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Ero-Sanji
January 07, 2010, 04:13 PM
I thought it was appropriate to make a thread about these people for future discussions. If someone want to write something down right know (like who's the strongest or like if Gildartz is a member etc...) feel free to do it and Have fun! c(:

List of current members:

1. Makarov - Master of Fairy tail.
2. Jura Nekis - Strongest magician in the guild Lamia Scale.

Former members:
(Members that has either died or gotten dismissed)

1. Jose porla - Master of the former guild Phantom Lord
2. Gérard - Former council member.

Members by Theory:

1. The master of Lamia Scale - Since Jura isn't the master of Lamia scale the actuall master might be even stronger than him. Resulting in him being a Holy mage, though he might not be as noble or fit as Jura to have that possession.
2. Gildartz - Given his recent power level his obviously above members like Jura and Gérard and through his type of missions he seems to be a holy mage without doubt.

(If someone is missing, tell me.)

As a little Ice breaker who do you think will be the next person to get the rank as a holy mage? And the second seat will go to?

A lot of you might think it's Erza but I don't, well she might get the second one the one Gérard/sieglein left. But I think it will be Luxus for some odd reason. I'm sure he'll do something heroic and then not only get the honor to be the next holy mage but also the opportunity to come back.

Solfy
January 07, 2010, 07:03 PM
Huh, there's no indication of Gildartz being stronger than Gerard. I'd classify evil Gerard as the second most powerful character we've seen so far after Makarov.

He was a complete powerhouse, and would have probably able to beat Dragon Force Natsu with Abyss Break if he hadn't been damaged by Erza's attack when his power was still in Sieglein.

Jura, sure. Probably Jose as well.

Ero-Sanji
January 08, 2010, 08:29 AM
Huh, there's no indication of Gildartz being stronger than Gerard. I'd classify evil Gerard as the second most powerful character we've seen so far after Makarov.

He was a complete powerhouse, and would have probably able to beat Dragon Force Natsu with Abyss Break if he hadn't been damaged by Erza's attack when his power was still in Sieglein.

Jura, sure. Probably Jose as well.

Good review!
Rember it's a theory!

Let's put it this way:
Natsu who ate of aetherion managed to damage Gérard pretty badly! Even though the results could have been a win for Gérard if the Abyss break had connected he still got badly hurt.

Now Rebuke flame Natsu fought evenly with Zero and as we saw Rebuke flame Natsu was much much stronger than Aetherion Natsu. I think he was so strong he could've defeating Gérard with the flame of rebuke, no doubt. I also got the feeling that Gérard was fairly weaker than Zero.

Let us also not forget that a very weakened and exhausted Erza managed to over power a Gérard(without sieglein). That alone says a lot. Now you might say well what about a 100% Gérard? I do not know what would'va happened first of all Erza was nearly beaten when she faced Gérard and second she had the worst handicap of all, Love!

So imo Erza isn't that far behind Gérard in terms of power which isn't that crazy since she is a holy mage candidate. Both Luxus and Mistgun has shown power beyond even Erza so they too aren't that far behind Gérard they could even be at the same level. Gildartz is the strongest mage in Fairy tail Mistgun said it Luxus didn't disagree and that too me says it all.

A lot of all the S-class level missions are taken as a group with at least one S-class mage. Gildartz made a 100 years alone!(probably :p) And also let's not forget that he is at the same level as makarov.

Solfy
January 08, 2010, 10:06 AM
I didn't think of Aetherion Natsu as weaker than Golden Flame Natsu strangely enough.

Zero seemed powerful, but we have no data on him versus Gerard other than being owned quicker by Natsu. I mean, Natsu sucessfully overpowered Zero's ultimate attack, while Gerard's wasn't used.

Of course Erza would beat Gerard. It was all part of his plan, he needed her. And all his energy was in Sieglein.

Let us think; if Gerard managed to be a council member and an holy mage, it was because of Seiglein right. That says wonders about the amount of power which was contained in the said Sieglein.

Anyway, there's no indication of Gildartz being stronger than Makarov. Luxus constantly avoids referring to Makarov when he's comparing himself to other powerful mages in FT. The "most powerful mage of Fairy Tail" title certainly excludes Makarov.

Yet, he's definately imo the strongest character we've seen so far.

Razh
January 08, 2010, 11:12 AM
I would imagine Makarov and Gildartz are around the same level. One of them is more responsible and likes to keep things in order (more or less (http://www.onemanga.com/Fairy_Tail/2/24/)) and the other has more of an adventurous spirit, always goes on missions and never settles down for too long.

I'd say that Gildartz is almost certainly one of holy mages if I didn't think that the guy is too wild for something like that. We've seen how the responsible elder of the Fairy Tail (http://www.onemanga.com/Fairy_Tail/2/25/) acts. What can we expect from the vagrant one? Total disregard of the authority and rules? Lol, Luxus didn't even think that Gildartz will come back.

Ero-Sanji
January 08, 2010, 11:42 AM
Of course Erza would beat Gerard. It was all part of his plan, he needed her. And all his energy was in Sieglein.

Anyway, there's no indication of Gildartz being stronger than Makarov. Luxus constantly avoids referring to Makarov when he's comparing himself to other powerful mages in FT. The "most powerful mage of Fairy Tail" title certainly excludes Makarov.

Yet, he's definately imo the strongest character we've seen so far.

Makarov is with out doubt the strongest character we've seen and their is no one that has even stated something else what I said is that Gildartz is in the same level. You yourself recently said that Erza would beat Gérard well Erza is the weakest of the S-class mages of Fairy tail even getting knocked out by Mistguns skills.

I'm sure someone (forgive me for not remembering) mentioned that Gildartz is on the same level as Makarov that necessarily doesn't make him stronger.

Solfy
January 08, 2010, 12:30 PM
No, what I'm saying is that it's logical that Erza was able to beat Gerard when he didn't have his power back already. I'm just pointing out the fact that her overpowering Gerard was completely orchestred by Gerard. There's no way she'd come close to his power when he's at 100%.

Ero-Sanji
January 08, 2010, 01:11 PM
You think he did?

I already stated that she was worn out to the max and fighting with her last powers he nearly killed her yet she still managed to over power him. I'm sure full power Gérard is much stronger than Erza but the thought that he lost with purpose I don't know... I mean he threw her out of the building!

Anyway Gérard is strong, very strong but the idea that he is second to only makarov right now is a little far fetched I'm even ready too say that Jose might be even stronger...

Solfy
January 08, 2010, 01:23 PM
Well, we don't know, it's just a matter of subjectivity as of now.

On the Erza vs Gerard fight however, Erza was Gerard's sacrifice. He didn't want to kill her, he needed her to perform the ceremony.

Razh
January 08, 2010, 01:27 PM
A little too much off the main road? Gerard vs. Erza doesn't really have THAT much to do with the thread purpose.

Solfy
January 08, 2010, 02:55 PM
Yeah, let's get back on the thread anyway.

Razh
January 08, 2010, 03:58 PM
I'm curious, what about the other mages of the council? Aren't the geezers supposed to be possible members too?

I have kinda been waiting for some event that will require all of holy mages to unite. They should at least have a purpose like that as a group.

I'm expecting Gildartz will bring info of some new evil shit going on. Maybe something he stumbled upon during his quest.

Krono
January 08, 2010, 05:28 PM
I'm curious, what about the other mages of the council? Aren't the geezers supposed to be possible members too?

Yeah, the council members are potential members, as powerful magic seems to be one of the requirements for a council seat.


I have kinda been waiting for some event that will require all of holy mages to unite. They should at least have a purpose like that as a group.

My personal theory is that the original ten holy mages were the original ten council members as well.

That the council was set up as part of the effort to bring about peace and order after the wars of the time of Zeref and Nirvana. Naturally they pick the ten strongest guys they can find that are willing to take the position (seeing as "authority" and "can kick your ass" often go hand in hand.)

As time past, members retired from the council, but the title of "Holy Mage" (or Wizard Saint, whichever translation you prefer) stuck with them went they went. Helped by the fact that they still helped out, or were prominent in their own right, they just weren't on the council anymore. Then eventually by the time they died, the concept of "Ten Holy Mages" was so ingrained in peoples minds that the council felt compelled to appoint a replacement.

MechR
January 09, 2010, 01:57 AM
On the Erza vs Gerard fight however, Erza was Gerard's sacrifice. He didn't want to kill her, he needed her to perform the ceremony.... Until she tried shielding Natsu with her body; then he said it made no difference after all (http://www.onemanga.com/Fairy_Tail/97/10/), even though the recipe still technically called for it. That really made no sense :darn

Is Urtear a Holy Mage? In Erza's funeral dream, the Council said "one of the two newly-opened seats" (http://www.onemanga.com/Fairy_Tail/100/16/) after the ToP incident would be granted to Erza, and she's declared a Holy Mage on the next page. Now, it's possible the "open seats" only referred to the Council, and they were making her a Councilmember and a Holy Mage postmortem, but having a Council seat permanently occupied by a dead person would seem to crimp their daily functions.

Solfy
January 09, 2010, 07:14 AM
... Until she tried shielding Natsu with her body; then he said it made no difference after all (http://www.onemanga.com/Fairy_Tail/97/10/), even though the recipe still technically called for it. That really made no sense :darn

That was when Gerard had his powers back, I was talking about Erza vs "weak" Gerard.

Anyway, back to the thread, I don't know if Urtear's an holy mage. I remember Seiglein/Gerard talking with her about Ur, and saying that if she was alive, she'd certainly be one of the Ten Holy Great mages. Then he's like just showing his Holy Mage pendant.

Why would he show the freaking pendant if Urtear already had it ?

Ero-Sanji
January 09, 2010, 09:53 AM
Is Urtear a Holy Mage? In Erza's funeral dream, the Council said "one of the two newly-opened seats" (http://www.onemanga.com/Fairy_Tail/100/16/) after the ToP incident would be granted to Erza, and she's declared a Holy Mage on the next page. Now, it's possible the "open seats" only referred to the Council, and they were making her a Councilmember and a Holy Mage postmortem, but having a Council seat permanently occupied by a dead person would seem to crimp their daily functions.

No Urtear is not a Holy mage. They were referring to both Gérard and Jose, this was like a proof that Jose lost his title as well.

Razh
January 09, 2010, 10:30 AM
From the way it's written, two empty seats refer to Gerard and Urtear. Holy mage title was additionally added and has nothing to do with empty seats.

Ero-Sanji
January 09, 2010, 10:48 AM
From the way it's written, two empty seats refer to Gerard and Urtear. Holy mage title was additionally added and has nothing to do with empty seats.

Is that what you read?

"The magic council has voted unanimously. One of the two newly-opened seats... Shall be eternally granted to this woman. Erza Scarlet shall henceforth be counted amongst the ten great holy mages."

Think about it of all the mages in the continent they chose Erza to be a council member? It's more likely they talked about the Holy mage title since she has already been said to be as powerful as them and that she sacrificed her life for the world. If she achieved a council member seat it would cripple the system as someone said before me. This also explains that Jose lost his title.

Ultimaweapon
January 09, 2010, 10:49 AM
Urtear may not be a holy mage, but surely its magic level can be considered a holy mage, after all... Urtear who manipulated the holy mage Gerard.

Razh
January 09, 2010, 11:46 AM
Is that what you read?

"The magic council has voted unanimously. One of the two newly-opened seats... Shall be eternally granted to this woman. Erza Scarlet shall henceforth be counted amongst the ten great holy mages."

Think about it of all the mages in the continent they chose Erza to be a council member? It's more likely they talked about the Holy mage title since she has already been said to be as powerful as them and that she sacrificed her life for the world. If she achieved a council member seat it would cripple the system as someone said before me. This also explains that Jose lost his title.

I don't see how Erza's honorary, postmortem seat would disrupt anything. That way, Erza could also cripple the Holy Mages institution since there could only be nine of them. What's the use of one dead member? Also, the word henceforth is not a definite proof. It could go both ways.

Someone should check the raw and translate it from word to word. Problem is, it's not really that important. It doesn't impact the story. And Erza was proclaimed not for he strength but for the sacrifice she made to save everyone.

It's puzzling though. Originally, I thought that mages who enter the council are Holy Mages by default. How the hell did Urtear become a council member? That council sure is sloppy. Appointing double agents and discussing with mental projections. Some mages they are. Actually, a dead person wouldn't fit that bad into the bunch.

Solfy
January 09, 2010, 12:18 PM
Urtear may not be a holy mage, but surely its magic level can be considered a holy mage, after all... Urtear who manipulated the holy mage Gerard.

I agree with you, Urtear definately got an Holy Mage's kind of power.

However, her manipulation had nothing to do with power. It had more to do with intelligence and cunning skills. Urtear exactly knew how to manipulate Gerard from the beginning to the end, and Gerard was seen acting on his own will. That is to say, he wasn't controlled by some really powerful spell or something.

Ero-Sanji
January 09, 2010, 01:15 PM
I don't see how Erza's honorary, postmortem seat would disrupt anything. That way, Erza could also cripple the Holy Mages institution since there could only be nine of them. What's the use of one dead member?

Let me explain, Councils often got odd numbers for a reason. That way when they vote it will always lead to something be it a bad thing or not.

It would not be the same if she was appointed a Holy mage since they are not a team of some sort or something like that. It's just titles the ten strongest(not necessarily) and most heroic mages receive. A title granted the people who has done the most for the continent. Think about it Erza "saved" the world from the darkest most feared wizard of them all. It's obvious they meant the Holy mages!


Also, the word henceforth is not a definite proof. It could go both ways.

Henceforth = from this time forth; from now on.

If it is used in the way you are suggesting that would mean that being a council member automatically makes you a Holy mage which is already proven wrong. Makarov and Jose were both Holy mages at the same time there were 9 council members. Now, if it works in the way your hinting it would lead into 11 Holy mages(2+9=11). So, no. I will have to disagree with you on that.

Razh
January 09, 2010, 02:41 PM
Let me explain, Councils often got odd numbers for a reason. That way when they vote it will always lead to something be it a bad thing or not.

It would not be the same if she was appointed a Holy mage since they are not a team of some sort or something like that. It's just titles the ten strongest(not necessarily) and most heroic mages receive. A title granted the people who has done the most for the continent. Think about it Erza "saved" the world from the darkest most feared wizard of them all. It's obvious they meant the Holy mages!

It's not like we know anything about Holy Mages beside there is ten of them and that they are really strong. We don't know if they have a purpose or not, but the fact that Jose is not one any more proves that they are some kind of guardians of peace and it's possible that they unite when there is a serious danger to the world.
We don't know if they are supposed to work as a team in some situations or not. The fact that council members appoint the title and that evil mages can't be Holy Mages could point that they are some kind of a special organization.



Henceforth = from this time forth; from now on.

If it is used in the way you are suggesting that would mean that being a council member automatically makes you a Holy mage which is already proven wrong. Makarov and Jose were both Holy mages at the same time there were 9 council members. Now, if it works in the way your hinting it would lead into 11 Holy mages(2+9=11). So, no. I will have to disagree with you on that.

I know perfectly what "henceforth" means, thank you very much, and I kinda feel insulted by the fact that you had the need to "clarify" it to me.
I was saying that that sentence doesn't have to be in conjecture with the previous sentence. It could also mean that Erza was named a Holy Mage in addition to being a council member,

Also, I don't understand what you're talking about when you're speaking about 11 Holy Mages? If Erza is one of the Holy Mages and there can be only 10, then there would be only 9 living ones. I was saying that Erza is supposed to be an honorary Holy Mage and there would still be 10 living ones, since they don't have use for dead mages. I suppose there are other Holy Mages who died and other mages took their place. Erza could be an honorary member of the Council in the same way.

Anyway, it's not that I really care about this and it's not like I'm completely convinced that Erza became a Council member. I'm just saying it's not as clear as you say it is.

Ero-Sanji
January 09, 2010, 03:13 PM
I know perfectly what "henceforth" means, thank you very much, and I kinda feel insulted by the fact that you had the need to "clarify" it to me.
I was saying that that sentence doesn't have to be in conjecture with the previous sentence. It could also mean that Erza was named a Holy Mage in addition to being a council member,

Also, I don't understand what you're talking about when you're speaking about 11 Holy Mages? If Erza is one of the Holy Mages and there can be only 10, then there would be only 9 living ones. I was saying that Erza is supposed to be an honorary Holy Mage and there would still be 10 living ones, since they don't have use for dead mages. I suppose there are other Holy Mages who died and other mages took their place. Erza could be an honorary member of the Council in the same way.

Anyway, it's not that I really care about this and it's not like I'm completely convinced that Erza became a Council member. I'm just saying it's not as clear as you say it is.

I'm really sorry if I insulted you but you clearly misunderstood what I was trying to say.

What you were saying is that Erza became a Holy mage because of here council member seat which would indicate that all Council members are Holy mages. Now I know this wasn't necessarily what you meant but this is how I read it and I could have been wrong my mistake. Anyway if it were so that all the council members were Holy mages that would indicate that there are 9 + 2(Makarov and Jose's seats) totally which would go against what have been said.

Let's leave that subject. I'm certain they meant the Holy mage seat since this sentence: "Both Jose's and Gérard's titles and privileges was withdrawn by the council", sounds more likely than this: "Urtear and Gérard were both Holy mages and council members who got fired".

Why? Well, I think it's more likely that Jose lost his title with Gérard than Gérard lost it with Urtear. Otherwise it would mean that Jose was forgiven. Not a chance!

The only thing that says for the Idea that she became both is that they said the two newly-opened seats. Think about it Jose was a respected man and his crime wasn't as vile as Gérard so of course it took time to vote etc.

The last thing is that Erza has always been referred as being at the Holy mage power level. The council member seat are more likely to be suited for cunning members I'm sure there are a looong list of people suited for that seat than her.

Razh
January 09, 2010, 03:29 PM
But that's what confusing about the matter. Since Erza is already dead than it doesn't matter whether the seats are opened or not. She won't occupy the seat if she's dead.
The "seats" are also confusing. It points more to Council than to Holy Mages. If it doesn't than it means that Holy Mages also have some function, otherwise they wouldn't be "seated".

Krono
January 09, 2010, 05:21 PM
1) There are ten council members. Chapter 90 had mention that the council president was absent due to illness and as such responsibility fell to the remaining nine members.

2) The word used in japanese to descript what there were two of open is:

席【せき】
(n) (1) seat; (2) location (of a gathering, etc.); place; (3) position; post; (P)

So don't read too much into the word "seat" being used as it could have just as easily been translated "position".

3) When you permanently grant a position to a dead person, usually what you're doing is forever leaving it empty in their honor because they "hold" it. Permanently leaving a seat on the council empty would change how that part of the government worked. Permanently leaving one of the Ten Holy Mage positions open wouldn't mean much as in Jura's words "The Holy Mages are merely a position granted by the Council."

Razh
January 09, 2010, 05:35 PM
So don't read too much into the word "seat" being used as it could have just as easily been translated "position".

3) When you permanently grant a position to a dead person, usually what you're doing is forever leaving it empty in their honor because they "hold" it. Permanently leaving a seat on the council empty would change how that part of the government worked. Permanently leaving one of the Ten Holy Mage positions open wouldn't mean much as in Jura's words "The Holy Mages are merely a position granted by the Council."

Seat, postition... It's the same thing.
The word "usually" is hardly definitive. It doesn't have to mean that appointing a dead person as a Council member postmortem would leave that spot empty forever. Erza could just as well be recorded as being an honorary Council member for what she did. Meaning she helped preserve peace and order just as any of them. It's called recognition.

Jura is a modest person as we've seen. It's so like him to say that Holy Mages are "merely" a position granted by the Council. If it's a mere position which doesn't require anything from a Holy Mage then why does the Council need to grant it? What would be the use of naming Erza a Holy Mage only if Holy Mages don't do anything to preserve peace?

Notice that I don't really give a crap whether Erza was really appointed as a Council member. I'd just like to point that Holy Mages have a purpose. It's not just an honorary title. They don't just give that title to anyone.

Ero-Sanji
January 09, 2010, 05:52 PM
Jura is a modest person as we've seen. It's so like him to say that Holy Mages are "merely" a position granted by the Council. If it's a mere position which doesn't require anything from a Holy Mage then why does the Council need to grant it? What would be the use of naming Erza a Holy Mage only if Holy Mages don't do anything to preserve peace?

Notice that I don't really give a crap whether Erza was really appointed as a Council member. I'd just like to point that Holy Mages have a purpose. It's not just an honorary title. They don't just give that title to anyone.

Okey, now I see what your hinting at but I still do not agree. Makarov is likely to have been an active mage during his youth but now, not so much the dude is old. The Holy mage title is a title that indicates that you have done something good not that you're supposed do something or maintain your work(of course people will look to you for help under crises but I don't think this is the main Idea behind the titles). That's why Ur was a candidate since she sacrificed her life to defeat the undefeated Deliora this is the same reason why Erza would have recieved hers. The only difference is that the "seats" where opened up for Erza to achieve which wasn't the case with Ur.

The Council needs to grant it too people as a lighting guidance to the citizens of the continent the same way we have war heroes and national heroes etc. What Erza "did" was a major thing and it would be perfect to grant her the title so that the people of the continent remembered her name, and her good work.

Razh
January 09, 2010, 06:23 PM
Yeah, but I still think there is a certain responsibility that comes with the title. I don't think the title comes only due to merit for past accomplishments.
Makarov is old but his influence goes far beyond his magical ability. He has an entire guild under him.

I think the existence of Holy Mages is served to counter the evil guilds' efforts. Or any evil forces for that matter. They are appointed by Council in order to work in the best interests of everyone
Two of the four guilds that allied to stop Oracion Seis had a Holy Mage as a member. It could be a coincidence but I don't think it is.

Kravmaga
January 10, 2010, 02:40 PM
Sounds like the whole shindig's pretty much figured out until you think of master jose.
That guy was ruthless, petty and totally full of himself. He went as far as attacking another guild to finish his quest... How in the world did they figure he would deserve the title except by his great power?

Razh
January 10, 2010, 03:13 PM
I would imagine there are quite a few of eccentric mages among the strong ones. Jose does seem ruthless but there is no mention about any previous transgressions from his side. He just seemed to flip out because Makarov's guild was on the way to become more famous and powerful than his own. Kind of a stretch really.

Putting that aside, he and his guild probably did a lot of good too. Phantom Lord wasn't really an evil guild, even though it seemed that way at the beginning.