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itachisamata
January 04, 2010, 07:50 PM
yes absolutely and with evidence, first of all, yesterday I watched the episode 52-53 for the 2nd time, the most important parts in this episode is when they brought rukia to exute her, after that, Gin appeared!
the most important thing is, what said rukia.
Rukia: "I always hated this man, slightly before i entered the gotei 13,
nii-sama became the captain of the 6th devision. Around that time
the man who became the captain of the third division, always started
to talk to nii-sama when i was with him to anyone else it probably just
looked like official talk between two captains.there wasn't much to the
conversation but i couldn't feel that way. i remember the first time
seeing him my whole body started to sweat, his fingertips ...his
mouth... the slight movement of his eyes all of it felt like the slithering tongue of a snake touching my throat even though he was talking
to nii-sama, i hated this man it felt like he slowly entered deep inside
me, like a disease, that is kind of fear he made me feel. i never had a
reason it's just that everything inside me resisted this man, that's
never changed even after talking to him several times and nothing is
different now.

After that, Gin kept his mental control over her.

well, many questions we can ask:

Brief: always talk to byakuya when she was with him , her whole body started to sweat,she felt like the slithering tongue of a snake touching her throat (so even byakuya did not pay attention):blink she felt like he entered deep inside her so if he realy did, certainly he know about the hogyoku!!!
we all know that after she stayed in the real world for too long, Aizen sought that the hogyoku is inside rukia. too slow compared to Gin, right?!
Gin knows about the hogyoku inside rukia before Aizen for so long!!! so, who manipulate who ?

look at this picture
http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/386/21/
toussen the bottom
Aizen the middle
and who is on the top of the bulding ?? :)

kweci
January 04, 2010, 08:06 PM
thought i would reply to this one before someone else was extra mean...
a) the hogyouku was put in rukia when she went to the real world via the gigai urahara supplied to her. the incidents she refers to in your quote happened before that. aizen is the one who had central 46 killed and rukia recalled back to SS. so, no, Gin didn't 'know' about rukia before aizen.
b. the description rukia gives is most probably a plot device by kubo (take the espada description by fraccions in the arrancar arc as an example). we were supposed to think gin was the big bad mastermind for the longest time. that's what made an uber badass like aizen coming along all the more surprising. also, one might argue it takes more strenght/brains to maintain the kind of charade aizen did as a captain than it does for someone to creep a person out like gin did...

cheers!

Gran Maestro
January 04, 2010, 08:13 PM
she felt like he entered deep inside her so if he realy did, certainly he know about the hogyoku!!!

This is figurative speech, I don't see how it's relevant to presence of hougyoku inside Rukia. It was a hint (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/Foreshadowing) about the evil nature of Gin.

Exodi
January 04, 2010, 08:30 PM
Slightly off-topic reply:

That scene is one of my favorites in the whole series. Her scream and Gin's evil glare brought all together so nicely~

:D

itachisamata
January 04, 2010, 09:15 PM
thought i would reply to this one before someone else was extra mean...
a) the hogyouku was put in rukia when she went to the real world via the gigai urahara supplied to her. the incidents she refers to in your quote happened before that. aizen is the one who had central 46 killed and rukia recalled back to SS. so, no, Gin didn't 'know' about rukia before aizen.
b. the description rukia gives is most probably a plot device by kubo (take the espada description by fraccions in the arrancar arc as an example). we were supposed to think gin was the big bad mastermind for the longest time. that's what made an uber badass like aizen coming along all the more surprising. also, one might argue it takes more strenght/brains to maintain the kind of charade aizen did as a captain than it does for someone to creep a person out like gin did...

cheers!
Aizen said : "urahara wanted to kill the hogyoku but he couldn't so he took the only method left to him. he put a barrier around the hougyoku and bury it with another soul to hide it at that time the place he choses to hide it was in rukia. and when aizen found out about this rukia had already disapeared somewhere in the real world.
urahara developed a spirit child that could not increase it's energy he used that to make a gigai that is impossible to lock on to and then left soul society, this gigai make the shinigami split it's spirit energy as a result the shinigami inside of that gigai will never recover it's spirit energy."
rukia gave a part from her shinigami power to ichigo after that she become weaker and weaker and couldn't get her spiritual energiy to normal witch is abnormal, and yes , the reason is that gigai given by urahara maybe after he left soul society.
so explain to me how coul she loses her spirit energy before urahara came and sai to her " ohh ,it seems like you have some difficulty should i lend you a gigai?" how she could posibly loses her spiritual energy before he even give her "the gigai"?




so my friend that means rukia had the hougyoku from the begining and there is a big posibility that she may gave him the power of hogyouku itself.
hint : ichigi hollows with horns :)
[hr]

This is figurative speech, I don't see how it's relevant to presence of hougyoku inside Rukia. It was a hint (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/Foreshadowing) about the evil nature of Gin.


we can't be certain because we don't know the ability of Gin yet !!!

vizardichigo
January 04, 2010, 09:37 PM
Aizen said : "urahara wanted to kill the hogyoku but he couldn't so he took the only method left to him. he put a barrier around the hougyoku and bury it with another soul to hide it at that time the place he choses to hide it was in rukia. and when aizen found out about this rukia had already disapeared somewhere in the real world.
urahara developed a spirit child that could not increase it's energy he used that to make a gigai that is impossible to lock on to and then left soul society, this gigai make the shinigami split it's spirit energy as a result the shinigami inside of that gigai will never recover it's spirit energy."
rukia gave a part from her shinigami power to ichigo after that she become weaker and weaker and couldn't get her spiritual energiy to normal witch is abnormal, and yes , the reason is that gigai given by urahara maybe after he left soul society.
so explain to me how coul she loses her spirit energy before urahara came and sai to her " ohh ,it seems like you have some difficulty should i lend you a gigai?" how she could posibly loses her spiritual energy before he even give her "the gigai"?




so my friend that means rukia had the hougyoku from the begining and there is a big posibility that she may gave him the power of hogyouku itself.
hint : ichigi hollows with horns :)
<hr noshade size="1">



we can't be certain because we don't know the ability of Gin yet !!!

No...She lost her powers because she gave them to Ichigo...It is not abnormal because she was on Earth...Not SS...There are not enough spiritual particles on Earth for her to recover...Also she was fighting hollows all this time exhausting the sparse amount of reiatsu that she did have...

Eternal_Breath
January 04, 2010, 10:18 PM
yes absolutely and with evidence, first of all, yesterday I watched the episode 52-53 for the 2nd time, the most important parts in this episode is when they brought rukia to exute her, after that, Gin appeared!
the most important thing is, what said rukia.
Rukia: "I always hated this man, slightly before i entered the gotei 13,
nii-sama became the captain of the 6th devision. Around that time
the man who became the captain of the third division, always started
to talk to nii-sama when i was with him to anyone else it probably just
looked like official talk between two captains.there wasn't much to the
conversation but i couldn't feel that way. i remember the first time
seeing him my whole body started to sweat, his fingertips ...his
mouth... the slight movement of his eyes all of it felt like the slithering tongue of a snake touching my throat even though he was talking
to nii-sama, i hated this man it felt like he slowly entered deep inside
me, like a disease, that is kind of fear he made me feel. i never had a
reason it's just that everything inside me resisted this man, that's
never changed even after talking to him several times and nothing is
different now.

After that, Gin kept his mental control over her.

well, many questions we can ask:

Brief: always talk to byakuya when she was with him , her whole body started to sweat,she felt like the slithering tongue of a snake touching her throat (so even byakuya did not pay attention):blink she felt like he entered deep inside her so if he realy did, certainly he know about the hogyoku!!!
we all know that after she stayed in the real world for too long, Aizen sought that the hogyoku is inside rukia. too slow compared to Gin, right?!
Gin knows about the hogyoku inside rukia before Aizen for so long!!! so, who manipulate who ?

look at this picture
http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/386/21/
toussen the bottom
Aizen the middle
and who is on the top of the bulding ?? :)
Okay I'm going to keep this as brief and simple as possible.

In regards to your first point it's Rukia talking about how she always thought Gin was creepy (Kubo has even stated he designed him to be such). When you are around someone like this it's not uncommon to feel unsettled by their presence. This is what that quote was referring to as she felt that way before she had the hogyoku (sp?) inside her being.

In regards to your point regarding the picture of Tosen, Aizen and Gin this is most likely just reflecting their personalities. Tosen was always the most headstrong and the first of the 3 to go into a fight (whether ordered or otherwise) while it shows Aizen presumably taking charge and giving orders so he doesn't have to dirty his own hands. As with the other two, Gin's role is also suitable; preferring to observe a situation from a distance and take advantage of any opportunity that arises.

While I share your distrust of Gin I have to say that besides speculation and Gin's mysterious absence in battle, Kubo has yet to give us any proof to him surpassing Aizen in strength and it will remain so until it's directly said to be otherwise.

daveak47
January 05, 2010, 01:09 AM
I don't know about who is stronger, but I have a very strong feeling that Gin is going to be the main bad guy in the end.

It is very hard to explain, but the way everything is turning out, I have a very strong hunch. Well we'll just have to wait and see.

scoobysvk
January 05, 2010, 03:42 AM
I dont beleve that Gin is the main bad guy but he is at least as strong as Yama.

Gran Maestro
January 05, 2010, 05:41 AM
we can't be certain because we don't know the ability of Gin yet !!!

What do you mean? Do you say Gin's bankai may have such an ability? Gin's shikai has direct physical attacks, I don't think his bankai will be any different and frankly I don't understand how this ability you mentioned works and why Rukia was the only one.


I dont beleve that Gin is the main bad guy but he is at least as strong as Yama.

So it's national joke day, huh? :p

itachisamata
January 05, 2010, 08:10 AM
No...She lost her powers because she gave them to Ichigo...It is not abnormal because she was on Earth...Not SS...There are not enough spiritual particles on Earth for her to recover...Also she was fighting hollows all this time exhausting the sparse amount of reiatsu that she did have...

second episode: rukia gave her power to ichigo and lost her shinigami power,because of that, she used a gigai dispensed for emergency use, shinigami who are extremely waekned enter these to wait for power to recover
but instead of recovering she started to become more like a humain! anyway aizen said that urahara put a barrier around the hougyoku and bury it with another soul to hide it at that time the place he choses to hide it was in rukia. so the hogyoku were inside her , her soul.

Pete4r
January 05, 2010, 08:22 AM
I think Gin maybe a Master and Aizen is strategist of Gin

sarutobi_sensei
January 07, 2010, 08:23 PM
What bugs me is that Gin started following Aizen and not the other way around.

But I like to think that Gin is the real badguy.

Underpowered
January 12, 2010, 06:24 AM
I believe so too. Gin is just such an unpredictable and contradictory (wakizashi made for ranged attacks?, always has his eyes closed yet his shikai relies so much on his aim?) character.
He's also about the only character that doesn't seem uneasy with Aizen at all.
I think he's gonna play a major role at least...may it be as big villain or as undercover good guy (Rangiku?).

ninjaman
January 12, 2010, 06:40 PM
Gin just like to see trouble so he follows aizen. People saying that he is at least strong as yama need to shut up -.- we have no proof.

itachisamata
January 14, 2010, 03:16 PM
Gin just like to see trouble so he follows aizen. People saying that he is at least strong as yama need to shut up -.- we have no proof.

if he is really stronger than aizen! yamaji is no longer ranked. and if you want a proof ? i just gave you a BIG ONE :p

Charred
January 19, 2010, 07:43 AM
Gin is as strong as hitsugay, aka he isnt any special.

Underpowered
January 19, 2010, 08:31 AM
Gin is as strong as hitsugay, aka he isnt any special.

Yeah, the manga clearly stated it. Gin fighting (or toying) with a bankai Hitsu und the high possibility of him having hollow powers makes it obvious that Gin = Hitsu.

Xerneas
January 19, 2010, 08:44 AM
Uh, Gin never fought Ban Kai Hitsugaya. But yes if he has Vizard powers now he should be much stronger than Hitsu. Still, I'm not sure how so many equate somebody being a lazy slimeball with them being stronger than the most terrifying force in this manga. The amount of undeserved hype this guy gets is obscene. And the hilarious part is that these same people are the ones who always cry about Hitsugaya fanboys.

Simply put, Gin being stronger than Aizen or Yama is nothing but a bad joke.

obamamania
January 19, 2010, 09:25 AM
Yeah, that was Hitsu shikai, but does anyone believe that for one second Gin intended to kill him. Gin played the part of chief agitator throughtout the entire arc, making everyone think that he was behind everything when he honestly hadn't done anything but prolong the perception that Aizen was gone.

And people still fail to follow Kubo logic. If Kubo wants Gin stronger than Yama and Aizen, then Gin will be that strong even if he previously appeared equal to someone way weaker. It almost become nonsensical to even speculate because power levels do not exist in a measurable way.

itachisamata
January 19, 2010, 01:59 PM
i agree with obamamania ... gin is the most mysterious charachter in the manga.
we know a lot about aizen,toussen and even urahara than gin !!!

Charred
January 19, 2010, 03:19 PM
- He never fought hitsugaya in bankai. It was shikai vs shikai.
- His face wasnt that from somebody who was just toying around.

vizardichigo
January 19, 2010, 03:47 PM
Cosidering what Shunsui said about Hitsugaya surpassing him in 100 yrs, i think that statement also applies to Gin as well...I think he may be atleast on Shunsui's level by now since i doubt he was as strong as Hitsu is 100 years ago...So i think he is as strong as Shunsui, but add hollow powers and maybe a resurrecion and i think he may be close to Yama's level...Just a theory so plz dont bite of my head about proof because i have none...I just suspect Shunsui's statement to be a bit of foreshadowing....

obamamania
January 19, 2010, 04:07 PM
Gin is sort of always in Shikai in a sense, because in a real fight vs. another shinigami, his shikai hasn't really been used as anything more than an extendable spear that then returns to normal. Sure, he could maybe use it like Renji's shikai where it swings around and cuts everything, but he's only done that as a cheap shot against Hiyori. Overall, I think he's truly capable of something sinister and terrifying, but we won't see it until we see Gin's true self. I won't believe for a second that he's just a servant of Aizen, someone as sadistic as him is going to end up as something more, whether he ends up betraying Aizen or not. Nobody would think that Aizen would be defeated before Gin, but obviously if that happens we'll know Gin is important just like how Yammi outlived all of the espada.

Charred
January 19, 2010, 04:29 PM
Nothing indicates him being any special at all. He has a melee type zankpaktou which have always been terribly weak. So his bankai most likely wont be anything special either.
Putting him on the level of shunsui is a joke, let alone comparing him to yamamoto. He's on par with hitsugaya, his hollowfication powers will put him vastly above this level. He is said to be a genius yes, yet this doesnt instantly makes him as strong as top notch captains like shunsui & yamamoto. Shunsui would eat him alive at any moment, yama jii could kill him before he released his shikai.

Travis
January 19, 2010, 05:18 PM
Yeah the whole Rukia and Gin thing in SS was just for writing purposes and to make Gin look like the evil guy that killed Aizen. I thought it was actually written pretty well on explaining how scared Rukia was of him.

I think Gin is probably stronger than Hitsugaya without hollow powers.

We don't really know how strong he was already in the pendulum arc since he beat the 3rd seat and Aizen was the VC and probably captain level at the time. He was said to be a genius.

And remember what Shunsui said? He said in a hundred years Hitsugaya would probably be stronger than him, because he's a genius. I think that also hints at Gin being very strong as well. Of course he wasn't a captain back then and perhaps didn't have bankai back then, but we don't know for sure how strong he was. I do believe Gin has the potential to be stronger than Shunsui.

Underpowered
January 19, 2010, 05:26 PM
Nothing indicates him being any special at all. He has a melee type zankpaktou which have always been terribly weak. So his bankai most likely wont be anything special either.
Putting him on the level of shunsui is a joke, let alone comparing him to yamamoto. He's on par with hitsugaya, his hollowfication powers will put him vastly above this level. He is said to be a genius yes, yet this doesnt instantly makes him as strong as top notch captains like shunsui & yamamoto. Shunsui would eat him alive at any moment, yama jii could kill him before he released his shikai.

It's always so funny how you say "he IS on par with hitsu, shunsui WOULD eat him alive, yama COULD kill him" as if it were written down facts.
We don't know much about him, but him being a genius and the way he treats Aizen (and gets treated by him) indicate that Gin isn't quite the cannon fodder.

Charred
January 19, 2010, 05:57 PM
It's always so funny how you say "he IS on par with hitsu, shunsui WOULD eat him alive, yama COULD kill him" as if it were written down facts.
We don't know much about him, but him being a genius and the way he treats Aizen (and gets treated by him) indicate that Gin isn't quite the cannon fodder.

From the info that we have, without any speculation, it is a fact that:

- gin is on par with hitsugaya
- hitsu is weaker than shunsui
- shunsui is weaker than yamamoto
- equation of the above equals in gin being weaker than shunsui & yama

Anything else is speculation, from both you and me.

Elite_user
January 19, 2010, 06:40 PM
the idea that gin is stronger than aizen is unlikely but it is an okay idea by it self

but the "evidence" presented in the first post is a joke
[hr]

From the info that we have, without any speculation, it is a fact that:

- gin is on par with hitsugaya
- hitsu is weaker than shunsui
- shunsui is weaker than yamamoto
- equation of the above equals in gin being weaker than shunsui & yama

Anything else is speculation, from both you and me.

nah gin is way stronger than hitsugaya

hitsugaya was using bankai and gin was barely using shinkai nor was he even bothering to attack, he just played defence for most of their battle

UnknownQuincy
January 19, 2010, 06:40 PM
Since it directly applies to the thread, I'll go out and say, under the full understanding that the manga battle is very different from the anime battle of Hitsu vs Gin, I have no inclination to think anything other that Gin was toying with Hitsu.

I don't think for a second that his Zanpakuto is guaranteed to be melee only, in fact he has proven to use far more functionally than that. He is devious and strong, able to take a seated position within 1 year of joining the academy. I dont think even Hitsu was that fast at gaining a seat, I think he was just younger when he entered so he is the youngest captain. I can't recall any mention of how fast he actually made it thru the academy, however.

Now, moving into a more on topic response, I think it's is not likely that Gin is directly looking to take Aizen down. However, the likelyhood of Aizen giving Gin hollow powers, and not himself(because he hasnt "perfected hollowfication"), Aizen getting killed by Ichi+SS+Vaizards, and then Gin bein ultimately "more powerful" than Aizen was, does not escape me. I don't see it as very, extremely, amazingly likely, but the possibility is there.

obamamania
January 19, 2010, 07:26 PM
Charred.....logical fallicies don't win arguements. Gin vs. Hitsu was 100% unmeasurable, and it's a bit ridiculous to think either one is stronger. How in the world does "on par" lead to you thinking they're equal when we have not seen Gin's bankai. His bankai MAY be more epic than Hitsu's, then how will your arguement hold up?

Gran Maestro
January 19, 2010, 07:42 PM
Charred.....logical fallicies don't win arguements. Gin vs. Hitsu was 100% unmeasurable, and it's a bit ridiculous to think either one is stronger. How in the world does "on par" lead to you thinking they're equal when we have not seen Gin's bankai. His bankai MAY be more epic than Hitsu's, then how will your arguement hold up?

But then any character with unknown bankai may be the strongest character in the manga. (For example, if the bankai is death note (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death_note)) IMO relative powers before bankai is a reliable hint about the relative powers with bankai. For example, if Byakuya's shikai is on par with Yoruichi's shikai, you can expect to see the same parity in bankai.

UnknownQuincy
January 19, 2010, 08:27 PM
With some of the more recent examples of Shikai and Bankai, I think that logic is holding less and less validity. A shikai like Shunsui's, or a Bankai like Soifon's, really REALLY throw those kind of examples out of whack. I would have tended to agree long ago, maybe even a few months back, but we've see some recent examples that don't follow that trend anymore, at all.

If I had to guess, I would say Gin is one of those characters whose Bankai may be excessively powerful, much like Shunsui's shikai or Shinjis bankai, literally taking the opponent into an entirely new reality. Or conversely, like Soifon, he will have a Bankai capable of wildly excessive amounts of area of effect destruction.

As Aizen's VC, an accepted genius and a master swordsman(remember him killing the third seat while unseated?), I think Gin has to much hype surrounding him to get some cheese-ball shikai-redone Bankai "Now Shinso shoots EVEN FARTHER !" kind of Bankai.

Gin's bankai has a high probability to be amazing.

obamamania
January 19, 2010, 09:24 PM
But then any character with unknown bankai may be the strongest character in the manga. (For example, if the bankai is death note (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death_note)) IMO relative powers before bankai is a reliable hint about the relative powers with bankai. For example, if Byakuya's shikai is on par with Yoruichi's shikai, you can expect to see the same parity in bankai.

No. Come on, you guys are putting WAY too much faith into the idea that Kubo will someone follow your own personal logic of how this all works. Kubo reserves releases and bankais until he wants that character to shine or perhaps fail. But nothing is guaranteed until it happens.

Page356
January 19, 2010, 09:54 PM
I don't think Gin is as powerful as Aizen but he has to be pretty friggin powerful. I don't want to state too much that's already been said but I believe there is enough evidence from the turn back the pendolum arc and the fact that he is the currently known main antagonists right hand man to know that his power far exceeds Hitsu's. As a matter of fact don't get me started on how unamazing Hitsu is. Yeah I like him don't get me wrong, but I like the Houston Texans too.

At any rate we don't even know what Gin's Shikai and Bankai are. I know everyone thinks that his sword grows but is that really it? ANY shigami or arracar with control over their reajitsu can control the length of their sword, and I'm not completely certain but doesn't his realease word mean god or god sword or something like that? It sounds epic so maybe it really allows him to increase his reajitsu or some other unseen but highly useful effect. Yeah it probably just makes his sword grow but I'm sure none of you can say with 100% confidence that you know that for sure.

If I had to guess, and this is purely my speculation, I would say his swordplay and footwork may be nearly has high as Aizen's, afterall Aizen said he cannot improve any further so there must be a limit and Gin has had a long time to play catch up. His reajitsu probably isn't near as high yet and he probably knows very little kido. I would say he's about around or maybe a little more powerful than Shunsui and Utitake. That's just a guess based on the whole Gin being as powerful as Hitsu a 100 years ago theory.

The reason I don't think Gin would be the main bad guy is I don't think Gin was the boss 100 years ago so he wouldn't be the boss now. If he's not the boss it's because he can't be the boss. He seems lazy enough that if he had a choice he would do nothing and maybe date that one chick with the big tits, so he either feels compelled to follow Aizen for some reason or he's too scared. Maybe big tits' safety is being held against him or something.

Boagrious
May 19, 2010, 10:23 PM
I've always thought this was a high possibility. Still think it could happen. Gin is the one closest to Aizen, and the one that has always been chill whenever Aizen has done something epic. Like the Pendulum arc, Gin was a kid and he was kicking people's ass. Now he is all grown and is more reserved, How the hell a kid that is a coldblooded killer turns into a patient and non-violent dude?! I think people underestimate him and really don't pay attention at him the way it should happen. Gin has finally unveiled his Bankai, and it's constantly doing something different, now that's epic and badass. He is not worried about Aizen, he is worried that Aizen inserted the Hyogoku to himself in secret. Now why would that be? It opens the possibility that Gin is actually stronger than Aizen, and was deceived. So he is now watching and learning about the situation, just like Ichigo is. Aizen is a test subject right now... He thinks he has mastered it, but he still gets hurt.