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White Silver King
February 03, 2010, 05:51 PM
*hijacks*

Moved these posts from the discussion/predictions thread since they were off-topic over there and this seemed to be hot topic of its own. Please use this thread to discuss Theresa vs. Priscilla :)


Priscilla was weaker than Teresa before her awakening. Maybe even Teresa can't beat awakened Priscilla, but who knows?

Teresa trashed 80%+ Priscilla with only 10%, and while Priscilla at that level wasn't as strong as Awakened Priscilla she must have at least been slightly close so I'm confident Teresa could have killed Awakened Priscilla without awakening. And if Teresa did awaken...well the world has gotta end one day mine as well take out Priscilla on the way.

ikayto
February 03, 2010, 06:27 PM
Teresa trashed 80%+ Priscilla with only 10%, and while Priscilla at that level wasn't as strong as Awakened Priscilla she must have at least been slightly close so I'm confident Teresa could have killed Awakened Priscilla without awakening. And if Teresa did awaken...well the world has gotta end one day mine as well take out Priscilla on the way.

exactly, Teresa was the end all. But I think it's a plot hole that someone that strong could be beheaded so easily. :sad:

White Silver King
February 03, 2010, 06:55 PM
She was focusing on Clare her pseudo daughter and as such she completely lowered her guard. But I do see what you're saying Teresa should have been able to tell if Priscilla blinked because of the MASSIVE amounts of yoki she was radiating.

kaliayev
February 03, 2010, 08:30 PM
Jebus, where is all this Theresa automatically pwns awakened Priscilla talk coming from? Theresa is frakking dead. She didn't have what it took to detect Priscilla's surprise attack or mercilessly destroy any immediate threat. As such, she lost, and she'd have the same detection problem against the fully awakened Priscilla. Meanwhile, Priscilla is still roaming the continent, annihilating the best the organization has come up with in the aftermath of her awakening. Next time you see Theresa kill two abyssal class + beings without breaking a sweat, let me know. Oh wait, you can't, so you have no evidence that Theresa would have stood a chance against the awakened Priscilla.

White Silver King
February 03, 2010, 09:24 PM
Jebus, where is all this Theresa automatically pwns awakened Priscilla talk coming from? Theresa is frakking dead. She didn't have what it took to detect Priscilla's surprise attack or mercilessly destroy any immediate threat. As such, she lost, and she'd have the same detection problem against the fully awakened Priscilla. Meanwhile, Priscilla is still roaming the continent, annihilating the best the organization has come up with in the aftermath of her awakening. Next time you see Theresa kill two abyssal class + beings without breaking a sweat, let me know. Oh wait, you can't, so you have no evidence that Theresa would have stood a chance against the awakened Priscilla.

Testy aren't we? It's just speculation dude chill out. And actually we have seen her kill an Abyssal class person without breaking a sweat. And the only reason she was killed is because she let her guard down, she had what it took to sense the attack she just didn't utilize it because she got soft an as such she just assumed everyone else had too, which happens to everyone real-life or not when they go through such a change.

HegemonKhan
February 04, 2010, 01:19 AM
since there's no Teresa vs Priscilla thread on the first page of the forum, I guess I'll post this here as others have just posted here about Teresa vs priscilla, which i'm posting an addition for people for consider, which I just recently discovered myself. I've decided it would be worse to necro an old thread, if there even is a Teresa vs Priscilla thread. I only looked at the first page for the thread, which is why I don't know if there's such a thread or not. Regardless, as I said, I feel it is less etiquete to necro an old thread, then to add my own post about Teresa vs Priscilla, which others have already jsut done on this thread, ch 100 discussion, and which i'm responding.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Goral, you might be interested in this, but maybe you also already noticed this.

I went back to look over the Teresa vs Priscilla chapters again... and noticed something i have never noticed or seen anyone comment about as of yet.


the manga actually states/shows Teresa's method of progression in how she battles opponents.

this is what i mean by method of progression:


1. Teresa uses JUST/ONLY her Faint Smile, as that is usually all she needs. It is perfect for normal yomas (the various ones we see her kill), Claymores (Irene, Sophia, and Noel), and an Awakened (Rosemary).

if, Teresa is unable to merely/just/only use her Faint Smile, like against Priscilla (whom I theorize has actually NEVER used yoki before as she's been so powerful like but not equal to Teresa, hence Teresa has nothing, no yoki, to use her Faint Smile on), then....

2. Teresa uses her superiority in combat/physical ability. Priscilla gets PWNED by Teresa's superiority in combat/physical ability.

then all 4 Claymores (Irene, Sophia, Noel, and Priscilla) take on Teresa together at the same time. Priscilla has now released and is using yoki, along with the rest of them.

3. Teresa can now go back to merely/just/only using her Faint Smile. Teresa easily PWNS ALL OF THEM, since they are all using/releasing yoki now.

Priscilla releases her yoki to 70-79%, which is "so powerful" (or rather powerful enough), that Teresa is unable to use her Faint Smile WHILE AT 0% YOKI RELEASE.

Teresa probably gets cut (across her forehead) for the first time in her life, BY A SURPRISE wrapping of the arm around her (Priscilla's) head using her yoma power of arm extension, detouring around what would normally be a debilating recoil/recovery, to immediately strike again at Teresa, which manages to get the mentioned cut on Teresa's forehead.

4. Teresa merely/just/only releases 10% yoki. Teresa is once again able to use her Faint Smile. Priscilla never lays a "finger" on Teresa again. 10% Teresa PWNS 70-79% Priscilla, despite Priscilla's yoma power of arm extension.

Priscilla releases/uses more yoki, pushing her past her limit (80% yoki) and her Awakening process starts to begin, unrecognized by her (Priscilla) as I theorize that she has NEVER even used yoki before, let alone know about its dangers (Awakening) as 80% is neared or even breached, which Priscilla has just done.

80% or more Priscilla is too powerful for 10% Teresa, as we see Teresa barely able to parry her strike, grimacing with effort.

(maybe, someone who is good with math, can use this to figure out exactly how much more powerful Priscilla got from going from 70-79% to 80% or more, then compare this with Teresa's power, to find out how much more powerful Awakening actually makes the individual. Then they could find out just how powerful Teresa would be Awakened at 80% or more yoki)

5. Teresa foolishly doesn't raise her yoki beyond 10% even though 80% or more Priscilla just displayed greater power, due to Teresa's softness and seeing Priscilla's muscles bulk up ripping her clothes from her Awakening process, dropping her sword, and begging to be executed so that she can die as a human.

6. Priscilla pick up her sword, and slices off Teresa's hands and then her head, killing Teresa.

We don't know if this is merely because Teresa's caution/wariness/focus/guard was down, or if 80% or more Priscilla was simply too fast/quick for 10% (or 0% in the anime, since we see Teresa's eyes going back to silver) Teresa to react/respond to.

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brief summary:

first option/method to deal with opponents

1. Faint Smile. Only NON-using/releasing yoki Claymore Priscilla required/caused Teresa to move onto her next (#2) option/method, since there was no yoki released to use her Faint Smile on.
2. superior combat/physical abilities. This was soundly enough to defeat amature and inferior Claymore Priscilla.
3. 10% yoki release. Goes back to using Faint Smile again. This was ONLY needed when Claymore Priscilla raised her yoki to 70-79%.
4. more then 10% yoki release. Teresa failed to do this against 80% or more yoki releasing Priscilla, which was needed to be done, as 80% or more yoki Priscilla was too powerful for Teresa at only 10% yoki.

last option/method to deal with opponents

Brief Conclusion:

Method/option #1 (Faint Smile) has ALWAYS been all that Teresa ever needed against all her opponents. Be they normal yomas, Claymores, or even an Awakened former rank 1 Claymore (which IS what Isley, Riful, and Luciela are. So Rosemary would have been an Abyssal One as well, albeit a very brief one).

Priscilla's complete lack of yoki release/use was the FIRST time Teresa ever HAD TO move onto her option/method #2 (her superior combat/physical abilities).

Priscilla was then powerful enough at 70-79% yoki, to force Teresa to move onto her "last" option/method #3 of ONLY 10% yoki release, lol.

Lastly, for the first time ever, Teresa had an opponent, which 10% yoki release wasn't enough to obliterate her opponent, an 80% or more yoma releasing and about to Awaken Priscilla. Unfortunately, we never get to see Teresa release more yoki, going beyond her 10% yoki release "last limit" (lol), as she doesn't release more yoki and ends up getting decapitated.

ikayto
February 04, 2010, 04:38 AM
i sure did open a can of warms with that Teresa comment ahah.

but I stand by my statement, Priscilla was small fry compared to Org. #1 Teresa.

kaliayev
February 04, 2010, 03:37 PM
Testy aren't we? It's just speculation dude chill out. And actually we have seen her kill an Abyssal class person without breaking a sweat. And the only reason she was killed is because she let her guard down, she had what it took to sense the attack she just didn't utilize it because she got soft an as such she just assumed everyone else had too, which happens to everyone real-life or not when they go through such a change.

Nope, just tired of the routinely resurfacing arguments that a character who died less than 1/4 of the way through the manga gets to be classified as the pinnacle of the warriors in said manga, especially now that we've seen Priscilla overwhelm every major threat, except the one she has yet to encounter, of the current generation.

There are two reasons to believe Rosemary was not an abyssal class being:

1) Her status as the former number one does not automatically make her abyssal class. Think about all the generations of claymores that have likely existed. The idea of there being only three abyssal ones if every number one has the potential to be abyssal class beings is absurd. While Rosemary may be near Rigardo in terms of capabilities, that doesn't make her a true number one. The rank of number one only means that the described warrior is the best of her generation. The number one is only as good as her sample, especially after possible purges (Raphaela encountered Therese shortly after the Luciela incident. She would go on to replace the individual who became number one in the aftermath of the Luciela incident. Guess who was number one before Theresa). Now that Alicia and Beth are gone, Audrey is the de facto number one. Do you think that she is abyssal class? Had Isley never existed Rigardo would have been the number one of his generation. Does that magically make Rigardo abyssal class? While Raphaela was the only abyssal class claymore around when the org was training Alicia and Beth, she was ranked number five. Being number one is relative, and only true number ones deserve to be classified as abyssal class.

2) The organization's countermeasures. We know that Priscilla was being groomed to surpass and eventually kill Theresa. Even before the incident with the bandits, the org saw Theresa as problematic and wanted her eliminated ASAP (same with the warriors of Pieta and Galatea). This is both emblematic of her status as a true number one and her personality. If the org considered Rosemary a true number one, they would not have allowed her to go gallivanting around as number two. The risk of her becoming disillusioned with the org or eventually awakening would have been too strong (we've seen the shortcomings of the black cards a number of times). Instead of having Rosemary yield the rank without a fight, the org would have used a ranking-related duel against Theresa as a pretense to kill Rosemary. However, this didn't happen because the org didn't fear that Rosemary was a true number one.

This certainly doesn't mean that Theresa couldn't take on an abyssal class being, but I'm pretty sure that I told you to give me an example of her severely outclassing two, allied abyssal class beings.



Now then, I enjoy and partially accept, even if I still think Priscilla is now boss, Goral's argument because he can provide a strong defense of his speculation. He raises a number of valid points. Overall, I have to return to the immediacy issue. Theresa died in chapter 23. She was an incredible warrior. However, regardless of the plot, there's not much point in continuing to 100+ chapters if the strongest fighter you can imagine died early on. There would simply be a level of apathy on Yagi's part when coming up with new heroes and villains. If you ask me, the author's need to outdo himself, and Theresa, in recent chapters is what has definitively placed Priscilla beyond every character.

In regards to Theresa, my main problem with your points is that you are still using the fight with the non-awakened Priscilla as evidence of Theresa's automatic superiority over the awakened Priscilla. This simply isn't logical. Whatever physical shortcomings, relative to Theresa, Priscilla may have had as a claymore no longer matter as she transcended them by awakening.


Volumes 4 and 5 clearly show that Teresa had much higher factor by which her power increased than Priscilla. Her base strength was also much higher so Priscilla could have been stronger only if between 80%-100% she had exponential growth and Teresa only logarithmic or similar. I think it would be ridiculous although it's manga so anything is possible. If we went however the path "the simplest answer is usually the correct answer" I would be right. And since we know that awakening only increases ones power I'm definitely right. Most people that think Priscilla would defeat Teresa are forgetting that Teresa would also increase her strength many times more once she released her youki.

So? We've seen that she could defeat Priscilla easily without using her youki detection, she lost because she went back to 0% youki release and wasn't fast enough but notice that at 10% she was faster and stronger than Priscilla at 80%.
Notice that I'm not writing Teresa at 10-30% or Priscilla at 70-80% and the reasons for this are these:
Firstly, it would be strange (not unbelievable but strange) that claymores would be able to control their power with only 1% margin of error. And who's to say that the demon power increases in regular and small changes by an increment of 1%. Maybe it's 10%, or 20%?
Secondly, it would be strange if the symptom (golden eyes or distorted face) would be conveniently in these boundaries to 1% (i.e. at 29.9% the face would still be undistorted but at 30.0% distortions would magically appear). I for one would think that if Teresa was getting close to 30% we would see some indications of possible face distortion. The fact was however Teresa showed no signs of change.
As for Priscilla, she was gradually increasing more and more youki, 80% was a point of no return and we know that during the fight she was beyond that point.

Hoho, yes, Theresa's power increase after releasing was easily the best in claymore history. However, Priscilla's last line in this chapter reminded me of something: Theresa never went beyond 10%. One could argue that this is simply because it was never necessary for her to do so. If she fought someone who required 30%, she would use 30%. However, during her fight with Rosemary, she stated that she would forget how to release to 10% if she didn't routinely do so. For her, youki release is on a different plane of choice. That is, most claymores will release as much as possible, and typically beyond, to win a fight. This is usually a matter of passion/desperation. Theresa's choice to release is purely rational. She will not release to 10% until the very last moment she has to, provided she has the foresight to do so. If she is caught incredibly off guard, like she was during Prisiclla's surprise attack, releasing wouldn't be an option for her as, in her case, it isn't a simple defense mechanism.

Back to the matter at hand, I do not think that, though she had incredible reserves of youki, Theresa could release to 30% or beyond. Based on her statement to Rosemary and the fact that she has only ever released to 10% over the course of the manga, 10% is her likely "limit." If she ever fought anyone who could overwhelm her at 10%, which is likely the case with the awakened Priscilla, Theresa would lose simply because she wouldn't know how to release 30% or beyond. Theresa's immense youki reserve becomes superfluous if she can only access a minor portion of it.

@Hegemon
You provide a good summary of the events and some interesting insights. However, based on what I've said above, I think you could have gone a little further with the conclusion.

p.s. Heh, guess my first sentence is superfluous now that a thread has been created.

HegemonKhan
February 04, 2010, 07:10 PM
just because a character dies, doesn't mean they were inferior (less powerful).


if micheal jordan died while a kid, does that mean he wasn't the greatest (or one of the greatest) basketball player(s) ever?

i'll answer my own question: NO

dying doesn't erase one's current abliity/prowess/superiority/power or their future/"potential" of it had they not died.

and the teresa vs priscilla debate is NOT about who lived ("won") and died ("lost").

we clearly know that Teresa died and Priscilla lived. duh.


what the teresa vs priscilla debate is about, is:

whom is superior (more powerful).
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it's been made quite evident over and over by many people that Teresa is superior to Priscilla. But, the debate does rage on, as the other side still believes Priscilla is superior. the never ending debate, laughs. it comes up with nearly every new chapter release.


Awakened Priscilla is indeed incredibly powerful. current top being in Claymore world. this is undisputed, with possible exceptions of the Destroyer and maybe Clare.


but, let's not forget that Teresa at 10% yoki bested 70-79% yoki Claymore priscilla.

however, when priscilla hit 80% or more yoki, Teresa at 10% was too weak.


however, in looking at the yoki % amounts, we can affirm 2 things, defirm another thing, and debate about yet another thing.


the affirmations:

1. 100% yoki Awakened Teresa would annihilate 100% yoki Awakened Priscilla with total ease.
2. 10% yoki (Claymore) Teresa can NOT "win" (defeat/beat) against 80-100% yoki and Awakened priscilla

the defirmation:

Awakened 100% yoki Priscilla couldn't be beaten by teresa.

the debate:

can an under 80% yoki (NON-awakened or Claymore) Teresa beat a 80-100% yoki Awakened Priscilla or not?

my opinion, based on the discrepency of the yoki levels of 10% teresa and 70-79% priscilla, tells me clearly that teresa would easily be able to defeat 80-100% yoki priscilla without even getting near 80% yoki of her own,

AND on the fact that 0% Teresa had no trouble dealing already with an Awakened former rank 1 Claymore, Rosemary. This shows me, that Claymore Teresa can even deal with the extra power and abilities that an awakened gets.

Albiet, clearly 80% or more CLaymore-Awakened Priscilla (she's in this weird transitional period of about to awaken, but it hasn't started just yet), requiring Teresa to use more then 10% yoki, is FAR more powerful then awakened Rosemary, whom Teresa could have defeated with NO yoki release. she only released 10% against rosemary for "practice" and/or "fun", because this was one of the very few times she could, due to worrying about the Organization's watchful eye and wanting to keep her GODLY power a secret from them.

Yes, based on these two things, I feel Claymore Teresa well before she even gets near 80% yoki, can easily beat not only an 80-100% yoki Priscilla, but also all the extra power and abilities that come from being awakened that Priscilla has. Yes, Awakened Priscilla has her regenerative abilities, but Teresa would just take her head off, which usually results in death, as seen/mentioned over and over again in the Claymore manga. For examples: Ophelia after having her neck twisted told the female AB that it should have decapitated her. The AFs/AEs have instantaneous regeneration, yet when their heads are destroyed, they die.

using simplistic math, if anyone is interested:

10% teresa > ~80% priscilla (actually it's 70-79%, but using 80 to make it easy)

80/10=8
70/10=7

teresa is between 7 and 8 times MORE powerful then Priscilla

so, now we find out how much yoki teresa would need against 100% yoki priscilla

100/7= 14.3
100/8= 12.5

Teresa would only need to have 13% or 15% yoki released (+3% or +5% more then her 10% yoki release) to be slightly more powerful then Priscilla at 100% yoki. obviously being slightly more powerful, isn't good enough to actually win or defeat/beat another. you have to be a good bit, more powerful, than less of a % point greater, lol. So Teresa would actually ahve to be like at least 20% yoki released to actually defeat/beat 100% yoki released Priscilla.

now let's add some more % points as Priscilla is awakened, because awakened greatly enhances the being's power and they get extra abilities. HOWEVER, i doubt it would mean Teresa needs her yoki to be anywhere near 80% to deal with Awakened Priscilla. Maybe 50% at the very max. though more likely 30% as the max.

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about what makes one an Abyssal One (AO):

What we know about Abyssal Ones:

1. they are merely awakened rank 1 Claymores, as opposed to awakened rank 2-47 Claymores, which are called Awakened Beings (ABs).

2. only 3 officially have been named as AOs. Isley, Riful, and Luciela.

3. Rubel tells Rafaela, that Awakened Luciela will be labeled as the 3rd AO, to make up the 3 AOs, and the "4th" being the Organization with their rank 1 Claymore (which the next one will be Rosemary) as the 4 (or 5) factions/"super powers"/"kingdoms" on the Island. Isley in the north. Riful in the west. the Organization in the east. (unrecognized) the humans ("neutral") in the center. And now, with Luciela in the south. This makes a nice balance and stalemate among the 4 (or 5) factions on the island. Rubel tells Rafaela, that the AOs, especially Luciela, is NOT to be engaged with at this point.

Based on this, I feel Abyssal Ones truly are merely Awakened rank 1 Claymores.

*there's many good reasons/explanations why the Organization hasn't offically named more AOs, which if requested I can provide.

so this brings us to:

the rank 1 Claymores:

(in power, as ranks don't mean that much, which i can explain as well if requested to):

Isley, Riful, Luciela, Rafaela, Rosemary, Teresa, Priscilla, Alicia, Beth, and Miata.

the awakened rank 1 CLaymores:

Isley, Riful, Luciela, Rafaela, Rosemary, Priscilla, Alicia, and Beth

the only rank 1 Claymores, whom haven't awakened:

Teresa and Miata

(i have a personal theory that Teresa actually did awaken and de-awaken, keeping her human mind. Becoming the true/full potential/"endgame" Half Awaken, but won't go into it within this post. this does nicely help explain why/how Teresa was the most powerful of all)

personally, I call all the Awakened rank 1 Claymores as AOs. Of course these AOs differ in how powerful they are, just as they differed in power as Claymores. I mean, look at rank 1 Teresa and rank 1 Priscilla vs all the other rank 1's, Isley, Riful, Luciela, Rosemary, Alicia, and Beth. Clearly there's a big difference in power among these rank 1's as Claymores and/or as Awakeneds.

but, yes, OFFICIALLY, there's only the "unholy 3" AOs: Isley, Riful, and Luciela.

kaliayev
February 04, 2010, 09:19 PM
if micheal jordan died while a kid, does that mean he wasn't the greatest (or one of the greatest) basketball player(s) ever?

i'll answer my own question: NO

Eh? By that logic, Michael Jordan isn't the greatest basketball player ever as, throughout history, there have been plenty of people who have had a greater level of potential, relative to basketball, that have pursued other paths in life. Gasp, a claymore will arise in 250 years that will dwarf Priscilla and Theresa. Now then, if I went back in time and shot Michael Jordan in the legs, he could not become a professional basketball player. He could still become a fantastic handicapped basketball player, but that's another issue. Without the opportunity to access a significant level of his full potential, Michael Jordan would not matter in the history of basketball.

Now, to make that relevant, let's say that Raphaela, Isley, Luciela, and Riful had merged. Surely the merged creature resulting from four abyssal class beings would dwarf Theresa or Priscilla. The ultimate potential of what can occur doesn't really matter here, as one could always come up with a scenario that results in a greater being than the current "boss." Instead, we, and the author, have to rely on the reasonable level of access, which the characters routinely display, to what is possible in order to evaluate them.

Now then, I'm sure we can agree that Theresa and Priscilla have virtually limitless levels of youki circulating in their bodies. At the time Priscilla fought Theresa, the former could not access this power in a meaningful way, even at 80% release. That is why Teresa overwhelmed Priscilla in their fight (before Priscilla went berserk, Irena assured Priscilla that their initial bout was the beginning, not the end. As claymores, they could begin to match one another over time. However, as has been repeatedly pointed out to me by some of Theresa's proponents, that is a moot point. They fought when they fought, and Priscilla was outclassed at the time). Now, as an awakened being, Priscilla has unlimited access to her limitless youki. Teresa, as a claymore, would be the one lagging behind, if she were alive (again, moot point).

In your post, you fail to address what I brought up in my post: Theresa's ultimate level of access to her limitless youki. Because she has never been forced to fight at 30% or more, she doesn't know how. For Theresa to even reach 30%, she would have undergo a similar level of emotional stress that Clare did when the latter awakened her limbs in Pieta. As a detached, rational warrior, Theresa could never succumb to surges of youki release. Against an opponent of a certain level, Theresa would die before this requisite emotional strain could occur. Her literal limit, regardless of her potential, was 10% of her youki. Again, we can agree that Priscilla and Theresa both have limitless youki. However, what caused Priscilla to lose her initial fight with Theresa is the exact same thing that would cause Theresa to lose against the awakened Priscilla: not potential itself, but level of access to that potential.




I'm sure that Priscilla and Theresa would be evenly matched if they were both awakened beings. Each of their full youki potentials was immeasurable. However, having both characters fight one another at their full potential is just a masturbatory exercise of one's imagination. Yagi specifically chose to avoid such a scenario by having Priscilla fight Theresa before the former was ready and having Priscilla awaken only after Theresa was already dead. As many like to repeatedly point out, this is not DBZ, it is not Bleach, etc.


3. Rubel tells Rafaela, that Awakened Luciela will be labeled as the 3rd AO, to make up the 3 AOs, and the "4th" being the Organization with their rank 1 Claymore (which the next one will be Rosemary) as the 4 (or 5) factions/"super powers"/"kingdoms" on the Island. Isley in the north. Riful in the west. the Organization in the east. (unrecognized) the humans ("neutral") in the center. And now, with Luciela in the south. This makes a nice balance and stalemate among the 4 (or 5) factions on the island. Rubel tells Rafaela, that the AOs, especially Luciela, is NOT to be engaged with at this point.

What are you talking about? When Rubel and Raphaela talked (http://www.onemanga.com/Claymore/64/10/), the org had no reliable claymores that could challenge an abyssal one (even after Raphaela rejoined the ranks, the org wanted to avoid using Raphaela against the abyssal ones for as long as possible) and he made no mention of any individuals being groomed to be/were promoted to number one, or even the rank itself. While the territories were essentially divided into four, the east/org was worried about "unnecessary conflicts." That's why they would choose their new role as observers. They would not adopt a different role until Isley invaded the south and the soul link was completed, even if Theresa, Priscilla, and Raphaela were abyssal class.


the rank 1 Claymores:

(in power, as ranks don't mean that much, which i can explain as well if requested to):

Isley, Riful, Luciela, Rafaela, Rosemary, Teresa, Priscilla, Alicia, Beth, and Miata.

The power levels of Rosemary and Miata have not been properly tested. This list is also missing a large number of claymores, both from those we have heard of and those we haven't, who could be considered abyssal class.



Again, Rosemary was not, and most likely cannot be, verified as abyssal class, and again, you are not addressing my points. If you can create a proof that Rosemary was a abyssal class, despite what I argued above, then do so. Relying on arbitrary ranks and then arbitrarily inserting an individual into a certain classification of claymores/abs is not a proof.

HegemonKhan
February 04, 2010, 09:44 PM
yikes... a lot to try to respond to... sighs... debates like this get really long really quickly... but i got to try to defend/explain myself now... sighs...

1. alright, my analogy/example of using that train of thought with micheal jordan wasn't a very good choice, as you greatly pointed out. but, its point (MJ is still MJ, one of the greatest basketball players ever, this can't be changed or denied) is still valid.

so, instead of a poor analogy, i'll jsut tell what my point is, lol.... much easier then trying to come up with an analogy that doesn't have a trillion holes and issues with it lol.

my point i was trying to make is that teresa is teresa, regardless of her allowing an opening for priscilla to get a cheap undeserved kill, a FAR CRY from beating teresa by ability/power/superiority/dominance/supremacy/prowesss/performence, teresa is the greatest/most powerful being ever in the Claymore world, with the possibility of ONLY being surpassed by the protagonist, Clare.

(Though at this moment in chapter 100 with priscilla pwning clare, she seems weak all over again, and far away from reaching teresa's power/supremacy. which is funny, because right until priscilla battled her, Clare was quite bad-bottom. cruelly pwning Agatha, and then defeated the hellcats, and posititioning Deneve and Helen so that they aren't hit by the huge projectiles)

10% Teresa over-powered 70-79% Priscilla. Teresa IS more powerful then Priscilla by 7 or 8 times, and considering we are talking about Priscilla... no one can even imagine something being 7 or 8 times more powerful then chapter 100 awakened priscilla, and yet, Teresa was that something. Maybe it is a very good thing we never seen teresa beyond 10% yoki, laughs.

Priscilla either was too fast/quick at 80% yoki or more while teresa remained at 10% yoki foolishly not raising it, or Teresa simply wasn't paying attention/cautious/wary/focused/on guard, and got decapitated. neither of these, have anything to do with the power/superiority of Teresa vs Priscilla.

heck, if chuck liddel or whatever UFC champion had their guard down and wasn't paying attention, i could even knock them out! obviously, i'm not better or more powerful then him or whomever, just as priscilla is not better or more powerful then Teresa.


since you brought up logic.....

if Teresa is 7 or 8 times more powerful then priscilla, then teresa remains 7 or 8 times more powerful then priscilla whatever her yoki amount is. priscilla at 100% yoki doesn't magically erase teresa's being 7 or 8 times more powerful then her like you seem to want in order to make your view correct. 100% yoki teresa will still be 7 or 8 times more powerful then 100% priscilla, just as 10% yoki teresa was powerful then 70% or ~80% (actually 70-79%) yoki priscilla, which is where the 7 or 8 times greater in power then priscilla comes from. And surely, you aren't denouncing that 10% teresa knocked 70-79% Priscilla on her bottom, as this is right in the manga picture and dialogue itself.



2. Teresa sure sounds like she knows about yoki levels beyond 10% and awakening quite intimately. While Teresa having awakened and retained her human mind, might be a bit extreme, i still believe in it as a possibility of a personaly theory of mine. But, you saying that teresa has never gone over 10% doesn't match up with how specifically teresa is expertly/authoratively lecturing amature or "rookie" priscilla bout the yoki plateaus and awakening....

and if you want to point out that Teresa had never gone past 10% and thus can't release more yoki.... SO TOO FOR PRISCILLA. Priscilla NEVER released any yoki, so by your train of thought/reasoning, it would be impossible for Priscilla as well to use yoki. Yet, Priscilla does uses yoki, a lot of yoki, at least 80% yoki. How could she have done this when she had never used yoki before? Well, sorry to say, but soo too can Teresa use more yoki then just 10%, just as priscilla was able to. Teresa just never got around to raising her yoki beyond 10% due to a number of irrelevant interfering factors which resulted in Teresa getting beheaded.

3. Rubel essential said some of that, some of it i added in merely from what happens later in the manga, and some of my own additions/commentary as well.

4. The Organization is for the most part QUITE GOOD AT RANKING THE CLAYMORES. For the most part their rankings represent their power. ranked 1 claymores ARE #1 in power. rank 4 ophelia WAS weaker to rank 2 Irene and probably rank 3 Galatea as well. Deneve (rank 15 or 19) and Helen (rank 22) are weaker then rank 6 Miria. So rank 1 Rosemary would "equal" rank 1 Isley, Riful, Luciela, Alicia, and Beth to name a few. i am using quotation marks, because they do have a wide range of power, but we really only see that in Teresa+Priscilla vs the rest of the rank 1's and possibly Isley vs Riful+Luciela. Alicia vs Riful was pretty equal. so, rosemary must be also ~ equal, excluding the 3 (Teresa, Priscilla, and ~Isley) whom are a bit (isley) or a lot lot lot (Teresa and priscilla) more powerful then the rest of the rank 1's.

Miria confirms this partially. according to miria, the difference between rank 1-6 is exponential. rank 5 is vastly more powerful then her at rank 6. rank 4 is vastly more powerful then rank 5. rank 3 is vastly more powerful than rank 4. etc etc. Whereas ranks 6-9, ~10-19, ~20-30, ~30-47 are nearly equal or not much difference in power level to each other within their grouping. There's not too much difference between rank 6 miria and rank 8 flora or rank 9 jean. but between rank 6 and a normal rank 5 (Rafaela is not a normal rank 5, just as clare is not a normal rank 47), is a vast difference in power. Rank 5 is on a totally different level of power vs a rank 6. rank 4 is on a vastly different level of power then rank 5. etc etc

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if i fought against chuck liddel, and he kicked my bottom 3-5 times out of 3-5 times, he is better/more powerful/superior to me without question.

same with Teresa and priscilla. Teresa kicked priscilla's bottom ~3-5 times out of ~3-5 times, Teresa is superior/more pwoerful/better then priscilla without question.... i wish... lol....

kaliayev
February 05, 2010, 12:24 AM
1. my point i was trying to make is that teresa is teresa, regardless of her allowing an opening for priscilla to get a cheap undeserved kill, a FAR CRY from beating teresa by ability/power/superiority/dominance/supremacy/prowesss/performence, teresa is the greatest/most powerful being ever in the Claymore world, with the possibility of ONLY being surpassed by the protagonist, Clare.

10% Teresa over-powered 70-79% Priscilla. Teresa IS more powerful then Priscilla by 7 or 8 times, and considering we are talking about Priscilla... no one can even imagine something being 7 or 8 times more powerful then chapter 100 awakened priscilla, and yet, Teresa was that something. Maybe it is a very good thing we never seen teresa beyond 10% yoki, laughs.

Priscilla either was too fast/quick at 80% yoki or more while teresa remained at 10% yoki foolishly not raising it, or Teresa simply wasn't paying attention/cautious/wary/focused/on guard, and got decapitated. neither of these, have anything to do with the power/superiority of Teresa vs Priscilla.

heck, if chuck liddel or whatever UFC champion had their guard down and wasn't paying attention, i could even knock them out! obviously, i'm not better or more powerful then him or whomever, just as priscilla is not better or more powerful then Teresa.


since you brought up logic.....

if Teresa is 7 or 8 times more powerful then priscilla, then teresa remains 7 or 8 times more powerful then priscilla whatever her yoki amount is. priscilla at 100% yoki doesn't magically erase teresa's being 7 or 8 times more powerful then her like you seem to want in order to make your view correct. 100% yoki teresa will still be 7 or 8 times more powerful then 100% priscilla, just as 10% yoki teresa was powerful then 70% or ~80% (actually 70-79%) yoki priscilla, which is where the 7 or 8 times greater in power then priscilla comes from. And surely, you aren't denouncing that 10% teresa knocked 70-79% Priscilla on her bottom, as this is right in the manga picture and dialogue itself.

1. Sigh, again you are relying too heavily on the outcome of that single battle and an odd bias in terms of potential. Priscilla's "strength" at the time of her initial fight with Theresa was not indicative of the former's potential (more on that later). Her power after awakening was indicative of her ultimate potential as a claymore. I will not argue over which one had the greater potential. There is simply not enough evidence to conclude that either one had more potential than the other. Instead, we are arguing over who is the strongest/most powerful. When they fought, they were not fighting on the terms of their potential. When the two initially fought, Theresa was clearly the stronger warrior. There is nothing to contest in that statement. Now, Priscilla, as an awakened being, has nigh complete access to her potential, while Theresa, thanks in large part to her death, is in stasis. We have to use Theresa's status at the time of her death to determine who is the strongest character (as you say, Theresa is Theresa). At the time of her death, Theresa had unlimited youki, but she could only release to 10%. Under these terms, Theresa is weaker than Priscilla.

In the history of claymores, Theresa clearly experiences the greatest increase in power during her release. Using that as the basis for every argument you make in favor of Theresa's superiority is silly. It is highly likely that her 10% release is fairly close to a 10% effort from whatever her awakened form would have turned out to be. That is, because her release is so powerful, there is not as much of a disconnect between 10% of her potential and 10% of her release. I imagine a similar "limitation" applies to Galatea, who had the greatest release of her generation. While Priscilla had released to 80% in her fight against Theresa, in retrospect, that 80% was nowhere near a 5% effort from the awakened Priscilla that is roaming around the western territory. If her 30% release as a claymore was anywhere near a 10% effort from her awakened form, she would have overwhelmed Theresa's 10% release. Priscilla simply did not know what she was doing when she fought Theresa and the strength of her release as a claymore has little to no bearing on her strength as an awakened being or how Theresa's 10% release would stack up against the awakened Priscilla.


2. Teresa sure sounds like she knows about yoki levels beyond 10% and awakening quite intimately. While Teresa having awakened and retained her human mind, might be a bit extreme, i still believe in it as a possibility of a personaly theory of mine. But, you saying that teresa has never gone over 10% doesn't match up with how specifically teresa is expertly/authoratively lecturing amature or "rookie" priscilla bout the yoki plateaus and awakening....

and if you want to point out that Teresa had never gone past 10% and thus can't release more yoki.... SO TOO FOR PRISCILLA. Priscilla NEVER released any yoki, so by your train of thought/reasoning, it would be impossible for Priscilla as well to use yoki. Yet, Priscilla does uses yoki, a lot of yoki, at least 80% yoki. How could she have done this when she had never used yoki before? Well, sorry to say, but soo too can Teresa use more yoki then just 10%, just as priscilla was able to. Teresa just never got around to raising her yoki beyond 10% due to a number of irrelevant interfering factors which resulted in Teresa getting beheaded.

2. Every claymore knows the physical alterations that accompany the varying levels of release. One need have no experience at releasing to recognize what level of release one's opponent is at and when one has reached the "point of no return" (I won't argue with the idea of Theresa being a partially awakened being. I myself proposed that possibility a long time ago. I wasn't taken seriously).

Before she went berserk, Priscilla had only released between 10% and 30%. This was her personal limit when ranks 2-5 were fighting as a group. When Priscilla released beyond 10-30% to 80%/awakened, she was overcome with passion. Under these circumstances, one's "personal limits" vanish. Quite honestly, this becoming berserk is not something we could expect from Theresa. The limit of her hatred was shown when she slaughtered the bandits. Of course, we don't know what level of release Theresa ultimately used when clearing the bandits (we saw her release 10%, kill the leader, and then saw all the bandits running for their lives. The manga then cut to her at 0% and surrounded by bloodied corpses). While she may have only released to 10%, Theresa had reached a point of passion that would have allowed her to transcend 10%. Given what we know about Theresa's personality, this could only be repeated if someone were threatening Clare. However, Clare was never in any real danger during Priscilla's furious attack against Theresa. Because of this fact, the necessary conditions, for Theresa to transcend her personal limit, were not satisfied. To this date, Priscilla has not tried to kill Clare.


4. The Organization is for the most part QUITE GOOD AT RANKING THE CLAYMORES. For the most part their rankings represent their power. ranked 1 claymores ARE #1 in power. rank 4 ophelia WAS weaker to rank 2 Irene and probably rank 3 Galatea as well. Deneve (rank 15 or 19) and Helen (rank 22) are weaker then rank 6 Miria. So rank 1 Rosemary would "equal" rank 1 Isley, Riful, Luciela, Alicia, and Beth to name a few. i am using quotation marks, because they do have a wide range of power, but we really only see that in Teresa+Priscilla vs the rest of the rank 1's and possibly Isley vs Riful+Luciela. Alicia vs Riful was pretty equal. so, rosemary must be also ~ equal, excluding the 3 (Teresa, Priscilla, and ~Isley) whom are a bit (isley) or a lot lot lot (Teresa and priscilla) more powerful then the rest of the rank 1's.

Miria confirms this partially. according to miria, the difference between rank 1-6 is exponential. rank 5 is vastly more powerful then her at rank 6. rank 4 is vastly more powerful then rank 5. rank 3 is vastly more powerful than rank 4. etc etc. Whereas ranks 6-9, ~10-19, ~20-30, ~30-47 are nearly equal or not much difference in power level to each other within their grouping. There's not too much difference between rank 6 miria and rank 8 flora or rank 9 jean. but between rank 6 and a normal rank 5 (Rafaela is not a normal rank 5, just as clare is not a normal rank 47), is a vast difference in power. Rank 5 is on a totally different level of power vs a rank 6. rank 4 is on a vastly different level of power then rank 5. etc etc

4. I'm sure Goral would happily counter this point. He criticized me when I relied on the data book. The rankings would have the same weakness: the org's fairly limited knowledge. The ranks are both somewhat reliable and somewhat flawed. Clare, who was ranked 47, clearly had the power of a single digit. Raphaela was number five, but was stronger than Alicia and Beth were numbers one and two for most of the time in which they were all claymores. A rank one from one generation does not equal a rank one from another generation. Luciela, Riful, and Isley were considered "true number ones" or abyssal class by the organization. Even so, Theresa and Priscilla, ranks one and two of their respective generation, were beyond the "true number ones" or abyssal class claymores (Alicia and Beth were also beyond abyssal class). As the ranks are somewhat arbitrary, using them to determine whether or not a given claymore is abyssal class is unsound.



if i fought against chuck liddel, and he kicked my bottom 3-5 times out of 3-5 times, he is better/more powerful/superior to me without question.

same with Teresa and priscilla. Teresa kicked priscilla's bottom ~3-5 times out of ~3-5 times, Teresa is superior/more pwoerful/better then priscilla without question.... i wish... lol....

You should have stayed away from the analogies. Based on a brief look at his wiki, Chuck Lidell's most recent loss was to Mauricio Rua. At the time that they fought, Rua was a fairly experienced fighter. Do you think that Rua would have stood a chance against Lidell had they fought each other early in the former's career?

p.s. Please don't use the tilde in your posts. My primarily reliance upon it has been for logic, which means I read your tildes as negations, when you are using it in another capacity.

BlackSwimmer
February 05, 2010, 01:48 AM
since clair is stronger then pricilla and is going to kill pricilla, and she is only 25% of teresa, then teresa is stronger then both of them

Goral
February 05, 2010, 02:54 AM
(...)
Back to the matter at hand, I do not think that, though she had incredible reserves of youki, Theresa could release to 30% or beyond. Based on her statement to Rosemary and the fact that she has only ever released to 10% over the course of the manga, 10% is her likely "limit." If she ever fought anyone who could overwhelm her at 10%, which is likely the case with the awakened Priscilla, Theresa would lose simply because she wouldn't know how to release 30% or beyond. Theresa's immense youki reserve becomes superfluous if she can only access a minor portion of it.


So because Teresa said: "I usually don't do this a lot but I feel if I don't at least once in a while... I'll forget how to." and because we've never seen her release more than 10% of youki you're concluding that she can't release more than 30% of youki? That's completely baseless although an interesting thought for discussion. We've never seen a claymore that couldn't awaken, in fact we've seen tons of them that could awaken really easily (with Clare being no exception). That's because the more claymore uses his youma powers the closer he gets to being a youma - that's a fact. Also, the weaker the claymore (i.e. the less youki he has and of worse quality) the faster he reaches the point where he awakens once he releases youki again. Teresa was both strong and "economical" so in her case to awaken because of overuse of youma powers would take a long, long time.

As for the words she said to Rosemary, she only states that she doesn't do this a lot so if anything she would not remember how to do it and it would be a matter of mentality rather than not being able to do it at all (but it would be stupid). You're trying to forcefully find a way for Teresa to be weaker than awakened Priscilla because you can't accept that anyone could be as strong as Teresa seems to be. The second argument you used makes even less sense than the first. Because we've never seen Teresa go over 30% she can't go over 30%, lol. Going by your line of thought we could also say that because we haven't seen Yuma go over her limit she can't awaken either.

Overkill would be utterly stupid in Teresa's case. She would have to use lots of youki and come closer to awakening (and we know that she wanted to spend her days with Clare as a daughter not a piece of meat) and it would be a waste of effort since the outcome of the fight would be the same. For the same reason Priscilla didn't take her awakened form when she was fighting Alicia/Beth/Riful. That would be unnecessary and a waste of energy and since she was very hungry and there weren't much food in vicinity it would be stupid of her to do it. But does anyone say that she can't awaken? Yeah, we've seen her awakened form but it was 7 years ago, maybe she forgot how to change like Teresa? lol
In addition, Teresa's own words indicate that she knows a bit about her limits: "We all learn the limits of our youma power as we fight, releasing it bit by bit. That's beyond a beginner like you." Although I doubt she ever went beyond 50% (since she knew that after she reached that point she would be dangerously close to the point of no return and I don't see her as a psychopath that would do sth so dangerous just to amuse herself).

In case you would like to bring Clare's case into this: don't. Clare's case is completely different because she has partially awakened and different rules apply to her. Besides, it's not that she can't awaken (it's very probable that we will see her awakened form and she will go back to her human form thanks to soul-link), she doesn't want to (subconsciously). Either Teresa's/Rafaela's memories made her aware of the mistake she's making at the moment or her rebellious character refuses to obey the monster insde her. She's fought it many times and always won and now the youma inside her doesn't stand a chance. So unless she completely subjects herself to monster's will she won't awaken.
That's of course only speculation on my part (and the idea about becoming immune to the youma wasn't mine but Cyclone's and Aimless' from animesuki) but the fact remains that Clare is half-awakened (according to Miria already awakened) and Teresa was not. Soon enough we will know whether Clare can't awaken or not and what was the cause of her deawakening.

Last but not least, awakenings are like bankais in Bleach, they're the part of this world and make Claymore more interesting. If any claymore could not awaken that would be against the rules Yagi has established and it would be incoherent. Since we haven't seen any claymore that can't awaken (although Clare couldn't in 100th chapter she could at the beginning of the manga and in Pieta and she could muster a lot more than 30% of youki since she was in queen of blades mode) so saying that Teresa couldn't is like saying that Cynthia/Yuma/Tabitha can't either. Your argument is no argument but a completely baseless speculation.

HegemonKhan
February 05, 2010, 03:22 AM
kaliayev,

hmm...

0. my use of the ~ means/represents: appromately, about, around, roughly, or maybe/partially/somewhat.

1. we have a different take on yoki and power levels. which is the main reason of our differences in this regard, i believe, besides me favoring Teresa and i presume you favoring priscilla?

this is how i've decided to make sense of it:

yoki=merely energy (technically it is yoma/monster energy). ranges from 0-100% for all beings. we humans have/use energy too in real life as well as the humans in Claymore. same thing in range. 0-100%.

yoma power=power (and power level) of a being (with yoma flesh).

so, in keeping this in this very simple form, this "potential or latent" (mainly in regards to priscilla, and her vs teresa debate) stuff that many other people, talk about or use, doesn't mean anything to me. I merely see this potential or latent stuff merely as their potential, their level of ability/power/performance in the future or ultimately. Yes, clearly Priscilla had the 2nd greatest potential or latent abilities (as she has reached them). But, Teresa had the greatest potential or latent abilities, but clearly we never see her reach or use them, as she gets decapitated while having never given us a look at her when using more then 10% of her yoki.

anyways, this my my take on trying to make sense of yoki and power levels for myself. I think that this difference in how we understand yoki and power levels, is one of the main things that leads us to have very different opinions about Teresa vs Priscilla.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

here's a mathematical look at how I understand yoki and power levels in Claymore:

(starting or natural power) x (yoki release) x (Multiplier) = yoma power (their final power level)

*starting or natural power CAN be increased through training/growth. it is not constant. (technically starting or natural power would be: starting or natural power + improvement in power through training/growth)

*I also entertain a theory of my own that ONLY a being with a human mind (Claymore or Half Awaken or human) can improve their power through training/growth. Awakened beings, whom have a yoma mind, such as Rigardo, Isley, and Priscilla can NOT improve their power. They are stuck with the power they had upon their Awakening. Support for this theory: If yoma-minded beings can improve and get more powerful, then Isley being the oldest of all beings (excluding the Organization staff), would be even more godly/powerful then Teresa or Priscilla. Which clearly is NOT the case. This is what makes Half Awakens so special. They got the powers of an awakened and retain their human minds, which allows them to improve through training just like the other Claymore Ghosts, and we have seen ALL the Ghosts both the HAs (Miria, Deneve, Helen, and Clare) and the Claymores (Cynthia, Tabatha, and Yuma) become greatly more powerful from their "Ghost Training".

*Multiplier is the unique ability with yoki that Galatea mentions about and uses against Dauf. Galatea to Dauf: ~"My rate at which my power rises is the greatest of all the Claymores. You'll have to deal with my ugly face for a bit. (translated Claymore manga)." Presumably this multiplier is different for all the Claymores, and Galatea's is the greatest. HOWEVER, there is NO info/mention of the multiplier amounts of other Claymores, nor specifically what it is for Galetea. So it remains pretty ambigious, with all we know is that Galatea has the largest/greatest multiplier.

here's some examples (amounts are entirely made up):

Clarice (assumed as weakest Claymore, an actual rank 47, unlike Clare):

(1) x (10%) x (1) = 10 yoma power

Audrey (rank 3):

(100) x (10%) x (1) = 1,000 yoma power

Galatea (rank 3):

(100) x (10%) x (10) = 10,000 yoma power

Irene (rank 2):

(10,000) x (10%) x (1) = 100,000 yoma power

Alicia (rank 1):

(100,000) x (10%) x (1) = 1,000,000 yoma power

Priscilla ("rank 2", beyond a rank 1):

(1,000,000) x (10%) x (1) = 10,000,000 yoma power

(1,000,000) x (100%) x (1) = 100,000,000 yoma power

Teresa ("rank 1", beyond a rank 1):

(7,000,000) x (10%) x (1) = 70,000,000 yoma power
OR
(8,000,000) x (10%) x (1) = 80,000,000 yoma power

(7,000,000) x (100%) x (1) = 700,000,000 yoma power
OR
(8,000,000) x (100%) x (1) = 800,000,000 yoma power

PB|Ichigo
February 05, 2010, 05:56 AM
Oh please stop these powercharts, this ain't Dragon Ball, although CM is a shounen, too. But these charts are merely speculative, and doesn't really represent anything.

In terms of power I'm actually in favor of Teresa (cause I may be a bit of a Teresa-Fanboy :-)), but it doesn't really matter as Teresa's dead now, if you let the matter of her flesh taken into Clare out of the game. Clare (i.e. a part of her) is the only thing which is left of Teresa, and that Teresa (or some part of her will/legacy/whatever you may call it) is still somewhere inside Clare (as shown before the fight with the male AB), but other than that, Teresa is dead, so any discussion regarding this matter is more or less redundant.

HegemonKhan
February 05, 2010, 06:09 AM
did you read these two lines within my other post which you responded to?

1. "here's a mathematical look at how I understand yoki and power levels in Claymore:" -HK
2. "here's some examples (the amounts are entirely made up):" -HK

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this is not pointless,

Teresa is a LEGEND.

if you take a look at sports fans, they are constantly debating/arguing/comparing the old LEGENDARY/HALL OF FAME players vs the new current generation of sports athletes.

who's better?

Micheal Jordan or Kobe Bryant? (basket ball)

Walter Payton or Jerome bettis? (american football)

Ty Cobbs/Mickey mantle (i'm embarrasing myself here as i can't remember/don't know who was the last home run king) or STEROID CHEATED/FRAUDS Mark Mcguire/Sammy Sosa (yah, you might noticed i'm strongly biased here. having been an "very small scale or unimpressive" athlete most of my life. As a former athlete i can't stand these steriod-using CHEATERS/FRAUDS). (baseball)

Jack Nickolas or Tiger Woods? (golf)

Pale' vs Ronaldo (american soccer/world futbol)

macynire(?) vs pete sampras. (i don't follow Tennis much)

etc...

FANS LOVE TO DEBATE OLD LEGENDS VS THE CURRENT GENERATION

TERESA THE LEGEND VS THE NEWCOMER PRISCILLA.

this is quite a prevalent human behavior and interest.

Goral
February 05, 2010, 08:17 AM
(...)
1) Her status as the former number one does not automatically make her abyssal class. Think about all the generations of claymores that have likely existed. The idea of there being only three abyssal ones if every number one has the potential to be abyssal class beings is absurd. (...)
That's all fine and all but you're forgetting one thing. If we were to believe what Miria said MiB came to the island about a century ago (and rather less than more since they probably did some experiments on the continent first and then relocated to the island). During these 100 years Isley, Riful, Luciella, (Rosemary), Teresa, Priscilla, Alicia, Miata were or would be #1's. Including Rosemary every #1 would have averagely 12,5 years of "bossing" (that's a long time but since #1 were the most powerful warriors they would need the most time to overuse their youma powers) but that's only assuming that every generation would have #1. That's an assumption I would not make since we know that the organization preferred to not nominate a warrior for #1 spot if he didn't deserve it. The fact we don't see many abyssals only means that during 100 years only few warriors were powerful enough to become one. It's very probable also that after Riful's rebellion the org decided to not make another uncontrollable potential abyssal one and thus they came up with the idea of soul-link. There may have been a huge time gap between Riful becoming #1 and another warrior becoming #1.

Let me elaborate the argument where I say that MiB are cautious when giving numbers. Every #1 we've seen so far was extremely powerful and the gap between #1 and the rest of the top 5 was really big, why then Rosemary would be an exception? Number 1 symbolizes organizations power and pride, powerful #1 raises morale in the "ranks". If they started to give #1-5 to claymores slightly above the average there could be commotion, "why it wasn't me" and that sort of problems, maybe even fights. We've never seen they gave a high number to someone who didn't deserve it, so why think they would change it ? They could give as well specific number to more than one warrior.
In all cases that we know of, not even once MiB gave #1 to someone that didn't deserve it. Also it doesn't look to me that the Org wanted to have every number staffed with a claymore, no matter how weak he would be. If someone doesn't deserve high number then they prefer to not give it to that someone (give me an example of such warrior if you think I'm wrong). For example, when numbers 2-5 were sent to kill Teresa (who lost her number the moment she left the Org), Priscilla didn't receive #1 and Irene didn't retain #2 position (Priscilla although stronger than Irene who was worthy of #2 wasn't #1). Why ? Because Priscilla had the potential to be number 1 but wasn't worthy of it yet. Miata - very strong Claymore who could have the top position is only #4. Raphaela definitely worthy of #3 was #5 and Clare was #47 even though she did better in the fight with male AB than Helen and Deneve (and I would even go as far as to say that she did better than Miria).
My point is, they rather demote strong warriors than promote weaklings because they have lack of good staff. What would be the purpose of giving the highest number to someone who would lose it the next time trainees would graduate?
Even if they were short-handed why would they make some average single digit warrior as #1? Would they even need ranking at the time when they would be in a crisis (Riful's and Luciella's incidents)?

Rosemary must have been extremely strong since Orsay was concerned and uneasy. He was emphasising the fact she would be fighting former #1 and didn't think that even she could defeat awakened former #1 even though he considered her as "the strongest monster". Teresa's task was however to kill defenceless warrior and anyone could do it. That tells us that Rosemary wasn't a small fry, it doesn't tell us she was of abyssal class but she was definitely at least close to it. And since we know that Rosemary was #1 until Teresa appeared that would mean Irene - one of the strongest warriors that ever existed - was nothing compared to Rosemary and wasn't even considered as contender for #1 spot (unless Irene appeared after Teresa but judging by the fact she fought with her before I doubt it).

You're making the same mistake again. Just because we haven't seen more abyssals you're jumping to conclusion that not every #1 would be of abyssal level while we don't know whether there always was #1.


The rank of number one only means that the described warrior is the best of her generation.
That's just your assumption. The fact we don't know number ones other than Isley, Riful, Luciella, Rosemary, Teresa and Alicia doesn't mean that there were other number ones. A warrior with #2 could also be the best of his generation. Priscilla was #2 and she wasn't given #1 even after Teresa deserted the organization. Teresa didn't become former #1 and Priscilla didn't become #1.


Raphaela encountered Therese shortly after the Luciela incident.
It depends on your definition of "shortly" in this case. We do not know how much time passed between Luciela incident and Rosemary's execution. It would be only few years if we assumed that: Teresa would not be able to detect completely cloaked Rafaela (and we don't know how much time exactly does it take to erase youki presence and for example does the power of warrior has anything to do with that, i.e. would Yuma become a ghost earlier than Miria, and Miria earlier than Rafaela?) and that there was always #1. You don't consider a possibility that there might have been enough of a time gap between Luciella incident and Teresa becoming #1 for Rosemary to be a boss too. Don't forget that Teresa was special and even if Riful was #1 instead of Rosemary she would be demoted too. The only warrior that could be considered stronger by organization was Priscilla (but we know that they didn't know sh*t about her power and never had a chance to see her releasing youki).


Now that Alicia and Beth are gone, Audrey is the de facto number one. Do you think that she is abyssal class?Had Isley never existed Rigardo would have been the number one of his generation. Does that magically make Rigardo abyssal class? While Raphaela was the only abyssal class claymore around when the org was training Alicia and Beth, she was ranked number five. Being number one is relative, and only true number ones deserve to be classified as abyssal class.
As I've written earlier organization doesn't give numbers for nothing and they rather demote they warriors than give a promotion (e.g. Rafaela, even though it was special case it supports my argument).

There is also another argument I have to add. What would be the point of writing this extra scene if not for showing the awesomness and Teresa's true power? I mean, do you think that Yagi wanted to show us that Rosemary was weak or that Teresa was strong? And there is another thing :

Teresa's very character is, "I don't lie. I don't have to." And she never lies at any point EXCEPT IN THIS CASE! What would bring her to do that?
Teresa AFAWK lied only once, after the fight with Rosemary. But why would she do that? She knew that she was considered as "the strongest warrior ever", a monster. So if Rosemary was only a very strong awakened being why would she lie that she defeated such a warrior? Ophelia defeated single-handedly a single digit awakened being, one would think that the strongest #1 ever would be able to defeat the strongest non-abyssal awakened being, don't you think?

While your first argument is very good and valid (and if I weren't Teresa's fanboy I might have been convinced ;)) the second one is unconvincing and written forcefully. Since Teresa was stronger than Rosemary it's no surprise she would be demoted but like I said, the same thing would happen if Riful was #1 then, or Isley, or Luciella. Teresa was just too strong and even Priscilla wasn't strong enough (yet) for the organization to swap Teresa's and Priscilla's numbers (even though Irene needed only one look to know that she could never match Priscilla).
And just because there wasn't a duel it doesn't mean the org didn't consider Rosemary as "true number one". It just means they were confident that it would be a waste of "resources" and that Teresa could deal with Rosemary if necessary (assuming she would be unawakened). Notice however that Orsay was very uneasy when Teresa was going to execute Rosemary and afraid that Rosemary would awaken.

P.S.
I agree that discussing who's stronger is pointless but somehow that discussion never tires me :).
Kaliayev, I will have the time to respond you probably no earlier than Tuesday but I probably will.

White Silver King
February 05, 2010, 03:37 PM
Does anyone else think Galatea should be considered as a rank 1 (power-wise of course) because she bested Miata (well she probably would have bested Miata but she was not only focusing on Miata but Agatha too), who a black cloak (can't remember which one) said would be a number one or number one level if her emotional state was more stable and Galatea had the greatest power increase when releasing her Yoma energy. Also she is a defensive warrior and while this does make her attacks weaker they are already really strong and it can be assumed she has very powerful healing abilities because she is defensive as well as her Yoki manipulation powers which we have seen increase healing.

kaliayev
February 05, 2010, 08:06 PM
So because Teresa said: "I usually don't do this a lot but I feel if I don't at least once in a while... I'll forget how to." and because we've never seen her release more than 10% of youki you're concluding that she can't release more than 30% of youki? That's completely baseless although an interesting thought for discussion. We've never seen a claymore that couldn't awaken, in fact we've seen tons of them that could awaken really easily (with Clare being no exception). That's because the more claymore uses his youma powers the closer he gets to being a youma - that's a fact. Also, the weaker the claymore (i.e. the less youki he has and of worse quality) the faster he reaches the point where he awakens once he releases youki again. Teresa was both strong and "economical" so in her case to awaken because of overuse of youma powers would take a long, long time.

As for the words she said to Rosemary, she only states that she doesn't do this a lot so if anything she would not remember how to do it and it would be a matter of mentality rather than not being able to do it at all (but it would be stupid). You're trying to forcefully find a way for Teresa to be weaker than awakened Priscilla because you can't accept that anyone could be as strong as Teresa seems to be. The second argument you used makes even less sense than the first. Because we've never seen Teresa go over 30% she can't go over 30%, lol. Going by your line of thought we could also say that because we haven't seen Yuma go over her limit she can't awaken either.

Overkill would be utterly stupid in Teresa's case. She would have to use lots of youki and come closer to awakening (and we know that she wanted to spend her days with Clare as a daughter not a piece of meat) and it would be a waste of effort since the outcome of the fight would be the same. For the same reason Priscilla didn't take her awakened form when she was fighting Alicia/Beth/Riful. That would be unnecessary and a waste of energy and since she was very hungry and there weren't much food in vicinity it would be stupid of her to do it. But does anyone say that she can't awaken? Yeah, we've seen her awakened form but it was 7 years ago, maybe she forgot how to change like Teresa? lol
In addition, Teresa's own words indicate that she knows a bit about her limits: "We all learn the limits of our youma power as we fight, releasing it bit by bit. That's beyond a beginner like you." Although I doubt she ever went beyond 50% (since she knew that after she reached that point she would be dangerously close to the point of no return and I don't see her as a psychopath that would do sth so dangerous just to amuse herself).

In case you would like to bring Clare's case into this: don't. Clare's case is completely different because she has partially awakened and different rules apply to her. Besides, it's not that she can't awaken (it's very probable that we will see her awakened form and she will go back to her human form thanks to soul-link), she doesn't want to (subconsciously). Either Teresa's/Rafaela's memories made her aware of the mistake she's making at the moment or her rebellious character refuses to obey the monster insde her. She's fought it many times and always won and now the youma inside her doesn't stand a chance. So unless she completely subjects herself to monster's will she won't awaken.
That's of course only speculation on my part (and the idea about becoming immune to the youma wasn't mine but Cyclone's and Aimless' from animesuki) but the fact remains that Clare is half-awakened (according to Miria already awakened) and Teresa was not. Soon enough we will know whether Clare can't awaken or not and what was the cause of her deawakening.

Last but not least, awakenings are like bankais in Bleach, they're the part of this world and make Claymore more interesting. If any claymore could not awaken that would be against the rules Yagi has established and it would be incoherent. Since we haven't seen any claymore that can't awaken (although Clare couldn't in 100th chapter she could at the beginning of the manga and in Pieta and she could muster a lot more than 30% of youki since she was in queen of blades mode) so saying that Teresa couldn't is like saying that Cynthia/Yuma/Tabitha can't either. Your argument is no argument but a completely baseless speculation.

My theory may be an example of inductive reasoning, thereby having natural weaknesses, but that hardly makes it baseless. Here is the information we have: 1) In the narrative, Theresa never went beyond her 10% release (or if you prefer, never went to 30%); 2) Theresa made a statement (http://www.onemanga.com/Claymore/73.1/27/) about her abilities when fighting Rosemary. Now then, inductively concluding that Theresa's personal limit was 10% release (or if you prefer, below 30%) is not a grandiose leap.

Please, if you can find an example of a claymore's awakening being a purely rational decision on the claymore's part, provide it. In my mental review of the awakenings, they have been a result of the claymore losing control of the body through passionate disregard for their personal limit in a single battle, a "gradual" defense mechanism (i.e. what happened to Jean), or the claymore losing control of the body through routine, high-level releases (we know that the partially awakened are in no danger of the last). The last typically occurs with lower level claymores as they have to compensate for their relative weakness through high-level releases. The first is more characteristic of the strongest claymores we've seen awakening (Priscilla, Ophelia, Clare, etc).

Eh, I don't know why you're talking about the awakened Priscilla fighting in human form, especially when you would subsequently tell me not to use Clare as evidence because she is "special" (the fact of the matter is, Clare is closer to being a claymore than Priscilla is). Priscilla's a fully awakened being. As such, she can nigh fully access her potential at any moment. How much of this potential she accesses is ultimately her choice because she has nigh full access to it. Theresa was a claymore, and claymores do not have this luxury. That is why their awakened forms are significantly more powerful than their claymore forms, though, for reasons I noted in an earlier post, I imagine that this wouldn't be the case with Theresa.

Yes, because an argument about Clare's subconscious is infinitely more valid than one that tries to examine her current personal limits.

Finally, I will have you note that I am examining personal limits. As I have repeatedly brought up in my posts, this is not a matter of what is possible, but what is likely. That is, it is possible for Theresa (or any other claymore) to go to 30%/beyond, but it was unlikely that Theresa would go berserk and thus satisfy the conditions for her to release to 30%/beyond. Similarly, it is possible that Clare will fully awaken (we damn near witnessed this in Pieta), but it is unlikely when we compare her current mental state with her mental state when Rigardo was eliminating the buffer force.

@Hegemon
0. Thanks for the clarification.

1. Exactly, but their potentials cannot be defined, or even estimated. That is why I am trying to avoid a discussion about potential, because nothing can be concluded about the potentials of Priscilla and Theresa unless Yagi had the two of them fight as awakened beings. This didn't and will not happen. Instead, we can only determine who, at a given moment, is the stronger of the two. Before Priscilla awakened, Theresa was stronger. After Priscilla awakened, Priscilla was stronger.


Ichigo already responded to your "math" (we're ultimately looking at undefined variables and your arbitrary assignment of numbers to those variables so it is rather pointless), so I won't.


@Goral

If you accuse me of temporal error, I'll do the same :D. Just as we don't know the amount of time between Rosemary's occupying rank one and the Luciela incident, we don't know if Irena's time as a single-digit claymore overlapped with Rosemary's. Promotions and demotions are somewhat common. Someone other than Irena could have been occupying rank three when Rosemary awakened, while Irena could have still been in the 10-30 ranks. Regardless, we have more to work with in regards to Rosemary's rank being a result of the Luciela incident than the idea that Irena was rank three when Rosemary awakened. That is, we have another purge in Clare's generation, which results in a lot of open posts for Clarice's generation, and a decent knowledge of the aftermath. A number of the claymores in Clarice's generation are powerful in their own right, but their ranks are partly a result of vacant posts. Would you consider Audrey, the current number three, as strong as Galatea, who filled the position before Audrey? Same applies to the rest of Clarice's generation in terms of Ophelia, Miria, Raphaela, and all the other ranks that were left vacant. Keep in mind that these posts are pretty much all filled by the claymores of Clarice's generation over the course of seven years. Now then, my reserving seven years for the time in between the Luciela incident and the time that Theresa and Raphaela met is rather generous (after the Luciela incident, the org seemed very eager to find twins. This would easily take them less than seven years. Some time would have passed between Raphaela's learning that twins had been recruited and the meeting with Theresa, but the twins issue was still fresh in her mind when the latter occurred). Due to vacancies/losses, the ranks one and two, who had probably reached their peaks while Luciela and Raphaela were training/occupying ranks one and two, that succeeded Luciela and Raphaela would naturally not be abyssal class and would be considerably weaker than the former ranks one and two. However, they would likely hold these positions until Theresa began her ascent.


We know that Isley, Duff, and Rigardo engaged in routine bouts, in order to test one another, while they were occupying ranks one through three. The same would have occurred when Theresa, Irena, and those other two were occupying ranks one through four. If Rosemary was at her peak, which is likely the case given her rash reaction to her demotion, any claymore, who was weaker but had not reached her peak at the time, would have eventually challenged Rosemary for subsequent ranks (2 down to 3 down to 4. She would have been especially pleased after such events). Meanwhile, Rosemary chose to awaken immediately after losing her rank, making it impossible for any future claymore, such as Irena, to challenge her for the rank two position. When Irena talks about her fights with Theresa, she conveniently fails to mention anything about Rosemary (yay, for extra scenes that are somewhat inconsistent with past events). Rosemary was simply a claymore created for the sole purpose of an extra scene, which greatly discounts her relevance to the ranks of individuals who were chronologically around after her death.


Notice however that Orsay was very uneasy when Teresa was going to execute Rosemary and afraid that Rosemary would awaken.

He was uneasy because any single-digit awakening can result in substantial losses for the org. If they don't have a warrior/group of warriors that can cope with a very powerful awakened being and this awakened being decides to actively antagonize the org, the org is kinda screwed. At the time, they simply didn't think Theresa was capable of taking on Rosemary's awakened form. Again, as we both agree, this is indicative of how much the org underestimated Theresa's strength.


That's all fine and all but you're forgetting one thing. If we were to believe what Miria said MiB came to the island about a century ago (and rather less than more since they probably did some experiments on the continent first and then relocated to the island). During these 100 years Isley, Riful, Luciella, (Rosemary), Teresa, Priscilla, Alicia, Miata were or would be #1's. Including Rosemary every #1 would have averagely 12,5 years of "bossing" (that's a long time but since #1 were the most powerful warriors they would need the most time to overuse their youma powers) but that's only assuming that every generation would have #1. That's an assumption I would not make since we know that the organization preferred to not nominate a warrior for #1 spot if he didn't deserve it. The fact we don't see many abyssals only means that during 100 years only few warriors were powerful enough to become one. It's very probable also that after Riful's rebellion the org decided to not make another uncontrollable potential abyssal one and thus they came up with the idea of soul-link. There may have been a huge time gap between Riful becoming #1 and another warrior becoming #1.

You're making the same mistake again. Just because we haven't seen more abyssals you're jumping to conclusion that not every #1 would be of abyssal level while we don't know whether there always was #1.

Now, we both know that Miria's main continent theory and the manga's narrative are inconsistent (there's a thread for this, so using your speculation on this as evidence for an argument about a somewhat unrelated matter is suspect). Given the temporal length of generations we've seen thus far, 100 years simply doesn't make sense. Regardless, the range of generations is six, with six being the number of specifically "named" generations, to x, with x being an unknown number. While I see the arbitrary rankings game isn't enough to persuade you, you're playing a similar game with arbitrary # of generations and a reliance on the org's ultimately poor judgment. Very well, I will have to rely on something else.

Let's review the known abyssal class warriors (I'm going to ignore Clare and Clarice's generation in this list because they aren't particularly relevant to Rosemary's status): Isley, Riful, Luciela, Theresa, Raphaela, and Priscilla. There's an interesting characteristic that they all, except for claymore Priscilla (awakened Priscilla now does), display: the ability to "properly gauge" the individuals they encounter. Isley had an idea of Priscilla's power after he fired his warning shots and immediately went on the offensive, hoping to catch her off-guard, because of her power. To an extent, this worked. He destroyed parts of her body, but that wasn't enough. While he could know that she was stronger than he was, he wouldn't have known about her limitless youki. Shortly after he realized that he would lose and that she did not necessarily have an intent to kill him, he conceded. When Riful first saw Priscilla, the former could tell that she could not match the latter. Riful left without a confrontation. When Raphaela saw Theresa, she could tell her potential was beyond abyssal class. I'm sure you get the picture. Did we see this level of assessment on Rosemary's part? No, even after encountering Theresa, we get a scene that illustrates her ignorance (http://www.onemanga.com/Claymore/73.1/24/). Rosemary was not displaying the insight that one expects of an abyssal class ab. She did not realize Theresa's strength until she was practically dead.


This isn't the only characteristic abyssal class abs share. There is another: nigh ideal specializations for fighting others, be they awakened beings or claymores. Isley had his adaptable weapons and lock-on arrows. Luciela could eat anything that got close to her. The structure/weakness of Riful's body is indiscernable and she can strike out extensively in all directions. Priscilla's limitless youki allows her to spew youki out from any part of her body, meaning that you pretty much need to destroy every part of her to win. That is not to say that other awakened beings don't have interesting and useful specializations (i.e. Duff's rods), but we can tell that they hardly compare to the specializations of the abyssal class. Now, let's look back at Rosemary. Did we see an abyssal class specialization from her? She had a nifty tail, a few extra heads, and was strong for an awakened being. Does that compare favorably to what we've seen from abyssal class abs?



There is also another argument I have to add. What would be the point of writing this extra scene if not for showing the awesomness and Teresa's true power? I mean, do you think that Yagi wanted to show us that Rosemary was weak or that Teresa was strong?

Hmmm, why did Yagi create the extra scenes? Over the course of the manga, Yagi had barely touched upon issues that seemed rather important at the time. As he got further and further into the manga and refined his thoughts and characters, he would begin to regret not pursuing said issues when they were "relevant." We see this in all of the extra scenes: 1) is a fight between Theresa and a strong ab; 2) deals with the implied past between Ophelia and Miria, and why Miria despised Ophelia as much as she did; 3) examines the fight between Isley and Priscilla. Riful told us that this fight occurred and we eventually discovered that Priscilla was stronger than an abyssal one, but we didn't know how Isley and Priscilla formed their relationship; 4) deals with a relatively minor issue, but it exposes us to Clare's training days.

Obviously, the one most relevant to this discussion is the first extra scene. However, we need to contextualize it. When Yagi introduced, and quickly killed off, Theresa, he had barely touched upon the issue of abs. This is reflected by the fact that the only entities we ever saw Theresa fight were claymores, basic yoma, and humans. Yagi hadn't incorporated a fight against what would become one of the central entities of the manga. However, early in the manga, there were ultimately two paths he could have chosen: explore the awakened beings before introducing Theresa or introduce Theresa ASAP in order to establish the parallels between the relationships of TheresaxClare and ClarexRaki at a relevant time. We know he chose the latter, and those parallels, along with the Priscilla and Theresa duel, were the primary concerns of Theresa of the Faint Smile and Marked for Death. Because we had never seen an ab before, Yagi couldn't really construct a fight between Theresa and a powerful ab. This was somewhat of a failure on his part because we eventually discovered numerous abs who were incredibly powerful, and whose increasingly dominant existence would force us to question the quality of Theresa's generation. Yagi's solution to this was to create the first extra scene, which dealt with the kind of fight that he had neglected early in the manga.

While this extra scene reminded us of Theresa's primacy, while she was alive, it also gave us what we had always wanted: a fight between Theresa and an awakened being. Theresa was powerful, and she had to have been involved in numberous fights against powerful abs. To entertain us, Yagi would have to "unnaturally" insert the number one that preceded Theresa into the narrative. However, while Rosemary was strong and Theresa could probably hold her own against an abyssal one, we have little evidence that Rosemary was abyssal class. Her existence in canon was limited to a single, extra scene. We cannot treat her as we do well-established characters, let alone well-established rumors. As such, she is not the equivalent of an abyssal one, a classification of beings we've known about since the conclusion of Purgatory. She was simply a powerful ab who was contained within a single chapter.

While you make the argument that the extra scene was in there to illustrate Theresa's strength before her death, you fail to apply this same understanding to the awakened Priscilla. After Priscilla's extra scene, we knew that she was stronger than an abyssal one. To a degree, the extra scenes put Theresa and Priscilla on somewhat equal footing. That is, we know that Priscilla could overwhelm an abyssal one and strongly believe that Theresa could do the same. But now, with recent chapters, Yagi is going far beyond Priscilla's extra scene. She obliterated two abyssal class abs, killed a weakened Riful, and handily put Clare in her place. Priscilla's strength has gone beyond the strength that Theresa exhibited in the first extra scene.

Also, dunno why you included that quote from animesuki. :D


Does anyone else think Galatea should be considered as a rank 1 (power-wise of course) because she bested Miata (well she probably would have bested Miata but she was not only focusing on Miata but Agatha too), who a black cloak (can't remember which one) said would be a number one or number one level if her emotional state was more stable and Galatea had the greatest power increase when releasing her Yoma energy. Also she is a defensive warrior and while this does make her attacks weaker they are already really strong and it can be assumed she has very powerful healing abilities because she is defensive as well as her Yoki manipulation powers which we have seen increase healing.

Galatea is a little tricky. While I think she probably is abyssal class, there's a decent amount of surface evidence in favor of and against this position. Perhaps you should make a thread...:blink


p.s. I feel like we should allow some others to make some points, provided they have both an interest and can produce detailed arguments.

HegemonKhan
February 06, 2010, 01:36 AM
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If anyone is interested in this incredibly long post, I'd suggest just picking a (or a few) segment/section of it, and only respondng to that single or few segments/sections that interest you. as this entire post is bookishly long, laughs
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Does anyone else think Galatea should be considered as a rank 1 (power-wise of course) because she bested Miata (well she probably would have bested Miata but she was not only focusing on Miata but Agatha too), who a black cloak (can't remember which one) said would be a number one or number one level if her emotional state was more stable and Galatea had the greatest power increase when releasing her Yoma energy. Also she is a defensive warrior and while this does make her attacks weaker they are already really strong and it can be assumed she has very powerful healing abilities because she is defensive as well as her Yoki manipulation powers which we have seen increase healing.


Actually, it's Miata whom bested Galatea.

1. FIRST, and foremost, Galatea herself states that, she is too weak to kill Agatha, which is why she released her yoki, hoping she would be found by powerful warriors, and possibly at the sacrifice of her life for Rabona and its human inhabitants' sake, they would also kill Agatha for her.

2. At first, Galatea is disappointed, with whom the Organization sent, she was pridefully expecting "better" warriors to be sent to kill her lol, but she felt that the Organization must be hurting on "man power" (err woman power) and thus could only send these "two" (Clarice and Miata).

3. Weak and novice Clarice certainly was cause for concern. However, Galatea did soon recognize Miata's power, however, she also noticed Miata was young and very inexperienced (a novice) too.

4. At, first veteran-experienced Galatea dominated instinctual but inexperience/novice Miata. Galatea surprised Miata by using her unique yoki ability to enhance her power, and sent Miata flying through a building.

5. HOWEVER, after this, Galatea no longer bested Miata. Miata got angry/relesaed yoki/or got scolded my Clarice, and "turned it up". rank 1 Miata was suddenly too powerful for poor rank 3 Galatea. Miata moved so fast, that Galatea couldn't get out of the way as Miata sliced off her arm.

6. Miata was now fully dominating/superior to Galatea, HOWEVER, Agatha hasn't been idling around watching them fight.

7. Agatha herself realized that it was Miata whom was the threat, NOT Galatea. Miata was superior to Galatea. It was Miata whom Agatha had to worry about, NOT Galatea. And so, unknown to inexperienced Miata, whom was 100% focusing on Galatea, and foolishly ignoring Agatha, allowed wise rank 2 Agatha, to gradually build up her attack on Miata so that Miata (or Galatea or Clarice) wouldn't realize it until it was too late, which it was. (wonders if the rain, was Agatha's attack. hmm)

I firmly believe that if Miata had targetted Agatha, and not Galatea, Agatha would have been dead in mere minutes. But, by targetting Galatea, it allowed Agatha to slowly/gradually, slice Miata into pieces.

*Galatea herself said that Agatha was more powerul then her. she couldn't kill Agatha.
*Agatha knew it was Miata whom could kill her, NOT Galatea, and that's why Agatha focused on Miata.
*Thus, I conclude that Miata is superior to Galatea in terms of whom's better, whom would win.
*We do see Miata at the end over-powering Galatea, but then it is interupted by Miata falling apart from Agatha's cunning gradual attack upon her.
* Galatea < Agatha < Miata

8. finally Galatea realizes what Agatha has been doing to Miata and shouts to Clarice to tell Miata about it, but it was too late. Miata was about to fall apart.

9. And, YET, rank 1 Miata's brute strength nearly enabled her to pull over Agatha's giant pod body with her bare hands and body, even as her hands were about to rip off! Well, her hands did rip off, lol, but otherwise, she would have pulled giant Agatha's pod body over! Miata is very very very powerful, she's a rank 1 after all, and Galatea is only a rank 3.

10. Miata is presumably an offensive type. but, because she's a rank 1, with a lot of power, just like Rafaela, she is able to regenerated.

Whereas, much weaker presumably offensive rank 22 helen, is unable to regenerate her eye, and (at least previously) too weak rank 47 Clare is also unable to regenerate as well. Rafaela could have regenerated her eye, according to Rubel, but she choose not to because it served as self-punishment for her allowing her beloved sister Luciela to awaken, and as a reminder of her weakness/failure to save her beloved sister Luciela from awakening. Rafaela could have regenerated her eye, but CHOSE not to. Miata as well has been seen to regenerate her arms. powerful awakened beings whom presumably were/are offensive types can also be seen regenerating. Offensive types CAN regenerate, but they need a lot of power compared to defensive types. This is why some offensive types can regenerate and others can't. The ones that can regenerate have more power or yoki, then the ones whom can't.

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as to the question of whether Galatea should be considered as a rank 1 now or not:


we don't know just how much or what her blindness and years (training? did she train?) in hiding has resulted in with Galatea.


pre-blindness and pre-7 years galatea:

as the GOD EYE (yoki powers) she's certainly a contender for rank 1 material. Though we don't know if she is better then Teresa, Rafaela, Alicia, Beth, but that doesn't mean she shouldn't be considered for rank 1 material in terms of yoki power, as she could be just the weakest of them, but still of rank 1 calibur.


the problem with Galatea, is that she doesn't have that great of an offensive might. She's actually not that strong offensively, in ways she's much like Audrey, or Audrey is like her, lol.

Audrey, because she is weak, has developed a "magically like" sword technique, the Gentle Sword. This Gentle Sword is kinda like that guy from bleach, forgot his name, where his sword makes whatever it touches heavier, except that it allows Audrey to control the things it touches. We see that audrey after hitting Riful's ribbons, is able to use/control Riful's own ribbons against her.

Well, Galatea, is weak offensively, so she developed a unique ability with her yoki, to enhance her power beyond what it should normally be at a given yoki amount. This makes Galatea quite powerful, but she still got dominated by Dauf, and was only seen to be able to slice off his hand and his left cheek open. We never got to see if Galatea could have been able to fatally slice Dauf or not, since he dominated her. So, we don't know if Galatea was able to make her attacks as powerful as Jean's Drill Sword or not.

actually... err.. we do know.. Galatea NEEDED Jean's Drill Sword to kill Dauf, because she was too weak to do so. Galatea even with her enhanced power through her unique yoki ability, still was TOO WEAK to kill Dauf, hence the need for Jean's powerful Drill Sword.


Blind and after 7 years galatea:

all we know is that her GOD EYE is now a SUPER GOD EYE, due to her blindness, allowing her to fight as she wasn't blind, while she IS blind. She can sense the real body of Agatha moving around inside her exoskeleton/shell awakened body. But, so can Tabatha, a rank 31.

we have no idea, if Galatea has gotten more offensively powerful or not, nor have we seen if her unique "enhancing" of power ability is greater.

we don't know if Galatea was using her full power and/or including the full unique ability of her to enhance her power, though she does at least raise her yoki against Miata. we don't know if this is merely her raising her yoki or her using her unique ability to enhance her power as well as raising her yoki.

we know/see that Miata displayed more power then of what we saw galatea do. but again, *maybe* galatea wasn't using her full power, as she certainly doesn't want to kill miata.

HOWEVER, rank 3 Galatea said herself she is too weak to kill rank 2 Agatha, and with her yoki powers, we can probably assume she's correct, lol. Galatea doesn't want to kill miata because she needs Miata to kill Agatha for her. This seems to clearly say that Miata is more powerful and (at least with time/experience/maturity, lol) "superior" to galatea.

conclusion:

based on what we do know, Galatea is NOT rank 1 material on a whole. However, if we only look at yoki ability, blind Galatea probably is at rank 1 material now.

*i do have a theory/belief that Galatea possibly CAN do the soul link now. hehe. she does have great yoki powers, especially now from her blindness. Also, Rubel "conviently" allowed her to watch Alicia+Beth+Soul Link in action against the 11 ABs of isley's remaining 23 army after Pieta which attacked the Organization HQ's, but Alicia destroyed them all just ouside, before Galatea went AWOL and ended up in Rabona. Coincidence, that Rubel would allow God Eye Galatea to watch the Soul Link in action and explain about it to her as she does... hmm... riiiight.... coincidence..... uh..... huh....

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"Please, if you can find an example of a claymore's awakening being a purely rational decision on the claymore's part, provide it. In my mental review of the awakenings, they have been a result of the claymore losing control of the body through passionate disregard for their personal limit in a single battle, a "gradual" defense mechanism (i.e. what happened to Jean), or the claymore losing control of the body through routine, high-level releases (we know that the partially awakened are in no danger of the last). The last typically occurs with lower level claymores as they have to compensate for their relative weakness through high-level releases. The first is more characteristic of the strongest claymores we've seen awakening (Priscilla, Ophelia, Clare, etc)."
-kaliayev


it is true that most awakenings weren't intentional. (what this has to do with anything related to Teresa vs Priscilla, i've yet to understand...)


but here's some (which are indeed few) examples which you asked for:

1. Clare. She intentionally hits/passes 80% yoki. Riful herself even comments about how this intentional passing your limits actually for some reason causes you to be MORE powerful then if you un-intentionally pass your limits during the witches maw "arc".

2. Deneve. After the male awakened fight Miria asks all of them if they've passed their limits. all four of them tell about it. Deneve states that she intentionally tested how "far she can go" and accidentally went "one too far" and began to awaken, but was able to stop/prevent from awakening on her own somehow.

3. Rosemary. She intentionally awakened, so that she would be more powerful and surprise Teresa too, in order to help her kill Teresa. Unfortunately, Rosemary's having awakened already was already known by Teresa upon at least her approach towards rosemary, and poor Rosemary was pitifully weak, despite being an awakened rank 1, compared to GOD-POWERED Teresa. hehe.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

"Eh, I don't know why you're talking about the awakened Priscilla fighting in human form, especially when you would subsequently tell me not to use Clare as evidence because she is "special" (the fact of the matter is, Clare is closer to being a claymore than Priscilla is). Priscilla's a fully awakened being. As such, she can nigh fully access her potential at any moment. How much of this potential she accesses is ultimately her choice because she has nigh full access to it. Theresa was a claymore, and claymores do not have this luxury. That is why their awakened forms are significantly more powerful than their claymore forms, though, for reasons I noted in an earlier post, I imagine that this wouldn't be the case with Theresa."
-kaliayev


i'll just make these comments:

Awakened Beings (ABs) that we've seen in human form:

(Priscilla is CLEARLY NOT of AB low calibur, lol. She's the QUEEN of AOs, lol)

1. Rigardo
2. Dauf
3. the male AB (in the Paburo mountains, vs Miria, Deneve, Helen, and Clare)
4. the female AB (former single digit Claymore, rank 5/6 Elda from Teresa's "Era" maybe. in Gonal town ruins, vs Clare, Ophelia, and "Raki", lol)
5. the female AB (in Lacroa town, vs Clare, Cynthia, and Yuma)

ALL of them NEVER fought in their human form. (Dauf's ramming his poles into a chained up Jean, is certainly not a FIGHT/BATTLE, lol). I'm going to presume ABs are too weak in human form to fight stronger Claymores or other ABs.

Abyssal Ones (AOs) in human form:

1. Isley
2. Riful
3. Luciela
4. Priscilla
5. Alicia
6. Beth

Isley:

Isley is incredibly powerful in his human form. Despite being exhausted and near dead, he easily was far too powerful for Deneve and Helen. He's able to Awaken only his arms and use them (just like Clare) while keeping the rest of his body human, which he prefers to do if he can.

However, his awakened centaur form greatly increases his already great power, as well as giving him the extra abilities that come with it. he gets incredible speed, faster then even silver eyed lion king rigardo. Also, his power increases, especially when he does his lance arm along with his fast charging centaur speed. Unfortunately, we never get to see his superior (and powerful) swordsmanship with his sword arm against the AFs/AEs. cries. Lastly, his bow and arrow arms attack is greatly more powerful while in his awakened centaur form. his arrows fly faster, making them more powerful (more force), and he can control/change them in flight too.

Riful:

...........

err.. this is going to take too long to describe all of them... hopefully you get my point about it.

my points are these:

1. ABs in human form (so far) seem to be too weak for them to use.

2. AOs in human form are usually still vastly more powerful then the higher/hghest ranks (normal) Claymores. Even Alicia whom wasn't really an awakened yet (due to soul link) fought quite well in her human form against Riful, though Riful was exhausted/tired/damaged as well, but still Alicia fought like the rank 1 Claymore that she was, and her awakened form was at least around a match for Riful's awakened form.

3. there's a huge difference for ALL characters, between their human/Claymore forms vs their awakened forms. Awakened Priscilla is helluva powerful even in her human form, but her awakened form is another level entirely. Same with Isley, Riful, and Luciela too. They are incredibly powerful in their humans forms, but are even more powerful in their awakened forms.

not to mention all the extra abilities they can do due to their awakened forms vs their human/Claymore forms.

this includes TERESA. Teresa is GODLY as a Claymore. Imagine if she awakened... imagine what she would be like in an awakened form! What's beyond godly.... lol... HORRORIFYING NIGHTMARISH MONSTER OF MONSTERS? laughs.

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"This isn't the only characteristic abyssal class abs share. There is another: nigh ideal specializations for fighting others, be they awakened beings or claymores. Isley had his adaptable weapons and lock-on arrows. Luciela could eat anything that got close to her. The structure/weakness of Riful's body is indiscernable and she can strike out extensively in all directions. Priscilla's limitless youki allows her to spew youki out from any part of her body, meaning that you pretty much need to destroy every part of her to win. That is not to say that other awakened beings don't have interesting and useful specializations (i.e. Duff's rods), but we can tell that they hardly compare to the specializations of the abyssal class. Now, let's look back at Rosemary. Did we see an abyssal class specialization from her? She had a nifty tail, a few extra heads, and was strong for an awakened being. Does that compare favorably to what we've seen from abyssal class abs?"
-kaliayev


i actually find this to be a very intersting point you raise and it makes quite a bit of sense too.


BUT, lol.

you got a few problems with this idea:

Clare, Alicia, and Beth.

Clare, Alicia, Beth, and Rosemary have kinda similar bodies. They aren't as versatile as like you mentioned about Isley, Riful, and Luciela.

HOWEVER, they are quite specialized, and CAN and DID compete equally against Isley, Riful, and Luciela's bodies.

1. Alicia with her bladed buzzsaw sleek body was terribly dangerous for Riful (and especially poor dauf, lol). Riful had to be really really cautious and defensive, which fortunately she's quite skilled at being already, as otherwise Alicia probably would have sliced her to pieces, killing her.

2. Clare, while she never fought Isley, Riful (she didn't really ever FIGHT with her), or Luciela, does have a similar body to Alicia's, well her awakened shoulder HUGE BLADE ARMS are like how Alicia's entire body is, though as of now (especially since her limb awakening failed and we didn't get to see how more powerful she is now) Clare seems still much weaker then Alicia as of ch 100. She did kill rigardo. granted this means nothing, as rigardo doesn't even compare to Isley, Riful, or Luciela, but this was also a long time ago, we KNOW Clare has gotten stronger, and we now have to await for future chapters to see how powerful clare now is with her awakened limbs if she can figure out what went wrong and fix it, lol.

However, we do see Clare fighting Priscilla! whom is far more powerful then isley, riful, and luciela. Clare actually doesn't do that bad against priscilla.. excluding priscilla's sheer power advantage over clare, enabling her to stomp clare's head into the ground, lol.

3. the team work of Awakened Alicia and Awakened Beth, actually displayed that Priscilla isn't without some weaknesses. In fact, AO Alicia+ AO Beth was such a threat to Priscilla, that she had to and did kill them, immediately. AO Alicia and AO Beth using teamwork greatly damaged priscilla. as priscilla tried to attack Alicia in front of her, beth speared priscila's back with her tail, ripping it open. when priscilla turned around to take on beth behind her, alicia charged and sliced up priscilla now from behind her.

the problem for AO Alicia+AO beth and Clare (and Isley), was simply that Priscilla is just too powerful. she has so much power or yoki, that she couldn easily handle regenerating the great damage done to her by Alicia+Beth (and Isley, when they fought, long ago). Then using her great power or yoki, she proceeded to demolish/dominate them. quickly appearing in front of alicia and decapitating her. sending her tentacles out, destroying half of isley's centaur body in an instant single attack, and PWNING Clare with ease.

4. Rosemary. the points you make about her are based on what is shown. the problem is that we never really get to see what rosemary can do. rosemary isn't using her full power, as we see, she feels she can toy with teresa, laughs... WRONG. teresa then shows rosemary that it is she whom is actually toying with her. then the manga skips the rest of the fight. we don't get to see rosemary desperately fighting teresa, showing what she can do. we only got to see rosemary "toying around" with teresa initially, not realizing she's NO match for teresa.

so, you really shouldn't be basing your view on the teresa vs rosemary battle, saying rosemary is a weak AB level like maybe Rigardo or Dauf or Agatha. we simply don't see rosemary's actual power, because the manga skips the real battle between them, grr,

only showing us with teresa 99% victorious....and that 1% is her damaged cloak/cape, laughs, MUHAHAHAAHAH!

White Silver King
February 06, 2010, 03:31 PM
1. FIRST, and foremost, Galatea herself states that, she is too weak to kill Agatha, which is why she released her yoki, hoping she would be found by powerful warriors, and possibly at the sacrifice of her life for Rabona and its human inhabitants' sake, they would also kill Agatha for her.

2. At first, Galatea is disappointed, with whom the Organization sent, she was pridefully expecting "better" warriors to be sent to kill her lol, but she felt that the Organization must be hurting on "man power" (err woman power) and thus could only send these "two" (Clarice and Miata).

3. Weak and novice Clarice certainly was cause for concern. However, Galatea did soon recognize Miata's power, however, she also noticed Miata was young and very inexperienced (a novice) too.

4. At, first veteran-experienced Galatea dominated instinctual but inexperience/novice Miata. Galatea surprised Miata by using her unique yoki ability to enhance her power, and sent Miata flying through a building.

5. HOWEVER, after this, Galatea no longer bested Miata. Miata got angry/relesaed yoki/or got scolded my Clarice, and "turned it up". rank 1 Miata was suddenly too powerful for poor rank 3 Galatea. Miata moved so fast, that Galatea couldn't get out of the way as Miata sliced off her arm.


Yes but Galatea only really started getting hurt when Agatha showed up too. Galatea was trying to deal with Agatha (an awakened number 2), Miata (numer 1 potential) and protect the city she loved all at the same time.

kaliayev
February 06, 2010, 05:49 PM
it is true that most awakenings weren't intentional. (what this has to do with anything related to Teresa vs Priscilla, i've yet to understand...)


but here's some (which are indeed few) examples which you asked for:

1. Clare. She intentionally hits/passes 80% yoki. Riful herself even comments about how this intentional passing your limits actually for some reason causes you to be MORE powerful then if you un-intentionally pass your limits during the witches maw "arc".

2. Deneve. After the male awakened fight Miria asks all of them if they've passed their limits. all four of them tell about it. Deneve states that she intentionally tested how "far she can go" and accidentally went "one too far" and began to awaken, but was able to stop/prevent from awakening on her own somehow.

3. Rosemary. She intentionally awakened, so that she would be more powerful and surprise Teresa too, in order to help her kill Teresa. Unfortunately, Rosemary's having awakened already was already known by Teresa upon at least her approach towards rosemary, and poor Rosemary was pitifully weak, despite being an awakened rank 1, compared to GOD-POWERED Teresa. hehe.

It has to do with a theory that people seem to have forgotten about. When Miria first speculated about their status as partially awakened beings, she argued that they may be able to go beyond the conventional limit for claymores at any time they choose. Deneve then tested that theory. We know that, thanks to Pieta, chapter 100, and repeatedly transcending the conventional limit, fully awakening for a partially awakened claymore is an entirely different matter.

1. Clare wouldn't have awakened in that instance. While she was certainly riled up, the speculations we were "given" in that scene were from the perspectives of Riful and Galatea. Neither of those two knew the full implications of partially awakened beings (Galatea could guess, but a hunch wouldn't have been enough for her to risk Clare continuing to fight near the conventional limit). Riful and Galatea were both reacting to the situation as though Clare were a somewhat normal claymore. Meanwhile, we can look back at Deneve's attempt to "awaken" near the conclusion of the Slashers. Based on the appearances of Clare and Deneve in their respective incidents, the latter had gone even further than Clare did in Riful's lair. However, Deneve did not fully awaken, and, had Galatea not intervened, the same was incredibly likely to hold true for Clare.

2. That is an interesting case, but I'm fairly certain that it would have been a variation on the third type (losing control of the body due to repeatedly using high-level releases). In order to determine where her limit was, without reaching it in a moment of passion, she would have had to incrementally increased her level of release over a period of time. That is, her releases would have been 50, then 55, then 60, etc. until she reached her point of no return (this incremental increase likely made her point of no return slightly lower than it would have been for a passionate release). She was increasing her personal limit (that is, the level of release she would be able to achieve in a rational, rather than passionate fight) over time in order to discover where her conventional limit (point of no return) was. This, regardless of when she lost control, still would have been a gradual process, rather than a rational choice to awaken in a single moment.

3. Last time I checked, we weren't given especially intimate details regarding Rosemary's awakening. We know that she sent the black card after awakening. That, and not the awakening, would have been the rational choice, with her thinking a fight with Theresa would be an easy victory. What we saw from Rosemary was a women who was overly passionate about her standing. We know that even after whatever amount of time there was between her awakening and meeting Theresa, Rosemary was still berserk about being demoted. After discovering her demotion, this fury is what would have led to her awakening.


i'll just make these comments:

Awakened Beings (ABs) that we've seen in human form:

(Priscilla is CLEARLY NOT of AB low calibur, lol. She's the QUEEN of AOs, lol)

1. Rigardo
2. Dauf
3. the male AB (in the Paburo mountains, vs Miria, Deneve, Helen, and Clare)
4. the female AB (former single digit Claymore, rank 5/6 Elda from Teresa's "Era" maybe. in Gonal town ruins, vs Clare, Ophelia, and "Raki", lol)
5. the female AB (in Lacroa town, vs Clare, Cynthia, and Yuma)

ALL of them NEVER fought in their human form. (Dauf's ramming his poles into a chained up Jean, is certainly not a FIGHT/BATTLE, lol). I'm going to presume ABs are too weak in human form to fight stronger Claymores or other ABs.

Abyssal Ones (AOs) in human form:

1. Isley
2. Riful
3. Luciela
4. Priscilla
5. Alicia
6. Beth

Isley:

Isley is incredibly powerful in his human form. Despite being exhausted and near dead, he easily was far too powerful for Deneve and Helen. He's able to Awaken only his arms and use them (just like Clare) while keeping the rest of his body human, which he prefers to do if he can.

However, his awakened centaur form greatly increases his already great power, as well as giving him the extra abilities that come with it. he gets incredible speed, faster then even silver eyed lion king rigardo. Also, his power increases, especially when he does his lance arm along with his fast charging centaur speed. Unfortunately, we never get to see his superior (and powerful) swordsmanship with his sword arm against the AFs/AEs. cries. Lastly, his bow and arrow arms attack is greatly more powerful while in his awakened centaur form. his arrows fly faster, making them more powerful (more force), and he can control/change them in flight too.

Riful:

...........

err.. this is going to take too long to describe all of them... hopefully you get my point about it.

my points are these:

1. ABs in human form (so far) seem to be too weak for them to use.

2. AOs in human form are usually still vastly more powerful then the higher/hghest ranks (normal) Claymores. Even Alicia whom wasn't really an awakened yet (due to soul link) fought quite well in her human form against Riful, though Riful was exhausted/tired/damaged as well, but still Alicia fought like the rank 1 Claymore that she was, and her awakened form was at least around a match for Riful's awakened form.

3. there's a huge difference for ALL characters, between their human/Claymore forms vs their awakened forms. Awakened Priscilla is helluva powerful even in her human form, but her awakened form is another level entirely. Same with Isley, Riful, and Luciela too. They are incredibly powerful in their humans forms, but are even more powerful in their awakened forms.

not to mention all the extra abilities they can do due to their awakened forms vs their human/Claymore forms.[/B]

All I saw in this was an argument that, even though abs have nigh full access to their potential whenever they choose (by revealing their form), they don't choose to fully access their potential unless necessary. That is, they generally prefer to remain in human form as long as possible, even if this means converting a small part of their human form to their true form, as typically occurs with abyssal class abs. I fail to see how this isn't consistent with the point I was making. Now then, I was arguing that using Priscilla's awakened form to somehow illustrate that Theresa could release to 30%/beyond is silly, as different standards apply to different entities. I was trying to point out the irony that Goral would discount my using Clare, a partially awakened claymore, to illustrate Theresa's personal limits, and also argue the above when Priscilla is even further removed from Theresa than Clare is (awakened being--->partially awakened claymore--->claymore).


you got a few problems with this idea:

Clare, Alicia, and Beth.

Clare, Alicia, Beth, and Rosemary have kinda similar bodies. They aren't as versatile as like you mentioned about Isley, Riful, and Luciela.

HOWEVER, they are quite specialized, and CAN and DID compete equally against Isley, Riful, and Luciela's bodies.

1. Alicia with her bladed buzzsaw sleek body was terribly dangerous for Riful (and especially poor dauf, lol). Riful had to be really really cautious and defensive, which fortunately she's quite skilled at being already, as otherwise Alicia probably would have sliced her to pieces, killing her.

2. Clare, while she never fought Isley, Riful (she didn't really ever FIGHT with her), or Luciela, does have a similar body to Alicia's, well her awakened shoulder HUGE BLADE ARMS are like how Alicia's entire body is, though as of now (especially since her limb awakening failed and we didn't get to see how more powerful she is now) Clare seems still much weaker then Alicia as of ch 100. She did kill rigardo. granted this means nothing, as rigardo doesn't even compare to Isley, Riful, or Luciela, but this was also a long time ago, we KNOW Clare has gotten stronger, and we now have to await for future chapters to see how powerful clare now is with her awakened limbs if she can figure out what went wrong and fix it, lol.

However, we do see Clare fighting Priscilla! whom is far more powerful then isley, riful, and luciela. Clare actually doesn't do that bad against priscilla.. excluding priscilla's sheer power advantage over clare, enabling her to stomp clare's head into the ground, lol.

3. the team work of Awakened Alicia and Awakened Beth, actually displayed that Priscilla isn't without some weaknesses. In fact, AO Alicia+ AO Beth was such a threat to Priscilla, that she had to and did kill them, immediately. AO Alicia and AO Beth using teamwork greatly damaged priscilla. as priscilla tried to attack Alicia in front of her, beth speared priscila's back with her tail, ripping it open. when priscilla turned around to take on beth behind her, alicia charged and sliced up priscilla now from behind her.

the problem for AO Alicia+AO beth and Clare (and Isley), was simply that Priscilla is just too powerful. she has so much power or yoki, that she couldn easily handle regenerating the great damage done to her by Alicia+Beth (and Isley, when they fought, long ago). Then using her great power or yoki, she proceeded to demolish/dominate them. quickly appearing in front of alicia and decapitating her. sending her tentacles out, destroying half of isley's centaur body in an instant single attack, and PWNING Clare with ease.

4. Rosemary. the points you make about her are based on what is shown. the problem is that we never really get to see what rosemary can do. rosemary isn't using her full power, as we see, she feels she can toy with teresa, laughs... WRONG. teresa then shows rosemary that it is she whom is actually toying with her. then the manga skips the rest of the fight. we don't get to see rosemary desperately fighting teresa, showing what she can do. we only got to see rosemary "toying around" with teresa initially, not realizing she's NO match for teresa.

so, you really shouldn't be basing your view on the teresa vs rosemary battle, saying rosemary is a weak AB level like maybe Rigardo or Dauf or Agatha. we simply don't see rosemary's actual power, because the manga skips the real battle between them, grr,

only showing us with teresa 99% victorious....and that 1% is her damaged cloak/cape, laughs, MUHAHAHAAHAH!

This part of your post is a little unfocused. Now then, my argument was that abyssal class abs have specializations for fighting that far outclass those of normal abs. Despite how your post started, you seem to be in agreement with this shared characteristic among the abyssal class abs, as you go on to summarize the "fully awakened" forms of Alicia and Clare.

How convenient that you jammed Rosemary's name in that little list of yours.

2. Technically, we haven't seen the final product of Clare's full awakening. With the parts that were fully awakened, she possessed super speed and an exaggerated version of Edward Scissorhands (ideal for trimming bushes...and abs). The way I see her probable awakened form fighting is rushing at an opponent and proceeding to chop them up with her super scissors. This allows her to, with the speed of the qs and the power of an abyssal class ab, severely dismember anything in front of her. That, and the ferocity of her nigh fully awakened form's attack against Rigardo, are clearly abyssal class.

3. So, awakened Priscilla pwns people...what's your point? In each of her fights against abyssal class opponents, even in the "fight" against the severely handicapped Riful, those opponents displayed their abyssal class specialties, even if Priscilla handily defeated each of them.

4. Rosemary showed us what Rosemary can do, and her capabilities were clearly below abyssal class. Besides, there wasn't much of a fight after Theresa released. Theresa simply proceeded to chop Rosemary up with ease (hmmm, chopped Rigardo + chopped Rosemary + noodles = stir fry deliciousness, even if you're Priscilla).


p.s. That extensive portion about Galatea was a tad premature. There isn't even a thread yet :D.

HegemonKhan
February 06, 2010, 07:50 PM
no i didn't "slide" rosemary into that group. I would never stoop that low. I can debate, without such pitiful tricks like that which many politicians and such love to do in their speeches/discussions. i feel she DOES belong with the other 3 of them. unfortunately, all i got to go on is looks, which is admittedly weak, but that's all the manga gave us. to me, Rosemary looks like the Alien Queen in the Alien movies series. This i find to be quite similar to Clare, Alicia, and Beth's forms. they are all kinda like Alien Queens.

or if you played Blizzard's Starcraft (and/or Broodwar expansion) computer game, they are like the zerg, and especially Clare, is like Sarah Kerrigan Queen of Blades. hehe.
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Rosemary did NOT show us what she can do.

slamming Teresa around? you think that is what a rank 1 awakened can only do?

the normal yomas are capable of more then merely slamming their opponent around. yet, you think that indeed rank 1 awakened rosemary is even less capable then a normal yoma which can do more then slamming someone around?

this just doesn't make any sense. priscilla is powerful enough to slam everyone around, so is that all she is capable of? NO, we've even seen her to do more then slam her opponents around. pray tell how you've concluded that rank 1 awakened rosemary is only capable of slamming opponents around! please do, as i am baffled and so curious as how you came up with this conclusion. i want to understand this.

if we hadn't seen Priscilla regenerate and/or use/reveal that her inside body is a mass of tentacles, would you think the same of Priscilla, as you do of Rosemary?

kaliayev
February 07, 2010, 12:13 AM
no i didn't "slide" rosemary into that group. I would never stoop that low. I can debate, without such pitiful tricks like that which many politicians and such love to do in their speeches/discussions. i feel she DOES belong with the other 3 of them. unfortunately, all i got to go on is looks, which is admittedly weak, but that's all the manga gave us. to me, Rosemary looks like the Alien Queen in the Alien movies series. This i find to be quite similar to Clare, Alicia, and Beth's forms. they are all kinda like Alien Queens.

Yes, I have seen Aliens, and yes, Rosemary did look like a xenomorph (don't really see much of a resemblance from Clare or Alicia though). Unfortunately, Rosemary and the abyssal class abs aren't the only bizarre-looking creatures we've seen. The abs look monstrous...they are monsters after all.

Now then, I'm sorry that you feel insulted by my saying that you jammed Rosemary in the list. This was what I was working with:


Clare, Alicia, and Beth.

Clare, Alicia, Beth, and Rosemary have kinda similar bodies. They aren't as versatile as like you mentioned about Isley, Riful, and Luciela.

In the first grouping, you listed current abyssal class claymores. In your second grouping, you listed the same claymores, but then added Rosemary in, insisting that the proof lies in similar appearances (don't really see much of a similarity myself, so your groupings appear flimsy). While it has been proven that Clare, Alicia, and Beth are abyssal class, this is not the case with Rosemary.


Rosemary did NOT show us what she can do.

slamming Teresa around? you think that is what a rank 1 awakened can only do?

the normal yomas are capable of more then merely slamming their opponent around. yet, you think that indeed rank 1 awakened rosemary is even less capable then a normal yoma which can do more then slamming someone around?

this just doesn't make any sense. priscilla is powerful enough to slam everyone around, so is that all she is capable of? NO, we've even seen her to do more then slam her opponents around. pray tell how you've concluded that rank 1 awakened rosemary is only capable of slamming opponents around! please do, as i am baffled and so curious as how you came up with this conclusion. i want to understand this.

if we hadn't seen Priscilla regenerate and/or use/reveal that her inside body is a mass of tentacles, would you think the same of Priscilla, as you do of Rosemary?

Had Rosemary started the battle without insisting on a fight in which she posed as a claymore, I'd agree that she might have been holding back after she revealed her true form. However, we know that she had already satisfied her desire to "fool with" Theresa in this "claymore" fight. After revealing her form, Rosemary would have been going all out against Theresa. She thought that her best would overwhelm Theresa, which would put her in a position to further taunt Theresa (i.e. "bwa ha ha, you're so pitiful compared to my awesome strength").

I never made any argument that Rosemary was a weak ab. I was pointing out that her strength was dwarfed by abyssal class abs. These entities (Priscilla, Riful, Luciela, Alicia, Beth, and Isley) were specifically verified as abyssal class abs. Because Rosemary lacked such verification, the burden of proof that Rosemary is abyssal class lies with those who argue that she is. Now, I have pointed out a number of issues that make said case more difficult, but you still haven't proven that Rosemary was an abyssal class ab. As Rosemary came to realize that she, and not Theresa, was the one in a life or death situation, if Rosemary had more potential, she would have relied on it.

p.s. I'm pretty sure I saw Rosemary do more than slam Theresa into the ground :D.

HegemonKhan
February 07, 2010, 02:50 AM
well..

the argument i have for rosemary is the only one there is as indeed the manga doesn't give hardly anything to go on (besides her looks, lol), that she is a rank 1, jsut like ALL the others:

1. isley=rank 1= abyssal one
2. riful=rank 1 = abyssal one
3. luciela =rank 1 = abyssal one

4. Alicia= rank 1 = abyssal one (fought ~nearly equally against Riful)

5. teresa=rank 1 = beyond abyssal ones
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6. Priscilla = rank "2" = beyond abyssal ones

from power, clearly priscilla was a rank 1, becoming not just an abyssal one, but rather a beyond abyssal one, like teresa. the awakened priscilla that is top (female dog) that we know so well now in these last chapters.

but, let me explain why priscilla WAS rank 1 in title, despite the Organization giving her rank 2.

for some reason i won't ever understand, teresa kept rank 1, even though she was a traitor. this meant priscilla had to be rank 2 and which lowered irene, sophia, noel, and elda 's ranks down 1.

also, irene WAS rank 2, and priscilla was more powerful then her, which makes her a rank 1. the problem was that for unknown reason to me, traitor teresa, kept her rank 1 status, even as the Organization was trying to hunt her down and execute her. makes no sense at all to me.

if teresa wasn't "there":

priscilla= rank 1
irene=rank 2
sophia=rank 3
noel=rank 4
elda=rank 5

i guess, they wanted the "closure" of teresa's death, before they officially give priscilla her rank 1 status. this is the only thing i can come up with as why priscilla wasn't automatically given the rank 1 status that she was and why teresa's wasn't stripped away from her rank 1 status even as she was being hunted down for execution.
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7 and 8. Rafaela and Beth. rank 2's. =abyssal ones

Beth:

We have seen recently, that rank 2 Beth was indeed equal to rank 1 Alicia. This is explained by them being sisters, equal in power to each other. of course you can't have two rank 1's. so this meant one of them had to be given rank 2, which happened to be Beth. We see Alicia fighting ~ equal footing with Riful (maybe better then Riful or slightly worse then riful. judgement call, but it can't be argued that they are close to being equal to each other). While, we never get to see Beth (actually fight, dodging Dauf's attacks doesn't count) against the "unholy 3" AOs, and Priscilla doesn't work either, because she's far beyond the "unholy 3" AOs. Beth did fight equally well as alicia did against priscilla. all of this seems to suggest to me that alicia and beth are equal in power, both are rank 1's and ~equal to the power of the "unholy 3" AOs.

Rafaela:

Like Beth, she is a sister, and not just any sister, but sister to the "unholy 3" AO Luciela. While we never see Rafaela fight against the "unholy 3" AOs (crushing human form exhausted Luciela to death doesn't count), Rubel comments that she IS equal in power to her "unholy 3" AO sister Luciela. Taking the fact they are sisters like alicia and beth, and Rubel saying it to us, Rafaela must also be a rank 1 in power and as rubel says, EQUAL, to her "unholy 3" AO sister Luciela, putting her directly along with the "unholy 3" AOs. like with alicia and beth, there can't be two rank 1's, so it was rafaela whom got the rank 2 spot.
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9. Miata. "rank 4". =abyssal ones (or beyond abyssal ones with more time and training and maturity)

the manga has stated and shown Miata as a rank 1 in power.

so, then why in the world was Miata given her rank 4 status?

she's young, inexperienced, immature, and childish/un-minding/dis-obedient/UN-WEENED (lol)/any other issues she has.

she's simply literally a child (or maybe i should say, baby as she is UN-WEENED). despite her incredible power and her incredible instinct, allowing her to fight extremely well, she could be even more formable then priscilla, and even maybe teresa, if she grows up and matures, and learns experience in combat along with her incredible natural instinct.

it is miata, whom truly has the potential and latent poweres to exceed teresa, NOT priscilla.

quite frankly, Miata is far too over-looked by most people, Miata is truly the one, whom is able to surpass Teresa, NOT priscilla. It is Miata whom should have gone for Teresa's head, after she grown up and matured and gained combat experience.

Priscilla is the phony/fake/fraud/failure.

Miata is the real thing. Miata is the real Claymore capable of being Teresa's successor.

Awakened Priscilla is the FAILURE. Awakened Miata is the SUCCESS. AND that is SCARY!

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so, as can be seen, all of these Claymores i've pointed out, are rank 1's AND are ~EQUAL to the AO LEVELS of Isley, Riful, and Luciela.

thus, rosemary, whom is also a rank 1, in my reasoning, must be ~ the AO level calibur of Isley/Riful/Luciela as well, just like all the rest of the rank 1's are.

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p.s.

if you want, i'm certainly willing to concede to/with this:

most powerful AOs

1. Teresa and Priscilla
2. Isley, Riful, and Luciela
3. Alicia, Beth, Rafaela, and Rosemary
4. ~Miata, ~Clare, and ~Miria

least powerful AOs

OR

most powerful AOs

1. Teresa and Priscilla
2. Isley, Riful, and Luciela
3. Alicia and Beth
4. Rafaela, Rosemary, ~Miata, ~Clare, and ~Miria

least powerful AOs

liu_hao_chen@hotma
February 07, 2010, 10:28 AM
Had Rosemary started the battle without insisting on a fight in which she posed as a claymore, I'd agree that she might have been holding back after she revealed her true form. However, we know that she had already satisfied her desire to "fool with" Theresa in this "claymore" fight. After revealing her form, Rosemary would have been going all out against Theresa. She thought that her best would overwhelm Theresa, which would put her in a position to further taunt Theresa (i.e. "bwa ha ha, you're so pitiful compared to my awesome strength").
Well, the fact here is, Even if she go all out with Theresa, there probably will not be much difference because Theresa completely outclassed her. In addition, Rosemary has always been underestimating Theresa's strength ( Just read the manga yourself), until teresa has unleashed her Yoma power, which probably shocked her completely. This definitely contributed to how easily she was slayed by Theresa ( apart from being outclassed in power). This shock she received probably stunned her and prevented her from taking the necessary precaution.

I never made any argument that Rosemary was a weak ab. I was pointing out that her strength was dwarfed by abyssal class abs. These entities (Priscilla, Riful, Luciela, Alicia, Beth, and Isley) were specifically verified as abyssal class abs. Because Rosemary lacked such verification, the burden of proof that Rosemary is abyssal class lies with those who argue that she is. Now, I have pointed out a number of issues that make said case more difficult, but you still haven't proven that Rosemary was an abyssal class ab. As Rosemary came to realize that she, and not Theresa, was the one in a life or death situation, if Rosemary had more potential, she would have relied on it.
Well, Rosemary is probably capable of being at abyssal standard. She has held her position of NO 1 for very long until teresa made her appearance. As someone said before, this meant that irene( who was very powerful ), didnt stand a chance against her until someone as imbalanced as Theresa appears ( anyone will be demoted with the presense of Theresa so just because she was demoted by Theresa's presense do not imply that she lacks ABS calibre). What are abyssal ones? They are former NO 1 who has awakened and the organisation are aware of it. In generations of Riful, Lucelia and Easely there probably isnt an existence of someone with Theresa's calibre to actually kill an awakened abyssal one without awakening herself. Thats why these abysal being's existed. However for Rosemary's case, there is the presense of Theresa who killed her before she could roam.( the organisation didnt even know that she awakened) thus did not name her as an abyssal ones because by right she hasnt awaken. Regarding Rosemary's 'poor perception' of claymores potential is also quite a weak arguement. Abyssal being just needed the strength but not the ability to judge others accurately. Easely himself have misjudged priscilla a few times. First by sending Rigaldo, thinking that he will be suffice to defeat priscilla. Secondly by challenging priscilla himself, only to realise that he is not her match when she instantly destoryed half of his body. Riful knew that priscilla overpowers her based on Easley's attitude despite nearing his death. Rafella did not sensed that theresa had ABS ability (Since when did she) She was just surpsied at how theresa was able to sense her presense despite her surpressing her yoki to fullest. We have all belittled rosemary's power just because she was killed easily by teresa. But the fact that Rosemary was killed by teresa without any effort doesnt not justify that she do not deserve the ABS status. I wouldnt be surprised if Riful and Easely to be slayed just as easily because Theresa is just overwhelmingly powerful. And you have to realise that the theresa we've seen fighting with Priscilla isnt even at her full potential ( She was showing mercy all along, unlike priscilla who focused her thought on killing theresa), but this wasnt the case when she faught with rosemary. This can be justified by Irene, who said that Theresa's skills as a worrior DETERIORated after being with clare as she softened. Regarding her body structure or special features to 'qualify' as an abyssal one is even more invalid. Yes, it is true that Easley, Riful and Lucelia had special features, there isnt even enough time for ROsemary to display her skills because the fight ended too fast. In addition, even if Rosemry do not have one special structure wont prevent her from having abs status. Whats the best example of this? Its the one you are arguing for, Priscilla. Does she have any special feature except extending her fingers, having wings and a horn? Any ABs would probably be able to posses this abilitys but Priscilla is Beyond ABS standard.
Now back to the main argument. Who is actually more powerful?
I don't even see a point in arguing over this. Theresa is OBVIOUSLY superior. Since you do not want to discuss about potential, we shall not do so as it is hard to justify who has bigger potential.
You're first arguement was: Theresa probably will not be able to release beyond 10% of her power. Now... this is quite ridiculous. Find evidence for me of any worrior who is unable to do so. How to release one's Yoki is one of the most important and basic training a claymore will receive, do you think Theresa will probably forget it? Theresa once said to priscilla ( as we fight and experience, we slowing grasp our limit), this imply that theresa probably went through the same experience of testing out her own limit and it is ridiculous to think that her limit is at 10%? Just because she do not release yoki often does not mean that she cannot. Galatea is another claymore who hardly release her yoki beyond 10% as it oppose her 'beauty policy' but does it mean that she cant do it if she had to? NO. She was able to release beyong 30% in the fight with dauf. This proof that if teresa had to do it, she definitely would be able to. You claimed that it is an inductive conclusion,ill say that its a slippery slope assumption. Theresa probably doesnt even mean what she say as 'Forgetting how to do it', shes probably joking and at the time furthue emphasize the fact that she does not rely on Yoki to dominate.
And you said that Theresa will probably not go berserk and go 'Beyond 30%' of her limit. WEll teresa herself said that at 70%, we reach our limit ( implies that its probably her limit as well), just reaching 30% is far from losing herself. SO why didnt Theresa do so then? Firstly, she didnt really need to and secondly, she didnt expect Priscilla to play dirty. If you really must blame, just blame tht she got kinder and softer due to clare but not her power being weaker.
Secondly, the nature of their ability makes priscilla impossible to defeat Theresa. When is the time where teresa had the biggest problem with dealing with priscilla? Its when 1) She fully hide her Yoki, 2) She release too much yoki that her speed and strength outmatch teresa.
The former is not an issue, since priscilla is not Teresa's match with no Yoki release ( regardless of their potential) Because teresa can simply release her yoki to defeat priscilla if priscilla doesnt. 2) As we seen from the fight between them, Priscilla's speed at 80% do not even outmatch teresa's at 10%, infact teresa is even stronger. Even beyond 80%, the fact that teresa isnt knocked back by priscilla's strength implies that their strength probably equal at that point. And the fact that Teresa's power increases exponentially with yoki release, she can undoubtly deafeat priscilla at 30% realease if she fight as seriously as Priscilla at 100%. IF we even bother to include Theresa's unparralled ability to predict yoki, which is the main reason of her power, the more priscilla release yoki, the easier theresa can read. Of course, you will argue that priscilla probably released too much yoki for theresa to read. But that problem can be overcomed with teresa releasing yoki herself, which is justified in the show when she released 10% yoki, she could use her ability again to read 80% priscilla's yoki. DO you think that a 30% release of yoki is insufficient for her to read 100% priscilla yoki?We dont even have to discuss about if both awaken who will be stronger as thats too obvious.
[hr]
Im really sorry about this but due to the nature of this manga and Theresa's ability, she is undoubtly invincible even to miata unless someone surpasses Theresa's unparalleled ability to sense Yoma ( is it even possible? )
Down to pure combat skills - Teresa is already the most powerful(At the moment), i dont think we need to argue about this?
Base on the current situation and power of claymore characters, Theresa is still the invincible.
Ok, what if One day someone, be it miata or priscilla(Did not awaken) surpasses Theresa in basic combat skills( Taking into consideration that Theresa do not continue sharpening her skills and they are able to hunt her down), then they will be able to defeat Theresa at 0% release. Theresa will then release her power and outclass both of them. Then the game is set. Once they release their Yoki, they will not be able match to Theresa's unparalleled ability to sense Yoki. Unless they severely outclass theresa in terms of strength and speed which i dont think is possible since Theresa's calibre is already at the top. This will probably require the creation of a being that is much stronger than Theresa and i mean much.( even if priscilla and Miata do surpass Theresa , it will be barely but not much) And it probably will require an extremely long training which by then, any claymore would have died ( The organisation wont allow any claymore to stay alive for too long).
However, if u are talking abt who will even stand a chance to behand theresa, i would say that this person is Miata. By the time they can enhance their skills to even match theresa's combat skills, theresa's scent will probably have vanished hence its unlikely for priscilla to find her.

HegemonKhan
February 07, 2010, 03:41 PM
wonderful post, though i like it because i agree with it. laughs
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my reasoning for saying Miata is the only one whom has a chance against Teresa, is because:

Miata is the ONLY one whom has an ability to match Teresa's Faint Smile ability. Miata's natural instinct. It has the same effect as Teresa's Faint Smile ability. In fact, Miata's natural instinct is superior to Teresa's Faint Smile. The Faint Smile ONLY works when yoki is released. Miata's natural instinct ALWAYS works, yoki released or not. *If* Miata could learn/train to match Teresa's expert-flawless-perfect combat experience/skills, and *if* Miata is powerful enough, her natural instinct will put her superior to Teresa.


Clare is the only other one, whom can surpass/match Teresa, because she has the same Faint Smile ability, as Teresa's. In fact, she HAS TERESA and Teresa's+Clare's Faint Smile ability, lol.

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all priscilla has is her raw power, which allows her to easily and often regenerate the grave/fatal damage done to her, which currently no one can match. But, priscilla has nothing else. no godly Faint Smile ability. That's apparent, laughs, priscilla gets CENSORED up in her battles, she can't avoid taking damage at all. The ONLY reason Priscilla is still alive is because of her vast power enabling her to regenerate all the fatal damage done to her, which she fails over and over again to prevent.

Goral
February 09, 2010, 12:00 PM
My theory may be an example of inductive reasoning, thereby having natural weaknesses, but that hardly makes it baseless. (...) Now then, inductively concluding that Theresa's personal limit was 10% release (or if you prefer, below 30%) is not a grandiose leap.
Of course it is a big lap. What you did can hardly be considered as "inductive reasoning". Like I said, going by your line of thought Yuma can't awaken either. We could also say that because we haven't seen Priscilla in awakened form after so many years she forgot how to change.
1) (argument about 10% being the limit of Teresa just because she didn't use more youki) It doesn't mean anything except that Teresa was very powerful.
2) (argument about what Teresa said to Rosemary) You're interpreting her words ridiculously
Why didn't Teresa release her youki while fighting four opponents at the same time? Why didn't she release it the moment Prisiclla went after her again and used more youki than before? Because she couldn't? She could easily defeat 80% Prisicilla while releasing only 10% of her youki so why would she need an overkill? Your reasoning is too far-fetched.
Inductive reasoning would be if there was a claymore that couldn't awaken and you would assume that Teresa was like that also.


Please, if you can find an example of a claymore's awakening being a purely rational decision on the claymore's part, provide it. (...)
I don' see how it's relevant to what I've written or our discussion. I can give examples (Alicia, Luciella, Clare) but since it has nothing to do with Teresa I don't see the point. Well, you could successfully argue that it wasn't purely rational decision on claymore's part (Alicia had hardly the ability to make rational decisions by herself and Clare was agitated although she got what she wanted) but both cases show that it's not hard to awaken and you don't have to go berserk for that which proves my point.


Eh, I don't know why you're talking about the awakened Priscilla fighting in human form, especially when you would subsequently tell me not to use Clare as evidence because she is "special" (the fact of the matter is, Clare is closer to being a claymore than Priscilla is). Priscilla's a fully awakened being. As such, she can nigh fully access her potential at any moment. How much of this potential she accesses is ultimately her choice because she has nigh full access to it. (...)
I see that bolding my sentence is not enough. You don't send whole regiment to kill one guy. That would be plainly stupid. That's one of the reasons Teresa didn't release more youki (since she could easily deal with Priscilla as she was why bother and increase power?). Priscilla also, she didn't need her awakened form to deal with Riful, Alicia, Beth or Clare so she didn't awaken. In other words, Priscilla didn't asssume her more powerful awakened form because her human form was powerful enough to deal with any obstacles. Teresa at 10% was enough to defeat Priscilla at 80% (plus she could only become closer to awakening if she did) so she didn't overkill either. In Teresa's case it was even more rational to not use more power than it was in Priscilla's case and yet Priscilla's case is not strange to you but Teresa's case is.
Anyway, I agree that Priscilla has access to full power but not in human form. We know that after Clare cut Riful she unwillingly assumed her awakened form due to youki leakage which human form couldn't stand. After that Clare said "so this is the power of an abyssal" she clearly sensed difference in power before and after Riful devastated the environment. It wasn't only ribbons ability that made her think that (after all she saw how easily she could stop Jean earlier). Even Riful herself said she wanted to end all this before things escalated because "she doesn't like her power being measured", i.e. it was easier to measure her power in that form. So taking all of this into account I think that in human form even if they want to they can't leak as much youki as they can in their awakened form. In claymore form they can use over 70% of their powers and still be in human forms, in awakened form they can't. If they want to fight at full power they have to awaken.
That's why Isley changed to his horse form when he was fighting ZACS (it would be much easier for him to fight off ZACS if they weren't all over him because he was so big but clearly advantages of awakened form outweighed disadvantages and staying in smaller, human form wasn't an option). That's why Isley and Luciella didn't want to change their forms at first.
In short, if Priscilla wanted to she could awaken and deal with obstacles even easier but it would be unnecessary so she didn't just like Teresa did.


Finally, I will have you note that I am examining personal limits. As I have repeatedly brought up in my posts, this is not a matter of what is possible, but what is likely. That is, it is possible for Theresa (or any other claymore) to go to 30%/beyond, but it was unlikely that Theresa would go berserk and thus satisfy the conditions for her to release to 30%/beyond. Similarly, it is possible that Clare will fully awaken (we damn near witnessed this in Pieta), but it is unlikely when we compare her current mental state with her mental state when Rigardo was eliminating the buffer force.
Alicia's and Luciella's examples show that for awakening one doesn't have to be berserk. Clare's example shows that one can bring out more power at will (she wanted speed she got it and overwhelmed Rigardo). Jean's example shows that pain can trigger awakening also. In other words Teresa could awaken really easily if she wanted and needed to. Since she didn't want nor need she didn't. Simple as that. We have all the reasons to think that Teresa could go over the limit and absolutely none (besides your opinion) that she couldn't. In fact, as I've written earlier, Teresa indirectly said that she learned about the limits of her power (in Teresa's case it would be probably better to say lack of limits) thus she admitted that she released more power. She also knew everything about stages of awakening, 10%, 30%, and 80%, knew the theory behind it. And all her talk to Rosemary says is that she doesn't release her youki often.

Nice post liu_hao_chen@hotma. Thanks to you I don't have to repeat myself again about Rosemary (although I might add sth later just for fun).

dyc523
February 10, 2010, 12:48 AM
Well all I have to say is that the question was "Teresa vs Priscilla"
So simply
Teresa 10% > Priscilla 10%
Teresa 20% > Priscilla 20%
Ect Ect

If Teresa was 80% while Priscilla 80% no doubt Priscilla would be dead
But Teresa wouldn't even have to go 80% to kill Priscilla at 100%

Fact is Teresa is dead and it was because she was caught off guard but if Teresa and Priscilla evenly paired their yoki no doubt Teresa would win

HegemonKhan
February 10, 2010, 01:01 AM
Teresa actually won over and over again against not just Priscilla, but also even a 4v1 of Priscilla, Irene/Ilena, Sophia, and Noel vs Teresa. And, her yoki was drastically less then Priscilla's every time, except the first time (where they both were using NO yoki).

Imagine if Teresa released her yoki to your 80%..... BLACKHOLE of OBLIVION! Her yoki aura alone would crush everything around it. hehe. Zaraki Kenpachi's (or Ichigo or Aizen) very big "sister", laughs.


the "real" reason why Teresa never goes over 10% yoki:

She'd destroy the entire world of Claymore from her yoki aura alone!

melvo 17
February 15, 2010, 02:28 PM
as mush as i like priscilla.teresa would win.teresa could match an abyssal one by using 10% of her yoma power. 20% or more she could kill one with no problem. she used 10% of her yoma power against a half awakened 80% yoma power priscilla and won.so ya teresa would win

Mushashi
February 19, 2010, 04:43 AM
on what information do you base this on melvo? priscilla was pretty epic in the original clash againset teresa of the feint. that was when she was a total newbie. after turning abyssal one and like 10 years of experience killing noobs and eating guts. teresa would get owned. just like pris owned her in volume 4.

liu_hao_chen@hotma
February 20, 2010, 10:54 AM
Lol, why do some people keep reposting points that have been repeated over a million times. They should at least read the previous posts. 10 years of experience of 'killing noobs and eating guts'. This analogy is analogus to saying that an professional sportsman could improve himself dramatically just by playing with newbs. Is that really the case? I don't think so.
The organisation has claimed that when priscilla has awoken, she is at her full potential, meaning that she will NOT get any stronger over years. Come to think about it, NON of the awakened beings got any stronger over the years, this probably will explain this. If not, riful easely and lucelia will be invincible after SO many years of experience. But as you can see, they did not. This sorta hint that once a claymore awaken, she cant get any stronger.

Not to mention what the outcome will be if teresa had not wasted her 10 years away as its obvious that teresa will be stronger. What if teresa wasted her 10 years away? Priscilla would not even be able to find her. Furthur more, the organisation has constantly be underestimating teresa by far, it is very likely that their estimation of teresa vs priscilla potential is wrong.
Pris pwned her in volume 4? omg, please read previous posts before making any comments, if you consider playing dirty tricks, exploiting other's compassion and sympathy by sneak attacking as owning someone by power, then im speechless.

HegemonKhan
February 20, 2010, 01:07 PM
liu_hao_chen hits upon a point which I use for a theory I have.


like liu said, no awakened (even the 3 AOs, Isley, Riful, and Luciela), has gotten stronger. Also, like liu said, if they had, they'd be even more powerful then Priscilla. Isley has been awakened for the longest at ~100 years, he should be like Teresa, a god, but he isn't. He got pwned by Priscilla whom hadn't even been awakened for even a year.

Not even Priscilla has seen to have gotten stronger. She was just playing around when she awakened with Ilena, Sophia, and Noel because they weren't even rank 1s. We then see her have the same ease against Rigardo and Isley, as she does against Alicia and Beth. Riful and Dauf don't count because they were nearly dead/powerless already. The only thing that we can claim/say about Priscilla improving is that she simply learned about herself as an awakened, she learned her new powers and abilities, compared to when she awakened and played with Ilena, Sophia, and Noel.

The Destroyer was described as getting more powerful by Riful, saying how each passing moment it was getting stronger. However, the Destroyer was literally/physically still growing/awakening, so that makes sense.

We have to wait and see if the Destroyer has stopped growing/getting more powerful. I personally think it has stopped, I mean if it really was still getting more powerful, Priscilla wouldn't be fooling around letting the Destroyer become more powerful then her.

anyways, my theory is that:

for whatever reason, the yoma mind of awakeneds, prevents them from improving and becoming more powerful. whereas, the human mind of Claymores or Half Awakens allows them to improve and become stronger. We see evidence with this in Miria and Clare over their numerous battles. We also see evidence in this through the 7 years of training with all 7 of the Ghosts, 4 Half Awakens and 3 Claymores.

This is thus what makes Half Awakens so special. They can keep improving and becoming more powerful while at the same time able to use their awakened powers and abilities. Claymores however are limited in using their awakened powers and abilities, because they can't resist awakening or they risk awakening.

So, this is would be Priscilla's weakness. Yes, Priscilla is a very very very powerful awakened, however, she is stuck at that power level, whereas, Clare (or Teresa if she was alive or Miata) isn't. With time, Clare, definately can/would surpass Priscilla.

The question is (which might be revealed in chapter 101), can Clare take on Priscilla now/currently or not? But first, she has to figure out this new complication with her awakening, hehe.

Goral
February 20, 2010, 01:26 PM
@liu_hao_chen@hotma
Yup. I've been saying this for over two years already, here (http://forums.animesuki.com/showthread.php?p=1271975#post1271975), here (http://forums.animesuki.com/showthread.php?p=1272758#post1272758) or more recently here (http://forums.animesuki.com/showthread.php?p=2803370#post2803370). In the thread "how could Teresa stop the quicksword (http://mangahelpers.com/forum/showthread.php?p=1556311#post1556311)" I've provided links to some of my posts about Priscilla vs. Teresa and if anyone would want to argue that Teresa was stronger than Priscilla he should read this post (http://forums.animesuki.com/showthread.php?p=2571444#post2571444) first. The discussion is going for like 10 pages and ends about here (http://forums.animesuki.com/showthread.php?p=2590813#post2590813). Every possibility is considered. You will also find there a link to a post where I've compiled some of the common mistakes people make when they interpret Priscilla's and Teresa's fight although these are not all arguments I came up with and to read all of them you would have to dig through many pages starting from this post (http://forums.animesuki.com/showthread.php?p=2571444#post2571444).

If you read it you would have to agree that Teresa at 10% was stronger than 80% Priscilla and that there were no indications that awakened Priscilla would be stronger than Teresa at let's say 30%.
Some new arguments I came up with were for example that we've had explicit evidence how much stronger Teresa had become after she released her youki since she easily repelled Priscilla's attack. Comparison of Irene's attack and Priscilla's attack (http://forums.animesuki.com/showthread.php?p=2580648#post2580648) shows that. Moreover, it came to me that Teresa was twisting her head every time someone was attacking from behind, i.e. PYS didn't help her that much (and it was strange she wasted time on that). That's not all of course but you would have to dig through walls of text to see it.


(...)
for whatever reason, the yoma mind of awakeneds, prevents them from improving and becoming more powerful. whereas, the human mind of Claymores or Half Awakens allows them to improve and become stronger. We see evidence with this in Miria and Clare over their numerous battles. We also see evidence in this through the 7 years of training with all 7 of the Ghosts, 4 Half Awakens and 3 Claymores.

This is thus what makes Half Awakens so special. They can keep improving and becoming more powerful while at the same time able to use their awakened powers and abilities. Claymores however are limited in using their awakened powers and abilities, because they can't resist awakening or they risk awakening.

I don't see it as you do HegemonKhan. The reason Clare has gotten that much stronger is because she's grasping Teresa's power little by little but that just tells us she's using more and more of her youma powers. IMO she can't be stronger than her awakened form. Partial-awakening doesn't make one's potential better (at least we don't know that) and by potential I mean what one could become after awakening. We only know that by partial-awakening claymores become stronger and have more access to their youma powers and that's what's awesome. They can be human and have power of awakened beings but it's very likely that it wouldn't make much difference if they awakened immediately after becoming a claymore or 10 years later.
Partial awakening had much more effect on Clare's power-up than experience. We know thanks to Deneve that after many partial awakenings claymore has youki always at maximum limit. So it's not strange ghosts are much stronger. If you wanted to make a point you should have brought up Yuma. However this can be easily explained too. Training for 7 years with stronger (that's crucial) opponents with various techniques allowed Yuma (who hasn't partially awakened AFAWK but still got stronger) to improve so much. She could gradually fight more powerful opponents without a risk of being killed (or even injured) and learn techniques of more experienced colleagues. I would like to see her doing that while in actual combat. If she tried to learn during the fight instead of surviving the attack and ending the fight as quickly as possible she would be dead in no time. On the other hand if she fought an opponent much weaker than her she wouldn't learn much as I've written over two years ago here and here.

HegemonKhan
February 20, 2010, 06:50 PM
like i said it is only a theory of my own thus far.

partial awakening (being a Half Awaken) is mysterious as to what exactly it fully does or entails.

a list of what we know:

1. more powerful

evidence:

Clare has become greatly more powerful after being a Half Awaken. We see pre-HA Clare struggle, using lots of yoki (as seen in her body strain/contortions) for merely killing 1 to 3 normal yomas, especially to do the fatal attack/blow to them (cutting them in half). After Clare becomes an HA she is able to easily handle up to 4 yomas with ease, and even radiates a hidden aura/yoki, which Miria (already a HA herself) trembles in fear as it is the most powerful aura/yoki she has ever felt. Clare finalizes the evidence of her increased power by saving the 3 of them (miria, deneve, and helen) from the male AB, and seen onward to chapter 100.

2. able to use 80% yoki without the awakening process taking them over.

evidence:

Ophelia arc (Clare) and the Pieta battle (Deneve, and Helen and Miria and Clare). After the male AB battle, Deneve shows that she can use 80% yoki as she regenerates her fatal hole in her stomach, but she is shown in her awakening process (and resisting it). It takes until later when Clare and Deneve are shown to use 80% yoki without having to undergo and resist the awakening process.

3. able to use powers/abilities/techniques that require near 80% yoki more easily and at lower yoki levels.

evidence:

Clare learns (quickly) a lot of yoki high end powers/abilities/techniques and are able to do them at lower yoki levels. Pre-HA Clare could barely heal the hole in her stomach at maybe 30-50% yoki release. Afterward, she was able to do re-attachment. She's able to do the Quick Sword and Windcutter without being around 80% yoki. She's able to do the Windcutter with no yoki release. She's able to awaken her legs and shoulders/arms without undergoing the awakening process.

Miria is able to use her Phantom Step more often and with less strain on herself. She learns the Mirage Step, and learns to use it with no yoki release. Pre-HA Miria probably could barely do her Phantom Step and only near 80% yoki release.

Deneve is able to near instantaneously and fully regenerate with much less yoki and strain on herself. She also seems to have learned to bulk up her muscles/strength a bit like Undine without too much yoki use or strain. Pre-HA Deneve struggled to regenerate just her arm or her hole in her stomach and had to use near 80% yoki.

Helen is able to extend her arm at lower yoki release and with less strain on her. She is also able to do the Drill Sword with less yoki release and strain on herself. Pre-HA Helen could probably only extend her arm a few times and at near 80% yoki release.

Jean is able to do her Drill Sword at lower yoki levels and with less strain on herself. Pre-HA Jean could probably only do the Drill Sword a few times with a lot of strain on herself and at near 80% yoki release.

4. Deneve states that it feels as if her yoki or yoma power is flowing at full force.

this is a bit "Cryptic", as we don't exactly know what she means.

Is Deneve saying that she is releasing 100% yoki and not undergoing the awakening process?

Or, is she saying that at whatever her yoki release, it feels as if it has the full power as if she was using 100% yoki release? And if so, does this mean that her 100% yoki release would be giving off even more power, or no?


Something else that is a bit mysterious is the Quick Sword.

The Quick Sword requires 100% yoki being directed/focused/concentrated into the sword arm causing a berserker attack.

Ilena/Irene presumably was able to use 100% yoki for her Quick Sword use. Does this mean her arm was awakened and hence her leather covering to hide it? Or, does this mean that Ilena/Irene was able to use 100% yoki into her arm and keep it from awakening, while using the Quick Sword at the same time?

Another question is whether Ilena/Irene was able to control/direct her Quick Sword or not? We know Ilena/Irene could use the Quick Sword with ease, without having to struggle with keeping it from undergoing the awakening process in the rest of her body. But, we don't know if Ilena/Irene could control it or if she could only use it in its normal berserker fashion?


Clare, on the other hand, initially could not use 100% yoki release in her Quick Sword arm, as she "kept approaching her limit", unlike Ilene/Irene when she used the Quick Sword.

However, Clare was able to master the Quick Sword in only a short time later during her fight with Awakened Ophelia (with Ophelia's help/encouragement at the cost/sacrifice of her own life). Though, we don't know if Clare's Quick Sword even in chapter 100 is more powerful then Ilena's/Irene's. Sadly, we never know how powerful Ilena's/Irene's Quick Sword actually was.

Clare however also learned to be able to control/direct the Quick Sword, thanks to Galatea and Jean. Unfortunately, we don't know if Ilena/Irene could control/direct it as well or not. Maybe Ilena/Irene couldn't, and could only use it as its normal berserker fashion, whereas Clare could control/direct it, not in its berserker fashion. We just don't know. It depends if the Quick Sword, merely requires strong mental focus (which Ilena/Irene did have, and thus she'd be able to control/direct it too), or if it requires the Faint Smile (which Ilena/Irene doesn't ahve, and thus wouldn't be able to control/direct the Quick Sword, like Clare could).

anyways, if the Quick Sword requires 100% yoki, then there's no yoki left to be used for or to do anything else. Or, is there some other explanation/understanding of the Quick Sword's 100% yoki use that I am not understanding here?


Lastly, Clare's awakening of her legs and arms/shoulders, seems to be very similar to the Quick Sword's requirments, except instead of using the yoki to do and control/direct the Quick Sword, it is used to awaken her body parts, and like the Quick Sword, the awakening process of the rest of the body has to be resisted.

5. possible immunity to becoming an awakened, as seen in chapter 100 with Clare's awakening complication.

if being a HA is indeed the cause of this, then we don't yet know if this means HAs can never awaken again and possibly never have access to those powers/abilities, or if the HAs have full access to their awakened form's/body's abilities, while in their Claymore/human form/body.

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Goral, you might be forgetting this...

6. Riful states that by willfully/intentionally raising one's yoki (or awakening), they become more powerful, then they normally would be if the yoki is raised (or awakened) due to accident or out of control use (due to the pleasure/euphoria high of it, which the males and Helen fell "prey" to, well Helen somehow was able to "pull back" at the last moment, becoming an HA).

Evidence:

Witches Maw arc. this is where Riful makes this statement, and we see Clare indeed being quite powerful, superior to Galatea in fact (except in offensive cutting power/damage to Dauf, but Clare is physically stronger then Galatea as we see her stop and push/shove back Dauf's rod knocking him over, something Galatea never did even with her unique "Multiplier" yoki ability, being physically weaker then HA Clare).

This is my support/basis for my argument/theory, that not only are human-minded beings (Claymores and Half Awakens) able to improve and become more powerful, but in doing so, their awakening power level will be subsequently more powerful as well, since they are more powerful.

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P.S.

everything I stated above can been seen happening just from being HAs.


the 7 years training (the "Ghost Training", as I like to call it), allowed them to use some of their (new) high end abilities techniques at no yoki release. But everything else of the 4 HAs, is from being HAs, not from their "Ghost Training". The "Ghost Training" might have helped make them more powerful, but so did their being HAs as well. HA+"Ghost Training stacks together in terms of making them more powerful.

*Clare learned to do Flora's Windcutter at 0% yoki.
*Miria learned to do her new Mirage Step at 0% yoki.
*Cynthia could now enhance/aid in the healing/re-attaching/regeneration of others. Unclear if she could do this at 0% yoki or not.
*Tabatha now had her "Eye" powers as good as at least pre-7 years Galatea/Clare probably at 0% yoki.
*Yuma could now throw her sword like Chapter 2 Clare could at 0% yoki. (Clare in chapter 2 required yoki to do her sword throw).
*Helen could extend her arm at 0% yoki. (I'm not sure if her Drill Sword took yoki or not).
*Deneve could regenerate (non-extreme damage) at 0% yoki. (She also seems to have learned a bit of Undine's muscle bulking, at least to me, she looks a bit buffer/muscular, and she certainly has shown she is physically stronger).

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p.s.s.

as of right now, I don't wanna and don't have to believe that Clare has Teresa's power/yoki that she can/has been calling upon to help her.


I wanna think that all of Clare's power and improvement is hers (aside from Ilena's/Irene's arm at that initial time only), and not Teresa's.


the only thing remotely close is Clare imagining Teresa's "dancing" combat drills/movements/forms dreaming as Clare sleeps outside with her face in the mud as it rains through the rest of the night after she had sparred with Miria, before the 4 of them (Miria, Clare, Deneve, and Helen) will shortly battle the male AB. But, this is a far cry from evidence/proof or even suggestion that Teresa's power/yoki is inside Clare, for her to use.

This could simply be Clare merely remembering Teresa's fighting style/movements/forms/swordmanship as she watched memorizing as a human child.


yes, Clare's yoki has jumped from tiny to large to tiny, various times in the manga. But rather then thinking this is Teresa's power/yoki within Clare, I actually think it is merely Clare's yoki. A few characters' yoki haven't been open to being accurately read. Teresa's, Riful's, Rafaela's, Isley's, and Clare's. As can be seen, I simply think that Clare is good at hiding and surpressing her power and yoki. Clare's "weak/tiny" yoki is merely her small surface yoki which she failed to suppress. However, Clare has had a few lapses, revealing most of her yoki. Miria noticed it when she rushed to town with two unknown Claymores after cutting the yoma's head in half whom was after the girl running outside of town. Clare hadn't suppressed her yoki after killing the 4 yomas in town, and Miria felt it. Clare had to expose her yoki again against the male AB as she used her Faint Smile to dodge the male AB's attacks. So no, far from thinking this is Teresa's, I think it is Clare's. Clare herself is actually this powerful, but she rarely uses her power/yoki, and might have very well not known/realized just how powerful she really is.

Until the manga actually says/shows otherwise, I see no reason for thinking Teresa's power/yoki exists within Clare, helping her out and making her more powerful.


so we disagree on this.

melvo 17
February 28, 2010, 05:09 PM
woah woah woah.clare may have teresas flesh and blood and awakened but she gettin her ass kicked so easily by priscilla.priscila doesnt even need her awaken powers

SuperShuter
February 28, 2010, 08:08 PM
I couldn't botherd to read this thread so im sorry if im repeating what someone has said: it was claimed Priscila would once surpass Teresas Natural ability and from when Priscila was roaming after she defeated Teresa she probably became a lot stronger and surpassed Teresa. I think this is important to take into account because yes Teresa i belive could have without a doubt beat awakened Priscila at 50-80% even with taking into acount Priscila trashed everyone in a blink of an eye.

I think a fair comparison could be made from the top 2 Priscila fought and the top 4 Teresa fought because they were both probably using an equally low amount of their potentual. I think the top 2 awakened is a harder fight than top 4 semi awakened What do you guys think?

~.~
May 10, 2010, 03:23 PM
I couldn't botherd to read this thread so im sorry if im repeating what someone has said: it was claimed Priscila would once surpass Teresas Natural ability and from when Priscila was roaming after she defeated Teresa she probably became a lot stronger and surpassed Teresa. I think this is important to take into account because yes Teresa i belive could have without a doubt beat awakened Priscila at 50-80% even with taking into acount Priscila trashed everyone in a blink of an eye.

I think a fair comparison could be made from the top 2 Priscila fought and the top 4 Teresa fought because they were both probably using an equally low amount of their potentual. I think the top 2 awakened is a harder fight than top 4 semi awakened What do you guys think?

oh, I dont think it was claimed, i think it's just a possibility.
anyway, why do you assume that 80% and above Priscilla is stronger than 10% Teresa?

http://www.mangareader.net/485-29334-19/claymore/chapter-23.html

Page 19, please look at her eyes, they changed back to normal, so I think that the one 80% Priscilla killed is the 0% Teresa, am i wrong??? then you can only said that 80% Priscilla > 0% Teresa, right?? :confused:
Please confirm my thought, I'm confused

HegemonKhan
May 11, 2010, 03:41 AM
oh, I dont think it was claimed, i think it's just a possibility.
anyway, why do you assume that 80% and above Priscilla is stronger than 10% Teresa?

http://www.mangareader.net/485-29334-19/claymore/chapter-23.html

Page 19, please look at her eyes, they changed back to normal, so I think that the one 80% Priscilla killed is the 0% Teresa, am i wrong??? then you can only said that 80% Priscilla > 0% Teresa, right?? :confused:
Please confirm my thought, I'm confused


while, i'm not the poster (super stater) you quoted, i originally was the one whom used these percentages and math, which it seems some other people have agreed with these "equations", and have used them for their/your arguements too.


it does appear that even in the manga Teresa had actually turned her eyes back from golden/yellow (10% yoki) to silver (1-9% yoki).

the anime is clear on this, as it is in color.

but recently, it came to my attention that you CAN tell as well in the manga. obviously not by color (as the manga isn't in color), but by the iris of the eyes.

..............................................^
10% yoki = golden/yellow eyes = ( ) shaped iris (cat-snake like shaped iris)
..............................................V


1-9 % yoki = silver eyes = O shaped iris


so.... it does seem that Teresa was back at 1-9% yoki (silver eyes) when 80% Priscilla beheaded Teresa.


I think it is good to still include the min 70% range and while Teresa is at 10% yoki:

80% Priscilla / 10% Teresa = 8 = Teresa is 8 times more powerful then Priscilla

70% Priscilla / 10% Teresa = 7 = Teresa is 7 times more powerful then Priscilla

Teresa is 7 or 8 times more powerful then Priscilla


however, if you want to just apply the 80% and Teresa being at 1-9%, then go ahead:


80% Priscilla / 1% Teresa = 80 = errr.... this is actually too extreme... for even Teresa.... lol .... ya 80 times more powerful then Priscilla.... um no... Teresa's godly, but 80 times is something far beyond godly... lol

so, it is better to do this....

9% -> 10%

80% Priscilla / 10% Teresa = 8 = Teresa is 8 times more powerful then Priscilla


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the reason why we (I) say that 80% Priscilla > 1-10% or 1-9% Teresa


is because we see Teresa barely able to parry Priscilla's jumping sword slice, grimacing with effort.


10% Teresa PWNS 70-79% ("Orcish"-near Awakening) Priscilla, knocking Priscilla backwards through the air and on her bottom on the dirt ground.

Priscilla releases more yoki, hitting 80% or over it, but the Awakening process is delayed slightly. Priscilla uses this moment to jump up from sitting on the dirt ground and bring her sword down on Teresa. This is where/when we see Teresa barely able to parry Priscilla's attack, grimacing with effort.

Thus, I feel this means that Priscilla is probably a bit more powerful then Teresa, at these yoki amounts (10% Teresa and 80% or more Priscilla).

After this, is when the Awakening process "kicks in". Priscilla drops her sword, her muscles bulk up, ripping her clothes, and she starts crying and begging to be "killed as a human". The Awakening Process again halts in a delay.... (is Priscilla resisting it slightly?)

This is when Teresa lowers her yoki back to underneath 10% (causing her eyes to go back to silver from her golden/yellow eyes) to 1-9%, and lowers her "guard/caution/wariness", foolishly thinking that the fight is over....

This is then when we all know that Priscilla picks up her sword and cuts off Teresa's hands and then her head, killing her.

After the decapitation (death of Teresa), the Awakening Process "kicks in" again, this time in full to completion. Priscilla becomes the winged one horned demon Awakened. Kills Sophia and Noel, and nearly kills Irene. Then flies off north to feed, leaving only human Clare and unknown to both of them (Priscilla and Clare) Irene as still alive.

gnut
June 01, 2010, 03:46 PM
it was never explained of how many awakened beings teresa slayed,but her power was to read yoma energy.so the more priscilla used the easier it became to defeat her,she just let here guard down and unfortunately she doesn't get another shot at the belt,lol.thats why we got our girl claire to handle it!

HegemonKhan
June 01, 2010, 05:26 PM
for that matter, it almost seemed like no Claymore (excluding Teresa) of Teresa's Era had ever seen/encountered/fought/killed an Awakened Being. Look at even Irene's comment towards Priscilla's Awakening, ~"Nothing like a Claymore, nor like a normal yoma. Kasetsu! (forgive my attempt at spelling/hearing japanese, lol)". To me, this almost seems or does seem like Irene was seeing an Awakened for her very first time when Priscilla Awakened after killing Teresa!

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Teresa has certainly encountered Awakeneds before. Otherwise, you'd think she'd be afraid or stunned/shocked with Awakened Rosemary, like Irene (and Sophia, and Noel) seemed to be with Awakened Priscilla.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------

As to whether other Claymores (such as Irene, Sophia, Noel, Elda, and all the others) had ever encountered Awakeneds or not is unknown.

It could very well have been the policy of completely avoiding Awakeneds and making sure to kill Claymores before they Awaken, during this time, Teresa's Era, and probably before it as well. I say this because the Organization still kept it censored (hidden) from the Claymore's of Clare's Era that the "voracious eaters" were actually Awakeneds as well. Also, Teresa's Era was completely censored (hidden) from Clare's Era. Only a few Claymores (Clare, Irene, Miria, Alicia, Beth, Rafaela, and maybe Galatea) knew about Teresa's Era.

gnut
June 02, 2010, 04:36 PM
teresa's era had riful,isley and rafaela's sister.so they knew about awakens yeah i agree,my statement is teresa would have cut the bi#$%'s head off if she knew she had lost total control.she had gotten soft tending to claire,so she felt pity only because priscilla was so young even though she knew priscilla could surpass her in skill.

Lemonadez
June 04, 2010, 02:11 AM
Priscilla already surpassed Theresa in strength, agility & speed..

Even Theresa is slower than any of those #2/3/4/5. what make her the strongest among them because of ability to sense Yoma Aura is beyond than any Claymore group.

Other claymore couldn't even sense Priscila Yoki when she killed all those mobs in the alley.

Theresa can read the Strength and Speed of Yoma energy flowing through the body. Theresa can sense the opponent action before they even move.

That why Priscilla was the only person who was able to close to match Theresa because she completely fully supressed her Yoma energy.

But Too bad Priscilla would not be able to win at all because of awakening.

This is when Theresa like when using her ability to read the flow of Yoma energy
http://www.mangareader.net/485-29332-22/claymore/chapter-21.html

No one knew how much Theresa Yoma energy is, because when Priscilla is awakening at 80% http://www.mangareader.net/485-29334-1/claymore/chapter-23.html

Yet What make theresa still have upper hand. Using 10% of Yoma energy is enough to change eye color..
http://www.mangareader.net/485-29334-10/claymore/chapter-23.html

10% alone overpowered 80% awakening Priscila.

See when those 3 top claymore join and release their Yomi, Theresa just wtf pwned them with ease using her ability.

Theresa died because of the plot of the author.
Just think if Theresa actually uses full extent of her Yoma energy and uses ability to sense every flow of Yoma energy? How can they stop it... Its even beyond than Sharingan level LOL

You guys rely too much on POWER/STRENGTH/SPEED. But none of you ever been in battle field. In war/battle if the opponent know your next move/action, Basically You loose.

See look at Claire trying to use Theresa ability.
http://www.mangareader.net/485-29340-3/claymore/chapter-29.html

She's not even faster than male awakening. Yet she can dodge it by just reading the yoma energy.

See the reading flow of Yoma energy to know the opponent move required to supressed their own Yoma energy.
http://www.mangareader.net/485-29340-16/claymore/chapter-29.html

Claire hasnt even mastered it yet :P unlike Theresa she can use her ability while she's release of her Yoma energy. just how cool is dat :P

HegemonKhan
June 04, 2010, 03:00 AM
"......But none of you ever been in battle field. In war/battle if the opponent know your next move/action, Basically You loose." -Lemonadez


(some of) "The Science of War"

1. The ULTIMATE WEAPON is DECEPTION. If the opponent doesn't know what you're doing, the enemy is blind, and you've already won.

2. SPEED. Using an extreme example of speed difference, it is impossible for the faster one to lose. What good is strength/mass/power ("brawns") if you can't hit your opponent with it? ZERO good! What good is greater intelligence/strategy/tactics ("brains"), if your opponent is fast enough to escape your set ambushes or feints? ZERO good. SPEED wins over "brains" and/or "brawns" every time. A slower opponent is a helpless dead opponent, even if they are stronger and smarter then you. As the faster one, you can't be caught, you can't be hit, you can't be defeated. It is all about SPEED.

3. "Hit first. Hit fast. Hit hard. Hit their weakest spot. Hit last." -(many sources/quoters)

Lemonadez
June 04, 2010, 10:07 AM
1.) There is no nuclear bomb in claymore. every fight in claymore is a Head on battle face to face.

2.) Speed doesn't mean anything in claymore. No one in claymore have ever been stated they move fast as Superman that travel in speed of light. Their speed increase by amount of Yoma energy they released. Just like how clare fighting the awaken male, in Claymore Speed is based on Split Seconds. That why Clare who doesn't have speed can dodge the attack in a split seconds by using Theresa ability to read the flow of yoma energy.

3.) LoL that only works for those who cant read Yoma energy.. Because even the others who can read Yoma energy even they arent fast enoug to move they can dodge it before it hit em..

Again speed in claymore increase by the amount of Yoma energy they have to release and that why when they run out of energy they're movement become slow. Just like how Phantom Miria using her Old Mirage that uses too much Yoma energy, She eventually become slower if her Yoma energy run out.

LOL GG There is no UNLIMITED YOMA ENERGY in Claymore. This isn't DBZ. They become weak if they run out of Yoma energy. That why those awaken eat guts to power up lol.

Throw 100x Supressing Yoma Beans in their mouth. and that will make them powerless, and not be able to use Yoma energy.. Cant be awaken Oh Yah! LoL

Just 1x of half supressing beans can decrease their yoma to 50%.. imagine with 1000% from 100x beans of their yoma being supressed lol

lol 1x Full bean is enough to seal their Yoma energy 100% :P dat mighty SenZu bean for ya LoL

in the battle of north if those nublet didn't take any supressing bean the outcome would be different :P. 50% of their energy is sealed lol :P against a 100% and awaken lion king mofasa..

HegemonKhan
June 04, 2010, 03:11 PM
there's been some cases where there's been a speed difference and it made a difference:

1. Rigardo by just his speed alone is able to pwn the 24 Claymores in Pieta battle

2. Partially Awakened Clare with her new legs becomes even faster then Rigardo and is able to defeat him.

3. Riful using her speed to catch Renee. (non-combat reference though obviously)

4. the AFs/AEs speed to quickly go to the Org HQs, get new "recruits", and come back to their target (Isley), before he could regenerate himself.

5. (not sure about this) Awakened Priscilla's speed enables her to dodge the Destroyer's "black oil tentacles of hell-bodies/souls" which steal life force of any living thing they touch.

(Or, Priscilla's yoki/yoma power is so powerful that she can't be effected, have her life force stolen by it, like with the Destroyer's hell-cats' small projectiles)

6. Miria's Phantom and Mirage Steps' speed boost have kept her alive and winning many of her battles.

7. Isley had a greater speed advantage then Rigardo, despite Isley's large centaur Awakened body.

About yoki:

1. You're right, yoki, which does/allows everything, is limited.

However, at the moment, only, Priscilla seems to have an unlimited amount of yoki (or at least such a massive amount it seems as though it's unlimited).

2. Though, we must include the Destroyer at this point as well, lol. Though, we still don't know too much about it and how much yoki and yoma power it has.


about the Yoki Suppression Pills (YSPs):

1. you're wrong about them.

by only taking half of the pill, a Claymore keeps their full abilities and power, including yoki sensing.

However, once they are unconscious, the YSPs keeps their yoki suppressed at near zero yoki, thus causing anyone sensing their yoki to think that they are dead, and not merely just unconscious.

Lemonadez
June 09, 2010, 06:11 AM
1. Rigardo by just his speed alone is able to pwn the 24 Claymores in Pieta battle

For your information that battle, Rigardo went release and those 24 claymore took a Pills that supress their Yoma Chakra into half. Read along the chapter dude. When they awaken the amount of their speed increase.

2. Partially Awakened Clare with her new legs becomes even faster then Rigardo and is able to defeat him.

Like I fuking said again, when they awaken they speed increase. Dude look IN ORDER to become awaken they release huge amount of YOMA energy go read it in Manga, they will tell you that their yoma energy increase as they release.

3. Riful using her speed to catch Renee. (non-combat reference though obviously)
LoL Riful whos former #1.

5. (not sure about this) Awakened Priscilla's speed enables her to dodge the Destroyer's "black oil tentacles of hell-bodies/souls" which steal life force of any living thing they touch.

Of course her speed enable her to dodge it Nub. Like I said the awaken form increase their speed due to their Yoma energy is so huge.

6. Miria's Phantom and Mirage Steps' speed boost have kept her alive and winning many of her battles.

Look dude Old Mirage Step was even faster than New Mirage Step. The old Mirage Step uses too much Yoma Energy and Limited of usage. She wasn't able to use the Old Mirage bcuz she run out of Yoma energy against the battle of Rigaldo.

The Yoma Pills keep their abilities duh. But it doesn't make them use it full power. Let say Miria using her abilities did not last against Rigaldo because half or her Yoma energy are sealed..unlike the first male they encountered Miria able to use 30x clare counted it

sorostaran
July 05, 2010, 12:19 PM
The intent of the author was quite obvious. Yagi went to great lengths to illustrate that Tereas is as much beyond Priscilla as Priscilla is beyond the Abyssal Ones, if not more. At 10% release, Teresa with a one-handed grip was able to knock a ~80% release Priscilla with a two-handed grip back on her buttocks effortlessly. Teresa then tells Priscilla that that ought to make it clear (that Priscilla ought to give up and suppress her yoki since she is obviously way outclassed and has no chance of winning).

At this point, to illustrate that ~80% Priscilla has no chance against 10% Teresa, Yagi has ~80% Priscilla ambush 10% Teresa with a surprise attack, which 10% Teresa parried even though she was taken by surprise. With her last hope (attacking by surprise) crushed, Priscilla collapsed and begged to be put out of her misery. Yagi then devoted half a page to a Teresa headshot (complete with power down sound effect) to make it indubitable that Teresa has powered down, before Priscilla was able to execute the fatal surprise attack.

Tenacious Weezy
July 05, 2010, 09:02 PM
Awakened Priscilla is not just 20% more power than 80% Priscilla. Take into account regenerative abilities which thus far have shown to be almost limitless (until recently) and the fact that when she eats human or yoma-beings she gains more power. Teresa is amazing and I'm sure at 20-40% she could have taken out all of the abysmal ones but Awakened (truly awakened) Priscilla has toyed with and taken down more complete opponents (in terms of ability beyond a sword and regenerative powers). Teresa's ability to sense yoki flow would be pointless if she has to power-up so much herself also Priscillas fingers attack could easily surround her.

HegemonKhan
July 06, 2010, 05:21 AM
NO yoki release Claymore Teresa ripped off Awakened rank 1 (aka Abyssal One) Rosemary's Awakened arm like it was nothing, and most certainly have continued to do the same to the rest of Awakened rank 1 (aka Abyssal One) Rosemary's Awakened body as well, if Teresa didn't use the opportunity to use 10% yoki release, as she almost never gets to do so.

NO yoki release Teresa can tear to shreds Abyssal Ones, like she did to Rosemary's arm, with her bare hands. That's how powerful Teresa is. Miata was shown able to do the same but only to normal yomas and ABs, being weaker then Teresa. The manga intentionally showed these two to have this raw brute strength, which represents just how powerful they are. There is Rafaela too, but I'll ignore her as it is more debatable with her as Abyssal One Luciela was in her human form when Rafaela crushed her back, killing her. Priscilla was always shown using her sword. Maybe she had the power to use her hands, but the manga never showed this, whereas it DID show this with Teresa and Miata. So, it might very well be that Priscilla didn't have this power level that Miata and Teresa has/had.

With that 10% yoki release by Teresa, Teresa slices Awakened rank 1 (aka Abyssal One) Rosemary into pieces in a single attack instantly.

So, 30% (or if this is just too low some people, then 50%) yoki release is probably enough to CENSOR Awakened Priscilla, into pieces with just a single attack in an instant, which would bypass the significance of Priscilla's uber regeneration, as she's dead, cut into tiny little pieces already (or had her head decapitated, which seems to be always fatal. I'm talking about their REAL head, obviously, and not some of the Awakeneds whom can create fake bodies and thus heads).


Teresa at 30% (or 50%), would move so fast that Priscilla's head would be on the ground or she'd be sliced into a bunch of pieces, before she even knows it, way before she could move/dodge or send out her tentacles or regenerate.

or....

Teresa at 30% (or 50%) would simply CRUSH Awakened Priscilla to death, just from her yoki "aura or spiritual pressure". hehe. (okay... I'm exaggerating for 30%, but 50%... or 70%.... NOPE!)

Tenacious Weezy
July 06, 2010, 11:15 AM
@HegemonKhan - Rosemary was not regarded as a true Abyssal One. She was number 1 at one point yes but not at her awakening, it's arguable how truly strong she was. Rigardo and Dauf are push overs compared to the true abyssal ones for example.
A somewhat awakened (but not even trying) Priscilla tore Isley in half during the flashback arc and in human form she decimated Alicia and Beth (with increased power).

I think Priscillas' dominance is being highly overlooked simply because she's fighting the strongest Awakened beings and Claymores probably in history (and making it look fairly easy) compared to Teresa who never showed more than 10% and was able to defeat an angry and unexperienced 80% Priscilla. Please remember that Teresa was going to kill Priscilla (before she started using excess Yoki) because she saw her as a threat in the future. I don't think her awakening halted that potential at all.

I still believe Priscilla is the strongest being seen thus far and if she defeats her current opponent I believe that would settle this fight as I don't see an unawakened Teresa being able to do anything.

p1xel
September 03, 2010, 01:07 PM
I think that priscilla is stronger than teresa.She is stronger than everyone IMO(in the awakened form).Soon we will see if clare can beat her...I'm too bored to read the whole discussion:p

HegemonKhan
September 03, 2010, 05:52 PM
Awakened Priscilla is definately the current "ruler of the island"

with the exception of this Destroyer-Clare thingy, and the...

newly revealed "ace or trump card" rank 10, with this current one being Raftela, whom is specifically choosen as a Claymore that gains the specific yoki ability to invade another Claymore's mind when that Claymore releases yoki, and cause an "Itachi-level-like genjutsu to their opponent". All the secretive rank 10's have had this ability, and ALWAYS kept hidden inside the Org HQs, until now. Well, the more emotional a Claymore is, like Miria with her anger/revenge against the Org, the easier it is to invade and manipulate their mind. Raftela upon invading Miria's mind, learns about Miria's deep love for Hilda, and uses that against Miria. Causing Miria's mind to see the single Awakening Twin she's fighting to look like Hilda. Miria is completely fooled and seemingly gets hacked to pieces dead. Well, with Priscilla releasing her yoki and obviously being very emotional or mentally unstable, Raftela could possibly kill Awakened Priscilla as well....

Why do you say that Priscilla is superior to Teresa? Give some good reasons (such as common sense/logic/reason and/or examples from manga scenes/pics/dialogue and explanations about them) as to why you think that Priscilla is superior (preferably provide chapter and page numbers, if you can)! Prove that all the "Teresa supporters" are wrong whom think that it is Teresa whom is superior to Priscilla, hehe!

metalia
September 04, 2010, 06:27 AM
For me, it is pretty obvius that Teresa is far stronger than Priscilla. I think that 15-20% Teresa could have killed awakened priscila even in a single blow effortlessly.

Actually I think that Teresa definetly had to die, because if she were alive, then the series would be pointless as there would be no villain capable of fighting her. She was such a pooooowerful one that I think no claymore will equal her ever.

I bet she will always be the best claymore till the end of the series and I think that's actualy the intention of Yagi, to make her remaining as an unbeatable legend.

Bye!

Sanitypact
September 04, 2010, 12:22 PM
For me, it is pretty obvius that Teresa is far stronger than Priscilla. I think that 15-20% Teresa could have killed awakened priscila even in a single blow effortlessly.

Actually I think that Teresa definetly had to die, because if she were alive, then the series would be pointless as there would be no villain capable of fighting her. She was such a pooooowerful one that I think no claymore will equal her ever.

I bet she will always be the best claymore till the end of the series and I think that's actualy the intention of Yagi, to make her remaining as an unbeatable legend.

Bye! That is overplaying it, she got caught off guard when she died, but even so if she were "god level" she wouldn't have needed to be on guard to react to a claymore that wasn't fully awakened yet. The swing would just have been too slow.

She was probably at full release the strongest character, but not by some insane untouchable margin.

HegemonKhan
September 04, 2010, 01:54 PM
I'm a Teresa supporter so I'll be a bit biased, and I don't want to get involved in this debate, so here's some facts only:

1. No Yoki Release Teresa was superior/more powerful than No Yoki Release Priscilla. (No PYS for Teresa to rely on/use here)

2. No yoki release Teresa was superior/more powerful to 10-30% or 10-50% Yoki Releasing Priscilla+Irene+Sophia+Noel in a 4v1 against Teresa. Teresa was NOT EVEN TOUCHED by all 4 of them!

3. 70-79% Yoki Releasing Priscilla was superior/more powerful than No Yoki Release Teresa. (As seen by Teresa gets injured-cut by Priscilla)

(My favoritism/biasedness: for probably the first time in her life. At least Teresa was never cut-injured by an Awakened rank 1 Rosemary, though Teresa for fun allowed Awakened Rosemary to bash her around a bit first)

4. 10% Yoki Releasing Teresa was superior/more powerful to 70-79% Yoki Releasing Priscilla.

5. ~80% (at least 80%) Yoki Releasing Priscilla was superior/more powerful to 10% Yoki Releasing Teresa.

6. Teresa foolishly reduces her yoki release back BELOW 10% Yoki Release, instead of raising her Yoki Release to 20% or higher. This is seen by her eyes returning to her circular silver iris and circular black pupils (Silver Eyes = BELOW 10% Yoki Release) from her skinny vertical snake-cat-like black pupils (Yellow/Golden Eyes = 10% or higher Yoki Release)

7. ~80% (at least 80%) Yoki Releasing Priscilla grabs her sword to the foolishly unsuspecting and UNDER 10% yoki Release Teresa, cuts off Teresa's hands and then Teresa's head, killing Teresa.

8. Priscilla is then no longer able to resist her Awakening, and Awakens into the "one horned winged demon" Awakened that we know her to be now.

9. Awakenened Priscilla in her Awakened body kills Sophia and Noel, and nearly kills Irene. Awakened Priscilla leaves little human girl Clare alive, despite being hungry, opting to fly off to eat other humans instead. (She would do the same, sparing, both Ophelia and Raki as well)

------------------------------------------------------

Being superior/more powerful and being able to die are mutually exclusive.

for examples:

1. Chuck Liddel could pwn me in a UFC match, as he *IS* far superior/more powerful than me, but even he can be knocked unconscious by even me, if he were to "let me" (or in Teresa's case, foolishly-accidentally "letting Priscilla") attack/punch him, despite his superiority/more powerfulness to/over me (or her-Teresa to/over Priscilla).

2. Agatha had her head decapitated by Cid, a human. Clearly Cid, a human, is not superior/more powerful than an Awakened rank 2 Agatha. Agatha is killable, by even a human, despite her superiority/more powerfulness. Unfortunately for Cid, that was just a fake head of hers, lol.

HegemonKhan
October 19, 2010, 09:14 PM
Taken from the Fantasy Fights thread:

-------------------------------------------------

"
Teresa vs Priscilla

Why is this even up for debate when Priscilla killed Teresa? Based on that alone Priscilla is the obvious victor here. Priscilla was said to hold potential to surpass Teresa. Meaning even if you're trying to imagine an awakened Teresa the edge in this fight should still go to Priscilla since awakening unlocks ones latent potential. Meaning awakened Priscilla is obviously more powerful than an awakened Teresa.
"

-Vengeance

from http://mangahelpers.com/forum/showpost.php?p=2126422&postcount=9)

------------------------------------------------------

"
2. ~"Teresa had a hard time against About-To-Awaken Priscilla" -Vengence

0-9% yoki release:

Pupil of their eyes is circular (Silver eyes, but there's no color in the manga, only the anime, so we have to look at their pupils' shape for the manga)

10-100% yoki release:

Pupil of their eyes is vertically narrow like a cat's or a snake's (Golden eyes, but there's no color in the manga, only the anime, so we have to look at their pupils' shape for the manga)

Priscilla at ~70-74% yoki release: chapter 22 page 23

vs 0-9% yoki release Teresa: chapter 22 pages 23-31

Priscilla slices Teresa's forehead. 70-74% Priscilla is more powerful than 0-9% Teresa.

chapter 22 page 31: Teresa is at 0-9% yoki release, as can be seen by her pupils' shape clearly on this page

vs 10% yoki release Teresa: chapter 22 page 32 - chapter 23 page 13

chapter 23 page 9: Teresa is at 10% yoki release now, as can be seen by her pupils' shape clearly on this page.

chapter 23 page 11: Irene states that Teresa is using exactly 10% yoki release to just change her eyes to golden. Teresa is NOT using 10-30% yoki, but rather EXACTLY 10% yoki.

10% Teresa is seen completely dominating ~70-74% Priscilla once again.

Priscilla at ~75-79% yoki release: chapter 23 pages 14-15

~75-79% Priscilla dominates 10% Teresa, as can be seen with Teresa grimacing to parry Priscilla's sword strike.

Priscilla at 80-??% yoki release: chapter 23 page 16 - chapter 24 page 21

Priscilla hits at least 80% yoki, and starts to Awaken, becoming an Awakened.

chapter 23 page 20:

Teresa foolishly believes the fight is over and that she can trust Awakening Priscilla to allow herself to be executed so that she may "die with the heart of a human", and thus...

Teresa LOWERS her yoki back BELOW 10% yoki release, as can be clearly seen by her pupils' circular shape (silver eyes).

at least 80% yoki release Priscilla decapitates the UNDER yoki releasing 0-9% Teresa (when just a few pages back, we see that 75-79% Priscilla overpowering 10% Teresa. Teresa needed to RAISE her yoki ABOVE 10% yoki, NOT LOWER her yoki BELOW 10%, as we see her do)

Clearly Priscilla never defeated Teresa, was NEVER superior to Teresa. Had Teresa raised her yoki to 20%, Teresa would never have been decapitated, but unfortunately she foolishly lowered her yoki back below 10% instead, and was thus decapitated.
"

-HK

from http://mangahelpers.com/forum/showpost.php?p=2126698&postcount=10

-----------------------------------------------

"
2. About Teresea & Priscilla
That's all well & good however as the facts actually stand Priscilla killed Teresea which makes her stronger. During this time Priscilla was clearly using youki which means Teresea should have been able to sense what Priscilla was about to do. We all saw Priscilla grab for her sword yet Teresea didn't do a thing about that because she obviously couldn't. Teresea doesn't fight with her full youki because it would clearly be harder for her to sense Priscilla's movements as mentioned with Clare when it was revealed that she does the same thing. Meaning raw power wouldn't necessarily make Teresea stronger but rather would make her weaker in an actual fight.

When looking at their base form fight Priscilla was clearly on par with Teresea in the beginning but really lost because of a lack of experience & a weak mental state. Simply put Priscilla was not ready to face someone like Teresea due to a lack of experience as a Claymore which is pretty much implied within the manga.

Once Priscilla started using Youki the fight was pretty much always in Teresea's favor since she could now easily predict Priscilla's actions. 10%, 40%, 70% concepts don't really matter here as it's clearly stated that Priscilla's had latent potential to surpass Teresea which was done when she actually awakened.
"

-Vengeance

from http://mangahelpers.com/forum/showpost.php?p=2126814&postcount=11

-----------------------------------

"
about Priscilla killing Teresa:

human Cid decapitated Agatha's (fake) head, if that was in fact her real head, Cid, a human, would have killed an Awakened rank 2, Agatha!

I hope you're not saying that Cid is superior/more powerful to Agatha, because that's the argument you're making, and as it's completely wrong.

there's a difference, between killing and ACTUALLY DEFEATING, an opponent.

let's use a real life example:

I could NEVER defeat Chuck Liddel in a UFC match. He's irrefutably superior/more powerful compared to me. He'd kick my bottom!

However, even I could knock him out, if he let down his guard, dropped his power level (if he could do such a thing) or turned off his fight mode, and proverbially "turned his back on me", like Teresa did (fatally foolishly) against Priscilla.

Teresa is Chuck Liddel, and Priscilla is merely me. Priscilla knocked Teresa out, in the only way that I could knock Chuck Liddel out, we were allowed to do so (or in Teresa's case foolishly-accidentally allowed Priscilla to do so), Priscilla could irrefutably NEVER ACTUALLY DEFEAT Teresa, just as I could NEVER ACTUALLY DEFEAT Chuck Liddel.

---------

again, as I tried to point out in my previous post:

Teresa needed MORE THAN 10% yoki against 80% or more Priscilla.

But, instead Teresa foolishly LOWERED her yoki BELOW 10%... and thus Priscilla was able to decapitated Teresa (as well as Teresa letting down her guard/wariness/caution, and thinking the fight was over and that Priscilla would willingly let herself be executed by Teresa)

had Teresa used 20% yoki, Priscilla would not have decapitated Teresa.

and let's get serious here:

10% Teresa pwns ~74% Priscilla.

10% Teresa gets "pwned" (arguably) by ~75-79% Priscilla.

0-9% Teresa gets decapitated by 80% or more Priscilla, whom is about to Awaken in the next 5 seconds or so.

Teresa IS superior to Priscilla by 7-8x more so! It would take 7-8 Priscilla's to equal Teresa's power. It's really that simple.

at just 10% yoki release Teresa was already practically rivalling an about to awaken (nearly 80%) Priscilla.

trying to compare near 80% near Awakened Priscilla to 10% Teresa, saying how Priscilla is Superior/more powerful, is completely absurd. 10% vs 70%... or even worse 0-9% vs 80-??%

for me, none of these pro-Priscilla argument points, over-ride these manga points, which are supportive of in Teresa's favor. Also, your argument of Priscilla killing Teresa is an empty one, because it has NOTHING to do with whether Priscilla is more powerful than Teresa or not. Anyone can be killed, and as I pointed out Cid had nearly killed Agatha (if that fake head of hers wasn't fake, lol).
"

-HK

from http://mangahelpers.com/forum/showpost.php?p=2126844&postcount=12

-----------------------------------------

"
About Priscilla vs Teresa
I'm not comparing Priscilla to Cid since those were two entirely different situations.

1. Cid had other people there to distract Agatha while Priscilla didn't.

2. Teresa knew that Priscilla was losing control of herself since you know she was about to awaken. Meaning Teresa should have been on her guard regardless of what Priscilla was saying.

3. Priscilla while at 80% or whatever first reached for her sword while Teresa was looking right at her before actually cutting off Teresa's hands.

4. Even after getting her hands chopped off from an opponent who was 1 second ago on their knees & disarmed Teresa still failed to move fast enough to avoid getting her head chopped off.

What does all of this show? A clear difference in speed obviously. Teresa having the ability to predict attacks before they happened means she should have sensed this however since she wasn't fast enough she couldn't actually do anything to avoid it.

Making a false assumption about Teresa being at 20% would have dodged it is bullshit. In fact I can now make an assumption about how since she only really fights seriously at 10% that she wouldn't actually be able to predict Priscilla's movement since she'd be using to much youki.

You seem to fail to understand the actual concept of why Teresa was so powerful. It wasn't simply because of raw physical strength, speed, agility, or youki power but because she was able to predict what her opponents would do before they even had a chance to do it. The argument you're trying to present about Teresa using more youki power would automatically make her a more deadly opponent is a fictitious argument at best when you consider what actually makes her powerful in the first place.
"

-Vengeance

from http://mangahelpers.com/forum/showpost.php?p=2127399&postcount=13


----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


my response and reasons for Teresa being superior to Priscilla:


1. about Priscilla killing Teresa:

1A. Teresa foolishly fatally (FF) assumed that the fight was over.

1B. Teresa FF assumed she could trust Orcish Nearly-Awakening Priscilla.

1C. Teresa FF kept being merciful to Priscilla, due to Clare's catalyst'izing Teresa's softness, into becoming "human-like" even.

1D. Teresa already defeated Priscilla, able to have decapitated Priscilla at the end of the town battle, but FF chose not too due to her softness, and seeing Clare's face when she looked at Priscilla's.

1E. Teresa defeated Priscilla again outside of town, but was FF soft again on Priscilla, telling her to change back, instead of decapitating her for a 2nd time.

1F. Even prior to 1D, Teresa was about to kill Priscilla, but Irene intervened, saving Priscilla's life.

1G. Teresa pwned Priscilla while they were BOTH not releasing any yoki, so Teresa already proved she could defeat Priscilla without her PYS ability, as she did just that!

1H. Teresa LOWERED her yoki BACK BELOW 10%, instead of raising it ABOVE 10%, to say 20%

1I: 10% Teresa pwned 70-79% Priscilla

1J. Irene herself stated that Teresa was superior:

Irene: ~"Both have massive yokis far beyond even me, but one is far more massive than the other. Who can stop Priscilla...? I... I... I can't believe it, Teresa just pwned 70-79% Priscilla and her massive power level with just 10% release of her yoki! So, this is Teresa's true power! How stupid was I to think Priscilla's power level could rival Teresa's! Damn.. you Teresa.. but right now, I'm glad, as you're thus able to stop MAD/CRAZED Priscilla!"

1K. Priscilla herself states that Teresa is getting FASTER, while they fought each other, BOTH not releasing their yokis, which was counter to Irene's DEAD WRONG speech about their individual skills being superior to Teresa's, as Teresa would immediately make Irene a fool, besting each of them at their respective skills, while fighting all 4 of them at once, NEVER getting touched by them once! So, Priscilla was the one whom ACCURATELY sensed Teresa, sensing Teresa's speed increasing against her, yet Teresa wasn't releasing any yoki... so how could that be??? My theory is that Teresa was taking it easy on Priscilla for the first part of their battle against each other with no yoki release. Realizing that Priscilla could match her, at this "taking it easiness", Teresa upped her power, which Priscilla sensed/realized that Teresa was suddenly moving FASTER now, and pwning her. And this was without even releasing yoki. Teresa using using the full extent/power of her 0-9% yoki during the first half of her fight, against Priscilla when they weren't both releasing yoki.

1L. power level = strength, speed, agility, sword swing quickness, reaction time, and etc.

1M. Teresa was far superior in power level, which meant Teresa was far superior in strength, speed, agility, sword swing quickness, reaction time, and etc. making a fool of Irene whom was stating that their skills (strength, speed, agility, sword swing quickness, reaction time, and etc) wre superior to Teresa's, but Priscilla, whom was actually fighitng Teresa, knew better, stating that Teresa's speed was increasing against her!

1N. Priscilla was extremely skilled in combat.

1O. There's no discernable experience difference between TEresa and Priscilla, as Priscilla was extremely and flawlessly skilled in her combat performance against TEresa.

1P. Teresa could have killed Rosemary with NO yoki release. Rosemary is/was an Awakened rank 1, just as the Abyssal Ones are, Awakened rank 1's, so that makes Rosemary an Abyssal One by default/definition.

Not only kill Rosemary at no yoki release, but with her bare hands too!

I seriously doubt that Priscilla could kill Rosemary as easily as Teresa could. And especially not with her bare hands, nor no yoki release.

1Q. etc (I have many more points to use as well, but this is quite good enough already)

2. Teresa said that Priscilla could surpass her in the future:

I'd propose that Teresa was just pondering this, not entirely sure if it would be true or not, and then she refutes it just a few moments later with this:

Teresa: "Come after me as many times as you want. I'll cut you down each and every time!"

Teresa then proves it, as Priscilla does just this, as seen in the battle between them outside of town. Though, despite defeating priscilla, Teresa does get decapitated anyways, entirely due to Teresa's own fault, and nothing to do with the inferior Priscilla, whom just got pwned yet again, knocked on her bottom by just 10% Teresa, even while she was at ~70-74% yoki.

3. about Teresa being unable to react, resulting in her decapitation/death:

Teresa was UNDER-powered (and thus wasn't able to react) due to FF LOWERING her yoki BELOW 10%, instead of raising it above 10%, like she needed to do so.

not to mention all the other reasons as well. psychologically/mentally distracted and non-cautious, soft and merciful, and other such stuff.

4. About Clare's initial amaturishness in using the PYS:

this has nothing to do with Teresa's ability in using the PYS. There's no connection to Teresa. There's no reason at all to think that Teresa couldn't release her yoki and still be able to use her PYS as well.

in fact, Clare herself, rapidly is able to release her own yoki, without it interfering with her PYS ability of sensing her opponent's yoki, as seen alrady in the Ophelia Battle, then the Dauf Battle, than the Pieta Battle, and finally in the Western Land Battle against the Destroyer's projectiles and Priscilla. Clare's an EXTREMELY QUICK LEARNER!

5. about the PYS:

all it does is give a few more nanoseconds of time to start reacting before anyone else.
It really not that great of an ability, far too often over-rated.

Even with these few extra nanoseconds to start reacting, the Claymore STILL has to have the physical ability to react fast, to move fast, and etc.

What good is a few extra nanoseconds, if you're still too slow to actually move out of the way in time?

So, the PYS does offer a slight advantage to Teresa (and now Clare), Teresa (and Clare) STILL have to have that physical speed and reaction time to take advantage of the small advantage from the PYS.

The PYS doesn't make Teresa power/dominant/superior, it only adds a few extra nanoseconds to start reacting. EVERYTHING ELSE (STRENGTH, SPEED, AGILITY, REACTION TIME, and ETC) IS ALL TERESA'S POWER LEVEL'S DOING!

The clear proof of that is Clare

Clare still gets hit even with the PYS, whereas Teresa never did including without using the PYS as Priscilla wasn't releasing any yoki in their first battle (except the single time by Priscilla, cutting Teresa's forehead, and of course Teresa's decapitation/death too). So what's the difference? It's not the PYS, it's the difference in Teresa's power level vs Clare's power level.

6. "I'm not comparing Priscilla to Cid since those were two entirely different situations. 1. Cid had other people there to distract Agatha while Priscilla didn't." -Vengeance

distraction is distraction, whether it is by others or by self. non-focus/concentration/wariness/caution IS non-focus/concentration/wariness/caution.

Joe7133
November 03, 2010, 10:18 PM
During the fight between Theresa and Priscilla. Theresa was stronger due to experience and age difference. Just like Theresa notice it too. Given time and experience, Priscilla would have been stronger.

Even when Priscilla awaken, she wasn't as strong as she should be too because she wasn't fully awaken.

During the fight with Lucilia vs Ieseley. Riful was about to destroy Ieseley but Priscilla was there. Riful can sense that Priscilla has fully awaken and she was much much stronger then anyone of them. So she ran off back to the east.

HegemonKhan
November 04, 2010, 12:12 AM
hey Joe7133, welcome to the site and to the Claymore section!

Hope, you like Claymore much as I do, hehe! Keep making good posts!

------------------------

I have to disagree though (as I'm firmly a "Teresa supporter"), I don't see experience or age having any baring in Claymore. Frankly, Claymore is much like DBZ with power levels. It's all about power levels in Claymore, as the power levels cause such a vast difference, that such factors in our real world with combat, just really don't apply to Claymore, as they're so minor compared to the sheer vastness of power levels.

Awakened Priscilla was pwning everyone because her power level is far beyond that of even the Abyssal Ones.

And Teresa pwned Priscilla repeatedly because her power level was 7-8 times beyond that of even Priscilla's.

It's really that simple, and there's no Goku in Claymore whom wins with a weaker power level or having their power level magically shoot up like it does with Goku and DBZ.

Oh some characters are close in power levels, where other factors can then come into play, but this is quite rare.

Joe7133
January 26, 2011, 02:46 AM
You know after what I re-read the extra chapter about Teresa and Rosemary, I'm thinking Teresa is a total monster that no one ever knew.

Chapter 73 extra scene 01 page 27.
http://www.mangakong.com/manga/Claymore/073.01/27

Rosemary an AO was shock at Teresa crazy Yoma energy!

luiggi
February 02, 2011, 08:49 AM
I really do believe that with the org's current roster, Teresa cannot be defeated. Priscilla was supposed to be the next number 1, should Teresa retires (which i find really impossible) because she has the potential to surpass Teresa. However, lacking experience, Priscilla awakened and sadly cheated her way to kill Teresa. Basically because there was no way Priscilla can defeat Teresa.

Teresa is plain and simple, The most powerful Claymore that lived. I am so sure that she could defeat the Abyssal Ones, should Teresa was given the chance.

Kara-san
February 06, 2011, 09:18 AM
Awakened Priscilla was pwning everyone because her power level is far beyond that of even the Abyssal Ones.

And Teresa pwned Priscilla repeatedly because her power level was 7-8 times beyond that of even Priscilla's.

Isn't Irene's analysis of their powers pretty much an end to the debate? Priscilla had the potential to surpass Theresa. In fact, Theresa herself was completely aware of that. She was about to kill Priscilla and then decided not to, while commenting on how soft she was getting >
http://www.mangakong.com/manga/Claymore/022.027/12

Considering Theresa died right after, the debate kind of ends at 'Priscilla may have been able to get stronger than her, but never really did'. Irene also partly blames the fact that Priscilla did manage to kill her on her 'decline' as a warrior because she failed to kill Priscilla when she quite obviously could. So as Claymores, Theresa was waaay stronger.

The only thing I'm unsure about is whether an awakened Theresa would be stronger than Priscilla is now, and notice Priscilla's power is quite... ridiculous. She completely annihilated the the merged thing of Beth and (Number 1 strength...) and one of the projectiles from the big Luciela/Rafaela thing, in seconds, while calling it a weak baby. Would Theresa have been able to do the same? And can Priscilla actually beat the whole Luciela/Rafaela being? She might be tiny compared to it but we all know that means nothing... if she could, I wouldn't be able to say Theresa would have been stronger than her.

Though I guess we'll never really know for sure. =/

Goral
February 06, 2011, 12:28 PM
@Kara-san
You're repeating a common mistake. You will find counter-arguments to everything you said on account of Priscilla in this topic but I'll try to briefly sum it up for you.

When Irene said that Priscilla had the potential to surpass Teresa she didn't know Teresa's power at all besides what Teresa let others see and sense. In fact Irene thought that each of their talents was better than Teresa's and that Teresa was only able to dominate everyone thanks to her pre-emptive youki sensing (PYS in short). She also thought that Priscilla was fighting blindly but we know thanks to Priscilla that it wasn't exactly true. Priscilla noticed sth Irene as an observer couldn't - Teresa sped up. She was gradually taking it up a notch, i.e. she could have dealt with Priscilla anytime she wanted and was playing with her. We know it thanks to many clues that Yagi has left for us the most obvious one being fighting four of them at once. No matter how good her PYS would be it would not allow her to slow time which would be required if she was slower than four of them combined. What good would it do if Teresa knew exactly where 4 of them would strike if they did it at once and she wasn't faster than them (and we know they attacked her at once)? Unless she had 4 arms, 4 swords eyes behind her head and could multi-task it would be impossible so the only other explanation is that she was faster than 4 of them combined. PYS doesn't tell how to hold a sword (at what angle, etc.) or where to stand. It only tells about the incoming attack but how could it help with 4 warriors? In fact we know thanks to Clare that it's very unreliable technique that helped only in specific moments (like ranged attacks - Rigulad/male AB from slasher's arc or sneak attacks). But going back to Irene, not long after Irene and Priscilla had Teresa in the corner (http://www.imagebam.com/image/1dad5f45376766) (or so it would seem to them) Teresa has shown a glimpse of her real power (http://www.imagebam.com/image/e6081b45377635). That's when Irene said: "I misjudged her AGAIN" (so it wasn't the first time she thought Teresa could be defeated). After their complete defeat Irene still thought that Priscilla had more potential. But notice that Irene couldn't sense Teresa yet but she could sense - and she did - Priscilla who has released at least 30% of youki. So she was comparing 30% Priscilla and 0% Teresa. She saw that Teresa effortlessly disposed of 30% Priscilla plus 3 others and still thought Priscilla would eventually come on top... Talk about foolishness.
However, once Irene could sense Teresa everything became clear to her. Irene said that Teresa exceeded Priscilla's immense power.

信じられん - I can't believe it / Unbelievable
あのバカでかいプリシラの力を目の色が変わる程度の妖力解放で上回るだと
Are you saying that she exceeds that ridiculously large power of Priscilla's with a youriki release to the degree that the color of her eyes changes (...) i.e. 10% Teresa > 80% Priscilla.


And there is Irene's strange behavior (volume 7, about page 100-110). I for one would think that she would tell Clare that even Teresa was nowhere near Priscilla's power if that was the case. After all she sensed Priscilla after she "released her latent abilities". She was at the time at full power and totally aware of what was going on (being even sarcastic). She sensed Teresa's power too, after she released her youki (she had never had a chance like that before) and understood who was the boss there. What's more, when talking to Clare she told her: "There's not a warrior alive today who can stop her".
She couldn't have known any "today" warriors or their capabilities since she was in hiding ever since her encounter with Priscilla. So if she didn't know them her statement wouldn't make any sense unless there was a warrior that was capable of defeating awakened Priscilla.
And we know she she didn't know about present warriors because of her encounter with Ophelia and Raphaela (it also suggests that she basically knew only warriors from her own generation). She was surprised that warriors these days are so aggressive.
Irene specifically said that there's not a warrior alive today, which suggests that there was such warrior but he's dead now. I wouldn't see a point of her saying that if she didn't mean that (she didn't say - even Teresa was/would be no match to her or Priscilla is the most powerful being ever). Also she didn't try to stop Clare (and she clearly cared about her) by saying "if Teresa stood no chance you won't stand a chance either". It looked to me she wasn't 100% sure Clare would lose, most probably because of Teresa factor in Clare.

As for what Teresa said herself about Priscilla. She only said that she doesn't know how their next encounter will turn out. Which basically says nothing to us besides that Teresa wasn't 100% sure she would win against her. But that's rather obvious. There is no fight with 100% chance of success. Anyway, read what she said here: http://forums.animesuki.com/showthread.php?p=3376123#post3376123


(...) In fact, Theresa herself was completely aware of that. She was about to kill Priscilla and then decided not to, while commenting on how soft she was getting >
http://www.mangakong.com/manga/Claymore/022.027/12 (...)

Now, that's untrue. Yes, she admitted that she's getting soft, however she DID NOT say that Priscilla will or even might suprass her. As for her getting soft, despite this fact she was sure she would be able to cut Priscilla down every time. One doesn't exclude the other.

As for Priscilla being ridiculously strong - true. That doesn't change the fact that she was constrained by Raciella +Clare (who is nowhere near Teresa in terms of power) and ended up just like Clare. So it was a close fight, not one-sided one. And taking into account that 10% Teresa could wipe the floor with 80% Priscilla it makes it rather obvious that Teresa's power was even beyond that of Priscilla. And while Priscilla is strong she has also shown that she wasn't that strong. Yes she dealt with Alicia, Beth and Riful easily. But they were all weakened (either physically or mentally). She also had problems with carching up to Deneve and didn't know how to deal with projectiles and yet she could destroy Raciella instantly. She also had problems with Duff for a moment and she also took quite a beating from Isley. Sure, she had still a big advantage, etc. etc. but for all we know she could be only 100% stronger and faster than Isley or even 50% (which still would be a huge advantage and since she dealt with Alicia almost instantly would explain why such "small" advantage would suffice). Although I'm guessing she's more like 200% faster and stronger and has 10 times as much youki as an Abyssal (but then one might ask how come Deneve and Helen managed to escape from her for such a long time...).

colonywars
March 09, 2011, 01:49 PM
Hello :)

I think, that Teresa was indeed stronger then Priscilla, and not only Her Yoma side, but also human.

What do You think, what kind of Yoma flesh Teresa has been implanted to gain so overwhelming power level? We know, that all abilities come form Yoma side, and human side is only to keep the power level in reasonable limits. We know what is happening when human side lose control.

Also, I read all this post (5 pages) and no one even wonder about that, what Extremely Strong human side must Teresa had, to keep this power under control.

Than, She fights only on 10% of Her power. Question Was in another thread, did this was only all She can use?

I think, that She never have to use more then 10% of Her power, because this 10% was already too much overreacted on every enemy, She ever meet to fight.

Think of it, like a way of Warrior, who knows His limits, power, skills and know, that fight is only a moment, and True Warriors never allow to show enemy emotions or act overconfidence. So maybe Teresa knew, that She can go over 50% maybe even 70% but for what? Glory? Pleasure? Show?

And also Teresa seems to be cold hearted b....., but the way She fight with Rosemary as an Warrior to Warrior, even with true relief that Rosemary awakened first, and She don't have to kill Her own companion. And that words: "I usually don't do that a lot..." because when You don't need full power to defeat enemy, why to use it? 10% was enough for Rosemary, and death She was killed was fast and painless, like True Warriors can kill.

Every One know Berserk Manga, maybe You will remember when Serpico challenge Guts in the room full of pillars. The words of Serpico, when he loose was:

"He answered to my challenge with the sword by the sword. No matter how bad the circumstance was for him....And most of all He didn't release the powers of the armor..."

That is how Warriors fighting, to win, but not to lost control on them. A truly Faint Smile :)

And hesitate to kill Priscilla... already beaten enemy, shaking with fear and crying like a baby, which She just was. Is true Warrior kills like a villain? Even when Teresa knew, that in the future it means nothing but troubles, She pass away. This kind of honor code of Her, made Her dead, but at least She die with that, what She truly beliefs.

Have a nice evening :)

Joe7133
March 09, 2011, 11:04 PM
Here's my reason to believe that Teresa is a monster.

At first, no one has ever seen Teresa power up to 10% to fight.

Irene/Sophia/Noel/Teresa can sense Priscilla power level after she had release it.

Irene being defeated with Sophia/Noel/Priscilla at 10-30% figure that they were too blind to see Teresa true power.

Teresa only state that Priscilla maybe as strong as her because Priscilla hasn't release her power level. After she release it, Teresa did in fact stated that Priscilla should give up because she was in no state to win.

The power level that Irene stated that one was higher than the other was really Teresa. Teresa at 10% was greater than Priscilla at 70%. This was show by Teresa knocking Priscilla at 70% back.

More fact even show that Teresa at 10% was able to kill an AO Rosemary with ease.

Why did Teresa die? She let her emotional ruin her perception and Priscilla took the advantage to kill her.

Why is Priscilla stronger than the other AO? I'm sure she was probably stronger because she came out of the shop and jumped to rank 2. This doesn't give her a reason to be stronger then Teresa. Teresa is still far stronger. If Teresa had awaken, I feel the organization and the 3 AO might have to tag just to get rid of her.

jamie95403
March 10, 2011, 04:08 AM
OK, so we have Teresa, who we've never seen use more than 10% of her power in an unawakened state. Dae implants the flesh of Priscilla, who is at least as powerful as Riffle and Luciela combined. Do the math and we have colonywars' doomsday machine. It does seems like nuclear overkill.

Though I may be mistaken, I can't see all the Claymore warriors combined taking on an Abyssal One made from any of the former No. 1s, let alone a revived Teresa. Remember what Luciela did to HQ with even less power?

What worthy target could such a weapon be used against in the current state of the series? The Yoki cocoon of the Destroyer appears inert. But some posters here and on some other forums anticipate a combined Clare-Priscilla or Clare-Destroyer, or even a Clare-Priscilla-Destroyer. Maybe.

This revived Teresa business is what I least expected since Master Dae first proposed his project to Chief Klimt. But with so many readers anticipating Teresa's resurrection, even a skeptic like me has to reconsider the possibility. What about Cassandra? Or is she a red herring? I feel another one of those three-four-way fights coming our way.

Too mind boggling :-)

Khorr
July 06, 2011, 10:11 AM
I think the only reason why Teresa won the fight was that Priscilla wanted to fight honorably. Otherwise I think Teresa head would have been cut off when she jumped out and landed on the street.

Remember, Priscilla was undetectable at that time. Too bad, Priscilla was still young and foolish.

---------- Post added at 10:20 PM ---------- Previous post was at 10:03 PM ----------

I think we can't determine who is the strongest out of the Big 3. We've only learned Hysteria's power, but not the other two yet. I'm guessing Hysteria might be the weakest since her power was shown first. I could be wrong here, just saying.

We do know that they were extremely fast like Teresa cutting up lower rank Claymore left and right without seeing them doing it.

Again, we haven't seen Miria full potential power too. Even though she said her speed is the same, but her precision is not the same.

My thought on the next chapter will probably be the ghost group arriving and see Miria and the rest of them at the mercy of the Big 3. I like to see the chapter end with Clare and Priscilla starting a mental battle in the Cocoon. :)

I'll counter that with my case. I think Teresa is simply too fast, experienced and have an insane reflax speed as a warrior for an unreleased Priscilla. She could of wounded Teresa with the sneak attack I think, but not enough to kill her. The blade would of never sink deep enough for a fatal blow before Teresa kocks it out of the way.

My evidence:

1. Teresa was ambushed by the bandits and it didn't fare too well for the bandits. The bandits have no yoki since they were human. Sure they were just bandits but ambushing is a bandits trade.

2. Teresa said in her own words that Priscilla could of wounded her. Said nothing about actually killing her.

3. This may be my strongest evidence. In Capter 21, Page 22. When Teresa was parrying Ilena's attack, a YR Priscilla came up from behind to go cut at Teresa's head. Then she sees the sword at the corner of her eyes and then noticed Priscilla. Then nothing follow by blood gushing out of Ilena. She evaded an attack by a +30% YR Priscilla at the last moment with the blade coming just a few inches while she's still pinned down by +30% YR Ilena and still manages to cut down Ilena in the process. She didn't need to sense yoki when going up against mere claymores with that kind of insane combat reflexes in order to evade an attack by them.

4. At +70% YR Priscilla on Chapter 22, Teresa state that there was so much yoki coming out of Priscilla that she can't read her flow. That means her yoki sensing was mooted till she goes +10% YR herself. Two pages later, we see +70% YR Priscilla stabbing at Teresa's head. Teresa has her blade in a lowered position, Priscilla's blade then came almost touching Teresa, then suddenly Teresa kocks it out of the way ending with her having a minor cut. This is proof of more of Teresa's insane reflex speed, able to knock away an incoming attack at high velocity that's literally an inch away to minimize any damage.

My final conclusion is, having her being caught offguard, or ambushing is not enough to take Teresa down as a lone factor. The person doing the ambushing must also be able to Swing Her Sword Fast Enough to evade her insane reflex speed. A none YR Priscilla could not inflcit a deep enough wound on Teresa in an ambush, Teresa would of noticed the blade coming at her i while in mid swing and evade/parry/kock it away as soon as it get too close for comfort. It would take Priscilla at a +70% YR to swing the blade fast enough to cut down -10% YR Teresa through and through in a surprised situation.

Teresa's end was ultimately her own doing. Droping her yoki down below 10%.

Teresa let her guard down, lowering her yoki to under 10% and then was cut down by a surprised attack with a swing fast enough by Priscilla's going over 80% YR to counter Teresa's insane reflex speed.

Goral
July 06, 2011, 10:21 AM
Thanks for doing the work for me. I've recently had the same dispute with other on AS. (http://forums.animesuki.com/showthread.php?p=3664106#post3664106) In fact I've been using the same picture you're using for years. That is the best proof of Teresa being a goddess. This and Irene's words "so that's the true nature of Teresa's strength" where "that" is youki. It meant that Teresa's greatest strength wasn't her pre-emptive youki sensing or experience but the limitless youki she had. Youki that went beyond even that of Priscilla's.

astrallite
July 15, 2011, 04:28 AM
According to Irene, Ranks 2-5 individually did things better than Teresa (i.e power, speed, agility), but it was her ability to read Youki that put her over the top.

When Teresa faced Priscilla, it took Teresa time to adjust the fact she couldn't read Priscilla's youki before using her combat experience to overtake her. However, Priscilla just joined the organization and obviously was not at the combat level of anyone in Ranks 2 through 5.

So based on Teresa's showing against Priscilla, isn't it likely to say, without her ability to read Youki, Teresa would, on her physical merits alone, only be a Rank 6 or lower?

Maybe this is why the organization didn't seem especially bothered by her passing. After all, what use is someone who is only good at fighting their own kind? The Claymores are built to fight the Dragonkin, so wouldn't Teresa be considered just another failure of the organization?

Vengeance
July 15, 2011, 10:10 PM
Pirscilla pwnz Teresa which is a fact of the manga. Who killed who again? O yeah that's right Pirscilla killed Teresa. I sware that girl gets way to much hype from people.

Khorr
July 15, 2011, 10:17 PM
According to Irene, Ranks 2-5 individually did things better than Teresa (i.e power, speed, agility), but it was her ability to read Youki that put her over the top.

When Teresa faced Priscilla, it took Teresa time to adjust the fact she couldn't read Priscilla's youki before using her combat experience to overtake her. However, Priscilla just joined the organization and obviously was not at the combat level of anyone in Ranks 2 through 5.

That is true, Ilena did said that. However what Ilena said at the time was flawed or could be wrong because she didn't know about Teresa's "true power" till later. Teresa was holding back the entire time. No one knew how strong, fast, or agile Teresa really was till they saw her fight the +70 Priscilla and even then, only Ilena was able to accurately gauge Teresa's power. So, the only assessment of Teresa up to that point can be regarded as flawed or inaccurate except when it's from Teresa's and maybe Priscilla's own words.

Teresa also proved Ilena's initial assessment wrong with action. I think Teresa proves that she's acturly a lot stronger, faster and more agile then what Ilena first said. Lets compare Teresa with the best out of the three.

Strength:
Sophia: Cutting through a solid stone pillar to kill the yoma hiding behind it. Stabbing through the floor of the inn to kill Teresa.
Teresa: Kicking Noel across the street and in to the second story of the inn, with enough force to left a large dent behind on a stone wall. 10% Teresa repeling +70% Priscilla's massive strenght with one arm. Corkscrewing Rank 1 AB Rosemary's arm off with "flick of her wrist".

Agility:
Noel: Doing cartweels around killing lots of Yoma in process. (Yeah, I couldn't find much reference)
Teresa: Doing a 360 flip and landing on Noel's blade end (the sharp edge not the blunt side) then cutting Noel in one move. We seen her get out of harms way at the last moment just as the blade was about to hit her many times.

Speed:
Ilena: Well we all know Ilena can use the Quicksword to swing her blade really fast.
Teresa: She don't she uses any technique, but I think she can swing her blade damn fast too. She chopped up Rosemary to bits pretty much instantly. She can block Ilena's Quicksword, being able to sense the quicksword is no good by itself if your body is too slow to move to intercept the blade for a successful block or parry.


So based on Teresa's showing against Priscilla, isn't it likely to say, without her ability to read Youki, Teresa would, on her physical merits alone, only be a Rank 6 or lower?

Maybe this is why the organization didn't seem especially bothered by her passing. After all, what use is someone who is only good at fighting their own kind? The Claymores are built to fight the Dragonkin, so wouldn't Teresa be considered just another failure of the organization?

No, because even if that was true and that she's slower then Ilena, weaker then Sophia and not as agile as Noel. Her overall combat value would still be a lot higher. Here's an example.

This is base on my assumption for example use and in no way accurate or official.

.............. Sophia....Noel...Ilena...Teresa
Strength: ....100......50.......50..........80
Agility:..........50.....100.......70..........80
Speed:..........50......50......100..........80
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Total:......... 200.....200.....220........240
Rank:.....----#3 or #4----... #2.........#1

Note, I'm giving Teresa a very low estimate here with only being 80/100 in terms of speed, agility and strength and she still ends up with the highest total value. She would be #1 still even without yoki sensing and using Ilena's flawed assessment.

I think every Claymore is considered a failure so far by the Organization, otherwise they would of already stop the research and starts on mass production and plans to ship them over the sea.

wickedsmile
July 15, 2011, 11:35 PM
You might want to reassess your conclusions regarding the Teresa/Priscilla conflict. Yes, Priscilla does kill Teresa. However, she does not overwhelm Teresa. As a matter fact, Priscilla could barely keep up with Teresa. Irene, who observed the fight from a safe distance, even remarked that Teresa had outclassed Priscilla. "Priscilla has been outmatched all along (Ch 20. P. 21)." Also, we see that Teresa draws first blood by cutting Priscilla's cheek and also by striking Priscilla's metal epaulet.

When the three executioners all release their Youki, Teresa defeated them with even greater ease. Consumed by fear, Priscilla cowered on her knees unable to move. Yielding to the newly rediscovered softness in her heart, Teresa spared Priscilla's life. During the final melee, Teresa who only used 10% of her Youki managed to complete destroy a nearly 80% youki release Priscilla.

That Priscilla killed Teresa does not mean that her abilities far exceeded those of her elder warrior. Teresa could no longer kill indiscriminately, as she saw in Priscilla, an innocent child that deserved a second chance. Her kindness and foolish optimism doomed her. Priscilla was already beyond saving.

Priscilla outwitted and deceived Teresa to deal her the final blow. Priscilla pawns Teresa? The events in the Marked for Death chapter do not support that statement.

Vengeance
July 16, 2011, 12:13 AM
You might want to reassess your conclusions regarding the Teresa/Priscilla conflict. Yes, Priscilla does kill Teresa.
So what exactly is there to talk about? Priscilla killed Teresa when Teresa was armed & about to cut Priscillia's head off while Priscillia was unarmed. There is no debate here Priscillia was fast enough to grab her weapon & cut Teresa's arms off while Teresa couldn't even react. The difference in speed is unquestioned here.


However, she does not overwhelm Teresa.
Read above Priscillia did overwhelm Teresa. She was so fast that Teresa couldn't even preseve her movement. Meaning she was overwhelmed by Priscillia's incredible speed.


As a matter fact, Priscilla could barely keep up with Teresa..
Ummm no even in the beginning Priscillia was pressing Teresa hard. Priscillia lost her advantage over Teresa once Priscillia started using Yoku. Teresa was reading Priscillia's Yoku to predict her movement which is what really allowed Teresa the ability to fight on par with Priscillia in the first place. However once Priscillia reach the point of no return Teresa's body wasn't physically fast enough to react to Priscillia's movement even with her great Yoku reading ability.


Irene, who observed the fight from a safe distance, even remarked that Teresa had outclassed Priscilla.
While Teresa clearly mentioned that given time Priscillia would surpass her. Teresa also clearly stated that there hasn't been a warrior with as much potential as Priscillia.


"Priscilla has been outmatched all along (Ch 20. P. 21)." Also, we see that Teresa draws first blood by cutting Priscilla's cheek and also by striking Priscilla's metal epaulet.
Yeah ok what happens at the end? O yeah that's right Teresa is totally outclassed & has her head cut clean off.


When the three executioners all release their Youki, Teresa defeated them with even greater ease
Because that is Teresa's gift. The more Yoku you release the easier it is for Teresa to predict that persons movements. That doesn't mean that she is physically faster or stronger. It's funny how people fail to understand this.



Consumed by fear, Priscilla cowered on her knees unable to move. Yielding to the newly rediscovered softness in her heart, Teresa spared Priscilla's life.
You mean before the battle got serious?


During the final melee, Teresa who only used 10% of her Youki managed to complete destroy a nearly 80% youki release Priscilla.
Umm yeah you fail to understand what truly makes Teresa strong. At that point Priscillia was fighting blinding filled with rage.


That Priscilla killed Teresa does not mean that her abilities far exceeded those of her elder warrior.
Actually it clearly does since Teresa couldn't defend herself against an attack against a once unarmed opponent while Teresa herself had a sword in hand.


Teresa could no longer kill indiscriminately, as she saw in Priscilla, an innocent child that deserved a second chance. Her kindness and foolish optimism doomed her. Priscilla was already beyond saving.
Huuu?? Teresa was about to cut off Priscillia's head at that point re-read the manga.


Priscilla outwitted and deceived Teresa to deal her the final blow. Priscilla pawns Teresa? The events in the Marked for Death chapter do not support that statement.
Actually it does re-read the manga. Priscillia was unarmed while Teresa was armed. Teresa was preparing to cut off Priscillia's head when Priscillia garbed her sword & was fast enough to cut off Teresa's hands without giving Teresa time to react to any of it. This alone shows the true difference in ability.

wickedsmile
July 16, 2011, 01:07 AM
Vengeance:

You misunderstand my intent and meaning. I don't disagree with the outcome of "Marked for Death." It forms the foundation of the Manga and that of Clare's purpose in life. When you say that Priscilla "pawns" Teresa, it implies that Priscilla defeats Teresa with great ease.
That simply is not the case. If you intended a different meaning, would you please elaborate.

1. Teresa cuts Priscilla. (http://read.mangashare.com/Claymore/chapter-020/page019.html)
2. Irene saves Priscilla's head (http://read.mangashare.com/Claymore/chapter-021/page005.html).
3. Teresa shows mercy to Priscilla and does not behead her (http://read.mangashare.com/Claymore/chapter-022/page014.html).
4. Priscilla lies to Teresa to get Teresa to lower her guard (http://read.mangashare.com/Claymore/chapter-023/page021.html).

The entire Marked for Death chapter is replete with examples of Teresa dominating Priscilla and always showing mercy to her younger foe. It's true that Priscilla could have surpassed Teresa. Our tragic heroine admitted as much. However, at the time of the conflict Teresa was superior to Priscilla.

Khorr
July 16, 2011, 08:55 AM
Pirscilla pwnz Teresa which is a fact of the manga. Who killed who again? O yeah that's right Pirscilla killed Teresa. I sware that girl gets way to much hype from people.

No, Priscilla did not owned Teresa. Owning would mean Priscilla has to outclass Teresa in everything and just toying her for fun. A great example of getting owned would be Ophelia owning Clare, when the two fought the first time. Ophelia outclass Clare in everything, and didn't have a chance and knew it. She just ran and ran and ran and even running she was too slow for Ophelia and then end up losing her real arm. Of course Clare was saved and Ilena pwned Ophelia after.

However Teresa did get Punked by Priscilla, getting punked is not the same as getting pwned.

(ex: A 250 pound black belt wants to fight me (120lbs with no martial art skills) in the parking lot in exactly an hour would pwn me in a 1 vs 1 fight 100% of the time. So knowing that the guy can kick my ass, I hid a taser in my coat pocket. When I see the dude in the parking lot at the given time, I shot him in the face with the taser gun right away, even before he gets near enough to throw a punch. I then kick him till he passed out while he's down and twiching from the taser. So I punked his ass for bing stupid and believing I would come to fight fair.)

HegemonKhan
July 17, 2011, 08:42 AM
the "kill argument" is laughable.

Awakening Priscilla could have (possibly) been killed by child-teen Raki while she slept, does this mean that teen-child Raki is superior to Awakened Priscilla? HELL NO. see how meaningless and pathetic/pitiful the "kill argument" is ?? In debate, this an embarrassing fallacy mistake to make.

how about another example:

me vs an UFC fighter

if the UFC fighter lets me, even I could knock him out and win the fight.

does this mean that I'm superior to him as a MMA fighter? HELL NO.

if he wanted to, he could have literally killed me, just as Teresa could have and did have (though chose not to) killed Priscilla numerous times.

The UFC fighter is superior to me, just as Teresa is superior to Priscilla.

-------------

Addditional closing that I forgot to make:

it's not who kills who, but who can defeat/best/pwn who, Priscilla failed over and over to defeat/best/pwn Teresa, as Teresa was superior to Priscilla. Yes, Priscilla did kill Teresa, but she never once defeated/bested/pwned Teresa, her kill of Teresa is meaningless for who is the superior, more powerful one.

lordoffantasy
August 01, 2011, 12:36 AM
Isn't Irene's analysis of their powers pretty much an end to the debate? Priscilla had the potential to surpass Theresa. In fact, Theresa herself was completely aware of that. She was about to kill Priscilla and then decided not to, while commenting on how soft she was getting >
http://www.mangakong.com/manga/Claymore/022.027/12

Considering Theresa died right after, the debate kind of ends at 'Priscilla may have been able to get stronger than her, but never really did'. Irene also partly blames the fact that Priscilla did manage to kill her on her 'decline' as a warrior because she failed to kill Priscilla when she quite obviously could. So as Claymores, Theresa was waaay stronger.

The only thing I'm unsure about is whether an awakened Theresa would be stronger than Priscilla is now, and notice Priscilla's power is quite... ridiculous. She completely annihilated the the merged thing of Beth and (Number 1 strength...) and one of the projectiles from the big Luciela/Rafaela thing, in seconds, while calling it a weak baby. Would Theresa have been able to do the same? And can Priscilla actually beat the whole Luciela/Rafaela being? She might be tiny compared to it but we all know that means nothing... if she could, I wouldn't be able to say Theresa would have been stronger than her.

Though I guess we'll never really know for sure. =/

the very fact the teresa was killed only because she let her guard down says volumes. teresa was so powerful that she was able to match a nearly past limit priscilla with only ten percent yoki. if she awoke, she would have been even more riddiculous.
priscilla may be powerful, but she would not have been able to so easily beat the merged awakened. i think that it was every bit as powerful as she was, however it was mindless, focusless, so it did occasional offensive bursts and let its yoki fill the area up. not ot mention that it continuously drained energy from everything it touched. and did oyu see what it was able to do when clare, in a badass yet still unanswered moment, took control of the mass and captured priscilla? it has completely restrained her.
prsicilla's main power, it seems, is her mass of yoki. the rason why she defeats enemies so easily is because she focuses her energy in massive bursts at her targets. however, if oyu listen closely to her words, it has a toll on her. she was constantly hungry, constantly, so much that she thoguht about eating other awakened, though flesh with yoki is repulsive to them. if she was denied sustenance for long enough, and kept on using her energy, she would be burnt out. the problem is that you would need an opponent with enough power and speed to drag out the battle. beore she knew it pricilla wouldn't be able to heal nor attack as opwerfully and quickly.

Tballack
January 05, 2013, 11:55 AM
I seriously don't understand why people have this arguement, we all watched and/or read the fight. Teresa wins this too easily. How did this start, Rubel says priscilla surpasses teresa but he never actually watched teresa fight just the usual rumours in the organization. Teresa made absolutely sure the organization never new of her strength, the same for her fellow claymores, she'd never released 10% in front of anyone before. When the organization list its strongest no 1s teresa was mentioned, but not even as the strongest, this shows that the organization didn't know her power. Before the fight Irene says Priscilla will surpass Teresa, that her latent ability his higher and stuff. First how do claymore's fight, they have certain speeds and strength at base level, when the release their yoma energy, they tap into the yoma in them to become stronger, so its like a kind of boost. 10% eye colour change, 30% face begins to distort, 50+% body begins to distort 70% mind begins to corrode, 80+% Awakening starts 100 % awakening completes = full power. At 100% they recieve the maximum boost from the yoma energy. Teresa had the ability to read every flow of yoki, hence the precog, she then had trouble with priscilla because priscilla could surpress her yoki, but she still won easily because her base form was stronger, faster and more skilled and experienced, this showed when teresa took a notch up and priscilla seemed to think she was getting slower but in reality, teresa was getting faster, still at base form. If priscilla had become a better warrior, she would have gained more experience and skill but will still be lower in strength and speed to teresa at base form. Priscilla then releases 10% of her yoki, this was enough to make teresa take notice, with this she still get owned with teresa at base form, meaning teresa base form > 10% boosted Priscilla in Speed and Power, priscilla breaks down, goes nuts and attacks teresa, at 30%, at this point Precog fails, Teresa notes that there is too much Yoma energy coming from prisiclla that she can't read it, so she proceeds to fight normally, Priscilla seems to be getting overwhelmed as evidenced by her constantly increasing her yoma energy, when she gets to 70-79%, base teresa begins to have trouble keeping up with her power, as though she is still able to maintain same speed but the body distortion advantage begins to play in (longer reach and stuff), and she seems to have trouble with the power. We can conclude that base Teresa = 70-79% Priscilla in Speed, Base Teresa is < 70-79% in Power. Teresa notices that she has to power up to remain alive, She releases 10% of her power, and the fight continues, still no Precog mind you. At this point Noel, Irene and Sophia arrive. Irene and Sophie exclaim that what is happening is unreal, that the 2 of them are monsters. (I'm combining things from anime and manga, as they see, to give u a clearer picture). Irene exclaims that One of the Yoma energy is MUCH MUCH MUCH greater than the other. Meaning either 10% Teresa is >>>>> than 70-79% Priscilla, or 70-79% Priscilla is >>>>>> than 10% Teresa, then they get within viewing range and see priscilla's level of degradation, Noel/Sophia exclaims is that Priscilla, Don't tell me she has...... Irene confirms that she hasn't awakened yet that if they can stop her then she could be reverted, then he stated that who in the world can stop her, indicating she suspected that Priscilla was the greater power (Notice that even though she was that close she couldn't tell who the greater power was because there was so much yoma energy that even teresa an expert at yomi reading can't read the extent. So her thinking priscilla is the greater power will have to do with her earlier statement that priscilla had the higher latent ability.) . At precisely the moment irene ponders who can beat her, she gets cut by teresa on one arm, in the midst of high speed slashes, Priscilla is blitzed by teresa rather easily, this happens about 2-3 times in total. Immediately Priscilla is overwhelmed, Irene, Noel and Sophia gasp, this further proves that Irene thought Priscilla was the greater power, then she makes a statement that (this might not be exactly what she says mind you, but it is the general idea)"Priscilla after releasing so much power, had her massive strength repelled by Teresa who released just enough for her eyes to change colour. Is this to true strength of teresa when her eyes change colour". What does this statement mean, it means that the greater power was after all Teresa, so going by what Irene said, 10% Teresa is Much Greater than 70-79% Teresa , I think her words were FAR BEYOND, which is even more than MUCH GREATER. so 10% Teresa is FAR BEYOND 70-79% Priscilla. From that statement, we can also tell that Irene never even knew the extent of 10% Teresa's power, she must have simply measured Priscilla's 100% against base Teresa. (Teresa say priscilla has potential to be a monster, but it is stated that teresa almost never goes up to 10% when she says she'd better do it against rosemary before she forgets how to do it, so it is fair to say Teresa probably doesn't know how much her strength is after 10%, and she said Priscilla would be a monster because well, priscilla is a monster in terms of ability). If Irene doesn't even know the extent of 10% Teresa then it renders her statement about Priscilla being capable of surpassing Teresa moot. Anyways event further progressed and Priscilla, frustrated at not being able to win, tapped into her inner madness (The whole, Papa, Mama thing she always does), then she goes over 80+%, at this point she tries a preemptive, teresa was still trying to understand the whole Papa, Mama thing, and she attacks, but while teresa is surprised, she still blocks it. Result is first preemptive attack failed because 10% teresa is FAR BEYOND priscilla at the point, then the awakening starts she drops her sword starts screaming in pain and Crying, she has clearly lost here, then she begs like all claymores do to be killed while still being human. Teresa while keeping some sort of honor code and shit releases her yoki back to 0, in order to deliver the final blow. Remember that we concluded that 70-79% Priscilla was = speed and > strength than base Teresa, and this time she was over 80+, which means >Speed and Strength than base teresa, then she tries a second preemptive, preemptive attack plus greater speed and power and of cos Teresa's hands are immediately cut off, and she is immediately decapitated. That's about how the fight went, Teresa is undoubtedly the stronger of the 2, with the steady rate at which powers increase when you increase your yoma energy it is possible that 100% priscilla will still have been defeated by 10% Teresa, if not, then she'd have to raise it to max 15% and she's stomp her. there is even a way to calc that 10% > 80% which means Teresa is at least 8 times stronger than priscilla, then 100% divide 8 = 12.5% it'd take Teresa to beat Priscilla and this isn't exactly right because 10% was said to be FAR BEYOND. Anyways look at Teresa's feats to back up her power, she cut through 2-5 of the organization, she cut the about 10 or so warriors sent to initially kill her. The organization gave the definition of an Abyssal One as a previous number 1 that awakened, while they might vary in strength, she still qualifies as an abyssal one, and she gets blitzed by Teresa at 10%, in shot by a simple movement of her hand, Teresa uses brute force to rip off an abyssal one's hand, and we know that low numbered claymore's while being able to cut metal (except Clarice it seems) find it diificult to cut the skin of normal awakened beings, and this is an abyssal level awakened being and teresa uses a hand to rip off Rosemary's hand, and awakened beings easily level large buildings, this means she'd break metal with brute strength and could have possibly defeated Rosemary with her bear hands, cos rosemary didn't even realize her hand had been ripped off. People bring up the argument that rosemary couldn't be considered an abyssal one. But more recently we find out another of teresa's feats, you only realize this if u think deeply enough. The organization used Priscilla's arm to reproduce the 3 they considered to be the strongest ever no 1s, Cassandra, Hysteria and Roxanne. The three were said to be abyssal level. Before Hysteria died.......again, she narrated how she died the first time, she says the warriors gathered and she was cutting them down, (we know Hysteria was called the Elegant, since she had the most beautiful technique + she was fast enough to completely blitz mira, who happens to be one of the fastest claymores in the verse). So she was cutting the warriors down because she was obviously faster than them, she said "There was no one there who could keep up with my speed, so even with me alone, i should have been able to massacre all of them, but the one who delivered the final blow to me was the then number 4 Rosemary". she then said "but it wasn't her who defeated me, even before i that final blow, i had recieved a blow fatal blow that dulled my movements towards the end". Now I quote her final words "Blood and Screams where everywhere on the hill of massacre, There, the strange figure of a single warrior caught and held my eye. Admist the Warriors stiff with fear, she alone was FAINTLY SMILING". The Key word here is FAINTLY SMILING, what does that remind you of, FAINT SMILE right?, so Teresa delivered the fatal blow to an abyssal class no 1, which means she could have totally defeated rosemary if she was an abyssal class, which she was. If you doubt that it was teresa being talked about, check who delivers the final blow ROSEMARY? yeah, the same rosemary, doesn't it suit teresa's personality the way she liked to hide from the organization that she delivered a fatal blow to hysteria but let someone else finish her off so she doesn't take the credit and the organization doesn't know about her strength, same thing after she killed Rosemary, the man from the organization asked, What happened to your uniform(note that after all the hits she purposely took from an abyssal one, she didn't have a scratch on her just her uniform roughened up), hope u didn't allow Rosemary awaken "teresa says, of course not, if a former no 1 awakened i wouldn't be alive here, that i just saw a few yoma on the way", meaning even the organization have been constantly kept in the dark about her power, plus all those who witnessed it got killed by Priscilla except Irene who went into hiding and Claire who became a claymore. Another feat by teresa, was when she was still a trainee, we've seen how they are all locked up and kept in the organization but she was constantly able to escape and runaway, this isn't even the feat i'm referring too, just a minor one. Remember Rafaela, she was said to be an expert in killing her yoki, even top yoki sensors like Galatea who can sense yoki from range(possibly across continent as she sensed Luciela and Easley's fight in the south from the organization in the east) couldn't sense her presence, she was used as an enforcer of the organization, to sneak up on renegade claymore and kill them, the never notice she's there, even irene didn't notice, plus she had power to rival Luciela, since they were sisters, and were the first failed experiment of the eventual Alica & Beth Program. Anyways, one of such times when Teresa escaped as a trainee, she came across rafaela and said "Are you human?" after rafael confirms that she knows of the organization, Teresa says he sensed her yoki but it was very small like it wasn't there, and rubel's words were that it was IMPOSSIBLE/FUTILE to track rafaela through yoki since she had killed it off, and teresa as a trainee sensed it, also Rafaela was surprised that a trainee would journey from the organization across a considerable distance to the town, while going through the wilderness, with wild animals and youma several times. All these are feats accomplished and we only know a little of her. Riful was calced to MACH 3000 (I was also like what the hell), here is a link to the calc http://www.narutoforums.com/blog.php?b=17277. we know Priscilla Blitzed Riful from a VERY VERY long distance away with riful being unable to react, and Teresa 12.5% > than Priscilla >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Alicia >>>> Mach 3075 (Riful). Just consider this and yo know that Claymore verse is not to be Messed wih, especially the lady with the FAINT SMILE.

Whirlzap
February 10, 2013, 10:27 PM
3. Rosemary. She intentionally awakened, so that she would be more powerful and surprise Teresa too, in order to help her kill Teresa. Unfortunately, Rosemary's having awakened already was already known by Teresa upon at least her approach towards rosemary, and poor Rosemary was pitifully weak, despite being an awakened rank 1, compared to GOD-POWERED Teresa. hehe.


Just like someone else said, Teresa was generally somewhere along the lines of Priscilla.
And it was shown that Priscilla could take down Abyssal Ones or equivalent powers with ease.
There can honestly be no certain confirmation of Awakened Rosemary's power level deduced since she WAS up against all-powerful Teresa.
It wouldn't matter if it Rosemary or Isley or Alicia or Beth, or any of the AOs.
Teresa would simply demolish them all, given her incredible and unrivaled power increase via 10% Yoki release.
Thus, Rosemary could have just been as powerful as any of the other AOs, but never had the chance simply because no one would against Teresa.
Don't forget, she was more powerful than any of the Claymores during Teresa's generation; judging from their strengths, probably the top 10 or so from Teresa's era were also from Rosemary's era, suggesting that Rosemary was more powerful than Irene, Noel, Sophia, etc etc
My evidence from here is that both Teresa and Rosemary were single digits when Hysteria was Rank Number 1.
The known progression of Rank 1 Claymore was Luciela/Rafaella->Hysteria->Rosemary->Teresa->Alicia/Beth.
That must have meant that Rank 4 Claymore at the time, Rosemary, eventually became the candidate after Rank 1 Hysteria (unawakened still) was killed.

Irene
December 23, 2013, 06:02 PM
If you look at the history of literature, there are many other nearly invincible warriors (like Teresa) who were killed while their guard was down, which makes their death so significant and tragic. The most notable example is in the medieval Middle High German epic, the Nibelungenlied, written around 1200 AD, where the famous hero Siegfried is killed by Hagen (Wagner's Der Ring des Nibelungen, famous especially for the 'Ride of the Valkyries' part, is based off of this).

Now, it is clearly emphasized that Teresa was in a sense "made soft" by her recent relationship with Clare. In my eyes this is not much different than what happens to Siegfried (not going to spoil the poem). Nevertheless, it is clear that her guard was down at the very least.

Since I have personally done battle with Teresa and was outmatched by her, and since I was nearly killed by Priscilla, I can say that Teresa is much more skilled and could outclass the Awakened Priscilla in direct combat.