What do you still like about Naruto?

[Kaiten]

With all of the discussion about retoconned characters, the series going done hill, a main character in decline, if he is still the main character, etc. it begs the question: what is everyone still reading Naruto for? Are there positive points left? Does everyone still look forward to new chapters?

Personally I still find Naruto very entertaining. While it is not one of my favorite series I've always looked forward to new chapters (still do). For all of the silliness, especially since the immortals arc ended, Naruto is still a good action shonen. The Pain Invasion arc was magnificent, one of the Jumps highlights last year. While I like Sasuke the character I don't like that every arcs he has been in starting with Itachi has been a multi chapter battle, with the exception of the Kage summit. But when Kishi shifts the focus to other characters I fully expect more plot oriented, less jutsu obsessed chapters. As the Pain arc demonstrated, Kishi is willing to focus on plot and dialog driven chapters when the focus is on any other character.

[Exodi]

I still like it for pretty much the same reasons you do, although I don't mind "jutsu obsessed chapters," because unlike Bleach, Naruto has a lot more plot development.

The thing about Naruto action that I find entertaining is that there's always some sort of thinking involved. Techniques exists on deeper levels than just "it does this cool thing!". From the beginning there was an interesting mix of cool, supernatural ability and (pseudo) science.

[Kaiten]

I agree, the fights involve more strategy and dialog than a lot of other action series. Some fights more than others. I personally don't love (but don't always hate) mult - chapter fights, that wasn't a knock against Naruto specifically. Kishi's writing is definitely underrated. He has had his weak moments but over all Naruto is a pretty sharp manga.

[Darth Executor]

I love multi-chapter fights. The only thing that ruins them for me is coming here and reading all the complaining about the fights being boring. The recent sasuke/danzou fight was incredible and I can't wait to see it animated.

The only fight I kinda got bored/annoyed with was the pain invasion arc. not only was it way too long and filled up with useless crap like the hunt for the real pain, but almost as if to apologize for the non-existent naruto development, kishimoto had naruto destroy pain's bodies way too quickly and easily to be believable. He made Jiraiya look like konohamaru.

[maaghms]

what is everyone still reading Naruto for?

I’m still reading Naruto for the following reasons:
It takes only 3 minutes each week. (Every week I spend about 3 minutes for OP, Bleach and Naruto respectively). So, I sort of give myself a total of around 15 minutes each week for the big three in addition to some other weekly manga.
It is free. :p
For general entertainment purposes.
Does everyone still look forward to new chapters? I don’t think I actively look forward to new chapters for Naruto (since the beginning of Part II). As I said before, I have a set of “manga to read” every week. And Naruto happens to be one of them. But there are some mangas such as OP which I might want to know what happens in the next chapter. So you can call it “looking forward to”. But no, not for Naruto.


Are there positive points left? May be a few such as the interaction of other side characters (e.g. Kakashi, Sai, Bee, etc) and battles for other Kages. But when it comes to Naruto, I don’t even want to look at him since he obsesses about Sasuke 24 hrs/day.. Furthermore, when it comes to Sasuke, I just cannot stand his attitude. So, I like most other characters except those two worthless and overly emotional main characters. :)

[M3J]

what is everyone still reading Naruto for? Are there positive points left? Does everyone still look forward to new chapters?


I'm loyal to the manga and it still does tend to interest me. I mostly am reading to see what happens and how it finishes. Naruto's fate is what interests me. Does he become a hokage? Does he die? Does he create peace? Did he save Sasuke? How awesome has he gotten?

To be honest, I don't see much positive points. Naruto fainting made me lose respect I had for him. Despite being hated so much, treated so badly, he still kept on fighting and being his awesome self. But mention Sakura attempting to kill Sasuke, or Sasuke not being spared, he passes out (allegedly). While the result of his battle against Pain may not have helped his image as much, the way he reacted when Cloud nins attacked was just pure awesome. One of my favorites.
Sasuke lost his coolness when he started charging in and not thinking and when he used Mangekyou Sharingan a lot. What made him awesome was that smart, emotionless kid that proved how intelligent he was. Now we see revenge-driven Sasuke doing lot of stupid things.
Sakura ended Rescue Gaara arc with so much potential, but she got somewhat shoved aside then she deteriorated during Pain arc, where she was crying for Naruto to come back. Though, she did show herself pretty well, trying to save the village and saving the little girl. Who knows? It's too early to write her off.

I look forward to new chapters because I am curious to see what happens. Naruto hasn't degraded in quality that much.
I hope that new techniques aren't made that gets uber and uber. I liked jutsu from Part I as it was simple enough and still pretty cool.

[KnuckleheadedNinja]

Nothing.

Edit: Maybe the occasional appearance of Kakashi.

[ashher]

i am a rather rare case here it seems;i like shippuden so much more than 1st part.the first while being a good one as a shonen,it wasn't very exceptional anything.among usual shonens my favorite is hunter x hunter.

so the things i like about Naruto are prolly the ones that usually ppl don't like.

i like the way sasuke has been developed very much.these days villains like joker has become more and more common,while they have style,they kinda makes us forget that villains come from normal ppl who gets screwed themselves too many a time.

i like the way naruto has been developed.normally in shonens everything revolves around the hero,here it feels like naruto is really one among many sixteen year olds fighting to find right place for him.at present the characteristics he show are very common among shonen heros,like pacifism and fighting for nakama and all,but unlike other heros he had none of them built-in,each step of him towards these attributes have been enjoyable.....and now that he doubts all of them,it makes me more interested.

i always thought sakura should've been developed.kishi said that he didn't concentrate on sakura or her family because she is a normal girl,but it was imo necessary to portray what was really normal,because both sasuke and naruto has been developed in such way so that they can be like extraordinary from ordinary,so the chance of depicting normal/ordinary was in sakura.i am glad that recently kishi concentrated on sakura and let her make normally acceptable reasonable decisions.

supporting characters have been good as well,konoha rookies played their part,then akatsuki villains and kages and sai and 8tails.......they haven't played big roles but kept things going.however i am very glad that kishi didn't make it like normal shonens where all the nakamas have some problems and hero goes and solves all through some fights,(one arc for byakugan, one for gates, one for dogs.....u get what i mean) .......supporting characters stayed in their place.

the plot has also been good,with twist, background infos,good jutsus and fights.however i am particularly disappointed with 2 recent events that is the kage meeting resulting in union already........there should've been a war among nations which should've been solved by naruto as a hokage.however i am hoping sasuke will cause a break in the union when his time comes as the chief villain,it would be great if naruto solves it then.the second is the apparent death of kisame and danzo,which killed of 2 relevant plot-lines about madara's connection with mist and more internal politics and may be a civil war.in a nutshell,i expect more delicate things in a war than just a group of terrorist.

[Sachsenhesse]

because i play in a onlinenarutorpg for years and must be up to date xD

according to that my maininterest lies in the jutsus that are shown... unfortunatly the most useful jutsus are shown by useless characters they got pwning from sasuke or pain

[Shisu]

What l do like about Naruto?

Of course the badass main character Sasuke.
And the Akatsuki cloak's ;)

Mainly it's because of the wicked story. l don't know any other Manga with such a well done and complex story.

[Askia32]

I guess I like the idea of the manga. I still read cuz part of me is still hoping for a turnaround.

[3c]

Great topic Kaiten! We surely need a topic like this to reduce the negative comments on the series and Naruto the character.

I guess I still read it because of the plot as I'm interested in seeing where this is going. And despite myself being annoyed by certain aspects of the series, those same aspects actually make me want to keep reading the series. Like for example, Naruto's endless quest for saving Sasuke annoys the hell out of me, but because I want to know when this takes a turning point/reaches it's climax it keeps me interested despite my heavy negativity towards that said plot.

Other than that I guess it's because despite Naruto's many weak moments, annoying beliefs and ugly jumpsuit I still love the character, and want to cheer him on in the future. So yeah Naruto still has a hold on me.

Addionally I think the fights in Naruto are spectacular. Better than any other fights I've read in any other manga. The reason for this is that fights in Naruto are so much more complicated. It's not like "Lulz I'm 10000 and you 8000. You stand no chance as I have moar powah!". It's strategy, and the many weaknesses vs strengths. Like the nature wheel. Elements come into play, strategy comes into play. Things like this is what make the fights for me. This is the reason why I didn't enjoy the Kage Summit to much, as I hated the non-thinking action. However the recent Danzou vs Sasuke has been spectacular and is one of my favorite fights in Naruto in general. It was simply awesome to the core, and a big reason for this is the strategies and thinking involved in this fight, Sasuke rocked. I also agree with you Darth, that the negativity sometimes ruin the fights. Although it's mostly directed towards Sasuke, some people just can't hold in the hate. Though I think it's rather comic that this always happens with the spoilers. People go like "OMGz0r this sucks!". Then the chapter comes out and the same people say "OMGz0r this chapter owns!".

All in all I still like Naruto, despite it's negative sides. It is my favorite manga after all.

[juUnior]

Everything: it's my top favourite fighting shonen after all <3 <even if sometimes I'm annoyed of Kishi's love for Sasuke ^^'>.

I'm not going into details because it would be too long <and I don't have time xd>, but from the very first moment I loved that Kishi puts an awesome idea to combine the cool ideas from mythology, other cultures, fighting styles and such and incorporate it into his own manga. It's a cool "japanese" feel to it <I don't know how to call it>. I find such stuff very, very cool <I don't know why, seriously, but it makes me feel that it's more than just yet another 'simple' manga :p>.

The rest is simple: awesome characters <you like them or don't like them, you love them, hate them, everything is here>, designs <usually pro, and even if in the beginning I bash sth, later on I find it very cool>, art <fantastic panels, constantly more "natural, realistic" approach to drawing - it reminds me <in some way of course> of American comic book artists like Tom Lyle, Mark Bagley and Todd McFarlane which I respect; drawing characters and backgrounds>, fights <like it was said: one of the coolest thing>, interactions between characters <the only fighting shonen manga where I consider this aspect very good, not even Dragonball was so good in that aspect, sorry xd>, and so on. If someone considers OP/Bleach a masterpiece <ok, maybe Bleach not, but who knows :p>, I consider Naruto a masterpiece ^^

btw. ahh, I forgot.. SABAKU NO GAARA! xDXDXD

[Delbi]

Personally, I have a love hate relationship with many of the characters, and the overall plot interests me greatly as I want to see how Naruto is going to solve the problems at hand in his world.

Also, some of Kishi's characters like Kakashi and Shikamaru, are to me, some of the greatest characters in manga today. They are my favorite characters and I just think anything with them in it is great so I'll keep reading to see what they will do. And Kakashi as Hokage is full of win, so I need to see how that'll turn out haha.

[Drmke]

I keep reading because, overall, the story is still very pleasing. It has its weak moment, more recently, but its a solid shonen manga with a original plot and unique characters.

I do look forward to new chapters each because some are really plot driven, and some actually contain very interesting and unforeseen plot twists.

The most positive points left I guess would be the main characters (mostly Sasuke and Naruto) are getting a lot more character development than they use too. By character development, I'm not talking about getting more screen time or new techniques, but more layers to their personalities are being shown. Naruto is losing his innocence about the world and Sasuke is showing his real self. I prefer Kishimoto changing how each character acts over the course of the story as opposed to many series where the main characters are the same at the end as they were at the beginning.

[zagorka]

The only thing I still like about Naruto are the different types of techniques we see and the potential ones we may see (:/), aside from the sharingan, and bijuu related ones. The 5 Kage meeting was nice just to see something new. I loved Sasori and Orochimaru the most. They were extremely interesting, and I'm sad to have seem them die.

That's pretty much it really and trust me it isn't much. I don't really look forward to much, other than watching the ship sink. I know I'm being pessimistic, but I've lost my optimism a long time ago.

[Truefan21]

Lets see, the different justus, diverse personalties like the j-man and kakashi.
Character growth exhibited by shikamaru.
Naruto when he is not thinking about sasuke (like when fighting nagato)

The corruption of the five countries and their oppression on the smaller ones, it makes things interesting.

Kakashi (whats not to like)

[benelori]

I like many things...sasuke's quest is cool to watch, though after a time it gets boring, but still...I loved the kage summit, the bee fight...I was thrilled by the pein arc, and what came after was good story developing...
I don't care about the details, like how did raikage found bee...they are super s class shinobi that's why...plot no jutsu...everything is plot no jutsu...
I like the manga very much...it's about a different world, and I like how this world in it's entirety...oh yeah...except jyuubi

[jdw]

I still like that it has a chance to get better.

[CBlitz]

"still" implies that I my interest in it declined. No such thing has happened, in fact I think I love it even more now!!! ^__^

[Weapon_X]

I like practically everything about Naruto, for me, it keeps getting better as it goes along. The story gets darker, the characters start to change over arcs, the "wow" factor is still in play( for example the Jyuubi and Madara's goals etc), Kishi never fails to introduce new badass characters, and last but not least, the action. As far as I know, for 2009, Naruto was the best action manga in Jump( I LOL'd at Bleach haha).

What I loved the most was Jiraiya's and Itachi's deaths. They were the catalysts for the Pein arc(Naruto) and the Kage Summit arc(Sasuke), which were just incredible. Kishi did a great job there.

[Jammin]

I like almost everything about Naruto. My interest and affection for the series today is just as high as it was the day i started reading it. But i'll list some things that stand out to me as particularly great.:amuse

The Struggles of Uzumaki Naruto
I like the dilemmas Naruto has to go through and the way he handles them. Many times the process of dealing with them is far from smooth but for me that just helps the emotion of it all to resonate more.
The way in which he handled Pain was, in my opinion, awesome but it left some serious questions about how he would be able to handle someone whose goal ran contrary to peace and had little interest in ending hate.

Now Sasuke re-emerges as that very figure and Naruto has to find his answer to that. Those answers never come easy but that's part of what makes the series so interesting.

The Characters
Every character Kishimoto introduces just deepens my addiction to the series a little more. How he can manage to just keep pulling fascinating characters out of air is beyond my understanding. If i was to make a list of my favorite characters in the series it would be a list of all the characters, minus only 2 or 3.

The Backgrounds
I love Kishimoto's backgrounds. The environments he draws have an air of originality that is too often absent from other series. People often don't pay attention to little things like "how cool a certain tree looks" but i do; and trust me the Naruto world is filled with awesome trees.:p

[Googlez_kun]

Thanks for the awesome thread!!:D

It's refreshing to get to hear some positive stuff^^

[IzanagiDanzou]

Nothing.

Edit: Maybe the occasional appearance of Kakashi.

Quoted for truth. It's on a similar level to Eragon and Twilight (Edit: that's a bit harsh, Eragon and Twilight are just so ridiculously bad). Wish i could stop reading, but too invested. If only Naruto the character could be awesome again then i'd be happy, it was his character that got me invested. Where's that spirit and charisma that has been missing since the start of Part 2?

Right now i only like one thing in the manga. SAI, no homo. SAI has been pure awesomeness of late.

I think if i hadn't read A Song of Ice and Fire, Naruto would still seem pretty good to me. Damn you Asoiaf, :mad you've destroyed my patience for bad writing.

[Weapon_X]

The Backgrounds
I love Kishimoto's backgrounds. The environments he draws have an air of originality that is too often absent from other series. People often don't pay attention to little things like "how cool a certain tree looks" but i do; and trust me the Naruto world is filled with awesome trees.:p

Trust me, I thought the exact same thing :lmao

[AlB]

I like everything about naruto, seriously (fanatism alert!!! lol), though I miss Ero-sennin and I'm gonna miss Danzo, Naruto manga still rocks! great lore, great characters (except for sasuke, duh, first I liked him but now I hate him), great development, great everything.
It is the best manga there is, even Full Metal Alchemist doesn't compare to it, forget Bleach, Death Note and Fairy Tail(disclaimer: my opinion, I have the right to express it).

[jdw]

I like that we might find out more about Minato and Jiraiya at some point. I also like that there is still Naruto's heritage to unravel, which will search as a nice break from all of the sharingcrap, I hope.

[Oblivion]

The Backgrounds
I love Kishimoto's backgrounds. The environments he draws have an air of originality that is too often absent from other series. People often don't pay attention to little things like "how cool a certain tree looks" but i do; and trust me the Naruto world is filled with awesome trees.

omg....i am bored with all the trees by now...seriously throughout the whole manga there are like trees in EVERY CHAPTER...


The Struggles of Uzumaki Naruto
whenever naruto appears and develops a little bit more it's really a delight. especially lately where he is 'maturing' and not only being less bratty.

what i also like are the jutsus: seriously, SO MUCH AWESOME fighting styles and skills. from the simple chidori to susano'o. from normal fireballs over C4-Garuda to Frog Summon. Shikamaru's shadow, Neji's Eye etc. etc. (Gaara's Sand, Kankuro and I-T-A-C-H-I)

its especially awesome when i play naruto whateversenden on Gamecube with some friends. Their is soooo much variety. (shikamaru is eddy-like broken/imba)

[niblack89]

I still like that every match he has he is still unpredictable like using a 1000 years of death on Gaara. He turns every attack into his own. I miss his cocky attitude though lately he's been kind of girlish, fainting and complaining.

[$nipe]

What do I like about Naruto? Well, it has to do with my idea that all of the Naruto world is actually an analogy of the real world, politically speaking. Instead of having Naruto hail from a small place to rule over the world to make it seem romantic, he was born in the "greatest nation on Earth"... ideas, anyone? So you have a hero from a big country which:

- started out as as group of "different people" united by an ideal, and
- is usually criticized for sometimes messing with the internal affairs of other countries.

So you have them fighting against terrorists who are threatening with weapons of mass destruction. And it's good because it speaks of how not necesarily being the biggest means being bad; however it states that their political decisions affect others, etc.

I also LOVE the Japan bits into the narutoverse: old people state that since the youth didn't live the horrible truth of World Ninja Wars II and III, it's hard for them to understand the world as it is today. Funny because I heard a Japanese embassador say exact same thing regarding his culture a couple of years ago. There's also embedded a strong critique to the clan system and discriminations.

Then you have the views on the desires of peace, the Will of Fire, and so many thing that have enrichened the plot to make it stand out. Now, I understand that there are many downsides to the manga, but they mostly have to do with Kishi having created such a vast world, bigger than he could grasp in a straightforward action story. A good option for him could be to create a Marvel-like franchise and start writing 25 different side-stories featuring every village, Akatsuki, the Konoha 9, Kakashi and Sasuke, too bad these Japanese guys don't seem to be eager to make some money, y'all!

[Shinomori Aoshi]

When it comes down to it, I think what I enjoy most in this manga is the fact that I feel respect from the author towards the readers. By this I mean that I get the strong feeling that everything that is showed through the pages is well-thought and already planned years before it is shown, and ultimately leads to an already decided (as Kishimoto stated himself) ending. Yes, I don't believe he does ass-pulls!

[Tengu24]

lol complain..how on earth can a guy make this even up?? all the shinobis..the appearences, the storyline etc etc.. when we were playing with marbels a genius actually had all this in his head..lol and then people bashh him..priceless

[OmegaShunketsu]

well it's not what i like it's because i have read the series since 2001 that i just want/need to see it finished

[BBB Banana]

I actually like allmost everything about Naruto the only thing I seriously dislike would be this this stuff about hatred giving Sasuke chakra.

[hakuthehedgehog]

I still like the hot chicks. Mizukage's adition is awesome.

[benelori]

Well definitely this last arc was one of the best in Naruto...I won't add this last chapter, because I would rather wait for the developments, but I think this training arc from the beginning(the arrival at the island) until these lates moments(Kushina's story) was one of the most superb stories told in Naruto...the action, the flashbacks, the information revealed, different elements of art that were used in certain scenes...I vote for this arc to be the best until now...

[jiraiyanindo]

I liked the way the ninjas were drawn in part one of this manga. They looked so rough and scary with cool costume designs. I liked that a lot because now it seems that all of kishi's characters are more stream lined and fit a template. I felt like earlier in the manga, he let his creativity really flow with some of the characters and their outfits.

[sentazar]

I love multi-chapter fights. The only thing that ruins them for me is coming here and reading all the complaining about the fights being boring. The recent sasuke/danzou fight was incredible and I can't wait to see it animated.

The only fight I kinda got bored/annoyed with was the pain invasion arc. not only was it way too long and filled up with useless crap like the hunt for the real pain, but almost as if to apologize for the non-existent naruto development, kishimoto had naruto destroy pain's bodies way too quickly and easily to be believable. He made Jiraiya look like konohamaru.

Pain said himself if Jiraiya knew his abilities he would have killed him.

Naruto was given intel on pain as the fight was progressing.

Naruto has been said to surpass jiraiya (I dont believe this personally but the manga says this so /shrug)

[Roflkopt3r]

Naruto is still, next to the original (old one) hellsing anime, my favorite manga/anime since I don't like the general style of manga specifically, only the specific story. In other words, it's the only current manga/anime I follow.

I've gotta agree that Naruto had a very different and, in my opinion, also better style when the characters were closer to, well, "human" levels and in certain situations grave power differences could be overcome as the ninja all are human and accordingly mortal to simple attacks.
Now all of them morph into giant beasts or seem almost unkillable et cetera.

However, as the characters' developement was shown in a great way, the attractiveness of Naruto doesn't just vanish, that's because the characters are still continous and have their new adventures.
So in a way the attraction to Naruto shifted from "that's a cool world and great stories and so many things to discover!" into "still quite cool world, few things to discover anymore but still great stories as I want to know what happens to the characters!"

It always is a pitty but that's the way all such stories seem to be forced to go. It's just like with many other things, the feeling one had while doing it the first times will never ever come back.

[GomuGomu_Getsuga]

I haven't really liked Naruto since part 2. The main character has been lacking for too long for me to get truly excited about any development from him now. I still read it because it left it's mark on me.

[hibar90]

I kept on reading because I want to know how it ends. After reading 200+ chapters of part 1, it's a waste to just drop it. I do look forward for every chapter waiting for that final arc. Just like bleach I tend to skim through it 1min/week (bleach could take less than that lol). I think the other reason is I absolutely adore kakashi, and still waiting/hoping for his development. He's the only point left for me in reading naruto.

[elitefox]

With all of the discussion about retoconned characters, the series going done hill, a main character in decline, if he is still the main character, etc. it begs the question: what is everyone still reading Naruto for? Are there positive points left? Does everyone still look forward to new chapters?

Personally I still find Naruto very entertaining. While it is not one of my favorite series I've always looked forward to new chapters (still do). For all of the silliness, especially since the immortals arc ended, Naruto is still a good action shonen. The Pain Invasion arc was magnificent, one of the Jumps highlights last year. While I like Sasuke the character I don't like that every arcs he has been in starting with Itachi has been a multi chapter battle, with the exception of the Kage summit. But when Kishi shifts the focus to other characters I fully expect more plot oriented, less jutsu obsessed chapters. As the Pain arc demonstrated, Kishi is willing to focus on plot and dialog driven chapters when the focus is on any other character.

Hmm, I don't like the main character to be on the background like an antagonist is suppose to be so the sasuke marathon personally is a down... except for the itachi fight... the rest was better if background. It is acceptable for the antagonist to have random powerups but not take the whole scene.

I hope Naruto won't be a shadow anymore because it sucks to much for the story called Naruto.


And with current development, I like it.

[Kaiten]

I agree, I've really enjoyed recent developments. The recent flashbacks was one of my favorite parts of the series, Kishi wrote them perfectly, far exceeding my expectations. The earlier reunion of Team 7 was also amazing. While the long focus was not my favorite, Kishi had said they were coming in an interview and necessary to the over all story. As the Pain arc made evident, Naruto can not change the ninja world without saving Sasuke first. Without healing the hatred in his friend how could he be expected to heal the world? Given Sasuke was already important to the series his symbolic role would not have been possible without major character building. I do prefer Naruto centric arcs, the end of the Danzou fight was a small relief.

[Gwym]

Well, I keep reading for the sake of reading. There's so much I really dislike about the manga. Recently though, I've been really digging the Madara arcs. I love how fiendish and evil he's turning out and just how entertaining it is. I LOVED how he killed Konan. Seriously. Was like "B**** I sure as hell gonna make you wilt".

And ultimately, I do like how he's taking steps and his plan is being slowly laid out. My friend complains about the series and I always point to western comics (which he has TONS and TONS of) and bring up their weaknesses in relation to Naruto. Its still superior to everything he's given me to read. He hates when I do this, but seriously, you always have tons of characters mingling together in the world who have no business to, enemies who sometimes literally STUMBLE UPON REALITY WARPING WEAPONS. Stupid stuff. I still like, no matter how weak the story may seem at times, it has a good progression and things take time to set up and unravel before our eyes. I really enjoy that.

EDIT: Also, without any doubt, this series has the coolest explanations for powers and I love how with effort and skill any ninja can learn to better themselves in significant and often remarkable ways.

[ninjabot]

I love the mythos, the characters (for the most part) and the power levels (err...used to). I love that nothing, nothing at all is ever unbelievable for this manga, and enemies are defeated realistically (compared to Bleach, where Kubo forcefully stupifies enemies so that they can lose to heroes they could never defeat otherwise.

I love the focus on Sasuke, the logic behind his madness, and the suspense of "will he turn back/can he turn back/should he turn back". The only real thing I dislike is how Naruto himself fell into the same trap of every shounen main character of gaining power too fast, and of no real consequence/effort. Oh, and I admire, but am damn tired of the "indomitable spirit" types of characters. You know, the ones that can do great feats just by believing in themselves? I hate it only because that power only works for the main character, lol.

[Biassed]

I love the way Kishi weaves different elements so meticulously into the plot development. The way friendship, love, and hatred are portrayed in the Naruto world is just amazing. For me, there are always some elements in the manga chapter that almost persuade me to come back for more.
I really don't like the huge ideological burden put on the character like Naruto. Kinda points towards his death at the end of the manga. I hated it when naruto had no idea about his parents and never questioned who his parents were till pain arc.

If Naruto were to end somewhat unconventional like graphic novel "Watchmen" or manga "CodeGeas", that would be awesome for me.
Still, I want be to wrong, and I want to like the story till the end.

[elitefox]

I started it so I guess I have to finish it

still on my top list of manga and there is still ups on Naruto unlike bleach

[Necro-melo]

Madara.He's always has something interesting to show us

I hate too way many things about this manga and like so few..(good start lol) I still have some interest in some unsolved mysteries (or half solved..) and in a very few set of characters which are kinda minor (beside madara and the rain's trio) and we'll prolly never learn or see them anymore. If not I absolutly love the drawings and most of the characters designs, everything is so yummy to the eyes.

I totally lost interest in the fights, way to much ninjutsu spawn for my taste.I don't mind it once in awhile but for the last 2-3 years it has become really excessive. I also really don't give a crap about who's the strongest or the justus name or which (jutsu) is the most impressive..I just don't get how it can be so exciting..

i'v always been interested in the mental part, it used to be interesting but then again it seems to get more and more stupid and childish.Cmon.. for one, I just can't understand the motives/point of the fights *cough* Sasuke vs Naruto *cough* it seems like the way they act or think/talk is just so it can end up in a fight somehow so sometimes they act retarded just for that.. and I can't stand how now you clearly see who's ''bad'' and ''good'' mostly everyone has become stereotypes, just like how the story is turning so far..

still the main reason is prolly cause its a shonan manga to begin with..lol so maybe only a few girls could prolly agree this.(sorry for the english)

[grilledwatermelon]

It's hard to get into naruto when everyone is bashing on it, so I am glad there's a thread like this.

From the beginning until now, I have read naruto for naruto the character. I have always had a soft spot for a character with an anguished past especially when that character refuses to give into his circumstances and tries with everything he has to make something out of himself. I guess this is what you called an underdog:amuse. And so far I like his development as a whole, there were some parts that made me cringed, like the whole fainting episode but I think in the long run it will give his character more dimensions.

There was a part where I sort of "gave up" on the manga. That was when it started focusing on sasuke and his brother. I like sasuke's story too (maybe not as much as naruto's) and I feel bad for him for all he's been through but his story only revolves around him and revenge. You could almost say the same thing with naruto trying to save sasuke but when the story focus on him, you learn about other characters while you are at it so it's not mainly focus on him. For example, even the story of his birth, the spotlight was on his parents not him.

Sorry sort of when off in a tangent, but overall I still like naruto (manga) and with every chapter I get more intrigued and keep me waiting for more.

[anrufen]

I personally read it outta habit and a small hope that I will get the same kick out of the next chapter that i used to get in the earlier Naruto storyline!

[Franckie]

The one thing this series will always have going for it is its unified battle-system.

[Kusachu]

I think I have to say that the reason I'm still reading it is because I want to see what happens to Sasuke in the end. It's sad. It has become so convoluted that I don't even care what happens to NARUTO anymore. It's not the same manga it used to be because I used to be a hardcore fan who trash talked nay-sayers, but now, well, I feel like it has all been a waste of time. That being said, what do I still like about it? Itachi. And Sai. Tenzou too I guess. All the other characters have lost all value to me and the new characters that have been introduced, well, I don't even care enough about them to hate them. *shrug*

[Nonlife]

Right now, I like the pacing in the recent chapters with the different characters, besides Sasuke and Naruto (who I can't believe was bribed into thinking this was an S class assignment). Do you guys REMEMBER those chapters wher 5-6 pages would involve Naruto doing something completely pointless, and then it would cut to Sasuke, who would still appear cool/focused even if he was in that chapter for one page?

[WaveBossa]

There are an abundance of negative comments about naruto for one main reason...

People read it weekly, instead of reading it BY VOLUME. These mangas, in my personal opinion are NOT MEANT to be read weekly, despite the fact that they come out every week.

When i got into naruto and bleach, i read by the volume, and that was MUUUUUCH better. People spend far less time and attention to detail when reading a chapter as opposed to a volume. A volume is like a very short book, that you are likely to read again and anaylyze. However, a lone chapter is like a tweet or a snippet, that you will most likely never read again, and never fully appreciate.

If it was within my power (lolz), i would make manga only availible by volume, and it woudl cut down on the complaining sooo much.

Oh.. what do I like about naruto? Many many things, but interestingly enough it continously gives me great ideas for my own manga that I have been workin on for 6 years now. From this amazing manga, i have learned so many "Do's" and "Don'ts" so that I can make a good manga myself. And, i also got some great charachter design ideas over the years ;)

For example, this W.I.P. (85% done, just need cleaning), will most likely be used as a volume cover with the right formatting. I'm sure you can see the naruto + yourichi influence ;)

http://img442.imageshack.us/img442/3144/tigerx.jpg

[Nonlife]

That's a wonderful sig; I wish you luck on your series! (make sure the women ROCK!). Honestly, I can see where you're going with reading it by volume. I just don't have the time for it.

[Zancrow]

unanswered questions . why were the senju clan so powerful , the uzumaki clan , the ten tailed beast and most of all how did the rikudo obtain his powers ....

[Nonlife]

unanswered questions . why were the senju clan so powerful , the uzumaki clan , the ten tailed beast and most of all how did the rikudo obtain his powers ....

May want to move your post to a different forum (but to answer your question the senju/uzumaki clan were descendants of the younger son of the RikudoSennin and they kept his beliefs alive. I don't know how/why the Juubi and Rikudo wer powerful to begin with. Maybe the Juubi came from another universe, or is the embodiment of the strife/anger of mankind from long ago. As for the RikuudoSennin, who knows.)

[benelori]

May want to move your post to a different forum (but to answer your question the senju/uzumaki clan were descendants of the younger son of the RikudoSennin and they kept his beliefs alive. I don't know how/why the Juubi and Rikudo wer powerful to begin with. Maybe the Juubi came from another universe, or is the embodiment of the strife/anger of mankind from long ago. As for the RikuudoSennin, who knows.)

Hey...maybe he likes the fact that some questions are unanswered, and IMO some of them will remain that way...leaving a topic open, means that the author lets his readers to decide, which is great...I like that too:amuse

[Nonlife]

Hey...maybe he likes the fact that some questions are unanswered, and IMO some of them will remain that way...leaving a topic open, means that the author lets his readers to decide, which is great...I like that too:amuse

I understand not everything will be answered; I just don't want the Uchiha clan to be the ONLY one categorized in the "Believable Backstory" section. (Shouldn't there be a "What don't you like about Naruto? forum as well....?)

[Roflkopt3r]

There are an abundance of negative comments about naruto for one main reason...

People read it weekly, instead of reading it BY VOLUME. These mangas, in my personal opinion are NOT MEANT to be read weekly, despite the fact that they come out every week.

Apart from Bleach remaining bad no matter how it's beeng read, this is a very valuable post. Nice observance, having the coherences openly visible by not reading it piece by piece definitly makes a manga much better.
However, I'ld still preferr an armageddon-scenario (http://mangahelpers.com/forum/showthread.php?p=2129001#post2129001). The main reason is: Stories going on for such a long time like Naruto suffer from customisation in such a long run, and newly added characters beeing added to the already existing group often seem kinda misplaced... It would be way cooler to change everything and totally disrupt any expectations :amuse

[Nonlife]

Apart from Bleach remaining bad no matter how it's beeng read, this is a very valuable post. Nice observance, having the coherences openly visible by not reading it piece by piece definitly makes a manga much better.
However, I'ld still preferr an armageddon-scenario (http://mangahelpers.com/forum/showthread.php?p=2129001#post2129001). The main reason is: Stories going on for such a long time like Naruto suffer from customisation in such a long run, and newly added characters beeing added to the already existing group often seem kinda misplaced... It would be way cooler to change everything and totally disrupt any expectations :amuse

Honestly, Bleach would be better to read by volume; it feels like having a conversation - that would normally go on for 5 minutes - last 3 weeks (Reminds me of a joke where a new monk is allowed to write one word per year; it takes him 3 years to write "The. Food. Sucks". Though transitions lately seem rather deus ex machina, like the FGT, and the lucky oppurtunity to be granted the chance to train per Hyperbolic Time Chamber method)
From my perspective, nothing changes if you read it by volume (well, I skimmed b/c I know what's been happening) :
1. Naruto laments 24/7 about Sasuke.
2. Sakura's useless after Sasori
3. Not a lot of mention about the other former "Rookies"
4. There's a LOT of Uchiha hype. *

*This is from reading/skimming Part II.

I just love the pacing in the recent chapters; normally it'd probably take 3 chapters for someone like Tsuchikage to reach/encounter Kabuto and land on the giant tortises back. (Not to mention a lot of talking followed by a jutsu cliffhanger).

[elitefox]

There are an abundance of negative comments about naruto for one main reason...

People read it weekly, instead of reading it BY VOLUME. These mangas, in my personal opinion are NOT MEANT to be read weekly, despite the fact that they come out every week.

When i got into naruto and bleach, i read by the volume, and that was MUUUUUCH better. People spend far less time and attention to detail when reading a chapter as opposed to a volume. A volume is like a very short book, that you are likely to read again and anaylyze. However, a lone chapter is like a tweet or a snippet, that you will most likely never read again, and never fully appreciate.

If it was within my power (lolz), i would make manga only availible by volume, and it woudl cut down on the complaining sooo much.

Oh.. what do I like about naruto? Many many things, but interestingly enough it continously gives me great ideas for my own manga that I have been workin on for 6 years now. From this amazing manga, i have learned so many "Do's" and "Don'ts" so that I can make a good manga myself. And, i also got some great charachter design ideas over the years ;)

For example, this W.I.P. (85% done, just need cleaning), will most likely be used as a volume cover with the right formatting. I'm sure you can see the naruto + yourichi influence ;)

http://img442.imageshack.us/img442/3144/tigerx.jpg


Now I wonder how OP manages to survive :eyeroll

I just keep coming back for more, wanting the next week chapter after this week :p It has its down but not long enough, I say 3 chapters at most.


As someone said, it just became a habit, a weekly habit, I already read 514 chapters, why stop now lol, it still tops other mangas...

[Aoko Aozaki]

I think I have to say that the reason I'm still reading it is because I want to see what happens to Sasuke in the end. It's sad. It has become so convoluted that I don't even care what happens to NARUTO anymore.

One of the reasons I read the manga is the hope of seeing Sasuke dead.That aside,there are lots of stuff I like in the manga.Most of the villains are very deep,all fights are full of tension and most of the characters have great developing potential.For me,Naruto is great main character...From the beginning of the manga he is facing dilemma after dilemma and he is doing great.The manga is not in its prime yes,but it still gets the job done.

[ZERO PHOENIX]

Not much. To be honest with you Naruto used to be my favorite manga, now it's not even in my top ten. Like Bleach, I'm only reading it to see how this story plays out. I will admit though, while I didn't like Orochimaru or Madara to begin with, the more exposure they have in the story the more alluring they are becoming as villains.

I find it interesting how Madara is able to consistently pull a win or an escape out of his @$$ in a believable manner. Unlike Aizen who had a power-up x 10 for everything, Madara is limited but he knows which techniques to use when the situation calls for it, thus gaining a victory or at least making sure he doesn't get himself killed. At the risk of calling this manga predictable, I knew from the outset that Orochimaru would be the ultimate villain and it seems that's the course we're going. Even Madara, a master manipulator in his own right seems to be at least two steps behind Orochimaru at every turn.

I'm also curious to see the power of Sasuke's EMS. A throwdown between Orochi-Kabuto and Sasuke is inevitable and I'm looking forward to seeing Sasuke put him down for good. I don't usually root for the bad guys but for me, the villains make this manga. But I suppose you could say I'm not rooting for them, so much as I'm waiting for them to destroy each other. I can already see Sasuke standing over a beaten Orochi-Kabuto and Uchiha Madara before he and Naruto throwdown one last time.

[juUnior]

At the risk of calling this manga predictable, I knew from the outset that Orochimaru would be the ultimate villain and it seems that's the course we're going.
One of the best arguments is always with the "manga predictable"; I mean, when asked what happens next, ppl tell sth and then its not what they predicted suposedly of manga who is predictable ^^' I'm looking forward to what you wrote, maybe you're the one who quesses correctly how Kabuto will end. I, for one, know that Kabuto sooner or later will be defeated/killer/whatever, but I don't know how Kishi wants to finish him off. Thats not what I call predictable, but, oh well, its just me xd

Still, I'm also interested in HOW manga will end ; > <probably sarcasm xd>

[wooticus]

huh hard to say.

i often compare naruto to dragon ball because i think there are some similarities.

the naruto mange before the time skip was very plot and character oriented if you ask. it was about adventure, growing up, going on journey, becomming stronger and the motives of friendship and the "way of the ninja". the kages were etablished as some sort of super ninja which couldn't be compared to anything around and orochimaru was the great evil.

And then came the timeskip and in the beginning it was quite good, but after 2-3 arcs (i don't want to complain but it began with the reintroduction of sasuke) it went the same way dragon ball z went. Some characters became extremely strong compared to the others, the fights more and more destructive and some things just weng wrong.
If i may bring out one example, Sasukes new found team was hyped quite much in the beginning. Then they went against killerbee, a fight in which sasuke basically was already killed twice and then finally one because he just did master the strongest fire jutsu around by getting through a few emotions. Just like dragon ball z, someone pisses off some others guy who get extremely strong because of that. And then there was the scene where Suigetsu took a direct hit from the hachibi chakra beam and survived it. i just thought, wow, what a guy, he will play quite the role when it comes to the big confrontation. and then he just vanished, we don't even know whether he's still alive.

But sorry for talking about what i don't like. Well i like naruto because it currently shows the big ninja world that was often hinted in the first part and it will be a good conclusion to the story.

maybe some of you know the drama "faust" by the german author goethe. i don't want to talk about the content, but the structure. there are two parts in it. in the first part the character goethe does a deal with the devil. if the devil manages to fulfil his wishes for joy, love and whatever he gets his soul as exchange. so in this part goethe lives through the small, personal things in life, love, women, friendship, "party", personal loss and the second part is about those not-so-personal things like politics, war and such things that happen between countries.
that's just a concept that already worked excellent hundreds of years ago and i like it also in naruto =)

[3c]

No matter what Naruto becomes, the fights in Naruto will always be the best in the manga industry in my opinion, there's not even a shred of doubt in my mind about that. Battles in Naruto just have so much more "depth" or complexity to them, there's so many different conditions that play in and ultimately affect who will be the victor. There's two things that makes Naruto battles; Match ups (the Nature Wheel, Strengths vs Weaknesses), it's the complexity of this grand mixture. And secondly and perhaps even more important; It's the strategic side of the battles which makes Naruto so unique. There's simply no manga (not that I know of), that can match Naruto in this department. Every battle is heavily influenced by strategy, to a greater or lesser extent. Sasuke vs Danzou is a prime example of a recent battle which wasn't mainly won with the use of grand techniques, but with brain power and trickery. No matter what happens in Naruto, the battles will always be a big part of why I love the manga. There's simply no manga that can satisfy me as much as Naruto can in terms of battles.

[KABADAYI]

naruto is the best manga i have ever read. And naruto is the best char. in the anime/manga universe. im just waiting to see naruto kicking sasuke's ass, that's all

[ZERO PHOENIX]

I have a question for the two of you (3c and 4sprz). I'm only curious. If you haven't read each and every manga out there, how can you say that Naruto is the best? I'm not bashing your views or the content of Naruto, simply asking a very important question. How can Naruto be the best anything if you haven't read everything out there? Granted, Naruto could be the best anime you've ever seen or the best manga you've ever read, and both of these could be logically correct. However, to say that it is the best in either category is simply absurd.

Normally I would say to the propagators of this ideaology that they're simply too young, and too inexperienced to know any better. However this is clearly not the case as both of you are right behind me by only a year or two. So you've clearly been around. I'm just wondering what makes Naruto the best when you haven't seen or read everything there is to read.

For example, you 4sprz say that Naruto is the best character in anime and manga which clearly is not the case. Naruto is a composite character, the same type we've seen since the 80s. He can't be the best if he isn't unique. I'm not bashing Naruto as a character, simply pointing out to you that Naruto isn't any different from a typical protagonist that we've seen for more than 20 years now. How can he be the best when he's the same? That's like going to a paint store and saying wow, that's the best beidge I've ever seen.

2c, you stated that Naruto's battles are complex. Well, that can be true on some level, but there are other manga that have done the same sort of thing and done it far better. JoJo's Bizarre Adventure is a somewhat underground title whose battle sequences are far more complex than either Naruto or Bleach. Jojo's Bizarre Adventure and Fist of the North Star do not equal the complexity of Naruto's battles. They completely surpass the complexity of Naruto's battles. I'm pointing out those two titles simply for comparative purposes. I'm not knocking Naruto, simply pointing to the very real fact that it is hardly the best. It's one of the most popular, but hardly the best.

[MSofAofCOCA]

There will always be people that will critique every series/ character.
Personaly, i have seen better developed characters than Naruto, but he is still up there.
Way back when, the plot was so much slower and made a bit more sense. The last few chapters have been okay, but about ..... 5 chapters ago, the series took a very bad turn (it became too flashy, in a 'why the hell didn't you use this attack before" way)
there was also another time about a year ago when i stopped reading for a couple months after missing one week. why? because there was nothing 'interesting' in my memory from the last chapter i read to make me want to read ahead. it turned into a series that i read just to say that i have read it.
I had to nearly force myself to start it up again, and wasn't too too impressed with it. Ever after the Destruction of Konoha arc, there have been too many introductions/death ect. i know they are in the middle of war and have to work fast, but jumping from one skirmish to another too quickly isn't interesting sometimes.
Overall, i like naruto for the variety. Not everyone is completely different like in One Piece, but Naruto characters aren't like Bleach generic-samurais.
Villain wise, i have seen better than Madara and Kabuto, and that's probably because neither have shown enough of a hint of power to make me go "OOOH CRAP he's badass"
The skirmish with Konan was pathetic battle wise (albeit touching), and i had suspected the Zetsu army at one point, so it wasn't suprising. thankfully, the story is picking up with the resurrections now =D
I'm a big fight/war type of person and enjoy major showdowns instead of one on one battles, so for me the manga is once again picking up =)

[3c]

I have a question for the two of you (3c and 4sprz). I'm only curious. If you haven't read each and every manga out there, how can you say that Naruto is the best? I'm not bashing your views or the content of Naruto, simply asking a very important question. How can Naruto be the best anything if you haven't read everything out there? Granted, Naruto could be the best anime you've ever seen or the best manga you've ever read, and both of these could be logically correct. However, to say that it is the best in either category is simply absurd.

Like you said, that statement was indeed a flawed one. Obviously I haven't read every manga out there, I doubt anyone has. In that case no one can state ultimate statements. However in a world where there's simply such a vast amount of material, we're kind of required to be able to express such ultimate statements, if we have enough experience to back up those said statements. Indeed I haven't read every manga out there, I haven't even read the titles you listed so I can't draw conclusions on those either, but I have read quite a number of titles. A more correct statement would indeed be that it's the best in that field (battle sequences) based on what I've read.

Getting back to the topic again, another thing about Naruto which I've always enjoyed a lot is the characters. Kishi, despite his flaws is excellent in the character development department, especially when exploring a character's past and death scenes (when he really tries, like with Jiraiya).

[jdw]

I have a question for the two of you (3c and 4sprz). I'm only curious. If you haven't read each and every manga out there, how can you say that Naruto is the best? I'm not bashing your views or the content of Naruto, simply asking a very important question. How can Naruto be the best anything if you haven't read everything out there? Granted, Naruto could be the best anime you've ever seen or the best manga you've ever read, and both of these could be logically correct. However, to say that it is the best in either category is simply absurd.

Normally I would say to the propagators of this ideaology that they're simply too young, and too inexperienced to know any better. However this is clearly not the case as both of you are right behind me by only a year or two. So you've clearly been around. I'm just wondering what makes Naruto the best when you haven't seen or read everything there is to read.

For example, you 4sprz say that Naruto is the best character in anime and manga which clearly is not the case. Naruto is a composite character, the same type we've seen since the 80s. He can't be the best if he isn't unique. I'm not bashing Naruto as a character, simply pointing out to you that Naruto isn't any different from a typical protagonist that we've seen for more than 20 years now. How can he be the best when he's the same? That's like going to a paint store and saying wow, that's the best beidge I've ever seen.

2c, you stated that Naruto's battles are complex. Well, that can be true on some level, but there are other manga that have done the same sort of thing and done it far better. JoJo's Bizarre Adventure is a somewhat underground title whose battle sequences are far more complex than either Naruto or Bleach. Jojo's Bizarre Adventure and Fist of the North Star do not equal the complexity of Naruto's battles. They completely surpass the complexity of Naruto's battles. I'm pointing out those two titles simply for comparative purposes. I'm not knocking Naruto, simply pointing to the very real fact that it is hardly the best. It's one of the most popular, but hardly the best.

Meh. I don't think something has to be unique to be the best. To follow your paint analogy, there can be hundreds or thousands of beige paints, but the best one could have superior washability, durability, coverage, trueness of color, or color consistency from can to can, or other qualities that make a paint the best. So, in a world of beige paints, there could exist a best.

So, while it may be impossible to say Naruto is the best manga or character in a manga without having read all to compare (I am going along with this for argument sake), it just as useless to say he isn't the best because he isn't unique. Even if Naruto is similar to other manga or manga characters, or even inferior is certain respects, it does not mean that the sum of it parts cannot surpass others, even those with superior parts. This isn't to say that the best cannot also be unique, it just isn't a requirement, imo.

Also, I think it is possible to determine a "best" manga without having read them all. One can compare true contenders. For instance, we know that a brand new Kia isn't going to compare to a Mercedes/McLaren vehicle, so there is no need to waste time or energy in a comparison. The sum of the Kia, even on its best day, will not compare. We compare the Mercedes/McLaren to true contenders, like a Bugatti Veyron, or other car with a shot at the title (I am just pulling up respected names for the sake of discussion, I am no auto enthusiasts). The world boxing champ doesn't have to go around beating up all living people, including infants to prove he is the best in the world, he just has to beat contenders. That is enough for reasonable people.

[Jammin]

I feel comfortable saying that Naruto is the best Manga simply because i can only make that judgment based on the series with which i am familiar.

I've read some good series but, speaking in overall quality, i still think Naruto blows most stuff out of the water.One Piece is often viewed as being "perfect" simply because some recent arcs have been absolutely fantastic. But when i think of the series as a whole there are plenty of arcs that didn't work for me, jokes that seemed stupid(and not in a funny way), and characters that came across as too annoying for me to be able to care about. Before Water 7 One Piece seemed fairly unremarkable to me. I'm certainly not ready to put it ahead of Naruto

Bleach is the opposite. It probably doesn't get nearly the credit it deserves simply because the last arc(which was waaay to long) got all bogged down and convoluted. Bleach on average is a pretty good series and probably the truest successor to Dragon Ball but when i measure the Pros and Cons it seems like Naruto is leagues ahead.

Naruto has it's warts. It doesn't reinvent the wheel for shounen heroism. It's plot is prone to go a little funky now and again. But on the other side of things the characters are awesome(for the most part though i wouldn't complain if a certain rapper fell down a well), the fights are generally the best thought out and intricate you'll find, and the art is typically great(particularly the backgrounds).

When i measure the Pros and Cons of all the manga i've read and try to come up with which one is the best i still think of Naruto, and for me it's not close.:amuse

[ameya730]

for me, in case of naruto the sum is greater than the parts. if we have to view individual things like art, story characters etc i am sure there are other manga that might be on par or even better than naruto but the series as a whole has been a lot of fun for me.

its probably the only manga apart from berserk where i love reading the individual chapters as well as the all of them clumped together.

another thing i love about this manga is that old techniques do not become obsolete due to new one. a rasegan or kage mane jutsu still remain just as useful inspite of some uber jutsus being thrown around.

[ZERO PHOENIX]

Such fascinating arguments. First I would like to curse because for whatever reason, my previous post, well didn't post. Damn. Secondly, I would like to commend 3c, JDW, and ameya for their arguments. Third I would like to respond myself. My apologies if I somehow posted this already as it does not appear that I have.

3c, you and I have an agreement in some regard. While I don't find the characters in Naruto unique, I am interested in the likes of Pain, Neji, and Sasuke. When this manga started to go downhill, Pain was a huge thing keeping it going, and part of the reason I continue to read Naruto is because I can't wait to see how Sasuke owns Orochi-Kabuto and Madara because yeah, it's going to happen. I was also pleased to see Gaara getting just a bit more airtime, but I would like to see Neji get more exposure too. I'd like to address one JDW at this point.

I liked your analogy about the paints. :) Your counter argument was also interesting. "So, while it may be impossible to say Naruto is the best manga or character in a manga without having read all to compare (I am going along with this for argument sake), it just as useless to say he isn't the best because he isn't unique." I see. So we'll use Merriam-Websters definition of the best as "excelling above all others." Naruto does not. It's a good read don't get me wrong, but when compared to "all-others" it hardly excels.

For example, if we address the art via the manga or anime, there are literally dozens of titles (anything from CLAMP for example) that are far better than Naruto. Jojo's Bizarre Adventure and Fist of the North Star each have better battles than Naruto. If we want to address politics, the worlds of Escaflowne and Code Geass deal with it far better and that also includes the characterization of war itself. If something is the best, it excels over all others. This title does not. Still, I liked your argument in regards to Naruto being able to surpass its superiors based on the sum of its parts, to quote Big Boss, "That was impressive!"

However, you erred in alleging that it is possible to determine the best manga without having read them all. The very definition of “best” contradicts your arguments. Best > to excel over all others. How can Naruto be the best when “all others” have not been taken into account? Do you see what I’m saying? To be the best, an item of a certain type must be compared with all others of a certain type. Unless Naruto is compared to every manga and anime out there, and unless it has been proven to surpass them all, it is not the best. That’s not a flaky opinion. That’s plain logic.

Concerning your argument with the Mercedes/McLaren, it doesn’t work. It actually proves my point more than it proves yours. Those vehicles are considered the best because they have been compared to all other cars and they have been proved superior. Also, contrary to your argument about the world champ, well yeah he does have to beat everyone to “truly” be considered the champ. Boxing is a sport granted, but when dealing with the individual himself who dares to call himself the world champ, do we hold him to such a lofty tower because he’s simply the best in his sport, or if he is the best in the entire world? There is a tremendous different.

I’ll give you a somewhat comical but fitting example from the animeverse. In Street Fighter II: the series, Ken and Ryu were world champions. They thought they were the best fighters anywhere in the world and so they thought they’d take a trip to learn more about martial arts. In their first trip to America, Guile nearly beat them both to death when they tried to pick a fight with him in a bar. Guile beat Ken and Ryu with ease, actually beating Ken while fighting a hangover. Clearly Ken and Ryu didn't beat everyone the world had to offer. Later on they did become worthy of their titles yes, but only after going up against truly great fighters who didn't compete in mere tournaments because they didn't think it was worth their time. (For example, what's more important to one M. Bison, running a criminal organization or fighting in a world tournament? You get the idea). Why did I use such an example? There is a difference between being the best in someone’s opinion (meaningless), being the best by title (little meaning whatsoever), and truly be the absolute best in the textbook sense of one’s essence (the only one that matters).

It might be reasonable for “you” to think that wearing a belt makes one the best in the world, but I demand more than that. Of course I’m not knocking you or your views, simply I have a hard-time trying to find anyone who can compete with me on this level. I found your arguments interesting and I simply wanted to counter with my own. You are powerful indeed.

[jdw]

I'd like to address one JDW at this point.

I liked your analogy about the paints. :) Your counter argument was also interesting. "So, while it may be impossible to say Naruto is the best manga or character in a manga without having read all to compare (I am going along with this for argument sake), it just as useless to say he isn't the best because he isn't unique." I see. So we'll use Merriam-Websters definition of the best as "excelling above all others." Naruto does not. It's a good read don't get me wrong, but when compared to "all-others" it hardly excels.

For example, if we address the art via the manga or anime, there are literally dozens of titles (anything from CLAMP for example) that are far better than Naruto. Jojo's Bizarre Adventure and Fist of the North Star each have better battles than Naruto. If we want to address politics, the worlds of Escaflowne and Code Geass deal with it far better and that also includes the characterization of war itself. If something is the best, it excels over all others. This title does not. Still, I liked your argument in regards to Naruto being able to surpass its superiors based on the sum of its parts, to quote Big Boss, "That was impressive!"

However, you erred in alleging that it is possible to determine the best manga without having read them all. The very definition of “best” contradicts your arguments. Best > to excel over all others. How can Naruto be the best when “all others” have not been taken into account? Do you see what I’m saying? To be the best, an item of a certain type must be compared with all others of a certain type. Unless Naruto is compared to every manga and anime out there, and unless it has been proven to surpass them all, it is not the best. That’s not a flaky opinion. That’s plain logic.

Concerning your argument with the Mercedes/McLaren, it doesn’t work. It actually proves my point more than it proves yours. Those vehicles are considered the best because they have been compared to all other cars and they have been proved superior. Also, contrary to your argument about the world champ, well yeah he does have to beat everyone to “truly” be considered the champ. Boxing is a sport granted, but when dealing with the individual himself who dares to call himself the world champ, do we hold him to such a lofty tower because he’s simply the best in his sport, or if he is the best in the entire world? There is a tremendous different.

I’ll give you a somewhat comical but fitting example from the animeverse. In Street Fighter II: the series, Ken and Ryu were world champions. They thought they were the best fighters anywhere in the world and so they thought they’d take a trip to learn more about martial arts. In their first trip to America, Guile nearly beat them both to death when they tried to pick a fight with him in a bar. Guile beat Ken and Ryu with ease, actually beating Ken while fighting a hangover. Clearly Ken and Ryu didn't beat everyone the world had to offer. Later on they did become worthy of their titles yes, but only after going up against truly great fighters who didn't compete in mere tournaments because they didn't think it was worth their time. (For example, what's more important to one M. Bison, running a criminal organization or fighting in a world tournament? You get the idea). Why did I use such an example? There is a difference between being the best in someone’s opinion (meaningless), being the best by title (little meaning whatsoever), and truly be the absolute best in the textbook sense of one’s essence (the only one that matters).

It might be reasonable for “you” to think that wearing a belt makes one the best in the world, but I demand more than that. Of course I’m not knocking you or your views, simply I have a hard-time trying to find anyone who can compete with me on this level. I found your arguments interesting and I simply wanted to counter with my own. You are powerful indeed.

Under your example of facing every possible foe, etc., it still leaves a lot to be desired because there would still be a newborn infant, disabled paraplegic fighter, or some 4 year old junior league kickboxer somewhere that Ken or Ryu did not face, and thus they cannot truly claim to be the strongest until everyone has been beaten. This is unreasonable. However, reasonable people know the infant and 4 year old junior kickboxer have no chance and do not require Ken or Ryu to beat up or kill infants, the disabled, and toddlers on the way to the top. Same as with the Kia v. the Mercedes/McLaren, no one requires the cars to actually face off. They can compare without driving personally.

When it comes to manga, reviews exist, and various measures of quality one can use to contribute to opinions. It would be no different from a driving enthusiast hiring an assistant to help him drive and compare cars. They would come up with measures/comparisons, but the enthusiast need not personally drive every vehicle. The lowly assistant can help with the process of elimination. Certain ones can be dismissed for clear lack of quality, etc. Anyway, I guess we can differ on this and it is ok.

[kkck]

I personally don't enjoy the manga that much anymore(not saying it never has good moments though). At least I don't enjoy nearly as much as I do bleach or even one piece or fairy tail. For me the manga went downhill during the pein invasion arc. There was so much wrong with that arc it's ridiculous. Right now I read the manga mostly because I want to see the ending (the sooner the better, I'd be thrilled if the manga ended mere months from now).

1.- Naruto became a better sage than jiraiya(not necessarily stronger though) in a matter of weeks. Seriously, how does that make a shred of sense? Whatever happened to the slow learner? He didn't even use the shadow clone training.

2.- Hinata's ridiculous confession. I found the whole situation outright stupid. Above that, pein did not kill her. Seriously, pein had been mentioned to have killed even babies at some point and he hesitated to stab hinata in the head? Heck, kishi was going to call freaking shen long and revive everyone anyways so he might as well have kept pein in character.

3.- Naruto used his messiah complex to convince pein to change. Whatever happened to nagato's own god complex and objectives? I find it absurd he would just entrust everything he had worked for (even if warped) to an hormonal teenager with a messiah complex. Normally you would ignore teenagers opinions for a reason, TEENAGERS OPINIONS DON"T MATTER(well, this is a shounen so I guess it is ok if this does not apply).

Now, from them a series of more absurd situations came by.

Naruto left HM completely behind and started to train to take the kyubi's power for himself. He succeeded in leeching the kyubi's power. It's like being a sage didn't make him by default one of the strongest ninjas in the world. Above that he has a number of imminent powerups. He is going to figure out nature's energy will only improve his jinchuiriki form, he is going to acquire rokudo's power (not necessarily a sharingan or rinnengan though) and even then sasuke will have to hand naruto his own ass in a golden plate because the crow thing itachi had naruto suck and swallow would only be relevant if sasuke does beat naruto(given the context of the conversation between naruto and itachi at least). What would be the plot purpose of that thing if naruto can beat sasuke on his own? Worst case scenario naruto does not even get to fight seriously and is trolled just so that thing gets to be relevant.

Now, lets examine what the consequences of naruto acquiring rokudo's power are. First and foremost we have to consider naruto has an essentially limitless poll of chakra. basically, infinite power. What was rikudo's power to begin with? He could use any and all jutsu but most importantly he had izanagi, which is my main point. Izanagi is a jutsu with the power to create and bend reality to his whim. He can make reality into illusions and illusions into reality. Lets also consider nature's energy could potentially increase izanagi so we basically have an izanagi 2.0. Lets also consider naruto's background as a wannabee messiah. Now,lets do math.

Infinite chakra pool(natural and kyubi) + nature's energy + izanagi 2.0 = ?

See where I am going? Naruto is on his way to becoming GOD. He will have the chakra pool and the jutsu to create things at his discretion. it's outright stupid. I want everyone to remember sasuke will still have to beat naruto so that itachi's crow is relevant so its not like we should be surprised when it turns out sasuke also has the power of god or something. Who knows, nagato had 2 eyes right? EMS and rinnengan seems like a pretty combination(naruto could get the second eye though).

[M3J]

No matter what Naruto becomes, the fights in Naruto will always be the best in the manga industry in my opinion, there's not even a shred of doubt in my mind about that. Battles in Naruto just have so much more "depth" or complexity to them, there's so many different conditions that play in and ultimately affect who will be the victor. There's two things that makes Naruto battles; Match ups (the Nature Wheel, Strengths vs Weaknesses), it's the complexity of this grand mixture. And secondly and perhaps even more important; It's the strategic side of the battles which makes Naruto so unique. There's simply no manga (not that I know of), that can match Naruto in this department. Every battle is heavily influenced by strategy, to a greater or lesser extent. Sasuke vs Danzou is a prime example of a recent battle which wasn't mainly won with the use of grand techniques, but with brain power and trickery. No matter what happens in Naruto, the battles will always be a big part of why I love the manga. There's simply no manga that can satisfy me as much as Naruto can in terms of battles.

To add to this, the fights in Naruto also serve as a way to show more about the characters, and it involves psychological aspects. The way Neji mentally attacked Hinata was smart; in most manga I've read, I've rarely seen such thing. It's just a bit of trashtalk, and only time someone feels affected is when the person is losing. In Naruto, Hinata was getting upset and feeling more worthless when talking with Neji, and their combat brought her self-worth down. However, despite knowing she'd lose and she was no match, Naruto's cheers gave her confidence and made her keep going despite the damage she got.

In Dragon Ball and even Dragon Ball Z, we see the same thing, but it's not the cheers that revive the character. In mangas liike Dragon Ball, Yu Yu Hakusho, Beelzebub, and etc, the protagonists fight because they enjoy fighting. In some cases we see them fight for revenge or for others, but not always. In Naruto, many fights we see, it's usually for the sake of someone. Shikamaru, Ino, Chouji, and even Kakashi fought to avenge Asuma AND get rid of Akatsuki pair. Naruto, who was scared to fight Gaara, regained his courage and was willing to die just to save Sakura; he didn't want to fight Gaara but he was forced to to save someone he held dear.

Whenever we see the characters fight, it's not just fighting or bringing out the big guns like Ultimate Super Duper Death Ray Beam thingie. We also see how each fight affects the characters and what led them to act the way they do in the fight. Naruto vs. Neji is a great example. It wasn't about using deadly moves, but it was about one's beliefs. Naruto believed in avenging Hinata and thought that Neji's predestined belief was crap whereas Neji wanted to prove his superiority to the main branch and believed that he was predestined to win. it wasn't for the sake of the fight that Naruto refused to give up, but for the sake of his beliefs that he still kept going, much like Luffy when he was trying to rescue Ace.

Sure, characters may be overpowered right now, especially Sasuke and Naruto, but that does not mean they're undefeatable. We saw Sasuke get nearly killed by Killerbee twice and would have been killed by Raikage if it weren't for his Mangekyo Sharingan, and if it weren't for Zetsu and Tobi, Tsuchikage and Mizukage would have owned him. Naruto needed the help of the frogs to beat Pain, and when Deva's power came back, the tide turned over in Deva's favor. If Hinata didn't come in the way and made Naruto go Kyuubi, it was likely Naruto would have been beaten and captured. Pain, the man who defeated Jiraiya was himself not as invincible as previously thought, although he was pretty powerful.

In most other manga, only the current villain at the moment has a chance of beating the protagonist/s, but in Naruto, many villains actually have a chance. Tobi, Kabuto, Pain, Itachi, and most of the Akatsuki could kill Naruto if they wanted to but because he's a jinchuuriki, they can't.

I enjoy reading the fights for the same reason as 3c said and because there's more to the characters and their motivation. We learned from Zabuza that shinobi were just hired assassins who were tools. We learned from Gaara that even kids are sacrificed to become weapons for their village. We learn from Naruto that he'd rather die than let any of his loved ones die. Hell, even in fights we see characters mature, and we also see their maturity more clearly. Against Kiba, we saw just how much Naruto grew since we first met him, and against Neji, we saw the result of his training with Jiraiya. Good thing about Naruto is that even good people die, like Asuma, Hayate, Jiraiya, and etc. Their deaths aren't meaningless as well... maybe with the exception of Hayate's.

[ZERO PHOENIX]

"I live for this $#!*" - Vin Diesel

YES! You don't get these kinds of discussions everywhere. Well jdw you make a good argument to which I would counter, what if it's Ken vs. the car? Heh, kidding. We all know how that turned out. I'd like to address kkck's argument.

1) Yes we agree. While it is a given that this generation will surpass the previous one, Naruto surpassing Jiraiya in three years tops was complete bull. Sasuke surpassing Orochimaru makes sense because Sasuke is an Uchiha for one. A natural born genius with the Sharingan (cough godmode cough). Even if we give Naruto the years he spent training with Jiraiya and adding on the time now, for him to surpass Jiraiya is still total BS. We agree here.

2) I thought Hinata's confession was heartfelt and loving. Yeah it was dumb as hell in the anime but the manga played it straight. What I found objectionable was the fact that Naruto basically didn't give a crap. As far as Pain not killing Hinata, he probably meant to and would have if Naruto didn't transform. He wanted Naruto to feel true pain and he was probably going to finish her off. He just didn't get the chance to.

3) Well this is what I mean earlier. Naruto is a composite character. He, like so many dozens of other characters has an ability to change people around him whether it is logical or illogical. Apart from being cliche, it's not unbelievable per se because so many other characters have done it. While it's typically true that an adult would ignore a teenager because in many cases a teens opinions mean nothing in the real world or when placed before an adult, but again, Naruto changes people. You can compare him to Goku and dozens of other characters in this regard. Recall that Tien, Yamcha, Piccolo, and Vegeta were all badguys before meeting Goku. But they changed through fighting him and understanding him.

4) Yes Naruto's powerups are absurd but again, Naruto is the same as so many other works out there. For example, in DBZ we were told that the Super Saiyan was the most powerful fighter in the universe. We've seen this was not true. There were a hell of a lot of fighters who could pound a SS into the ground so then we went to an Ascended SS, then an SS2, then a SS3, and then a SS4 (though the canon of this is debateable). During the Saiyan arc, Vegeta was already strong enough to destroy a planet and his power level was what, 5000 at the most? Goku should have been a god by the time the Majin Buu saga rolled around. So yes in many ways Naruto's power-ups are absurd they work and don't work because it is a manga depending on the situation. Naruto surpassing Jiraiya and defeating Pain are both a load of crap. Totally. But him learning nature chakra, improving his control of the Kyuubi, are both plausible in the manga.

5) True, you might say naruto is one his way to becoming a god, although I preferred Pain's divinity personally. But in that case we'll just have to see. It wouldn't surprise me if Kishimoto forget all about the power that Itachi gave Naruto given how inconsistent this work is.

[Nonlife]

1) We agree. Naruto's growth was a total disappointment. IMO, he lacked more common sense than his Part I self. (He didn't have to take "remaining a fool" literally.)

2) I like Hinata's confession, and I liked the fact the anime extended the "fight" btwn her and Pein. It seemed evident it affected Naruto (He went into Kyuubi-mode; and, after reverting back to normla, he shed tears of joy when he asked Katsuya if she was still alive); but, it was painful seeing that Kishimoto didn't follow through with Naruto talking to her about it after the battle. Lord knows he had the time after he talked to his friends about leaving Sasuke to him.

3) It's true. People have admitted they were changed by Naruto; yet, I can't help thinking Gaara/The Sand Village changing after meeting Naruto was more believable than anyone else who acknowledged him.

4) The powerups are absurd; but DBZ was so long ago. There've been plenty of Shonen manga that have substantially explained the nature behinds someone's power up (like what clan their from/Kekkai Genki). (In DBZ, you work by a training regime; you get stronger. It never went on explaing the nature of their ki affected their growth in strength. Goku/Vegeta/Gohan/Trunks/Gohan had were aliens/had alien blood in them; Cell had SOME of their DNA; the Androids ran on some infinite power source; and Buu was a product of Magic??)

5) Pretty much sums up what I'm thinking. (Someone said Kishimoto's just wants to finish his manga; and these consistent plotholes - if left untouched - provide some evidence behind that "rumor").

[M3J]

. You can compare him to Goku and dozens of other characters in this regard. Recall that Tien, Yamcha, Piccolo, and Vegeta were all badguys before meeting Goku. But they changed through fighting him and understanding him.
You can't compare him to Goku though... Naruto changed most of the people by himself whereas Goku usually had help. Roshi was the first one that made Tien reconsider what he was doing, then while fighting Goku, Tien finally felt challenge and wanted to win on his own terms, which made him betray his master. Piccolo and Goku had to work together to beat Raditz, and even then, it was Gohan who made Piccolo turn good. Vegeta was evil, but he had to work with Krillin and Gohan to beat Frieza. I dunno, but I guess on Earth he had no reason to destroy anymore, just train to surpass Goku. And didn't Yamcha turn good for Bulma or something? I forgot.

Anyway, unlike Goku, Naruto changed the people he came across by talking to them. Neji and Gaara didn't change just by fighting him, they changed by listening to what Naruto had to say. Goku's enemies tended to change midfight or after fight, without talking, if any. There's more emotional depth to Naruto's fights than Dragon Ball's fights IMO, with the possible exception of elder Piccolo, Frieza, and even Tambourine (if he killed Krillin).

Plus, the good people that Naruto fought turned good almost immediately afterwards, whereas for some villains like Vegeta or Piccolo, it took a while or a saga to do so. One of the best things about Naruto the manga and Naruto the character is this: being able to relate to his opponents and get through them with words, not just fights. It's why his generation has faith in him, whereas the faith in Goku was more towards his ability to fight no matter the odds.

[Darui Jonin]

In my personal opinion Naruto(Shippuuden) is the best anime ever for me its interesting,dramatic and has veryyyyyy gooood plot also the fifhts and the characters are very goood so my advice is keep watching its only going to gen more interesting...

[xXan]

Everything!! i love curent Naruto. The only thing that i hope will end soon is the Edo's so we can get to real nins fighting but i still like even the edo's.

Well at the very least Naruto does not have dollhouse battles with teddy pig....

[Nonlife]

I like the other fact OTHER characters have appeared & are participating in this war. (Even if it is the tailend of the manga, and some of these characters seem more HYPED than the non-Uchiha members of Akatsuki.)

[steelwingcrash1]

For me, Naruto is my fourth best anime.

Anyway, what I still like about Naruto are its twisting plots which are not easily predictable AND its roster of interesting characters.

Even though many find that the Edo Tensei gives off the decline in the series, I find this sub-arc in Naruto very interesting. I get to see other characters whom I thought have been laid eternally to rest.

Justice is also given to some characters for them to develop.

Those, I think, are good points why Naruto is still an interesting read for me.

[videogamer64]

I just want to see Sasuke again. The transition from emo to evil did wonders for his character. Sadly Kishi realized this and had to promptly hide him away in exchangefor the bull we are currently getting in the new chapters.

[Raicrune]

Not sure if someone said this already but I am reading Naruto because its more discussable. I never seen any other manga with so many discussions on mangahelpers about each chapter. The posters come up with different theories, discussions, arguments, interesting myth stories that has to do with naruto and i love to read it. Its like reading the newspaper and then talk about it with your colleagues wich makes the "story" even more interesting.

And ofcourse .. nothing to do at work so..

[Nonlife]

I just want to see Sasuke again. The transition from emo to evil did wonders for his character. Sadly Kishi realized this and had to promptly hide him away in exchangefor the bull we are currently getting in the new chapters.

Call it what you will. I just like the fact he's expanding on OTHER characters - besides his favorite. Seeing his brand new Sharingan is the only reason I want him to make an appearance.

[Raicrune]

1.- Naruto became a better sage than jiraiya(not necessarily stronger though) in a matter of weeks. Seriously, how does that make a shred of sense? Whatever happened to the slow learner? He didn't even use the shadow clone training.


1) Yes we agree. While it is a given that this generation will surpass the previous one, Naruto surpassing Jiraiya in three years tops was complete bull. Sasuke surpassing Orochimaru makes sense because Sasuke is an Uchiha for one. A natural born genius with the Sharingan (cough godmode cough). Even if we give Naruto the years he spent training with Jiraiya and adding on the time now, for him to surpass Jiraiya is still total BS. We agree here.


1) We agree. Naruto's growth was a total disappointment. IMO, he lacked more common sense than his Part I self. (He didn't have to take "remaining a fool" literally.)

Wasnt it that Naruto surpassed Jiraiya with controling sagemode ONLY? Jiraiya just coulnd perfect it. Naruto has the talent to pick things up quicker then others. I would totaly agree with you if its mentioned in the manga that Naruto surpassed Jiraiya as a Shinobi (though i dont remember seeing that) Naruto needs years and years of experience.

[Eprst]

Naruto is a big big child, I wonder how will Kishi show us the change in Naruto?
Like i dont know about this war will he bacome one of the generals in this war or he remains just as a soldier, but in future he is suppposed to become a hokage or even somebody more powerfull than hokage.

Naruto changed since the fight and conversation with Nagato, I wonder what will catalize new change in him? somehow i think Nagatos words about war will be true, and after Naruto will see deaths and sacrifices of his close friends - he will mature, I think as a grown person his personality will remain Minatos personality

[ashher]

^naruto will not change. That has been the whole point. He'll land himself in some sort of leading position, hokage or something else, but he won't do it by changing himself and adapting to the ways of the world. He'll do it by changing those ways.

[Nonlife]

^naruto will not change. That has been the whole point. He'll land himself in some sort of leading position, hokage or something else, but he won't do it by changing himself and adapting to the ways of the world. He'll do it by changing those ways.

Still sounds like he'll change - in the long run - by trying to understand the ways of the world.

[Rosebunse]

Still sounds like he'll change - in the long run - by trying to understand the ways of the world.

Well, you know what they say: the more things change, the more they stay the same.

[Delbi]

Naruto has gone under significant changes since Part 1, and those will continue until the end of the manga. One of those changes will be his realization that you can't reason with everyone, and that everyone can't be saved. What does that mean? We'll see him try and kill either Madara or Kabuto if not both.

Naruto has begun to understand the world more, but he still hasn't quite matured enough yet. In time, he most likely will as he becomes more like his father, abeit with his own twist to himself.

[ashher]

^ by the word 'change' i meant his basic ideals about peace, and about not giving up. We've been shown how he acquired them, then we've been shown the cases where he was tempted to 'change' from them, deviate from them...and he wouldn't just do that, no matter how impractical and naive it was to cling to them in those cases. Obvious example is sasuke.