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En Yang Ji
March 21, 2010, 10:29 PM
Jinchuuriki are pretty strong. The only problem I have with rating them, is their power seems to differ with their biju. Jinchuuriki have high-speed regeneration, high durability, speed and strength. They also are immune to genutsu and gain weird abilities.

They can shoot air at fast speeds, shoot chakra arms at people, and extremely powerful chakra blast. I the 9 tails and 8 tails abilities would be just under SM. IMO most cases powerful jutsu › power up

karthikmurs
March 21, 2010, 10:55 PM
They also are immune to genutsu and gain weird abilities.

Jinchuriki by default are not immune to genjutsu. Its a general misconception.

The fundamental rule to break out of genjutsu is to have someone disrupt the chakra flow in your brain which is controlled by the enemy. To disrupt this chakra, you need a partner. For jinchurikis, if they have sufficiently good control/friendship with their Bijus, they can ask them to disrupt the chakra and break out of genjutsu.

It would be wrong to assume "all" jinchurikis are immune to genjutsu defacto.

Darth Executor
March 21, 2010, 11:52 PM
I don't see a comparison at all. If anything, it just shows how much greater Jiraiya was than either Tsunade or Kakashi.


Jiraiya didn't have to deal with Deva who is so far above the other bodies it's not even funny. Once Deva came into the picture Jiraiya was finished. I don't think Kakashi is above jiraiya, but he's not far behind either. And tsunade didn't fight him at all so we can't say how it would've went if she had.

Black Mirror
March 22, 2010, 05:38 AM
hm, is there a reason why there is alwys only 1 girl in a team?

sakura and naruto,sasuke
hinata and kiba,shino
tenten and neji, lee
temari and gaara,kankurou
tsunade and jira,oro
rin and kakashi,obito
konan and nagato,yahiko

...wtf?

was there ever a team with 2 girls? (senseis don't count)

Xiraiya
March 22, 2010, 06:56 AM
hm, is there a reason why there is alwys only 1 girl in a team?

sakura and naruto,sasuke
hinata and kiba,shino
tenten and neji, lee
temari and gaara,kankurou
tsunade and jira,oro
rin and kakashi,obito
konan and nagato,yahiko

...wtf?

was there ever a team with 2 girls? (senseis don't count)

It's so that if Kishi ever decides on a romance he can quickly turn it into an annoying love triangle that never REALLY goes anywhere.

Weapon_X
March 22, 2010, 07:54 AM
hm, is there a reason why there is alwys only 1 girl in a team?

sakura and naruto,sasuke
hinata and kiba,shino
tenten and neji, lee
temari and gaara,kankurou
tsunade and jira,oro
rin and kakashi,obito
konan and nagato,yahiko

...wtf?

was there ever a team with 2 girls? (senseis don't count)

Yeah, Team Samui had 2 girls in it. Samui and Karui.

benelori
March 22, 2010, 11:05 AM
Jiraiya didn't have to deal with Deva who is so far above the other bodies it's not even funny. Once Deva came into the picture Jiraiya was finished. I don't think Kakashi is above jiraiya, but he's not far behind either. And tsunade didn't fight him at all so we can't say how it would've went if she had.

Pain fought Jiraiya in an intelligent manner back then...his best asset was his secret of the bodies...if he would've went all out against jirayia, the bodies would've been trapped...all of them...
Shinobi's of that caliber cannot be compared IMO...the ability itself doesn't really matter...Pain played his cards perfectly, so jirayia died
[hr]

What do you guys think is the best bloodline/power-up? Sharingan/MS, Sage Mode, Rinnegan, CS, Raikages Raiton power-up?

Rinnegan is the best I think...Sharingan has the ability to control Kyuubi which is badass, but Sage Mode also has its strengths...I would put Sage Mode around the Same as sharingan, but Rinnegan is definitely the most powerful

hakuthehedgehog
March 22, 2010, 11:41 AM
Rinnegan is better than anything we've seen so far in the manga IMO, that thing just wrecks shit up.
If Pain went all out against Jiraya from the start , he whould've used BT and Human to suck his soul and take all the info on him. GG

Zatono
March 22, 2010, 12:57 PM
Personally I think that Nagato was an idiot when it came to using the Rinnegan. It had SO much more potential, but he'd be to strong if he used it correctly, so Kishi had to nerf him.

For starters, the Rinnegan is supposed to give the user a mastery over all chakra nature manipulation, correct? All Nagato had to do was learn how to use the Rasengan, which shouldn't of been a problem for someone like him, and then just do what Naruto did to put them together. Nagato could of had 5 different ridiculously overpowered jutsu, but no. He had to be nerfed, and even then he was to strong to get killed, and had to suicide.

jdw
March 22, 2010, 01:02 PM
UCHIHA SASUKE -- THE TRUE DANGER OF EMS!

http://img228.imageshack.us/img228/2607/1dietogether.jpg

http://img714.imageshack.us/img714/5800/3madaraweeneedtotalk.jpg

http://img403.imageshack.us/img403/2938/2readywhenyouaresasuke.jpg

http://img214.imageshack.us/img214/6053/4wantitachieyes.jpg

http://img181.imageshack.us/img181/5265/6okiwantafavor.jpg

http://img30.imageshack.us/img30/4139/5sasukesittingdowncopy.jpg

http://img693.imageshack.us/img693/3335/7youaregenerous.jpg

http://img260.imageshack.us/img260/6928/whatareyoutryingtosay.jpg

http://img230.imageshack.us/img230/2613/whatareyoutalkingabout.jpg

http://img693.imageshack.us/img693/402/havetobelying.jpg

http://img101.imageshack.us/img101/2/donttouchme.jpg

http://img717.imageshack.us/img717/5159/rememberyourpromise.jpg

http://img301.imageshack.us/img301/5600/sasukefallsover.jpg

http://img510.imageshack.us/img510/373/14151.jpg

http://img528.imageshack.us/img528/2526/tiedyouup.jpg

http://img716.imageshack.us/img716/3340/cutrope.jpg

http://img693.imageshack.us/img693/3918/29669401.jpg

http://img242.imageshack.us/img242/1660/17475612.jpg

http://img265.imageshack.us/img265/2625/1415s.jpg

Manga Chapter--Artistic 488 Prediction

hakuthehedgehog
March 22, 2010, 01:31 PM
Personally I think that Nagato was an idiot when it came to using the Rinnegan. It had SO much more potential, but he'd be to strong if he used it correctly, so Kishi had to nerf him.

For starters, the Rinnegan is supposed to give the user a mastery over all chakra nature manipulation, correct? All Nagato had to do was learn how to use the Rasengan, which shouldn't of been a problem for someone like him, and then just do what Naruto did to put them together. Nagato could of had 5 different ridiculously overpowered jutsu, but no. He had to be nerfed, and even then he was to strong to get killed, and had to suicide.

Nagato was a chakra beast, that is true, but spamming jutsu like FRS whould be tiring, even for him.
Also, I doubt he could learn how to make complete rasegan with elements: even geniuses like Minato and Jiraya couldn't, maybe the rinnegan doesn't give control over much more advanced chakra recompositions.
P.S:Plus, Nagato shouldn't crap on Naruto's powers like that, don't you agree?

NAM61
March 22, 2010, 03:08 PM
Personally I think that Nagato was an idiot when it came to using the Rinnegan. It had SO much more potential, but he'd be to strong if he used it correctly, so Kishi had to nerf him.

For starters, the Rinnegan is supposed to give the user a mastery over all chakra nature manipulation, correct? All Nagato had to do was learn how to use the Rasengan, which shouldn't of been a problem for someone like him, and then just do what Naruto did to put them together. Nagato could of had 5 different ridiculously overpowered jutsu, but no. He had to be nerfed, and even then he was to strong to get killed, and had to suicide.

his justsus were all ore powerful then any element manipulation jutsu. so he had no need for it with the 6 abilities the rinnegan granted him. with deva pains ability he could mostly counter everything. so even if he knew the rasengan he would not have used it. he seemed to like to use the ability's the 6 paths had.

7thTatamiMat
March 22, 2010, 03:40 PM
Thinking over the last issue, particularly these panels (http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/487/02/) with Sasuke and Karin, is it possible Naruto and Sasuke have a plan? Since these two only talk with their fists to read what's in each other's hearts, it's possible that the last go-round they had a chat, and maybe Itachi's gift also showed up to provide some direction to Sasuke as to who the real villian is. Really, with Madara and Zetsu around, the only way they could communicate securely is through their fists. So are the two possibly now in league to take Madara down with Sasuke (like Itachi) on the inside? And maybe getting Itachi's eyes are part of that solution to defeating Madara. Even Madara seem susupicious now of Sasuke's sudden desire to get Itachi's eyes. Just a hunch, but why would you show Karin in that panel. Does she detect a change in Sasuke's chakra? Sasuke went from one moment from a frothing maniac who tried to punch a chidori through his ex-teammate's head (after putting one through his current teammate's chest) and, but for Kamui, would have killed his sensei but then calms down to hear what Naruto has to say? And that look and then smirk of Sasuke smacks of conspiracy. Just blue skying, but something happened/was discussed between the two when the fists met but we'll have to wait to read about it.

P.S. At the hang-out, anyone else think that skeletal structure is the fossilized remains of the Jubbi?

Pervy Sage
March 22, 2010, 03:49 PM
Thinking over the last issue, particularly these panels (http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/487/02/) with Sasuke and Karin, is it possible Naruto and Sasuke have a plan? Since these two only talk with their fists to read what's in each other's hearts, it's possible that the last go-round they had a chat, and maybe Itachi's gift also showed up to provide some direction to Sasuke as to who the real villian is. Really, with Madara and Zetsu around, the only way they could communicate securely is through their fists. So are the two possibly now in league to take Madara down with Sasuke (like Itachi) on the inside? And maybe getting Itachi's eyes are part of that solution to defeating Madara. Even Madara seem susupicious now of Sasuke's sudden desire to get Itachi's eyes. Just a hunch, but why would you show Karin in that panel. Does she detect a change in Sasuke's chakra? Sasuke went from one moment from a frothing maniac who tried to punch a chidori through his ex-teammate's head (after putting one through his current teammate's chest) and, but for Kamui, would have killed his sensei but then calms down to hear what Naruto has to say? And that look and then smirk of Sasuke smacks of conspiracy. Just blue skying, but something happened/was discussed between the two when the fists met but we'll have to wait to read about it.

P.S. At the hang-out, anyone else think that skeletal structure is the fossilized remains of the Jubbi?

I've been wondering about this myself.. It would be kinda awesome, though I'd hate to miss the Naruto-Sasuke fight.
The Juubi's body was sealed by the Rikudō Sennin and became the moon, so it's probably just a huge cow.... or something.. :D

Tiraga
March 22, 2010, 03:53 PM
Jiraiya didn't have to deal with Deva who is so far above the other bodies it's not even funny. Once Deva came into the picture Jiraiya was finished. I don't think Kakashi is above jiraiya, but he's not far behind either. And tsunade didn't fight him at all so we can't say how it would've went if she had.

Tsunade is a pummelmachine as a closecombat shinobi... and against Shinra Tensei she would end up the same as the large frog summons. The only thing she could do is heal the villagers with all her might at that time :amuse She is an excellent Hokage, but in combat she is very limited, just like Rock Lee (but atleast he got some superhuman speed :D). But comparing her combat skills to Jiraiya based on what we know about her, she is quite some blocks below him :notrust

But you're right about Kakashi tho. He's an excellent tactician and has some a variable assortment of tricks ;) 1000 years of pain ftw! :p

hakuthehedgehog
March 22, 2010, 04:09 PM
Tsunade is a pummelmachine as a closecombat shinobi... and against Shinra Tensei she would end up the same as the large frog summons. The only thing she could do is heal the villagers with all her might at that time :amuse She is an excellent Hokage, but in combat she is very limited, just like Rock Lee (but atleast he got some superhuman speed :D). But comparing her combat skills to Jiraiya based on what we know about her, she is quite some blocks below him :notrust

But you're right about Kakashi tho. He's an excellent tactician and has some a variable assortment of tricks ;) 1000 years of pain ftw! :p

We don't know if ST whould work against Tsunade because she could use chakra on her feet in order to stay still, or use her boobs Katsuyu to make the technique worthless.
Also, she is expert in genjutsu, which could make and opening on the Pain's bodies and most of the damage pain can give can probably be quickly healed by herself.
Tsunade should be an awesome fighter, but Kishi hates the women of this manga.

Delbi
March 22, 2010, 04:16 PM
Tsuande's biggest problem in this manga is she lacks offensive ninjutsu. All the good fighers either have great offenisve ninjutsu, are a Jinchuriki, or the Raikage or Gai. Taijutsu and medical jutsu can only get you so far.

AlB
March 22, 2010, 04:27 PM
I dont understand why it took madara 100yrs to come up with this plan considering he knew about bijuus 100 yrs ago????

1st: Nagato wasn't born hence sealing statue didn't exist
2nd: He was probably recovering from the humiliating fight with hashirama. I mean he summond 9 tails and still got raped LOLZ
3rd: with abovementioned humiliating harrasment by hashirama still fresh in the mind of the shinobi world I don't think there would be a single madman who would join him.
4th: sarutobi was at his peak during that period and he was said to be stronger than hashirama, imagine what he would do to battle worn madara LOLZ #2
5th: uchiha clan was alive and kicking - that's a horde of potential rivals in term of MS.

I really hope we will find out more about madara's plans next chapter but I seriously consider this 10 tail thing to be a typical bullshit.

btw. isn't it time for you to change a name? :notrust

White Silver King
March 22, 2010, 06:09 PM
All the good fighers either have great offenisve ninjutsu, are a Jinchuriki, or the Raikage or Gai. Taijutsu and medical jutsu can only get you so far.
Uhm, Gai has shown Taijutsu can get you far, so medical ninjutsu is a bonus. Besides there's not a single character in the series stronger than Tsunade (I don't Naruto in Sage Mode is physically stronger than her, and if he is it's just becasue he's the main character).

kingplaya(minato)
March 22, 2010, 06:21 PM
@hakuthehedgehog(how did u come about this name¿¿¿), where was it said tsunade is great at genjustu, would be nice to get a link cuz i don't remember anything like that... If it's her great chakra control u're using just check out sakura and u'll know what i think about that...
I agree she should be a great fighter but kishi needs to make her go all out to shut critics up(like me)..

demons_halo
March 22, 2010, 06:33 PM
seriously now guys, who of the 3 sannins were the strongest? I mean sure, tsunade has her "I can't die seal no jutsu", jiraya has his sage mode and oro was a pure immortal! yet still who do you think would have won in an all out battle?!

kingplaya(minato)
March 22, 2010, 07:03 PM
Uhm, Gai has shown Taijutsu can get you far, so medical ninjutsu is a bonus. Besides there's not a single character in the series stronger than Tsunade (I don't Naruto in Sage Mode is physically stronger than her, and if he is it's just becasue he's the main character).

Tsunade's taijustu isn't special either and her medical justus are not really offence orientated... She(kishi) needs to show more of what she can do cuz i believe she hasn't shown anything that would qualify her as a sannin apart from her summoning...yet.
[hr]

seriously now guys, who of the 3 sannins were the strongest? I mean sure, tsunade has her "I can't die seal no jutsu", jiraya has his sage mode and oro was a pure immortal! yet still who do you think would have won in an all out battle?!

J-man all the waaay!!!!!

karthikmurs
March 22, 2010, 07:09 PM
It would be a tie if we go my Japanese myth.. :D So, I side with it.. :D :D

kingplaya(minato)
March 22, 2010, 07:15 PM
It would be a tie if we go my Japanese myth.. :D So, I side with it.. :D :D

How so?... Jiraiya pawns tsunade then outlasts oro... Simple!(i'm a maniac 4 j-man so i can't accept any other outcome...)

Poneglyph420
March 22, 2010, 07:29 PM
Head to head?? hmm I think if it's all out, Oro gets a far better chance then just 1v1.
I'd love to think Jiraiya would mop the floor, but pretty much close in and with time.
Both of which his fellow sennins would nullify..

Maybe a tie.. but if not I'd say ORO.

elitefox
March 22, 2010, 07:37 PM
Head to head?? hmm I think if it's all out, Oro gets a far better chance then just 1v1.
I'd love to think Jiraiya would mop the floor, but pretty much close in and with time.
Both of which his fellow sennins would nullify..

Maybe a tie.. but if not I'd say ORO.

The only problem with oro is how to kill him.

Where do you cut him or slice him to actually kill him
the rest is easy

the snakes will be like food to the sage mode lol


J man has 3 giant toads too


but the best is if kyubi naruto blast them all :D

Poneglyph420
March 22, 2010, 07:42 PM
That would indeed be the best, if Naruto slapped them all around.
I'd say 1v1 Jiraiya has an advantage if he has time to use his sage powers...

Poor Tsunade, everyone underestimates her (me included)

karthikmurs
March 22, 2010, 07:48 PM
I'd say Jiraya might win.. At least against Tsunade (am in the same club too. I underestimate Tsunade severely :P). But against Oro, as elitefoc and Poneglyph pointed out), its difficult to guess. No wonder why Jiraya has always been failing to get orochi back.. Somehow, I am slightly inclined towards Jiraya.. Seeing his fight with pain really added rep towards him.

And man Orochi, I just love that guy.. His combat techniques are "LEGENDARY"..

kingplaya(minato)
March 22, 2010, 08:00 PM
I'd say Jiraya might win.. At least against Tsunade (am in the same club too. I underestimate Tsunade severely :P). But against Oro, as elitefoc and Poneglyph pointed out), its difficult to guess. No wonder why Jiraya has always been failing to get orochi back.. Somehow, I am slightly inclined towards Jiraya.. Seeing his fight with pain really added rep towards him.

And man Orochi, I just love that guy.. His combat techniques are "LEGENDARY"..

Jiraiya only failed to bring oro back once and then gave up(ain't naruto at all) he didn't keep trying...
Oro was a snake and moved from place to place so it's kinda hard getting him...
Anyways, if it's an all out fight btw the three then jiraiya wins as he has more chakra than the other two... Tsunade would keep on getting hit and just die from the exhaustion of re-healing herself, oro's a beast but his body's gonna kick in and give him trouble...
And if it's 1on1 jiraiya still wins... Tsunade is a sakura here(somewhat) so jiraiya would have real trouble with oro but at the end of the day still win it.

White Silver King
March 22, 2010, 08:13 PM
Jiraiya only failed to bring oro back once and then gave up(ain't naruto at all) he didn't keep trying...
Oro was a snake and moved from place to place so it's kinda hard getting him...
Anyways, if it's an all out fight btw the three then jiraiya wins as he has more chakra than the other two... Tsunade would keep on getting hit and just die from the exhaustion of re-healing herself, oro's a beast but his body's gonna kick in and give him trouble...
And if it's 1on1 jiraiya still wins... Tsunade is a sakura here(somewhat) so jiraiya would have real trouble with oro but at the end of the day still win it.

I've been a pretty big fan of Tsunade ever since she picked up Gamas humungo knife and bitched owned Manda with it, pretty much hate Jiraiya (reminds me too much of Naruto for me to like him), and I'm fond of Orochimaru. So in terms of power I think Oro would win (he's beaten Jiraiya before and matched him during the legendary 3-way without the use of Jutsu) but I hope Tsunade would show some kick ass moves that would make her stonger than all the above.

Jack Van Burace
March 22, 2010, 08:14 PM
Tsunade's taijustu isn't special either and her medical justus are not really offence orientated... She(kishi) needs to show more of what she can do cuz i believe she hasn't shown anything that would qualify her as a sannin apart from her summoning...yet.

Well, she reversed the A-bomb jutsu from Pain, saving all the villagers hit by it from dieing. The village was destroyed, but nobody died. Imo, that's a hell of a power. It's equivalent to Pain's power, except it made her go into a coma. But I give her a break: it's easier to destroy than to build. Nobody in the world would ever match that!

jdw
March 22, 2010, 08:18 PM
Well, she reversed the A-bomb jutsu from Pain, saving all the villagers hit by it from dieing. The village was destroyed, but nobody died. Imo, that's a hell of a power. It's equivalent to Pain's power, except it made her go into a coma. But I give her a break: it's easier to destroy than to build. Nobody in the world would ever match that!

I am not sure if we can say no one died due to Tsunade's jutsu. Plenty of people died off-panel. I am sure many of them died in the large Shinra Tensei. Nagato brought them back to life (http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/449/03/) with his usage of Gedo Rinne Tensei (http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/449/01/).

Poneglyph420
March 22, 2010, 08:21 PM
If we are discussing who can "pick up the pieces" the best Tsunade has a clear advantage. But I still can't see in actual head to head combat her matching J man or Oro.

I still think Oro has an edge, a unknown factor if you will..

Delbi
March 22, 2010, 08:48 PM
Orochimaru lacks Jiraiya pure offensive power, but Orochimaru is also incredibly hard to kill. Jiraiya and Tsuande really have nothing able to kill him unless Jiraiya can get the Frog Song off. And even then, a simple stab wound won't kill him, he'd likely have to incinerate his entire body or seal him somehow like how Itachi did.

everton
March 22, 2010, 10:22 PM
http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/453/18/
Madara says he wants to sync Sasuke with gedo mazo meaning he probably wants to give him rinnegan.

Delbi
March 22, 2010, 10:28 PM
http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/453/18/
Madara says he wants to sync Sasuke with gedo mazo meaning he probably wants to give him rinnegan.

Doubtful, we already know Madara is giving Sasuke Itachi's eyes so he can have EMS, he's not going to get the Rinnegan, if he did, the alliance should just give up now.

In any event, syncing him with Gedo could be nothing more than just having him able to help in the sealing ritual.

DarkPrinceRevan
March 23, 2010, 12:38 AM
Orochimaru lacks Jiraiya pure offensive power, but Orochimaru is also incredibly hard to kill. Jiraiya and Tsuande really have nothing able to kill him unless Jiraiya can get the Frog Song off. And even then, a simple stab wound won't kill him, he'd likely have to incinerate his entire body or seal him somehow like how Itachi did.

in sage mode jiraya has access to the Sage Art: Goemon which could incinerate oro and the super great ball rasengan has enough destructive power to easily hollow out a mountain

Delbi
March 23, 2010, 12:45 AM
in sage mode jiraya has access to the Sage Art: Goemon which could incinerate oro and the super great ball rasengan has enough destructive power to easily hollow out a mountain

Need we go through all the things Orochimaru has survived? Oral Rebirth was capable of letting Sasuke live through Ameratsu, Orochimaru is even more skilled with it, so unless he is completely incapcitated with Frog Song, Jiraiya isn't going to kill him.

Eriatarka
March 23, 2010, 12:50 AM
Hello MH!

Long time lurker, first time poster giving my views on the whole "Madara & Rinnegan" situation.

Not sure if anyone elaborated about this, since I'm feeling too lazy to look through posts.

Anyways, as well all know, when Nagato controlled his "Bodies", each recieved the Rinnegan, but we really don't know how exactly those bodies got the Rinnegan.

Either once he placed the black chakra rods inside the bodies, their eyes morphed into the Rinnegan, or that Nagato someone created more eyes, took out his host's eye's, and replaced them with the Rinnegan.

What we can assume though, is that once the controlled body stops function (Chakra rods taken out), they still retain the Rinnegan eyes ( see: http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/406/04/ ).

So, we can assume that aside from Nagato's and Yahiko's bodies, the other 6 bodies ( I say 6, because of the 2xsummon bodies, Demon, Hell, Hungry, & human) should be in Konoha's possession, still containing the Rinnegan eyes.

What we don't know is that, if the eyes we're to be taken out, and implanted into someone else, they would still function to a certain degree or not. Either the eyes don't work w/o Nagato controlling the bodies, the eyes do work, but you only gain the abilities from said bodies (Take out Demon's eyes, get demon's power), or you gain all Rinnegan's features cause it's the Rinnegan eyes.

Also, who's to say that Nagato may have stock piled some bodies with Rinnegan eyes, or just the eyes just in case?

Since Madara is looking to get his hands on them, he's either going to need the original (Nagato's eyes), or just eyes from one of the bodies in Konoha (Just warp in, take bodies, warp out), or maybe just the eyes from Nagato's extra bodies assuming he has any.

Also, we don't know if Konoha destroyed the bodies or not.

I know this seems like it's stretching it, but let's just think about all the possibilities/scenarios with the Rinnegan.

DarkPrinceRevan
March 23, 2010, 12:53 AM
Need we go through all the things Orochimaru has survived? Oral Rebirth was capable of letting Sasuke live through Ameratsu, Orochimaru is even more skilled with it, so unless he is completely incapcitated with Frog Song, Jiraiya isn't going to kill him.

you said jiraya doesnt have anything that could kill him apart from incinerating him and i proved two jutsu's that could do that, if were gonna start saying how many ways he can dodge said them then thats a different matter

Delbi
March 23, 2010, 02:33 AM
you said jiraya doesnt have anything that could kill him apart from incinerating him and i proved two jutsu's that could do that, if were gonna start saying how many ways he can dodge said them then thats a different matter

Orochimaru has survived powerful attacks before, what actually killed him was a sealing sword. Thus far, no physical attack has shown the ability to kill him. He's been torn in half, lit on fire, had chakra bullets launched at him, etc etc, and yet he didn't die. Jiraiya's Super Great Ball Rasengan and Goemon may or may not be able to destroy Orochimaru. In either case, he'd most likely get hit with either of them and just spawn a new body, meaning they can't kill him.

M3J
March 23, 2010, 02:40 AM
I don't think the Sword of Totsuga killed Orochimaru. Rather, he's just sealed. But that's my opinion anyway as I assume being sealed does not mean being killed.

Delbi
March 23, 2010, 02:58 AM
I don't think the Sword of Totsuga killed Orochimaru. Rather, he's just sealed. But that's my opinion anyway as I assume being sealed does not mean being killed.

Well yes hes probably not dead, but he's not going to be coming back to the world of the living any time soon.

IMO, I don't think Orochimaru can ever really be killed. He can be stopped and sealed like Itachi did, but I don't really think he's capable of being killed. Even his remains that Kabuto absorbed had a mind of their own more or less, showing that even without a soul, his body could live on like a parasite.

DarkPrinceRevan
March 23, 2010, 03:09 AM
Orochimaru has survived powerful attacks before, what actually killed him was a sealing sword. Thus far, no physical attack has shown the ability to kill him. He's been torn in half, lit on fire, had chakra bullets launched at him, etc etc, and yet he didn't die. Jiraiya's Super Great Ball Rasengan and Goemon may or may not be able to destroy Orochimaru. In either case, he'd most likely get hit with either of them and just spawn a new body, meaning they can't kill him.

by orochimaru's own admission the 4tails chakra blast wouldve killed him directly or via the feedback if not for the shields he summoned. orochimaru has great survivability ill give him that but hes killable.

Destined_One
March 23, 2010, 04:08 AM
by orochimaru's own admission the 4tails chakra blast wouldve killed him directly or via the feedback if not for the shields he summoned. orochimaru has great survivability ill give him that but hes killable.

Everyone is killable. Id say the frog song, and decapitation would do the trick. However I think what Delbi, was suggesting was he is hugely resilient to physical damage. He has taken a direct hit from Tsunade, who would kill almost every other ninja, been sliced and stabbed, yet reformed. He even laughed at Itachi when he cut him with 'The Sword of Totsuka', claiming an attack like that is nothing to him. Unfortunately for him, it possessed sealing powers. Also Naruto's chakra blast, is easily one of the top 3 strongest jutsu's, in terms of sheer damage, alongside Shinra Tensei & Chibaku Tensei. So being killed by that doesn't seem to tarnish his reputation as a tank.

Though, I'm really interested to see how resilient Kabuto is going to be. He already possessed incredible healing power's. Now he has the white snake ability. If he learns to counter genjutsu, I wonder how Sasuke would defeat him. Unless we learn that his arrows seal you lol.

kingplaya(minato)
March 23, 2010, 05:49 AM
Orochimaru has survived powerful attacks before, what actually killed him was a sealing sword. Thus far, no physical attack has shown the ability to kill him. He's been torn in half, lit on fire, had chakra bullets launched at him, etc etc, and yet he didn't die. Jiraiya's Super Great Ball Rasengan and Goemon may or may not be able to destroy Orochimaru. In either case, he'd most likely get hit with either of them and just spawn a new body, meaning they can't kill him.

He will run out of chakra sooner or later as he can go on forever... U make it seem as if he's just unkillable through physical attacks when he said the 9-tails chakra blast would kill him... Not saying jiraiya has a powerful attack on that level but just pointing out that there's a limit to the amount of attack he can take...even physically.

Xiraiya
March 23, 2010, 05:57 AM
I personally think that given the fact Tsunade had surprisingly awesome stats, that we have not really seen her at her best or in a battle where she didn't need to worry about others.

Orochimaru is very killable, the problem is he worked fast so he got out of every situation recieving minimal damage, If he stood still and took a direct hit from a Tsunade kick I would say he'd be down for the count.

He's quick and deceitful more than anything.

Delbi
March 23, 2010, 06:08 AM
He will run out of chakra sooner or later as he can go on forever... U make it seem as if he's just unkillable through physical attacks when he said the 9-tails chakra blast would kill him... Not saying jiraiya has a powerful attack on that level but just pointing out that there's a limit to the amount of attack he can take...even physically.

True, but he was able to soften the nine tails blast with the three gates he put up.

Basically, Orochimaru is extremely hard to kill. If Jiraiya was capable of killing him, he would have. The fact that he didn't after nearly 20 years tells me he wasn't capable of killing his old teammates.
[hr]

I personally think that given the fact Tsunade had surprisingly awesome stats, that we have not really seen her at her best or in a battle where she didn't need to worry about others.

Orochimaru is very killable, the problem is he worked fast so he got out of every situation recieving minimal damage, If he stood still and took a direct hit from a Tsunade kick I would say he'd be down for the count.

He's quick and deceitful more than anything.

Tsuande landed multiple blows on him and couldn't kill him. His body is extremely flexable and what not, so regular punches don't affect him like they would others.

He got torn in half by the Kyuubi and it didn't affect him in the slightest. Keep that in mind

roggie
March 23, 2010, 06:12 AM
Naruto's FRS probably would finish Orochimaru. And anyother person in Narutoverse with the exception of Madara rs.
Perhaps Naruto will learn the Fourth's jutsu and maybe eventually do a Space/Time Rasenshuriken haha just kiddin folks

Delbi
March 23, 2010, 06:36 AM
Tsunade can't get her position once another hokage has been 'officially' appointed... But as at now her position's still safe but she must wake up soon to knock some sence in2 sakura...

Kages do not lose their title even once another Kage has been elected. Tsuande will always be a Hokage, just once Kakashi becomes the active Hokage she no longer has the duties of the active one, so she's more or less free from the paper work and decision making of the villages ninja and what not.


Umm... Isn't that the same thing?... Her reign as hokage would still end whichever way u put it...

Yes, but if Kakashi were to die, she'd be made the Hokage again, thats what happened with Minato and Sarturobi.

People would still address her as Hokage-sama and whatnot, she'd probably still be involved in decision making, and since she would have the same rank as Kakashi she wouldn't have to answer to him.

Kakashi would just be the active Hokage, and would thus have all the duties. Tsuande would lack the duties, but still get all the perks.

jdw
March 23, 2010, 06:51 AM
in sage mode jiraya has access to the Sage Art: Goemon which could incinerate oro and the super great ball rasengan has enough destructive power to easily hollow out a mountain

I think that is something that could certainly kill Oro. I'd be willing to bet money on it, but we'll never know anyway :mad

benelori
March 23, 2010, 06:59 AM
I think what Oro's biggest advantage is or was...The White Snake...he could get out of his body in any situation, so I dare say a giant oodama rasengan wouldn't be enough, but FRS would...that body is formed of several snakes from which he can regenerate himself...

And about Madara being the only one who could take on FRS...well there's kakashi, too...he can easily teleport away any direct attack

3c
March 23, 2010, 07:00 AM
I think Orochimaru is killable like any other ninja, he's just really hard to actually hit with a technique's full power. Also I call bullshit on Orochimaru surviving Tsunade's series of punches. Although in the manga she hardly punched him as many times as in the anime, but she still landed a few punches IIRC. Yet Orochimaru himself said only a few chapters earlier that a real kick/punch from Tsunade would kill him. I remember reacting to his survival when I first watched the scene many years ago, and I still wonder how on earth he survived. Because Orochimaru didn't really use any survival techniques like henge/bunshins etc. He just stood there and got punched in the face. The only conclusion can really be that Tsunade didn't hit to kill, even if it sounds absurd.

Oh, and the Sage Oodama Rasengan would finish of anyone. It took out boss summons, enough said.

EDIT: Actually checked it now. Tsunade only punched him once in the manga, although it was a good punch in the face (http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/170/19/). And Orochimaru said "Even one hit can end your life (http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/164/04/)". Though it sounds like he's talking about her hits in general, not specifically about Kabuto, but how her hits would affect anyone. I guess it's not that weird that he survived then, as he was only hit once, and his durability is legendary.

benelori
March 23, 2010, 07:04 AM
^^About that Tsunade battle...I don't know to what extent did her regeneration jutsu heal her arms, but her right arm was injured by Kabuto...but even so if Tsunade regenerated herself entirely, than lack of chakra and stamina might explain the whole deal...Orochimaru taking all those hits is not a surprsise since he can regenerate himself anytime with his snakes, the best moment is when he got sliced in half by Naruto 4 tails...

kingplaya(minato)
March 23, 2010, 07:30 AM
True, but he was able to soften the nine tails blast with the three gates he put up.

Basically, Orochimaru is extremely hard to kill. If Jiraiya was capable of killing him, he would have. The fact that he didn't after nearly 20 years tells me he wasn't capable of killing his old teammates.


Hey, i didn't say jiraiya would solo him and just keep on pummeling him without reply...
They are almost equal and as jiraiya doesn't possess the sharingan(thank God!) so it's gonna be a long battle with jiraiya suffering some hits but ultimately jiraiya wins...
And as to why he hadn't killed oro since, oro changed hide-outs and hard to find and why would u wanna risk your life like that when oro's not exactly a genin and u could just keep track of him...
[hr]

Kages do not lose their title even once another Kage has been elected. Tsuande will always be a Hokage, just once Kakashi becomes the active Hokage she no longer has the duties of the active one, so she's more or less free from the paper work and decision making of the villages ninja and what not.



Yes, but if Kakashi were to die, she'd be made the Hokage again, thats what happened with Minato and Sarturobi.

People would still address her as Hokage-sama and whatnot, she'd probably still be involved in decision making, and since she would have the same rank as Kakashi she wouldn't have to answer to him.

Kakashi would just be the active Hokage, and would thus have all the duties. Tsuande would lack the duties, but still get all the perks.

But her current reign ends so she'll just be a former hokage...
Also, if kakashi dies then it's not automatic that she'd get her position back if there're other qualified ninjas waiting(naruto?)
What happened with minato sarutobi case was that no1 was strong enough to continue in minato's stead...

DarkPrinceRevan
March 23, 2010, 09:49 AM
True, but he was able to soften the nine tails blast with the three gates he put up.

Basically, Orochimaru is extremely hard to kill. If Jiraiya was capable of killing him, he would have. The fact that he didn't after nearly 20 years tells me he wasn't capable of killing his old teammates.

thats abit much to say that he couldnt kill him in twenty years when we've only seen that they've fight only once since he initially left the village and both sides were handicapped. and i wont go into the severity of how bad they were handicapped ill just say orochimaru still had the edge cause his body is so heavily modified over jiraya's body.

anyways i hold orochimaru to the same standard, if he had the power and position to kill him and didnt or jiraya couldnt be killed at the time, then its his own fault jiraya was still a torn in side.

kingplaya(minato)
March 23, 2010, 10:45 AM
thats abit much to say that he couldnt kill him in twenty years when we've only seen that they've fight only once since he initially left the village and both sides were handicapped. and i wont go into the severity of how bad they were handicapped ill just say orochimaru still had the edge cause his body is so heavily modified over jiraya's body.

anyways i hold orochimaru to the same standard, if he had the power and position to kill him and didnt or jiraya couldnt be killed at the time, then its his own fault jiraya was still a torn in side.

U hit it straight on my brother!... Jiraiya was a threat to oro and wasn't hiding the way oro was... If oro could take him on then he'd have done so as jiraiya would be easier to find...

Darth Executor
March 23, 2010, 11:36 AM
U hit it straight on my brother!... Jiraiya was a threat to oro and wasn't hiding the way oro was... If oro could take him on then he'd have done so as jiraiya would be easier to find...

Actually Oro had a very low opinion of Jiraiya so it's more like he didn't think he needed to go after jiraiya rather than that he couldn't. Plus, oro was a criminal on the hit list of the largest major village, so he had reasons other than jiraiya to stay hidden.

karthikmurs
March 23, 2010, 11:37 AM
U hit it straight on my brother!... Jiraiya was a threat to oro and wasn't hiding the way oro was... If oro could take him on then he'd have done so as jiraiya would be easier to find...

He joined akatsuki.. So he was bound by *orders*.. And later on, after he left, he was planning on destroying Konoha.. For good. He had no time to go after Jiraya, who would have done no harm to him.. So, even if he knew where Jiraya was, I doubt if he would have tailed him and finished him off..

Igniel
March 23, 2010, 06:51 PM
Actually Oro had a very low opinion of Jiraiya so it's more like he didn't think he needed to go after jiraiya rather than that he couldn't. Plus, oro was a criminal on the hit list of the largest major village, so he had reasons other than jiraiya to stay hidden.

Speaking of low opinions, Jiraiya & Oro have/had a similar relationship as Naruto & Sasuke. Kakashi even states this when Naruto & Sasuke fought atop the hospital. There are many similarities between their relationships & personalities.

Zatono
March 23, 2010, 07:16 PM
Though, I'm really interested to see how resilient Kabuto is going to be. He already possessed incredible healing power's. Now he has the white snake ability. If he learns to counter genjutsu, I wonder how Sasuke would defeat him. Unless we learn that his arrows seal you lol.

I pretty much think that Kabuto is just going to be fodder for Sasuke with EMS. At this point, it's almost a guarantee. Sure, they'll probably have an alright fight for a couple of chapters, but then it'll just get extremely one sided and Sasuke will obliterate him.

Also, about the Orochimaru durability topic, I think that he can take any type of slash, or any damage to any part of his body as long as he can react in time to shed his old body. Any attack that attacks him as a whole, however, is a completely different story. A giant rasegan would work, but on the other hand, something like Amaterasu wouldn't, since he can just get out of his body like this. http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/294/08/

En Yang Ji
March 23, 2010, 07:30 PM
I hope Kabuto is searching for more power, like Oro did. As it is, Kabuto will have Oro's endurance, healing powers, snakes and slightly above average taijutsu. He needs a lot more than that to fight Sasuke and his MS.

Zatono
March 23, 2010, 07:37 PM
Actually, don't forget that Kabuto has his medical ninja type of fighting to help him out.

http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/164/08/
http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/164/12/
http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/164/13/

karthikmurs
March 23, 2010, 07:41 PM
I hope Kabuto is searching for more power, like Oro did. As it is, Kabuto will have Oro's endurance, healing powers, snakes and slightly above average taijutsu. He needs a lot more than that to fight Sasuke and his MS.

Nope. Orochi actually dies even before his full potential was shown to us.. Now that he is back (with a bang) no doubt kishi has a big surprise in store for us. And if Orochi literally played around with 4t Naruto, then he will be able to fight fairly well with sasuke too.. Orochi is uber pwnage with ninjutsu. Sasuke, apart from his sharingan techniques, he has average ninja skills.

En Yang Ji
March 23, 2010, 07:41 PM
He has that too, but it's probably not enough to fight Kage level opponents. If he could supplement his taijutsu style, or make it more effective some how, it would probably be extremely dangerous.

Zatono
March 23, 2010, 07:44 PM
Sasuke, apart from his sharingan techniques, he has average ninja skills.

Well I wouldn't say average. Without his MS he's at above average Jounin level for sure.

southside
March 23, 2010, 07:49 PM
Nope. Orochi actually dies even before his full potential was shown to us.. Now that he is back (with a bang) no doubt kishi has a big surprise in store for us. And if Orochi literally played around with 4t Naruto, then he will be able to fight fairly well with sasuke too.. Orochi is uber pwnage with ninjutsu. Sasuke, apart from his sharingan techniques, he has average ninja skills.

I'm hoping to get a powered up ORO for the final villain. If sharrigun is gone I see no weakness that is easily exploitable against him. I demand satisfaction for a great character who got owned so embarrassingly that the writer deserves his fingers broken with a hammer.

karthikmurs
March 23, 2010, 07:59 PM
Well I wouldn't say average. Without his MS he's at above average Jounin level for sure.

Oh.. Am already tagging sasuke at kage level. So when I say average, its definitely nor average of Jounin but average of Kage (what, you thought I meant Chunin lever average? :blink.. )
[hr]

I'm hoping to get a powered up ORO for the final villain. If sharrigun is gone I see no weakness that is easily exploitable against him. I demand satisfaction for a great character who got owned so embarrassingly that the writer deserves his fingers broken with a hammer.

Orochi is NOT weak against sharingan. fact, he himself is a genjutu master. When he faced Itachi and Sasuke, he wanted to trade bodies with them. Had he gone all out, he definitely put up an awesome fight. Its difficult to access who might have won. But, it surely wouldn't have been easy for sasuke or Itachi!!

Zatono
March 23, 2010, 08:03 PM
No, he is weak against the Sharingan genjutsu, as we saw. Personally, I don't know why Sasuke just doesn't go around using this, since Orochimaru has a 5 in the genjutsu category and still couldn't do anything to break out of this.

http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/345/08/
http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/345/09/
http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/345/10/

KnuckleheadedNinja
March 23, 2010, 08:10 PM
Nope. Orochi actually dies even before his full potential was shown to us.. Now that he is back (with a bang) no doubt kishi has a big surprise in store for us. And if Orochi literally played around with 4t Naruto, then he will be able to fight fairly well with sasuke too.. Orochi is uber pwnage with ninjutsu. Sasuke, apart from his sharingan techniques, he has average ninja skills.

??? Did you miss something? Kabuto is back, not Orochimaru. Orochimaru is gone, 4ever.

karthikmurs
March 23, 2010, 08:16 PM
No, he is weak against the Sharingan genjutsu, as we saw. Personally, I don't know why Sasuke just doesn't go around using this, since Orochimaru has a 5 in the genjutsu category and still couldn't do anything to break out of this.

http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/345/08/
http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/345/09/
http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/345/10/

I told you why. Orochi didn't want to injure sasuke/Itachi or he wasn't seeking an all out battle. He wanted their bodies so restraining them and capturing them without harming them was a priority. Had orochi gone on an all out full fledged battle, I don't think he would have ended up like that.
[hr]

??? Did you miss something? Kabuto is back, not Orochimaru. Orochimaru is gone, 4ever.

Orochi is taking over Kabuto. ANd once the ttakeover is complete, we will see the return of the "almighty" orochi.

P.S: Kabuto tells about this orochi body take over thingie. I am too lazy to search for manga reference.

Katz
March 23, 2010, 08:25 PM
I told you why. Orochi didn't want to injure sasuke/Itachi or he wasn't seeking an all out battle. He wanted their bodies so restraining them and capturing them without harming them was a priority. Had orochi gone on an all out full fledged battle, I don't think he would have ended up like that.

SO your saying Oro could beat Itachi in a 1 on 1 all out battle?......I seem to remember a dying Itachi while emblazed in Susanoo stabbing him and sending him into a "other world" dimension, and from the Itachi/Oro confrontation (the one where he's in akat) he wasn't even close to touching Itachi before he was instantly in genjutsu and losing his arm....then he ran away from Itachi...what I'm trying to say is Itachi toyed with him with normal sharingan, he didn't even have to attempt Tsuk/Amat or even Susanoo to get Oro to retreat from him

elitefox
March 23, 2010, 08:35 PM
Quote: Evil_Eyes View Post
Ewww, the day that Naruto raps is the day that a little bit of me will die inside.

Besides, the main power of Naruto is the Sage form. Naruto will have to resolve the Kyubi issue on his own, if he's to be accepted as the chosen one. Anyone who depends on others for strength is weak.
well bee kinda proved that.... he rellys only on 8tails forms.... without it he is kinda weak and has no kicking.....

naruto wants to relly on his own strenght and not 9tails... so I doubt he will try to talk with 9tails to cooperate anytime soon.... 9tails is different from 8tails... he is kinda the only one with demonic personality... he would want only to kill, torn to shreads, destroy & try to manipulate naruto in order to free him or allow him to go outside to destroy ^^ (naruto is first host of 9tails in history after all... so maybe kumo had instructions how to resaonate with 8tails.... while naruto is here alone XD)

so I see more like naruto will train his durration of sage mode + additional jutsus.... than kyuubi training...

Well all I can say is

The kyuubi is Naruto's strength and he is not developing it...

That is the biggest problem. look at sasuke he develops his strength(sharingan)


His father thought of that and entrusted the kyuubi to him. and it is a waste if you cannot use it.

The frogs and Jiraiya think he was still too young to control it so this time he might be more mature or his body might/will be able to completely sync with the kyuubi.

Remember that the kyuubi was still sealed and kyuubi naruto fucked up Oro

I observe that kyuubi is many levels greater than any other tailed beast.
[hr]

SO your saying Oro could beat Itachi in a 1 on 1 all out battle?......I seem to remember a dying Itachi while emblazed in Susanoo stabbing him and sending him into a "other world" dimension, and from the Itachi/Oro confrontation (the one where he's in akat) he wasn't even close to touching Itachi before he was instantly in genjutsu and losing his arm....then he ran away from Itachi...what I'm trying to say is Itachi toyed with him with normal sharingan, he didn't even have to attempt Tsuk/Amat or even Susanoo to get Oro to retreat from him

this is why Itachi is feared by many or all...

karthikmurs
March 23, 2010, 08:44 PM
SO your saying Oro could beat Itachi in a 1 on 1 all out battle?......I seem to remember a dying Itachi while emblazed in Susanoo stabbing him and sending him into a "other world" dimension, and from the Itachi/Oro confrontation (the one where he's in akat) he wasn't even close to touching Itachi before he was instantly in genjutsu and losing his arm....then he ran away from Itachi...what I'm trying to say is Itachi toyed with him with normal sharingan, he didn't even have to attempt Tsuk/Amat or even Susanoo to get Oro to retreat from him

All I said was Orochi wouldn't have been defeated like that if he were on an all out battle. May be he owuld have won, may be not. We can't tell. We don't know his chakra affinity, or how many chakras he had affinity towards, how many more forbidden jutsus he knew... Nothing..

And how may times to I have to repeat myself? Phew!!

Orochi was NOT going on a battle with them. HE was trying to sneak in and take over their body.. Please understand the difference and the context in which I am saying.. I feel you misinterpreted my words, if not misunderstood..

g1534
March 23, 2010, 08:45 PM
??? Did you miss something? Kabuto is back, not Orochimaru. Orochimaru is gone, 4ever.

Yep. Orochimaru's spirit is sealed in the eternal genjutsu.

Even if his cells take over Kabuto's body, that will likely only make Kabuto the new orochimaru... He won't have the 3 year cycle of illness though, and will be kabuto in mind and soul.

Lord_Orochimaru
March 23, 2010, 09:47 PM
No, he is weak against the Sharingan genjutsu, as we saw. Personally, I don't know why Sasuke just doesn't go around using this, since Orochimaru has a 5 in the genjutsu category and still couldn't do anything to break out of this.

http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/345/08/
http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/345/09/
http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/345/10/

Actually had he been able to form the hand seals that genjutsu would of been broken. Why else would Itachi react to him forming them if it didn't matter? He's probably as u pointed out the highest genjustu user apart from a sharingan user. Heck his transmigration is genjutsu.
Plus you can see him pulling away from the paralysis genjutsu... Sasuke then went Cs2 to put him in a stronger Genjutsu.

Federicoxxx
March 23, 2010, 10:18 PM
i guess kabuto also have.now the power of Fushi Tensei
(Living Corpse Reincarnation)

i think he dont need it now.. except if he wants to take others person body
but not to avoid aging..for now

my question is..

does he. need from now on..to change his body. .no matter what every 3 years
now he have oro powers? ..does he got also the Fushi Thenshi weakness..
to do it,, or died like oro ?

my guess is. .oro could live forever.. on the huge white snake body
but.. in dat form is..unable to do nothing as shinobi.. of course
dats why ..he need new bodys...but due to the amazing power he have
the bodys..start rejecting him ....

Darth Executor
March 23, 2010, 10:23 PM
i guess kabuto also have.now the power of Fushi Tensei
(Living Corpse Reincarnation)

i think he dont need it now.. except if he wants to take others person body
but not to avoid aging..for now

my question is..

does he. need from now on..to change his body. .no matter what every 3 years
now he have oro powers? ..does he got also the Fushi Thenshi weakness..
to do it,, or died like oro ?

i guess yes "If he start to doiing it in first place"
or maybe no cause.. he dont have the.. original oro huge white snake body
so i dunno lol

Didn't kabuto have special regenerative powers? maybe with them he doesn't need to get a new body every few years.

jdw
March 23, 2010, 10:46 PM
Didn't kabuto have special regenerative powers? maybe with them he doesn't need to get a new body every few years.

He says something to that effect here (http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/168/07/).

g1534
March 23, 2010, 10:51 PM
He says something to that effect here (http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/168/07/).

Orochimaru only needed a new body every few years because he started the transmigration jutsu in the first place. His original body didn't require that, and Kabuto shouldn't need to do so either.

Nonlife
March 23, 2010, 10:54 PM
Since Kabuto was "fit and healthy" to begin with (although it looked like there was something else about him hinted in the Chunin exams) before he grafted some of Orochimaru's skin, I dare say there'd be no need for him to change bodies every 3 years. But, what do I know, Sasuke's going blind and he's going to transplant his brother's eyes which were going blind for him as well.

Ascension
March 23, 2010, 11:16 PM
Since Kabuto was "fit and healthy" to begin with (although it looked like there was something else about him hinted in the Chunin exams) before he grafted some of Orochimaru's skin, I dare say there'd be no need for him to change bodies every 3 years. But, what do I know, Sasuke's going blind and he's going to transplant his brother's eyes which were going blind for him as well.

About the eye transplant, I had the same question as you. Why would sasuske want to transplant eyes that are just as bad if not worse than the ones he already has? Is it one of those Narutoverse things when you transplant an eye it goes back to 20/20 vision? From what I've read, I'm under the assumption that as soon as Sasuske's eyes are transplnted with itachi's, his eyes will never go bad? Does this mean non stop spamming of susano? :blink

Another question about Kabuto vs Sasuske. Does Kabuto and Sasuske have the exact same Orochimaru abilities?

Rikudou King
March 23, 2010, 11:25 PM
About the eye transplant, I had the same question as you. Why would sasuske want to transplant eyes that are just as bad if not worse than the ones he already has? Is it one of those Narutoverse things when you transplant an eye it goes back to 20/20 vision? From what I've read, I'm under the assumption that as soon as Sasuske's eyes are transplnted with itachi's, his eyes will never go bad? Does this mean non stop spamming of susano? :blink We were told nothing about EMS stopping the cost of the MS techniques except blindness, So I believe Susanoo will still cause Sasuke pain when he uses it.

Delbi
March 23, 2010, 11:40 PM
Another question about Kabuto vs Sasuske. Does Kabuto and Sasuske have the exact same Orochimaru abilities?

Sasuke absorbed Orochimaru's soul, and was able to contain him as long as he had enough chakra to do so. He gained some abilties of the white snake, like summons from his body and healing abilities but that's it.

Kabuto, literally merged Orochimaru's white snake flesh into his own body, and like a parasite, its begun to take him over. He seems to have gained more extensive snake summons from his body, but beyond that we don't know what he can do.

raptor02_2001
March 24, 2010, 12:29 AM
what happen to Hokage position ? since Dazno killed by Sasuke... who be next of Hokage? since Naruto vs Sasuke aftermath....(not really battle between them(

Delbi
March 24, 2010, 12:33 AM
what happen to Hokage position ? since Dazno killed by Sasuke... who be next of Hokage? since Naruto vs Sasuke aftermath....(not really battle between them(

It was basically decided between Tenzou and Kakashi that Kakashi should be the acting Hokage, at least everyone that was around after the Summit is recongnizing him as such. Considering the Jounins called for him, and the Daiymo agreed to before Danzou messed with his head, Kakashi is going to be the 6th Hokage.

KiSwordsman
March 24, 2010, 01:13 AM
Honestly, i don't see why people complain about the logic behind eye transplants in the naruto universe, when we read a manga where people can conjure water dragons with sign language, and "swords" have teeth

naruto78
March 24, 2010, 02:19 AM
until madara explains how the transplantation works, if itachi's eyes are alterated, we don't know how sasuke's eyes will regain light. Madara can't have plug his brother's eyes by himself. he don't have any medical skill. he must have taken them and after that asked someone to transplant them.

After all we didn't see anything about EMS yet.. Madara is just a piece of who he was before and don't seem to have that power anymore.. it could be a trap and EMS doesn't exist !!! Perhaps he wants to make sasuke accept the surgery and give him the rinnegan !!!

Or madara has his soul in Obito's body and wants sasuke to have EMS he used to have and tranfers his soul into his body. Madara won't have a chance to have EMS again without this. His brother and himself have died long time ago (their body I mean). The only thing he could do is waiting for two uchihas brothers to awake EMS and steal it from them !

elitefox
March 24, 2010, 02:28 AM
until madara explains how the transplantation works, if itachi's eyes are alterated, we don't know how sasuke's eyes will regain light. Madara can't have plug his brother's eyes by himself. he don't have any medical skill. he must have taken them and after that asked someone to transplant them.

After all we didn't see anything about EMS yet.. Madara is just a piece of who he was before and don't seem to have that power anymore.. it could be a trap and EMS doesn't exist !!! Perhaps he wants to make sasuke accept the surgery and give him the rinnegan !!!

Or madara has his soul in Obito's body and wants sasuke to have EMS he used to have and tranfers his soul into his body. Madara won't have a chance to have EMS again without this. His brother and himself have died long time ago (their body I mean). The only thing he could do is waiting for two uchihas brothers to awake EMS and steal it from them !

Madara has all around guy in akatsuki

guess who?

Zetsu :D
Touch Granny Tsunade then he can turn into her with alll her techs including medical jutsus :p

Montai
March 24, 2010, 02:38 AM
Since Zetsu isn't a fighter type, who do you think he'll end up fighting? If Madara does plan on taking Nagato's eyes, and Konan gets in the way, it'd be nice if he were to sick zetzu on her. Plus, you die if you betray akatsuki, right?

beasticon999
March 24, 2010, 02:59 AM
if Kabuto comes after Sasuke he is dead meat,i he dares Naruto he's finished.He may probably battle Kakashi that may be kishi's plan for kakashi.in this battle he will show why kakashi is kage level.

llamapie
March 24, 2010, 03:07 AM
So if Sasuke gets Itachis eyes I imagine his susanoo will gain itachi's weapons as well, and he will probably gain Itachi's tsukiyomi as well.

3c
March 24, 2010, 03:23 AM
No spoiler talk in this thread, you know this. The spoiler have been posted and the spoiler discussion thread (http://mangahelpers.com/forum/showthread.php?t=59012) has been opened, take it over there.

Delbi
March 24, 2010, 04:01 AM
So if Sasuke gets Itachis eyes I imagine his susanoo will gain itachi's weapons as well, and he will probably gain Itachi's tsukiyomi as well.

Doubtful. The Sword of Tosouku and Yata's Mirror seemed to die with Itachi and disappear.

Also, Sasuke can't use the level of Tsyukiyomi that Itachi could not because he lacks Itachi's eyes, but because he lacks Itachi's genjutsu skill. Sasuke is a ninjutsu expert, he'll never be as good with genjutsu as his brother.

jdw
March 24, 2010, 07:22 AM
he has the ability to warp through time and space, how is naruto going to fight madara... does he recieved another power up

Here goes a theory I posted a while back. I made edits to your post to avoid spoilers:


A thought crossed my mind the other day, and I am not sure I posted it anywhere. People often ask how will Naruto be able to hit Madara if he can phase body parts and/or move his entire body into another dimension using S/T? Perhaps the answer lies in Kakashi. What if Kakashi were to use his S/T jutsu on Naruto, sending Naruto into the the S/T dimension? Naruto could post clones in various places in the S/T dimension to await Madara's return. People have by stating all along that it is possible that Madara's jutsu and Kakashi's are the same due to the appearance and how they function, and the possiblity of their eyes coming from Obito, so perhaps it is possible their jutsus feed things into the same dimension

A few weeks ago I joked about Madara's finding the nail God Pain sent at Kakashi in his S/T space, and well as Asura's Missile, etc, but what if Kakashi sent a person to take Madara out? Madara could pop out, but he may be facing a real world battle where he could die and he know if he uses S/T again he could die Link (http://mangahelpers.com/forum/showthread.php?p=1641744#post1641744)

Jspot
March 24, 2010, 07:25 AM
Starting to think that Madara is nothing more than a chakra entity, and that he is "infecting" Sasuke with his sinister chakra. Maybe he doesn't plan on making himself the ultimate jinchuuriki, maybe he plans on making Sasuke the ultimate jinchuuriki, and controlling him, literally.

Gcat88
March 24, 2010, 09:41 AM
I think that Madara wants to be the ultimate being!! He wants to have all the Sharignan and then have the Risengnan as well and have the ability to use basically any jutsu. The 10 tail beasts and engulfing the world in an illusion, that cant be his TRUE plan. At least i hope not!!

benelori
March 24, 2010, 10:00 AM
I think that Madara wants to be the ultimate being!! He wants to have all the Sharignan and then have the Risengnan as well and have the ability to use basically any jutsu. The 10 tail beasts and engulfing the world in an illusion, that cant be his TRUE plan. At least i hope not!!
Yeah...that's what I thought,too...peace from a villain...not very convincing...so this is the only thing I guess, that I hate in the manga...the freakin' Jyuubi

jdw
March 24, 2010, 01:17 PM
I don't think so at all, I think Neji would give Sasuke an amazing fight. Don't underestimate him.

He's one of the primary young up and coming monsters inside Konoha, just like Naruto and Sasuke was. If Neji was as impressive as he was back during the Chuunin exam, there's absolutely no way he became worse. He likely became far, far better, just like Naruto and Sasuke did.

I'll begin with the fact that I like Neji. He is a strong, talented shinobi. However, Sasuke would kill him instantly under what we currently know. This isn't Neji's fault though, Kishi has not showcased his talents in Part II. Neji's only true addition since Part I is Hakke Kuushou (http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/256/07/). And that isn't enough.

3c
March 24, 2010, 01:28 PM
Neji is a great shinobi up in coming, and is most likely going to end up being stronger than all other "normal" shinobi, he's gonna be a new "Kakashi" sort of. But Naruto and Sasuke are simply put legendary monsters. They're a whole tier above Neji. Simply put I can't even imagine how on earth Neji would stand a slight chance against Sasuke with their current power levels. What in the world would Neji do against Susano'o? And what about Amaterasu? Amaterasu hits the target 0,00001 seconds after it's casted, how would Neji even find time to start up a Kaiten? Neji would be so dead in my opinion. I've seen nothing from him to even make me doubt my conclusion the slightest. Neji was a monster in part 1, and in part 2 is no doubt a tier above any other rookie, but Naruto and Sasuke are simply far above him now. Neji is basically suffering the same fate as Piccolo did when comparing to Vegeta and Goku as DBZ progressed.

Gcat88
March 24, 2010, 01:29 PM
WHAT??? I LOVE the Tailed beasts!! i just wish their hosts would be able to hold them a little longer so we can see their power in battle. I really want to see a 9 tail vs all the other beasts battle. Or naruto fighting them with the 9 tail inside of him.

Weapon_X
March 24, 2010, 02:09 PM
WHAT??? I LOVE the Tailed beasts!! i just wish their hosts would be able to hold them a little longer so we can see their power in battle. I really want to see a 9 tail vs all the other beasts battle. Or naruto fighting them with the 9 tail inside of him.

More then anything regarding the tailed beasts, I want to see their reaction when they find out they are all 1 being seperated into 9 parts and their daddy is the Jyuubi :lmao

8 Tailed Ox: Yo! Kyuubi! You stupid fox, I just found out we iz da same thing yo! We must find our siblings and re-unite you asshole.
9 Tailed Fox: ARGHH!! I HATE THIS WORLD!!! I WANT TO KILL!!! NARUTO YOU ARE SO GAY!!!

Montai
March 24, 2010, 02:27 PM
Even if Naruto had listened to him, how exactly was Kakashi gonna kill Sasuke with Madara on speed dial, thanks to zetsu
<hr noshade size="1">


Dude, we all know Madara would have been there one why or another to pull Sasuke out of the fire, regardless of what naruto did.

Madara didn't come running to his baby until zetsu had told him what was going on. Instead of doing that chidori vs rasengan showdown, Naruto could have easily sent a clone behind him for the kill. Sasuke was vulnerable because his vision was screwed, and with that, just as fast as he snatched Sakura out of his hands, he would have used that speed to kill him. He didn't even have his Saringan activated. That's my "opinion"!

DeBaron8
March 24, 2010, 02:36 PM
More then anything regarding the tailed beasts, I want to see their reaction when they find out they are all 1 being seperated into 9 parts and their daddy is the Jyuubi :lmao

8 Tailed Ox: Yo! Kyuubi! You stupid fox, I just found out we iz da same thing yo! We must find our siblings and re-unite you asshole.
9 Tailed Fox: ARGHH!! I HATE THIS WORLD!!! I WANT TO KILL!!! NARUTO YOU ARE SO GAY!!!

Your post just gave me the idea that perhaps the personality and intelligence of the jyuubi is that of the kyuubi. It could explain why the kyuubi never had a host before and is the most evil and hardest to control of the bijuu. Since the sharingan came from the jyuubi when the Rikudou Sennin became its host, mabye this explains why Karin hints at a potential similarity in the kyuubi's and Sasuke's sinister chakra. Part of the jyuubi is inherited by the descendants of the Rikudou Sennin (ie: Uchihas) and the part of jyuubi still exists as the kyuubi inside of Naruto.

NAM61
March 24, 2010, 02:37 PM
@ SenninSage
i do not think neji is even at the same level as naruto and sasuke are he is powerful but no where near sasuke and naruto. look at who they fought naruto pain and sasuke the kages and others. neji had trouble with a 30% kisame clone. also naruto and sasuke are the main characters they will always have a higher growth rate then others. they are strong and are still getting stronger. they have also had better teachers then neji to learn. going from the databook nejis uncle was not that strong unlike the people naruto and sasuke learned jiriaya, oro, and the frogs.

zerocooldx
March 24, 2010, 02:40 PM
More then anything regarding the tailed beasts, I want to see their reaction when they find out they are all 1 being seperated into 9 parts and their daddy is the Jyuubi :lmao

8 Tailed Ox: Yo! Kyuubi! You stupid fox, I just found out we iz da same thing yo! We must find our siblings and re-unite you asshole.
9 Tailed Fox: ARGHH!! I HATE THIS WORLD!!! I WANT TO KILL!!! NARUTO YOU ARE SO GAY!!!

The Kyuubi called the Uchihas a cursed clan, so i think he knows more about the past then any of the other Bijuu around. I'm actually fairly certain he knows about the Juubi and etc.

KiSwordsman
March 24, 2010, 02:47 PM
Madara didn't come running to his baby until zetsu had told him what was going on. Instead of doing that chidori vs rasengan showdown, Naruto could have easily sent a clone behind him for the kill. Sasuke was vulnerable because his vision was screwed, and with that, just as fast as he snatched Sakura out of his hands, he would have used that speed to kill him. He didn't even have his Saringan activated. That's my "opinion"!

It kinda seems like you think the Rasengan-Chidori clash had to happen for Zetsu to show up, correct me if I'm wrong. Zetsu was there to make sure sasuke was okay. No matter what, if Sasuke got into any type of danger that he could not pull himself out of, Zetsu was gonna tell Madara.

If Naruto had done what you said and used clones to go in behind Sasuke for the kill, zetsu would have poped up like he did in the kage summit and protected Sasuke from the blow, then proceeded to tell Madara.

GOOMOONRYONG
March 25, 2010, 12:35 AM
Sasuke does not have the kyuubi inside of him end of story.

Delbi
March 25, 2010, 12:49 AM
The Kyuubi called the Uchihas a cursed clan, so i think he knows more about the past then any of the other Bijuu around. I'm actually fairly certain he knows about the Juubi and etc.

It's very possible he has some of the Juubi's memories inside of him. He is by far the most intelligent and cunning of the Biju, so I'm sure knows a lot of things, perhaps even more than Madara knows.

Honestly, that's a conversation I'd love to read, an exchange between the Kyuubi and Madara.

KiSwordsman
March 25, 2010, 01:01 AM
In regard to the whole "Sasuke has the other half of the fox inside him", does any body remember this:

http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/309/03/

And Jdw Pointed this out earlier:

http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/370/12/

The fact that Karin might have sensed similarities between Sasuke and the foxs chakra is not surprising given the implications of Sasuke's ancestry. It doesn't mean that Sasuke has the other half of the foxs chakra insided him.

Delbi
March 25, 2010, 01:10 AM
In regard to the whole "Sasuke has the other half of the fox inside him", does any body remember this:

http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/309/03/

And Jdw Pointed this out earlier:

http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/370/12/

The fact that Karin might have sensed similarities between Sasuke and the foxs chakra is not surprising given the implications of Sasuke's ancestry. It doesn't mean that Sasuke has the other half of the foxs chakra insided him.

It's very true, the first son of the Sage of Sixth paths, who was basically the first Uchiha, was the son of a Jinchuriki who had the the Juubi, which is more powerful than the Kyuubi sealed inside of him. So, when the Kyuubi talked about Sasuke and Madara's chakra being more sinister thanh is own, it's quite possible it's because they still have remenants of the Juubi's chakra inside of them.

I for one am still holding strong to the theory that the Yang portion of the Kyuubi is manifesting itself inside of Sasuke. To me anyway, all signs point to that.

KiSwordsman
March 25, 2010, 01:19 AM
It's very true, the first son of the Sage of Sixth paths, who was basically the first Uchiha, was the son of a Jinchuriki who had the the Juubi, which is more powerful than the Kyuubi sealed inside of him. So, when the Kyuubi talked about Sasuke and Madara's chakra being more sinister thanh is own, it's quite possible it's because they still have remenants of the Juubi's chakra inside of them.

I for one am still holding strong to the theory that the Yang portion of the Kyuubi is manifesting itself inside of Sasuke. To me anyway, all signs point to that

I'm interested, please enlighten me on your point of view.

Delbi
March 25, 2010, 01:21 AM
I'm interested, please enlighten me on your point of view.

I made a thread about it here http://mangahelpers.com/forum/showthread.php?p=1856818#post1856818

I suggest you read my first post, and then a few of the following posts to get a full grasp of what I'm talking about.

In a nutshell, I think, since the Kyuubi is supposed to manifest where hatred dwells, I think it's Yang portion is manfiesting inside of Sasuke because he's full of hatred. Madara's plan is to get the other half to form in Sasuke so he can extract both pieces and form the Juubi.

Afterall, the Juubi can't be formed unless all of the Kyuubi is sealed in the statue, and Naruto only has half of it, specifically the Yin portion, inside of him.

Xiraiya
March 25, 2010, 01:35 AM
Considering we already know Minato sealed "that" half of it, along with himself in the Death god, I fail to see how Kyuubi could be in Sasuke too...

Delbi
March 25, 2010, 01:39 AM
Considering we already know Minato sealed "that" half of it, along with himself in the Death god, I fail to see how Kyuubi could be in Sasuke too...

Who's to say the Kyuubi couldn't have "leaked" out of the Death God, or couldn't have escaped somehow?

Also, the Yang portion of the Kyuubi might not be something that can be "sealed". If it does in fact manfiest where human hatred dwells, why couldn't it manifest itself then inside of Sasuke?

Xiraiya
March 25, 2010, 01:44 AM
Who's to say the Kyuubi couldn't have "leaked" out of the Death God, or couldn't have escaped somehow?

Also, the Yang portion of the Kyuubi might not be something that can be "sealed". If it does in fact manfiest where human hatred dwells, why couldn't it manifest itself then inside of Sasuke?

Yeah but the Manifest thing was before we found out Madara summoned it during his nightly tantrums.

I just think it seems a bit too random to just happen now, if it was hinted from the beginning kyuubi was split between TWO babies then sure.

GOOMOONRYONG
March 25, 2010, 01:47 AM
Madara isn't going to get the Juubi anyway

Xiraiya
March 25, 2010, 01:49 AM
Madara isn't going to get the Juubi anyway

It can't be his real goal, because he has to Succeed before he fails, or else what would be the point?

Delbi
March 25, 2010, 01:52 AM
Yeah but the Manifest thing was before we found out Madara summoned it during his nightly tantrums.

I just think it seems a bit too random to just happen now, if it was hinted from the beginning kyuubi was split between TWO babies then sure.

Just think for a second.

Can the Juubi be created without the FULL Kyuubi? No, it can't.

Is it possible for the Kyuubi to both manifest and be summoned? I don't see why not, especially since it's nothing but a lot of chakra with a mind. Madara "summoning" the Kyuubi, could have just been him extracting it from himself where it formed because of all the hatred he carried with him throughout the years after his defeat from Hirashima and exile from the Leaf.

Why is Madara so dead on Sasuke's hatred? Could it be because he's trying to get the other half of the Kyuubi to manifest itself so he can seal it?

Seriously, read my thread about this topic, there's a ton of evidence pointing towards the Yang portion forming itself inside of Sasuke.

To be quite honest, that is the only way I can fathom that the Yang portion is going to come into play. Without the Yang part of the Kyuubi, Madara's plans are all for naught.
[hr]

Madara isn't going to get the Juubi anyway

Are you Kishi? :blink

GOOMOONRYONG
March 25, 2010, 01:53 AM
He doesn't necessarily have to succeed he could be stopped again just like the last two times he tried to complete his goals.
[hr]

Just think for a second.

Can the Juubi be created without the FULL Kyuubi? No, it can't.

Is it possible for the Kyuubi to both manifest and be summoned? I don't see why not, especially since it's nothing but a lot of chakra with a mind. Madara "summoning" the Kyuubi, could have just been him extracting it from himself where it formed because of all the hatred he carried with him throughout the years after his defeat from Hirashima and exile from the Leaf.

Why is Madara so dead on Sasuke's hatred? Could it be because he's trying to get the other half of the Kyuubi to manifest itself so he can seal it?

Seriously, read my thread about this topic, there's a ton of evidence pointing towards the Yang portion forming itself inside of Sasuke.

To be quite honest, that is the only way I can fathom that the Yang portion is going to come into play. Without the Yang part of the Kyuubi, Madara's plans are all for naught.
<hr noshade size="1">


Are you Kishi? :blink

No but are you honestly suggesting that both naruto and sasuke are going to die?

Delbi
March 25, 2010, 01:57 AM
He doesn't necessarily have to succeed he could be stopped again just like the last two times he tried to complete his goals.

No but are you honestly suggesting that both naruto and sasuke are going to die?

Madara has had over 70 years to correct his mistakes. He isn't full of rage anymore, and he's likely over a hundred years old. The chances of him failing to create the Juubi are highly unlikely IMO, and what would be the point of introducing the damn thing if we aren't going to see it?

As for Naruto and Sasuke dying, they could die, but if they each only have a portion of the Kyuubi inside of them, it's possible they could live through the process but just be very weak afterwards and need time to rest.

It's also very possible they could be revived somehow. It did happen with Gaara afterall.

M3J
March 25, 2010, 02:05 AM
Gaara was revived with a kinjutsu (did I get the name right?); is there a possibility that there's another shinobi that could do what Nagato and/or Chiyo did?

Delbi
March 25, 2010, 02:07 AM
Gaara was revived with a kinjutsu (did I get the name right?); is there a possibility that there's another shinobi that could do what Nagato and/or Chiyo did?

I wouldn't doubt that Tsuande could do something very similar. Never know, that might be what Itachi's power was that he gave to Naruto, a way for him and Sasuke to be revived incase they both die. Now wouldn't that be a hell of a twist.

M3J
March 25, 2010, 02:13 AM
How can that be possible, especially when he's dead and probably wouldn't have the chakra needed to do so? O__O
Tsunade might, but I don't think she can do two. Her life would probably be taken with the first one.

Delbi
March 25, 2010, 02:20 AM
How can that be possible, especially when he's dead and probably wouldn't have the chakra needed to do so? O__O
Tsunade might, but I don't think she can do two. Her life would probably be taken with the first one.

Itachi gave something to Naruto, something he hoped he'd never have to use.

He faced Sasuke already, so obviously it doesn't have to do with just seeing Sasuke. It doesn't have to do with just seeing Madara, so to me that leaves a few options.

1) It can react to Sasuke or Madara's MS, or perhaps Itachi's MS turned EMS in Sasuke.

2) It could make Naruto resistant to the sealing statue, or

3) It can bring Naruto back from the dead in case he dies.

Itachi was a genius, I wouldn't put it past him to know a kinjutsu superior to that of Chiyo's. Same with Tsuande.

I also wouldn't put it past him that he may have come across an item like Yata's Mirror that could possibly bring people back from the dead, and that's what he gave to Naruto.

And again, we have to entertain the idea that since Naruto doesn't have the full Kyuubi, and if Sasuke has only a portion, the sealing ritual might not kill them. It was only when all of Shukaku left Gaara that he finally died.

M3J
March 25, 2010, 02:29 AM
I don't think it activates on sight, but upon seeing something like Sharingan. Same with Sasuke; Itachi's implanted Amaterasu activated on sight of a Sharingan.

He might have come across such item, but it makes me wonder how it can be used. The items he had were used by Susano'o. I guess it depends on whether they're ethereal or solid.

But if all of Kyuubi leaves Naruto and Sasuke, they'll die, even if it's not full. The chakra is still being removed as well as the bijuu itself.
I don't support the Sasuke having Kyuubi theory. There's no evidence he does. What Karin saw, IMO, wasn't exactly a bijuu, but she might have been comparing it to an evil monster.

ornis
March 25, 2010, 02:29 AM
I think Delbi is on to something. Take this with a grain of salt:

http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/370/15/

The frog and Jiraiya might both be right. Kyuubi can be sealed in Naruto and manifest through hatred. How? If Kyuubi's chakra is sealed two ways, part in Naruto, part in Shinigami, what does Sasuke have to do with this? Say Yin and Yang chakra are magnets. Just imagine it. Okay, as Naruto holds Kyuubi's Yang and Sasuke holds maliciously potent Yang chakra, some facet of magnetism happens.

1. Sasuke has his Yang suppressed,

2. Kyuubi's and Sasuke's Yang neutralize or repel each other,

3. But if Sasuke's chakra is more potent than Kyuubi's, Sasuke meets Kyuubi.

Sasuke might summon Kyuubi by virtue of Sasuke's chakra nature being so strong that it arouses and marries its opposite, yet most equal nature: Kyuubi's potent Yin. Sasuke perhaps surrogates a "substitute of Kyuubi's Yang". This makes the frog key's statement true: Sasuke only gained his recent power through hatred, which is more physically shown then spiritually (Susano'o: materialization; Amaterasu: materialization; Enton molding: materialization; Sasuke's overall violence: ditto). Sasuke is demonstrating potent Yang chakra after forging ample malice. Vast malice. This means that Sasuke's making hatred, equal to vesting malice, might allow him to summon a fully fledged Kyuubi by pairing Kyuubi's Yin with Sasuke's Yang. But Sasuke’s Yang needs not to be Kyuubi’s; they are at least parallels. Their association overcomes Minato's Shiki Fuuijin and Shishou Fuuin combo seal that bars Madara's access to Kyuubi.

Delbi
March 25, 2010, 02:35 AM
I don't think it activates on sight, but upon seeing something like Sharingan. Same with Sasuke; Itachi's implanted Amaterasu activated on sight of a Sharingan.

He might have come across such item, but it makes me wonder how it can be used. The items he had were used by Susano'o. I guess it depends on whether they're ethereal or solid.

But if all of Kyuubi leaves Naruto and Sasuke, they'll die, even if it's not full. The chakra is still being removed as well as the bijuu itself.
I don't support the Sasuke having Kyuubi theory. There's no evidence he does. What Karin saw, IMO, wasn't exactly a bijuu, but she might have been comparing it to an evil monster.

I think Sasuke has to be manifesting the Kyuubi because that's really the only logical explanation as to how the other half is going to come into play unless it really is still inside the Death God and Madara wants to go fish it out, which I think is highly unlikely.

As for there being no evidence, I think there is quite a bit that is telling us it's inside manifesting inside of him. Granted, we have to assume a few things, but I think my theory holds a lot of merit to it.

In any event, we'll have to wait and see what happens. I don't think Madara is just having Sasuke gain more and more hatred for shits and giggles.

ornis
March 25, 2010, 02:41 AM
Oh and think about the word in. What does "in" mean? How is Kyuubi "in" Naruto and "in" the Shinigami? I bet whatever Kyuubi's "in", neither Naruto nor Sasuke will die by anyone extracting the kitsune from its current locale.

Delbi
March 25, 2010, 02:45 AM
That's another thing to consider, perhaps by the nature of the seals Minato put on Naruto, the extraction won't kill him.

Because correct me if I'm wrong, but Naruto is the only Jinchuriki that has an actual seal on him.

ornis
March 25, 2010, 02:52 AM
Exactly. Naruto has a Shiki Fuujin seal on him. But his father "died". Why is the seal still there? It allows some of the Kyuubi's chakra to leak.... okay that's a given. From where does the chakra leak? Naruto. Hmmm. Shinigami. Hmmm. Kyuubi. Bingo. Wait. Kyuubi is where Kyuubi is, but if he's leaking from somewhere, doesn't that mean he isn't completely sealed off to any one location? That's assuming that Orochimaru cannot undo Hakke no Fuuin. So, what's up? Kyuubi needs to be located. That's what's up. We don't know where the fox is, especially if he can be manifested through Naruto. Cause that means he definitely isn't restricted to the Death God.

ashher
March 25, 2010, 03:16 AM
i think the gift itachi left was something that gets activated once sasuke gains ems using itachi's eyes,that is something he can logically do....his thoughts might be like 'if sasuke gets manipulated by madara despite the fail-safe...he is certainly gonna resort to taking my eyes at some time...then lets leave an antidote to that with naruto,the guy who is most likely to care both about sasuke and konoha'....but of course he hopes that sasuke won't fall prey to madara and so he says 'i hope u'll never have to use this' to naruto.

Ryr
March 25, 2010, 08:44 AM
You know, all these talks about the tailed-beasts got me thinking: Is Madara going to simply release all the beasts on the villages to create chaos, or is he going to transfer all the tailed-beasts to someone, possible himself?

ornis
March 25, 2010, 09:02 AM
Possible Sasuke?

KiSwordsman
March 25, 2010, 10:08 AM
Who's to say the Kyuubi couldn't have "leaked" out of the Death God, or couldn't have escaped somehow?

Also, the Yang portion of the Kyuubi might not be something that can be "sealed". If it does in fact manfiest where human hatred dwells, why couldn't it manifest itself then inside of Sasuke?

http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/370/13/

jdw
March 25, 2010, 10:33 AM
That's another thing to consider, perhaps by the nature of the seals Minato put on Naruto, the extraction won't kill him.

Because correct me if I'm wrong, but Naruto is the only Jinchuriki that has an actual seal on him.

I think they probably all have an actual seal on them in some sense:

http://img641.imageshack.us/img641/8371/1516n.jpg

GOOMOONRYONG
March 25, 2010, 11:07 AM
http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/370/13/

It's funny you posted that because Jiraya says Minato sealed the yin chakra in Naruto and then 2 pages later he says he sealed the yang chakra. Looks like that is a typo.

ornis
March 25, 2010, 11:10 AM
I think they probably all have an actual seal on them in some sense:

http://img641.imageshack.us/img641/8371/1516n.jpg


That's a good point jdw. When I talked with Delbi about the Shiki Fuujin, I guess I assumed that he was mentioning the Shiki Fuujin in tandem with Hakke no Fuuin and Shishou Fuuin. Which was made for Naruto. So, seemingly, Naruto is the seal's sole possessor. Delbi might have been discussing host seals broadly. He could have been referring to the host seal system that you mention.

Yeah, perhaps all jinchuriki have seals on them, but Naruto's seal has been exclusively shown to this day and discussed more than the other seals.
[hr]

It's funny you posted that because Jiraya says Minato sealed the yin chakra in Naruto and then 2 pages later he says he sealed the yang chakra. Looks like that is a typo.

http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/370/12/

Jiraiya says that the Yin chakra was sealed using Shiki Fuujin. Jiraiya hardly specifies where. But the Yang chakra is "in" Naruto:

http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/370/13/

GOOMOONRYONG
March 25, 2010, 11:16 AM
delbi do you also think that this is the nine tails? http://read.mangashare.com/Naruto/chapter-462/page006.html

Googlez_kun
March 25, 2010, 11:22 AM
Just found something epic on NF



Karin Vs. Main Characters:

Who will win?

Originally Posted by arcanelifeform View Post
- Sasuke's clan is killed in front of him. He goes crazy, makes melodramatic speeches about his pain and how no-one understands him, and thinks it's justified to kill innocent people and gets off on said killings.
Karin's village is destroyed in front of her. But she suffers none of that trauma bullshit, works her way to the top with orochimaru, pursues a relationship, and just generally gets on with her life.

-Naruto is betrayed and abandoned by a guys he loves like family. He becomes codependent and obsessive.
Karin is betrayed by the guy she loves. She walks away with dignity intact and moves on with her life.

-Sakura is treated like shit by her crush. She falls in love with him for that, and can't let go 3 years on after multiple rejections.
Karin is treated like shit by her crush for few days (hachibi fight onwards). She puts up with it for a short while then decides she's had enough and leaves.

3-0!
It's official:
Karin pwns!http://s236.photobucket.com/albums/ff286/nfforums/NF%20smilies/gar2fy5.gif

Weapon_X
March 25, 2010, 01:13 PM
Wait a minute, could Madara want the Rin'negan because he wants to read further into the Uchiha tablet? He did say the Sharingan can read the tablet, then the MS can decypher more of the tablet and the Rin'negan can decypher even more then the MS. Judging by this, I'm gonna say Sharingan can read 33.3% of the tablet, MS can read 66.6% of the tablet. Maybe Madara needs the Rin'negan to read the rest of it. Wow, there might be something which Madara doesn't even know, and with the Rin'negan he would know all the secrets.

This would be better then him using it for power -_-;

Gcat88
March 25, 2010, 01:14 PM
I think in the current World No one can beat Madara!!!

hakuthehedgehog
March 25, 2010, 01:43 PM
delbi do you also think that this is the nine tails? http://read.mangashare.com/Naruto/chapter-462/page006.html

That has to be Susano'o.
http://mangastream.com/read/naruto/480-41/2
Also, the thing that was shown behind Sasuke was probably Susano'o as well.
It seems that Susano'o is an evil spirit or it changes according to the user, since Itachi's was pure white.
Since Hatesuke is full of hatroid, his version of Susano'o also makes him even more angry.

Gats
March 25, 2010, 01:44 PM
I just watched the last anime episode and I just remember what Madara said about the Rinnegan : he was going to take it until Zetsu told stuff about Sasuke.

We were wondering how Madara would get the Rinnegan since Konan probably destroyed the eyes. The anime made me remember that the eye shape of Animal Pain was still the same when he was dead (being autopsied) => Rinnegan, which probably means that the shape was not only here because Nagato was controling the body.

It probably means that Nagato probably just replicated his own eyes (or convert the dead body eyes) and put them in the 6 Pains body, so those eyes aren't Rinnegan by shape but also real ones. Since he can create any jutsu, he was probably able to do this to some extent at least.

So what happened to the eyes in Konoha ? Maybe this what Madara was talking about who knows ? Did Danzou also collected those ?

hakuthehedgehog
March 25, 2010, 01:57 PM
I just watched the last anime episode and I just remember what Madara said about the Rinnegan : he was going to take it until Zetsu told stuff about Sasuke.

We were wondering how Madara would get the Rinnegan since Konan probably destroyed the eyes. The anime made me remember that the eye shape of Animal Pain was still the same when he was dead (being autopsied) => Rinnegan, which probably means that the shape was not only here because Nagato was controling the body.

It probably means that Nagato probably just replicated his own eyes (or convert the dead body eyes) and put them in the 6 Pains body, so those eyes aren't Rinnegan by shape but also real ones. Since he can create any jutsu, he was probably able to do this to some extent at least.

So what happened to the eyes in Konoha ? Maybe this what Madara was talking about who knows ? Did Danzou also collected those ?

Maybe they were destroyed in Pain's invasion: http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/427/12/
If they were, then Konoha is the most stupid country ever >.<
However, eyes degrade very quickly, and if they were usable, I don't see why Konoha put them in a safe place.

Gats
March 25, 2010, 02:29 PM
Maybe they were destroyed in Pain's invasion: http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/427/12/
If they were, then Konoha is the most stupid country ever >.<
However, eyes degrade very quickly, and if they were usable, I don't see why Konoha put them in a safe place.

You just forgot that there are also the eyes of the other Pains.

What do you mean about Konoha ? I said Danzou, I mean, I'm sure this guy would think to take this for himself or his "Root" before any of Konoha's ninja would think about it.

Delbi
March 25, 2010, 02:35 PM
delbi do you also think that this is the nine tails? http://read.mangashare.com/Naruto/chapter-462/page006.html

That's obvioulsy an illusion of Sussano, it looks completely different than the black mass behind Sasuke that Karin observed, and looks exactly like the Human form of Sussano Sasuke fought Danzou with.

KiSwordsman
March 25, 2010, 05:50 PM
It's funny you posted that because Jiraya says Minato sealed the yin chakra in Naruto and then 2 pages later he says he sealed the yang chakra. Looks like that is a typo.

I interpreted it as him sealing the yin chakra in the death god, and the yang in Naruto

Darth Executor
March 25, 2010, 05:53 PM
Possible sage mode inconsistency:

1. Naruto can only do 2 frs with sage mode.
2. KB splits up chakra equally.

Knowing 1 and 2, how come after flinging 2 frss at pain naruto and his clones are still in sage mode? And in fact he's still in sage mode until fat pain sucks the chakra out of him? Pre sage clone summoning he only managed one frs before he ran out of juice. It's almost like sage mode runs out when kishi feels like having it run out rather than based on a consistent measuring unit.

hakuthehedgehog
March 25, 2010, 05:56 PM
I mean that making clones isn't enough for the clones to have sage mode, they need to be infused with sage chakra first.

However, it seems that I'm wrong, because Naruto made sage clones when fighting pain without a problem. I'm changing this conversation to the hangout because I think I found a rather severe inconsistency and would like people's opinion on it.

I don't think there is any inconsistency at all.
The frogs said that Naruto could only do 2 clones to gather sage chakra and Naruto said he could only use 2 clones besides other 2 already gathering sage chakra and 3 if it was only one gathering because of the chakra splitting.
Now, if there is no clone gathering sage chakra, Naruto sould be able to split his chakra a lot, thus making lots of Sage clones.

jdw
March 25, 2010, 06:01 PM
when it comes to Pre-sage mode clone summoning and chakra, Naruto had also created two clones back at Myoubokuzan to gather Natural Energy, so that might contribute to why he could only throw one FRS at that time before exiting sage mode.

As for why he is still in sage mode after tossing two FRS, it is possible that 2 FRS uses most, but not all of his sage chakra (but enough that he cannot toss a 3rd FRS), so he could still have a little left. During the final encounter after emerging from Chibaku Tensei, Naruto immediately lost sage mode after tossing his second FRS, but he had also already created hundreds of henge'd clones.

hakuthehedgehog
March 25, 2010, 06:02 PM
Possible sage mode inconsistency:

1. Naruto can only do 2 frs with sage mode.
2. KB splits up chakra equally.

Knowing 1 and 2, how come after flinging 2 frss at pain naruto and his clones are still in sage mode? And in fact he's still in sage mode until fat pain sucks the chakra out of him? Pre sage clone summoning he only managed one frs before he ran out of juice. It's almost like sage mode runs out when kishi feels like having it run out rather than based on a consistent measuring unit.

According to Pa, he said the Naruto, himself and Shima could summon something pretty big, so Naruto probably summoned a boss summon using his Sage chakra, which explains why he was only able to do one FRS, plus he was in the battlefield for a while, so he probably wasted some sage chakra.
Not sure how he still was in SM when fat pain sucked his chakra, but maybe he got some when he was in the smoke.

Gats
March 25, 2010, 06:12 PM
when it comes to Pre-sage mode clone summoning and chakra, Naruto had also created two clones back at Myoubokuzan to gather Natural Energy, so that might contribute to why he could only throw one FRS at that time before exiting sage mode.

As for why he is still in sage mode after tossing two FRS, it is possible that 2 FRS uses most, but not all of his sage chakra (but enough that he cannot toss a 3rd FRS), so he could still have a little left. During the final encounter after emerging from Chibaku Tensei, Naruto immediately lost sage mode after tossing his second FRS, but he had also already created hundreds of henge'd clones.

Naruto used two giant Rasengan, 1 frog Katas, and sent flying away a huge animal before the first FRS. After stating this, the rest is logical.

Professor
March 25, 2010, 06:13 PM
I've been considering a lot of things pertaining to sasuke and naruto. After re-reading chapter 403 i believe itachi gave naruto some of his powers to counteract some of sasuke's powers should he gain EMS and attack the village. It could also be one of the reasons why naruto's resolve is so strong after confronting sasuke. I could be overthinking things but its just my two cents.

Lee-tyme7
March 25, 2010, 06:39 PM
NARUTO VS SASUKE

Hey guys with all this talked about who would win if Naruto & Sasuke fought at their current levels, I put up a list of statistic:

Fighting styles:

Tai jutsu= Naruto: fighting style mainly hand to hand combat currently sage mode expert.
Sasuke: doesn't rely much on taijutsu but is also very good in close quarter combat. He have an advantage over taijutsu fighter because of his sharingan. It can see movements before it occur but Naruto sage mode can reach it's opponent before he connect a hit.

winner: Naruto

Genjutsu= Naruto: have none or nothing to counter it unless he can overpower the genjutsu with overwhelming chakras flow.
Sasuke: have MS and is an expert on genjutsu.

winner: obviously Sasuke.

Ninjutsu= Naruto: signature move is the shadow clones very effective long or short range and gain experience once the technique is release. The Rasengan is a difficult A rank technique to learn and very powerful short range attack.
Rasen-Shuriken is a long range attack with deadly result, wipe out anything within it's area radius.
Sasuke: signature move is Chidori very effective short or mid-range and is able to form into a variety of attacks. Dojutsu is an eye technique sasuke have and comes with amaterasu, and susanoo. Both power attack. Kirin is Sasuke most powerful ninjutsu & last resort attack, only use when all but fail. It a natural lightning attack guided by sasuke to strike his oppent down killing him/her with one blow. Completely unavoidable.

winner: Sasuke

Summoning= Naruto have the frogs at myabuku mt. to help with his battle and all are very wise & strong.
Sasuke have Orochimaru's snakes but the big one died and a newly acquire hawk animals to help sasuke in battles. Sasuke also have seal marks all over his body to summon anything he desire: weapons or snakes.

Winner: Naruto

Weapons= Naruto have his kunai a standard issue for all ninjas. Short & mid-range attack. he have shurikens but don't use much.
Sasuke have his favorite sword given to him by Orochimaru it's a mid-range attack and can be molded by chakra for long range attack. Once fuse with lightning element his sword is unblockable cutting down anything in it's path.

Winner: Sasuke

Wow, so there you have it the winner is Sasuke over Naruto 3 to 2 best outta 5.

Ok that pretty much what I have and if I miss anything you guys can add it in and see who gets the upper hands. If you disagree explained and give your opinion and grade them. I know it's long but thanks for reading.

I forgot to mention that Naruto probably can't use the kyubi power due to Sasuke ability to suppress it's dark chakras. The sharingan can control the 9 tail beast.

jdw
March 25, 2010, 06:46 PM
NARUTO VS SASUKE

Hey guys with all this talked about who would win if Naruto & Sasuke fought at their current levels, I put up a list of statistic:

Fighting styles:

Tai jutsu= Naruto: fighting style mainly hand to hand combat currently sage mode expert.
Sasuke: doesn't rely much on taijutsu but is also very good in close quarter combat. He have an advantage over taijutsu fighter because of his sharingan. It can see movements before it occur but Naruto sage mode can reach it's opponent before he connect a hit.

winner: Naruto

Genjutsu= Naruto: have none or nothing to counter it unless he can overpower the genjutsu with overwhelming chakras flow.
Sasuke: have MS and is an expert on genjutsu.

winner: obviously Sasuke.

Ninjutsu= Naruto: signature move is the shadow clones very effective long or short range and gain experience once the technique is release. The Rasengan is a difficult A rank technique to learn and very powerful short range attack.
Rasen-Shuriken is a long range attack with deadly result, wipe out anything within it's area radius.
Sasuke: signature move is Chidori very effective short or mid-range and is able to form into a variety of attacks. Dojutsu is an eye technique sasuke have and comes with amaterasu, and susanoo. Both power attack. Kirin is Sasuke most powerful ninjutsu & last resort attack, only use when all but fail. It a natural lightning attack guided by sasuke to strike his oppent down killing him/her with one blow. Completely unavoidable.

winner: Sasuke

Summoning= Naruto have the frogs at myabuku mt. to help with his battle and all are very wise & strong.
Sasuke have Orochimaru's snakes but the big one died and a newly acquire hawk animals to help sasuke in battles. Sasuke also have seal marks all over his body to summon anthing he desire: weapons or snakes.

Winner: Naruto

Weapons= Naruto have his kunai a standard issue for all ninjas. Short & mid-range attack. he have shurikens but don't use much.
Sasuke have his favorite sword given to him by Orochimaru it's a mid-range attack and can be molded by chakra for long range attack. Once fuse with lightning element his sword is unblockable cutting down anthing in it's path.

Winner: Sasuke

Wow, so there you have it the winner is Sasuke over Naruto 3 to 2 best outta 5.

Ok that pretty much what I have and if I miss anything you guys can add it in and see who gets the upper hands. If you disagree explained and give your opinion and grade them. I know it's long but thanks for reading.


Naruto v. Sasuke

Winner:

http://img265.imageshack.us/img265/7918/46414543.jpg


There it goes.

Delbi
March 25, 2010, 06:57 PM
Naruto v. Sasuke

Winner:

http://img265.imageshack.us/img265/7918/46414543.jpg


There it goes.

I'm curious now how Naruto's word becomes law, when he lacks things to counter Sasuke's techniques. Not saying they both won't die, because it very possible, but I think people are putting too much faith into Naruto's words here.

Darth Executor
March 25, 2010, 07:54 PM
Naruto v. Sasuke

Winner:

http://img265.imageshack.us/img265/7918/46414543.jpg


There it goes.

I think that if they fought right now kishi would cough up a contrived fight where they both die, but realistically naruto can do next to nothing against the MS.
[hr]

Naruto used two giant Rasengan, 1 frog Katas, and sent flying away a huge animal before the first FRS. After stating this, the rest is logical.

He used a bunch of jutsu along with the 2 frs in round 2 as well, so I don't see why this would make a difference. and frog kata is just hand to hand combat. Why would that use up chakra? particularly from someone who has so much of it? so is throwing away a rhino.

M3J
March 25, 2010, 08:22 PM
I think Sasuke has to be manifesting the Kyuubi because that's really the only logical explanation as to how the other half is going to come into play unless it really is still inside the Death God and Madara wants to go fish it out, which I think is highly unlikely.

As for there being no evidence, I think there is quite a bit that is telling us it's inside manifesting inside of him. Granted, we have to assume a few things, but I think my theory holds a lot of merit to it.

In any event, we'll have to wait and see what happens. I don't think Madara is just having Sasuke gain more and more hatred for shits and giggles.
I don't think Madara is aware of the other half being sealed inside the Reaper though. How can he or anyone get the other half of the Kyuubi in the Reaper, especially when there's no knowledge as to where it is?


Wait a minute, could Madara want the Rin'negan because he wants to read further into the Uchiha tablet? He did say the Sharingan can read the tablet, then the MS can decypher more of the tablet and the Rin'negan can decypher even more then the MS. Judging by this, I'm gonna say Sharingan can read 33.3% of the tablet, MS can read 66.6% of the tablet. Maybe Madara needs the Rin'negan to read the rest of it. Wow, there might be something which Madara doesn't even know, and with the Rin'negan he would know all the secrets.

This would be better then him using it for power -_-;

No, I think he knows what it says. He probably used Nagato to help tell him.

Weapon_X
March 25, 2010, 08:46 PM
No, I think he knows what it says. He probably used Nagato to help tell him.

How could he have used Negato when the Uchiha tablet is in Konoha?

Rikudou King
March 25, 2010, 08:57 PM
How could he have used Negato when the Uchiha tablet is in Konoha? By using his teleportation to sneak in. We already know he was wandering around Konoha before the massacre.

M3J
March 25, 2010, 09:22 PM
How could he have used Negato when the Uchiha tablet is in Konoha?

He could have sneaked in Konoha. Being former Konoha, he has probably has ways to get in undetected, and he could have used his space/time ninjutsu. He probably worked as their ANBU, judging from the way he dressed in Itachi's flashback.

DarkPrinceRevan
March 26, 2010, 02:22 AM
when it comes to Pre-sage mode clone summoning and chakra, Naruto had also created two clones back at Myoubokuzan to gather Natural Energy, so that might contribute to why he could only throw one FRS at that time before exiting sage mode.

As for why he is still in sage mode after tossing two FRS, it is possible that 2 FRS uses most, but not all of his sage chakra (but enough that he cannot toss a 3rd FRS), so he could still have a little left. During the final encounter after emerging from Chibaku Tensei, Naruto immediately lost sage mode after tossing his second FRS, but he had also already created hundreds of henge'd clones.

i made a post about this a few weeks ago in the senjutsu thread, heres what i came up with


to me there seems like a confusion created by kishi about how long naruto can stay in sage mode when using the rasenshuriken

first off lets see how much damage naruto does before his sage mode times out:

Naruto arrives in konoha in sage mode. He has two clones molding senjutsu back at the mountain. he can only make two clones max while those first two are concentrating.
One rasengan on asura pain
Two shadow clones that each use a sage odama rasengan (releases those two clones)
Naruto from the looks of it gathers more natural energy after the panel where pa describes what happened when naruto one shotted preta pain
Two more shadow clones that help him make the rasenshuriken that took out humain pain (releases those clones)
By this time he claims he wont be able to maintain sage mode much longer so he uses the rasenrengan to take out animal pain
Gets back into sage mode after releasing the first clone from the mountain and quickly summons two more clones that make the rasenshuirken that is absorbed by the revived preta pain
Narutos create a smoke screen with the rasenrengan with the help of his clones
One of the clones throws a rasenshuriken that is a transformed naruto
One of the clones throws the real rasenshuriken is dispelled by the renewed deva pain (presumably that clone is released)
The second clone hit’s the naraka pain with a new pair of rasenrengan through an opening created by the real naruto (I assume an additional clone was used and later release since naruto’s max number of clones he could use went up to three after he releases one of the ones back on the mountain)
The real naruto and the last clone are hit with shinra tensei and that clone dispels
Naruto goes back into sage mode after the kyuubi resides and the last clone on the mountain was disturbed and forcefully dispelled
Naruto creates the army of clones that transform into rocks
Naruto creates two more clones that create the back to back rasenshuriken that he throws at deva pain

so in the first instance he fights in sage mode one rasenshuriken is equal to one rasengan, two sage odama rasengans, and one rasenshuriken plus the number of clones used to create each jutsu before naruto is out of sage mode.

second time he manages two rasenshuriken, one rasenshuriken transformed naruto, and one rasenrengan (two if you ask me cause originally the real naruto made the jutsu to create the dust cloud but naraka pain is destroyed by clone with the rasenrengan) before naruto is forced out of sage mode by preta pain.

third time he gets off the two rasenshuriken and the dozens of clones he transforms into rocks before naruto is out of sage mode.

elitefox
March 26, 2010, 03:01 AM
uhmm, why do everyone think Naruto can't do anything to MS?

Hirashima only has wood and super strength and yeah he spank and humiliate the proud uchiha bitch?

why wouldn't naruto?

Naruto is immortal, he will revived after dying lol, stab him to the heart he will regenerate
kirin him, naruto will regenerate
shoot him will an arrow, he will regenerate or he may even catch that to show show sasuke then say "ooh, scary" :D

There are many many ways to block vision and for naruto its a long list + experience in the fight itself.

Naruto grows in training as well as in fights.

Centrelink
March 26, 2010, 03:09 AM
Now this is just complete speculation. If Kakashi can unlock MS, why wouldn't an Uchiha be able to unlock Sharingan with any set of eyes? I'm not saying transplanting eyes would work, but your logic doesn't apply either.

Lets think about this
obtain MS: ""Feel the pain of a deep loss" originally it was that you had to kill your best friend. This ended up being proven wrong and we were told it was the above. (For kakashi) we all know he has lost most of his family and friends growing up as a ninja.

To obtain an EMS - take your "brothers" eyes (which btw has NEVER been proven that kakashi even has) it MIGHT count that his original eye was removed from his team mate and friend.

So assuming kakashi even has an EMS this could explain it.

Query me this, if a uchia was born without eyes....later he killed his best friend and stole his eyes. Do you think that he would just have normal eyes? or do you think that would unlock the next few steps as he got more competent at controlling the sharingun?

elitefox
March 26, 2010, 03:20 AM
Lets think about this
obtain MS: ""Feel the pain of a deep loss" originally it was that you had to kill your best friend. This ended up being proven wrong and we were told it was the above. (For kakashi) we all know he has lost most of his family and friends growing up as a ninja.

To obtain an EMS - take your "brothers" eyes (which btw has NEVER been proven that kakashi even has) it MIGHT count that his original eye was removed from his team mate and friend.

So assuming kakashi even has an EMS this could explain it.

Query me this, if a uchia was born without eyes....later he killed his best friend and stole his eyes. Do you think that he would just have normal eyes? or do you think that would unlock the next few steps as he got more competent at controlling the sharingun?

or what we don't know is that kakashi has


"HATE" in his heart


since uchiha's powers come from hate right.

M3J
March 26, 2010, 01:41 PM
Lets think about this
obtain MS: ""Feel the pain of a deep loss" originally it was that you had to kill your best friend. This ended up being proven wrong and we were told it was the above. (For kakashi) we all know he has lost most of his family and friends growing up as a ninja.

To obtain an EMS - take your "brothers" eyes (which btw has NEVER been proven that kakashi even has) it MIGHT count that his original eye was removed from his team mate and friend.

So assuming kakashi even has an EMS this could explain it.

Query me this, if a uchia was born without eyes....later he killed his best friend and stole his eyes. Do you think that he would just have normal eyes? or do you think that would unlock the next few steps as he got more competent at controlling the sharingun?
For all we know though, Kakashi may have found a new way to unlock Mangekyo Sharingan. He didn't unveil the MS or even hinted at it until the second part, so my assumption is that during the timeskip, he somehow obtained MS or knowing more about MS, tried to activate it.

Obtaining an EMS I think has to do with switching Sharingan with another eye, so I do think Kakashi has EMS. He also has never shown signs of blindness, and the fact that Madara can use space/time ninjutsu, being a known EMS'er, further makes me believe Kakashi does have EMS. I think EMS is activated automatically whenever Sharingan switches, but it requires MS to be unlocked.

I think the Uchiha would have normal eyes unless Sharingan itself was unlocked and he did something to unlock MS. If he killed his friend BEFORE eye transplant, it may not work as I think he might not be as emotional.


Now this is just complete speculation. If Kakashi can unlock MS, why wouldn't an Uchiha be able to unlock Sharingan with any set of eyes? I'm not saying transplanting eyes would work, but your logic doesn't apply either.

Apparently unlocking Sharingan requires emotion. It was the same with Sasuke and Obito. They were in a dangerous situation trying to protect their friends, which resulted in the appearance of Sharingan. An Uchiha might be able to do the same with another set of eyes since they still have the bloodline to do so.


Apologies if I am completely off the track with the topic here.

Weapon_X
March 26, 2010, 07:43 PM
By using his teleportation to sneak in. We already know he was wandering around Konoha before the massacre.

So you're saying Madara stole the Uchiha tablet from Konoha and then gave it to Negato to read it? I doubt it since Sasuke read it after the massacre, and the tablet still remains in Konoha. Madara would have read the tablet when he WAS in Konoha(young Madara), when he had MS etc
[hr]

He could have sneaked in Konoha. Being former Konoha, he has probably has ways to get in undetected, and he could have used his space/time ninjutsu. He probably worked as their ANBU, judging from the way he dressed in Itachi's flashback.

Again, how does NEGATO reading the tablet come into this? Madara can only read what MS can decipher, he couldn't have stolen the tablet because Sasuke read it when he was 12 or 13. You do know I thought about the possibility of him sneaking it but it doesn't make sense.

M3J
March 26, 2010, 07:49 PM
So you're saying Madara stole the Uchiha tablet from Konoha and then gave it to Negato to read it? I doubt it since Sasuke read it after the massacre, and the tablet still remains in Konoha. Madara would have read the tablet when he WAS in Konoha(young Madara), when he had MS etc
<hr noshade size="1">


Again, how does NEGATO reading the tablet come into this? Madara can only read what MS can decipher, he couldn't have stolen the tablet because Sasuke read it when he was 12 or 13. You do know I thought about the possibility of him sneaking it but it doesn't make sense.

Nagato has Rinnegan, he can read the rest. And Madara could have stolen the tablet and then put it back to where it belonged. Never know.
Why not?

Smokes
March 26, 2010, 08:13 PM
Again, how does NEGATO reading the tablet come into this? Madara can only read what MS can decipher, he couldn't have stolen the tablet because Sasuke read it when he was 12 or 13. You do know I thought about the possibility of him sneaking it but it doesn't make sense.

I don't think he'd have to take it. The Konoha barrier system only detects people entering Konoha who break the barrier. IIRC, they had to run around and find the Pain bodies after they got in.

Madara doesn't have to. He can appear wherever the tablet is and we've seen him use that power to transport Sasuke and Karin so he could probably just take one of Nagato's bodies with him to read it. Negato could just hide in a paper tree outside Konoha or something.

I think he could have done it that way...or rather I can't really think of why that way wouldn't work.

That group as a whole has ridiculous powers.

Rikudou King
March 26, 2010, 09:06 PM
So you're saying Madara stole the Uchiha tablet from Konoha and then gave it to Negato to read it? I doubt it since Sasuke read it after the massacre, and the tablet still remains in Konoha. Madara would have read the tablet when he WAS in Konoha(young Madara), when he had MS etc. Madara could have just taken Nagato or one of the bodies into the shrine to read it. We already know that Madara can transport people with himself and that he was hanging around Konoha for some time without being detected by anyone beside Itachi. Madara could have easily just waited til all the Uchihas were busy and pop in with Deva Path. Nagato would read the tablet and then they pop out with no one the wiser. Heck, He could have done it during the massacre when they were all dead.

Shisu
March 27, 2010, 05:03 AM
Madara could have just taken Nagato or one of the bodies into the shrine to read it. We already know that Madara can transport people with himself and that he was hanging around Konoha for some time without being detected by anyone beside Itachi. Madara could have easily just waited til all the Uchihas were busy and pop in with Deva Path. Nagato would read the tablet and then they pop out with no one the wiser. Heck, He could have done it during the massacre when they were all dead.

Moreover, we know Zetsu has the ability to record things. Madara/Nagato didn't even had to enter the shrine.

GOOMOONRYONG
March 27, 2010, 10:31 AM
For all we know though, Kakashi may have found a new way to unlock Mangekyo Sharingan. He didn't unveil the MS or even hinted at it until the second part, so my assumption is that during the timeskip, he somehow obtained MS or knowing more about MS, tried to activate it.

Obtaining an EMS I think has to do with switching Sharingan with another eye, so I do think Kakashi has EMS. He also has never shown signs of blindness, and the fact that Madara can use space/time ninjutsu, being a known EMS'er, further makes me believe Kakashi does have EMS. I think EMS is activated automatically whenever Sharingan switches, but it requires MS to be unlocked.




Apologies if I am completely off the track with the topic here.

No way he even asked Itachi about how bad his eyesight had gotten, which I'm pretty confident Kakashi had experienced which is why he said it. I don't think he has EMS the requirements were not filled in Kakashi's situation.

M3J
March 27, 2010, 07:00 PM
No way he even asked Itachi about how bad his eyesight had gotten, which I'm pretty confident Kakashi had experienced which is why he said it. I don't think he has EMS the requirements were not filled in Kakashi's situation.

He heard Kisame commenting on Itachi's eyes or Itachi talking to Kisame.
Actually, it was. He exchanged eyes with an Uchiha.

Bleda
March 27, 2010, 07:01 PM
I think they probably all have an actual seal on them in some sense:

http://img641.imageshack.us/img641/8371/1516n.jpg

I always thought they wouldn't be able to extract kyuuby at all since half of his chakra (yin side) is sealed with dobuel 4 point something seal and other side is sealed with Shiki Fujin which makes that half inaccesible to naruto and everyon else and since extraction jutsu works by extracting the whole bijuu and assuming it cant undo the Shiki Fujiin I presume naruto to be imminue to extracting process.

GOOMOONRYONG
March 27, 2010, 07:11 PM
He heard Kisame commenting on Itachi's eyes or Itachi talking to Kisame.
Actually, it was. He exchanged eyes with an Uchiha.

Kakashi never overheard Kisame commenting on his eyesight or heard Itachi talking to Kisame about his eyesight. Unless I am remembering wrong. Yes he exchanged it but that doesn't automatically he gets EMS, at least I don't think it works that way. I happen to believe that MS has to be unlocked first and then transplanted before you can attain EMS. If it was that easy I'm sure the Uchiha would have had EMS users running rampant. Maybe we will get a clarification on Kakashi at some point down the line. He probably never comments on the blindness because he always has the eye covered and is basically blind in that eye most of the time.

M3J
March 27, 2010, 07:26 PM
Kakashi never overheard Kisame commenting on his eyesight or heard Itachi talking to Kisame about his eyesight. Unless I am remembering wrong. Yes he exchanged it but that doesn't automatically he gets EMS, at least I don't think it works that way. I happen to believe that MS has to be unlocked first and then transplanted before you can attain EMS. If it was that easy I'm sure the Uchiha would have had EMS users running rampant. Maybe we will get a clarification on Kakashi at some point down the line. He probably never comments on the blindness because he always has the eye covered and is basically blind in that eye most of the time.

I thought he did. Did Kisame or Itachi mention it during that fight? Jiraiya or Guy, Kurenai, or Asuma could have told him this.
I think EMS can be unlocked, but not used without unlocking MS. And maybe little to no Uchiha knew about MS/EMS.

En Yang Ji
March 27, 2010, 08:29 PM
I can't stop thinking about how the much weaker the Hyuuga's seem than the Uchiha's. The only I think they can compare as far as usefulness is concerned is to become a clan of high level medic nins.

Since they have so much chakra control, they most likely have enough to use medic jutsu. Also since they can see inside other people bodies, they'll have more information to work with and it will be easier for them to tell what's wrong with their patient. The Hyuuga's being masters of the gentle fist style, would be good at dodging, that would keep them alive long enough to heal. They're sensors, who are strong in close quarters combat. They could even increase the chakra flow of their allies by pressing their tenketsu.

They would make excellent medic nins, they just limit themselves too much. The Byakugan would be much better if the Hyuuga didn't stick to just taijutsu. T he Byakugan has a lot untapped potential, even though it still weak in comparison to the sharingan.

Bleda
March 27, 2010, 08:42 PM
Speaking of hyuugas.

Where the hell byakugan comes from? Are tehre any other doujutsus we are not aware of? Otherwise konoha having 2 out of 3 known doujutsu's seems a little suspicious.

$nipe
March 27, 2010, 09:26 PM
For all we know though, Kakashi may have found a new way to unlock Mangekyo Sharingan. He didn't unveil the MS or even hinted at it until the second part, so my assumption is that during the timeskip, he somehow obtained MS or knowing more about MS, tried to activate it.

Obtaining an EMS I think has to do with switching Sharingan with another eye, so I do think Kakashi has EMS. He also has never shown signs of blindness, and the fact that Madara can use space/time ninjutsu, being a known EMS'er, further makes me believe Kakashi does have EMS. I think EMS is activated automatically whenever Sharingan switches, but it requires MS to be unlocked.

I think the Uchiha would have normal eyes unless Sharingan itself was unlocked and he did something to unlock MS. If he killed his friend BEFORE eye transplant, it may not work as I think he might not be as emotional.


I'd hate myself for doing this, but perhaps Kakashi obtained EMS because a person with the other eye managed to gain it. I mean, a person with only one sharingan... :darn

Katz
March 27, 2010, 10:47 PM
I'd hate myself for doing this, but perhaps Kakashi obtained EMS because a person with the other eye managed to gain it. I mean, a person with only one sharingan... :darn

Only problem with that, is Obito said himself his body was crushed completely, that should include his eye as well, but I ono Kishi likes to troll so Obito could make a "magically" comeback...

Xiraiya
March 27, 2010, 11:07 PM
I don't believe he will, I just think What Kakashi and Madara can do are just Jutsu's created from the capabilities of MS.

I don't class them like Susano, amaterasu or Tsukymo or whatever.

Afterall Madara did say that he is still alive only because he Witheld certain Sharingan Secrets from Itachi.

These Secrets I imagine are the S/T altering capabilities that the Mangekyou "can" do since I've never seen Itachi ever reference them or use any S/T jutsus.

Darth Executor
March 28, 2010, 12:19 AM
Awesome Kisame art:

http://weareawesomeness.files.wordpress.com/2009/09/kisame___redesigned_by_vishus7024.jpg
[hr]

Only problem with that, is Obito said himself his body was crushed completely, that should include his eye as well, but I ono Kishi likes to troll so Obito could make a "magically" comeback...

If his eye had been crushed it would mean his entire head was crushed and he would've died instantly.

Katz
March 28, 2010, 12:27 AM
Awesome Kisame art:

http://weareawesomeness.files.wordpress.com/2009/09/kisame___redesigned_by_vishus7024.jpg
<hr noshade size="1">

^great Image btw


If his eye had been crushed it would mean his entire head was crushed and he would've died instantly.

True this is the Naruto-verse, get hit by a lighting ball thru your heart, you got time to carry on a 5 minute conversation with someone, but I get your point

M3J
March 28, 2010, 12:51 AM
I don't believe he will, I just think What Kakashi and Madara can do are just Jutsu's created from the capabilities of MS.

I don't class them like Susano, amaterasu or Tsukymo or whatever.

Afterall Madara did say that he is still alive only because he Witheld certain Sharingan Secrets from Itachi.

These Secrets I imagine are the S/T altering capabilities that the Mangekyou "can" do since I've never seen Itachi ever reference them or use any S/T jutsus.

I think space/time ninjutsu is more associated with EMS, another reason why I think Kakashi has EMS. Madara has EMS and he can do space/time ninjutsu, whereas Itachi and Sasuke can't. Or Sasuke probably couldn't. I guess this because the space warp spirals around with his eye being the center.

Rikudou King
March 28, 2010, 01:43 AM
I thought he did. Did Kisame or Itachi mention it during that fight? Jiraiya or Guy, Kurenai, or Asuma could have told him this.
I think EMS can be unlocked, but not used without unlocking MS. And maybe little to no Uchiha knew about MS/EMS. Kisame did mention it, But only after they had already fled from Jiraiya. There was no one else around to hear it.

According to the Uchiha history, The quest for EMS caused alot of bloodshed, So I would think if there was another way, They would have founded it by now.

hakuthehedgehog
March 28, 2010, 06:35 AM
Perhaphs to get the EMS, you need to have the will of fire or a resolve to protect your comrades.
The Uchiha history is a history of hate, so I don't think they whould try to get the EMS trought other ways if there was an easy way to do it.
Anyways, I agree with M3J, Kakashi should have the MS, since he did gain the space time ninjutsu.

3c
March 28, 2010, 06:54 AM
Except that Kakashi can't possibly have EMS according to Itachi.

"Obviously, this exchange could only be done between clansmen. And simply gaining another's eyes didn't equate to gaining this power" - Uchiha Itachi (http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/386/09/)

This power being EMS, it's not possible for Kakashi to have it as.
He's not a clansmen.
He was a non-Uchiha that "simply gained another's eye".


Kishi already cleverly removed the possibility of Kakashi having EMS right after he introduced it. So unless Kakashi has found another way he can't possibly have it. Personally I see no reason why Kishi would bring in that fact that was obviously meant for Kakashi, if Kakashi simply found another way.

hakuthehedgehog
March 28, 2010, 07:40 AM
Well, Itachi also said that you had to kill your best friend, but that was changed to suffer the loss of a person close to you.
So, Kakashi might've found another way to get EMS, or a similar version of it.

narengan
March 28, 2010, 07:44 AM
Except that Kakashi can't possibly have EMS according to Itachi.

"Obviously, this exchange could only be done between clansmen. And simply gaining another's eyes didn't equate to gaining this power" - Uchiha Itachi (http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/386/09/)

This power being EMS, it's not possible for Kakashi to have it as.
He's not a clansmen.
He was a non-Uchiha that "simply gained another's eye".


Kishi already cleverly removed the possibility of Kakashi having EMS right after he introduced it. So unless Kakashi has found another way he can't possibly have it. Personally I see no reason why Kishi would bring in that fact that was obviously meant for Kakashi, if Kakashi simply found another way.

I think Kakashi is able to get the EMS - We don't know for sure if you need to be an Uchiha and if you really need your brothers eyes for that.
Itachi even stated Kakashis gain of MS as impossible when he first saw it.
http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/257/10/

lastchance
March 28, 2010, 12:01 PM
Except that Kakashi can't possibly have EMS according to Itachi.

"Obviously, this exchange could only be done between clansmen. And simply gaining another's eyes didn't equate to gaining this power" - Uchiha Itachi (http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/386/09/)

This power being EMS, it's not possible for Kakashi to have it as.
He's not a clansmen.
He was a non-Uchiha that "simply gained another's eye".


Kishi already cleverly removed the possibility of Kakashi having EMS right after he introduced it. So unless Kakashi has found another way he can't possibly have it. Personally I see no reason why Kishi would bring in that fact that was obviously meant for Kakashi, if Kakashi simply found another way.

I agree that Kakashi definitely doesn't have EMS, and has no possible way of getting it either.

It makes more sense that since Kakashi is technically the reason for Obito's death, he acquired Mangekyō Sharingan that way.

http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/243/11/
There Obito moves Kakashi's body out of the way, saving Kakashi and making himself die soon. Also, Obito convinced Kakashi to save Rin instead of continuing with the mission. Maybe the fact that Kakashi risked his own eye to save Obito, and in turn Obito awakened his sharigan to save Kakashi, they could be considered bestfriends. It does say they become friends in that chapter: http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/244/10/

Rikudou King
March 28, 2010, 12:36 PM
I think Kakashi is able to get the EMS - We don't know for sure if you need to be an Uchiha and if you really need your brothers eyes for that.
Itachi even stated Kakashis gain of MS as impossible when he first saw it.
http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/257/10/ Itachi probably said that because the last time they fought Kakashi didn't have it.

hakuthehedgehog
March 28, 2010, 02:45 PM
I doubt Kakashi got his MS from Obito's death.
He whould've awaken it sooner if he had it.

nat
March 28, 2010, 03:20 PM
Parody strip
http://fc02.deviantart.net/fs70/f/2010/087/6/5/Naruto_488_parody_side_effects_by_Nivalis70.jpg

http://nivalis70.deviantart.com/art/Naruto-488-parody-side-effects-158731540

Darth Executor
March 28, 2010, 08:05 PM
I doubt Kakashi got his MS from Obito's death.
He whould've awaken it sooner if he had it.

Maybe Rin went evil and he killed her during the timeskip or something.

Katz
March 28, 2010, 08:13 PM
^the way he talks though during part one, Rin was already dead, but that was never confirmed so maybe he did have to kill her, that'd be pretty damn emotional and I believe that could easily push him over the edge

lastchance
March 28, 2010, 08:25 PM
^the way he talks though during part one, Rin was already dead, but that was never confirmed so maybe he did have to kill her, that'd be pretty damn emotional and I believe that could easily push him over the edge

http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/425/02/

Kakashi says he failed to protect Rin right before he dies.

ornis
March 28, 2010, 09:11 PM
Kakashi failed to keep Rin from dying before Kakashi. He says so in your link by noting he's on his way to see his teacher, Obito, and Rin. We know the first two are dead before Kakashi says this. And Kakashi is dying as he is talking here. Minato, Obito, and Rin are therefore in Narutoverse afterlife. Some may think that Kakashi's failing to protect Rin is an event that suffers a loose end. Or they might be joking. There seems to exist some wiggle room whereby people can think that after the timeskip, Kakashi had to kill or couldn't stop something or someone else from killing Rin.

Well...

Kakashi once faced a question concerning his most loved one (http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/177/05/). And he replied with the fact that his loved ones died (http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/177/06/), long ago, before the time skip. Maybe Kakashi's clarifying on page 2 of chapter 425, that Rin was a loved one that died some time long before Sasuke thought about killing her, because Kakashi failed to protect her (from something). Of course, he failed to keep Rin from dying before Kakashi.

Darth Executor
March 28, 2010, 09:57 PM
When he was talking to Sasuke he couldn't have meant that ALL his friends were dead because he still had Asuma and Kurenai and Sarutobi. Gai too. I should note that I don't actually think Rin turned evil, but it is still a small possibility.

hawaplop
March 28, 2010, 10:54 PM
When he was talking to Sasuke he couldn't have meant that ALL his friends were dead because he still had Asuma and Kurenai and Sarutobi. Gai too. I should note that I don't actually think Rin turned evil, but it is still a small possibility.

the ppl you stated arent really his loved ones. they are more like co-workers.
and "Asuma, Kurenai and Sarutobi." Sarutobi is a last name, and you already said Asuma, so you must mean Hiruzen, cuz Konohomaru wouldnt make sense. Hiruzen was already dead when Kakashi had that talk with Sasuke.

It's possible the Kyuubi killed Rin.

M3J
March 29, 2010, 12:19 AM
Kisame did mention it, But only after they had already fled from Jiraiya. There was no one else around to hear it.

According to the Uchiha history, The quest for EMS caused alot of bloodshed, So I would think if there was another way, They would have founded it by now.
I have to read back cuz I'm not totally sure. :s I remember it differently, but it could be me being mixed up or me thinking what I wanna think as a fact. :(

Is it Uchiha history or Itachi's version though? We don't know what's the truth. Itachi lied about many things or was told things that was misleading, which he probably believed as there was no other source of information.


Except that Kakashi can't possibly have EMS according to Itachi.

"Obviously, this exchange could only be done between clansmen. And simply gaining another's eyes didn't equate to gaining this power" - Uchiha Itachi (http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/386/09/)

This power being EMS, it's not possible for Kakashi to have it as.
He's not a clansmen.
He was a non-Uchiha that "simply gained another's eye".


Kishi already cleverly removed the possibility of Kakashi having EMS right after he introduced it. So unless Kakashi has found another way he can't possibly have it. Personally I see no reason why Kishi would bring in that fact that was obviously meant for Kakashi, if Kakashi simply found another way.

There's no proof what Itachi stated was the truth, whether as in him being honest or it just being a theory. Despite not being Uchiha, Kakashi still got Mangekyo. Despite just having Sharingan, Sasuke still overpowered Itachi's Tsukiyomi even though he said Sasuke would need MS to stand against him. Apparently transplanted doujutsu are always activated, until we saw Ao activate and deactivate his Byakugan.

Rikudou King
March 29, 2010, 12:59 AM
Is it Uchiha history or Itachi's version though? We don't know what's the truth. Itachi lied about many things or was told things that was misleading, which he probably believed as there was no other source of information. Well Itachi told it, But so far he hasn't lied or seem to have lied about anything concerning the Uchiha past. Itachi seem to have only lied about his own motives.

M3J
March 29, 2010, 01:23 AM
Well Itachi told it, But so far he hasn't lied or seem to have lied about anything concerning the Uchiha past. Itachi seem to have only lied about his own motives.

But how/where did he learn it from? Probably Madara, right? Madara could have been lying to Itachi, probably to make either him or Sasuke more evil/dark. We know Madara kept Itachi in dark about some things, and Madara is a master manipulator, so he could have lied to Itachi. As Itachi was lying about his motives, he had to lie or bend the truth a bit about other stuff, like Uchiha's quest for EMS being bloody and only done by brothers when he tried to get Sasuke's eyes. Maybe they didn't really know that there was less limit on MS/EMS as they had originally thought, as Madara probably got the idea of eye exchange right when his brother was there.
There hasn't been any mention of Uchiha killing or whatnot though; that'd be more mentioned towards the Massacre as a way to excuse what happened to Uchiha or something. This could be because not a lot of Uchiha unlocked Sharingan though, so. :S

Xiraiya
March 29, 2010, 02:50 AM
i forgot where kishi said it but narutoverse has everything we have except modern weapons; so cars, airplanes and everything from 16th century or above weapon or moderation from war is not in the manga. so expect air conditioner, ipods, and the microsoft label somewhere (LMFAO). except for radio they some how have radios. :blink

I have this personal Belief that in Rikudo's Era, it was right after some sort of apocalyptic event, because we see hints of Technology and Modernization in the Naruto yet, everything we see looks like it's been scavenged or pieced together.

http://img514.imageshack.us/img514/6320/uchiharuins.png

This city looks Rather modern even by today's standards yet it's a Ruin in the Naruto world while looking more modern than the villages.

http://img191.imageshack.us/img191/3572/rainvillruins.png
As we've seen with the Rain Village they SEEM to have Electricity, yet the whole city looks like something that has been pieced together from other things, a patchwork city if you will.

http://img37.imageshack.us/img37/2788/tvs.png

As you can see here the villages don't seem to have much "Long Range" technology and the tech they DO have is very very limited and again looks patched together.

I doubt Kishi will ever go into it, BUT I do feel like the Ninja world is potentially built on the ruins of another Civilization, possibly ours I suppose.

Bonfire01
March 29, 2010, 03:18 AM
There's no proof what Itachi stated was the truth, whether as in him being honest or it just being a theory. Despite not being Uchiha, Kakashi still got Mangekyo. Despite just having Sharingan, Sasuke still overpowered Itachi's Tsukiyomi even though he said Sasuke would need MS to stand against him. Apparently transplanted doujutsu are always activated, until we saw Ao activate and deactivate his Byakugan.

I'm not sure that is really the case. Itachi was never trying to actually beat Sasuke, he was trying to force him to use up all his reatsu and release Oro so he could seal him then let Sasuke hill him. So I don't think we can be sure Sasuke overpowered Itachi's Genjutsu... in fact everything we've seen since suggests Sasuke is leagues behind Itachi in genjutsu.

On the other hand I tend to agree with you about the possibility of Kakashi having the potential to gain EMS. Kishi has changed his mind about Dojutsu a lot and I could see him allowing it if he felt the urge....

BUT, I don't think he has it now because of him asking Itachi how much his eyesight had deteriorated and Itachi then acting surprised and wondering when Kakashi had gained MS.

http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/257/09/

that makes me think Kakashi had noticed some deterioration in the vision of his own sharingan eye from learning his MS technique and practicing with it...

EDIT: While I think of it.... the fact that Itachi thought of Kakashi gaining MS as "impossible" means that he obviously doesn't know everything there is to know about the sharingan. So even if he's not lied when he has talked about it, he might have just been wrong...

Xiraiya
March 29, 2010, 03:40 AM
Supposidly Madara was the only EMS user in history, Sasuke now being the second, Other than Madara, his brother, Sasuke and Itachi I don't think many had MS, it was rare enough that an Uchiha even unlocked Sharingan back when the clan was alive.

So I doubt there have been any other than the current known MS users, aside from maybe One or two.

Gcat88
March 29, 2010, 08:18 AM
Naruto-world is not fair at all!! Not all matches are unfair, but a lot are. I think that the last couple of matches will be multiple people versus one. But hey that doesnt matter, the loser would have died no matter how many fought it!! I doubt we will meet another MS user, and theres no way we will see another EMS;besides Sasuke and Madara!!!

jdw
March 29, 2010, 08:37 AM
Nagato was sickly. We have absolutely no idea how much of a fighting shape his real body was in, and if it was in one at all.

We don't know for sure, but we had enough info to know that he summoned up the complete figure and returned lives (http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/449/03/) to all who died during the invasion. It also appeared to be the same demon/monster/creature that Nagato was using to read minds & reap souls (http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/426/02/). Also, after Naruto arrived, Konan seemed to keep telling Nagato to act, but she only really became concerned once he began Gedo Rinne Tensei, which tells me that he could have done more against Naruto if he desired.

THM Nindo
March 29, 2010, 09:46 AM
Supposidly Madara was the only EMS user in history, Sasuke now being the second, Other than Madara, his brother, Sasuke and Itachi I don't think many had MS, it was rare enough that an Uchiha even unlocked Sharingan back when the clan was alive.

So I doubt there have been any other than the current known MS users, aside from maybe One or two.

Yeah...
But there's seem to be some inconsistency...

I thought that Madara was the only one to achieve EMS (Sasuke being the second), but Itachi said that for centuries the Uchiha have been killing their brother to steal their eyes (isn't that what they need to do to get EMS?!)

So those that mean that there were other EMS users, before?!

Xiraiya
March 29, 2010, 09:53 AM
Yeah...
But there's seem to be some inconsistency...

I thought that Madara was the only one to achieve EMS (Sasuke being the second), but Itachi said that for centuries the Uchiha have been killing their brother to steal their eyes (isn't that what they need to do to get EMS?!)

So those that mean that there were other EMS users, before?!

Centuries HAS to be a translation error, Madara and Izuna were the first Two MS users ever weren't they? and that was only like 80 years ago.

Darth Executor
March 29, 2010, 10:02 AM
We don't know for sure, but we had enough info to know that he summoned up the complete figure and returned lives (http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/449/03/) to all who died during the invasion. It also appeared to be the same demon/monster/creature that Nagato was using to read minds & reap souls (http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/426/02/). Also, after Naruto arrived, Konan seemed to keep telling Nagato to act, but she only really became concerned once he began Gedo Rinne Tensei, which tells me that he could have done more against Naruto if he desired.

Minor correction: Enma was not used to read minds, just to judge if someone was telling the truth or not and kill them if they lied. He's based on a buddhist god who doubles up as a japanese boogey man because parents use him to threaten their children that enma would rip out their tongues if they lie.

KiSwordsman
March 29, 2010, 10:28 AM
Yeah...
But there's seem to be some inconsistency...

I thought that Madara was the only one to achieve EMS (Sasuke being the second), but Itachi said that for centuries the Uchiha have been killing their brother to steal their eyes (isn't that what they need to do to get EMS?!)

So those that mean that there were other EMS users, before?!

I dont think that that is the only condition needed to achieve the eternal mangekyo. Itachi said that simply gaining anothers eyes did not equate to gaining the power of the EMS

http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/386/09/

So there is most likely more to it then just putting your brothers eyes in your head. Something like activating Amaterasu Tsukuyomi and Susanoo and then going through with the transplant. This could explain why Madara wanted Sasuke to achieve Susanoo.

http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/467/09/

jdw
March 29, 2010, 10:30 AM
Minor correction: Enma was not used to read minds, just to judge if someone was telling the truth or not and kill them if they lied. He's based on a buddhist god who doubles up as a japanese boogey man because parents use him to threaten their children that enma would rip out their tongues if they lie.

That's what i meant, to read their minds to see if they were lying. The other Pain was able to extract more info, like against Shizune to determine Naruto's location, etc :)

Darth Executor
March 29, 2010, 10:58 AM
I have this personal Belief that in Rikudo's Era, it was right after some sort of apocalyptic event, because we see hints of Technology and Modernization in the Naruto yet, everything we see looks like it's been scavenged or pieced together.

http://img514.imageshack.us/img514/6320/uchiharuins.png

This city looks Rather modern even by today's standards yet it's a Ruin in the Naruto world while looking more modern than the villages.

http://img191.imageshack.us/img191/3572/rainvillruins.png
As we've seen with the Rain Village they SEEM to have Electricity, yet the whole city looks like something that has been pieced together from other things, a patchwork city if you will.

http://img37.imageshack.us/img37/2788/tvs.png

As you can see here the villages don't seem to have much "Long Range" technology and the tech they DO have is very very limited and again looks patched together.

I doubt Kishi will ever go into it, BUT I do feel like the Ninja world is potentially built on the ruins of another Civilization, possibly ours I suppose.

Kishi said in an interview that Naruto technology is at about the same level as ours, with the exception of combustibles (and I include modern weapons here). I'm guessing the reason why it's not very common is that because without fossil fuels it would be expensive and difficult to maintain. fossil fuels = cheap electricity, more or less.

M3J
March 29, 2010, 11:29 AM
I'm not sure that is really the case. Itachi was never trying to actually beat Sasuke, he was trying to force him to use up all his reatsu and release Oro so he could seal him then let Sasuke hill him. So I don't think we can be sure Sasuke overpowered Itachi's Genjutsu... in fact everything we've seen since suggests Sasuke is leagues behind Itachi in genjutsu.
What better way to try and force him to use up his chakra than use Tsukiyomi to really tire him out? I think Itachi was also testing Sasuke, seeing his power, I think.
He is leagues behind Itachi in genjutsu, casting it anyway. How do we know if he's worse than Itachi at dispelling genjustu? Apart from Itachi's and Orochimaru's genjutsu, at least in part I, Sasuke's done well enough getting out of genjutsu as well as casting genjutsu. He cast basic genjutsu on Danzou, which helped Sasuke win. He used genjutsu on Deidara, who supposedly made himself immune to genjutsu.


On the other hand I tend to agree with you about the possibility of Kakashi having the potential to gain EMS. Kishi has changed his mind about Dojutsu a lot and I could see him allowing it if he felt the urge....

BUT, I don't think he has it now because of him asking Itachi how much his eyesight had deteriorated and Itachi then acting surprised and wondering when Kakashi had gained MS.

http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/257/09/

that makes me think Kakashi had noticed some deterioration in the vision of his own sharingan eye from learning his MS technique and practicing with it...
He knew using MS reduced eyesight because of what Kisame said in front of him and in front of Jiraiya (assuming Jiraiya shared the info). If his eyesight has gotten worse, Kakashi made no comment about it, though that doesn't mean his eyesight didn't get worse as Kishi might have expected us to assume that.
I was about to say I didn't think Kakashi used MS much since he knew the seal would progress faster with each usage. then I just remembered, no one probably told him that, thus he probably didn't know. It was the same with Madara, he didn't know why he was getting blind. :s


EDIT: While I think of it.... the fact that Itachi thought of Kakashi gaining MS as "impossible" means that he obviously doesn't know everything there is to know about the sharingan. So even if he's not lied when he has talked about it, he might have just been wrong...
It could be because he had gotten wrong info or was lied to. Madara was his mentor and did teach him a lot about MS, if I recall correctly.

Kisame advised (http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/147/16/) Itachi against using his eyes so many times, in front of Jiraiya and Naruto. I would like to say Gai too, but the fact that he interfered way after Itachi and Kisame left leaves me no doubt he wasn't anywhere close when Kisame said that. :( Against Kakashi, Kisame warns (http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/142/19/) Itachi about his MS usage.

Kakashi apparently knew about Mangekyo (http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/142/15/) since he told Kurenai and Asuma to close their eyes. He could have been cautious, however, since he didn't tell them to run away because of Amaterasu.

The epicness (http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/141/19-20/) of Kakashi. He was so awesome in the first part. :shakefist
And apparently Jiraiya told (http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/143/09/) Kakashi to watch after Sasuke while he watches Naruto. :o
Lulz (http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/144/03/) at Naruto being "oookay" at Jiraya. xD

Rikudou King
March 29, 2010, 12:36 PM
But how/where did he learn it from? Probably Madara, right? Madara could have been lying to Itachi, probably to make either him or Sasuke more evil/dark. We know Madara kept Itachi in dark about some things, and Madara is a master manipulator, so he could have lied to Itachi. As Itachi was lying about his motives, he had to lie or bend the truth a bit about other stuff, like Uchiha's quest for EMS being bloody and only done by brothers when he tried to get Sasuke's eyes. Maybe they didn't really know that there was less limit on MS/EMS as they had originally thought, as Madara probably got the idea of eye exchange right when his brother was there.
There hasn't been any mention of Uchiha killing or whatnot though; that'd be more mentioned towards the Massacre as a way to excuse what happened to Uchiha or something. This could be because not a lot of Uchiha unlocked Sharingan though, so. :S Itachi could have learnt it from Madara, But seeing as he didn't seem to believe Madara's story about how he got his brother's eyes, I doubt he trusted Madara's word completely. It would seem that the Uchihas kept track of their own history, Since they had records on the abilities of the MS and the tablet about the Rikudou Sennin and Juubi. So there was likely info on it elsewhere.

Sema
March 30, 2010, 03:56 AM
I have been thinking about this for a while. What of if the complex seal Minato did on Naruto came with special time space ninjutsu. If I recollect accurately, the battle between Minato and Kyuubi, Minato realised none of his techniques had an effect on Madara, so may be he designed a seal that requires the amount and unpredictabilty of a bijuu's chakra. I would have started a thread but since my thoughts are not developed well, I was hoping someone will flesh it out that's why I decided to post it here before I forget.

Darth Executor
March 30, 2010, 05:41 PM
No the thing which was weird was the "plan", and the situation when Kisame switched.
It's true that deceiving your opponent by let him believing you're dead is veru ninjalike as I said before, but the way it was showed seemed like "broken". Which is not the case of course.

I don't see what's broken about it. Madara sets kisame off to find hachibi and capture him slowly by infiltrating kumo (it's also possible Kisame's mission is not just to catch KB but to actually do something in Kumo only kishi didn't show that part of the conversation because he doesn't want the reader to know yet). Kisame fights killerbee, senses raikage is nearby in his fused form and realizes there's no way he can get away with raikage's sensor on his ass so he does the switch with zetsu and lets samehada get captured instead. I'm guessing the reason why it seems weird is because madara did not know where killerbee was so he gave kisame orders tailored to the most likely scenario (that bee would be close to raikage and a direct attack would be difficult). Kisame would have tracked and attacked bee, possibly against overwhelming odds, gotten "killed" and then could capture bee and bring him back when he had a good chance of doing it safely with kumo not knowing any better or expecting him to do it. It just happens that he got somewhat lucky and bee was only with a couple of useless companions when he found him, and then lost that luck when raikage showed up.
[hr]

Before Zetsu/Kisame got his head cut off, Zetsu was about to do a Jitsu WaterBullet , meaning that Zetsu clone could copy anyone jitsus.

Or he faked it for show since he knew he was about to "die". Or he can copy people's jutsu. So what?


Plus Zetsu has a Firstperson memory flashback of when Bee threw the lightingcharged pencil at him! instead of flashback of watching bee throw the pencil at the real kisame!

lolwut?

If zetsu was a spore on kisame's body he would have the same perspective as kisame. Nevermind that the flashback isn't even "first person":

http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/473/03/

There's a shot of bee throwing the pencil (which is just a copy of the one on this page (http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/470/11/)), kisame dodging it (apparently "first person" means "can see your own face" to you), the pencil hitting a tree, and kisame (who according to your logic is now having a full out of body experience) fighting bee.

BlackSwimmer
March 30, 2010, 06:30 PM
I don't see what's broken about it. Madara sets kisame off to find hachibi and capture him slowly by infiltrating kumo (it's also possible Kisame's mission is not just to catch KB but to actually do something in Kumo only kishi didn't show that part of the conversation because he doesn't want the reader to know yet).

http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/472/13/
It is a recon with Kisame coming back to life. The samhada fused with the real kisame, and then transformed back right infront of Bee. The 8tails was there to witness it all and he would have see Kisame sneek inside the sword and watch Zetsu come out of the ground to transform into Kisame with the bigscar on his body from getting hit with the Lariat. Even in all his "though Bubbles" of kisame thinking tohimself, he did not say or think of anything as if it were planned or as if it was Zetsu. Plus Zetsu only has a span of 2 minutes to do this and he would have to have done it infront of a bunch of witnesses. It was clearly not planned for Kisame to live and it is a recon. thank you
[hr]
Sasake is going to be piiiiiissed when he finds out that Kabato revived Itachi. What is Madura going to do by trying to recruit Kabato when Kabato wants to kill Sasake anyways? Plus how strong is Nagato and Itachi gonna be without their eye powers? Itachi is a good ninja but he isnt as strong without his Susuno and Sword of tetsiga

Darth Executor
March 30, 2010, 06:40 PM
http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/472/13/
It is a recon with Kisame coming back to life. The samhada fused with the real kisame, and then transformed back right infront of Bee.

No, that's what kishi wanted you (and bee) to see. Based on zetsu's explanation and everything else we know, here's what actually happened:

1. Kisame kicks bee's ass underwater. bee tries to run away and fills the water up with ink.
2. Kisame kicks bee's ass again. while still underwater and fused he senses raikage and/or a sensor detecting him (fused kisame is a sensor and we can see from the kage meeting that when a sensor is scanning a room other sensors in it can pick up on it) and sets madara's plan in motion.
3. Kisame retreats into samehada and a zetsu spore grows in his place, possibly fusing with samehada or just taking his shape
4. the zetsu clone turns into kisame from the fused shape, making bee and the reader think it's still kisame.
5. raikage shows up, him and bee kill the zetsu clone and kisame's inside samehada waiting to catch bee and/or do whatever he needs to do inside kumo. I speculated that his mission is also to steal the jinchuuriki training program so he can better put the bijuu he has to good use. we'll find out if this happens later.


The 8tails was there to witness it all and he would have see Kisame sneek inside the sword and watch Zetsu come out of the ground to transform into Kisame with the bigscar on his body from getting hit with the Lariat. Even in all his "though Bubbles" of kisame thinking tohimself, he did not say or think of anything as if it were planned or as if it was Zetsu.

Kishi was quite clearly trying to get people to think kisame was dead so of course he wouldn't reveal anything in the thought bubbles. -_-;

And why would zetsu come out of the ground? If he was with kisame he almost certainly was an invisible spore attached to kisame that could pop up when needed like he did at the kage meeting or like he did to protect sasuke.


Plus Zetsu only has a span of 2 minutes to do this and he would have to have done it infront of a bunch of witnesses. It was clearly not planned for Kisame to live and it is a recon. thank you


There were no witnesses. Hachibi filled up the water with ink giving zetsu/kisame a perfect chance to make the switch without anyone seeing him do it. Zetsu confirmed the switch took place inside kisame's water dome.

BlackSwimmer
March 30, 2010, 06:44 PM
No, that's what kishi wanted you (and bee) to see. Based on zetsu's explanation and everything else we know, here's what actually happened:

the way you justify it, it does kind of make sense. like how samhada attacks zetsu and zetsu has to kick it... but then i guess all the little plot holes are nitpicky and anyone could nitpick any tiny small plot, so i am satisfied with your answer about the possible not a recon.

Delbi
March 30, 2010, 07:04 PM
the way you justify it, it does kind of make sense. like how samhada attacks zetsu and zetsu has to kick it... but then i guess all the little plot holes are nitpicky and anyone could nitpick any tiny small plot, so i am satisfied with your answer about the possible not a recon.

This is extremely similar to what Bee did with Sasuke, only in this instance, Zetsu was involved.

Everything about Kisame's death was shit. EVERY Akatsuki member has either got killed in some crazy jutsu, or they died in some symbolic way. Kisame "died" in neither of those fashions, so it's no wonder he really wasn't dead.

Destined_One
March 30, 2010, 08:13 PM
This is extremely similar to what Bee did with Sasuke, only in this instance, Zetsu was involved.

Everything about Kisame's death was shit. EVERY Akatsuki member has either got killed in some crazy jutsu, or they died in some symbolic way. Kisame "died" in neither of those fashions, so it's no wonder he really wasn't dead.

It was sort of similar to Kakashi's death. Although he did die, a character of such importance would have received an entire chapter devoted to his death, just like Jiraiya, Asuma and Hiruzen, If it was his final moments. It is why we all assumed Kakashi was either still alive, or was returning. Many people predicted the same with Kisame. Every Akatsuki, have revealed there reasons for joining, and had back story on there lives. Kisame recieved absolutely none of it. Also the play on words with Zetsu-clone using Daikudon No jutsu, is rather humorous now everything is revealed.

jdw
March 30, 2010, 09:53 PM
It was sort of similar to Kakashi's death. Although he did die, a character of such importance would have received an entire chapter devoted to his death, just like Jiraiya, Asuma and Hiruzen, If it was his final moments. It is why we all assumed Kakashi was either still alive, or was returning. Many people predicted the same with Kisame. Every Akatsuki, have revealed there reasons for joining, and had back story on there lives. Kisame recieved absolutely none of it. Also the play on words with Zetsu-clone using Daikudon No jutsu, is rather humorous now everything is revealed.

Hidan and Kakuzu didn't receive much of anything at all in the manga compared to other members of Akatsuki.

Xiraiya
March 30, 2010, 10:03 PM
Hidan and Kakuzu didn't receive much of anything at all in the manga compared to other members of Akatsuki.

True, I personally think Kakuzu should have had a Back story. Especially since HE is the one who "apparently killed Hashirama.

NAM61
March 30, 2010, 10:15 PM
True, I personally think Kakuzu should have had a Back story. Especially since HE is the one who "apparently killed Hashirama.

he did not kill shodai hokage he just fought him. then he went to his village and stole the jutsu he had to become immortal because they put him in prison or something for failing to take out hashirama. .

Xiraiya
March 30, 2010, 10:41 PM
he did not kill shodai hokage he just fought him. then he went to his village and stole the jutsu he had to become immortal because they put him in prison or something for failing to take out hashirama. .

But he had Hashirama's heart, so... and I don't remember that being the reason for his imprisonment.

M3J
March 30, 2010, 10:49 PM
Where was it said he killed Shodaime or took his heart?

NAM61
March 30, 2010, 10:49 PM
But he had Hashirama's heart, so... and I don't remember that being the reason for his imprisonment.

here is his data book entry it says he was defeated by shodai

Main text

Page 1

What cued Kakuzu into achieving a way to prowl across time itself (ndt: this is a metaphor, obviously!) goes back to the dawning era of shinobi villages, when nations were still in the process of building them... As one of Takigakure's (Hidden Waterfall) finest, Kakuzu is given the challenging mission to assassinate the Hokage. However, he runs away in defeat before the Mokuton Hijutsu. Although he'd been sent out to meet his near-death, the first things expecting him upon his return were dishonor and severe punishment for a failed mission. Harboring a seething hatred, because of the harsh and unfair treatment applied to a shinobi who's put his life on the line for the sake of his village, Kakuzu breaks out of jail. Stripping the village of its most prized kinjutsu (Forbidden Technique), and all the Village Elders of their hearts along the way...

Page 2

[Masks and Hearts]
Kakuzu's body is covered in countless marks of sewing. They are accurate indications of God knows how many times he's stepped back from death's threshold... He steals the hearts of others, converts them into masks, carving scars into himself as a compensation*. An eternal circle of conflicts and deaths... One might say that is what the history of the shinobi world is all about.


[Capacity of analysis]
Kakuzu's walked a long path as a shinobi. His lengthy journey, he owes to the observation skills he uses to see through people's strengths. And thanks to his staunch will to live, he perfected the capacity of analysis he uses to estimate whether robbing an opponent's heart is feasible or not... The cooperation strategies based upon Kakuzu's abilities, abilities backed up by his extensive knowledge and experience, are put to most efficient use in the Akatsuki's standard "Two-Men Units"-based missions.

[Coldblooded Murderous Intent]
Up until he could obtain his Undying sidekick, Kakuzu butchered every single partner he ever had, gouging out their hearts... That fact demonstrates Kakuzu's boiling anger, concealed behind a mask of composure...

[Akatsuki's Treasurer]
Ever since his desertion from Takigakure, Kakuzu never took part in any organization, making a living out of bounty hunting. Undoubtedly, the reason why he monopolized Akatsuki's financial management upon joining is directly tied to this.
Kakuzu's work to accomplish the Akatsuki's goals involves obtaining increasingly high bounties, which amounts to increased opportunities to meet strong people, and even more logically, getting ahold of their hearts...

Captions

Page 1

-I'll take your heart from you.

-The immortal soldier who races across battlefields; robbing and stitching hearts to obtain life.

Page 2

-The overwhelming battle experience of one who crossed swords even with Shodai Hokage.

-Sound planning, befitting a veteran!!

Picture comments

Page 1

-The dark Jiongu (Infernal Grudge Horrifying**) squirms, as a form of life smeared in Kakuzu's blood.

-The immortal who stocks up other people's lives as provisions. He's already well past the boundaries of mankind.

-In regards with his goals, Kakuzu will display a tenacious commitment. Vestiges of the dedicated samurai he once was surface, even in the inhuman, amoral shell the passing of times reduced him to.

Page 2

-Butchering, excavating, he fabricates his masks...!! The powers of the strong become portions of Kakuzu.

-The masks have multiple purposes, to fully and properly use the opponent's abilities.

-The accumulated memories of life-threatening struggles incite Kakuzu into exerting wisdom of judgment.

-Upon estimating the adversary's skill, he immediately plans the next move...!!

-The hearts of the partners he's butchered until now were turned into masks as well.

-Kakuzu's agreement with Akatsuki denotes how the organization's interests and his own coincide.

Darth Executor
March 31, 2010, 01:19 AM
Where was it said he killed Shodaime or took his heart?

It wasn't. Kakuzu just said he fought Shodai, not that he won.

Smokes
March 31, 2010, 02:00 AM
Kisame was apparently betrayed by samahada, we don't know how this will effect his fighting.

At least one half of zetsu has been declared a non front line fighter.

Madara hasn't done ANYTHING.

Sasuke is one person who did have trouble against Danzou.




Too bad for youI edited a few lines that might be spoilers.


Look, more people make it more interesting, but like I said before, the remaining members are custom made to trounce entire villages.

Zetsu can walk around all day sporing up the place and then Madara can just warp in with Kisame and Sasuke. All the below elite level nin would be done for from just having their chakra consumed by spore clones and Kisame and Sasuke could handle everyone else. And they'd get a ton of extra chakra to do it. They couldn't stop Zetsu from launching that attack even if they knew it was coming because he's undetectable to begin with and if he needed to he could just take a villager's place. Madara is also undetectable when he's warping.

Maybe Mizzy may cause some trouble for them, but until I see people who i think can fight through an amaterasu covered susano'o firing arrows with technique that let them fight with no chakra, I don't see them having any trouble obliterating any village right now.

Madara doesn't even need to show anything else. Being able to insta-infiltrate a village is plenty enough.

Wasabinmynoz
March 31, 2010, 12:58 PM
When I read this I was all Myobokuzan FTW, didn't know where to share it so sorry if its a bit out of the blue -
http://news.bbc.co.uk/earth/hi/earth_news/newsid_8593000/8593396.stm

Sage Mode- Being aware of external chakra sources :p

Wiolin
March 31, 2010, 08:52 PM
There is still a question.To wage a war Madara needs an army.At this moment he has only Sasuke , Zetsu , Kisame and maybe Kabuto.How on earth he plans to wage a war against 5 great ninja nations? With 5 ppl?

vintagemistakes
March 31, 2010, 09:32 PM
There is still a question.To wage a war Madara needs an army.At this moment he has only Sasuke , Zetsu , Kisame and maybe Kabuto.How on earth he plans to wage a war against 5 great ninja nations? With 5 ppl?
Back when Pain was telling Hidan about Akatsukis goals, part of the plan included amassing a large sum of money so that they could hire/maintain a military force. Its reasonable to assume that they have already done just that in some fashion. We just haven't seen it yet.

Delbi
March 31, 2010, 10:57 PM
Back when Pain was telling Hidan about Akatsukis goals, part of the plan included amassing a large sum of money so that they could hire/maintain an military force. Its reasonable to assume that they have already done just that in some fashion. We just haven't seen it just yet.

To add to that, the 3 people currently under Madara are all capable of causing massive chaos.

Sasuke and Kisame are two of the top 5 strongest ninja left in the manga by far. The two of them walking into a ninja village could mean it's destruction.

Zetsu can make clones of anyone and there is no way of telling the difference unless you fight them. The Civil unrest between villages that can cause has no bounds.

O, and Madara has 7 Biju. Yea, Akatsuki is sitting pretty good right now, no army is really needed as long as they stay hidden and strike at the right times.

In the Naruto world, a few power houses are much better than a 1000 fodder ninja.

makko
April 01, 2010, 12:05 AM
How do you guys feel? I'm actually more amped about actually getting a chance to see Tsunade really go full force more than I am the next Naruto fight he has...

jdw
April 01, 2010, 12:14 AM
How do you guys feel? I'm actually more amped about actually getting a chance to see Tsunade really go full force more than I am the next Naruto fight he has...

I dunno, I am not really expecting much from her battle-wise. I think that she doesn't really have much left to do. She can train Sakura some more, tell Naruto about his heritage and related stuff, and it would be awesome if she taught him how to store his chakra in a seal like she uses for her Souzou Saisei technique.

makko
April 01, 2010, 12:26 AM
I dunno, I am not really expecting much from her battle-wise. I think that she doesn't really have much left to do. She can train Sakura some more, tell Naruto about his heritage and related stuff, and it would be awesome if she taught him how to store his chakra in a seal like she uses for her Souzou Saisei technique.

Yea i guess I'm just still hung up on the idea that she might show us more. You know... live up to the name. But yea, def... she could and probably don some of the stuff you said.

pijo
April 01, 2010, 12:48 AM
Yeah, I'm not really expecting any combat from Tsunade. She's back to be the Hokage (most notably, to keep Kakashi from being the Hokage - Carving a masked man into a cliff seems fairly pointless), I doubt we'll see much fighting from her, if at all.

Katz
April 01, 2010, 02:45 AM
I dunno, I am not really expecting much from her battle-wise. I think that she doesn't really have much left to do. She can train Sakura some more, tell Naruto about his heritage and related stuff, and it would be awesome if she taught him how to store his chakra in a seal like she uses for her Souzou Saisei technique.

I wonder if thats a teachable ability though (atleast to a non-medic ninja like Naruto), it says she developed it, but who knows, if he could build up sage chakra into then release it in intervals that would be boss in terms of him not having to create clones etc etc


LOL @ your post count

Cykai
April 01, 2010, 03:50 AM
only up side to April is 4 20

i HATE the 1st!


anyways so does anyone know the page where kabuto says that he was a better med ninja than tsunade?

jdw
April 01, 2010, 08:39 AM
only up side to April is 4 20

i HATE the 1st!


anyways so does anyone know the page where kabuto says that he was a better med ninja than tsunade?

I don't remember that, the closest thing I recall is where Tsunade said Kabuto's senses and strength may exceed her own, even in her prime (http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/164/13/).

benelori
April 01, 2010, 09:18 AM
I don't remember that, the closest thing I recall is where Tsunade said Kabuto's senses and strength may exceed her own, even in her prime (http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/164/13/).

Yep...that is the only moment...in the rest of the moments where Kabuto talks about Tsunade, he does it in a respectful manner and praises her

Delbi
April 01, 2010, 03:47 PM
I dunno, I am not really expecting much from her battle-wise. I think that she doesn't really have much left to do. She can train Sakura some more, tell Naruto about his heritage and related stuff, and it would be awesome if she taught him how to store his chakra in a seal like she uses for her Souzou Saisei technique.

If he could learn to use it to store Natural energy he'd slove his problem of a time limit. The Seal could constantly give him Natural Energy and thus he'd always be in Sage Mode.

hakuthehedgehog
April 01, 2010, 04:56 PM
If he could learn to use it to store Natural energy he'd slove his problem of a time limit. The Seal could constantly give him Natural Energy and thus he'd always be in Sage Mode.

Not constantly, but it whould give him sage mode for long periods of time whithout needing "reloads".
It whould be interesting to see the form of the seal though, maybe a Konoha simbol or maybe a sharingan for teh lulz.

hakuthehedgehog
April 01, 2010, 05:07 PM
That technique is one of the things I tend to fixate on. It would be a huge plus for Naruto, but how about for the only guy in the manga that actually died from running out of chakra, Kakashi. Also Shikamaru who also seems to run short on chakra pretty fast....unless he's avenging his master.

Unless there is a reason that they can't learn it, it would be a good idea for most of them to learn to seal away chakra, especially with the guys they are facing that will be stealing their available chakra with little or no effort.

I can think of a reason they can't learn it: it is probably an S-rank technique, developed by Tsunade.
Also, the technique constantly drains any spare chakra from the user, which could be bad for guys with stamina problems.

jdw
April 01, 2010, 05:11 PM
I can think of a reason they can't learn it: it is probably an S-rank technique, developed by Tsunade.
Also, the technique constantly drains any spare chakra from the user, which could be bad for guys with stamina problems.

The problem would be minimal because they would always have the chakra present to be used anyway. There is no chakra lost afaik. The upside is that given some opportunity to store it, the user would have access to much more chakra than he or she would ever have ordinarily.

Gats
April 01, 2010, 05:26 PM
The problem would be minimal because they would always have the chakra present to be used anyway. There is no chakra lost afaik. The upside is that given some opportunity to store it, the user would have access to much more chakra than he or she would ever have ordinarily.

I suspect Kakashi's sharingan draining slowly his chakra overtime even if he put the forehead on it, because the sharingan is still activated after all. So this + Tsunade's jutsu would maybe be too much for him anyway.

Delbi
April 01, 2010, 05:27 PM
I can think of a reason they can't learn it: it is probably an S-rank technique, developed by Tsunade.
Also, the technique constantly drains any spare chakra from the user, which could be bad for guys with stamina problems.

I doubt there is an S-Rank technique Kakashi can't learn out there if he has the proper intel and time.

Firstly, he has the Sharigan which makes everything easier.
He's probably one of the best ever at using ninjutsu.
He is capable of using Fuuinjutsu which is what Tsuande's seal is.
And to top it off, he's Kakashi, the genius son of the White Fang.

I wouldn't be surprised if Tsuande taught him how to use it, and then he helped Naruto adapt it for Sage Chakra. It doesn't constantly drain chakra to my knowledge, I just thought chakra was stored for use at a later date.

hakuthehedgehog
April 01, 2010, 05:28 PM
The problem would be minimal because they would always have the chakra present to be used anyway. There is no chakra lost afaik. The upside is that given some opportunity to store it, the user would have access to much more chakra than he or she would ever have ordinarily.

That is one of the problems I listed, Shikamaru and Kakashi might not be skilled enough to learn the jutsu.