Hatred vs Will of Fire

[Gats]

In the 479/480 chapters thread, a discussion about hatred and will of fire was starting.
Some people think that in this manga hatred brings more power than will of fire in fight (mainly because of "Sasuke unlimited power") and others don't.

In my opinion, Hatred did not achieve more amazing feats than Will of Fire in fight, nor outside the fight. Sasuke brought quite nothing, yeah he escaped death from Danzou with a full Susano'o, but Naruto did somehting similar in the past so...

Jdw thinks that hatred is more powerful or useful (if I understand well) in battle, that Will of Fire is just like a temporary boost while hatred is much more than that. Some examples : Lee fought while he was unconscious but he ended with bones shattered. Jiraya came back from the death for a few seconds in order to write the code on the back of Fukasaku, but he lost after all etc

So, what do you think ?

[LnDRash]

Well, hatred can make a person extremely powerful, more then the will of fire I belive. However, hatred clouds your thoughts and tempts you to pay any price only to achieve your goal. In the end, it will destroy you. A good example what ultimately happens if you draw your power out of hatred is the outcome of the fight between Anakin and Obiwan in Episode 3.

So in the end, the will of fire will prove itself superior.

[jdw]

So far in the manga, examples of the will of fire have not been as useful as the examples of hatred. I am not saying hatred will always prove to be more powerful. Kisame123 posted saying that they were basically similar, wondering why people view the hatred differently from the Will of Fire, and I think they are similar in that they are motivating factors, but they are not similar in their reach and results, so far.

Sasuke's hatred has changed the outcomes of his own battles. It has allowed him to excel and proceed where others would have lost or died. The examples used by some of the will of fire were Lee fighting while unconscious, and Jiraiya willing himself back to life. The Will of Fire in those instances did not change the battle outcomes for Lee or Jiraiya. Both lost. Lee was still battered and broken. Jiraiya still died. Neither pulled off a miraculous victory or overcame intense jutsu and fought on like nothing happened at all.

The Will of fire has added some drama to battles in most cases, but Sasuke's hatred seems to be far more potent than that. It has become a force of its own to be reckoned with, and changes outcomes far beyond what the will of fire has done.

My earlier analogy stated that the Will of Fire is like drinking a Red Bull, and that Sasuke's power of hatred is like the power of the Hulk, which grows greater as the anger (hatred) of the Hulk grows greater. It seems to know no bounds.

[Gats]

So far in the manga, examples of the will of fire have not been as useful as the examples of hatred. I am not saying hatred will always prove to be more powerful. Kisame123 posted saying that they were basically similar, wondering why people view the hatred differently from the Will of Fire, and I think they are similar in that they are motivating factors, but they are not similar in their reach and results, so far.

Sasuke's hatred has changed the outcomes of his own battles. It has allowed him to excel and proceed where others would have lost or died. The examples used by some of the will of fire were Lee fighting while unconscious, and Jiraiya willing himself back to life. The Will of Fire in those instances did not change the battle outcomes for Lee or Jiraiya. Both lost. Lee was still battered and broken. Jiraiya still died. Neither pulled off a miraculous victory or overcame intense jutsu and fought on like nothing happened at all.

The Will of fire has added some drama to battles in most cases, but Sasuke's hatred seems to be far more potent than that. It has become a force of its own to be reckoned with, and changes outcomes far beyond what the will of fire has done.

My earlier analogy stated that the Will of Fire is like drinking a Red Bull, and that Sasuke's power of hatred is like the power of the Hulk, which grows greater as the anger (hatred) of the Hulk grows greater. It seems to know no bounds.

Sasuke only did that since he had Susano'o. Against Bee he would have been killed twice without his team.
Will of Fire is not something really temporary, it something that bring something powerful in a medium or long term, a kind of delayed jutsu.

Lee and Jiraya fought an enemy who was too superior to them, it's like saying that despite your will you can't climb the Everest all by yourself. So even with hatred they would loose.

No one could beat Pain anyway, with all the hatred or will of fire during the fight, his loss is the result of the medium term effect of Jiraya's will of fire.
Lee just doesn't have the ability required to beat Garaa.

Sasuke, at least, had some viable tools to beat his past and present opponents.

[Uru]

So far in the manga, examples of the will of fire have not been as useful as the examples of hatred. I am not saying hatred will always prove to be more powerful. Kisame123 posted saying that they were basically similar, wondering why people view the hatred differently from the Will of Fire, and I think they are similar in that they are motivating factors, but they are not similar in their reach and results, so far.


Becouse you havent read the whole manga.Be patience and wait the final legend.Please be quiet and read the last panel o the manga.I will sign that and we weill speak about that at the end.

In the end will of fire will outclass the hatred way.In the long way there is no comparisons.In the short way you can have a chance with it..

But remember sir, hate is not the answer!

It seems that's is for ladies.But JUST som great mind can understand how that is the men greatest attitude.



Sasuke's hatred has changed the outcomes of his own battles. It has allowed him to excel and proceed where others would have lost or died. The examples used by some of the will of fire were Lee fighting while unconscious, and Jiraiya willing himself back to life. The Will of Fire in those instances did not change the battle outcomes for Lee or Jiraiya. Both lost. Lee was still battered and broken. Jiraiya still died. Neither pulled off a miraculous victory or overcame intense jutsu and fought on like nothing happened at all.


OMG.. I cant believe what I read.. And honestly I cant believe that I've read is posted by you.

Jiraiya sacrifice or better Jiraiya's death choice has been by far the crucial phase of the entire damned MANGA.[Even Ojiji-sama spoken about that..]
How do you can state that???

With his choice Jiraiya saved the whole world.. Like a famous cheerleader.. LOL

And pls bear in mind, Jiraiya-sama is the first one character in the manga which got entirely the sense of life.He hunderstood well the world problems.He addressed to himself the right ancestral questions (forgive my poor eng pls).But he got the answer just at the end of his life.

Without him we will never had Naruto.Or better.. THAT Naruto.The man will break the curse, that will make new all the things.

He revives in Naruto.And in my heart.



The Will of fire has added some drama to battles in most cases, but Sasuke's hatred seems to be far more potent than that. It has become a force of its own to be reckoned with, and changes outcomes far beyond what the will of fire has done.

My earlier analogy stated that the Will of Fire is like drinking a Red Bull, and that Sasuke's power of hatred is like the power of the Hulk, which grows greater and the anger (hatred) of the Hulk grows greater. It seems to know no bounds.

Think hard about that.Do you think Naruto nindou is a new thing?
Or it has ties with something so old?


It is something so old... Just a newer and original manner to explain us the Truth.

Men still arent ready for that.They should be already 2000 years ago..
But they arent yet... Still now.

It's all here.
But the day will come... Be faithful..

[jdw]

OMG.. I cant believe what I read.. And honestly I cant believe that I've read is posted by you.

Jiraiya sacrifice or better Jiraiya's death choice has been by far the crucial phase of the entire damned MANGA.[Even Ojiji-sama spoken about that..]
How do you can state that???

But it did not allow Jiraiya to walk away. The battle outcome for Jiraiya was the same. The act saved everyone but Jiraiya. Even though the decision saved the world, and is one of my favorite moments in any medium of communication/storytelling, etc, Jiraiya still died at that time.

[Jack Van Burace]

I think the explanation to this has already been given to us.

Kishimoto explained that in order to generate chakra, one must bond the mind and body. Not smartness and physical strength, but sincronizing your mind with your body makes more chakra. Naruto is pretty dumb, as mentioned since the beggining of the manga. However, he is a chakra powerhouse, partially because of living against Kyuubi's chakra, but partially also because he is an expontaneous person, his mind and body work alongside.

The anger is the same: a will on your mind moving towards your body completely, exposing your inside emotions integrally. That, imo, is a kind of mind-body union, a sort of chakra generation.

The same could be said about the Will of Fire, a capability of keeping your body by your mental will. It's a union of both. Using your body without a strong motive won't work, and having a motive but failing to act (sort of like Sai's psychological restrictions) won't do anything either.

The Will of Fire and the Hatred are mental motivations that break through and manifest physically on the body, the real deals, and that should generate a ton of chakra, due to the intensity of these emotions, the effect they have on the mind and body both.

Of course, this is MY interpretation. ^^

[kisame123]

You compare them as if Kishi has employed them similarly. He has not. The will of fire is basically a philosophy that is used by Konoha shinobi. Sure, it gives them some major motivation and on a few occasions that has turned into strength, but it is nothing like Sasuke's use of "the power hatred."

If I can be forgiven for a stupid analogy, the will of fire is like drinking a red bull while experiencing a patriotic moment in a fight, etc. Comparatively, the power of hatred is like receiving the power of the Hulk, which knows no bounds when anger (hatred) is on the rise.

Lee tried to fight on though unconscious, beaten, broken, and on the verge of death. He lost anyway and awoke to the possibility of never being a shinobi again. His power didn't really accomplish much besides a nice dramatic moment. He was still all of those things despite getting up. He was done. Jiraiya coming back from the dead was the same, nothing more than a nice dramatic moment. He came back, wrote on a frog, and immediately went back to being dead. He didn't defeat Pain, escape, or undo some wicked jutsu and keep fighting as though nothing happened at all. None of them unlocked levels of insane jutsu due to the will of fire. Naruto was not able to control Kyuubi due to the will of fire, yet anyway.

The will of fire has been shown to basically represent a way of life of never giving up, plus a minor boost in power once in a while, usually without any change in consequences to the individual (lee still lost and broken, jiraiya still dead). The power of hatred is new h4x.


So far in the manga, examples of the will of fire have not been as useful as the examples of hatred. I am not saying hatred will always prove to be more powerful. Kisame123 posted saying that they were basically similar, wondering why people view the hatred differently from the Will of Fire, and I think they are similar in that they are motivating factors, but they are not similar in their reach and results, so far.

Sasuke's hatred has changed the outcomes of his own battles. It has allowed him to excel and proceed where others would have lost or died. The examples used by some of the will of fire were Lee fighting while unconscious, and Jiraiya willing himself back to life. The Will of Fire in those instances did not change the battle outcomes for Lee or Jiraiya. Both lost. Lee was still battered and broken. Jiraiya still died. Neither pulled off a miraculous victory or overcame intense jutsu and fought on like nothing happened at all.

The Will of fire has added some drama to battles in most cases, but Sasuke's hatred seems to be far more potent than that. It has become a force of its own to be reckoned with, and changes outcomes far beyond what the will of fire has done.

My earlier analogy stated that the Will of Fire is like drinking a Red Bull, and that Sasuke's power of hatred is like the power of the Hulk, which grows greater as the anger (hatred) of the Hulk grows greater. It seems to know no bounds.
I disagree, "hatred" isn't some "power-up" or "hax" as you proclaim it to be, it's just that you make it out to be that way through persistent references on this thread. If "hatred" were really a power-up in the sense that it allows Sasuke to defeat his opponents, then the "will of fire" has done much more in terms of accomplishments and achievements. I'm going to put Lee and Jiraiya aside since I'm not too sure about their motivation and their belief of the "will of fire". Jiraiya seems to care less about those things and more about "peace" whereas Rock Lee just had hardwork ethic, but both still managed to do feats with sheer willpower. However, I will bring back the Hokage examples and Naruto as I've pointed out earlier in chapter 133.

Naruto was able to defeat Gaara after he realized that protecting his friends was important. What's interesting is that Naruto was not able to defeat Gaara with intelligence, but only after he fought to protect his friends without any logic. Although Naruto usually draws on kyuubi chakra, this was not indicated in this chapter. there are distinct characteristics Naruto takes on when drawing external chakra, when the eyes turn red with slits with red chakra. however, this wasn't the case in the chapter I provided above. This was the "will of fire" and it was specifically referenced in the chapter. This was not some minute increase in power, it was very significant as witnessed by Sasuke and again, in congruence to the theme of protecting people in that chapter. The chapter narration stresses that willingness to protect on the same page I linked earlier.
( http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/133/15/ )

Whereas, Sasuke's "hatred" was only attributed to strength during this fight with Danzou and even that has debatable circumstances. "hatred" was only introduced in the Kage fights-when Sasuke charged at the Raikage"-but it wasn't seen as something directly giving him strength. Madara mentioned that "hatred" is Sasuke's nindo, ally, and gives him strength in the sense that it drives him to become stronger.
(http://read.mangashare.com/Naruto/chapter-462/page016.html)
nonetheless, nobody was complaining about hatred being a "hax" or giving him strength at that time. this was necessary as I've argued before, that "hatred" as a anti-ideology to the "will of fire" needed to be introduced. therefore, these really isn't enough to suggest that Sasuke continously uses "hatred" as a factor that changes the outcome of battles, I think the "will of fire" still holds that title. maybe if there are two or three more fights where it is obviously clear, I might agree, but for the chapter you are referring to, it is debatable.


"hatred" is only a "hax" because you make it out to be and because people constantly post on the subject, we are easily misled into thinking this as well. however, in context of the manga, it is nothing except motivation and Sasuke's nindo, just as the "will of fire". I don't criticize the "will of fire" nor do I do the same with "hatred" because they are in essence, just encouraging ideologies that provide motivation which is the best force multiplier for any soldier as they say in the military. who better to use that ideology of hatred against, than Danzou the main reason for Sasuke's problem?

[SeventhPath]

Hatred vs Will of fire.

Hatred wins, easily.

And it's not because Kishi thought about such comparisons - if he thought about it, we would have seen more equilibrium between hatred and will of fire.
It's because, in Part 2, he hyped/overpowered Sasuke at the expense of everyone else. Sasuke's method - hatred - was depicted as being FAR more efficient at making one stronger or allowing one to win battles than the will of fire or anyhing else.

Proof - Sasuke's and Naruto's evolution throughout all of part 2.

[AlB]

Hatred vs Will of fire.

Hatred wins, easily.

And it's not because Kishi thought about such comparisons - if he thought about it, we would have seen more equilibrium between hatred and will of fire.
It's because, in Part 2, he hyped/overpowered Sasuke at the expense of everyone else. Sasuke's method - hatred - was depicted as being FAR more efficient at making one stronger or allowing one to win battles than the will of fire or anyhing else.

Proof - Sasuke's and Naruto's evolution throughout all of part 2.

wow, you are counterargumenting yourself.
naruto's sage mode (which is not detrimental for him) comes from his determination, his determination stems from his will to protect those he holds dear and sage mode easily pwns amaterasu (same with raikage - speed) while rasen-shuriken will easily pwn susanoo (if danzo did partially damage it just imagine what naruto will do haha). again through speed naruto will evade tsukuyomi
sasuke's MS powers come from his determination, his determination stems from his will to kill every goddamn person in the world without any apparent reason, and don't give me the ravange crap (what samurai also had part in uchuha massacre? lol). Sasuke's powers gained through hatred are SELF-DETRIMENTAL, he will go blind, and even if he takes itachi eyes, susanoo will still take its toll!!!!

[Uru]

But it did not allow Jiraiya to walk away. The battle outcome for Jiraiya was the same. The act saved everyone but Jiraiya. Even though the decision saved the world, and is one of my favorite moments in any medium of communication/storytelling, etc, Jiraiya still died at that time.

Well.. ^^
I thought I have made myself clear before.I'll be now more explicit.

The central point is not save yourself.The central point is give yourself, your life to your neighbour (love your neighbour as yourself).That's all.

Love has his opposite into egoism.Not hatred.
Hatred originates listening our ego.Becouse we are all EGO slaves.
If JUST we could give up our ego way...

Hatred will be nullified in no time.And If we will be able to ignore our instinctive ego voice...

The difficulty is here.It has its origin in our animal instinct, in our instinct of self-preservation but it can be defeated listening our heart and our conscience.Yeah..

The conscience... The ability to make things according the Truth...
That's why we are "sapiens".

[SuperSaiyaMan]

The Will of Fire vs Hatred, it is like the Light Side and the Dark Side. Hell they're practically the same in aspects. And no, neither are stronger than the other.

For example, Hatred has allowed Sasuke to master techniques and get stronger in a short amount of time. That's true. But that's the quick and easy path. And it has been proving to be a backlash for him-he's draining his life force more quickly with his complete Susano'o, as well as the eye bleeding and blindness. Like the use of the Dark Side changes a person's appearance (skin color to pale and sickly, eyes to evil yellow), Sasuke's hatred is irrevocably changing his appearance and vision.

Naruto's Will of Fire is slower, but no less strong than Sasuke's hatred. However, the Will of Fire path is more rewarding. It doesn't damage your body. It gives you true strength. It can make you enlightened. Naruto discovered this during his battle with Gaara. The Will of Fire made him stronger. Just like the Light Side.

So no, neither are stronger than the other. Hatred is just more quick and easy than pure hard work or protecting people.

[tousendrinksbleach]

dont say this to me
hatred doesnt make you aawaken baby susanoo and then master it and become the best susanoo user 30 mins later
there is no hatred or will of fire there is will of kishimoto masashi that is above all
[hr]

wow, you are counterargumenting yourself.
naruto's sage mode (which is not detrimental for him) comes from his determination, his determination stems from his will to protect those he holds dear and sage mode easily pwns amaterasu (same with raikage - speed) while rasen-shuriken will easily pwn susanoo (if danzo did partially damage it just imagine what naruto will do haha). again through speed naruto will evade tsukuyomi
sasuke's MS powers come from his determination, his determination stems from his will to kill every goddamn person in the world without any apparent reason, and don't give me the ravange crap (what samurai also had part in uchuha massacre? lol). Sasuke's powers gained through hatred are SELF-DETRIMENTAL, he will go blind, and even if he takes itachi eyes, susanoo will still take its toll!!!!

DUDE LET US BE REASONABLE HERE
what the heck is sage mode? deva real wasnt even fighting and once he gained his power back , the fight ended few seconds later
naruto survived that fight only because pain wanted him alive , but the raikage (oh raikage) wanted sasuke dead and so does danzou but hatred (like if the raikage or danzou have no hatred) beaen them
look at what did sasuke when he was sealed by danzou ! he should have lost the fight , but hatred .... it just works like a pvp trinket in wow

[SuperSaiyaMan]

DUDE LET US BE REASONABLE HERE
what the heck is sage mode? deva real wasnt even fighting and once he gained his power back , the fight ended few seconds later
naruto survived that fight only because pain wanted him alive , but the raikage (oh raikage) wanted sasuke dead and so does danzou but hatred (like if the raikage or danzou have no hatred) beaen them
Dude, why don't you be reasonable. It wasn't just that Pain wanted to keep Naruto alive that let Naruto triumph over him, it was Naruto's determination, and his desire to protect his village, and not giving into his hatred which won the battle and revived everyone that Pain killed.

look at what did sasuke when he was sealed by danzou ! he should have lost the fight , but hatred .... it just works like a pvp trinket in wow
Hatred isn't stronger, tousen. As I explained in my post, its quick and easy, while the Will of Fire is slow and steady. And slow and steady ultimately wins the race.

[tousendrinksbleach]

Hatred isn't stronger, tousen. As I explained in my post, its quick and easy, while the Will of Fire is slow and steady. And slow and steady ultimately wins the race.

the prolem is that kishi is exagerating here ... hatred shoul be this way, however it is spammed in this manga
it might be quick and but it is just repeated every time sasuke needs it

[AlB]

dont say this to me
hatred doesnt make you aawaken baby susanoo and then master it and become the best susanoo user 30 mins later
there is no hatred or will of fire there is will of kishimoto masashi that is above all
<hr noshade size="1">


DUDE LET US BE REASONABLE HERE
what the heck is sage mode? deva real wasnt even fighting and once he gained his power back , the fight ended few seconds later
naruto survived that fight only because pain wanted him alive , but the raikage (oh raikage) wanted sasuke dead and so does danzou but hatred (like if the raikage or danzou have no hatred) beaen them
look at what did sasuke when he was sealed by danzou ! he should have lost the fight , but hatred .... it just works like a pvp trinket in wow


did I say that Sage Mode=God Mode? nope, I simply compared it to sasuke's powers. But naruto theoretically CAN achieve God Mode, by which I mean Sage mode + Kyuubi mode :)
believe it or not, Raikage's motive was not hatred, it was his love for killer bee (though I still don't like this "think-with-muscle" idiot)

pvp tirnket in wow - haha lmao :D

oh and deva was doing that "fight as if to kill, so that you capture your opponent" thing

[SuperSaiyaMan]

the prolem is that kishi is exagerating here ... hatred shoul be this way, however it is spammed in this manga
it might be quick and but it is just repeated every time sasuke needs it
And each time in the manga Sasuke has had a backlash from his hatred. He's either nearly killed himself, blinds himself, etc.

[Prince Sasuke]

And each time in the manga Sasuke has had a backlash from his hatred. He's either nearly killed himself, blinds himself, etc.

Haterd dosen't kill sasuke or make him go blind any faster. Its just more detemination to accomplish his goals.

[Syphin]

^You right, it's actually his over use of his Sharingan abilities that causes Sasuke to hurt himself.

[jdw]

I disagree, "hatred" isn't some "power-up" or "hax" as you proclaim it to be, it's just that you make it out to be that way through persistent references on this thread. If "hatred" were really a power-up in the sense that it allows Sasuke to defeat his opponents, then the "will of fire" has done much more in terms of accomplishments and achievements. I'm going to put Lee and Jiraiya aside since I'm not too sure about their motivation and their belief of the "will of fire". Jiraiya seems to care less about those things and more about "peace" whereas Rock Lee just had hardwork ethic, but both still managed to do feats with sheer willpower. However, I will bring back the Hokage examples and Naruto as I've pointed out earlier in chapter 133.

Naruto was able to defeat Gaara after he realized that protecting his friends was important. What's interesting is that Naruto was not able to defeat Gaara with intelligence, but only after he fought to protect his friends without any logic. Although Naruto usually draws on kyuubi chakra, this was not indicated in this chapter. there are distinct characteristics Naruto takes on when drawing external chakra, when the eyes turn red with slits with red chakra. however, this wasn't the case in the chapter I provided above. This was the "will of fire" and it was specifically referenced in the chapter. This was not some minute increase in power, it was very significant as witnessed by Sasuke and again, in congruence to the theme of protecting people in that chapter. The chapter narration stresses that willingness to protect on the same page I linked earlier.
( http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/133/15/ )

Whereas, Sasuke's "hatred" was only attributed to strength during this fight with Danzou and even that has debatable circumstances. "hatred" was only introduced in the Kage fights-when Sasuke charged at the Raikage"-but it wasn't seen as something directly giving him strength. Madara mentioned that "hatred" is Sasuke's nindo, ally, and gives him strength in the sense that it drives him to become stronger.
(http://read.mangashare.com/Naruto/chapter-462/page016.html)
nonetheless, nobody was complaining about hatred being a "hax" or giving him strength at that time. this was necessary as I've argued before, that "hatred" as a anti-ideology to the "will of fire" needed to be introduced. therefore, these really isn't enough to suggest that Sasuke continously uses "hatred" as a factor that changes the outcome of battles, I think the "will of fire" still holds that title. maybe if there are two or three more fights where it is obviously clear, I might agree, but for the chapter you are referring to, it is debatable.


"hatred" is only a "hax" because you make it out to be and because people constantly post on the subject, we are easily misled into thinking this as well. however, in context of the manga, it is nothing except motivation and Sasuke's nindo, just as the "will of fire". I don't criticize the "will of fire" nor do I do the same with "hatred" because they are in essence, just encouraging ideologies that provide motivation which is the best force multiplier for any soldier as they say in the military. who better to use that ideology of hatred against, than Danzou the main reason for Sasuke's problem?

Too many words. I'll let Madara speak for me.

http://img709.imageshack.us/img709/3622/hatred.jpg

[Bonfire01]

I think Kishi has displayed both Hatred and Konaha's "will of fire" in very similar veins. It's allowed people to go beyond their limits in a given fight and IMO people are just more focussed on hatred at the moment because it is prominent in the arc and has been used as a plot tool to advance Sasuke rapidly in a limited number of chapters because he was so far behind Naruto...

The examples of how Sasuke's hatred has been seen to improve him are already listed and I agree but regarding the will of fire we've seen some pretty impressive things, esp from Naruto but mostly in part 1 unfortunately. He's been a bit fo a lame duck in part 2 :). I guess you could say him stuffing down Sakura's soldier mud balls and completing FRS in such a short time was, to a degree, an expression of his will of fire as he did it to be allowed to go and help his friends.

Naruto vs Gaara where he overcame his fear and whipped up a LOT of clones THEN summoned Bunta without, as far as I can tell, using Kubi chakra and Naruto completing the rasengan mid fight to save Tsunade are good examples of where he has gone beyond his limits or completed a complex technique mid fight because of his will of fire. Sarutobi stopping Orochimaru also comes to mind as a good example of someone going beyond their limits because of thwe will of fire and there are plenty more examples kicking around.

A lot of Naruto's major fights were won after a declaration of determination then finding more chakra from somewhere and then beating someone who should have been too much for him.

Also worth remembering that, for some time, hatred powered up Naruto via Kubi expression and, argueably, Gaara used hatred to bring out the Shakkaku, so it's not only something Sasuke has going for him, just something he is very focussed on lately.

The difference in how the two expressions of resolve have been handled is, IMO, purely about how rapidly Kishi needed to show improvement in the relevant character.

Finally.... I can confidently predict the will of fire will win in the end :).

[LnDRash]

^You right, it's actually his over use of his Sharingan abilities that causes Sasuke to hurt himself.

And what drives him to overuse those abilities ? Obviously his hatred and anger.

[Darth Executor]

believe it or not, Raikage's motive was not hatred, it was his love for killer bee (though I still don't like this "think-with-muscle" idiot)


Sasuke and Raikage's motivations are virtually identical, so if Raikage is driven by love, so is Sasuke. Also, you are wrong to say that the two are mutually exclusive. Love is what caused the hatred they have in the first place, so it's accurate to say that love for their brothers is what fuelled their anger.

[Delbi]

As of right now, the "hatred" within Sasuke, is certaily more powerful than the Will of Fire, but they aren't really comparable.

The Will of Fire, is the belief system of Konoha. It is their religion, their motivation so to speak. In essence, it is something that the Konoha ninja possess in their minds.

Jiraiya and Lee willed themselves to do things that should have been physically impossible, the power of the "concious" mind in Jiraiya's case, and the "unconcious" one in Lee's were used for their feats.

Sasuke's "hatred" is literally tied to his chakra, and in a sense, it is his chakra.

We've known that Sasuke has always had a dark spirit, the CS was the first illusion to this.

Then, the Kyuubi talked about his chakra being even more sinister than it's own.

Lastly, Karin tells us about how his chakra has changed, and now it's even colder than it was with the cursed seal.

And Madara has confirmed for us, that Sasuke's hatred has now made him more powerful.

Whereas the Will of Fire is mental, Sasuke's hatred is spiritual. His hatred, is making his spirit stronger, making it more sinister, more potent. His chakra then, by virtue of being made up of physical and spiritual energy, is thus also more potent.

In hindsight, Sasuke is just making his chakra more powerful. His killing intent, is rising. Many strong shinobi are said to have powerful chakras, so its really no surprise, that Sasuke, being very very powerful, would also have very powerful chakra.

[Plyr88]

People are comparing hatred and will of fire when they aren't used in the same way. The will of fire is used as motivation in the way sports teams and sports fans motivate themselves when they are about to play a game.

I'm sure we all know fans who like a certain team and get really hyped up when that team plays and wins. It's like a boost in confidence. Konoha is like a team and the will of fire boosts the spirit and confidence of it's shinobi.

When Naruto fought Gaara and was scared at first. The will of fire boosted his spirit and gave him back confidence. Before, when Naruto was scared, Naruto had trouble invoking the Kyuubi chakra (something he has down before without trouble). It's the same confidence boost that let Shikamaru face Hidan and Kakuzu without fear.

Sasuke and the hatred thing, on the other hand, is a different story. He is not invoking powers and abilities he was used to using beforehand. He is invoking new powers altogether. That's completely different and it's the prime reason why the hatred thing is so silly. Don't compare Sasuke's hatred with Naruto's will of fire because they do different things.

Will of Fire - Gives you the confidence boost so you can use your known abilities without worry
Hatred - Powers you up from nowhere

[zagorka]

Someone should tell Kishi, this isn't Star Wars. :/

This is how I understand it. This isn't something that deserves too much depth in my opinion.

Will of Fire: Relative goodness, maybe.

Hatred: Hatred.

Kishi is just making an excuse for Sasuke's power becoming stronger. I can accept Sasuke's chakra becoming more "evil", but not more powerful. Chakra is the combination of spiritual/physical energy. The more evil one is in their spirit, well... That changes the composition of one's chakra. Possibly making it more terrifying to be around. Having Sasuke become more powerful because of the hatred is just a stupid way to make him stronger. If anything it should be Sasuke's constant battling and he's using his chakra like never before. That is what should be making him stronger. Not his evilness.

[Zatono]

And what drives him to overuse those abilities ? Obviously his hatred and anger.

Really? I always thought it was his lack of creativity and largely inflated ego that made him want to overuse his abilities. He's given out Tsukuyomi's and Amaterasu's like candy, and now Susano'o too?

[kisame123]

Too many words. I'll let Madara speak for me.

http://img709.imageshack.us/img709/3622/hatred.jpg
since you don't want to read, I'll put it into simpler words.

susanoo was perfected giving Sasuke's physical body protection just the page before that. through sheer willpower, in this case "hatred", he was able to summon susanoo and perfect it. By perfecting susanoo, he was able to gain absolute protection, distance&damage Danzou, and thus forcing him to release the technique.
http://mangastream.com/read/naruto/478-26/8

Sasuke's also shown resistance to Orochimaru's curse seal before it was contained by Kakashi's sealing jutsu.
http://read.mangashare.com/Naruto/chapter-068/page005.html

likewise, I've already pointed out an occassion where Naruto draws on power from the "will of fire". Naruto's willingness to protect his friends caused his body to react.
http://read.mangashare.com/naruto/chapter-133/page015.html

[Prince Sasuke]

And what drives him to overuse those abilities ? Obviously his hatred and anger.
...Or it could be that everyone he has faced in part 2 are Kagelevel opponents and need to use those abilites to live.

[vizardichigo]

None is more powerful but because Kishi loves Sasuke like his own son, whatever side he is on will prevail..Dont take it too seriously..

[jdw]

since you don't want to read, I'll put it into simpler words.

susanoo was perfected giving Sasuke's physical body protection just the page before that. through sheer willpower, in this case "hatred", he was able to summon susanoo and perfect it. By perfecting susanoo, he was able to gain absolute protection, distance&damage Danzou, and thus forcing him to release the technique.
http://mangastream.com/read/naruto/478-26/8

Sasuke's also shown resistance to Orochimaru's curse seal before it was contained by Kakashi's sealing jutsu.
http://read.mangashare.com/Naruto/chapter-068/page005.html

likewise, I've already pointed out an occassion where Naruto draws on power from the "will of fire". Naruto's willingness to protect his friends caused his body to react.
http://read.mangashare.com/naruto/chapter-133/page015.html

More words that are not really saying much. The manga has never placed the Will of Fire on the level of the Sasuke's Power of Hatred. You are doing your noble best, but your "willpower of invention" is not enough for the task.

http://img709.imageshack.us/img709/3622/hatred.jpg

***I basically cosign onto the post below. I am not sure about it actually being spiritual energy, but Delbi's point is essentially the heart of the matter.

[Delbi]

Again, the "Will of Fire" is not comparable to Sasuke's hatred.

Sasuke's hatred, is literally a power that can be measured. All the Will of Fire is, is a belief. Someone's "Will of Fire" is often said to be their "fighting spirit", but in actuallity, its just their mental ability to overcome, fear, pain, and Jiraiya's case, death. The Will of Fire simply pushes one to do great things, to overcome obsticles within oneself.

Sasuke's "hatred" for what its worth, is his actual spiritual energy. His spiritual energy has changed, and thus so has his chakra. The Will of Fire has nothing to do with chakra, Sasuke's hatred does.

[Bonfire01]

Again, the "Will of Fire" is not comparable to Sasuke's hatred.

Sasuke's hatred, is literally a power that can be measured. All the Will of Fire is, is a belief. Someone's "Will of Fire" is often said to be their "fighting spirit", but in actuallity, its just their mental ability to overcome, fear, pain, and Jiraiya's case, death. The Will of Fire simply pushes one to do great things, to overcome obsticles within oneself.

Sasuke's "hatred" for what its worth, is his actual spiritual energy. His spiritual energy has changed, and thus so has his chakra. The Will of Fire has nothing to do with chakra, Sasuke's hatred does.

Not sure I agree. I always assumed Naruto's !will of fire" was his determination which often leads to him finding additional Chakra or recovering from a beating to keep fighting or miraculously finishing a jutsu (like Rasengan when defending Tsunade).

A good example would be his first use of FRS in a fight. He was tired from training, Yamato stated he had barely managed to do 2 in his last training session but after thinking about his pursuit of Sasuke and his determination (will of fire) he managed to pull out 3 FRS and win the fight blowing away a Kage level Shinobi.

So, if we consider that kind of thing to be an expression of Naruto's will of fire it's pretty much the same as Sasukes Hatred no jutsu.

Also Jiraya restarting his heart for a few seconds and Lee fighting on whilst unconscious are presumably examples of their determination ergo will of fire.

As to which is "stronger" I still think they are the same thing just with a different focus. Both show determination, strength of will and mind over matter leading to them going past their limit and doing something amazing. Just one is because Sasuke is having a hissy fit and the other is because Naruto is into hippie love :)

[LnDRash]

...Or it could be that everyone he has faced in part 2 are Kagelevel opponents and need to use those abilites to live.

And why is he facing such opponents? Answer: Because he chose this way.

Why did he chose this way? Answer: because of his hatred and anger.

[Zatono]

Why did he chose this way? Answer: because of his hatred and anger.

You know, in retrospect, you can blame everything that's happened in this manga on hatred and anger.
[hr]

Sasuke's "hatred" for what its worth, is his actual spiritual energy. His spiritual energy has changed, and thus so has his chakra. The Will of Fire has nothing to do with chakra, Sasuke's hatred does.

I have to say that this hatred thing is really getting annoying because it's not only changing his chakra, it's increasing his chakra. Soon he'll probably be at a chakra level comparable to the Raikage, if he's not already there.

[LnDRash]

The point is, Sasuke had a choice. He could let go of the hatred and stay in Konoha, but he chose to follow the path of hatred instead. This path made him powerful but at what cost ? He got many powerful abilities but by using them he harms himself (Susanoo drains lifeforce, MS corrodes his vision). Problem is, the same path that lead him to those abilities now forces him to use them... and it will only get worse.

If he stays on the path of hatred, he will only end up destroying himself. Thats why power aquired through the will of fire is superior in the end.

[Bonfire01]

You know, in retrospect, you can blame everything that's happened in this manga on hatred and anger.
<hr noshade size="1">


I have to say that this hatred thing is really getting annoying because it's not only changing his chakra, it's increasing his chakra. Soon he'll probably be at a chakra level comparable to the Raikage, if he's not already there.

No reason to think Sasuke is even close to the Raikage in chakra level. He has not done a vast ammount more in his fight with Danzou than he did in his fight with Itachi. Especially since someone told me recently that Susanoo sucks on his life force not his chakra according to one of the data books.

I think of his hatred allowing him to push his body all the way to his limit. In several places the idea of converting stamina into chakra is mentioned so because of his hatred Sasuke is able to really push his body to its limit.

Also with a "stronger" (more focuassed at least since he is all hatred now) mind and training his body you would think he would be increasing his chakra levels a bit anyway.

Until anything is stated about it directly or he starts pumping out a lot more techniques in a fight I don't think his increase in chakra brings him anywhere near proper chakra beasts like Naruto, Raikage, Bee, Kisame etc.

[Delbi]

Not sure I agree. I always assumed Naruto's !will of fire" was his determination which often leads to him finding additional Chakra or recovering from a beating to keep fighting or miraculously finishing a jutsu (like Rasengan when defending Tsunade).

A good example would be his first use of FRS in a fight. He was tired from training, Yamato stated he had barely managed to do 2 in his last training session but after thinking about his pursuit of Sasuke and his determination (will of fire) he managed to pull out 3 FRS and win the fight blowing away a Kage level Shinobi.

So, if we consider that kind of thing to be an expression of Naruto's will of fire it's pretty much the same as Sasukes Hatred no jutsu.

Also Jiraya restarting his heart for a few seconds and Lee fighting on whilst unconscious are presumably examples of their determination ergo will of fire.

As to which is "stronger" I still think they are the same thing just with a different focus. Both show determination, strength of will and mind over matter leading to them going past their limit and doing something amazing. Just one is because Sasuke is having a hissy fit and the other is because Naruto is into hippie love :)

When fighting Kakazu, Naruto was drawing from the Kyuubi's chakra the entire time. Re-read the fight, and you can clearly see his eyes are Kyuubified for nearly the whole thing. That has nothing to do with his Will of Fire, but the fact that he has the Kyuubi inside of him helping him.

As for Lee, his unconcious mind was so strong, that even when knocked out, his body, by reflex, knew to stand up and fight.

Jiraiya, for what it's worth, was having his own internal monologue in his brain after his heart stopped. The brain continues to function after the heart stops for about 5 minutes. He then used his brain, to re-start his heart via what are electrical impulses probably backed by chakra, to get up. This was a testment of his conscious overriding his body.

Both of these examples, are examples of "Mind over matter" or the power that the mind holds over the body. Neither had to do with any type of "actual" spirt, but rather a metaphorical one. Sasuke's "hatred" again, is something that actually exists inside of him.

What Sasuke did, was quite literally use a force within his body, that force being his hatred fueled chakra, to break Danzou's seal, and make his jutsu stronger.

[SeventhPath]

The point is, Sasuke had a choice. He could let go of the hatred and stay in Konoha, but he chose to follow the path of hatred instead. This path made him powerful but at what cost ? He got many powerful abilities but by using them he harms himself (Susanoo drains lifeforce, MS corrodes his vision). Problem is, the same path that lead him to those abilities now forces him to use them... and it will only get worse.

If he stays on the path of hatred, he will only end up destroying himself. Thats why power aquired through the will of fire is superior in the end.

LnDRash, by the time of the final battle with Naruto (at the END of the manga), Sasuke will have EMS and he'll be in top shape - the strongest ninja bla bla bla.

Kishi overpowered Sasuke in ALL of Part 2 by rage/hatred - with no permanent drawback/disadvantage whatsoever.
Kishi didn't think this will of power - hatred metaphor through. And the incessant focus on Sasuke made hatred far stronger.
That's the limit of Kishi's planning - and it has nothing to do with convincingly showing the will of fire's superiority over hatred.

But don't worry - during that final Sasuke Naruto battle, Kishi will probably put a speech about how much better the will of fire is and expect us to believe it, despite showing the contrary throughout the entirety of Part 2.

[LnDRash]

True, he will get EMS, but EMS will only help him in the way of giving him some more abilities and restoring his vision. That dosn't change the fact that he makes more and more enemys and that Susanoo drains his lifeforce. In the end, he will have to pay the price.

[edit]Also you dont have to point out everywhere your belive that Sasuke is the main character now. This topic is about whats better: will of fire or hatred. For that reason it absolutely dosnt matter if Sasuke is the main character or not. Let us assume you are right and this Manga is all about Sasuke and Naruto is only a side character whos only role is to convert him in the end.

Why would Sasuke need to be converted if hatred, rage anger and all this stuff is so superior and fine ? Its obvious that in the end hatred would lead Sasuke only to his doom, thats why he needs saving in the first place.

It may end bad for him and he will pay the price for his hatred... or he will get his happy end and will be saved, it dosnt matter in this topic, since either way its will of fire > hatred.

[THM Nindo]

Basically, the power of hatred, is just like the Dark Side of the Force.
It's stronger, but we all know that in the end, the Light Side win, just like Naruto's Will will eventually overcome Sasuke's Hatred.

[M3J]

So far in the manga, examples of the will of fire have not been as useful as the examples of hatred. I am not saying hatred will always prove to be more powerful. Kisame123 posted saying that they were basically similar, wondering why people view the hatred differently from the Will of Fire, and I think they are similar in that they are motivating factors, but they are not similar in their reach and results, so far.

Sasuke's hatred has changed the outcomes of his own battles. It has allowed him to excel and proceed where others would have lost or died. The examples used by some of the will of fire were Lee fighting while unconscious, and Jiraiya willing himself back to life. The Will of Fire in those instances did not change the battle outcomes for Lee or Jiraiya. Both lost. Lee was still battered and broken. Jiraiya still died. Neither pulled off a miraculous victory or overcame intense jutsu and fought on like nothing happened at all.

The Will of fire has added some drama to battles in most cases, but Sasuke's hatred seems to be far more potent than that. It has become a force of its own to be reckoned with, and changes outcomes far beyond what the will of fire has done.

My earlier analogy stated that the Will of Fire is like drinking a Red Bull, and that Sasuke's power of hatred is like the power of the Hulk, which grows greater as the anger (hatred) of the Hulk grows greater. It seems to know no bounds.

Naruto's will of fire enabled him to beat Gaara, when he was scared to fight him in the first place. Naruto's will of fire made him be able to use rasengan and learn how to elementally recompose his chakra as well as add element to rasengan. I think Naruto's the only one whose will of fire allowed him to win. Gaara had hatred, but he still lost to Naruto.
I think will of fire is stronger because you're not just fighting for yourself, but for others. The desire to protect them is stronger, even stronger than self-preservation, so you will do anything you can do protect them. Naruto still kept going even after he couldn't move, until Sasuke told him he had things handled. With hatred, you just keep fighting for yourself, in hatred. So long as you think you won or got revenge, you probably wouldn't care if you died, and you might make more mistakes trying to kill the enemy. Hatred gives you power so long as you have hate, though same can be said about will of fire.
Despite the hatred Sasuke had for Itachi, he still stood equal chance with him, at best. Naruto's been outmatched, outnumbered, outtired, but will of fire made him not give up and always thinking few steps ahead.

This is me being biased though, as it was initially Naruto's will of fire that made me like this manga. Some of the things I pointed out for will of fire and hatred can be used on the opposite side, I think. O_O
[hr]

Basically, the power of hatred, is just like the Dark Side of the Force.
It's stronger, but we all know that in the end, the Light Side win, just like Naruto's Will will eventually overcome Sasuke's Hatred.

Dark side of the Force is a quicker way to power, easier. That's what I read anyway. So same could be said about hatred, easier to use than will of fire. Light side of the Force is more powerful, but harder to master and requires goodness and patience, will of fire is similar. It requires love and undying need for protection and thus gives more power.

[CBlitz]

its kinda like the will of an individual (hatred) vs. the will of many (WoF). You can only make it so far by yourself, which is what I think Kishi is trying to portray with Sasuke. His limit is his own hatred in a way

[benelori]

Naruto was a sloppy 2nd rate ninja, if it weren't for kyuubi or and his determination. His determination while not synoymous with the will of fire at first, it became just that, and helped him to evolve. Perfecting Rasengan, saving Sakura. the pein arc(even if deva realm owned him at first, in the last battle Naruto was clearly over him)...oh yeah sage mode...so all this powerups which are a result of hard training, will of fire, saving sasuke not killing him puts the will of fire on the same level as the hatred...
I had the impression, too that hatred is more powerful, but I think that's only becuz the fights, and mainly in sasuke's fights which are on a high level, they are spectacular, hatred is used a lot. Sasuke's hatred is more powerful than any will of fire at this point...but the fact that only sasuke is shown recently, shouldn't be ignored...

I have no doubt that will of fire is more powerful, or makes one more powerful...I mean I can't imagine the manga without happy end...that means the will of fire will win...what's interesting that kishi wraps hatred into a more powerful aura, even though along the story he leaves clear hints that will of fire is more powerful

[maaghms]

The difference is very simple.
Hatred = Sasuke’s training = becoming stronger over the long term = kishi’s lame excuse for his “sasuke and uchiha favoritism”.
Will of fire = last minute hax burst of energy in critical or life threatening situations.Thus, according to kishi, for sasuke, hatred serves much more than as a simple motivator; it can even replace the training altogether. Can “will of fire” replace training for Naruto? No. See the difference?

Food for thought:

Can hatred really make you stronger and more powerful? Well, according to Gould and Jackson, hatred or anger causes an automatic shift of attentional focus from the fight to the opponent. As a result of the increased arousal and the break in concentration, performance suffers. So, guys/gals, don’t ever listen when somebody tells you that hatred or anger can make you stronger. In fact, it has the opposite effect.

Ref:

Gould, D. & Jackson, A. (1980). Mental preparation strategies, cognitions, and strength performance. Journal of Sport Psychology, vol. 2, 329-339.

Weinberg, R. S. & Gould, D. (1995). Foundations of Sport and Exercise Psychology. Human Kinetics. Champaign, IL.

[Delbi]

Get someone pissed off enough and their body begins to increase it's adrenaline production two fold, giving them extra strength, stamina, speed, reactions time, etc.

If you can control your anger, you can use it to your advantage. Being angry but under control, is different than being angry and out of control.

So, IMO, being angry can certainly help you in a fight, you just have to know how to harness such anger. Proffessional athletes do this all the time.

[maaghms]

Disclaimer: Since I don’t want to risk going off-topic, this is the last reply I’m going to make regarding anger in this thread. :) I think this thread is about hatred vs will of fire. Although anger is somewhat related to hatred, it’s not the same. Anyway, here goes:


Get someone pissed off enough and their body begins to increase it's adrenaline production two fold, giving them extra strength, stamina, speed, reactions time, etc.


Bursts of adrenaline due to anger are at best temporary. It is true that anger can give you extra strength for short durations. But stamina? No way. It is an established fact that anger depletes your energy reserves very fast.

What’s the most important thing in fights? Making very fast critical judgments and decisions. A wrong decision, however small it may be, can cost you the battle and your life. What does anger do? It impairs your sense of judgment and reasoning. This can kill you in a real fight. (Raikage, anyone? He could have made a meatball out of Sasuke with his fantastic Raiton manipulation skills, but instead he went on to sacrifice his arm. Apparently, a Kage-level Ninja only knows Taijutsu. -_-;)

Let’s put it like this. Anger and hatred do give you a temporary boost in energy. But that boost in energy is mostly wasted in being too emotional about your opponent instead of thinking about the fight.


If you can control your anger, you can use it to your advantage. Being angry but under control, is different than being angry and out of control. Anger, whether it’s controlled or not, is still anger. Anger is one of basic animalistic emotions which affect your performance during your sports in a negative way. Not only anger, other emotions such as hatred (loathing), jealousy, fear and love can affect the fight negatively. Especially, anger is useless in very complex fights such as the ones we see in Narutoverse. We have all those “making seals”, izanagi, etc. Figuring them out during a fight requires you to maintain your calm.


So, IMO, being angry can certainly help you in a fight, you just have to know how to harness such anger. Proffessional athletes do this all the time. No, they don’t. In fights or sports, the ability to relax and use as little energy as possible to achieve maximum results is the most important thing. This is the essence of pacing. All professional athletes know how to pace themselves. You are confusing the concepts of anger and focus which are totally different. To achieve 100% focus, you have to be calm in your inner mind. You go to any dojo. The first advice we give to newcomers is: “Calm down and focus. Relax”. I have never seen any fight instructor giving their students the advice: “Become angry. More and more angry. Use the power of your hatred!”

Name any extremely successful fighter/sportsmen who have won many championships and medals. They are very calm and unemotional during their performance. You want examples?
Royce Gracie: Who doesn’t know him? He’s one of the best mixed martial arts champions in the world. Do you see him becoming angry during his fights? No. He is one of the calmest individuals you could ever find.
Lloyd Winter who is one of the greatest sprint coaches in history, in his 35-year coaching career, produced 102 All-Americans at San Jose State University and 27 of them became Olympians. He is credited with developing the fastest athletes in track and field history. His advice? It goes something along the lines of: “Calm down and relax for maximum performance. If you are tense (or angry), you will be slower, move awkwardly, tire more quickly, have fears and anxieties and lose your focus.”Enough said.

P.S: Regarding anger or hatred in fights/sports, please don’t even think about WWE or whatever. I don’t consider it “sports” or “real fights” :amuse. It is nothing more than entertainment. Sure you can see those guys in WWE using their anger or hatred for fighting. But that’s not real fighting. That’s just drama. Whether you find that entertaining or not, is a different subject altogether.

[Delbi]

Bursts of adrenaline due to anger are at best temporary. It is true that anger can give you extra strength for short durations. But stamina? No way. It is an established fact that anger depletes your energy reserves very fast.

What’s the most important thing in fights? Making very fast critical judgments and decisions. A wrong decision, however small it may be, can cost you the battle and your life. What does anger do? It impairs your sense of judgment and reasoning. This can kill you in a real fight. (Raikage, anyone? He could have made a meatball out of Sasuke with his fantastic Raiton manipulation skills, but instead he went on to sacrifice his arm. Apparently, a Kage-level Ninja only knows Taijutsu. -_-;)

Let’s put it like this. Anger and hatred do give you a temporary boost in energy. But that boost in energy is mostly wasted in being too emotional about your opponent instead of thinking about the fight.

Anger, whether it’s controlled or not, is still anger. Anger is one of basic animalistic emotions which affect your performance during your sports in a negative way. Not only anger, other emotions such as hatred (loathing), jealousy, fear and love can affect the fight negatively. Especially, anger is useless in very complex fights such as the ones we see in Narutoverse. We have all those “making seals”, izanagi, etc. Figuring them out during a fight requires you to maintain your calm.

No, they don’t. In fights or sports, the ability to relax and use as little energy as possible to achieve maximum results is the most important thing. This is the essence of pacing. All professional athletes know how to pace themselves. You are confusing the concepts of anger and focus which are totally different. To achieve 100% focus, you have to be calm in your inner mind. You go to any dojo. The first advice we give to newcomers is: “Calm down and focus. Relax”. I have never seen any fight instructor giving their students the advice: “Become angry. More and more angry. Use the power of your hatred!”

Name any extremely successful fighter/sportsmen who have won many championships and medals. They are very calm and unemotional during their performance. You want examples?
Royce Gracie: Who doesn’t know him? He’s one of the best mixed martial arts champions in the world. Do you see him becoming angry during his fights? No. He is one of the calmest individuals you could ever find.
Lloyd Winter who is one of the greatest sprint coaches in history, in his 35-year coaching career, produced 102 All-Americans at San Jose State University and 27 of them became Olympians. He is credited with developing the fastest athletes in track and field history. His advice? It goes something along the lines of: “Calm down and relax for maximum performance. If you are tense (or angry), you will be slower, move awkwardly, tire more quickly, have fears and anxieties and lose your focus.”Enough said.

P.S: Regarding anger or hatred in fights/sports, please don’t even think about WWE or whatever. I don’t consider it “sports” or “real fights” :amuse. It is nothing more than entertainment. Sure you can see those guys in WWE using their anger or hatred for fighting. But that’s not real fighting. That’s just drama. Whether you find that entertaining or not, is a different subject altogether.

Umm, first off, I played footnall and lacrosse in high school and now play lacrosse in college, and I also practice MMA, I think fake wrestling is for losers. Just thought I'd get that out of the way.

Also, if you knew anything about sports or fighting, you'd know that getting psyched up prior to an event, helps you. Again, I'm talking about controlled anger. If you can't control your emotions, then you will make mistakes, if you know how to control them however, you won't.

Vs. Danzou, Sasuke is giving us a perfect example as to how to harness your anger for good. He's perfectly analyzing Danzou's attacks, breaking through them, and basically shoving everything down his throat. All while he's as angry as he's ever been.

Boosting your adrenline won't wear you out if your in shape. There's a difference between an athelete having an adreneline boost, and a non-athelte.

Also, when you energy is depleted, adreneline can push you beyond your limits, basically boosting your stamina.

As for the focus thing, yes you need to be calm, but if you understand how to channel your emotions, you can greatly benefit from it.

As for an MMA fighter who use anger when they fight, shit, Chuck Liddell, Rampage Jackson, Houston Alexander, etc. All these guys used focused rage to knock the living shit out of people.

These are really just too different schools of thinking. For my entire sports career, I've been told to get angry when I play, and it's helped. In football the angrier I got, the harder I hit, the faster I ran, the more plays I made. Being calm all the time, isn't neccessarily the best thing to do, theres is something called being too relaxed. You have to be on your toes, if your too relaxed, you can get knocked the fuck out lol.

[Smokes]

In the 479/480 chapters thread, a discussion about hatred and will of fire was starting.
Some people think that in this manga hatred brings more power than will of fire in fight (mainly because of "Sasuke unlimited power") and others don't.

In my opinion, Hatred did not achieve more amazing feats than Will of Fire in fight, nor outside the fight. Sasuke brought quite nothing, yeah he escaped death from Danzou with a full Susano'o, but Naruto did somehting similar in the past so...

Jdw thinks that hatred is more powerful or useful (if I understand well) in battle, that Will of Fire is just like a temporary boost while hatred is much more than that. Some examples : Lee fought while he was unconscious but he ended with bones shattered. Jiraya came back from the death for a few seconds in order to write the code on the back of Fukasaku, but he lost after all etc

So, what do you think ?

What exactly is The Will of Fire? Is there a definition somewhere? If it just boils down to a determination to never give up, then Madara has it too. Or is it a determination to protect the village above everything else, in which case, neither Sakura or Naruto have it.

What about Kimimaro and what he did? Or Gaara's speech comparing Kimimaro's motivation to Lee's.

This seems to be a comparison of something that one person has, to something that nearly everybody has. The Will of Fire is about as unique to anyone as Naruto's accelerated healing is to him. It may have meant something special at one point, but now it's practically standard with every new character......and some old ones too. It just seems to be semantics. When it comes to the will of ninja from Konoha, it's the will of fire, and when other people beat back death or sacrifice themselves for others, we just don't call it anything.

You really need a definition for this, I think, because the Will of Fire seems to amount to just clever marketing, but nothing really unique to Konoha.....except for the trademarked phrase.

[Delbi]

What exactly is The Will of Fire? Is there a definition somewhere? If it just boils down to a determination to never give up, then Madara has it too. Or is it a determination to protect the village above everything else, in which case, neither Sakura or Naruto have it.


The Will of Fire is the belief system of Konoha. It is their religion, and their motivation so to speak.

When Sarturobi talks about the Will of Fire in his shinobi, he is basically making an illusion to their "fighting spirit" there willingness to never give up, and to protect their people at all costs.

This "fighting spirit", is nothing but the power of one's mind, their willpower.

Essentially, its the power of the mind over the body in the instances where shinobi use it to their advantage in a fight. In essence though, they are just pushing themselves to their limits.

Examples: Naruto not giving up while fighting Neji and Gaara. His mind took control, and he summoned the Kyuubi's chakra to defeat them both.

When Lee fought Gaara. Even though his body was damaged and he was unconcious, the unconcious part of his mind knew he had to stand up and fight as a shinobi. His will was so strong, that even when knocked out his body knew what to do.

Jiraiya willing himself back to life. Some way or another, after his heart stopped, his brain made it turn back on. (My guess is with whatever chakra he had left, and the electrical impluses produced in his body0. With his last breath, Jiraiya then gave the message to Pa and died.

Sasuke's "hatred", is his actual spiritual energy that makes up half his chakra. It's something that can literally be measured and felt, whereas teh Will of Fire can not.

By virtue of Sasuke's "spirit" becoming darker, by virture of his "hatred" becoming stronger, his chakra capacity has increased, and so has it's potency.

I hope that made things clear :)

[Smokes]

The Will of Fire is the belief system of Konoha. It is their religion, and their motivation so to speak.

When Sarturobi talks about the Will of Fire in his shinobi, he is basically making an illusion to their "fighting spirit" there willingness to never give up, and to protect their people at all costs.

This "fighting spirit", is nothing but the power of one's mind, their willpower.

Essentially, its the power of the mind over the body in the instances where shinobi use it to their advantage in a fight. In essence though, they are just pushing themselves to their limits.

Examples: Naruto not giving up while fighting Neji and Gaara. His mind took control, and he summoned the Kyuubi's chakra to defeat them both.

When Lee fought Gaara. Even though his body was damaged and he was unconcious, the unconcious part of his mind knew he had to stand up and fight as a shinobi. His will was so strong, that even when knocked out his body knew what to do.

Jiraiya willing himself back to life. Some way or another, after his heart stopped, his brain made it turn back on. (My guess is with whatever chakra he had left, and the electrical impluses produced in his body0. With his last breath, Jiraiya then gave the message to Pa and died.

Sasuke's "hatred", is his actual spiritual energy that makes up half his chakra. It's something that can literally be measured and felt, whereas teh Will of Fire can not.

By virtue of Sasuke's "spirit" becoming darker, by virture of his "hatred" becoming stronger, his chakra capacity has increased, and so has it's potency.

I hope that made things clear :)

If your definition is right, then the will of fire is nothing special. What strong characters don't have fighting spirit or strong will power? Sasuke has that too. It seems we are just giving there's a name and not giving a name to anyone else's. I honestly think it was supposed to be a means to draw a parallel with the badies, ala Haku, Kimimaro, Pain and such, but it got lost in the shuffle and now it's just a joke and means for criticism. Like Jaraiya coming back. "how hax of him to regain consciousness and write that note, he doesn't even have any hate."

I don't know about hatred being half of Sasuke's chakra. IMO, his chakra use is nebulous. So far he has techniques that he's just used chakra, he's used hate, he's used chakra then hate and chakra and hate, and somewhere in there susano'o could be using his life force....apparently in a way that leaves him just fine for the time being. Basically it just boils down to him not having any definable limits. If the will of fire speaks to this will power and determination, then Sasuke's hate isn't comparable to it, but built on it.

Will of Fire is just a phrase used to describe in Konoha what all the strong fighters have already. They may worship it as an ideology, but it's not something that is exclusive to them. So the comparison still makes no sense to me. If Kishi is trying to make it look special, he has failed miserably. LOL....a special power that they use to get slaughtered and then die with a smile on their face and hope in their hearts, now that's something special to Konoha.

[M3J]

Hatred and will of fire to me just gives the person inner strength to keep fighting.
Consider this scenario: Sasuke is tired, hurt, and low of chakra. He hasn't much strength to keep fighting. But hatred, hating the enemy so much, he comes up with the will to keep fighting, forcibly draw out his chakra and push himself. His desire to beat/kill the enemy gives him the strength to still keep going. It's like adrenaline surge. In my opinion, it doesn't give Sasuke more power, but makes him determined to win and not admit defeat. It's like how despite being so low on chakra, his hatred for Itachi kept him fighting so he could beat him, he kept forcibly bringing out his chakra. Hatred makes the person use more strength than necessary.
Same with will of fire, in my opinion. Makes the person more determined to win, keep them fighting despite pain and fatigue. Refusal to quit no matter what. Will of fire makes the person keep fighting until he gets what he wants, like Naruto getting Sakura safe from Gaara.

[khar2]

Hatred and will of fire to me just gives the person inner strength to keep fighting.
Consider this scenario: Sasuke is tired, hurt, and low of chakra. He hasn't much strength to keep fighting. But hatred, hating the enemy so much, he comes up with the will to keep fighting, forcibly draw out his chakra and push himself. His desire to beat/kill the enemy gives him the strength to still keep going. It's like adrenaline surge. In my opinion, it doesn't give Sasuke more power, but makes him determined to win and not admit defeat. It's like how despite being so low on chakra, his hatred for Itachi kept him fighting so he could beat him, he kept forcibly bringing out his chakra. Hatred makes the person use more strength than necessary.
Same with will of fire, in my opinion. Makes the person more determined to win, keep them fighting despite pain and fatigue. Refusal to quit no matter what. Will of fire makes the person keep fighting until he gets what he wants, like Naruto getting Sakura safe from Gaara.

i mine opinon, most sane (normal) answer
i mean with all the fuss guys its like you dont live in a same world as me, i mean dont you never feel emotions while playing sports, or when you are in a street fight:p
i mean everyone has its trigger and fuel, as i like to call it our nitro, to bust us in some situations:D (mine are pride and anger)

i mean:tem

[Delbi]

The Will of Fire has to do with one's mind, while Sasuke's "hatred" has to do with his spirit. They are as different as night and day really.

[khar2]

The Will of Fire has to do with one's mind, while Sasuke's "hatred" has to do with his spirit. They are as different as night and day really.

ok thats your opinion, i dont agree
one's spirit and state of mind are same thing, hence saying someone has good aura, so someone is gloving good energie
so sasukes state of mind is wreck, lots of mixed feelings, and dark thought so thats why i think karin and company say that he is in darkness

its not like if sasuke stops hating or if naruto becomes evil that they will loose half of strength or chakra, its more like they will lose they edge thats highers their limits

[Delbi]

ok thats your opinion, i dont agree
one's spirit and state of mind are same thing, hence saying someone has good aura, so someone is gloving good energie
so sasukes state of mind is wreck, lots of mixed feelings, and dark thought so thats why i think karin and company say that he is in darkness

its not like if sasuke stops hating or if naruto becomes evil that they will loose half of strength or chakra, its more like they will lose they edge thats highers their limits

Sasuke's chakra has more than doubled ever since his hatred power-up. And no amount of "mind power", which is the Will of Fire, would allow someone to break the seal that Sasuke broke.

Again, the Will of Fire is nothing but the belief system that runs through Konoha, all Konoha shinobi have it, it's their patriotism, their religion, etc. Sasuke's "hatred" is unique to him and him only.

[maaghms]

First of all, I totally agree with Smokes in that “will of fire” is a pretty silly concept and is nothing special. It is just used by Kishi to hype certain characters.

I would define “will of fire” as:

“The will power that ninjas in the land of fire possess (especially in matters concerning the welfare of the village)”.

But it does not mean that ninjas in other nations and villages don’t have such fierce will power. Then how do we label the ninjas’ will power in the land of wind for example? Perhaps, we can call that “will of wind” or something?

Even villains such as Madara and Pain possess tremendous will power. So what to label them? The problem is that Kishi is only singling out Konoha and saying “will of fire”.

Sasuke also has a lot of will power. But that will power is not called “will of fire” simply because he is a missing-nin and does not belong to Konoha.

Allow me to explain the simplest relationship between will of fire and hatred:

Hatred gives Sasuke his will power. Hatred and revenge strengthens Sasuke’s will power.

For Naruto, love (for Sasuke) increases his tremendous will power to chase after sasuke even after numerous rejections. Since Naruto is a ninja in the land of fire, we call that will power “will of fire”.

But it doesn’t mean that only love can be used to strengthened “will of fire”. When Naruto was fighting Pain, he was feeling a very strong emotion (anger + hatred) because Pain murdered Jiraiya. That anger and hatred strengthened Naruto’s will power, i.e. “will of fire”.

In conclusion:

Hatred is a type of emotion that can be used as a motivator whereas “will of x” is a firm decision to continue persisting despite challenges due to that motivation. But there are many alternative motivators to increase one’s will power. Such motivators include love, hatred, security, hunger, survival, etc. Whichever of those motivators people in Konoha use, we call that “will of fire”. But Kishi did not give a name for the will power possessed by other people not from Konoha. Why? Most probably to hype certain Ninjas in Konoha who are supposed to be “the good guys”.

Hatred = emotion --> can be used as a motivator
Love = emotion --> can be used as a motivator
Any emotion --> can be used as a motivator

Will of x = a firm decision due to any motivator, where x = fire, wind, uchiha, etc.

So, that’s it folks. To obtain will power, people use different emotions (as motivators) as listed above. But IMO, the strongest person is the person who can generate will power without resorting to any cheap emotion.

That’s why you can see that people who like to use hatred as a motivator to generate their will power will feel very “empty” after their revenge has been fulfilled. This is due the fact that after the revenge has been carried out, their main motivation, i.e. hatred, would also disappear. This means that their will power will also disappear. Hence the reason for feeling “empty”.

Addition

Comparing hatred and will of fire, IMO, is not valid. It's like comparing petrol and car. Petrol is something a car has to burn to get it moving.

In the same token, hatred is an emotion. Will power and will of fire are not emotions. Will power (including will of fire) is a decision (to persist) that has been brought about a certain motivation. Everybody has a certain degree of will power, good guys or not. But the way people generate will power can be different.

[benelori]

So, that’s it folks. To obtain will power, people use different emotions (as motivators) as listed above. But IMO, the strongest person is the person who can generate will power without resorting to any cheap emotion.


Cheap emotion...what's that...there's no cheap emotion...and if U have will power...that is directed to something:"I want to do x"...but why would someone do x at all...becuz it holds some importance to him, importance which is closely related to an emotion of any kind...
Will power cannot be seperated from emotions...they influence each other, and they coexist

[maaghms]

Cheap emotion...what's that...there's no cheap emotion...and if U have will power...that is directed to something:"I want to do x"...but why would someone do x at all...becuz it holds some importance to him, importance which is closely related to an emotion of any kind...

“Cheap” Emotions:
Hatred
Anger
Jealousy
ContemptWhat’s cheap:
You have a very powerful willpower to kill/defeat somebody because of extreme anger/hatred (as the motivator), that’s cheap.

What’s not cheap:
You generate the will power not to kill the above person because it’s not right thing to do. That’s not cheap emotion.

Another example of what's not cheap emotion:

You and another guy are lost in a desert. There is only one gulp of water in your water bottle. You generate the will power from your inner self to give the water to the other person instead of drinking yourself. Do you feel angry towards the other person? No. Do you feel love towards the other person? No. Hatred? Jealousy? Contempt? No. Then where did this will power comes from? The will power comes from your motivation of personal responsibility and accountability. That’s not cheap emotion.


Will power cannot be seperated from emotions...they influence each other, and they coexistIt depends on the degree of how much you let your emotions to control youself. (Non-human) animals are controlled 100% by emotions, lust and instinct. Humans have the intelligence and the willpower to do the right thing even though it's against your emotions. So, will power can go against your emotions, if you're strong. That's what true strength is, at least IMO. Anybody can get angry and do things you wouldn't normally (dare to) do. But it takes will power to do those challenging things without feeling any anger or love.

[benelori]

“Cheap” Emotions:

Hatred
Anger
Jealousy
Contempt What’s cheap:
You have a very powerful willpower to kill/defeat somebody because of extreme anger/hatred (as the motivator), that’s cheap.

What’s not cheap:
You generate the will power not to kill the above person because it’s not right thing to do. That’s not cheap emotion.

Another example of what's not cheap emotion:

You and another guy are lost in a desert. There is only one gulp of water in your water bottle. You generate the will power from your inner self to give the water to the other person instead of drinking yourself. Do you feel angry towards the other person? No. Do you feel love towards the other person? No. Hatred? Jealousy? Contempt? No. Then where did this will power comes from? The will power comes from your motivation of personal responsibility and accountability. That’s not cheap emotion.

Those are not really cheap emotions...those are negative emotions...the desert example...that's love, but not in the romantic sense...U value life there...so cheap or not cheap is a POV discussion...
I think they are not cheap...hate is one of the strongest and most genuine emotions...kept under control can produce efficient results...and hate is very human-like...
It's just a matter of definition:U say it's cheap, I say negative, but we agree I think that they should be avoided right?

[maaghms]

Those are not really cheap emotions...those are negative emotions...the desert example...that's love, but not in the romantic sense...U value life there...so cheap or not cheap is a POV discussion...
I think they are not cheap...hate is one of the strongest and most genuine emotions...kept under control can produce efficient results...and hate is very human-like...
It's just a matter of definition:U say it's cheap, I say negative, but we agree I think that they should be avoided right?

I used the term "cheap" because those certain emotions such as anger and hatred are spontaneous. Do you have to put a lot of effort to become angry when somebody spits on your face? No. In fact, you have to generate a lot of willpower to control your anger (not to slap him back). This means that in that particular situation, your willpower is against your primary emotion "anger".

[benelori]

I used the term "cheap" because those certain emotions such as anger and hatred are spontaneous. Do you have to put a lot of effort to become angry when somebody spits on your face? No. In fact, you have to generate a lot of willpower to control your anger (not to slap him back). This means that in that particular situation, your willpower is against your primary emotion "anger".

Hatred is not spontaneous...anger yes...but not hatred...I can go hate somebody all my life...anger comes and goes...hatred can go away as well, but it's definitely not spontaneous...love can go away, emotions can fade, but that doesn't mean they are spontaneous...
So hatred is definitely not in the cheap section, by UR definition

[maaghms]

Hatred is not spontaneous...anger yes...but not hatred...I can go hate somebody all my life...anger comes and goes...hatred can go away as well, but it's definitely not spontaneous...love can go away, emotions can fade, but that doesn't mean they are spontaneous...
So hatred is definitely not in the cheap section, by UR definition

Hatred is cheap by my definition because you don’t need any great effort to hate somebody. It comes naturally. Just like anger. You need willpower to control or diminish your anger or your hatred. So my point still stands. Willpower can go against your emotions. And hatred and anger are cheap emotions. I did not use the word “negative” because somebody might come and debate with me later on why anger can be positive. :) That’s why I used the word “cheap”.

Clarification: Instead of the word “spontaneous”, I should have used the phrase “comes by itself or without any effort” to make things clearer.

[benelori]

I see...that I agree with...it's really easy to hate someone, or have some negative feeling towards that person...
I don't wanna feed the argument, cuz I agree with U...but take me for example...I don't really hate anyone, and it's really hard for me to hate...it's more like I don't care...it's a personality thing...but I consider myself as an exception, becuz most people tend to give in to hate easily, which makes it a natural thing

[Weapon_X]

Oh no doubt Hatred is much better. Will of Fire is total bullshit, wtf? No other village apart from Konoha believe in this crap and look what's happened to them numerous times lol

Will of Fire didn't help Hiruzen against Oro. Hiruzen died. Oro lived.

Will of Fire didn't help Naruto against Sasuke in Part 1. Sasuke walked out of the battle, Naruto was unconcious.

Will of Fire didn't help Jiraiya against Pain. Jiraiya died. Pain lived. And this is the same Pain who destroyed a whole village and turned it into a pile or rubble, where was the Will of Fire then?

Will of Fire didn't help Danzou against Sasuke's hatred.

Will of Fire didn't help Hashirama. Hashirama died and Madara is still alive.

There's probably more. Hopefully this Will of Fire crap will die out. As I said, no other village believes in this apart from Konoha lol

[Gats]

Oh no doubt Hatred is much better. Will of Fire is total bullshit, wtf? No other village apart from Konoha believe in this crap and look what's happened to them numerous times lol

Will of Fire didn't help Hiruzen against Oro. Hiruzen died. Oro lived.

Will of Fire didn't help Naruto against Sasuke in Part 1. Sasuke walked out of the battle, Naruto was unconcious.

Will of Fire didn't help Jiraiya against Pain. Jiraiya died. Pain lived. And this is the same Pain who destroyed a whole village and turned it into a pile or rubble, where was the Will of Fire then?

Will of Fire didn't help Danzou against Sasuke's hatred.

Will of Fire didn't help Hashirama. Hashirama died and Madara is still alive.

There's probably more. Hopefully this Will of Fire crap will die out. As I said, no other village believes in this apart from Konoha lol

Well if you are taking things like this :

Sasuke, in his path of hatred missed everything, he didn't achieve his goal, he was Itachi's puppet. His starts to achieve his goal just now with Danzou, he lost a lot of time before.
Sasuke won the fight against Naruto...but he didn't kill him.

You seem to forgot that Pain...resurrected the whole village thanks to Naruto Will of Fire.

Garaa is in the good side and has been resurrected thanks to...what ?

Madara failed miserably in the past, and his final plan is achieved yet.

Danzou is NOT someone who had the will of fire...anyway.

Will of Fire didn't help Shodaime ? What the hell ? The one who brougth peace by forming village/country, making truce with the Uchiha clan DESPITE Madara ?
Madara's revenge is the result of HIS FAILURE against Shodaime.

During a future battle between Sasuke and Naruto, we know that Itachi's power will appear, a power that Itachi gave to Naruto thanks to...his will of fire ?

Yeah yeah having big jutsu thanks to hatred is cool and all but in the end who achieved the most greatest things in the manga until now ?

Will of Fire and Hatred don't bring the same kind of "powers".

I'd also add that Will of Fire is probably a bad translation, it should be Fire of Will/Desire, it makes more sense (and this is the way it's translated officially in French at least).

[Weapon_X]

Well if you are taking things like this :

Sasuke, in his path of hatred missed everything, he didn't achieve his goal, he was Itachi's puppet. His starts to achieve his goal just now with Danzou, he lost a lot of time before.
Sasuke won the fight against Naruto...but he didn't kill him.

You seem to forgot that Pain...resurrected the whole village thanks to Naruto Will of Fire.

Garaa is in the good side and has been resurrected thanks to...what ?

Madara failed miserably in the past, and his final plan is achieved yet.

Danzou is NOT someone who had the will of fire...anyway.

Will of Fire didn't help Shodaime ? What the hell ? The one who brougth peace by forming village/country, making truce with the Uchiha clan DESPITE Madara ?
Madara's revenge is the result of HIS FAILURE against Shodaime.

During a future battle between Sasuke and Naruto, we know that Itachi's power will appear, a power that Itachi gave to Naruto thanks to...his will of fire ?

Yeah yeah having big jutsu thanks to hatred is cool and all but in the end who achieved the most greatest things in the manga until now ?

Will of Fire and Hatred don't bring the same kind of "powers".

I'd also add that Will of Fire is probably a bad translation, it should be Fire of Will/Desire, it makes more sense (and this is the way it's translated officially in French at least).

Sasuke didn't achieve his goal? His whole goal was to kill Itachi. He accomplished that, Itachi is dead. Goal number 1 done. His next goal was Danzou. He accomplished that, Danzou is dead. Goal number 2 done. So... where are the goals that he didn't accomplish?

Against Naruto, Sasuke's hatred against Itachi was stronger than Naruto's love/ friendship crap. That's why Sasuke walked out on 2 feet, while Naruto lay there on the ground unconcious. There's no denying that, Naruto failed.

I have not denied that Negato resurrected the whole village, the Will of Fire was targetted against Jiraiya. Will of Fire didn't help Jiraiya, he died, Pain lived. Nothing more, nothing less. And even with the village, sure he ressurected the "people" but he didn't resurrect the "village" itself did he? Everyone in Konoha has the Will of Fire and yet they all failed to wipe out Pain when Naruto wasn't around. What Konoha was before was a great village, now it's nothing.

Gaara turned into the good side because of Naruto, not because of the Will of Fire. If that was the case then Sunagakure would be following the same Will of Fire system as Konoha do, but they don't.

Sure, Shodaime accomplished alot but look at the village now. The village is a pile of rubble. :lmao Madara, the guy who walked out of the battle, summoned the Kyuubi on Konoha and got rid of the 4th Hokage. Madsra lives, Minato doesn't. Despite all that, Madara is still alive and kicking. Where's the previous Hokages? Dead.

Even now, I can give you 2 fantastic examples of Will of Fire and Hatred. Currently, the Will of Fire is laying face-down on the dirt, hyperventilating and whimpering like a coward whilst Hatred is their reigning death upon his enemies one by one. Hatred is accomplishing his goals, not so sure about the Will of Fire though.

As Aizen Sosuke said to Ichigo Kurosaki "battle without hatred is like a bird without wings". lol

[Gats]

I don't see the big picture? Don't make me laugh :lmao There was no point in me saying all the things that you just said because they are all wrong no matter what.

Sasuke didn't achieve his goal? His whole goal was to kill Itachi. He accomplished that, Itachi is dead. Goal number 1 done. His next goal was Danzou. He accomplished that, Danzou is dead. Goal number 2 done. So... where are the goals that he didn't accomplish?

Sasuke's goal was to revenge against the murder of his clan. He didn't kill Itachi, Itachi let him kill because it was part of his plan. Sasuke was the PUPPET, he missed his true target until Danzou. It's obvious taht Sasuke didn't accomplish his goal after killing Itachi, otherwise he won't go to his emo boy way, crying and saying "I WANT TO CRUSH KONOHA, BRO's LIFE IS MORE IMPORTANT FOR ME" all the time.


Against Naruto, Sasuke's hatred against Itachi was stronger than Naruto's love/ friendship crap. That's why Sasuke walked out on 2 feet, while Naruto lay there on the ground unconcious. There's no denying that, Naruto failed.

No it wasn't. Even Orochimaru saw it, that's why, in part 1, he sent quickly his 4 CS guys, he saw that Naruto's influence on Sasuke is growing and wanted to stop that now. Emergency external intervention was needed to make him walking in the darkness.



I have not denied that Negato resurrected the whole village, the Will of Fire was targetted against Jiraiya. Will of Fire didn't help Jiraiya, he died, Pain lived. Nothing more, nothing less. And even with the village, sure he ressurected the "people" but he didn't resurrect the "village" itself did he? Everyone in Konoha has the Will of Fire and yet they all failed to wipe out Pain when Naruto wasn't around. What Konoha was before was a great village, now it's nothing.

Gaara turned into the good side because of Naruto, not because of the Will of Fire. If that was the case then Sunagakure would be following the same Will of Fire system as Konoha do, but they don't.

Sure, Shodaime accomplished alot but look at the village now. The village is a pile of rubble. :lmao Madara, the guy who walked out of the battle, summoned the Kyuubi on Konoha and got rid of the 4th Hokage. Madsra lives, Minato doesn't. Despite all that, Madara is still alive and kicking. Where's the previous Hokages? Dead.

Even now, I can give you 2 fantastic examples of Will of Fire and Hatred. Currently, the Will of Fire is laying face-down on the dirt, hyperventilating and whimpering like a coward whilst Hatred is their reigning death upon his enemies one by one. Hatred is accomplishing his goals, not so sure about the Will of Fire though.

As Aizen Sosuke said to Ichigo Kurosaki "battle without hatred is like a bird without wings". lol

Will of Fire is the official belief of Konoha, does that mean that everyone has it ? Wrong. Danzou proved it, and even Madara said he is seeing Will of Fire in Naruto as he saw in Shodaime, why did he have to specify this if everyone really have it ?

Pain resurected the people but not the village ? What the hell ? When we talk about the village we are talking about the people right ? Because I don't see the point arguing on the state of the building. :facepalm

Jiraya died and did a last move which, in the end, saved everyone. He did the right thing. Will of Fire is not like a solo power like hatred.

Garaa would not be nice if Naruto didn't have the Will of Fire to save his friends.

You don't understand the Hokage goal, their death is not a failure, their duty is to sacrifice themselves for the village, to protect the village. Saying that Madara took down the 4th is a victory for him is really pointless. Madara's goal was (and is) to wipe out Konoha, he failed. The 4th won, and he won again by putting the Kyuubi in the right character.
Shodaime won, the village was safe, this what matters for him.

The village is still alive thanks to this, only buildings are missing, which is the most important for you ?

[Weapon_X]

Sasuke's goal was to revenge against the murder of his clan. He didn't kill Itachi, Itachi let him kill because it was part of his plan. Sasuke was the PUPPET, he missed his true target until Danzou. It's obvious taht Sasuke didn't accomplish his goal after killing Itachi, otherwise he won't go to his emo boy way, crying and saying "I WANT TO CRUSH KONOHA, BRO's LIFE IS MORE IMPORTANT FOR ME" all the time.



No it wasn't. Even Orochimaru saw it, that's why, in part 1, he sent quickly his 4 CS guys, he saw that Naruto's influence on Sasuke is growing and wanted to stop that now. Emergency external intervention was needed to make him walking in the darkness.




Will of Fire is the official belief of Konoha, does that mean that everyone has it ? Wrong. Danzou proved it, and even Madara said he is seeing Will of Fire in Naruto as he saw in Shodaime, why did he have to specify this if everyone really have it ?

Pain resurected the people but not the village ? What the hell ? When we talk about the village we are talking about the people right ? Because I don't see the point arguing on the state of the building. :facepalm

Jiraya died and did a last move which, in the end, saved everyone. He did the right thing. Will of Fire is not like a solo power like hatred.

Garaa would not be nice if Naruto didn't have the Will of Fire to save his friends.

You don't understand the Hokage goal, their death is not a failure, their duty is to sacrifice themselves for the village, to protect the village. Saying that Madara took down the 4th is a victory for him is really pointless. Madara's goal was (and is) to wipe out Konoha, he failed. The 4th won, and he won again by putting the Kyuubi in the right character.
Shodaime won, the village was safe, this what matters for him.

The village is still alive thanks to this, only buildings are missing, which is the most important for you ?

So? Does it matter that Itachi let Sasuke kill him? That doesn't change the fact that Sasuke accomplished his goal which was to get rid of Itachi. Last I checked, Itachi is dead. Sasuke was the puppet? LOL What a load of bullshit, Itachi WANTED to die by Sasuke's hands so he looked like a hero, doesn't sound like a puppet to me. Killing Danzou was a NEW goal, there's a difference. Once someone has accomplished one goal, they have another one. Or you didn't know that?

And again with Naruto, no matter what you say you cannot change manga pages and re-write your story. Sasuke walked out, Naruto didn't. There's no hidden meaning or some shit behind it, it's plain and simple. Sasuke won, Naruto lost. Also orochimaru didn't send the Sound 4 guys because Naruto was influencing Sasuke, Orochimaru needed a new body really quick, that's why he sent them.

Madara just pointed out the Will of Fire crap because that's what he saw in Shodaime. So...what's your point?

So you are saying the Will of Fire only resides in Naruto but not in Konoha? The Will of Fire was a total fail against Pain when Naruto wasn't around. It's a Konoha system, so obviously everyone is going to believe in it. And yet that didn't help the village getting nuked. Naruto always says he is going to protect the village, and yet he returns and finds it's turned into a pile of rubble :lmao So much for the Will of Fire.

Sure Madara failed to wipe out Konoha but then I can say the same things about the fail Hokages. Hashirama failed to kill Madara, if he had killed Madara then none of this shit would be happening. If Hashirama killed Madara, then Madara would not have laid his hands on Konoha, Minato would be alive with Naruto. Shame that didn't work out because yet again, Minato lost the battle, died, put his son's life in danger by putting the Kyuubi into his son AND lost his own life. Madara walked out, yet again. All Madara lost was the Kyuubi. Madara's goal was to kill the Uchihas aswell, they are all gone. I don't see why Madara would be dissapointed in his history.

Is Naruto's Will of Fire helping Sasuke get back? Lol, no.

[Gats]

So? Does it matter that Itachi let Sasuke kill him? That doesn't change the fact that Sasuke accomplished his goal which was to get rid of Itachi. Last I checked, Itachi is dead. Sasuke was the puppet? LOL What a load of bullshit, Itachi WANTED to die by Sasuke's hands so he looked like a hero, doesn't sound like a puppet to me. Killing Danzou was a NEW goal, there's a difference. Once someone has accomplished one goal, they have another one. Or you didn't know that?

Of course it matters, it means that without this, Sasuke would already be dead, it's manga canon, stated by Madara the Master of Hatred himself.
http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/401/01/
http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/401/07/

Yourself you are saying that Itachi wanted to die, so he let Sasuke kill him (and yet...Itachi died himself in the end)... Did Sasuke know about Itachi's plan ? No. He knew nothing, he was following every step Itachi told him (but he didn't kill Naruto, true). SO YEAH ALL OF THIS IS THE BASIC DEFINITION OF BEING A PUPPET.

Killing Danzou is part of the SAME goal. Sasuke saw that he was wrong and now aims to Danzou and co, if Itachi was really one of his ultimate goal, Sasuke would not cry like hell after his discussion with Madara.


And again with Naruto, no matter what you say you cannot change manga pages and re-write your story. Sasuke walked out, Naruto didn't. There's no hidden meaning or some shit behind it, it's plain and simple. Sasuke won, Naruto lost. Also orochimaru didn't send the Sound 4 guys because Naruto was influencing Sasuke, Orochimaru needed a new body really quick, that's why he sent them.

Orochimaru was really anxious about it :
http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/88/10/
http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/88/11/


Madara just pointed out the Will of Fire crap because that's what he saw in Shodaime. So...what's your point?

So you are saying the Will of Fire only resides in Naruto but not in Konoha? The Will of Fire was a total fail against Pain when Naruto wasn't around. It's a Konoha system, so obviously everyone is going to believe in it. And yet that didn't help the village getting nuked. Naruto always says he is going to protect the village, and yet he returns and finds it's turned into a pile of rubble :lmao So much for the Will of Fire.

So why does Madara as to specify Shodaime if everyone has it ? It's not like Madara only met Shodaime in his life in Konoha.

I've never said that Will of Fire resides only in Naruto, I said that everyone can't pretend to have this belief or to act this way. This is not because it's part of a system that the citizens have automaticaly this, the extreme example is Orochimaru, or even Danzou. It's like saying that everyone share the same values in a country in real life, that's false.

THe Will of Fire helped to save the village, it was getting nuked, true, but who thougth that it would be resurected ? This is a big Win. Naruto convinced Nagato and revived everyone. It is beyond what all the hatred has done in this manga. You seems to skip the end of the story each time.



Sure Madara failed to wipe out Konoha but then I can say the same things about the fail Hokages. Hashirama failed to kill Madara, if he had killed Madara then none of this shit would be happening. If Hashirama killed Madara, then Madara would not have laid his hands on Konoha, Minato would be alive with Naruto. Shame that didn't work out because yet again, Minato lost the battle, died, put his son's life in danger by putting the Kyuubi into his son AND lost his own life. Madara walked out, yet again. All Madara lost was the Kyuubi. Madara's goal was to kill the Uchihas aswell, they are all gone. I don't see why Madara would be dissapointed in his history.

Is Naruto's Will of Fire helping Sasuke get back? Lol, no.

If Madara's use of Izanagi is confirmed, Shodaime couldn't kill Madara, he couldn't know. This power has nothing to do with hatred.
You can't say that he failed, Konoha is not dead yet, it has been fully resurected, thanks to the "nindo" of guys like Shodaime.

Again, Minato didn't loose. You really don't understand the meaning of self sacrifice, do you ? If Minato didn't sacrifice himself, Madara and Kyuubi would already win, don't you get it ? How can you say that Madara won ? His goal was to destroy Konoha, not specifically Yondaime, he failed.
The only thing he had really done so far is destroying his own clan. He is winning over Sasuke, let's how it will be in the end, you can't say he won until the end of story.

Sasuke is the inheiritor of the clan of Hatred, he is Naruto's biggest challenge, no wonder that Naruto didn't bring back Sasuke yet.

I've never said that Will of Fire can do everything, I said that his feats are more impressive than hatred if we see the whole picture.

[SeventhPath]

@Gatsuga

The belief in the will of fire is the ability to sacrifice yourself with a smile on the lips, managing only to repel the attack, not defeat the enemy behind the attack, so that the whole circle can begin again and your children can have the 'privilege' of sacrificing themselves, too:facepalm.

Hatred is the ability to become arbitrarily strong, to amass an impressive bodycount and, in the end, escape death itself (necessary ONLY when a high-level 'will of fire' guy sacrifices himself in order to stop you).

About Naruto - his 'jesus no jutsu' is NOT the will of fire; you see, all Konoha is supposed to have this will of fire, and konoha ninjas don't have the ability to convert anyone they want in 5 minutes.
Plus, Naruto's 'jesus no jutsu' generates some pretty crappy writing - Naruto's 'conversion' of Nagato was highly unconvincing.

And let's compare will of fire belief and hatred when it comes to their effectiveness in making one stronger - hatred wins, easily.

[DarkManSharingan32]

"Will of Fire" and "Hatred" are not power ups.... They are just the name for the psychological representation of a ninja's power. The difference between the two is only this:

Fighting for yourself (selfishness), and fighting for others (selflessness)... I think it has been shown in the manga, that if a ninja concentrates on only honing his own skill for a single goal, forsaking all those around him/her... that person can attain power though hard-work at a faster rate. The more the goal is in jeopardy, the more this hatred is fueled, and the ninja tries to find deeper wells of power within themself.

As an example: Since Sasuke made his choice to leave Konoha... every battle he has been in (perhaps aside from the KillerBee fight, and a few others)... Sasuke has had to fight to stay alive, and thus keep his goal alive. Every battle is a threat to what he holds "sacred".
---

The "Will of Fire" is the desire to protect others, and as such is only truly effective when trying to do so... The ninja does not put so much emphasis on themselves, and so naturally training rates and the like are slower. But when that ninja has the weight of their friends and/or village on their back.... they find a way to come out on top and finish their objective.
---

So, to conclude... are they powerups? No. They aren't close to something analogous to Super Saiyan, Ban-Kai, Gear-Second/Third... but but do give insights as to the "why" of a ninja's power.
---

As for which is stronger... Hatred clearly gains power at a faster rate, and allowes the ninja to fight with a ruthlessness that would be enough to finish most ninja.

But when it is all said and done, in the final battle.... You can bet the Will of Fire will prevail.

[Jack Van Burace]

Continuing the argument on this chapter predictions, I have to say that Konoha isn't about 'love' or Naruto's nindo. Konoha is a country of murderers and sacrifices, and that is the way of Hatred.

When Jiraya thought about getting rid of Pain, he was sacrificing his student for the good of the country/friends/family/whatever, but he wasn't fighting him the same way Naruto did. He was disposing of the problem without really uinderstanding it. That rarely works, and that's why it didn't.

Naruto's nindo is solving a problem by understanding it first, and trying to make it right. That's what defeated Pain, and that's what he does differently than anyone else.

[hakuthehedgehog]

Jiraya tried to understand Nagato's motifs, but Nagato whouldn't say nothing.
Nagato only started to talk with Naruto after he beat him and showed him his strenght, same with Gaara.
In order for the jesus no jutsu work, Naruto needs to beat someone and show him his strenght.

[Jack Van Burace]

^Well, if you ask for peace when you're under someone's shoes, this might seem like you're being selfish and only doing this because it's favorable to you. What's really impressive is to still desire peace when you're above, when you have the power to take advantage of others and chose not to.

That's why asking for peace and love before showing your strength might fail. One must show he's doing it for the right reasons.

[niblack89]

Seems hatred will grant more chakra and make jutsu extremely powerful. While the will of fire will kill you once a new generation pops up so I will go with hatred. Madara lasted 100+ years with hate while all the previous hokages except the 3rd only last a few years. Will of fire gets you kill fast

[pjoto]

@niblack89, haha made me laugh :p in a good way :)

You can share the Will of Fire with friends, hatred is something you deal with yourself.
There is only so much one person can do, no matter how strong he is.

A good example is Team Hawk, together they worked as a good team, compensated each others flaws, risked their lifes for each other and repeatedly saved each other. Sasuke alone is nothing compared.

In a 1on1 fight, I'm not sure what is the best, Sasuke won the last 1on1 fight with Naruto, and Naruto crushed Pain with his hate and urge for revenge, so it's looking good for the haters.
But I believe in the long run, the Will of Fire will get you the furthest.
Oh, and when you fight for others, you can apparently draw forth powers you never knew you had.

[benelori]

@niblack89, haha made me laugh :p in a good way :)

You can share the Will of Fire with friends, hatred is something you deal with yourself.
There is only so much one person can do, no matter how strong he is.


Good point...Konoha will outlive Madara for sure...sasuke as well...

[juUnior]

Just looked at the title and thought: why, hatred is cool :p

Ok, if it means for my own subjective opinion, I find hatred more useful than will of fire thingy, ESPECIALLY if it means for Narutoverse. This is a world of shinobis for god sake, so it isn't about "protect your ppl" and such, it should be about being strong enough to not be killed :p .. though, I'm putting Narutoverse into more realistic approach rather than shown by Kishi, heh :p

[donyusufahmed]

Good point...Konoha will outlive Madara for sure...sasuke as well...

Sure about that :p we all know madara is a great great grand father, and he still moves like his 15yrs. EMS baby!!!



@niblack89, haha made me laugh :p in a good way :)

You can share the Will of Fire with friends, hatred is something you deal with yourself.
There is only so much one person can do, no matter how strong he is.

A good example is Team Hawk, together they worked as a good team, compensated each others flaws, risked their lifes for each other and repeatedly saved each other. Sasuke alone is nothing compared.

In a 1on1 fight, I'm not sure what is the best, Sasuke won the last 1on1 fight with Naruto, and Naruto crushed Pain with his hate and urge for revenge, so it's looking good for the haters.
But I believe in the long run, the Will of Fire will get you the furthest.
Oh, and when you fight for others, you can apparently draw forth powers you never knew you had.

Yes pain but he didn't have access to the first grade hate. I mean there's the ninja world hate and theres the hate exclusive to the Uchihas, i mean even the Kyuubi knows theres is stronger. I can't really pick on this, i need more thinking, i might go with both.

[Dattebayo!]

I think put simply, the "easy" route is hatred to gain strength/power, but the will of fire will allow a ninja to go that extra mile when it matters to not always win, but help those people who matter to the person.

A ninja fueled by hatred will win 99% of the time, but when it comes down to the big battle between them and someone with the will of fire, the person with hatred will always lose in the long run, even if they are victorious (Jiraiya is a prime example of this)

[Expletivebmp]

I think put simply, the "easy" route is hatred to gain strength/power, but the will of fire will allow a ninja to go that extra mile when it matters to not always win, but help those people who matter to the person.

A ninja fueled by hatred will win 99% of the time, but when it comes down to the big battle between them and someone with the will of fire, the person with hatred will always lose in the long run, even if they are victorious (Jiraiya is a prime example of this)

As we've seen, Uchiha hatred grants them almost god like power, especially in the presence of senju dna. Tobito (good god Abner, Obito's actually Tobi) /n is a perfect example of this; tobito and spiral zetsu combined along with tobito's hatred uchiha bloodline and the senju blood that was grafted to his body all made for a powerful shinobi.

All Sasuke is missing is Senju DNA (maybe he still have a bit of the Uzumaki girl's chakra still in him) and knowing Orochimaru (Abner, at least the ambiguously gay villain's back), he's going to make Sasuke the true villain this manga needs. Sasuke will be the god villain, Orochimaru will be the god wizard, and Sasuke's harem will be around to play the roll that we the readers would feel if standing amidst something infinitely greater than we are.

---------- Post added at 11:00 AM ---------- Previous post was at 10:57 AM ----------


Seems hatred will grant more chakra and make jutsu extremely powerful. While the will of fire will kill you once a new generation pops up so I will go with hatred. Madara lasted 100+ years with hate while all the previous hokages except the 3rd only last a few years. Will of fire gets you kill fast

Hatred makes you powerful and even though I'm sickly and my chest hurts, and I'm almost always sick, when I'm infused with hatred, i'm given a rush of awesome for all but a few minutes.

[M3J]

If Uchiha hatred granted them god-like powers, Sasuke wouldn't have had any trouble against the five kage, Danzou, or even Itachi. Will of Fire is far more powerful than hatred.

Will of Fire allows anyone to continue fighting even if they're low or out of chakra. Look at Naruto, he's a perfect example.

[synapse]

If Uchiha hatred granted them god-like powers, Sasuke wouldn't have had any trouble against the five kage, Danzou, or even Itachi. Will of Fire is far more powerful than hatred.

Will of Fire allows anyone to continue fighting even if they're low or out of chakra. Look at Naruto, he's a perfect example.\

ahem...its the Kyuubi that saves Naruto most of the time.

[Uchiha_Blood]

Hatred 1 - 0 Will of Fire (http://www.mangahere.com/manga/naruto/v60/c601/8.html)

:heh

[M3J]

\

ahem...its the Kyuubi that saves Naruto most of the time.

Obviously, but Kyuubi would be useless if Naruto gave up. Look at his fight with Neji, Naruto didn't give up. Against Gaara, he still continued to fight until he learned Sakura was safe. Even against Nagato, he used Will of Fire to convert Nagato back into a good guy. It's combination of both. Naruto still does better in his fights than Sasuke.

Name the last time Naruto lost a fight or ran away or had to be saved at least twice.

[NinjaStar]

Obviously, but Kyuubi would be useless if Naruto gave up. Look at his fight with Neji, Naruto didn't give up. Against Gaara, he still continued to fight until he learned Sakura was safe. Even against Nagato, he used Will of Fire to convert Nagato back into a good guy. It's combination of both. Naruto still does better in his fights than Sasuke.

Name the last time Naruto lost a fight or ran away or had to be saved at least twice.

Hmmmm The entire fight with Tobi...

[Naruto2011]

Will of Fire or Power of Hatred........

hmmm i believe Hashiramas cells curbstomps them both :cookiehand

[ninjabot]

Neither hatred nor the will of fire are quantifiable power sources. Sasuke's power grows thanks to his hatred because his MS abilities only reveal themselves under duress. Just like how Naruto's Kyuubi powers only revealed themselves when he was under duress (think 4tk Naruto vs. Orochimaru).

One could say "See! Naruto was ony pwning him because he gave into his hatred, which made him stronger!"... which actually isn't the case. It's just that his powers grow from intense anger.

If there were a kekkei genkai or bijuu that required one to believe in themselves to awaken the power boost recieved from it, then yeah, the same thing would happen that happens with hatred. People will be quick to point out that Tobi states Sasuke's body reacts to his hatred... but that's simple science. Everyone's body reacts to hatred. Just like it reacts to fear, and determination. The body is capable of overcoming it's limits with the aid of intense emotion (there have been women who have lifted trucks and tossed them over to save their children in car wrecks). And there have been people that have gotten into fistfights and gotten stabbed, but didn't realize it until several minutes after the fight is already over because the adrenaline boost from their anger made them fight through the pain.

Though I will say that if Sasuke's hatred actually gave him more power, it wouldn't be chakra or stamina. It would be the spiritual energy that powers all of the Uchiha techniques.

[M3J]

Hmmmm The entire fight with Tobi...

Naruto still didn't give up and is fighting, trying to hit Tobi. If he just gave up, Kyuubi chakra wouldn't be worth a thing, no matter how much of a free powerup it is.

So yeah, Naruto's power does grow from Will of Fire. Kyuubi's chakra didn't come into play after Naruto headbutted Gaara, it was the will of fire that kept Naruto crawling.

If hatred was as powerful as people claim it to be, Sasuke would not have had trouble against the kage and would have beaten them without needing to run away twice or be saved. Nor would he have had a problem against Danzou, the very person that Sasuke wants to kill out of pure hatred and revenge. Hell, Sasuke wouldn't have had trouble against Itachi, considering how much hatred he had in his heart compared to Itachi, an Uchiha devoid of any hatred.

Hatred is like will of power, but for different reasons.

[Uchiha_Blood]

I believe the most recent time when the Will of Fire truly aided Naruto was against Pein.
That wasn't a battle of strenght alone, that was a battle of wills, of ideals.

Nagato exposed his idea of peace, crushing Naruto's morale. Yondaime aided Naruto in finding his own answer, and Naruto, alone, fought Pein again. Outclassed, faced with the strongest Doujutsu and the leader apparent of Akatsuki Naruto really had every reason to give up, and didn't thanks to the Will of Fire.
Yet it didn't give him a real boost so to speak ( he wasn't out of chakra or anything ) , it just gave him the metaphorical strenght to not give up.

The only time where I can see the Will of Fire giving Naruto a boost was against Gaara.

Other than that, as offensive bias said it was mainly Kyuubi

[M3J]

Naruto beat Neji because he had will of fire, though. He wanted to prove Neji wrong, that there's no such thing as destiny. If he just gave up after running out of chakra, Kyuubi would have been useless. Same when he fought Kabuto to protect Tsunade. No Kyuubi chakra there, just Naruto not giving up despite broken leg and even innovating the way he does rasengan.

Will of Fire when he was training to use fuuton and add it to rasengan, and advance fuuton: rasengan to FRS. He kept training and didn't give up.

Tsuchikage started fighting more all out without fear of running out of chakra after few minutes with Madara. Will of Fire. Hiruzen fought Orochimaru and took his own life to protect Konoha. Will of Fire.

Madara had hatred against Hashirama's will o ffire. HASHIRAMA WON. Tobi had hatred against Minato's will of fire. Tobi didn't leave with the Kyuubi. Sasuke had hatred against Naruto's wlil of fire. Sasuke won only because Naruto didn't go for hurting Sasuke.

Tobi beating Konan, Madara beating the kage, and quite possibly Sasuke beating Danzou were the only times where hatred (IF) beat will of fire. Hell, even will of fire kept Tsunade (CUT IN FUCKING HALF WITH HER LOWER HALF SO FAR AWAY FROM HER BODY) alive and most likely will result in the fallen kage being saved from death. Sasuke had to use Juugo and Karin to heal.

Hell, will of fire helped Sasuke use Amaterasu against Killerbee (he thought of his team at the time, right?) and take Amaterasu off Karin's back (he thought of Team 7).

Hell, will of fire revived almost everyone who died in Konoha and enabled Jiraiya to be brought back to life before Pain finished him off for good.

[Uchiha_Blood]

I don't think you can resume everytime someone didn't gave up as a "Will of Fire" thing.
When Jiraiya said a ninja's best quality is to "never give up" he never referred it as Will of Fire, while Sarutobi referred as Will of Fire the will every ninja of Konoha has to protect their home.

The Will of Fire is not giving up, true, but not for oneself's sake, but for other's sake.
Naruto snapped out of his trance when Sasuke said to him he didn't want to see him and Sakura die.
Remember when, before making 1000 clones, he said to Sasuke he wanted to protect everyone?

Hell remember Asuma's dying message to Shikamaru?
Protect the King, meaning all the unborn children of the Leaf. Same thing during the Kyuubi attack, by both Konoha ninjas and Yondaime, same thing Obito did when he sacrificed himself for Kakashi and Rin's sake, same thing Hiruzen did by sacrificing himself and stopping Oro, the First and the Second Hokage.

Against Neji, Naruto wanted to prove that a failure could beat a genius, that wasn't the Will of Fire, that was a oath he swore for Hinata and Lee's sake.

Damn, Part 1 was awesome...

[M3J]

Will of fire can be protecting home and not giving up. I thought I listed those who endured for sake of others, like Naruto standing up to Kabuto to protect Tsunade.

And has Jiraiya ever mentioned will of fire before? :x

[NinjaStar]

Obviously, but Kyuubi would be useless if Naruto gave up. Look at his fight with Neji, Naruto didn't give up. Against Gaara, he still continued to fight until he learned Sakura was safe. Even against Nagato, he used Will of Fire to convert Nagato back into a good guy. It's combination of both. Naruto still does better in his fights than Sasuke.

Name the last time Naruto lost a fight or ran away or had to be saved at least twice.

I was just answering your question of when was the last time he had to be saved at least twice and this current battle is the answer. He has been saved more than twice.

Having said that idk where people are getting that hatred or the will of fire fuels people thing like its some sort of power or ability. Its just somebodies personal motivation. What makes that push themselves beyond their limits. Is Sasuke's will to get revenge stronger than Naruto's will to save everyone and get world peace? I would say yes considering Naruto has no damn idea what to do to achieve that latter.

[Expletivebmp]

I was just answering your question of when was the last time he had to be saved at least twice and this current battle is the answer. He has been saved more than twice.

Having said that idk where people are getting that hatred or the will of fire fuels people thing like its some sort of power or ability. Its just somebodies personal motivation. What makes that push themselves beyond their limits. Is Sasuke's will to get revenge stronger than Naruto's will to save everyone and get world peace? I would say yes considering Naruto has no damn idea what to do to achieve that latter.

People are being inspired by his will of fire alone, and not necessarily his answer for peace. Just by him saying he wants to achieve world peace is fast becoming reason enough to trust in him, or so it would seem.

but all Naruto seems to inspire is people wanting to die to help him achieve his dreams of creating a better world. And even more ironic albeit unwittingly, Tobito and Madara's hatred has made Naruto's dream for a better world, even easier to attain post 4th war.

[Kay3795]

Will of Fire vs Hatred huh?
Well, Will of Fire is stronger and it will always win.
Will of Fire is that unyielding determination to protect people who are precious to you or even those who ain't. Will of Fire makes you care for others irrespective of how disadvantaged that makes you.
Hatred however is a selfish desire to fulfil ones thirst. Hatred will lead to a road of confusion.

Both are a concept but this is what I think differentiates them.

[Shader]

Well...this whole will vs hatred reminded me of a DC's lanterns, it is exacly the perfect example with Naruto in role of Hal Jordan and Sasuke as Sinestro...they both started as green lanterns(will) and then Sinestro goes to yellow for more power (Fear), Fear is the thing wich shatter the Will, and Will is the only thing wich can overcome Fear. In my point of view the strong will can overcome any fears (yes,you are still scared, but u still gonna do what need to be done) and exacly this imo means will of fire is stronger then hatred, case hatred is strong, but its have a limit, and will is the limitless thing with endless posibilities.

[synapse]

And Hashirama didn't win because of will of fire, its apparently because he had amazing steroids. :hee

Anyway "will of fire" is a collectivist and communist concept and does not stress enough on individual excellence. These kind of philosophies have already lost in the real world.

[shafagh]

And what about Will of stone , Will of wind and .....

[shahdan]

I always thought the 'will of fire' was a thing of fair-tales, where sun never sets, birds chirp all day long - without the nuisance of bird droppings - 7 rainbows in the sky, eternally long bridges of hope...and the happy-go-lucky list is long.

I would say that hatred is more strong an emotion as a motivator and driving force.

[Archea]

In all honesty I think the will of fire is a sign of a shinobi growing up due to the death of someone important in their life. Naruto got his will of fire when Jiraiya died maybe, Ino-Shika-Cho the current generation got theirs when Asuma died albeit chouji got his during the war it seems like.

We could all be looking at this too literally, it could just be the desire to protect their village, pride, important ones what have you amkes them automagically have the will to go on.

[xXan]

So the will to protect what you love vs Hate. I go with the will of fire. Personaly i belive love is the strongest of the 2.

[shinsengumi]

i think the real power of the will of fire -eventhough its a clitch- is to never give up thing and it gives results in the long run .like how lee could become a formidable shinobi despite his complete lack of ninjutsu skills . doing thousands of push-ups ,running hundreds of kms daily for years
jiraiya and naruto succeeding the sage training .naruto controling the kyuubi , even forming bonds with him .if naruto were to give in to hatred kyuubi would get loose long ago

there was a chinese saying like this if im not mistaken ; lies spread faster but truth arrives just on time
thats pretty much the relationship between hatred and will of fire in naruto . hatred will hold the upperhand until the end but the winner will be the will of fire