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hakuthehedgehog
April 01, 2010, 05:35 PM
I doubt there is an S-Rank technique Kakashi can't learn out there if he has the proper intel and time.

Firstly, he has the Sharigan which makes everything easier.
He's probably one of the best ever at using ninjutsu.
He is capable of using Fuuinjutsu which is what Tsuande's seal is.
And to top it off, he's Kakashi, the genius son of the White Fang.

I wouldn't be surprised if Tsuande taught him how to use it, and then he helped Naruto adapt it for Sage Chakra. It doesn't constantly drain chakra to my knowledge, I just thought chakra was stored for use at a later date.

IIRC, Kakashi said that the limit of sharingan copying was A-rank technique.
The seal takes every bit of spare chakra the user has and stores, at least that's how Tsunade said it worked.
Also, doesn't releasing the seal make the user tired some time after?

Delbi
April 01, 2010, 05:37 PM
IIRC, Kakashi said that the limit of sharingan copying was A-rank technique.
The seal takes every bit of spare chakra the user has and stores, at least that's how Tsunade said it worked.
Also, doesn't releasing the seal make the user tired some time after?

Could your provide links for what your saying? Because I don't recall any of that.

In any event, the Sharigan can do more than copy a technique, it can see how it works, how the chakra moves, etc. All of which can help Kakashi use it.

IMO, Tsuande certainly has better chakra control than Kakashi, but he's the guy that mastered another clan's kekkai genkai, and sure as shit is better at all things jutsu aside from medical jutsu than Tsuande I would think. He's Konoha's #1 jutsu specialist afterall.

hakuthehedgehog
April 01, 2010, 05:45 PM
Could your provide links for what your saying? Because I don't recall any of that.

In any event, the Sharigan can do more than copy a technique, it can see how it works, how the chakra moves, etc. All of which can help Kakashi use it.

IMO, Tsuande certainly has better chakra control than Kakashi, but he's the guy that mastered another clan's kekkai genkai, and sure as shit is better at all things jutsu aside from medical jutsu than Tsuande I would think. He's Konoha's #1 jutsu specialist afterall.

Sharingan limit: http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/321/10/
About the spare chakra thing, it is what Tsunade said, and when the fight against Oro ended, the seal formed immediatly afterwards, even when she was tired: http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/171/07/

Weapon_X
April 01, 2010, 05:48 PM
Could your provide links for what your saying? Because I don't recall any of that.

In any event, the Sharigan can do more than copy a technique, it can see how it works, how the chakra moves, etc. All of which can help Kakashi use it.

IMO, Tsuande certainly has better chakra control than Kakashi, but he's the guy that mastered another clan's kekkai genkai, and sure as shit is better at all things jutsu aside from medical jutsu than Tsuande I would think. He's Konoha's #1 jutsu specialist afterall.

Jutsu specialist as in Kakashi is #1 at "creating" Jutsus or using Jutsus? Because if it's "creating" a Jutsu, then there are quiet a few people who are better then him.

Delbi
April 01, 2010, 06:23 PM
Jutsu specialist as in Kakashi is #1 at "creating" Jutsus or using Jutsus? Because if it's "creating" a Jutsu, then there are quiet a few people who are better then him.

That's debatable, he hasn't really had the need to create any new jutsu beyond Rakiri and whatever other ninjutsu are his. Not to mention he is still very young by ninja standards. He knows Rasengan, Kamui, whatever seal he used on Sasuke, etc etc. He is certainly the number 1 at using them and understanding them, and as far as creating them goes, Naruto wouldn't have his trump card without Kakashi's help.
[hr]

Sharingan limit: http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/321/10/
About the spare chakra thing, it is what Tsunade said, and when the fight against Oro ended, the seal formed immediatly afterwards, even when she was tired: http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/171/07/

Kakashi is only talking about Spatial Compostion though, not jutsu as a whole. If he saw someone perform an S-Rank jutsu with handseals, I see no reason why he couldn't copy it. He just can't copy something like FRS that requries none.

As for Tsuande, her seal is just reforming after she used all it's chakra, I don't see it absorbing all of her chakra.

hakuthehedgehog
April 01, 2010, 06:33 PM
Kakashi is only talking about Spatial Compostion though, not jutsu as a whole. If he saw someone perform an S-Rank jutsu with handseals, I see no reason why he couldn't copy it. He just can't copy something like FRS that requries none.

As for Tsuande, her seal is just reforming after she used all it's chakra, I don't see it absorbing all of her chakra.

Well, since she said that every bit of spare chakra is put into the seal.
Since when she was tired, the seal reformed, it probably means that chakra was put again in the seal, even when she was tired.
I never said it absroved all her chakra, I'm saying is that it constantly drains chakra.
Well, most jutsu are about spatial and/or elemental recomposition, which can be or not aided by handseals, but even with handseal, you need to master the jutsu (see Naruto with summoning).
Maybe Kakashi can learn S-rank jutsu with handseals, but I'm going to follow what Kakashi said.

M3J
April 01, 2010, 08:47 PM
Anything to do with spoilers go in its chapter discussion thread, not here.


Sharingan limit: http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/321/10/
About the spare chakra thing, it is what Tsunade said, and when the fight against Oro ended, the seal formed immediatly afterwards, even when she was tired: http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/171/07/

There is nothing of such stated that Sharingan had limit though. THe problem was adding elemental recomposition to rasengan, which Yondaime Hokage and Kakashi couldn't do because of the work it required. Sasuke was able to copy raikiri, an S-rank jutsu, with his Sharingan.
So long as a jutsu can be copied, Sharingan can do it, no matter the rank. Raikiri can be copied only if its user has elemental affinity for lightning, FRS probably holds the same, but it's nearly impossible to do so because of the complexity, affinity, and chakra required.

scandalous'
April 01, 2010, 09:24 PM
I suspect Kakashi's sharingan draining slowly his chakra overtime even if he put the forehead on it, because the sharingan is still activated after all. So this + Tsunade's jutsu would maybe be too much for him anyway.

Sharingan only drains chakra the moment the eye has to process an image. If there is nothing not process no chakra is used. Just having it on and at the same time cover it up is the same as having it off.

Xiraiya
April 01, 2010, 10:00 PM
Sharingan only drains chakra the moment the eye has to process an image. If there is nothing not process no chakra is used. Just having it on and at the same time cover it up is the same as having it off.

Yeah that's how I've always thought about it.

I guess that as an Uchiha, the effort and Chakra used when processing images are VERY minimal, to the point where having it on 24/7 has no noticeable drain.

I imagine that since it's transplanted into a non Uchiha body, the connection isn't as good and the Chakra needed is much greater.

parkalot
April 02, 2010, 03:38 AM
hi there my first post here..

anyway, ive been thinking about naruto get the seal key plus meeting with bee... if he learns how to control kyubi then he cover his weakness against genjutsu ( http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/413/15/ ) and he can summon an army of kage kyubi bunshin ( http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/329/03/ ) since it seens his clones can go kyubi too. Puting sage mode on history, It would be hard to deal with him.

hakuthehedgehog
April 02, 2010, 07:50 AM
Anything to do with spoilers go in its chapter discussion thread, not here.


There is nothing of such stated that Sharingan had limit though. THe problem was adding elemental recomposition to rasengan, which Yondaime Hokage and Kakashi couldn't do because of the work it required. Sasuke was able to copy raikiri, an S-rank jutsu, with his Sharingan.
So long as a jutsu can be copied, Sharingan can do it, no matter the rank. Raikiri can be copied only if its user has elemental affinity for lightning, FRS probably holds the same, but it's nearly impossible to do so because of the complexity, affinity, and chakra required.

Sasuke wasn't able to copy raikiri, he copied chidori, which is an A-rank jutsu.
Kakashi says that A-rank is the level which he could somehow manage to copy.

M3J
April 02, 2010, 12:17 PM
Sasuke wasn't able to copy raikiri, he copied chidori, which is an A-rank jutsu.
Kakashi says that A-rank is the level which he could somehow manage to copy.

I think it's because of different style of chidori and raikiri. Raikiri is more concentrated in the palm than chidori, Kakashi probably worked hard to increase the potency. Sasuke, I don't think minds as long as it works. He basically did copy raikiri though, since they're basically the same with different power. Chidori is the root of raikiri.
I think the rank ability to copy depends on the skill on the ninja and whether it is possible to do it or not. Kakashi can't copy Mokuton because it requires kekkei genkai to do so, combining earth and water. He can copy earth and water, provided he has affinity for it and knows how, despite the rank, as long as it's not impossible or near it.

hakuthehedgehog
April 02, 2010, 12:55 PM
Sasuke didn't copy Raikiri: he understood the mechanics of the jutsu, trained for it, and came up with a weaker version: chidori, because he probably doesn't have the same skill as kakashi into incresing the concentration of the jutsu.
The same thing works for any jutsu the sharingan might copy: the user might understand it, but may not be able to use it as well, since he or she lacks the raw skills to do it.

M3J
April 02, 2010, 12:58 PM
I don't think Sasuke cared about increasing the concentration of raikiri, or Kakashi anyway. Chidori's already powerful enough, and with Sasuke/Kakashi's speed, it is pretty devastating. He did focus more on increasing the range of chidori and such, so chidori isn't just an assassination jutsu for him as it is for Kakashi.
And I agree with the last line. I think that's what I was trying to say, hopefully.

Which reminds me, Kakashi raikiri'ing Kakuzu was sooo epic. Kakashi looks good even when he loses! Or when he eventually does. >_<

hakuthehedgehog
April 02, 2010, 01:01 PM
Speaking of Kakashi and Kakuzu, Kakashi should be able to use Domu (the jutsu Kakuzu used to make his skin hard), since he saw Kakuzu using it, handseals included.
That whould be a nice powerup.

M3J
April 02, 2010, 01:03 PM
Does Kakashi know how to use it though? Chakra goes up to the skin or what? That is an interesting move though, Kakashi could have used that against Pain. <_<

Anyone else also liked how Kakashi owned Sasuke even though Sasuke was weakened? :s If he was an Uchiha, Kakashi would be epic beyond epic, like Itachi. Or if he had higher chakra pool.
/me continues fanboying over Kakashi and Itachi

Ryr
April 02, 2010, 01:03 PM
I think Sasuke already performed Raikiri against Raikage and Sakura, so what's the point of copying something he already knows.

hakuthehedgehog
April 02, 2010, 01:06 PM
I think Sasuke already performed Raikiri against Raikage and Sakura, so what's the point of copying something he already knows.

I was talking about Sasuke not copying Kakashi's Raikiri back in part one.
Also, if he knew how to use Raikiri, he should've been able to outperform Naruto's rasengan.

Gats
April 02, 2010, 01:06 PM
Does Kakashi know how to use it though? Chakra goes up to the skin or what? That is an interesting move though, Kakashi could have used that against Pain. <_<

Anyone else also liked how Kakashi owned Sasuke even though Sasuke was weakened? :s If he was an Uchiha, Kakashi would be epic beyond epic, like Itachi. Or if he had higher chakra pool.
/me continues fanboying over Kakashi and Itachi

When ? :blink
He had his arms stuck by the debris of the building if you talked about the nail.

hakuthehedgehog
April 02, 2010, 01:09 PM
When ? :blink
He had his arms stuck by the debris of the building if you talked about the nail.

He could've used when he was hit by the said shockwave that put in the debris.

Gats
April 02, 2010, 01:22 PM
He could've used when he was hit by the said shockwave that put in the debris.

Remember that he was trying to hit Pain with his Raikiri. Besides using this kind of protection doesn't protect you from the repulsion itself, so even if he would not be wounded, he would be in the debris anyway, arms stuck.

Delbi
April 02, 2010, 03:23 PM
Remember that he was trying to hit Pain with his Raikiri. Besides using this kind of protection doesn't protect you from the repulsion itself, so even if he would not be wounded, he would be in the debris anyway, arms stuck.

Kakashi was next near dead when he was under that rubble. We didn't get to see half the fight that happened, so it's unlikely that Kakashi just got thrown once with Shinra Tensei and ended up like that.

Saying that, Kakashi is a damn strong ninja, he would have been able to get himself out of the rubble.

My guess is, he had multipe broken limbs and damaged organs from getting smashed into the ground and having shit fall on top of him, that's why he couldn't move and all he could use was Kamui.

KiSwordsman
April 02, 2010, 08:12 PM
I recognized the pansy sasori. Who else?

Just a question how is Sasori a "pansy"?

M3J
April 02, 2010, 08:16 PM
When ? :blink
He had his arms stuck by the debris of the building if you talked about the nail.
Before his arms were stuck. Throughout the entire fight, I meant. >_< Like before Asura stabbed, but that was a bunshin.


I think Sasuke already performed Raikiri against Raikage and Sakura, so what's the point of copying something he already knows.

Raikiri's said to cut lightning, so if Sasuke's chidori didn't pierce Raikage's armor completely, I don't think it's raikiri.

ornis
April 02, 2010, 11:09 PM
I would be hesitant to rest assured that Kakashi can reiterate Domu because he saw a hand seal. What kind of technique is it, besides its B-rank stat and current lack of being known as a Kekkei Genkai's derivative? Domu could be a Hijutsu that became Kakuzu's supplementary technique because he stole the heart of a Domu user. Per the databook: thanks to Jiongu, Kakuzu was able to use Domu. Kakuzu, via Jiongu, conveniently had the heart of another Domu user. Easy Domu usability. I think that makes the replicability of the jutsu a dubious subject.

KiSwordsman
April 03, 2010, 02:47 AM
If it is hiraishin, why would jiraiya tell naruto not to use it? Wouldn't that have made naruto a total bad ass from the beginning of shippuuden instead making it seem like he did absolutely nothing the past 3 years.

IMO naruto wasn't all that great until he got sage mode.


blame Jiraiya for that, not Naruto

ashher
April 03, 2010, 03:20 AM
blame Jiraiya for that, not Naruto

we know they trained for kyuubi....perhaps with 'that jutsu'

AlB
April 03, 2010, 07:13 AM
Kakashi was next near dead when he was under that rubble. We didn't get to see half the fight that happened, so it's unlikely that Kakashi just got thrown once with Shinra Tensei and ended up like that.

Saying that, Kakashi is a damn strong ninja, he would have been able to get himself out of the rubble.

My guess is, he had multipe broken limbs and damaged organs from getting smashed into the ground and having shit fall on top of him, that's why he couldn't move and all he could use was Kamui.

agreed, Kaka is damn strong. you can't call someone weak just because they were defeated by Pain. remember Pervy Sage? Shizune? Hinata? several hundred Konoha ninja? but the fact is that it is quite possible that a single shinra tensei/bansho tennin got Kakashi under the rubble. what if Pain was aiming at the building?

hakuthehedgehog
April 03, 2010, 08:07 AM
I would be hesitant to rest assured that Kakashi can reiterate Domu because he saw a hand seal. What kind of technique is it, besides its B-rank stat and current lack of being known as a Kekkei Genkai's derivative? Domu could be a Hijutsu that became Kakuzu's supplementary technique because he stole the heart of a Domu user. Per the databook: thanks to Jiongu, Kakuzu was able to use Domu. Kakuzu, via Jiongu, conveniently had the heart of another Domu user. Easy Domu usability. I think that makes the replicability of the jutsu a dubious subject.

Kakashi didn't just see a handseal, he saw all the jutsu, including how the chakra moves and stuff like, and memorized thanks to the sharingan.

Xiraiya
April 03, 2010, 08:29 AM
I still claim that with a Chakra capacity the size of Naruto's, hell even Sasuke's. Kakashi instantly becomes the most dangerous ninja in the manga.

This is why Kabuto is actually really frightening, he is much younger than Kakashi yet was already on Par at a Skill/intelligence level, with Oro's power stacked ontop of that, he's insanely dangerous.

Gats
April 03, 2010, 09:12 AM
I'd really like to see a Kakashi vs Kabuto, regardless who would win. It would be fun to watch.

Or a real Kakashi vs Itachi, now it's possible again. A mind battle.

Jspot
April 03, 2010, 10:32 AM
I still claim that with a Chakra capacity the size of Naruto's, hell even Sasuke's. Kakashi instantly becomes the most dangerous ninja in the manga.

This is why Kabuto is actually really frightening, he is much younger than Kakashi yet was already on Par at a Skill/intelligence level, with Oro's power stacked ontop of that, he's insanely dangerous.

This.

Also... um...your...your sig. Is that supposed to be... what I think it's supposed to be?

Xiraiya
April 03, 2010, 10:33 AM
This.

Also... um...your...your sig. Is that supposed to be... what I think it's supposed to be?

Kishi made it far too easy since all those panels were on the same page, so yeah it is haha.

Katz
April 03, 2010, 11:22 AM
^wow Ive seen your siq quite a few times in the past few days.....and never caught that until now....LOL epic in all sense of the word


I still claim that with a Chakra capacity the size of Naruto's, hell even Sasuke's. Kakashi instantly becomes the most dangerous ninja in the manga.

This is why Kabuto is actually really frightening, he is much younger than Kakashi yet was already on Par at a Skill/intelligence level, with Oro's power stacked ontop of that, he's insanely dangerous.

I quite agree with this, with the combination of his extensive list of jutsu he would be a threat to anyone, throw in his MS + Naruto's immense chakra = BMOTP

thefreak
April 03, 2010, 01:04 PM
Naruto getting power ups only in terms of chakra and strength reminds me of goku from DragonballZ Only power increases not skill and techniques. He has Some techniques Like Compared to naruto they can be listed an below.

Naruto can call in some of QB's power = Keo Kain
Naruto Leaning Rasengan = Kamehameha
Naruto going 1-2 tail = SSJ1
Naruto returns after training wid Jiraya = SSJ2
Rassen Shuriken = Spirit Bomb
Sage Mode = SSj3

Naruto going 4+ tails and out of control = Goku goes Gorrila mode

Next is Naruto learning QB control + sage mode = SSJ 4

I do not want upgrades like this. I want him to learn more and more techs Not like sasuke but by a different way. Invent a new branch of techniques.


Oh I am dreaming....

kingplaya(minato)
April 03, 2010, 02:14 PM
^wow Ive seen your siq quite a few times in the past few days.....and never caught that until now....LOL epic in all sense of the word



I quite agree with this, with the combination of his extensive list of jutsu he would be a threat to anyone, throw in his MS + Naruto's immense chakra = BMOTP

How strong would itachi have been if he had more chakra, how perfect would jiraiya have been if he was a genjustu type, who would have defeated nagato if he was not impulsive and was more intelligent.... It's just kishi's way of downplaying people's strengths in the manga cuz kakashi would really have been damn strong if not 4 the chakra stuff... So it's all fair i would think(not saying u was complaining).

Katz
April 03, 2010, 02:48 PM
How strong would itachi have been if he had more chakra, how perfect would jiraiya have been if he was a genjustu type, who would have defeated nagato if he was not impulsive and was more intelligent.... It's just kishi's way of downplaying people's strengths in the manga cuz kakashi would really have been damn strong if not 4 the chakra stuff... So it's all fair i would think(not saying u was complaining).

Nah it wasn't a complaint just an observation, and your very right, Kishi down plays characters to hell but thats just his style, keep naruto/sasuke excelling, kill off or make everyone else weak

sage mode
April 03, 2010, 02:57 PM
If Naruto separates with the Kyubi, then Sasuke or Madara could definitely control it, making the whole sealing the Kyubi in Naruto pointless.

Not if it is a Summon.A Summoning will be only controlled by the Ninja that summoned.Without the Contract between KB and the Ninja(The Seal),no one can Control the 9 Tails



How did sasuke control manda?... But that's a real weird theory u got, anyhows, i think we're getting off-topic with these and it would be better in the hangout thread...

But Manda wasn´t sealed with the Sealing Jutsu of the Fourth

Xiraiya
April 03, 2010, 10:14 PM
How strong would itachi have been if he had more chakra, how perfect would jiraiya have been if he was a genjustu type, who would have defeated nagato if he was not impulsive and was more intelligent.... It's just kishi's way of downplaying people's strengths in the manga cuz kakashi would really have been damn strong if not 4 the chakra stuff... So it's all fair i would think(not saying u was complaining).

Well no it's not quite the same, because Genjutsu was never that big of a deal for Jiraiya, plus he could use it in sage mode.

And Itachi never really had much hindering him until later when he was sick and blind.

Kakashi however, has from day one been a Ninja with a seemingly abnormally small chakra pool and this issue has been bought up time and time again.

Kakashi is far more deadly than I think some people give him credit for, with more chakra, hell he wouldn't need much more, I believe he could have just about defeated Pain on his own.

M3J
April 04, 2010, 01:00 AM
Jiraiya couldn't use genjutsu, it was the frogs that used genjutsu. Jiraiya even said his inability with genjutsu was known to Nagato.

Despite Kakashi having small chakra pool, we have seen him own constantly, and go out in a good way, which is pretty rare. Maybe it was the same for his father? It's possible Hatake are blessed with strong chakra with great mind.

Xiraiya
April 04, 2010, 01:05 AM
Jiraiya couldn't use genjutsu, it was the frogs that used genjutsu. Jiraiya even said his inability with genjutsu was known to Nagato.


Yes, I know I was merely being lazy with saying Jiraiya could use it in sage mode because that's when the frogs used it.

kingplaya(minato)
April 04, 2010, 05:32 AM
Nah it wasn't a complaint just an observation, and your very right, Kishi down plays characters to hell but thats just his style, keep naruto/sasuke excelling, kill off or make everyone else weak

Very true, very true....any1 who may compete with the main characters in strength must die or be dumbed down a notch!...
1. Jiraiya- killed off...
2. Itachi- killed off...
3. Tsunade- plain dumbed down and sh*t on!...
4. Oro- what a way to waste a character like he did to this guy!...
5. Kakashi... Dumbed down so kamui wouldn't be so damn invinsible and not reach its potential... Dude only uses it on weapons and not his opponents...cheap!
6. I don't know.... I need help here!...
[hr]

But Manda wasn´t sealed with the Sealing Jutsu of the Fourth

I was just explaining to the guy that sasuke controlled a summon that he didn't have a contract with...
[hr]

Well no it's not quite the same, because Genjutsu was never that big of a deal for Jiraiya, plus he could use it in sage mode.

And Itachi never really had much hindering him until later when he was sick and blind.

Kakashi however, has from day one been a Ninja with a seemingly abnormally small chakra pool and this issue has been bought up time and time again.

Kakashi is far more deadly than I think some people give him credit for, with more chakra, hell he wouldn't need much more, I believe he could have just about defeated Pain on his own.

I meant jiraiya would have been a perfect shinobi and more dangerous if he had genjustu cuz his taijustu and ninjustu were already outstanding...
And how would it have been if itachi could use more MS techs and had lots of chakra like sasuke... He'd have been stronger than that...
I know kakashi is very strong but his chakra stuff hinders him so it's just back to what i was saying that kishi creates handicaps 4 most of characters(ain't complaining though)

Duc :D
April 04, 2010, 09:21 AM
we all agree that the manga does not end before Naruto is Hokage right? Even with happy end or not, Naruto has to become Hokage at some point. Even Yondaime who wasn't 30 when Sandaime made him Yondaime was considered as a raeally young hokage and Naruto as a 16 year-old hokage? no way. Thats why I say there will be another timeskip and to jump directly into the war which, let's say has lasted for 6-7 years would be awesome. Team Konohamaru with Naruto-Sensei in Charge.

kingplaya(minato)
April 04, 2010, 10:40 AM
we all agree that the manga does not end before Naruto is Hokage right? Even with happy end or not, Naruto has to become Hokage at some point. Even Yondaime who wasn't 30 when Sandaime made him Yondaime was considered as a raeally young hokage and Naruto as a 16 year-old hokage? no way. Thats why I say there will be another timeskip and to jump directly into the war which, let's say has lasted for 6-7 years would be awesome. Team Konohamaru with Naruto-Sensei in Charge.

U mean ebisu-sensei?... But seriously, if there were 2 be a time-skip then it'd just be about 6 months or a year's gap i think...it'd be nice to have 1 though...

Duc :D
April 04, 2010, 10:48 AM
No I want Naruto to lead a team during the war, just some common shinobi action to get back the "this is about ninjas-feeling you know? In the beginning of naruto many things were explained but it seems to be only uber-ninja power imba technique ever since shippuuden. Just a few chapters, after that Kishi can switch back to 1vs1 battles with imbalanced Dojutsu vs. FRS.

kingplaya(minato)
April 04, 2010, 11:13 AM
No I want Naruto to lead a team during the war, just some common shinobi action to get back the "this is about ninjas-feeling you know? In the beginning of naruto many things were explained but it seems to be only uber-ninja power imba technique ever since shippuuden. Just a few chapters, after that Kishi can switch back to 1vs1 battles with imbalanced Dojutsu vs. FRS.

I'm with u there, but what's makes u think he can't lead a team even as at now... Shikamaru does that and naruto sure as hell can in 6 months i think or now even...
But i'd pay to go back to the normal ways a liltle bit.

White Silver King
April 04, 2010, 11:53 AM
I don't think Kakashi has a small amount of chakra as much as he just uses techniques that require vast amounts of chakra i.e. Chidori, MS. Granted in Part 1 his chakra amount was said to be "barely average" but he increased it greatly with the time skip.

kingplaya(minato)
April 04, 2010, 12:33 PM
I don't think Kakashi has a small amount of chakra as much as he just uses techniques that require vast amounts of chakra i.e. Chidori, MS. Granted in Part 1 his chakra amount was said to be "barely average" but he increased it greatly with the time skip.

He has increased it but it's still weak... Against pain, just a rai-bushin and rai-wolf(he did a liltle more than this but i can't remember) and his chakra was already half... That's low to me...

roggie
April 04, 2010, 01:03 PM
Did the robot pain had any powers? I started to watch his fight with naruto again and it ocurred to me. Was he just a doll with mechanic stuff?

Katz
April 04, 2010, 01:08 PM
^He was pretty much a walking tank equipped with missiles, I don't recall him ever doing any type of handseal (maybe wrong)

Delbi
April 04, 2010, 01:16 PM
He has increased it but it's still weak... Against pain, just a rai-bushin and rai-wolf(he did a liltle more than this but i can't remember) and his chakra was already half... That's low to me...

Anytype of Kage Bushin varient, which includes Rai-bushin, halves the users chakra in half. Considering the clone was destroyed as a trap, all of the chakra used for it likely never got back to Kakashi.

kingplaya(minato)
April 04, 2010, 02:53 PM
Anytype of Kage Bushin varient, which includes Rai-bushin, halves the users chakra in half. Considering the clone was destroyed as a trap, all of the chakra used for it likely never got back to Kakashi.

Did my post get deleted?... Anyhows, zabuza used mist bushins and they didn't affect his chakra too much...

thefreak
April 04, 2010, 02:57 PM
They were water bunshins and They were not a trap type but a body type.
Kakashi's bunshin was a walking raikiri.

Wiolin
April 04, 2010, 03:19 PM
Back when Pain was telling Hidan about Akatsukis goals, part of the plan included amassing a large sum of money so that they could hire/maintain a military force. Its reasonable to assume that they have already done just that in some fashion. We just haven't seen it yet.


To add to that, the 3 people currently under Madara are all capable of causing massive chaos.

Sasuke and Kisame are two of the top 5 strongest ninja left in the manga by far. The two of them walking into a ninja village could mean it's destruction.

Zetsu can make clones of anyone and there is no way of telling the difference unless you fight them. The Civil unrest between villages that can cause has no bounds.

O, and Madara has 7 Biju. Yea, Akatsuki is sitting pretty good right now, no army is really needed as long as they stay hidden and strike at the right times.


I know all that , offcourse.

About 1st reply.Only two Akatsuki members ever to mention anything about money are Kakuzu and Pain.And they are both dead.We dont know anything about Akatsuki's money , nor anyone else is doing anything in that direction.If the Pain was just a Madara's puppet then its logical to assume that money story was just a part of lie Madara prepared for Nagato.His real goal was to revive the Yuubi by colecting all the tailed beasts.Thats all he needed for his plan to work.

OK , lets assume that they really are collecting money to pay some fodder missing-nins to wage a war against all five great shinobi nations.Dont forget feudal lords will assist they hidden villages+samurai.In this case Madara will need thousands of ninjas.And I mean tens of thousands of ninjas.Tell me just one thing, WHERE do you think he ll find that many ninjas? Hidden villages exist for a reason , its a place to collect and train all the ninjas in one country.Sure there is a few missing nins in every villages , but the ratio hidden villages ninjas:missing nins is like 500:1 .. Maybe Madara can make ninjas like Emperor Ganishka was doing in Berserk ? I doubt that. Thats just first part of the problem.
If he finds 20.000 super trained , kekei genkai ninjas he ll need some serious money for all that.And I mean like AT LEAST as much 5 great hidden villages are earning.And that A LOT.The only man who actually earned some money for Akatsuki is now dead.And thats nothing compared to amount they ll need to pay an army who will wage a World War.Thats just stupid to even mention as option.
Kishi fucked up here as well.
Sure there is like 100++ sharingans in Madara's warehouse but he still needs that much bodies for all those eyes.And dont forget , even Kakashi cant use it 100% and he was about to become a Hokage.And he has only 1 eye.
If Uchihas them selfes couldnt defeat just 1 clan , how can semi-Uchihas defeat the alliance of 5 great shinobi nations?

Ok if thats out then I ll comment the 2nd post.The one saying that Madara,Kisame and Zetsu (even tho Madara told quite recently that Zetsu isnt the fighting type) can destroy the village.

Entire history of Narutoverse is showing quite the opposite.The lone ninja cant do anything.Madara , as the strongest ninjas of all times , got pwnd 2 times , by the Hashirama and Minato.Pain second most powerful tried and Naruto ended that attack.Why on earth would you assume that Kisame, Zetsu and Madara could do something now? If thats true they wouldnt even bother to collect tailed beasts in the way they were doing it so far , they would just walk in the village and destroy it , take the bijuus and revive the Yuubi.Easy.

And we have Sasuke.Lets assume , and I dont think it will be far from that , that Sasuke will surpass Madara and that he will be capable of destroying entire village by himself.
I ll say just one word : Naruto. He wont allow that.


So we have just a tailed beasts left.Madara CAN use them to wreak havoc on the battlefield.But you must admit that doesnt sound so epic ,doesnt sound like a Great Ninja World War .. its more like Madara's attack on Konoha, with just a little bit more fire power...World War means a lot of ninjas from different countries will battle in all parts of the globe.

If I dont know Kishi I would be interested in his ideas about this War .. but sadly I do know him .. and I know he will prolly fucked up that part as well.Story wise ofc , I dont question his drawning skills.

Weapon_X
April 04, 2010, 03:21 PM
Did my post get deleted?... Anyhows, zabuza used mist bushins and they didn't affect his chakra too much...

Yeah but this lightning Bunshin is special, it indeed did use half of Kakashi's chakra. http://read.mangashare.com/Naruto/chapter-423/page001.html 5th panel.

Chouza: You got enough chakra to fight?
Kakashi: I've used about half of it, thanks to that lightning clone...

hakuthehedgehog
April 04, 2010, 03:24 PM
Yeah but this lightning Bunshin is special, it indeed did use half of Kakashi's chakra. http://read.mangashare.com/Naruto/chapter-423/page001.html 5th panel.

Chouza: You got enough chakra to fight?
Kakashi: I've used about half of it, thanks to that lightning clone...

Kakashi also used other technques such as normal Raikiri, lighting wolf and that Doton wall.
Also, don't forget that most of the fight hapened off pannel, so he probably used more jutsu besides those 4.
So, lighting clone, plus all the other jutus, it what took him half of his chakra.
Maybe the clone is what took most of the chakra, but it didn't put it to half.

Weapon_X
April 04, 2010, 03:26 PM
Kakashi also used other technques such as normal Raikiri, lighting wolf and that Doton wall.
Also, don't forget that most of the fight hapened off pannel, so he probably used more jutsu besides those 4.
So, lighting clone, plus all the other jutus, it what took him half of his chakra.
Maybe the clone is what took most of the chakra, but it didn't put it to half.

Erm, yes it did put it to half. I just provided a clear panel for you with a clear dialogue. -_-; Don't need to argue against me, argue against Kakashi lol

hakuthehedgehog
April 04, 2010, 03:35 PM
It put him at half of his chakra, it didn't use half of his chakra, as you had said.

Delbi
April 04, 2010, 03:54 PM
How do you know that the Raiton bunshin is a kage bunshin variant? Or that it used half of Kakashi's chakra?

Kakashi basically tells us. And thus far, the only whole body bushin that doesn't use half the user chakra is the Mizu Bushin.
[hr]

It put him at half of his chakra, it didn't use half of his chakra, as you had said.

If I'm not mistaken, all Kakashi did at that point was use a Raikiri and Doton Wall. Two techniques that don't take a whole lot of chakra from him.

Saying that, he said he had about half of his chakra left, meaning he could of had less than half. If the Rai-bushin follows the same path as the Kage Bushin, which it seems to IMO, then it would use up half his chakra.

David Gill
April 04, 2010, 04:08 PM
If I'm not mistaken, all Kakashi did at that point was use a Raikiri and Doton Wall. Two techniques that don't take a whole lot of chakra from him.

Saying that, he said he had about half of his chakra left, meaning he could of had less than half. If the Rai-bushin follows the same path as the Kage Bushin, which it seems to IMO, then it would use up half his chakra.

Are you kakashi in disguise?

It's pretty obvious that the rai-bunshin was only a single jutsu out of many which put kakashi at 1/2 of his chakra.

White Silver King
April 04, 2010, 05:25 PM
I have a question. How was Hashirama so powerful? I get he could control the Bijuu but in his fight with Madara who had not only EMS but the full powered Nine Tailed Fox under his command and Hashirama won without using the Bijuu. How can you defeat a person who can use an unstoppable fire technique among many other extremely powerful jutsu with just plants? I don't get it.

Destined_One
April 04, 2010, 05:29 PM
I have a question. How was Hashirama so powerful? I get he could control the Bijuu but in his fight with Madara who had not only EMS but the full powered Nine Tailed Fox under his command and Hashirama won without using the Bijuu. How can you defeat a person who can use an unstoppable fire technique among many other extremely powerful jutsu with just plants? I don't get it.

You are assuming he never used Bijuu. However there was mention that at one point he had multiple bijuu under his influence. Also he has the ability to tame the Kyuubi as if it were his pet. Doesn't that make the Kyuubi kinda void. Maybe his super wood can block everything who knows lol. Hes got the 'sages body' after all.

jdw
April 04, 2010, 05:29 PM
I have a question. How was Hashirama so powerful? I get he could control the Bijuu but in his fight with Madara who had not only EMS but the full powered Nine Tailed Fox under his command and Hashirama won without using the Bijuu. How can you defeat a person who can use an unstoppable fire technique among many other extremely powerful jutsu with just plants? I don't get it.

We don't know that it was "just plants." Even here (http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/399/10-11/) we see Shodai using what appears to be some kind of sealing scroll or whatever. Most of that fight is a mystery.

@Destined_One: lol "super wood."

3c
April 04, 2010, 05:40 PM
To be honest Hashirama as we know him doesn't impress me that much, not as much as prime Madara anyway. Mokuton + Default Bijuu control is great, but that alone doesn't give me enough to say out openly that he owned Madara even if he actually won. How on earth he pulled it off I have no clue. Let's assume Kyuubi was just being thrown back and forth between controllers, and that the actual real fight was between the fighters alone. Then it's basically a super beast Hashirama with wood VS Super genius EMS Madara with loads of techniques. Hashirama must have truly been a beast among beasts, because as of now I'm not sure even Kishi knows how to write that battle in a way that makes sense, hence why he'll never do it. I sure would never write it atleast.

White Silver King
April 04, 2010, 05:43 PM
Well I just read the wiki and it gave me an idea. Yamamoto has said that Wood Release allows you to change the very cells of a being/object into wood, so maybe he turned parts of Madara into wood? It would explain why he's all covered up.

Gats
April 04, 2010, 05:50 PM
To be honest Hashirama as we know him doesn't impress me that much, not as much as prime Madara anyway. Mokuton + Default Bijuu control is great, but that alone doesn't give me enough to say out openly that he owned Madara even if he actually won. How on earth he pulled it off I have no clue. Let's assume Kyuubi was just being thrown back and forth between controllers, and that the actual real fight was between the fighters alone. Then it's basically a super beast Hashirama with wood VS Super genius EMS Madara with loads of techniques. Hashirama must have truly been a beast among beasts, because as of now I'm not sure even Kishi knows how to write that battle in a way that makes sense, hence why he'll never do it. I sure would never write it atleast.

Actually it partially depends of Madara's Susano'o shape. It's not a Susano'o with the ultimate sword and ultimate shield like Itachi, probably not the same weapon as Sasuke (remember that Madara noticed the shape of Sasukes Susano'o). So maybe it was a bit easier for Shodaime.

Even if it had the same weapon as Sasuke (bow), we know with Danzou that Mokuton can protect against the arrows (which were damn fast) and certainly against Susano'o melee strikes too. So at least, Shodaime really had the tools to protect himself against the MS ultimate jutsu.

So it's possible that Shodaime was only protecting himself as much as he can while Madara was trying so hard to kill him with Susano'o, but then, in the end, he reached his life force limit and then Susano'o disappeared, consequence : Shodaime counterstrike against Madara without his ultimate protection.

BBB Banana
April 04, 2010, 05:50 PM
The senju were known for being a clan of many techniques I believe that Hashirama just like the 3rd knew most of the techniques in konoha but of course not as many as the later. We know that he at least knew Mokuton, suiton and doton plus was good at genjutsu.

Seems by the picture that he was good at sealings or maybe a weapon specialist. I think that overall he was a well balance ninja.

kingplaya(minato)
April 04, 2010, 06:46 PM
Then is he like the second strongest hokage?... I really don't want minato to drop 4rm number 1 in my books to number 3...at all.

White Silver King
April 04, 2010, 07:20 PM
IMO Hashirama was the most powerful. Sarutobi, even in his prime, would not have been able to defeat Madara in his prime for the simple fact he can't defeat the Nine Tails and with EMSed Madara on top of that he would have sure got pwned. Sarutobi was probably third in strength because Minato could defeat the Nine Tails (well he died to0) and Sarutobi couldn't and that was 15 years prior to his fight with Oro so he had quite a bit more stamina.

BBB Banana
April 04, 2010, 07:57 PM
The databook says Sarutobi is the strongest hokage. He probably couldn't beat Madara while Hashirama could but that's all about bad or good match ups.

Not sure if Minatos is 2nd at least for me he is in 3rd of my list simply because he never reached his peak.

I say Sarutobi at his prime would beat him because of what the Databook says. But I'm not sure Hashirama without the bijuu would win though those are part of his abilities and in war everything is fair.

White Silver King
April 04, 2010, 08:09 PM
I say Sarutobi at his prime would beat him because of what the Databook says. But I'm not sure Hashirama without the bijuu would win though those are part of his abilities and in war everything is fair.

But there's also the fact he beat Madara without the Bijuu because he had already distributed them to the other countries and we can probably render the Kyubi a moot (mute?) point because control of him switched probably switched between Madara and Hashirama countless times during the battle.

dragon2021
April 04, 2010, 08:49 PM
To be honest Hashirama as we know him doesn't impress me that much, not as much as prime Madara anyway. Mokuton + Default Bijuu control is great, but that alone doesn't give me enough to say out openly that he owned Madara even if he actually won. How on earth he pulled it off I have no clue. Let's assume Kyuubi was just being thrown back and forth between controllers, and that the actual real fight was between the fighters alone. Then it's basically a super beast Hashirama with wood VS Super genius EMS Madara with loads of techniques. Hashirama must have truly been a beast among beasts, because as of now I'm not sure even Kishi knows how to write that battle in a way that makes sense, hence why he'll never do it. I sure would never write it atleast.

This is why I do not understad why anyone would say Naruto geting any S ranked jitsu at this point is too haxed. I mean Sasuake just got two power ups and a third with EMS. Madara is talking about geting ringdigan along with his MS sharingan and has seven of the nine tailed beasts he is going to use. I would say with theses developments their is nothing that he could give Naruto that would be to haxed. :o

Destined_One
April 04, 2010, 10:02 PM
IMO Hashirama was the most powerful. Sarutobi, even in his prime, would not have been able to defeat Madara in his prime for the simple fact he can't defeat the Nine Tails and with EMSed Madara on top of that he would have sure got pwned. Sarutobi was probably third in strength because Minato could defeat the Nine Tails (well he died to0) and Sarutobi couldn't and that was 15 years prior to his fight with Oro so he had quite a bit more stamina.

For that bold part, I'm quite interested to know how you are able to make that argument, considering you have never witnessed the 'God of Shinobi' in his prime. At a very young age, he suggested he was stronger than Tobirama. Oro claimed that if it was 10 years earlier he stood no chance (which is older than Jiraiya was before he died). Hell Oro had Hashirama & Tobirama immortals and yet still lost his arms & was forced to retreat. He had a counter for everything Oro threw at him. The only obstacle he couldn't overcome was his age. Also just because Hashirama defeated Madara, doesn't mean he can do the same to Hiruzen. Different jutsu, different weaknesses.

White Silver King
April 04, 2010, 10:27 PM
Sarutobi, even in his prime, would not have been able to defeat Madara in his prime for the simple fact he can't defeat the Nine Tails and with EMSed Madara on top of that he would have sure got pwned

Okay, I was off a little but I still stand true to my statement. Hiruzen was 68 when he died so 15 years prior to that (when Kyubi attacked) puts him at 53 slightly older than Jiraiya when he died. I find it really hard to believe that at 53 he couldn't even make a dent into the Kyubi with his entire village fighting with him but at 30-something he could defeat him on his own along with one of the most powerful characters in the series with one of the most broken jutsu in the fiction universe. 53 really isn't that old. I guess we agree to disagree?

Destined_One
April 04, 2010, 10:46 PM
Okay, I was off a little but I still stand true to my statement. Hiruzen was 68 when he died so 15 years prior to that (when Kyubi attacked) puts him at 53 slightly older than Jiraiya when he died. I find it really hard to believe that at 53 he couldn't even make a dent into the Kyubi with his entire village fighting with him but at 30-something he could defeat him on his own along with one of the most powerful characters in the series with one of the most broken jutsu in the fiction universe. 53 really isn't that old. I guess we agree to disagree?

I understand that. But that just proves Hashirama had the tools to defeat Madara. If Mokuton made the presence of the Kyuubi null, then Hashirama simply defeated an EMS Madara. I'm not sure whether Hiruzen could have done the same, or whether he even attempted anything 16 years ago, especially seeing as Minato was the only one who knew of the masked man. My point, when comparing strengths of the two (Hiruzen & Hashirama) is that Hashirama's advantages over Madara (Bijuu control) would hold little bearing on a match up with Hiruzen (Who has no Bijuu) unless Hashirama has pokeballs containing said Bijuu (Ninetails:p). But with that said, this argument is too subjective to confirm either opinions. So yes, agreeing to disagree.

M3J
April 04, 2010, 11:58 PM
I think Mokuton is, or was, the key to defeating Madara. If Shodaime's ability with Mokuton was better than Yamato, we can assume he was fast with Mokuton, being able to summon it to hit Madara if he had his space/time ninjutsu back then, as well as being able to block Amaterasu, Susano'o, and even hit Madara inside Susano'o. And if Yamato's any indication, Shodaime could also turn parts of his body into wood. Shodaime's water affinity even works against Uchiha's fire affinity.
If Hashirama also had speed behind power and strength, he'd be a real killer to contend with.

jdw
April 05, 2010, 12:05 AM
Something tells me that "that jutsu" is related to Hiraishin. Clearly Yondaime was unable to use Hiraishin to deliver a finishing blow to Madara, but I think that Naruto's jutsu will manipulate space/time in a better way so that Naruto can eliminate Madara's Space/Time advantage and phasing abilities.

Smokes
April 05, 2010, 12:16 AM
Something tells me that "that jutsu" is related to Hiraishin. Clearly Yondaime was unable to use Hiraishin to deliver a finishing blow to Madara, but I think that Naruto's jutsu will manipulate space/time in a better way so that Naruto can eliminate Madara's Space/Time advantage and phasing abilities.

This is what I'm hoping for. Something epic that doesn't require him to become a monster.

LOL...every time anything is suggested though, someone always says that it's either not Naruto's style or he's too stupid to lean it. Like "that Jutsu" is maybe a pointy stick and some of that joke itchy powder.

Just please Kishi, just let the guy end the manga with some cool new jutsu.

Djogmen
April 05, 2010, 01:07 AM
Naruto is like Einstein,jenius...
And dropout when child :D

Gats
April 05, 2010, 07:49 AM
I remember that there was a post in this thread with a fanart about Minato fighting the hidden rock ninjas (1vs50), which came from deviantart, but I don't remember the author and I can't find the original picture in deviantart. If you remember and know where is it, can you give me the link ? Thanks.

jdw
April 05, 2010, 10:52 AM
I remember that there was a post in this thread with a fanart about Minato fighting the hidden rock ninjas (1vs50), which came from deviantart, but I don't remember the author and I can't find the original picture in deviantart. If you remember and know where is it, can you give me the link ? Thanks.

Is it this one?

http://img411.imageshack.us/img411/3232/hiraishinbykunoichisan.jpg
Deviant Art Posted by Kunoichi-San (http://kunoichi-san.deviantart.com/art/Hiraishin-65862859).

kingplaya(minato)
April 05, 2010, 11:46 AM
Is it this one?

http://img411.imageshack.us/img411/3232/hiraishinbykunoichisan.jpg
Deviant Art Posted by Kunoichi-San (http://kunoichi-san.deviantart.com/art/Hiraishin-65862859).

Mahn is this awesome!... Seeing this just makes me crave a minato gaiden more and more!!...
Come on kishi, give us what we want!!!!!

3c
April 05, 2010, 12:12 PM
I think there's a big possibility for Minato Gaiden or a short spin-off at some point. Kishimoto himself said once that he's interested in making a manga where Minato is the main character, and he obviously loves the guy. I sure wouldn't complain if we got a Minato Gaiden or a short spin-off with Minato as the MC.

White Silver King
April 05, 2010, 01:05 PM
I think there's a big possibility for Minato Gaiden or a short spin-off at some point. Kishimoto himself said once that he's interested in making a manga where Minato is the main character, and he obviously loves the guy. I sure wouldn't complain if we got a Minato Gaiden or a short spin-off with Minato as the MC.

Or maybe....A WHOLE NEW MANGA!!!! One without annoying Uchihas and NO NARUTO!!! I can see it, he could start it from when he was a little kid under Jiraiya to when he died. He'll need something because Naruto is obviously coming to an end within the next 2-3 years. And think we'd get to see Jiraiya, Tsunade, and (maybe) Oro in their primes and there's also the possibility of seeing Hiruzen fighting in his forties which is pretty close to his prime!

ceasar
April 05, 2010, 01:32 PM
Or maybe....A WHOLE NEW MANGA!!!! One without annoying Uchihas and NO NARUTO!!! I can see it, he could start it from when he was a little kid under Jiraiya to when he died. He'll need something because Naruto is obviously coming to an end within the next 2-3 years. And think we'd get to see Jiraiya, Tsunade, and (maybe) Oro in their primes and there's also the possibility of seeing Hiruzen fighting in his forties which is pretty close to his prime!

Minato is something that needs to be explored him and his wife and the whole greatest ninja thing I got to see. Hope we see him as a kid through his hokageship and death. Maybe we will see a lot of naruto in him or some type of similarity besides their appearance.

Gats
April 05, 2010, 04:05 PM
Is it this one?

http://img411.imageshack.us/img411/3232/hiraishinbykunoichisan.jpg
Deviant Art Posted by Kunoichi-San (http://kunoichi-san.deviantart.com/art/Hiraishin-65862859).

Exactly, thanks !

I don't know if young Minato would be this interesting. I mean, he died young yet, so it means super young Minato. From Tsunade and Jiraya he doesn't have the same kind of personality as Naruto, if he is just the cool guy, kind and all, it can be boring to some extent and I doubt he would already meet Kushina (they don't come from the same village)...but we would see Jiraya again...and mayne a kickass Sandaime. :amuse


edit : lol I just notice he decapited one of the ninjas. :D

kingplaya(minato)
April 05, 2010, 04:38 PM
Exactly, thanks !

I don't know if young Minato would be this interesting. I mean, he died young yet, so it means super young Minato. From Tsunade and Jiraya he doesn't have the same kind of personality as Naruto, if he is just the cool guy, kind and all, it can be boring to some extent and I doubt he would already meet Kushina (they don't come from the same village)...but we would see Jiraya again...and mayne a kickass Sandaime. :amuse




When jiraiya at a young age to spice things up is there?... And a young minato would still be an interesting character as he isn't all that ice cold so we could still get some humour and cool stuff mixed together...
On another note, i'm not too sure a whole new manga of him would fly as that'd just be milking naruto(the manga)... Maybe just a spin-off but a kinda long one that would show his teenage years right through to hokage years...

Gats
April 05, 2010, 04:42 PM
]When jiraiya at a young age to spice things up is there?[/B]... And a young minato would still be an interesting character as he isn't all that ice cold so we could still get some humour and cool stuff mixed together...
On another note, i'm not too sure a whole new manga of him would fly as that'd just be milking naruto(the manga)... Maybe just a spin-off but a kinda long one that would show his teenage years right through to hokage years...

Jiraya was Minato's master. So if we have to see a young Minato, Jiraya will be there too.

M3J
April 05, 2010, 04:49 PM
Exactly, thanks !

I don't know if young Minato would be this interesting. I mean, he died young yet, so it means super young Minato. From Tsunade and Jiraya he doesn't have the same kind of personality as Naruto, if he is just the cool guy, kind and all, it can be boring to some extent and I doubt he would already meet Kushina (they don't come from the same village)...but we would see Jiraya again...and mayne a kickass Sandaime. :amuse


edit : lol I just notice he decapited one of the ninjas. :D

We see Minato having some humor when he was talking with Naruto. He even joked about Kyuubi not being able to shut up. And judging from the fact that he smiled in portrait with Team Jiraiya and Team Minato, he can be seen as congenial. He even laughed a bit embarrassed or something listening to Obito and Kakashi argue. I think Minato does have sense of humor and is overall a positive guy, but not talkative or brash like Naruto is.
Which makes me wanna read Minato Gaiden even more. T_T Jiraiya and Itachi Gaiden would be awesome, as well as more Kakashi Gaiden. You can never have too many Kakashi! \o/

kingplaya(minato)
April 05, 2010, 06:57 PM
Jiraya was Minato's master. So if we have to see a young Minato, Jiraya will be there too.

Umm... I knew that, did i give the impression of the opposite?... If so then i'm a worse writer than i give myself credit 4.
[hr]

We see Minato having some humor when he was talking with Naruto. He even joked about Kyuubi not being able to shut up. And judging from the fact that he smiled in portrait with Team Jiraiya and Team Minato, he can be seen as congenial. He even laughed a bit embarrassed or something listening to Obito and Kakashi argue. I think Minato does have sense of humor and is overall a positive guy, but not talkative or brash like Naruto is.
Which makes me wanna read Minato Gaiden even more. T_T Jiraiya and Itachi Gaiden would be awesome, as well as more Kakashi Gaiden. You can never have too many Kakashi! \o/

U can have too much of kakashi but never enough of jiraiya!!!lol.
But yeah, minato isn't a sasuke so he's gonna be a genius....but still fun.

M3J
April 05, 2010, 11:22 PM
Sasuke was fun back in Part I. His facial reaction was anyway, at the least. T_T

AlB
April 05, 2010, 11:25 PM
Sasuke was fun back in Part I. His facial reaction was anyway, at the least. T_T

this one is fun too :p
http://mangastream.com/read/naruto/480-41/15

M3J
April 05, 2010, 11:42 PM
That was hilarious, Sasuke reminded me of a jester. Odd eyes or something.

kingplaya(minato)
April 06, 2010, 08:36 AM
this one is fun too :p
http://mangastream.com/read/naruto/480-41/15

Haha!... I've gotta say u got a twisted meaning of what is 'fun'.lol... Nice 1!.
[hr]

Sasuke was fun back in Part I. His facial reaction was anyway, at the least. T_T

Yeah, but that was as a supporting main character, but i'm not sure he'd fly as the main one with his cool and 'genius' character... But minato is fun and 'genius'...
Who am i kidding, i'm just fanboying!...u'd do the same if it was kakashi.

benelori
April 06, 2010, 09:36 AM
Haha!... I've gotta say u got a twisted meaning of what is 'fun'.lol... Nice 1!.


That robot face is funny as hell!:D...so I think my definition of funny is the same in this case...and there are others as well...the stabbing of karin...I mean where's the neck, and what's with the wide eyes...I can understand Kishi meant that he is empty, but still, he's like a retard

thefreak
April 06, 2010, 10:26 AM
Question:
If First hokage handled all the Biju's as pets and was powerful enough to counter Madara at his prime. why Sandaime was called the strongest hokage ever?

SenninSage
April 06, 2010, 10:33 AM
Question:
If First hokage handled all the Biju's as pets and was powerful enough to counter Madara at his prime. why Sandaime was called the strongest hokage ever?

Because, without even possessing an innate ability to control Bijuu, as was the case with the First Hokage, he had become a superior shinobi than even the First Hokage was. Based on the description of the Third Hokage in his prime, the God of all Shinobi it's evident that he would've been capable of defeating Madara as well.

The Third also wasn't remotely in his prime when he fought The First, Second and Orochimaru and still put on a show. it was mentioned over and over that the Third's old age was definitely holding him back, so if some didn't an opportnity to find out just how legendary the Third truly is, it's because he was way past his prime, and it was pointed out by Orochimaru, the onlooking Anbu and even the Third's summon.

Another thing to consider as well is the obvious fact that it seems Madara used the Kyuubi against the First in their encounter, which as we've come to know, could be controlled by the First Hokage. Who knows how much was taken out of Madara to wield around the Kyuubi like some pet, and what consequences he had to own up to once the Kyuubi was removed from the picture.

Make no mistake, the Third Hokage was not weak, he was simply way past his prime. He was one of the most amazing shinobi ever, and the Fourth managed to surpass even him, which is why Kakashi uses the Fourth as such a measuring stick -- often stating that only Naruto can surpass the Fourth Hokage.

We can't make too many rash assumptions about why the Fourth didn't defeat Madara in their encounter, because Madara probably didn't even fight straight up in the first place, he probably pulled the same trickery that he's been pulling against everyone right now.

I'll tell you this right now, if Madara was doing all the exact same crap against the First, Space Time Ninjutsu and all along with making himself impossible to hit, there's no friggin way the First could've defeated Madara, unless Madara willingly exposed himself to a head on fight. I don't at all believe he exposed himself to the Fourth in a true head to head fight. He has yet to really do such a thing against any shinobi.

Against the Fourth, he likely just played games and avoided all his attacks, while having the Kyuubi cause most of the havoc.

thefreak
April 06, 2010, 10:42 AM
Fourth was the Genius shinobi but I doubt about his chakra capacity. But should be large looking at naruto.

The third would be at his prime at around Second Great Shinobi war. We should know what happened after first..

SenninSage
April 06, 2010, 10:53 AM
I wouldn't doubt the Fourth's chakra capacity, he's someone that was able to not only extract the entirety of the Kyuubi's soul, but was even capable of splitting it in half, sealing one half into his son, and then placing a protective seal on his son -- one that was designed to allow his son to take advantage of the Kyuubi's chakra.

Oh, and let's also not forget that in the process of all of this, he had enough power to literally leave behind a piece of himself, his very own chakra, in his son in the event that Naruto were ever on the vurge of releasing all 9 tails. He was even capable of repairing the entire seal for the Kyuubi this quickly.

http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/440/15/

That's something else, if you ask me. I definitely wouldn't doubt his chakra levels. He even used a space-time ninjutsu to take out hundreds of shinobi. With the stuff that he was capable of, the last thing I'd ever do is doubt his chakra levels :)

He's also someone that we know summoned Gamabunta when he was facing the Kyuubi. That's no small chakra capacity :)

jdw
April 06, 2010, 10:56 AM
I wouldn't doubt the Fourth's chakra capacity, he's someone that was able to not only extract the entirety of the Kyuubi's soul, but was even capable of splitting it in half, sealing one half into his son, and then placing a protective seal on his son -- one that was designed to allow his son to take advantage of the Kyuubi's chakra.

Oh, and let's also not forget that in the process of all of this, he had enough power to literally leave behind a piece of himself, his very own chakra, in his son in the event that Naruto were ever on the vurge of releasing all 9 tails. He was even capable of repairing the entire seal for the Kyuubi this quickly.

http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/440/15/

That's something else, if you ask me. I definitely wouldn't doubt his chakra levels. He even used a space-time ninjutsu to take out hundreds of shinobi. With the stuff that he was capable of, the last thing I'd ever do is doubt his chakra levels :)

He's also someone that we know summoned Gamabunta when he was facing the Kyuubi. That's no small chakra capacity :)

Don't forget that he was likely trying to take out Madara, though he was unable to do so because Madara saw through everything he tried. I'd have to think that Madara was trying to take him out as well, if not to preserve his own life, to prevent him from taking away Kyuubi.

SenninSage
April 06, 2010, 11:39 AM
Don't forget that he was likely trying to take out Madara, though he was unable to do so because Madara saw through everything he tried. I'd have to think that Madara was trying to take him out as well, if not to preserve his own life, to prevent him from taking away Kyuubi.

Indeed, Madara was probably trying to stop him. No way he'd take what the Fourth was doing lying down.

He was probably even trying to use his Space-Time to get the edge on the Fourth, but then the Fourth, combined with his amazing base speed, reflexes as well as his own Space-Time Ninjutsu, probably did a bit of trickery on his own to avoid Madara giving himself the time to do what he needed to do.

He probably used a Kage Bunshin as well, because there's just no way I can imagine him having brought his child onto the battlefield. He probably created a Kage Bunshin before performing the Shiki Fuujin, sealed the half of the Kyuubi that he wanted to put into his son into the Kage Bunshin, then his Kage Bunshin probably used the Space-Time Ninjutsu to make his way back to Naruto and performed the sealing ritual.

Because, I mean, think about it: Can you imagine the Fourth having a baby in his arms while on the battlefield against Madara and the Kyuubi?

The Third proved to us that Kage Bunshin using Shiki Fuujin could pull in souls as well.

Xiraiya
April 06, 2010, 12:02 PM
Continuing on from SenninSage, you need to remember that the whole village was essentially being destroyed by Kyuubi, who was being controlled, making him more dangerous.

Minato had to not only Hold off the Kyuubi and keep it away from the village, he had to fight off Madara who was very likely teleporting everywhere attacking him at every opening

Not only that, Minato had to cast a very seemingly high class Jutsu uninterrupted, he needed to pull in and split the Kyuubi's unimaginable amount of chakra into specific parts while making sure his seal would infact benefit Naruto in future, and also seal apart of himself so that he could watch everything from inside Naruto, talk to him and be the final safeguard on the seal.

Meanwhile He's holding off possibly the most dangerous UCHIHA in history who is still probably teleporting everywhere and using Sharingan (Probably EMS)
And in the process of this he has to protect his newborn child from Madara and any collateral damage long enough to complete the sealing.

And since Minato died straight after I do imagine he did some serious damage to Madara, enough to scare him from the village rather than continuing to attack it after Kyuubi was sealed.

I dare Say Minato is well deserving of the Greatest Ninja title.

White Silver King
April 06, 2010, 03:39 PM
I'll tell you this right now, if Madara was doing all the exact same crap against the First, Space Time Ninjutsu and all along with making himself impossible to hit, there's no friggin way the First could've defeated Madara, unless Madara willingly exposed himself to a head on fight.

There's no way you can know that. Madara can obviously be hit or else he wouldn't show fear at the corpses Kabuto released (in the chapter IIRC and definetly in the spoilers), Kabuto wouldn't even waste his time trying to intimidate Madara if he knew it was pointless because he couldn't be hit; he's way too smart for that. Besides in an all out fight Madara has to strike the opponent if he wants to win and he can only attack someone when he materializes so going off the fact the 1st blows Yamamoto out of the water Mokuton wise (and almost definetly in every other way) he could very well be fast enough with his wood to deal a fatal blow to Madara, and then there's the possibility of him being able to turn Madara into wood because Wood Release changes the very cells of a substance (if no source of wood is available) into wood, we've seen people with Wood Release do it to themselves so it stands they might be able to do it to others. Besides we don't even know that Madara didn't have his S/T abilities when he fought Hashi.

M3J
April 06, 2010, 07:03 PM
There's no proof Madara personally fought or used space/time ninjutsu against Minato though. If he did, wouldn't Minato see the Sharingan and guess it was an Uchiha and tell Naruto?

Minato regardless is a genius, however. He created two jutsu, one that helped win the war, and another which was destructive even incomplete.

NAM61
April 06, 2010, 07:46 PM
the fan book says he fought madara and the kyuubi at the same time. so he did fight him if he used the space time jutsu who knows but minato said he was a shinobie of great power.

maloose
April 06, 2010, 08:57 PM
Is there a new update about the number of the chapters? It was assumed it would be a 500-chapter manga, well it doesn't seem so now, so is it stated somewhere how many more chapters there will be?!

M3J
April 06, 2010, 10:00 PM
the fan book says he fought madara and the kyuubi at the same time. so he did fight him if he used the space time jutsu who knows but minato said he was a shinobie of great power.

I don't trust fanbook or any book other than the manga itself, to be hoenst.
And Minato might have said that because Madara was able to control Kyuubi and/or see what he was doing and react accordingly to it. Minato probably didn't know Madara had Sharingan.

ashher
April 07, 2010, 01:55 AM
minato was a shinobi with a guaranteed draw against anyone....may be even against more than one....plz don't give the crap that he wouldn't have been able to touch madara with his hirashin since we have seen madara getting touched and loosing an arm against an aburame.

my guess is that it is too unrealistic to expect minato to seal both kyuubi and madara the same time.....i am not even sure he had enough chakra to seal the whole of kyuubi...that might be one of the reason why he chose to spilt it into yin and yan.

M3J
April 07, 2010, 02:45 AM
Madara was the one touching the Aburame though, to get him out of the way for Sasuke vs. Danzou fight. He probably knew he was gonna get infected and didn't care about losing an arm.
And I think he chose to split up the chakra to give Naruto more weapon against Madara as well as additional power itself to survive.

kingplaya(minato)
April 07, 2010, 04:15 PM
Just got a crazy idea... Kishi should have a drawing model of what kakashi really looks like under that mask, right?... Then what if it got 'leaked' and people get to see it b4 kishi's ready?... That would be awesome! and would unravel the greatest mystery the manga has...

P.S. Any1 watched how my team man.u were knocked out from the champions league?... I'm still boiling inside!

BBB Banana
April 07, 2010, 06:13 PM
He probably didn't tought about his face yet and that's why he didn't showed it yet.

He probably won't even show his face because that would ruin the coolness factor kakashi has.

Delbi
April 07, 2010, 09:58 PM
I don't think there's going to be anything all that special about Kakashi. He'll probably just be a more handsome version of his father.

nat
April 08, 2010, 12:51 AM
*time for random weekly parody strip :ninja:*

http://fc03.deviantart.net/fs71/f/2010/097/7/6/Big_boss_by_radfel.jpg
http://radfel.deviantart.com/art/Big-boss-159974493

ps: 3cmm said it was ok to post parodies in the hangout. If not, plz move to chapter thread. Sorry ^^;

kingplaya(minato)
April 08, 2010, 04:46 AM
I don't think there's going to be anything all that special about Kakashi. He'll probably just be a more handsome version of his father.

Yeah, his father didn't look too impressive...maybe cuz of old age...
But u a kakashi fan should be dying to know what's under the mask cuz i sure as hell am!... Whichever way u take it, a secret of over 460 chapters is something special!
[hr]

He probably didn't tought about his face yet and that's why he didn't showed it yet.

He probably won't even show his face because that would ruin the coolness factor kakashi has.

Ehnn!... Kishi better not play with fire and do something stupid as not to show kakashi's real face...it won't be funny!... It's something that people would want to see and i would think he should have an idea of how he wants a character he's created 4 about 460 chapters should look like...
I can see it now...
Kakashi is weak and down after leading a platoon to fight a bijuu(or someone real dangerous in the war) and then they're about to kill sakura(she's always being saved) and he comes outta nowhere to take the blast...with his mask coming off... Epicness to the dot!, and a future cliff-hanger i bet u...

BBB Banana
April 08, 2010, 09:36 AM
Just imagine if we never see his face bcause his whole is disfigured by a bijju chakra blast I would lol so hard.

M3J
April 08, 2010, 03:42 PM
I don't know how I'd feel about Kakashi's mask being removed. I'm pretty used to him with the mask, and I think that adds to his epicness and enigmatic image. Yet, I SO WANNA SEE HOW HE LOOKS LIKE!! T_T

I am more torned up than Sakura is about who she loves. :(

kingplaya(minato)
April 08, 2010, 07:09 PM
I don't know how I'd feel about Kakashi's mask being removed. I'm pretty used to him with the mask, and I think that adds to his epicness and enigmatic image. Yet, I SO WANNA SEE HOW HE LOOKS LIKE!! T_T

I am more torned up than Sakura is about who she loves. :(

That got me too... I think she loves sasuke as a 'lover/husby', but loves naruto as a 'sister'...at least that's what i hope as i'm an ardent naruhina fan!...

I got a question that's been with me 4 sometime... WHAT THE HELL WAS SASUKE PLANNING WHEN HE WAS HEADING TO KONOHA B4 KAGE SUMMIT???... Suicide maybe...

M3J
April 08, 2010, 08:01 PM
NaruHina FTW! \o/
She loves Sasuke as lover, but she's beginning to have more and more feelings for Naruto as she sees the man he truly is/truly is becoming.

Sasuke was planning to infiltrate Konoha and find Danzou and battle him. Covert.

Karma
April 08, 2010, 08:45 PM
lol i finally get what kishi planning for naruto... first naruto need to learn to control the 9 tail.. but he should do it with out turning like the fox.... So what Kishi planning is similar to how Goku had to turn Ape and to control is self before he could obtain SS4 level.. Once Naruto control the fox chakra he won't be turning fox like unless the fox become a partner to him.. which i think will happen similar to the 8 tail and it's hosts..

Naruto will be able to use all it's chakra and still in Human form with cloak around him....so whatever "that Jutsu" Naruto will be using it's going demand a lot of chakra and also a lot to protect him from the damage.. thus far he has Sage mode.. But i think the 4th Hokage didn't factor in naruto will learn how to use Sage mode..

... So i think in the End.. Because Naruto mastered Sage Chakra he'll be in a good position with handling the Nine tail beasts when he's ready to use is WILL of NEVER TO GIVE UP!..

darkprince0521
April 09, 2010, 12:44 AM
ok, what's up with the manga? nothing about naruto goes without sasuke? i wonder how anyone else isn't tired with that!!!

1. he went to train with Jiraiya to save sasuke.
2. he trained wind elemental rasengan to become strong so that he can save sasuke.
3. he accepts sai as a teammate because he looks like sasuke. (well not entirely true, but close to it).
4. he defeated kakuzu to prove that he can save sasuke.
5. he can't love because he hasn't saved sasuke yet.
6. he has to improve his sage mode because he has to save sasuke.
7. he can't become hokage because he hasn't saved sasuke yet.
8. he can't even live because he has to understand sasuke. -_-;
9. he has to train with kyuubi because he has to save sasuke.


i already get it that saving a friend is great and all, but at least there should be something else, at least to have a break from all those "sasuke" motivations.

Xiraiya
April 09, 2010, 02:24 AM
NaruHina FTW! \o/
She loves Sasuke as lover, but she's beginning to have more and more feelings for Naruto as she sees the man he truly is/truly is becoming.

Sasuke was planning to infiltrate Konoha and find Danzou and battle him. Covert.

I had been fooled by Shippuden, both Manga and Anime (mainly anime) had hinted consistently that Naruto was slowly gaining a bigger place in Sakura's "heart" and Sasuke was slowly dropping away.

I mean she hadn't really reacted "that way" about Sasuke for 200 chapters, then all of a sudden when the cloud chick asked "What is he to you?" It's like from that chapter on Kishi remembered she loved Sasuke and thought Naruto was an idiot.

It was an obvious and random change.

3c
April 09, 2010, 03:47 AM
I don't want to join in on this shipping discussion as I've realized that I'm completely biased in that area. For starters I fail to understand why people even support NaruHina to begin with. Don't explain it to me, countless have tried to so it's useless. I simply can't support the pairing as I find Hinata boring. And yes I do find her boring.

I couldn't agree more with Xiraiya. Sakura's change of heart makes absolutely no sense to me whatsoever. I was extremely dissapointed when it happened, and in all honesty it made me go from liking Sakura alot to disliking her. Now everytime she does something stupid or slightly irritating towards Naruto I get annoyed. I find that really sad as I used to really like her, and then Kishi managed to crush that in only a few chapters. At this point I could care less actually. If Naruto ends up with Hinata, fine, but atleast talk to the girl! If he ends up with Sakura I expect great efforts from Sakura to redeem herself as I'm really annoyed by her now. Although Naruto seems to care little for her past actions, so if he ends up with her (which I still believe he will) she most likely will do little except perhaps have a real confession later on. Or perhaps Naruto ends up with no one and dies a hero's death at the end like Minato did. That would actually be pretty good at this point even if I would cry rivers.

benelori
April 09, 2010, 04:01 AM
ok, what's up with the manga? nothing about naruto goes without sasuke? i wonder how anyone else isn't tired with that!!!
9. he has to train with kyuubi because he has to save sasuke.

http://mangastream.com/read/naruto/490-99/15
bottom panel, not to mention previous chapters

darkprince0521
April 09, 2010, 04:48 AM
http://mangastream.com/read/naruto/490-99/15
bottom panel, not to mention previous chapters

there was instant moments in the battle where naruto was motivated by other facts. but outside of battle when it comes to his motivation, at least 95% things revolve around sasuke, nothing else.

as for the pannel you mentioned,

he stopped running from the fact that he is a jinchurikki. that could have been excellent, if it was only that. but look at the bottom right panel. what can we see? he stopped running because he would need the power to fight sasuke. so yeah, it is yet another "sasuke" motivation.


anyway, that is my opinion on this matter. i just felt like posting my thoughts. i am tired with this. but that doesn't mean you have to feel that way. you can like this fact as much as you want, or you can ignore that as well. :)

benelori
April 09, 2010, 05:13 AM
I'm not denying the sasuke motivation, but the fact that he wants to save him...
Personally I think he might try to revert sasuke and found a mean to do that, but for now he wants to fight sasuke, not to save him...he told shikamaru the same, and I believe him

darkprince0521
April 09, 2010, 05:26 AM
I'm not denying the sasuke motivation, but the fact that he wants to save him...

we already got that. that he wants to save sauske. but it doesn't hurt to see something else in the manga. don't you think the same?


Personally I think he might try to revert sasuke and found a mean to do that, but for now he wants to fight sasuke, not to save him...he told shikamaru the same, and I believe him

if that is the case, then i have nothing against it. however, to me it feels like a similar ending. naruto will turn sasuke good with his preaching. there is no alternative way. that's what you can get from kishi when it comes to sauske.

hakuthehedgehog
April 09, 2010, 06:54 AM
I'm really afraid of Itachi's gift guys.
If it helps in defeating Sasuke, it means Naruto is weaker than him and we won't like it >.<
If it helps in converting Sasuke, that just shits on the Jesus no jutsu and Kishi won't like it >.<

makko
April 09, 2010, 07:02 AM
2 things.

Does anyone else feel like Akatsuki kinda has the advantage right now in this Ninja war. I mean it seems close or like the Villages have the advantage but right now it seems like Akatsuki has the edge. Mainly because nobody knows what they are capable of and they have all the info on the villages. Plus Kisame is finding out everything etc.

Also, does anyone else think that Naruto might surpass Hokage? I think he might transcend that role. And become the leader of the Ninja world overall. They may have even a bigger statue for his face. They might chose an even bigger mountain to put his face on... like maybe at the Valley of the End. Have his face there and maybe Sasuke and Sakura depending on how big their role is in establishing this "peace".

ashher
April 09, 2010, 07:20 AM
we already got that. that he wants to save sauske. but it doesn't hurt to see something else in the manga. don't you think the same?

it might,i feel.....i loved the layers that got added to this relationship in such an interesting way.not many shonen relationships has so many layers added to them so nicely and gradually.

after all Naruto is not about plot i feel,its rather about naruto's growth,and sasuke's as well to accentuate that.
[hr]

I'm really afraid of Itachi's gift guys.
If it helps in defeating Sasuke, it means Naruto is weaker than him and we won't like it >.<
If it helps in converting Sasuke, that just shits on the Jesus no jutsu and Kishi won't like it >.<

i would go with the no 1 op though.....and i don't think i'll actually dislike that. that will mean naruto will inherit from itachi,just like he did from jiraya...i think that would be cool.
[hr]



if that is the case, then i have nothing against it. however, to me it feels like a similar ending. naruto will turn sasuke good with his preaching. there is no alternative way. that's what you can get from kishi when it comes to sauske.

without naruto reverting sasuke....everything will be meaningless. he has to do that and i want him to do that.

benelori
April 09, 2010, 07:53 AM
if that is the case, then i have nothing against it. however, to me it feels like a similar ending. naruto will turn sasuke good with his preaching. there is no alternative way. that's what you can get from kishi when it comes to sauske.
I still think it will be a hell of a battle...and the intent to kill will be present on both sides...I think Naruto gave up on converting naruto with preaching, that's what is good about these latest developments...thigns will end with a fight, which Naruto will take seriously, since he knows words are not enough, like it was with nagato...I think...

darkprince0521
April 09, 2010, 09:13 AM
I still think it will be a hell of a battle...and the intent to kill will be present on both sides...I think Naruto gave up on converting naruto with preaching, that's what is good about these latest developments...thigns will end with a fight, which Naruto will take seriously, since he knows words are not enough, like it was with nagato...I think...

if you think it back, it was words that changed Nagato, not the fight.

anyway, may be it is just me. but i don't like where the story is heading. everything just focus on sasuke, nothing else. anyway, what i think as bad might look good to you.

benelori
April 09, 2010, 09:42 AM
Of course opinions are opinions, but I know words changed nagato, I didn't say it was the battle...that's why I think Naruto knows he can't change sasuke with words, so he will take action as promised by him

Jack Van Burace
April 09, 2010, 03:10 PM
There are always advantages from wherever point you're standing at. If you're in the center, it's hard to corner you. If you're on the edge, it's easier to circle your opponent. Having few good members or lots just change how the game is played. The Ninja Alliance is very big, but a chain is as strong as its weakest link. They're bound to have many weaknesses, many more than Akatsuki.

Akatsuki will obviously have the upper hand in seeing the Alliance's movements, as it will involve many people and will be hard to pass by unnoticed. It would also involve communication, as many people are involved, so it's way harder to keep secrets with so strong need for passing out informations.

However, Akatsuki's few numbers restricts the kind of counters the Alliance needs. They just gotta figure how to beat each member of Akatsuki. If they were trillions, this would be a harder task than it is against 5 or 6. And having so many different ninja at their disposal, they'll obviously find people with the right skill to deal with them the best.

So, each side has its advantages. Akatsuki's just getting its share.

roggie
April 09, 2010, 04:16 PM
I know there was even a joke with the hawk (Tobimaru), but doesn't something looks strange about Madara being defeated (possibly dead/destroyed) by Hashirama and then someone appear using the name Tobi? I don't know Japanese, does it writes like Tobirama?
Besides, Tobirama is declared, after more than 300 chapters from its introduction, as one of the few people to use Edo Tensei. I mean, there must be a relation between "Madara" and Tobirama, something that would put in good use for the story the second one.

themaddie
April 09, 2010, 07:37 PM
Naruto still needs to talk to Tsunade. What are people's thoughts about him learning "Infuuin: Kai" and storing Natural chakra instead? I think that would be a good way to get out of some of the drawbacks of Sage mode.

M3J
April 09, 2010, 08:22 PM
I had been fooled by Shippuden, both Manga and Anime (mainly anime) had hinted consistently that Naruto was slowly gaining a bigger place in Sakura's "heart" and Sasuke was slowly dropping away.

I mean she hadn't really reacted "that way" about Sasuke for 200 chapters, then all of a sudden when the cloud chick asked "What is he to you?" It's like from that chapter on Kishi remembered she loved Sasuke and thought Naruto was an idiot.

It was an obvious and random change.
But she sided with Naruto when Sasuke was all "USUCK NARUTO". She did say Naruto thought f him as friend and defended him. :s


I don't want to join in on this shipping discussion as I've realized that I'm completely biased in that area. For starters I fail to understand why people even support NaruHina to begin with. Don't explain it to me, countless have tried to so it's useless. I simply can't support the pairing as I find Hinata boring. And yes I do find her boring.

I couldn't agree more with Xiraiya. Sakura's change of heart makes absolutely no sense to me whatsoever. I was extremely dissapointed when it happened, and in all honesty it made me go from liking Sakura alot to disliking her. Now everytime she does something stupid or slightly irritating towards Naruto I get annoyed. I find that really sad as I used to really like her, and then Kishi managed to crush that in only a few chapters. At this point I could care less actually. If Naruto ends up with Hinata, fine, but atleast talk to the girl! If he ends up with Sakura I expect great efforts from Sakura to redeem herself as I'm really annoyed by her now. Although Naruto seems to care little for her past actions, so if he ends up with her (which I still believe he will) she most likely will do little except perhaps have a real confession later on. Or perhaps Naruto ends up with no one and dies a hero's death at the end like Minato did. That would actually be pretty good at this point even if I would cry rivers.

Hinata does seem to be boring, but she's better than Sakura. Sakura acted like a bitch towards Naruto; it took her few volumes to see who Naruto truly is. It took Hinata immediately to recognize that. Would Sakura have thought better of Naruto had he not saved her and even Sasuke?

ornis
April 09, 2010, 11:39 PM
Naruto still needs to talk to Tsunade. What are people's thoughts about him learning "Infuuin: Kai" and storing Natural chakra instead? I think that would be a good way to get out of some of the drawbacks of Sage mode.

Other members relate with you:

...it would be awesome if [Tsunade] taught [Naruto] how to store his chakra in a seal like she uses for her Souzou Saisei technique.



...it would be awesome if [Tsunade] taught [Naruto] how to store his chakra in a seal like she uses for her Souzou Saisei technique.I wonder if thats a teachable ability though (atleast to a non-medic ninja like Naruto), it says she developed it, but who knows, if he could build up sage chakra into then release it in intervals that would be boss in terms of him not having to create clones etct


If he could learn to use it to store Natural energy he'd slove his problem of a time limit. The Seal could constantly give him Natural Energy and thus he'd always be in Sage Mode.



If he could learn to use it to store Natural energy he'd slove his problem of a time limit. The Seal could constantly give him Natural Energy and thus he'd always be in Sage Mode.Not constantly, but it whould give him sage mode for long periods of time whithout needing "reloads".
It whould be interesting to see the form of the seal though, maybe a Konoha simbol or maybe a sharingan for teh lulz.



That technique is one of the things I tend to fixate on. It would be a huge plus for Naruto, but how about for the only guy in the manga that actually died from running out of chakra, Kakashi. Also Shikamaru who also seems to run short on chakra pretty fast....unless he's avenging his master.I can think of a reason they can't learn it: it is probably an S-rank technique, developed by Tsunade.
Also, the technique constantly drains any spare chakra from the user, which could be bad for guys with stamina problems.


I can think of a reason they can't learn it: it is probably an S-rank technique, developed by Tsunade.
Also, the technique constantly drains any spare chakra from the user, which could be bad for guys with stamina problems.The problem would be minimal because they would always have the chakra present to be used anyway. There is no chakra lost afaik. The upside is that given some opportunity to store it, the user would have access to much more chakra than he or she would ever have ordinarily.

There are some more thoughts others have held about Infuuin: Kai and Souzou Saisei being passed on to Naruto (with Kakashi's help), and those musings are found in this post (http://mangahelpers.com/forum/showthread.php?p=1867239#post1867239) and onward.
[hr]
I think it is an intelligent idea, that Naruto could learn Infuuin: Kai to use Souzou Saisei for the storage and release of Natural Energy. The ability could extend Naruto's Sage Mode time limit. Though, Naruto's retrieval of the chakra should happen believably. He should be still or motionless throughout his extraction of the Natural Energy, unless he can bypass the condition because he was at rest when he first collected and stored the Natural Energy. I feel that there has to be a consistent rule for Naruto to abide by in collecting and using Natural Energy. And if the rule that has Naruto statically building Natural Energy, to use it for Sage Mode, is circumvented, for lack of another word, then the way in which such happens needs to be explained, as convincingly as Kishi's fantasy story can do so.

NAM61
April 10, 2010, 12:05 AM
But she sided with Naruto when Sasuke was all "USUCK NARUTO". She did say Naruto thought f him as friend and defended him. :s



Hinata does seem to be boring, but she's better than Sakura. Sakura acted like a bitch towards Naruto; it took her few volumes to see who Naruto truly is. It took Hinata immediately to recognize that. Would Sakura have thought better of Naruto had he not saved her and even Sasuke?

i think kishi messed up with both sakura and hinata as potential parings to naruto. sakura not understanding how naruto truly felt for her until sai pointed it out that was stupid and showed she took naruto for granted. and her still loving sasuke over naruto after all he did for her and sacrificed to bring sasuke back to make everybody happy and give him a fake confession. and with hinata kishi made her irrelevant to naruto for over 435 chapter and if she loved him so much why didn't she even try and become his friend when he was alone and had no one. and then do a suicide love confession out of the blue after not spending any consequential time with naruto and then tell him her feeling while almost dieing not knowing how it would make naruto feel if she died because of him. i think kishi should just forget about parings in this manga and just focus on friendship which he is kinda good at. to me both girls are boring with no real role in the manga this far that does not involve them loving someone.

hawaplop
April 10, 2010, 12:14 AM
2 things.

Does anyone else feel like Akatsuki kinda has the advantage right now in this Ninja war. I mean it seems close or like the Villages have the advantage but right now it seems like Akatsuki has the edge. Mainly because nobody knows what they are capable of and they have all the info on the villages. Plus Kisame is finding out everything etc.

Also, does anyone else think that Naruto might surpass Hokage? I think he might transcend that role. And become the leader of the Ninja world overall. They may have even a bigger statue for his face. They might chose an even bigger mountain to put his face on... like maybe at the Valley of the End. Have his face there and maybe Sasuke and Sakura depending on how big their role is in establishing this "peace".

Funny you mention the Naruto being the leader of the entire shinobi world.
I made that comment months ago only to be bashed by many users about it.
To me, it seems inevitable that he will either be the leader of all shinobi, or unite all shinobi to where kage's aren't even needed.

jdw
April 10, 2010, 12:42 AM
Maybe Naruto will end up leading/uniting the entire shinobi world. I think it is unlikely because the hidden villages represent some of the military force of the nation containing the village. Here an alliance has been formed because the 5 great villages share a common foe and interest, and their Daimyo's were actually the ones who approved the alliance (http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/488/01/). The hidden villages are not atop the hierchary, nor are the Kages. For Naruto to unite all the shinobi, imo he would have to (1) divorce the shinobi system from the nations (they may object because they would be losing military power, etc. Could cause a lot of destabilization, war, conflicts), or (2) all the nations would have to unite so as to have a common interest (they may object because they enjoy sovereignty, etc). There may be some other way, but I can't think of a reasonable conclusion aside from those two.

kingplaya(minato)
April 10, 2010, 07:26 AM
NaruHina FTW! \o/
She loves Sasuke as lover, but she's beginning to have more and more feelings for Naruto as she sees the man he truly is/truly is becoming.

Sasuke was planning to infiltrate Konoha and find Danzou and battle him. Covert.

Then she's confused:tem!
Nah, nah... he said he wanted to DESTROY kononha at that time...and considering his power levels at that time then i'd say he wanted to commit suicide!
[hr]

2 things.

Does anyone else feel like Akatsuki kinda has the advantage right now in this Ninja war. I mean it seems close or like the Villages have the advantage but right now it seems like Akatsuki has the edge. Mainly because nobody knows what they are capable of and they have all the info on the villages. Plus Kisame is finding out everything etc.

Also, does anyone else think that Naruto might surpass Hokage? I think he might transcend that role. And become the leader of the Ninja world overall. They may have even a bigger statue for his face. They might chose an even bigger mountain to put his face on... like maybe at the Valley of the End. Have his face there and maybe Sasuke and Sakura depending on how big their role is in establishing this "peace".

Just exclude sakura from your thouights...kishi doesn't seem to have anything planned 4 for her in the future...

Osprey
April 10, 2010, 11:44 AM
i think kishi messed up with both sakura and hinata as potential parings to naruto.
There is a reason for that. It's because romance is the furthest thing from Kishimoto's mind. He is not developing anyone as a love interest for any character. It's the fans that are doing that.

Going by his interviews, Kishi judges Sakura and Hinata on their ability to be heroines. Not on their ability to be love interests. Which frankly, they would fail at considering how little romance is in the manga..

kingplaya(minato)
April 10, 2010, 03:55 PM
There is a reason for that. It's because romance is the furthest thing from Kishimoto's mind. He is not developing anyone as a love interest for any character. It's the fans that are doing that.

Going by his interviews, Kishi judges Sakura and Hinata on their ability to be heroines. Not on their ability to be love interests. Which frankly, they would fail at considering how little romance is in the manga..

Emm... How would hinata fail in the romance department?... I fail to see that at any time...

hakuthehedgehog
April 10, 2010, 04:24 PM
Emm... How would hinata fail in the romance department?... I fail to see that at any time...

Because Naruto doesn't give her any attention at all o.O

kingplaya(minato)
April 10, 2010, 05:55 PM
Because Naruto doesn't give her any attention at all o.O

Well...umm...we could work our way through that huh?... It's not that bad a problem is it as sakura did to same to naruto till recently and after hinata's confession i think naruto would look at her more often(atleast i hope so)

Katz
April 10, 2010, 05:59 PM
IDK if anyone has posted this already (if so it can be deleted)

http://i41.tinypic.com/2iiwm4g.jpg

It's kinda in bad taste (RIP MJ) but I LOL'd

kingplaya(minato)
April 10, 2010, 07:54 PM
Maybe Naruto will end up leading/uniting the entire shinobi world. I think it is unlikely because the hidden villages represent some of the military force of the nation containing the village. Here an alliance has been formed because the 5 great villages share a common foe and interest, and their Daimyo's were actually the ones who approved the alliance (http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/488/01/). The hidden villages are not atop the hierchary, nor are the Kages. For Naruto to unite all the shinobi, imo he would have to (1) divorce the shinobi system from the nations (they may object because they would be losing military power, etc. Could cause a lot of destabilization, war, conflicts), or (2) all the nations would have to unite so as to have a common interest (they may object because they enjoy sovereignty, etc). There may be some other way, but I can't think of a reasonable conclusion aside from those two.

If only kishi thought as deeply as u<sigh>...sadly(fortunately) he doesn't think that far so there's still a pretty good chance that naruto just jinxs all damiyos or whatever and breaks the ninja control from their hands and he becomes lord...

officefan73
April 10, 2010, 08:24 PM
Kishi has done a horrible job at showcasing what Kakashi can do. Most of his fights end with him having to do a stay at the Konoha hospital. That's why I just don't know about him being Hokage. Then again, who else is out there? I know Kishi isn't going to give it to Naruto because it's still too early on in the series and that's probably how he wants to finish it.

Tsunade and Kakashi were both basically killed by a ninja that Naruto took on by himself. lol Just think about that. It doesn't look too good for either Tsunade or Kakashi.

Yeah but one HUGE advantage that Naruto had over Tsunade, Kakashi and Jirayia , was that he had information on every single Pain body due to the toad and Tsunade's summon intel

KiSwordsman
April 10, 2010, 08:40 PM
i gotta agree with kisame that this interesting character is just plain dumb...competing with kiba 4 the goofiest character now that naruto has been promoted to 'okay' and not so stupid.

No, Kiba is still the King. Anyone who can get provoked enough to attack someone over a stupid comment, turning there back on someone who was just about to betray them, this of course being revealed by the very person they are attacking, deserves to be the king of "goofy" characters.


Fun fact: Kiba is the only character in this manga that has lost to someone with a handicap, while not having one himself.

http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/49/07/

http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/77/13/

M3J
April 11, 2010, 01:22 AM
Kakashi was killed by Pain because he didn't know Asura could still come back. Kakashi still came pretty close to taking out two bodies WITHOUT genjutsu. Kakashi didn't have Sage Mode, nor did he use summons, two of which helped Jiraiya and Naruto out immensely. What Kakashi found out about Pain helped tremendously; it's how Naruto knew about 5 second rule. While Naruto did kill all seven bodies and Jiraiya three bodies by themselves, they both had Sage Mode and didn't start against Deva Pain, who was probably one of the most powerful bodies.
Kakashi did have help, but his durability was normal, whereas SM J+N were pretty high. Despite the odds, and despite having no info, Kakashi did pretty well. He even found out something about Pain and saved Chouji in order to let others know. He even outsmarted Pain on three occasions, at the least. And to be fair, Kakashi died due to using up what little chakra he had left to save Chouji. Same with Tsunade, she used up all her chakra or almost all her chakra to save the other villagers, which despite that she didn't die.

While Kakashi's fights haven't ended on the best note it could, I still think Kishi showed how awesome Kakashi was. He saved Shika and Chouji in an epic way when we thought Hidan's combo killed Kakashi; Kakashi used his MS and saved Team Kakashi and Team Gai from Deidara's self-destruct; Kakashi even set up an epic kill against Zabuza until Haku got in the way.
[hr]
Also, can people please explain how Tobito theory makes sense? Obito was a shrimp when he died, Tobi's much taller. When we saw Obito, he was shorter than Minato, if I recall right, about the same height as kid Kakashi. Kakashi now has similar height to Minato, just few centimeters short, and Tobi's tall as him, give or take.
Obito's right side was also completely crushed, there's no way he'd still have his eye intact. And why would his broken body be used when there are other good bodies in better shape? Two eyes can be used instead of one, and less work would be required to make the body presentable.

Nicholas.Sama
April 11, 2010, 11:56 AM
Kakashi was killed by Pain because he didn't know Asura could still come back. Kakashi still came pretty close to taking out two bodies WITHOUT genjutsu. Kakashi didn't have Sage Mode, nor did he use summons, two of which helped Jiraiya and Naruto out immensely. What Kakashi found out about Pain helped tremendously; it's how Naruto knew about 5 second rule. While Naruto did kill all seven bodies and Jiraiya three bodies by themselves, they both had Sage Mode and didn't start against Deva Pain, who was probably one of the most powerful bodies.



There's no "probably" about that.
Deva pain WAS the strongest Pain Body. It turned the tides on Naruto immediately after regaining its strength and one shot KO'd 3 boss level summons, made the Rasenshuriken its bitch, and ANNIHILATED THE LEAF VILLAGE
Things would have gone very differently for Naruto if Deva was active from the start.
So yeah Kakashi is awesome for nearly killing it WITHOUT prior knowledge of its abilities.
<hr noshade size="1">
Side note
Do people prefer to refer to Nagato's bodies as "its", or "hes" and "she"?

southside
April 11, 2010, 11:57 AM
I dont think things would have gone differently because he ended up pin down and captured by pain anyway. Pain could have killed him at that point but couldn't because the fox would die. Although its true with Deva there fully powered he may not have lost any bodies in the first place.

BTW Anyone else feel he didnt nuke the leaf out of spite but because so many people there new parts of his powers they would have been a threat in the future?

hakuthehedgehog
April 11, 2010, 12:45 PM
Deva's paths powers could be negated by using reverse Kuchikyose on Naruto.
While they could be problematic, it's not like he whould ownstomp Naurto immediatly.

M3J
April 11, 2010, 03:28 PM
There's no "probably" about that.
Deva pain WAS the strongest Pain Body. It turned the tides on Naruto immediately after regaining its strength and one shot KO'd 3 boss level summons, made the Rasenshuriken its bitch, and ANNIHILATED THE LEAF VILLAGE
Things would have gone very differently for Naruto if Deva was active from the start.
So yeah Kakashi is awesome for nearly killing it WITHOUT prior knowledge of its abilities.
<hr noshade size="1">
Side note
Do people prefer to refer to Nagato's bodies as "its", or "hes" and "she"?

Seventh body, Nagato's body, has to do with life and death though. While we haven't seen Nagato use his power to kill, he used it to revive. Imagine what'd happen if Nagato used his ability to kill. Of course though, I am basing this on Konan saying Nagato's the seventh path, of life and death, so it's possible he may not be able to really take away life.
If we ignore that, Deva Pain is really the most powerful body. Combined with Naraku, it'd be undefeatable unless someone takes out Naraku first, which would be almost impossible.
I guess since the bodies are dead, and just objects, it's "it" now. :s

hakuthehedgehog
April 11, 2010, 04:58 PM
Seventh body, Nagato's body, has to do with life and death though. While we haven't seen Nagato use his power to kill, he used it to revive. Imagine what'd happen if Nagato used his ability to kill. Of course though, I am basing this on Konan saying Nagato's the seventh path, of life and death, so it's possible he may not be able to really take away life.
If we ignore that, Deva Pain is really the most powerful body. Combined with Naraku, it'd be undefeatable unless someone takes out Naraku first, which would be almost impossible.
I guess since the bodies are dead, and just objects, it's "it" now. :s

That's what Naruto did, wasn't it? Unless I'm mistaking Naraku.
Personally, I think a much better combo whould be Human + Heaven, with BT and Human grabbing the head of the target while in mid-air: almost impossible to avoid.

M3J
April 11, 2010, 05:17 PM
He did, but Deva still needed to recharge and couldn't use his powers.
Kakashi showed us that being hit while flying isn't 100% guaranteed success. Deva just kept pushing Bansho Tenin and had more power, otherwise the bunshin could have avoided the stab from Asura.

White Silver King
April 11, 2010, 06:40 PM
Personally, I think a much better combo whould be Human + Heaven, with BT and Human grabbing the head of the target while in mid-air: almost impossible to avoid.

Idk what either of those are, can you explain please?

roggie
April 11, 2010, 06:42 PM
Deva's paths powers could be negated by using reverse Kuchikyose on Naruto.
While they could be problematic, it's not like he whould ownstomp Naurto immediatly.

Hey, perhaps Naruto will use hiraishin whith the help of clones. It would make him less overpowered and would keep the classic Naruto Way solution. :amuse

Andonan
April 11, 2010, 07:52 PM
Any chance that someone could perfectly translate this page http://static.mangahelpers.com/raws/databook3/japflap/033%20-%20Uchiha%20Izuna.jpg
I would like to know if Kishi could have been slightly peculiar in his description of Izuna's death at the hands of another ninja after loosing his eyes.

Basically what I'm hoping for is for someone to say the databook claims that
"Izuna's body was found dead after a battle post-loosing his eyes"
Basically my hypothesis (if you haven't looked at the other thread) is that Tobi = Izuna, and the only slight thing impeding what I think could be a perfect solution is this entry that says he was killed. However if Kishi was somehow ambiguous in Izuna's description, and claims his body was found and not just says "he died" then that will be the last piece of evidence I need.

On the other hand i still think Izuna = Tobi even if the databook is quite conclusive, too many things make sense for me, if you want a further explanation look at pg 99 o the prediction thread

jdw
April 11, 2010, 08:12 PM
Even if it says he was killed, or he "died" or whatever in the databook it isn't a big deal for your theory. I doubt kishi would spoil the unfolding plot in the databook.

Perfect or not, here goes Gottheim's translation (http://mangahelpers.com/forum/showthread.php?p=1175216#post1175216), I am not sure if you saw it already:

Top section

Main text

His older brother, leader of the Uchiha losing his eyesight: a literal synonym of "ruin" for the clan. Izuna chose himself to present his own eyes, without hesitation, without a word. An act tantamount to suicide for an Uchiha, as they owe their fame to their doujutsu...

Caption

-The shinobi at the Uchiha founder's side. He sacrifices his light for the sake of his clan.

Picture comment

-His eyes passed over to Madara, it doesn't take long before Izuna loses his life in battle...
Madara: My (little) brother acknowledged it all. Offering his eyes was his own initiative.

Bottom section
Title (right side): Konoha Information Panels Collection (tn: Arbitrary translation. Alternatives are welcome)... Number Twenty-Eight

Main text

The Mangekyou Sharingan, a rarity even throughout the Uchiha's history. The power it hides is frightening, thus so are the side-effects. As the caster keeps on using it, it takes away their eyesight. For those who master this powerful doujutsu, the apprehension of suddenly going blind is unfathomable. There is only one way to avoid the blindness, which is to steal a new Mangekyou Sharingan from a member of the clan... The vile method employed by Madara. The Mangekyou Sharingan; an accursed doujutsu that cannot go without victims.

Caption

The Mangekyou Sharingan, a blood-stained destiny

Picture comments

-Both awakened to Mangekyou Sharingan, the siblings were prodigiously talented.

-Using his (little) brother's eyes, Madara obtained an eternal Mangekyou Sharingan.
If you are not satisfied, maybe you can ask Cnet (http://mangahelpers.com/forum/showthread.php?p=443618#post443618).

KiSwordsman
April 12, 2010, 11:36 AM
Madara is a coward.
I thought he was 100% baddass, but Kabuto shows up and ties a leash around him..that's pathetic...

Every Character in every manga has some easily exploitable weakness. If they didn't they'd just be another Aizen Souske. trust me that gets really boring after awhile. I'd be willing to bet my account (yes I am pulling a bean) that once he overcomes his weaknesses and starts kicking the shit out of everybody that people will change their tune about him

M3J
April 12, 2010, 11:48 AM
Kabuto got owned by Naruto, who got owned by Madara. I think Madara just doesn't want to lose power, and with Kabuto and his ET, he could gain more power and be less indestructible.
I think with addition of Kabuto, we'll definitely see more shinobi fighting, teaming up to fight. I hope anyway.

And he technically did kick the shit out of Naruto. <_< He basically owned Team Konoha and their apparently flawless teamwork. None of them could land a hit on him; in fact I think Itachi's Amaterasu implant was the only one that even fazed Madara.
So far, we know Madara is extremely difficult to touch. This alone apparently makes him pretty powerful as he will be hard to kill. And to be fair, he hasn't the power he did during his and Hashirama's time.

lace2122
April 12, 2010, 12:04 PM
ok...this is COMPLETELY off topic nut i just wanna know. on narutopedia, it states that both hashirama and tobirama senju died in the first great shinobi world war and during that time they were training YOUNG hiruzen. how come by the end of that war, hiruzen was appointed hokage. that war MUST'VE been hella long. someone explain please?

KiSwordsman
April 12, 2010, 12:24 PM
Kabuto got owned by Naruto, who got owned by Madara. I think Madara just doesn't want to lose power, and with Kabuto and his ET, he could gain more power and be less indestructible.
I think with addition of Kabuto, we'll definitely see more shinobi fighting, teaming up to fight. I hope anyway.

And he technically did kick the shit out of Naruto. <_< He basically owned Team Konoha and their apparently flawless teamwork. None of them could land a hit on him; in fact I think Itachi's Amaterasu implant was the only one that even fazed Madara.
So far, we know Madara is extremely difficult to touch. This alone apparently makes him pretty powerful as he will be hard to kill. And to be fair, he hasn't the power he did during his and Hashirama's time.

I know that, tell that to the people who are talkin mess about madara just because kabuto has some leverage on him

I was. :P

jaymizzo
April 12, 2010, 12:27 PM
Deva Pain Isnt Stronger then Nagato *if thats what someone was reffering to*

Simple Fact of that Nagato has all of theyre powers including Life and death (As Stated By Konan)

If You need chapter reference, JDW is here for that

Katz
April 12, 2010, 12:29 PM
ok...this is COMPLETELY off topic nut i just wanna know. on narutopedia, it states that both hashirama and tobirama senju died in the first great shinobi world war and during that time they were training YOUNG hiruzen. how come by the end of that war, hiruzen was appointed hokage. that war MUST'VE been hella long. someone explain please?

^you really can't trust Narutopedia IMO, we don't exactly have a death cause for Hashirama, its shown here http://mangastream.com/read/naruto/481-47/9 during the 3rd's "teen years" that Tobirama was currently in the hokage seat, and Hashirama isn't around atleast during that battle scene, and if his younger brother is hokage (..my best speculation is that he died possibly from injuries during his battle with madara but who knows

hakuthehedgehog
April 12, 2010, 03:15 PM
Idk what either of those are, can you explain please?

Yahiko pain uses Basho Tenin (the force pull jutsu) and while he uses it, Human realm (the one with the long hair that killed Shizune) grabs the oponent's head while in mid-air and sucks their soul.
Almost impossible to block or dodge technique.
[hr]

He did, but Deva still needed to recharge and couldn't use his powers.
Kakashi showed us that being hit while flying isn't 100% guaranteed success. Deva just kept pushing Bansho Tenin and had more power, otherwise the bunshin could have avoided the stab from Asura.

Deva got his powers immeditly back to destroy the FRS.
Even if he had prior usage of it at the time, he whouldn't attack while Naruto used smoke, as we've seen in the Kakashi fight, yet Naruto managed to destroy Naraka.

M3J
April 12, 2010, 04:14 PM
Yahiko pain uses Basho Tenin (the force pull jutsu) and while he uses it, Human realm (the one with the long hair that killed Shizune) grabs the oponent's head while in mid-air and sucks their soul.
Almost impossible to block or dodge technique.
<hr noshade size="1">


Deva got his powers immeditly back to destroy the FRS.
Even if he had prior usage of it at the time, he whouldn't attack while Naruto used smoke, as we've seen in the Kakashi fight, yet Naruto managed to destroy Naraka.

He might actually have tried to Shinra Tensei Naruto away, at least when he transformed into FRS.

hakuthehedgehog
April 12, 2010, 04:16 PM
He might actually have tried to Shinra Tensei Naruto away, at least when he transformed into FRS.

Then he whould be open for another FRS, and a double Rasegan attack coming from above.

M3J
April 12, 2010, 04:19 PM
Actually, he'd not be open to another FRS as Naruto in Sage Mode requires two clones, one of which is flying down to rasengan Naraku and another which disappeared. If he summoned two more, that'd probably disrupt the clones gathering chakra.

Won't argue about double rasengan though as Deva definitely didn't see that coming and wouldn't have had defense against it, especially with Naraku in the way.

White Silver King
April 12, 2010, 08:26 PM
FRS

? Some kind of Rasenshuriken?

DarkPrinceRevan
April 12, 2010, 09:41 PM
Actually, he'd not be open to another FRS as Naruto in Sage Mode requires two clones, one of which is flying down to rasengan Naraku and another which disappeared. If he summoned two more, that'd probably disrupt the clones gathering chakra.

Won't argue about double rasengan though as Deva definitely didn't see that coming and wouldn't have had defense against it, especially with Naraku in the way.

if it counts for anything at the moment naruto could summon up to three clones at the time, so he had enough clones to make the second frs while he was henged

M3J
April 12, 2010, 10:52 PM
if it counts for anything at the moment naruto could summon up to three clones at the time, so he had enough clones to make the second frs while he was henged

But the original and one clone was occupied. Two others can't do FRS, and I'm not sure if the clones can handle holding FRS even though they did against Kakuzu. :s

Xiraiya
April 13, 2010, 12:02 AM
http://img535.imageshack.us/img535/9528/madizuna.png

So i put this together, and I personally think It's Izuna who is "Tobi" currently, the Hair matches much closer than madara's and seems to be what Izuna's hair would become when it's long, we've seen Madara with long hair and it looks very different to that in my opinion, though I can't claim facts but ever since I and some others suggested Izuna a long time ago and people all thought it was silly, it's beginning to look more and more plausible.

http://img690.imageshack.us/img690/5224/madarayoungbighair.png

As you See, Madara with long hair looks different to the "Madara" we saw meet Itachi.

The other thing is,as a younger brother himself, Izuna would be able to sympathize with Sasuke somewhat and use that as potential ways to manipulate him.

jdw
April 13, 2010, 12:10 AM
I have no real issue with the Tobi = Izuna theories really. I would just wonder why he wouldn't make a name for himself instead of spamming around the name of his brother, the guy who pirated his eyes, who was known as his peer anyway. I can't see what benefit he would derive from using Madara's name. Maybe Kishi will reveal something good. meh.

Destined_One
April 13, 2010, 06:51 AM
I have no real issue with the Tobi = Izuna theories really. I would just wonder why he wouldn't make a name for himself instead of spamming around the name of his brother, the guy who pirated his eyes, who was known as his peer anyway. I can't see what benefit he would derive from using Madara's name. Maybe Kishi will reveal something good. meh.

Well Madara was called power hungry by the Uchiha because he took Izuna's eyes and refused Hashiramas election as Hokage. In the end Madara was right, they were pushed aside by the Senju. Segregated away from everyone else and eventually slaughtered. Maybe Izuna wanted revenge against the Uchiha for their actions toward Madara (Because he loved his brother more than his clan), which is why he helped Itachi. He uses Madara's name because he is well known, and his power was respected, but like Sasuke wants Itachi to be seen as a hero, he wants his brothers name to be revered. Idk I guess Im just thinking how the theory could be plausible, as it might be sorta interesting. Well more so than, just plain ol Madara.
[hr]

After he got FRS he became an underdog with a super hax technique and after Sage Mode he went from chuunin level with a nuke technique to God tier instantly.

I agree that Naruto is no longer the underdog when it comes to strength, but he was at least Jounin level without FRS. His ability to succeed with the jutsu came from his own creativeness. Kakashi succeeded in taking one heart by using sneak tactics, where as Naruto confronting him head on, would have taken at least one heart with the first try if he was using his normal Rasengan. This suggest that he has what it takes to land a killing blow on an S class ninja. However I do see why you suggested such, seeing as the Kakuzu fight was his only real battle before Sage Mode. Other than that, he faced Tobi, who gave his father a little trouble as well, hell even the fabled Sasuke was embarrassed by our masked villain. Kakashi's suggestion that he was in the same league stand true, no matter how unrealistic some may believe.

The way he dealt with Deva, his displays versus team Kumo, and saving Sakura are very Kakashi-esk. (All done outside of Sage Mode (Well mostly))

3c
April 13, 2010, 07:21 AM
I agree that Naruto is no longer the underdog when it comes to strength, but he was at least Jounin level without FRS. His ability to succeed with the jutsu came from his own creativeness. Kakashi succeeded in taking one heart by using sneak tactics, where as Naruto confronting him head on, would have taken at least one heart with the first try if he was using his normal Rasengan. This suggest that he has what it takes to land a killing blow on an S class ninja. However I do see why you suggested such, seeing as the Kakuzu fight was his only real battle before Sage Mode. Other than that, he faced Tobi, who gave his father a little trouble as well, hell even the fabled Sasuke was embarrassed by our masked villain. Kakashi's suggestion that he was in the same league stand true, no matter how unrealistic some may believe.

The way he dealt with Deva, his displays versus team Kumo, and saving Sakura are very Kakashi-esk. (All done outside of Sage Mode (Well mostly))

I'm not convinced of Naruto having been Jounin level or at the same level as Kakashi (who is a true Elite Jounin/Kage level ninja) as he himself said Naruto was before Sage Mode. Having a jutsu that is able to take out S-class ninja doesn't necessarily make the same ninja into a S-class ninja. For starters, Naruto had Rasengan in part 1 and it's a very powerful technique. Obviously it's possible to take out more or less any normal shinobi if it's hit point blank like he did with God Realm. But it doesn't mean Naruto was an A-rank ninja in part 1. In my eyes Naruto was by far inferior to Kakashi in overall abilities. He may have had the best technique in history, but he was an "avarage" fighter in terms of overall ability with a nuke technique. Naruto after the Sage Mode training improved vastly and is now incredibly strong in base mode. To be honest we didn't see much of Naruto's base skills before his fight with Pain, so it's no telling if he was as awesome as he is now before his Sage Mode training. But from what we've seen Naruto was avarage to me (although having a terrifying technique) before his Sage Mode training and jumped out of it with vast improvements.

Newkerzy
April 13, 2010, 07:28 AM
Yes, I agree that Naruto compared to Kakashi is considered an average ninja overall. But he is an excellent tactician and his level of putting tactics together could be about the same level as Kakashi. With SM, he is truly a beast. So all in all, I think Naruto deserves to be a B-rank jounin.

Destined_One
April 13, 2010, 07:32 AM
I'm not convinced of Naruto having been Jounin level or at the same level as Kakashi (who is a true Elite Jounin/Kage level ninja) as he himself said Naruto was before Sage Mode. Having a jutsu that is able to take out S-class ninja doesn't necessarily make the same ninja into a S-class ninja. For starters, Naruto had Rasengan in part 1 and it's a very powerful technique. Obviously it's possible to take out more or less any normal shinobi if it's hit point blank like he did with God Realm. But it doesn't mean Naruto was an A-rank ninja in part 1. In my eyes Naruto was by far inferior to Kakashi in overall abilities. He may have had the best technique in history, but he was an "avarage" fighter in terms of overall ability with a nuke technique. Naruto after the Sage Mode training improved vastly and is now incredibly strong in base mode. To be honest we didn't see much of Naruto's base skills before his fight with Pain, so it's no telling if he was as awesome as he is now before his Sage Mode training. But from what we've seen Naruto was avarage to me (although having a terrifying technique) before his Sage Mode training and jumped out of it with vast improvements.

Then how do you explain Naruto being able to actually land the FRS? him being able to analyze Kakuzu's fighting style and find an opening is a clear indication that he was indeed a Jounin level nin at least. He doesn't have to be able to defeat Kakashi for Kakashi's words to remain true, seeing as matchup's count for a lot in the Naruto world, but he was at least in the same tier.

The very first attack against Kakuzu which Naruto failed to land, was because his lack of experience with FRS. However you replace that with Rasengan, and he would have achieved the very same thing as Kakashi (Which is destroying one heart). Kamui was Kakashi's trump card to defeat Kakuzu, which he admitted himself, just like FRS was for Naruto. Just because his number of jutsu's is inferior means little, as he is more than capable of solving most scenarios with Kagebushin and Rasengan. Jiraiya said it himself, it is not the number of jutsu's you know, its the guts to never give up. Also Yamato's suggested that this was a 'different' Naruto.

Id suggest Naruto at that point was very much like Asuma, in Kakashi's league, but not really lol.

3c
April 13, 2010, 07:43 AM
Difference in opinions I guess. To me Naruto wasn't that impressive. A few good tactics (where the opponent was dumbed down heavily in addition) and one super technique doesn't instantly make a person a "Jounin level" ninja to me. Naruto was way too lacking in many areas. His stats alone speak alot for his level. See Kakashi's stats (as an example) and you see what true balance is. Naruto is a one-trick pony with many sub-tricks under his sleeves. I'm not trying to downgrade him, I'm just saying that pre-Sage Mode training he wasn't THAT impressive too me. Kakuzu was dumbed down so heavily when fighting Naruto, and for the record Naruto would have died in the first ten seconds of the fight would it not have been for outside help from Yamato and Kakashi.

This issue is somewhat comparable to my opinion about Shikamaru. He's obviously a clever ninja, but his tools are way too limited for him to be considered as a S-class ninja. Still he beat Hidan because 1) he had prepared everything and 2) because he knew everything about Hidan. Despite beating a strong S-class ninja I don't view Shikamaru's fighting abilities as S-class, or even A-class for that matter.

I agree about your last sentence. He was probably in Kakashi's league while still not being in it in a sense. And Jiraiya's sentence about guts > ninjutsu is nonsense to me with a few exceptions. Guts can't prevail everywhere, but can certainly be useful in many cases like Naruto has proven. Still it would never hurt to have a few jutsus too many just in case guts alone can't defend your life from a killing blow.

Destined_One
April 13, 2010, 08:04 AM
I agree Kakuzu was dumbed down, however it was actually supposed to seem intelligent from Naruto, which is why Chouji compared him to Shikamaru. Though the whole Kakuzu conclusion wasn't one of Kishimoto's shining moments, and has rather undesirably failed in implementing such points. However In theory Naruto exposed Kakuzu twice and killed him the second time round, that has to count for something. I mean that is more than the other 2 so called chuunin's were capable of. If you remove the fact that it was written poorly, It was still the mangaka's intention to raise Naruto to that Jonin tier. Otherwise, why mention it.

juUnior
April 13, 2010, 08:12 AM
Well Madara was called power hungry by the Uchiha because he took Izuna's eyes and refused Hashiramas election as Hokage. In the end Madara was right, they were pushed aside by the Senju. Segregated away from everyone else and eventually slaughtered. Maybe Izuna wanted revenge against the Uchiha for their actions toward Madara (Because he loved his brother more than his clan), which is why he helped Itachi. He uses Madara's name because he is well known, and his power was respected, but like Sasuke wants Itachi to be seen as a hero, he wants his brothers name to be revered. Idk I guess Im just thinking how the theory could be plausible, as it might be sorta interesting. Well more so than, just plain ol Madara.
I find this explanation very, very good, and I wouldn't mind sth like that <it would at least explain:
- why Tobi was so shocked <in the coffin was his brothers body, which would be Uchiha Madara>
- why Tobi made a deal with Kabuto <to not reveal that he is in fact not the real deal, the real Madara, his own brother>
- why Tobi is doing what he's doing: for the name of his brother who was at the end somewhat right <or at least from the point of view of Uchiha>
I think it's pretty good theory to think Tobi is Izuna> I think it's a nice explanation, at least one of those so far which I really like ^^

btw. but still, even if I believe into the theory that Tobi is not the real Madara and in the coffin is the real Madara, I don't count Izuna/Obito to be the impostor. But maybe I'm dwelling into this too much.

benelori
April 13, 2010, 08:36 AM
I don't consider Kakuzu being dumbed...I think it can be said that naruto foresaw, that Kakuzu won't wait for the attack, and will attack the one doing FRS...this is naruto's merit, not that he made it behind him IMO...in tactics one must foresee, that's a key ingredient, and naruto did it...he adapted his initial attack, using Kakuzu to think he will do the same again, then with a little guts he managed to use the tech third time in one day...it's impressive for me, and kakuzu doesn't lose a shred of dignity here

Osprey
April 13, 2010, 09:02 AM
kakuzu doesn't lose a shred of dignity here
I disagree. Kakuzu was a character who bragged about his longevity and battle experience. For him to get beat like that was dumbing him down. I really expected Kishi to do something interesting in the Naruto-Kakuzu fight, but we should have realized it was just to show off Naruto's new nuke.


This issue is somewhat comparable to my opinion about Shikamaru. He's obviously a clever ninja, but his tools are way too limited for him to be considered as a S-class ninja. Still he beat Hidan because 1) he had prepared everything and 2) because he knew everything about Hidan. Despite beating a strong S-class ninja I don't view Shikamaru's fighting abilities as S-class, or even A-class for that matter.
Shikamaru is a very usual character. Because Kishimoto views him as a potential Hokage candidate despite his lack of jutsu or ambition. Even the Japanese voted him 3rd most likely to be Hokage after Naruto and Kakashi in the recent fanbook. And that's ahead of talented jounin like Gai, Kurenai, Neji, Yamato, etc. So essentially Kishi must view his mind as among the most deadly of justu. That will make him S-ranked. He is always going to be the MacGyver or Batman of the ninja world. Using all available tools and his mind to defeat physically stronger opponents with no margin for error.

Giving Shikamaru powerups like Naruto and Sasuke would defeat the purpose of the character. That doesn't mean he won't get a lot stronger. He was held back by his laziness.

Dapreachor
April 13, 2010, 09:05 AM
Okay, I was off a little but I still stand true to my statement. Hiruzen was 68 when he died so 15 years prior to that (when Kyubi attacked) puts him at 53 slightly older than Jiraiya when he died. I find it really hard to believe that at 53 he couldn't even make a dent into the Kyubi with his entire village fighting with him but at 30-something he could defeat him on his own along with one of the most powerful characters in the series with one of the most broken jutsu in the fiction universe. 53 really isn't that old. I guess we agree to disagree?

a 30 year old boxer still packs a punch, tbh anything over 85kg you're liable to actually die if they hit you properly.

But the same can not be said at 53, the human body basically goes into decline from the moment you hit 30, I'm not saying you're in your peak at 30, but once you passed that milestone everything slows down, becomes weaker, etc..

Hiruzen was taught by the first two kage's he was basically their legacy and the greatest hokage to date according to the data book, you should really just accept that. Unless you're sasgay, then no chakra means you die.. so he was greatly limited and still managed to seal away his tutors and oro's arms. Sure you can say they were weaker from the impure ressurection technique but they still used big jutsus i.e total blackout thing and sprouting a forest out of the top of a concrete building.

elitefox
April 13, 2010, 09:07 AM
Difference in opinions I guess. To me Naruto wasn't that impressive. A few good tactics (where the opponent was dumbed down heavily in addition) and one super technique doesn't instantly make a person a "Jounin level" ninja to me. Naruto was way too lacking in many areas. His stats alone speak alot for his level. See Kakashi's stats (as an example) and you see what true balance is. Naruto is a one-trick pony with many sub-tricks under his sleeves. I'm not trying to downgrade him, I'm just saying that pre-Sage Mode training he wasn't THAT impressive too me. Kakuzu was dumbed down so heavily when fighting Naruto, and for the record Naruto would have died in the first ten seconds of the fight would it not have been for outside help from Yamato and Kakashi.

This issue is somewhat comparable to my opinion about Shikamaru. He's obviously a clever ninja, but his tools are way too limited for him to be considered as a S-class ninja. Still he beat Hidan because 1) he had prepared everything and 2) because he knew everything about Hidan. Despite beating a strong S-class ninja I don't view Shikamaru's fighting abilities as S-class, or even A-class for that matter.

I agree about your last sentence. He was probably in Kakashi's league while still not being in it in a sense. And Jiraiya's sentence about guts > ninjutsu is nonsense to me with a few exceptions. Guts can't prevail everywhere, but can certainly be useful in many cases like Naruto has proven. Still it would never hurt to have a few jutsus too many just in case guts alone can't defend your life from a killing blow.

Well Remember that Naruto just got of training with almost no rest and he made a quite impressive action there

I don't think Kakuzu is dumbed down but thinks the obvious tactic/logical thing to do which is to attack the sniper at the back of trees.

and added to that I agree that This is the first time Naruto has ever tried rasenshuriken on an enemy.

benelori
April 13, 2010, 09:19 AM
I disagree. Kakuzu was a character who bragged about his longevity and battle experience. For him to get beat like that was dumbing him down. I really expected Kishi to do something interesting in the Naruto-Kakuzu fight, but we should have realized it was just to show off Naruto's new nuke.


Longevity and battle experience...he had two hearts destroyed by people younger than him...Kakashi and Shikamaru...though it was a well thought out team-play, the result is still the same...
With Naruto...obviously Kakuzu underestimated him, just like he did with Shikamaru as well...
Both tactics...in destroying four-hearts had the element of unpredictable...in Naruto's case, the fact that he was worn out from training and he supposedly attacked directly, were things that made the sneak attack unpredictable
And U use a good word there..."bragged"

juUnior
April 13, 2010, 11:24 AM
jdw made a post with Madara saying "I am Uchiha Madara" in the topic with the chapter discussion/predictions, and I think that if we continue that we come to the conclusion that he really isn't Uchiha Madara. Now that I think about it it's somewhat fishy that he always tells ppl who he is <at least someone can get the impression now <I did when I read the post by jdw :p> that he do this to emphasise that "he is Uchiha Madara and don't think I'm lying" rather than just being a mr.nice guy>

Pervy Sage
April 13, 2010, 03:17 PM
Hmm.. I just stumbled across something when I was reading some old chapters. http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/145/18/
On this page Kisame states that Sasuke's Sharingan is the second pair he has ever seen. But he instantly recognized Tobi/Madara, who has a clearly visible Sharingan, as being the Mizukage, whom he must've seen before going after Naruto with Itachi. So... plot hole, or did Tobi aquire his Sharingan(s) after he left the position of Mizukage? Please share your thoughts :)

The "another Sharingan" part, could of course mean that Sasukes's Sharingan is the second pair Kisame has seen in addition to the first pair he ever saw (perhaps Tobi's). Am I making any sense? xd lol

juUnior
April 13, 2010, 03:37 PM
Hmm.. I just stumbled across something when I was reading some old chapters. http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/145/18/
On this page Kisame states that Sasuke's Sharingan is the second pair he has ever seen. But he instantly recognized Tobi/Madara, who has a clearly visible Sharingan, as being the Mizukage, whom he must've seen before going after Naruto with Itachi. So... plot hole, or did Tobi aquire his Sharingan(s) after he left the position of Mizukage? Please share your thoughts
Erm, at that time "Tobi" was doing his work from the shadows, Kisame didn't knew about him. And I think as Mizukage <whatever it was> he didn't show Sharingan <and we don't know how it was: he was the Mizukage, he was controlling someone, etc>

As for his Sharingan - I always thought that he's not showing it to anybody besides the ppl who knew him <at the time from when he oficially joined Aka to the moment when he revealed being "Uchiha Madara" and claiming that he is the one>

Pervy Sage
April 13, 2010, 03:50 PM
Erm, at that time "Tobi" was doing his work from the shadows, Kisame didn't knew about him. And I think as Mizukage <whatever it was> he didn't show Sharingan <and we don't know how it was: he was the Mizukage, he was controlling someone, etc>

As for his Sharingan - I always thought that he's not showing it to anybody besides the ppl who knew him <at the time from when he oficially joined Aka to the moment when he revealed being "Uchiha Madara" and claiming that he is the one>

But it seemed like Kisame knew that Madara was the Mizukage.. that is at least how I understand this page http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/404/02/. And if he knew that the Mizukage was Madara, he must've known that he had a Sharingan..

Destined_One
April 13, 2010, 03:57 PM
Hmm.. I just stumbled across something when I was reading some old chapters. http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/145/18/
On this page Kisame states that Sasuke's Sharingan is the second pair he has ever seen. But he instantly recognized Tobi/Madara, who has a clearly visible Sharingan, as being the Mizukage, whom he must've seen before going after Naruto with Itachi. So... plot hole, or did Tobi aquire his Sharingan(s) after he left the position of Mizukage? Please share your thoughts :)

The "another Sharingan" part, could of course mean that Sasukes's Sharingan is the second pair Kisame has seen in addition to the first pair he ever saw (perhaps Tobi's). Am I making any sense? xd lol

Im pretty sure Kisame was referring to seeing both Kakashi & Sasuke in the same day. It makes no sense that he has only seen 2, since he saw Kakashi just a few hours prior.

Rikudou King
April 13, 2010, 04:23 PM
Longevity and battle experience...he had two hearts destroyed by people younger than him...Kakashi and Shikamaru...though it was a well thought out team-play, the result is still the same...
With Naruto...obviously Kakuzu underestimated him, just like he did with Shikamaru as well...
Both tactics...in destroying four-hearts had the element of unpredictable...in Naruto's case, the fact that he was worn out from training and he supposedly attacked directly, were things that made the sneak attack unpredictable
And U use a good word there..."bragged" the problem was that Kakuzu specifically mention what he needed to do against Naruto and yet he didn't follow any of his plan. He had the capacity to completely block all of Naruto's attempts, Yet he limited himself to only attacking a few at a time. Instead of Naruto overcoming Kakuzu's abilities, Naruto ended up never having to face them.

7thTatamiMat
April 13, 2010, 05:36 PM
One pawn that I'd like to see Kabuto use is Kimimaro. One of the best KG out there.

When I first saw box #6 and Madara's reaction, I figured it had to be Rikudou Sennin. Who else would make Madara have incontinence problems? But then this little statement (http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/489/06/) by Kakashi put me on the "Madara isn't Madara" bandwagon. Knowing that Kabuto could summon the real Madara would definitely make "Madara" nervous. If it ain't Madara then, who is it? The Fourth Mizukage? I don't buy into the theory it's Madara's brother. He is a riddle however. I believe the databook says he died on the battlefield but what's a blind guy doing on the battlefield?

juUnior
April 13, 2010, 05:39 PM
Pervy Sage, I think you dwell too much into this :p I think the explanation by Destined_One sounds very good xD

But about Mizukage stuff - I agree <but I do believe it's to early to judge that - we don't even know what Godaime Mizukage meant with saying "Yondaime Mizukage was controlled by someone from the outside, presumbaly Akatsuki"> thus we cannot make proper judgements whether Kisame should have known Madara with Sharingan or not <what I mean: if he was the Mizukage, or he just controlled Mizukage, etc. and Kisame liked that and such stuff> Heck, Madara for all we know could have been the Sandaime Mizukage :p <if I recall correctly Kisame said "former Mizukage" only>

danik
April 14, 2010, 02:34 AM
I don't know if this kind of question was here.
However, why sending kisame to recon if zetsu and madara can teleport/move anywhere?
First I thought that they have restrictions like in "Jumper". But they both travelled anywhere they wanted. Ijust don't get it

Destined_One
April 14, 2010, 06:05 AM
I don't know if this kind of question was here.
However, why sending kisame to recon if zetsu and madara can teleport/move anywhere?
First I thought that they have restrictions like in "Jumper". But they both travelled anywhere they wanted. Ijust don't get it

Half of Zetsu was babysitting Sasuke, and Tobi flat out said he wasn't a combat type ninja. I think the fact he was decapitated almost instantly by the Raikage & Kirabi was proof of that. If the job requires both reconnaissance & retrieval of the Hachibi, Zetsu would be at a disadvantage. Hence the convenience behind Kisame's situation.

Tobi is the big boss, he isn't going to get his hands dirty, when he has perfectly capable minions who can do it for him. Also he is supposedly planning something with the Rinnegan, along with making sure Sasuke is primed for his up coming heavy weight bout. Does that make Kirabi Bundini Brown? 'Float like a butterfly sting like a bee.. Rumble young man rumble ahhhh!!"

benelori
April 14, 2010, 06:35 AM
the problem was that Kakuzu specifically mention what he needed to do against Naruto and yet he didn't follow any of his plan. He had the capacity to completely block all of Naruto's attempts, Yet he limited himself to only attacking a few at a time. Instead of Naruto overcoming Kakuzu's abilities, Naruto ended up never having to face them.

UR right...Kakuzu knew exactly what he had to do against Naruto...to take out the one with the technique, cuz the rest ain't important...that's what Naruto foresaw and acted on...

Rikudou King
April 14, 2010, 08:46 AM
UR right...Kakuzu knew exactly what he had to do against Naruto...to take out the one with the technique, cuz the rest ain't important...that's what Naruto foresaw and acted on... Kakuzu knew he should take them out from a distance and he had the means to take all of them out, Not just one. Regardless of whether he though they were a threat or not, There's no reason he should have suddenly forgotten his own reasoning and his abilities.

hakuthehedgehog
April 14, 2010, 12:19 PM
Kakuzu knew he should take them out from a distance and he had the means to take all of them out, Not just one. Regardless of whether he though they were a threat or not, There's no reason he should have suddenly forgotten his own reasoning and his abilities.

Kakuzu's speed and abilities could only kill 3 KB before Naruto could reach him with a FRS, so he only targeted the real one, since he other three were useless.

Rikudou King
April 14, 2010, 02:44 PM
Kakuzu's speed and abilities could only kill 3 KB before Naruto could reach him with a FRS, so he only targeted the real one, since he other three were useless. There was nothing like that limiting Kakuzu. He could have attacked all the clones coming at him with those thread tentacles and still had some to protect himself. There was no reason he should have risked ignoring the clones when he could have easily dealt with them at the same time.

hakuthehedgehog
April 14, 2010, 03:12 PM
There was nothing like that limiting Kakuzu. He could have attacked all the clones coming at him with those thread tentacles and still had some to protect himself. There was no reason he should have risked ignoring the clones when he could have easily dealt with them at the same time.

No, he couldn't, otherwise he whould've done it at the first time.
When Naruto first attacked him with FRS, he didn't have time to attack all of them with the tentacles, they were to close and he had to use the masks, and Naruto attacked him.
If he attacted all of them with those big tentacles, spliting his attention into 4, most of them whould most likely dodge the attack, and that's why he used all 5 of them in an attack that was very hard to dodge, nullifiing all the possible damage Naruto could've done to him (or so he though).

Moogle Mango
April 14, 2010, 04:17 PM
I just realized that the chef from Ichamaru Ramen has always liked Naruto from the beginning, yet, he never appears in Naruto's visions of him finally having a support system! Naruto, never forget the person who feeds you!!

KiSwordsman
April 14, 2010, 06:00 PM
no mention of Suigetsu or Juugo huh? I guess Mifune took care of them, though he should probably mention that he's captured two of Sasuke's teammates. Seems kinda weird how everybody has forgotten them

pretty good chapter, Kishi's been putting a lot more humor into his writing recently. I guess he got tired of all darkness bullshit

Man Juugo was ok, but Suigetsu was Supreme Epic Failure . The only reason I have even a little bit of respect for him is because, despite everything, he looked out for his comrades. They most likely will turn up soon, but I won't care to much if they dont
[hr]



Also, there's a huge possibility Naruto will lose the Kyuubi, and that will only happen if Kirabi is dead.

And lose whatever jutsu it is that will help him beat madara?

M3J
April 14, 2010, 11:28 PM
Half of Zetsu was babysitting Sasuke, and Tobi flat out said he wasn't a combat type ninja. I think the fact he was decapitated almost instantly by the Raikage & Kirabi was proof of that. If the job requires both reconnaissance & retrieval of the Hachibi, Zetsu would be at a disadvantage. Hence the convenience behind Kisame's situation.

Tobi is the big boss, he isn't going to get his hands dirty, when he has perfectly capable minions who can do it for him. Also he is supposedly planning something with the Rinnegan, along with making sure Sasuke is primed for his up coming heavy weight bout. Does that make Kirabi Bundini Brown? 'Float like a butterfly sting like a bee.. Rumble young man rumble ahhhh!!"

Madara most likely can't fight Killerbee as well, at least a jinchuuriki with mastery over his bijuu. We have never seen him use ninjutsu or even genjutsu, just taijutsu and Sharingan.

Rikudou King
April 15, 2010, 12:47 PM
No, he couldn't, otherwise he whould've done it at the first time.
When Naruto first attacked him with FRS, he didn't have time to attack all of them with the tentacles, they were to close and he had to use the masks, and Naruto attacked him.
If he attacted all of them with those big tentacles, spliting his attention into 4, most of them whould most likely dodge the attack, and that's why he used all 5 of them in an attack that was very hard to dodge, nullifiing all the possible damage Naruto could've done to him (or so he though). That's my point. Kakuzu had the ability yet he wasn't allow to use it. The mask themselves have their own minds, Something shown earlier, So there was no reason they couldn't have handled the clones coming in from the side and behind on their own. There was no "splitting" of attention when he had three minds to guard with. Then there's the range of his tentacles and of his elemental techniques, Both of which could have taken the clones out before they got near. Now all through his fight before, Kakuzu has shown the ability to use his threads against multiple people, To guard and to catch them. He had no trouble then when he went up against Kakashi and Team 10. It would not have taken much to handle the clones, As Kakuzu himself proved earlier. Yet instead of using them as he should have, Kakuzu decides to only target the supposed real one, Even through he himself realized that it would be smarter to switch to long distance attacks and him having his mask to aid him.

So for him to just ignore his own advice and abilities and his masks to suddenly lose their independence proves to me nothing more then he was dumb down just so Naruto could attempt the same technique over and over again without having to actually fight, Which is lame and crappy.

hakuthehedgehog
April 15, 2010, 01:10 PM
That's my point. Kakuzu had the ability yet he wasn't allow to use it. The mask themselves have their own minds, Something shown earlier, So there was no reason they couldn't have handled the clones coming in from the side and behind on their own. There was no "splitting" of attention when he had three minds to guard with. Then there's the range of his tentacles and of his elemental techniques, Both of which could have taken the clones out before they got near. Now all through his fight before, Kakuzu has shown the ability to use his threads against multiple people, To guard and to catch them. He had no trouble then when he went up against Kakashi and Team 10. It would not have taken much to handle the clones, As Kakuzu himself proved earlier. Yet instead of using them as he should have, Kakuzu decides to only target the supposed real one, Even through he himself realized that it would be smarter to switch to long distance attacks and him having his mask to aid him.

So for him to just ignore his own advice and abilities and his masks to suddenly lose their independence proves to me nothing more then he was dumb down just so Naruto could attempt the same technique over and over again without having to actually fight, Which is lame and crappy.

The masks could only control the elemental attack, not the tentacles.
Kazuzu did those things you described, and Naruto almost hit him with the FRS.
Since the clones were of no real danger, he just dodged them and went for the original with a long rane attack.
Had the tried to attack all the clones with that long range attack, most of them whould dodge and then the original whould hit Kakuzu.
Kakuzu could only handle three bodies before the fourth actually got to him.
The strategies you are implying are only valid if Kakazu had the ability to handle 4 bodies simultaneosly, but he only could handle 3 before the 4th was about to kill him.
You said Kakuzu had no problem with the clones, but when he finished killing 3 of them, Naruto was already near him with a FRS ready to own his ass.

Rikudou King
April 15, 2010, 02:41 PM
The masks could only control the elemental attack, not the tentacles.
Kazuzu did those things you described, and Naruto almost hit him with the FRS.
Since the clones were of no real danger, he just dodged them and went for the original with a long rane attack.
Had the tried to attack all the clones with that long range attack, most of them whould dodge and then the original whould hit Kakuzu.
Kakuzu could only handle three bodies before the fourth actually got to him.
The strategies you are implying are only valid if Kakazu had the ability to handle 4 bodies simultaneosly, but he only could handle 3 before the 4th was about to kill him.
You said Kakuzu had no problem with the clones, but when he finished killing 3 of them, Naruto was already near him with a FRS ready to own his ass. The mask can't control the tentacles? Strange, Because that's what they were basically doing earlier, Controlling the tectacles and moving on their own. Yet for some reason they now can't?

Naruto almost hit him because Kakuzu took his time attacking. He could have just used his elemental techniques first and taken out all the clones at once. And the clones were more of a risk then Ino had been, Yet that didn't stop him from trying to kill her. The moment he saw that Naruto's strategy was switching place with his clones, The clones became an equal risk to him. Kakuzu's attacks were faster then Naruto would have been, Considering Naruto is no where as fast as Kakashi was, Who was having trouble with them. So there's no reason a slower target would have been able to evade them. Kakuzu from all that he showed beforehand had the capacity to handle all the Narutos before they even got in range of him. There's no explanation for why Kakuzu couldn't handle Naruto's lame attack plan.

hakuthehedgehog
April 15, 2010, 02:52 PM
Kakuzu couldn't have used an element attack and Naruto, at least not the one with FRS, it whould backfire one him and he whould die.
Kakuzu was faster than Naruto, but using Kage Bushins as feint gave Naruto time to actually reach Kakuzu and use FRS.
Naruto's strategy wasn't switching places with his clones, it was use them as feints.
Kakuzu understimated him and he got owned.
He was shown to be able to handle the clones, but when he finished it, he was already near him with FRS, he wasn't able to trap all of them instantly with his tentacles.

M3J
April 15, 2010, 04:04 PM
If Kakuzu went after the real one, he thought there would be no chance of FRS and Naruto would be taken out, thus his clones disappearing as well.

jdw
April 15, 2010, 04:16 PM
I think the simplest reason for Kakuzu not using elemental attacks against Naruto's clones at that time is the following: He still had a crapload of people to fight even if he took out Naruto. Why waste chakra on KB's? He just saw Naruto do the same damn thing, at least so he thought. Kakuzu knew he might have to face Kakashi, Yamato, Ino, and Chouji who were all right in front of him iirc. And he had to consider the possibility he might have to fight Sakura and Sai as well, though thy went to back up Shika, and possibly fight Shika himself (though he thought Shika would die against Hidan).

Rikudou King
April 15, 2010, 04:20 PM
Why couldn't Kakuzu have used an elemental technique? The range and coverage of them is quite great. There's no way naruto could have dodged it. The only reason Naruto was able to reach Kakuzu was because Kakuzu wasn't attacking all of them in the first place. Had he actually done that, Naruto would have had a very hard time getting close to him. That's basically what Naruto did, Switch where he was with a clone. I guess you can say it was a feint. Point being, Once he saw it the first time there was no reason to only attack the "real" Naruto. The problem with saying Kakuzu underestimated Naruto is that Kakuzu himself stated that he should switch to long distance. Kakuzu recognized what he needed to do and didn't do it. Kakuzu could have easily been able to handle things with all his abilities, Yet he ignored not only them, But also his own chosen strategy.

@jdw: All those people were behind Naruto. They would have been caught in the blast with Naruto, Eliminating most of them. He then could have moved on to any survivors.

hakuthehedgehog
April 15, 2010, 04:30 PM
Kakuzu couldn't have used and element attack against all of them because it whould be element attack vs FRS.
Since FRS is more powerful than any attack at Kakuzu's disposal, the force of FRS whould be actually boosted by Kakuzu's attack and he would be killed.

Rikudou King
April 15, 2010, 04:40 PM
Considering their power, I would say Kakuzu's techniques were just as powerful as the FRS. Anyhow, Kakuzu's techniques couldn't have killed Kakuzu since they would have been nowhere near him. Plus, Kakuzu's techniques would have taken out Naruto before the FRS was finished, Resulting in no blowback. Not to mention the elemental advantage Kakuzu would have gained even if the FRS was ready.

hakuthehedgehog
April 15, 2010, 04:43 PM
Considering their power, I would say Kakuzu's techniques were just as powerful as the FRS. Anyhow, Kakuzu's techniques couldn't have killed Kakuzu since they would have been nowhere near him. Plus, Kakuzu's techniques would have taken out Naruto before the FRS was finished, Resulting in no blowback. Not to mention the elemental advantage Kakuzu would have gained even if the FRS was ready.

I dunno the ranks of the elemental techniques Kakuzu used, but I'm sure none of them were S-rank.
So, FRS, being more powerful, whould gain even more power (even with element advantage) and push the jutsu back to Kakuzu and then kill him 3 times.
Also, the jutsus roughly take as much time as Naruto preparing FRS.

Rikudou King
April 15, 2010, 05:34 PM
I dunno the ranks of the elemental techniques Kakuzu used, but I'm sure none of them were S-rank.
So, FRS, being more powerful, whould gain even more power (even with element advantage) and push the jutsu back to Kakuzu and then kill him 3 times.
Also, the jutsus roughly take as much time as Naruto preparing FRS.
B or A rank, I'm not sure. But elemental nature means that Kakuzu's techniques would gain power from the FRS even while being weaker and hit Naruto. Also, Kakuzu's techniques have a greater force behind them. Anyway, Kakuzu showed that he can fire them off real fast, Hitting the two clones when they were mere feet from him. Naruto needed time to generate the FRS before it could be used. So Kakuzu would have the edge.

Naruto_Rasengan
April 16, 2010, 02:12 AM
B or A rank, I'm not sure. But elemental nature means that Kakuzu's techniques would gain power from the FRS even while being weaker and hit Naruto. Also, Kakuzu's techniques have a greater force behind them. Anyway, Kakuzu showed that he can fire them off real fast, Hitting the two clones when they were mere feet from him. Naruto needed time to generate the FRS before it could be used. So Kakuzu would have the edge.

All of the Jutsu Kakuzu released were B-Rank. Every single one of them.

I understand what you're trying to say, but Kakuzu's jutsu do not have more power than that of Naruto's, espcially not Fuuton: RasenShuriken.

The only jutsu that would allow Kakuzu to overpower Naruto's is a Katon. Doton, Fuuton and Raiton have no advantage over Fuuton and Kakuzu did not show a single elemental jutsu on the same level as Naruto's.

However, Kakuzu was shown to perform a combined Katon & Fuuton by fusing his masks but it's not known if he could do that will all. Not that it really matters anymore considering he no longer has 5 Hearts.

ornis
April 16, 2010, 09:50 AM
@jdw: All those people were behind Naruto. They would have been caught in the blast with Naruto, Eliminating most of them. He then could have moved on to any survivors.

An elemental blast I presume... That blast can be fired prematurely though. Kakuzu should be prudent enough to judge the poor likelihood of catching nearly all persons behind Naruto in one attack. Kakuzu'd probably hold his guns. Kakuzu's attempt at a "slay-all-elemental-shot" and subsequent failure would be a repeat of what he already tried versus Kakashi, Chouji, and Ino; it would be on par with not being aware of Naruto and Yamato's entrance prior to or in close tandem with Gufuu Suika's release; trying an elemental shot an failing would be a repeat comparable to Naruto's FRS fizz-out in Naruto's first attempt to stick it to Kakuzu. Trying any silver bullet and failing is something that seems a little dangerous to Kakuzu from his experience with Naruto alone.

hakuthehedgehog
April 16, 2010, 12:08 PM
B or A rank, I'm not sure. But elemental nature means that Kakuzu's techniques would gain power from the FRS even while being weaker and hit Naruto. Also, Kakuzu's techniques have a greater force behind them. Anyway, Kakuzu showed that he can fire them off real fast, Hitting the two clones when they were mere feet from him. Naruto needed time to generate the FRS before it could be used. So Kakuzu would have the edge.

No, in a clash between two jutsu of the same power, the one with the element addvantage is the one that wins.
In any clash between any elements, the stronger one is the one that wins and overpowers the other, gaining power in Naruto's case.
Naruto was also shown to use FRS pretty quickly, he formed it very quickly to hit Kakuzu from behind, also, the jutsu that Kakuzu used against the clones weren't as powerful as the fusion one, plus the attack was shown to be dodged sucessefully, which Naruto could to and then overpower Kakuzu with FRS.

Rikudou King
April 16, 2010, 01:56 PM
All of the Jutsu Kakuzu released were B-Rank. Every single one of them.

I understand what you're trying to say, but Kakuzu's jutsu do not have more power than that of Naruto's, espcially not Fuuton: RasenShuriken.

The only jutsu that would allow Kakuzu to overpower Naruto's is a Katon. Doton, Fuuton and Raiton have no advantage over Fuuton and Kakuzu did not show a single elemental jutsu on the same level as Naruto's.

However, Kakuzu was shown to perform a combined Katon & Fuuton by fusing his masks but it's not known if he could do that will all. Not that it really matters anymore considering he no longer has 5 Hearts. Individually they were B rank, But no rank was given for their combination, Which powered them up. Kakuzu's techniques showed as much power as the FRS did at that time. Kakuzu had a fire technique. His katon and fuuton mask were the last two left. That means he would have been able to power up his fire technique with his wind technique and then again with the FRS.


An elemental blast I presume... That blast can be fired prematurely though. Kakuzu should be prudent enough to judge the poor likelihood of catching nearly all persons behind Naruto in one attack. Kakuzu'd probably hold his guns. Kakuzu's attempt at a "slay-all-elemental-shot" and subsequent failure would be a repeat of what he already tried versus Kakashi, Chouji, and Ino; it would be on par with not being aware of Naruto and Yamato's entrance prior to or in close tandem with Gufuu Suika's release; trying an elemental shot an failing would be a repeat comparable to Naruto's FRS fizz-out in Naruto's first attempt to stick it to Kakuzu. Trying any silver bullet and failing is something that seems a little dangerous to Kakuzu from his experience with Naruto alone. He failed because Naruto and Yamato suddenly appeared and interrupted him. He wouldn't need to worry about that happening again. If he did it again, They would not have had time to counter him and would have been open to his attack. With no time to counter, It's likely that Naruto, Chouji, And Ino would have died, And possibly Kakashi depending on how tired he was. Kakuzu would have then been left to either fight with those left alive or a chance to run.


No, in a clash between two jutsu of the same power, the one with the element addvantage is the one that wins.
In any clash between any elements, the stronger one is the one that wins and overpowers the other, gaining power in Naruto's case.
Naruto was also shown to use FRS pretty quickly, he formed it very quickly to hit Kakuzu from behind, also, the jutsu that Kakuzu used against the clones weren't as powerful as the fusion one, plus the attack was shown to be dodged sucessefully, which Naruto could to and then overpower Kakuzu with FRS. Kakuzu's fire technique would have gained power from his own wind technique and then gained more from the FRS. When it actually got a hit, The FRS exploded when it collided with Kakuzu and did damage to Naruto also. So it's not hard to see that it colliding with the enhanced fire technique would cause it to explode and hurt Naruto. And being away from them all, Kakuzu would have avoid taking any damage. Considering Kakuzu had his back turned from him, Naruto had plenty of time to make the FRS. But it's been shown beforehand that the FRS takes some time to make. Naruto couldn't have dodged the technique and hit Kakuzu with the FRS because he couldn't hold the that long and he would have been open to the tentacles. And even if he avoided being taken, he would then have to make more clones to restart the FRS, Giving Kakuzu another opening.

kulatheone
April 16, 2010, 04:05 PM
Hey, have you guys recognized, that in naruto ova 2, some guy named suien(this "main" villain) have almost (maybe the same) voice as madara ?(just another role, he is so loud) :P

ornis
April 16, 2010, 09:25 PM
He failed because Naruto and Yamato suddenly appeared and interrupted him. He wouldn't need to worry about that happening again. If he did it again, They would not have had time to counter him and would have been open to his attack. Assumptive. Given Gufuu Suika's swift prep time and success against Kakuzu's "fast" Katon + Fuuton setup and salvo, I'd say Yamato and Naruto have a good thing going.


With no time to counter, It's likely that Naruto, Chouji, And Ino would have died, And possibly Kakashi depending on how tired he was. Kakuzu would have then been left to either fight with those left alive or a chance to run.

Kamui. Near instantaneous warp of Kakuzu's "Final Blast" seems a comfortable back-up plan to me. Kishimoto has demonstrated that Kakashi can use Kamui fast. (Cite Kakashi transposing the explosion of Deidara's self-donating clone [following Neji's discovery of Deidara, after "Team Naruto" tracked down and retrieved Gaara's body].) And if Naruto and Yamato have time to show the two attacks they use to make Gufuu Suika, and spare time to then combine them into GS, which proceeds to counter an elemental combo of Jounin grade attacks in chapter 337, Kakashi has time to release Kamui.

Ultimately, I feel you are assuming that this is a battle royale between Team Naruto and Kakuzu's puppet parade in which some sort of Kakuzu slews combo shots with break neck haste when Narutoverse's Kakuzu demonstrated that he doesn't, numerous times. In your fighting arena, I can see your direction holding a point, but Kishi has illustrated a Kakuzu who preps combo blasts (e.g., Katon + Fuuton) with a little dialogue or an ounce of suspense to bite on beforehand.

Be it your seeming aim to make fellow posters aware that Kakuzu had the capacity to beat Naruto yet wasted it, canon brushes with a matter of your opinion, the latter of which presumes Kakuzu forsook his gift of great elemental and combative advantages. It appears he was incompetent to reach your idea of his potential. And if this is truly upsetting... well, at least I would stop short of making a shrine for the character. I think it's easy to see Kakuzu had big guns but spoke too softly in his time with Naruto. Alas. He could do better if Kakuzu and Naruto reiterate and revise their bout, as Kakuzu shows himself keener per his stratagem and quicker in his pace.

So your view seems not a convincing estimate of known Kakuzu's nerve. Though, in my opinion, it would be more practical for that Kakuzu to kill characters as easily as you would have him do so.

Rikudou King
April 17, 2010, 12:18 AM
Assumptive. Given Gufuu Suika's swift prep time and success against Kakuzu's "fast" Katon + Fuuton setup and salvo, I'd say Yamato and Naruto have a good thing going. Not really. There's a difference between entering a battle prepared to counter and being in the middle of a battle and having to counter on the fly. In order for them to counter with it again, Yamato would have to realize what Kakuzu is gonna do, Get over to Naruto and interrupt the FRS preparation, Convoke to Naruto to make his Fuuton Rasengan while Yamato made his own water technique and then combine them, All before Kakuzu's combination hit them. I respect Yamato, But him doing all that seems highly unlikely.


Kamui. Near instantaneous warp of Kakuzu's "Final Blast" seems a comfortable back-up plan to me. Kishimoto has demonstrated that Kakashi can use Kamui fast. (Cite Kakashi transposing the explosion of Deidara's self-donating clone [following Neji's discovery of Deidara, after "Team Naruto" tracked down and retrieved Gaara's body].) And if Naruto and Yamato have time to show the two attacks they use to make Gufuu Suika, and spare time to then combine them into GS, which proceeds to counter an elemental combo of Jounin grade attacks in chapter 337, Kakashi has time to release Kamui. The thing is that if Kamui was an option, Why wouldn't Kakashi have used it before to save them, Or at least prepared to use it by switching to his MS. The size of the blast is bigger then Deidara's explosion was and wouldn't be filled with merely air. Not to mention that Kakashi would have to teleport it all before Kamui closed. Though I do question why Kakashi didn't have his MS active anyway.


Ultimately, I feel you are assuming that this is a battle royale between Team Naruto and Kakuzu's puppet parade in which some sort of Kakuzu slews combo shots with break neck haste when Narutoverse's Kakuzu demonstrated that he doesn't, numerous times. In your fighting arena, I can see your direction holding a point, but Kishi has illustrated a Kakuzu who preps combo blasts (e.g., Katon + Fuuton) with a little dialogue or an ounce of suspense to bite on beforehand. Um, If I understand you, Your saying that Kakuzu doesn't have the speed to do what I'm saying that he should have done. But Kakuzu's techniques have been committed and shown to have been fast by several characters. I'm not saying that they would be so fast that they would be undodgable, In fact I stated that it would be likely that several characters would in fact be able to dodge the blast. Yamato definitely, Since he would be the only person nearness full strength. Kakashi, Chouji, And Ino are up in the air because they are tired and were having trouble before. And Naruto is up in the air because he's also tired and would be busy preparing the FRS at that moment. By no means to I think it would be an instant win for Kakuzu, But it definitely would give him some openings to continue attacking.


Be it your seeming aim to make fellow posters aware that Kakuzu had the capacity to beat Naruto yet wasted it, canon brushes with a matter of your opinion, the latter of which presumes Kakuzu forsook his gift of great elemental and combative advantages. It appears he was incompetent to reach your idea of his potential. And if this is truly upsetting... well, at least I would stop short of making a shrine for the character. I think it's easy to see Kakuzu had big guns but spoke too softly in his time with Naruto. Alas. He could do better if Kakuzu and Naruto reiterate and revise their bout, as Kakuzu shows himself keener per his stratagem and quicker in his pace. Kakuzu's capacity was wasted. Kakuzu acknowledge that he would need to keep his distance while attacking, So instead of using his actual long distance techniques to do just that, He instead jumps in and uses his threads to single one out, Even though that failed before. And once he realizes Naruto is using his clones to confuse his position, Instead of attacking them all (Which he was shown capable of), He chooses to continue to focus on getting the "real Naruto". His masks were shown to have their own "minds",Which would have clearly aided him in attacking the multitude of clones, Yet suddenly Kakuzu is on his own using his abilities and have to choose only a single target. Kakuzu had to use all his threads to beat Naruto, Yet earlier he was able to beat Kakashi and co using only a few threads. All these things he have done before, Making them canon, So there's no reason he should have suddenly lost his capacity to fight in the same way as he was doing before. The only reasonable excuse would have been that Kakuzu became overcome with rage and started attacking without thinking. Yet the fact that Kakuzu was planing things out makes this impossible. The same for presuming he began to underestimate Naruto. If such a thing was happening, Then he wouldn't have been thinking how dangerous Naruto was and attempting to keep his distance. So why. Why was it that Kakuzu stop fighting like he was doing earlier against Kakashi? Because the only thing Naruto had to show was his FRS, which for all it's power, Still left Naruto with his crappy fighting skills. Would it have been so impossible that Kishi couldn't have powered Naruto up to around jounin combat level instead of depowering Kakuzu down to an idiot?


So your view seems not a convincing estimate of known Kakuzu's nerve. Though, in my opinion, it would be more practical for that Kakuzu to kill characters as easily as you would have him do so. I'm applying everything that Kakuzu had showcase earlier in his fight, Which assuming that it was the absolute best that he could do, Still makes no sense why he was incapable of doing the same against Naruto.

Xiraiya
April 17, 2010, 06:54 AM
I'm changing the subject because you lot have been arguing about Kakuzu for nearly two weeks and he's really someone I could care less about, the discussion is just... absurd.

I've been wondering lately... what if Sai is an Uchiha? I mean ROOT are mainly kids raised by danzo who were from Konoha clans, yet Sai seemed slightly "special" to him somehow, given Danzo's love of Uchiha powers, I'm beginning to wonder if there was a child Danzo took during the massacre or before.

"But Xiraiya he doesn't have Sharingan" I hear you ask, yes I am aware of his lack of plot defying powers, but that could easily be explained by a few things, such as Danzo sealed the eyes for the time being since an Uchiha in Konoha is just bad news.

The other reason could be Sai's lack of emotion, the Sharingan is awakens and evolves most easily from strong Emotion as we have seen, Sai lacks this and is slowly beginning to find it.

There are other things I did notice as well, Such as Sai's role in Team 7 and the Manga, he basically seems to be Sasuke's replacement, hell Danzo specifically sent Sai to kill Sasuke originally, despite him knowing the strength Uchiha's wield, why would he do that? I mean Sai at base level is good, he was much better than Naruto at the beginning of Shippuden but he wasn't at Sasuke's level either.

Did Danzo think maybe an Uchiha might be able to kill Sasuke? who knows.

darkprince0521
April 17, 2010, 07:14 AM
I'm changing the subject because you lot have been arguing about Kakuzu all week and he's really someone I could care less about.

I've been wondering lately... what if Sai is an Uchiha? I mean ROOT are mainly kids raised by danzo who were from Konoha clans, yet Sai seemed slightly "special" to him somehow, given Danzo's love of Uchiha powers, I'm beginning to wonder if there was a child Danzo took during the massacre or before.

"But Xiraiya he doesn't have Sharingan" I hear you ask, yes I am aware of his lack of plot defying powers, but that could easily be explained by a few things, such as Danzo sealed the eyes for the time being since an Uchiha in Konoha is just bad news.

The other reason could be Sai's lack of emotion, the Sharingan is awakens and evolves most easily from strong Emotion as we have seen, Sai lacks this and is slowly beginning to find it.

There are other things I did notice as well, Such as Sai's role in Team 7 and the Manga, he basically seems to be Sasuke's replacement, hell Danzo specifically sent Sai to kill Sasuke originally, despite him knowing the strength Uchiha's wield, why would he do that? I mean Sai at base level is good, he was much better than Naruto at the beginning of Shippuden but he wasn't at Sasuke's level either.

Did Danzo think maybe an Uchiha might be able to kill Sasuke? who knows.

doesn't the last line contradict your other points? why would Danzo sent Sai if he sealed his eye? an uchiha without sharingan isn't special.

about emotion thing, Danzo trains to not have emotion, but as we see, emotion is all that a sharingan needs, so training Sai to not have emotion will be pointless.

and one more thing, why would Danzo want Sai to not have awakened sharingan? if he can train an uchiha who is loyal to him, he has no reason to seal the sharingan...

Xiraiya
April 17, 2010, 07:33 AM
doesn't the last line contradict your other points? why would Danzo sent Sai if he sealed his eye? an uchiha without sharingan isn't special.

about emotion thing, Danzo trains to not have emotion, but as we see, emotion is all that a sharingan needs, so training Sai to not have emotion will be pointless.

and one more thing, why would Danzo want Sai to not have awakened sharingan? if he can train an uchiha who is loyal to him, he has no reason to seal the sharingan...

I have no idea, it could be he eventually planned for Sai to use his Sharingan, however Uchiha's despite their sharingan are still strong, that's my point, he probably want the kind of genius you only get as an Uchiha but sealed the Sharingan until whenever. I'm not too serious about this theory, I just found the possibility interesting.

darkprince0521
April 17, 2010, 09:27 AM
I have no idea, it could be he eventually planned for Sai to use his Sharingan, however Uchiha's despite their sharingan are still strong, that's my point, he probably want the kind of genius you only get as an Uchiha but sealed the Sharingan until whenever. I'm not too serious about this theory, I just found the possibility interesting.

that theory is interesting alright. i am just stating opposite logics.... :)

uchiha without sharingan might be strong, that's not because of his clan, it is his own. just compare Obito's fighting skill before and after awakening sharingan, you will see how sharingan aids them.

Rikudou King
April 17, 2010, 10:43 AM
"But Xiraiya he doesn't have Sharingan" I hear you ask, yes I am aware of his lack of plot defying powers, but that could easily be explained by a few things, such as Danzo sealed the eyes for the time being since an Uchiha in Konoha is just bad news. Why is that? Sasuke was able to live for several years in Konoha without any trouble and presumably any Uchiha under Danzo's control would also be under his protection from the Elders and Hokage. Unless that person went around the village with their Sharingan active, No one in Konoha would have known that they were an Uchiha unless they fought along side them, Which would have been unlikely considering Roots methods. So Danzo could have had an Uchiha under his command without needing to seal their eyes. But I doubt that it's Sai. He's too old. If he was taken during the massacre, Then he should be recognizable to the Uchihas still living and the other people that were keeping tabs on the Uchihas.

ornis
April 17, 2010, 10:57 AM
Sai could be a Uchiha who lacks the ability to awaken Sharingan. Sharingan is a genetic gem.

Assuming Sai is a Uchiha, he may detour from sharing any mark or sign of his Uchiha heritage, hence his choosing to use ink based attacks, rather than signature Katon jutsu of the Uchiha clan.

On another hand, Sai may choose to suppress his emotions as strongly as possible to inhibit the rise of Sharingan in his eyes, in case he can awaken Sharingan.

Thinking further, Sai may have learned his ink techniques with aid from his Sharingan some time in the past, perhaps after he decided to shut his Sharingan off and throw people off who seek to confirm his true capacity, or just to hide his bloodline ninjutsu and doujutsu.

Still, Sai supposedly had only one brother, dude is said to be no longer alive, so I wonder why Sai speaks of no parents or cousins or other people who would seem significant... then I think that it makes sense to only talk of one relative after that relative is found out, if Sai is trying to hide something. Maybe Sai killed his brother, another possible Uchiha, and gained MS. The theories can grow here.
[hr]

Why is that? Sasuke was able to live for several years in Konoha without any trouble and presumably any Uchiha under Danzo's control would also be under his protection from the Elders and Hokage. Unless that person went around the village with their Sharingan active, No one in Konoha would have known that they were an Uchiha unless they fought along side them, Which would have been unlikely considering Roots methods. So Danzo could have had an Uchiha under his command without needing to seal their eyes. But I doubt that it's Sai. He's too old. If he was taken during the massacre, Then he should be recognizable to the Uchihas still living and the other people that were keeping tabs on the Uchihas.

What if Sai was taken as a Root member in an early screening process of young talent before Sasuke could be aware of him? Sasuke can be oblivious to at least one fellow Uchiha who is kept under wraps at a young age.

jdw
April 17, 2010, 10:59 AM
I think that if Sai were an Uchiha who was capable of awakening sharingan, Danzou would have forced him to awaken it long ago and stolen them for use in Sharingarm, perhaps giving Sai the eyes of some random shinobi from one Root's many secret ops victories.

ornis
April 17, 2010, 11:01 AM
Now, Madara doesn't speak about Sai but then again, does Madara know everything? I think that's a question that is unnecessary.
[hr]

I think that if Sai were an Uchiha who was capable of awakening sharingan, Danzou would have forced him to awaken it long ago and stolen them for use in Sharingarm, perhaps giving Sai the eyes of some random shinobi from one Root's many secret ops victories.

That sounds reasonable. Improves Sai's ability to conceal his heritage as he must or chooses to do so.

Ryr
April 18, 2010, 02:27 AM
That sounds reasonable. Improves Sai's ability to conceal his heritage as he must or chooses to do so.

How is stealing Sai's fictitious sharingan reasonable for him? 'Concealing his heritage' sounds more like an excuse to get another pair of free sharingans, because, ultimately, it was the elders (not the villagers) who hunted the Uchihas. So concealing Sai's heritage from who? The people who already know it anyway?

Rikudou King
April 18, 2010, 05:07 AM
What if Sai was taken as a Root member in an early screening process of young talent before Sasuke could be aware of him? Sasuke can be oblivious to at least one fellow Uchiha who is kept under wraps at a young age. You mean taken when he was still really young? That seems unlikely, For Danzo to just kidnap a child, Especailly one from a clan like the Uchihas. Then again, Orochimaru was able to do basically the same, So clearly they aren't that great with missing persons. That aside, It wouldn't explain how Madara wouldn't know, Seeing as he was apparently spying for years on Konoha.

ornis
April 18, 2010, 08:20 AM
How is stealing Sai's fictitious sharingan reasonable for him? 'Concealing his heritage' sounds more like an excuse to get another pair of free sharingans, because, ultimately, it was the elders (not the villagers) who hunted the Uchihas. So concealing Sai's heritage from who? The people who already know it anyway?

From Madara, Itachi, and the Konoha Military Police Corp. Also anyone else to whom Sai's true blood can stay ambiguous.

Ryr
April 18, 2010, 08:43 AM
From Madara, Itachi, and the Konoha Military Police Corp. Also anyone else to whom Sai's true blood can stay ambiguous.

Right, except Itachi was following the elder's order when he slaughtered his clansmen. So basically the elders are 'protecting' Sai from something which they've instigated in the first place. I guess Sai's fictitious sharingan is really a reasonable payment for his 'protection'.

ornis
April 18, 2010, 09:04 AM
You mean taken when he was still really young? That seems unlikely, For Danzo to just kidnap a child, Especailly one from a clan like the Uchihas. Then again, Orochimaru was able to do basically the same, So clearly they aren't that great with missing persons. That aside, It wouldn't explain how Madara wouldn't know, Seeing as he was apparently spying for years on Konoha.

While Madara spied for years on Konoha he didn't know that Torune was in Root, didn't know that Torune's supposed father, Aburame Shikuro, could have had a Hokage-protecting son before Madara met Aburame Torune during a confrontation with Danzou. And before Danzou unleashes Izanagi, Madara never shares with us a mere idea about Orochimaru's past connection with Danzou, which Danzou discusses, says such a link existed, some time before the Kage summit commences. Those are some canonical reasons to not wonder if Madara knows everything.
[hr]

Right, except Itachi was following the elder's order when he slaughtered his clansmen. So basically the elders are 'protecting' Sai from something which they've instigated in the first place. I guess Sai's fictitious sharingan is really a reasonable payment for his 'protection' :eyeroll.

The elders != Danzou.* Danzou has his purposes and who confirms Danzou's choice to help Hanzou as something that the elders would support? Besides, recall what Danzou's Shisui-eye was good for: mind control. Could be that Danzou coerced the elders to follow or permit his plans. Also, feels convenient that Danzou had a patch over the same spot were his Shisui's Sharingan had recently been, back when Danzou was seen with Hanzou (http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/446/13/).

* != means does not equal

Rikudou King
April 18, 2010, 12:16 PM
While Madara spied for years on Konoha he didn't know that Torune was in Root, didn't know that Torune's supposed father, Aburame Shikuro, could have had a Hokage-protecting son before Madara met Aburame Torune during a confrontation with Danzou. And before Danzou unleashes Izanagi, Madara never shares with us a mere idea about Orochimaru's past connection with Danzou, which Danzou discusses, says such a link existed, some time before the Kage summit commences. Those are some canonical reasons to not wonder if Madara knows everything.
Most of Madara's spying was centered around the Uchihas and those affecting them. So he had no real reason to investigate the other clans in any kind of depth beyond I'm guessing their basic abilities. The same with Danzo's past connections. They weren't any concern to the present course of things. It remains that Madara seem to have focused alot of attention on what the Uchihas were doing, And I'm sure he would have keep an eye on them in order to learn if any possessed the capacity to serve him.


The elders != Danzou.* Danzou has his purposes and who confirms Danzou's choice to help Hanzou as something that the elders would support? Besides, recall what Danzou's Shisui-eye was good for: mind control. Could be that Danzou coerced the elders to follow or permit his plans. Also, feels convenient that Danzou had a patch over the same spot were his Shisui's Sharingan had recently been, back when Danzou was seen with Hanzou (http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/446/13/).

* != means does not equal Danzo couldn't have had Shisui's eye back then, Since Shisui didn't die until years later. And if all he needed to do was just control them, Why not do the same to Sarutobi, Who was the actual bump in his way.

hakuthehedgehog
April 18, 2010, 03:12 PM
Maybe Danzo has a limit for how many people he can manipulate at once, especially since he had just acquired Shisui's eye.

Rikudou King
April 18, 2010, 05:00 PM
Well, Danzo pretty much confirmed that during the summit. But even with that being the case, It's clear that the Uchiha massacre event didn't just happen over one day. So Danzo should still have been capable of taking Sarutobi after controlling the Elders if that was what he was doing.

Oathencrantz
April 18, 2010, 06:06 PM
So like, Pain and Orochimaru have by FAR the best theme songs.

BBB Banana
April 18, 2010, 07:44 PM
WOW suden change of subject XD

But I agree with you that they do have the best theme songs ever.

In fact I'm gonna do a sig with kayne west saying that XD

M3J
April 18, 2010, 10:30 PM
Anyone else miss Uzumaki Naruto rendan? I think I miss Lion Barrage more though. Such simpler times when that simple taijutsu could finish off enemies rather than two chidori and six kirins. T_T

llamapie
April 18, 2010, 11:16 PM
Anyone else miss Uzumaki Naruto rendan? I think I miss Lion Barrage more though. Such simpler times when that simple taijutsu could finish off enemies rather than two chidori and six kirins. T_T

Ya the manga has kinda hit that overpowered point huh? DBZ had the same problem, early on was more about skill then turned into who had the more hax infinite power levels. Well lets hope kishi gets back to basics on some things.

ashher
April 19, 2010, 12:33 AM
When was the time dbz was about skills?! Anyways in Naruto fights so far, big jutsus have never been the last word so far. Lots of other factors come into play. That includes 'improvisation' as well, which gave birth to those taijutsu tricks earlier, but now to other sorts of strategy. Its not that improvisation is gone. Its just that naruto hasn't named his last attack to pain 'flying rasengan chronicle'.

M3J
April 19, 2010, 12:42 AM
But unlike DBZ, Naruto isn't totally repetitive. We do tend to see different jutsu time to time.

Destined_One
April 19, 2010, 07:44 AM
You're seriously confused. Sage chakra doesn't turn you to stone... It is already balanced. Natural Energy, before it is molded into sage chakra is what can turn you to stone. It would be difficult for Naruto to sit still and gather natural energy into samehada like he did with fat pain.

The other pieces you have very good points on!

Fukasaku says That Pain absorbed to much of Naurto's Sage Chakra and turned into a frog statue! (http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/435/005/). Though I couldn't be bothered to check other translations, so you may still be right. However I guess there is always the scenario, where Naruto could purposely create unbalanced chakra, in anticipation of Samehada's absorption. He has seen Kisame use it before.
Though it would be rather anticlimactic if Samehada simply turned to stone. So I am all for Kishimoto, squashing that scenario. Id prefer Naruto to just beat the crap out of him, the good ol way. It would be the perfect way to display the New Kyuubi enhanced Sage Naruto.

White Silver King
April 19, 2010, 05:53 PM
Does anyone know what chapter this zetsu quote is from, I want to add it to my sig: "Well, I’m sorry for not being able to move at the freaking speed of light".

Smokes
April 19, 2010, 06:01 PM
Does anyone know what chapter this zetsu quote is from, I want to add it to my sig: "Well, I’m sorry for not being able to move at the freaking speed of light".

That was in 396 (http://beta.onemanga.com/Naruto/396/07/)

roggie
April 19, 2010, 06:17 PM
Fukasaku says That Pain absorbed to much of Naurto's Sage Chakra and turned into a frog statue! (http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/435/005/). Though I couldn't be bothered to check other translations, so you may still be right. However I guess there is always the scenario, where Naruto could purposely create unbalanced chakra, in anticipation of Samehada's absorption. He has seen Kisame use it before.
Though it would be rather anticlimactic if Samehada simply turned to stone. So I am all for Kishimoto, squashing that scenario. Id prefer Naruto to just beat the crap out of him, the good ol way. It would be the perfect way to display the New Kyuubi enhanced Sage Naruto.

If i'm not mistaken, when naruto was captured by the fat one, he started to absorb natural energy.

Th3 JoK3R J
April 19, 2010, 10:53 PM
I always wondered about Kisame enormous chakra and his Eminence strength especially his distinct shark appearance.

What if he's constantly always in sage mode because of his shark appearance just like how Naruto look when he's in sage mode ,his similar characteristics of a frog and stuff .

What yall think?