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View Full Version : Fantasy Kyouraku Shunsui vs Kaname Tousen



En Yang Ji
February 12, 2010, 08:18 PM
Rules and Conditions:

Scenario 1:

1. Tousen can't use bankai, but can use all of his hollow powers.
2. Shunsui's shikai doesn't negate Kaname's abilities.
3. Shunsui can only use shikai

Scenario 2:

1. Tousen can use bankai and his hollow powers. No resurrescion.
2. Shunsui shikai doesn't negate Kaname's abilities.
3. Shunsui can use bankai when it is shown.



IMO Kaname would win scenario 2, but I'm not sure about the first one. Even though Kaname is more durable with his hollow powers, and has high speed regeneration, he doesn't seem to have many offensive options without his bankai. Also Shunsui is a way more skilled swordsman than Kaname.

In the second scenario, Kaname would probably win by using his hollow powers and bankai or just his ressurection.

savantking
February 12, 2010, 08:57 PM
So...Kaname can use all his most powerful abilities and you restrict what might be one of Shunsui's which is the power restriction? How is that fair?

En Yang Ji
February 12, 2010, 09:01 PM
The reason I made it so Shunsui can't restrict Kaname's abilities, is because it was never proven he could. I would allow Shunsui to use bankai, but we don't know what it does.

That's why I made two scenarios.

Raizen
February 12, 2010, 09:14 PM
Shunsui wins both scenario:
Shunsui plays color games. You can only hit the color the opponent is wearing
Tousen: "um... yellow. wait, what does yellow look like?"
Slash
Tousen dead

shinsengumi
February 12, 2010, 09:15 PM
shunsui cant restrict kaname's abilities? as far as i know kaname's first hollowification is all dressed white . does white despair (http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/384/04/) ring a bell? and his second state is a giant black fly (http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/386/02/)
what was that rule , -if you stand on any shadow you lose the game- was it? how about becoming the shadow itself ? (http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/385/19/) tho it may be debatable as to whether darkness and shadows can be considered the same.

En Yang Ji
February 12, 2010, 09:25 PM
Shunsui wins both scenario:
Shunsui plays color games. You can only hit the color the opponent is wearing
Tousen: "um... yellow. wait, what does yellow look like?"
Slash
Tousen dead

Good point about the color game, I forgot about that :tem. In scenario 1, Kaname would probably lose, if he couldn't kill Shunsui before he could use irooni or last long enough for Shunsui's shikai to get tired of the game.

The second scenario I give to Kaname. There's no way I see Shunsui winning. Although Kaname can't see colors, if he used his bankai Shunsui wouldn't be able to see anything either. Also if, by some chance Shunsui gets a hit on Kaname while in his bankai, it probably would be a non-lethal inaccurate hit. Kaname regeneration abilities will take care of that.

IMO there's is a good chance of Tousen killing Shunsui with his bankai before Shunsui's shikai decides to use Irooni.

Raizen
February 12, 2010, 09:33 PM
Are we having a scenario that gives a chance that Shunsui's zanpaktou won't cooperate? I think that makes it too situational

Given that shunsui can control his sword (which i think he can, I think his sword started getting serious after he got serious when uki fell), anyone within his SP will have to play the game. He only needs a glimpse of tousen to see what he is wearing. Tousen can't tell colors so he can choose as much as he wants or slash at shunsui as much as he wants, it won't hurt shunsui. Furthermore, wouldn't the shadow game be best played under tousen's bankai? The question is, can shunsui see while he is moving in the shadows?

En Yang Ji
February 12, 2010, 10:58 PM
Are we having a scenario that gives a chance that Shunsui's zanpaktou won't cooperate? I think that makes it too situational

Given that shunsui can control his sword (which i think he can, I think his sword started getting serious after he got serious when uki fell), anyone within his SP will have to play the game. He only needs a glimpse of tousen to see what he is wearing. Tousen can't tell colors so he can choose as much as he wants or slash at shunsui as much as he wants, it won't hurt shunsui. Furthermore, wouldn't the shadow game be best played under tousen's bankai? The question is, can shunsui see while he is moving in the shadows?

- The problem is, Shunsui himself said that his zanpakatou chooses the game. It's true that his zanpakatou chose Irooni after Ukitake fell, but that occured way after that happened.

- There can't be any shadows where there is no light.

El Samurai Guapo
February 12, 2010, 11:27 PM
Another thing people seem to forget is that for Shunsui to get inside his opponent's shadow, it seems they have to be distracted. We've seen him do it twice now, and in both cases he did it while his opponent was occupied with others.

Here's another thing to consider, will Kaname be distracted in his resureccion form by his newfound eyesight (as he was when Shuuhei owned him)? I ask this because I for one am a firm believer that Kaname was ridiculously powerful in that form, and it was basically a fluke that he got killed so easily.

I think it his cricket-mode Kaname could have easily wrecked most of the captains, including Shunsui. Unless of course Shunsui's bankai ends up being awesome. We all know that's likely to be the case so.... Shunsui would win, but he'd have to use his bankai.

Raizen
February 12, 2010, 11:48 PM
I don't think the opponent needs to be distracted for the shadow game to work. Starks was hit with it when he landed since he couldn't get caught by a shadow in the air.
Same goes for aizen, he was floating. It wasn't until he was hit by the ice that he cast a shadow

savantking
February 13, 2010, 12:21 AM
Actually now that I think about it Irooni is almost the perfect attack for Tousen...especially if he is using just his mask...He wouldn't have any perception of what is white and black or color...So he he'd be slashing blind...and if it was the wrong color he said it wouldn't cut anything. and just so you know it does limit what color you can cut...

En Yang Ji
February 13, 2010, 12:36 AM
Irooni is very effective against Kaname, but Shunsui may not even be able to kill him. In his ressurecion form Kaname has shown feats on par with Aizen most recent feats. He might just be able to stop Shunsui's swords with his reiastu everytime.

kkck
February 13, 2010, 03:13 PM
Would the game color work against resurreccion tousen though? Technically, he is not wearing clothes so the game should be useless altogether. If the game worked on skin color or anything of the sort shunsui might have just said starrk's skincolor from the start and pawn him (or starrk could have said the same). If the colors are about what the oponent is wearing, then shunsui has trouble. Tousen is resurreccion form showed quite a bit of speed and his destructive power surpased that of komamura by quite a bit. If the boost tousen got from hollowification is of the same nature as that of the hyogoku arrancar I would lean towards him in this fight. Masked tousen rather than released tousen would give shunsui more than enough trouble as it is. He shouldn't know colors but he could easily guess simple things like the color of a haori is white or the color of a shinigami kimono is black (200 years in sereitei should give him that much). On another note, if shunsui says black or white, kanane can deal damage even when it is not his turn so even with just mask he has a good chance of using the game against shunsui). Considering everything, and the wide range of tousen's attacks, I go for him on this one as long as he does not go crazy and fights like he normally does.

savantking
February 13, 2010, 04:53 PM
Would the game color work against resurreccion tousen though? Technically, he is not wearing clothes so the game should be useless altogether. If the game worked on skin color or anything of the sort shunsui might have just said starrk's skincolor from the start and pawn him (or starrk could have said the same). If the colors are about what the oponent is wearing, then shunsui has trouble. Tousen is resurreccion form showed quite a bit of speed and his destructive power surpased that of komamura by quite a bit. If the boost tousen got from hollowification is of the same nature as that of the hyogoku arrancar I would lean towards him in this fight. Masked tousen rather than released tousen would give shunsui more than enough trouble as it is. He shouldn't know colors but he could easily guess simple things like the color of a haori is white or the color of a shinigami kimono is black (200 years in sereitei should give him that much). On another note, if shunsui says black or white, kanane can deal damage even when it is not his turn so even with just mask he has a good chance of using the game against shunsui). Considering everything, and the wide range of tousen's attacks, I go for him on this one as long as he does not go crazy and fights like he normally does.

I doubt Irooni is such a trivial ability such that it only works on clothed individuals. It cuts the color and if anything it would work even better on resurreccion as he has a WHITE mask and BLACK hollow body... which just happen to be the same colors that Kyouraku is wearing. the only difference is Tousen wouldn't really have any comprehension of what is black and what is white....To him...it would be something alien...Which would put him at an EXTREME disadvantage.

kkck
February 13, 2010, 05:02 PM
I doubt Irooni is such a trivial ability such that it only works on clothed individuals. It cuts the color and if anything it would work even better on resurreccion as he has a WHITE mask and BLACK hollow body... which just happen to be the same colors that Kyouraku is wearing. the only difference is Tousen wouldn't really have any comprehension of what is black and what is white....To him...it would be something alien...Which would put him at an EXTREME disadvantage.

Well, shunsui did say the game was about cutting colors the other guy was wearing or a color he-shunsui- was wearing. In that sense, why wouldn't shunsui say his own skincolor to win? It would without a doubt be the color that gives the most damage right? Also, the game would be a extreme disadvantage to tousen but he does have a few things in his favor. Only really deep wounds would affect him considering anything else will be healed instantly. That means that unless shusui goes all out from the start everything is useless against tousen. Personally, I do doubt the game would work on a naked guy though. It would be like playing takaoni against komamura lol (his bankai would likely always be on top) or playing the shadow game against someone who is invisible. I know it is kinda dumb but what else could you expect from a zampakuto that makes games real lol?

El Samurai Guapo
April 29, 2010, 03:08 AM
Between the hax bankai, speed and power boost from mask, and high-speed regeneration, this should be no-brainer.

Inside the dome there are no shadows, and Shunsui will have no idea where Kaname is, and Kaname will be moving ridiculously fast with increased strength too. If by some miracle Shunsui does manage to cut Kaname, he'll just regenerate.

freshseth83
April 29, 2010, 04:59 AM
tousen can't even use bankai at the same time he uses his mask. he's also slow. His reiatsu is nothing compared to shunsui's either. He'd be suppressed in a heart beat. If a Vice Captain can easily beat him with a stab to the back of the head why would a senior captain not be able to beat him? He'd probably slice his head off before he even had the chance to go bankai. This is a no-brainer for Shunsui's win, not Tousen!

Gran Maestro
April 29, 2010, 05:06 AM
I doubt Tousen was stronger than Stark. Shunsui defeated Stark with his shikai. In a worst case scenario Shunsui would curbstomp Tousen with his bankai but even with shikai IMO Shunsui is stronger.

DEATHBOTT
April 29, 2010, 05:44 AM
scenario 1 i give to shunsui with his superior skill i think he would pull a hisagi on tousan.

scenario 2 i give to tousan speed + bankai = win.

poobert
April 29, 2010, 06:33 AM
For scenario 1, Tousen wins. His ressurection is too strong. I know many people think Koma is waste, but his bankai's attack is one of the strongest physical attacks we have seen. Maybe on par or greater than Ken's kendo. Tousen also comes with high speed regeneration and absurdly powerful ranged attacks.

Most of Shunsui's greatest attacks to date have been with other people providing a distraction. That is probably why he is such a good team player. With no one to distract Tousen, all of his attention will be on Shunsui and he won't get a cheap shot to the brain.

For scenario 2, Tousen wins again. With his mask, he is a match for Shikai Shunsui. Plus bankai and Shunsui would be a sitting duck.

-------

Tousen was one of those unfortunate characters that was removed quickly from the story to allow for the plot to move on. He was completely unstoppable until Hisagi stabbed him. Him, along with Barragan would have done a lot more if Kubo had let them. His death was pretty much aaroneiro all over again.

For him to loose in a fair fight, you would need the bankai of a strong captain, like Shunsui/Shinji/Uki etc.

kkck
April 29, 2010, 10:36 AM
One of the things that might be a great issue for kyoraku here is that tousen has HSR. Even if tousen is cut dealing serious damage is extremely hard considering he can just regenerate. Given that tousen did not regenerate his throat, I would think regenerating internal organs is impossible for him but considering his physical prowess and shape in resurreccion I would think reaching the actual internal organs will be hard even with a game.

That said, I really don't think kyoraku can match tousen in physical prowess once he puts on his mask. The boost he receives from mask clearly gave him a considerable boost in speed and power, I would think right then he was already stronger than a released espada in general. In all fairness, tousen is a captain level shinigami who acquired top quality hollow powers, that is without a doubt as brutal as a VL arrancar -I doubt the top 3 were VLs before, the power they showed was not beyond the captain level which makes no sense if they had captain level before turning into arrancar-. Shunsui is strong enough to stand a chance IMO but only if he uses bankai. Without that masked tousen would get the victory here.

Hystzen
April 29, 2010, 10:45 AM
Irooni is very effective against Kaname, but Shunsui may not even be able to kill him. In his ressurecion form Kaname has shown feats on par with Aizen most recent feats. He might just be able to stop Shunsui's swords with his reiastu everytime.

what are these feats would like to see them would help me decided outcome for this at moment not sure on both version of fight..if tousen could pull of a mask and bankai that be so powerfull to remove there senses and run around hacking them to pieces :D

Raizen
April 29, 2010, 11:52 AM
Well, shunsui did say the game was about cutting colors the other guy was wearing or a color he-shunsui- was wearing. In that sense, why wouldn't shunsui say his own skincolor to win? It would without a doubt be the color that gives the most damage right? Also, the game would be a extreme disadvantage to tousen but he does have a few things in his favor. Only really deep wounds would affect him considering anything else will be healed instantly. That means that unless shusui goes all out from the start everything is useless against tousen. Personally, I do doubt the game would work on a naked guy though. It would be like playing takaoni against komamura lol (his bankai would likely always be on top) or playing the shadow game against someone who is invisible. I know it is kinda dumb but what else could you expect from a zampakuto that makes games real lol?
I think u misundertand the color game. It is the color most present. So i could be wearing 2 shirts, a white one on top of a green one. I can call green and do little damage b/c the green is hidden under my white shirt. Green will only do a lot of damage when i take off the white shirt and attack, as shunsui did w/ his robe. That is why saying the skin color in the beginning wouldn't be good.

I don't understand what u mean by koma's bankai always on top? Takaoni is whoever is highest. Shinigamis can fly. So it would be easy for shunsui to get above koma's bankai
[hr]

One of the things that might be a great issue for kyoraku here is that tousen has HSR. Even if tousen is cut dealing serious damage is extremely hard considering he can just regenerate. Given that tousen did not regenerate his throat, I would think regenerating internal organs is impossible for him but considering his physical prowess and shape in resurreccion I would think reaching the actual internal organs will be hard even with a game.

That said, I really don't think kyoraku can match tousen in physical prowess once he puts on his mask. The boost he receives from mask clearly gave him a considerable boost in speed and power, I would think right then he was already stronger than a released espada in general. In all fairness, tousen is a captain level shinigami who acquired top quality hollow powers, that is without a doubt as brutal as a VL arrancar -I doubt the top 3 were VLs before, the power they showed was not beyond the captain level which makes no sense if they had captain level before turning into arrancar-. Shunsui is strong enough to stand a chance IMO but only if he uses bankai. Without that masked tousen would get the victory here.
HSR won't work if his head is cut off. And shunsui is a fighter that has shown that he goes for the death blows. Furthermore, what makes u think tousen can regenerate organs? Ulqui couldn't.

And u still haven't answered. How will tousen win against someone when he can't see what he cut with the color game.

And LOL at someone saying that koma's bankai equal ken's kendo. Ken with one arm is strong enough to take on koma's bankai.

Gran Maestro
April 29, 2010, 11:52 AM
1) the Espada and Vizard are weak, when every character aside from Aizen frequently comments how they're strong

They are weak (or strong) compared to who? These are relative terms and don't mean much by themselves.


2) people say Shunsui is much, much stronger than Stark, when the chapters SHOW that Stark's the type to get lost in thought and slow down during battle, like Love flat out says, not to mention that Stark wasn't even paying attention when Shunsui dealt the finishing blow, or that Shunsui says Starks a pain in the ass, or that all of Shunsui's hits are cheapshots, and before Barragan died and the Vizard arrived, Shunsui couldn't touch Stark, and had to be saved by Ukitake.

If character A defeats character B with shikai and if character A has bankai, it means character A is much stronger than character B, this is simple logic. It's Stark's problem if he didn't pay attention to his opponent during the fight. Frankly I don't believe Stark lost his concentration because it doesn't make sense to assume that Stark returned back to square one after only two minutes, it renders Lilynette's motivation speech useless. Stark managed to cut Shunsui in the color game when he supposedly lost his concentration, IMO there's nothing in the manga that suggests it was the case, it was only a flashback.

And it's unbelievable that people keep ignoring the simple fact that Shunsui's sword was not in the mood when Ukitake decided to help him. Shunsui didn't need help when the sword was in the mood and he duly finished Stark. I guess some of us has to read the dialogues more carefully. :p


among other things.It's like people only pay attention to the final outcome of the fight, and completely ignore all the other details.

On the contrary, thanks to you guys, I analyzed every frame of this fight in detail, you would know if you did read my analysis about what happened. ;)


Shunsui's screwed, Tousens got hollow mask and resurrecion, both of which can overpower Komamura's Bankai.

But how strong is Komamura's bankai? Kenpachi was okay (http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/156/01/) after their brief skirmish (http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/148/18-19/), I didn't see Komamura do something worthwhile with his bankai except defeating a fraccion.


There's one thing Shunsui lacks, and thats physical prowess. Good point with Irooni though, lol. But still, Tousen's got too much going for him. At the very least, its not like Tousen stands no chance lol. As things stand now without us knowing Shunsui's Bankai, its very likely Tousen would win. Can't see how anyone could come to a different conclusion.

Tousen certainly stands a chance, we don't know how strong he really was but IMO he was at most on par with Stark or Barragan and therefore Shunsui has a good chance to defeat him with shikai. And I don't know why you think Shunsui doesn't have physical prowess, did you see anything that suggests he is weak?


These discussions about Shunsui are starting to annoy me......I love Shunsui, but people are giving him way too much praise, to the point where they ignore events that happen in the manga.

People don't ignore events, they analyze them and arrive at a different conclusion. This is a common problem among the members, people can't see the difference between "interpretations" and "facts". If you think you're right, use proper reasoning and try to refute other people's points. When I believe I'm right, I elaborate my points. Otherwise I wouldn't waste my time preparing detailed analyses (perhaps I shouldn't), I would say "I'm right, you're wrong, I read the manga, you don't" and then leave. ;)

kkck
April 29, 2010, 12:04 PM
I think u misundertand the color game. It is the color most present. So i could be wearing 2 shirts, a white one on top of a green one. I can call green and do little damage b/c the green is hidden under my white shirt. Green will only do a lot of damage when i take off the white shirt and attack, as shunsui did w/ his robe. That is why saying the skin color in the beginning wouldn't be good.

I don't understand what u mean by koma's bankai always on top? Takaoni is whoever is highest. Shinigamis can fly. So it would be easy for shunsui to get above koma's bankai
<hr noshade size="1">

HSR won't work if his head is cut off. And shunsui is a fighter that has shown that he goes for the death blows. Furthermore, what makes u think tousen can regenerate organs? Ulqui couldn't.

And u still haven't answered. How will tousen win against someone when he can't see what he cut with the color game.

And LOL at someone saying that koma's bankai equal ken's kendo. Ken with one arm is strong enough to take on koma's bankai.

I don't think you can call colors which are hidden under something... Technically, you'd have to cut the color above it which you can't cut because you did not call it.

Well, komamura's bankai is roughly 100 meters tall, there is nothing to get, the initial advantage komamura has his is obvious. It is true shunsui can fly though. This if of topic, I was just trying to make a point here...

You did not read my post, I did not say tousen could regenerate internal organs, I even gave evidence for the opposite.

Tousen can use resurreccion to see though. Even then, I'd think tousen would be altogether faster than shunsui once the mask is on though, the boost he gets from it is no joke. Provided tousen does not go insane halfway through the fight, I don't think shunsui's shikai will be enough to win this. This is a fight were he'd be screwed without bankai IMHO.

Gran Maestro
April 29, 2010, 12:13 PM
Tousen can use resurreccion to see though. Even then, I'd think tousen would be altogether faster than shunsui once the mask is on though, the boost he gets from it is no joke. Provided tousen does not go insane halfway through the fight, I don't think shunsui's shikai will be enough to win this. This is a fight were he'd be screwed without bankai IMHO.

We didn't see anything that suggests Tousen was very fast though. If anything, Komamura is most probably the slowest captain out there. Stark was fast and Shunsui kept up with him, I don't think Tousen can do much better. And once they start to play the color game, Tousen will have trouble because Tousen doesn't know the colors.

hakuthehedgehog
April 29, 2010, 12:23 PM
This might be wrong, but I read that Shunsui had the mind's eye, which according to Kenpaichi was one of the ways to counter complete blindness, I think it was in one of the databooks that said that.
Also, the dome could be destroyed, and If shunsui calls a colour that is useless, tousen wouldn't be able to cut him.
Seeing as we didn't see Shunsui's bankai, we can't know for sure who would win, but I believe who would win.

Raizen
April 29, 2010, 12:23 PM
I don't think you can call colors which are hidden under something... Technically, you'd have to cut the color above it which you can't cut because you did not call it.

Well, komamura's bankai is roughly 100 meters tall, there is nothing to get, the initial advantage komamura has his is obvious. It is true shunsui can fly though. This if of topic, I was just trying to make a point here...

You did not read my post, I did not say tousen could regenerate internal organs, I even gave evidence for the opposite.

Tousen can use resurreccion to see though. Even then, I'd think tousen would be altogether faster than shunsui once the mask is on though, the boost he gets from it is no joke. Provided tousen does not go insane halfway through the fight, I don't think shunsui's shikai will be enough to win this. This is a fight were he'd be screwed without bankai IMHO.
So the whole hidden color thing, that was my point. So i guess we are on the same page.

Why would shunsui play irooni when he is below his opponent. He would obviously play it when he is above :darn

My bad about teh HSR

I still don't see how fast tousen is. He is fast compared to koma but koma is as slow as they get

kkck
April 29, 2010, 12:33 PM
We didn't see anything that suggests Tousen was very fast though. If anything, Komamura is most probably the slowest captain out there. Stark was fast and Shunsui kept up with him, I don't think Tousen can do much better. And once they start to play the color game, Tousen will have trouble because Tousen doesn't know the colors.

I'd think catching komamura's bankai with his hand is a significant feat of speed, reaction time and humongous raw power. Komamura has already proven his bankai does not lag behind him meaning that it has to move at significantly higher speeds than what komamura himself does move. I would think tousen with mask is already much faster than shunsui though, his boost from hollowification should be in nature no different from what the espada got from shinigamification.
[hr]

So the whole hidden color thing, that was my point. So i guess we are on the same page.

Why would shunsui play irooni when he is below his opponent. He would obviously play it when he is above :darn

My bad about teh HSR

I still don't see how fast tousen is. He is fast compared to koma but koma is as slow as they get

Well, we do disagree significantly on how the games work so I don't think we will agree on this lol.

We have seen adjuca level arrancar get strength, speed and reiatsu comparable to captains just from getting their masks removed. I don't think the boost tousen got from his hollowification is any different from what the espada got.

Gran Maestro
April 29, 2010, 12:41 PM
I'd think catching komamura's bankai with his hand is a significant feat of speed, reaction time and humongous raw power. Komamura has already proven his bankai does not lag behind him meaning that it has to move at significantly higher speeds than what komamura himself does move.

I think catching Komamura's bankai is only a feat of strength, not speed. Komamura's bankai follows his movements and the time for Komamura's bankai to swing his sword is equal to the time for Komamura to swing his sword. Since Komamura is not considerably fast, blocking it in time is not a problem. The main problem is to have the strength to block it rather than dodging it but if you have strength, you don't need to be fast to dodge it.


I would think tousen with mask is already much faster than shunsui though, his boost from hollowification should be in nature no different from what the espada got from shinigamification.

This is my point. Stark was an arrancar (a hybrid) and a fast one at that but he wasn't much faster than Shunsui. Tousen was a low-tier shinigami and he wasn't particularly past, I don't think his hollowification bonus is enough to outspeed Shunsui. On the contrary, I would think his resurreccion was pretty slow and he relied on strength which wouldn't be very useful in a color game.

freshseth83
May 05, 2010, 08:05 PM
Tousen was only permitted to be captain because of his long serving duty of soul society, which is clouded in the first place. Tousen might be able to hold his own against Komamura who has no speed and just Brute strength, but he lost to someone almost the same, Kenpachi. Who only didn't kill Tousen because Komamura saved him. Tousen isn't that fast. Even with mask I doubt he's on Shunsui's speed level, who dodged countless ceros at once. He was in Shikai and beat Stark. With only two games that worked, the shadow game and the color game. Who's to say he doesn't have more games that are just as effective? Kageoni, Irooni, Takaoni, Bushogoma- those are the 4 weve seen so far, who knows how many more. Even if there isn't any more, we have only seen two of these used to effect. The other two have yet to be shown more.

Shunsui outclasses Tousen

kkck
May 06, 2010, 01:06 AM
1.- Komamura and kempachi did not finish their fight. Komamura left before they could do anything to each other.
http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/156/01/

2.- I would argue kempachi has at least decent speed, enough for him not to be on the slow side. he did keep up with noitora and ichigo by the last moments of his fight against him already had enough speed to be considered of the captain level.

I do think kyoraku would be faster than tousen without a mask but I don't see how with it that would be the case. Hollowification made adjuca level hollows have power comparable to captains, isn't logical that a captain level shinigami with hybrid powers of the same quality would be above the captain level? I lean towards resurreccion tousen in this one.

freshseth83
May 07, 2010, 10:22 PM
How can you say that? When weve seen Captain level fighters with mask on still not be able to beat Stark. And there were two of them, who had been captains LONGER than Tousen and were probably just as powerful as Tousen with Mask. If not individually then together they were. And to be honest, Tousen even in resureccion was beaten by a Vice Captain and the Slowest of all captains. Komamura. How is Tousen on Shunsui's level? Even with resureccion he was dumbfounded by his stupid sight. Being caught in the moment against Shunsui is a big no-no.

En Yang Ji
September 25, 2010, 10:22 AM
I changed scenario 2 so Shunsui can use bankai when its shown.

- IMO masked Tousen with shikai would be able to hold his own against Shunsui. His physical capabilities probably are greater, but his combat skills are definitely inferior. I think Tousen's HSR would make it hard for Shunsui to get a win though.

Takahashi
September 25, 2010, 10:32 PM
Shunsui wins both scenario:
Shunsui plays color games. You can only hit the color the opponent is wearing
Tousen: "um... yellow. wait, what does yellow look like?"
Slash
Tousen dead

Funny, logical, flawless argument.

En Yang Ji
September 25, 2010, 10:39 PM
I honestly don't think that would kill a masked Tousen, but even if it would Tousen could either use his resurrection to heal or his bankai to prevent that from happening.

kkck
September 25, 2010, 10:55 PM
I think tousen should be quite aware of at least what colors a shinigami wears. I mean, he was a captain for 100 years and a shinigami for even longer. Even if he can't identify colors himself, he should be quite aware that shinigami wear black kimono's and captains have white haori. Anyways, I don't think shunsui can hold the color game over tousen for the most part. Also, tousen was pretty much able to overpower and trash komamura's bankai, I would think he has more than what it takes to block shunsui's attacks in pretty much the same way so an actual melee fight is out of question.

SaintSheik
September 25, 2010, 10:58 PM
I don't see how Shunsui can win either scenario as Hollowfied Tousen was pretty destructive. As touched on throughout the thread, Shunsui's prowess has either been shown in a group or as part of a duo. 1v1 Tousen using Hollowficiation with the speed, power, and HSR that comes along with it, I don't see what Shunsui could do in either scenario.

Funny, after Tousen's death I never realized how bad Tousen was put aside. Even/especially counting aside his release, Tousen would give a majority of the Captains, as well as the Espada, a run for their money IMHO.Call me crazy but Shunsui defeated Starrk with the color game and Starrk's hollow hole, correct? By that logic, if Shunsui had any article of clothing (sandals?) that were the same tone as Tousen's skin, wouldn't that be a OHKO?

Takahashi
September 26, 2010, 12:45 AM
I think tousen should be quite aware of at least what colors a shinigami wears. I mean, he was a captain for 100 years and a shinigami for even longer. Even if he can't identify colors himself, he should be quite aware that shinigami wear black kimono's and captains have white haori. Anyways, I don't think shunsui can hold the color game over tousen for the most part. Also, tousen was pretty much able to overpower and trash komamura's bankai, I would think he has more than what it takes to block shunsui's attacks in pretty much the same way so an actual melee fight is out of question.

Yes, Tousen trashed a Bankai of a character that is all power. It was impressive for sure, but as we learned, he's easily able to be sneak attacked in that form, something Shunsui is fond of I hear.

Tousen's in no way weak, but the color game isn't simple, Shunsui brilliantly killed Stark by removing his white captain cape, Tousen wouldn't even be able to tell what Shunsui was doing.

Basic knowledge of color would not help Tousen to any significant degree. I disregard HSR simply because the game is either live or die, high risk, high reward. If you are wearing ALL black and call out black, it's basically a OHK, you can't regenerate if you're dead.

El Samurai Guapo
September 26, 2010, 01:04 AM
Tousen's in no way weak, but the color game isn't simple, Shunsui brilliantly killed Stark by removing his white captain cape, Tousen wouldn't even be able to tell what Shunsui was doing.

He didn't just remove the haori, he also threw it in Starrk's face to create an opening for his final slash...something I doubt would have otherwise connected as Starrk seemed to be the quicker of the two.

Color game wouldn't make much difference here IMO. When Shunsui calls out a color he puts himself at equal risk of taking damage. All Kaname has to do is cut Shunsui before he cuts him...and given that hollowfication should put him quite a bit beyond captain level, I don't see that as being difficult.

Besides, are we forgetting that Shunsui himself would be blind against Tousen (hello, he has a bankai remember)? Good luck with the color game when you can't even see your opponent.

Takahashi
September 26, 2010, 01:10 AM
He didn't just remove the haori, he also threw it in Starrk's face to create an opening for his final slash...something I doubt would have otherwise connected as Starrk seemed to be the quicker of the two.

Color game wouldn't make much difference here IMO. When Shunsui calls out a color he puts himself at equal risk of taking damage. All Kaname has to do is cut Shunsui before he cuts him...and given that hollowfication should put him quite a bit beyond captain level, I don't see that as being difficult.

Besides, are we forgetting that Shunsui himself would be blind against Tousen (hello, he has a bankai remember)? Good luck with the color game when you can't even see your opponent.

I don't think Tousen could react quick enough to counterattack if Shunsui is about to slash him. If all you heard was "black" odds are you're a half a second from dying, Tousen would have to dodge, and then counterattack somehow. They also take turns, so what if Tousen calls a color that makes him incredibly vulnerable as well?

It's high risk high reward, but Shunsui has the advantage of both sight, and complete understanding of how his Zanpakuto works.

I could be wrong, but I've always figured Tousen's Bankai would be a tough thing to land on anyone but a cocky Kenpachi.

Komamura was not far from Tousen, yet not caught in it, his Bankai is big, but Shunsui was able to do one Shunpo to get Nanao far away from freaking Yamamoto's insane power in one step. It would not surprise me if he could Shunpo away from those rings when he hears "Bankai".

kkck
September 26, 2010, 01:42 AM
Yes, Tousen trashed a Bankai of a character that is all power. It was impressive for sure, but as we learned, he's easily able to be sneak attacked in that form, something Shunsui is fond of I hear.

Tousen's in no way weak, but the color game isn't simple, Shunsui brilliantly killed Stark by removing his white captain cape, Tousen wouldn't even be able to tell what Shunsui was doing.

Basic knowledge of color would not help Tousen to any significant degree. I disregard HSR simply because the game is either live or die, high risk, high reward. If you are wearing ALL black and call out black, it's basically a OHK, you can't regenerate if you're dead.

Well, under the scenario that tousen does not lose his mind though, does it make a difference for him whether an attack comes from the back? When he did not have his sight, I doubt it actually made a difference for him whether attacks came from the back or front (he was as blind looking to the front as he was looking back). He seems to sense things rather than see them in any form. Even if he has his sight, I doubt that ability simply disappears, I would think he can pretty much do that provided he stays focus. That said, just being cut is not enough IMO. To a great degree it depends where the cut is placed and how the cut is made. A cut made in the arm with the proper angle could make it all the way to tousen's chest but without the proper angle it would simply mutilate him which would result in tousen regenerating. It is by no means easy to kill tousen with his HSR.


As for basic knowledge of colors, I would think it'd help significantly. There are two colors which are a factor here, black and white. Above that, according to the original databook this would be the type of fight which would fit a non insane tousen.
http://kay-willow.livejournal.com/213260.html
As pointed out here, tousen was more of a strategic fighter rather than a power oriented one. Given that he acquired hybrid powers, I would think he has the sheer physical capacity to deal with shunsui along with a more than decent chance of beating shunsui at his own game. I don't think shikai would be nearly enough for shunsui to deal with tousen.

Gran Maestro
September 26, 2010, 02:15 AM
Komamura was not far from Tousen, yet not caught in it, his Bankai is big, but Shunsui was able to do one Shunpo to get Nanao far away from freaking Yamamoto's insane power in one step. It would not surprise me if he could Shunpo away from those rings when he hears "Bankai".

I agree, I would like to see Tousen trap someone who actually tries to stay away from it. In our case, his bankai is pretty useless.

IMO Tousen with just his mask is too easy for Shunsui's shikai. He didn't show any speed feats that puts him above Shunsui, all he has is HSR but Shunsui is a much better swordsman and a lethal hit with the color game makes HSR irrelevant. Tousen doesn't know colors, which makes things even worse for him.

Tousen's Suzumushi Hyakushiki may create some problems but still not enough for victory. LNA, much like Soifon's Jakuho Raikoben, is extremely effective against huge targets but I don't think he has any chance to score a hit on Shunsui who has incredible speed and reflexes which allowed him to dodge instantaneous ceros and machine gun ceros from Stark.

In his resurreccion, Tousen's only chance is to overpower Shunsui with his strength and melee combat is somewhat risky for Shunsui but he can still pull it off considering that he has other moves like Bushogoma which may give him better chances to create an opening for Irooni.

IMO Tousen was stronger than Harribel but weaker than Stark and Barragan. Unfortunately Komamura's role in the story seems to be making others look good, I doubt Tousen would have an easy time against any other captain's bankai.

SaintSheik
September 26, 2010, 02:31 AM
IMO Tousen was stronger than Harribel but weaker than Stark and Barragan. Unfortunately Komamura's role in the story seems to be making others look good, I doubt Tousen would have an easy time against any other captain's bankai.We talking ability wise or overall power? HSR puts him above the majority of Espada. Hell, I don't think Shunsui would've been able to walk off as easy as he did if Starrk had that ability. That and Starrk's defeat was extremely circumstantial, what with a sneak attack and the fact that he didn't even use the wolves but that's another topic altogether.

The main reason I quoted this was due to the comment on Komamara which I agree on entirely. Ironically, the little we know about Sajin revolves around the fact that he is indebted to Yamamoto for saving him and the fact that we didn't see any truth to that back in FKT is pretty sad.

Referencing the semi-recent databook a bit here, the majority of the Espada were VL level according to Kubo. Understanding that the majority of the Espada have been powered up via Hogyoku, I would like to think that a fairly decent captain level shinigami such as Tousen would give Shunsui a tough fight due to his exposure to the Hogyoku. I didn't mention this before but a factor such as kido can play a big part in the bout as well seeing how Tousen has shown more prowess in the field than his opponent.

..That and in another ironic twist, I find it pretty funny that even with an advantage such as Hollowfication that seems to have been utilized far beyond what we've seen by Ichigo (minus the hollow takeover) and the Vaizards, Tousen is still seen at a handicap to due a color game. He just can't win...Where's the justice...:eyeroll

Gran Maestro
September 26, 2010, 02:38 AM
We talking ability wise or overall power? HSR puts him above the majority of Espada. Hell, I don't think Shunsui would've been able to walk off as easy as he did if Starrk had that ability. That and Starrk's defeat was extremely circumstantial, what with a sneak attack and the fact that he didn't even use the wolves but that's another topic altogether.

I think Tousen's HSR is similar to Ulquiorra's, it doesn't protect his internal organs, Tousen's opponent has to hit his head or his torso. In that sense, HSR wouldn't make any difference for Stark because Shunsui finished him with a direct hit to his chest.

Takahashi
September 26, 2010, 04:31 AM
Well, under the scenario that tousen does not lose his mind though, does it make a difference for him whether an attack comes from the back? When he did not have his sight, I doubt it actually made a difference for him whether attacks came from the back or front (he was as blind looking to the front as he was looking back). He seems to sense things rather than see them in any form. Even if he has his sight, I doubt that ability simply disappears, I would think he can pretty much do that provided he stays focus.

That is a great point. The thing is, it wasn't just that Starrk didn't see the sneak attack, he was completely blindsided because the attack was a shadow, how do you sense that?




That said, just being cut is not enough IMO. To a great degree it depends where the cut is placed and how the cut is made. A cut made in the arm with the proper angle could make it all the way to tousen's chest but without the proper angle it would simply mutilate him which would result in tousen regenerating. It is by no means easy to kill tousen with his HSR.

This is pretty much my point though. The game works on a win/lose basis, the amount of damage you can inflict with one color depends on the risk to you, I don't think there is a set damage limit. As far as I could tell, Stark died because Shunsui being completely covered in black meant that he won the game by landing the riskiest attack possible, not that Stark couldn't regenerate.



As for basic knowledge of colors, I would think it'd help significantly. There are two colors which are a factor here, black and white. Above that, according to the original databook this would be the type of fight which would fit a non insane tousen.
http://kay-willow.livejournal.com/213260.html
As pointed out here, tousen was more of a strategic fighter rather than a power oriented one. Given that he acquired hybrid powers, I would think he has the sheer physical capacity to deal with shunsui along with a more than decent chance of beating shunsui at his own game. I don't think shikai would be nearly enough for shunsui to deal with tousen.

There's plenty of strategic fighters that would lose to Shunsui, what do you think Stark was? Out of all of the Espada, he was the only one to actually test and understand powers, he learned Ukitake's power after only 3 attacks, he realized how the color game worked after the first cut. He was consistently quick to catch on, and he fell to the color game.

I don't think Tousen's physical capabilities were all that impressive, he barely cut Koma's giant, and got punished bad for it soon after. His bug form is different, its power was intense, but that's not a factor in this. (The wording of the first post has me somewhat confused, it contradicts itself, so I'm assuming that "resurrection" is not used)

DEATHBOTT
September 26, 2010, 05:13 AM
This is pretty much my point though. The game works on a win/lose basis, the amount of damage you can inflict with one color depends on the risk to you, I don't think there is a set damage limit. As far as I could tell, Stark died because Shunsui being completely covered in black meant that he won the game by landing the riskiest attack possible, not that Stark couldn't regenerate.


i don't think the games do work on a win/lose basis. shunsui said the first person to have their shadow stepped on loses kageoni yet starrk survived it.

AlB
September 26, 2010, 07:00 AM
i don't think the games do work on a win/lose basis. shunsui said the first person to have their shadow stepped on loses kageoni yet starrk survived it.

why all this talk about shadows I dont get it... is it not plainly obvious that shadow attack will be of no use against Shinigami Tousen?

what is necessary for a shadow to exist? light. there's no light in Tousen Bankai so Shunsui cant hide there (smbd here mentioned it, dont remember who) Shunsui is completely screwed against Shinigami Tousen. even his bankai wont help whatever it might be.

as for the hollow tousen - I dont know, depends on Shunsui's bankai. but I dont think his shikai has what it takes to defeat a hollowfied man who Aizen considered worthy to join his ranks

SaintSheik
September 26, 2010, 09:29 AM
Just a comment regarding the shadows: During Ichigo's fight with Dordonii as well as Urahara's fight with Aizen among other examples, we've learned that Aizen's forces are well aware of Soul Society's combatants and their abilities. Seeing how there isn't an exact location for this fight and assuming this fight is like his fight in FKT which took place in the air, Tousen wouldn't have to worry about shadows.

As the story is right now, I don't think we'll be seeing Shunsui's or many other releases anytime soon so we're really working with someone that has literally every advantage save for the Hogyoku itself vs. a Shikai. That and if I recall, Ukitake mentioned that Shunsui's bankai is something that shouldn't be used out in the open where people could see...Isn't that a pass right there for Captain Justice?Question: Without vision, naturally the other senses are heightened. Wouldn't that include the ability to sense others, an advantage that Tousen has depended on his whole life?

Drakk707
September 26, 2010, 09:57 AM
I don't think Tosen is smart enough to figure out Shunsui's shikai abilities before they kill him and even if he does Shunsui still has bankai wich he didn't even needed to use in order to kill the Primera Espada (Who I think is far stronger than Tosen too) so I say there's no doubt Shunsui wins this.

El Samurai Guapo
September 26, 2010, 02:29 PM
why all this talk about shadows I dont get it... is it not plainly obvious that shadow attack will be of no use against Shinigami Tousen?

what is necessary for a shadow to exist? light. there's no light in Tousen Bankai so Shunsui cant hide there (smbd here mentioned it, dont remember who) Shunsui is completely screwed against Shinigami Tousen. even his bankai wont help whatever it might be.

Lol, that's not an issue anymore, now they're saying that Shunsui will just shunpo away before he gets trapped inside Kaname's bankai dome.

Takahashi
September 26, 2010, 03:17 PM
Lol, that's not an issue anymore, now they're saying that Shunsui will just shunpo away before he gets trapped inside Kaname's bankai dome.

Is it really that ridiculous? Like I said, Tousen's Bankai sphere was NOT that big, it was roughly the width of a building, Shunsui can Shunpo MUCH farther than that. Kenpachi didn't want to dodge it, so he got caught, or are you saying that somehow his Bankai is instantaneous, undodgable, and unbeatable?

AlB
September 26, 2010, 04:02 PM
Is it really that ridiculous? Like I said, Tousen's Bankai sphere was NOT that big, it was roughly the width of a building, Shunsui can Shunpo MUCH farther than that. Kenpachi didn't want to dodge it, so he got caught, or are you saying that somehow his Bankai is instantaneous, undodgable, and unbeatable?

if such realistic things ever worked in bleach (cutting smbd's head off instead loudmouthing them, people shunpoing out of attack's way instead of giving their wide-eye expression) then Aizen would have already stabbed every single captain to death in their sleep and get crowned as the freaking ruler of the freaking universe ;)

Takahashi
September 26, 2010, 05:33 PM
if such realistic things ever worked in bleach (cutting smbd's head off instead loudmouthing them, people shunpoing out of attack's way instead of giving their wide-eye expression) then Aizen would have already stabbed every single captain to death in their sleep and get crowned as the freaking ruler of the freaking universe ;)

I'm aware that everything happens with a plot purpose, I thought this fight discussion was more of a logical, take everything into account and see who would probably win thing.

It's still all opinion sure, but we couldn't actually discuss it with fact because these two haven't fought.

Drakk707
September 26, 2010, 05:54 PM
Weeeeeeeell if you see it from another perspective Tosen's bankai is just one big shadow :D, I mean it's a big dark spot...surrounded by light...that sounds like a shadow to me, a huge one, but a shadow afterall. If my theory is correct then going bankai is the worst thing Tosen can attempt :P

DEATHBOTT
September 26, 2010, 06:24 PM
even if shunsui hides in the shadow during tousan's bankai, whats he gonna do if he can't see, hear, smell or taste(lol) anything. and why would he even do that? he will be completly dumbfounded after tousan's bankai starts. he won't even know there is a shadow to hide in. his only way to win is to somehow escape the parameter of the dome, which i don't think he will be able to do while getting attacked or 'overpower' it with his own bankai, if it has a large area effect.
[hr]

why all this talk about shadows I dont get it... is it not plainly obvious that shadow attack will be of no use against Shinigami Tousen?


i was pointing out that the games arn't played like if you lose the game you die. i was useing the shadow game as an example of someone loseing the game and not dieing. don't know why you thought i was saying shunsui could use it against tousan.:blink

AlB
September 27, 2010, 12:42 AM
I'm aware that everything happens with a plot purpose, I thought this fight discussion was more of a logical, take everything into account and see who would probably win thing.

It's still all opinion sure, but we couldn't actually discuss it with fact because these two haven't fought.

I know, but the other day I was arguing on Shunsui vs Shinji thread, and when I said that Shunsui wouldn't be able to accustomed to Sakanade's effects for a while, some of Shunsui's... fans, pointed that since it was bleach, nothing was 100% realistic and an awesome and cool and sexy (:o) guy like Shunsui would have no trouble getting accustomed to fighting Sakanade's effects in less than a second. so you kinda... understand me right? :amuse

Takahashi
September 27, 2010, 01:47 AM
I know, but the other day I was arguing on Shunsui vs Shinji thread, and when I said that Shunsui wouldn't be able to accustomed to Sakanade's effects for a while, some of Shunsui's... fans, pointed that since it was bleach, nothing was 100% realistic and an awesome and cool and sexy (:o) guy like Shunsui would have no trouble getting accustomed to fighting Sakanade's effects in less than a second. so you kinda... understand me right? :amuse

Heh, fair enough. For the record, Shunsui's fans are dead wrong on that :p

Shinji's Shikai is completely hax as well, no way anyone but Godzen would break through it so easily.

Raizen
September 29, 2010, 08:09 PM
why all this talk about shadows I dont get it... is it not plainly obvious that shadow attack will be of no use against Shinigami Tousen?

what is necessary for a shadow to exist? light. there's no light in Tousen Bankai so Shunsui cant hide there (smbd here mentioned it, dont remember who) Shunsui is completely screwed against Shinigami Tousen. even his bankai wont help whatever it might be.

as for the hollow tousen - I dont know, depends on Shunsui's bankai. but I dont think his shikai has what it takes to defeat a hollowfied man who Aizen considered worthy to join his ranks
Shunsui can just shuunpo out of the black sphere. Unless there is some barrier preventing u from escaping the bankai, which there isn't. That bankai was not that big
http://www.mangafox.com/manga/bleach/v17/c146/12.html

Let's compare the black sphere w/ koma's bankai.
http://www.mangafox.com/manga/bleach/v17/c149/3.html

As u can see, the area around tousen's bankai is only about twice a wide as that of koma's bankai. I am sure shunsui can escape that with one shuunpo with relative ease

Shunsui's shadow game lets him hide in a shadow, technically in the darkness. In an area filled with darkness, that would be even better for shunsui no?

And shunsui is someone who goes for the one hit kills. Aiming for the head, etc. Tousen only regenerated his arm. I doubt his regeneration is anywhere near that of WW. I think shunsui w/ shikai is a good match w/ tousen w/ all his powers.

DEATHBOTT
September 30, 2010, 09:33 PM
Shunsui can just shuunpo out of the black sphere. Unless there is some barrier preventing u from escaping the bankai, which there isn't. That bankai was not that big
http://www.mangafox.com/manga/bleach/v17/c146/12.html

Let's compare the black sphere w/ koma's bankai.
http://www.mangafox.com/manga/bleach/v17/c149/3.html

As u can see, the area around tousen's bankai is only about twice a wide as that of koma's bankai. I am sure shunsui can escape that with one shuunpo with relative ease

Shunsui's shadow game lets him hide in a shadow, technically in the darkness. In an area filled with darkness, that would be even better for shunsui no?

And shunsui is someone who goes for the one hit kills. Aiming for the head, etc. Tousen only regenerated his arm. I doubt his regeneration is anywhere near that of WW. I think shunsui w/ shikai is a good match w/ tousen w/ all his powers.

he may beable to shunpo out but i doubt that would be his first reaction. he just lost all his senses apart from touch so i dont think he will be thinking 'Man i have to escape this giant sphere' he will be thinking 'whats going on?' and then he gets his head cut off.

if he hides in the shadow it acomplishes nothing and thats assumeing he even thinks to hide in one since he can't see anything.

Raizen
September 30, 2010, 09:43 PM
Shunsui is not someone who waits to see what his opponent can do. He is too smart for that. He will not let his opponent get their attacks on him. He will attack w/o a moment's waste (ie Starkks). Furthermore, being one of the senior captains, it is more then likely he knows what tousen's bankai can do.

Hiding in the shadow can prevent shunsui from being hit if need be. Also, wouldn't it allow him to know where the reaches of of tousen's bankai is b/c he would know how far he can move within the shadows. Another thing, it takes SP to maintain bankai. He can just chill out until tousen is running on empty (not that shunsui would thought, i am just throwing it out there)

DEATHBOTT
September 30, 2010, 11:20 PM
Shunsui is not someone who waits to see what his opponent can do. He is too smart for that. He will not let his opponent get their attacks on him. He will attack w/o a moment's waste (ie Starkks). Furthermore, being one of the senior captains, it is more then likely he knows what tousen's bankai can do.

Hiding in the shadow can prevent shunsui from being hit if need be. Also, wouldn't it allow him to know where the reaches of of tousen's bankai is b/c he would know how far he can move within the shadows. Another thing, it takes SP to maintain bankai. He can just chill out until tousen is running on empty (not that shunsui would thought, i am just throwing it out there)
first of all i think we should assume that neither know eachothers abilities.

shunsui doesnt wait if he knows what he is up against. here he does not. he is blind and deaf. he may move around but i doubt it will be enough to escape a visard captain.

also your example of starrk only proves my point more. he didnt attack sraight away they played with eachother. only when starrk was distracted or injured did he go for the kill.

takeing all this into account i see shunsui stalling to use his prefered game getting caught in tousans bankai and then either loosing or useing his own bankai which is where kubo comes in to tell us what his bankai is.:p

Raizen
October 01, 2010, 11:22 AM
first of all i think we should assume that neither know eachothers abilities.

shunsui doesnt wait if he knows what he is up against. here he does not. he is blind and deaf. he may move around but i doubt it will be enough to escape a visard captain.

also your example of starrk only proves my point more. he didnt attack sraight away they played with eachother. only when starrk was distracted or injured did he go for the kill.

takeing all this into account i see shunsui stalling to use his prefered game getting caught in tousans bankai and then either loosing or useing his own bankai which is where kubo comes in to tell us what his bankai is.:p
Alright, then they don't know each other's abilities.

Now as for the starkks fight, shunsui was not serious b/c he knew starks was not serious. The moment starks released, shunsui went in for the kill. he got serious. Shunsui and starks personality were similar, so they had a connection, thus they were both hesitant to fight serious. That is not the same for tousen. Once the battle starts, shunsui will go for the kill

As for tousen's bankai. I don't think the effect take place until the whole area is covered in darkness. Giving someone as fast as shunsui plenty of time to escape.

There is no point discussing bankai since we have no idea what shunsui's bankai can do. But I am sure that shunsui's shikai is more than enough. Shunsui is strong and ery calculative. He doesn't make a wasted movement

kkck
October 01, 2010, 04:29 PM
I think people make too little of kanane's bankai. I doubt escaping it would be a simple matter of shunpo. For one thing, shunsui can't perceive anything around him while he is in it. In that sense, if shunsui was to attempt and escape he'd be taking a guess. He has no way of actually defending in case he is intercepted either. Also, I kinda doubt kanane's bankai is not actually solid. I would think shunsui would be in a bit of trouble if he blindly ran into a wall with only his head to stop the hit. Guessing where to attack with his zampakuto is not necessarily the best of ideas and even then we would be talking about a shikai breaking a bankai (not the easiest of things).

That said, I don't think kanane's bankai is much of a factor. IMO he is more than physically capable of matching shunsui's physical capacities with his mask on. He should best him considering everything. And there is still resurreccion which heals him, and by all intents and purposes should greatly enhances his physical capacities and grants him brutally powerful techniques. Provided kanane fights as he normally would shikai shunsui has not even a chance in hell, he'd definitely need bankai.

El Samurai Guapo
October 01, 2010, 04:35 PM
I wonder how much the mask would augment Kaname's shikai. I think saying he would beat Shunsui while sealed might be a stretch because of things like the iro oni game (kage oni sucks BTW don't know why people bring it up so much). Kaname using his shikai might be able to do the trick though, while Bankai would be a definite win for Kaname.

I don't know about ressureccion. If he gets distracted by his eyesight he's dead.

By the way, are we just assuming now that Shunsui can choose to play whichever game he wants because 2 people on this forum keep saying so?

kkck
October 01, 2010, 04:43 PM
At the moment I would question whether kanane even has shikai or bankai. Wouldn't he be a tad too broken if he has shikai, bankai and resurreccion? That in itself is not much of an argument but I do doubt kubo would give him shikai, bankai, and resurrecion. Kanane didn't even want to be a shinigami, IMO it makes much more sense kanane traded his shikai and bankai for resurreccion.

Gran Maestro
October 01, 2010, 06:12 PM
I think people make too little of kanane's bankai. I doubt escaping it would be a simple matter of shunpo.

What if Shunsui escapes before the dome materializes? When Tousen goes bankai, you know what he's going to do. I think it would be kinda hard for Tousen to trap someone who is sufficiently fast.


Guessing where to attack with his zampakuto is not necessarily the best of ideas and even then we would be talking about a shikai breaking a bankai (not the easiest of things).

In a worst case scenario, Shunsui can use Kageoni to hide in the shadows which results in a stalemate. Tousen's bankai provides a huge area of shadow.


IMO he is more than physically capable of matching shunsui's physical capacities with his mask on. He should best him considering everything. And there is still resurreccion which heals him, and by all intents and purposes should greatly enhances his physical capacities and grants him brutally powerful techniques. Provided kanane fights as he normally would shikai shunsui has not even a chance in hell, he'd definitely need bankai.

I don't think I saw anything in the manga that suggests Tousen was faster than Shunsui. Even with Tousen's mask, I would say Shunsui was still faster. Shunsui kept up with Stark who was a speed monster, Tousen's speed was not enough to make short work of a wounded Hisagi.

And in a game of colors, the sword technique is much more important than strength and I don't think Tousen can outdo Shunsui in swordplay. IMO LNA is out of the question against someone who managed to dodge Stark's multiple ceros and instantaneous ceros, Tousen's only chance is to create a position in which his brutal strength in his resurreccion actually matters but I don't think it would be easy. And by the looks of it, I would say Tousen got even slower in his resurreccion which makes things even worse for him.

DEATHBOTT
October 02, 2010, 01:13 AM
shunsui would not hide in the shadows! why would he just assume the area he is in is dark? he is blind, he would not know that the area surrounding him has changed at all.

El Samurai Guapo
October 02, 2010, 02:14 AM
shunsui would not hide in the shadows! why would he just assume the area he is in is dark? he is blind, he would not know that the area surrounding him has changed at all.

Besides, how the hell can he get further inside an area which is already "one giant shadow" (apparently what we're apparently calling Kaname's bankai now)? Doesn't make sense; sounds like people are writing some fanfic here. If Shunsui is already in a shadow (the inside of the dome), then where the f*ck is he gonna hide when he uses kage oni? He's going to hide in a shadow inside of a shadow?:facepalm

Though I guess the new argument is - because deep down everyone knows inside dome he's f*cked - that Shunsui would never be in the dome in the first place cause he'd simply shunpo out of it.

Gran Maestro
October 02, 2010, 03:14 AM
shunsui would not hide in the shadows! why would he just assume the area he is in is dark? he is blind, he would not know that the area surrounding him has changed at all.

Suppose that they put you to sleep and kidnapped you. When you awakened and opened your eyes, you couldn't see anything. What would your first thought be?

a) Oh my god, I'm blind, I'm blind!!!

b) Hmm, it's dark.

kkck
October 02, 2010, 03:24 AM
I don't think shunsui could use KO inside the dome at all. Neither kanane nor shunsui would have a shadow while inside the dome given that it is dark to begin with. Even the color game would be a no go. He would not know where to cut to begin with. Taka oni would also be a problem since shunsui would never be able to tell where kanane is so even if he wins in the game he won't be able to strike kanane. Busho gomma for obvious reasons would not help. I also kinda doubt escaping kanane's bankai would be as simple as to shunpo away. It never is that simple to begin with. I don't think it would be realistic for shunsui to win with shikai alone against either resurreccion or bankai tousen. Kanane's bankai is simply too haxed and shunsui's games would not work in his favor while inside it and resurreccion tousen would be too strong, too fast and have far too much firepower. Enma korugi pretty much nulifies katen kyokotsu shikai, I doubt shunsui would win this fight without his special abilities. He actually has a better chance of hurting resurreccion tousen but that in turn exposes shunsui to the sheer amount of power tousen has. There is no way shunsui can pull anything near what he did against starrk (he does not even have two guys fighting him previously). If you think about it, even tousen going insane would not be that much of an issue in itself. Shunsui would have tousen's undivided attention and he is fighting alone, there is no window for someone to backstab tousen.

DEATHBOTT
October 02, 2010, 03:38 AM
Suppose that they put you to sleep and kidnapped you. When you awakened and opened your eyes, you couldn't see anything. What would your first thought be?

a) Oh my god, I'm blind, I'm blind!!!

b) Hmm, it's dark.

your scenario hasnt caught what actually happens in this fight. also he hasnt woken up, he literally was standing there in the day light then became blind, so no i dont think he would assume he is standing on a shadow.

if you were standing in the daylight and then it just went pitchblack, and your hearing and smell and taste disapeared. what would your first thought be?

a) omg im blind and deaf etc

b) i cant explain the other things but my loss of sight is probabaly due to it being really dark which also means im standing on a shadow.

Gran Maestro
October 02, 2010, 03:50 AM
I don't think shunsui could use KO inside the dome at all. Neither kanane nor shunsui would have a shadow while inside the dome given that it is dark to begin with.

What's "shadow"? It's relative darkness created by an light-obstructing object which happens to be Tousen's bankai.


Even the color game would be a no go. He would not know where to cut to begin with.

He doesn't need to know where to cut. Shunsui can always say a useless color (a color he doesn't have on himself) and protect himself against Tousen's attacks.


I also kinda doubt escaping kanane's bankai would be as simple as to shunpo away. It never is that simple to begin with.

Why? Why can't someone shunpo away? What exactly is the problem? Kenpachi didn't bother to run away, it doesn't mean other guys won't do that.


I don't think it would be realistic for shunsui to win with shikai alone against either resurreccion or bankai tousen. Kanane's bankai is simply too haxed and shunsui's games would not work in his favor while inside it and resurreccion tousen would be too strong, too fast and have far too much firepower.

Kaname's bankai lost to Kenpachi, perhaps it wasn't that hax after all. Put Kenpachi in the same dome against shinigami Tousen and he wins again because he now knows how to fight it.

And I don't think resurreccion Tousen is faster than hollow Tousen, on the contrary he is most likely slower. When you get a huge size increase, you almost always get slower. Which arrancar got bigger and faster in his resurreccion?

Firepower doesn't mean much if your opponent can dodge it. Tousen's firepower LNA never connects because Shunsui is fast. One good hit to Tousen would finish him in a color game and I bet Shunsui can do that. He can get an opportunity for a good hit before Tousen's strength proves useful and seizes him.
[hr]

your scenario hasnt caught what actually happens in this fight. also he hasnt woken up, he literally was standing there in the day light then became blind, so no i dont think he would assume he is standing on a shadow.

if you were standing in the daylight and then it just went pitchblack, and your hearing and smell and taste disapeared. what would your first thought be?

No, my scenario portrays what happens in such a situation. In my scenario, I know there is a reason for my blindness. In your scenario, you completely skip Tousen is using his bankai on myself, it's as if Shunsui is going blind while he is having a drink with his buddy Ukitake. It's perfectly clear that Tousen is doing something that blocks the light.

DEATHBOTT
October 02, 2010, 04:05 AM
No, my scenario portrays what happens in such a situation. In my scenario, I know there is a reason for my blindness. In your scenario, you completely skip Tousen is using his bankai on myself, it's as if Shunsui is going blind while he is having a drink with his buddy Ukitake. It's perfectly clear that Tousen is doing something that blocks the light.

if i woke up and was unable to see, i would think it was dark until told other wise. if i could see and it was daylight, and then sudenly couldnt, i would think i was blind. the first is your scenario, the second is what is happening in this fight.

And what about all of his other senses apart from touch? does just blocking the light do that? tosan isnt blocking the light, he is nulifying shunsui or anyone else in the domes senses. if he was blocking the light then when you grab his sword like kenpachi did, you would still unable to see. however it was shown that kenpachi regained all his senses.
[hr]
i laugh so hard when people think that kenpachi won against tosen purley because of skill. if tosen had gone for the kill straight away kenpachi would have died. since this is a fantasy fight and includes no plot induced stupidity i think we can assume that if tosen gets a hit on shunsui while in his bankai it is going to be a kill shot.

Gran Maestro
October 02, 2010, 04:17 AM
if i woke up and was unable to see, i would think it was dark until told other wise. if i could see and it was daylight, and then sudenly couldnt, i would think i was blind. the first is your scenario, the second is what is happening in this fight.

As I said, you disregard the probable cause of blindness. Shunsui knows he is fighting Tousen, Shunsui knows Tousen is going bankai and doing something, this is the key. Shunsui knows the reason of blindness and he can deduce that Tousen did something that blocks the light, I don't think you need to be Einstein to figure that out. Unless you argue that Shunsui hit his head hard and forgot he was fighting Tousen, drop this argument.


And what about all of his other senses apart from touch? does just blocking the light do that? tosan isnt blocking the light, he is nulifying shunsui or anyone else in the domes senses. if he was blocking the light then when you grab his sword like kenpachi did, you would still unable to see. however it was shown that kenpachi regained all his senses.

It was still dark (http://mangable.com/bleach/chapter-147/18/), but not pitch-black. If you look at Tousen's bankai from outside (http://mangable.com/bleach/chapter-146/12/), you can understand why.
[hr]

i laugh so hard when people think that kenpachi won against tosen purley because of skill. if tosen had gone for the kill straight away kenpachi would have died. since this is a fantasy fight and includes no plot induced stupidity i think we can assume that if tosen gets a hit on shunsui while in his bankai it is going to be a kill shot.

If they fight again, can Tousen go straight for the kill and win? No, he can't. Kenpachi displayed immense skill in that fight, he has unearthly reflexes that let him avoid Tousen's fatal blows, this is skill.

I think we should argue if Tousen's resurreccion is enough to defeat Kenpachi, let alone Shunsui. Kenpachi didn't take off his eyepatch last time, perhaps if he sees Tousen's resurreccion, he removes it and uses kendo and Tousen suffers yet another defeat.

El Samurai Guapo
October 02, 2010, 05:22 AM
So what? This isn't Kenpachi vs. Kaname. It's Shunsui vs. Kaname.

Your "if Ken can do it, Shunsui can do it" logic doesn't fly because it's far from set in stone that Shunsui is superior to Kenpachi. In fact, I'd argue the opposite. Only the people that trump-up Shunsui to be some sort of super captain believe that bull.

Gran Maestro
October 02, 2010, 05:42 AM
ESG, I think you should get over your Shunsui complex, or at least try to make it less apparent. We're trying to make an objective discussion here. ;)

DEATHBOTT
October 02, 2010, 07:52 AM
As I said, you disregard the probable cause of blindness. Shunsui knows he is fighting Tousen, Shunsui knows Tousen is going bankai and doing something, this is the key. Shunsui knows the reason of blindness and he can deduce that Tousen did something that blocks the light, I don't think you need to be Einstein to figure that out. Unless you argue that Shunsui hit his head hard and forgot he was fighting Tousen, drop this argument.



It was still dark (http://mangable.com/bleach/chapter-147/18/), but not pitch-black. If you look at Tousen's bankai from outside (http://mangable.com/bleach/chapter-146/12/), you can understand why.




If they fight again, can Tousen go straight for the kill and win? No, he can't. Kenpachi displayed immense skill in that fight, he has unearthly reflexes that let him avoid Tousen's fatal blows, this is skill.

I think we should argue if Tousen's resurreccion is enough to defeat Kenpachi, let alone Shunsui. Kenpachi didn't take off his eyepatch last time, perhaps if he sees Tousen's resurreccion, he removes it and uses kendo and Tousen suffers yet another defeat.

your disregarding the his other senses being blocked. if the only sesne being blocked was sight, then i would think it would be likely shunsui would assume the light was being blocked somehow. but all his other senses are too, so he is likely to make a different assumption. does blocking out the light cause you to loose your other senses? no. so why would he think that blindness is caused by the lack of light when that explanation doesnt explain his other syptoms. that would be illogical. he is going to think that tosen is some how blocking his senses.

really? did you read my post. i said kenpachi didnt win with skill alone. he won because tosen didnt go for the kill straight up allowing kenpachi to then use his immense skill to win useing the knowlegde he gained from the 1st attack. kenpachi knows how tosen bankai works now, so of couse he could counter in a rematch. but in this fight shunsui doesnt and in my example kenpachi didnt and tosen wasnt stupid. so in those cases tosen would go for the kill straight up while they are unaware.

Grimm6jack
October 02, 2010, 08:34 AM
So what? This isn't Kenpachi vs. Kaname. It's Shunsui vs. Kaname.

Your "if Ken can do it, Shunsui can do it" logic doesn't fly because it's far from set in stone that Shunsui is superior to Kenpachi. In fact, I'd argue the opposite. Only the people that trump-up Shunsui to be some sort of super captain believe that bull.

I highly agree with you, since when Shunsui demonstrated feats to be better than Kenpachi? LoL Kenpachi BY far is the strongest tank in soul society, and is the Captain with more reiatsu also and the one with more strenght and is a HIGHLY capable fighter, altough he is slow he demonstrated to predict FASt opponents movements, him being slow (in fact he is NOT slow but compared to some guys yeah he is) doesn't necessarily proove that he can't predict fast attacks or moves...

In fact I highly believe that Kenpachi is by far stronger than Shunsui.

But let's not get offtopic:

ONTOPIC:

Irooni would work on Tousen? ahahaha would Shunsui be even able to hit tousen? lol Tousen with ONE bare handed GRABBED and crushed Komamura's Bankai Strike and defeated him in one Blow and Komamura is also the Tank type (not as tank as Kenpachi of course).

Unless Shunsui show us a Bankai that HAS TO be awsome, I pretty Much say Tousen even WITHOUT his ressurection (only Vaizard Mask) can DESTROY shunsui... Highly capable fighter (even blind) High speed regeneration, Enhanced speed and strenght and great swordmanship... He himself said: a Vaizard mask is way more powerfull than a BANKAI, and you guys expect Shunsui to beat Tousen while in Shikai? You guys must really think Shunsui is Captain Commander or even close to that... Most of you say this because he defeated the 1st Espada in Shikai but as long as I saw, the 1st Espada was an epic fail and also he was distracted by the 2 Vaizards and Shunsui finded an opening to stab him and weaken him... Shunsui had WAY more than help in that fight...
But even So KANAME stated himself: "Don't compare me with the Espada, I have surpassed all of them, as well as you Shinigami!" He said this to Komamura. And yeah according to this yeah he has surpassed all of them (but I don't believe he is stronger than Ulquiorra in 2nd stage, but well he was talking about from what he knew from the Espadas meaning he was only talking about their 1st release..)


Shunsui, Ukitake, Yamamoto, Unohana, Stark are the most OVERATED characters in bleach ... And from what I have seen unohana is only a Captain of the Weakest Division in SS... Stark was a dissapointment and doesn't like to fight and he is only the 1st Espada because of his Reiatsu. (Well that's how Espadas are ranked, that's why Ulquiorra is 4th in his 1st release and Barragan 2nd and Yammi 0).

That's why most people say stupid things like:

Yamamoto would be able to defeat Aizen EVEN with hogyoukou (this is beyond a joke)
Or Unohana can defeat any Espada (again I say, when did you guys saw her fighting skills?)
Or Ukitake is the 2nd strongest Captain (lol stabbed by a brainless beast and defeated in one shot.... and Also his stamina is the worst and he didn't seem that strong at all)
Or even more berserk things Like: Shunsui can defeat Ulquiorra in 2nd Stage....

Fanboy's... That's why in this thread most say Shunsui because most are so blind that don't see the difference in power between all bleach characters!

Gran Maestro
October 02, 2010, 09:02 AM
your disregarding the his other senses being blocked. if the only sesne being blocked was sight, then i would think it would be likely shunsui would assume the light was being blocked somehow. but all his other senses are too, so he is likely to make a different assumption. does blocking out the light cause you to loose your other senses? no. so why would he think that blindness is caused by the lack of light when that explanation doesnt explain his other syptoms. that would be illogical. he is going to think that tosen is some how blocking his senses.

We're going off-topic with the Kenpachi part, so I'll drop it. Ok, let's assume that Shunsui suffers from fan induced stupidity and didn't run away from Tousen's bankai rings. (See, all this discussion is useless because Shunsui won't get caught in the first place.) Now, what would someone in his right mind think if many rings did surround him and cover the area (http://mangable.com/bleach/chapter-146/09/) and then if he couldn't see or hear anything? That's right, "my opponent trapped me in a cage/prison/dome which blocks light and sound." It's crystal clear.

kkck
October 02, 2010, 11:49 AM
What's "shadow"? It's relative darkness created by an light-obstructing object which happens to be Tousen's bankai.

True but kanane himself would not have a shadow within the dome. There would be no light for either shunsui or kanane to have a proper shadow. I doubt darkness would enable shunsui or kanane to attack just any area and damage the enemy through the game.


He doesn't need to know where to cut. Shunsui can always say a useless color (a color he doesn't have on himself) and protect himself against Tousen's attacks.
Of course he needs to know where to cut. If he can't attack there is no way he can deal damage and win the fight. Saying a useless color would not help him in the least, he would be protected during his turn however once his turn ends he is essentially screwed.



Why? Why can't someone shunpo away? What exactly is the problem? Kenpachi didn't bother to run away, it doesn't mean other guys won't do that.
He could try to shunpo away but that in itself does not mean he will be able to escape. It'd also be pretty stupid if the fight reaches a stalemate because kanane is inside enma korugi while shunsui is outside incapable of doing anything. We also don't know how far shunsui can travel with shunpo. Yamamoto says it is a large distance but we have no idea how much is a large distance for shunpo.



Kaname's bankai lost to Kenpachi, perhaps it wasn't that hax after all. Put Kenpachi in the same dome against shinigami Tousen and he wins again because he now knows how to fight it.
No clue how kempachi managed to ultimately detect tousen however that does not mean shunsui can do it. It is an entirely different case.

And I don't think resurreccion Tousen is faster than hollow Tousen, on the contrary he is most likely slower. When you get a huge size increase, you almost always get slower. Which arrancar got bigger and faster in his resurreccion?

Firepower doesn't mean much if your opponent can dodge it. Tousen's firepower LNA never connects because Shunsui is fast. One good hit to Tousen would finish him in a color game and I bet Shunsui can do that. He can get an opportunity for a good hit before Tousen's strength proves useful and seizes him.

I personally doubt that would be the case. That said, this is not precisely DBZ nor the situation was that kanane turned into a fat elephant like that other arrancar. Kanane did get bigger however I doubt he got slower in the least. Even if he did get slower, I would think he'd still be faster than his original shinigami form.

Not so sure about shunsui dodging LNA so easily. The attack seems to be a shockwave of sorts, so I doubt it can be seen (other than for artistics purposes for the reader). It also covers a fairly large area (as large as komamura's bankai) and it should have decent speed on its own. I doubt it would be so easy for shunsui to dodge.

Gran Maestro
October 02, 2010, 06:20 PM
True but kanane himself would not have a shadow within the dome. There would be no light for either shunsui or kanane to have a proper shadow. I doubt darkness would enable shunsui or kanane to attack just any area and damage the enemy through the game.

Granted, we don't have perfect knowledge about the mechanics of the shadow game but the data in hand suggests that Shunsui can hide in the shadows and since the dome area is a one big shadow, I guess Shunsui can hide in any part of the dome and strike any other part of the dome but since he doesn't have vision, trying to attack would be pointless and the best strategy would be to stay in defense.


Of course he needs to know where to cut. If he can't attack there is no way he can deal damage and win the fight. Saying a useless color would not help him in the least, he would be protected during his turn however once his turn ends he is essentially screwed.

Not necessarily, a useless color buys time which Shunsui may use to figure out what's going on and how he will counter Tousen's attacks. Perhaps, in the meantime, he can use a strong hadou with incantation to rip open dome's walls.


He could try to shunpo away but that in itself does not mean he will be able to escape. It'd also be pretty stupid if the fight reaches a stalemate because kanane is inside enma korugi while shunsui is outside incapable of doing anything. We also don't know how far shunsui can travel with shunpo. Yamamoto says it is a large distance but we have no idea how much is a large distance for shunpo.

Komamura simply jumped out of Tousen's way (http://mangable.com/bleach/chapter-146/06/), Shunsui can certainly go much further than Tousen's reach in one step, it's not an issue at all. If Tousen can't trap Shunsui, he is at a disadvantage because if he keeps going bankai, he'll be spending much more reiryoku than Shunsui and eventually lose.


No clue how kempachi managed to ultimately detect tousen however that does not mean shunsui can do it. It is an entirely different case.

Nevertheless possible. Kenpachi didn't use a unique shikai ability or whatnot.


I personally doubt that would be the case. That said, this is not precisely DBZ nor the situation was that kanane turned into a fat elephant like that other arrancar. Kanane did get bigger however I doubt he got slower in the least. Even if he did get slower, I would think he'd still be faster than his original shinigami form.

Tousen was not a fat elephant but he was a fat insect. Look at this picture (http://mangable.com/bleach/chapter-386/18/) and see how big he had become compared to an ordinary sized human.

I've never read DBZ and I have no idea what happened in it but in Bleach, if you get bigger, you get slower, this is one of the basic concepts. For example, the fastest espada Zommari was practically immobile in his resurreccion. There are lots of examples like Szayel and Aaroniero, not only Nirgge, the fat elephant guy. A resurreccion doesn't always mean a faster body.


Not so sure about shunsui dodging LNA so easily. The attack seems to be a shockwave of sorts, so I doubt it can be seen (other than for artistics purposes for the reader). It also covers a fairly large area (as large as komamura's bankai) and it should have decent speed on its own. I doubt it would be so easy for shunsui to dodge.

The Japanese name for LNA is "The Nine Phase Rings of Murder" and the attack has exactly nine rings (http://mangable.com/bleach/chapter-386/12/). (I know Spanish name is different, so please don't try to explain what LNA means in Spanish.) Therefore the attack can be seen and furthermore Tousen draws circles in air (http://mangable.com/bleach/chapter-386/11/) to prepare the attack which makes it kinda hard to successfully use against a small and fast target.

Raizen
October 04, 2010, 09:03 PM
shunsui would not hide in the shadows! why would he just assume the area he is in is dark? he is blind, he would not know that the area surrounding him has changed at all.
B/c all he can see is darkness... :blink
[hr]

i laugh so hard when people think that kenpachi won against tosen purley because of skill. if tosen had gone for the kill straight away kenpachi would have died. since this is a fantasy fight and includes no plot induced stupidity i think we can assume that if tosen gets a hit on shunsui while in his bankai it is going to be a kill shot.
And I find it funny when people twist manga facts and evidence to help aid their arguments w/o a single care for what has been stated in the manga. Did tousen say "oh I could have killed him if i tried to slash his throat at the beginning.." or "I was taking it easy on him... blah blah blah". No he did not

Kubo is writing the story, not you!! Accept facts and move on.

AlB
October 05, 2010, 05:51 AM
Did tousen say "oh I could have killed him if i tried to slash his throat at the beginning.." or "I was taking it easy on him... blah blah blah". No he did not

Kubo is writing the story, not you!! Accept facts and move on.

should I accept the fact that Kubo downgraded Tousen's intelligence by 101% and made him explain properties to a blindened and deafened man?
aren't we talking about Tousen who wasn't so stupid in TBTP against Kensei?
[hr]



Fanboy's... That's why in this thread most say Shunsui because most are so blind that don't see the difference in power between all bleach characters!

awwww, come on... you'll hurt Raizen's feelings :amuse

Raizen
October 05, 2010, 08:00 PM
should I accept the fact that Kubo downgraded Tousen's intelligence by 101% and made him explain properties to a blindened and deafened man?
aren't we talking about Tousen who wasn't so stupid in TBTP against Kensei?
<hr noshade size="1">

awwww, come on... you'll hurt Raizen's feelings :amuse
U call it downgrade, i call it the truth. Tousen in TBTP attacked th vizards by slashing at their backs and took them down. Against Ken he went for the neck and failed. So if anything, he got smarter. All u are doing is making pathetic excuses that are not backed up by manga facts

Yes, i am a shunsui fan. But i try not to let that affect my judgement. Nothing tousen has shown was anything impressive to the point where i think he can take down shunsui. People are so into flashy attacks are big bang and booms that they let it guide their judgments in fights. So when u can make a valid and mature argument, then u can come back

AlB
October 06, 2010, 12:30 PM
U call it downgrade, i call it the truth. Tousen in TBTP attacked th vizards by slashing at their backs and took them down. Against Ken he went for the neck and failed. So if anything, he got smarter. All u are doing is making pathetic excuses that are not backed up by manga facts

how he got smarter? from slashing opponents immediately after enveloping them in his bankai (vizards) to explaining his bankai abilities to a deafened and blind opponent (ken) for plot purposes?


Yes, i am a shunsui fan. But i try not to let that affect my judgement. Nothing tousen has shown was anything impressive to the point where i think he can take down shunsui. People are so into flashy attacks are big bang and booms that they let it guide their judgments in fights. So when u can make a valid and mature argument, then u can come back

on the other hand I am not Tousen's fan at all. actually his character is even worse than Aizen's. at least Aizen is honest about what he is doing while Tousen is a hipocritical b*tch. he calls his lust for revenge justice...

and I suggest you keep your tone down, otherwise your posts might gradually fall under "bashing/insulting" category

Raizen
October 06, 2010, 09:28 PM
how he got smarter? from slashing opponents immediately after enveloping them in his bankai (vizards) to explaining his bankai abilities to a deafened and blind opponent (ken) for plot purposes?



on the other hand I am not Tousen's fan at all. actually his character is even worse than Aizen's. at least Aizen is honest about what he is doing while Tousen is a hipocritical b*tch. he calls his lust for revenge justice...

and I suggest you keep your tone down, otherwise your posts might gradually fall under "bashing/insulting" category
What makes you think that tousen was not going for the killing blow on kenpachi right from the start? Can you prove that tousen could kill ken even if the attack hit? But that is off topic.

With the skills tousen has displayed, I don't see him taking down shunsui.

DEATHBOTT
October 07, 2010, 12:07 AM
B/c all he can see is darkness... :blink



And I find it funny when people twist manga facts and evidence to help aid their arguments w/o a single care for what has been stated in the manga. Did tousen say "oh I could have killed him if i tried to slash his throat at the beginning.." or "I was taking it easy on him... blah blah blah". No he did not

Kubo is writing the story, not you!! Accept facts and move on.
lol blindness doesnt equal darkness it equals blindness. ;) light is still there for blind people they just can't receive it.

it was light before he went blind. why would he have any reason to assume it has changed when the only difference he can sense is he is blind and deaf.

lol how hard is it to cut off a blind deaf guys head? im just useing simple logic. if a guy can't sense an attack comeing then he cant dodge meaning the only thing that can bring about your failure is yourself. you can go ahead and think for some reason a captain class shimigami cant cut a stationary guys head off but im going to go with he didnt try for plot reasons.

AlB
October 07, 2010, 05:32 AM
What makes you think that tousen was not going for the killing blow on kenpachi right from the start?

what makes me think that huh? well lets see... perhaps all the talking and explanations he was doing?

http://www.ourmanga.com/Bleach/146/%5Bmanga-rain%5Dbleach-ch146-12 and couple of pages after that
see this? if instead of talking he just had taken a swing at his ken's the battle would be over.

well I'll say that nothing I have seen from Shunsui has made me think that he will be able to take down Tousen. what are shunsui's feats? getting cero in his ass? or defeating stark without latter's primary and most deadly weapon?

you want to know Tousen's feats?

he achieved bankai when he was a 5th seat
he took down his captain before the latter even managed to say "mama"
he was owning komamura's bankai without even going into ressurection
he was named commander of Arrancar army, ranking him higher than Yammy, Stark and Barragan
he was a guy that Aizen deemed worthy to serve for him, and Aizen dowsn't tolerate weaklings.

[hr]

Can you prove that tousen could kill ken even if the attack hit?

as for this question... for your own sake lets just pretend you never asked... :eyeroll

hiken no ace
March 14, 2011, 01:57 PM
what makes me think that huh? well lets see... perhaps all the talking and explanations he was doing?

http://www.ourmanga.com/Bleach/146/%5Bmanga-rain%5Dbleach-ch146-12 and couple of pages after that
see this? if instead of talking he just had taken a swing at his ken's the battle would be over.

well I'll say that nothing I have seen from Shunsui has made me think that he will be able to take down Tousen. what are shunsui's feats? getting cero in his ass? or defeating stark without latter's primary and most deadly weapon?

you want to know Tousen's feats?

he achieved bankai when he was a 5th seat
he took down his captain before the latter even managed to say "mama"
he was owning komamura's bankai without even going into ressurection
he was named commander of Arrancar army, ranking him higher than Yammy, Stark and Barragan
he was a guy that Aizen deemed worthy to serve for him, and Aizen dowsn't tolerate weaklings.

<hr noshade size="1">


as for this question... for your own sake lets just pretend you never asked... :eyeroll

first things first
lets take it down a notch
Yama ji is above all thats why Aizen comes up with the plan to conseal jakka like the little girl he really is.
shunsui and jushiru are the only ones who follow Yama ji because:
lets assume that Tousen is a little stronger than Toshiru cause Hitsugaya is the boy wonder after all
Shunsui lets Stark know tha Toshiru can catch up with him in a hundred years!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! 100 years
and last but not least if you assume that the difference between shikai and bankai of every character is more or less tha same and because the hollowfication of tousen is almost as strong as the lycans of Lillinete tousen can barely beat Shunsui s' shikai.

i really don't understand where is the question
what Tousen
i only have to say two words
Kare Kazeshini