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osking
March 15, 2010, 08:53 PM
I think this would be a pretty intresting match if it ever were to happen since the 4 of them are close to each other in power.All characters have access to all abilities shown so far. The battle takes place on the dome of Las Noches.

kkck
March 15, 2010, 09:02 PM
On one side I am of the school of thought that ulquiorra actually achieved an equivalent to bankai hence he was overly absurdly powerful. On the other hand, tousen is a captain level dude who can put on a mask which most likely provided him with a boost in power comparable to what the espada gained from hollowification and on top of that a resurreccion which is no less extreme. No idea, all I can think of is that the battle will not be decided by either ichigo or starrk (unless he goes into his hollow form in which case he pawns mostly IMHO)

Delbi
March 15, 2010, 10:06 PM
This is a no brainer, Stark and Tousen take it. Tousen's Bankai abilities would screw both Ichigo and Ulquiorra. Not to mention, once Tousen puts his mask on he's extremely powerful.

Stark is just overkill. The guy can shoot 100 cero's at once, and his hounds would tear both Ichigo and Uliquiorra to pieces. Not to mention he's faster than everyone. He died because of the second most hax shikai in all of Bleach. If it hadn't been for that he would have kept blowing the shit out of everyone.

El Samurai Guapo
March 16, 2010, 01:30 AM
This is a no brainer, Stark and Tousen take it. Tousen's Bankai abilities would screw both Ichigo and Ulquiorra. Not to mention, once Tousen puts his mask on he's extremely powerful.

Stark is just overkill. The guy can shoot 100 cero's at once, and his hounds would tear both Ichigo and Uliquiorra to pieces. Not to mention he's faster than everyone. He died because of the second most hax shikai in all of Bleach. If it hadn't been for that he would have kept blowing the shit out of everyone.

I second this, Starrk alone would annihilate them both. Same goes for Kaname, he obviously died of a fluke, but seeing how easily he destroyed Sajin's bankai, could easily wreck Ichigo and Ulquiorra with the same attack.

Going back to Starrk though, the spirit wolves were easily the most impressive technique displayed by any arrancar so far. What do Ichigo and Ulquiorra have that can top that? A lance that would never even come close to hitting someone like Starrk, and an attack called getsuga tenshou, which a sealed espada can easily brush away.

Starrk has already faced much stronger opponents and prevailed. He was able to easily figure out Ukitake Jushirou's shikai, and fight off two vizard captains simultaneously.

And let's face it, both Love and Rose are light years ahead of Ichigo. Aikawa Love alone would club the sh*t out of Ichigo and that overgrown bat. Oh, by the way, Shunsui's shikai isn't the second most hax, that title belongs to Sakanade (Shinji's zanpakutou).

samlovesclau
March 16, 2010, 02:16 AM
Sorry but KS is not the most hax shikai in all bleach, that title belongs to RJ

Eternal_Breath
March 16, 2010, 06:12 AM
Starrk and Tousen would win hands down, I mean really think about the sides: espada 1 and ex-captain/hybrid who had control over his hollow vs espada 4 and a 15 year old captain class hybrid who's current control over his hollow seems to be limited (and falters frequently/at least once an arc).

And because I know someone will bring it up:

1>4. Why? because Aizen was the one who numbered them. Even with Ulquiorra's claim I doubt that Aizen was clueless that Ulq may have been hiding some power from him.
Ichigo's new mask and hollow form are probably too unstable as they are now. The new mask seems to put a lot of strain on Ichi and his hollow form without something to focus on (Orihime for example) otherwise he's indiscriminately destructive and just as likely to attack Ulq as he is the other two

Of course this is just what I think, but in my mind until these two points can be dis-proven without a doubt it'd go to Starrk and Tousen

BaddAzzKenpachi74
March 16, 2010, 08:31 AM
hey samlovesclau
theres a HUGE diffrence between hax and just being EXTREMELY powerfull.
and RJ isn't hax.
it is just the STRONGEST Zan in SS history.
and who would even make this thread?
it had to be someone who still beleives that BS that Ulquarra is the strongest Espada*facepalm*.
it so freaken obvious who would win.
Stark is the 1# espada and Ulquarra fans should accept that.
so its obvious Stark and Tousen would win this hands down.
now the polls seem to be in the favor of Ulquarra but that just shows how far fanboys will go since only Kkck is the only Ulquarra fan that has replied and try to reason for Ulquarra.
overall he still didn't give a good reason as to HOW they would win and i doubt any Ulquarra fan could.
heres a scenerio.
Tousen uses his Bankai and Ichigo and Ulquarra "who haven't seen it" are caught in it.
Stark goes above the dark dome and fires 1000s of ceros and send around 30 untopable wolves to attack.
ICHIGO AND ULQUARRA GET COMPLETELY DEMOLISHED!!!
Tousen doesn't even have to go Vizard form in this situation and they still would destroy those two.
and the strongest attack Ulquarra has show could EASILY be dodged by Stark since
1.Stark is shown to be 1 of the FASTEST bleach characters ever
and
2.Ulquarra said so himeself that he has problems even aiming the damn thing and trust me he is going to need to aim it PERFECTLY to be able to attempt to hit someone like Stark.
fact is there's nothing those 2 can do to beat Stark or Tousen and i dare any Ulquarra fan to try to come up with a lOGICAL scenerio were they could
ps.
Ulquarra is the FOURTH ESPADA get over it and deal with it:p
he would get demolished by Stark alone:amuse

Darth Executor
March 16, 2010, 09:07 AM
Oh, by the way, Shunsui's shikai isn't the second most hax, that title belongs to Sakanade (Shinji's zanpakutou).

How is shinji's shikai more hax than tousen's? They both obscure the senses, but you can adapt your senses to shinji's. you can't do the same with tousen's.

Gran Maestro
March 16, 2010, 10:20 AM
If we are not talking about Ichigo H2, Stark and Tousen win this pretty easily. Even Stark may be enough to defeat them both.

conn-man
March 16, 2010, 01:37 PM
i agree with several other people that stark and/or tousen could handle both ulquiorra and ichigo by themselves. starks wolf attack is just all to devastating, ulquiorras only defense against them would be cero oscuras(which could work) or swating them with his tail which we have seen from love and rose doesnt help.

tousen has the liberty of choosing from an array of ways ot kill them both, ressurection, bankai w/mask, or just bankai. this is assuming though that kaname didnt lose access to his bankai due to hollowfication,but im sure he just knew that bankai wouldnt work against komamuras knowledge of its ability and the destructive power of his bankai, i think it would easily destroy the dome.

hakuthehedgehog
March 16, 2010, 02:06 PM
Whouldn't Ulquiorra be able to tank the wolves blasts with his wings and reiatsu and regenerate?
Also, Cero Oscuras and Lanza could destroy some of the wolves, in the same fashion Rose destroyed them.
Anyways, this fight is useless since Hichigo said he whould surface whenever Ichigo was in danger, so Ichigonator whould curbstomb all of them easily.
However, if he aren't counting H2 transformation, then Stark and Tousen probably win this 60/40

BaddAzzKenpachi74
March 16, 2010, 02:13 PM
Whouldn't Ulquiorra be able to tank the wolves blasts with his wings and reiatsu and regenerate?
Also, Cero Oscuras and Lanza could destroy some of the wolves, in the same fashion Rose destroyed them.
Anyways, this fight is useless since Hichigo said he whould surface whenever Ichigo was in danger, so Ichigonator whould curbstomb all of them easily.
However, if he aren't counting H2 transformation, then Stark and Tousen probably win this 60/40
ok
1.Ulquarra is the FOURTH ESPADA untilll ("CONFIRMED") otherwise wich means he isn't about to tank anything from the ("FIRST") espada Stark.
2.wut part of UNSTOPABLE wolves don't u understand?
sure Rose did destroy them be Imediatly afterwards they reformed because they are "intangible" wich means they can't be destroyed
3.we don't have a certain powerlevel set on Ichigonator since he only owned the FOURTH espada so you just can't say for sure he will just own Stark and Tousen.
4.your still not giving a good scenerio as to HOW they would win.
look at my post above. thats a very likely scenerio that a laid out and yet no one can make a descent reply against it because they know its true.
all i'm saying is given manga FACTS and NOT assumptions Tousen and Stark take this very easily.

osking
March 16, 2010, 02:35 PM
Wow, thread is getting interesting! But anyways let me post my thoughts on this. Ichigonater IS included in this fight, I shoulda posted it in the OP. I would give this one to Ichi/Ulq because:

~Ulquiorra's Lanza is destructive from what we've seen and its range is vast, so Starrk's Wolf Cero wouldnt be any problem since the Lanza's explosion range would devour the wolves in the explosion, and not to mention Starrk's regular cero's have not shown to be nearly as devastating as the Lanza, plus he can fire them one after another.
~His regeneration would prove a problem for both Starrk and Tousen, and likewise Tousen's regeneration would likewise prove a problem (assuming he cant regenerate limbs but if he cant, Ichigonater just Sonido's around him, tearing his limbs off just like with Ulq)
~Ichigonater was able to overpower what was claimed by Ulq to be the strongest kind of cero with just a regular cero, so I think Ichigonater's cero could atleast match Starrk's Wolf Cero.
~Tousen's Hollow Form was powerful, able to cut through Komamura's Bankai (albiet on the wrist), withstand a arm crippling blow, regenerate it, and in his Resurrecion he injured Komamura with his 9 ring attack and stopped Komamura's Bankai by the BLADE and even crippled it, yet I still think a full pwoered Cero from Ichigonater and a instantaneous Cero Oscura from Ulquiorra at the same time.

Has anyone ever thought of the fact that since Hichigo claimed he and Zangetsu were one in the same that Ichigonater could use GT?

El Samurai Guapo
March 16, 2010, 02:36 PM
How is shinji's shikai more hax than tousen's? They both obscure the senses, but you can adapt your senses to shinji's. you can't do the same with tousen's.

That's tousen's bankai, not his shikai....

hakuthehedgehog
March 16, 2010, 02:38 PM
I was under the impression that the wolves were destroyed by Roses's explosion: how could have they reformed if they were blown into nothing?
I don't see why Ulquiorra whouldn't be able to withstand the explosion of the wolves, or that it whould give him fatal injuries, Rose and Love were able to take it and they weren't down for the count, not even seriously injured, Ulqiorra's wings should provide him more protection, even if they get blown up, he can just regrow them.
The reason I say H2 Ichigo whould pwn all of them is because he is stupidly fast, his cero has an absurd blast radius and his high speed regeneration just makes his impervious to most attack, except maybe for the head.

BaddAzzKenpachi74
March 16, 2010, 02:48 PM
Wow, thread is getting interesting! But anyways let me post my thoughts on this. Ichigonater IS included in this fight, I shoulda posted it in the OP. I would give this one to Ichi/Ulq because:

~Ulquiorra's Lanza is destructive from what we've seen and its range is vast, so Starrk's Wolf Cero wouldnt be any problem since the Lanza's explosion range would devour the wolves in the explosion, and not to mention Starrk's regular cero's have not shown to be nearly as devastating as the Lanza, plus he can fire them one after another.
~His regeneration would prove a problem for both Starrk and Tousen, and likewise Tousen's regeneration would likewise prove a problem (assuming he cant regenerate limbs but if he cant, Ichigonater just Sonido's around him, tearing his limbs off just like with Ulq)
~Ichigonater was able to overpower what was claimed by Ulq to be the strongest kind of cero with just a regular cero, so I think Ichigonater's cero could atleast match Starrk's Wolf Cero.
~Tousen's Hollow Form was powerful, able to cut through Komamura's Bankai (albiet on the wrist), withstand a arm crippling blow, regenerate it, and in his Resurrecion he injured Komamura with his 9 ring attack and stopped Komamura's Bankai by the BLADE and even crippled it, yet I still think a full pwoered Cero from Ichigonater and a instantaneous Cero Oscura from Ulquiorra at the same time.

Has anyone ever thought of the fact that since Hichigo claimed he and Zangetsu were one in the same that Ichigonater could use GT?
once again do you NOT understand the meaning of UNSTOPABLE wolves?
Lanza would only wipe them out "momentarliy" but immediatly afterwards they will reform and attack him again.
and don't try to downplay there power either since they caused a explosion bigger then FKT itself.
and like its already been CONFIRMED before Ulquarra can aim the lance worth of shit.
how is he going to posibly aim it while in the Dark Dom that is Tousen's bankai?
not to mention he won't be ablle to even touch Stark with it.
face it Ulquarra is the fourth espada for a reason and he has no feats that put him above Stark sssooooo.
i'll say the same thing and please attempt a counter if you can;)
Tousen releases Bankai and trapes them in the Black dome were they can't hear,see etc.
Stark goes above the dome and fires 1000s of ceros and sends 30 "unstopable" wolves in there.
HOW will those two be able to beat something like that?
and this isn't even Tousen useing a mask
[hr]

I was under the impression that the wolves were destroyed by Roses's explosion: how could have they reformed if they were blown into nothing?
I don't see why Ulquiorra whouldn't be able to withstand the explosion of the wolves, or that it whould give him fatal injuries, Rose and Love were able to take it and they weren't down for the count, not even seriously injured, Ulqiorra's wings should provide him more protection, even if they get blown up, he can just regrow them.
The reason I say H2 Ichigo whould pwn all of them is because he is stupidly fast, his cero has an absurd blast radius and his high speed regeneration just makes his impervious to most attack, except maybe for the head.
no they REFORMED after being destroyed by Love and Rose.
look here
http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/373/09/
and here
http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/373/12/
and read CLOSELY to wuts happening and being said.
the wolves are like flames and CAN'T be destroyed and after the page of my second link the wolves are completly fine and attacking again.
there "intangible" wich means all attacks go through them and don't hurt or kill them since they are merely parts of Starks and lilinets spirit

conn-man
March 16, 2010, 02:52 PM
yes, rose destroyed a wolf with that attack, one wolf if you check out the chapter. so explosive attacks work but to what extent? the wolves arnt exactly comming at you in a straight line, they come from all directions including underground, thats perfect attack coverage.

hakuthehedgehog
March 16, 2010, 02:52 PM
First of all, the wolves were never said to be completely unstopable.
Some of the wolves were completely destroyed by Rose's shikai explosion.
Also, the bankai dome can be destroyed either by lanza del relampago, GT or just Ulquiorra's ressurection.

BaddAzzKenpachi74
March 16, 2010, 03:01 PM
First of all, the wolves were never said to be completely unstopable.
Some of the wolves were completely destroyed by Rose's shikai explosion.
Also, the bankai dome can be destroyed either by lanza del relampago, GT or just Ulquiorra's ressurection.
hhmm so weres your PROOF of wut your claiming?
the wolves are like flames so doubt a explosion could destroy them.
infact it should make there flame like states stronger
and seeing as how Ulquarra can't even aim Lanza correctly how will he destroy the dome?
especially while he is inside.
your grasping staws here dude your not giving me any reasonable scenerio other then your assumptions that the dome can be destroyed "even tho its only proven that you have to beat Tousen FIRST" and GT isn't nearly on a huge enough scale to destroy such a huge dome.
from wut i've seen GT explosions isn't even bigger then a SMALL building so how will it destroy such a huge dome.
face it dude those 2 will win the the scenerio i gave is the most likely scenerio to happen.
and once again Stark#1>Ulquarra#4;)
deal with it:p

hakuthehedgehog
March 16, 2010, 03:08 PM
http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/373/11/
This shows that an explosion is able to destroy the wolves, albeit it just destroyed one.
If your inside the dome, you don't even need to aim the Lanza, the explosion will destroy it no matter where you aim it.
GT just needs to open a crack on the dome, then you can escape it.
Again, Ichigonator can take anything Tosen and Stark can throw at him and own them like it was nothing with his cero, high speed regeneration and speed.

osking
March 16, 2010, 03:13 PM
once again do you NOT understand the meaning of UNSTOPABLE wolves?
Lanza would only wipe them out "momentarliy" but immediatly afterwards they will reform and attack him again.
and don't try to downplay there power either since they caused a explosion bigger then FKT itself.
and like its already been CONFIRMED before Ulquarra can aim the lance worth of shit.
how is he going to posibly aim it while in the Dark Dom that is Tousen's bankai?
not to mention he won't be ablle to even touch Stark with it.
face it Ulquarra is the fourth espada for a reason and he has no feats that put him above Stark sssooooo.
i'll say the same thing and please attempt a counter if you can
Tousen releases Bankai and trapes them in the Black dome were they can't hear,see etc.
Stark goes above the dome and fires 1000s of ceros and sends 30 "unstopable" wolves in there.
HOW will those two be able to beat something like that?
and this isn't even Tousen useing a mask


once again do you NOT understand the meaning of UNSTOPABLE wolves?
~Starrk's wolves werent unstoppable.


Lanza would only wipe them out "momentarliy" but immediatly afterwards they will reform and attack him again.
~I fail to see how they would reform once they've been distentigrated completely.


and don't try to downplay there power either since they caused a explosion bigger then FKT itself.
The wolves created explosions bigger than FKT? What a lie. Look at this (http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/373/13/)


face it Ulquarra is the fourth espada for a reason and he has no feats that put him above Stark sssooooo.
I know Ulquiorra isnt ahead of Starrk, thats why Ulquiorra has someone with him that can match Starrk (Ichigonater).


i'll say the same thing and please attempt a counter if you can
Lol sounds like your trying to attack me and not the topic.


and like its already been CONFIRMED before Ulquarra can aim the lance worth of shit.
~Its been confirmed that he cant aim the Lance properly.


how is he going to posibly aim it while in the Dark Dom that is Tousen's bankai?
What?


not to mention he won't be ablle to even touch Stark with it.
Ichigonater Sonido's behind Starrk, grabs him and Ulquiorra rams the Lanza in his face.


Tousen releases Bankai and trapes them in the Black dome were they can't hear,see etc.
And they break out of it just like Kenpachi did.


Stark goes above the dome and fires 1000s of ceros and sends 30 "unstopable" wolves in there. HOW will those two be able to beat something like that?
Simple, Ichigonater spams Cero like crazy and Ulquiorra spams Instaneous Cero Oscua's and Lanza's like crazy.


and this isn't even Tousen useing a mask
And obviously Tousen doesnt stand a chance against Ichigonator or R2 Ulquiorra without his mask.

Btw learn to spell

Xerneas
March 16, 2010, 03:13 PM
Ulquiorra doesn't even have a place in this fight, to be honest. Its all about Ichigo. If he can use Ichigonator, he solo stomps. If not, he and his nihilist pal get massacred. VB Ichigo is a joke here. Ulquiorra can't do anything to Starrk because his best attack is too slow/inaccurate. His other attacks are too weak to do any damage (remember that Starrk tanked Love's power-packed Shi Kai blast without a scratch). And he would be devastated by Kaname's soundwave.

exacta
March 16, 2010, 03:14 PM
People severely underestimate Stark.He was defeated through Shunsui's cunning and his own lack of focus, he was never overpowered. The guy's seriously strong. Plenty of characters have stated it, it's not like the debate on his general strength is open to speculation. He's not weak, he IS pretty freaking strong. If it's not Ichigonator and just Ichigo with R1 Ulquiorra, Stark and Tousen hands down. If it is Ichigonator, Tousens ressurecion might have a chance at defeating Ichigonator, so it's not out of question. Don't think Tousen and Stark could handle both Ichigonator and R2 Ulquiorra though, Ichigonator just looks too tough for them to fight in addition to Ulquiorra. I guess out of the 4, Ichigonator is strongest, and at best Tousen could tie with Ichigonator by himself, though I doubt it. And, too hard to tell whether Ulquiorra R2 is stronger than Stark or not.....

BaddAzzKenpachi74
March 16, 2010, 03:15 PM
http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/373/11/
This shows that an explosion is able to destroy the wolves, albeit it just destroyed one.
If your inside the dome, you don't even need to aim the Lanza, the explosion will destroy it no matter where you aim it.
GT just needs to open a crack on the dome, then you can escape it.
Again, Ichigonator can take anything Tosen and Stark can throw at him and own them like it was nothing with his cero, high speed regeneration and speed.
so wut your saying is Ulquarra is going to shoot the GROUND while in the dome and posibly destroy himeself and Ichgio Inside?
dude you underistimate the power of that attack.
if Ulquarra and Ichigo get caught in it theve basically owned themselves.
and as far as the wolf thing goes i wen't back and read it and yes it appears that only ONE was destroyed but i doubt Ulquarra would still be able to hit them with the lance given how fast they are and how poortly Ulquarra's aim is.
and your talking like Ichigo will know were to fire GT.
and even then like i said the dome only can be destroyed are opened after beating Tousen wich they won't be able to do if he is above it.:p
nice try but try again because your still not creating a LOGICAL scenerio were those 2 can win

conn-man
March 16, 2010, 03:17 PM
alright, im seeing ichigonator starting to get thrown around now, and i know people would hate to admit it but i think tousens ressurection can contend with it. grilla grillo had massive powerful physically, stopping a down swing from komas bankai bare handed and breaking the blade? that doenst seem to far from ichigonator stopping lanzela.

osking
March 16, 2010, 03:20 PM
alright, im seeing ichigonator starting to get thrown around now, and i know people would hate to admit it but i think tousens ressurection can contend with. grilla grillo was was massivly powerful physically, stopping a down swing from komas bankai bare handed and breaking the sword, that doenst seem to far from ichigonator stopping lanzela.

Yeah its basically no different. Komamura's Bankai is powerful and was stopped 1 handed by R-Tousen. And R2 Ulquiorra's Lanza is powerful and was stopped 1 handed by Ichigonator. We've all seen how destructive both of their attacks was, and then someone even stronger comes along and stops a mudhole in it.

hakuthehedgehog
March 16, 2010, 03:21 PM
Ulqiorra doesn't need Lanza in this battle, he can use Cero oscuras to destroy the dome or even Stark's wolfes.
Anyways this is not Ulqiorra's fight, it's H2 Ichigo.
If they both know each other's powers, then Ulqiorra stays back, while Ichigo charges head on.
Ichigo is owned and his Hollow goes rampage on Stark and Tousen, owning them using his Cero, sonido and high speed regenetarion.
When he is almost finished, Ulqui throws him out of H2 using lanza and finishes them off.
That is a logical outcome IMO.

BaddAzzKenpachi74
March 16, 2010, 03:25 PM
Yeah its basically no different. Komamura's Bankai is powerful and was stopped 1 handed by R-Tousen. And R2 Ulquiorra's Lanza is powerful and was stopped 1 handed by Ichigonator. We've all seen how destructive both of their attacks was, and then someone even stronger comes along and stops a mudhole in it.
ok given YOUR logic here
Tousen=Ichigonator
Stark>Ulquarra.
so HOW could they win given YOUR logic here dude because it seems you just proved your own initial assesment mute lol:D
[hr]

Ulqiorra doesn't need Lanza in this battle, he can use Cero oscuras to destroy the dome or even Stark's wolfes.
Anyways this is not Ulqiorra's fight, it's H2 Ichigo.
If they both know each other's powers, then Ulqiorra stays back, while Ichigo charges head on.
Ichigo is owned and his Hollow goes rampage on Stark and Tousen, owning them using his Cero, sonido and high speed regenetarion.
When he is almost finished, Ulqui throws him out of H2 using lanza and finishes them off.
That is a logical outcome IMO.
not to me
explain
WHY
a.Tousen didn't go bankai,Vizard,or Ressureccion in your scenerio
b.explain how come Stark never used his battle intellect to find a outcome
c.explain how Ichigonator could posibly deal with Ressureccion Tousen.
d.explain why Stark didn't just go over and OWN Ulquarra instead of helping Tousen jump Ichigo "wich is something he wouldn't do given his character".
sorry no disrespect but you scenerio doesn't seem likely at all

osking
March 16, 2010, 03:29 PM
ok given YOUR logic here
Tousen=Ichigonator
Stark>Ulquarra.
so HOW could they win given YOUR logic here dude because it seems you just proved your own initial assesment mute lol:D

I only suggested that (or atleast was trying to) Ichigonator's physical strength is about equal to Resurrecion Tousen's physical strength since the power of Komamura's Bankai and R2 Ulquiorra's Lanza dont seem much different. And just because Starrk is no. 1 doesnt mean he's gonna curbstomp Ulquiorra either. Going by MY logic Ulquiorra wouldnt be that far behind Baraggan and Starrk was a bit ahead of Baraggan, so therefore the difference between Ulquiorra and Starrk should be about medium. Your logic is asinine and over-exaggerated.

BaddAzzKenpachi74
March 16, 2010, 03:35 PM
I only suggested that (or atleast was trying to) Ichigonator's physical strength is about equal to Resurrecion Tousen's physical strength since the power of Komamura's Bankai and R2 Ulquiorra's Lanza dont seem much different. And just because Starrk is no. 1 doesnt mean he's gonna curbstomp Ulquiorra either. Going by MY logic Ulquiorra wouldnt be that far behind Baraggan and Starrk was a bit ahead of Baraggan, so therefore the difference between Ulquiorra and Starrk should be about medium. Your logic is asinine and over-exaggerated.
how is my logic "asinine" when i never tried to apply any?
come on dude don't get mad at me because you basically proved your original point of Stark/Tousen<Ulquarra/Ichigo mute and false lol:p
even if were to go by wut u just said Ulquarra isn't THAT far behind barragan right?
so Stark is still better and stronger and basically it would come down to
Stark vs Ulquarra (Stark wins)
Tousen vs Ichigonator (undecided)
so all in all there should be no way those 2 could win RIGHT?
are do you wana change something else you originally stated around again:amuse

hakuthehedgehog
March 16, 2010, 03:36 PM
*Sigh*
Ok.
Tousens bankai: A crack can be opened by GT which can be pointed anywhere.
Hichigo can use cero and destroy it.
Ulquiorra can ressurect, destroying it, or use cero Oscuras to destroy it.
Tousen's ressurection: It might be able to grab Hichigo, but he can just use cero(s) to own it's face, plus none of his offensive techniques can get past H2 Hollow ressurection.
If Stark attacks Hichigo, then he is beaten with a mix of speed, cero's, while Hichigo tanks his wolves like a pro (Rose and love weren't beaten so badly by a barrage of them) and regenerates.
If Stark Attacks Ulquiorra, then he should be able to hold off his wolves using his wings to pratially protect from the blast (again, see love and Rose's damage) and Cero Oscuras to destroy some of them.
Plus, if the strategy is to use Hichigo to kill Stark, he should be able to stall him while Hichigo curbstomps Tousen and proceeds to attack Stark or Ulquiorra, killing them or maybe just Stark.
Logical enough for you?

conn-man
March 16, 2010, 03:39 PM
And just because Starrk is no. 1 doesnt mean he's gonna curbstomp Ulquiorra either. Going by MY logic Ulquiorra wouldnt be that far behind Baraggan and Starrk was a bit ahead of Baraggan, so therefore the difference between Ulquiorra and Starrk should be about medium. Your logic is asinine and over-exaggerated.

dude im latley starting to acknowlede that even hallibel seemed stronger than ulquiorra, before she released she was wiping the floor with hitsuguya using bankai, ressurection is what screwed her. when she lite up that sword she was unleashing some big hits. even though, in ressurection she had some good attacks, la gota was causing some big explosions and cascada looked like it had the force of a powerful cero, dont forget water is heavier than most people on this forum seem to be imagining.

what im trying to say is ulquiorras rank of 4th makes sense, and stark, barragan and questionably hallibel all had qualities that put them above him.

BaddAzzKenpachi74
March 16, 2010, 03:42 PM
*Sigh*
Ok.
Tousens bankai: A crack can be opened by GT which can be pointed anywhere.
Hichigo can use cero and destroy it.
Ulquiorra can ressurect, destroying it, or use cero Oscuras to destroy it.
Tousen's ressurection: It might be able to grab Hichigo, but he can just use cero(s) to own it's face, plus none of his offensive techniques can get past H2 Hollow ressurection.
If Stark attacks Hichigo, then he is beaten with a mix of speed, cero's, while Hichigo tanks his wolves like a pro (Rose and love weren't beaten so badly by a barrage of them) and regenerates.
If Stark Attacks Ulquiorra, then he should be able to hold off his wolves using his wings to pratially protect from the blast (again, see love and Rose's damage) and Cero Oscuras to destroy some of them.
Plus, if the strategy is to use Hichigo to kill Stark, he should be able to stall him while Hichigo curbstomps Tousen and proceeds to attack Stark or Ulquiorra, killing them or maybe just Stark.
Logical enough for you?
BETTER but still not logical
a.how will Ichigonator curbstomp Resurrecion Tousen?
from wut we have seen they can't be that far behind eachother in power
b.like said before and you CONITINUE to ignore the manga shows that you can ONLY destroy the dome by beating Tousen first so Ulquarra and Ichigo won't be able to destroy it without taking out Tousen and like i said if Tousen is above the dome how are they gonna find him
c.considering how Ulquarra is the 4th espada there is no way he should posibly be able to hold off Stark untill Ichigonator is done with Tousen
all in all you painted a BETTER scenerio but once again not a logical one

conn-man
March 16, 2010, 03:48 PM
like i said ifTousen is above the dome how are they gonna find him
c.considering how Ulquarra is the 4th espada there is no way he should posibly be able to hold off Stark untill Ichigonator is done with Tousen
all in all you painted a BETTER scenerio but once again not a logical one

i really like that concept, tousen using his bankai (mistakenly said ressurection), in the world of the living would enable him to stand 20, 30, even 40 feet above his opponents.

BaddAzzKenpachi74
March 16, 2010, 03:50 PM
i really like that concept, tousen using his ressurection in the world of the living would enable him to stand 20, 30, even 40 feet above his opponents.
THATS MY POINT!!!;)
the manga confirms that the ONLY way to break the effect of the Bankai is to beat Tousen.
if Tousen is above the dome then they are just sitting ducks that can't hear or see.
Stark fires 1000s of ceros and sends 30 "intangible" wolves in while Tousen maybe fires some kido or goes Ressurrecion and attacks from the air then those 2 wouldn't stand a chance

osking
March 16, 2010, 03:56 PM
how is my logic "asinine" when i never tried to apply any?
come on dude don't get mad at me because you basically proved your original point of Stark/Tousen<Ulquarra/Ichigo mute and false lol:p
even if were to go by wut u just said Ulquarra isn't THAT far behind barragan right?
so Stark is still better and stronger and basically it would come down to
Stark vs Ulquarra (Stark wins)
Tousen vs Ichigonator (undecided)
so all in all there should be no way those 2 could win RIGHT?
are do you wana change something else you originally stated around again:amuse

It is asinine because you claim that Starrk's wolves were unstoppable which wasnt true, you claim that Ulquiorra has no feats at all that arent even close to Starrk's which also isnt true, you claim the wolves explosions were bigger than FKT itself which isnt true and you claim the wolves would reform even after being destroyed, which yet again isnt true.

How did I prove my point of Starrk/Tousen being weaker than Ichigo/Ulquiorra? In terms of spiritual pressure, Ulquiorra shouldnt be THAT far behind. You act as if Starrk curbstomps Ulquiorra but never explain how Starrk would win. Ichigonater would beat Tousen unless he enters his Resurrecion. I never changed anything I stated.


dude im latley starting to acknowlede that even hallibel seemed stronger than ulquiorra, before she released she was wiping the floor with hitsuguya using bankai, ressurection is what screwed her. when she lite up that sword she was unleashing some big hits. even in ressurection la gota was causing some big explosions and cascada looked like it had the force of a powerful cero, dont forget water is heavier than most people on this forum seem to be imagining.

what im trying to say is ulquiorras rank of 4th makes sense, and stark, barragan and speculatively halibel all had qualities that put them above him.

From what I've seen Ulquiorra is stronger than she is in his 2nd Resurrecion, but MAYBE that could be because Ulquiorra was in Hueco Mundo where the Espada gains a boost of power, so Hallibel were to fight Ulq in Hueco Mundo then yeah I'd say she could beat R2 Ulquiorra in a fight and in terms of spiritual pressure, but most people dont go by Hueco Mundo giving arrancar boosts so I never really bring it up in topics since arguments will start.

conn-man
March 16, 2010, 03:56 PM
THATS MY POINT!!!
the manga confirms that the ONLY way to break the effect of the Bankai is to beat Tousen.
if Tousen is above the dome then they are just sitting ducks that can't hear or see.
Stark fires 1000s of ceros and sends 30 "intangible" wolves in while Tousen maybe fires some kido or goes Ressurrecion and attacks from the air then those 2 wouldn't stand a chance

its highly speculative and kinda stupid since its so far off canon, but i would imagine that tousen could master suzumushi to such an extent that he wouldnt even have to be in the dome when he traps someone in it.

BaddAzzKenpachi74
March 16, 2010, 03:59 PM
its highly speculative and kinda stupid since its so far off canon, but i would imagine that tousen could master suzumushi to such an extent that he wouldnt even have to be in the dome when he traps someone in it.
i see no reason why he couldn't go outside the dome.
and how is it stupid?
the effects of the bankai only ware off if he is beat so i doubt his bankai will disapear of he goes outside of it.
and he doesn't have to activate the bankai away from himeself either.
all he has to do is activate it and while inside easily escape to the outside simple as that

conn-man
March 16, 2010, 04:06 PM
i see no reason why he couldn't go outside the dome.
and how is it stupid?
the effects of the bankai only ware off if he is beat so i doubt his bankai will disapear of he goes outside of it.
and he doesn't have to activate the bankai away from himeself either.
all he has to do is activate it and while inside easily escape to the outside simple as that

sounds like a good tactic to discover and observe a powerful attack should the person trapped in the dome use one to escape, rather than waiting for it to get used against himself.

BaddAzzKenpachi74
March 16, 2010, 04:06 PM
It is asinine because you claim that Starrk's wolves were unstoppable which wasnt true, you claim that Ulquiorra has no feats at all that arent even close to Starrk's which also isnt true, you claim the wolves explosions were bigger than FKT itself which isnt true and you claim the wolves would reform even after being destroyed, which yet again isnt true.

How did I prove my point of Starrk/Tousen being weaker than Ichigo/Ulquiorra? In terms of spiritual pressure, Ulquiorra shouldnt be THAT far behind. You act as if Starrk curbstomps Ulquiorra but never explain how Starrk would win. Ichigonater would beat Tousen unless he enters his Resurrecion. I never changed anything I stated.
ok

From what I've seen Ulquiorra is stronger than she is in his 2nd Resurrecion, but MAYBE that could be because Ulquiorra was in Hueco Mundo where the Espada gains a boost of power, so Hallibel were to fight Ulq in Hueco Mundo then yeah I'd say she could beat R2 Ulquiorra in a fight and in terms of spiritual pressure, but most people dont go by Hueco Mundo giving arrancar boosts so I never really bring it up in topics since arguments will start.

1.the wolves ARE unstopable for the most part since it takes a HUGE explosion just to kill 1.
2.the explosion WAS Taller the ALL of FKT since it was double the freaken hight of the tall buildings
3.Ulquarra's only REAL feat is his cero lance and he can't even aim the damn thing properly. i hardly think that puts him above Stark.
4.your basing your stuff of assumptions. i'm going by Manga FACT and the fact is Stark#1>Ulquarra#4.
i'm not the one that writes the story so don't get angry at me lol.
and
5.Logically and by Manga FACT given that Stark is 3 ranks above Ulquarra he should curbstomp him for the most part.
now notice i'm not useing "made up" logic here but instead manga facts so i would love to see you argue my points that are from the manga itselff:p

osking
March 16, 2010, 04:31 PM
1.the wolves ARE unstopable for the most part since it takes a HUGE explosion just to kill 1.
2.the explosion WAS Taller the ALL of FKT since it was double the freaken hight of the tall buildings
3.Ulquarra's only REAL feat is his cero lance and he can't even aim the damn thing properly. i hardly think that puts him above Stark.
4.your basing your stuff of assumptions. i'm going by Manga FACT and the fact is Stark#1>Ulquarra#4.
i'm not the one that writes the story so don't get angry at me lol.
and
5.Logically and by Manga FACT given that Stark is 3 ranks above Ulquarra he should curbstomp him for the most part.
now notice i'm not useing "made up" logic here but instead manga facts so i would love to see you argue my points that are from the manga itselff:p

1. Your contradicting yourself.
2. Changing your statements again? You originally stated the explosion was BIGGER (as in size) than FKT, and now your saying its taller:notrust
3. Your saying his only REAL feat was his Lanza when he has another REAL feat, instantaneous cero oscura's?
4. I'm basing it off facts from the manga itself, yours is simply exaggerated.
5. The only thing thats a fact is that YOU think Starrk would curbstomp Ulquiorra when he obviously has 3 feats that would allow him to survive for a while against Starrk. Ulq would end up loosing, but it wouldnt be a curbstomp loss.

Notice you over exaggerate and change your statements. And when did you ever use facts from the manga? I dont see any proof in any of your posts showing anything about facts from the manga other than what you think are facts.

BaddAzzKenpachi74
March 16, 2010, 04:36 PM
1. Your contradicting yourself.
2. Changing your statements again? You originally stated the explosion was BIGGER (as in size) than FKT, and now your saying its taller:notrust
3. Your saying his only REAL feat was his Lanza when he has another REAL feat, instantaneous cero oscura's?
4. I'm basing it off facts from the manga itself, yours is simply exaggerated.
5. The only thing thats a fact is that YOU think Starrk would curbstomp Ulquiorra when he obviously has 3 feats that would allow him to survive for a while against Starrk. Ulq would end up loosing, but it wouldnt be a curbstomp loss.

Notice you over exaggerate and change your statements. And when did you ever use facts from the manga? I dont see any proof in any of your posts showing anything about facts from the manga other than what you think are facts.
we'll didn't know you like to get technical lol
bigger to me =taller so i guess i should have worded it diffrently for people like you who love to get technical.
the manga FACTS i used is
Stark IS the number 1 espada and thus is 3 ranks stronger.
are you trying to say that someone like 7th espada could put up a descent fight against Ulquarra?
or that Grimmjow would be able to give him a run for his money?
fact is that we see how huge the gaps is between ranks and thus Stark shouldn't have to much trouble beating Ulquarra thats all.
and i still don't see you admitting you were wrong.
if Stark>Ulquarra
and
Tousen=Ichigonator "with Ichigonator MAYBE comeing out ontop" how could your first to picks "Ulquarra and Ichigo" posibly win since it'll only turn into a Tousen+ressurrecion and bankai/Stark vs Ichigonator.
and i hope you don't think Ichigonator will curbstomp the 2 of them together lol

conn-man
March 16, 2010, 04:43 PM
cero oscuras was big and powerful but cero meteorajetta had shunsui running for cover, just the look on his face shows that its no joke http://beta.onemanga.com/Bleach/362/13/
http://beta.onemanga.com/Bleach/362/16/ huge coverage
http://beta.onemanga.com/Bleach/362/17/ shunsui acknowledging that its absurdly overwhelming.

i think it would overwhelm oscuras and maybe even ichigonators cero.

osking
March 16, 2010, 04:52 PM
we'll didn't know you like to get technical lol
bigger to me =taller so i guess i should have worded it diffrently for people like you who love to get technical.
the manga FACTS i used it
Stark IS the number 1 espada and thus is 3 ranks stronger.
are you trying to say that someone like 7th espada could put up a descent fight against Ulquarra?
or that Grimmjow would be able to give him a run for his money?
fact is that we see how huge the gaps is between ranks and thus Stark shouldn't have to much trouble beating Ulquarra thats all.
and i still don't see you admitting you were wrong.
if Stark>Uluarra
and
Tousen=Ichigonator "with Ichigonator MAYBE comeing out ontopic" how could your first to picks "Ulquarra and Ichigo" posibly win since it'll only turn into a Tousen+ressurrecion and bankai/Stark vs Ichigonator.
and i hope you don't think Ichigonator will curbstomp the 2 of them together lol

Yeah I get technical when it comes down to Manga (namely Z, Bleach & Naruto). You should've said that bigger = taller to you in a previous post since bigger is width to me, and yeah I like to be technical with debates:tem. Now I see I should've reworded it differently since you didnt get the point I was saying. When I say Manga facts (like most other people), I mean actual links to the pages that shows proof to whatever debate is going on. So what just because Starrk is 3 ranks ahead, you keep advertising that like I'm not buying it. Dont even bring 6th and 7th Espada into this topic since you know and I know they dont stand a chance. In terms of spiritual pressure, yes, the gaps are large but not huge. And thats basically what I've been getting at, Starrk shouldnt have much trouble beating Ulquiorra, meaning Starrk would still have a little trouble due to the Lanza's and Instantanous Cero Oscura's, but that would be about it. Lol its impossible to admit I'm wrong since I havent done anything wrong.

LOOL so pretty much you show that you didnt read the OP then


I think this would be a pretty intresting match if it ever were to happen since the 4 of them are close to each other in power.All characters have access to all abilities shown so far. The battle takes place on the dome of Las Noches.

The part in bold obviously meant that Ichigo could access Ichigonator form. And actually I DID want it to turn into Ichigonator + R2 Ulquiorra vs R-Starrk and R-Tousen, but it would be too long for a title and plus I think it would've been more interesting to see how all of their forms would match up against each other, not just the top's. Ichigonator couldnt curbstomp Tousen/Starrk together, which is why he has Ulquiorra with him :)

BaddAzzKenpachi74
March 16, 2010, 05:02 PM
Yeah I get technical when it comes down to Manga (namely Z, Bleach & Naruto). You should've said that bigger = taller to you in a previous post since bigger is width to me, and yeah I like to be technical with debates:tem. Now I see I should've reworded it differently since you didnt get the point I was saying. When I say Manga facts (like most other people), I mean actual links to the pages that shows proof to whatever debate is going on. So what just because Starrk is 3 ranks ahead, you keep advertising that like I'm not buying it. Dont even bring 6th and 7th Espada into this topic since you know and I know they dont stand a chance. In terms of spiritual pressure, yes, the gaps are large but not huge. And thats basically what I've been getting at, Starrk shouldnt have much trouble beating Ulquiorra, meaning Starrk would still have a little trouble due to the Lanza's and Instantanous Cero Oscura's, but that would be about it. Lol its impossible to admit I'm wrong since I havent done anything wrong.

LOOL so pretty much you show that you didnt read the OP then



The part in bold obviously meant that Ichigo could access Ichigonator form. And actually I DID want it to turn into Ichigonator + R2 Ulquiorra vs R-Starrk and R-Tousen, but it would be too long for a title and plus I think it would've been more interesting to see how all of their forms would match up against each other, not just the top's. Ichigonator couldnt curbstomp Tousen/Starrk together, which is why he has Ulquiorra with him :)
ok you just contradicted yourself lol:amuse
1.you admite Stark will beat Ulquarra despite saying in the title you think the 4 of them are around the same in power.
and threw the whole thread you have tried to make it seem like Ulquarra is VERY close to Stark's level even tho Stark is 3 ranks above him.
and my whole point of bringing espada 7 and 6 into this is because some of your posts have you painting scenerios were Ulquarra could actualy FIGHT stark and hold him off for a long time and if thats the case the Grimmjow and Zommari should be able to do the same.
but we both know thats not the case now do we:D
so why do you keep making it seem like Ulquarra will make a huge diffrence when really all that has to be done is Stark take care of him while Tousen holds of Ichigonator with his Ressureccion and it shouldn't take Stark to long to beat Ulquarra and then once thats over just jump Ichigonator.
the point i'm getting across is no matter how anyone tries to reason it the LOGICAL outcome is Tousen/Stark>Ichigo/Ulquarra.
end of discussion:p

hakuthehedgehog
March 16, 2010, 05:02 PM
Stark said that normal ceros whouldn't be able to produce critical injuries on Rose and Love.
Ichigo, who has more than average captain level reiatsu, was owned by cero oscuras.
I guess that enough ceros whould be able to overcome the cero oscuras, but they whouldn't be able to give critical injuries to Ulquiorra, and he should be able to partially dodge it, then partially counter it with cero oscuras, regenerating when he needs.
I'm not so sure they can overcome Ichigonator's cero, the power and explosion of that thing in beastly.

Eddy01741
March 16, 2010, 05:13 PM
Tousen owned a captain bankai in one blow, 'nuff said.

No but seriously, Tousen takes on one of the strongest captains (strength wise, according to databook) head on, with just his bare hand.

Tousen has shown to be extremely strong and fast in his resurreccion, and just his sheer power is quite scary (seriously, one shotting a bankai, the only other time I can remember that happening is when Aizen owned Hitsugaya back in the SS).

Add to that Stark who is a very competent fighter in his own right (a giant, superfast, super strong cricket attacking you while explosive wolves chase you down....), and I think that duo #2 take it.


___________________________________________________________-

All that said, in the unlikely case that R2 is actually like bankai (5-10 times stronger when mastered), then duo #1 actually have a good chance, but that's a if, a pretty damn big if.

osking
March 16, 2010, 05:16 PM
1.you admite Stark will beat Ulquarra despite saying in the title you think the 4 of them are around the same in power.

In the OP I meant the 4 of them were around the same in spiritual pressure because at the time I didnt think there was much of a difference between the top 4 espada's in terms of spiritual pressure.


and threw the whole thread you have tried to make it seem like Ulquarra is VERY close to Stark's level even tho Stark is 3 ranks above him.
Your the one who over-exaggerated Starrk and started this between us. And I never tried to make it seem like anything, I was simply showing that Ulquiorra wouldnt go down without some resistance unlike you who thinks just because Starrk is 3 ranks ahead he'd curbstomp.


and my whole point of bringing espada 7 and 6 into this is because some of your posts have you painting scenerios were Ulquarra could actually FIGHT stark and hold him off for a long time and if thats the case the Grimmjow and Zommari should be able to do the same.
but we both know thats not the case now do we

I never ever said anything about holding off Starrk for a long time. Zommari and Grimmjow are irrelevant to the topic and not only that but you actually think Grimmjow and Zommari could fight Starrk and hold him off for a long time? Lemme see some proof of your statement :)


so why do you keep making it seem like Ulquarra will make a huge diffrence when really all that has to be done is Stark take care of him while Tousen holds of Ichigonator with his Ressureccion and it shouldn't take Stark to long to be Ulquarra and then once thats over just jump Ichigonator.

You dont get it, Instantaneous Cero Oscura attack is INSTANTANEOUS, and you think Starrk can dodge an attack that is instantaneous? Instantaneous is instantaneous, whether its coming from Ulquiorra or not. He'd simply spam them to keep Starrk from ganging up on Ichigonator with R-Tousen.

conn-man
March 16, 2010, 05:22 PM
You dont get it, Instantaneous Cero Oscura attack is INSTANTANEOUS, and you think Starrk can dodge an attack that is instantaneous? Instantaneous is instantaneous, whether its coming from Ulquiorra or not. He'd simply spam them to keep Starrk from ganging up on Ichigonator with R-Tousen.

come on, stark can spam cero way harder than ulquiorra can, he used meteorra jetta twice in a row and said himself he could manage 1000 INSTANTANEOUS ceros. way harder.

BaddAzzKenpachi74
March 16, 2010, 05:25 PM
In the OP I meant the 4 of them were around the same in spiritual pressure because at the time I didnt think there was much of a difference between the top 4 espada's in terms of spiritual pressure.


Your the one who over-exaggerated Starrk and started this between us. And I never tried to make it seem like anything, I was simply showing that Ulquiorra wouldnt go down without some resistance unlike you who thinks just because Starrk is 3 ranks ahead he'd curbstomp.



I never ever said anything about holding off Starrk for a long time. Zommari and Grimmjow are irrelevant to the topic and not only that but you actually think Grimmjow and Zommari could fight Starrk and hold him off for a long time? Lemme see some proof of your statement :)



You dont get it, Instantaneous Cero Oscura attack is INSTANTANEOUS, and you think Starrk can dodge an attack that is instantaneous? Instantaneous is instantaneous, whether its coming from Ulquiorra or not. He'd simply spam them to keep Starrk from ganging up on Ichigonator with R-Tousen.
ok
1.i never over exagerated him i simply wen't by how big the power is between ranks and thus Stark shouldn't have to much of a problem beating Ulquarra
2.and how are the 7th and 6th espadas irrelevent?
can you not see wut i'm trying to imply?
let me break it down.
Ulquarra is 2 ranks above the 6th and 3 above the 7th.
your making it seem like Ulquarra could put up a battle with Stark even tho we know that Ulquarra could own the 7th espada POSIBLY and beat Grimmjow easily. i NEVER said anything about them fighting Stark so wtf are you talking about:blink
3.instantaneous?
did you forget how fast Stark is?
he TELEPORTS thats faster then instantaneous and did you also forget how fast and many ceros Stark could shoot outta his gun?
read 1 of the posts Conn-man made and LOOK at the page.
Stark can shoot instantaneous ceros also and in MUCH LARGER numbers

osking
March 16, 2010, 05:55 PM
ok
1.i never over exagerated him i simply wen't by how big the power is between ranks and thus Stark shouldn't have to much of a problem beating Ulquarra
2.and how are the 7th and 6th espadas irrelevent?
can you not see wut i'm trying to imply?
let me break it down.
Ulquarra is 2 ranks above the 6th and 3 above the 7th.
your making it seem like Ulquarra could put up a battle with Stark even tho we know that Ulquarra could own the 7th espada POSIBLY and beat Grimmjow easily. i NEVER said anything about them fighting Stark so wtf are you talking about:blink
3.instantaneous?
did you forget how fast Stark is?
he TELEPORTS thats faster then instantaneous and did you also forget how fast and many ceros Stark could shoot outta his gun?
read 1 of the posts Conn-man made and LOOK at the page.
Stark can shoot instantaneous ceros also and in MUCH LARGER numbers

1. Then lets get off this Starrk defeats Ulquiorra thing then since he is most likely gonna end up sacrifing himself to prevent Starrk from interferring with Ichigonator/R-Tousen's fight.
2. Because they have nothing to do with the battle and are fodder to Ulquiorra/higher. Even Nnoitra could beat those two. Ulquiorra is ranks ahead of Grimmjow and Zommari.....so....wtf is your point? Funny how he could possibly own Zommari, yet he defeats someone whom is stronger than Zommari with ease. I'm talkin about what your talking about.
3. Yep, Instantaneous (http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/348/22/)
I dont rememeber anything saying or stating Starrk could teleport. And no, I havent forgotten. Plus have you ever considered the fact that Ulquiorra could simply destroy Starrk's cero guns? Its also irrelevant to how many cero's could either of the espada shoots, it just depends on who gets the first lick in. Btw show me the post Conn-man and then I will look at the page.

hakuthehedgehog
March 16, 2010, 05:59 PM
Starrk is actually just 2 ranks ahead of Ulquiorra: he said there was 3 espada stronger than him, and Yammy is 0.

osking
March 16, 2010, 06:18 PM
1. Yay
2. Lol explain how Zommari and Grimmjow would have a chance to survive like Ulquiorra would. Thats what I wanna know. Yep, he wont go down that easy to the likes of Starrk and I will continue to say this simply because you continue to say Starrk would beat him because he is 3 ranks above. The gap between Ulquiorra and Starrk is much closer than compared to that of Ulquiorra and Zommari, heck the gap between Grimmjow and Zommari is huge.
3. I take it by your state of shock you see that Starrk cant easily dodge something that is instantaneous, whether it came from someone weaker or stronger than him.
Instantaneous is what I call it, just like how Ulquiorra's Cero was there for 1 second, then a split second later its gone and there is a hole in Ichigo's chest.
Lol obviously because Starrk was far too fast for him to keep up. There is a difference between someone who can teleport and move at high speeds. And btw, Starrk used Sonido, not teleportation.
Well your book is wrong then since Sonido and teleportation arent the same. Were talking about Bankai Ichigo and the slow ass Kenpachi.

Delbi
March 16, 2010, 07:02 PM
To clarify, Stark moved so fast that it seemed like he was teleporting. He's certainly in the running for the fastest figher in Bleach.

But seriously, Stark is waaaay beyond Ulquiorra's level. He fought 4 people who would likely destroy Ulquiorra and only died because of an extremely over powering Shikai. The fact that his reatsu alone killed hollows by him just standing there is a testimate to how fucking powerful he is. He didn't even fight seriously before he died because of how lazy he is.

vizardichigo
March 16, 2010, 07:21 PM
Starrk > Ulq
Tousen vs Ichigo will be an interesting one...Ichigo has the power but Tousen has the kidou and his bankai....I think it will end up being Starrk and Tousen double teaming Ichigo and he would lose...So Starrk and Tousen for the win...

El Samurai Guapo
March 16, 2010, 07:54 PM
Stark said that normal ceros whouldn't be able to produce critical injuries on Rose and Love.
Ichigo, who has more than average captain level reiatsu, was owned by cero oscuras.
I guess that enough ceros whould be able to overcome the cero oscuras, but they whouldn't be able to give critical injuries to Ulquiorra, and he should be able to partially dodge it, then partially counter it with cero oscuras, regenerating when he needs.
I'm not so sure they can overcome Ichigonator's cero, the power and explosion of that thing in beastly.

You need to pay more attention. Starrk said ordinary ceros would not be able to harm "strong guys" like Love and Rose (two vizard captains). Where do you get the idea that Ichigo is on their level LOL! Ichigo would get his ass kicked by Hiyori.

Not even Ichigonator would contend with Love is is "ogre" form (Shikai + mask).

I can see Ichigonator standing there charging up his cero and then all of sudden getting smashed in the face by a gigantic spiked cudgel.

Another thing you're all forgetting is that all it takes is breaking off one of Hollow ichigo's horns to make him revert to normal Ichigo.

Raizen
March 16, 2010, 08:10 PM
I personally think that ichinator is very powerful.
But i also believe that most of his hype is b/c he owned ulqui and people believed ulqui to very strong, which I don't see. If I had to put ichinator on a scale, he has mass destructive powerful and crazy speed. Most likely shunsui's level IMO. And i am sure that rose would be owned by ichinator btw, easily!!

Now in this fight, I chose starrks and tousen winning.
Starkks to me was very powerful. His attacks are dangerous and can reach multiple areas. It would be close to impossible to counter attack b/c u have to keep dodging. The only way is to tank the ceros and attack, otherwise u can't. Ichi and ulqui no way has the stamina to do so. One cero is enough to injure any of them. Don't even count the wolves yet lol

As for tousen, although i didn't like him, I was angry that he died sooo easily. he owned komamura, but then that is lomamura. I think tousen is very powerful.

In the end starks and tousen would win

Gcat88
March 17, 2010, 11:50 AM
I like stark, and i loved his release, but i dont know if he and tousen can match ichigo and Ulq. With Ichigo's bankai and Ulq's release they would easily defeat Tousen, but Stark's release can balance things out; nah it isnt that strong. Ichi and Ulq for the win.

Eddy01741
March 17, 2010, 12:49 PM
No, it's not manga fact that Stark>R2 Ulquiorra.

Till segunda etapa is fully explained, we don't know the power of it.

That said, I personally don't think that segunda etapa is that much of a power boost, and I do think that Tousen is an absolute beast with his resurreccion, thus I voted for duo #2.

Primecut
March 17, 2010, 01:11 PM
Tousen was terrible with his hollow and got killed by a vice captain so Ulquiorra R2 breaks him in two.

Ichigonator comes out and shows Stark that his number is meaningless here.

Primecut
March 17, 2010, 01:54 PM
dude don't you ever get tired of trolling?
because i LOVE how you just left out
a.how Tousen was distracted from being able to see
b.how Hisagi snuck from behind during this distraction.
and
c.how Tousen 1 shoted Koma'a Bankai wich is something NO ONE besides Aizen has ever done.
so you just right it off as if Tousen ressurrecion was so weak that a vice Captain in shikai beat him lol.
dude your posts never seases to amaze me at how oblivious you are to certain situations lol:amuse

a & b. That is a weakness included in this 2v2 situation. Tousen can't even handle a vice captain hitting him from behind, that was the second time Hisagi rocked him from behind so he is susceptible to sneak attacks.

c. I'm sure Ichigonator or Ulquiorra R2 could one shot Komamaru's bankai with black cero, Ichigonator cero, or lanza del relampago seeing as the explosions were many times bigger than Komamaru's bankai. Got any feats to support Komamaru's bankai being highly durable? Okay, didnt think so. Because to me because to me it just looks like a big sitting duck for a dome busting cero.

Tousen's only feat is blowing a hole in Komamaru's bankai and getting his butt kicked by Hisagi. Not enough to defeat Ichigonator or R2 Ulquiorra in the slightest. Those dome busting ceros would simply light this battlefield up.

Raizen
March 17, 2010, 09:16 PM
What exactly is impressive with ulquiorra? Let's lay this out.

First, lets ASSUME aizen does not know about the 2nd release. So that mean even after the 1st release, he is weaker than halibel. Yet he made ichigo still look like a joke. What does that mean? Ichigo is pathetic compared to the captains since hitsugaya didn't get a single scratch on him.

Now, Ulqui was manhandling ichigo with his 1st stage, when he went 2nd stage, what changed? Nothing. He was still winning. I don't see a huge power jump like some here are saying. He couldn't even control his own attack. He got owned, that is all there is to it. So what exactly makes ulqui so strong? For defeating someone as pathetic as ichigo?

He has done nothing that makes him stronger or even close to starks.

Eddy01741
March 17, 2010, 10:44 PM
Let me lay it out this way, let's put Ichigo with mask and bankai (not ichigonator) at a level of 100, just an arbitrary overall power level.

Let's say Ulq in R1 is at a power level of 200, enough to handily own Ichigo.

Now, Ulq goes R2 and is at a power level of 210, he still handily owns Ichigo, right?

In another scenario, Ulq goes R2 and is at a power level of 500, he still handily owns Ichigo, right?


Now, all we know is that Ulq R2 is between bankai+mask Ichigo and Ichigonator. We can kind of quantify bankai+mask Ichigo's power (slightly stronger than Grimmjow). Ichigonator we cannot quantify, but we know that he also handily defeated ulq R2.

I'm not saying Ulquiorra in segunda etapa is super strong, I'm just saying he could be.


Personally, I don't think that Ulquiorra R2 is all that strong, I'm just trying to be open to all the possibilities.

exacta
March 20, 2010, 12:41 AM
a & b. That is a weakness included in this 2v2 situation. Tousen can't even handle a vice captain hitting him from behind, that was the second time Hisagi rocked him from behind so he is susceptible to sneak attacks.

c. I'm sure Ichigonator or Ulquiorra R2 could one shot Komamaru's bankai with black cero, Ichigonator cero, or lanza del relampago seeing as the explosions were many times bigger than Komamaru's bankai. Got any feats to support Komamaru's bankai being highly durable? Okay, didnt think so. Because to me because to me it just looks like a big sitting duck for a dome busting cero.

Tousen's only feat is blowing a hole in Komamaru's bankai and getting his butt kicked by Hisagi. Not enough to defeat Ichigonator or R2 Ulquiorra in the slightest. Those dome busting ceros would simply light this battlefield up.

Tousens resurrecion is undeniably strong. It's obvious. To say its not enough to at least defeat R2 Ulquiorra is definitely trolling. Not that it's impossible, its mere speculation, but both entities are clearly very strong and didn't get to show off most of their potential. So to regard one as weak is ridiculous. Plus you forgot the part where Tousen stopped Komamura's sword with his hand. That's pretty insane strength.

And losing to Hisagi is not a matter of strength or power levels in the slightest.

Raizen
March 20, 2010, 02:23 PM
Let me lay it out this way, let's put Ichigo with mask and bankai (not ichigonator) at a level of 100, just an arbitrary overall power level.

Let's say Ulq in R1 is at a power level of 200, enough to handily own Ichigo.

Now, Ulq goes R2 and is at a power level of 210, he still handily owns Ichigo, right?

In another scenario, Ulq goes R2 and is at a power level of 500, he still handily owns Ichigo, right?


Now, all we know is that Ulq R2 is between bankai+mask Ichigo and Ichigonator. We can kind of quantify bankai+mask Ichigo's power (slightly stronger than Grimmjow). Ichigonator we cannot quantify, but we know that he also handily defeated ulq R2.

I'm not saying Ulquiorra in segunda etapa is super strong, I'm just saying he could be.


Personally, I don't think that Ulquiorra R2 is all that strong, I'm just trying to be open to all the possibilities.
I understand your point. You are one of the few posters i like posting with, whether we disagree or not. But i don't see what exactly makes Ulqui so strong? His regeration was lame and was more pathetic than WW's regeration. His lanza to me was not that impressive. Furthermore, he couldn't even control it.

Also, what makes me that that Aizen did know about form 2 was b/c in the latest chapter with the flashback, i think it showed ulqui in form 2 not form 1.

Eddy01741
March 20, 2010, 02:49 PM
I agree in general, based on feats (which I hate basing arguments on) Ulquiorra isn't strong, but that's all relative to Ichigonator, whose power we also don't know.

His regneration of all non vital organs is better than anybody we've seen save for WW, so better that than nothing.

As for Lanza, I do agree, it is kinda pathetic that he missed a stationary target, but we know that if it does explode, it has a massive area of effect (that said, massive area doesn't equal massive power). We also know that Ichigonator (an entity with unknown power) would be able to stop it regardless with just his sheer reiatsu/hierro (if he has hierro).

So we know that Ulq's lanza is definitely not all that accurate. But it could (keyword: could) still be very powerful, it just depends on how powerful Ichigonator is to gauge how hard it is to defeat the lanza head-on.

I reckon, if worst comes to worst, ulq can still wield the lanza in his hand as a sword/exploding spear, as he did cut off Ichigonator's cero-producing horn with lanza, and he did try to spear Ichigonator directly with it, albeit unsuccessfully. The only hint to Lanza's real power we've had so far is that Ulquiorra doesn't want to use it at close range, suggesting that it would put himself at considerable risk doing so. This does suggest that Ulquiorra in R2 would take severe damage from the explosion that would ensue from the blast, then again, we don't know how powerful Ulquiorra is in R2, so we don't know how powerful lanza would be in being able to injure Ulq in R2.

Basically, there's just too many unknowns to make an accurate objective analysis of Ulquiorra in R2.

That said, I personally am not all that impressed by Ulquiorra R2.

Raizen
March 20, 2010, 02:56 PM
I agree in general, based on feats (which I hate basing arguments on) Ulquiorra isn't strong, but that's all relative to Ichigonator, whose power we also don't know.

His regneration of all non vital organs is better than anybody we've seen save for WW, so better that than nothing.

As for Lanza, I do agree, it is kinda pathetic that he missed a stationary target, but we know that if it does explode, it has a massive area of effect (that said, massive area doesn't equal massive power). We also know that Ichigonator (an entity with unknown power) would be able to stop it regardless with just his sheer reiatsu/hierro (if he has hierro).

So we know that Ulq's lanza is definitely not all that accurate. But it could (keyword: could) still be very powerful, it just depends on how powerful Ichigonator is to gauge how hard it is to defeat the lanza head-on.

I reckon, if worst comes to worst, ulq can still wield the lanza in his hand as a sword/exploding spear, as he did cut off Ichigonator's cero-producing horn with lanza, and he did try to spear Ichigonator directly with it, albeit unsuccessfully. The only hint to Lanza's real power we've had so far is that Ulquiorra doesn't want to use it at close range, suggesting that it would put himself at considerable risk doing so. This does suggest that Ulquiorra in R2 would take severe damage from the explosion that would ensue from the blast, then again, we don't know how powerful Ulquiorra is in R2, so we don't know how powerful lanza would be in being able to injure Ulq in R2.

Basically, there's just too many unknowns to make an accurate objective analysis of Ulquiorra in R2.

That said, I personally am not all that impressed by Ulquiorra R2.
Just wanted to add something, HM is full of sand. To me, the reason the blast looked so big was b/c so much was blown up, making it look bigger than it is.

Also, wasn't orihime and ishida close to the explosion? Shouldn't they have somehow been affected? Like blown away by the force if it was that strong.

Another thing, that lancce is suppose to explode right? Why didn't it explode when ichinator pushed back against it? IDK.

But it seems like we come to the same conclusion. i don't think that ulqui is that great. Even he claimed so himself that there are 3 stronger than he is. And that is after saying if ichi somehow beat him

hakuthehedgehog
March 20, 2010, 03:11 PM
This fight isn't about Ulquiorra, it's about Ichigonator.
I think this fight whould go like this:
Ichigo takes on tousen while Ulquiorra goes against Stark.
Ichigo is owned instantly and goes Ichigonator while Ulquiorra talks to Stark and tries to stall the fight.
Ichigonator owns Tousen easily while Stark and Ulquiorra begin to fight seriously.
Stark is distracted by Ichigonator.
Ulquiorra plays possum while Stark tries to defeat the monster that is Ichigonator.
Now, if Ulquiorra manages to destroy's Ichigo's mask after Stark is beaten/heavily injured, Bankai Ichigo and Ulquiorra beat him.
If Ulquiorra can't, then he dies, like Stark.

Eddy01741
March 20, 2010, 03:33 PM
Just wanted to add something, HM is full of sand. To me, the reason the blast looked so big was b/c so much was blown up, making it look bigger than it is.

Also, wasn't orihime and ishida close to the explosion? Shouldn't they have somehow been affected? Like blown away by the force if it was that strong.

Another thing, that lancce is suppose to explode right? Why didn't it explode when ichinator pushed back against it? IDK.

But it seems like we come to the same conclusion. i don't think that ulqui is that great. Even he claimed so himself that there are 3 stronger than he is. And that is after saying if ichi somehow beat him

True with the sand, but sand or no sand, the area of effect was still huge. Again though, area of effect doesn't equal power...

As for Ishida and Orihime, My impression is that they were very close to where Ulquiorra was (Ishida tried to attack Ulq after Ulq ceroed Ichigo in the chest to no avail), thus I think they were far away from the explosion too.

As for why no explosion against Ichigo? I'd assume he pulled an Kenpachi/Aizen there and simply overwhelmed the very ability of Lanza with his massive reiatsu/hierro, but then again, I'm just speculating.

3 above including or not including segunda etapa as well as Yammi. I mean, at this point the issue has been argued to death and I have no idea what to believe, but Kubo wasn't kind enough to clarify by saying something like "in this segunda etapa resurreccion, I am still weaker than all the espada above me", or on the contrary, to say "in this segunda etapa resurreccion, I am actually stronger than all the espada above me", he simply says something along the lines of "this is segunda etapa resurreccion, no other arrancar has reached this stage, and Aizen does not know about it".

As for the issue of whether Aizen knew about it... You make a good point about Aizen's flashback referral to Ichigo's fight with Ulquiorra, and indeed R2 is pictured, so perhaps he did know. Maybe somehow he's kept an eye on the HM battles as well, as he did say that Ichigo somehow became stronger. But then again, that's all just speculation, pretty baseless. Then comes the issue of if he knew of R2 (without Ulq knowing that he knew of it), did he bother to change the rankings for R2? I'm not saying he did or did not, just wondering.

osking
March 23, 2010, 12:40 PM
I'm inclined to believe Aizen did know about R2 Ulquiorra, since he was pictured in his R2 form during Aizen's flashbacks. Not only that but Ulquiorra also states in his R2 form that he traded power for regeneration, so what I think is Ulquiorra's 1st Resurrecion is just a midway point to R2, basically a mix between his true form [R2] and his sealed form. In other words, his R2 form gives him the same boost as a normal Resurrecion does and that his R1 just gives him a halfway boost or somethin. He also states that there are 3 above him, referring to Starrk, Baraggan and Hallibel. And not only that but Hallibel's attacks seemd to be on par with R2 Ulquiorra's even though he was in HM where arrancars gain boost in strength. But yeah thats my IMO.

El Samurai Guapo
March 23, 2010, 08:50 PM
I'm inclined to believe Aizen did know about R2 Ulquiorra, since he was pictured in his R2 form during Aizen's flashbacks. Not only that but Ulquiorra also states in his R2 form that he traded power for regeneration, so what I think is Ulquiorra's 1st Resurrecion is just a midway point to R2, basically a mix between his true form [R2] and his sealed form. In other words, his R2 form gives him the same boost as a normal Resurrecion does and that his R1 just gives him a halfway boost or somethin. He also states that there are 3 above him, referring to Starrk, Baraggan and Hallibel. And not only that but Hallibel's attacks seemd to be on par with R2 Ulquiorra's even though he was in HM where arrancars gain boost in strength. But yeah thats my IMO.

That's basically what I said a long time ago, but some Ulquiorra fans quickly dismissed my points. I too think that R1 was a partial release, and R2 the full release. Ulquiorra was unique in that he divided his ressurecion into 2 forms. You could say that in the first stage he was at 50% of his overall power, and at the segunda etapa he was at 100%.

Raizen
March 23, 2010, 09:01 PM
Ulqui not only stated that in rank there are 3 higher than him, but he also stated to ichigo that if somehow ichigo was able to beat him, there are still 3 stronger than him.

Now, no way ulqui plan to lose w/o going fulll power. If indeed his form 2is stronger than the other espadas, then ichigo winning would mean all the other espadas would be fodder to ichigo. But that was not the case. Ulqui claims that even if ichi does win, there are 3 others stronger than he is that ichi needs to fight. We know he was talking about starks and barragan, but the 3rd one: is he talking about halibel or yammi?

El Samurai Guapo
March 23, 2010, 09:49 PM
Ulqui not only stated that in rank there are 3 higher than him, but he also stated to ichigo that if somehow ichigo was able to beat him, there are still 3 stronger than him.

Now, no way ulqui plan to lose w/o going fulll power. If indeed his form 2is stronger than the other espadas, then ichigo winning would mean all the other espadas would be fodder to ichigo. But that was not the case. Ulqui claims that even if ichi does win, there are 3 others stronger than he is that ichi needs to fight. We know he was talking about starks and barragan, but the 3rd one: is he talking about halibel or yammi?

I would say he was talking about Harribel. I doubt he knew about Yammi's rank changing after he releases. Otherwise, he may have not treated Yammi as a subordinate. What surprises me is that Yammi allowed Ulquiorra to boss him around. You would think that with his temper, he would have released and squashed him a long time ago.

Raizen
March 23, 2010, 09:53 PM
I would say he was talking about Harribel. I doubt he knew about Yammi's rank changing after he releases. Otherwise, he may have not treated Yammi as a subordinate. What surprises me is that Yammi allowed Ulquiorra to boss him around. You would think that with his temper, he would have released and squashed him a long time ago.
Maybe he wasn't strong enough at the moment. Why else would yammi be in seclusion. I bet he was charging himself up

Personally i don't see halibel as weak. Hitsu won b/c his zanpaktou beat her own power and b/c he was more cunning

vizardichigo
March 23, 2010, 10:02 PM
You need to pay more attention. Starrk said ordinary ceros would not be able to harm "strong guys" like Love and Rose (two vizard captains). Where do you get the idea that Ichigo is on their level LOL! Ichigo would get his ass kicked by Hiyori.

Not even Ichigonator would contend with Love is is "ogre" form (Shikai + mask).

I can see Ichigonator standing there charging up his cero and then all of sudden getting smashed in the face by a gigantic spiked cudgel.

Another thing you're all forgetting is that all it takes is breaking off one of Hollow ichigo's horns to make him revert to normal Ichigo.

I have to disagree with you...Ulq would beat Love in shikai pretty easily IMO....IMO Ulq was supposed to be the 3rd espada after Barragan and Starrk but he would beat Love in shikai and mask.Love wasnt that fast and Lanza Del Relampago would be strong enough to break Tengumaru IMO...May in bankai he would beat him, but we cant say since we haven't seen it yet....However Starrk and Tousen would win this battle IMO...Tousen's bankai would be the deciding factor...

El Samurai Guapo
March 23, 2010, 10:14 PM
I have to disagree with you...Ulq would beat Love in shikai pretty easily IMO....IMO Ulq was supposed to be the 3rd espada after Barragan and Starrk but he would beat Love in shikai and mask.Love wasnt that fast and Lanza Del Relampago would be strong enough to break Tengumaru IMO...May in bankai he would beat him, but we cant say since we haven't seen it yet....However Starrk and Tousen would win this battle IMO...Tousen's bankai would be the deciding factor...

Uhh, are we fabricating things here? Where's your proof that Ulquiorra was supposed to be the 3rd espada? Whether Love is fast or not is irrelevant since Ulquiorra can't even hit a stationary target with lanza del relampago. Besides that, Love doesn't need to be too fast because he obviously specializes in brute strength, similar to Kenpachi.

I don't think any captain (or former captain) would lose to the 4th espada. Especially not one that has the added strength of hollowfication.

kkck
March 23, 2010, 10:31 PM
I would think the captain vizards with mask would have no problem keeping up with ulquiorra or any other arrancar. Even if not speed beasts, mask is bound to make up for the difference.

Raizen
March 23, 2010, 10:33 PM
I would think the captain vizards with mask would have no problem keeping up with ulquiorra or any other arrancar. Even if not speed beasts, mask is bound to make up for the difference.
They couldn't keep up with starkks :eyeroll

El Samurai Guapo
March 23, 2010, 10:51 PM
They couldn't keep up with starkks :eyeroll

On the contrary, Love easily kept up with Starrk, forcing him to use his ace-in-the-hole (the kamikaze wolves) against him and Rose.

http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/372/07/
http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/372/08/

Lunatic Scream
March 23, 2010, 11:01 PM
Just so we're clear on speed here...

Ichigo and Kenpachi couldn't even see an unreleased Starrk but for a moment when he snatched Orihime. Keep in mind this is Ichigo moments before he fights Ulquiorra, and he clearly states that he can follow an unreleased Ulquiorra's movements perfectly well in their second encounter.

Starrk. Is. Freaking. Fast.

I strongly believe Starrk got the raw end of the plot stick, but if you look at all of his feats before he was defeated by Shunsui... it's really no contest between him and Ulquiorra. Especially now that we know Aizen has been watching Ichigo for the last 3000 years, Ulquiorra's claim that Aizen didn't know about Segunda is basically completely unfounded. Aizen knows everything. Ulqui himself had a bit of a superiority complex, so maybe it was his way of settling with being number 4. Starrk himself wasn't harmed by a single attack until Katen Kyoutsou turned on the hacks, he was one of the most observant characters in the series and fought 4 different captain level opponents. Sure he didn't take any arms (because that's such a grevious injury in a world where getting cut in half means you're alive for another six hours), but he overpowered every opponent he faced after releasing until his second fight with Shunsui.

As for Tousen and Ichigo? Tousen's hollowfication was better than Ichigo's. Tousen could give Masked Ichigo a run for his money without his hollowfication. The gap in power is ridiculous until you bring in Ichigonator, who's ONLY real chance at beating Tousen's ressureccion is the fact that the Ichigonator was a hollow with a freakin zanpakuto. It was a hollow with shinigami powers. Tousen completely forewent his shinigami abilities when he played cricket... though he certainly had more mental ability (or could at least form words). It's a close match, really.

Either way, even if Tousen and Ichigo match, the fact that Starrk is probably a good deal ahead of Ulquiorra makes it a null point.

However, if the upcoming chapters have Ichigonator going toe to toe with Aizen... then hell, Ichigonator could take all of the Espada, and all of the Gotei 13 simultaneously while piggybacking Wonderweiss to the zoo.
[hr]

On the contrary, Love easily kept up with Starrk, forcing him to use his ace-in-the-hole (the kamikaze wolves) against him and Rose.

http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/372/07/
http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/372/08/

That's pretty much the worst example to use, because the page directly after the ones you posted, Love admits that Starrk is slower than he was before. Starrk himself admits he's demoralized later in the chapter, while comically brushing off Love's Vaizard powered shikai.

Delbi
March 23, 2010, 11:14 PM
On the contrary, Love easily kept up with Starrk, forcing him to use his ace-in-the-hole (the kamikaze wolves) against him and Rose.

http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/372/07/
http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/372/08/

Stark would have shit on any of the Captain's present 1 on 1 minus Yama unless they decided to go Bankai and that was enough to kill him.

In case people forgot, he was fighting 4 Captains, two of which had masks on. It wasn't until Shunsui dicked him that he showed any signs of slowing down or losing.

El Samurai Guapo
March 23, 2010, 11:31 PM
That's pretty much the worst example to use, because the page directly after the ones you posted, Love admits that Starrk is slower than he was before. Starrk himself admits he's demoralized later in the chapter, while comically brushing off Love's Vaizard powered shikai.

It's funny, I was about to "thank" your post since I really agreed with everything you said...up until the point where you responded to me.

Believe me, I've read the encounter between Starrk and the vizards enough times to know what follows the two pages I posted a link to. I was simply trying to illustrate that Love was able to keep up with Starrk. If you or Raizen would like to share a panel where Love or Rose were not able to keep up with Starrk then be my guests.

Raizen
March 24, 2010, 12:54 PM
On the contrary, Love easily kept up with Starrk, forcing him to use his ace-in-the-hole (the kamikaze wolves) against him and Rose.

http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/372/07/
http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/372/08/
Starks moved so fast taht Love didn't even noticed where he went
http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/372/16-17/

Love to me is a big buffoon
[hr]

Stark would have shit on any of the Captain's present 1 on 1 minus Yama unless they decided to go Bankai and that was enough to kill him.

In case people forgot, he was fighting 4 Captains, two of which had masks on. It wasn't until Shunsui dicked him that he showed any signs of slowing down or losing.
I don't agree with that. Starkks is powerful. He is more than enough to beat teh vizard captains IMO other than maybe shinji.

But shunsui already shown he is stronger than starkks, uki could do the same, so could unohana IMO. Starks is strong, true. But i say Ken or byakuya could give him a good fight too. While teh senior captains are guaranteed to be capable of beating him

kkck
March 24, 2010, 01:08 PM
Starks moved so fast taht Love didn't even noticed where he went
http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/372/16-17/

Love to me is a big buffoon
<hr noshade size="1">

I don't agree with that. Starkks is powerful. He is more than enough to beat teh vizard captains IMO other than maybe shinji.

I would think starrk managed to get up there without the vizards noticing since there actually was a considerable amount of dust in the air. Just one good sonido through the dust.

As for whether starrk would have beaten the vizards, IDK. Neither Love or Rose use bankai, they stuck to shikai and mask. Also worth noting, it was love alone who forced starrk all out -since cero wouldn't have worked even if they could hit apparently- and all he used was shikai and mask. Love didn't even took part in the fight until starrk for some reason targeted him too -I guess he was being practical-. There is no reason for love's and rose's bankai to not be just about as brutal as any other captain bankai we have seen. I would think bankai and mask would be a more than serious concern for starrk.

Raizen
March 24, 2010, 01:16 PM
I would think starrk managed to get up there without the vizards noticing since there actually was a considerable amount of dust in the air. Just one good sonido through the dust.

As for whether starrk would have beaten the vizards, IDK. Neither Love or Rose use bankai, they stuck to shikai and mask. Also worth noting, it was love alone who forced starrk all out -since cero wouldn't have worked even if they could hit apparently- and all he used was shikai and mask. Love didn't even took part in the fight until starrk for some reason targeted him too -I guess he was being practical-. There is no reason for love's and rose's bankai to not be just about as brutal as any other captain bankai we have seen. I would think bankai and mask would be a more than serious concern for starrk.
Thing is, he couldn't even see if his attack landed. Starks not only dodged the attack easily, he moved fast enough to get above them and he prepare his attack. He is that fast. Rose and Love are not the speed type IMO.

Also, u seem to hype bankai up too much. Bankai makes u stronger, but only a few of them increases ALL areas of combat. Bankai like ichi only increase his speed, soifon's increases power, etc. Byakuya's is teh only one that has shown to increase all areas of combat.

Even if love went bankai, all he can do is increase his attack power at best. But it won't matter it he can't hit starrks. Not to mention, his cero failed b/c the club blocked it. What if he was to speed behind and use it? Different story. So don't be so sure that bankai will change things

kkck
March 24, 2010, 01:31 PM
Thing is, he couldn't even see if his attack landed. Starks not only dodged the attack easily, he moved fast enough to get above them and he prepare his attack. He is that fast. Rose and Love are not the speed type IMO.

Also, u seem to hype bankai up too much. Bankai makes u stronger, but only a few of them increases ALL areas of combat. Bankai like ichi only increase his speed, soifon's increases power, etc. Byakuya's is teh only one that has shown to increase all areas of combat.

Even if love went bankai, all he can do is increase his attack power at best. But it won't matter it he can't hit starrks. Not to mention, his cero failed b/c the club blocked it. What if he was to speed behind and use it? Different story. So don't be so sure that bankai will change things

What attack didn't land, not sure what you are talking about. Love definitely hit starrk, otherwise this (http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/372/15/) would not have happened unless it was only the shockwave from love's attack that trashed a few blocks worth of city -which I don't think happened-.

I am not really counting on bankai making either love or rose stronger in all areas -they kinda have mask for that-. I am well aware that bankai might actually just increase one area of combat but that increase is always absurd at least which would certainly be worth considering. Just look at some of the bankai we have seen so far. Hitsugaya's is nothing special but once he does go all out he can control the heavens and throw it at you -this is completely brutal IMHO, I don't even see how starrk would have survived what hitsu did to harribel-. Komamura's is a 100m tall giant who keeps up with komamura's every move. It is pure raw power combined with insane speed considering there is no lag between the two. Soifon gets one of the more powerful and concentrated nukes we have seen in bleach so far -I would argue it was second only to ulquiorra's lanza-. Byakuya gets so many petals from bankai he could probably level a town easily on his own. Just look at this (http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/262/15/) and this (http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/301/22/). Byakuya grounded the top of a huge tower merely as a byproduct of one of his attacks. He didn't even use the more powerful moves his bankai has. Also, even though most bankai generally seem to be bigger versions of shikai, they do generally have not only more power but also more range. Only bankai we have seen that does not provide any form of significant increase in range is ikkaku's and ichigo's (which already had long range attack), all the others have invariably shown a fairly considerable increase in range along with an increase in area of effect. This is speculation on my part but I would be severely surprised if love and rose don't get a significant increase in range from bankai considering both their shikai's already cover fairly large areas and have quite some attack power.

Raizen
March 24, 2010, 01:36 PM
What attack didn't land, not sure what you are talking about. Love definitely hit starrk, otherwise this (http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/372/15/) would not have happened unless it was only the shockwave from love's attack that trashed a few blocks worth of city -which I don't think happened-.

I am not really counting on bankai making either love or rose stronger in all areas -they kinda have mask for that-. I am well aware that bankai might actually just increase one area of combat but that increase is always absurd at least which would certainly be worth considering. Just look at some of the bankai we have seen so far. Hitsugaya's is nothing special but once he does go all out he can control the heavens and throw it at you -this is completely brutal IMHO, I don't even see how starrk would have survived what hitsu did to harribel-. Komamura's is a 100m tall giant who keeps up with komamura's every move. It is pure raw power combined with insane speed considering there is no lag between the two. Soifon gets one of the more powerful and concentrated nukes we have seen in bleach so far -I would argue it was second only to ulquiorra's lanza-. Byakuya gets so many petals from bankai he could probably level a town easily on his own. Just look at this (http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/262/15/) and this (http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/301/22/). Byakuya grounded the top of a huge tower merely as a byproduct of one of his attacks. He didn't even use the more powerful moves his bankai has. Also, even though most bankai generally seem to be bigger versions of shikai, they do generally have not only more power but also more range. Only bankai we have seen that does not provide any form of significant increase in range is ikkaku's and ichigo's (which already had long range attack), all the others have invariably shown a fairly considerable increase in range along with an increase in area of effect. This is speculation on my part but I would be severely surprised if love and rose don't get a significant increase in range from bankai considering both their shikai's already cover fairly large areas and have quite some attack power.
If that attack did land, it only adds more to starrks strength. He took the attack and reappeared as if nothing happened. Not to mention he moved that quick after getting hit and surprised both love and rose by not only appearing above them but prepared his move

Hitsu- different case since his zanpaktou is the strongest ice based zanpaktou.
Komamura- his bankai is pathetic IMO. If his bankai is injured he gets injured. All it does is give him more power. Starrks could speed blitza round it. If anything, I see Love's bankai as this. SOmething that boost his attack power more, but all other areas do not change
Soifon- her bankai limits her speed and leaves her defenseless while giving her a huge attack boost. Not impressive unless the opponent is trapped
Byakuya- I already stated he is one of the few that has a bankai that increases everything

kkck
March 24, 2010, 01:45 PM
I would disagree on how you see those bankai lol. Komamura's bankai has quite some speed IMHO since it is something that huge which moves at the same rate as komamura who is tiny in comparison. It would not have hit masked tousen otherwise (Who I would think was in a worst case scenario as fast as starrk considering he did have decent speed along with the most powerful hollowification to date). While I agree in that soifons bankai does limit her, I was talking more about how brutal its effect was. The missile was shown to be reasonably fast and the resulting explosion was shown to be extremely powerful. While no good to enhance actual melee combat, it still does have quite a lot of power. On another note, I don't think byakuya's bankai increases everything. At first it increases merely area of effect through numbers and then it increases solely attack power (which is fairly standard).

Raizen
March 24, 2010, 01:59 PM
I would disagree on how you see those bankai lol. Komamura's bankai has quite some speed IMHO since it is something that huge which moves at the same rate as komamura who is tiny in comparison. It would not have hit masked tousen otherwise (Who I would think was in a worst case scenario as fast as starrk considering he did have decent speed along with the most powerful hollowification to date). While I agree in that soifons bankai does limit her, I was talking more about how brutal its effect was. The missile was shown to be reasonably fast and the resulting explosion was shown to be extremely powerful. While no good to enhance actual melee combat, it still does have quite a lot of power. On another note, I don't think byakuya's bankai increases everything. At first it increases merely area of effect through numbers and then it increases solely attack power (which is fairly standard).
1- I don't think tousen was as fast as someone like starrks. He was caught by hisagi TWICE!! So just b/c koma was able to get him does not mean it could get starrks
2- Yes soifon's bankai is extremely powerful. But she had to trade a lot to get it: her quick speed, her defenses, and time. That is a lot. So we can't really look at just the effect of the bankai but how it affects the user as a whole
3- Byakuya's bankai increase his attack and defense as well enhances teh speed of his attack

So simply put, just using bankai does not imply that he can beat starrks considering his shikai did nothing to starrks despite hitting him a few times

kkck
March 24, 2010, 02:09 PM
1- I don't think tousen was as fast as someone like starrks. He was caught by hisagi TWICE!! So just b/c koma was able to get him does not mean it could get starrks
2- Yes soifon's bankai is extremely powerful. But she had to trade a lot to get it: her quick speed, her defenses, and time. That is a lot. So we can't really look at just the effect of the bankai but how it affects the user as a whole
3- Byakuya's bankai increase his attack and defense as well enhances teh speed of his attack

So simply put, just using bankai does not imply that he can beat starrks considering his shikai did nothing to starrks despite hitting him a few times

Hisagi simply caught an insane tousen offguard. I don't think that could be held against him in an scenario where he is his usual calm self -or keeps his eyes closes lol-. Even the vizards experience a considerable increase in speed from mask. Tousen, who has hollowification at least as powerful as the espada's shinigamification, should be faster than any espada IMHO.

I don't think you are being fair towards soifon's bankai. I don't think it should be judge in terms of the overall speed and physical combat capacities given that it has nothing to do with that. Technically, it is a bankai meant to pawn at long range enemies who can't be deal with in short range (otherwise just stick to shikai right?). I might as well say hitsugaya's bankai blows because it does not increase his speed. Speed simply would not be relevant to hitsugaya's bankai.

Byakuya can use his hands to increase the attack speed of the initial form of his bankai but outside of that his actual speed never increases. Byakuya's bankai is very generic in that it mostly increases his area of effect and attack power.

Lunatic Scream
March 24, 2010, 02:10 PM
It's funny, I was about to "thank" your post since I really agreed with everything you said...up until the point where you responded to me.

Believe me, I've read the encounter between Starrk and the vizards enough times to know what follows the two pages I posted a link to. I was simply trying to illustrate that Love was able to keep up with Starrk. If you or Raizen would like to share a panel where Love or Rose were not able to keep up with Starrk then be my guests.

Wasn't a sleight towards you, chief. However, when I read the pages following the one's you linked, I get the impression that Starrk wasn't moving anywhere near as fast as he was when he first fought Shunsui and Ukitake... so whether Love and Rose were keeping up with him at that time or not, if it's when he's not fighting at his full capability, it's not really something you can apply to another fight.

http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/372/15/
There's that panel and exchange, but you can't really tell if Starrk dodges Love's attack and then moves quickly enough that Love and Rose don't notice him until he's fully brought out his wolves, or if he gets hit and it simply has no effect, or even if it had nothing to do with Starrk's speed and Love just lost him in the giant dust cloud. If I had to wager, I'd say Starrk at the very least avoided that attack, though, after which Love lost him, possibly due to his speed, but that's just my opinion.

Eddy01741
March 24, 2010, 04:16 PM
Meh, there are far more Ulq and Ichigo fans than Stark and Tousen fans (mostly Tousen here though, Stark has his own share of fanboys/girls, Tousen has almost no following), and also, far more ulq and ichigo fans than people that realize how powerful Tousen's resurreccion was.

That's why I dislike polls a lot.

hakuthehedgehog
March 31, 2010, 11:44 AM
Meh, there are far more Ulq and Ichigo fans than Stark and Tousen fans (mostly Tousen here though, Stark has his own share of fanboys/girls, Tousen has almost no following), and also, far more ulq and ichigo fans than people that realize how powerful Tousen's resurreccion was.

That's why I dislike polls a lot.

I'm an Ulquiorra fan, and I know Ulquiorra whould lose against Tousen's ressurection.

However, Tousen seemed to be quite slow and prone to quick attacks, plus while his attacks are powerfull, IMO, they aren't much stronger than Lanza, which Ichigonator supresed with his reiatsu.
IMO, the most probable outsome is Ichigonator owning the shit out of every fighter in this fight.

Raizen
April 06, 2010, 12:55 PM
Ichinator's strength is relative depending on ulqui's strength. I personally don't think ulqui is trouble against someone like byakuya, ken or the senior captains. So him being owned does not seem impressive to me.

So it really depends on how strong people see ulqui is.

I still think starrks and tousen will win

Trotter
April 08, 2010, 08:09 AM
I like all of the characters in this so let me go this way.

I think Starrk and Tousen win. Starrk IS stronger then Ulquiorra, else he wouldn't be the First. If he just sits back and blast the shit out of Ulquiorra and Ichigo he wins.

As for Tousen, he lost to Kenpachi because that's KENPACHI! Anyone else would shit themselves and die in the first hit but with Kenpachi, who feels no fear, it wasn't a big deal. Trap Ichigo in there, or just Ress, and the fights over.

Eddy01741
April 08, 2010, 10:56 AM
I like all of the characters in this so let me go this way.

I think Starrk and Tousen win. Starrk IS stronger then Ulquiorra, else he wouldn't be the First. If he just sits back and blast the shit out of Ulquiorra and Ichigo he wins.

As for Tousen, he lost to Kenpachi because that's KENPACHI! Anyone else would shit themselves and die in the first hit but with Kenpachi, who feels no fear, it wasn't a big deal. Trap Ichigo in there, or just Ress, and the fights over.

Stark Ressureccion>Ulquiorra primera etapa resurreccion. That much is basically fact.

Where Ulquiorra segunda etapa resurreccion fits in there, we don't know. Thus it is possible that Ulquiorra is stronger than Stark when using segunda etapa.

As for Tousen's bankai, Kenpachi is not the only one that could defeat it. Anybody with a large area attack could at least attempt to keep Tousen at a distance, Yamamoto could pull a Kenpachi and let Tousen stab him, then counter (as he did with Aizen). Not to mention an attack breaking Tousen's bankai tent perhaps.


All that said, Tousen didn't even use his bankai in resurreccion, and that is clearly his strongest form, yet we don't know if he can still use his shinigami abilities in resurreccion. His resurreccion is however, rediculously powerful. It blocked Koma's bankai attack with ease, then one shotted Komamura right aftewards.

jaymizzo
April 08, 2010, 12:31 PM
Honesltly.
If its Only Base Ichigo and Base Ulquiorra Vs Base Starrk and Tousen. The Fight goes to Starrk and Tousen

If its Full powered Ichigo and segunda Ulquiorra VS Released Starrk and Hollowfied Tousen, The Fight goes to Ichi and Ulqu

Honestly, We Dont Know Even An Inch of What Ichigonator is actually capable of!!.. With what we've Seen, Ichigonator could probably obliterate all The Espada preety easily.

And about Tousens Bankai, We Do not know if he can go bankai + Mask. Or he can only go mask and bankai seperately. but in hollow form, he would get pwnt for real! in bankai, As People Said, I dont think his bankai would affect Something that Only Relies on Instinct.. Ichigonator doesnt need smell, or watever.. he jus goes like a killing machine which he is

IMO the only problem would probably be starrk.. But This fight is based on people we dont know alot about!

With that said, i vote for ichi + Ulquiorra