Shikamaru vs. Sasuke

[LnDRash]

Shikamaru knows all of Sasuke's Techniques he used up until now and he had 24 hours to plan this fight.

Sasuke on the other hand was just told by Madara that it was actuallly Shikamaru behind the Uchiha Clan Massacre. He is fully recovered from his current fights but in the battle with Danzou his Plot Protection Shield was damaged, so he can't use it in this battle.

Who wins ? xD

[kingplaya(minato)]

At first i was like WTF!... Sasuke would rape him... But now, hmm... 24 hours for shikamaru to prepare?... If u had thrown in just 1 more person then shikamaru would surely win cuz i feel he needs some1 to actually land the hits on sasuke but i'm still giving shikamaru a good chance cuz that guy's iq puts michael scoffield 2 shame!

[LnDRash]

Yeah, its quite hard to say who would win, because Sasuke has Jutsus like Amaterasu which would be pretty dangerous for Shikamaru... but smart as he is, I think he would come up with some counter to defend against it or render it useless :P

And yes, Shikamaru is better if he has someone supporting him, but lets not forget, his Kagemane no Jutsu is pretty deadly if he's not fighting some Immortal Hidan which dosn't give a fuck if he's impaled by multiple shadows. But most propably Shika would lure the overconfident and arrogant Sasuke in some kind of trap he prepared, just like he did with Hidan :O

[lan2cp]

Well it depends, does susanoo have a shadow?

[jebebs]

Sasuke has this, amaterasu as an opening move and it's all over, and if he doesnt use amaterasu and gets caught in a shadow he'd be able to break it like he broke Danzou's seal with Susano.

also, Shikamaru killing the Uchiha's made me giggle a bit xD

[Franckie]

Sasuke defeats Shikamaru with his hatred.

[LnDRash]

Can hatred realy be stronger then calm rational thinking ? :O

I dunno... hatred may give you power, but it also makes you fight headlessly, which would be the worst you could do against someone as smart as shikamaru :)

Like: SHIKAMARU, YOU ARE NOT GETTING AWAY !!111 * charge after him* wtf explosion tags !? ... BOOM !

[ninjabot]

Most one-sided match Sasuke's ever had on this forum. Kage Mane traps him? Susanoo crushes Shikamaru. Susanoo can't be controlled by Shikamaru because he can't hold on to something far stronger than himself (CS2 Tayuya was breaking free of Kage Mane slowly but surely). Sasuke'd just snap free in a second based on Susanoo's shear power.

Set up bombs everywhere? Sharingan would pick them up if they were laced with chakra. Even if they blow up before he notices them, they won't explode as fast as Sasuke can summon Susanoo to protect himself. Shikamaru can't win this fight on his own, and prep time doesn't mean anything unless he can increase his movement speed, Taijutsu, stamina, and stopping power in that 24 hours.

Shikamaru loses.

[Gats]

Sasuke doesn't know Shikamaru, he never saw him fighting during the Chuunin exam, he doesn't have a clue about what he did during the first "save Sasuke arc" and during the fight against Akatsuki...Sasuke doesn't know a thing about him, he would just probably know that Shikamaru is a lazy guy good for nothing (because he was sleeping in the ninja academy etc).

So, first, Sasuke would look down at him so much that he would be probably hurt badly by surprise by a Shikamaru who knows everything about him and had prepared his plan during 24h.

Underestimating a ninja is quite dangerous (Sasuke did with kage level ninjas), underestimating a 200+ IQ ninja who set everything is...well...very dangerous.

[LnDRash]

@ninjabot

The problem here is we are not as smart as Shikamaru, so we cant realy predict what he would come up with :P

We think about simple traps like explosion traps etc. but thats not nearly all Shikamaru could use as traps. Every Jutsu has its weakness, Susanoo is quite obvious since it drains the users lifeforce rapidly, Amaterasu needs the user to see the target. So i gues Shikamaru would play on time and assault Sasuke without showing himself, like he did against Tayuya.

Dunno... I think you are underestimating Shikamaru a bit if you give him absolutely no chances. :)

[TeAm#7FoReVer]

I really like Shikamaru but Sasuke takes this. What can Shikamaru do against one of the most well around and one of fastest ninja in Naruto? Sasuke has Susanoo, Amaterasu, Enton, kirin, chidori and katon. Even if Sasuke is caught by Kage Mane, he just needs a partial Susanoo, he takes Shikamaru like this (http://mangastream.com/read/naruto/476-14/9) and kill him in this way (http://mangastream.com/read/naruto/476-14/20) and done.

Shikamaru needs more than his intelligence to defeat Sasuke.

[LnDRash]

Hm.. what he could do... Sasuke's main source of power are his eyes... so how about using something like tear gas, flash bombs etc. ?^^

Also, Shikamaru wouldn't be so stupid to use his Kagemane on Sasuke from short distance. Remember... in this fight he knows about Susanoo so he wouldn't do such a thing like Danzou.

Gatsuga also brought up a good point, sasuke would realy underestimate Shikamaru and he wouldn't go all out right from the start, since his MS Techniques damage his eyes he would think, yeah... this guy sucks anyway, chidori is more then enough... and surprise comes :D

[Gats]

I really like Shikamaru but Sasuke takes this. What can Shikamaru do against one of the most well around and one of fastest ninja in Naruto? Sasuke has Susanoo, Amaterasu, Enton, kirin, chidori and katon. Even if Sasuke is caught by Kage Mane, he just needs a partial Susanoo, he takes Shikamaru like this (http://mangastream.com/read/naruto/476-14/9) and kill him in this way (http://mangastream.com/read/naruto/476-14/20) and done.

Shikamaru needs more than his intelligence to defeat Sasuke.

You are guessing that Sasuke will use since the beginning his MS powers and Susano'o to deal with a ninja of the "level" of Shikamaru ?

I don't think that Shikamaru would win in the end but he is not stupid enough to just fight Sasuke in god mode. If he is here to fight, it means that he already has a strategy that might succeed, otherwise he would just be away. And when Susano'o is appearing, Shika doesn't have to stay on the battlefield but retreat and pushing Sasuke to use his stamina in Susano'o for example.

[THM Nindo]

If Shikamaru is alone, he would lose.

I have no doubt that Shikamaru would be able to catch Sasuke in his shadow bind jutsu, but unfortunately, it was shown to be breakable with sheer will/power.

Sasuke would be able to break out of it (just like he broke out of Danzou's seal) with Susanoo.
Also, even if he's immobilized, he can still use his eyes (Amaterasu), which are his main weapons.

Give Shikamaru more people with him, and then they might have a slight chance of winning (give him the whole Genin11 crew, except Naruto! :tem)

[Gats]

Stop always thinking with jutsu vs jutsu or power, stop being an Uchiha !

I'm sure that Shikamaru can find a way to purge Sasuke's stamina, by taunting him etc Susano'o has a big side effect, if Shikamaru knows this, he can do something, you don't need just more power or jutsu. Human factor is very important.

[LnDRash]

Give Shikamaru more people with him, and then they might have a slight chance of winning (give him the whole Genin11 crew, except Naruto! :tem)

Hm nah... i don't like the idea of just zerging him down with so many people :P

But if you realy want an ally for him, how about Temari ? She is quite smart herself, has long range attacks and they make such a nice couple xD

[jdw]

Shikamaru dies in 45 seconds or so. Even if he manages to catch Sasuke with a shadow bind, all Sasuke has to do is activate Susanoo (which apparently undoes jutsu placed on Sasuke (http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/478/08-09/)). Once Sasuke, the hate filled genius of the sharingan, is free, Shika won't even have time to let his life flash before his eyes.

[LnDRash]

Even if he manages to catch Sasuke with a shadow bind, all Sasuke has to do is activate Susanoo which apparently undoes jutsu placed on Sasuke.

But Shikamaru is smart enough to know this will happen, so what makes you think he will approach him this way ? :O

[jdw]

But Shikamaru is smart enough to know this will happen, so what makes you think he will approach him this way ? :O

Shika has to do things within the range of skills he has. Sasuke has to do things within the range of skills he has. Shikamaru's jutsu is really shadowplay when you get to the bottom of it, and nothing more. He can set up nifty little traps, exploding tags but that is no guarantee of success against Sasuke. Shika has one of the best minds in the manga, but no strength to back it up. That is why he was given the shittiest Akatsuki to beat because it was likely the only believable one. Sasuke is smart (most of the time) and supremely talented. Enough to overcomes Shika's superior mind, imo.

[LnDRash]

@jdw

This is true, if you think that Shikamaru has to beat Sasuke with his Jutsu or some explosion traps. However, lets take the following scenario for example (and please keep in mind that I'am no tactician nor do I have an 200+ IQ xD):

Shikamaru comes with a very reflective shield to the battle. He would use this shield to block himself from Sasuke's sight and to avoid Amatersu at least for the start of the battle and to reflect sunlight to blind Sasuke. So Sasuke would charge at Shikamaru to get him into close combat and use Chidori. Now Shikamaru throws a tear gas bomb on the ground and he gets Sasuke by surprise, which gives him time to retreat a bit and catch him into Kagemane no Jutsu.

He will provoke Sasuke by mocking him about Itachi or something and Sasuke will get realy mad and use Susanoo to break the Kagemane no Jutsu. Shikamaru runs away and Sasuke goes after him, only to find himself in a forest full of traps which are especially picked to give him a hard time. Shikamaru costantly ambushes him with ranged attacks without showing himself and Sasuke has to use Susanoo to defend himself, but it constantly drains his lifeforce and Shikamaru plays on time.

Now the real fight begins and Sasuke has to find some way to reverse the situation... so i wouldn't say Shikamaru cant be at least a real pain in the ass for sasuke :P

[jdw]

@jdw

This is true, if you think that Shikamaru has to beat Sasuke with his Jutsu or some explosion traps, but lets take this scenario for example (and please keep in mind that I'am no tactician nor do I have an 200+ IQ xD):

Shikamaru comes with a very reflective shield to the battle. He would use this shield to block himself from Sasuke's sight and to avoid Amatersu at least for the start of the battle and to reflect sunlight to blind Sasuke. So Sasuke would charge at Shikamaru to get him into close combat and use Chidori. Now Shikamaru throws a tear gas bomb on the ground and he gets Sasuke by surprise, which gives him time to retreat a bit and catch him into Kagemane no Jutsu.

He will provoke Sasuke by mocking him about Itachi or something and Sasuke will get realy mad und use Susanoo to break the Kagemane no Jutsu. Shikamaru runs away and Sasuke goes after him, only to find himself in a forest full of traps which are especially picked to give him a hard time. Shikamaru costantly ambushes him with ranged attacks without showing himself and Sasuke has to use Susanoo to defend himself, but it constantly drains his lifeforce and Shikamaru plays on time.

Now the real fight begins and Sasuke has to find some way to reverse the situation... so i wouldn't say Shikamaru cant be at least a real pain in the ass for sasuke :P

That's the things, we are forced to use the 24-hour time period to invent weapons and stuff for Shika. Given everything we have seen him do, the current jutsu/equipment of Shikamaru is not enough. If we can invent weapons for Shika, then Sasuke should never be able to win because we can creatively counter anything he is capable of.

If we just give Shika his own skills and the skills of another, or a partner, the fight will take on a more manageable form, imo.

[LnDRash]

Well, a shiny metal shield which works as a mirror for example souldn't be something that is realy hard to get in a ninja world. :)

In his fight against Hidan and Kakuzu he also got this blood ampules and Asumas chakra absorbing blades. I'am sure that wasnt his equipment right from the start, so getting some shiny piece of metal shouldn't be to far off the scale :P

Also it was only an example, Shika would think of something much more simple and better anyway *gg*

[SuperSaiyaMan]

People are forgetting that Shikamaru has 24 hours to prepare and has all the knowledge on Sasuke's jutsus and MS techs. This is going to end up like every fight Batman has used prep against Superpowered opponents. He wins. Thus Konoha's own Batman, Shikamaru, finds a way to win.

[ninjabot]

If we're gonna make up armaments for Shikamaru, why not just give him a Rinnegan he found in a lab somewhere, a clone of the Kyuubi, and access to reverse Kuchiyose to call in a medical nin anytime he needs to be healed from one of Sasuke's attacks? You're making things intentionally vague to give the illusion that Shikamaru could defeat him in a one on one fight.

And even with all of that, the thing about prep-time is you can't very well prepare for EVERYTHING. For example, let's say Shikamaru learns from his peers that Sasuke loses control when emotional. Shikamaru makes the plan to lure him into the forest like you said...only to find that Sasuke doesn't feel like stabbing people today, he feels like burning an entire forest into ashes.

So he just looks at the forest, casts Amaterasu, and waits. Did Shikamaru plan for that too? Did he coat the trees in flame retardant goo before leaving? Or let's say Shikamaru does use this reflective shield to blind Sasuke. Would he be fast enough to blind the giant Hawk attacking him from above while Sasuke runs in to strike him?


Shikamaru dies in 45 seconds or so. Even if he manages to catch Sasuke with a shadow bind, all Sasuke has to do is activate Susanoo (which apparently undoes jutsu placed on Sasuke). Once Sasuke, the hate filled genius of the sharingan, is free, Shika won't even have time to let his life flash before his eyes.


To me it seemed more like he "broke" out of that seal rather than canceling the jutsu. Liken it to a dog breaking their leash from pulling to hard. The jutsu was probably only strong enough to hold the average human, meaning once his power amped up to the level required to use Susanoo, it simply wasn't strong enough to hold him.

[LnDRash]

If we're gonna make up armaments for Shikamaru, why not just give him a Rinnegan he found in a lab somewhere, a clone of the Kyuubi, and access to reverse Kuchiyose to call in a medical nin anytime he needs to be healed from one of Sasuke's attacks? You're making things intentionally vague to give the illusion that Shikamaru could defeat him in a one on one fight.


Yeah sure... because all the stuff you mention is realy realistic compared to some stupid piece of polished metal which propably lies around on some scrap yard where Kakashi's dogs live.

Come on, it was just an example of what he could maybe do. If he has 24 hours to prepare, a guy like him who always carries around some stuff like explosion tags, flash bombs, kunais etc. will surely bring something with him to get an advantage. Heck... he brought a scroll with water sealed in it to the fight with Hidan and Kakuzu, why would he even do that if he didnt know Kakuzu could use Raiton ?

Shika is just the kind of Guy that always carries around some stuff which he belives could come in handy in some situation. So him using some kind of mirror in a fight he had time to prepare for isnt so far off.


So he just looks at the forest, casts Amaterasu, and waits. Did Shikamaru plan for that too? Did he coat the trees in flame retardant goo before leaving? Or let's say Shikamaru does use this reflective shield to blind Sasuke. Would he be fast enough to blind the giant Hawk attacking him from above while Sasuke runs in to strike him?

If he uses Amaterasu to burn an entire forest while using Susanno he will waste so much chakra that Shikamaru would have nothing left to do but pick him up after he colapses out of exhaustion.

[ninjabot]

Yeah sure... because all the stuff you mention is realy realistic compared to some stupid piece of polished metal which propably lies around on some scrap yard where Kakashi's dogs live.


It was sarcasm. I was revealing how making your "proof" that Shikamaru can win so vague gives anyone the chance to make up anything without providing evidence. There isn't the slightest bit of canon manga evidence you can show me that would make anyone in here (sans Sasuke haters) believe Sasuke would be outsmarted to the point that his greater speed, fighting skills, or overwhelming power would be made useless. Thus, you have no argument, as mean as that sounds. Sorry.



Heck... he brought a scroll with water sealed in it to the fight with Hidan and Kakuzu, why would he even do that if he didnt know Kakuzu could use Raiton ?


Okay, now I see the problem, as well as where this overconfidence in Shikamaru's resourcefulness is coming from. That was filler on the anime when he had those scrolls. That didn't happen in the manga. I suggest rereading any fight with Shikamaru in it to get a guage of his true effectiveness in battle.

Nowhere in the manga will you see Shikamaru pull out an assload of tools to kill off an enemy that he hasn't already figured out the weakness of. Those explosive tags were brought along as an answer to Hidan's immortality. The scrolls from the anime never happened, and as far as the manga goes Shikamaru has no access to elemental jutsu. And Shikamaru doesn't have a tool that makes him fast enough to dodge Sasuke's attacks, hasn't shown capacity to use Kawarimi or escape Genjutsu of an S-rank level...Shikamaru winning just isn't a believable outcome.


If he uses Amaterasu to burn an entire forest while using Susanno he will waste so much chakra that Shikamaru would have nothing left to do but pick him up after he colapses out of exhaustion.


You're assuming he's gonna cast the jutsu multiple times. He just need's to set a large tree aflame, and the wind will take care of the rest. Don't you remember what happened to the forest when Sasuke fought Itachi?

Also, for whoever it was that said Sasuke would underestimate Shikamaru, you forget that in this fight, Sasuke was told that Shikamaru killed the Uchiha (LMFAO!) so he would automatically be in "pull out all the stops" mode. No underestimating him. Just killing him. Quickly.

[hakuthehedgehog]

Shikamaru whould surround himself with an open scroll to seal amaterasu, lure Sasuke in the woods, face him far away and put some light bombs near some strategically position and use kagemane while he's sucking amaterasu and the bombs explode.
As soon as Kagemane hits, he will impale Sasuke, killing him and he can't use Susano'o because he has his eyes closed. GG

P.S: I'm not smart and I though of this in 10 minutes, imagine Shikamaru who is a genius and has 24 hours.

[ninjaman]

Stop always thinking with jutsu vs jutsu or power, stop being an Uchiha !

I'm sure that Shikamaru can find a way to purge Sasuke's stamina, by taunting him etc Susano'o has a big side effect, if Shikamaru knows this, he can do something, you don't need just more power or jutsu. Human factor is very important.

whatever side effect you referring to does not apply to sasuke. He already spamming susano'o like its nothing.

[TeAm#7FoReVer]

You are guessing that Sasuke will use since the beginning his MS powers and Susano'o to deal with a ninja of the "level" of Shikamaru ?

I don't think that Shikamaru would win in the end but he is not stupid enough to just fight Sasuke in god mode. If he is here to fight, it means that he already has a strategy that might succeed, otherwise he would just be away. And when Susano'o is appearing, Shika doesn't have to stay on the battlefield but retreat and pushing Sasuke to use his stamina in Susano'o for example.

I really dont know the ¨level¨of Shikamaru very well , but I know Sasuke is another different level, you can see it in his recent battles. I do not know if Sasuke would use MS with Shikamaru, but according to the specifications pointed out in the first post:


Shikamaru knows all of Sasuke's Techniques he used up until now and he had 24 hours to plan this fight.

Sasuke on the other hand was just told by Madara that it was actuallly Shikamaru behind the Uchiha Clan Massacre. He is fully recovered from his current fights but in the battle with Danzou his Plot Protection Shield was damaged, so he can't use it in this battle.

Who wins ? xD

Sasuke would never understimate Shikamaru and he would have the reason to use MS. However, if we rethink Sasuke can fight with only Sharingan. His better battles (Deidara, Itachi) IMO has been without MS.

Of course Shikamaru is not stupid, I have never underestimate his intelligence but Sasuke is not stupid neither. You can see it in the fight he had with Deidara , Itachi, and recently Danzou, he analyzes the counter´s jutsu and makes plan during the battle.

About Susanoo, chakra is not a problem for Sasuke already. He managed to keep with a full Susanoo like for 9 minutes (in a incomplete Susanoo I think he would endure more time, I guess), I dont see Shikamaru retreating for that time. Furthermore, Susanoo is really big for Shika, how could he be able to dodge the arrows? Danzou has had problems with those things.


Hm.. what he could do... Sasuke's main source of power are his eyes... so how about using something like tear gas, flash bombs etc. ?^^

It could work, but Sasuke could escape from the attack. We should not forget he is fast.

Also, Shikamaru wouldn't be so stupid to use his Kagemane on Sasuke from short distance. Remember... in this fight he knows about Susanoo so he wouldn't do such a thing like Danzou.

As I said above Shikamaru is not stupid, neither Sasuke. Shikamaru knows about Susanoo, but he doesnt know how Sasuke fights with Susanoo. He can change the size of Susanoo and manipulate it at his will.

Gatsuga also brought up a good point, sasuke would realy underestimate Shikamaru and he wouldn't go all out right from the start, since his MS Techniques damage his eyes he would think, yeah... this guy sucks anyway, chidori is more then enough... and surprise comes :D

Maybe, knowing Sasuke he could say that and acting almighty at the beginning of the fight but as the fight progresses Sasuke can get serious and if you write that Madara said to him that Shikamaru was behind of the Uchiha Massacre I dont see Sasuke taking Shikamaru so lightly. Look at Danzou, the first time he killed him.

[Silvers Rayleigh]

give Shikamaru,
sakura and sai
then he will win.

[LnDRash]

It was sarcasm.

I know it was sarcasm, but it was realy not necessary.


Okay, now I see the problem, as well as where this overconfidence in Shikamaru's resourcefulness is coming from. That was filler on the anime when he had those scrolls.

Ok, you are right on this one somehow I had the impression that it was in the Manga to, but its not. However...


Nowhere in the manga will you see Shikamaru pull out an assload of tools to kill off an enemy that he hasn't already figured out the weakness of. Those explosive tags were brought along as an answer to Hidan's immortality.

in this fight he knows about all of Sasuke's Jutsu, so he will definitely find out his weaknesses and come prepared, just like with the explosion tags for Hidan.


You're assuming he's gonna cast the jutsu multiple times. He just need's to set a large tree aflame, and the wind will take care of the rest. Don't you remember what happened to the forest when Sasuke fought Itachi?

Yes, I remember that. But if he sets only some tree's on fire it would take time before the fire spreads about the whole area. However, time is something that works against Sasuke if he has to use Susanno... and in my example he had to.


Also, for whoever it was that said Sasuke would underestimate Shikamaru, you forget that in this fight, Sasuke was told that Shikamaru killed the Uchiha (LMFAO!) so he would automatically be in "pull out all the stops" mode. No underestimating him. Just killing him. Quickly.

Well, ok... you may have a point there xD

I made this scenario to give Sasuke some fuel for the fight in a comedic way. But I didn't consider the role Shikamaru was given by Madara as the killer, but more like "He was the one who told me and Itachi to do this !!! We are inocent !!" xD

So there is still the posibility he could underastimate him^^
[hr]

give Shikamaru sakura and sai
then he will win.

Ok... I can definitely see why Sai could be useful... But Saskura ?! xD

What the hell would she do ? Yeah, I know she is strong but she has no ranged skills at all. Even if she would be able to punch through Susanoo like Raikage did she would end up being smashed, burned, impaled or whatever :P

Her Medical Ninjutsu would also be useless, because she cant put out Amaterasu and the Attacks from Susanoo would leave nothing there to heal. :darn

[ninjabot]

Shikamaru whould surround himself with an open scroll to seal amaterasu, lure Sasuke in the woods, face him far away and put some light bombs near some strategically position and use kagemane while he's sucking amaterasu and the bombs explode.
As soon as Kagemane hits, he will impale Sasuke, killing him and he can't use Susano'o because he has his eyes closed. GG


Where the heck did Shikamaru learn Fuuinjutsu in ONE FRIGGIN' DAY!?! Also, the only person who's shown the ability to seal Amaterasu in a scroll was Jiraiya. Who happens to be dead. See what I mean about making things up without relying on the manga for proof?


P.S: I'm not smart and I though of this in 10 minutes, imagine Shikamaru who is a genius and has 24 hours.

And all you had to do was ignore the laws of the Naruto manga to do it. Having Shikamaru learn how to seal Amaterasu, despite the only person shown to do so being dead. Having him learn a new Fuuinjutsu in just 24 hours, despite him only showing the ability to use Kage Mane, and no other jutsu besides it. SOMEHOW having Shikamaru able to outrun Sasuke to lead him to the bombs, yet not explaining how.


Yes, I remember that. But if he sets only some tree's on fire it would take time before the fire spreads about the whole area. However, time is something that works against Sasuke if he has to use Susanno... and in my example he had to.

Not really. Sasuke doesn't need Susanoo until he wants to crush someone or protect himself. He turned it off several times against Danzou, only bringing it back out when in dire circumstances. The only times he would have it out in this fight is when bombs are exploding around him, or Shikamaru manages to taunt him into getting really, really angry. And even then, just like agaisnt Danzou, he'll let the jutsu loose when necessary and resort to something else.

Though, I forgot one important thing: those explosive tags are triggered when fire touches them. As the forest burns slowly and Shikamaru's set up bombs start going off around them, who's going to get hurt more, the guy with the impenetrable spiritual golem, or the guy in the flack jacket? Shikamaru would have to restart his entire strategy once all his bombs are blown prematurely.

[jdw]

Even if Sasuke gets caught up in a bunch of bombs by Shika, Sasuke will just summon a large dirty bird, hop in his mouth, let the bird take the blast as they Kuchiyose away. The bird will die, Sasuke will live. The fight will continue.
http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/363/02/
http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/363/13/

[LittleMissNemesis]

Huh- this is an interesting fight.
Sasuke would win, but Shikamaru would last longer than some non-freak-powered shinobi.

Shikamaru would probably be ready with some traps that could stop or deflect some of Sasuke's jutsu and/or allow him to finagle his way out of getting caught for a little while. You've also gotta figure that he'd be avoiding eye contact and trying to work a plan that would potentially take out Sasuke's eyes (LOL). I could see Shikamaru planning some way to out-maneuver amaterasu and trying to tire Sasuke out and maybe almost getting an attack in himself. Unfortunately, offensively, Shikamaru has very little to offer and though he's a genius, Sasuke's extremely intelligent (er... most of the time) and a clever fighter too. Sasuke would want to ask Shikamaru about his involvement in the massacre, which would spare Shika from automatic death and might give him a little bit of a window to work with. Though Shikamaru would show well for someone of his level against Sasuke, he would be toast... maybe literally.

[LnDRash]

He's not allowed to kill birdie... Suigetsu allready lectured him on that !

Hm... just thought of something. What would happen if Susanoo gets cought into Amaterasu ? I mean, they said somewhere Amaterasu burns everyting, even other fire, so it definitly can burn non solid objects.

Shikamaru plans so far ahead, he realy could have thought about the posibility that Sasuke sets the whole forest under fire if he cant find him and is constantly ambushed with some kind of ranged attacks. Then Shikamaru would take some piece of lumber, set it on (Amaterasu)fire and throw it at Susanoo xD

Susanoo starts burning and Sasuke is either forced to put out the Amaterasu (which seems to be a real strain on him) or to dispell Susanoo. If he choses to dispell Susanno, he would propably get cought in Kagemane no Jutsu and would be impaled by the shadows. If he just puts out Amaterasu, Shikamara has plenty of it all around the place, so he could set Susanoo again on fire in the moment Sasuke managed to put it out, in other words, just waste tons of chakra.

Possible theorie oder nonsense ? xD

[hakuthehedgehog]

@ Ninjabot, thw knowleage on how to make the scroll could be given by Jiraya to the Konoha, and then Shikamaru could learn how to make the scroll.
But you're on the fact that Shikamaru doesn't know how to activate the scroll ( I though it could be automatic or not requiring great skill to activate it)
In regards to Shikamaru outrunning Sasuke: he could be hidden in the woods from the start or even use multiple smoke bombs to lure him.
One thing is certain: light bombs and lacrimogenic smoke bombs are the way to go.
[hr]

He's not allowed to kill birdie... Suigetsu allready lectured him on that !

Hm... just thought of something. What would happen if Susanoo gets cought into Amaterasu ? I mean, they said somewhere Amaterasu burns everyting, even other fire, so it definitly can burn non solid objects.

Shikamaru plans so far ahead, he realy could have thought about the posibility that Sasuke sets the whole forest under fire if he cant find him and is constantly ambushed with some kind of range attacks. Then Shikamaru would take some piece of lumber, set it on (Amaterasu)fire and throw it at Susanoo xD

Susanoo starts burning and Sasuke is either forced to put out the Amaterasu (which seems to be a real strain on him) or to dispell Susanoo. If he choses to dispell Susanno, he would propably get cought in Kagemane no Jutsu and would be impaled by the shadows. If he just puts out Amaterasu, Shikamara has plenty of it all around the place, so he could set Susanoo again on fire in the moment Sasuke managed to put it out, in other words, just waste tons of chakra.

Possible theorie oder nonsense ? xD


I guess he only needs to use Enton to stop the flames or take them out of Susano'o, like he did with Raikage.

[jdw]

He's not allowed to kill birdie... Suigetsu allready lectured him on that !

Hm... just thought of something. What would happen if Susanoo gets cought into Amaterasu ? I mean, they said somewhere Amaterasu burns everyting, even other fire, so it definitly can burn non solid objects.

Amaterasu did no observable harm to a weakened form of Susanoo: http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/463/15/
http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/464/02/

[LnDRash]

Hmmm... when he put out the flames on Karin and Hachibi it gave him definitely a serious headache :O

[ninjabot]

Hm... just thought of something. What would happen if Susanoo gets cought into Amaterasu ? I mean, they said somewhere Amaterasu burns everyting, even other fire, so it definitly can burn non solid objects.


Sasuke's already laced his Susanoo with Amaterasu. That's how Raikage got his arm coated in Amaterasu when he karate chopped through Susanoo.


http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/463/15/


EDIT: Nevermind, jdw beat me to it.

[Prince Sasuke]

The only way shikamaru win this battle is by attacking Sasuke in his sleep.....or he is giving the powers of the six paths of Pain lol.

[Delbi]

Sasuke uses Ameratsu, Shikamaru burns to death, fights over. Any more questions?

Seriously, Shikamaru lacks the speed and type of defenses neccessary to deal with Sasuke by himself, this fight is a joke.

[LnDRash]

So, I gues throwing some sleeping gas bombs at him would be the way to go ? xD

@the incomplete Susanoo covered in Amaterasu:

Hm yeah, I remember this... but in my mind there was simply a circle of Amaterasu surrounding Sasuke, not the ribs on fire. But whats strange about this: How can Raikage punch Sasuke through those burning ribs without seting Sasukes neck on fire ? :O

Is Sasuke immune to his own Amaterasu or what ? x_X

[Delbi]

Also, smoke bombs and light bombs don't stop Sasuke's Sharigan from seeing Shikamaru's chakra, so they'd be utterly useless. Sasuke was able to see bombs hidden under solid earth, smoke bombs won't do shit.

If Shikamaru knew the Hidden Mist Jutsu, that would be another story. But sadly, he does not.
[hr]

So, I gues throwing some sleeping gas bombs at him would be the way to go ? xD

@the incomplete Susanoo covered in Amaterasu:

Hm yeah, I remember this... but in my mind there was simply a circle of Amaterasu surrounding Sasuke, not the ribs on fire. But whats strange about this: How can Raikage punch Sasuke through those burning ribs without seting Sasukes neck on fire ? :O

Is Sasuke immune to his own Amaterasu or what ? x_X

It's likely the Ameratsu was never touching Sussano, so since there was no contact, nothing could burn.

[kingplaya(minato)]

If shikamaru could borrow lee 4 this fight then i'm certain he would win but seeing as he doesn't have great offensive capabilities then sasuke would win.... But with alot of stress on his body as shikimaru is sure 2 give him a run 4 his money when he has 24 hours 2 prepare...

[3c]

This fight is a joke. Shikamaru would die the moment Sasuke laid eyes on him.

The only thing Shikamaru can do is do a suprise attack from behind, and it's no way he would be able to land a hit. Even if he did Sasuke would not die from a suprise attack from Shikamaru by his only really "lethal" technique which is the shadow needle technique or whatever it's called, and even that one really isn't lethal. If Shikamaru hit him Sasuke would just pop Susano'o > Hulk smash > Pile of blood = Shikamaru.

[LnDRash]

Also, smoke bombs and light bombs don't stop Sasuke's Sharigan from seeing Shikamaru's chakra, so they'd be utterly useless. Sasuke was able to see bombs hidden under solid earth, smoke bombs won't do shit.

Agree on Smokebombs being useless, but I see no reason why tear gas or flash bombs should be useless since they attack Sasuke's vision directly: he is forced to close his eyes.

Deidaras Bombs are also special, since they are made of chakra infused clay, that was the reason why he could see them. I doubt a bomb like Tentens radiates chakra.

[Delbi]

Agree on Smokebombs being useless, but I see no reason why tear gas or flash bombs should be useless since they attack Sasuke's vision directly: he is forced to close his eyes.

Deidaras Bombs are also special, since they are made of chakra infused clay, that was the reason why he could see them. I doubt a bomb like Tentens radiates chakra.

Even if Sasuke's eyes are blinded by light, there ability to see chakra isn't blinded (I think). So all Sasuke would have to do is look into the light or gas and he would see Shikamaru's chakra signature.

Even still, Sasuke can just errect Sussano and protect himself from anything Shika throws at him, and then shit on him in the next few seconds.

Again, Shikamaru doesn't have anything that would give Sasuke any trouble, Sasuke is better than him in every single way possible aside from intelligence, and Sasuke is no dop as he proved in the last chapter.

[kkck]

I used to think giving shikamaru decent planning time would allow him to have a chance but I changed my mind about that. Give shikamaru 1000000 dollars and 1 week of planning and he still does not have a chance against MS. Sasuke can literally stare him to death. Shikamaru outright does not have what it takes to dodge amaterasu, escape tsukioyomi or even look at susanoo without peeing his pants. Seriously, how in the world could he possibly dodge the arrow or get past susanoo? Sasuke is simply in another league now. Even without MS odds are sasuke would have an easy time against shikamaru + the week and a million bucks.

[TeAm#7FoReVer]

The only way shikamaru win this battle is by attacking Sasuke in his sleep.....or he is giving the powers of the six paths of Pain lol.


Maybe not, look what happened with Sai when he woke up Sasuke (http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/306/03/). He only will be angrier.

Talking seriously. The only way I can see Shikamaru fighting or maybe defeating Sasuke is with a team. Good options will be Neji and Lee or Gai only.

[Gats]

I guess it would be more interesting to change this subject or to create another one into "Shikamaru vs Sasuke" => Shikamaru has 24h to create a plan, he has to pick up a team of 3 ninjas from the 11 rookies. What would be his team in order to win ?

[jdw]

I guess it would be more interesting to change this subject or to create another one into "Shikamaru vs Sasuke" => Shikamaru has 24h to create a plan, he has to pick up a team of 3 ninjas from the 11 rookies. What would be his team in order to win ?

1. Lee
2. Neji

maybe

3. Shino

With this team, they have a shot. It would still be tough but at least interesting.

[ninjabot]

I don't see how that'd help at all. Sasuke was already outnumbered with his premature Susanoo and there was nothing his opponents could do to stop them. Hell, it was 3 jounin and a Kage who all jumped him with their jutsu too.

Why would the rookies do any better? They wouldn't:

Ino: Shintenshin can be broken through will. Sasuke's hatred+Susanoo ends that.

Chouji: He's strong, but slow. And the larger he becomes, the better a target for Susanoo's arrows.

Neji: He can't pierce through Susanoo with Jyuuken alone, and I'm sure Susanoo can punch straight through Kaiten.

Lee: Lee goes Gates and start punching at Susanoo, only for Sasuke to coat it in Amaterasu.

Shino: We've seen Shino's bugs eat chakra, but nothing so potent as Susanoo. And I'm positve they'd burn to death before they could devour Amaterasu.

Kiba: Same as Lee without the Gates.

Hinata: Same as Neji, though easier.

Ten Ten: Chakra laced weapons beat normal weapons. Then there's the whole "Susanoo is a near perfect defense" thing.

Sakura: She's limited to close range combat and has no answer to Amaterasu or Susanoo either.

Sai: Has ink familiars that could pose a real good nuisance, provided he could summon giant animals. Then again, they don't seem that strong, as Chouji bearhand crushed a Lion he summoned. These summons have also shown no ability to perform jutsu.

[Gats]

I don't see how that'd help at all. Sasuke was already outnumbered with his premature Susanoo and there was nothing his opponents could do to stop them. Hell, it was 3 jounin and a Kage who all jumped him with their jutsu too.


No because the fight turned into one vs one for a while (Sasuke vs Raikage) thanks to his...hm...team. And when he was really under attack by several jounins and kage at once, he used an almost full Susano'o to protect him, he didn't fight back, he made an escape to find Danzou quickly, at this point we can safely guess that he thought he couldn't fight all of them. Even against Mizukage and Tsuchikage, he couldn't fight back.
Besides, the jounins and kages from the summit didn't have 24h to make a plan and didn't know a lot about Sasuke true powers (and simply didn't know that Sasuke would come).

We also know that Raikage was very angry and was too reckless because of his brother.

[jdw]

I don't see how that'd help at all. Sasuke was already outnumbered with his premature Susanoo and there was nothing his opponents could do to stop them. Hell, it was 3 jounin and a Kage who all jumped him with their jutsu too.

To be fair, that was a sudden skirmish against an unexpected opponent. Gaara, Temari, Kanurou, and Darui launched a quick strike that didn't do much. Sasuke caused the "cave-in of hatred" and fled to find Danzou. I am not really sure that we learned much of anything there other than Susanoo lived through 4 attacks at once. Nice. Give those same shinobi 24 hours to prepare and an actual, prolonged fight, and the outcome might be different. The may all die in the end, who knows, but it wouldn't end with Sasuke going to find Danzou after the first strike.

[Gats]

1. Lee
2. Neji

maybe

3. Shino

With this team, they have a shot. It would still be tough but at least interesting.

A taijutsu oriented team ?

Maybe you're hoping that they will kick his back before he has the idea to use Susano'o ? (Lee speed, Neji Juunken, and Shino sucking his chakra ?)

I wonder if Sasuke would be able to call Susano'o if he has all his chakra points closed by Neji ? Would it be the same as Naruto with Kyuubi or not ?

If Susano'o is up, do you think that Shino bugs would be able to directly suck Susano'o chakra ? ><
If not, do they have the power to make a blow in Susano'o ?

[jdw]

A taijutsu oriented team ?

Maybe you're hoping that they will kick his back before he has the idea to use Susano'o ? (Lee speed, Neji Juunken, and Shino sucking his chakra ?)

I wonder if Sasuke would be able to call Susano'o if he has all his chakra points closed by Neji ? Would it be the same as Naruto with Kyuubi or not ?

If Susano'o is up, do you think that Shino bugs would be able to directly suck Susano'o chakra ? ><
If not, do they have the power to make a blow in Susano'o ?

It may be a taijutsu oriented team, but the other rookies are useless so you may as well use what you got.

The team is just the most capable people among those listed. We can immediately eliminate (1) Sakura, (2) Ten Ten, (3) Ino, (4) Hinata, (5) Chouji, & (6) Kiba. as useless or someone better exists. Once we do that there isn't much left to work with.

As for calling out Susanoo if all his points are pressed, probably. It seems like Susanoo may help with overcoming jutsu placed on Sasuke. Shino's bugs may be able to eat Susanoo, but even if they can, are they able to do it fast enough to matter? There is no proof that Susanoo can survive things that eat/absorb chakra.

[hakuthehedgehog]

Even still, Sasuke can just errect Sussano and protect himself from anything Shika throws at him, and then shit on him in the next few seconds.


You mean before he is blinded by the flashbang, because in every panel Susano'o was summoned, both eyes were open IIRC.

[Delbi]

You mean before he is blinded by the flashbang, because in every panel Susano'o was summoned, both eyes were open IIRC.

Sasuke can still force his eyes open, its similar to lookin into the sun lol. And even if Shika gets the flashbang off and Sasuke doesn't get Sussano up, he can still do things like Shushin and just move away while he's blinded. He can move much faster than Shikamaru's shadow can, Shika is going to have to trick him to catch him, and Sasuke isn't exactly an idoit. The flashbang is his best option, but remember its not like Shika is immune to its effect either.

[ninjabot]

No because the fight turned into one vs one for a while (Sasuke vs Raikage) thanks to his...hm...team. And when he was really under attack by several jounins and kage at once, he used an almost full Susano'o to protect him, he didn't fight back, he made an escape to find Danzou quickly, at this point we can safely guess that he thought he couldn't fight all of them. Even against Mizukage and Tsuchikage, he couldn't fight back.
Besides, the jounins and kages from the summit didn't have 24h to make a plan and didn't know a lot about Sasuke true powers (and simply didn't know that Sasuke would come).


What exactly is your argument? I just stated that if the combined powers of 3 jounin and a kage aren't enough to break through a not-even-full-power Susanoo, then there's nothing the Rookie 11 could come up with to defeat a 100% Susanoo. The above quote doesn't disprove that.


We also know that Raikage was very angry and was too reckless because of his brother.


Which again, has absolutely nothing to do with the Rookie 11's lack of necessary destructive power.



To be fair, that was a sudden skirmish against an unexpected opponent. Gaara, Temari, Kanurou, and Darui launched a quick strike that didn't do much. Sasuke caused the "cave-in of hatred" and fled to find Danzou. I am not really sure that we learned much of anything there other than Susanoo lived through 4 attacks at once. Nice. Give those same shinobi 24 hours to prepare and an actual, prolonged fight, and the outcome might be different. The may all die in the end, who knows, but it wouldn't end with Sasuke going to find Danzou after the first strike.


Same to you. I was speaking on how unless this 24 hours of prep time allows them time enough to gain a jutsu destructive enough to pierce through Susanoo, then it's a wasted day.



You mean before he is blinded by the flashbang, because in every panel Susano'o was summoned, both eyes were open IIRC.


http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/463/07/ His eyes look closed, but there's too much hair. I'll check for more scans.

EDIT: Here you go. Susanoo summoned with closed eyes.http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/464/09/ No Susanoo...

http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/464/10/ Susanoo. With eyes closed.

[Gats]

What exactly is your argument? I just stated that if the combined powers of 3 jounin and a kage aren't enough to break through a not-even-full-power Susanoo, then there's nothing the Rookie 11 could come up with to defeat a 100% Susanoo. The above quote doesn't disprove that.


Your combined powers of 3 jounins and the Kazekage means nothing in this case. They did use an attack enough strong to kill a human, not to pierce an almost full Susano'o. Even more when the sand ninjas didn't have a clue about Susano'o ability. Actually it really wasn't their best shot, it's so obvious for the Kazekage, and Kankuro AT LEAST (sand bullets and kunaïs with bombs ?! Come on ! Even Tenten big bomb can do better). The fact that these attacks came from jounins or even Kage don't define their strength, otherwise why Danzou single fuuton strike was able to make a whole ?

http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/464/14-15/

Despite this, after thinking a little, it's true that I don't see what team from the 11 rookies might work. Maybe I should say that Shika can also pick up some Konoha jounins.

[kanamechidori]

The Uchihas aren't invincible.

The Aburame guy with the deadly skin took Madara's arm with one touch.

Even though Shino probably doesn't have anything on par with that, he did place his bugs inside of the sound nins hand thingy during the chunin tournament.

If he had a couple of chakra eating bugs in Sasukes clothes before Susanooh was formed, or poison bugs, then Sasuke would be ****ed.

The chakra bugs sapping his chakra would be a deadly combination with the amount of stamina Susanoo needs to stay active. Add a poison onto that and if he doesn't have Karin to cure him, then he's through.

[Zatono]

I've got a small question....couldn't Shikamaru, using the Kagemane Jutsu...simply CLOSE HIS EYES upon getting Sasuke trapped? That'd take away the problem of Amaterasu, Tsukuyomi, and Susano'o, all at the same time. At that point, Shikamaru could just grab a kunai, and throw it at Sasuke's face, since I'm sure he's a decent enough ninja to be able to hit a target with his eyes closed. Hell, he can just aim at Sasuke's hatred, there's no way he can miss that.

By the way, now that this hatred thing is a running joke, I just remembered what was on this page. http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/464/01/

[Rikudou King]

I've got a small question....couldn't Shikamaru, using the Kagemane Jutsu...simply CLOSE HIS EYES upon getting Sasuke trapped? That'd take away the problem of Amaterasu, Tsukuyomi, and Susano'o, all at the same time. At that point, Shikamaru could just grab a kunai, and throw it at Sasuke's face, since I'm sure he's a decent enough ninja to be able to hit a target with his eyes closed. Hell, he can just aim at Sasuke's hatred, there's no way he can miss that. Unlikely, As far as we've seen, Shikamaru's technique only affects movement, Nothing else.

Anyhow, I would have to give this to Sasuke. Shikamaru's smart, But that's really all he has going for him. In order to defeat Sasuke, Shikamaru would have to end it quickly, Which won't be easy against Sasuke.

[Delbi]

The Kageman jutsu only controls things that give off a shadow, limbs, head, torso, etc. The eyes and mouth of the person being caught can still move fine, so Shikamaru would still get fried by Ameratsu even if he caught Sasuke.

[Shaunlim]

The Kageman jutsu only controls things that give off a shadow, limbs, head, torso, etc. The eyes and mouth of the person being caught can still move fine, so Shikamaru would still get fried by Ameratsu even if he caught Sasuke.

Not necessarily since he can still use it to move Sasuke's hand to close his eyes.

All in all, I find it doubtful that Shikamaru can pull it off alone. Give him a team or a partner and I say he would have a better chance of winning this.

[RandomShikafan]

This'll be exactly the millionth time I've made this argument but contrary to popular belief, Shikamaru actually has gained new techniques over the timeskip. If Shikamaru faced Tayuya right now, her willpower and chakra wouldn't mean jack**** if she got caught.

http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/325/09/

This would kill anyone that isn't immume to stab wound like Hidan. It would kill Tayuya. It would kill Sasuke and against people whose injuries aren't tied to Asuma, Shikamaru would use it right away. So anyone that thinks Shikamaru under these conditions could catch Sasuke, rest easy, it would just come down to whether who strikes first.

I don't think Shikamaru could do even that, Sasuke is far to fast to fall into traps and his eyes can see chakra so he'd know to avoid the shadows.

But argument that Shikamaru would catch Sasuke, then for some godforsaken reason, hold back, use Shadow Neckbind in favor of his better technique and proceed to lose is, well I have only rude things to say about it.

[juUnior]

Sasuke wins 110%, no doubt in my mind.

Still, give Shikamaru one or two shinobis <they can be from "rookies" for example> and in 24h he will be able to think a counters to all of the abilities of Sasuke: Susano'o, Amaterasu, Tsukuyomi, summonigs and etc. <don't ask me how he would counter it - like Susano'o :p - but I bet Shika would do that in some way or another with prepearation time and knowing the abilities of the opponent :p>.

[Gats]

I wonder if Shikamaru can use his shadow jutsu to protect himself against Amateratsu, since he can untie his shadow and can make physical contact with it. But a black fire consuming....a shadow would be weird.

Would a giant Chouji be able to immobilize Susano'o for a while ? Even if Sasuke can Amateratsu him, it would not kill him instantly and he would, at least, hold Susano'o while the others will try to make a hole in his back >< ?

[Arctigor]

I think Shikamaru would win...he only needs to touch him...but Sasuke knows his tech and won't be off guard...so Shikamaru must be very quick to catch him 'cuz when he capture Sasuke with his shadow he can close Sasuke's eyes by closing his own eyes(I think)...but if Sasuke can evade Shikamaru's shadows and uses Susano'o than they are as good as dead

[Prince Sasuke]

I think Shikamaru would win...he only needs to touch him...but Sasuke knows his tech and won't be off guard...so Shikamaru must be very quick to catch him 'cuz when he capture Sasuke with his shadow he can close Sasuke's eyes by closing his own eyes(I think)...but if Sasuke can evade Shikamaru's shadows and uses Susano'o than they are as good as deadShika could probably kill Kakashi with prep time and what ever else, but Sasuke MS Jutsu just won't allow it.

[khar2]

simply he lacks skilzzzzz, he has brains and thats it, nothing more:D

[Rikudou King]

This'll be exactly the millionth time I've made this argument but contrary to popular belief, Shikamaru actually has gained new techniques over the timeskip. If Shikamaru faced Tayuya right now, her willpower and chakra wouldn't mean jack**** if she got caught.

http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/325/09/

This would kill anyone that isn't immume to stab wound like Hidan. It would kill Tayuya. It would kill Sasuke and against people whose injuries aren't tied to Asuma, Shikamaru would use it right away. So anyone that thinks Shikamaru under these conditions could catch Sasuke, rest easy, it would just come down to whether who strikes first.

I don't think Shikamaru could do even that, Sasuke is far to fast to fall into traps and his eyes can see chakra so he'd know to avoid the shadows.

But argument that Shikamaru would catch Sasuke, then for some godforsaken reason, hold back, use Shadow Neckbind in favor of his better technique and proceed to lose is, well I have only rude things to say about it. Some of us do remember the Shadow Sewing technique, But that again brings up the question of what can Shikamaru really do to counter Susanoo. We've seen Susanoo take alot of damage without failing, And even when it has failed, It still protected Sasuke from harm. The only actual counter to Susanoo is to wait it out until the user can't hold it anymore, Which would be a bad idea to try against Sasuke.

[jdw]

Some of us do remember the Shadow Sewing technique, But that again brings up the question of what can Shikamaru really do to counter Susanoo. We've seen Susanoo take alot of damage without failing, And even when it has failed, It still protected Sasuke from harm. The only actual counter to Susanoo is to wait it out until the user can't hold it anymore, Which would be a bad idea to try against Sasuke.

I think Susanoo can be countered, but the thing is, it will kill you as you try anyway (for the most part). Susanoo, according to databook 3, is materialized chakra. Someone/something with the ability to quickly absorb chakra may be able to reduce Susanoo to nothing, or to the point where the protection is negligible (think Hungry Ghost Pain, Kisame w/Samehada, but not Yoroi, who was very slow it seemed). The things is, Susanoo will not just watch while you do this. Shikamaru doesn't have the ability anyway.

[Delbi]

I think Susanoo can be countered, but the thing is, it will kill you as you try anyway (for the most part). Susanoo, according to databook 3, is materialized chakra. Someone/something with the ability to quickly absorb chakra may be able to reduce Susanoo to nothing, or to the point where the protection is negligible (think Hungry Ghost Pain, Kisame w/Samehada, but not Yoroi, who was very slow it seemed). The things is, Susanoo will not just watch while you do this. Shikamaru doesn't have the ability anyway.

Yea, draining Sussano of it's chakra is certainly the best option, but again, doing so leaves you open to attack.

IMO, the other best way to stop Sussano, is to destroy it, but at this point, I think only Naruto would be capable of such a feat.

Shikamaru's way of attacking and defeating Sasuke is too slow. Sasuke has so many attacks that could literally kill Shikamaru in seconds, it's not even funny. I love Pineapple head, but he just is waaay out of Sasuke's league.

[ninjabot]

Come on ! Even Tenten big bomb can do better). The fact that these attacks came from jounins or even Kage don't define their strength, otherwise why Danzou single fuuton strike was able to make a whole ?

http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/464/14-15/

Despite this, after thinking a little, it's true that I don't see what team from the 11 rookies might work. Maybe I should say that Shika can also pick up some Konoha jounins.

Danzou had already exhausted Sasuke prior, it only makes sense that the combined jutsu's of a summon and a Kage level opponent would be powerful enough to open a gap in Susanoo by that point.

[jdw]

Danzou had already exhausted Sasuke prior, it only makes sense that the combined jutsu's of a summon and a Kage level opponent would be powerful enough to open a gap in Susanoo by that point.

I am not sure I would credit the opening in Susanoo to prior weakening. Susanoo was not showing any signs of weakening at the time before Danzou's jutsu. There have been other occasion where if Susanoo weakened for reasons of exhaustion, it was shown. For instance, against Mizukage, Sasuke could not sustain a Susanoo skeleton when he tried to upgrade from riblet edition (http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/466/07/), you can see it immediately powered back down. In the fight against Danzou, Susanoo was not showing any sign of weakening before the jutsu landed.


Before Danzou's jutsu landed, Susanoo is fine.
http://img30.imageshack.us/img30/3376/24454997.jpg

After the jutsu landed, there is an opening, but Susanoo still maintains the form of complete Susanoo.
http://img264.imageshack.us/img264/4693/71312100.jpg

Here, at least 5 seconds after the jutsu has landed, Susanoo still appears to have maintained its complete form. The Izanagi count is confirmation.
http://img42.imageshack.us/img42/2742/72867620.jpg

Here, definitely more than 5 seconds after Danzou's jutsu landed, Susanoo starts to power down. The Izanagi count and other acts confrim.
http://img32.imageshack.us/img32/7457/44718514.jpg

As it stands now, I give credit to the jutsu for providing an opening in Susanoo, and do not credit the opening just to the weakening of Sasuke/Susanoo because they were in use already.

[ninjabot]

I am not sure I would credit the opening in Susanoo to prior weakening. Susanoo was not showing any signs of weakening at the time before Danzou's jutsu. There have been other occasion where if Susanoo weakened for reasons of exhaustion, it was shown. For instance, against Mizukage, Sasuke could not sustain a Susanoo skeleton when he tried to upgrade from riblet edition, you can see it immediately powered back down. In the fight against Danzou, Susanoo was not showing any sign of weakening before the jutsu landed.


You shouldn't attribute Susanoo's durability to itself, but rather the person who wields it. You neglected to mention that on the way to Susanoo failing to "upgrade" Sasuke's health was gradually decreasing from running low on chakra (caughing up blood, complaining about his entire body being on fire). And back then, he was less familiar with controlling the jutsu. Pushing himself harder to re-strengthen Susanoo would have been much more difficult.

The same happens against Danzou: we gradually see him coughing up blood, aswell as see him even fall to his knee once or twice. He was running low on the chakra needed to keep the wraith tangible, hence reforming armor around that gap wasn't possible at the moment.

[Tengu24]

on top of everything sasuke is constantly training by fighting god like opponents and shikimaru is playing shougi haha naah serious gotta give shiki props for his battle tactics, but sasuke is by now a very versatile shinobi and he cant be defeated by shiki, the most credit I can give shiki is that he will last longer than sasuke expected.

[hakuthehedgehog]

The only way I see Shikamaru win is if he does the same thing against Hidan : Dig a gigantic hole in the ground, set up the battle so that he uses Susano'o there, crumble it, and when he rides on a hawk, he tries to stab both of them with a shadow or capture him.
P.S: If shika captures him with Kagemane, and close his eyes with the hands, whould Sasuke be able to use MS jutsu?

[jdw]

You shouldn't attribute Susanoo's durability to itself, but rather the person who wields it. You neglected to mention that on the way to Susanoo failing to "upgrade" Sasuke's health was gradually decreasing from running low on chakra (caughing up blood, complaining about his entire body being on fire). And back then, he was less familiar with controlling the jutsu. Pushing himself harder to re-strengthen Susanoo would have been much more difficult.

The same happens against Danzou: we gradually see him coughing up blood, aswell as see him even fall to his knee once or twice. He was running low on the chakra needed to keep the wraith tangible, hence reforming armor around that gap wasn't possible at the moment.

It didn't matter. Sasuke wasn't showing any Susanoo weakness before Danzou's attack landed, and he didn't show any Susanoo weakness immediately after the attack (quite a lot of time passes after the attack before Susanoo powered down). If you have a reasonable counter to make, make it.

[Oathencrantz]

I woulda thought it was made pretty clear that Danzou's fuuton technique (coupled with Baku's suction) damaged Susanoo. I mean just look at the second panel jdw posted, obvious...

[ninjabot]

It didn't matter. Sasuke wasn't showing any Susanoo weakness before Danzou's attack landed, and he didn't show any Susanoo weakness immediately after the attack (quite a lot of time passes after the attack before Susanoo powered down). If you have a reasonable counter to make, make it.


It didn't matter? Every single panel that showed Sasuke in in chapter 478 was of him breathing heavily, exhausted from Susanoo's drain on his body. Then:http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/479/01/

He coughs up blood. He pushes himself to make more arrows, continuing to make his breathing labored. Then he gets hit in the back, part of Susanoo finally being able to be injured. Sure, he re-armors the wraith, but immediately after (like, the next time we see Sasuke) he keels over, and Susanoo is completely unarmored. There was no "quite alot of time" It was literally after he punched Danzou.

Even more proof?http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/393/02/
http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/393/03/
http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/393/05/
The closer Itachi get's to running out of chakra, the weaker his Susanoo becomes. The signs it was weakening came from ITACHI. Not Susanoo. Not until later. There's no visual demonstration until the armor comes off, which gradually happens as they get closer to death. Sasuke was running on empty, thus, his Susanoo was getting weaker. This was only preceded by coughing up blood though.



I woulda thought it was made pretty clear that Danzou's fuuton technique (coupled with Baku's suction) damaged Susanoo. I mean just look at the second panel jdw posted, obvious...


Coupled wth Sasuke's steady exhaustion, totally.

[jdw]

Susanoo was still up 100%. Unless it was shown weakening or wavering somehow, I do not see how you can just make it up. As far as I am concerned, Danzou's combo jutsu ripped Susanoo open. There was a lot of time. Danzou made initial contact here (http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/479/09/). At least 5 seconds passed after Danzou made contact and Susanoo powered down. About 5 passed after Sasuke hit Danzou and Susanoo powered down. I will show you clearly. In the bottom image, which is actually the next time we see sasuke, he appears to be standing up to me in side a fully powered Susanoo (Michael Jackson thriller jacket, weapons and all--Not a skeleton). If you wish to skip Sasuke sightings it is up to you.

http://img651.imageshack.us/img651/1619/lookatme.jpg

[Oathencrantz]

Coupled wth Sasuke's steady exhaustion, totally.

Nope, that's not what I got from the chapter. It seemed to be down to Danzou's technique.

[jdw]

Nope, that's not what I got from the chapter. It seemed to be down to Danzou's technique.

It cannot be someone else's success against Sasuke and his jutsu, it has to be because Sasuke faltered -_-;

There is a fully grown Susanoo at least 5 seconds after danzou's jutsu hit (It was probably more like 6-10 seconds after, but the Izanagi count confirms at least 5 seconds!).

[CBlitz]

if they just fought off the bat, Sasuke would crush Shika pretty easily. However if Shika had time to plan, than he'd win.

[ninjabot]

There is a fully grown Susanoo at least 5 seconds after danzou's jutsu hit (It was probably more like 6-10 seconds after, but the Izanagi count confirms at least 5 seconds!).

So wait, you consider 5 to 10 seconds a large amount of time? I guess it makes sense now...we have completely different ideas on what a long time is. You tasked me with proving Susanoo got weaker after Sasuke started getting exhausted. I did. I even proved the same about Itachi's Susanoo. He got weak. Susanoo started losing armor about...5 seconds after. Exact same thing.



Nope, that's not what I got from the chapter. It seemed to be down to Danzou's technique.


Ofcourse it was. Danzou's technique, combined with the increase in suction from the Baku was able to break through Susanoo thanks to Sasuke being near death. What's not to understand?



It cannot be someone else's success against Sasuke and his jutsu, it has to be because Sasuke faltered


Come on now, you're better than that. Just be wrong. It's not like it'd be the first time anyway.


There is a fully grown Susanoo at least 5 seconds after danzou's jutsu hit (It was probably more like 6-10 seconds after, but the Izanagi count confirms at least 5 seconds!).


Again, it's not that difficult to understand. The fact that the summon only lasted for a handful of seconds more is only proof against your argument. Susanoo is on a time limit from the moment it's summoned, and that time limit was close to being up.

[kkck]

I to think there was an stamina issue which helped danzo break through susanoo. Not only sasuke was fairly worn down from fighting danzo for a few chapters before that but also he had just fought the kages not even an hour ago -maybe more time than that but it does seem to have happened in the same day-. Seriously, how many times had sasuke use MS by then? How many simultaneous MS had sasuke used? Just recovering from the fight against the kages should have required a few days -I guess karin is a better healer than what meets the eye-. Even madara said combining MS jutsu would wear sasuke out.

[jdw]

@ninjabot: Just be wrong? Are you kidding? You should be on your knees admitting defeat already. I am simply being patient with you.

[ninjabot]

I'm on my knees, begging you to make your view make sense. And not Naruto fanboy logic either, like that "Naruto can totally summon what he wants, when he wants!" BS. I want an argument. I want evidence.

No amount of manga scans will make 5 seconds into a "large amount of time" as you so elequently put it. Nor will they make the fact that Itachi's own body lead up to Susanoo's de-armoring. Same for the weakness in Sasuke's Susanoo.

You've got a shred of respect left. Either make your points make sense and build it back up, or leave with that shred in tact.

[jdw]

I'm on my knees, begging you to make your view make sense. And not Naruto fanboy logic either, like that "Naruto can totally summon what he wants, when he wants!" BS. I want an argument. I want evidence.

No amount of manga scans will make 5 seconds into a "large amount of time" as you so elequently put it. Nor will they make the fact that Itachi's own body lead up to Susanoo's de-armoring. Same for the weakness in Sasuke's Susanoo.

You've got a shred of respect left. Either make your points make sense and build it back up, or leave with that shred in tact.

It is fine. I will stick to my point and lose your respect. I won't argue the point further, I will say we can just agree to disagree and leave it there for the good of the thread.

[LnDRash]

1) I see a complete Susanoo in these pics.
2) Then I see a complete Susanoo with a hole in it from Danzou's attack.
3) Afterwards I see a Susanoo powering down.

That this was only possible because the Susanoo was already weakend because of Sasuke's condition without showing any signs of it is only an assumption, there is nothing that indicates prove to this.

[ninjabot]

^Besides the scans of Itachi's Susanoo powering down NOT from Sasuke's attacks, but from Itachi being exhausted. Likewise, throughout the entirety of the fight, Sasuke was stacking MS jutsu on top of MS jutsu (just like Itachi was...)

I also don't remember saying that it was only possible thanks to Sasuke being tired. I'm saying his loss of chakra helped. We've seen on several occasions that the closer the user is to death, the harder it is to keep Susanoo active. But you're just as free to ignore that as everyone else is.

[LnDRash]

So you think as long as the user provides Susanoo with enough Chakra, Susanoo is completely invulnerable and Susanoo can only be damaged if the user starts weakening ?

Hm, then I dont understand why Susanoo uses a shield... why would he defend against attacks if they do nothing to him anyway ?

[ninjabot]

^No. I think that Susanoo won't fade away as long as the user has chakra/life force to feed it. And the more they have, the stronger the jutsu should be. As they lose chakra, the Susanoo weakens, making jutsu that normally aren't strong enough to break through it, now capable.

[Zehahaha]

What Shikamaru have is intelligence, but too bad from him, against a monster like Sasuke, you need both intelligence and power.

Shikamaru doesn't have any destructive jutsu like Naruto with his FRS for example, maybe he can find a flaw in Sasuke's jutsu, but does he have the power to inflict damage against him ? I don't think so, but if Shikamaru have an ally with him, well i'm sure that he'll defeat him

[LnDRash]

^No. I think that Susanoo won't fade away as long as the user has chakra/life force to feed it. And the more they have, the stronger the jutsu should be. As they lose chakra, the Susanoo weakens, making jutsu that normally aren't strong enough to break through it, now capable.

And what reason is there to assume that a high level futon technique which gets a large increase in power through the summon and is fired at the back of a Susanoo which is unable to defend isnt powerful enough to damage it ?

[ninjabot]

^Because you're completely incapable of proving that that one jutsu combination alone was more powerful than all the jutsu that Sasuke's incomplete Susanoo was hit with back at the Kage Summit.

[LnDRash]

^Because you're completely incapable of proving that that one jutsu combination alone was more powerful than all the jutsu that Sasuke's incomplete Susanoo was hit with back at the Kage Summit.

And how exactly are you capable of the opposite ? If you say Danzou was only able to damage Susanoo because it droped in power, even if it showed no signs of this prior to be damaged, then I would assume you are the one who has to prove that Danzou's Jutsu was to weak to do so by itself.

[LittleMissNemesis]

It sure as hell looked to me like Danzou was responsible for a small opening in Susanoo. That seemed to be what he was counting on- why he was waiting behind Sasuke while the suck-monster pulled from the other side. Susanoo, like every other powerful jutsu (er... is Susanoo really a jutsu?) is less unstoppable than it seemed at its first appearance. Yes, it comes apart when the user is drained, but that doesn't mean that user-fatigue is Susanoo's only weakness or that the 'gap' created in the last chapter was only there because Sasuke was tired.
--
What does this have to do with Shikamaru? Unless it completely slipped my mind, Shika isn't a wind-user anyway... and it's highly unlikely that he has a freaky vacuum monster on hold.

[khar2]

The only way I see Shikamaru win is if he does the same thing against Hidan : Dig a gigantic hole in the ground, set up the battle so that he uses Susano'o there, crumble it, and when he rides on a hawk, he tries to stab both of them with a shadow or capture him.
P.S: If shika captures him with Kagemane, and close his eyes with the hands, whould Sasuke be able to use MS jutsu?

and even then sasuke just have to up susano and get the sward, and destroy anything living infront of him, couse if shika is inside of kagemane reach so is susanos sward inside shikas reach, and he doesnt respond to sasukes move but to his thougts:D, simply shiki doesnt have firepower to win this

i mean only worst opponent for shikamaru would be one of the kumo brothers:D

[ninjabot]

And how exactly are you capable of the opposite ? If you say Danzou was only able to damage Susanoo because it droped in power, even if it showed no signs of this prior to be damaged, then I would assume you are the one who has to prove that Danzou's Jutsu was to weak to do so by itself.


Danzou did so for me. He didn't expect his jutsu to be strong enought to open a gap, so he amplified it's power with the Baku's suction inorder to give him the necessary boost. He's aware of Susanoo, even if only from hearsay. Hell, he knows more about Uchiha techniques than Sasuke does so he probably even knows more.

He propably knew how much power it takes to pierce Susanoo. If not, he at the very least knew he had to give it his all. Why are you so convinced that Danzou has within him far, far more destructive force in a single jutsu than the combined strength of a Kage and 3 Jounin do?

[jdw]

His attack "seemingly" created and opening against full Susanoo. Their attack did not against the mere skeleton. Plus, it could be because his wind blade jutsu focused on a single location, and was aided by the Baku's jutsu. Whereas the jutsu of Gaara and the others may have landed all over Susanoo instead of a single spot, thus spreading out the harm and not being strong enough in any individual spot.

[LnDRash]

I assume you are referring to this ?

http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/464/14-15/

Well, I see some physical projectiles from Gaara and Kankuro's puppet coupled with a simple futon from Temari and some Raiton thrown into it. As far as I know Futon does nothing to increase the power of Raiton and I doubt the Futon does anything to make those projectiles more destructive. Also Susanoo wasn't hit off guard in this scene and the attack was aimed at the whole area instead of being concentrated.

Danzou on the other hand most probably used his strongest Futon Technique combined with the suction of the Baku to make it even stronger. Also because of the suction, Susanoo was unable to defend against the attack and took a clean hit into his back.

Thats why I belive Danzou was able to damage Susanoo.

[ninjabot]

^ And yet somehow, you neglect to mention the amount of time Sasuke has spent within Susanoo, aswell as how many MS jutsu he's used thus far.

Each of those jutsu were multi hit attacks that launched multiple projectiles. Kankuro's attacks also had explosives to increase their destructive force. So what you consider 4 jutsu, I consider dozens of projectiles rapidly pounding against an incomplete Susanoo and still not breaking through.

Sasuke uses his shield to defend against Danzou's first Fuuton. The attack didn't make the shield, which is pretty much made from the same stuff as Susanoo itself's armor, break. So, we knew right then "Danzou doesn't have the destructive force needed to break through Susanoo."

So then we get a combination jutsu to up the ante. Prior to this, Sasuke is still breathing heavily. His chakra is still fading. Susanoo's "lifespan" and armor depends on the user summoning it. It makes perfect sense that a weakened Sasuke would have a weaker Susanoo, not just because we've seen it happen with he AND Itachi, but because it's logical.

Yes Danzou managed to break through. Yes, it was against a Susanoo that wasn't as strong as a fresh, beginning-of-battle Susanoo from a healthy Sasuke. Yes, it took help from his Summon.

[Delbi]

Sasuke has shown the ability to restructure Sussano when he has the chakra do to do so. http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/466/12/

^As you can see, Sasuke is able to replenish his Sussano after it had already been damaged by the Mizukage.

His Sussano didn't show any sign of being weaker in it's partial form, but it's strength was considerably less, hence why one second the Mizukage could damage it, and the next when he had more chakra, she couldn't.

http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/479/01/ Here we have Sasuke utterly exausted, but Sussano is still complete. Why is that? Becasue he already summoned it. From what I gather, to summon Sussano or to re-build it, you need chakra. To keep it active however, it drains your lifeforce and most likely your chakra as well. As the databook explains, Sasuke is basically a medium for Sussano.

Sasuke is utterly exausted at this point, with Sussano draining his lifeforce and chakra for it's strength, it would only make sense that the longer he has it active, the weaker it becomes. And for him to re-from it to its perfect stage he needs chakra, which he lacked, hence why he couldn't do it after Danzou's attack.

Ultimatley, to defeat Sussano, you must let the user become weaker, then attack it with incredibly powerful attacks.

The attack Danzou used could have been utterly ineffective, if it were not for Sasuke being so exausted, as Sussano could have been considerably stronger. In essence, the stronger Sasuke is in mind and spirit, the stronger Sussano is because it uses Sasuke as a medium. So if Sasuke is close to death, Sussano is basically worth shit.

[LnDRash]

And yet somehow, you neglect to mention the amount of time Sasuke has spent within Susanoo, aswell as how many MS jutsu he's used thus far.

The thing is, no matter how much chakra he used up, the Susanoo was in perfect shape when it was hit by the attack and several seconds afterwards. It only started to show obvious signs of depowering after Sasukes counterattack, so until this point I would assume the chakra supply was fine.



Sasuke uses his shield to defend against Danzou's first Fuuton. The attack didn't make the shield, which is pretty much made from the same stuff as Susanoo itself's armor, break. So, we knew right then "Danzou doesn't have the destructive force needed to break through Susanoo."

This only shows how powerful Danzous Futon Jutsus are. Think of it this way: Danzous unenhanced attacks are powerful enough for Susanoo to prefer his shield to guard himself instead of taking them directly. So what would a concentrated multiple layer attack which is further enhanced by environmental circumstances do?

Further, that Danzous attacks could not break Sansanoos shield has nothing to say at all. A knight fully covered in plate armor would also use his shield to block attacks, despite the armor and the shield being from the same material. The shield is much stronger then the armor, so I belive that it is the same in Susanoo's case: The spritual energie used for the shield would be much more dense then the armor on his back.

Anyway, I see you have your opinion and I'am fine with this, but further arguing will only lead us in circles. We both made our points clear and we should leave it now at that.

[jdw]

Sasuke has shown the ability to restructure Sussano when he has the chakra do to do so. http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/466/12/

^As you can see, Sasuke is able to replenish his Sussano after it had already been damaged by the Mizukage.

His Sussano didn't show any sign of being weaker in it's partial form, but it's strength was considerably less, hence why one second the Mizukage could damage it, and the next when he had more chakra, she couldn't.

http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/479/01/ Here we have Sasuke utterly exausted, but Sussano is still complete. Why is that? Becasue he already summoned it. From what I gather, to summon Sussano or to re-build it, you need chakra. To keep it active however, it drains your lifeforce and most likely your chakra as well. As the databook explains, Sasuke is basically a medium for Sussano.

Sasuke is utterly exausted at this point, with Sussano draining his lifeforce and chakra for it's strength, it would only make sense that the longer he has it active, the weaker it becomes. And for him to re-from it to its perfect stage he needs chakra, which he lacked, hence why he couldn't do it after Danzou's attack.

Ultimatley, to defeat Sussano, you must let the user become weaker, then attack it with incredibly powerful attacks.

The attack Danzou used could have been utterly ineffective, if it were not for Sasuke being so exausted, as Sussano could have been considerably stronger. In essence, the stronger Sasuke is in mind and spirit, the stronger Sussano is because it uses Sasuke as a medium. So if Sasuke is close to death, Sussano is basically worth shit.
If it was worth shit, why was it still in the full form? Any other time it powered down when there was an issue.

[LnDRash]

The attack Danzou used could have been utterly ineffective, if it were not for Sasuke being so exausted, as Sussano could have been considerably stronger. In essence, the stronger Sasuke is in mind and spirit, the stronger Sussano is because it uses Sasuke as a medium. So if Sasuke is close to death, Sussano is basically worth shit.

Or Danzous attack would damage Susanoo and it would be only ineffective because, like you said it yourself, Sasuke would use his chakra to rebuild Susanoo und pretty much instantly close the hole Danzou created.

[Sherlock Holmes]

SASU-
...Shikamaru has time to prepare?
Then he takes this.

This is like Superman vs Batman.
Superman would win 500% of the time in a fight...Unless Batman had time to prepare.


What Shikamaru have is intelligence, but too bad from him, against a monster like Sasuke, you need both intelligence and power.
Batman would beg to differ.

[Delbi]

SASU-
...Shikamaru has time to prepare?
Then he takes this.

This is like Superman vs Batman.
Superman would win 500% of the time in a fight...Unless Batman had time to prepare.


Batman would beg to differ.

Problem here is, there is no Kryptonite to make Sasuke magically weaker, so Sasuke still rips Shikamaru into a thousand pieces.

[Sherlock Holmes]

Problem here is, there is no Kryptonite to make Sasuke magically weaker, so Sasuke still rips Shikamaru into a thousand pieces.

Batman has beaten Superman without kryptonite before.

Also, Shikamaru has Sasuke's revenge as his kryptonite. He could make an overly elaborate plan to make Sasuke think that if he kills himself he will revive the Uchiha clan due to some random Sharingam power.

But then again that plan could take more than 24 hours to prepare. More like an entire arc.

[Rikudou King]

Batman has beaten Superman without kryptonite before.

Also, Shikamaru has Sasuke's revenge as his kryptonite. He could make an overly elaborate plan to make Sasuke think that if he kills himself he will revive the Uchiha clan due to some random Sharingam power.

But then again that plan could take more than 24 hours to prepare. More like an entire arc. I don't think Batman has ever beaten Superman by himself without having kryptonite or Superman being weaken beforehand.

Anyway, How would Shikamaru trick Sauske into killing himself? Sasuke may not be as smart as Shikamaru, But he's still considered a genius. Shikamaru has a hard time winning against people with high intelligence. Also, Sasuke's revenge isn't his weakness, It's his strength.

[Sherlock Holmes]

He did beat Superman(kinda) in Hush with no Kryptonite, if memory serves.

Revenge makes you angry, anger makes you irrational. Irrationality becomes a prey for geniuses. It makes him stronger, but it also makes him much more manipulable.
Madara knows that well.

[khar2]

->heheh all his intelligence didnt help him to kill that CS girl from sound, also he couldnt defeat temari also (and he knew what skills she has for 3 months) :D
->intelligence cant compesate for lack of power (not when there is such big difference)

[Sherlock Holmes]

->heheh all his intelligence didnt help him to kill that CS girl from sound, also he couldnt defeat temari also (and he knew what skills she has for 3 months) :D
->intelligence cant compesate for lack of power (not when there is such big difference)
He didn't know her skills, he just knew he was going to fight her. Also, he didn't bother preparing in the first place.

As for intelligence not being able to compensate for lack of power...You really want to argue that Shikamaru is closer to the Akatsuki guy than he is to Temari then? Really?

[Rikudou King]

He did beat Superman(kinda) in Hush with no Kryptonite, if memory serves.

Revenge makes you angry, anger makes you irrational. Irrationality becomes a prey for geniuses. It makes him stronger, but it also makes him much more manipulable.
Madara knows that well. Batman had a kryptonite ring he used against Superman in Hush (Unless you're referring to the second Hush comic, Which I haven't read).

Even more irrational then normally, Sasuke doesn't lose his genius. Look at his fight with Danzo, The sort of situation Shikamaru would be in. As for manipulating him, Sasuke isn't after Madara yet. Shikamaru's not gonna be able to manipulate Sasuke when Sasuke wants to kill him.

[khar2]

He didn't know her skills, he just knew he was going to fight her. Also, he didn't bother preparing in the first place.

As for intelligence not being able to compensate for lack of power...You really want to argue that Shikamaru is closer to the Akatsuki guy than he is to Temari then? Really?

->that was his fight to win (like sasuke-itachi, gara-naruto)
->also he saw temari fight ten-ten
->i proved my point man, he lost to CS girl (because he lacked firepower), asuma saved him in forest, he lost to temari(and he knew her skills)

->and now you want to pair him with the beast, known in the world like sasuke uchiha................
->there is limit to when you can compensate lack of one abillity with another, and here it is imposible, sorry i dont have anything to debate here, shika showed so little and sasuke is fighting kages and is stronger by every chapter

[Sherlock Holmes]

->that was his fight to win (like sasuke-itachi, gara-naruto)
->also he saw temari fight ten-ten
->i proved my point man, he lost to CS girl (because he lacked firepower), asuma saved him in forest, he lost to temari(and he knew her skills)

->and now you want to pair him with the beast, known in the world like sasuke uchiha................
->there is limit to when you can compensate lack of one abillity with another, and here it is imposible, sorry i dont have anything to debate here, shika showed so little and sasuke is fighting kages and is stronger by every chapter
No. He didn't have to beat her, because he did not care about the result. Remember? Lazy guy?
Right, he saw her fighting ten-ten. Forgot about that. Still, he never bothered planning against her. Because he didn't care.
The only time we saw him actually planning to fight someone was vs Hidan.

He never bothered to prepare before fighting Temari. He prepared vs Hidan.

That is undeniable. Have we reached that point yet?

"there is nothing to argue."

Yes there is. You said that you can't compensate for lack of difference in power with a fight, which is why he lost to Temari.

I pointed out he beat Hidan. I asked "Is he closer to Hidan than he is to Temari then?" you replied with...Actually you didn't reply.



Even more irrational then normally, Sasuke doesn't lose his genius. Look at his fight with Danzo, The sort of situation Shikamaru would be in. As for manipulating him, Sasuke isn't after Madara yet. Shikamaru's not gonna be able to manipulate Sasuke when Sasuke wants to kill him.

I'm sure that Sasuke would be smart enough to keep up with Shikamaru, but that is the problem. Remember David Xanatos from Gargoyles? "You can predict a genius, but you cannot predict an idiot."

True, we don't know if/when/how Sasuke is going to go after Madara. If he eventually stops being manipulated to hell and back, then I agree that Shika can't win even by manipulating him. But so far, Madara hasn't done much Shikamaru couldn't do.(Note: I said much. He has done some things that he couldn't, but Shikamaru could find a way around doing things more or less to the same effect and manipulate him anyway)

New Theory: SHIKAMARU IS MADARA.

...I'm kidding, by the way. But dammit if it wouldn't be awesome.

I'm thinking of Sasuke as Hamlet(...comparing Shakespeare to Naruto sounds like blasphemy, I know) at this point.

Hamlet was a genius, but revenge made him get crazier and crazier to the point where he did some pretty bad decisions. Not sure how Sasuke would go against someone who was out to make him crazy.

Like I said, Sasuke wins in a fair fight 1000% of the time. But with enough time for prepare, and depending how Sasuke develops about his revenge, Shikamaru could possibly outsmart him in a way to defeat him.

That depends on future chapters to show just how much his revenge has affected his rational thinking though. So far, he is still top-notch. But I think that Shika(or more realistically, Madara) can make him get so revenge-crazed he won't act rationally.

As for Batman, you are right. I was thinking of The Dark Knight Returns, where he used the suit instead of kryptonite.

There's also the "Shikamaru makes the fight last more than a day by setting up traps that can't stop but can delay Sasuke, then when Sasuke eats something it's revealed to be poisoned" scenario.

[kkck]

I doubt shikamaru has a chance. Give him a week and a million bucks and he still loses. The more elaborate and effective his trap is the more of sasuke's arsenal he draws. Assuming shikamaru pulls of a miracle and survives sasuke's shushin jutsu, he would still have to deal with insane speed which he absolutely lacks and many MANY varied jutsu. If hell freezes over and he actually survives that he has to face MS. Each and every MS jutsu sasuke has is more than enough to kill shikamaru 10 times over -even his weak and almost useless tsukioyomi would DESTROY shikamaru-. Fact is, shikamaru is a genious strategist but his other overall skills are not that impressive; shikamaru simply manages to use his limited arsenal at 200%. Thing is, sasuke is a decent strategist himself but is also insanely skilled in every possible ninja art. Sasuke's strategies allow him to use 120% of his jutsu which would ass rape shiakamaru's 200% efficiency of jutsu. Sasuke is simply in a different level when compared to shikamaru. Nothing shikamaru can do at the moment would ever counter MS nor does he actually have the strength to push sasuke that far.

[Ryr]

While Shikamaru is a brilliant strategist, his strategies mostly requires his opponent to act strictly within the parameters of his plans. In other words, his plans would most probably be ineffective against someone who would always think outside of the box or someone who is intelligent enough to use his own plans against him.

For instance, Shikamaru, knowing the lethality of Amaterasu, may goes to great lengths to think of a strategy which allows him to evade Sasuke's eye contact since he knows Amaterasu burns whatever which is reflected on Sasuke's eye. But what if the flames of Amaterasu are creatively twisted and manipulated through Enton such that a straight eye-contact becomes totally unnecessary to land a hit? There goes all his planning.

Simply put, Shikamaru's sophisticated plans often requires the opponent to lack ingenuity (ie Hidan) to succeed. Against someone who could cleverly adapt to or even use an enemy's strategy to his own advantage, however, such inflexible planning may be more of a liability.

[KnuckleheadedNinja]

Sasuke take this. People are overestimating Shikamaru, this is coming from one of his biggest fan. He is nowhere near Sasuke level, and a 24 preparation time ain't going to do him much good.

Knowing Shikamaru he would probably be smart(and lazy) enough to not show up for the fight, he would just be ending to his death.

[insid3rkill3r]

Sasuke takes this..... with the arsenal Sasuke now posseses and with waht we have seen of Shikamaru so far,,,, he has yet to show anything that will blow Sasuke away.

Shikamaru is cleary smarter than Sasuke,, but Sasuke still is smart and good at thinking,,, he doesnt let details and opportunity slip away,,,


Shikamaru isnt facing version 2 of Hidan here,,, this isnt a 'All i can do is get close to you and hit you with my weapon' scenario. Sasuke has dojutsus and incredible speed.

Even if Shikamaru had the time to prepare,,, his shadow technique wont do him much good with some1 that doesnt requite seals in order to perform his most powerful techniques. Shikamaru should be smart enough to avoid eye contact but does he have the speed to avoid Amaterasu? Does he have the stamina to make clones in order to fool Sasuke? Not really,,, he might come up with something but still, its not like Sasuke will go down in a few punches,,, Shikamaru has to go though Susano and he sure doesnt have any jutsus that will wreck Susano apart,,, Kagemane will also be useless if Sasuke pulls Susano to break the bonds like he did with the seals by Danzo.


I honestly believe this is overkill,,, Shika doesnt have much but his intellect and Kagemane,,,,, and hes facing some1 who is quite smart himself tho not on his level,, and has a vaste arsenal of jutsu that is far beyond his and among his arsenal he has doujutsu which are range jutsu which will counter Shika's only winning jutsu shown in the manga so far.


I love Shika but,,,, no just no

[mattiaildivino]

shikamaru's intelligence doesn't make miracles,sasuke would own him. even though shika stops him with the shadow,sasuke can use susanoo(as he did when danzo stopped him),illusions,and amaterasu.

[ninjabot]

He did beat Superman(kinda) in Hush with no Kryptonite, if memory serves.


No he didn't. He knocked him down with an uppercut while wearing a kryptonite ring. And it STILL broke his hand, lol.

[jaymizzo]

Even with planning Sasuke stomps Shikamaru hard

[mattiaildivino]

No he didn't. He knocked him down with an uppercut while wearing a kryptonite ring. And it STILL broke his hand, lol.

what are you talking about? who is the subject? batman?lex? please I love superman!!!

[juUnior]

Batman is the subject in Hush arc - just google it :p

Sasuke stomps whether SHikamaru is prepared or not. Sasuke's lvl is that much of a difference.

[Prince Sasuke]

Shikamaru = special jounnin level/ good in certain areas

Sasuke = kage level/ good at everything.

Shikamaru can't win on his best day.

[Sasunaru1234argh]

@ninjabot

The problem here is we are not as smart as Shikamaru, so we cant realy predict what he would come up with :P

We think about simple traps like explosion traps etc. but thats not nearly all Shikamaru could use as traps. Every Jutsu has its weakness, Susanoo is quite obvious since it drains the users lifeforce rapidly, Amaterasu needs the user to see the target. So i gues Shikamaru would play on time and assault Sasuke without showing himself, like he did against Tayuya.

Dunno... I think you are underestimating Shikamaru a bit if you give him absolutely no chances. :)

Okay, that's right... but when you said that we weren't as smart as Shika, you made a mistake... we don't have to be as smart as he is to understand his attacks. NARUTO IS NOT REAL!!! meaning, it has a mangaka, and the mangaka is not a genius, and he is the one that literally controls Shikamaru. So, to know what Shikamaru would do in that kind of battle against Sasuke, we only need to CAREFULLY assess what he and other powerful ninjas have perviously done, what he might do, and his main jutsu, that shadow thingie (soz, need to brush up on my naruto knowledge...)and some other stuff.

Basically, what i am saying is that, although you couldn't predict what Shikamaru would do, you can't predict what any other ninja would do. So don't try. Just watch, and learn. Okay?
Also, I think that both have an even chance of winning. ANYTHING COULD HAPPEN.

[Lemonadez]

Shikamaru can win if he knows Sasuke all abilities.

Come on that man is smart.

If Shikamaru borrow the treasure that sealed kinkaku. Shikamaru just need to is to say his name "Uchiha Sasuke" and sasuke just need to reply. Pretty much owned? because Sasuke always reply and talk infront of his opponent, he wont be able to escape this one.

[Rikudou King]

Shikamaru has no way to win, even with all that knowledge. Sasuke's nearly as fast as Ee. He would murder Shikamaru before Shikamaru could act.

[Uchiha_Blood]

Sasuke wins simply because, even if immobilized by Shikamaru's shadow, he can use both Amaterasu and Susano'o, and both are beyond Shikamaru's level of ability.
Shikamaru's main strategy and weapon is to immobilize the target and snap his neck or stab him, in the time that he would capture Sasuke's shadow, he would've received an Amaterasu or an arrow.
The difference of strenght between Mangekyo Sharingan and a normal shinobi, even if he is smart as Shikamaru, is simply too high