Are the First two Hokage's overrated?

[Delbi]

Ok, so I've long had this feeling that the the Senju brothers were overrated by fans, depsite evidence showing them to be inferior to other shinobi.

So, we have Hirashima Senju, leader of the Senju clan, rival to Uchiha Madara, and the First Hokage of Konoha.

Then we have Tobirama Senju, Second Hokage of Konoha.

Hirashima's abilites are as follows:

He possess the Moukton Kekkai Genkai, which allows him to create trees which can bind, pierce, smash, etc. He can literally create forests, as most of the tree's in Konoha were created by him. This technique is a dandy, but for what it's worth, its rather slow, and in Yamato's case at least, is very weak against lightning. (Given it's half of it's make-up is Earth, this makes sense).

Hirashima also seems to be profficient in Genjutsu, as shown when he fought Sarturobi.

His most powerful feat, is his ability to control all 9 of the Biju. This can't be overlooked as its simply fucking awesome haha.

Tobirama, is for what its worth, not his brother. His one amazing feat that he is known for is his master of the Suiton element. He has the ability to create a suiton that usually takes 27 handseals, with 1 or 2. He can also create water out of thin air.

Aside from this, both brothers were said to be exceptional fighters. (What good shinobi's aren't though)

I figure this is a good time to say this before I start talking about why I think they are overrated. Sarturobi Hiruzen, was stated to be the Strongest Hokage ever. It's a fact people, argue it all you want, but he's superior to both of the Senju brothers. In fact, when he was past his prime, he managed to defeat them both in comabt. (And please, they were as powerful as ever, nothing points to them being weaker than they were supposed to be when Orochimaru summoned them.) This alone shows me that they aren't nearly as powerful as orginally thought, IMO anyway.

Also, the Databook explains that they both died young. We have seen thus far only 3 shinobi with diseases, Gekko, Itachi, and Kimimaro. The chances that both of these brothers had diseases then, is slim to none if you ask me, especially since it was never mentioned. Logic would tell us then, they were both killed in battle by superior shinobi.

Now before I pick on Hirashima, because for what it's worth, he is actually talented, I'm going to shit on Tobirama.

Tobirama's claim to fame is that he's such a good Suiton user. Wow, guess what, Kakashi, Kisame, and Darui, have all shown they can do exactly what Tobirama can do with said element. And in Kisame's case, he can outdo Tobirama in just about every sense with said element. Darui and Kakashi both seem to have a lightning affinity, and can use Suiton to a degree, just as good as Tobirama did. His one advantage was cutting down the handseals to preform an A rank Suiton, but both Kakashi and Darui are seen using a suiton with just a few or one handseals. (This is hard to tell, because Kishi doesn't normally spend time on handseals anymore.)

In any event, his abilities don't have the same wow factor as many shinobi nowadays. And shinobi of the manga today, are much more versatile than he was, for example, look at Kakashi.

I think he was BY FAR, the weakest of all the Hokages there have ever been, and that includes Kakashi seeing as he is the new Hokage.

Now Hirashima. For what it's worth, this guy was a beast. But just because he defeated Madara in a fight we know nothing about, doesn't mean he's now somehow stronger than everyone.

His ability to control tailed beasts is astonishing, but should we really caluclate that into his actual strength? If he has no tailed beasts around to control, his overall jutsu arsenal seems rather weak, no?

As for his fight against Madara, it would seem he went up against large odds and won, but we don't know anything about said fight, so how are we truly able to judge? We also don't know anything about Madara's old abilities, which could be play a big factor into what happened. We also don't know who could control the Kyuubi better, Hirashima or Madara. Madara seemed to bring it to the fight, but that doesn't mean Hirashima didn't end up controlling it. And for what its worth, Madara is still alvie and kicking, so Hirahsima might have won the fight, but he failed to kill Madara.

If we knew nothing about Hidan and Shika's fight, but we knew about their abilities, and we saw the Shika won, wouldn't that turn some heads? How did he defeat an opponent superior to him in nearly every way? As we know, Shika planned ahead and had the battle field ready. Similar circumstances could have helped Hirashima defeat Madara.

In any event, I believe they are highly overrated. Hirashima was good, but not the best like many believe, and Tobirama seems like he was trash compared to the other Hokages.

Discuss, and keep it civil no flame wars please.

[juUnior]

I don't think that both of them are overrated; I mean, Tobirama's special feature was suiton element, and later on we learn about lot of shinobi's using that element, especially producing them from thin air <and Kisame just popped up and messed up Second Hokage :p> If someone is overrated, that would be Hashirama. But I don't think that it's because of the fans - I think it's rather because of Kishi who showed that awesome panel from the fight Hashirama vs Madara in 399 chapter.

As for my opinion: frankly speaking I don't consider Tobirama being superb extra uber etc. <even on pl board he's nothing special>, but Hashirama is a different matter. Most of the fans put him on equall grounds with Madara as "nr0", which is argumented as "having a little info about them"; I also think that despite that I would put him as nr0 - if we could learn more it would be awesome, if not - assumption can be quite correct: he beat Madara in his prime <I mean, Madara himself now states he's a shelf of his former self>, with Kyuubi as a pet, only with his abilities alone. I just can imagine from what I saw from Yamato: if that guy with the DNA of the first is doing so much with his "pathetic" mokuton, what would do Hashirama himself? Yeah, I have the impression he would be able to annihilate everyone with just his mokuton abilities alone <yeah, he didn't show much during Hiruzen fight <"just" some forest>, but compare it to what he's doing on the big panel against Madara - it's like the forest is against you :p>. The rest: genjutsu, taijutsu were top level by standards of shinobi <like int he fight with Hiruzen for example>, so to me Hashirama was/is the perfect example of being one of the most powerful shinobis <just from imagining what he was capable of with his kekkei genkai>.

So to answer the topic question: no, I don't think that Hashirama is overrated - Kishi just hyped him recently <by recently I mean from the moment when we learn from Madara, that he beat him> so much and that's why he may seem to be overrated. About Tobirama I answered earlier: I don't consider him overrated <at least I don't see it xd>

[hakuthehedgehog]

I don't think the first 2 Hokages are overrated in any way, but it is clear that Tobirama is much weaker than Harishama in every way possible.
Harishama has to be stupidly strong if he beat Madara at his prime, which mean he beat Susano'o, Amateraus, Tsukuyumy and the Kyuubi, and kicked his ass so hard that it still hurts to this day.
So no, they aren't overrated, Hiruzen is just that awesome that he was able to beat them both.
Oh, and a little P.S: It's not obligatory that they were killed in combat by superior shinobi, for all that is worth, they could've been stealthly assassined.

[Oathencrantz]

Delbi, I got you're post from the other thread so thanks for directing me here.

Lemme just get something clear: 1, I'm not a fan. If I was going to be a fan of anyone then it would be Haku, Hanzo, Hiruzen & Kimimaro (maybe even the Kumo Bros.). 2, I don't think the Senju Bros. are "Gods", that's just stupid, I don't even think Rikudo Sennin's a God.

Now more about this thread. We now know that the Senju clan descended from the younger brother (ancestor) and inherited the Sage's 'body', which includes the willpower and physical energy. If we understand the jutsu 'Kuchiyose: Edo Tensei', then we should understand that a human sacrifice is used as a vessel for the soul of the person the user of the technique is trying to resurrect. From this, we can almost be certain that the 'body' aspect of the Sage was missing from Hashirama and Tobirama in their fight against Hiruzen. Another vital point is the fact that Edo Tensei includes a seal which erases the soul of its freewill and puts it under the control of the user. So this clearly means that Orochimaru was controling the Senju Bros. What the hell does Orochimaru know about their fighting style? Was he using them to their full potential? Did he care about their well being? (obviously he didn't need to, but still...). Now all these reasons are why I cannot accept that what we saw of the Senju Bros. in this fight as their full potential, no way. 'Tis why I don't believe it to be a true assessment of their abilities at 100%.

& yea, I too would love to know the details of Hashirama vs Madara but we know enough to know that Madara lost. How? Well for one, Madara admitted it and he's still suffering from the several arseholes Hashirama ripped him (for 50+ years, yikes!). Plus, I'm sure we all know that Madara is one of the greatest ninjas ever spawned so it doesn't matter what techniques he had, he still had the EMS and that surely came with a God-like jutsu(s); along with what ever he got from the MS. & before I forget, Kyuubi... Yea, maybe it could have been like Tug-O-War after a while, with the Kyuubi being the rope, but it was still there as a tool to be used by Madara regardless.

If anyone's garbage among the Hokages............ then it's no one along the Hokage line. All have paid their dues to Konoha, and to them does the Konohans owe their gratitude. So no, I do not think the Senju Bros. are overrated, I feel they need to be respected more. There's much more out there that are way more overrated.

Little comments on some things you said:

Tobirama's "BY FAR, the weakest of all the Hokages there have ever been" - Riiiiight (dunno how you're able to make that assessment), but I guess we may see what he's really made of in the future.

"Sarturobi Hiruzen, was stated to be the Strongest Hokage ever" - Pshh, all the Hokages at some point have been said to be the greatest (but I guess Hiruzen has more weight behind his hype "God of Shinobi", "The Professor" < Sick).

"Logic would tell us then, they were both killed in battle by superior shinobi" - How do you know they were killed by superior shinobi? How do you know they were not ambushed by a batch of Jounin? Why does logic tell you that, & what's wrong with dieing young due to disease? Itachi was 21 and had a disease he was dieing from...

"He has the ability to create a suiton that usually takes 27 handseals, with 1 or 2" - 44 to 1.

Shouldn't be anything here to cause a flame war. Good topic btw, I've been looking for a thread about these guys.

[Cyven]

If a disease is what killed them, I'd be annoyed. Seems disease is what kills off all the strong characters :P

[KnuckleheadedNinja]

I have yet to see a character(who ain't fodders) who isn't overrated. Every character is overrated by his/her fan base, it a reader nature. So, yes they are overrated. But I don't think their overrated-ness is anymore than seen for every other strong characters.

[Destined_One]

@Oathencrantz, Nice post btw, just one thing on your 'Sage Body' theory with Edo Tensei, wasn't a requirement for the jutsu, the use of the remains of the chosen ninja? Not sure what the DB says, though I am sure it makes a complete copy of the original. I just think Kishimoto, while creating the later storyline, decided to make Hashirama stronger than what he originally intended. Though I don't think that retcon changes that much, as Kishimoto's hype toward Hiruzen was already rather high, so it was believable that he was stronger in his prime anyway.

[Googlez_kun]

wow,until now,i am the only one who voted for both of them being overrated
but in my opinion that's not really their fault,it's Kishimoto's fault,because he changed the power levels in part II,so that a lot of ninja nowadays could easily beat the elite from the past century,eventhough that's also caused by the general theme of the manga "the next generation surpasses the old one" and simply because shinobi weren't that "big" fighters who had huge arsenals with a-rank ninjutsu like nowadays!I would even dare to say that Sasuke is able to beat every ninja from those early days,simply because they were real ninja i guess and they weren't as power hungry as the new generation,which seems to have the need to get stronger and misses the true sense of a shinobi.Danzou is a perfect example i think,he is a ninja from the old days,where they had to be ninja,but now it's all about power,so he had to go with the flow and has the sharingan haxes on and in his body and is experimenting with it for the sake of power.He knows that a strong Hokage nowadays has to be like the strongest in the world,unlike Tobirama.

[Delbi]

Tobirama's "BY FAR, the weakest of all the Hokages there have ever been" - Riiiiight (dunno how you're able to make that assessment), but I guess we may see what he's really made of in the future.

Based on what we know about him, and what we've seen from him, I think it's a fair assessment.

I think we can both agree Hirashima is his superior.
Hiruzen is stronger than all the Kages.
Don't think you'd argue that Minato is better.
Kakashi, can do what he does, just not as good, but also has an arsenal of jutsu and is skilled in every are of ninja combat, and he has the Sharigan and MS.
Tsuande has super strength, is very hard to kill, and has a very useful summon.
Danzou is proving near impossible to be killed, and his Futon Techniques are insane.



"Sarturobi Hiruzen, was stated to be the Strongest Hokage ever" - Pshh, all the Hokages at some point have been said to be the greatest (but I guess Hiruzen has more weight behind his hype "God of Shinobi", "The Professor" < Sick).

Hirashima was said to stand atop the ninja world over 80 years ago.
Minato was only said to be the "Greatest" shinobi Konoha ever produced. Great has nothing to do with strength.

Hiruzen however, was said to be the Strongest Hokage ever. This statement was made after Minato died, and obviously overrides Hirashima's power because of the word "ever".

It's a canon fact that Hiruzen was the strongest Hokage ever, there really is no debating it.



"Logic would tell us then, they were both killed in battle by superior shinobi" - How do you know they were killed by superior shinobi? How do you know they were not ambushed by a batch of Jounin? Why does logic tell you that, & what's wrong with dieing young due to disease? Itachi was 21 and had a disease he was dieing from...

I don't think they died young for a few reasons.
1) Nothing was ever said about either of them being sick.
2) If the Senju clan inherited the "strong body", I'd expect them to be rather resistant to things like disease and bodily sickness.
3) Tsuande, there only living relative, has no health problems that aren't caused from her own over exertion.

So, Logic would tell me, they were killed by superior shinobi.

Could they have been ambushed by Jounins? Sure, but from what we have seen, it would take a lot of highly skilled Jounins to take down a Kage, especially one with Hirashima's abilities. Tobirama I could believe, not Hirashima. Also, ANBU help guard the Hokage's when they aren't already protected by everyone in their village. So these ambushers would have to kill ninja who specialize in assassinations and what not before they even got to the Hokage.

Both Minato and Danzou showed us that even when outnumbered, a Kage can obliterate a lot of skilled ninja with relative ease.

In any event, I personally think Hirashima died of his wounds at the VOTE, because the manga makes it sound in a way that his brother took over right after that fight, and I really can't imagine him killing Madara and living himself if they were such equals and Madara had the Kyuubi with him.



"He has the ability to create a suiton that usually takes 27 handseals, with 1 or 2" - 44 to 1.

Thanks for the correction, my bad.

Even still though, as I said, handseals are just used to control chakra, this just tells us he has good chakra control, like many ninja do in the manga. And his own Great Grandniece has perfect chakra control

[Lightsnake]

Based on what we know about him, and what we've seen from him, I think it's a fair assessment.

I think we can both agree Hirashima is his superior.
Hiruzen is stronger than all the Kages.
Don't think you'd argue that Minato is better.
Kakashi, can do what he does, just not as good, but also has an arsenal of jutsu and is skilled in every are of ninja combat, and he has the Sharigan and MS.
Tsuande has super strength, is very hard to kill, and has a very useful summon.
Danzou is proving near impossible to be killed, and his Futon Techniques are insane.

Danzo's Fuuton techniques have shown nothing on anyone who isn't faceless fodder. Tsunade's also only that dangerous if she hits you.



Hirashima was said to stand atop the ninja world over 80 years ago.
Minato was only said to be the "Greatest" shinobi Konoha ever produced. Great has nothing to do with strength.
The quote can be used as greatest or strongest depending on which translation you use.


Hiruzen however, was said to be the Strongest Hokage ever. This statement was made after Minato died, and obviously overrides Hirashima's power because of the word "ever".
By...Iruka. Back in part 1. Before Hashirama was established.
Yeah, Iruka is a great source. And it said Hiruzen was SAID to be the strongest in his prime alone.


It's a canon fact that Hiruzen was the strongest Hokage ever, there really is no debating it.
Delbi, because you decide on something? Doesn't make it fact



I don't think they died young for a few reasons.
1) Nothing was ever said about either of them being sick.
2) If the Senju clan inherited the "strong body", I'd expect them to be rather resistant to things like disease and bodily sickness.
3) Tsuande, there only living relative, has no health problems that aren't caused from her own over exertion.

So, Logic would tell me, they were killed by superior shinobi.

By superior...oh, dear lord. Who are these 'superior' Shinobi, Delbi?
hashirama as I pointed out in the past topic, that you have apparently ignored utterly, very likely died after the fight with Madara of wounds sustained there, given Tobirama became Hokage almost immediately after and apparently distrusted the Uchiha when he did.
Tobirama merely died in the war after giving the title of Hokage to Hiruzen. For all we know, he fought an entire army by himself or fought three Kages at once
[Qupte]
Could they have been ambushed by Jounins? Sure, but from what we have seen, it would take a lot of highly skilled Jounins to take down a Kage, especially one with Hirashima's abilities. Tobirama I could believe, not Hirashima. Also, ANBU help guard the Hokage's when they aren't already protected by everyone in their village. So these ambushers would have to kill ninja who specialize in assassinations and what not before they even got to the Hokage. [/Quote]
They died in BATTLE.
Notably, Jiraiya, when reflecting of the past Hokages as a young man, considers he wanted to die like them as a Shinobi's true measure is in his death. This indicates both Hashirama and Tobirama had great, heroic deaths. Hashirama very likely died after defeating Madara, saving the village from the Kyuubi. Tobirama apparently died as heroically. Given the trend of Hokages, from Tsunade, to Hiruzen to Minato perform great sacrifices against a threat? See the theme?



Both Minato and Danzou showed us that even when outnumbered, a Kage can obliterate a lot of skilled ninja with relative ease.
Minato has a technique for that...and Danzo fought...21 ninja. Of...what skill exactly?



In any event, I personally think Hirashima died of his wounds at the VOTE, because the manga makes it sound in a way that his brother took over right after that fight, and I really can't imagine him killing Madara and living himself if they were such equals and Madara had the Kyuubi with him.
Ok, what I said earlier, I take it back, apparently you did read what I wrote.



Thanks for the correction, my bad.

Even still though, as I said, handseals are just used to control chakra, this just tells us he has good chakra control, like many ninja do in the manga. And his own Great Grandniece has perfect chakra control

Tobirama is also apparently known as the greatest water manipulator ever. Apparently.
However, they were not just beaten by 'superior Shinobi.' Hokages have a tendency to die heroically against great threats. Tobirama died in the first Ninja War, apparently knowing he was going to his death as he gave Hiruzen the title of Hokage before he did so. Jiraiya, who was alive at the time and would've known, says he wanted to die like the Hokages of the past, which would be Hashirama and Tobirama.
In other words, whatever time Tobirama was trying to buy or whoever he was attempting to take out? It worked. For all we know, he took on the other three Kages at once, killed them and died of his injuries, or faced numerous armies alone.
Tobirama was the second amongst the Senju which means he'd have faced the Uchiha on a regular basis, which likely means he took on Izuna Uchiha once or twice...given Izuna was held as Madara's equal in power prior to the , this would imply a good level of skill. Granted, some of that is speculation, but Tobirama and Izuna being the younger siblings of their arch enemy brothers, it fits

[Zatono]

Harishama has to be stupidly strong if he beat Madara at his prime, which mean he beat Susano'o, Amateraus, Tsukuyumy and the Kyuubi, and kicked his ass so hard that it still hurts to this day.
So no, they aren't overrated, Hiruzen is just that awesome that he was able to beat them both.


This. Seriously, he took down the strongest Uchiha, in his prime. Not to mention he beat the EMS, and we don't even know if it does anything besides give you your eyesight. Being able to avoid Tsukiyomi and Amaterasu isn't as difficult as we once thought, but beating Susano'o? Being able to get past Yata's Mirror, and the Sword of Totsuka? This is going on the assumption that all Susano'o have these items by the way, since it's popular belief. But not only that, he had to fight the Kyuubi all at the same time.

If anything, Kishi is just changing his mind now because having Madara lose to someone who was weaker then the third Hokage, but could somehow do so much crap in his prime, wouldn't make any sense.

[Delbi]

Hiruzen, for what it's worth, was called the "God Amongst Shinobi". He was deemed the "Strongest Hokage ever", and was also called the "Professor" because of his mastery of all of Konoha's ninjutsu. No ninja in the manga has been given as high or as much praise as him. By virtue of him being the strongest "Hokage ever" that only leaves a select few who could be stronger than him or become stronger. IMO, the list of those who could be outright stronger at their peeks would be Nagato, Jiraiya and Itachi. Naruto, Sasuke, Killerbee, the Raikage, and possibly Danzou could also be thrown into the argument.

Although we have never seen him fight in his prime, I'm willing to bet Hiruzen possessed jutsu to deal with anything either Hirashima or Madara threw at him while they were at their best. Afterall, if he knew every jutsu Konoha had to offer, he'd have to have something. In fact that would mean he knew every jutsu in the forbiden scroll. And he also has the Death God which would allow him to kill anyone, but at the cost of his own life.

We have to remeber, Hiruzen was stated to use multiple shadow clones on a regular basis in battle by his ANBU. When he fought Orochimaru he made two and this was considered a small amount, but in the meantime the only ninja to truly use more than 1 or 2 is Naruto.

Saying that, if Hiruzen could say make seven KB's, all capable of utlizing his awesome arsenal of jutsu, there are few if any ninja that would be able to stand up against he onsalught he'd be able to produce.

Even Madara, for what it's worth, would have trouble with his phasing technique because he'd never be able to attack, after all he has to become solid to do so, and when he did attack, he'd find a blitzkreig of ninjutsu on top of him.

It's also suspect that Madara possessed Sussano. He calls it a rare feat that few have accomplished. It would seem he has Tsyukiyomi, otherwise his Moon's eye plan would be for naught. But then again, he could plan on using Sasuke's body and eyes to carry out the plan.

Until we know what abilities besides the Kyuubi that Madara had at his disposal while fighting Hirashima, that whole fight is a big unknown.

Madara right now seems invicible, but theres no telling if he even had his space/time jutsu back then.

[NAM61]

iruka was the one to call the 3rd hokage the strongest not by others. and others thought the 4th was the strongest like anko when she was wishing for him to be alive after oro should up when she was talking to the 3rd, i think it was a matter of opinion.

i do not think so especially the 1st hokage. he controlled all the bijuus and gave them to others nations to establish peace. he was also able to defeat madara along with the kyuubi. also according to madara even the uchiha clan choose him to be hokage when kohona was created. he was probably a respectable and honorable man.

about the second hokage we do not know much about him as we do about the others. only that he was goo with water jutsu and unlike other he only needed one hand sign to use the water dragon jutsu why others like kakashi had to do over 40 and the cut it to the teens i think.

[Lightsnake]

Hiruzen, for what it's worth, was called the "God Amongst Shinobi". He was deemed the "Strongest Hokage ever", and was also called the "Professor" because of his mastery of all of Konoha's ninjutsu. No ninja in the manga has been given as high or as much praise as him. By virtue of him being the strongest "Hokage ever" that only leaves a select few who could be stronger than him or become stronger. IMO, the list of those who could be outright stronger at their peeks would be Nagato, Jiraiya and Itachi. Naruto, Sasuke, Killerbee, the Raikage, and possibly Danzou could also be thrown into the argument.
Why do titles mean the guy is greater than anyone? It's just that: a title. Zabuza's called the Demon of the Mist while Kisame's just 'the monster,' but who's greater.
And why exactly can Hashirama and Minato not be considered? Minato, depending on the translation is also said to be the strongest. Anko sure believes he is, too



Although we have never seen him fight in his prime, I'm willing to bet Hiruzen possessed jutsu to deal with anything either Hirashima or Madara threw at him while they were at their best.
Prove it. He doesn't lose jutsu when he got older. If he had something of that magnitude, he'd have wiped Orochimaru out



Afterall, if he knew every jutsu Konoha had to offer, he'd have to have something. In fact that would mean he knew every jutsu in the forbiden scroll. And he also has the Death God which would allow him to kill anyone, but at the cost of his own life.
He had to have 'something?' Well, what to stop Mokuton or the EMS techniques?
And the Death God is NOT fool proof. He needs to get to them and grab them. Never mind he wouldn't have that in his prime as Minato was the inventor of it.


We have to remeber, Hiruzen was stated to use multiple shadow clones on a regular basis in battle by his ANBU. When he fought Orochimaru he made two and this was considered a small amount, but in the meantime the only ninja to truly use more than 1 or 2 is Naruto.
...making multiple shadow clones is godly power?
Don't forget he could afford the division of chakra as he didn't plan to survive it anyways



Saying that, if Hiruzen could say make seven KB's, all capable of utlizing his awesome arsenal of jutsu, there are few if any ninja that would be able to stand up against he onsalught he'd be able to produce.
Yes. However, Hashirama and Madara have abilities that make them part of that few. Minato too



Even Madara, for what it's worth, would have trouble with his phasing technique because he'd never be able to attack, after all he has to become solid to do so, and when he did attack, he'd find a blitzkreig of ninjutsu on top of him.
Or he'd just teleport behind him, teleport Hiruzen elsewhere, or use the other MS techniques..



It's also suspect that Madara possessed Sussano. He calls it a rare feat that few have accomplished. It would seem he has Tsyukiyomi, otherwise his Moon's eye plan would be for naught. But then again, he could plan on using Sasuke's body and eyes to carry out the plan.
Madara awakened his Mangekyo fully. In his prime before he was crippled he almost certainly had the others.



Until we know what abilities besides the Kyuubi that Madara had at his disposal while fighting Hirashima, that whole fight is a big unknown.
The MS abilities, his space time Jutsu, amongst others.
Don't forget Hashirama and Madara fought numerous times before



Madara right now seems invicible, but theres no telling if he even had his space/time jutsu back then.
IT's a product of his Sharingan, of course he did. He also had an immortality jutsu that enabled his survival.

Again, why does Iruka overwrite Jiraiya who knew Minato and Hiruzen in both their primes?

[Darth Executor]

I figure this is a good time to say this before I start talking about why I think they are overrated. Sarturobi Hiruzen, was stated to be the Strongest Hokage ever.

So was Minato. Everyone pimps their favorite Hokage, including manga characters.



(And please, they were as powerful as ever, nothing points to them being weaker than they were supposed to be when Orochimaru summoned them.)

Actually something does: yamato, a supposedly inferior mokuton user has displayed far better use of it than Hashirama did during the fight with Sarutobi. If Hashirama wasn't weaker, why didn't he spam his kekkei genkai like crazy? He made no attempt to entangle enma, or impale Sarutobi or anything remotely resembling a realistic use of his ability. Additionally, their minds were essentially erased and under Oro's complete control, so even if their raw strength was the same, their minds could be gone. It's difficult to tell because Kishi doesn't really make sense. Additionally, Hashirma did not have his bijuu pets with him.

What I think actually happened is that ninja were not supposed to get as powerful as they have in part 2. In part 1, oro was probably the strongest ninja known to us. In part 2 he's barely above fodder. Since Hashirama at the level he was when he fought sarutobi is nowhere near strong enough to make sense during the current story, Kishi just jacked up his power to god-like levels, and if pressed he'll probably just give the (plausible) excuse that edo tensei summons are not as strong as the original.

[redred]

Are they Overrated? IMO no.
The First Hokage pretty much deserves all the praise he can be given.
the guy was leader of the most powerful tribe that rivaled the uchiha had the power to control several tailed beasts by himself? i mean for someone who has that kind of power and notoriety to be considered overrated i think youd need to have people comparing him to the sage of the six paths and shit.

when it comes to the second, id give that a maybe, just because we've never really heard much about the guy. so we can't exactly judge. but then again he had to be of considerable skill if he became hokage. *shrug*

[Oathencrantz]

Based on what we know about him, and what we've seen from him, I think it's a fair assessment.

I think we can both agree Hirashima is his superior.
Hiruzen is stronger than all the Kages.
Don't think you'd argue that Minato is better.
Kakashi, can do what he does, just not as good, but also has an arsenal of jutsu and is skilled in every are of ninja combat, and he has the Sharigan and MS.
Tsuande has super strength, is very hard to kill, and has a very useful summon.
Danzou is proving near impossible to be killed, and his Futon Techniques are insane.

...but that's still not enough to say Tobirama's "BY FAR, the weakest of all the Hokages there have ever been", not even close. I mean, we know the LEAST about him out of all the Hokages, so no, that's not a fair assessment. Most of the people in the manga making comments about who's the best weren't even in the same generation to see some of the Hokages' abilities.


Hirashima was said to stand atop the ninja world over 80 years ago.
Minato was only said to be the "Greatest" shinobi Konoha ever produced. Great has nothing to do with strength.

I'm not talking about "Hashirama standing atop the ninja world over 80 years ago", I'm talking about what the anbu captain said on this page: http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/118/04/ - That was also a statement made after Minato died and while Hiruzen was alive, so what's your point? (Referring to the quote below)


Hiruzen however, was said to be the Strongest Hokage ever. This statement was made after Minato died, and obviously overrides Hirashima's power because of the word "ever".

Refer to what I said above.


It's a canon fact that Hiruzen was the strongest Hokage ever, there really is no debating it.

There is debating it, it's something that's been happening for a few years now.



I don't think they died young for a few reasons.
1) Nothing was ever said about either of them being sick.
2) If the Senju clan inherited the "strong body", I'd expect them to be rather resistant to things like disease and bodily sickness.
3) Tsuande, there only living relative, has no health problems that aren't caused from her own over exertion.

So, Logic would tell me, they were killed by superior shinobi.

Could they have been ambushed by Jounins? Sure, but from what we have seen, it would take a lot of highly skilled Jounins to take down a Kage, especially one with Hirashima's abilities. Tobirama I could believe, not Hirashima. Also, ANBU help guard the Hokage's when they aren't already protected by everyone in their village. So these ambushers would have to kill ninja who specialize in assassinations and what not before they even got to the Hokage.

Both Minato and Danzou showed us that even when outnumbered, a Kage can obliterate a lot of skilled ninja with relative ease.

In any event, I personally think Hirashima died of his wounds at the VOTE, because the manga makes it sound in a way that his brother took over right after that fight, and I really can't imagine him killing Madara and living himself if they were such equals and Madara had the Kyuubi with him.

"Nothing was ever said about either of them being sick" - Neither was anything about them being killed by superior ninja. Psh, even if they did die in battle that's still honorable for a shinobi; Hiruzen did, Minato did, Jiraiya did, Gekko did, Nagato did, Obito did and many more.

If Hashirama died due to wounds received from his battle with Madara at the VoTE, then wouldn't that have been mentioned by now? Isn't that something rather important to miss out when talking about Hashirama's and Madara's conflict? Imo, if that was the case, Madara would have mentioned that to save face.



Thanks for the correction, my bad.

Even still though, as I said, handseals are just used to control chakra, this just tells us he has good chakra control, like many ninja do in the manga. And his own Great Grandniece has perfect chakra control

Too bad she's not really battle orientated, unlike Chiyo.

[kingplaya(minato)]

I voted only hashirama...WHY?... No one talks about tobirama that much so he isn't overated, just not talked about... But the shoidaime has 2 me, been a lil overhyped but its mainly kishi's fault. Cuz in part 2 he's changed so many things that the 1st looks god-like but i think there is a plausable theory here... Maybe the senju had something to counter the sharingans abilities and thats why they were the only ones able to stand up to them and if we take granny chiyo's word and what we've seen of the manga then its possible only the senju with an ability to counter the sharingan were able to stand up to them... This is only theory but it can be true. There is something i want 2 correct though, the way people talk about the 3rd and his prime is a bit pathetic... When he gets older he would NEVER lose any technique but learn more and the only thing that really changes is the amount of chakra so if he had any big uber tech or mode, he would have shown it in his fight against oro. Not downplaying the guy but he doesn't lose any tech he has with old age cuz that is just pathetic...
[hr]
I voted only hashirama...WHY?... No one talks about tobirama that much so he isn't overated, just not talked about... But the shoidaime has 2 me, been a lil overhyped but its mainly kishi's fault. Cuz in part 2 he's changed so many things that the 1st looks god-like but i think there is a plausable theory here... Maybe the senju had something to counter the sharingans abilities and thats why they were the only ones able to stand up to them and if we take granny chiyo's word and what we've seen of the manga then its possible only the senju with an ability to counter the sharingan were able to stand up to them... This is only theory but it can be true. There is something i want 2 correct though, the way people talk about the 3rd and his prime is a bit pathetic... When he gets older he would NEVER lose any technique but learn more and the only thing that really changes is the amount of chakra so if he had any big uber tech or mode, he would have shown it in his fight against oro. Not downplaying the guy but he doesn't lose any tech he has with old age cuz that is just pathetic...
[hr]
I voted only hashirama...WHY?... No one talks about tobirama that much so he isn't overated, just not talked about... But the shoidaime has 2 me, been a lil overhyped but its mainly kishi's fault. Cuz in part 2 he's changed so many things that the 1st looks god-like but i think there is a plausable theory here... Maybe the senju had something to counter the sharingans abilities and thats why they were the only ones able to stand up to them and if we take granny chiyo's word and what we've seen of the manga then its possible only the senju with an ability to counter the sharingan were able to stand up to them... This is only theory but it can be true. There is something i want 2 correct though, the way people talk about the 3rd and his prime is a bit pathetic... When he gets older he would NEVER lose any technique but learn more and the only thing that really changes is the amount of chakra so if he had any big uber tech or mode, he would have shown it in his fight against oro. Not downplaying the guy but he doesn't lose any tech he has with old age cuz that is just pathetic...
[hr]
I voted only hashirama...WHY?... No one talks about tobirama that much so he isn't overated, just not talked about... But the shoidaime has 2 me, been a lil overhyped but its mainly kishi's fault. Cuz in part 2 he's changed so many things that the 1st looks god-like but i think there is a plausable theory here... Maybe the senju had something to counter the sharingans abilities and thats why they were the only ones able to stand up to them and if we take granny chiyo's word and what we've seen of the manga then its possible only the senju with an ability to counter the sharingan were able to stand up to them... This is only theory but it can be true. There is something i want 2 correct though, the way people talk about the 3rd and his prime is a bit pathetic... When he gets older he would NEVER lose any technique but learn more and the only thing that really changes is the amount of chakra so if he had any big uber tech or mode, he would have shown it in his fight against oro. Not downplaying the guy but he doesn't lose any tech he has with old age cuz that is just pathetic...
[hr]
Sorry, bout this posting... My browser is really fucked!

[zimbardo]

He possess the Moukton Kekkai Genkai, which allows him to create trees which can bind, pierce, smash, etc. He can literally create forests, as most of the tree's in Konoha were created by him. This technique is a dandy, but for what it's worth, its rather slow, and in Yamato's case at least, is very weak against lightning. (Given it's half of it's make-up is Earth, this makes sense).
.............
If he has no tailed beasts around to control, his overall jutsu arsenal seems rather weak, no?


Firstly I cannot see where in the manga shows that this technique is slow in any way.
for example he begins casting it as soon as Sarutobi jumps (http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/120/06/) and it has already bound him up when he lands (and covered most of the surrounding area). (http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/120/07/) As ninjas in this manga jump around at crazy speeds, this technique must be pretty quick.
Then we have this, from no trees (http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/122/03/) to a crazy number. (http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/122/04/) All before Sarutobi can move.
Now as for it being fast when used by Yamato
Here he can generate a complicated structure from nothing (a house) very rapidly. (http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/287/14/)
Here he almost instantly creates supports for a collapsing bridge -which I'd imagine (looking at the damage) would collapse very quickly. (http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/292/10/) It is also quick enough to be used to catch a falling Sakura, as soon as Yamato realised Sai was not going to. (http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/292/14/)
I believe that should be enough to show it's speed.

I also do not believe that it is weak to lightning, just because it is half earth. In fact, I see that when elements are combined they gain their own properties that are completely seperate from their starting elements.
Now it is hard to find examples of lightning being used against wood outside of that one quick skirmish, however This example of Yamato using wood to push back Sasuke's lightning charged sword should help display my point. (http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/309/07/)

Now onto the final one of your points that I highlighted.
If we ignore that I think more of the wood element then you do (as in saying that just having the wood element would mean that you have a rather weak arsenal of jutsu, because I think that even if all you had was the wood element it is better than if all you had was katon (for example)) he has only been shown in one full fight (ignoring the madara stuff - which is just freeze frames), and only in a few frames of that fight. There is nothing to say that all he does have is wood and that one genjutsu (which is also pretty powerful at that - as stated by Sarutobi). It is likely that he also has a pretty strong grasp of the earth and water styles also.
Therefore his over rating is not down to his lack of tallent, but just that he has not been shown enough in the manga.

As for his brother, well he is shown even less. He also doesn't show much in that fight, and so stating that he is over rated is the same as saying that Hanzo is (as neither have really been shown fighting all that much (in fact Hanzo has had much more screentime then the second).

[braindamage351]

How the hell could Hashirama be overrated? The 7 bijuus alone are enough to take on the entire shinobi world (7 bijuus vs. 6 nations is the 4th world war). The simple fact that this guy uses bijuus like pokemon instantly makes him top-5 all time among shinobi. And it's not counter-intuitive, it makes perfect sense when you realize that.

But that's not all, even his normal skills are crazy. Danzo has the chakra to sustain 11 sharingans at once, and spam some kind of MS-level sharingan move over and over, but his chakra took a huge hit after making one thick-ass tree (which was tough enough to divert an attack from <i>Susanoo</i>). Hashirama, on the other hand, had chakra insane enough to turn a battlefield into a forest and wrangle the kyuubi. I mean, shit, look at the size of the mokuton he was using on Sarutobi pretimeskip. We underrated the shit out of him because we were seriously underrating Enma, but he was doing some PTJ-level stuff as far back as the chuunin exams. And he even had a top-class genjutsu. Absolutely ridiculous.

And that's not all. Think of all the potential biological shit you could pull off with mokuton. You turn your flesh into a tree and then back into flesh? Hashirama could easily have been nigh-immortal even without edo tensei. Maybe fuse with the trees and pop out like Kimimaro did with his bones? There are a ton of unexplored possibilities.

Nidaime? Well, come on, you seriously think water wall is all he knows? Asuma showed more than that. It's ridiculous to even pretend we know enough about Nidaime to judge.

[Lightsnake]

Danzo can't maintain them at once all the time...that's why he keeps them sealed.

[3c]

I can't believe I didn't see this thread before now, great thread Delbi. Finally we can bring logic to the table in an appropriate thread. First things first, I didn't read all the posts here, nor will I most likely. I read the OP, because that's all I wanted to read, and frankly I've had enough discussions and thoughts around this issue for a long enough time to come to a conlusion that is final.

Are they overrated? Definitely. Now wait before you go "omg lulz I disagree y0 noob!1!!" as the poll is clearly against me and Delbi aswell as possibly others here. On a side note I often hate polls as many seem to just vote for the lulz without actually having a clue about the matter and without reading the needed posts to make a final conclusion. Polls shouldn't be voted in before actually having a decent opinion. So over to my reasoning. I'll take them one at a time.

First Tobirama, he's completely overrated. Now let's keep in mind that he was established early on in part 1, where ninja still used handseals for most jutsu and being such a master with Suiton actually was awesome. So back in part 1 he definitely was Hokage material. However that's almost 400 chapters ago! So I ask you disbelievers, is it still the same manga? If you have any clue, then your answer should without a doubt be "No it isn't." Ninja now don't use handseals, or most of the time don't. Only old school ninja like Danzou and Kakashi use handseals, mostly. Many of the powerful jutsu are now used without handseals, and even if they are used not many handseals are needed. It's NO ONE that use 30 handseals anymore. Everyone that uses handseals only use a few ones and voilá the jutsu comes out. So Tobirama's great feat of only using 1-2 instead of 30 is nothing anymore. Then it's Suiton. That's also no big deal. Kisame is definitely on the same level as Tobirama if not high above in the use of Suiton. And Kisame could even transform into a shark to be a damn predator inside his own water. Tobirama is just a normal Suiton user for what we know. In short Tobirama sucks, and like Delbi said he's by far the weakest Hokage.

Then the big man, Hashirama. Why is he overrated? Because he defeated Madara. Delbi already adressed it very thoroughly so I'll try to keep it short and without repeating to much of what he said. Nothing is known about this fight. As Delbi said for all we know Hashirama could actually have beaten Madara by using Madara's own pet against him. And for the record, Hashirama's Bijuu control is a useless power in most fights as he doesn't have any Bijuu to control. He gave away all the other Bijuus, and Madara took Kyuubi. So Hashirama most likely sat in Konoha with a "wtf..?" bubble above his head when Madara stole his trumph card. Then it's his wood. What's so great about this? Sure it can do about anything and could be seriously annoying for a fighter if he just continously spammed wood all over the place. But other than that it's really not that big a deal.

As we saw in Sandaime vs Oro/Shodai/Nidaime, Sandaime completely outclassed them all. And that was Sandaime way past his prime without the chakra reserves to fight properly, while evidence points towards Shodaime and Nidaime being at their 100%. Now before any of you try to say that they were weakened bla bla bla without having ANY evidence what so ever to back up the claim, let me say this. This fight was early in the manga. At this time Shodaime and Nidaime were actually strong fighters. But what happened? Way later, about 300 chapters later, Madara was introduced. And who beat him? Hashirama did. Now every fan in existance questioned how the hell Shodaime could do that, and the conclusion was that he must have been weakened against Sandaime because obviously the same Shodaime couldn't have beaten Madara in his fucking prime. Why couldn't he have done so? Because fighters had grown to new levels, and people actually concluded that Sandaime wasn't that strong anymore compared to new villains. This is btw bullshit as Sandaime was and still is a damn beast, but that doesn't belong here. Back to topic, well sure that's "logical" thinking. However we know nothing about the fight. And let's remember that this is not a manga judged by power levels. This manga is judged by abilities vs abilities, and clearly in some form Hashirama had a great advantage against Madara, the first being that he could probably counter Madara's control over Kyuubi, the rest is unknown. But the fact remains that no evidence point towards Hashirama NOT being at his 100% against Hiruzen, so the fact is that the same Hashirama fought Madara and won unless proven otherwise. The problem that all the disbelievers have, is that Kishi's words contradicts the actual manga material that was published 300 chapters earlier, or seem to do so atleast. But Hashirama, the same that fought Hiruzen did defeat Madara, and yes that is entirely possible as his abilities could easily have been the magic counter for Madara. How however I fail to understand. As prime Madara most likely was stronger than current Sasuke, by far. And honestly I believe that not even Kishi knows how to explain how Hashirama won, hence why he never hinted or showed more of the fight.

Just think about this, as Tobirama should be obvious. What is so great about Hashirama? His Bijuu control that is useless in 99% of his fights, his wood? What makes him so fucking great that he's the "strongest of all time?" which clearly Kishi disagrees with as Kishi himself said that the current strongest dead shinobi are Hiruzen and Minato. You read that right, no mention of Hashirama. Hiruzen and Minato were clearly stronger shinobi in general.

[zimbardo]

I just thought I would pick up a few points here...
But as the page is "do you think they are over rated", I have no way of proving you wrong, so before I begin this is not against you personally and is just for discussions sake. (I have ...ed where i have deleted stuff to shorten your post to the points i want to adress)


First things first, I didn't read all the posts here, nor will I most likely. I read the OP, because that's all I wanted to read, and frankly I've had enough discussions and thoughts around this issue for a long enough time to come to a conlusion that is final...
There are only 2 pages, so it isn't all that much to read. But whatever.


First Tobirama, he's completely overrated. Now let's keep in mind that he was established early on in part 1, where ninja still used handseals for most jutsu... Is it still the same manga? If you have any clue, then your answer should without a doubt be "No it isn't." Ninja now don't use handseals, or most of the time don't. Only old school ninja like Danzou and Kakashi use handseals, mostly. Many of the powerful jutsu are now used without handseals, and even if they are used not many handseals are needed... So Tobirama's great feat of only using 1-2 instead of 30 is nothing anymore...

This is the most important reason why I see it as hard to compare them to other ninjas (and therefore state if they are overrated or not)
You, yourself state that it is not the same manga as it once was. However as this is the case, then it is not fair to judge older ninjas on what more recent ninjas are showing. Especially in a fight as short as the hokage (and Orochimaru) one, where very few techniques were shown.

Also in the manga ninjas no longer are shown doing handsigns, however this doesn't mean that they do not do them. It would be a pain in the arse for Kishimoto to draw in hand signs each time someone wanted to do a technique, especially in fights where many techniques are used in rapid succession. This makes me think that if it was stated that Tobirama only had to use 1 or 2 signs instead of 30 then his control must be much, much greater than the average ninja (or the more experienced ones).


Then it's Suiton. That's also no big deal. Kisame is definitely on the same level as Tobirama if not high above in the use of Suiton...
I fail to see that just because it is suiton it is "no big deal". If he had done simmilar techniques with raiton would you still think it was no big deal? Also much more of Kisame has been shown, and he himself was probably the strongest of the 7 swordsmen, so was likely to be obscenely good at suiton. Therefore even if he was only as good as Kisame, he is still well in the top 0.01% of suiton ninjas and therefore deserves a high repuration for suiton.


Then the big man, Hashirama.... As Delbi said for all we know Hashirama could actually have beaten Madara by using Madara's own pet against him. And for the record, Hashirama's Bijuu control is a useless power in most fights as he doesn't have any Bijuu to control...

Then it's his wood. What's so great about this? Sure it can do about anything and could be seriously annoying for a fighter if he just continously spammed wood all over the place. But other than that it's really not that big a deal.
Well, the first point is true. That without bijuu, his bijuu controlling powers are useless in a fight. However that was only brought up in the newer manga (not in the Hokage fight - on which you appear to be judging his power level), and he was unlikely to have used bijuu in most of his battles.
Now even if he did just have wood (which i seriously doubt), I have said above why I think it is a seriously strong series of techniques. You yourself state "sure, if it could do about anything and could be seriously annoying for a fighter if he just continously spammed wood all over the place". Doesn't this make it a big deal?


As we saw in Sandaime vs Oro/Shodai/Nidaime, Sandaime completely outclassed them all. And that was Sandaime way past his prime without the chakra reserves to fight properly, while evidence points towards Shodaime and Nidaime being at their 100%...
There is no evidence really that points towards them being at their 100% as it is not stated that they are or arn't in the manga (that I can see).


Now before any of you try to say that they were weakened bla bla bla without having ANY evidence what so ever to back up the claim, let me say this. This fight was early in the manga....
As stated above, there is no evidence for or against the statement that they were weakened and therefore stating either way is pretty pointless without evidence.


...This is btw bullshit as Sandaime was and still is a damn beast, but that doesn't belong here...
Also from what we have seen in the manga so far, I doubt Sandiame would have been able to go toe to toe with anyone from after the timeskip. The manga (and powerlevels) have changed far too dramatically. Therefore it is hard to fairly judge older characters against newer ones.


...However we know nothing about the fight. And let's remember that this is not a manga judged by power levels. This manga is judged by abilities vs abilities, and clearly in some form Hashirama had a great advantage against Madara, the first being that he could probably counter Madara's control over Kyuubi, the rest is unknown. But the fact remains that no evidence point towards Hashirama NOT being at his 100% against Hiruzen...
As stated above for the 100% thing.
As to if he had a great advantage over Madara, fair enough. He may well have, as there is no evidence for or against that as the fights were never shown. However, it was said that he was ranked number one of all ninjas alive at the time. That must mean that his techniques were quite versitile and points towards him being pretty overpowered.


Just think about this, as Tobirama should be obvious. What is so great about Hashirama? His Bijuu control that is useless in 99% of his fights, his wood?
Talked about above.

[Newkerzy]

IMO, we still have a lot more chances to asses Hashirama's power (through Yamato). Why? because I believe that we will see more about the true potential of Mokuton in the final arcs. I believe that we haven't seen what Mokuton can REALLY do because Yamato can probably only use about 90% of its true potential. I think that Yamato CAN use 100% of its potential, but at the cost of his life. I believe there is a secret technique which is very kick-ass, but if Hashirama used it he would be practically out of chakra (or drastically decreases the chakra level to a dangerous level, but enough to survive) as for Yamato, he would be dead if he used it. I have a feeling Yamato might die fighting alongside Kakashi while fighting Madara to find out Madara's secret & the only way to do it was to pull out all the stops and sacrifice his life like Jiraiya did. (a little overdone, I know but somehow, it seems quite fitting.) I have a feeling Yamato has a feeling of "responsibility" towards Madara. He probably feels that the reason he was alive was this task.

[kkck]

I think all ninja in the manga are to some extent overrated lol. The manga easily gives the impression that there are ninja out there who could easily take out elite ninjas such as kakashi, asuma or sasuke easily when that is far from the truth. For instance, I think raikage would ultimately win against kakashi but that does not mean he will have an easy time. Hell, shinobi battles have so many unexpected turns as they happen anything can happen. Even winning against an enemy does not make you nesesarily stronger than said enemy. Take naruto and konohamaru. Naruto took out kabuto when he was so weak (by the current manga standards) that calling him fodder would have been a monumental overstatement and konohamaru took out one pein body in a surprise attack but we all know normally any pein body would defeat him without breaking a sweat.

[Lightsnake]

I can't believe I didn't see this thread before now, great thread Delbi. Finally we can bring logic to the table in an appropriate thread. First things first, I didn't read all the posts here, nor will I most likely. I read the OP, because that's all I wanted to read, and frankly I've had enough discussions and thoughts around this issue for a long enough time to come to a conlusion that is final.

Are they overrated? Definitely. Now wait before you go "omg lulz I disagree y0 noob!1!!" as the poll is clearly against me and Delbi aswell as possibly others here. On a side note I often hate polls as many seem to just vote for the lulz without actually having a clue about the matter and without reading the needed posts to make a final conclusion. Polls shouldn't be voted in before actually having a decent opinion. So over to my reasoning. I'll take them one at a time.

First Tobirama, he's completely overrated. Now let's keep in mind that he was established early on in part 1, where ninja still used handseals for most jutsu and being such a master with Suiton actually was awesome. So back in part 1 he definitely was Hokage material. However that's almost 400 chapters ago! So I ask you disbelievers, is it still the same manga? If you have any clue, then your answer should without a doubt be "No it isn't." Ninja now don't use handseals, or most of the time don't. Only old school ninja like Danzou and Kakashi use handseals, mostly. Many of the powerful jutsu are now used without handseals, and even if they are used not many handseals are needed. It's NO ONE that use 30 handseals anymore. Everyone that uses handseals only use a few ones and voilá the jutsu comes out. So Tobirama's great feat of only using 1-2 instead of 30 is nothing anymore. Then it's Suiton. That's also no big deal. Kisame is definitely on the same level as Tobirama if not high above in the use of Suiton. And Kisame could even transform into a shark to be a damn predator inside his own water. Tobirama is just a normal Suiton user for what we know. In short Tobirama sucks, and like Delbi said he's by far the weakest Hokage.
Based upon? There's no info on Tobirama. Period. Beyond him being regarded as an incredibly Shinobi and considered, in databook, as one of the most powerful ninja in history. He fought the Uchiha in their heyday alongside his brother...he was also mentioned as the best water manipulator in history.
And weaker than Tsunade? Evidence?



Then the big man, Hashirama. Why is he overrated? Because he defeated Madara. Delbi already adressed it very thoroughly so I'll try to keep it short and without repeating to much of what he said. Nothing is known about this fight. As Delbi said for all we know Hashirama could actually have beaten Madara by using Madara's own pet against him.
Yes, he beat Madara, armed with all the MS Jutsu. And the Kyuubi. And the other abilities of his EMS. We know the battle was so intense it created a valley



And for the record, Hashirama's Bijuu control is a useless power in most fights as he doesn't have any Bijuu to control. He gave away all the other Bijuus, and Madara took Kyuubi. So Hashirama most likely sat in Konoha with a "wtf..?" bubble above his head when Madara stole his trumph card.
Yeah, despite the fact the Kyuubi is Madara's pet...and the detail that it showed the Kyuubi AND Madara attacking a lone Hashirama



Then it's his wood. What's so great about this? Sure it can do about anything and could be seriously annoying for a fighter if he just continously spammed wood all over the place. But other than that it's really not that big a deal.
So your point is "Sure it can be very deadly if he used it, but it's not that good,' Despite the fact we just saw a heavily diluted form of it Deflect Susanoo. Despite we've seen that being able to create wood to hold/bind/impale/crush/block/bludgeon opponents from people who can't use it to nearly the same extent be very effective when such versions are nowhere near the power of Hashirama's.
Start out on the ground? Great, he can summon up Mokuton to crush you off the bat. Or just impale you



As we saw in Sandaime vs Oro/Shodai/Nidaime, Sandaime completely outclassed them all. And that was Sandaime way past his prime without the chakra reserves to fight properly, while evidence points towards Shodaime and Nidaime being at their 100%. Now before any of you try to say that they were weakened bla bla bla without having ANY evidence what so ever to back up the claim,
Despite showing no abilities close to the hype they've been built to? Despite being without any conscious mind, being less than animals as they were acting with no strategy or ability or tactical prowess?


let me say this. This fight was early in the manga. At this time Shodaime and Nidaime were actually strong fighters. But what happened? Way later, about 300 chapters later, Madara was introduced. And who beat him? Hashirama did. Now every fan in existance questioned how the hell Shodaime could do that, and the conclusion was that he must have been weakened against Sandaime because obviously the same Shodaime couldn't have beaten Madara in his fucking prime. Why couldn't he have done so? Because fighters had grown to new levels, and people actually concluded that Sandaime wasn't that strong anymore compared to new villains. This is btw bullshit as Sandaime was and still is a damn beast, but that doesn't belong here.
Well, most of Akatsuki would kind of wreck Sandaime that we saw. He'd be hard pressed against Hidan, who is much faster and needs a single scratch to kill and has similar stats in ninjutsu and taijutsu.
And he beat Madara in his prime, who Onoki thought could've soloed the Kages



Back to topic, well sure that's "logical" thinking. However we know nothing about the fight.
Just that it involved Prime Madara and the Kyuubi.
And Hashirama won.



And let's remember that this is not a manga judged by power levels. This manga is judged by abilities vs abilities, and clearly in some form Hashirama had a great advantage against Madara, the first being that he could probably counter Madara's control over Kyuubi, the rest is unknown. But the fact remains that no evidence point towards Hashirama NOT being at his 100% against Hiruzen,
Lacking one's mind isn't a handicap. Huh. Who knew?


so the fact is that the same Hashirama fought Madara and won unless proven otherwise.
Lacking one's mind isn't a handicap? Who knew?
And counter Madara's control over the Kyuubi. Great. Explain how he survive a second after a teleporting MS user armed with the Kyuubi. Multiple times



The problem that all the disbelievers have, is that Kishi's words contradicts the actual manga material that was published 300 chapters earlier, or seem to do so atleast. But Hashirama, the same that fought Hiruzen did defeat Madara, and yes that is entirely possible as his abilities could easily have been the magic counter for Madara. How however I fail to understand. As prime Madara most likely was stronger than current Sasuke, by far. And honestly I believe that not even Kishi knows how to explain how Hashirama won, hence why he never hinted or showed more of the fight.
so what's more logical? The sliding power scales mean Hashirama is just that strong.



Just think about this, as Tobirama should be obvious. What is so great about Hashirama? His Bijuu control that is useless in 99% of his fights, his wood? What makes him so fucking great that he's the "strongest of all time?" which clearly Kishi disagrees with as Kishi himself said that the current strongest dead shinobi are Hiruzen and Minato. You read that right, no mention of Hashirama. Hiruzen and Minato were clearly stronger shinobi in general.

Really? When his Kishimoto say those were the two strongest dead Shinobi? I have one interview confirmed as fake LONG ago...which kind of kills your credibility on the subject.

[jdw]

I am not sure if Tobirama is/was overrated. We know fairly little about him overall. He may deserve his rating, who knows. As for Hashirama, everything we know about him points to him being a complete beast of a shinobi. Even now, some great many decades later, Madara is lamenting over what Hashirama did to him and still feeling the physical effects as a shadow of his former self.

[Gingitsune]

It seems no one mentioned that Hashirama had a set of swords in the one frame from the fight against Madara. We didn't see those swords in the fight against Hiruzen, so Shodai was stuck to rely only on mokuton and genjutsu. But those swords, and maybe other weapons from his arsenal, could have gave him the edge in a fight. Although, that makes him look like Tenten's predecessor, who is not the idea of powerful shinobi. :amuse

The same goes for Tobirama, he was weaponless against Sandaime, he didn't even had shuriken, maybe he had some ninja tool which was part of his fighting style.

Talking of special weaponry, I wonder what Madara did with is big fan, stuff like Temari? No wait, Temari won against Tenten, how could Madara lost against Hashirama? :p

OK, it's obviously way too late, I need to go get some sleep...
[hr]
No, wait, Temari's style could actually be usuful against Mokuton.

http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/214/18/

:blink

[gnut]

someone metioned the fact of yamato being in the series.he's there to show the first hokage's jutsus but oro said he was one of his experiments that the leaf kept.and i could be wrong,but i think yamato talked up the second hokage for being one of the strongest water users.think they also said he was second only to the first.

[Nicholas.Sama]

I think the main thing that makes the Hokages and all the other ninja in part 1 look bad, is the way Kishi updated the scale his fight scenes.

But he made 1 thing clear. "The current generation ALWAYS surpasses the previous" (http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/342/08/)

They're overrated.

[hibar90]

Yamato mokuton is different from shodaime. Shodaime's more alive, while yamato's seems more manufactured. But we see him grow trees, though not so much. I believe yamato's power is but a fraction compared to shodaime. While yamato is in a box shape, shodaime can make it into any shape. In term of offensive ability and binding, shodaime surpasses yamato. He also beat both madara and kyuubi. Pain was used (mutually perhaps) by the same person. Shodaime was a shinobi of such caliber, he's not overrated.

Tobirama is indeed the weakest of all hokages (apart from tsunade). But, his suiton ability is the best we've seen so far. Kisame suiton ability from thin air lacks variety. What he does is vomit a huge amount of them to use it as a water source. But the jutsu itself is harmless to shinobi (say that to the people that got hit by tsunami lol). But nidaime can use high level water jutsu from nothing (suijinheki, water dragon missile). If kisame vs nidaime happen, my money is on nidaime for sure. Those water from kisame probably get manipulated by nidaime, someone that make 67 hand seal into 1. Talk about speed. He will always get the first shot advantage. He's still a high tier shinobi. Personally I never overestimate him. He is between kisame and raikage. He could be above raikage and sasuke but I really don't think so.

[En Yang Ji]

I think Tobirama is around Harishama's level. He has "superior combat ability" and is the best suiton user. Most importantly, Tobirama has Edo Tensei. That brings his combat ability up significantly.

I can't say whether harishima is overrated or not, but I definitely think Tobirama is worthy of is hype.

[Googlez_kun]

I think it's good that Tobirama is not that strong.It somehow makes him look more influentive,just like Danzou.Tobirama seems to be the dark sheep under the Hokage.With the ability to use Edo Tensei and having banned Uchiha into a corner of the village,he seems to be deep down in the dark roots of Konoha,unlike the other Kage who rather resemble the sunbathing leaf.

I hope Kishimoto will show us more of him,because he seems to be out of ordinary.He might not be as strong as Hashirama,but that does not mean he is less interesting.

[juUnior]

hehe, and to believe that some time ago I was just "Tobirama is the weakest kage".. and Kishi gives info that Tobirama invented ET and could use it :p Actually like that, now kages seem more equall to each other.

[AlB]

I have yet to see a character(who ain't fodders) who isn't overrated. Every character is overrated by his/her fan base, it a reader nature. So, yes they are overrated. But I don't think their overrated-ness is anymore than seen for every other strong characters.

so... a guy who beat Madara (in his prime) and kyuubi simultaneously and the guy who created f*cking Edo Tensei and can cast a jutsu usually requiring 27 handseals with just a couple of handseals are... overrated?... :notrust

[nianiote]

Now we know that Tobirama is definitely NOT overrated

[RezzieThaRapper]

Since it's friday, two day's after spoilers, I can say this...

apparently the 2nd has Space/Time jutsu on the level on 4th (Link (http://mangastream.com/read/naruto/18388702/12))
[hr]
last panel by the way...

[hibar90]

Since it's friday, two day's after spoilers, I can say this...

apparently the 2nd has Space/Time jutsu on the level on 4th (Link (http://mangastream.com/read/naruto/18388702/12))
<hr noshade size="1">
last panel by the way...

I know! He just sling shot all the way in my top shinobi list. He's like Oro + Kisame + Minato.

[GyoMasta]

It just seem liek Nidaime had another type of space/time jutsu, not necessarily on Yondaime,s elvel.

And reading that that nidaime had great space/time ninjutsu just amde me think that kishi just made that to bring something to Tobirama's story and abilities since not that much was lnown about him and that he looked the less impressive of the 4 first Hokage.