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Kaoz
December 29, 2009, 01:37 PM
Just to keep things easier, here is a new thread for any character discussions regarding the league.

1. Niou:

V1:
Niou (7, 7, 7, 8, 29) 35
All-rounder

-Guess Who? [Effect]:
When playing Doubles, Niou can copy the Effects and Auras of his partner.

-Illusion [Effect]:
When playing Singles, Niou can choose one player and copy that player’s stats at minus -1 to each of those stat and one of that player’s Effects such that their bases stats do not exceed +7 of his own. If that Effect would add points to any of Niou’s stats, the points are not added instead.


V2:
Niou (7, 7, 7, 8, 29) 35
All-rounder

-Guess Who? [Effect]:
When playing Doubles, Niou can copy the Effects and Auras of his partner.

-Illusion [Effect]:
When playing Singles, Niou can choose one player and copy that player’s stats at minus -1 to each of those stat. Also Niou can copy one Effect OR Aura from the chosen player. If points were added through an Effect or Aura, minus 2 of that points are added instead.


Discuss, please.


--------


So, for the sake of simplicity, I decided to display all the changes that were either suggested or accepted but not yet done here:

Any suggestions for season 3 can be viewed here.


All characters/mechanics that were acctepted are put in here.
When a character/mechanic remains in the suggestions spoiler without a comment, it will be moved here.

Season 2 Discussion (http://mangahelpers.com/forum/showthread.php?p=1870685#post1870685)


Please be aware that most of these changes are meant to be implemented in season 2. With this being said, according to the characters' new abilities, their base stats and/or value might change.

javimgol
December 29, 2009, 01:55 PM
V2 is joke
Come one, is the most broken thing I've ever seen in my life. He's almost as best as Ryoga and Kazuya, better than Irie and Oni...but costing half of the points

V1 is a true monster, and a bit broken, but it's Niou and everybody loves him

Kaoz
December 29, 2009, 02:02 PM
I don't want to press the matter but I'd like to set on a version one hour before we start picking. Is this alright?

Jyten
December 29, 2009, 02:21 PM
V2 is joke
Come one, is the most broken thing I've ever seen in my life. He's almost as best as Ryoga and Kazuya, better than Irie and Oni...but costing half of the points

V1 is a true monster, and a bit broken, but it's Niou and everybody loves him

V2 he can only copy up to Tachibana 25+7 = 32? Sorry we should have said the sum of his base stats cannot exceed 7 instead of just +7.

Sherlock Holmes
December 29, 2009, 03:05 PM
How about....this v3?


-Illusion [Effect]:
-Illusion [Effect]:
When playing Singles, Niou can choose one player and copy that player’s stats at minus -1 to each of those stat. Also Niou can copy one Effect OR Aura from the chosen player.If that Effect would add points to any of Niou’s stats, the points are not added instead.


Can still copy auras, but can't get points from it.

Jyten
December 29, 2009, 03:20 PM
How about....this v3?



Can still copy auras, but can't get points from it.

We could do that. Plus we do need to make a decision here soon so...I'm up for anything now. Granted version one was way weaker...he could only get essentially a +3 to all his stats using his feat and then with an effect just a wee-bit more.

Sherlock Holmes
December 29, 2009, 03:25 PM
Or maybe v4:

-Illusion [Effect]:
-Illusion [Effect]:
When playing Singles, Niou can choose one player and copy that player’s stats at minus -1 to each of those stat. He cannot copy anyone stronger than Tezuka. Also Niou can copy one Effect OR Aura from the chosen player.If that Effect would add points to any of Niou’s stats, Niou only receives 75% of the increase.

I think that V4 is the most accurate, manga wise, and not too broken. But it's your game, you guys decide.

Kaoz
December 29, 2009, 03:34 PM
V3 would probably be the one that follows the manga the most so far.

Let's hear what everyone else has to say though. We still have about 18 hours to decide.


Are there any objections with Tezuka's new version of PoHW (or any other abilities)?
[hr]
Actually, we have no idea whether he could copy Sanada or Echizen but maybe we could agree on 50% of the points are added?

Sherlock Holmes
December 29, 2009, 03:42 PM
I think he could copy Sanada or Yukimura, since he mentioned in the OVA that "he wouldn't lose to either Sanada or Yukimura as long as he has his illusions" but...eh.

I think that Tezuka is a good place to draw the line, since that's the most advanced player we saw him copy. Also, I can agree on 50%.

It's your call.

Also, I think that Niou shouldn't get -1 in his stats when copying players weaker than him, right?

Like, say whoever had Niou got drunk and decided to make him copy Shinji. Would he be weaker than the real Shinji? That makes no sense lol.
[hr]
Also, Tezuka's ability is perfect, in my opinion. No need to nerf or make it more overpowered.

Kaoz
December 29, 2009, 03:47 PM
Hmm, that's right...

Maybe this:

V5
-Illusion [Effect]:
When playing Singles, Niou can choose one player and copy that player’s stats. If that player's base total exceeds Niou's by more than 20 points, all stats are acopied at minus -2. Also Niou can copy one Effect OR Aura from the chosen player. If that Effect would increase/decrease the stats of any player, only have the points are added/substracted.

Jyten
December 29, 2009, 03:57 PM
Hmm, that's right...

Maybe this:

V5
-Illusion [Effect]:
When playing Singles, Niou can choose one player and copy that player’s stats. If that player's base total exceeds Niou's by more than 20 points, all stats are acopied at minus -2. Also Niou can copy one Effect OR Aura from the chosen player. If that Effect would increase/decrease the stats of any player, only have the points are added/substracted.

Other than 20 being a bit high. I think it should be a number just in case we ACTUALLY GET A MATCH IN SHIN...but you know, at this rate it may never happen. :p Sorry I had to.

Do you mean 10 instead of 20? Other wise at 20 he can copy Irie and Oni...I don't think he can...

Also, Tezuka looks good!

Kaoz
December 29, 2009, 04:02 PM
No, he couldn't. Oni has abase total of 50 and Niou's is 29.
29+20=49 =>no copy

Sherlock Holmes
December 29, 2009, 04:41 PM
V5 looks good, but you have to word it a little better. You made it look like he can copy Tezuka and co perfectly. Which I'd love to, but I have to be fair >.>

Did you mean something like:


-Illusion [Effect]:
When playing Singles, Niou can choose one player and copy that player’s stats. If that player's base total exceeds Niou's by up to 10 points, all stats are copied at minus 1. If that player's base total exceeds Niou's by up to 20 points, all stats are copied at minus 2. Also Niou can copy one Effect OR Aura from the chosen player. If that Effect would increase/decrease the stats of any player, Niou only gets 60% of its original effect

That way, he can copy up to Atobe with -1 in all his stats, Tezuka up to Echizen with -2 in all his stats, and can copy techniques but in a not-so-broken kind of manner. I put 60% so that it's more effective than Muga no Kyochi, but not by much.

...Not sure if I ended up making him more broken trying to fix him though, so feel free to ignore me.

Kaoz
December 29, 2009, 05:16 PM
Nah, it looks pretty good, imo. Let's see what everyone else has to say on the matter.

Also, if someone finds any more abilities that he thinks should be changed, please note that no changes will be made in the time of picking.

Jyten
December 29, 2009, 06:19 PM
Nah, it looks pretty good, imo. Let's see what everyone else has to say on the matter.

Also, if someone finds any more abilities that he thinks should be changed, please note that no changes will be made in the time of picking.

I think he looks good and my ability to do math falters more and more as we go about the day. Second day back into work after the holiday's has been a bit brutal.

Sherlock Holmes
December 29, 2009, 09:43 PM
About doubles:


Level 2:
Bonus: +4 points are added to the pair’s total, L1 and L2 Formations can be used

Preset Pairs: Kita/Nitobe; Momoshiro/Kaidoh; Koharu/Hitouji; Renji/Kirihara; Niou/Yagyuu; Kamio/Ibu; Gin/Kenya
Renji/Kirihara and Niou/Yagyuu should be level 3. None of them has ever lost in doubles, and they could DEFINITELY take on the Silver Pair. Still, I understand why the silver pair is lv 4.

But I think those 2 pairs should definitely be level 3.

Question, how many characters are we going to be allowed to pick tomorrow? Only one?
[hr]
Also, a question about pair levels.
Any character combinations not listed in there, are they assumed to be level 1?
[hr]
Also, why PM you instead of just posting on the topic? If we post it, we can keep track of what characters have already been picked, and that way we won't try to pick someone who has already been picked. You know, to speed things up.

KuwabaraTheMan
December 30, 2009, 01:16 AM
About doubles:Renji/Kirihara and Niou/Yagyuu should be level 3. None of them has ever lost in doubles, and they could DEFINITELY take on the Silver Pair. Still, I understand why the silver pair is lv 4.

I think Level 2 makes more sense, because neither of those are really 'normal' pairs. The higher levels should be for doubles pairs which play together all the time.



Also, why PM you instead of just posting on the topic? If we post it, we can keep track of what characters have already been picked, and that way we won't try to pick someone who has already been picked. You know, to speed things up.

Yeah, I think posting would probably work more quickly than PMing.

Kaoz
December 30, 2009, 04:33 AM
About doubles:


Renji/Kirihara and Niou/Yagyuu should be level 3. None of them has ever lost in doubles, and they could DEFINITELY take on the Silver Pair. Still, I understand why the silver pair is lv 4.

But I think those 2 pairs should definitely be level 3.

Question, how many characters are we going to be allowed to pick tomorrow? Only one?
<hr noshade size="1">
Also, a question about pair levels.
Any character combinations not listed in there, are they assumed to be level 1?
<hr noshade size="1">
Also, why PM you instead of just posting on the topic? If we post it, we can keep track of what characters have already been picked, and that way we won't try to pick someone who has already been picked. You know, to speed things up.

On Doubles, I agree with whatb Kuwabra said, that's the reaso they are only L2.

Every Pair, that is not listed has a level of 0.

To tell the truth, I just noticed I fucked up with the timezones and switched voicA and Ken with you guys. It shouldn't be too much of a problem though as we can still say:
"Player X chose Y minutes after the pick started."
It just takes slightly longer like that.
[hr]
To avoid double picking, I'll post the chosen characters in my first post alongside:
"chosen X minutes after pick started". I apologize for this and hope that we can do it nevertheless.

Sherlock Holmes
December 30, 2009, 04:43 AM
Yeah, no problem. Still don't understand why we can't just post the choices though.

*prepares pm with "Niou" on it*

I'm sending this as soon as the selection starts. I have a laptop and a wifi stick, so even though I'm going skating tomorrow, I'm still gonna be able to pick him! HA!

...I am overly competitive, aren't I?

Kaoz
December 30, 2009, 05:02 AM
Well, I had a reason for that, back when I came up with it but somehow I can't seem to remember.

Also, I think I can guess your picks (2 by the way, did I answer that before?).

Well, I suppose you are a bit, on the other hand, I'd do the same.

Sherlock Holmes
December 30, 2009, 05:14 AM
2?
Hmm...I know what my two are gonna be.
Niou/Yagyuu. I can say this with confidence because I know I will be the first one to pick.

Kaoz
December 30, 2009, 06:44 AM
I thought as much.

If everyone is like this, I'll get the last pick.

javimgol
December 30, 2009, 06:48 AM
I like last Sherlock version of Nioh, with a few objections
Illusion [Effect]:
When playing Singles, Niou can choose one player and copy that player’s stats. If that player's base total exceeds Niou's by up to 10 points, all stats are copied at minus 1. If that player's base total exceeds Niou's by up to 20 points, all stats are copied at minus 3. Also Niou can copy one Effect OR Aura from the chosen player. If that Effect would increase/decrease the stats of any player, Niou only gets 50% of its original effect

Why? Without this changes, Nioh could be a 62's Ryoga!!! with Twist Serve and Rising Shot.
So, Nioh would beat almost everyone of the High Tier, except Big 4 Oni,Kazuya, Irie and Ryoga. He would beat Ryoma,Yukimira, Sanada, Tezuka, etc!


You should update the other thread

So, we send our chosen players in a PM or in the other thread?

And I'll be faster XD

As I said, there is an absolutely broken ability.I won´t tell you till the season has started :p, but I think in a month it will be transferred to [Aura] or makin' it impossible to copy, taking into account that Muga/Moujuu could copy it

Kaoz
December 30, 2009, 06:53 AM
Send me a pm, I'd say.

Also, if you keep saying those kind of things, we might figure out which one it is.

Now, has anyone objections on Sherlock's version of Niou?

javimgol
December 30, 2009, 06:55 AM
Send me a pm, I'd say.

Also, if you keep saying those kind of things, we might figure out which one it is.

Now, has anyone objections on Sherlock's version of Niou?
See my ^post
Well, let`s be fair
It's Krauser's -Crucify [Final Effect]:
If the opponent’s Speed is within 2 points of Krauser’s, Krauser automatically wins. (Singles only)
Anyone with Muga/Mugyyu can copy it. And with that, 90% of the matches VS people in their same level are automatically wins

Let's see what players would win VS others who cost more than him with Muga+Crucify
-Chitose would beat Tachibana,Fuji
-Tachibana would beat Atobe with Rondo,Tezuka, Sanada
-Kirihara would beat Tachibana,Atobe using Rondo, always VS Tezuka, Sanada and Ryoma
except with Ryoma's PoP
-Kamio would beat Yagyyu,Renji, Atobe with Ice World,Sanada with Rai, Ryoma!!
-Ishida would win VS Minami,Higashikata,Shinji,Kiraku,maybe VS Mizuki,Reiji,Kajimoto,Hitouji,Koharu,Ootori,Oishi,Momo,Kaidoh,Gin (LOL),Oshitari,Bunta,Fuji!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

You could just add that only Muga user can copy it

Kaoz
December 30, 2009, 07:20 AM
Hmm, thank you.
I'll change it, I suppose, afterall there is no one else who can do this, it seems.

javimgol
December 30, 2009, 07:41 AM
Hmm, thank you.
I'll change it, I suppose, afterall there is no one else who can do this, it seems.
The priorities are the change of Deus ex Machina Nioh and make Crucify impossible to copy if you have not Muga (Kirihara copied it in manga, remember), and impossible with Mugyyu, excpet if you want to make a SSJ Ishida and Kamio

Kaoz
December 30, 2009, 07:48 AM
When did Kirihara copy it? I can't remember at all.
Also, I'll change Niouh, if no one complains within 1 day.

Bowser
December 30, 2009, 08:34 AM
That cause he didn't copy it :D

javimgol
December 30, 2009, 08:41 AM
When did Kirihara copy it? I can't remember at all.
Sorry, you're right
Also, you have to edit Niou, remember

Illusion [Effect]:
When playing Singles, Niou can choose one player and copy that player’s stats. If that player's base total exceeds Niou's by up to 10 points, all stats are copied at minus 1. If that player's base total exceeds Niou's by up to 20 points, all stats are copied at minus 3. Also Niou can copy one Effect OR Aura from the chosen player. If that Effect would increase/decrease the stats of any player, Niou only gets 50% of its original effect

Kaoz
December 30, 2009, 08:55 AM
Yes, I remember but as as this one is a major subject, I wanted to hear some more opinions on the matter.
If no one puts something up against it, though, I'll change him tomorow.

Sherlock Holmes
December 30, 2009, 09:32 AM
Sorry, you're right
Also, you have to edit Niou, remember

Illusion [Effect]:
When playing Singles, Niou can choose one player and copy that player’s stats. If that player's base total exceeds Niou's by up to 10 points, all stats are copied at minus 1. If that player's base total exceeds Niou's by up to 20 points, all stats are copied at minus 3. Also Niou can copy one Effect OR Aura from the chosen player. If that Effect would increase/decrease the stats of any player, Niou only gets 50% of its original effect

3 points is overkill, and I'll show you why:



Niou (7, 7, 7, 8, 29) 35


Atobe (9, 9, 10, 11, 39) 45



Tezuka (8, 12, 9, 11, 40) 45

He would get 34 points if he copied Atobe. Now, if he copied Tezuka, he would only get...28. He would actually have LESS POINTS copying someone than he has normally.

2 points is better than 3.

Kaoz
December 30, 2009, 09:35 AM
Hey Sherlock, can you do me a favor and post your choices at +1 min. Otherwise, I'll really need a random number generator to determine who's first.

Also, I'd rather have -2 points than -3 on Niou, I suppose.

Jyten
December 30, 2009, 11:32 AM
Hey Sherlock, can you do me a favor and post your choices at +1 min. Otherwise, I'll really need a random number generator to determine who's first.

Also, I'd rather have -2 points than -3 on Niou, I suppose.

Wow, I am not fast enough. I think whatever version of Nioh we had at -2 was fine. I think -2 is a bit brutal but w/e.

Also, on the Crucify thing, did we ever come to a conclusion?

Kaoz
December 30, 2009, 01:23 PM
Wow, I am not fast enough. I think whatever version of Nioh we had at -2 was fine. I think -2 is a bit brutal but w/e.

Also, on the Crucify thing, did we ever come to a conclusion?

Yes, we settled on: Crucify cannot be copied.

javimgol
December 30, 2009, 03:27 PM
3 points is overkill, and I'll show you why:







He would get 34 points if he copied Atobe. Now, if he copied Tezuka, he would only get...28. He would actually have LESS POINTS copying someone than he has normally.

2 points is better than 3.

Right now there is no limit to Nioh copy
Illusion [Effect]:
When playing Singles, Niou can choose one player and copy that player’s stats. If that player's base total exceeds Niou's by up to 10 points, all stats are copied at minus 1. If that player's base total exceeds Niou's by up to 20 points, all stats are copied at minus 3. Also Niou can copy one Effect OR Aura from the chosen player. If that Effect would increase/decrease the stats of any player, Niou only gets 50% of its original effect
__________________

, so you can copy even Ryoga or Kazuya..Copying Ryoga you can be 70-12=58 points guy. The double of Niou's original amount, and still copy Twist Serve+Rising Shot!!!!!!!!
The only problem it's if your oponent nullifies effects (like my Irie and Shirashi) XD

Niou is the best character, accept it

Jyten
December 30, 2009, 03:33 PM
Right now there is no limit to Nioh copy
Illusion [Effect]:
When playing Singles, Niou can choose one player and copy that player’s stats. If that player's base total exceeds Niou's by up to 10 points, all stats are copied at minus 1. If that player's base total exceeds Niou's by up to 20 points, all stats are copied at minus 3. Also Niou can copy one Effect OR Aura from the chosen player. If that Effect would increase/decrease the stats of any player, Niou only gets 50% of its original effect
__________________

, so you can copy even Ryoga or Kazuya..Copying Ryoga you can be 70-12=58 points guy. The double of Niou's original amount, and still copy Twist Serve+Rising Shot!!!!!!!!
The only problem it's if your oponent nullifies effects (like my Irie and Shirashi) XD

Niou is the best character, accept it

Uhh if its only up to 20 then no he can't copy Ryoga or Kazuya...49 < 60 or 70? He can't even copy up to Oni?

Kaoz
December 30, 2009, 03:35 PM
Uhh if its only up to 20 then no he can't copy Ryoga or Kazuya...49 < 60 or 70? He can't even copy up to Oni?

Uh, that's right...
Maybe we can add that he copies any other character at minus -4 or something or that he can't copy their techniques, though.

Sherlock Holmes
December 30, 2009, 03:37 PM
I can start picking in 1 hour and 24 minutes right?
[hr]

Right now there is no limit to Nioh copy
Illusion [Effect]:
When playing Singles, Niou can choose one player and copy that player’s stats. If that player's base total exceeds Niou's by up to 10 points, all stats are copied at minus 1. If that player's base total exceeds Niou's by up to 20 points, all stats are copied at minus 3. Also Niou can copy one Effect OR Aura from the chosen player. If that Effect would increase/decrease the stats of any player, Niou only gets 50% of its original effect
__________________

, so you can copy even Ryoga or Kazuya..Copying Ryoga you can be 70-12=58 points guy. The double of Niou's original amount, and still copy Twist Serve+Rising Shot!!!!!!!!
The only problem it's if your oponent nullifies effects (like my Irie and Shirashi) XD

Niou is the best character, accept it
...Uh, Niou can't copy anyone who is 20 points stronger than him. Echizen is his limit, Oni is out of his world.

Jyten
December 30, 2009, 03:45 PM
I can start picking in 1 hour and 24 minutes right?
<hr noshade size="1">

...Uh, Niou can't copy anyone who is 20 points stronger than him. Echizen is his limit, Oni is out of his world.

Yeah, even though he he copied Echizen dang it'd be hard to take him seriously, I mean he's like 2 solid feet taller than Echizen. You'd have to be special to confuse the two. :p

I don't think he should be allowed to copy any of the high schoolers or Ryoga...that's just silly.

Sherlock Holmes
December 30, 2009, 03:48 PM
yeah. He also shouldn't be able to copy Sakuno. Since she's a girl and all. So yeah Jav, don't worry. The only reason he only gets -2 points when copying characters up to 20 points stronger than him is that...That's his limit. I can't go ahead and copy any of the high schoolers.

Kaoz
December 30, 2009, 03:51 PM
That's fine with me.

javimgol
December 30, 2009, 03:53 PM
Ok, if Ryoma is the limit, -2 is absolutely logic

Sherlock Holmes
December 30, 2009, 03:53 PM
...I messed up the timezones. Interesting. But still, thank you guys for not picking Niou. I thought one of you guys was going to get him so you could get an extremely unfair trade with me later haha.

Jyten
December 30, 2009, 03:53 PM
yeah. He also shouldn't be able to copy Sakuno. Since she's a girl and all. So yeah Jav, don't worry. The only reason he only gets -2 points when copying characters up to 20 points stronger than him is that...That's his limit. I can't go ahead and copy any of the high schoolers.

Agreed on Sakuno. Last time I mistook a guy for a girl. I couldn't eat for the rest of the day. I don't want any nightmares. :p

Kaoz
December 30, 2009, 04:02 PM
Well, than we agree on V5 with the limitations.
Can I change it now?

Also, I hope no one takes my characters away (this +1 h thing sucks, why didn't I give myself an unfair advantage... just kidding)

Sherlock Holmes
December 30, 2009, 04:11 PM
I don't get it, if everyone else already picked their characters, why do I have to wait?
What's the point of having a timezone if that forces me to pick after everyone else's first pick?

Jyten
December 30, 2009, 04:19 PM
Well, than we agree on V5 with the limitations.
Can I change it now?

Also, I hope no one takes my characters away (this +1 h thing sucks, why didn't I give myself an unfair advantage... just kidding)

I agree. Well I feel your pain. I'm on -7 time zone so, I'll make my choices an hour after you. :p Granted, I won't actually get to choose till like 10pm or a 11pm my time. So, don't wait for me.

Begins to pray I don't get stuck with Kevin... :p

javimgol
December 30, 2009, 04:23 PM
Well, than we agree on V5 with the limitations.
Can I change it now?

Also, I hope no one takes my characters away (this +1 h thing sucks, why didn't I give myself an unfair advantage... just kidding)
Yeah, but if you wait a bit more, you could take Golden Pair (the best of all MId Tier) and Krauser (with his legitim Crucifiction) without problems

But the best thing you could do, but this is only if you can, and choosing the last one, get one High Tier+ Bunta & Jackal + Golden Pair. If you have Bunta left and choose the last, you could get that Dream Team.

Kaoz
December 30, 2009, 04:24 PM
I don't get it, if everyone else already picked their characters, why do I have to wait?
What's the point of having a timezone if that forces me to pick after everyone else's first pick?

It doesn't. You might have seen the additional "+ X min" in everyone's team spoiler. That's how long everone took from their picking start to send his line-up. Basically, if you get below that time, you get the character.


I agree. Well I feel your pain. I'm on -7 time zone so, I'll make my choices an hour after you. :p Granted, I won't actually get to choose till like 10pm or a 11pm my time. So, don't wait for me.

Begins to pray I don't get stuck with Kevin... :p

You definetly won't get stuck with him (although he's better than last time). Remember, we have 20 High Tier characters to choose from and even if you were last, you still had 4 choices.

Jyten
December 30, 2009, 04:41 PM
It doesn't. You might have seen the additional "+ X min" in everyone's team spoiler. That's how long everone took from their picking start to send his line-up. Basically, if you get below that time, you get the character.

You definetly won't get stuck with him (although he's better than last time). Remember, we have 20 High Tier characters to choose from and even if you were last, you still had 4 choices.

True there are 4 left so I can't get goofed (thought there were only 18 and I'd get stuck with Kevin). Luckily, all high tier chars are good.

Kaoz
December 30, 2009, 04:43 PM
At least I didn't screw up that as well.
But if we ever get a tenth member, he'd have no choice unless new High Schoolers are introduced.

voicA
December 31, 2009, 08:43 PM
A question regarding players having copy ability. Who will copy who first?

In case Zaizen vs Kabaji
is that Kabaji copies Zaizen ability, or Kabaji's [Simple Minded] effect is added to Zaizen?

Kaoz
January 01, 2010, 04:26 PM
A question regarding players having copy ability. Who will copy who first?

In case Zaizen vs Kabaji
is that Kabaji copies Zaizen ability, or Kabaji's [Simple Minded] effect is added to Zaizen?

If I don't miss anything at the moment, it shouldn't matter at all, as Kabaji cannot copy feats.
As there is nothing to copy, only Zaizen's [Arrogance] activates, leaving them at 23-22 in the end.
[hr]
I changed Niou's Illusion to V5.

javimgol
January 01, 2010, 06:08 PM
Nioh effects should be impossible to be copied

-Ken-
January 01, 2010, 06:20 PM
Just my opinion, but I don't think Tezuka Phantom should be able to be copy either, if Tezuka Zone can't be copy perfectly, the 'upgraded' version shouldn't be able to be copy at all.

Kaoz
January 01, 2010, 06:30 PM
Nioh effects should be impossible to be copied

Good point.


Just my opinion, but I don't think Tezuka Phantom should be able to be copy either, if Tezuka Zone can't be copy perfectly, the 'upgraded' version shouldn't be able to be copy at all.

Niou did copy Tezuka Phantom perfectly if I remember correctly.

javimgol
January 02, 2010, 11:26 AM
Good point.



Niou did copy Tezuka Phantom perfectly if I remember correctly.

Imao Tzone and Phantom can be copies,but no using Muga or Mugyyu.Only the true masters of copy (Wakato,Nioh,Kabaji and Zaizen Genius,if I don t remember bad),the ones who don t use muga to copy,can copy it
[hr]

Good point.



Niou did copy Tezuka Phantom perfectly if I remember correctly.

Imao Tzone and Phantom can be copied, but no using Muga or Mugyyu.Only the true masters of copy (Wakato,Nioh,Kabaji and Zaizen Genius,if I don t remember bad),the ones who don t use muga to copy,can copy it

Kaoz
January 02, 2010, 02:28 PM
Not sure about that, discuss please.

javimgol
January 02, 2010, 04:48 PM
Who copied Zone and Phantom? Nioh and Kabaji,2 of the 3 Masters of The Noble and Old Art of Copy.Who said that was an impossible to be copied by Muga?Sanada,someone who should be trusted.And another topic: in the Finals, Phantom was owning Rai.When Sanada changed the tactic, he won.But in our League, I think, no sure,Sanada with Rai owns Tezuka with Phantom. Rai should not be nerfed, so boost just a bit Phantom

Kaoz
January 02, 2010, 05:10 PM
And another topic: in the Finals, Phantom was owning Rai.When Sanada changed the tactic, he won.But in our League, I think, no sure,Sanada with Rai owns Tezuka with Phantom. Rai should not be nerfed, so boost just a bit Phantom

You're right, at the moment Phantom Tezuka would win. This could be avoided by making the booost you gain through Phantom 9. To keep the balance, the Power condition could be raised to 11 as well. Like that Sanada would only win by using Rin.

Sherlock Holmes
January 02, 2010, 07:28 PM
You're right, at the moment Phantom Tezuka would win. This could be avoided by making the booost you gain through Phantom 9. To keep the balance, the Power condition could be raised to 11 as well. Like that Sanada would only win by using Rin.

Phantom is a little useless right now. It ONLY works vs Sanada, basically. Not many characters have that much power.

Maybe it should be something like "Opponent's effects are negated, Tezuka gets boosted 5 points" without a requirement to activate it. That would both make it more useful, and make him lose vs Sanada.

Kaoz
January 02, 2010, 08:00 PM
Phantom is a little useless right now. It ONLY works vs Sanada, basically. Not many characters have that much power.

Maybe it should be something like "Opponent's effects are negated, Tezuka gets boosted 5 points" without a requirement to activate it. That would both make it more useful, and make him lose vs Sanada.

Yes, I know that it's very conditional and that's been bugging me a bit. The reason behind it was that Tezuka should be able to defeat Sanada using Rai. On the other hand, he should lose to Sanada when playing against Rin. As Rin is worded, Phantom had to have a condition that rquires to check your opponent's stats.

Jav is right in saying that Tezuka would currently lose to Sanada with Rai only. That's something that should be changed, I think. The easiest way to archieve this, is to do what I already mentioned and increase the boost granted from Phantom.

The real problem here is, that according to the manga, the ball goes out, regardless of the returns power. This is definetly not covered at the moment but currently I can't think of a satisfying solution.

javimgol
January 03, 2010, 04:58 PM
What do you think about: Tezuka Phantom [Final Effect] If the opponent has moré Power than Tezuka, reduce his Power to 0 ?

Kaoz
January 03, 2010, 05:05 PM
Actually, I have no idea.

Even though it would clearly serve our purpose, it feels a bit strange to me. Also, as Tezuka is gonna be my character in the upcoming season, I can't say that much either.

Jyten
January 04, 2010, 12:29 PM
Actually, I have no idea.

Even though it would clearly serve our purpose, it feels a bit strange to me. Also, as Tezuka is gonna be my character in the upcoming season, I can't say that much either.

Yeah, I agree its useless but Tezuka has beastly abilities already. I don't think we need to worry about it too much.

Also, to date the only one who has been able to copy TPhantom is Nioh, and technically we don't know if it was a perfect copy or if it was just an illusion.

Furthermore, we may need to change Muga...or everyone will be copying spot...my recommendation is that if the effect would reduce anyone's points it only reduces by half. Now if everyone is okay copying spot fine by me....

For halving should we round up or down?

Kaoz
January 04, 2010, 02:02 PM
Yeah, I agree its useless but Tezuka has beastly abilities already. I don't think we need to worry about it too much.

Also, to date the only one who has been able to copy TPhantom is Nioh, and technically we don't know if it was a perfect copy or if it was just an illusion.

Furthermore, we may need to change Muga...or everyone will be copying spot...my recommendation is that if the effect would reduce anyone's points it only reduces by half. Now if everyone is okay copying spot fine by me....

For halving should we round up or down?

Yeah, that's right, so lemme see...

Current Muga:
-Muga no Kyouchi [Aura]:
Echizen copies the effect of one player. If that effect would add points to any stat, half the points are added instead.

New Muga:
-Muga no Kyouchi [Aura]:
Echizen copies the effect of one player. If that effect would add/reduce points to any stat, half the points are added/reduced instead.

Is that acceptable?

javimgol
January 04, 2010, 03:46 PM
Yeah, that's right, so lemme see...

Current Muga:
-Muga no Kyouchi [Aura]:
Echizen copies the effect of one player. If that effect would add points to any stat, half the points are added instead.

New Muga:
-Muga no Kyouchi [Aura]:
Echizen copies the effect of one player. If that effect would add/reduce points to any stat, half the points are added/reduced instead.

Is that acceptable?
Yes, very reasonable. And I still defend my TPhantom idea ( reducing opponent Power to 0 and being impossible to be copied by Muga)

Kaoz
January 04, 2010, 04:56 PM
Anyone who disagrees with new Muga?
If not, I'll change it.

Also, as it was a bit ignored last time, should Niou's Illusion and Mizuki's Prediction be allowed to be copied?

Sherlock Holmes
January 04, 2010, 05:51 PM
Mizuki's prediction: Not by Muga users, or the Tachibana aura. Just copy geniuses, like Niou, Wakato and Kabaji.

Niou's illusion: Kabaji should be able to copy it. Wakato...Don't know. Muga/Tachibana users? nah.

KuwabaraTheMan
January 05, 2010, 12:19 AM
I would say that since Mizuki's predictions are made prior to the matches, they shouldn't be copyable. There's nothing to actually copy during the match, it's all prep work.

Niou should at least be copyable by Kabaji.

javimgol
January 05, 2010, 04:52 AM
I would say that since Mizuki's predictions are made prior to the matches, they shouldn't be copyable. There's nothing to actually copy during the match, it's all prep work.

Niou should at least be copyable by Kabaji.

I agree at all

Sherlock Holmes
January 05, 2010, 08:02 AM
Wakato's copies are made prior to the match as well, remember? That's why I think he should be able to copy Mizuki.

Kaoz
January 05, 2010, 09:12 AM
I think, as Wakato copies with a feat, he should be able to copy Mizuki. There are no abilities that negate feats, so there should be no problem with it.

Also, before you make your 3rd picks, please look at the following:

As you might have noticed, there are several players that are unable to spend all of their points in the remaining picking round. As our original intention was to give everyone the same team strenght, I thought about giving everyone an eight character. That characters total would be equal to the points the player has left.
If the player has no points left, the character has a total of 1.
Also, the character is allowed to have one feat (I would make a list to choose from).
The character is not stuck at that level though, everytime his team wins 1 point can be assigned to a chosen stat, if the character himself won a match, one more point can be distributed.
However there is a limitation in how much points can be distributed at max. It's clearly unreasonable to say that a low tier character (and afterall it is one, as you pay near to nothing for him) can be stronger than Sanada etc., yet it is also illogical to say that your character can't grow at all once a certain points is reached. That means there need to be a number of levels for the character, either 3 (high, mid, low tier) or 4 (add pro). However, to raise to a new level, a certain number of wins or something is needed.

This is only an idea, so please tell me you thoughts about it.

Sherlock Holmes
January 05, 2010, 11:15 AM
I agree with that idea, there is nothing else to say other than "do it!"

I'd like to raise a point about Hiyoshi:


Hiyoshi (5, 5, 6, 6, 22) 20
Aggressive Baseliner

-Enbu Tennis [Feat]:
(1) Hiyoshi’s Power and Speed are boosted by 3 points each. (Singles only)
(2) Hiyoshi’s Power and Speed are boosted by 2 points each. (Doubles only)

-Gekokujou [Opening Feat]:
When playing against an opponent with an original total higher than Hiyoshi's, the opponent cannot lower Hiyoshi’s stats through Effects, and each of Hiyoshi’s stats is boosted by 1 point.

-Successor [Opening Effect]:
When playing against Atobe, Atobe’s Effects are negated and each of Hiyoshi’s stats is boosted by 2 points.

...Who is my character, but still, I'd like to talk about him.

His effect is useless.


Atobe (9, 9, 10, 11, 39) 45
All-rounder

-Insight [Feat]:
The opponent’s total drops by 3 and if he would add any points through an effect, only half the points are added.

-The King [Feat]:
Atobe’s Power and Control are boosted by 2 points each.

-Rondo towards Destruction [Final Effect]:
(1) If the opponent’s Speed is 9 or below, his Power is halved. (Singles only)
(2) If the combined Speed of both opponents is below 15, their effects are cancelled. (Doubles only)

-World of Ice [Final Effect]:
If the opponent’s total is within 10 points, their Speed and Power drop by 3 points each.


His effect only works vs Atobe, and he would still lose vs Atobe 100% of the time.

Hiyoshi+Enbu+Gekokujou+Successor=40

Atobe+his feat=43. Atobe's feat also makes Hiyoshi go down to 38, since Hiyoshi only blocks effects, not feats.

My suggestion:

Make it "vs a Captain" instead of only vs Atobe, or change his effect to something not related to playing vs Atobe or a captain, or if you guys think he is too broken just make it possible for him to defeat Atobe by negating feats as well.

-Ken-
January 05, 2010, 11:41 AM
It's a good idea, just go for it.

Kaoz
January 05, 2010, 02:26 PM
I agree with that idea, there is nothing else to say other than "do it!"

I'd like to raise a point about Hiyoshi:



...Who is my character, but still, I'd like to talk about him.

His effect is useless.



His effect only works vs Atobe, and he would still lose vs Atobe 100% of the time.

Hiyoshi+Enbu+Gekokujou+Successor=40

Atobe+his feat=43. Atobe's feat also makes Hiyoshi go down to 38, since Hiyoshi only blocks effects, not feats.

My suggestion:

Make it "vs a Captain" instead of only vs Atobe, or change his effect to something not related to playing vs Atobe or a captain, or if you guys think he is too broken just make it possible for him to defeat Atobe by negating feats as well.

By that, do you mean the real captains or rather like everyone chooses a captain for his team?

Also, if anyone has an idea for an unrelated effect that works well with the name, go ahead.

Sherlock Holmes
January 05, 2010, 04:17 PM
I mean everyone picks a character and makes it their team's captain(didn't we do that in the last league?). Otherwise, his effect would again be useless. Not enough Captain's in the league. 1/7 chance of activating his effect is good enough though. So, I suggest something like this:


-Successor [Opening Effect]:
When playing against a team's Captain, that Captain’s Effects are negated and each of Hiyoshi’s stats is boosted by 2 points. This stat increase cannot be negated or interfered with.

or, if you want to make it more specific:

-Successor [Opening Effect]:
When playing against a team's Captain, that Captain’s Effects are negated and each of Hiyoshi’s stats is boosted by 2 points. This stat increase cannot be negated by Atobe's insight.

The "this stat increase cannot be negated" part is simply to keep the original vs Atobe scenario PLAUSIBLE. Now that I look at it more carefully...


-Insight [Feat]:
The opponent’s total drops by 3 and if he would add any points through an effect, only half the points are added.

...That would make Hiyoshi go only up to 36, while Atobe would have 43 points. It wouldn't even be close.

Kaoz
January 05, 2010, 06:24 PM
Hmm, I'm fine with changing it that way.
Any complaints?

-Ken-
January 05, 2010, 06:34 PM
You say that if the player do not have enough point left, they will auto get the 2 lowest point character right?

If to make it more even, for the 'eight' (If you actually add him, of course) character, why not add a certain point equal to the highest amount of point over 160 as well. This way, everyone wil have same amount of point on their team. It will also act as an equalizer.

As for the Hiyoshi ability. The ability would be better that way, but I think there also should be some benefits for the captain. Otherwise, if only effect that effect that Captain make it worst, why would anyone pick a decent character to be a captain?

Kaoz
January 05, 2010, 06:43 PM
You say that if the player do not have enough point left, they will auto get the 2 lowest point character right?

If to make it more even, for the 'eight' (If you actually add him, of course) character, why not add a certain point equal to the highest amount of point over 160 as well. This way, everyone wil have same amount of point on their team. It will also act as an equalizer.

As for the Hiyoshi ability. The ability would be better that way, but I think there also should be some benefits for the captain. Otherwise, if only effect that effect that Captain make it worst, why would anyone pick a decent character to be a captain?

I'll consider the first.

As for the ability, you're right, I'll think about it for a bit.

javimgol
January 06, 2010, 03:59 AM
I think, as Wakato copies with a feat, he should be able to copy Mizuki. There are no abilities that negate feats, so there should be no problem with it.

Also, before you make your 3rd picks, please look at the following:

As you might have noticed, there are several players that are unable to spend all of their points in the remaining picking round. As our original intention was to give everyone the same team strenght, I thought about giving everyone an eight character. That characters total would be equal to the points the player has left.
If the player has no points left, the character has a total of 1.
Also, the character is allowed to have one feat (I would make a list to choose from).
The character is not stuck at that level though, everytime his team wins 1 point can be assigned to a chosen stat, if the character himself won a match, one more point can be distributed.
However there is a limitation in how much points can be distributed at max. It's clearly unreasonable to say that a low tier character (and afterall it is one, as you pay near to nothing for him) can be stronger than Sanada etc., yet it is also illogical to say that your character can't grow at all once a certain points is reached. That means there need to be a number of levels for the character, either 3 (high, mid, low tier) or 4 (add pro). However, to raise to a new level, a certain number of wins or something is needed.

This is only an idea, so please tell me you thoughts about it.

I don't like it at all. I completely disagree. I'd seriously thinking in abandoning the league. Prince of Tennis is full of characters, we don´t need to create stranque quimeras.


Just make a bunch of 1-2 point players like Arai (boost in doubles with a Seigaku Pair), Ann Tachibana (same as Arai but with Fudoumine and Momo), Horio (simply bad),Kato ([Feat] "Son of a Tennis Teacher"), Mizuno (he copies one of Oishi's abilities),Tomoka (a copy of Ryuzaki) and Sasabe (Golden Retriever)

Kaoz
January 06, 2010, 04:44 AM
I don't like it at all. I completely disagree. I'd seriously thinking in abandoning the league. Prince of Tennis is full of characters, we don´t need to create stranque quimeras.


Just make a bunch of 1-2 point players like Arai (boost in doubles with a Seigaku Pair), Ann Tachibana (same as Arai but with Fudoumine and Momo), Horio (simply bad),Kato ([Feat] "Son of a Tennis Teacher"), Mizuno (he copies one of Oishi's abilities),Tomoka (a copy of Ryuzaki) and Sasabe (Golden Retriever)

Seriously, it would be an insult for the other characters if I did that. Honestly, the rest of the field could beat any character you listed with one eye closed and a hand tied on his back. I said, I don't want any more joke characters (even if they are bad) before we started.

Honestly, what is the problem one custom made character? It's true that PoT packs a bunch of characters, sadly most of them would get a total of 1 or 2 points in the league.

Also, you were the one who kept going on with "When we have more participants...". Which characters should they take?

javimgol
January 06, 2010, 09:15 AM
Seriously, it would be an insult for the other characters if I did that. Honestly, the rest of the field could beat any character you listed with one eye closed and a hand tied on his back. I said, I don't want any more joke characters (even if they are bad) before we started.

Honestly, what is the problem one custom made character? It's true that PoT packs a bunch of characters, sadly most of them would get a total of 1 or 2 points in the league.

Also, you were the one who kept going on with "When we have more participants...". Which characters should they take?
The 1-2 point players are made to the people who only have 3 or 4 points left for low tier. I think it's fair, Ken and me, for example, reserved 10 points for it, so we have no problem to choose the characters.
When will have more people, in future, leagues, we will create more players, but not only for low tier

What is the problem in creating that characters? I only see advantages

Kaoz
January 06, 2010, 11:11 AM
The 1-2 point players are made to the people who only have 3 or 4 points left for low tier. I think it's fair, Ken and me, for example, reserved 10 points for it, so we have no problem to choose the characters.
When will have more people, in future, leagues, we will create more players, but not only for low tier

What is the problem in creating that characters? I only see advantages

There are no high tier characters left. And at the speed the manga is progressing, I can't see many to be added in the near future.

Why do you dislike my idea so much though? I don't get it.

(Btw Ken approved my idea before, didn't he?)

javimgol
January 06, 2010, 01:43 PM
There are no high tier characters left. And at the speed the manga is progressing, I can't see many to be added in the near future.

Why do you dislike my idea so much though? I don't get it.

(Btw Ken approved my idea before, didn't he?)
The creation of players is typical in RPGs. But this is a Fan League. A "home-made" character could be confusing, strange, and, most of all, it could become broken

The only ones who could have a problem with the points are Jyten and maybe, if he has bad luck, voicA. So let's continue the pick. There are still many 3-4 point characters.

If Jyten have not enough points,
1.he could re-do his team. Picking Ryoga and Yuki at the same time wasn´t too logic IMAO. Change Yuki to Kevin (16 points more to expend, 20 left), Kiraku to Reiji (he lose 2 points, 18 left) and take Ishida and Amane. 0 points left. And still a great team, with the Best Player, the Second Best Doubles, The Best Low Tier. And Kevin is still a High Tier, and with Muga
2.Or make another 1 point players (my opinion)
3. Talk to Kuwabra, tell him please don´t pick Itsuki and Kadowaki (he has 8 points left) and accept he has 161 points. I don´t care., and I think nobody will complain. Jyten is the next one to pick aften Kuwabra, remember


Another completely different topic. Ryoma Pinnacle of Perfection should be impossible to be copied. I think even Copy Masters Nioh, Kabaji could not make it. Maybe they could, but I say this simply beacuse Nioh copiying that would be unbeatable if you can not negate Nioh effect, because our Dear Xanatos would beat automatically 30-44 characters (he's 37 impersonating Echizen).

Kaoz
January 06, 2010, 02:03 PM
Everything you said is right and that someone wouldn't have enough points to spend on his characters wasn't the issue at all.

The "problem" that came up, is that even though most of us spent all of our points, there are some who have 10 or more points left after their last pick (Sherlock and propably Sai as well). If they only spend 150 points on their teams, they'd be at a huge disadvantage (in theory at least), so I wanted to give everyone an eight character to balance this out.

Sherlock Holmes
January 06, 2010, 04:05 PM
Can I suggest one thing? Can we, people with extra points, buy 3 lower tier characters instead of 2? That should fix everything.

That way I will have 8 characters, and all of them will be league worthy characters. Though even though that would give us some mind raping fuel, we would still be a little weaker.

Either that, or can we spend our points to make our weakest lower tier character stronger?(I prefer this solution)

For example, in my case, that's wakato. I have 12 points left.
Wakato is 19 points strong.
If I used up all my 12 points on him, I could make him 31 points strong.

Would that be fair? We did something similar in the last fan league, to make all the newbies stronger(since we didn't have enough strong characters)

But 1 point=1 stat point seems a little too OP(though some of you might disagree) so maybe we could make it 2 points=1 stat point(which would get Wakato only up to 25), or 1.5 points=1 stat point(wakato would go up to 27), you guys decide.


Another completely different topic. Ryoma Pinnacle of Perfection should be impossible to be copied. I think even Copy Masters Nioh, Kabaji could not make it. Maybe they could, but I say this simply beacuse Nioh copiying that would be unbeatable if you can not negate Nioh effect, because our Dear Xanatos would beat automatically 30-44 characters (he's 37 impersonating Echizen).
Would you stop catching those loopholes? I've been trying to save them for a match haha.

Kaoz
January 06, 2010, 04:13 PM
Pah, I don't care.
I can make an eight character for those who have points left, maybe someone from Midoriyama or that Yamabuki guy with glasses.

I think allowing the boosting of characters would make those way too strong.

I'll fix PoP.

Sherlock Holmes
January 06, 2010, 04:25 PM
well if we can pick an eight character, I'll take Ishida. He costs 9 points and I have 12...Close enough.

Kaoz
January 06, 2010, 04:52 PM
well if we can pick an eight character, I'll take Ishida. He costs 9 points and I have 12...Close enough.

Hold it there. Let's finish picking first and I'll make some additional characters for you then.

javimgol
January 06, 2010, 04:58 PM
I agree with your last ideas, Chaos and Sherlock. I think is better an extra player than improving a character. Sherlock, with your points left, you could alse change Yuuta or Saeki to Reiji
Chaos, you could use US team, is Kevin is here, why not the others http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_The_Prince_of_Tennis_characters#American_team?
They could be low or even middle tier
To make 1-2-3 points players, I told you we have Dan, Horio,Kato,Mizuno,Sasabe,Tomoka,Arai...

Sherlock Holmes
January 06, 2010, 05:04 PM
The problem with picking Reiji is that Chaos doesn't want to let anyone have more than 3 middle tier characters. If I could, I would pick him.

Kaoz
January 06, 2010, 05:07 PM
Haha, that's right. As I said, let's concentrate on finish the picking for now. I'll deal with the remaining points later.

Sherlock Holmes
January 06, 2010, 05:17 PM
Who hasn't picked yet?

Kaoz
January 06, 2010, 05:23 PM
Jyten, Sai, Fayte, voicA and myself. Jyten said he wouldn't come for a few days, so it'll take a while longer as it's his turn to pick at the moment.

Jyten
January 06, 2010, 11:59 PM
Jyten, Sai, Fayte, voicA and myself. Jyten said he wouldn't come for a few days, so it'll take a while longer as it's his turn to pick at the moment.

Back online but my time here is change to some nights. This website truly annoyed me the other day. However, I sent my picks in....granted i was throw email...currently you can contact me much faster through that. If you want it i can pm it to you.

First, Pop should not be able to be copied by anyone.

Second, we should not spend points to boost our characters. Part choosing is taking into account how to use your points well. If I end up not having enough points to chose anyone...that's just plain sad since I didn't get any of my top pics and pretty much just threw this team together at random. But I can repick or whatever.

8 players is a good idea but you should only be able to choose them after everyone choose their original 7. Gives them a bit of lee-way and a bonus for not using all their points.

Sent in my picks...prays I can complete a team. :p

javimgol
January 07, 2010, 09:14 AM
Kaneda can use
Classic Formation [Formation, L1]:
This Formation can only be used by an All-rounder. Players in this pair cannot have their Effects negated.
, for example, even if he isn´t an All-Rounder, thanks to
-Tactician [Feat]:
When playing Doubles, Kaneda’s stats are boosted by 2 points each. Also, the team can use any standard Formation regardless of that Formation’s conditions. ?

Kaoz
January 07, 2010, 10:14 AM
Correct.

javimgol
January 07, 2010, 11:43 AM
Oishi has one Synchro
-Synchro [Aura]:
If Oishi plays Doubles and the partner is Kikumaru, the received Support bonus is doubled. (15 points more)

and Level 5 pairs have another, much better
Synchro [Aura]:
All of the user’s stats are boosted by 3 points and his stats cannot drop through Feats and Effects. This Aura is negated when being used by only one player of the pair.
(3x4= 12 points, plus other 12 of Kikumaru, and Kikumaru can not use it alone)

So, if we have to choose, Oishi's Synchro doesn´t make sense.

Or Oishi's Synchro boost Golden Pair's Synchro, giving them the doubled Support Bonus AND boosting 12 points/player?

I think is better to transform Oishi's Synchro into a [Feat] Doubles Expert, boosting 2 points each stat in doubles,like Sakurai or Kaneda's Tactician, making him more accurate to real Oishi (he was a doubles master even before begining to play with Kikumaru as a pair, in first year he played with the regulars http://www.onemanga.com/Prince_of_Tennis/203/07/). In this league, Oishi is only good playing with Kikumaru, and he is maybe the best doubles player of PoT, so he should be enough good to be useful in doubles with another pair

Kaoz
January 07, 2010, 11:53 AM
Ah, I wanted to remove Oishi's Aura. I made the character abilities before we thought of the doubles levels, seems that I forgot to change this.

Giving him a doubles expert feat would be reasonable though.

Sherlock Holmes
January 07, 2010, 02:46 PM
You know, I think I thought of a good way to make Tezuka Phantom useful.


-Tezuka Phantom [Final Effect]:
If the opponent’s base points are within 20 points of Tezuka, this effect can be activated. If activated, Tezuka's spin gets boosted 15 points. This effect cannot be used two matches in a row, and Tezuka's base total will get decreased by 5 points in his next match. If Tezuka used this effect in doubles, his base total will get decreased by 10 points in his next match.

To explain it: Tezuka Phantom gives +15 to Tezuka, but he can't use it 2 matches in a row(let's assume he gets injured when he uses it) and gets his base total decreased in his next match, to make it a VERY double edged sword.

Example:

R1:Chaos vs Jyten

Chaos makes Tezuka use Tezuka Phantom

R2: Chaos vs Atobe

Chaos' tezuka loses against Atobe even though he would normally win, because of his Phantom loss.

What about it? I think it would make it useful, not too op(since it would have a VERY big disadvantage) faithful to the manga, and overall very cool.

Also, about Hiyoshi, what are we gonna do about him?

Kaoz
January 07, 2010, 02:53 PM
If Phantom would be negated, would the drawbacks still occur in the following match?

About Hiyoshi, I still try to think of something that makes captains slightly more useful.

javimgol
January 07, 2010, 04:03 PM
-Gekokujou [Opening Feat]:
Hiyoshi get boosted 1 point each stat for every 5 points the other captain has more than him.The opponent cannot lower Hiyoshi’s stats more than one point each stat(Singles only)

That would make him stay pretty near of the captain, and with Enbu Tennis and if the opponent hasn't got many useful effects, he could even win.

Let's see VS Atobe
Atobe has 17 points more than him, so 3*4= 12 points boost
12+22+6(Enbu Tennis) + 8 (Succesor) = 48! Atobe is only 39
Then Atobe uses Insight and The King. 39+4= 43. Hiyoshi goes to 45. He still wins. Damn it.
To avoid Hiyoshi win, make Succesor only stop Rondo, and not Ice World. So, Hiyoshi would lose to Atobe only if he uses Ice World

I still like my TPhantom idea, I'm really stubborn. It only works with rivals with more Power than Tezuka (Sanada, Gin, Kintaroh and Big 4,I think), and reducing it to 0, makes real the saying "the stronger, the biggest fall".
And making an ability to continue in the next match...I don´t like it too much.

What do the people think about boosting a bit Oishi with
Tactician [Effect]:
When playing Doubles Oishi’s stats are boosted by 2 points each?
He could be useful also without Kikumaru. He is still useless in singles, and only good in doubles, considering his cost. He only becomes a beast (and best doubles player in PoT) with Kiku as a pair.

Kaoz
January 07, 2010, 04:23 PM
-Gekokujou [Opening Feat]:
Hiyoshi get boosted 1 point each stat for every 5 points the other captain has more than him.The opponent cannot lower Hiyoshi’s stats more than one point each stat(Singles only)

That would make him stay pretty near of the captain, and with Enbu Tennis and if the opponent hasn't got many useful effects, he could even win.

Let's see VS Atobe
Atobe has 17 points more than him, so 3*4= 12 points boost
12+22+6(Enbu Tennis) + 8 (Succesor) = 48! Atobe is only 39
Then Atobe uses Insight and The King. 39+4= 43. Hiyoshi goes to 45. He still wins. Damn it.
To avoid Hiyoshi win, make Succesor only stop Rondo, and not Ice World. So, Hiyoshi would lose to Atobe only if he uses Ice World

I still like my TPhantom idea, I'm really stubborn. It only works with rivals with more Power than Tezuka (Sanada, Gin, Kintaroh and Big 4,I think), and reducing it to 0, makes real the saying "the stronger, the biggest fall".
And making an ability to continue in the next match...I don´t like it too much.

What do the people think about boosting a bit Oishi with
Tactician [Effect]:
When playing Doubles Oishi’s stats are boosted by 2 points each?
He could be useful also without Kikumaru. He is still useless in singles, and only good in doubles, considering his cost. He only becomes a beast (and best doubles player in PoT) with Kiku as a pair.

The problem on hand is not Hiyoshi's effect itself. It's rather which bonus a captain could receive or else:



As for the Hiyoshi ability. The ability would be better that way, but I think there also should be some benefits for the captain. Otherwise, if only effect that effect that Captain make it worst, why would anyone pick a decent character to be a captain?

Sherlock Holmes
January 07, 2010, 05:08 PM
...One last post before I go take a nap(I'm exhausted right now):



I still like my TPhantom idea, I'm really stubborn. It only works with rivals with more Power than Tezuka (Sanada, Gin, Kintaroh and Big 4,I think), and reducing it to 0, makes real the saying "the stronger, the biggest fall".
And making an ability to continue in the next match...I don´t like it too much.


The thing is, "the stronger the biggest fall" is not really how the technique works. It's Tezuka's final trump card, yes, but if he felt sadistic and wanted to use it vs Horio, he could. As the technique is now, it's too restricted and not compatible with the manga. And I like abilities that continue in the next match, because that adds a whole new layer of strategy.


If Phantom would be negated, would the drawbacks still occur in the following match?

Yes. It would be something Tezuka's player would seriously have to consider before using it. Would it be worth it? If Sanada Rins him, Tezuka can't activate Phantom, and would still get injured(aka, like in the manga)

How about it? Can we agree on Tezuka's effect?

And as for Hiyoshi...How about this:

Successor[Effect]
When playing Singles 1, Hiyoshi's stats go up by 2 points each and his opponent's effects are negated. If he loses that match, he will have a minus 2 effect in his next match and will not be able to play in Singles 1.

....Yeah maybe I'm getting a little carried away with the whole "carries on to the next match" effects.

But maybe a "something happens when playing Singles 1" would be good, since he is now Hyotei's Captain.

We could still go with the classic...

Hyotei's Will[Effect]
Hiyoshi can copy the effect of one Hyotei member. This effect does not work when playing against a Hyotei member.

We could nerf it to only copy it by 90% instead of 100%, but...eh. You get my point.

okay, really last idea before I go take a nap:

Hyotei's Chant[Effect]
Hiyoshi gets boosted 2 points for each Hyotei member playing in this match, counting both teams.

That would count not only Hiyoshi's match, but S3,S2,S1, etc. The entire match.

Also, if Hiyoshi really gets Hyotei's Chant, Atobe also deserves that effect XD.

-Ken-
January 07, 2010, 09:27 PM
I don't really know about Tezuka Phantom. But I thought Rin doesn't do anything except by something like Pinnacle of Great Wisdom? It just feel kinda weird.

I also just saw that Fuji 6th counter is not there. Why not? I thought it's like his most poweful move.

Jyten
January 08, 2010, 03:17 AM
I don't really know about Tezuka Phantom. But I thought Rin doesn't do anything except by something like Pinnacle of Great Wisdom? It just feel kinda weird.

I also just saw that Fuji 6th counter is not there. Why not? I thought it's like his most poweful move.

TPhantom I don't think even needs to be in Tezuka's arsenal. Like it can be but this is getting a bit silly. Also, I don't know if Tezuka could use phantom against horio. Remember he is increasing the spin of the shot traumatically, its much easier to make a fast moving ball go out laterally with spin than a slow moving ball. If physics apply to PoT...unsure about that...

Fuji doesn't need a sixth counter...he has 5 moves already where most people only have 1 or 2....also, sixth I thought only worked if they broke the 5th.....we could have a condition if you break the 5th counter fuji's control goes up by 2 for the final counter or something...bug Fuji is already frighteningly scary in singles. I don't think he needs any more hax on him.

javimgol
January 08, 2010, 04:38 AM
Remember, Chos, Niou's Illusion should be impossible to be copied.Same goes to Guess Who?
Right now is an effect, so even Ishida could use it XD
And Sherlock, with Wakato in his team, would have 2 Niou
[hr]
Without Oishi boost, Champion Pair coul beat (and even with difference) Golden Pair.
Golden Pair gets 82 with 21 (Kiku) + 22 (Oishi with Oishi Territory) + 15 (Support Bonus) + 24 (Oishi and Kikumaru Synchro's) = 82, and -2 to each rival speed.
Champion Pair gets 34 (Bunta) + 33 (Jackal) + 10 (Support Bonus) + 6 (Feat Bonus Strategy) = 83, and they can still use a Formation. They can use 3 Formations (No Formation, Australian Formation and I Formation) and they would win whatever they use

Kaoz
January 08, 2010, 02:34 PM
I don't really know about Tezuka Phantom. But I thought Rin doesn't do anything except by something like Pinnacle of Great Wisdom? It just feel kinda weird.

I also just saw that Fuji 6th counter is not there. Why not? I thought it's like his most poweful move.

Simply because there was no need to. If you can think of something that is not overpowered and fits into the scheme of his current abilities, go ahead.


TPhantom I don't think even needs to be in Tezuka's arsenal. Like it can be but this is getting a bit silly. Also, I don't know if Tezuka could use phantom against horio. Remember he is increasing the spin of the shot traumatically, its much easier to make a fast moving ball go out laterally with spin than a slow moving ball. If physics apply to PoT...unsure about that...


As you should know by now, physics and PoT are a whole diffeerent matter. Seriously, I think Fuji (or Sanada?) tried to hit slow balls but they went out nevertheless. But how about I replace TPhantom with:

-Zeroshiki Drop Shot [Effect]:
(1)Tezuka’s Spin stat is boosted depending on the opponent’s playstyle. All-ronder; Aggressive Baseliner->5 points, Defensive Baseliner->7 points, Serve and Volley->3 points. (Singles only)
(2) Tezuka’s Spin is boosted by 4 points. (Doubles only)

or something simple like:

-Zeroshiki Serve [Effect]:
Tezuka’s Spin is boosted by 7 points. This Effect cannot be copied.


Remember, Chos, Niou's Illusion should be impossible to be copied.Same goes to Guess Who?
Right now is an effect, so even Ishida could use it XD
And Sherlock, with Wakato in his team, would have 2 Niou
<hr noshade size="1">
Without Oishi boost, Champion Pair coul beat (and even with difference) Golden Pair.
Golden Pair gets 82 with 21 (Kiku) + 22 (Oishi with Oishi Territory) + 15 (Support Bonus) + 24 (Oishi and Kikumaru Synchro's) = 82, and -2 to each rival speed.
Champion Pair gets 34 (Bunta) + 33 (Jackal) + 10 (Support Bonus) + 6 (Feat Bonus Strategy) = 83, and they can still use a Formation. They can use 3 Formations (No Formation, Australian Formation and I Formation) and they would win whatever they use

Yeah, yeah, Oishi gets the doubles master.
[hr]
Well then, I changed a few things:
-Yamabuki D2 cost and total altered
-Hiyoshi got a new Successor
-Oishi got a small bonus
-I deleted Tezuka Phantom and put Zeroshiki in it's place
[hr]
I'd like to change Wakato's Feat as well, I think he should also copy the playstyle of whomever he chooses to copy.

Jyten
January 09, 2010, 02:16 AM
Remember, Chos, Niou's Illusion should be impossible to be copied.Same goes to Guess Who?
Right now is an effect, so even Ishida could use it XD
And Sherlock, with Wakato in his team, would have 2 Niou
<hr noshade size="1">
Without Oishi boost, Champion Pair coul beat (and even with difference) Golden Pair.
Golden Pair gets 82 with 21 (Kiku) + 22 (Oishi with Oishi Territory) + 15 (Support Bonus) + 24 (Oishi and Kikumaru Synchro's) = 82, and -2 to each rival speed.
Champion Pair gets 34 (Bunta) + 33 (Jackal) + 10 (Support Bonus) + 6 (Feat Bonus Strategy) = 83, and they can still use a Formation. They can use 3 Formations (No Formation, Australian Formation and I Formation) and they would win whatever they use

I think GP is 90? Kik 19 + 8(feats/effects) + 12 (Oishi) + 2 (Doubles Master) + 0(Moon Volley Bunta negates effect) + 10 (Territory) + 15 (L5) + 24 (Syncro) = 90

Now 90 is how much he goes up and they go down just adding it all in positives to make the math easier...

CP = Jackal 22 + 8 + 3 + Bunta 25 + 6(feat) + 0 (his effect doesn't work on them) + 10 (L4) + 3 (feat) + 8 (no formation...Australian won't work in this case) = 85?

90 > 85?

So, I still think GP is higher than CP....just GP really is only good with each other. Kind of the way we designed it but they cost far less so, I think its fair.

I like the new changes and Wakato copying people's play style I think is fine. Could make him more interesting in doubles.

Kaoz
January 09, 2010, 04:28 AM
Good, Wakato now copies playstyles.

To bring this up again, should Mizuki's predicition be able to copy or not?

javimgol
January 09, 2010, 08:18 AM
I think GP is 90? Kik 19 + 8(feats/effects) + 12 (Oishi) + 2 (Doubles Master) + 0(Moon Volley Bunta negates effect) + 10 (Territory) + 15 (L5) + 24 (Syncro) = 90

Now 90 is how much he goes up and they go down just adding it all in positives to make the math easier...

CP = Jackal 22 + 8 + 3 + Bunta 25 + 6(feat) + 0 (his effect doesn't work on them) + 10 (L4) + 3 (feat) + 8 (no formation...Australian won't work in this case) = 85?

90 > 85?

So, I still think GP is higher than CP....just GP really is only good with each other. Kind of the way we designed it but they cost far less so, I think its fair.

I like the new changes and Wakato copying people's play style I think is fine. Could make him more interesting in doubles.

Your are wrong. Oishi and Kikumaru can not use their Effects and an Aura (Synchro) at the same time. And Bunta's effect doesn´t work neither Oishi of Kikumaru. But you' re right, Australian Formation wouldn´t work because without Synchro,an Aura that is activated after Formations, Champion Pair would have a lot more points that Golden Pair (just like in Real PoT)

Jyten
January 09, 2010, 07:05 PM
Your are wrong. Oishi and Kikumaru can not use their Effects and an Aura (Synchro) at the same time. And Bunta's effect doesn´t work neither Oishi of Kikumaru. But you' re right, Australian Formation wouldn´t work because without Synchro,an Aura that is activated after Formations, Champion Pair would have a lot more points that Golden Pair (just like in Real PoT)

True, forgot about syncro is an aura so GP goes down by 4 points. Which really isn't that much. Even in that case the GP still squeaks out a win.(86 > 85) So, no CP still doesn't beat GP.

CP costs more but they can be used in more situations. They can play with other people and Bunta at least is decent in singles.

I don't understand your comment....are you saying CP costs more and its okay? Or do you think the CP can still beat the GP?

I think Oishi is fine as he is. He's an "okay" singles player, a decent doubles player and the best doubles partner to Kikimaru. Plus he only costs 20. Changing him too much will effect his cost. If you want him stronger then we'd have to bump his costs up to high middle tier like 25.

javimgol
January 10, 2010, 04:37 AM
Good, Wakato now copies playstyles.

To bring this up again, should Mizuki's predicition be able to copy or not?
It should be impossible to be copied by Muga or Mugyyu. But again, Kabaji, Wakato, Niou or Zaizen's Genius could. But just an opinion, it's something to be discussed.

I sent this to Chaos, an Oishi more accurate

Oishi (1, 3, 1, 4, 9) 20
Defensive Baseliner

-Doubles Master [Feat]:
When playing Doubles, Oishi’s stats are doubled. Also, the team can use any standard Formation regardless of that Formation’s conditions.

-Moon Volley [Effect]:
Oishi’s Control is boosted by 4 points.

-Oishi Territory [Formation]:
When partnered with a character that has a Speed stat of 15 or higher, Oishi's Control get's boosted by 10 points.


Oishi is one of my favourite players, so I follow very well his aparitions in PoT. He is always called "Doubles Master", he is the key in the game of Golden Pair and, in every match, his rivals says "Oh, Oishi is someone who should be feared", "Kiku isn´t tired because of Oishi's Control" and other things like that.
But in the League, he is pure baggage in Doubles, considering he is the best doubles player of PoT.
My idea is reduce even more his points, but make him better in Doubles.

Sherlock Holmes
January 10, 2010, 04:40 AM
I might be partial since I'm Wakato's player but...

Remember, in the anime he practiced his copies the day before a match. He watched videos, studied the technique, etc. He can definitely copy Mizuki's ability.

Kabaji? Hell no. He has no brain.

javimgol
January 10, 2010, 04:52 AM
I might be partial since I'm Wakato's player but...

Remember, in the anime he practiced his copies the day before a match. He watched videos, studied the technique, etc. He can definitely copy Mizuki's ability.

Kabaji? Hell no. He has no brain.
No brain, but he copied TZone and PoHW. It's more difficult to break the laws of Physic to make a shot to return you than just get information about other players

Kaoz
January 10, 2010, 04:57 AM
No brain, but he copied TZone and PoHW. It's more difficult to break the laws of Physic to make a shot to return you than just get information about other players

If you're lucky you must not be intelligent to break the laws of physic (even less on Pot) but you must have a bit of brain to figure out where exactly someone will play.

I edited Mizuki in order to make him unable to be copied but predicition cannot be negated either.

-Ken-
January 10, 2010, 03:15 PM
I'm not sure about can't be negated, didn't Sengaku sort of 'negate' his prediction?

Kaoz
January 10, 2010, 03:22 PM
I'm not sure about can't be negated, didn't Sengaku sort of 'negate' his prediction?

Sengoku???

They didn't even play each other, neither did their teams.
Sengoku, sure? Where and when?

-Ken-
January 10, 2010, 03:27 PM
I mean seigaku>< Got confused, sorry.

Kaoz
January 10, 2010, 03:33 PM
No, everyone played the position Mizuki predicted. That they lost is another matter but his prediction was 100% correct.

Sherlock Holmes
January 10, 2010, 03:58 PM
Uh so, can Wakato copy Mizuki or not? Because we went from "should he?" to "btw, Mizuki's effect cannot be negated"

Wakato is kinda useless right now since all the good effects in the league are unable to be copied.

It's one thing to let those effects not be copied by muga/etc, because that would make characters broken and all, but Wakato's ONLY ability is copying other characters effects.

I think that logically, he should be able to copy Mizuki. I mean, some techniques that shouldn't be copied make sense. Niou's Illusion, sure. Oni and the other high schoolers? Sure as well. Too strong.

But Mizuki's technique is but preparation, and Wakato is ALL about preparation. I can't think of a mangawise explanation for him not being able to use it.

javimgol
January 11, 2010, 04:31 AM
Uh so, can Wakato copy Mizuki or not? Because we went from "should he?" to "btw, Mizuki's effect cannot be negated"

Wakato is kinda useless right now since all the good effects in the league are unable to be copied.

It's one thing to let those effects not be copied by muga/etc, because that would make characters broken and all, but Wakato's ONLY ability is copying other characters effects.

I think that logically, he should be able to copy Mizuki. I mean, some techniques that shouldn't be copied make sense. Niou's Illusion, sure. Oni and the other high schoolers? Sure as well. Too strong.

But Mizuki's technique is but preparation, and Wakato is ALL about preparation. I can't think of a mangawise explanation for him not being able to use it.
I said before, Mizuki's Data should be copied only by Copy Masters (Niou,Wakato,Kabaji,Zaizen's Genius).
But you are completely wrong if you think that Wakato is useless. If he is, why don't you change him for my Kajimoto? Or pick Reiji, who costs the same? Wakato is a true beast.One of the players with best points/cost relation.He's the only one who can get a 10 point boost with Gin's Hadokyyu. Or even Rin+Rai!

Kaoz
January 11, 2010, 09:04 AM
Wakato can't use both Rin and Rai. Reason is that Rin states one additional effect can be activated but Wakato has none. So either is fine but not both.

javimgol
January 11, 2010, 10:29 AM
Wakato can't use both Rin and Rai. Reason is that Rin states one additional effect can be activated but Wakato has none. So either is fine but not both.
Reading the description of Wakato's Feat and Rin, seems possible to me to copy Rin + other effect. Same than Shinji's Kick Serve+ Spot. But your word is law here, I accept it

Jyten
January 11, 2010, 08:25 PM
Uh so, can Wakato copy Mizuki or not? Because we went from "should he?" to "btw, Mizuki's effect cannot be negated"

Wakato is kinda useless right now since all the good effects in the league are unable to be copied.

It's one thing to let those effects not be copied by muga/etc, because that would make characters broken and all, but Wakato's ONLY ability is copying other characters effects.

I think that logically, he should be able to copy Mizuki. I mean, some techniques that shouldn't be copied make sense. Niou's Illusion, sure. Oni and the other high schoolers? Sure as well. Too strong.

But Mizuki's technique is but preparation, and Wakato is ALL about preparation. I can't think of a mangawise explanation for him not being able to use it.

Wakato is not a stalker. So, he won't have the data needed for preparation and prediction. Plus, I see him being able to perfectly match how people move their bodies, and how they play, just not how they think. Nor does he have the respect form his teammates for them to follow exactly how he says. That is reserved for the MILF coach. :)

I think only Nioh was capable of that...granted Nioh...kind of seemed like a rip off of Wakato...so....yeah....unsure on which one's ability came out first. If you want he could copy an aura's too.

-Ken-
January 12, 2010, 03:48 AM
Just wondering, do ability like Fuji/Oshitari auto-activate or he have to get his opponent ability right?

Kaoz
January 12, 2010, 10:31 AM
Eh, in which way?

Fuji's effects activate when the playstyle is right and all the time in doubles, Oshitar's effects are like the first part of Fuji's.

Does this answer your question?

Sherlock Holmes
January 12, 2010, 05:29 PM
Wakato is not a stalker. So, he won't have the data needed for preparation and prediction. Plus, I see him being able to perfectly match how people move their bodies, and how they play, just not how they think. Nor does he have the respect form his teammates for them to follow exactly how he says. That is reserved for the MILF coach. :)

I think only Nioh was capable of that...granted Nioh...kind of seemed like a rip off of Wakato...so....yeah....unsure on which one's ability came out first. If you want he could copy an aura's too.

Not a stalker? He stalked people to copy their abilities, remember?
He has to watch tapes over and over again to understand how to copy something. Of course he would have the data.

Respect is irrelevant, it's not like Mizuki's ability only works with St.Rudolph members, and it's not like anyone outside of St.Rudolph would have any respect for him.

Anyway, the reason I picked Wakato was that he was a decent character. He could copy effects and all.

But then after I picked him, his effect became greatly nerfed when all the good effects began being "impossible to copy."

Which is okay and all, but I still think he should be able to copy Mizuki's effect for the reasons I provided above. If not...Eh, I'll accept the copying aura think. Not too bad of a consolation prize.

-Ken-
January 12, 2010, 10:24 PM
Another question. how would Echizen's samurai drive and Akutsu's Sliding work against Yukimura?

Sai_the_Shaman
January 12, 2010, 10:25 PM
Question: Can family member's get some sort of doubles synchro boost?

Like Yuushi/Kenya, Fuji/Yuuta or Ishida/Gin etc. Just thought about that....

Jyten
January 12, 2010, 10:51 PM
Not a stalker? He stalked people to copy their abilities, remember?
He has to watch tapes over and over again to understand how to copy something. Of course he would have the data.

Respect is irrelevant, it's not like Mizuki's ability only works with St.Rudolph members, and it's not like anyone outside of St.Rudolph would have any respect for him.

Anyway, the reason I picked Wakato was that he was a decent character. He could copy effects and all.

But then after I picked him, his effect became greatly nerfed when all the good effects began being "impossible to copy."

Which is okay and all, but I still think he should be able to copy Mizuki's effect for the reasons I provided above. If not...Eh, I'll accept the copying aura think. Not too bad of a consolation prize.

I think he just watched too much tennis....not actually stalked other players....Normally, he'd change his style to one of the professionals...not another middle school-er....

Again...its like Mizuki is the psuedo coach for St. Rudolph...and frankly...MILF coach already has that spot in Josei Shonan...or however you spell it. I can't see Wakato copying Mizuki to surpass her data.

Hmm...i thought I added the cannot be copied before we put it up...but I was on serious amounts of Night quil...so I might have been hallucinating.

Also, remember Wakato is only a 16 point char...we can't make him too broken.

Also, Sai we could make some level of formations for family members.

Kaoz
January 13, 2010, 01:58 AM
Another question. how would Echizen's samurai drive and Akutsu's Sliding work against Yukimura?

Ah, I'll start with the easier one, when playing Echizen using Yips, Yuki's Speed goes up by 8 points (to 21), Samurai Drive is not negated, neither through Yips nor through it's own effect as Yuki's Speed us above 20 but his Power is not.

From the way it's worded, Sliding's effect activates first but it doesn't matter that much, does it?

As this is starting to get more confusing, I might do a complete effect order list when I have enough time (i.e. on the weekend).


Question: Can family member's get some sort of doubles synchro boost?

Like Yuushi/Kenya, Fuji/Yuuta or Ishida/Gin etc. Just thought about that....

I'll think about it.

Sai_the_Shaman
January 13, 2010, 02:36 AM
I was also trying to come up with more doubles formations ^^;;

I noticed the lack of the Silver Pairs Australian Formation Fuuji {Australian Formation Sealer} (that super close formation they use) - http://www.mangatoshokan.com/read/Prince-of-Tennis/Fruity-Explosive-Translation/290/10
(I took that straight from my 40.5 fanbook)


Another one I was thinking was the Double Poach (AKA Rush Formation). It would only be able to be used by 2 Serves and Volleyers etc etc etc (Similar to Aggressive Formation, but not quite the same)

Then there's the formation Atobe and Kabaji used so early on in the street tennis match lol. Atobe sits down and Kabaji does all the work. In FTST, they have this formation and Kabaji pretty much auto returns everything.

There's also the 1 up 1 back counter punch formation, this is one I use most in real life. I keep a speedster in back who can counter punch the shots back and I stay up front read to put away a shot with one well placed volley once the opponents make the mistake of bringing it to the net.

These are jsut some ideas to throw around ^^;;

Bowser
January 13, 2010, 03:58 AM
Question (don't want to spam the other thread lol):
Perhaps first to three games will win automatically, so you don't have to play the last game? This way, we don't have to always have those 3-2s.

Jyten
January 14, 2010, 12:46 AM
Ah, I'll start with the easier one, when playing Echizen using Yips, Yuki's Speed goes up by 8 points (to 21), Samurai Drive is not negated, neither through Yips nor through it's own effect as Yuki's Speed us above 20 but his Power is not.

From the way it's worded, Sliding's effect activates first but it doesn't matter that much, does it?

As this is starting to get more confusing, I might do a complete effect order list when I have enough time (i.e. on the weekend).

I'll think about it.

I thought Echizen couldn't beat Yuki with Samurai Drive? I thought Echizen could only win through using Pop.

Unsure how that stacks up against the manga since I think it was Pop that beat Yuki and samurai drive was just the final move.

My only concern with using that type of wording is then Oni's black jack knife and Atobe's Rondo become monstrous to cancel. I think that if says it should cancel it should. Just too keep things simple.


Rant on...



Also, could we get rid of/change Kiraku's arrogance feat...like its not bad...but dang it makes him hard to use...he can beat like 2 people higher than him for that aren't doubles players....(Kenya and Mizuki...Mizuki if I'm lucky) Technically, Kenya might be a doubles player too.

Lower than him he loses to everyone above Chinen (Ties with him yet costs 7 more points). So, like 8 players. I don't count the doubles players since all of them are better than he is in doubles. He's still okay though since he'll beat anyone below Chinen in singles.

Plus, if I tired to use him in doubles with Kazuya or Yuki...I'd immediately get nerfed by arrogance since their like 64 and 80 base level respectively that is higher than most doubles pairs. Plus he only gives a +19...at best...at worst he gives a +16...which is still 3 points more than he costs...but...personally, I think he's the worst player in the league.

Granted so long as Yuki, Kazuya and Silver pair can pull out wins...I'm okay. If silver pair gets beat I'm pretty much screwed. Silver pair must win....I think pretty much everyone in the league can make two strong doubles teams and force me to lose in singles. Yeah....tomorrow I'll check to see if I literally lose to everyone in the league...if i do...well...I'll still play..but...I'll be a free win. :p

Or maybe just change Kiraku....if we give a bonus to the silver pair i'd be almost unstoppable...I don't want that...even if they lose to half of the potential doubles its okay. I just want a chance at winning.



Rant off...

Basically, I don't care that much and I'm really just complaining since I couldn't beat Sherlock though. :p

Sherlock Holmes
January 14, 2010, 11:19 AM
Question: Why is it that Niou's Illusion can only be used in Singles? It should be usable in doubles.

...I still want Wakato to be able to copy Mizuki *cough*


I think he just watched too much tennis....not actually stalked other players....Normally, he'd change his style to one of the professionals...not another middle school-er....
He copied Kaidoh. He can copy anyone, if he wants to. He has the brains to do it.

Oh, and as for Kiraku...Yeah. I say we raise the stakes a little. Make him drop 10 points when playing against someone weaker, and get boosted 10 points when playing against someone stronger.

Or something like "When playing against someone weaker, Kiraku automatically loses. When playing against someone stronger, he gets boosted 10 points."

KuwabaraTheMan
January 14, 2010, 12:44 PM
...I still want Wakato to be able to copy Mizuki *cough*

He copied Kaidoh. He can copy anyone, if he wants to. He has the brains to do it.

He copies play styles and abilities. Mizuki's predictions are something completely different, something that only he can do (even Inui can't make predictions on his level).

Kaoz
January 14, 2010, 02:11 PM
On Kiraku:
We could make his first Feat stronger, so that he is able to beat some more of the characters above him. Alternatively, we could change the Feats to not make his stats raise and drop but to negate Effects (if opponent is stronger) or has his own Effect negated (if opponent is weaker).

On Niou:
If he would be able to use Illusion in Doubles as well, Guess Who would be completely useless, so I think Illusion should stay restricted to Singles.

On Wakato:
As for the reasons that were already mentioned, I don't think he should be able to copy Mizuki.

On Shishido:
Rising Counter was meant to have both effects activated in Doubles but I changed it at some point. Looking at the result, I think I should change it back. It feels wrong that he can't pull the first part off in Doubles.


Question (don't want to spam the other thread lol):
Perhaps first to three games will win automatically, so you don't have to play the last game? This way, we don't have to always have those 3-2s.

I'm fine with that, I just took it over from the previous league but if we change it, it means less writing for me. :p

Sherlock Holmes
January 14, 2010, 02:56 PM
If you make it whoever wins the first 3 games, we'll have some more strategy added to the mix, since people don't want to lose the first 3 matches and end with -3 in their record, and people who try to go in for the kill so they can get +3 games.

javimgol
January 14, 2010, 04:54 PM
If you apply that, remember, I've won 3-1 my first match

Kaoz
January 14, 2010, 05:06 PM
If we do, I will, don't sweat it.

Sherlock Holmes
January 14, 2010, 05:26 PM
Question, if Mizuki's effect can't be negated, wouldn't it be fair for Niou's effect not to be negated as well?

Kaoz
January 14, 2010, 06:08 PM
Hmm, I'm not sure. Mizuki's effect can't be negated as he made his prediction before the match started and they self-negate when they are wrong.
Not sure about Niou, as for now, I'd say it sounds logic.

Jyten
January 14, 2010, 09:58 PM
Hmm, I'm not sure. Mizuki's effect can't be negated as he made his prediction before the match started and they self-negate when they are wrong.
Not sure about Niou, as for now, I'd say it sounds logic.

His effect could be pre-feats...as far as Nioh is concerned...people can still
"dispel" his illusion...sort of...he can still use most of the moves.

I think people can still cancel his copied effects/auras though. Just not change his stats back to the original just because people can cancel out the original user's effects/auras.

Kaoz
January 15, 2010, 11:35 AM
Was talking with Chaos about this in PMs and seeing what everyone else thinks for a future fan league (or this one if you want)

Basically custom characters. I know we have that create your own U-17 player thread (which seems dead now). I'm not saying they all have to be high tier or anything but here's how I think it could work.

Everyone can CHOOSE to create one (means you dont have to). League admins will then ask whether you want it to be a high, mid or low tier character. Depending on the tier/cost ration you are given a certain number or points to allocate to each stat. Furthermore you then create techs (effects, auras, feats, etc) that will then need to be approved by the admins (so they aren't over powered for the level/cost). This will not be an extra character but a replacement character. So if you create a high tier, he takes one of your high tier slots, mid tier, one of the mid tier slots, low to low etc.

I was just thinking about this since I know I wouldnt mind making my player int he create a character thread into a legit fan league character. Plus this will allow for players to feel like they have a good player when certain other ones are taken up so quickly.

Personally, I'd approve of this idea.

javimgol
January 15, 2010, 11:39 AM
Was talking with Chaos about this in PMs and seeing what everyone else thinks for a future fan league (or this one if you want)

Basically custom characters. I know we have that create your own U-17 player thread (which seems dead now). I'm not saying they all have to be high tier or anything but here's how I think it could work.

Everyone can CHOOSE to create one (means you dont have to). League admins will then ask whether you want it to be a high, mid or low tier character. Depending on the tier/cost ration you are given a certain number or points to allocate to each stat. Furthermore you then create techs (effects, auras, feats, etc) that will then need to be approved by the admins (so they aren't over powered for the level/cost). This will not be an extra character but a replacement character. So if you create a high tier, he takes one of your high tier slots, mid tier, one of the mid tier slots, low to low etc.

I was just thinking about this since I know I wouldnt mind making my player int he create a character thread into a legit fan league character. Plus this will allow for players to feel like they have a good player when certain other ones are taken up so quickly.

I told it before, I don´t like that idea.First of all, that sounds like an RPG. And this is just a forum. Second, the chances of creating broken characters are too high IMAO. And third and most important, Prince of Tennis is an universe enough big and complex, full of characters, and add our own characters sound like PoT world is not enough for us-

But I respect you if you want to do it.If it's only a custom player/team, I even consider to play in that league...But I told you, I don´t feel comfortable with that. If we want to make the league even more complicated, we could add Coaches, Captain's Bonus, Weather, Different Courts....

Sai_the_Shaman
January 15, 2010, 03:27 PM
Was talking with Chaos about this in PMs and seeing what everyone else thinks for a future fan league (or this one if you want)

Basically custom characters. I know we have that create your own U-17 player thread (which seems dead now). I'm not saying they all have to be high tier or anything but here's how I think it could work.

Everyone can CHOOSE to create one (means you dont have to). League admins will then ask whether you want it to be a high, mid or low tier character. Depending on the tier/cost ration you are given a certain number or points to allocate to each stat. Furthermore you then create techs (effects, auras, feats, etc) that will then need to be approved by the admins (so they aren't over powered for the level/cost). This will not be an extra character but a replacement character. So if you create a high tier, he takes one of your high tier slots, mid tier, one of the mid tier slots, low to low etc.

I was just thinking about this since I know I wouldnt mind making my player int he create a character thread into a legit fan league character. Plus this will allow for players to feel like they have a good player when certain other ones are taken up so quickly.

Sai_the_Shaman
January 15, 2010, 03:52 PM
weird, my post time is messed up....

Anyhow jav, I understand your feelings which is why I said it's an option.

To counter broken abilities we would raise the cost of the character and limit the other characters a person could choose. You can't really win with just one good character (unless it's Mizuki....and you're a good guesser)

Kaoz
January 16, 2010, 04:00 AM
Actually, I think our posts are messed up, at least their time is wrong...
[hr]
This one was a bit ignore, so here I go again:


On Shishido:
Rising Counter was meant to have both effects activated in Doubles but I changed it at some point. Looking at the result, I think I should change it back. It feels wrong that he can't pull the first part off in Doubles.

Comments, please.

javimgol
January 16, 2010, 08:01 AM
Actually, I think our posts are messed up, at least their time is wrong...
<hr noshade size="1">
This one was a bit ignore, so here I go again:


Comments, please.
Ok, for me.

Kaoz
January 17, 2010, 07:05 PM
If you guys don't make a comment, I'll change Shishido at the end of round 2, so if you're against that change, say so!

Sherlock Holmes
January 17, 2010, 09:29 PM
Wakato is not a stalker. So, he won't have the data needed for preparation and prediction. Plus, I see him being able to perfectly match how people move their bodies, and how they play, just not how they think. Nor does he have the respect form his teammates for them to follow exactly how he says. That is reserved for the MILF coach. :)

I think only Nioh was capable of that...granted Nioh...kind of seemed like a rip off of Wakato...so....yeah....unsure on which one's ability came out first. If you want he could copy an aura's too.

Forgot to clarify that, so Wakato can't copy Mizuki, but Nioh can?

Also, no objection to Shishido.

KuwabaraTheMan
January 17, 2010, 09:56 PM
The change to Shishido makes perfect sense to me.


Forgot to clarify that, so Wakato can't copy Mizuki, but Nioh can?

Mizuki's Prediction Master states that no one can copy it, so I'm pretty sure that still applies to Nioh.

Sherlock Holmes
January 17, 2010, 10:08 PM
The change to Shishido makes perfect sense to me.



Mizuki's Prediction Master states that no one can copy it, so I'm pretty sure that still applies to Nioh.

That's the thing we were discussing before. I asked if Wakato was an exception, Jyten said "no, but Nioh might..."

Kaoz
January 18, 2010, 01:46 AM
Well if Jyten said Niou might, I clearly say hearwith: "Niou can't!"

With that cleared, I'd like to bring up something else: Fuji.
I know he's my character so I'll leave the rest to you guys but I feel his last counter could be a bit stronger. It pretty much doesn't have any effect at all at the moment.

javimgol
January 18, 2010, 09:27 AM
Well if Jyten said Niou might, I clearly say hearwith: "Niou can't!"

With that cleared, I'd like to bring up something else: Fuji.
I know he's my character so I'll leave the rest to you guys but I feel his last counter could be a bit stronger. It pretty much doesn't have any effect at all at the moment.
Fuji is crap, true, if he still costs 40 points.If he 'd cost 36 points he would be good
The key to make Fuji good?
[Final Effect] Hoshi Hanabi
If the opponent is within 10 levels,each of Fuji's stats gets boosted 2 points (Singles only)

Kaoz
January 18, 2010, 09:48 AM
Dunno, I'd rather see a bit of improvement for the 5th counter instead of adding the 6th, I must say. Maybe something like halving all stats except Spin and being negated when opponent's Spin is X or higher...

javimgol
January 18, 2010, 10:04 AM
Dunno, I'd rather see a bit of improvement for the 5th counter instead of adding the 6th, I must say. Maybe something like halving all stats except Spin and being negated when opponent's Spin is X or higher...
Hoshi Hanabi is awesome. And Fuji needs a boost. Hoshi Hanabi is a good usual option for Fuji's coaches. If he predicts than he is going to play VS a player of a known style, the he'll use one of other counters.
And I don't know what is the link between Hecatoncheiros and Hoshi Hanabi...

-Ken-
January 18, 2010, 03:10 PM
Hoshi Hanabi should be something like

If Hecatoncheiros is negated, Fuji become awesome, or something like that. You make it so if any of his counter is negated, it occur, too.

Or maybe if it's the base total related effect? He seemed to evolve everytime he faced some tough opponent

Kaoz
January 18, 2010, 03:14 PM
I'm not sure, other than the usual "I evolve when all my other counters are broken and develop a new one" thing, is there any actual evidence that Hodhi Hanabi is triggeredwhen Hecatoncheiros is broken?
I don't think so and the evolving stuff is already covered in his feat.

-Ken-
January 18, 2010, 03:21 PM
In fact, in the manga, it stated that Hoshi Hanabi trigger on cord ball.

http://www.onemanga.com/Prince_of_Tennis/364/16/

The reason that I stated Hecatoncheiros is because it put enough spin that it's hard to put the ball across the net, so there's a high chance that it'll be cord ball.

You can't really know when the opponent is going to do cord ball through, it's quite rare, except in POT.

Kaoz
January 18, 2010, 03:25 PM
Oh right, I forgot about that, thanks.

How about this one then

Hoshi Hanabi [Effect]:
This Effect cannot be used. It triggers automatically once Hecatoncheiros is negated and doubles Fuji's Spin. This Effect can neither be copied nor can it be negated.

-Ken-
January 18, 2010, 03:33 PM
I like it, not sure about others, through.

Sherlock Holmes
January 18, 2010, 04:15 PM
Oh right, I forgot about that, thanks.

How about this one then

Hoshi Hanabi [Effect]:
This Effect cannot be used. It triggers automatically once Hecatoncheiros is negated and doubles Fuji's Spin. This Effect can neither be copied nor can it be negated.

What's with you and "this effect cannot be copied"?

There's no logical reason for it not to be copied lol.

Kaoz
January 18, 2010, 04:25 PM
Actually this time it's pretty logical (at least it wouldn't make sense to copy it).
The requirement that has to be met for this effect is that Hecatoncheires got negated before and I believe no other character has that effect, no?

javimgol
January 18, 2010, 04:34 PM
Oh right, I forgot about that, thanks.

How about this one then

Hoshi Hanabi [Effect]:
This Effect cannot be used. It triggers automatically once Hecatoncheiros is negated and doubles Fuji's Spin. This Effect can neither be copied nor can it be negated.
It's an effect only useful VS Shiraishi.
Ok, Fuji used it VS Niou-Shiraishi, but I think it could be used anywhere.
And why the hell do you link to Hecatoncheiros?? I don't know the link.
You could also say that Kagero Zutsumi is activated when the other 3 are cancellled, and Hecatoncheiros is activated when the other 4 are countered

My opinion:
this thread has been created to destroy my team. First Golden Pair, and now Shiraishi
The next one will reduce the points of Irie to 35 :D

Kaoz
January 18, 2010, 04:43 PM
It's an effect only useful VS Shiraishi.
Ok, Fuji used it VS Niou-Shiraishi, but I think it could be used anywhere.
And why the hell do you link to Hecatoncheiros?? I don't know the link.
You could also say that Kagero Zutsumi is activated when the other 3 are cancellled, and Hecatoncheiros is activated when the other 4 are countered

My opinion:
this thread has been created to destroy my team. First Golden Pair, and now Shiraishi
The next one will reduce the points of Irie to 35 :D

This:


In fact, in the manga, it stated that Hoshi Hanabi trigger on cord ball.

http://www.onemanga.com/Prince_of_Tennis/364/16/

The reason that I stated Hecatoncheiros is because it put enough spin that it's hard to put the ball across the net, so there's a high chance that it'll be cord ball.

You can't really know when the opponent is going to do cord ball through, it's quite rare, except in POT.

Hoshi Hanabi requires a cord ball to activate which is usually archieved through Hecatoncheiros.

Also, where the heck is your team destoyed, GP wasn't nerfed and we didn't even touch Shiraishi.

Sai_the_Shaman
January 18, 2010, 04:47 PM
the reason you need to link hecatoncheiros is because the only possible return is a cord ball.

Hoshi Hanabi is a counter specifically for cord balls. It only works on a cord ball.

EDIT: You people are way to fast...

javimgol
January 18, 2010, 04:53 PM
the reason you need to link hecatoncheiros is because the only possible return is a cord ball.

Hoshi Hanabi is a counter specifically for cord balls. It only works on a cord ball.

EDIT: You people are way to fast...
I don't understand it very well
It can only be used when the oponent hits a cord ball (to return Hecatoncheiros)?

Also, the first 3 counters (or, at less, Higuma Otoshi) should be possible to be copied by all the people. Atobe, Oshitari or even Kirihara (with Muga)spammed it. Hecatocheiros and Kagero Zutsumi is another story

Kaoz
January 18, 2010, 05:02 PM
I don't understand it very well
It can only be used when the oponent hits a cord ball (to return Hecatoncheiros)?

Also, the first 3 counters (or, at less, Higuma Otoshi) should be possible to be copied by all the people. Atobe, Oshitari or even Kirihara (with Muga)spammed it. Hecatocheiros and Kagero Zutsumi is another story

It's like so: Fuji spams Hecatoncheiros and the return hits the net for a large number of points. Now if people (like Shirashi) happen to get it over the net, it's usually a cord ball => Hoshi Hanabi which can only be sued on cord balls (maybe because of a special spin put on the ball, no idea).

Also, Fuji currently doesn't posess the Triple Counters themselves but their evolved versions which weren't used by anyone else. I don't know whether it's copyable though.

Sai_the_Shaman
January 18, 2010, 05:09 PM
Well all of Fuji's counters are jsut that. They counter styles and shots

Higuma Otoshi is a counter for smashes
Tsubame Gaeshi is a counter for Baseline Returns
Hakugei is a counter for Volleys
Kagerou Zutsumi is a counter for speed players (or players that can cover the court in general)
Hecatoncheires no Monban is a counter for general all rounders who can supposedly return everything else)
Hoshi Hanabi is a counter for cord balls (which is the main way of returning the 5th counter)

Kaoz
January 18, 2010, 05:12 PM
Well all of Fuji's counters are jsut that. They counter styles and shots

Higuma Otoshi is a counter for smashes
Tsubame Gaeshi is a counter for Baseline Returns
Hakugei is a counter for Volleys
Kagerou Zutsumi is a counter for speed players (or players that can cover the court in general)
Hecatoncheires no Monban is a counter for general all rounders who can supposedly return everything else)
Hoshi Hanabi is a counter for cord balls (which is the main way of returning the 5th counter)

That sums it up pretty much.

Now that I look at it, he still needs a counter for serves, no? :p

KuwabaraTheMan
January 18, 2010, 05:13 PM
Also, Fuji currently doesn't posess the Triple Counters themselves but their evolved versions which weren't used by anyone else. I don't know whether it's copyable though.

Why wouldn't they be copyable? They're the same basic shots, just better than they were before.

Sherlock Holmes
January 18, 2010, 05:14 PM
Also, Fuji currently doesn't posess the Triple Counters themselves but their evolved versions which weren't used by anyone else. I don't know whether it's copyable though.
Okay, you need to check-in in a rehabilitation clinic for people who suffer of clinical "it's not copyable" syndrome.

Kaoz
January 18, 2010, 05:17 PM
I have no idea but everything can be (im)possible in PoT.

No seriously, it's highly likely that they can be copied.
[hr]

Okay, you need to check-in in a rehabilitation clinic for people who suffer of clinical "it's not copyable" syndrome.

Again?
I want my money back for the last time I was there then.

-Ken-
January 18, 2010, 05:25 PM
The reason that Hoshi Hanabi work only on cord ball might be because once the ball hit cord there rarely any spin left on the ball, I guess. So it's easier to control the direction. I really can't think of any other reason, but this is POT anyway.

Sherlock Holmes
January 18, 2010, 05:53 PM
-Black Jack Knife [Effect]:
(1) Oni’s Power gets boosted by 15. If the opponent has a Spin stat of 10 or more, this effect is negated.
(2) The opponent’s Effects are nullified.
(3) This effect cannot be copied.

...Cannot be copied...Because?


-Intimidation [Effect]:
The opponent’s Control and Power drop by 5 points each. This effect cannot be copied.

Shouldn't this be a feat?


-Total Control [Opening Effect]:
Unless the opponent has a Control of at least 15 he cannot use any effects or aura’s that increase his power, speed or spin. This effect cannot be copied.

...Feat?

-The Strongest [Effect]:
Ryoga’s Power and Control get boosted by 5 points each.
This effect cannot be copied.

Feat?


-Yips [Effect]:
All of the opponent’s Effects and Auras are negated with the exception of Pinnacle of Perfection and Pinnacle of Destruction.
This effect cannot be copied.

Why? No evidence so far that someone can't copy it.

-Samurai Drive [Effect]:
Echizen Spin is boosted by 10. This effect is negated if the opponent’s Power and Speed stats are both 20 or above. In that case, Echizen loses the match. This effect cannot be copied by anyone nor can it be negated.

If anyone is going to copy something, they are going to copy Hadokyuu. Samurai Drive not being copyable just makes Niou weaker. It being copyable wouldn't make the game broken at all.

-Laser Shot [Effect]:
Yagyuu’s Power is boosted by 2.

Can I just complain about how much Yagyuu costs and his very useless effect?

-Crucify [Final Effect]:
If the opponent’s Speed is within 2 points of Krauser’s, Krauser automatically wins. (Singles only)
This effect cannot be copied.

I agree that the potential for abuse is too great but the copy trio(Wakato, Niou and Kabaji) should be able to copy it. 3 characters whose ONLY ability is to copy(they don't even have feats other than that!), copying a good effect is not an abuse. It's what they are supposed to do!

Sai_the_Shaman
January 18, 2010, 06:12 PM
I'd like to know why World of Ice is copyable?

It's akin to Jiro's Magic Volley. It can't be copied because it's an extension of Atobe's god given talent of Insight. Jsut liek Jiro's wrists are what allow him to do his Magic Volley.

Also I'd like to propose a feat or effect for Atobe being either Tannhauser Serve [feat] or Super Attack Style [feat]. (Lol then again you could probably add Jack Knife, Higuma Otoshi or Viking Horn too)

For Super Attack Style I propose it to be a conditional feat
something like if the opponents total is within 2 points of Atobe's, Atobe's power and speed are boosted by so many.... or whatever get's approved.... (I thought of this after rereading the Atobe vs Ryoma fight where the coach mentions how Atobe likes to play with his opponents to crush them mentally and physically but how when he's against a great opponent he will play seriously)
[hr]
for Yagyuu I propose a name change to be Laser Beam (the actual name) and it should be boosting speed considerably

Also for Kaidou it should be Gyro Laser and it should be faster than Yagyuu's

As for Yukimura's Yips, I'll liken it to being uncopiable like Tezuka Zone. Don't you think other Muga users would have shown it being usable if they could?

Kaoz
January 18, 2010, 06:27 PM
-Black Jack Knife [Effect]:
(1) Oni’s Power gets boosted by 15. If the opponent has a Spin stat of 10 or more, this effect is negated.
(2) The opponent’s Effects are nullified.
(3) This effect cannot be copied.

...Cannot be copied...Because?


-Intimidation [Effect]:
The opponent’s Control and Power drop by 5 points each. This effect cannot be copied.

Shouldn't this be a feat?


-Total Control [Opening Effect]:
Unless the opponent has a Control of at least 15 he cannot use any effects or aura’s that increase his power, speed or spin. This effect cannot be copied.

...Feat?

-The Strongest [Effect]:
Ryoga’s Power and Control get boosted by 5 points each.
This effect cannot be copied.

Feat?


-Yips [Effect]:
All of the opponent’s Effects and Auras are negated with the exception of Pinnacle of Perfection and Pinnacle of Destruction.
This effect cannot be copied.

Why? No evidence so far that someone can't copy it.

-Samurai Drive [Effect]:
Echizen Spin is boosted by 10. This effect is negated if the opponent’s Power and Speed stats are both 20 or above. In that case, Echizen loses the match. This effect cannot be copied by anyone nor can it be negated.

If anyone is going to copy something, they are going to copy Hadokyuu. Samurai Drive not being copyable just makes Niou weaker. It being copyable wouldn't make the game broken at all.

-Laser Shot [Effect]:
Yagyuu’s Power is boosted by 2.

Can I just complain about how much Yagyuu costs and his very useless effect?

-Crucify [Final Effect]:
If the opponent’s Speed is within 2 points of Krauser’s, Krauser automatically wins. (Singles only)
This effect cannot be copied.

I agree that the potential for abuse is too great but the copy trio(Wakato, Niou and Kabaji) should be able to copy it. 3 characters whose ONLY ability is to copy(they don't even have feats other than that!), copying a good effect is not an abuse. It's what they are supposed to do!

The High-schooler's Effects not being copyable wasn't totally my idea, Jyten wanted it like that, simply because they are too strong and would unbalance things.

Yukimura is God, there doesn't have to be a reason. Also, Shiraishi's Bible is copyable which does partly the same.

On Echizen, I mistook it for another effect, this one could be copyable by the 3 that you stated.

You may not complain about Yagyuu.

All in all it's not that easy to say which effects can/cannot be copied. For once, those characters whose only ability is copying should be useful, on the other hand they should not be too useful. Copying itself is very strong as it grants access to everything there is.

The second problem is that those three characters copy entirely different from each other. Kabaji is the one that differs the most as he can only copy those he directly plays against, which is represented here.
I admit Niou is a genius at copying, being able to copy anyone and use nearly all of their techniques.
It's another thing with Wakato, he mainly copies playstyles and habits, not especially techniques. The difference between Niou and Wakato for example is that Niou could copy TPhantom whereas Wakato couldn't even copy Boomerang.
What I want to say is, all what you said is right considering Niou (and Kabaji partly) but not Wakato, I think.

-Ken-
January 18, 2010, 06:30 PM
Yagyuu should have snake also, he use it in the match before national and again against Niou. And yes, the name change would be nice also. His laser beam should also be power-up, it's a very powerful move.

Atobe's attacking, if it would become an ability, should change his playstyle and trigger if opponent base is greater, if you ask me.

Yips shouldn't be able to be copy, since it's a tech from Yuki (If that even make sense). Still, there's Akutsu's Sliding that copyable, and it trigger even faster. It's cool enough if you ask me

Copy version of Samurai Drive should be nerf if copyable like Chaos said. It seemed to be the 'ultimate tech' of POT1. I really want to see how Tezuka Zone would really react to it. I'll laugh as hell if it suck in both ball. Seriously speaking, if a ball is cut in half, all spin on that ball should be destroy at that moment.

EDIT: Now that I look at Hadokyuu, it feel weird that Hadokyuu is more power than the long name shot that I'll never remember the name of Kintarou. Gin stated it himself that that long name shot is more powerful than his 108 style.

Can now that we at it. Can I suggest that Aizen... I mean Echizen have Pinnacle of Great Wisdom and Hard Work, he shown the ability to use itXD

Sherlock Holmes
January 18, 2010, 06:37 PM
Why can't I complain about Yagyuu, but you can about Fuji? lol.



As for Yukimura's Yips, I'll liken it to being uncopiable like Tezuka Zone. Don't you think other Muga users would have shown it being usable if they could?
There are other effects that do the same thing, I was just curious.

As for Wakato...I'll watch his episode and come back. But from your reply, I take that Kabaji and Niou can copy Krauser, but Wakato can't until I prove otherwise?

Kaoz
January 18, 2010, 06:52 PM
Why can't I complain about Yagyuu, but you can about Fuji? lol.


There are other effects that do the same thing, I was just curious.

As for Wakato...I'll watch his episode and come back. But from your reply, I take that Kabaji and Niou can copy Krauser, but Wakato can't until I prove otherwise?

My, my, you can complain as well, the other points just seemed more important to adress at that time. I'll take a look at Yagyuu later.

As for Wakato, that's right. When you can prove, he can do it, he naturally can.

-Ken-
January 18, 2010, 11:07 PM
Chaos, are you going to add the 6th counter? Just wondering

javimgol
January 19, 2010, 09:26 AM
1.Fuji needs a boost. He costs 40 points! Hoshi Hanabi should be awesome, but not only a effect to use VS players who cancel effects (just like my team)

2.Yagyyu is a beast, he has the best Feat of the game. No more boosts, please

3. Samurai Drive should be impossible to be copied. It's too much. Same goes to Yips and High Scholars's Effects, They are simply in another level.

4.Sherlock, IMAO you don't realize how good is Niou, considering his cost. I remember you, he reaches 45-8= 37 + 6(Hadokyyu) = 43 points. Chitose, who costs the same, reaches 40 with PoW. And with my discover (you owe me one ;) ), you reach 39 + 3 points of auto-win before any Aura thanks to Ryoma's Illusion and 'Muging' Kintaro's Daisharin Yamaarashi.

5.One thing: if Niou copies Krauser to use Crucify, does he reduce his points to Krauser's?

6. All of Fuji's abilities should be possible to be copied by everyone without problems, except Hoshi Hanabi

Kaoz
January 19, 2010, 10:35 AM
1.Fuji needs a boost. He costs 40 points! Hoshi Hanabi should be awesome, but not only a effect to use VS players who cancel effects (just like my team)

2.Yagyyu is a beast, he has the best Feat of the game. No more boosts, please

3. Samurai Drive should be impossible to be copied. It's too much. Same goes to Yips and High Scholars's Effects, They are simply in another level.

4.Sherlock, IMAO you don't realize how good is Niou, considering his cost. I remember you, he reaches 45-8= 37 + 6(Hadokyyu) = 43 points. Chitose, who costs the same, reaches 40 with PoW. And with my discover (you owe me one ;) ), you reach 39 + 3 points of auto-win before any Aura thanks to Ryoma's Illusion and 'Muging' Kintaro's Daisharin Yamaarashi.

5.One thing: if Niou copies Krauser to use Crucify, does he reduce his points to Krauser's?

6. All of Fuji's abilities should be possible to be copied by everyone without problems, except Hoshi Hanabi

2. Yagyuu basically gets a 12 point boost (15 points vs a negate character), that's one of the highest boosts we have. Also he and Niou are a strong doubles as well, if anything his cost would have been reduced by 1 or 2 points at the most.

4. What are you talking about?

5. Illusion states that the stats remain the same against a weaker character.

6. Triple Counters? Yes. Evolved Triple Counters? Yes.
Kagero Zutsumi? Probably. Hecatonchires? I highly doubt it. I can't really imagine anyone else to put that insane amount of Spin on the ball.

Sherlock Holmes
January 19, 2010, 10:57 AM
Yagyuu has a great boost. Now, mind taking a look at his base stats? 31 points. Compare him to Kintarou, who costs the same, and has a just-as-awesome feat, and you can guess why I'm complaining.

Renji, who only costs 1 point more, has stronger base stats and gets a +13 point effect/feat.

Can you see why I think that Yagyuu is weak, in comparison to the other characters that cost the same as him?

Kaoz
January 19, 2010, 11:16 AM
Yagyuu is better in Doubles than Kintarou, I can't argue Renji at the moment though.

Sai_the_Shaman
January 19, 2010, 01:04 PM
I'd like to propose a different build for Yagyuu since I don't agree with a couple of things for him as well.

something like

Yagyuu (8, 11, 5, 9, 33) 40
Aggressive Baseliner

-The Gentleman [Feat]:
Yagyuu gets boosted by 2 point in every stat, whereas the opponent’s highest stat drops by 2.

-Losing Reputation [Feat]:
If Laser Shot is negated, Yagyuu’s Spin is boosted by 5.

-Laser Beam [Effect]:
Yagyuu’s Power is boosted by 2.

Plus one new effect, possibly

-Cosplay [Effect]
Yagyuu dresses like another player and can imitate an effect that will lower the stats of his opponent or boost his own stats at 1/3 strength.

or

-Snake [Effect]:
Yagyuu’s Spin is boosted by 3 points.

Kaoz
January 19, 2010, 01:51 PM
I'd like to propose a different build for Yagyuu since I don't agree with a couple of things for him as well.

something like

Yagyuu (8, 11, 5, 9, 33) 40
Aggressive Baseliner

-The Gentleman [Feat]:
Yagyuu gets boosted by 2 point in every stat, whereas the opponent’s highest stat drops by 2.

-Losing Reputation [Feat]:
If Laser Shot is negated, Yagyuu’s Spin is boosted by 5.

-Laser Beam [Effect]:
Yagyuu’s Power is boosted by 2.

Plus one new effect, possibly

-Cosplay [Effect]
Yagyuu dresses like another player and can imitate an effect that will lower the stats of his opponent or boost his own stats at 1/3 strength.

or

-Snake [Effect]:
Yagyuu’s Spin is boosted by 3 points.

I'd rather add Snake. Even though he copied Snake, it's not unlikely he could use it anyways, seeing as Jackal had Bomerang as well. Yagyuu is not a master of Illusion like Niou, so I don't think he could copy other player's techniques better than anyone else on his level.

Sai_the_Shaman
January 19, 2010, 01:57 PM
He may not be a master, but he has shown a penchant for copying techniques and cosplaying as other players. I would say he was fairly successful in pulling off Niou and Kaidou. Which is why I gave him such a low copy ratio. In the match against Niou, Niou even makes a comment how Yagyuu's Trickery has gotten better.

At the same time it woudl seem Yagyuu right now has a semi Kaidou ability and can differ his Laser and a normal snake without changing his form.

Kaoz
January 19, 2010, 02:19 PM
I didn't mean to say that cosplay wouldn't fit at all, it's just that I personally think Snake would fit better.

javimgol
January 19, 2010, 03:08 PM
Shiraishi will defeat Renji, but no Yagyyu. Feat>Effects.
The only who can stop Feats are Irie and Jimmies LOL

Please, no more boosts to Yagyyu.

Sherlock Holmes
January 19, 2010, 04:09 PM
Shiraishi will defeat Renji, but no Yagyyu. Feat>Effects.
The only who can stop Feats are Irie and Jimmies LOL

Please, no more boosts to Yagyyu.

I'm not sure if you understand, but I'm complaining about Yagyuu VERY low base stats, not his effect. He could either get a boost on his base stats, or an effect.

javimgol
January 22, 2010, 03:54 PM
Sengoku(5, 5, 6, 6, 25)
5+5+6+6= 22, not 25

I noticed that because I'm making an adaptation to a Bleach Fan League, and I can not waste the hours than first Sherlock, Atobe and Fayte and then Jyten and Chaos have used to create a balanced game:p

Kaoz
January 22, 2010, 04:01 PM
Sengoku(5, 5, 6, 6, 25)
5+5+6+6= 22, not 25

I noticed that because I'm making an adaptation to a Bleach Fan League, and I can not waste the hours than first Sherlock, Atobe and Fayte and then Jyten and Chaos have used to create a balanced game:p

Oops, must've made a typo there, sorry. I changed it.

Say, are you simply using our characters and rephrase them a bit or what do you mean by that comment?

javimgol
January 23, 2010, 03:30 AM
Oops, must've made a typo there, sorry. I changed it.

Say, are you simply using our characters and rephrase them a bit or what do you mean by that comment?

Yes:D
If you want a copyright or sth like that...
If Sherlock wants, I'll send him, he knows a bit of Spanish, if I remember well

OffTopic
The bad point is translating everything to Spanish. Translating 25 pages of a Word doc, with a 11's size letter is truly a hard work

Kaoz
January 23, 2010, 06:16 PM
Yes:D
If you want a copyright or sth like that...
If Sherlock wants, I'll send him, he knows a bit of Spanish, if I remember well

OffTopic
The bad point is translating everything to Spanish. Translating 25 pages of a Word doc, with a 11's size letter is truly a hard work

Well, if anyone were to have copyright it would be Sherlock, I suppose, it was his idea in the first place after all.

And if you say the translating is hard work, I think making all those things up wasn't that easy either haha
[hr]
I don't really like the current Muga we have, so here is an alternate version:

Current version:

-Muga no Kyouchi [Aura]:
Echizen copies the effect of one player. If that effect would add points to any stat, half the points are added instead.

V2:

-Muga no Kyouchi [Aura]:
All of Echizen's stats are boosted by 1.5 points. Alternatively, Echizen can copy any one Effect of a player, whom he faced in this season.

What do you guys think?

-Ken-
January 23, 2010, 07:55 PM
That sound better and a lot more powerful. I seemed more accurate to the series as well, because it's how it is described in the manga. If this is the case, would other copy skill become better as well?

Kaoz
January 23, 2010, 08:01 PM
If you are refering to 'other copy skill', are you talking about Niou etc?
Also do you mean more powerfull or more manga like?

-Ken-
January 24, 2010, 12:08 AM
I do mean Niou and Kabaji, to be exact. It's both more powerful and more manga like, copying in the manga doesn't seem to have a drawback like 'less powerful' than the original, (maybe Echizen Zero Drop against Hiyoshu). At least that's the impression that I'm getting from. Maybe Niou copy of Tezuka is not perfect, but the move that he can copy, he can do it perfectly.

Also, it's not really matter at this time, but can you consider this guy http://www.onemanga.com/New_Prince_of_Tennis/2/13/ to be add to the League next season?

He's the only high schooler that really fight (I mean we saw his move, the magnum serve) beside Oni. I don't think he's a bad choice to add. What do you think?

Kaoz
January 24, 2010, 03:55 AM
Hmm, I'll think about those two, maybe Niou could copy everything at full power but wouldn't get the stat boost?

Also, if I remember correctly, Echizen didn't use any special technique to copy Zeroshiki, his was just worse than Tezuka's.

About the high schooler, we shall see, maybe there will be more players introduced till we finish this season.

javimgol
January 24, 2010, 04:07 AM
I like the previous Muga. Muga is not as good as we thought in the beginning, only Ryoma spams it, and it's a doubled edged sword beacuse of how tired is the user after using it. The other known Muga users don't use consciously (Sanada, Yukimira, Chitose, Tezuka and Kirihara), so it should be worse than their other effects.

If you make Muga broken, the Muga user won't use their Pinnacles, Yips or special abilities. The only who should use Muga as a good option is maybe Akaya

Kaoz
January 24, 2010, 10:21 AM
I like the previous Muga. Muga is not as good as we thought in the beginning, only Ryoma spams it, and it's a doubled edged sword beacuse of how tired is the user after using it. The other known Muga users don't use consciously (Sanada, Yukimira, Chitose, Tezuka and Kirihara), so it should be worse than their other effects.

If you make Muga broken, the Muga user won't use their Pinnacles, Yips or special abilities. The only who should use Muga as a good option is maybe Akaya

First of all, you know that only the boost OR the copying can be activated, yes?

Secondly, I believe it's still worse than the other Auras, the only Effect where copying might become problematic is Hadokyuu and you would have to face a Hadokyuu user before you can copy it, so I don't think it'd be broken.

-Ken-
January 24, 2010, 05:19 PM
I feel like Akaya Muga should only be activate when he faced opponent with higher base total. He has it, no doubt, but he cannot activate it whenever he want. The character that can activate it whenever he want in the series is only Echizen, Sanada, and Yukimura (I'm unsure about Tezuka and Chitose)

Kaoz
January 24, 2010, 05:53 PM
I feel like Akaya Muga should only be activate when he faced opponent with higher base total. He has it, no doubt, but he cannot activate it whenever he want. The character that can activate it whenever he want in the series is only Echizen, Sanada, and Yukimura (I'm unsure about Tezuka and Chitose)

I'm pretty sure they can, for once it'd be pathetic if they couldn't, for seconds they can activate their Pinnacles at will, as those are doors of Muga, they have to activate it too, no?

Sai_the_Shaman
January 25, 2010, 04:48 PM
Here's a breakdown on Muga and copying in general from the manga as far as I can recall

Ryoma - Full Control over Muga (he seems to even be able to control the moves he uses in it)
Akaya - Unconcious use of Muga
Chitose, Yukimura, Sanada - I assume Full control, out of the 3 we have only seen sanada use it and he never actually copied anything with it. Yukimura would never use it since he thinks it's a waste of energy. Chitose wouldn't use it since he has Saiki.

Tezuka - I would assume he has it, but we have never had a confirmed instance of him using it. However, he has copied techniques while use Hyakuren before. Int he match against Sanada when he return Ka with it, he returns with another doubled Ka.

Kabaji can/should be able copy pretty much everything except feats

I still hold by the belief that Niou needs time to set up his illusion on his opponents (which is why he lost to Yagyuu, who he had no clue he would be needing to face).

Change Over guy (wakato?), I think he should really only be able to copy playstyles and get a certain boost depending on the play style

I like the new version of Muga, but I'm for Akaya's having a limit on it.

Akaya's muga needs to have either an activation only against higher level opponents (and he can't activate Devil Mode if he uses Muga. The reasoning behind this is simply that Devil Mode is kind of the opposite of Muga, where he wants revenge and is full of self. Muga on the other hand is a selfless state) or a bit of randomness thrown into it. For example, maybe have the user choose 2 moves and flip a coin, whichever wins is the move he uses.

I would also like to add a stipulation to Niou's illusion. If Niou correctly predicts the opponent he will be facing then keep his current illusion (or even make it stronger). If he incorrectly predicts, cut the points further by 1/2 (I have a feeling that Sherlock may like this just to prove how badass he is at predictions lol)

I'm against having Muga added to the other characters mainly cause all of them have reasons for not using it. Yukimura thinks it's a waste of stamina, Tezuka has never shown an official use of it, I have a feeling Sanada only used it against the last point with Ryoma cause he had Rai and In sealed on himself, Chitose has Saiki and deems Muga beneath him it seems. They all don't need to have it.

javimgol
January 25, 2010, 05:12 PM
Here's a breakdown on Muga and copying in general from the manga as far as I can recall

Ryoma - Full Control over Muga (he seems to even be able to control the moves he uses in it)
Akaya - Unconcious use of Muga
Chitose, Yukimura, Sanada - I assume Full control, out of the 3 we have only seen sanada use it and he never actually copied anything with it. Yukimura would never use it since he thinks it's a waste of energy. Chitose wouldn't use it since he has Saiki.

Tezuka - I would assume he has it, but we have never had a confirmed instance of him using it. However, he has copied techniques while use Hyakuren before. Int he match against Sanada when he return Ka with it, he returns with another doubled Ka.

Kabaji can/should be able copy pretty much everything except feats

I still hold by the belief that Niou needs time to set up his illusion on his opponents (which is why he lost to Yagyuu, who he had no clue he would be needing to face).

Change Over guy (wakato?), I think he should really only be able to copy playstyles and get a certain boost depending on the play style

I like the new version of Muga, but I'm for Akaya's having a limit on it.

Akaya's muga needs to have either an activation only against higher level opponents (and he can't activate Devil Mode if he uses Muga. The reasoning behind this is simply that Devil Mode is kind of the opposite of Muga, where he wants revenge and is full of self. Muga on the other hand is a selfless state) or a bit of randomness thrown into it. For example, maybe have the user choose 2 moves and flip a coin, whichever wins is the move he uses.

I would also like to add a stipulation to Niou's illusion. If Niou correctly predicts the opponent he will be facing then keep his current illusion (or even make it stronger). If he incorrectly predicts, cut the points further by 1/2 (I have a feeling that Sherlock may like this just to prove how badass he is at predictions lol)

I'm against having Muga added to the other characters mainly cause all of them have reasons for not using it. Yukimura thinks it's a waste of stamina, Tezuka has never shown an official use of it, I have a feeling Sanada only used it against the last point with Ryoma cause he had Rai and In sealed on himself, Chitose has Saiki and deems Muga beneath him it seems. They all don't need to have it.
1)About Niou's prediction:It's easier to guess in PoT that in our game, so no handicaps if Niou fails.Niou was sure he was going to face Fuji, or Golden Pair.Here, he only depends of lucky a Sherlock's mind. If he is right, he could use the full points or use the effect at 100%
2)So, Muga only for Ryoma and Akaya? And Muga for Ryoma will be always worse than Pinnacle of Perfection or Samurai Drive, except if he plays VS Gin. Akaya has Devil Mode...We could simply erase it. If TPhantom and Heactoncherios are not here, I won't miss Muga

-Ken-
January 25, 2010, 06:15 PM
http://www.onemanga.com/Prince_of_Tennis/309/06-07/
Chitose do use Muga, I kind of forgot about it.

Everyone except Akaya should be able to use Muga freely in my opinion. Akaya should have some restriction(like when playing with higher base total only).

I also want to propose some change on the pinnacle of wisdom as it is doesn't show what it is in the manga exactly, I think it should be more on the line of what Zero Drop is right now (+point depending on the playstyle). On this note, I think that world of ice should negate your opponent effect instead of what it's doing right now, wouldn't it make more sense that way?

Kaoz
January 25, 2010, 06:23 PM
First of all, thanks for that overview, Sai.
Based on that, let me suggest the following to you guys:

Echizen:
-Muga no Kyouchi [Aura]:
Choose one:
(1) All of Echizen's stats are boosted by 1.5 points.
(2) Echizen can copy any one Effect of a player, whom he faced in this season.


Kirihara (7, 8, 8, 7, 30) 33
Aggressive Baseliner

-Knuckle Serve [Effect]:
Each of the opponent’s stats besides Spin drops by 2.

-Muga no Kyouchi [Final Aura]:
Kirihara can copy any one Effect of a player, whom he faced that season. This Aura is negated if the opponent's total is lower than Kirihara's.

-Devil Mode [Final Aura]:
If the opponent’s total is higher than Kirihara’s, all of Kirihara's stats are boosted by 1.5 points.


Yukimura, Sanada and Chitose have their Mugas deleted, Kabaji stays the way he is at the moment.

Wakato (4, 4, 4, 7, 19) 16
All-rounder

-Change Over! [Feat]:
Wakato has to choose one player before the match, his playstyle and dominant hand change accordingly. Depending on whether the copied playstyle has an advantage/disadvantage against the opponent's playstyle the following bonus is applied:
-Advantage -> +1.5 to all stats
-Neutral -> +0
-Disadvantage -> -0.5 to all stats
The order of advantages is:
-Serve&Volley advantage vs Defensive Baseliner
-Defensive Baseliner advantage vs Aggressive Baseliner
-Aggressive Baseliner advantage vs Serve&Volley
-All-rounder always counts as Neutral

-Buggy Whip Shot [Effect]:
Wakato's Spin is boosted by 2 points.


Niou:
-Unpredictable [Feat]:
If the opponent would use a Feat or an Effect called ‘Data Tennis’, that Feat/Effect is negated.

-Illusion [Effect]:
When playing Singles, Niou can copy one Effect OR Aura from any chosen player. He also copies that players playstyle and dominant hand. This effect cannot be copied or negated.

So, what do you think?
[hr]

http://www.onemanga.com/Prince_of_Tennis/309/06-07/
Chitose do use Muga, I kind of forgot about it.

Everyone except Akaya should be able to use Muga freely in my opinion. Akaya should have some restriction(like when playing with higher base total only).

I also want to propose some change on the pinnacle of wisdom as it is doesn't show what it is in the manga exactly, I think it should be more on the line of what Zero Drop is right now (+point depending on the playstyle). On this note, I think that world of ice should negate your opponent effect instead of what it's doing right now, wouldn't it make more sense that way?

Chitose does... well I suppose his version would be the same as Echizen's, maybe only a 1 point boost though.

As for the Pinnacle, I'm aware that it's not really accurate but it doesn't work with playstyles either, I think. If you have a suggestion, feel free to post it.

Sai_the_Shaman
January 25, 2010, 06:26 PM
That works for me.

What about the changes to Atobe and Yagyuu we talked about before???
[hr]
and yeah, I completely forgot about the fact he actually used ti against tachibana....

Kaoz
January 25, 2010, 06:35 PM
For Yagyuu, I'd propose this:
-Guess Who? the 2nd [Effect]
Yagyuu copies the Effect of any player he already played or partnered with in this season. If that Effect would increase/decrease any stats, those changes apply only to 30%.

It's a variation of the cosplay skill you suggested.

Atobe:
-Real Form [Opening Feat]:
When playing an opponent with a higher base total, Atobe's playstyle changes to Aggressive Baseliner and all of his stats are boosted by 2 points.

If this were to be included, Atobe's base stats would lower quite a bit though.

Sai_the_Shaman
January 25, 2010, 06:46 PM
I would be for renaming the feat for Atobe to Super Attack Style.

It shouldn't change him to an aggressive baseliner though. The point of the style is mainly to make Atobe serious in a match. I think it should be a final feat and if the opponents stats end up being higher than Atobe's in the end he boosts his total by 2-5 (you can choose by however many). That way it isn't too over powered.

The reasoning for the final feat is mainly because in the match against Ryoma he didn't really go into until Ryoma got the upperhand on WoI.

Kaoz
January 25, 2010, 06:51 PM
I don't mind the name but simply giving him some points wouldn't be Atobe's style, now would it? I'll think it over though.

Sai_the_Shaman
January 25, 2010, 07:03 PM
I think that's actually the point though. When he goes into it, he throws away his style of wanting to crush his opponents mentally and physically and goes straight for a win.

Kaoz
January 25, 2010, 07:07 PM
I know but that doen't change that I'm unhapppy with only a boost (at least such a small one).
How about we lowqer his base stats, change his playstyle to Baseliner (I think it was, no?) and have him gain a huge stat boost and playstyle change through the Feat?

Sai_the_Shaman
January 25, 2010, 07:11 PM
Atobe's always been an All Rounder type. Pair Puri said so.

I don't mind if we lower his stats by a bit and give him a huge boost, it works out to be the same either way.

I don't see a reason to make him any other style than all rounder though.

Kaoz
January 25, 2010, 07:24 PM
Well, there isn't actually any reason, I just caught a liking to playstyle changes haha.

Let's get this done then:

Atobe (7, 9, 9, 10, 36) 45
All-rounder

Super Attack Style [Final Feat]:
If the opponent's total is higher than Atobe's, all of Atobe's stats are boosted by 2 points. In doubles, this applies to both team's totals.

Sai_the_Shaman
January 25, 2010, 07:57 PM
Sounds good to me. Now if only I could get a Hyoutei chant feat XD (that would be too much though lol)

Sherlock Holmes
January 25, 2010, 08:05 PM
I would also like to add a stipulation to Niou's illusion. If Niou correctly predicts the opponent he will be facing then keep his current illusion (or even make it stronger). If he incorrectly predicts, cut the points further by 1/2 (I have a feeling that Sherlock may like this just to prove how badass he is at predictions lol)

Can we do that? Please? PLEASE?



-Illusion [Effect]:
When playing Singles, Niou can copy one Effect OR Aura from any chosen player. He also copies that players playstyle and dominant hand. This effect cannot be copied or negated.
Are you out of your mind? That would be the BIGGEST NERF in the history of the league, it would be insanely unfair to me.

Sai_the_Shaman
January 25, 2010, 08:09 PM
I knew you'd love that Sherlock, Given that you pretty much love mind raping people....

how about this?

Niou:
-Illusion [Effect]:
When playing Singles, Niou must make a prediction beforehand about who he will be playing. If his prediction is correct, he can copy one Effect OR Aura from any chosen player. He also copies that players play style and dominant hand. However, should his prediction be wrong, he can only copy his chosen effect at 50% potency. This effect cannot be copied or negated.

I figure this makes Niou a little bit weaker, but sherlock seems to want it to prove how much more badass he is. I don't see why he shouldn't have it.

Sherlock Holmes
January 25, 2010, 08:12 PM
I knew you'd love that Sherlock, Given that you pretty much love mind raping people....

how about this?

Niou:
-Illusion [Effect]:
When playing Singles, Niou must make a prediction beforehand about who he will be playing. If his prediction is correct, he can copy one Effect OR Aura from any chosen player. He also copies that players play style and dominant hand. However, should his prediction be wrong, he can only copy his chosen effect at 50% potency. This effect cannot be copied or negated.

I figure this makes Niou a little bit weaker, but sherlock seems to want it to prove how much more badass he is. I don't see why he shouldn't have it.

I do like it, but I want something to make the gamble worth it. Because first of all, you guys are nerfing Niou too much.

How about this?


-Illusion [Effect]:
When playing Singles, Niou must make a prediction beforehand about who he will be playing. If his prediction is correct, he can copy one Effect OR Aura from any chosen player and has all his stats boosted by 3 points each. He also copies that players play style and dominant hand. However, should his prediction be wrong, he can only copy his chosen effect at 50% potency, and all his stats go down 3 points each. This effect cannot be copied or negated.

Sai_the_Shaman
January 25, 2010, 08:14 PM
sounds fine to me. I'll leave the vote up to the rest.

Sherlock Holmes
January 25, 2010, 08:15 PM
Also, as for Wakato, I also vote for higher stakes:

-Change Over! [Feat]:
Wakato has to choose one player before the match, his playstyle and dominant hand change accordingly. Depending on whether the copied playstyle has an advantage/disadvantage against the opponent's playstyle the following bonus is applied:
-Advantage -> +3 to all stats
-Neutral -> +0
-Disadvantage -> -3to all stats
The order of advantages is:
-Serve&Volley advantage vs Defensive Baseliner
-Defensive Baseliner advantage vs Aggressive Baseliner
-Aggressive Baseliner advantage vs Serve&Volley
-All-rounder always counts as Neutral

-Buggy Whip Shot [Effect]:
Wakato's Spin is boosted by 2 points.

-Ken-
January 25, 2010, 08:47 PM
I think that the Atobe’s super attack style should be call King True Form and is an aura that is similar to Hoshi Hanabi that used to be in this thread, the trigger being that if the total is still higher than Atobe in the end.

As for Niou, it's good, but please check to make sure if Niou play Fuji and choose to copy Tezuka/Shira Niou would still lose, because that's the way it is.

Sai_the_Shaman
January 25, 2010, 09:01 PM
@Sherlock
heh, you shoudl try and trade for mizuki from kuwabara and just make an all prediction team.

I'd be fore turning saiki into a prediction ability lol (the way it should be!). need to think of some logistics for it though.
[hr]

I think that the Atobe’s super attack style should be call King True Form and is an aura that is similar to Hoshi Hanabi that used to be in this thread, the trigger being that if the total is still higher than Atobe in the end.

I don't think aura quite makes sense for that. Simply because it isn't an aura per se....I'm for keeping the aura's limited to just the official auras from the series...

For hoshi hanabi, I'm for making it an auto activate feature\effect that occurs if the opponent negates hecatonchieres. Something like, if negated, Hoshi Hanabi takes effect and increases Fuji's power by 10 or something.

Sherlock Holmes
January 25, 2010, 09:08 PM
@Sherlock
heh, you shoudl try and trade for mizuki from kuwabara and just make an all prediction team.

I'd be fore turning saiki into a prediction ability lol (the way it should be!). need to think of some logistics for it though.
<hr noshade size="1">


I don't think aura quite makes sense for that. Simply because it isn't an aura per se....I'm for keeping the aura's limited to just the official auras from the series...

For hoshi hanabi, I'm for making it an auto activate feature\effect that occurs if the opponent negates hecatonchieres. Something like, if negated, Hoshi Hanabi takes effect and increases Fuji's power by 10 or something.
I tried to, he just won't accept it >.>

HEY KUWABARA, KITE FOR MIZUKI! YOU ACCEPT?

-Ken-
January 25, 2010, 10:25 PM
The only reason why I say aura is because they activate last. Atobe don't seemed to go into that form of his unless he's really in the bind.

I really want Hoshi Hanabi to be in, the one that you used to made is perfect, Chaos.

Can I also suggest that Inui have some kind of ability when he's in single with Renji? It will be nice if we can found the way around the 50/50 chance of winning. In double, it won't really work, as shown in the National Final.

EDIT: I wonder more about the Muga. So far in this season, Echizen fought against Inui and Niou copying Sanada. In this case, can I use Sanada skill?

Also, if Echizen use Samurai Drive in double, do it check both player total= 20 or only each player? (Would make sense if it's both player, I got to admit, there's two half for two player)

KuwabaraTheMan
January 26, 2010, 02:48 AM
I think the new Wakato looks good to me. It seems in line with his abilities.


I tried to, he just won't accept it >.>

HEY KUWABARA, KITE FOR MIZUKI! YOU ACCEPT?

Nah, Mizuki is just too awesome. I'm holding on to him. (I'm honestly stunned no one who was picking before me took him. He's insanely useful)

Kaoz
January 26, 2010, 03:38 AM
I do like it, but I want something to make the gamble worth it. Because first of all, you guys are nerfing Niou too much.

How about this?

3 points is too much, seriously. I always have the feeling that Niou's stats remain the same despite Illusion. The thing that makes the most sense for me is to make him drop a few points when he makes a false prediction, as he needs more time for preperation. I really think he should be able to copy 100% at all times and only get a small drop when the prediction thing goes wrong, canon wise at least. Be aware that I will make several other techniques copyable.


Also, as for Wakato, I also vote for higher stakes:

Again, I think the boost/drop is way too high, also the boost should be greater than the drop, I think. Maybe +1.5/-1 to all stats.


The only reason why I say aura is because they activate last. Atobe don't seemed to go into that form of his unless he's really in the bind.

I really want Hoshi Hanabi to be in, the one that you used to made is perfect, Chaos.

Can I also suggest that Inui have some kind of ability when he's in single with Renji? It will be nice if we can found the way around the 50/50 chance of winning. In double, it won't really work, as shown in the National Final.

EDIT: I wonder more about the Muga. So far in this season, Echizen fought against Inui and Niou copying Sanada. In this case, can I use Sanada skill?

Also, if Echizen use Samurai Drive in double, do it check both player total= 20 or only each player? (Would make sense if it's both player, I got to admit, there's two half for two player)

First of all, I intend to implement Hoshi Hanabi as well as several other abillities we talked about on the last few pages.

As for Atobe, putting the word final in would satisfy this.

Inui/Renji: Eh, I don't think it works, they are on a different level altogether as shown in the Nationals (even though it was Doubles, Renji clearly bested Inui and we can't say, there would have been a comeback).

I think you can very well use the techniques Niou copied (Rin+Rai?), his Illsuion is perfect afterall.

As for Doubles, I think Echizen shouldn't be aable to use Effects/Auras in Doubles, he is just bad in that area.

-Ken-
January 26, 2010, 03:53 AM
Alright, Thanks for making it clear. Too bad, I really want to see the super rookie of east and west tag team match one day, but recent chapter kind of ruin my dream for me.

Also, the list will get update as the manga go on right, I mean as the high schooler level become more clear, or will they just be top 2-4 always?

Sherlock Holmes
January 26, 2010, 06:18 AM
Considering the insane amount of points I paid for Niou, if his stats don't change while I use Illusion, I'll feel rather ripped off.

Kaoz
January 26, 2010, 08:21 AM
Alright, Thanks for making it clear. Too bad, I really want to see the super rookie of east and west tag team match one day, but recent chapter kind of ruin my dream for me.

Also, the list will get update as the manga go on right, I mean as the high schooler level become more clear, or will they just be top 2-4 always?

Yes, it will be updated but at the speed the manga progresses, we'll have to wait a bit I suppose.


Considering the insane amount of points I paid for Niou, if his stats don't change while I use Illusion, I'll feel rather ripped off.

How about this: Niou stats drop when he makes a false prediction and if the prediction is true, the opponent's stats drop. It woud have a similiar effect but feels more manga like. I mean, his abilities don't change but the opponent is surprised, so their stats are lowered. I think it would be a good compromise, no?

javimgol
January 26, 2010, 10:06 AM
- I agree in Wakato +1.5/-1.5. Same goes to Yagyyu's Guess Who?
- We need to discuss more Atobe's Agressive Style boost
- We need to get a conclusion about Hoshi Hanabi

My version of Illusion

-Illusion [Effect]:
When playing Singles, Niou must make a prediction beforehand about who he will be playing.
If his prediction is correct, he can choose one player of the league,who can not exceed Niou's points by up to 20.All his stats are copied.Also, Niou can copy one Effect,Aura of the chosen player.
If his prediction is wrong, Niou can choose an effect of a player of the league and use it.If that Effect would increase/decrease the stats of any player, only 60% of its original effect are applied
This effect can not be copied

Absolutely great boost if he's right, not too many points (6 with Hadokyyu) if he's wrong
I love it: Niou will almost auto-win (47 points with Rai)VS non Big Four if he guess right. If not, he will even lose VS Kirihara.

Yeah, it isn't 100% manga-canonic, but as I said, Niou knows in the manga (except VS Yagyyu, that was unexpected,and that's why he lost) who is he going to face, and in our League, guessing is true hard

-Everybody here loves prediction. So, let's make Pinnacle of Great Wisdom a prediction, too
-Pinnacle of Wisdom [Final Aura]:
When playing Singles, the player must make a prediction beforehand about who he will be playing. If he's right, and the oponent opponent has added/removed points to the stats by Effects or Auras, the player adds/removes the same points +3

Kaoz
January 26, 2010, 10:55 AM
- I agree in Wakato +1.5/-1.5. Same goes to Yagyyu's Guess Who?
(1) - We need to discuss more Atobe's Agressive Style boost
(1) - We need to get a conclusion about Hoshi Hanabi

(2) My version of Illusion

-Illusion [Effect]:
When playing Singles, Niou must make a prediction beforehand about who he will be playing.
If his prediction is correct, he can choose one player of the league,who can not exceed Niou's points by up to 20.All his stats are copied.Also, Niou can copy one Effect,Aura of the chosen player.
If his prediction is wrong, Niou can choose an effect of a player of the league and use it.If that Effect would increase/decrease the stats of any player, only 60% of its original effect are applied
This effect can not be copied

Absolutely great boost if he's right, not too many points (6 with Hadokyyu) if he's wrong
I love it: Niou will almost auto-win (47 points with Rai)VS non Big Four if he guess right. If not, he will even lose VS Kirihara.

Yeah, it isn't 100% manga-canonic, but as I said, Niou knows in the manga (except VS Yagyyu, that was unexpected,and that's why he lost) who is he going to face, and in our League, guessing is true hard

(3) -Everybody here loves prediction. So, let's make Pinnacle of Great Wisdom a prediction, too
-Pinnacle of Wisdom [Final Aura]:
When playing Singles, the player must make a prediction beforehand about who he will be playing. If he's right, and the oponent opponent has added/removed points to the stats by Effects or Auras, the player adds/removes the same points +3

(1) I thought we had already agreed on those, no?

(2) No! His stats do not raise. If anything they drop when the prediction is wrong and the opponent's stats drop when the prediction is correct.
Maybe -8 (right) and -4 (wrong). Also he can copy all techniques that can be copied at 100%.

(3) I don't really understand this, The way it's worded the opponent receives a boost, no?

Sai_the_Shaman
January 26, 2010, 12:02 PM
For Saiki I think he means:

-Pinnacle of Wisdom [Final Aura]:
When playing Singles, the player must make a prediction beforehand about who he will be playing. If he's right, and the opponent has added/removed points to the stats by Effects or Auras, his effect/aura is negated and the player adds/removes the same points as the opponent was supposed to and then +3

As for Atobe's Super Attack Style, I quite like the one chaos made and I think it works quite nicely. Though, since he's my character I'll leave the voting up to you guys.

As for Niou, I'm fine witht he stats dropping idea. But make the stakes a little higher. If he gets his prediction right, then he drops his opponents stats by like 8-10 points and uses another effect at 100%. If he gets it wrong, he drops his own stats by about 4-5 points and can only copy at 50%

Bowser
January 26, 2010, 12:13 PM
You guys should just use Niou as an example in a sample battle. Its pointless arguing about it if you've never tested it.

Kaoz
January 26, 2010, 02:30 PM
For Saiki I think he means:

-Pinnacle of Wisdom [Final Aura]:
When playing Singles, the player must make a prediction beforehand about who he will be playing. If he's right, and the opponent has added/removed points to the stats by Effects or Auras, his effect/aura is negated and the player adds/removes the same points as the opponent was supposed to and then +3

As for Atobe's Super Attack Style, I quite like the one chaos made and I think it works quite nicely. Though, since he's my character I'll leave the voting up to you guys.

As for Niou, I'm fine witht he stats dropping idea. But make the stakes a little higher. If he gets his prediction right, then he drops his opponents stats by like 8-10 points and uses another effect at 100%. If he gets it wrong, he drops his own stats by about 4-5 points and can only copy at 50%

Well, just to make this clear, Saiki allows it's user to simulate the next point and let's him see the fewest number of rallies necessary to win that point. The thing is, Saiki can be used at full power against any opponent, so there is no prediction necessary (at least not in that way).

I think Niou should be able to always copy the effect/aura at 100%. The stat drop shows how effective it was, I think.

javimgol
January 26, 2010, 03:22 PM
For Saiki I think he means:

-Pinnacle of Wisdom [Final Aura]:
When playing Singles, the player must make a prediction beforehand about who he will be playing. If he's right, and the opponent has added/removed points to the stats by Effects or Auras, his effect/aura is negated and the player adds/removes the same points as the opponent was supposed to and then +3

As for Atobe's Super Attack Style, I quite like the one chaos made and I think it works quite nicely. Though, since he's my character I'll leave the voting up to you guys.

As for Niou, I'm fine witht he stats dropping idea. But make the stakes a little higher. If he gets his prediction right, then he drops his opponents stats by like 8-10 points and uses another effect at 100%. If he gets it wrong, he drops his own stats by about 4-5 points and can only copy at 50%
1.You're right Sai, that's what I was triying to explain.
2. About Niou: Fuji's stats didn´t drop. Fuji didn´t play worse. It was Niou who reach Tezuka's level with the exception of Zero Shiki Serve.With the Illusion I made, Niou reaches 90%Tezuka-Sanada-Atobe level, just like in the manga (he will get more copying them than Yuki or Ryoma, beacuse their effects are impossible to be copied)
3. I agree with Atobe's issue

Kaoz
January 26, 2010, 04:18 PM
What I'm saying is that it was merely an Illusion, nothing more. He just appared to be Tezuka and Shiraishi and used their techniques. Maybe Fuji didn't play worse but Niou definetly didn't get a stat boost. Perhaps it's more accurate to assume that he was on the same level as Fuji all the time but gave up the first games for his preperation, then when he used Illusion, he started to play with full power.

Sherlock Holmes
January 26, 2010, 06:32 PM
What I'm saying is that it was merely an Illusion, nothing more. He just appared to be Tezuka and Shiraishi and used their techniques. Maybe Fuji didn't play worse but Niou definetly didn't get a stat boost. Perhaps it's more accurate to assume that he was on the same level as Fuji all the time but gave up the first games for his preperation, then when he used Illusion, he started to play with full power.

If he could play on Fuji's level from the beginning, there would be no meaning in mind raping him.


-Illusion [Effect]:
When playing Singles, Niou must make a prediction beforehand about who he will be playing.
If his prediction is correct, he can choose one player of the league,who can not exceed Niou's points by up to 20.All his stats are copied.Also, Niou can copy one Effect,Aura of the chosen player.
If his prediction is wrong, Niou can choose an effect of a player of the league and use it.If that Effect would increase/decrease the stats of any player, only 60% of its original effect are applied
This effect can not be copied

I agree with this version. Know what? If Chaos isn't happy with it, let's make Niou a little more risky.



-Illusion [Effect]:
When playing Singles, Niou must make a prediction beforehand about who he will be playing.
If his prediction is correct, he can choose one player of the league,who can not exceed Niou's points by up to 20.All his stats are copied.Also, Niou can copy one Effect,Aura of the chosen player
If his prediction is wrong, this effect is negated.
If the prediction is corrected, then Niou's effects cannot be negated.

He gets it right: BAM he's god. He gets it wrong...Then even KITE and other could beat him. For 35 points sounds good.

ONLY useful in Singles, and even then, only useful when abusing mind raping skills. You'd have to be crazy(or me) to spend 35 points in what is only useful if you can read minds.

Kaoz
January 26, 2010, 06:45 PM
Maybe to give the Illusion a greater effect?

Anyways, he can copy (nearly) everything at full power. If he was prepared to copy Tezuka, it would have worked on anyone else just as well. At least, let's do the boost/drop thing for predictions, it's still better than the last version, I think.

javimgol
January 27, 2010, 03:00 PM
Sherlock's version is too risky.Let's assure for Niou a few points even if he doesn's predict well. If he would be so bad without predicting, Yagyyu would have won him 7-0.

We need to discuss more Pinnacle of Wisdom. I like the one we actually have, even if it's not very manga-like: 8 points it's a reasonable boost..But we could also make it more like a prediction. What do you think about my version/Sai translation?

Pinnacle of Wisdom [Final Aura]:
When playing Singles, the player must make a prediction beforehand about who he will be playing. If he's right, and the opponent has added/removed points to the stats by Effects or Auras, his effect/aura is negated and the player adds/removes the same points as the opponent was supposed to and then +3

-Ken-
January 27, 2010, 03:13 PM
I don't know, it's an aura, so I feel it should be better than that. This is too much hit/miss thing. What about if you choose 1 move from every player in the opponent team. Will that be too powerful?

Kaoz
January 27, 2010, 03:13 PM
As you might have noticed I hate it when the abilities are too different from the manga and I hate the Pinnacle because of that as well.

Nevertheless, your version doesn't display it well enough either, that's what I think at least. You see, you can use the Pinnacle regardless of the opponent, you don't have to predict whom you're playing against at all. The user only calculates which shots are necessary to win the next point and this is kinda hard to show in our system.
On the other hand, as Pinnacle of Hard Work became rather strong, I wouldn't mind making Pinnacle of Great Wisdom a bit more broken as well, maybe it could be Effect-canceling alongside a slight boost or something playstyle dependant.

-Ken-
January 27, 2010, 03:20 PM
Umm, that's why I think predicting the move that your opponent will be using would work, guess not.

On this, I think that Moujuu Aura need fix as well, the current version of pinnacle of great wisdom is actually perfect for it. It doesn't copy any effect.

Kaoz
January 27, 2010, 03:24 PM
I didn't see your post when I wrote mine, so you mean that the predicted move is negated when it comes up and a boost is applied?

You're right about Moujuu, I would remove the 20 points condition though and reduce the boost by a total of 2 points though.

-Ken-
January 27, 2010, 03:30 PM
Yeah, that sounds pretty good, I agree with the Moujuu.

And your understanding of pinnacle of great wisdom is right as well, I think it will be a pretty good version.

Kaoz
January 27, 2010, 03:45 PM
Implementing your idea, I present

Pinnacle of Great Wisdom Version 3

The player has to choose one ability from every player of the opposing team. If that ability is used against Chitose/Tezuka, it is negated and the opponent's highest stat drops by 8 points. If two or more stats tie as the highest stat, the dropping points are divided equally. (Singles only)
[hr]
Now then, how is this for Niou:

Niou Version 10 or so

Niou (8, 8, 8, 9, 33) 35
All-rounder

-Guess Who? [Effect]:
When playing Doubles, Niou can copy the Effects and Auras of his partner. This effect cannot be copied.

-Illusion [Effect]:
When playing Singles, Niou has to predict his opponent as well as a copyable ability.
If the prediction is correct, the copied ability is applied at 100% and the opponent's stats drop by 2 points each. If the prediction was wrong, the copied ability is applied at 50% and all of Niou's stats drop by 1.5 points.