i would have accepted that.

I'm on a killing spree of sorts. Should I waste time using weaker abilities, or should I ensure that the objects of my vengeance are eradicated promptly? Remember that I'm seemingly beginning to lose my mind. :D


same goes for other MS techniques. he can barely see through his eyes, yet he used susanoo and pinpointed kakashi without problem. then used a chidori and clashed it with rasengan. all of this was after it was shown that he can barely see. great.

We all know the Sharingan can see chakra.
Also, Sasuke isn't so blind that he can't make out certain features.

Itachi's eyesight was pretty much gone, and look at what he could do.




and there was a reason for that. he used his one hand to hold Kabuto. and then planned to use the rasengan on Kabuto using a kage bunshi. see, that was the first time naruto used kage bunshin to create rasengan. remember the three steps to learn rasengan? naruto used two hands to pop the water balloon. so when he was using kage bunshin, he had three hands to use, and that's how he was able to do the technique. my point is, if he used kage bunshin after the bet with Tsunade, he would have learnt to use the rasengan long before the fight began.

as for learning kage bunshin, though it is not explained, it is very possible that kage bunshin technique is close to the normal bunshin technique with which naruto was pretty familiar. only difference is kage bunshin requires tons of chakra (which was an easy task for naruto) and bunshin requires precise control of chakra (which was impossible for naruto). the only reason naruto couldn't do bunshin was because of low chakra requirement. so it's not a surprise that he learned to use it only in matters of hours.

So basically, Naruto's lack of chakra control and lower intelligence make it ok for him to learn a very advanced technique in a seemingly unreasonable time. Cool.

But Sasuke acquiring techniques while being a generally more well-rounded ninja is not ok. Cool.




about susanoo? if someone develops a technique from scratch to sky scrapper only in matter of hours, then it is stupid to think that everyone will buy that.

We don't really know how Susanoo works anyway. Maybe that's how it develops: through use. If you keep doing something over and over again, why should you get worse at it instead of better (especially if you are already really smart to begin with)?

[Rikudou King]

what does sasuke do in his fights now? use MS for always? yes, he does that. from where the MS did come? because Itachi choose to die by sasuke? so i think it is logical enough to say that MS was a gift. now comes the jutsu for MS, if MS is a gift, so are the jutsu. end of story. How does he "use MS always"? He used it in three fights since he got it and in two of those fights after he used his other techniques and were about to lose. And Itachi made Sasuke work very hard in order to reach his level and gain MS.


then there is the other powers of sharingan. yes, we have seen many bloodlines with various abilities. but none of those has the ability to steal the jutsu from other people. then there is the predicting power of sharingan. wasn't it a sudden power up? and then sasuke coped with the power in matter of seconds. great way to show his genius, but it was too much BS for me. then there is the power of sharingan to see through any genjutsu. actually every powers of sharingan is a free power up, whether you like it or not. All ninjas have the ability to copy the techniques of others. The Sharingan just has an easier time at it. And the prediction ability was shown long before Sasuke gain it. The Sharingan has the ability to see chakra, It's not hard to see how it would be able to counter genjutsu. There's nothing free about it, Since it takes effort in order to awaken.


it surely is different from the power of other bloodlines. no other bloodline has this much powers. and someone has to train hard to use the powers of bloodline except doujutsu bloodlines. we know nothing much about rinnegan, byakugan has the ability to see chakra and 359 degrees at once, is also able to see through objects. while sharingan has the ability to make the opponents slower, can see through any genjutsu, can copy any movement made by others. all of this comes without even training. A bunch of Bloodline Limits have strength equal to the Sharingan. Kimimaro's bones, Nagato's Rinnegan, Haku's Hyoton, Yamato's Mokuton. And both Nagato and Haku were able to use their Bloodline Limits without knowing anything about them. You're completely ignoring the fact that the Sharingan's abilities are useless if you can't keep up with your opponent. Sasuke had to train hard to gain the speed to make the most of his Sharingan.


that would have been applicable if sasuke wasn't using susanoo always. he couldn't bear the starin of susanoo, yet in the very next battle he started using it from the very beginning. if the body pain caused any problem for sasuke, then i would have accepted that. Sasuke was able to use Susanoo again because he was healed by Karin. Yet he still had to release it after a while because of the pain. Once he brought it up again in the fight, It was still held for only a little while before he became too tired to keep using it. The relation between Susanoo and the pain it gives Sasuke have been shown.


same goes for other MS techniques. he can barely see through his eyes, yet he used susanoo and pinpointed kakashi without problem. then used a chidori and clashed it with rasengan. all of this was after it was shown that he can barely see. great. Sasuke can see fine out of his eyes. He's not totally blind yet. And even then, The Sharingan can see chakra. He wouldn't need prefect sight in order to track Kakashi and Naruto. We were given a preview with Itachi, Who was father along in blindness, Being able to see because of that ability.


and there was a reason for that. he used his one hand to hold Kabuto. and then planned to use the rasengan on Kabuto using a kage bunshi. see, that was the first time naruto used kage bunshin to create rasengan. remember the three steps to learn rasengan? naruto used two hands to pop the water balloon. so when he was using kage bunshin, he had three hands to use, and that's how he was able to do the technique. my point is, if he used kage bunshin after the bet with Tsunade, he would have learnt to use the rasengan long before the fight began. The argument was that it was unfair for Sasuke to be able to master a brand new technique in the middle of battle. Naruto did the same with the Rasengan. He had no idea before the fight that he could use a clone to help him hold the form. He was unable to use the Rasengan when he went into the fight. So if Sasuke isn't allow to master something in the middle of a fight, Then Naruto should be held at the same rule.


as for learning kage bunshin, though it is not explained, it is very possible that kage bunshin technique is close to the normal bunshin technique with which naruto was pretty familiar. only difference is kage bunshin requires tons of chakra (which was an easy task for naruto) and bunshin requires precise control of chakra (which was impossible for naruto). the only reason naruto couldn't do bunshin was because of low chakra requirement. so it's not a surprise that he learned to use it only in matters of hours. Naruto sucked at the normal clone technique. He was unable to do it. So there's no reason he should have been able to do the shadow clones if he was using the normal clone technique as a base for his training. Kage Bunshin still requires a person to mold their chakra and was complicated enough that most ninjas couldn't do it, So there's still no excuse.


about susanoo? if someone develops a technique from scratch to sky scrapper only in matter of hours, then it is stupid to think that everyone will buy that. It's a summoning. There's no reason to think it shouldn't be able to be brought out fully when the user wants it to be.

[tobeulp]

Why some of my post are deleted ???
Why some people compare the techniques of Naruto that it is like they are mastered quickly do you even read the manga??... Naruto didn't master any technique in an instant you saying using KB? he sucks using it right?Rasengan? It takes time before he actually can manage to use it... Kyubi? He didn't even master it yet....
Do you guys will not react if Naruto didn't even have sage mode then beat Pain because he learn the Sage mode while fighting him?
Even with being an Uchiha and having an MS Sasuke's growth is abnormal just admit it ^^.... This is like a 7 month yr old genetically athletic child just learn how to walk then the next day he is sprinting already...

[Exodi]

Why some of my post are deleted ???
Why some people compare the techniques of Naruto that it is like they are mastered quickly do you even read the manga??... Naruto didn't master any technique in an instant you saying using KB? he sucks using it right?Rasengan? It takes time before he actually can manage to use it... Kyubi? He didn't even master it yet....
Do you guys will not react if Naruto didn't even have sage mode then beat Pain because he learn the Sage mode while fighting him?
Even with being an Uchiha and having an MS Sasuke's growth is abnormal just admit it ^^.... This is like a 7 month yr old genetically athletic child just learn how to walk then the next day he is sprinting already...

Naruto sucks at Kage Bunshin and Rasengan?
LMAO


Why is Sasuke's growth with MS abnormal? How can you say it's abnormal if you don't have something "normal" to compare it to?

Naruto did almost the same thing in learning Fuuton Rasengan. (learning something "abnormally", that is)

The only difference between the two is that Naruto did it while training in a controlled environment and Sasuke did it while fighting constantly.