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Captain Class
February 28, 2010, 08:00 PM
I'm growing tired of this; over at one manga forums all the yama fanboys are creaming their tighty wightys over Aizen's latest comment; I'm sorry for making 2 threads in 2 days but I just want manga helpers input on this.

I believe Yama is stronger physically than Aizen but Aizen would still manage a victory; they are both afraid of each other to the point where Aizen won't even fight him fairly and Yama will take his own life in the first move just to take him down.

Battle conditions

The battle is pure; they are in a huge dome room; about 500 mile radius; and 500 miles upward; they go all out and use only themselves; and their zanpakuto to kill each other.

I understand that being commanders of armies is a huge part of their strength; but for now I'm going to exclude that.

My personal opinion?

Offense: Yama
Defense: Yama
Intelligence: Aizen
Tactics: Aizen
Zanpaktu: Aizen
Speed: Draw
Reatsu: Yama

I personally think Aizen would win in this scenario; albeit it will be by a razor thin margin.

kkck
February 28, 2010, 09:20 PM
Well, in general the deal seems to be about how zampakuto would match up against each other. Ryujin Jakka is a purely offensive zampakuto back up by yama's unbelievable reaitsu. Naturally this makes RJ the strongest zampakuto. On the other hand we have KS. It has one of the most hax abilities we have seen so far, an illusion so overwhelmingly powerful that there simply is no known way to break out of it and we have no reason whatsoever to believe it can be broken. Now, the only flaw KS has it that other than the illusion it does not add in any way to aizen's power. In that sense, in a direct confrontation yama would be the more powerful. Then again, aizen's zampakuto is not meant to aid in direct confrontation but rather it adds significantly to the tactical aspect of battle. The way I see it, even if aizen has the stronger reiatsu, yama just by having a vaguely comparable one would have the stronger offensive power simply due to having a zampakuto whose main characteristic is pure offensive power.

Now, we have the other aspects of battle. In terms of experience yamamoto would obviously be the superior one. Then again, aizen has been around for quite some time and him himself also has quite a bit of it. Even if yama has been around for more time, I doubt it is something he could hold up against aizen simply due to him being centuries old.

In terms of physical capacities I would think aizen's youth to a higher standard than yamamoto's. This is hard to judge though considering we have seen little which would allow us to compare. We do know aizen is faster than resurreccion ulquiorra though considering ichigo could not react at all to aizen while he could at least use a GT against ulquiorra to save his life. Aizen also fought against hordes of captains and even kyoraku proved to be too slow to deal with him. Kyoraku along with ukitake though, did seem to be capable of keeping up with yama. We have very little grounds to compare this two but considering yamamoto seemed to fight to a stalemate kyoraku and ukitake while aizen literally owned 5 captains (including kyoraku) without actually making an effort I would say aizen has the edge here.

Then we have reiatsu. We have seen a few feats of the both of them so it is also hard to judge. From yamamoto we saw huge colums of fire, scaring ukitake to death and make nanao fall unconscious from just a look. On aizen we have seen a few more feats. We have seen the guy take on komamura shikai barehanded twice, a kido with a third of it's intended power -hence a failure- utterly trash komamura, grimmjow was forced to his knees on reiatsu alone -greatest reiatsu feat shown in the manga so far considering grimmjow in fact does posses captain level reiatsu- and the supression of soifon's shikai technique on reiatsu alone (also impressive due to it being a captain level attack with kido-ish properties). Given this, I do think yamamoto has considerably greater offensive power due to his zampakuto but overall IMHO aizen has the stronger reiatsu. I do think their reiatsu are comparable to some extent.

Seeing yamamoto and how far aizen went in order to fight him also reminded me of this.
http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/390/18/
Gin's comment suggest people with enough power could hope to fight aizen even in spite of the illusion. In that sense, even if yama is just as subjected to the illusion as anyone, he could oppose aizen through sheer raw power.

Bromamura
March 01, 2010, 02:19 AM
Aizen settled the debate himself. There's really no fanboyism in it at all, just manga fact, that's all there is to it. Whatever translation you read, Aizen flat out admitted that in a straight fight, (that's KS included) Yama is the stronger/more powerful, and he means it in a genralised way, hence overall, no one in their right mind would let Aizen go on in a long winded speech along the line of "In a fair fight, your four areas of shinigami combat combined with your zanpakuto is superior to my four areas of shinigami combat combined with the power of my zanpakuto, and thus makes you the stronger fighter” when the exact same meaning could be expressed with a few simple words. I also think Gran Maestro gave a pretty good explanation of why the Captain Commander considered suicide to be the most secure option in the discussion thread. All Kubo wanted to do is to convey his point that Yama>Aizen, and the best way to do this other than clarifying it in an interview is through his character's own statements, that's how authors get their points across. I don't get what the fuss is all about, didn’t see anyone complaining when Aizen claimed he was stronger than the Espada combined. Aizen's own statement + the fact he created Wonderweiss specifically to aid him is enough for me, what's even more impressive is that it came from the mouth of the most arrogant character in the entire manga.

Captain Class
March 01, 2010, 05:14 AM
No it was Kubo's way of pleasing his fan base; he does not have the imagination to come up with a way to beat KS so in live action he would nerf it's abilities in order for yama to win.

Bromamura
March 01, 2010, 05:45 AM
Yama has no fanbase, it's Aizen who's got more fans in Japan. Kubo is just writing to express how strong he believe his characters truely are, he didn't nerf anything. He made Aizen say Yama is stronger, therefore the old man is stonger. If people want to ignore manga fact then its their own problem, the argument against it however is just becoming more and more ridiculous. The only one who got nerfed is Yama via Wonderweiss so this manga could still obey shounen law where the main antagonist is only ultimately defeated by the protagonist.

Gran Maestro
March 01, 2010, 07:04 AM
Well, in general the deal seems to be about how zampakuto would match up against each other. Ryujin Jakka is a purely offensive zampakuto back up by yama's unbelievable reaitsu. Naturally this makes RJ the strongest zampakuto.

And by that logic, KS is the weakest zanpakuto because it adds nothing to Aizen's attack power. What Aizen says is that RJ is the strongest zanpakuto, its abilities trump the abilities of other zanpakuto including his own KS. You're (most probably intentionally) misreading the statement, if KS's abilities could trump RJ's, Aizen would never have said that RJ is the strongest. It's not only a matter of offensive strength, it's overall usefulness. Aizen says Yamamoto is more powerful than him in a straight fight.


Now, the only flaw KS has it that other than the illusion it does not add in any way to aizen's power. In that sense, in a direct confrontation yama would be the more powerful.

So if Aizen did finish his sentence, he would say "You are probably more powerful than me in a fight, therefore I can most probably defeat you in a fight." Very interesting.


Then again, aizen's zampakuto is not meant to aid in direct confrontation but rather it adds significantly to the tactical aspect of battle. The way I see it, even if aizen has the stronger reiatsu, yama just by having a vaguely comparable one would have the stronger offensive power simply due to having a zampakuto whose main characteristic is pure offensive power.

Yama made Aizen bleed by squeezing his arm, it's safe to assume that the strongest one has the most reiatsu.


Aizen also fought against hordes of captains and even kyoraku proved to be too slow to deal with him. Kyoraku along with ukitake though, did seem to be capable of keeping up with yama. We have very little grounds to compare this two but considering yamamoto seemed to fight to a stalemate kyoraku and ukitake while aizen literally owned 5 captains (including kyoraku) without actually making an effort I would say aizen has the edge here.

We don't know the details of Yama vs Shunsui & Ukitake fight and I think none of them were using their strongest techniques that could gravely injure and possibly kill the other. Kubo (by using Nanao and Ukitake) made it clear that Shunsui & Ukitake didn't stand a chance against Yama and they would eventually lose.

Keep in mind that Shunsui and Ukitake have been friends for a very long time and they know how to fight as a team. IMO Shunsui+Ukitake is much better than Shunsui+Shinji, not because Shinji is vastly inferior to Ukitake but Shunsui and Ukitake know each other very well.

Aizen didn't outperform these captains in swordplay, he provoked the (mentally) weakest link and thus created an opening to distract and finish them. Kubo emphasized the opening, otherwise Shunsui and the other captains would be long gone.

Long story short, Aizen said "He created WW to challenge the strongest by nullifying his greatest aspect." You can disagree with Kubo all day long but sorry, it doesn't matter. ;)

DARK
March 01, 2010, 07:14 AM
Yama has no fanbase, it's Aizen who's got more fans in Japan.

If that is your logic, then Hitsugaya should have pwned Aizen. HE's the most popular Bleach character in Japan and possibly worldwide for a good 2-3 polls now.
Meanwhile, when was the last time that Aizen actually made it to the Top 10 list?

Bromamura
March 01, 2010, 07:41 AM
If that is your logic, then Hitsugaya should have pwned Aizen. HE's the most popular Bleach character in Japan and posssibly worldwide for a good 2-3 polls now.
Yet he doesn't, that just proves my point Kubo isn't willing to sacrifice his own beliefs in the power level of his characters just for the sake of fanbase. It's got nothing to do with who's got more fans, it's about who Kubo chooses be the strongest character in this manga, in this case it's Yamamoto.


Meanwhile, when was the last time that Aizen actually made it to the Top 10 list?
Yama never made it into the Top 50. The person I responded to was trying to make it sound as if Kubo is attempting to appease Yama's fanbase when in reality he hardly has any. Unfortunately what you said have got nothing to do with what I said.

exacta
March 01, 2010, 12:10 PM
Theres no point to this debate. Aizen said in a straightforward fight, he'd lose. Plus, if it wasn't for Wonderweiss, Aizen would be toast right now.

What I'm more interested in is if Wonderweiss can defeat Yamamoto. Can't wait to finally see what Wonderweiss and Yamamoto can do this week, although Wonderweiss looks very odd. We've seen little of the potential of either, so we could be in for a great fight.

Primecut
March 01, 2010, 12:19 PM
Yama was suiciding to beat Aizen though. I think Aizen meant he would lose as in die due to the suicide attack Yama was going to do. Technically, Aizen would die even though we'd call it a tie if both fighters go down. Read the scans when Yama grabbed Aizen initially however, it was almost like Aizen didnt care and think Yama could do anything. Think about this one guys. Only when Yamamoto did the suicide attempt against Aizen did he admit that Yama would beat him. Aizen is probably saying that so Yama tries fighting and doesnt resort to some crazy suicidal attack. Dont forget Aizen is a master manipulator. He'll tell opponents the wrong techniques f it helps him.

Gran Maestro
March 01, 2010, 12:34 PM
Yama was suiciding to beat Aizen though. I think Aizen meant he would lose as in die due to the suicide attack Yama was going to do.

See this post (http://mangahelpers.com/forum/showthread.php?p=1820623#post1820623) for the explanation of suicide attack. What you say is "It's either Aizen wins or it's a draw (both die)", on the contrary Aizen referred to Yamamoto as the strongest and he said Yamamoto could probably defeat him in a straight fight.

vizardichigo
March 01, 2010, 12:43 PM
No it was Kubo's way of pleasing his fan base; he does not have the imagination to come up with a way to beat KS so in live action he would nerf it's abilities in order for yama to win.

Come on, now your just being silly....Now you are making excuses..Everything a character says in the manga is the character talking..Not Kubo...It's a story, so in this story Kubo Tite does not exist...Aizen Sousuke was talking...And he said, in both translations, that a fight 1 on 1 with Yama, with all of KS's illusions, HE WOULD LOSE...Anything else is just denial...Come on people, this is a non isue..Yama is stronger fighter, Aizen is a better strategist...Why cant you just accept that???????????????????

Gran Maestro
March 01, 2010, 12:50 PM
Why cant you just accept that?

Because the very thought of Yama being stronger than Aizen gives us the creeps. :p

But seriously if Aizen's words in last chapter is not enough evidence, I guess even divine revelation won't work. :)

kkck
March 01, 2010, 01:46 PM
Come on, now your just being silly....Now you are making excuses..Everything a character says in the manga is the character talking..Not Kubo...It's a story, so in this story Kubo Tite does not exist...Aizen Sousuke was talking...And he said, in both translations, that a fight 1 on 1 with Yama, with all of KS's illusions, HE WOULD LOSE...Anything else is just denial...Come on people, this is a non isue..Yama is stronger fighter, Aizen is a better strategist...Why cant you just accept that???????????????????

Aizen said he would probably lose in a straight forward fight, that much is true. Then again, is KS meant for melee or any form of straight forward combat? Considering KS creates powerful illusions and does not actually increases or enhances aizen's attack power or speed I would think the answer is no. Now, aizen admitting he would lose to yama in a melee fight does not mean yamamoto can easily deal with the illusion. Even if yama did intentionally take the hit he just took -which is very likely- then it means that for him to get past the illusion he has to take a deep wound in the gut. What would have happened in a fight where yama didn't have an overpowered kamikaza attack and aizen had indeed used his illusion for the attack -considering yama actually saw aizen behind him before the stab I am inclined to think aizen didn't even use his illusion at least at the end-? Considering the paths of actions both took, none of them is completely sure they could beat the other. Only thing we know is that yamamoto has considerably more offensive power than aizen but on the other hand yama has no way to deal with the illusion outside of being stabbed.

Gran Maestro
March 01, 2010, 02:29 PM
Aizen said he would probably lose in a straight forward fight, that much is true. Then again, is KS meant for melee or any form of straight forward combat? Considering KS creates powerful illusions and does not actually increases or enhances aizen's attack power or speed I would think the answer is no. Now, aizen admitting he would lose to yama in a melee fight does not mean yamamoto can easily deal with the illusion.

When Aizen says "in a fair/honest/direct/straight fight" we both know what he means. He means a fight in which they go all out using their zanpakuto abilities. Aizen says "RJ is the strongest zanpakuto", you interpret it as "yes, but KS is the better zanpakuto overall (= actually KS is the strongest zanpakuto, Kubo is wrong)", Aizen says "you can probably defeat me", you interpret it as "yes, you can defeat me but only if I don't use my zanpakuto." This is so lame, my friend, this is my personal opinion but whenever there is a discussion about Aizen, you leave even the tiniest bit of common sense aside and find lame excuses to support your point. I hope you are not offended, I don't mean to insult you, this is just my observation, you ignore canon by stomping on common sense.


Even if yama did intentionally take the hit he just took -which is very likely- then it means that for him to get past the illusion he has to take a deep wound in the gut. What would have happened in a fight where yama didn't have an overpowered kamikaza attack and aizen had indeed used his illusion for the attack -considering yama actually saw aizen behind him before the stab I am inclined to think aizen didn't even use his illusion at least at the end-? Considering the paths of actions both took, none of them is completely sure they could beat the other. Only thing we know is that yamamoto has considerably more offensive power than aizen but on the other hand yama has no way to deal with the illusion outside of being stabbed.

One more time: Yama is not in a "winner is the champion" fight against Aizen. Yama has a duty, he has to save KT & RD at all costs. If the king did say "Hey Yama, forget about KT and everybody else, defeat Aizen but don't die", Yama's priorities would be different, the fight would be different. Yama has to protect KT, Aizen only cares about himself, I think you can see the difference and understand why Yama did what he did.

We're grown-up people, you know what Aizen says, I know what Aizen says, everybody else knows what Aizen says. None of us can deceive the others, if this is your honest opinion about Aizen's words, then so be it. Even though I didn't agree with many of your opinions, I used to enjoy them because common sense was prevalent in your posts. Not any more because it seems Aizen favoritism trumps your common sense. If Yama did say "KS is the strongest zanpakuto and Aizen can probably defeat me in a fair fight", then I'd accept it because (whether I like it or not) I respect Kubo's choices but it's just me.

dantoddd
March 01, 2010, 02:59 PM
It's high time people got over the fact that Aizen himself conceded to himself being weaker than Yamamoto. I think that was a pretty definitive statement about combat capabilities. FIN.

Saint Markus
March 01, 2010, 04:40 PM
well, if Aizen is stronger, then why go through all the trouble to create "WW"?. and if Kubo is writing this into the story, how can you argue the facts?. it's like saying, Ichigo's stronger in Ban Kai mode than Hollow Transformation. and it's not to feed into fanboyism, it's just fact. it's right there in the translations and the chapter, how can you argue that?.

and why shouldn't Yama-ji be stronger anyways, he founded the da*n Gotei 13 himself, which means he might've been directly under the Spirit King at one point. the guy is old, experienced and powerful as sh*t. he was only going to use a mere technique from his zanpakuto to finish himself and Aizen off. imagine if he went, Ban Kai. it's be a done deal.

plus, if all Wonderweiss can do is extinguish flames, that doesn't save him from defeat by Yama-ji. a "blade" and "flames" are two different things and i imagine Yama-ji will find a way out of this.

Primecut
March 02, 2010, 11:48 AM
Aizen wouldnt have got so close to Yamamoto if he would lose to him in a fight. He'd just bust out Wonderweis from the beginning. All he meant was Ryunijaka would beat him due to the power advantage, due to the ability to incinerate entire areas.

Gran Maestro
March 02, 2010, 12:05 PM
Aizen wouldnt have got so close to Yamamoto if he would lose to him in a fight. He'd just bust out Wonderweis from the beginning. All he meant was Ryunijaka would beat him due to the power advantage, due to the ability to incinerate entire areas.

Aizen attacked Yamamoto recklessly because he knew WW could save him in a worst case scenario which was about to happen. Perhaps Aizen wanted to reveal Yamamoto's plan before he made his own move (WW).

Raizen
March 02, 2010, 06:22 PM
Aizen fans are almost getting to be as bad as itachi/sasuke fans.

Aizen is the one with the huge fan base while people dislike yamamoto b/c of his bad attitude. but I for one like yama. The manga proved that aizen is inferior to yama. That much is true. Even with his abilities to use illusions and trick yama, also factoring a potential for hollow powers, Aizen still feels Yama would beat him in a fight.

That is all there is to it. swallow your pride and admit your wrong. Unlesss you want to go against the guy writing the manga :notrust

Raizen
March 09, 2010, 08:18 PM
^^ spoilers guy. watch out. The mods are gonna eat ya

Yamamoto wins. Anyone who says otherwise is either not reading the manga or arguing against the author himself

niblack89
March 09, 2010, 08:29 PM
In a fare fight it would seem that Yama would win. We see this because even Aizensaid so and he created wondwis to seal his powers to create a win for him.

vizardichigo
March 10, 2010, 12:52 AM
People are still saying Aizen is gonna win....Look i didnt like Aizen at first....Now i love the guy...IMO he is the best villain i have seen thus far in shounen manga...He is strong, smart, sneaky, and is a smart ass ( which is a good thing)....Along with Kenpachi and Grimmjow, they are my fav characters together, i like none more than the other...But despite him being my joint fav character, i am not a fan boy..

I cannot go against manga fact, and manga fact is that Yama is stronger and i am kinda glad because while i like Aizen alot, his fans annoy the hell outta me :|.....They talk as if he is Jesus Divine, abd while i like his character and his swag anbd his manipulative skills, i mean its just a manga....He aint real...And i cant go against what is in the manga....How can i? Its wriiten in front my face....Fan boys are the reason i dont like Hitsu and Ulq as much i used to.

hajialibaig
March 11, 2010, 12:34 PM
the 30-5 vote poll for Yama should be a sufficient indicative of what the consensus here is

Primecut
March 11, 2010, 12:38 PM
I'm still backing Aizen. Perfect Hypnosis factor. I do respect the Yama backers opinions but theirs is just the wrong one IMO. Lots of people got something against Aizen because of all the favorite characters he has pwned apparently. :) There I said it...

Rainl
March 11, 2010, 02:47 PM
the 30-5 vote poll for Yama should be a sufficient indicative of what the consensus here is

It wouldn't have mattered what the poll said anyway. The author already answered this question.

kkck
March 11, 2010, 09:34 PM
I still think the perfect illusion is a big factor here and aizen has as good a chance at winning. I guess it depends on whether yama is caught in the illusion. Basically two scenarios, one where he fights as he did in FKT and another where he fights without the illusion on. If the fight starts without the illusion then the fight basically starts with aizen not having an ability to fight yamamoto's own and that is a problem. As much as I think Aizen has the speed and abilities to defend himself at least for a while he would lose without a doubt in such a situation.

On the other hand if aizen starts with the illusion or manages to trick yama into falling for it -which realistically speaking is not hard at all if yama has not idea of what it is; yama would actually look quite intensively at the sword if aizen announces a release or at least that is what most people do lol- then he has a serious problem. As much as RJ has insane attack power and apparently range, it is not good at all if yama is aiming for thin air. There are many ways in which the illusion can be used to trick yama and make openings. Going for someones back is remarkably easy with KS.

Now, I know a lot of people just rant about aizen admitting he would lose to aizen (I don't think aizen went that far though, Aizen merely admitted RJ could overpower him which does not equate to losing) but I can't see a realistic scenario where KS and his also insane abilities don't even allow him a fighting chance. I don't think the difference in reiatsu between yama and aizen is that big so I don't even see how RJ can take out aizen easily with one hit as some people would seem to believe. Of course, if anyone has a realistic scenario where KS cannot even hope to provide a shred of a defense against yama then I am all ears (actually do provide a realistic scenario, not just the same rants which have been plaguing the discussion forum).

Primecut
March 11, 2010, 11:32 PM
Well, that poll does indicate what the majority have decided. I just suspect it was do to dislike of Aizen moreso than belief that Yama can actually pull it off. Am I wrong?

kkck
March 12, 2010, 12:27 AM
Well, that poll does indicate what the majority have decided. I just suspect it was do to dislike of Aizen moreso than belief that Yama can actually pull it off. Am I wrong?

It is mostly the excitement of the moment. Right now a vague comment was made and suddenly everyone got carried away -specially people who thought shunsui would be any fodder against aizen than hitsu was, people who thought it was unreasonable aizen could take all the captains by himself easily and hold his ground without breaking a sweat or using his illusion or that there was a shred of a chance anyone but yama could so much as make aizen make an effort in a fight-. As usual things are gonna moderate regarding this as the weeks go by -that much is a constant in every manga discussion I have ever been in- specially considering no one has managed to device a scenario where aizens illusion is realistically useless against yama or RJ for that matter.

El Samurai Guapo
March 12, 2010, 04:08 AM
It is mostly the excitement of the moment. Right now a vague comment was made and suddenly everyone got carried away -specially people who thought shunsui would be any fodder against aizen than hitsu was, people who thought it was unreasonable aizen could take all the captains by himself easily and hold his ground without breaking a sweat or using his illusion or that there was a shred of a chance anyone but yama could so much as make aizen make an effort in a fight-. As usual things are gonna moderate regarding this as the weeks go by -that much is a constant in every manga discussion I have ever been in- specially considering no one has managed to device a scenario where aizens illusion is realistically useless against yama or RJ for that matter.

I think one big factor is going to be what Aizen's bankai is. He may be a character that has an overpowered shikai, but not necessarily a bankai that makes him that much more stronger. I really can't think of a way complete hypnosis can be improved. Whereas certain characters (namely the ones who's bankai have remained purposefully unrevealed) have a lot of room for improvement. I could easily see some pretty wicked abilities coming from Gin, Shinji, Shunsui, and Jushirou's bankais. Who knows that kind of "games" Katen Kyoukotsu's bankai form can force it's opponents to play, there could possibly be something there that could be a threat to Aizen.

I believe there was a reason behind Aizen defeating all of those characters simultaneously. It was so that they may be taken out of this fight (but not killed) so that their bankais will remain hidden until future arcs.

DEATHBOTT
March 12, 2010, 04:42 AM
im waiting for their bankais before i make up my mind.

also the manga is confusing as shit wasn't yama planning on killing himself and everyone else to defeat yama, while aizan should technically just put yama under hypnosis with out getting stabbed and then beable to win. it doesn't compute. my diagnosis....... kubo's shitty writing and BAD BABYSITTING!!!!

AlB
March 12, 2010, 05:23 AM
what 's here to discuss? aizen won. he outwitted yama, he PWNED yama, he burnt his beard for god's sake :P

yama said himself that the only thing that would get to aizen was kamikaze attack. even THAT didn't work. LOLZ

MUSCLES DO NOT ALWAYS DO THE TRICK!!!!!

still without WW Aizen will have a very hard time dealing with yama, but he would still win
[hr]

Aizen fans are almost getting to be as bad as itachi/sasuke fans.

Aizen is the one with the huge fan base while people dislike yamamoto b/c of his bad attitude. but I for one like yama. The manga proved that aizen is inferior to yama. That much is true. Even with his abilities to use illusions and trick yama, also factoring a potential for hollow powers, Aizen still feels Yama would beat him in a fight.

That is all there is to it. swallow your pride and admit your wrong. Unlesss you want to go against the guy writing the manga :notrust

swallow my pride? would be so kind to answer one simple question:
who won?

maybe we have different fighting conditions here but when it comes to aizen muscles don't matter, age don'matter, speed don't matter, the only thing that matters: a brains. and based from everything I read in Bleach yama's brain is just as potent as dinosaurs'. LOL he even failed to see that there was smth wrong with central 46! (using sokyoku on a foot soldier COME ON!!)

anyway. Aizen is smarter than yama. it's a FACT and a fact is the most stubborn thing in the universe. FACTS can not be denied.

P.S. wow, I made a great comparison :D yama = dinosaur:
strength - UNIMAGINABLE
intellect - erm... let's skip this part lol

he will just spam his RJ and kidos into the wring direction thinking he is hitting aizen, tire himslef and then get pwned by some aizen's kido (aizen will have a looooot of time for incantaions to make his spells 100X stronger)

Gran Maestro
March 12, 2010, 07:09 AM
Of course, if anyone has a realistic scenario where KS cannot even hope to provide a shred of a defense against yama then I am all ears (actually do provide a realistic scenario, not just the same rants which have been plaguing the discussion forum).

Here is a realistic scenario: When Aizen is in range, Yamamoto goes all out and unleashes hell, Aizen dies or gets incapacitated. (I guess you won't argue that Aizen can survive Yama's fire after the author explicitly stated he can't.) Getting close to Yamamoto is a big risk for Aizen, even if he uses KS he can't know when Yama may attack, so his only chance is to stay away as far as possible and try to attack and one-shot Yama at some point but as Aizen acknowledges, this plan likely fails.


Right now a vague comment was made and suddenly everyone got carried away

Vague comment? So I guess Aizen should have said "If I fought Yama directly, he would eat me alive, curbstomp me, split me in half" because people still have trouble understanding what "I would likely lose" means. I sometimes feel we're in a kindergarten trying to explain what "losing/overpowering" means.

If people won't respect the decisions of the author, why do they bother discussing anything about the manga? Once we start doing selective reading, our future arguments referencing any part of the manga become null and void because people say "Oh, so you believe the author only if it suits you. I reject that part of the manga like you rejected the other part of the manga." Don't kill any future discussions by rejecting the manga, it will backfire on you.


would be so kind to answer one simple question:
who won?

So Hisagi is stronger than Tousen? What a weird argument.

AlB
March 12, 2010, 07:24 AM
So Hisagi is stronger than Tousen? What a weird argument.

nope, tousen was blinded by his ability to see (lol at the irony :p) he was so happy to be finaly able to "see" that he abandoned all his other senses and allowed hisagi to outmaneuver him. it's completely different thing, so I'd say your argument is even weirder

Gran Maestro
March 12, 2010, 07:30 AM
nope, tousen was blinded by his ability to see (lol at the irony :p) he was so happy to be finaly able to "see" that he abandoned all his other senses and allowed hisagi to outmaneuver him. it's completely different thing, so I'd say your argument is even weirder

Who won? Hisagi. So according to you, Hisagi must be stronger because otherwise you wouldn't ask this question ignoring the circumstances like Aizen's plot armor and WW's role as a plot device.

AlB
March 12, 2010, 07:33 AM
Who won? Hisagi. So according to you, Hisagi must be stronger because otherwise you wouldn't ask this question ignoring the circumstances like Aizen's plot armor and WW's role as a plot device.

sorry, I don't understand what you mean by plot armor
ww is a further proof that aizen is a smart guy.

btw, I never said aizen was stronger than yama, on the contrary, I admit that in terms of brute force yama is much stronger. what I'm saying is that Aizen is BETTER than yama when it comes to actual combat. get it? (oh and 10000000x smarter)

and yeah hisagi won, it doesn't matter if tousen was faster, stronger or whatever. HISAGI WON, HE PWNED TOUSEN, end of story..

Gran Maestro
March 12, 2010, 07:41 AM
sorry, I don't understand what you mean by plot armor

and yeah hisagi won, it doesn't matter if tousen was faster, stronger or whatever. HISAGI WON, HE PWNED TOUSEN, end of story. victor - hisagi shuuhei

Hisagi won but Tousen was stronger, wasn't he? Normally, Tousen would most probably defeat him, right? This is what we are trying to discuss: Who would win under neutral circumstances?

Aizen is one of the mains (main protagonist and main antagonist), so he has plot armor. Ichigo is destined to defeat Aizen because the plot demands so. So everybody else is expected to fail against Aizen even though they may be ten times more powerful. (not talking about Yama when saying 10x more powerful)

AlB
March 12, 2010, 07:45 AM
Hisagi won but Tousen was stronger, wasn't he? Normally, Tousen would most probably defeat him, right? This is what we are trying to discuss: Who would win under neutral circumstances?

Aizen is one of the mains (main protagonist and main antagonist), so he has plot armor. Ichigo is destined to defeat Aizen because the plot demands so. So everybody else is expected to fail against Aizen even though they may be ten times more powerful. (not talking about Yama when saying 10x more powerful)

please define neutral circumstances. what, they should not use tricks, should not use tactics? should not think? just bash 1 on 1, honorable fair fight bullshit? :notrust

of course hisagi wouldn't stand a chance, of course aizen would die if they did this idiotic honorable glorious fight thing.

it's a war, stab the guy in the back while he's not looking or get yourself killed. use your brains. that's a pretty normal circumstance if you ask me

Gran Maestro
March 12, 2010, 07:51 AM
btw, I never said aizen was stronger than yama, on the contrary, I admit that in terms of brute force yama is much stronger. what I'm saying is that Aizen is BETTER than yama when it comes to actual combat. get it? (oh and 10000000x smarter)

I don't know what you guys mean when you say "stronger" but when somebody says "character A is stronger than character B", I interpret it as "character A defeats character B in combat." When WW interfered, the fight was no longer "Aizen vs Yama" fight, it became "Aizen's forces vs Yama" fight. Likewise if Yama did defeat Aizen by getting help from, for example, Shunsui, it wouldn't be Yama's win.
[hr]

please define neutral circumstances. what, they should not use tricks, should not use tactics? should not think? just bash 1 on 1, honorable fair fight bullshit? :notrust

Neutral circumstances: A one-on-one fight, Yama vs Aizen in a remote planet. Neither side will have plot protection. No preparation from both sides, only battle skills.

tobeulp
March 12, 2010, 07:56 AM
Yama wins this... Aizen have stated that he will not won against Yama that is why he created WW.... Even with illusions Yama figure out where is Aizen is because of the Zanpakotou Yama could have kill Aizen there if WW didn't interfere.

AlB
March 12, 2010, 07:59 AM
I don't know what you guys mean when you say "stronger" but when somebody says "character A is stronger than character B", I interpret it as "character A defeats character B in combat." When WW interfered, the fight was no longer "Aizen vs Yama" fight, it became "Aizen's forces vs Yama" fight. Likewise if Yama did defeat Aizen by getting help from, for example, Shunsui, it wouldn't be Yama's win.
<hr noshade size="1">


oh but it would. if it was yama's plan shunsui was acting according to it would be yama's win. and vice versa: if it was shunsui's plan than I would say shunsui won. if you still insist on your opinion than allow me to ask: who's win it would be?

and btw. you interpretation is absolutely wrong. "stronger" doesn't mean better. it doesn't define the victor
oh and I'll repeat myself: I never said aizen is stronger than yama, I said THE OPPOSITE. but Aizen still won because he IS TONS SMARTER THAN YAMA he is better tactician, better strategist, better fighter!! not stronger, better!

Gran Maestro
March 12, 2010, 08:10 AM
oh but it would. if it was yama's plan shunsui was acting according to it would be yama's win. and vice versa: if it was shunsui's plan than I would say shunsui won. if you still insist on your opinion than allow me to ask: who's win it would be?

Yama & Shunsui's win because it's a team effort. Suppose that Yama is fighting Shunsui & Ukitake: if they carry out Ukitake's strategy and defeat Yama, it is still a team victory because they could never win by themselves.


and btw. you interpretation is absolutely wrong. "stronger" doesn't mean better. it doesn't define the victor
oh and I'll repeat myself: I never said aizen is stronger than yama, I said THE OPPOSITE. but Aizen still won because he IS TONS SMARTER THAN YAMA he is better tactician, better strategist, better fighter!! not stronger, better!

Aizen is a scientist, Yama is not. In a war of science (by using specifically prepared arrancars, devices, poisons, bacteria, etc) even Mayuri can defeat Yama (or Aizen) if the plot demands so. WW also deserves credit in Yama's defeat, it's not all Aizen. Even if WW is Aizen's subordinate, they're still different beings.

AlB
March 12, 2010, 08:32 AM
Yama & Shunsui's win because it's a team effort. Suppose that Yama is fighting Shunsui & Ukitake: if they carry out Ukitake's strategy and defeat Yama, it is still a team victory because they could never win by themselves.



Aizen is a scientist, Yama is not. In a war of science (by using specifically prepared arrancars, devices, poisons, bacteria, etc) even Mayuri can defeat Yama (or Aizen) if the plot demands so. WW also deserves credit in Yama's defeat, it's not all Aizen. Even if WW is Aizen's subordinate, they're still different beings.

I agree WW deserves some credit, but not an entire credit. Aizen made him this way so again: kudos to aizen. let us put it this way: captains and leutenants were getting slashed and pwned by aizen because they were buying yama time to prepare his tech right? again team effort. so aizen + ww team beat the crap out of yama + captains + leutenants + vizards + ichigo team. see any difference?

Gran Maestro
March 12, 2010, 09:01 AM
I agree WW deserves some credit, but not an entire credit. Aizen made him this way so again: kudos to aizen. let us put it this way: captains and leutenants were getting slashed and pwned by aizen because they were buying yama time to prepare his tech right? again team effort. so aizen + ww team beat the crap out of yama + captains + leutenants + vizards + ichigo team. see any difference?

But then Aizen's subordinates weakened the captains and the vizards (Ichigo pointed it out when he said they were all injured) so we can say it was Aizen's forces vs SS's forces.

No matter what, we mustn't miss one very important point regarding the circumstances: Yama couldn't go all-out because lives of innocent people were at stake and Aizen took advantage of that.

Yama sacrificed himself to protect the civilians, this is why I was talking about neutral circumstances which Aizen can't use to his advantage by threatening to kill other people.

Here's another example of what I'm talking about:

http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/194/16/

Ulquiorra: "If the two of you fight me while trying to protect that trash at the same time, it's fairly obvious who would have the upper hand."

Aizen is the bad guy, he had the advantage of disregarding other people's lives and he made best use of it, this is why his side won. (Or maybe not because Urahara is still missing and Ichigo is a wild card.)

AlB
March 12, 2010, 10:44 AM
But then Aizen's subordinates weakened the captains and the vizards (Ichigo pointed it out when he said they were all injured) so we can say it was Aizen's forces vs SS's forces.

No matter what, we mustn't miss one very important point regarding the circumstances: Yama couldn't go all-out because lives of innocent people were at stake and Aizen took advantage of that. Yama sacrificed himself to protect the civilians, this is why I was talking about neutral circumstances which Aizen can't use to his advantage by threatening to kill other people.

Here's another example of what I'm talking about:

http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/194/16/

Ulquiorra: "If the two of you fight me while trying to protect that trash at the same time, it's fairly obvious who would have the upper hand."

Aizen is the bad guy, he had the advantage of disregarding other people's lives and he made best use of it, this is why his side won. (Or maybe not because Urahara is still missing and Ichigo is a wild card.)

that's true, but don't forget that aizen is a kido master no less than yamamoto. if yama didn't jump on ww aizen would simply bombard him with kido + bankai + mask + hollow release, while yama wasn't even able to go shikai, let alone bankai. without his AoE RJ attacks there's no way he would kill aizen.

btw, since when is ichigo a professional about injuries? the only one's who recieved substantial damage out of captain level shinigami were Hachi and Soifon, nobody else. shinji and shunsui both had wide slashes on their backs but it appears that they fought aizen shows us that they weren't bothered by those attacks. (koma doesn't count he is even bigger failure than ukitake, even at his max he is weakest)

but I agree it was Aizen's squad vs SS, Ryoka and Vizard army. Aizen won against them.

Gran Maestro
March 12, 2010, 11:17 AM
that's true, but don't forget that aizen is a kido master no less than yamamoto. if yama didn't jump on ww aizen would simply bombard him with kido + bankai + mask + hollow release, while yama wasn't even able to go shikai, let alone bankai. without his AoE RJ attacks there's no way he would kill aizen.

If Yama didn't jump on WW, everybody would die and Bleach would officially end. :)

By the way, I don't think manga confirmed that RJ's flames wouldn't come back once WW died. I may be wrong though. :blink

P.S. I put spoiler tags for events happened in last chapter.

BaddAzzKenpachi74
March 12, 2010, 11:24 AM
If Yama didn't jump on WW, everybody would die and Bleach would officially end. :)

By the way, I don't think manga confirmed that RJ's flames wouldn't come back once WW died. I may be wrong though. :blink
yea your right bleach would have ended along with Aizen if Yama didn't do that.
Aizen is a smart bastard i'll give him that and useing his smarts he knew for a fact that 100/100% Chance that Yama would do wut he did and he was right.
and no the manga never said anything about the flames not comeing back.
infact i see no reason why he wouldn't come back after wonderweiss is dead considering that a zan is apart of the shinigami himself

Gran Maestro
March 12, 2010, 11:27 AM
Guys, I think we'll get a warning if we don't use spoiler tags about the events happened in chapter 395. I've just realized it. :)

AlB
March 12, 2010, 11:28 AM
If Yama didn't jump on WW, everybody would die and Bleach would officially end. :)

By the way, I don't think manga confirmed that RJ's flames wouldn't come back once WW died. I may be wrong though. :blink

P.S. I put spoiler tags for events happened in last chapter.



and no the manga never said anything about the flames not comeing back.
infact i see no reason why he wouldn't come back after wonderweiss is dead considering that a zan is apart of the shinigami himself




http://mangastream.com/read/bleach/395-71/8 aizen disagrees. he said: that they can never be born again. the flames in ww were the ones yama already released, no the ones that "can never be born again"

P.S.
completely forgot about spoilers. thnx for the warning

btw, I don't think aizen is bad. he was sure yama would protect FKT. as to why I think that aizen is not bad - I am too to explain and + it's off-topic. :D

Gran Maestro
March 12, 2010, 11:38 AM
aizen disagrees

Aizen: "To "seal" the flames...in other words, to trap them within the blade itself, so that it can bring forth no more."

We don't know whether the sword was sealed as long as WW was alive or for good. mangastream translation may be a bit off, cnet translation is more reliable.

AlB
March 12, 2010, 11:50 AM
Aizen: "To "seal" the flames...in other words, to trap them within the blade itself, so that it can bring forth no more."

We don't know whether the sword was sealed as long as WW was alive or for good. mangastream translation may be a bit off, cnet translation is more reliable.

where can I get cnet translation?

kkck
March 12, 2010, 11:55 AM
Here is a realistic scenario: When Aizen is in range, Yamamoto goes all out and unleashes hell, Aizen dies or gets incapacitated. (I guess you won't argue that Aizen can survive Yama's fire after the author explicitly stated he can't.) Getting close to Yamamoto is a big risk for Aizen, even if he uses KS he can't know when Yama may attack, so his only chance is to stay away as far as possible and try to attack and one-shot Yama at some point but as Aizen acknowledges, this plan likely fails.



Vague comment? So I guess Aizen should have said "If I fought Yama directly, he would eat me alive, curbstomp me, split me in half" because people still have trouble understanding what "I would likely lose" means. I sometimes feel we're in a kindergarten trying to explain what "losing/overpowering" means.

If people won't respect the decisions of the author, why do they bother discussing anything about the manga? Once we start doing selective reading, our future arguments referencing any part of the manga become null and void because people say "Oh, so you believe the author only if it suits you. I reject that part of the manga like you rejected the other part of the manga." Don't kill any future discussions by rejecting the manga, it will backfire on you.

How would yama realistically know aizen is in range? Even then, it does not seem as if Yama could get aizen in a single hit without preparations. Surely his prepared attack was more that immensely powerful but in a normal situation that won't happen. I would think if kyoraku and ukitake could handle RJ then aizen should also be able to handle it directly at least for a while. Now, even if yama spams RJ, aizen would ultimately just shunpo back and let yama kick the ass of all the thin air in wherever they are fighting.

Sure, if aizen had said that it would be simpler but he didn't. He simply said he would likely lose if he fights RJ directly. Basically there is a high degree of probability he would lose -hence likely- under the condition he fights RJ directly which is avoidable with his smarts, abilities, shunpo and illusion. Truth is, nothing that has been revealed makes yama any less vulnerable to aizens illusion than anyone else.
[hr]

where can I get cnet translation?
here (http://mangahelpers.com/t/cnet128/releases/20656)

Gran Maestro
March 12, 2010, 12:17 PM
How would yama realistically know aizen is in range? Even then, it does not seem as if Yama could get aizen in a single hit without preparations. Surely his prepared attack was more that immensely powerful but in a normal situation that won't happen.

Well, we don't know the full abilities of Aizen's zanpakuto right now but I guess reiatsu sense can give you a hint about the location of Aizen. Not the exact location but whether he is near or far away.

I think Yama used "flames of hell" attack because using bankai was out of the question. If he went bankai, I guess he could do devastating damage compared to this shikai technique.


I would think if kyoraku and ukitake could handle RJ then aizen should also be able to handle it directly at least for a while. Now, even if yama spams RJ, aizen would ultimately just shunpo back and let yama kick the ass of all the thin air in wherever they are fighting.

I think Yama never intended to kill Shunsui and Ukitake, this is why they are still alive. Kubo made it clear that they stood no chance against Yama. And perhaps Ukitake and Shunsui's shikai abilities played a role in defending against RJ's flames.


Sure, if aizen had said that it would be simpler but he didn't. He simply said he would likely lose if he fights RJ directly. Basically there is a high degree of probability he would lose -hence likely- under the condition he fights RJ directly which is avoidable with his smarts, abilities, shunpo and illusion. Truth is, nothing that has been revealed makes yama any less vulnerable to aizens illusion than anyone else.

Come on, your argument doesn't make any sense and you know that. :)

You basically tell me that Aizen would probably lose if he didn't use KS, shunpo and other abilities. Are you kidding me, you made Yama a joke: Even if Aizen doesn't use these abilities, Yama's win isn't certain, is it what you say? Then we can say that once Aizen starts using these abilities, poor Yamamoto stands no chance. And you also made Aizen a moron for wasting his time on WW, it was unnecessary after all.

Why would Aizen talk about a fictional scenario where he couldn't use these abilities when he was perfectly able to do so? No. it doesn't make sense, Aizen was certainly talking about an all-out one-on-one fight. ;)

BaddAzzKenpachi74
March 12, 2010, 12:33 PM
Well, we don't know the full abilities of Aizen's zanpakuto right now but I guess reiatsu sense can give you a hint about the location of Aizen. Not the exact location but whether he is near or far away.

I think Yama used "flames of hell" attack because using bankai was out of the question. If he went bankai, I guess he could do devastating damage compared to this shikai technique.



I think Yama never intended to kill Shunsui and Ukitake, this is why they are still alive. Kubo made it clear that they stood no chance against Yama. And perhaps Ukitake and Shunsui's shikai abilities played a role in defending against RJ's flames.



Come on, your argument doesn't make any sense and you know that. :)

You basically tell me that Aizen would probably lose if he didn't use KS, shunpo and other abilities. Are you kidding me, you made Yama a joke: Even if Aizen doesn't use these abilities, Yama's win isn't certain, is it what you say? Then we can say that once Aizen starts using these abilities, poor Yamamoto stands no chance. And you also made Aizen a moron for wasting his time on WW, it was unnecessary after all.

Why would Aizen talk about a fictional scenario where he couldn't use these abilities when he was perfectly able to do so? No. it doesn't make sense, Aizen was certainly talking about an all-out one-on-one fight. ;)
i agree with everything u said especially your point about Shunsui's abilities maybe having a factor on his and Ukitakes battle with Yama.
it seems Aizen fans love to use that scenerio now that Aizen 1 shoted a DISTRACTED Shunsui.
fact is that Shunsu's colur games have NOTHING to do with strength wich means no matter how strong the flames of RJ is it won't hurt unless the right colur is cut.
for all we know Shunsui may have been useing that inorder to protect himself and Ukitake.
but even then it was clear who had the advantage considering that Ukitake and Shunsui were sweating and panting while Yama was perfectly fine

kkck
March 12, 2010, 12:36 PM
Come on, your argument doesn't make any sense and you know that.

You basically tell me that Aizen would probably lose if he didn't use KS, shunpo and other abilities. Are you kidding me, you made Yama a joke: Even if Aizen doesn't use these abilities, Yama's win isn't certain, is it what you say? Then we can say that once Aizen starts using these abilities, poor Yamamoto stands no chance. And you also made Aizen a moron for wasting his time on WW, it was unnecessary after all.

Why would Aizen talk about a fictional scenario where he couldn't use these abilities when he was perfectly able to do so? No. it doesn't make sense, Aizen was certainly talking about an all-out one-on-one fight.

I did not say that in the least. Can you even read lol? I said Aizen can use all of his abilities to avoid direct combat which does not even resemble to what you claimed I said -you made it sound as if I said yama wins only if aizen is confined to a wheelchair or something....-. Now, without KS a direct confrontation is basically unavoidable though.

And WW was necessary. Yamamoto was the sole shinigami who actually stood a chance against aizen, the only one who could realistically defeat him. Shunsui, ukitake, hitsugaya, komamura, shinji, rose, love or soifon would not lay a finger on him even if their lives depended on it, they weren't worth the trouble nor the further deterioration from the hyogoku which would result from modifying arrancar solely for them -the espada were enough to handle most captains considering the only reason harribel didn't kill hitsugaya after being freed was that he got help from hiyori and liza and soifon wasn't murdered because of hachi; hard to say how the fight with starrk would have gone without the vizards though-.

Gran Maestro
March 12, 2010, 12:45 PM
I did not say that in the least. Can you even read lol? I said Aizen can use all of his abilities to avoid direct combat which does not even resemble to what you claimed I said -you made it sound as if I said yama wins only if aizen is confined to a wheelchair or something....-. Now, without KS a direct confrontation is basically unavoidable though.

Ok, let's start over: If Aizen uses KS, it's not a direct fight, right? But you think that even though Yama goes bankai, his victory against Aizen with an unreleased sword is not certain. Is it what you say?


And WW was necessary. Yamamoto was the sole shinigami who actually stood a chance against aizen, the only one who could realistically defeat him.

How can Yama realistically defeat Aizen if you think KS is invincible? ;)

kkck
March 12, 2010, 12:54 PM
Ok, let's start over: If Aizen uses KS, it's not a direct fight, right? But you think that even though Yama goes bankai, his victory against Aizen with an unreleased sword is not certain. Is it what you say?

I have no idea of what yama's bankai is nor how it would match up against aizen's unknown bankai. I have not even considered that given the unknown parts. When did I say anything about bankai yama losing against sealed sword aizen -hard considering I have yet to mention bankai at all-?

edit: On another completely different note, I am of the school of thought that aizen's bankai will be an ability completely unrelated to that of his shikai, there simply is not way to improve the illusion. I think it is going to be a situation similar to that of soifon (where the lack of capacity to improve an ability results in bankai being a completely different one). In that sense perhaps aizen's shikai could potentially be more dangerous than his bankai or at least be more versatile or practical.

How can Yama realistically defeat Aizen if you think KS is invincible? ;)

That is exactly what I want to know:p. We have no reason to believe KS is anything less other than a flawless/perfect illusion so I am very interested in how yama could play this out.

Gran Maestro
March 12, 2010, 01:00 PM
I have no idea of what yama's bankai is nor how it would match up against aizen's unknown bankai. I have not even considered that given the unknown parts. When did I say anything about bankai yama losing against sealed sword aizen -hard considering I have yet to mention bankai at all-?

LOL you state some arguments but you overlook the consequences of them.

Fact: Yama would probably defeat Aizen in a direct fight.

Premise: If Aizen uses his zanpakuto abilities, it is no more a direct fight.

Conclusion: Yama would probably defeat Aizen if Aizen didn't use KS.


That is exactly what I want to know:p. We have no reason to believe KS is anything less other than a flawless/perfect illusion so I am very interested in how yama could play this out.

You don't know but Kubo knows it. Perhaps you should trust him. ;)

BaddAzzKenpachi74
March 12, 2010, 01:03 PM
I have no idea of what yama's bankai is nor how it would match up against aizen's unknown bankai. I have not even considered that given the unknown parts. When did I say anything about bankai yama losing against sealed sword aizen -hard considering I have yet to mention bankai at all-?

edit: On another completely different note, I am of the school of thought that aizen's bankai will be an ability completely unrelated to that of his shikai, there simply is not way to improve the illusion. I think it is going to be a situation similar to that of soifon (where the lack of capacity to improve an ability results in bankai being a completely different one). In that sense perhaps aizen's shikai could potentially be more dangerous than his bankai or at least be more versatile or practical.


That is exactly what I want to know:p. We have no reason to believe KS is anything less other than a flawless/perfect illusion so I am very interested in how yama could play this out.
we'll considering that Yama's power can destroy entire cities apparently.
all he would have to do is destroy ALL areas around him and Aizen is bound to get caught.
Aizen's illusions can "hide" him but he is still there.
so your telling me if yama quickly jumps above the city and IMEDIATLY release a attack to destroy the entire city Aizen will be able to escape that?

kkck
March 12, 2010, 01:12 PM
LOL you state some arguments but you overlook the consequences of them.

Fact: Yama would probably defeat Aizen in a direct fight.

Premise: If Aizen uses his zanpakuto abilities, it is no more a direct fight.

Conclusion: Yama would probably defeat Aizen if Aizen didn't use KS.
Well perhaps even without the illusion things would not be easy for yama. At least we know this:


Aizen: ...Petty arguments? // It is because you dismiss my words to easily... // ...that you fail... // ...to understand what I have told you.
We should never take anything aizen says lightly.



You don't know but Kubo knows it. Perhaps you should trust him. ;)
None of us has a shred of an idea of what kubo is thinking. Perhaps what he is actually thinking has nothing to do with what either of us are thinking.
[hr]

we'll considering that Yama's power can destroy entire cities apparently.
all he would have to do is destroy ALL areas around him and Aizen is bound to get caught.
Aizen's illusions can "hide" him but he is still there.
so your telling me if yama quickly jumps above the city and IMEDIATLY release a attack to destroy the entire city Aizen will be able to escape that?

That explosion was the result of absorbing an attack which yama took quite some time preparing -the flames of hell one-. If yama could pull anything anywhere near that without preparing then there is no reason for him to prepare anything at all. I doubt yama can pull the power to destroy such huge areas without preparing.

Also whether the huge explosion could kill aizen is still kinda out there. The flames of hell yama prepared were a different thing from the explosion. It seems the flames of hell were going to be a powerful, concentrated and contained attack (I don't think yamamoto would have used such an explosion if it involved destroying everything only so that he would take it upon himself to block it if it happened in a slightly different way). Simply using the power differently could have resulted in drastically different outcomes. Aizen seemed surprising calm and was aware WW would at some point release the huge power which it did absorb, perhaps he accounted for something like this. I don't think aizen is all knowing and new yama was going to take the hit -o perhaps he didn't but manipulated him into doing so?-

BaddAzzKenpachi74
March 12, 2010, 01:18 PM
Well perhaps even without the illusion things would not be easy for yama. At least we know this:

We should never take anything aizen says lightly.



None of us has a shred of an idea of what kubo is thinking. Perhaps what he is actually thinking has nothing to do with what either of us are thinking.
<hr noshade size="1">


That explosion was the result of absorbing an attack which yama took quite some time preparing -the flames of hell one-. If yama could pull anything anywhere near that without preparing then there is no reason for him to prepare anything at all. I doubt yama can pull the power to destroy such huge areas without preparing.
i have to disagree.
the initial attack was apparently MUCH weaker then the one WW released since Aizen CONFIRED that it would destroy the entire city along with the Pillars keeping KT in SS.
the flames weren't just from that attack otherwise why would it come out MUCH stronger then it was before.
i think that attack was the FULL FORCE of RJ power wich most likely means Bankai.
considering that his Shikai can destroy entire areas its only Natural to think his Bankai could do 10x as much damage as that and that was wut happened with WW.
fact is we will never know why Yama didn't just use his Bankai and destroy the entire town with Aizen in it.
fact is i think its just plot induced stupidity.
the same stupidity that plagued Shunsui,Shinji,Ukitake and many more.
wut we can guess is since RJ has a Offencive shikai then the Bankai will maximize that.
while KS is more used for illusions and tricks wich Aizen's Bankai would maximize that.
fact is i just don't think Aizen would be able to beat a fully released RJ wich i think can destroy entire cities easily

Gran Maestro
March 12, 2010, 01:22 PM
Well perhaps even without the illusion things would not be easy for yama.

If Yama with bankai is unable to win easily against Aizen's unreleased sword, Aizen with shikai (let alone bankai and hollow powers) can curbstomp Yama and WW's role in the story becomes moot.

Aizen's words and his reluctance to confront Yama make the story more consistent. (hence his escape at the end of SS arc and creating WW) I think we must be thankful for the explanation instead of trying to make the story more inconsistent. We must give Kubo some space instead of questioning his decision with our insufficient information about Aizen, Kubo will explain it when the right time comes.


At least we know this:

We should never take anything aizen says lightly.

If we took Aizen's words about Yama lightly, we wouldn't be having this discussion. :)

kkck
March 12, 2010, 01:41 PM
i have to disagree.
the initial attack was apparently MUCH weaker then the one WW released since Aizen CONFIRED that it would destroy the entire city along with the Pillars keeping KT in SS.
the flames weren't just from that attack otherwise why would it come out MUCH stronger then it was before.
i think that attack was the FULL FORCE of RJ power wich most likely means Bankai.
considering that his Shikai can destroy entire areas its only Natural to think his Bankai could do 10x as much damage as that and that was wut happened with WW.
fact is we will never know why Yama didn't just use his Bankai and destroy the entire town with Aizen in it.
fact is i think its just plot induced stupidity.
the same stupidity that plagued Shunsui,Shinji,Ukitake and many more.
wut we can guess is since RJ has a Offencive shikai then the Bankai will maximize that.
while KS is more used for illusions and tricks wich Aizen's Bankai would maximize that.
fact is i just don't think Aizen would be able to beat a fully released RJ wich i think can destroy entire cities easily

That was definitely not bankai, it was solely and exclusively the result from the flames which yama prepared. The attack yama was going to prepare obviously would have been drastically different from the explosion.


7
Yamamoto: ...What do you mean by that?
Aizen: ...I suggest you think back. / Remember my words. // I told you, did I not? // Extinguir... // ...was created for the sole purpose of sealing the flames of Ryuujin Jakka. // To "seal" the flames... // ...in other words, to trap them within the blade itself, so that it can bring forth no more. // However. // Are those the only flames worthy of your consideration? // I do believe... // ...there was a significant volume of flames that had already been released from your blade. // ...Now, then...

8
Aizen: Where do you think... // ...those flames were sealed?

9
Aizen: You are no fool... // ...Captain-Commander of the Gotei 13. // I'm sure you can imagine... / ...just what would happen... // ...if all the flames that you had produced... // ...were to burst forth once more in a single instant.
Bold part is important. It talks exclusively about flames which at the time were not inside of RJ. It refers exclusively to flames which were outside of it.
Also the flames of hell are specifically shown in a frame in this page.
http://mangastream.com/read/bleach/395-71/8
[hr]

If Yama with bankai is unable to win easily against Aizen's unreleased sword, Aizen with shikai (let alone bankai and hollow powers) can curbstomp Yama and WW's role in the story becomes moot.

Aizen's words and his reluctance to confront Yama make the story more consistent. (hence his escape at the end of SS arc and creating WW) I think we must be thankful for the explanation instead of trying to make the story more inconsistent. We must give Kubo some space instead of questioning his decision with our insufficient information about Aizen, Kubo will explain it when the right time comes.



If we took Aizen's words about Yama lightly, we wouldn't be having this discussion. :)

Problem is that yama with bankai is likely to have a similar problem as if he used shikai. He still would not know where aizen is nor whether he is kicking the crap of all the thin air around -unless it can hit anything indiscriminately anywhere in a 100 mile radius-. Still, I have no idea of what it is, how it works and what it can do -nor do you- so I have not considered it at all in my previous posts.

My impression of WW was that he was made to counter the only existing threat aizen had. Why would aizen risk a fight where his chances of winning are merely 50/50 or less when he can device a hell of a strategy and significantly increase his chances? Aizen is without a doubt the greatest strategy out there and he certainly has it in him to take his time to plan stuff -just consider he started doing crap 100 years ago and didn't mobilize until around a few months ago-, if waiting some time can improve his chances of winning and give him some good lolz he would certainly do it.

thedarkoneaox
March 12, 2010, 01:50 PM
Listen Im just gonna drop some facts not getting into anyones arguement. But first the whole fight with Shunsui, ukitake, and Yamma that is a horrible way to make a point. Anyone who says well they held their own is sadly wrong, they didnt... Yamma did not even try to hurt them because even though he is supposed to be hard on anyone who breaks the rules he was surely hesitant to burn them to a crisp. Most of the time they spent talking. Shunsui, and Ukitake didnt even want to even draw their swords let alone go shikai against him, he even told them talk was useless. And all this because they saved Rukia... Now even if you used that which as I just stated Yamma hesitated to hurt them, you have to add into the factor that when everything was said and done that Aizen was the one who set everything in motion. So now you got Aizen not only tried to get Rukia killed, got half of Yamma 13 squads fighting, plus humans fighting his 13 squads which Aizen set up also, he's done faked his death, cut down Hits, stabbed Himori, hurt Renji, Byak, and Kom. Not only that he turned and defected to the side they've been fighting for years... Notice their wasnt much convo and he trapped them inside fire in secs. Even Gin said oh he must be in a bad mood or something along those lines... man watch someone dispute this when I got both the manga and the anime up at the same time as Im telling this.
So point blank in a enclosed space Aizen vs Yamma, no chance. Even if Aizen does have hollow powers he would NeVEr consent to such a suicide mission. I dont think even Kenpachi would just jump into that, maybe 2nd form hollow Ichigo but thats because he's I need a gov check crazy... 14 years old with a helmet, rollerblades, necktie, and diaper on crazy...

Gran Maestro
March 12, 2010, 02:05 PM
My impression of WW was that he was made to counter the only existing threat aizen had. Why would aizen risk a fight where his chances of winning are merely 50/50 or less when he can device a hell of a strategy and significantly increase his chances? Aizen is without a doubt the greatest strategy out there and he certainly has it in him to take his time to plan stuff -just consider he started doing crap 100 years ago and didn't mobilize until around a few months ago-, if waiting some time can improve his chances of winning and give him some good lolz he would certainly do it.

That's right, Aizen created WW to significantly improve his chances. (from "probably losing" to "most certainly winning") It was good strategy but I think only the scientists (Mayuri and Urahara) can counter such a move, not ordinary soldiers like Yama or others. We know that the bodies in Szayel's lab are very important for the plot, perhaps they'll be part of a strategy which will hinder Aizen's plans in some way.

vizardichigo
March 12, 2010, 03:55 PM
The fact that WW was created means that he knew jis chances were not 50/50, but less.....All in all Aizen can beat Yama jii, i think we can all agree on that BUT the is a greater chance of Yama winning than Yama....Its all about probablity.....IMO Yama is slightly stronger than Aizen...The margin is not wide at all, but it is wide enough for Yama to have the advantage.....I say its about 60/40 in Yama;s favor...

@ kkck i dont the overpowering part should be taken as the concrete meaning after all most translations didnt say overpower...The general statement that should be taken from all translations is that were we to fight, most likely i wiould lose...Even if you stick to that 1 translation that says he would be overpowered, that is an admission that he is weaker...If someone overpowers KS that means that even with illusions, he would be still probably lose because if the flames are wide enough, there will be no where to run.....If Aizen was confident that KS would counter RJ offensive abilities then he would have said that while your RJ is strongre, my KS makes me able to fight against you evenly blah blah..In none of the translation did Aizen say RJ was stronger but KS's illusions are enough to trick Yama so we are even...All of them said said he would lose, be overpowered, Yama had more battle prowess etc.....

Aizen even said that Yama was the strongest...That coming from Aizen means alot...I do think however that Aizen is smarter and would win due to that...But in a 1 v 1 fight, no WW, no tricks Zan v zan, kidou v kidou, etc Yama would shave it slightly....

CBlitz
March 12, 2010, 07:01 PM
Honestly if it were a straight up fight between Yama and Aizen with no one else around, Yama would Aizenstomp Aizen. Just go bankai and blow everything within a 500-mile radius to smithereens lol

I doubt even Aizen could troll his way out of that. Besides Aizen admitted to Yama's superiority in combat, so its pretty much canon now

tobeulp
March 12, 2010, 07:35 PM
There is no meaning in reasoning out of Aizen Fanatics for them Aizen is GOD... Aizen even said that Yama is stronger and they still say that Aizen will kick Yama's ass...

kkck
March 12, 2010, 07:58 PM
Aizen Fans Are WAAAAAAY more Retarded Then Sasuke Fans

Ur Master Clearly Stated Yama Being Strong, And Further Implied That without WW, HE would Get RoflHumiliatedFtwDestructedpwnt By Yama..

This is the Scenario for Aizen Fanboys
Aizen Uses Ks, Makes Yama think Aizen Is infront of him, Yama Stabs, Aizen lolshunpos behind yama and Slits his throat ..
But What these Guys Fail to consider is, Yama Having a Flame Shield Around him , Or Jus Going OMGWTF Hell Fire On The Whole Planet.

Well, They will ignore every possible difending Factor Yama Has, E.G. They would Say, Aizen would Make Yama THINK He Unleashed his Zanpaktou flames, Then Aizen LolGoes in for the kill

But Heres the Scenario We Are Discussing
Yama Vs Aizen:
In A Arena, Both Swords Sealed Before the fight (I.E. YAMA IS NOT UNDER KS INFLUENCE)
Both @ 100% With No one To Protect (this Applies to yama)
No Arrancars/FireExtinguishers/BackStabbers or SS Forces Present
All Out Fight!

Now, Lets discuss this, And Please tell me who will win
What shield of flames are you talking about? yama has yet to show such a thing -unsealing his sword does bring forth a lot of flames but that is hardly a shield-. It is possible yama can cover himself in flames and use it to defend but how in the world would he attack in such case? Would yama be able to see through said shield of flames and make accurate attacks? Even if he isn't under KS, attacking randomly without seeing would result in his chances of hitting something being about as good as if he was under KS.

Even if the fight starts with both of them having sealed swords and without yama being under the illusion, what are the odds he won't look at the release of the sword? Aizen is a strong dude, his release takes no time at all and yama knows he is dangerous, provided he doesn't know about the illusion he will definitely look quite intensively at the release to try and figure as soon as possible. Lets see what happens if the releases are a secret at the start of the fight.

Yama releases
Aizen: FUCKKKKKK! That is a lot of fire... he certainly has quite some attack power and probably range. **that much is evident and reasonable when a huge column of fire erupts from the sword**

Aizen releases
Yama: WTF? His release is probably an ability, I'd better be careful **The absolute most which could be discerned from a release not doing anything at all**

IMHO yama would need overwhelming amounts of luck to not get caught in the illusion if he does not know about it.

exacta
March 12, 2010, 08:50 PM
that's true, but don't forget that aizen is a kido master no less than yamamoto. if yama didn't jump on ww aizen would simply bombard him with kido + bankai + mask + hollow release, while yama wasn't even able to go shikai, let alone bankai. without his AoE RJ attacks there's no way he would kill aizen.

btw, since when is ichigo a professional about injuries? the only one's who recieved substantial damage out of captain level shinigami were Hachi and Soifon, nobody else. shinji and shunsui both had wide slashes on their backs but it appears that they fought aizen shows us that they weren't bothered by those attacks. (koma doesn't count he is even bigger failure than ukitake, even at his max he is weakest)

but I agree it was Aizen's squad vs SS, Ryoka and Vizard army. Aizen won against them.
Well, Aizen is certainly pretty good at kido, but I dont think I would say hes neccessarily on his level......Aizen's already said in a direct fight Yama would win, and I assume that means kidou too.

Plus, Yamamoto just used a level 96 hadou without an incantation, and it looks like it was about as destructive as lanza del relampago. Maybe more, have to wait til the anime to compare properly. Kurohitsugi was a different spell, but still, Yama's kidou skills are scary lol.

I hope he's not better at kidou than Tessai. I'm sure he at least can't use the forbidden techniques.....not like he would if he could lol, Yama's such a tightass.

kkck
March 12, 2010, 09:02 PM
Well, Aizen is certainly pretty good at kido, but I dont think I would say hes neccessarily on his level......Aizen's already said in a direct fight Yama would win, and I assume that means kidou too.

Plus, Yamamoto just used a level 96 hadou without an incantation, and it looks like it was about as destructive as lanza del relampago. Maybe more, have to wait til the anime to compare properly. Kurohitsugi was a different spell, but still, Yama's kidou skills are scary lol.

I hope he's not better at kidou than Tessai. I'm sure he at least can't use the forbidden techniques.....not like he would if he could lol, Yama's such a tightass.

It is hard to say on the kido thing. Aizen used a kido of the 93th level but by his standards it was a failure due to it not achieving a third of its intended power. If this is a constant in his kido of that level and yama used a 96th level spell with the amount of power he intended in the state he was in then it is very likely yama is actually better at kido. Of course, if the thing were aizen used a failed 90th level failed kido was a rarity then it is very likely they are equal. I don't think either yama or aizen are even close in terms of kido to tessai (while I do think he would be overpowered by both of them). I also don't think the spell yama used was nearly as powerful as lanza. It is far to small and far to improvised for such a thing. Lanza was comparable in size to las noches even in spite of the distance to it while yama's kido easily fitted in FKT which in a worst case scenario is as big as las noches (IMHO you could put a few FKT in las noches though)

Zatono
March 12, 2010, 10:01 PM
I can't believe how much I'm seeing Aizen's words twisted and turned into so many different shapes and forms. I like Aizen myself, but you people are making me start to hate him.

He said that in a straight fight, Yama would probably win. Now, everyone is saying that a suicidal attack was Yama's only hope to defeat Aizen, when that's wrong. It's just the attack that would have the highest probability of killing Aizen. Why would Yama go head to head against him and take such an unnecessary risk? Even if the chance of losing is small, there's no need to take the risk, especially in this case.

Also, I love how in the latest chapter the master of tricks got tricked by an old man. Get em' Yama.

Raizen
March 12, 2010, 10:19 PM
It is hard to say on the kido thing. Aizen used a kido of the 93th level but by his standards it was a failure due to it not achieving a third of its intended power. If this is a constant in his kido of that level and yama used a 96th level spell with the amount of power he intended in the state he was in then it is very likely yama is actually better at kido. Of course, if the thing were aizen used a failed 90th level failed kido was a rarity then it is very likely they are equal. I don't think either yama or aizen are even close in terms of kido to tessai (while I do think he would be overpowered by both of them). I also don't think the spell yama used was nearly as powerful as lanza. It is far to small and far to improvised for such a thing. Lanza was comparable in size to las noches even in spite of the distance to it while yama's kido easily fitted in FKT which in a worst case scenario is as big as las noches (IMHO you could put a few FKT in las noches though)
i personally think that Yamamoto is much more skilled in kido than tessai. Tessai has yet to show any offensive kido except the one used against aizen and that was blocked w/o any trouble AT ALL

Another thing, u are clearly underestimating that kido spell. Note that yama was injured so his SP has plummeted not to mention his control over it has also plummeted greatly. Lanza to me was nothing impressive. Yama could catch that in his hands just as eaily if not more so than hollow ichi.

And u also stated that aizen's zanpaktou is quick to release. i don't see that as the case. Yama knows about its abilities. i doubt he would just stare at it. Also, it is stated that it is like a ritual. It takes time to take effect. Otherwise, why not use it on ichi if it was that easy

kkck
March 12, 2010, 11:05 PM
i personally think that Yamamoto is much more skilled in kido than tessai. Tessai has yet to show any offensive kido except the one used against aizen and that was blocked w/o any trouble AT ALL

Another thing, u are clearly underestimating that kido spell. Note that yama was injured so his SP has plummeted not to mention his control over it has also plummeted greatly. Lanza to me was nothing impressive. Yama could catch that in his hands just as eaily if not more so than hollow ichi.

And u also stated that aizen's zanpaktou is quick to release. i don't see that as the case. Yama knows about its abilities. i doubt he would just stare at it. Also, it is stated that it is like a ritual. It takes time to take effect. Otherwise, why not use it on ichi if it was that easy

Well, aizen did use a kido which seems to block any spell beneath level 90 for no good reason. Tessai also seemed to underestimate aizen considering he did show considerable surprise that a mere VC used such a spell. Now, the reason I think tessai is more skilled than aizen at kido is because when he did use a level 99 bakudo he did it fast, non chant and it had all of it's intended power while aizen used a spell 6 levels beneath and it barely reached a third of its power. Now, I do think aizen has it in him to overpower tessai with kido even in spite of the difference in skill. Aizen simply has that much more reiatsu meaning even his failed kido could have more power than one full powered one from tessai.

I guess we just have a different impression of how big lanza was. IMHO las noches itself is already tens of miles across meaning lanza being comparable in size also has similar proportions. Yama's kido was something which more than easily fit inside FKT, nothing but a small town (I would think you could fit several FKT in las noches considering how huge the buildings inside were; it even seemed to have town like (http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/262/15/) things inside lol). Since the explosion from ulquiorra was MUCH bigger it logically has to be the more powerful otherwise it would not actually be bigger. Then again, the kido from yama might not have been an explosion per say but somethin different which caused a different kind of damage (perhaps a column of very hot fire for instance) meaning that comparing it to an explosion is not all appropriate.

Now, when I said that I meant it in an scenario different from the one in the manga. In the scenario for that post neither yama nor aizen have information regarding the other. In a fight against anyone but aizen, not looking at a release is most unwise to say the least. If aizen is going to release the logical thing to do when you have no information is look at the release and try to figure out what sort of power it might have in order to not get caught of guard. The problem is that looking at aizen's release will cause you trouble. Now, as for how long it takes to release KS, it is a extremely short time. You can try it yourself, just read this out loud: Kyoka Suigetsu.

Raizen
March 12, 2010, 11:43 PM
Well, aizen did use a kido which seems to block any spell beneath level 90 for no good reason. Tessai also seemed to underestimate aizen considering he did show considerable surprise that a mere VC used such a spell. Now, the reason I think tessai is more skilled than aizen at kido is because when he did use a level 99 bakudo he did it fast, non chant and it had all of it's intended power while aizen used a spell 6 levels beneath and it barely reached a third of its power. Now, I do think aizen has it in him to overpower tessai with kido even in spite of the difference in skill. Aizen simply has that much more reiatsu meaning even his failed kido could have more power than one full powered one from tessai.

I guess we just have a different impression of how big lanza was. IMHO las noches itself is already tens of miles across meaning lanza being comparable in size also has similar proportions. Yama's kido was something which more than easily fit inside FKT, nothing but a small town (I would think you could fit several FKT in las noches considering how huge the buildings inside were; it even seemed to have town like (http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/262/15/) things inside lol). Since the explosion from ulquiorra was MUCH bigger it logically has to be the more powerful otherwise it would not actually be bigger. Then again, the kido from yama might not have been an explosion per say but somethin different which caused a different kind of damage (perhaps a column of very hot fire for instance) meaning that comparing it to an explosion is not all appropriate.

Now, when I said that I meant it in an scenario different from the one in the manga. In the scenario for that post neither yama nor aizen have information regarding the other. In a fight against anyone but aizen, not looking at a release is most unwise to say the least. If aizen is going to release the logical thing to do when you have no information is look at the release and try to figure out what sort of power it might have in order to not get caught of guard. The problem is that looking at aizen's release will cause you trouble. Now, as for how long it takes to release KS, it is a extremely short time. You can try it yourself, just read this out loud: Kyoka Suigetsu.
1. Kido depends on the SP of the user. The more SP the stronger the spells. Tessai used teh kido against someone that he must have thought took down numerous captains and VC. It would be follish to hold back.
And waht Aizen used was a kido, not hado. Kido is offensive and hado is like binding spell, right? lol. I do think tessai's skills in kido are greater than aizen. I was arguing that it isn't stronger than the CC yamamoto.

2. If lanza was as big as u claimed, then ichi's friends would have been caught in the blast. It didn't. Most of what I saw was just force blowing up dust. If the explosion was that great, then when hollow ichi broke it, the explosion should still cause quite a blast. What i want to focus on is that the blast did not produce as big of a blast as u claim.

3. LOL i know how fast saying the word is, I was saying that it takes time for suigetsu to start working and affecting the opponent. KS's release is described as a ritual. A ritual to me takes time. Not something that can be cast fast

hajialibaig
March 12, 2010, 11:54 PM
I can't believe how much I'm seeing Aizen's words twisted and turned into so many different shapes and forms. I like Aizen myself, but you people are making me start to hate him.

He said that in a straight fight, Yama would probably win. Now, everyone is saying that a suicidal attack was Yama's only hope to defeat Aizen, when that's wrong. It's just the attack that would have the highest probability of killing Aizen. Why would Yama go head to head against him and take such an unnecessary risk? Even if the chance of losing is small, there's no need to take the risk, especially in this case.

Also, I love how in the latest chapter the master of tricks got tricked by an old man. Get em' Yama.

Yea, if Yama needn't protect anyone around him he'd turn anyone around him to oblivion by going bankai. Doesn't matter if have a haxxed ability, you'll simply get over powered and die
[hr]

Well, aizen did use a kido which seems to block any spell beneath level 90 for no good reason. Tessai also seemed to underestimate aizen considering he did show considerable surprise that a mere VC used such a spell. Now, the reason I think tessai is more skilled than aizen at kido is because when he did use a level 99 bakudo he did it fast, non chant and it had all of it's intended power while aizen used a spell 6 levels beneath and it barely reached a third of its power. Now, I do think aizen has it in him to overpower tessai with kido even in spite of the difference in skill. Aizen simply has that much more reiatsu meaning even his failed kido could have more power than one full powered one from tessai.


Comparing bakudo's to hadou's is like comparing bananas to apples..both are different and require different levels of control. I think hadou's are much more difficult to master since they require the user to generate immense amounts of power, thus, it is really taxing on the user, and hence, why some fail to even produce 1/3 of their power, (like Aizen)

El Samurai Guapo
March 13, 2010, 12:11 AM
That hadou #96 was not an explosion. Pay attention to the shape of it, it was a giant flame katana...and it's easily more powerful than lanza del relampago.

kkck
March 13, 2010, 12:38 AM
1. Kido depends on the SP of the user. The more SP the stronger the spells. Tessai used teh kido against someone that he must have thought took down numerous captains and VC. It would be follish to hold back.
And waht Aizen used was a kido, not hado. Kido is offensive and hado is like binding spell, right? lol. I do think tessai's skills in kido are greater than aizen. I was arguing that it isn't stronger than the CC yamamoto.

2. If lanza was as big as u claimed, then ichi's friends would have been caught in the blast. It didn't. Most of what I saw was just force blowing up dust. If the explosion was that great, then when hollow ichi broke it, the explosion should still cause quite a blast. What i want to focus on is that the blast did not produce as big of a blast as u claim.

3. LOL i know how fast saying the word is, I was saying that it takes time for suigetsu to start working and affecting the opponent. KS's release is described as a ritual. A ritual to me takes time. Not something that can be cast fast

1.- Kido refers to any special usage of reiatsu, not offensive spell. Hado is a offensive form of kido and bakudo is the binding spell. On a separate note, a few bakudo have been used which have nothing to do with actual binding so I would think that even though bakudo literally means binding ways -or something of the sort- it also includes anything that is not hado. There is a difference in skill and power. Someone who has skill in kido can use high level spells with high efficiency -most extreme case would be a level 99 spell at 100% with no incantation-. Now, since skill would be a matter of efficiency rather than actual amount of reiatsu, it is more than plausible that tessai is more skilled than aizen or yama at using kido while his spells would be less powerful. I do not question yama is more powerful than tessai in the least nor that his spells would certainly pack more power, I just think tessai's skill with kido are overall more varied and greater (basically he has less mere captain level reiatsu). Basically this:

Tessai with a level 99 spell would reach 100% of its intended power with no incantation.

Yama with a level 99 spell would reach 85% of its intended power with no incantation.

**note I do not want to discuss the technicalities of using or not using the chant, I am merely making a point**

In this scenario yama would still trash tessai simply because his 85% is many times tessai's 100%


2.- Why would they have been caught in the blast? The explosion was just that far away. As for the second one, ulquiorra seemed to intend to use it as a close range weapon rather than a missile. I would think that is the reason it didn't explode, ulquiorra simply was using it for another purpose.

3.- I don't see why it would take long for the sword to start working. Take the barragan scene. Mere seconds after seeing the sword half his subordinates were dead and barragan never suspected. I don't see why such a thing would be any different against yama. It might be a ritual but the ritual consists merely of seeing the release. Normally, a release does not take even a second. Considering KS does not even change form, I would think it is even shorter than the average fraction of a second.

Gran Maestro
March 13, 2010, 08:03 AM
Aizen used a kido of the 93th level but by his standards it was a failure due to it not achieving a third of its intended power.

Aizen used Hadou #90, not #93.

http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/176/11/


Comparing bakudo's to hadou's is like comparing bananas to apples..both are different and require different levels of control. I think hadou's are much more difficult to master since they require the user to generate immense amounts of power, thus, it is really taxing on the user, and hence, why some fail to even produce 1/3 of their power, (like Aizen)

I agree. For example, IMO casting hadou #90 is harder than casting bakudo #90. I don't have any manga evidence but this is the impression I got.

Anyway, Aizen failed to cast a #90 properly whereas Yama apparently cast #96 successfully. It seems Yama's kidou skills are far superior than Aizen's. I have no idea how he compares to Tessai.

Primecut
March 13, 2010, 09:00 AM
Put Aizen and Yama on a field with no one around, say go.

Yama: Don't think you can beat me...

Aizen: I don't think I can beat you. I already have.

Yama: Don't make me...(wants to finish his sentence and say laugh but notices something is wrong.)

Yama's head falls off because Aizen was cutting his head off while making it appear like Yama was in a conversation with him. He was also masking Yamamoto's pain during the decapitation, if there were any, Aizen can clearly decapitate him in a second since he can cut him.

That's what Aizen can do if he really wants to beat him without fighting him head on. In the manga he wasnt using his illusions at all on him and tried fighting him directly until Yama went kamikazi.

Fact: Aizen can cut Yama
Fact: Yama's senses are all controlled by Yama.

Therefore, this scenario is most likely if Aizen wants to go straight for the kill. Yama is actually lucky he knows what KS does, if he didnt, he'd lose even worse.

BaddAzzKenpachi74
March 13, 2010, 09:38 AM
Put Aizen and Yama on a field with no one around, say go.

Yama: Don't think you can beat me...

Aizen: I don't think I can beat you. I already have.

Yama: Don't make me...(wants to finish his sentence and say laugh but notices something is wrong.)

Yama's head falls off because Aizen was cutting his head off while making it appear like Yama was in a conversation with him. He was also masking Yamamoto's pain during the decapitation, if there were any, Aizen can clearly decapitate him in a second since he can cut him.

That's what Aizen can do if he really wants to beat him without fighting him head on. In the manga he wasnt using his illusions at all on him and tried fighting him directly until Yama went kamikazi.

Fact: Aizen can cut Yama
Fact: Yama's senses are all controlled by Yama.

Therefore, this scenario is most likely if Aizen wants to go straight for the kill. Yama is actually lucky he knows what KS does, if he didnt, he'd lose even worse.
ok you wana play it that way.:amuse
put Yamma and Aizen on a field no WW around

Aizen-silly old man you think you can beat me.
Yama-................
Aizen-i will be the god of the new world and blah blah blah
Yama-silly Child "releases RJ while Aizen is still talking"
Aizen-wtf before he even has a chance to pull out KS
Yama-BURN!!!!
Aizen is disintegrated with the whole area he was in:p

Bromamura
March 13, 2010, 10:18 AM
Put Aizen and Yama on a field with no one around, say go.

Yama: Don't think you can beat me...

Aizen: I don't think I can beat you. I already have.

Yama: Don't make me...(wants to finish his sentence and say laugh but notices something is wrong.)

Yama's head falls off because Aizen was cutting his head off while making it appear like Yama was in a conversation with him. He was also masking Yamamoto's pain during the decapitation, if there were any, Aizen can clearly decapitate him in a second since he can cut him.

That's what Aizen can do if he really wants to beat him without fighting him head on. In the manga he wasnt using his illusions at all on him and tried fighting him directly until Yama went kamikazi.

Fact: Aizen can cut Yama
Fact: Yama's senses are all controlled by Yama.

Therefore, this scenario is most likely if Aizen wants to go straight for the kill. Yama is actually lucky he knows what KS does, if he didnt, he'd lose even worse.
Sorry mate but I'm afraid your post belongs here (http://mangahelpers.com/forum/forumdisplay.php?f=84) ...To think you'd become desperate enough to try and write Kubo's own story for him. Unfortunately manga canon>>>>your imagination.

jaymizzo
March 13, 2010, 05:46 PM
Lol.. Guys, A Fair Fight Is When No One Is Under KS lol
All Aizen Fans Rely on this one little thing called "AizenMakesYouThink"


Again Kckk Dont Ignore This Scenario
Aizen Vs Yamamoto

In a Remote Planet,
Yama Is not under Ks, Both Users Have Theyre Swords Sealed.
All Full On Reiatsu
No Injuries
No Back-up
No WW


Now Using This Scenario Determine the winner

IMO Yama Wins Hands Down. Aizen Doesnt have anything on Yama, His Kido Can be Countered, And His Zanpaktou IS EXTREMELY useless If u Dont See the release or Ur not under it (And If u have Less Reiatsu then Him *this was Ultimate plotkai lol* )

Sidenote: If You Read Naruto Kckk, Sasuke Was Able to use Amatesaru As a Shield And Was still Able to attack Regardless..

I Dont Have Canon On Saying that Yama Can Do that, But If he indeed Can Control His Flames To The Extent im hopeing, Then he wouldnt have a problem forming a flame Susano'o

kkck
March 13, 2010, 06:52 PM
Lol.. Guys, A Fair Fight Is When No One Is Under KS lol
All Aizen Fans Rely on this one little thing called "AizenMakesYouThink"


Again Kckk Dont Ignore This Scenario
Aizen Vs Yamamoto

In a Remote Planet,
Yama Is not under Ks, Both Users Have Theyre Swords Sealed.
All Full On Reiatsu
No Injuries
No Back-up
No WW


Now Using This Scenario Determine the winner

IMO Yama Wins Hands Down. Aizen Doesnt have anything on Yama, His Kido Can be Countered, And His Zanpaktou IS EXTREMELY useless If u Dont See the release or Ur not under it (And If u have Less Reiatsu then Him *this was Ultimate plotkai lol* )

Sidenote: If You Read Naruto Kckk, Sasuke Was Able to use Amatesaru As a Shield And Was still Able to attack Regardless..

I Dont Have Canon On Saying that Yama Can Do that, But If he indeed Can Control His Flames To The Extent im hopeing, Then he wouldnt have a problem forming a flame Susano'o



I already wrote a few posts under the scenario you mention though. Anyways, I think you are ignoring something important. Obviously if yama knows what KS can do he won't look at it but in the scenario you describe the logical thing would be that neither yama nor aizen know what the other can do. Would yama not look at aizen's sword release when he announces it? Of course not, the reasonable thing to do in a fight is to pay attention to a release and figure as soon as possible in order to counter. Naturally, this is the worst possible course of action against KS but in turn it is the most likely one when you are not familiar with it. It is when yama does not know about KS that he is in the most vulnerable.

Now, the main problem I would see with a flame shield would be that yama's fire is more akin to regular fire than something like amaterasu. Amaterasu shield was effective because the flame is inextinguishable and sasuke could just see through it since it stuck to the amaterasu bones. I don't think yama's flame fall into the inextinguishable category. A flame shield on yama's part would also most likely also limit his sight which is not such a good idea.

On another note, people here make it seem as if yama can't even be approached. That is not the case at all, shunsui, ukitake and aizen showed it was more than possible to fight with yama in close range and not get roasted. If yama was really like this even putting aizen under the fire prison was absurd or starting a kamikaze attack was a pointless more on yama's part. If yama really was as strong as people here make it seem, he would have just roasted aizen from the start instead of sealing him under a fire prison. Every single move yama made indicates he did not have the capacity to one shot aizen as everyone here seems to think. He was well aware of how strong the guy was and refused to take risks making every possible thing he could in order to reduce aizen's chances of winning as much as he could. Yama is not one shooting aizen as much people here seem to think, as long as aizen has at least a comparable reiatsu he has a decent chance.

jaymizzo
March 13, 2010, 07:29 PM
I already wrote a few posts under the scenario you mention though. Anyways, I think you are ignoring something important. Obviously if yama knows what KS can do he won't look at it but in the scenario you describe the logical thing would be that neither yama nor aizen know what the other can do. Would yama not look at aizen's sword release when he announces it? Of course not, the reasonable thing to do in a fight is to pay attention to a release and figure as soon as possible in order to counter. Naturally, this is the worst possible course of action against KS but in turn it is the most likely one when you are not familiar with it. It is when yama does not know about KS that he is in the most vulnerable.

Now, the main problem I would see with a flame shield would be that yama's fire is more akin to regular fire than something like amaterasu. Amaterasu shield was effective because the flame is inextinguishable and sasuke could just see through it since it stuck to the amaterasu bones. I don't think yama's flame fall into the inextinguishable category. A flame shield on yama's part would also most likely also limit his sight which is not such a good idea.

On another note, people here make it seem as if yama can't even be approached. That is not the case at all, shunsui, ukitake and aizen showed it was more than possible to fight with yama in close range and not get roasted. If yama was really like this even putting aizen under the fire prison was absurd or starting a kamikaze attack was a pointless more on yama's part. If yama really was as strong as people here make it seem, he would have just roasted aizen from the start instead of sealing him under a fire prison. Every single move yama made indicates he did not have the capacity to one shot aizen as everyone here seems to think. He was well aware of how strong the guy was and refused to take risks making every possible thing he could in order to reduce aizen's chances of winning as much as he could. Yama is not one shooting aizen as much people here seem to think, as long as aizen has at least a comparable reiatsu he has a decent chance.

Good post :p.. But, we both know the reason yama dint try to 1 shot aizen..
99% was coz of ks... But he has proven tht he could kill aizen,, and aizen himself said so

btw good reply atleast u think about ur repplies unlike some fans :p

BaddAzzKenpachi74
March 14, 2010, 12:01 PM
Good post :p.. But, we both know the reason yama dint try to 1 shot aizen..
99% was coz of ks... But he has proven tht he could kill aizen,, and aizen himself said so

btw good reply atleast u think about ur repplies unlike some fans :p
yea Kkck is 1 of the VERY few Aizen fans who actually posts reasonable replies.:amuse
but still i can't help finding myself disagreeing with him since he still thinks Aizen could beat Yama despite manga FACTS proving that Yama would win.:D
hell Aizen even said so himeself:p
but no one here thinks that Yama will 1 shot Aizen at all "atleast i don't".
i'm positive Aizen would have a VERY good chance at winning.
but overall i think Yama would win regardless of KS

Gran Maestro
March 14, 2010, 01:07 PM
yea Kkck is 1 of the VERY few Aizen fans who actually posts reasonable replies.:amuse
but still i can't help finding myself disagreeing with him since he still thinks Aizen could beat Yama despite manga FACTS proving that Yama would win.:D
hell Aizen even said so himeself:p
but no one here thinks that Yama will 1 shot Aizen at all "atleast i don't".
i'm positive Aizen would have a VERY good chance at winning.
but overall i think Yama would win regardless of KS

I agree, I don't think Yama can one-shot Aizen. Aizen said that he would probably lose, otherwise he would say "I don't stand a chance against you."

Of course, one can argue that Aizen was overrating his chances because he was too proud to admit vast inferiority but I believe Aizen's words were as close to the truth as it could get.

Gcat88
March 17, 2010, 11:47 AM
Honestly i also thought that Yama could beat Aizen, and he would have if it wasnt for WW, but due to certain circumstances Aizen might have won this time.

Eddy01741
March 17, 2010, 12:54 PM
I think Yama could beat Aizen, he just has enough reiatsu and brute strength to do it. If you all noticed, Aizen never once used his shikai on yama throughout the entire manga, perhaps Yama is just so strong hat his shikai would be ineffective (much like Aizen was so strong that Soi Fon's shikai was ineffective). Plus, even with Aizen's shikai, Yamamoto controls fire, and could in all likelihood surround himself with fire, as well as use fire attacks that spread in all directions, making it very hard for Aizen to attack.

All that said, Aizen's making WW a RJ absorber/bomb was pretty smart by him, take out the only threat to his power (like seriously, what was the point of the esapdas now, he destroyed all the captains anyways) with a specialized arrancar, sure it's a dumbass, but it absorbed all of RJ, and then released it upon death, forcing Yama out of the battle.

Rainl
March 17, 2010, 01:03 PM
Honestly i also thought that Yama could beat Aizen, and he would have if it wasnt for WW, but due to certain circumstances Aizen might have won this time.

It's called a "plot-shield". Tell me, what prevented Yamamoto from simply punching a hole through Aizen's cranium when he captured him? Absolutely nothing, but of course, no one aside from Ichigo is allowed to beat him.

At this point I don't even see a way that Aizen can actually even cause Yamamoto pain. Do you people realize what it took to actually "hurt" Yamamoto?

http://www.mangatoshokan.com/read/Bleach/1/395/16

--"and an area many times the size of this town".

Do you know what type of durability that puts Yamamoto on? Yamamoto survived that and was still capable of utilizing a 96 hadou. Aizen beat Yamamoto? That's simply a joke now. KS? That's nice. It won't do much if your opponent won't even flinch at your attacks anyways. Hell when Aizen stabbed him in chapter 393 Yamamoto just took that shit and grinned.

What can Aizen do? Try to utilize his illusions and come in to attack Yamamoto? Please. With that he runs the risk of simply being captured by Yamamoto again then he's simply screwed with no way out since he won't even being able to cause Yamamoto any pain with that initial attack.

What else can Aizen do? Play keep away? Lolwut. Too bad Ryuujin Jakka has absurd range. Also aside from the fact that also Aizen has demonstrated no method of attacking from a distance. What? Black Coffin? Sorry, that gets tanked.

No. Yamamoto is simply out of Aizen's league from a one-on-one perspective. As revealed through feats and statements from the author. Get over it.

Primecut
March 17, 2010, 01:08 PM
Aizen just KS dodges everything Yama has while chipping away at him until Yama is in the retirement home for good. End of story.

Eddy01741
March 18, 2010, 09:52 AM
Anyhow, AIzen specifically states that Yama may have more combat prowess than himself, and modded an arrancar to counter said situation, I don't see why that's not proof enough of who would win a straight up fight.

Primecut
March 18, 2010, 11:16 PM
Why do people say the orb actually boosted aizen? I thought it simply healed him, I don't recall it ever beind said to actually increase aizen's power.

It has on panel feats of boosting the powers of hollows such as Barragan (he admits Aizen gave him more power). If it can boost Barragan, it can definitely boost Aizen since Aizen is the master of it.

Richo
March 19, 2010, 05:50 AM
I think considering The last few chapters we can pretty much end this thread. Based on Aizen his words Yamamoto would defeat Aizen in a 1 v 1. Aizen himself claimed that Yama is able to kill him http://media.onemanga.com/mangas/00000003/000293322/18.jpg
This is proof enough to stop all speculation and theorizing of everyone who says aizen is able to defeat yama in a 1 v 1 fight, as Yama would have killed Aizen with the technique he was about to use (before WW nullified it).


The battle is pure; they are in a huge dome room; about 500 mile radius; and 500 miles upward; they go all out and use only themselves; and their zanpakuto to kill each other.

I understand that being commanders of armies is a huge part of their strength; but for now I'm going to exclude that.
Considering the rules and the cannon provided in the last few chapters, its a win for Yamamoto.

kkck
March 19, 2010, 06:54 AM
It has on panel feats of boosting the powers of hollows such as Barragan (he admits Aizen gave him more power). If it can boost Barragan, it can definitely boost Aizen since Aizen is the master of it.

That would make a shred of sense only if aizen had actually become a hybrid. Wasn't the orb used to further advance barragans shinigamification hence increasing his power? I don't think the orb would give aizen a shred of an increase in power if he didn't use it to hollowify himself.

Primecut
March 19, 2010, 08:43 AM
I think considering The last few chapters we can pretty much end this thread. Based on Aizen his words Yamamoto would defeat Aizen in a 1 v 1. Aizen himself claimed that Yama is able to kill him http://media.onemanga.com/mangas/00000003/000293322/18.jpg
This is proof enough to stop all speculation and theorizing of everyone who says aizen is able to defeat yama in a 1 v 1 fight, as Yama would have killed Aizen with the technique he was about to use (before WW nullified it).


Considering the rules and the cannon provided in the last few chapters, its a win for Yamamoto.

I go by feats, Aizen was able to get the jump on and impale Yamamoto. And we have Yamamoto immediately going for a kamikazi attack to avoid fighting Aizen. Then we have Yamamoto's #96 barely burning Aizen and he took it point blank. Aizen wins.

The people backing Yama...all they got is "Your Zanpakto might even be more powerful than mine". That aint good enough. That's like betting on a horse because you were told it might be the fastest before it even races. Doesnt mean you'll win, especially when the other horse has perfect hypnosis. Especially when your horse is past its prime by a couple hundred years.
[hr]

That would make a shred of sense only if aizen had actually become a hybrid. Wasn't the orb used to further advance barragans shinigamification hence increasing his power? I don't think the orb would give aizen a shred of an increase in power if he didn't use it to hollowify himself.

Well, he is the "master" of the orb now so I'm sure he can tap into it. He's already getting free heals and having Ichigo's reiatsu removed from his body. I'd consider those new powers and they are probably just the tip of the iceberg.

THM Nindo
March 19, 2010, 10:42 AM
I think it's pretty clear in the manga than Yama-ji is stronger.
Aizen is intelligent and found a way to defeat him (cheating), but Yama-ji was always stronger than him.

Gran Maestro
March 19, 2010, 11:16 AM
The only reason Aizen isn't winning the poll is because there are a lot of Aizen haters out there. It is obvious that he humiliated Yama at this point. It is no surprise, Aizen cut down the fan favorites like Hitsuguya and Shunsui with one hit and people are vindictive. They put their faith into Yama and Aizen showed em that their faith was misplaced once again.

Now after my position has been proven justified instead of admitting that Aizen is the big dog they just turned downright bitter and vehement in these kind of threads. Still, Aizen still is standing untouched and Yama is now history. I'll stand by Lord Aizen's dominance despite how the haters try to twist the story.

I think you're missing our point, read the first post of this thread:


Battle conditions

The battle is pure; they are in a huge dome room; about 500 mile radius; and 500 miles upward; they go all out and use only themselves; and their zanpakuto to kill each other.

Do you see WW in battle conditions? No.

Do you see KT that prevents Yama from going all-out in battle conditions? No.

We're talking about a fair 1 vs 1 fight, and what is happening in the story right now is totally irrelevant to conditions of this battle as stated by the original poster because Aizen never fought Yama by himself in the story, he just acknowledged that he would lose if the battle conditions were like this. This is why people say Yama wins, not because they hate Aizen. On the contrary, you seem like you hate everybody besides Aizen.

You're comparing apples with oranges. Aizen is the main antagonist and only Ichigo is allowed to defeat him in combat because he is the main protagonist. Since everybody knows that Ichigo will defeat Aizen (because the story dictates so), do you think we should say Ichigo is stronger than Aizen? We're talking about a hypothetical situation in this thread.

Primecut
March 19, 2010, 11:21 AM
I think you're missing our point, read the first post of this thread:



Do you see WW in battle conditions? No.

Do you see KT that prevents Yama from going all-out in battle conditions? No.

We're talking about a fair 1 vs 1 fight, and what is happening in the story right now is totally irrelevant to conditions of this battle as stated by the original poster because Aizen never fought Yama by himself in the story, he just acknowledged that he would lose if the battle conditions were like this. This is why people say Yama wins, not because they hate Aizen. On the contrary, you seem like you hate everybody besides Aizen.

You're comparing apples with oranges. Aizen is the main antagonist and only Ichigo is allowed to defeat him in combat because he is the main protagonist. Since everybody knows that Ichigo will defeat Aizen (because the story dictates so), do you think we should say Ichigo is stronger than Aizen? We're talking about a hypothetical situation in this thread.

Yama still can't beat KS. No one supporting Yama has come up with a plausible way he kills Aizen without killing himself also. His only canon feat is being able to kamikazi Aizen and himself at the same time. Besides, after Aizen tanked that #96 I think Aizen might have survived that kamikazi attack while Yama and the rest perished.

Gran Maestro
March 19, 2010, 11:33 AM
Yama still can't beat KS. No one supporting Yama has come up with a plausible way he kills Aizen without killing himself also. His only canon feat is being able to kamikazi Aizen and himself at the same time. Besides, after Aizen tanked that #96 I think Aizen might have survived that kamikazi attack while Yama and the rest perished.

RJ's destructive force is too much to handle, even for Aizen, as admitted by Aizen. You may disagree but it doesn't mean much because this is author's decision. You're still talking about feats which are influenced by real world's safety and WW, you know that everything will be different under different circumstances. And sadly you don't understand the power difference between the strongest zanpakuto and a kido cast by a extremely injured man. The power of kido can never compete with strong zanpakutos.

Zatono
March 19, 2010, 12:46 PM
Yama still can't beat KS. No one supporting Yama has come up with a plausible way he kills Aizen without killing himself also. His only canon feat is being able to kamikazi Aizen and himself at the same time. Besides, after Aizen tanked that #96 I think Aizen might have survived that kamikazi attack while Yama and the rest perished.

It's actually called attacking everywhere in front of him with Ryuujin Jakka. Also, you shouldn't compare Hadou 96 to RJ, considering that it's obvious that the pure destructive power is different. Personally, the only reason I think Yama even used it was to give Ichigo an opening, which he wasted.

For the rest of your argument, I'll say the same thing I've said multiple times. The Kamikaze was just the attack that would have the highest probability of killing Aizen in one shot. We're not talking about fighting in FKT, where if you don't sacrifice yourself and go all out you'll end up destroying pillars, thus voiding the reason the Shinigami are there in the first place.

They're not fighting in FKT, so Yama can go all out (with his shikai) and just start blasting flames everywhere in front of him. Aizen can't KS dodge everything. Canon itself is proof that Yama > Aizen, considering that Kubo had to go through the trouble of setting up WW just to seal off Ryuujin Jakka, since he made Yama too strong. And like usual, I'll just say again, that Aizen said Yama would beat him in a straight fight, which is what this thread is about.
[hr]
Also, about your "No one has come up with something" nonsense, here's proof. You're just ignoring posts that counter your arguments.


Obviously I was talking about Ryuujin Jakka, not a Hadou.




Um, no, he wouldn't be dead. Why would his attack suddenly come back on him? Everything in front of Yama would be incinerated, which is why WW was needed to stop that from happening, despite the http://static.mangastream.com/manga/2/76/16.pngHougyoku healing.




It's clear he's not top dog in comparison to Yama if he still felt the need to get rid of Ryuujin Jakka, despite having his shiny new power up.

Richo
March 19, 2010, 07:30 PM
Yama still can't beat KS. No one supporting Yama has come up with a plausible way he kills Aizen without killing himself also. His only canon feat is being able to kamikazi Aizen and himself at the same time. Besides, after Aizen tanked that #96 I think Aizen might have survived that kamikazi attack while Yama and the rest perished.

that sir can be considerd flame bait~~.
Anyway if you want a plausible way lets just go with the cannon as the most obvious one.
Aizen puts his zanpaktou in yama his chest, Yama holds it and does the same to Aizen. Who is the best tank of the 2 you think? Yama has already shown he can sustain huge amount of injuries without dying (I personaly doubt even kenpachi could tank that amount). According to cannon Yama was able to rip apart a arrancar with his bare hands (Their skin is tougher then roughly 95% of the shinigami). Taking this into account we can reasonably assure yama is able to cut Aizen in half without much trouble or sever his head from his body, they are in point blank range atm. please do not start on that aizen hollowified himself since he already said he didnt

If you do not think this is enough to convince ya, check zatono and my previous post:)

Bolshoi Hui
May 08, 2010, 05:02 PM
Everything depends on the conditions they are fighting and if they are acting rationally or like Kubo sometimes makes them to.

For example, in chap 393 Aizen having hypnosis advantage could ve easily chopped off Yama's head but for some odd reason preferred not to and let WW help.

But as much as I like Aizen I think that in 6 out of 10 different imaginary scenarios he is likely to lose here.

Gran Maestro
May 08, 2010, 06:45 PM
For example, in chap 393 Aizen having hypnosis advantage could ve easily chopped off Yama's head but for some odd reason preferred not to and let WW help.

I don't think Aizen can easily chop off heads, see this post (http://mangahelpers.com/forum/showthread.php?p=1899250#post1899250) for my detailed explanation. Whenever Aizen attacks, his opponent always has time to react and Aizen enrages his opponents to make them lose focus and not be able to react in time.

Bolshoi Hui
May 09, 2010, 03:00 AM
I don't think Aizen can easily chop off heads, see this post (http://mangahelpers.com/forum/showthread.php?p=1899250#post1899250) for my detailed explanation. Whenever Aizen attacks, his opponent always has time to react and Aizen enrages his opponents to make them lose focus and not be able to react in time.


OK, I've read that post of yours. But the problem I see here lies more in the mechanism of KS than situations and conditions Aizen uses it in, can his zan power guarantee him a 100% chance for a hit or not.

Yama took a sword into his stomach and then was able to catch Aizen's hand, but if Aizen aimed at his head or neck which is always better, how could Yamamoto react when being under hypnosis?

Gran Maestro
May 09, 2010, 04:07 AM
OK, I've read that post of yours. But the problem I see here lies more in the mechanism of KS than situations and conditions Aizen uses it in, can his zan power guarantee him a 100% chance for a hit or not.

I think not because otherwise why would Gin say people could oppose Aizen's KS if Aizen wasn't strong? Give Hisagi a free hit and he can kill hollow Tousen, you don't need extraordinary strength if you can chop off people's heads without giving them a chance to react.


Yama took a sword into his stomach and then was able to catch Aizen's hand, but if Aizen aimed at his head or neck which is always better, how could Yamamoto react when being under hypnosis?

Assuming that Aizen gives enough time to react, Yamamoto simply dodges the attack if it is aimed at his head. Since Aizen aimed at his stomach, he simply took the hit to proceed with his plan.

Bolshoi Hui
May 09, 2010, 04:35 AM
I think not because otherwise why would Gin say people could oppose Aizen's KS if Aizen wasn't strong? Give Hisagi a free hit and he can kill hollow Tousen, you don't need extraordinary strength if you can chop off people's heads without giving them a chance to react.

Assuming that Aizen gives enough time to react, Yamamoto simply dodges the attack if it is aimed at his head. Since Aizen aimed at his stomach, he simply took the hit to proceed with his plan.


Though Ichimaru stated that and many other things about Aizen, still no one was able to oppose KS.

Having control over 5 senses I guess it's not that difficult for Aizen to confuse Yamamoto and make it impossible for him to see real thing once again like before the attack.

I know one-shotting Yamamoto before showing what he's capable of isn't allowed but I guess the situation itself is no different from Hisagi/Tousen you've mentioned and Aizen could ve chopped off Yama's head.

Gran Maestro
May 09, 2010, 05:08 AM
Though Ichimaru stated that and many other things about Aizen, still no one was able to oppose KS.

Having control over 5 senses I guess it's not that difficult for Aizen to confuse Yamamoto and make it impossible for him to see real thing once again like before the attack.

I know one-shotting Yamamoto before showing what he's capable of isn't allowed but I guess the situation itself is no different from Hisagi/Tousen you've mentioned and Aizen could ve chopped off Yama's head.

Not only Gin. Aizen stated that he never thought he was stronger than all espada, questioning his trust in absolute power of KS. He also made a custom arrancar to fight Yamamoto; everything in the manga, Aizen, Gin and Yama's words, Aizen's actions, Aizen's fights all suggest that using KS to simply chop off heads is not as easy as it seems. The manga doesn't say he can do that, Kubo has put some limits on KS's power.

Bolshoi Hui
May 09, 2010, 05:25 AM
Not only Gin. Aizen stated that he never thought he was stronger than all espada, questioning his trust in absolute power of KS. He also made a custom arrancar to fight Yamamoto; everything in the manga, Aizen, Gin and Yama's words, Aizen's actions, Aizen's fights all suggest that using KS to simply chop off heads is not as easy as it seems. The manga doesn't say he can do that, Kubo has put some limits on KS's power.

Using such abilities is not easy and I don't say it is, apparently right timing is required.

But take anyone he used complete hypnosis on and say is it really impossible for Aizen to deliver a fatal blow instead of mere slash-scratch?

Gran Maestro
May 09, 2010, 06:02 AM
Using such abilities is not easy and I don't say it is, apparently right timing is required.

But take anyone he used complete hypnosis on and say is it really impossible for Aizen to deliver a fatal blow instead of mere slash-scratch?

Suppose that Hisagi has KS, can he defeat everybody? No, he can't. Why can't he, doesn't he enough power to kill people? He certainly does, he killed Tousen. Then what's the reason? The obvious answer is that KS doesn't provide a free hit under all circumstances. What does Aizen do to create an opening for the free hit? He makes his opponents enraged/distracted. What if his opponent is sufficiently strong and focused? Then as Gin says, he needs to defeat his opponent by other means like using overwhelming strength. What if his opponent is strong enough to overpower him? He uses other methods like custom arrancars. This is what I understand from the manga, everything fits into place.

Bolshoi Hui
May 09, 2010, 09:03 AM
Suppose that Hisagi has KS, can he defeat everybody? No, he can't. Why can't he, doesn't he enough power to kill people? He certainly does, he killed Tousen. Then what's the reason? The obvious answer is that KS doesn't provide a free hit under all circumstances. What does Aizen do to create an opening for the free hit? He makes his opponents enraged/distracted. What if his opponent is sufficiently strong and focused? Then as Gin says, he needs to defeat his opponent by other means like using overwhelming strength. What if his opponent is strong enough to overpower him? He uses other methods like custom arrancars. This is what I understand from the manga, everything fits into place.

I agree and guess it's just we're talking about different things here lol.

What I mean is let's take those specific cases when Aizen succeeded in fooling people with KS and inflicted damage.

For example, when Hitsu, Shunsui, Soi Fong and Shinji were cut.
Aizen took all 4 who were obviously unable to react and said he spares their lives.

And my point here being if Aizen is able to do that, than nothing prevents him from aiming not at those parts of the body he slashed making the blows non-lethal but at heads and throats if he is for the kill.

When your opponent doesn't know where you are it's very simple to chop his head off instead of cutting an arm.

hakuthehedgehog
May 09, 2010, 09:14 AM
When Aizen did that to the 4 captains, they were distracted, he even said they were all open.
He can't do that to an oponent who isn't distracted and angry, like Yamamoto, and he also can't overpower him, which is why Yamamoto is stronger than Aizen.

Bolshoi Hui
May 09, 2010, 10:12 AM
When Aizen did that to the 4 captains, they were distracted, he even said they were all open.
He can't do that to an oponent who isn't distracted and angry, like Yamamoto, and he also can't overpower him, which is why Yamamoto is stronger than Aizen.


Again, my point is more about parts of the body Aizen chooses to make a slash lol.

But well, having a person under KS he can distract him or her with the clone whether they want and realise it or not cause they never know whether they see real Aizen or he makes them to believe he is there.

1. Yama is talking to Aizen and thinks he is right there (http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/393/07/).

2. Then it appears that in fact Aizen is here (http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/393/08/).

3. But is it really impossible for Aizen to continue talking making Yama still believing he is there thus keeping him distracted (Yama didn't trust his eyes and feelings (http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/393/10/))
instead of saying "I have already done so" thereby giving him less time to react and catch Old man absolutely defenceless and what is more important stabbing or aiming at a vital point.

It's not about overpowering, it's about using distraction - like Shuuhei killing Tousen. Yama might dodge a stab in the head but there is a chance he won't be able to do that while Aizen stabs a stomach in such a way Yama forgets about the wound in a couple of seconds.

To sum up, I believe Aizen should always aim at vital points lol.

hakuthehedgehog
May 09, 2010, 10:20 AM
On that occasion, Yamamoto let Aizen stab him in the stomach.
Had Aizen tried to aim for his head or neck, Yamamoto would've dodged.

So, either Aizen is stupid for not aiming at vital points, or he can't sustain his illusion for too long.

Gran Maestro
May 09, 2010, 12:14 PM
Let me put it this way: If you are focused, no matter what illusion Aizen uses as a distraction, he gives you enough time to react provided that you're indeed fast enough to react. Do you remember Tousen vs Kenpachi fight, same logic.

If you lose focus and let your guard down, you no longer have enough time to react and Aizen can aim at your vital spot and kill you. Shunsui, Shinji, Soifon and Hitsugaya lost focus when Aizen tricked them and Aizen used this opening to defeat them.

Yamamoto was focused against Aizen and thus Aizen had no chance to stab Yamamoto in the head whatsoever. IMO Aizen wouldn't have been able to stab Yamamoto even in the stomach if Yamamoto tried to dodge, Yamamoto took the hit on purpose to catch Aizen.

El Samurai Guapo
May 09, 2010, 07:28 PM
How the hell do you dodge something you cannot touch, taste, see, hear, or smell?

Yamamoto was only able to sense Aizen's zanpakutou's reiatsu once Aizen put it all the way through his body. In all other cases, Aizen would be outside of Yamamoto and anyone else's realm of perception. What happened with Kaname and Kenpachi is totally different because Kaname's ability does not affect the sense of touch, whereas KS does...

...so even if someone wanted to argue that Yamamoto is so fast that as soon as he feels KS start to cut his neck he could react with his sense of touch and dodge it, I'm afraid that wouldn't work. With KS, it's entirely up to Aizen whether someone even feels the pain of being sliced or not. When you control every single one of someone's senses anything is possible. Aizen could make you believe you just got cut in half (when in reality you didn't) and it would be impossible to tell the difference.

This thread was made a while ago, so I actually voted for Yamamoto, but now I believe that Aizen has a pretty good shot at winning this one.

Random101
May 09, 2010, 08:13 PM
Recall Yamamoto confirmed that he can apparently feel the reiatsu of the blade or whatever. I honestly have no clue how, nor how that makes any sense, but that's how Kubo made it happen. Hence, that's how.

Gran Maestro
May 10, 2010, 04:17 AM
The logic is same, the reason is different. Tousen gives enough time to his opponents to react because they can feel his sword, Aizen gives enough time to his opponents to react because KS works that way. Even if Aizen uses his illusions, his opponents can feel his presence when he is about to attack, so if they're focused and they have sufficiently fast reaction speed, they can dodge/block Aizen's attack. This is how Kubo portrayed Aizen's zanpakuto.

So if anybody argues that Aizen has the power to cut off people's heads and there's no defense, then they should also explain:

a) Why did Aizen say "I never thought I had the power to defeat all espada" if KS's power is supreme?

b) Why did Gin say there would be people who would resist Aizen if KS was his biggest asset? Why can't Hisagi kill everybody (like he killed Tousen) if he has KS?

c) Why did Aizen say "RJ is the strongest zanpakuto" and make a modified arrancar to negate its powers? Why did Yamamoto say that he was stronger than Aizen even though he knew his powers?

d) Why didn't Aizen simply cut Hitsugaya in FKT like he did in SS arc, why did he say "you're all open" when Hitsugaya was enraged (and others were distracted/angry) if people are always open against KS?

e) Why doesn't Aizen simply turn everybody into stone statues? Why doesn't he create the illusion that people are stuck inside concrete walls and unable to touch or move? Why doesn't he make everybody unable to see/hear/smell/taste anything?

Everything in the manga, Aizen's, Gin's and Yamamoto's statements, Aizen's actions, Aizen's fights all suggest that there's defense against Aizen's KS. This is how Kubo portrayed Aizen's zanpakuto.

Bolshoi Hui
May 10, 2010, 07:05 AM
The only explanation why villains including Aizen don't aim at heads and chop them off, i.e. don't use the most efficient way to kill their enemies when they actually have a real chance is a plot-related stupidity coming from Shounen battle manga rules and the position bad guys are put into over there.

DEATHBOTT
May 10, 2010, 07:14 AM
i agree if aizan has complete control over everyones senses then he should be able to kill anyone. i think its just kubos shit writing imo. though rietsu sensing is different but then i doubt yama would let aizan stab him if he didnt have to. plot induced stupidity.

Raizen
May 11, 2010, 11:39 AM
^Yama had to let aizen stab him to feel aizen's reiatsu to make sure it is the real aizen. That way, yama could finish the real aizen off w/o worrying about the illusion

poobert
May 11, 2010, 01:48 PM
Yama made it clear that in order to beat Aizen, he needed to suicide bomb him. Without ww, it would have worked, so at best for Yama, this ends in a double ko.

Aizen's ability lies in his strength. He is ungodly strong, so even without his zan, he could hold his own. Aizen however did say that Yama's ability may surpass his own. I think that Yama's strength does indeed surpass Aizen's, so while Aizen can hold his own for a while, he will die if he prolongs the match without retreating with KS.

Aizen can not beat Yama in a straight fight, which is why he will hide in hundreds of illusions and attack with many level 90 kido's with complete chants.

First however, Aizen will try to hide in an illusion and use his sword, but as soon as he hits Yama, Yama will counter and smash Aizen around for a while, which is why Aizen will very likely take the kido approach. It may be a longer fight, but staying in illusions will mean that he is never caught.

Gran Maestro
May 11, 2010, 02:00 PM
Aizen can not beat Yama in a straight fight, which is why he will hide in hundreds of illusions and attack with many level 90 kido's with complete chants.

First however, Aizen will try to hide in an illusion and use his sword, but as soon as he hits Yama, Yama will counter and smash Aizen around for a while, which is why Aizen will very likely take the kido approach. It may be a longer fight, but staying in illusions will mean that he is never caught.

Aizen has no counter to Yama's fire because Yama attacks everywhere. A straight fight is Yama with RJ against Aizen with KS. ;)

kkck
May 11, 2010, 02:29 PM
Yamamoto is not unapproachable, if that was the case then a suicide attack which would kill most of the gotei 13 captains before even trying to fight would be pointless otherwise. Yamamoto knew damn well how a fight against aizen could turn which is why he decided to go suicidal on him. IMHO this fight would be a lot closer than what most people seem to think.

En Yang Ji
May 11, 2010, 03:06 PM
Couldn't Aizen just make it look like Yama is fighting an illusion the whole time to wear him out? Than Yama thinks he killed Aizen, Aizen can attack when his guard is down.

Gran Maestro
May 11, 2010, 03:20 PM
Yamamoto is not unapproachable, if that was the case then a suicide attack which would kill most of the gotei 13 captains before even trying to fight would be pointless otherwise. Yamamoto knew damn well how a fight against aizen could turn which is why he decided to go suicidal on him. IMHO this fight would be a lot closer than what most people seem to think.

I think most people overlook the fact that Yamamoto's objective was to protect KT at all costs. If you did have Yamamoto's power and if you had to kill Aizen without causing destruction in the real world, the optimum strategy would be to catch Aizen and focus your fire on a small area, i.e. suicide attack. If they did fight in HM, Aizen would be helpless against Yamamoto's fire. Aizen didn't intimidate Yamamoto even after Yamamoto lost his zanpakuto (http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/394/06/), IMO their fight would not be as close as some people think but Aizen certainly has a chance if he plays his cards right, this is what the manga suggests. Aizen didn't dare challenge Yamamoto even though he had hougyoku to heal him and they were fighting in a place in which Yamamoto couldn't use his fire in an efficient manner.

Hystzen
May 11, 2010, 03:24 PM
yamma lets aizen stab him in stomach..yamma then beats aizen to death..the crazy old bat

Gran Maestro
May 11, 2010, 03:25 PM
Couldn't Aizen just make it look like Yama is fighting an illusion the whole time to wear him out? Than Yama thinks he killed Aizen, Aizen can attack when his guard is down.

KS doesn't affect reiatsu sense, Yamamoto can understand whether Aizen is around or not but he can't pinpoint the exact location.

kkck
May 11, 2010, 03:30 PM
I think most people overlook the fact that Yamamoto's objective was to protect KT at all costs. If you did have Yamamoto's power and if you had to kill Aizen without causing destruction in the real world, the optimum strategy would be to catch Aizen and focus your fire on a small area, i.e. suicide attack. If they did fight in HM, Aizen would be helpless against Yamamoto's fire. Aizen didn't intimidate Yamamoto even after Yamamoto lost his zanpakuto (http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/394/06/), IMO their fight would not be as close as some people think but Aizen certainly has a chance if he plays his cards right, this is what the manga suggests. Aizen didn't dare challenge Yamamoto even though he had hougyoku to heal him and they were fighting in a place in which Yamamoto couldn't use his fire in an efficient manner.
You make it sound as if the power yamamoto put in that suicide attack was something he could use regularly-basically the power to destroy all of KT-. I don't think such a thing would be possible without all the time yamamoto put in it. If yamamoto could pull that much power regularly then there is even less reason for him to go on a suicide attack. He has to just hold back a bit. And how is it that aizen didn't dare to fight yamamoto? He simply didn't have to which is completely different from not daring.

poobert
May 11, 2010, 03:57 PM
Aizen has no counter to Yama's fire because Yama attacks everywhere. A straight fight is Yama with RJ against Aizen with KS. ;)

Actually that is not entirely true. We have never seen Yama do that. Against Allon, his attacks were very purposeful. His technique cut allon in half with basically no splash damage. His move vs the fraccion was aoe, but way to weak to harm Aizen much.

Only his suicide attack was aoe, but even then, it required Aizen to stab Yama so that he knew where Aizen was and could focus the attack.

Yama could have just used his suicide move like that, but he didn't because even a powerful move like that will not kill Aizen if it doesn't hit him dead on with full force. The fringe damage of Yama's weaker attacks will do nothing compared to the black coffins and thousand hand sky cannons that Aizen will be unleashing.

Yama's pulverising reatsu and all that stuff we heard about back in SS from shunsui and Uki is going to do squat v Aizen who is not that far behind Yama in shear power and reatsu compared to other captains.

Gran Maestro
May 11, 2010, 04:04 PM
You make it sound as if the power yamamoto put in that suicide attack was something he could use regularly-basically the power to destroy all of KT-. I don't think such a thing would be possible without all the time yamamoto put in it. If yamamoto could pull that much power regularly then there is even less reason for him to go on a suicide attack. He has to just hold back a bit. And how is it that aizen didn't dare to fight yamamoto? He simply didn't have to which is completely different from not daring.

Yamamoto can't hold back unless he knows the exact location of Aizen, i.e. if he is not holding him. Otherwise Aizen's chance of survival increases substantially because Yamamoto can't maintain the integrity of barrier/pillars and provide enough fire to burn Aizen at the same time.

Perhaps Yamamoto can't use his hellfire technique instantly but I believe he can still protect himself (http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/316/10/) until he's ready to unleash hell.

And there's little difference between "not daring challenge someone" and "not challenging someone because it will result in a possible loss".
[hr]

Actually that is not entirely true. We have never seen Yama do that. Against Allon, his attacks were very purposeful. His technique cut allon in half with basically no splash damage. His move vs the fraccion was aoe, but way to weak to harm Aizen much.

Only his suicide attack was aoe, but even then, it required Aizen to stab Yama so that he knew where Aizen was and could focus the attack.

Yama could have just used his suicide move like that, but he didn't because even a powerful move like that will not kill Aizen if it doesn't hit him dead on with full force. The fringe damage of Yama's weaker attacks will do nothing compared to the black coffins and thousand hand sky cannons that Aizen will be unleashing.

Yama's pulverising reatsu and all that stuff we heard about back in SS from shunsui and Uki is going to do squat v Aizen who is not that far behind Yama in shear power and reatsu compared to other captains.

You're speculating that even Yamamoto's best move would hardly kill Aizen and Aizen could simply kill Yamamoto with destructive spells but I won't argue with you about that because Kubo already made it clear that this is not the case, so any further discussion is futile.

Raizen
May 11, 2010, 04:47 PM
I don't understand the debate. Aizen already admitted inferiority against yama. And then later he said he may have underestimated yama, meaning yama had even more to offer even after aizen made that comment.

Yama would beat aizen 1-on-1 no matter the situation

thornofcarrion
May 12, 2010, 02:30 AM
If Aizen was greater than Yama why would he needed to create an arrancar specifically to counter RJ. Aizen, even with Yama under KS, would have lost if it wasn't for WW. Even with Hogyoku embedded in Aizen, Aizen didn't try to take out Yama on his own.

Waking_Dreamer
May 12, 2010, 07:00 AM
Actually that is not entirely true. We have never seen Yama do that. Against Allon, his attacks were very purposeful. His technique cut allon in half with basically no splash damage. His move vs the fraccion was aoe, but way to weak to harm Aizen much.

Only his suicide attack was aoe, but even then, it required Aizen to stab Yama so that he knew where Aizen was and could focus the attack.


All Yama-ji has to do is release his shikai to set the battlefield a blaze. Thats one of the advantages (or disadvantages) of elemental zan...their inclination to affect the environment and not just the opponent. Especially the more powerful they are.

http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/156/03/
http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/156/08/

Theoretically, Yama-jii could systematically reduce the entire battlefield...setting his flames to continually burn and incinerate area from area till there is no more place for Aizen to hide...


Yama's pulverising reatsu and all that stuff we heard about back in SS from shunsui and Uki is going to do squat v Aizen who is not that far behind Yama in shear power and reatsu compared to other captains.

I dont know...even though the majority of readers have already accepted that Yama in sheer power is stronger than Aizen...the gap is STILL very much debatable.

Consider what others have said...Aizen with hougyoku and WW as precautions, in the end STILL admitted he underestimated Yama's power without even facing his bankai. The flames from Yama-ji's zan have never been shown to be resistible. Id consider that the flames from his zan will burn everything it touches...including Aizen.

WW and Superchunky is prime evidence of this.

poobert
May 12, 2010, 08:14 AM
I thought Aizen underestimated the fact that Yama would sacrifice his body in an instant to use that kido spell.

I agree that the gap between power is debatable. I say it is small. It is obvious that everyone above disagrees, but that's how I like it!

Raizen
May 12, 2010, 12:59 PM
^ Aizen underestimated yama in thinking that he would be completely beaten by the explosive RJ, but yama kept going and then cast a level 97 kido

The gap is quite huge. Aizen had such a HUGE advantage against yama w/ KS and still he was unsure he could win. Yama even mocks aizen's strength. I think it is pretty clear the difference in their strength is quite big

patedecarne
May 12, 2010, 01:37 PM
I just think Yamma is stronger, but considering Aizen seventh sense a.k.a. clairvoyance, I don't see gramps winning this fight. that's all.

Not to mention Yammamoto and his stupid actions since the beginning:

He wanted to destroy everything, including the whole SS army on that nuke attack. INstead of trying to destroy everything, maybe he could have used Bankai right off the bat?

Againat WW, though, he was smart, and put a hell of fight.

But then, he never thought that WW would store all of his reiatsu. Big big mistake. He knows Aizen, he should be expecting something like that.

and finally, the Ittou Kasou. Great, a kamikaze hadou, on that situation? Knowing he was the last hope, he sacrificed himself fo absolutely nothing?

I'm sorry, but if I were yamma's superiors, I would have him demoted, for yesteday. This isn't a general.

WhisperPL
May 12, 2010, 01:50 PM
Look at Yama shikai the fire is all around him - i think illusion is useles in that case :) Aizen dont stand a chance when yama can use his fire because even he will die in those flames.

hakuthehedgehog
May 12, 2010, 02:25 PM
I don't Yamamoto sacrificed himself with hadou 96: I think he only used his left arm for that.
Also, Yamamoto couldn't use Bankai because it would've destroyed the barrier and maybe 1/5 of the entire world.

Gran Maestro
May 12, 2010, 03:25 PM
He wanted to destroy everything, including the whole SS army on that nuke attack. INstead of trying to destroy everything, maybe he could have used Bankai right off the bat?

If Yamamoto's shikai is strong enough to destroy an area exponentially bigger than KT, do you think it would be wise to use bankai?


But then, he never thought that WW would store all of his reiatsu. Big big mistake. He knows Aizen, he should be expecting something like that.

WW was the first modified arrancar in history, how was Yamamoto supposed to know his abilities? And even if he knew it, what else could be done? Aizen could kill WW himself in a worst case scenario and Yamamoto would have been forced to do the exact same thing he did.


and finally, the Ittou Kasou. Great, a kamikaze hadou, on that situation? Knowing he was the last hope, he sacrificed himself fo absolutely nothing?

Aizen was about to kill him, he would die anyway, so using a hadou was reasonable. And this hadou created a valuable opening for Ichigo and Aizen might have died if he didn't have hougyoku embedded in his chest.


I'm sorry, but if I were yamma's superiors, I would have him demoted, for yesteday. This isn't a general.

Soldiers must sacrifice themselves if they have to, apparently you have never served in the armed forces and this concept is foreign to you. :)

Young Aizen
May 12, 2010, 04:05 PM
It all depends on whether or not Aizen knows he's going to fight Yama in Advance....
yama > Aizen(unprepared)
Aizen(prepared) > anyone

Raizen
May 12, 2010, 05:56 PM
^^ this is aizen alone vs yama alone. So prepared or not,he doesn't have WW to negate RJ

patedecarne
May 12, 2010, 08:26 PM
If Yamamoto's shikai is strong enough to destroy an area exponentially bigger than KT, do you think it would be wise to use bankai?


WW was the first modified arrancar in history, how was Yamamoto supposed to know his abilities? And even if he knew it, what else could be done? Aizen could kill WW himself in a worst case scenario and Yamamoto would have been forced to do the exact same thing he did.



Aizen was about to kill him, he would die anyway, so using a hadou was reasonable. And this hadou created a valuable opening for Ichigo and Aizen might have died if he didn't have hougyoku embedded in his chest.



Soldiers must sacrifice themselves if they have to, apparently you have never served in the armed forces and this concept is foreign to you. :)

I don't know the properties of his bankai, but maybe it is a better idea than just destroying everything. Only my thoughts, of course. will explain more in the following lines. I just don't know if Yamma intended to use sacrifices or not >.<

Nah, I only said that because Aizen does the same. Think about something like Light vs L, if you know Death Note.

And for the last two quotes, that's my problem. Making sacrifice isn't a foreign concept for me, actually on chess, I'm probably one of the people who makes the highest numbers of sacrifices per game. My problem is: on one moment, Yammamoto didn't care about destructing everything. but a few minutes later, he just wanted to save everyone by absorbing the whole blast. This doesn't make any sense to me, if he wants to use sacrifices(and he needs to) then his last action was kind of useless. Instead os just trying to save everyone, he should have focus on the battle with Aizen, and here, without WW or anyone else, Yamma would have win, I believe.

Gran Maestro
May 13, 2010, 04:34 AM
I don't know the properties of his bankai, but maybe it is a better idea than just destroying everything. Only my thoughts, of course. will explain more in the following lines. I just don't know if Yamma intended to use sacrifices or not >.<

Not only Yamamoto but many of the good guys refrained from going bankai in FKT. If these bankai turn out to be extremely useful against an opponent like Aizen, we'll understand that good guys have been victims of the Bleach plot.


And for the last two quotes, that's my problem. Making sacrifice isn't a foreign concept for me, actually on chess, I'm probably one of the people who makes the highest numbers of sacrifices per game. My problem is: on one moment, Yammamoto didn't care about destructing everything. but a few minutes later, he just wanted to save everyone by absorbing the whole blast. This doesn't make any sense to me, if he wants to use sacrifices(and he needs to) then his last action was kind of useless. Instead os just trying to save everyone, he should have focus on the battle with Aizen, and here, without WW or anyone else, Yamma would have win, I believe.

So you like chess, nice, I'm a chess fan myself. I followed the recent Anand vs Topalov WC match whenever I had time and analyzed their moves with computer. Chess helps a lot in the development of reasoning process. Unlike you, I'm a conservative player like Karpov and exploit positional advantages.

When Yamamoto first attempted to use his "flames of hell" technique, he was in control of his fire and he was planning to destroy a certain area which included himself, Aizen, vizards and shinigami from Gotei 13. He even told Ichigo to stay away at a place where his fire wouldn't reach him. When WW exploded, Yamamoto had already lost the control of his flames and the explosion was about to destroy everything including a huge area in real world. He couldn't sacrifice many human lives to eliminate the threat of Aizen, and Aizen knew that, he took advantage of Yamamoto's concern for humans. Good strategy.

Pavitre
May 15, 2010, 12:35 AM
why hasn't this thread become outdated yet lol

i come here to see new fights and i see this one pop up again.

Aizen:- hmm on a 1v1 you'll obviously overpower me
Mangahelper fans:- nah, he's still stronger then yama

Aizen:- you RJ's power will outdo me in a fair fight
Mangahelpers fans:- he'll win with KS eventually..duh

Kubo in interview:- dammit baka baka fans, yama is stronger
Managhelpers fans:- nah, aizen's smarter and more cunning he'll win eventually.. duh

Raizen
May 17, 2010, 01:49 PM
Aizen's KS has affected them to the point where they disregard manga evidence.
Aizen had to make WW to counter yama even with yama under KS influence. Enough said

En Yang Ji
May 27, 2010, 03:13 PM
- I'm starting to think Aizen, without the HG is stronger than Yamamoto. According to CNET translation, Aizen never said Yama is far stronger or stronger at all. Aizen said that if he fought RJ directly it would likely overpower even him.

The reason Aizen created WW is likely the for the same reason Yama used a suicide attack, for insurance. They wanted to make sure they would win.

Aizen later went on to say, his power before the HG, was unrivaled by anyone in SS.


- Yama has no reliable way to counter Aizen's illusions. Also to obtain the power needed to kill Aizen with Ryujin Jakka, he had to take a large amount of time to prepare a suicide attack. It doesn't seem he can achieve the power needed to kill Aizen easily.

Raizen
May 27, 2010, 04:40 PM
And what exactly do u think RJ is? A zanpaktou is the spirit of a shinigami. In the end, they are one in the same. If he fears RJ, he fears yama. Furthermore, that is only one translation: here are some more
http://mangahelpers.com/s/maximum7/readonline/75334/20
And this one
1(2b): Your Ryuujin Jakka is the strongest Zanpakutou. That is no mistake.
2: In a straight fight, your strength far outweighs mine.

Aizen, even w/ KS and its powers was scared of WW enough to mod an arrancar to counter yama. That tells u that he is not confident in his ability to fight yama even w/ KS advantage. Also, yama mocked aizen stating that aizen's strength would not bring him down. Which was true, aizen did not physically defeat yama.

The whole trap was to make sure that yama would end this for certain. He couldn't leave any chances. The duties of SS is to protect no matter what. The trap does not mean yama couldn't beat aizen, it was to make sure that he could deal the blow to the real aizen

kkck
May 27, 2010, 04:49 PM
A shinigami and a zampakuto are not one and the same. Each of them has their own personality and individuality meaning they are different. A shinigami and a zampakuto are merely part of the same whole which does not equate to shinigami = zampakuto.

All the translations make it a point to say one way or another RJ is the strongest zampakuto or some variation of that. In that sense, aizen was going for yama´s ability. I am inclined to think aizen knew the illusion would not be enough to deal with yama due to them being roughly in the same league. In that sense, if aizen was to fight directly the fact that his zampakuto does not provide enhanced offense or defense of any form might prove an issue. Of course, that works only if they fight directly, there are plenty of forms to fight indirectly specially when your sword controls the senses. IMHO aizen just made WW to deal with the only plausible threat but if they had fought they´d be fairly matched depending on what strategy they choose when fighting.

Raizen
May 27, 2010, 05:40 PM
Personality or not, their strength should be quite similar.
It is already stated in the manga that aizen knew he couldn't beat yama hence he made WW. Even w/o RJ, yama was ready to fight yama bare handed. He mocked aizen and laughed at aizen's strenght

Hystzen
May 27, 2010, 06:13 PM
aizen was fearfull of yamma he wasent confident he would be able to take him without a backup plan which is the first time i can think of that aizen was not confident that even with KS it would work.

and yamma proved why he let himself get stabbed so he could beat yamma to death that proved aizen was right he should have been scared of yammas power.

emanresu
May 27, 2010, 10:26 PM
any shinigami hit with mulitple 90s hadou = dead.

1)So all Aizen need to do is use KS and avoid stabbing/cutting Yamaji. Keep on using hadous. Yama dead.

2) Technique as shown in manga. Yama dead

3)Bring extra body. Use KS for disguise. Appear from behind and stab Yama's head. Yama dead.


One things for sure. Aizen wont be dead in this match due to KS. Yama with RJ wont know where's Aizen location. So! Its either stalemate or Aizen winning.

Gran Maestro
May 28, 2010, 08:18 AM
Before I read your last paragraph I thought you were serious...and I was like wtf...?! :blink

Yup, I am not suffering from a brain hemorrhage, of course I wasn't serious. But I guess emanresu didn't understand I wasn't serious, Yamamoto can incinerate Aizen because RJ is overpowering, it is the strongest zanpakuto, this is what everybody in the manga says. There is nowhere to hide, RJ can attack an area many times bigger than KT and this is only shikai. Kubo made Yamamoto's own power defeat Yamamoto because only his own power can do serious damage to him. Yamamoto mocked Aizen's power even after he lost RJ, Aizen most likely loses to Yamamoto, anybody who disagrees must attend reading comprehension classes which is necessary to grasp basic manga concepts.

Gran Maestro
May 28, 2010, 10:42 AM
Now I'm just confused with your extended posts of sarcasm gran maestro :blink.

I had better use more smilies. :D

I just tried to draw attention to the absurdity of suggesting a straight fight is a fight without KS. If Aizen doesn't use KS, he can't last for more than 10 seconds against RJ. A straight fight is an all-out one-on-one fight including all zanpakuto abilities. Obviously this is what Aizen was talking about, Aizen with KS is inferior to Yamamoto with RJ.

poobert
May 28, 2010, 11:05 AM
Not only is his statement not as clear cut thanks to the translation ki0 pointed out, Aizen also unambiguously stated that pre hogyoku, he was the strongest person in SS.

http://mangastream.com/read/bleach/143/18

We have one sentence where he says that he may be overpowered in a straight fight, and we have one that says his own power was unrivalled by any being in SS.

Forgive me for being sceptical of people who think the answer is obvious.

Hystzen
May 28, 2010, 11:17 AM
Not only is his statement not as clear cut thanks to the translation ki0 pointed out, Aizen also unambiguously stated that pre hogyoku, he was the strongest person in SS.

http://mangastream.com/read/bleach/143/18

We have one sentence where he says that he may be overpowered in a straight fight, and we have one that says his own power was unrivalled by any being in SS.

Forgive me for being sceptical of people who think the answer is obvious.

good point i suppose to do with translation.

i still belive the sentance when he fought yamma

http://mangastream.com/read/bleach/59/18

this was the old aizen so he was thinking with his head not the arrogant tank he thinks he is now.

plus if aizen could win he would not have mad WW really :amuse

Gran Maestro
May 28, 2010, 11:30 AM
Not only is his statement not as clear cut thanks to the translation ki0 pointed out, Aizen also unambiguously stated that pre hogyoku, he was the strongest person in SS.

http://mangastream.com/read/bleach/143/18

We have one sentence where he says that he may be overpowered in a straight fight, and we have one that says his own power was unrivalled by any being in SS.

Forgive me for being sceptical of people who think the answer is obvious.

Gin said (http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/390/19/) the same thing, the manga already made it clear Yamamoto was an exception. Do you expect Gin & Aizen to open parenthesis and say "except Yamamoto" whenever they talk about unrivaled powers of Aizen? Wouldn't it be redundant? :blink

THM Nindo
May 28, 2010, 11:36 AM
Are we talking about Aizen, or GodAizen?

GodAizen > Yama-ji > Aizen

It's pretty clear from the manga.
Even Aizen himself said it.

Normal Aizen is far from being the strongest...
Just think of it... both Isshin and Urahara were also able to push him to his limit.
(I know... he didn't use KS against Urahara...)

But, it's pretty clear that Isshin was stronger than him, and Yama-ji too, IMO.

poobert
May 28, 2010, 01:28 PM
Gin said (http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/390/19/) the same thing, the manga already made it clear Yamamoto was an exception. Do you expect Gin & Aizen to open parenthesis and say "except Yamamoto" whenever they talk about unrivaled powers of Aizen? Wouldn't it be redundant? :blink

Completely missed that one.

But Gin said that Aizen was the best first. Then Aizen said the thing about loosing to Yama, then he said he was the best again.

It is like a little contradiction sandwich. Maybe adding the "except Yama" thing is a bit redundant, but only if you establish the fact first, but as you can see, it is in the middle of the sandwich.

I am still confused.

Hystzen
May 28, 2010, 01:40 PM
well aizen is bound to say he is the best aint he...he not gona go round beating people into the floor claiming im weak :p.

n just because he says he is god doesnt mean he is ..... kon claims to be the hero but he aint ....is he? :blink

maybe thats all we need to kill aizen Kon.

he is natural power house but he cant kill yamma without RJ as we seen really...now if it hougaizen then maybe the regen would help

Waking_Dreamer
May 28, 2010, 04:35 PM
Oh man what an epic power/slug fest it would be for Yama-ji vs hougaizen right now!

Anyway, its not just the words the characters say but the actions as well. Consider that even with the houg's defensive system Aizen did not really face Yama-ji directly. Or when Yama-ji got stabbed or lost his RJ, it not like he started grasping at straws...He seemed always willing to shunpo right up to Aizen and face him again.

Also note that the Aizen who can stop bankais with his fingers and slice through armored giants like paper - was bleeding by Yama-ji simply holding on to him...

Now that Aizen is no longer using KS and is casually/carelessly letting people hit him with anything and everything - Yama-ji is out of the picture! Oh boy if Only Yama-ji's zan had resurrection abilities which would make him rise from the ashes like a Phoenix...let the brawling begin!!

Nicholas.Sama
July 05, 2010, 01:04 PM
plus if aizen could win he would not have mad WW really :amuse

If Yamma was sure he was gonna win, he wouldn't have tried to blow himself up.

freshseth83
July 06, 2010, 02:19 AM
If Yamma was sure he was gonna win, he wouldn't have tried to blow himself up.

He said I'll take you with me. A sure win. Not a blow myself up. He didn't combust into flames. He had the flames controlled and was going for the sure thing while Aizen was in his grasp. What the story was trying to indicate was Yama's willingness to sacrifice himself to take out the greater evil. He didn't NEED to go that far out, but to make sure the job was done, no regeneration from the hoguyoku, no shunpo'ing away, no slashing or more stabbing at Yama, once the flames of hell were prepared and were initiated there was nothing to stop it, besides WW.

Twin bone would wreck anyone. If it destroyed WW who had regeneration on par with any espada and probably even better, there's no way that Aizen would have withstood that. Even without RJ, Aizen doesn't stand a chance once he knows where the 'real' Aizen is. And without KS but with Hog' I still think RJ is much too strong and would cook him instantly. Hog' and all.

Gran Maestro
July 06, 2010, 04:18 AM
Just a reminder: Yamamoto survived the full power of the same explosion later in the story. It means he wouldn't die in his own technique, it's just that Kubo emphasized Yamamoto's willingness to sacrifice even himself as a character trait. So either Yamamoto underestimated himself or he didn't want to look like a jerk by saying "Everybody including all my captains will die but I'll live, muhahaha". Perhaps he has some sort of fire protection, logically Hitsugaya is more resistant to ice than fire, right?

Nicholas.Sama
July 06, 2010, 10:30 AM
He said I'll take you with me. A sure win. Not a blow myself up. He didn't combust into flames. He had the flames controlled and was going for the sure thing while Aizen was in his grasp. What the story was trying to indicate was Yama's willingness to sacrifice himself to take out the greater evil. He didn't NEED to go that far out, but to make sure the job was done, no regeneration from the hoguyoku, no shunpo'ing away, no slashing or more stabbing at Yama, once the flames of hell were prepared and were initiated there was nothing to stop it, besides WW.

Twin bone would wreck anyone. If it destroyed WW who had regeneration on par with any espada and probably even better, there's no way that Aizen would have withstood that. Even without RJ, Aizen doesn't stand a chance once he knows where the 'real' Aizen is. And without KS but with Hog' I still think RJ is much too strong and would cook him instantly. Hog' and all.

Uhhh. No
He used his comrades being cut down as an opportunity and was willing to sacrifice EVERYONE!!!!
That has DOUBT written all over it. Meaning that he obviously saw defeat as a possibility.
They BOTH had DOUBT. Aizen wasn't positive that he would win against Yama, and made WW so he wouldn't have to risk it.
If you got as close to your goal as Aizen did, would you fight Yamma on a chance? HELL NO!!!

If Yamma was 100% certain he could defeat Aizen, then the level of stupidity in his kamekaze attack is something that I can't fathom.

http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/393/18/
I have also read 2 other translations
All show that Aizen felt his chances of victory were lower than Yamma's but he never declared loss as an absolute.
I have no doubt in my mind that Yamma's power was greater than Aizen's but people are trying to make the gap much larger than the relatively small gap it really was.

En Yang Ji
September 19, 2010, 09:58 PM
Yama may have been stronger before, but Aizen is stronger now. Aizen's reiastu wasn't even comprehendable by Isshin, Urahara, and Yoruichi, and was able to destroy the dangai.

Also now that we know the only weakness to KS depends on touching the sword, Aizen can make sure he almost never takes the full brunt of Yama's RJ. He can use KS, act like he's attacking and let Yama wear himself out. Even if he does take damage it wouldn't be that much, Yama would likely never hit him dead on. With his reiastu, he can take the little damage he would get.
[hr]
Aizen being on a higher dimension than shinigami might explain, Aizen's ability to destroy the train. The train probably can't be hurt by shinigami because its on a higher dimension. Aizen being able to destroy it, may mean he's the same as the train and unable to be damaged by shinigami.

Primecut
October 08, 2010, 07:23 PM
It is now clear that Aizen went easy on Yamamoto because he was a good guy all along. Aizen must have viewed Yamamoto was just another pawn of the evil Spirit King and decided to let Wonderweis clean up rather than dirty his own hands. I say Aizen could have just KSed behind Yamamoto and chopped his head off, considering Aizen was able to get Yamamoto's backside, smile, and pierce him. Yama didnt have a chance and lost to an arrancar who didnt even have a number. Aizen wins even in his base form with minor difficulties and the Hougyoku Aizen, Butterfly Aizen, or full blown Hollow God Aizen mops the floor with him even if Yama goes bankai and has Orihime healing him nonstop. Aizen is a transcendental being while Yama is an old man with some fire moves. Big deal.

Random101
October 08, 2010, 08:14 PM
Uh, he outright says that out of everyone, Yamamoto was the one specific person he was actually going to kill. You can't argue he was 'going easy on him' with that. At all.

Primecut
October 09, 2010, 05:44 AM
Uh, he outright says that out of everyone, Yamamoto was the one specific person he was actually going to kill. You can't argue he was 'going easy on him' with that. At all.

He played a bad guy who had intentions of being God, but what he really wanted is to save Soul Society from the control of "The Thing". Killing Yamamoto at that point was more of a mercy killing since Yamamoto was humiliated by Wonderweis and badly injured. Aizen knew that Yama would come back for more if he left him there, but even if Yamamoto came back his zanpakto was eaten by Wonderweis and Aizen himself had already eaten the Hougyoku. Yama would have died eventually to Aizen, the only thing saving Yama was Ichigo's interference. If Aizen really wanted Yama dead he would have just chopped off his head when he got behind him, but instead he gave him a warning stab. Let's remember, Aizen is not the guy who lost to the brainless arrancar with no number, that'd be Yamamoto. He probably felt sorry for Yama and decided to put him out of his misery.

shinsengumi
October 09, 2010, 06:38 AM
^ all of everything you have said up there is your own version of bleach . in 2 weeks time ,you may actually turn out to be right but for now you are just speculating things which you want to believe . not a good arguement material imo

and 1 correction , yama didnt lose to WW . he obliterated WW with his bare hands yet was trapped and forced to sacrifice himself. i beg to differ the 2

daman246
October 09, 2010, 07:02 AM
It is now clear that Aizen went easy on Yamamoto because he was a good guy all along. Aizen must have viewed Yamamoto was just another pawn of the evil Spirit King and decided to let Wonderweis clean up rather than dirty his own hands. I say Aizen could have just KSed behind Yamamoto and chopped his head off, considering Aizen was able to get Yamamoto's backside, smile, and pierce him. Yama didnt have a chance and lost to an arrancar who didnt even have a number. Aizen wins even in his base form with minor difficulties and the Hougyoku Aizen, Butterfly Aizen, or full blown Hollow God Aizen mops the floor with him even if Yama goes bankai and has Orihime healing him nonstop. Aizen is a transcendental being while Yama is an old man with some fire moves. Big deal.
thats what im saying no one stood a chance against aizen and never will unless ichigo goes FGt again and this time maybe his FGt will last more than a few sec lol

Random101
October 09, 2010, 12:21 PM
^ all of everything you have said up there is your own version of bleach . in 2 weeks time ,you may actually turn out to be right but for now you are just speculating things which you want to believe . not a good arguement material imo

and 1 correction , yama didnt lose to WW . he obliterated WW with his bare hands yet was trapped and forced to sacrifice himself. i beg to differ the 2
This. Yamamoto was outmaneuvered, not defeated. Partly because of plotkai as wonderwiess's ability was clearly an asspull, and partly because Aizen was the only one smart enough to think of a counter to the most dangerous zanpakuto on the opposing side (Seriously, why the hell didn't anyone invent a counter to KS, URAHARA especially). Without Wonderwiess things would have gone very differently, and since this match excludes any such help that's more or less the parameters. The lack of logic for some of these arguments is simply staggering.

kkck
October 09, 2010, 12:47 PM
This. Yamamoto was outmaneuvered, not defeated. Partly because of plotkai as wonderwiess's ability was clearly an asspull, and partly because Aizen was the only one smart enough to think of a counter to the most dangerous zanpakuto on the opposing side (Seriously, why the hell didn't anyone invent a counter to KS, URAHARA especially). Without Wonderwiess things would have gone very differently, and since this match excludes any such help that's more or less the parameters. The lack of logic for some of these arguments is simply staggering.

Everyone in SS new how dangerous kyoka suigetsu was. If a specific counter for it was not made then the only logical explanation for that is that neither yamamoto, mayuri or kisuke actually had the means to build a specific counter for it.

Without the orb or WW the match would have certainly been different however I do not think it would have been one sided in the least. I can't imagine aizen not being able to defend himself considering how powerful his illusion is.

Waking_Dreamer
October 11, 2010, 05:46 PM
Well honsetly I think I said this long time ago perhaps before the FKT battles started - but I thought the most direct route against Aizen was to trap Aizen and co. in FKT and have Yamamoto in there and napalm the whole area to the point where the barrier just holds.

Not considering plot or Ichigo's mandatory involvement that was Gotei's 13 highest chance of victory...

conn-man
October 11, 2010, 06:45 PM
Well honsetly I think I said this long time ago perhaps before the FKT battles started - but I thought the most direct route against Aizen was to trap Aizen and co. in FKT and have Yamamoto in there and napalm the whole area to the point where the barrier just holds.

Not considering plot or Ichigo's mandatory involvement that was Gotei's 13 highest chance of victory...

That would have been a shameful, cowardly attempt at victory. Remember, pride is a absolute fundamental of bleach.

kkck
October 11, 2010, 07:19 PM
That would have been a shameful, cowardly attempt at victory. Remember, pride is a absolute fundamental of bleach.

I don't think pride in the way you describe it is all that important. The FKT incident was a war not a competition. Neither side made that much of an effort to win the war in what could be considered clean fights in any way. Basically the rules for both sides were that anything goes. Lets take a look:

1.- Yamamoto sealed away the gin, tousen and aizen. Basically yamamoto planned on ganging up on the espada and then proceed to gang up on aizen(which they did).

2.- Yamamoto grabbed a hold of aizen and used a technique he prepared beforehand. This is actually what waking described in his post. He trapped aizen and napalm the whole area.

3.- Aizen brought WW. He avoided the one fight with the man that actually posed a threat and sealed his power.

4.- Yamamoto used his level 96th kido. How is this clean? He pretended to be half dead and was in a position where he could quite literally shove a kido up aizen's ass.

5.- This one is hardly chronological however aizen did make a point to split SS apart before the war. He made it a point to keep the already victorious captains in HM away from the battlefield and fight basically just half of SS military power.

On another note, shunsui is a prime example of a dirty fighter lol.

Neither aizen nor yamamoto are above trickery and dirty fighting (yamamoto does seem to care about a couple aesthetic details however I don't think those involve how a battle is fought). IMO is someone in this fight does something like kicking a groin it is not because the one who kicked the groin fought dirty but rather because the one who got kicked allowed his groin to be kicked. Then again, the very concept of a "clean fight" is inherently and terminally stupid and only applies to fighting at the competition level, not in real fights regardless of the scale.

Primecut
October 11, 2010, 09:18 PM
Well honsetly I think I said this long time ago perhaps before the FKT battles started - but I thought the most direct route against Aizen was to trap Aizen and co. in FKT and have Yamamoto in there and napalm the whole area to the point where the barrier just holds.

Not considering plot or Ichigo's mandatory involvement that was Gotei's 13 highest chance of victory...

Too bad Aizen tanks Yamamoto's most powerful attacks with minor burns. Yama got brushed aside like fodder when Lord Aizen got serious, thats why he needed to let his captains fight and lose first so he had time to come up with a plan. Too bad the plan failed because Aizen is way smarter than him. Yama didnt engage Aizen directly because he was scared, obviously. So Yama's plan after 100 chapters of fighting was to blow himself up. What a chicken...

Aizen just KSes and slices Yama to ribbons, obviously.

Waking_Dreamer
October 11, 2010, 09:44 PM
Too bad Aizen tanks Yamamoto's most powerful attacks with minor burns. Yama got brushed aside like fodder when Lord Aizen got serious, thats why he needed to let his captains fight and lose first so he had time to come up with a plan. Too bad the plan failed because Aizen is way smarter than him. Yama didnt engage Aizen directly because he was scared, obviously. So Yama's plan after 100 chapters of fighting was to blow himself up. What a chicken...

Aizen just KSes and slices Yama to ribbons, obviously.

LOL No. You trollin' boy....?

Aizen would have easily died twice due to Yamamoto's zanpakuto flames...obviously...

Random101
October 11, 2010, 11:10 PM
Aizen bailed the moment a half dead Yamamoto who had no access to his Zanpakuto bared a little bit of fang at him. A Yamamoto who was only in that state thanks to superior planning and outside variables no less, NOT anything Aizen himself did directly. And Aizen couldn't have bolted any faster from him even in that completely pitiful state. It's actually quite hilarious how fast he was desperately trying to get out of dodge, trying to escape so hard he completely missed one of the most pathetic characters in the series (HM arc Ichigo) bearing down on him.

Waking_Dreamer
October 11, 2010, 11:29 PM
Aizen bailed the moment a half dead Yamamoto who had no access to his Zanpakuto bared a little bit of fang at him. A Yamamoto who was only in that state thanks to superior planning and outside variables no less, NOT anything Aizen himself did directly. And Aizen couldn't have bolted any faster from him even in that completely pitiful state. It's actually quite hilarious how fast he was desperately trying to get out of dodge, trying to escape so hard he completely missed one of the most pathetic characters in the series (HM arc Ichigo) bearing down on him.

Yeah and the main reason he was in that state was due to the sheer power of his own flames uncrontrolled, which in fact saved Aizen's ass - who by no means would have any chance of surviving.

conn-man
October 12, 2010, 12:32 AM
I've really always wondered why hado 96 didn't do more damage to aizen. I don't know if I'm supposed to think the hogyoku healed him immediately or if aizens big reiatsu kept the damage down.

thornofcarrion
October 12, 2010, 12:45 AM
I think it was both of these factors. His reiatsu limited the damage and Hogyoku healed him rapidly.

conn-man
October 12, 2010, 12:56 AM
But why did aizen show a scared face when urahara was lining up 91 like it could have killed him. then yama using 96 should have done the same right? It's just one of those little things kubo did that irked me

Waking_Dreamer
October 12, 2010, 01:23 AM
Also Yamamoto was virtually crippled by the time he casted that kidou (was it chantless?).

If Yamamoto had not depleted his own reaitsu with generating his city-busting attack and then tanking it I suppose it would have been more powerful.

Also plot-wise it was Ichigo's time to shine and wanted his feats againt Aizen to be more impressive by having him unscathe to begin with it.

Kubo does that heaps....

En Yang Ji
October 12, 2010, 01:29 AM
I guess a level 90 spell with incantation is much stronger than one without it, especially considering how difficult it is to control level 90 spells. It may be that much harder to draw out their full power without a incantation.

- Anyway, it's very unlikely Yama can beat Godzen. Not only is he immortal, with a lot of power, but he's constantly evolving.

Waking_Dreamer
October 12, 2010, 01:33 AM
Question: Do people think "Godzen" could have tanked Yamamoto's city+ buster technique effortlessly?

Despite Urahara, Isshin and Yoruichi have free hits on Aizen, I dont think they generated the power close to Yamamoto's initial technique...

conn-man
October 12, 2010, 01:42 AM
I'm sure people don't consider it, but its a toss up. Maybe total incineration would have worked, but that cacoon really really protected him. He almost seemed safer at that stage than after the evolution was done

Waking_Dreamer
October 12, 2010, 01:49 AM
I'm sure people don't consider it, but its a toss up. Maybe total incineration would have worked, but that cacoon really really protected him. He almost seemed safer at that stage than after the evolution was done

But Imagine Yamamoto's Double Bone striking that? What a test eh?

kkck
October 12, 2010, 02:14 AM
But why did aizen show a scared face when urahara was lining up 91 like it could have killed him. then yama using 96 should have done the same right? It's just one of those little things kubo did that irked me

Aizen was showing a scared face but the subsequent panels made it clear he did not even bother to dodge, he had not need for such a thing. Aizen was immeasurably stronger when he fought urahara than when he fought yamamoto. And aizen did show a scared face when yamamoto used his own 96th hado. That said, I don't think the orb actually protected aizen from any damage at that time. What we saw in his arm and leg was the full extent of the damage that hado caused, it just so happened the orb healed him.
[hr]

But Imagine Yamamoto's Double Bone striking that? What a test eh?

Urahara already made aizen explode from the inside with his seal thingy though. Why would the bones thing have a different result? I doubt it'd even go as far as to disintegrate aizen as it did wonderweiss.

Waking_Dreamer
October 12, 2010, 02:43 AM
Urahara already made aizen explode from the inside with his seal thingy though. Why would the bones thing have a different result? I doubt it'd even go as far as to disintegrate aizen as it did wonderweiss.

Are you talking about the cuff explosion thing?...that didnt seem that impressive.

Primecut
October 13, 2010, 07:29 PM
Aizen tanked Yama's #96 because he has insane durability as shown when he stopped Ichigo's bankai blade with a finger. There was no evidence of Hougyoku healing him in those panels. If the Yama's power is really all that and a bag of chips then Aizen wouldnt have shrugged off a #96 from him after taking it point blank.

Broken_Wing
October 13, 2010, 08:04 PM
Aizen tanked Yama's #96 because he has insane durability as shown when he stopped Ichigo's bankai blade with a finger. There was no evidence of Hougyoku healing him in those panels. If the Yama's power is really all that and a bag of chips then Aizen wouldnt have shrugged off a #96 from him after taking it point blank.

Yamamoto's power is all that and two bags of BBQ flavoured chips.. :eyeroll

Aizen had no way of tanking or escaping Ennetsu Jigoku which Yamamoto tanked instead and then launch his kido #96.

Id like to see Aizen tank Ennetsu Jigoku and than cast #90 Kido - oh wait, he probably wouldnt be alive.

Waking_Dreamer
October 13, 2010, 08:20 PM
Aizen tanked Yama's #96 because he has insane durability as shown when he stopped Ichigo's bankai blade with a finger.

Yeah...that sounds impressive - till you realise Yamamotos hand grip and bare fingers was puncturing Aizen's arm to the point of it bleeding through his clothes...

If Yamamoto was going to slash him with his flaming Zanpakuto - Aizen's not coming out of that still man pretty.

En Yang Ji
October 13, 2010, 08:52 PM
Yama tanking Rj's explosion is impressive, but I don't think it is as impressive as it sounds. Yama planned to die in his flames of hell. Since he didn't die from it, I'm assuming he planned on killing Aizen by burning him.

Its a technique thats meant to kill by burning, an explosion may not necessarily kill Aizen.

Random101
October 13, 2010, 09:50 PM
Problem is we were pretty much directly told the explosion magnified the power to the point where, had Yamamoto NOT tanked it, it would have destroyed Fake Karakura town, which I remind you is a square mile in total, and still had enough force to blow through the barrier, which I remind you is strong enough that the vizards apparently couldn't do jack to it, and by Aizen's own words continue on to destroy a large amount of land many times greater than Fake Karakura town.

Now you may say hey, a mile isn't all that impressive a distance, powerful enough to blow through the barrier or not, and you'd be right given we know jack all about how potent it was. But recall Yamamoto tanked this to the point where that massive power was reduced to basically an entire block. As in he took a force head on with enough power to destroy that much area with that much force and specifically took it in such a way that he took on FAR more damage than he would otherwise have taken so as to make sure as little of the energy spread out as possible. That's several magnitudes more impressive right there. He could have keeled over and it would have been completely logical and still totally awe inspiring.

But no, he not only took that, but he also immediately cast a 90's level kido at Aizen and forced the guy to retreat like a total bitch to survive so fast he couldn't even react to one of the most pathetic characters in the series coming at him. That's how hard he was forced to retreat from a pretty much 90% dead Yamamoto. The old man is just that good.

kkck
October 13, 2010, 10:20 PM
Yamamoto's power is all that and two bags of BBQ flavoured chips.. :eyeroll

Aizen had no way of tanking or escaping Ennetsu Jigoku which Yamamoto tanked instead and then launch his kido #96.

Id like to see Aizen tank Ennetsu Jigoku and than cast #90 Kido - oh wait, he probably wouldnt be alive.

In all fairness, yamamoto pretty much mentioned he was also going to die with the flames of hell thingy. It was an attack which was supposed to kill aizen along with yamamoto and all of the gotei 13 there. So then, why did yamamoto survived? I doubt the attack yamamoto was going to use was just a huge ass explosion which would blast everything to hell for no reason to begin with. Most likely the power which was sealed inside wonderweiss was meant to have a different effect which would have actually killed both aizen in yamamoto. In that sense, it is very likely the flames of hell technique would have killed yama and aizen while just an explosion would not. It is not a fact that the explosion yama contained would have killed aizen had yamamoto not contain it.

Primecut
October 14, 2010, 01:38 AM
Yama tanking Rj's explosion is impressive, but I don't think it is as impressive as it sounds. Yama planned to die in his flames of hell. Since he didn't die from it, I'm assuming he planned on killing Aizen by burning him.

Its a technique thats meant to kill by burning, an explosion may not necessarily kill Aizen.

Yep, people are constantly overestimating Yama. I think what Yama's survival really shows is that Yamamoto overestimated his own power. His power has waned over the years, clearly. When we do an unbiased fact check he said he had the power to take out Aizen, himself, and all the other captains. When actually tested the attack didnt even take out one person, excluding Wonderweis who was already beaten. Now when we factor in prep time for an attack Yamamoto spent dozens of chapters standing around charging up that attack for such a poor payoff. Also, Yamamoto's direct #96 only managed singe Aizen's clothes even though he had a grip on Aizen's leg.

I hear lots of great things about Yama that dont have any founding. Lets do a review here on Yama's track record. What is Yama's best feat? One shotting a fraccion like Allen or numberless arrancar like Wonderweis? Well, Lord Aizen has one shot four captains in a single panel including Yamamoto's prized student Shunsui. Then with the KS factor....Yama didnt have a chance hence he resorted to attacks that would take himself and his students out just to get at Aizen. Those are the facts my friends. The end.

Random101
October 14, 2010, 01:46 AM
And yet Aizen still ran like a bitch from a 90% dead Yamamoto because it turned out that he really is just that much of a monster.

Frankly Aizen was pretty much dead the second Yamamoto grabbed him. Without Wonderwiess that was going to be pretty much it for him. And I'm not talking about Yamamoto's kill everything either, Aizen wasn't escaping losing bare minimum an arm and his sword in that situation, and without KS he's pretty much finished from there. Only colossally stupid writing saved him (in more ways than one) in that situation.

Course colossally stupid writing got him into that situation to, which pretty much defines why I don't count anything Aizen did ever since stepping up to the plate.

En Yang Ji
October 14, 2010, 01:58 AM
Aizen did what he did knowing that if he got into trouble WW would bail him out. If WW wasn't their he would act with more caution.

Random101
October 14, 2010, 02:09 AM
And he knew Yamamoto would waste time activating his kill everything instead of cutting him in two the instant he caught his arm how? Or that Ichigo would just stand there doing jack squat despite that being the best opening yet?

There's no saving that scene as it is frankly. Poor writing all around in practically every facet, which would have been completely avoidable if either side were remotely thinking even partially during it at nearly any point. Or more accurately if Kubo weren't trying to make Aizen look cool but instead only succeeding in making everything look pulled out of his ass in a desperate attempt to play him up while actually just making him that much more annoying.

Broken_Wing
October 14, 2010, 02:15 AM
And yet Aizen still ran like a bitch from a 90% dead Yamamoto because it turned out that he really is just that much of a monster.

Thats pretty much it.

People reckon Aizen's cash because he ran so fast from the dying breath of Yamamoto. LMAO

Lets consider Yamamoto has 10% of his power left, he only sacrificed one arm for the kido. Lets say the 1 arm is what 20%, 15% of the overall body? ie. 2 arms, 2 legs and torso and head.

Whats 15% of that 10% power Yamamoto had left 1.5%? Well lets round it off to 2% of Yamamoto's total power as he entered FKT.

Aizen ran for his life against 2% of Yamamot's power...the question isnt why did Aizen survive the question is why didnt he just stand there, take it and then laugh at Yamamoto's remains? I mean if Aizen is really meant to rival Yamamoto in reiatsu no...?

Waking_Dreamer
October 14, 2010, 02:31 AM
Yamamoto's Flames of Hell is multi-city/town buster. That is fact. Aizen said so himself.

Nothing to me suggests from Aizen's display of power he could survive that. Nothing.

Who has the most likelyhood of enduring the most out of that power/destruction. Yamamoto. That logically makes sense - it was from his zanpakuto and he has the most experience with elemental flame attacks.

FKT and Real KT + surrounding towns was doomed with that explosion. Fact.

Yamamoto was brought down to his knees and belly with that attack...just hanging onto existence long enough to lure Aizen personally to him - AGAIN.

Where did people get the idea Aizen would survive that? Out of all of Gotei 13, FKT, Azien and Yamamoto... THE Captain Commander would have the most endurance to that technique. Result = Yamamoto was on the brink of death.

I doubt Aizen would be close to Yamamoto's state if he had just let it go boom...let alone people getting the impression he would survive it better...wth?


I hear lots of great things about Yama that dont have any founding. Lets do a review here on Yama's track record. What is Yama's best feat? One shotting a fraccion like Allen or numberless arrancar like Wonderweis? Well, Lord Aizen has one shot four captains in a single panel including Yamamoto's prized student Shunsui.

Oh please - could you obviously belittle Yamamoto's power even less..?!

Numberless arrancar? Try DESTROYING a released arrancar with HSR with his bare hands. Lets not forget this Numberless arrancar off-panelled a 100+ years experience Captain in bankai with access to mask powers....! (Not 100% confirmed but is the most plausible scenario untill stated otherwise.)

Youre comapring that to:

Aizen one-shotting 4 battle weary captains? Two of which with depleted reiatsu used to go bankai twice....with his Zanpakuto shenanigan abilites.



EDIT: did you call him "Lord Aizen"...? WTF?

Young Aizen
October 14, 2010, 03:08 AM
I think in a true one on one.. They could both potentially kill each other. But yama more so because of the destructive nature & power of his RJ...
Aizen's shown that he's smarter and could easily wound Yama whether or not it was due to KS or Speedblitzing..doesn't really matter it happened live with it.. and yes the flames of hell would killed both Aizen AND Yama... Aizen sealed RJ because it was the smartest option.. Why gamble on trying to brawl with the most dangerous sword around even if you do have a chance?

And I still can't understand why people are tripping over that #96 hado... Of course Aizen's gonna have a "Oh Shit!!" look.. he thought dude was down for the count. Who would've thought he be able to throw out a final attack like that? Every other character in the series(except ichigo) would've hauled ass from that shit also and more than likely would have died.. He'd be an idiot to stay standing in the center of that. Plus besides.. unless Aizen moves at the speed of light he got actually caught by it... hence he tanked it with minor injuries.. What I'm saying is that they're both insanely strong and are able do serious damage to each other... But i still give the edge to Aizen because he's smarter.

Gran Maestro
October 14, 2010, 03:38 AM
If Yamamoto didn't contain this explosion, he would have been the only one surviving in an area far bigger than KT. Even Aizen was surprised at Yamamoto's endurance and even then Yamamoto was in a better condition than Aizen had anticipated as acknowledged by Aizen himself after the hadou: "I underestimated him."

Yamamoto was a beast. If they were fighting on a neutral ground like HM, Aizen would have been toast. If Aizen didn't plotkai his way with WW, he would have been toast. If Yamamoto knew KS's weakness (just like Aizen knew RJ, an unfair advantage), Yamamoto would have killed Aizen when he grabbed Aizen's arm without needing to release RJ. Yamamoto vs Aizen is much like Kenpachi vs Tousen. If Kubo refrains from directly stating that Aizen would certainly defeat Shunsui's bankai, how am I supposed to believe that Aizen had pretty good chances against the old man?

And mind you, Aizen had a hougyoku in his chest which was constantly healing him but he still didn't challenge Yamamoto directly despite his huge advantage. I'd like to see Aizen vs Yamamoto with the hougyoku in Yamamoto's chest this time. Kubo made Yamamoto's own power take him out, I think it's pretty obvious that Aizen was no match for him.

kkck
October 14, 2010, 07:25 AM
Yamamoto couldn't give the fodder treatment to shunsui and ukitake (both of whom are weaker than aizen), what makes you think he can do that to aizen who took out hordes of captains one after another? That makes no sense whatsoever.

Gran Maestro
October 14, 2010, 11:27 AM
Yamamoto couldn't give the fodder treatment to shunsui and ukitake (both of whom are weaker than aizen), what makes you think he can do that to aizen who took out hordes of captains one after another? That makes no sense whatsoever.

I've always believed neither Yamamoto nor Shunsui & Ukitake tried to kill each other, it was mostly a sword fight. The manga explicitly stated that Shunsui and Ukitake's combined power was still far weaker than the old man's. And of course if they are a good team, their combined strength may be much stronger than the sum of their individual strengths. Kubo, with a smart move, removed Ukitake from the fight and avoided a possible Aizen vs Shunsui & Ukitake confrontation.

Yes, Aizen took out hordes of captains but those that he overpowered using his strength were Komamura, Love and Rose who were all badly injured. He used trickery to take out the others, attacking a defenseless captain (i.e. Shunsui) who was trying to calm down his friend is not a "Wow, Aizen is far superior than Shunsui" kind of feat in my book. Stark accomplished a similar feat, even Hisagi defeated Tousen by taking advantage of an opening.

Post-hougyoku Aizen is another story, the plot after Aizen's transformation got pretty convoluted. We need to have more info before we can state where exactly FGT Ichigo and Godzen stand compared to other captains. Ichigo still has lots of room to grow until the end of the manga, this is why I don't believe Ichigo's final form which thrashed Aizen was not "the be-all and end-all" of power scale.

kkck
October 14, 2010, 11:49 AM
I've always believed neither Yamamoto nor Shunsui & Ukitake tried to kill each other, it was mostly a sword fight. The manga explicitly stated that Shunsui and Ukitake's combined power was still far weaker than the old man's. And of course if they are a good team, their combined strength may be much stronger than the sum of their individual strengths. Kubo, with a smart move, removed Ukitake from the fight and avoided a possible Aizen vs Shunsui & Ukitake confrontation.

Yes, Aizen took out hordes of captains but those that he overpowered using his strength were Komamura, Love and Rose who were all badly injured. He used trickery to take out the others, attacking a defenseless captain (i.e. Shunsui) who was trying to calm down his friend is not a "Wow, Aizen is far superior than Shunsui" kind of feat in my book. Stark accomplished a similar feat, even Hisagi defeated Tousen by taking advantage of an opening.

Post-hougyoku Aizen is another story, the plot after Aizen's transformation got pretty convoluted. We need to have more info before we can state where exactly FGT Ichigo and Godzen stand compared to other captains. Ichigo still has lots of room to grow until the end of the manga, this is why I don't believe Ichigo's final form which thrashed Aizen was not "the be-all and end-all" of power scale.

I don't think yamamoto is the type to hold back. Even if he did, if he is as strong as you say he should have been more than capable of taking them out without killing him. Seriously, according to you a wave of yamamoto's pinky should obliterate aizen without the guy so much as having a chance to begin a thought, why wouldn't yamamoto use 0.0000001% of his power to beat the living daylights of the duo without killing them? There would have been no reason whatsoever to have a prolonged confrontation specially considering there were at the time 100 other places where yamamoto could have kicked ass( stop soifon's fight, stop kempachi who was also a traitor at the time, stop byakuya's fight, deal with renji who was runnun away with rukia and so on....). Also, the whole thing about kyoraku's and ukitake's teamwork and phenomenal complementary abilities was a mistranslation so there is no reason for us to believe their teamwork was something so overpowering it brought shunsui and ukitake to an altogether different league from what they would be individually. Their teamwork might be good however it is not what the mistranslation built it up to be.

Using trickery is important and it would be relevant here. Aizen with his kido, speed, reiatsu and zampakuto can take any approach to battle he wants. Aizen can use his illusion to fight indirectly (I do not think yamamoto could destroy aizen easily even in a direct confrontation though) Using his illusion and trickery to leave everyone open is part of his strength. Even then, when aizen finally charged and brought down the captains and vizards they were by all intents and purposes aware of where aizen was. Hitsugaya was charging at aizen for god sake and aizen still was fast enough to shunpo in an cut everyone down in one go.

Gran Maestro
October 14, 2010, 01:05 PM
I don't think yamamoto is the type to hold back. Even if he did, if he is as strong as you say he should have been more than capable of taking them out without killing him. Seriously, according to you a wave of yamamoto's pinky should obliterate aizen without the guy so much as having a chance to begin a thought, why wouldn't yamamoto use 0.0000001% of his power to beat the living daylights of the duo without killing them? There would have been no reason whatsoever to have a prolonged confrontation specially considering there were at the time 100 other places where yamamoto could have kicked ass( stop soifon's fight, stop kempachi who was also a traitor at the time, stop byakuya's fight, deal with renji who was runnun away with rukia and so on....).

Because of the nature of his zanpakuto, it's very hard for someone like Yamamoto to not overdo it in a fight. There is no guarantee that his opponents can survive his stronger techniques, and weaker techniques may not prove that effective against strong opponents. Barragan could defeat Nnoitra comfortably but he would have a hard time restraining him without killing him.

Yamamoto's zanpakuto generates enough power to obliterate almost anybody including Aizen, his shikai has enough power to destroy cities but Yamamoto can't summon that much power without risking to hurt those whom he isn't supposed to hurt. I believe that in a combat without zanpakutos, Yamamoto could easily defeat Aizen (Could Aizen defeat WW with his bare hands), he was confident enough to take on Aizen without RJ. It's just that the very nature of KS forced Yamamoto to take drastic measures to end the Aizen threat once and for all.


Also, the whole thing about kyoraku's and ukitake's teamwork and phenomenal complementary abilities was a mistranslation so there is no reason for us to believe their teamwork was something so overpowering it brought shunsui and ukitake to an altogether different league from what they would be individually. Their teamwork might be good however it is not what the mistranslation built it up to be.

I know, I'm the person who pointed out this mistranslation by posting the correct translation in another thread. What I meant was that since both Shunsui and Ukitake are experienced and skillful captains and longtime friends, they fully know each other's abilities and can put up a much better performance when they work as a team.


Using trickery is important and it would be relevant here. Aizen with his kido, speed, reiatsu and zampakuto can take any approach to battle he wants. Aizen can use his illusion to fight indirectly (I do not think yamamoto could destroy aizen easily even in a direct confrontation though) Using his illusion and trickery to leave everyone open is part of his strength. Even then, when aizen finally charged and brought down the captains and vizards they were by all intents and purposes aware of where aizen was. Hitsugaya was charging at aizen for god sake and aizen still was fast enough to shunpo in an cut everyone down in one go.

I don't criticize Aizen for using trickery, I'm just pointing out that things could have been different if other captains didn't fall for Aizen's trick and kept their cool. In Bleach, losing your temper spells doom as stated by Komamura. Shunsui was relatively calm but he committed another mistake and turned his back to Aizen which was a deadly mistake.

I must say that being a bad guy has an inherent advantage in a fight, what Aizen did was only possible for a bad guy, I can't imagine a good guy setting up these kind of tricks and using Momo. If Shunsui or others were bad guys, they wouldn't give a damn about each other and these kind of tricks wouldn't work at all. If Yamamoto had a bad guy mindset, he wouldn't have sacrificed himself and Aizen's plan would have failed. We need to make the distinction between strength and mindset.