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View Full Version : Theory Unknown Roger Pirate - Chapter 0



Mr.G
March 19, 2010, 08:16 AM
Preface #1: I am in no way claiming anything here as concrete fact. This is entirely my own speculation and research. I can easily be mistaken at any point in this post.

Preface #2: I realize there is a thread on the theorized Roger Pirates in the Blank Century forum, however I felt it unwise to ressurrect an old thread for pure intellectual discussion, as there is nothing relevant in the current arc. If anyone feels differently, please say so or if possible move it to the appropriate forum.


Well. First, an introduction. I am Mr.G, newly registered here, however I've followed both the One Piece and Bleach forums frequently for the last ~9 months. There have been many things I've wanted to comment on or discuss but have not, partly out of laziness and partly out of reluctance to join yet another forum. However I decided to finally construct some thoughts into a legitimate post and share it with you all. I accept any thoughts, thanks, or criticisms.

The identities of the remaining Roger Pirates have been the subject of wonder for years now. I have always entertained theories (no matter how ridiculous because I enjoy speculation) but have never really arrived at any solid ones. That may have changed.

Until recently, with Strong World Chapter 0 and the Saboady Archipelago, we only saw brief glimpses of Roger and his nakama. There were few hints, or important revelations such as Crocus being the ships doctor for the final voyage and the introduction of Rayleigh. They are still shrouded in mystery. The 5th page of Strong World Chapter 0 (http://www.onemanga.com/One_Piece/565.5/05/) presents the readers with two more unknown faces: a very large, unhappy fellow in the background and a slimmer, dark-haired gentlemen sporting sunglasses, a pony-tail, and a battle axe in the foreground. This second person caught my attention.

Specifics: This is the second time this man has appeared, the first being in Buggy's flashback (http://images1.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20091229104037/onepiece/images/d/d9/Roger_nunamed_member.jpg). The side-by-side comparison of each appearance demonstrates Oda's refined drawing skills. The earlier characters of One Piece were very limited in a sense, having ill-defined arms and legs giving them a 'rubbery' look, if you'll pardon the term. The second, older version brings a number of changes; He has a more massive physique, broader shoulders, thicker neck, less defined forehead, presumably sharper chin, longer hair, chest scar, and no waistband. The legs are not visible, and the axe remains in his left hand. The most striking feature to me is the hair. The two drooping bangs, hair pulled back into a large pony-tail, widow's peak, and two 'sideburn spikes' reaching above his eyes are easily discernable and would give away his identity to perceptive readers if he appeared in the current timeline. That is, unless it was heavily modified after the Roger Pirates disbanded. After some light searching, I've discovered two possible candidates. Two seemingly impossible candidates. Crocodile and Dragon. At first, I didn't see any connections. None at all. However, that was then.


For Crocodile:

The upper body is vaguely similar. Croc has a thick neck and proportionate shoulders.
Similar eyebrows/brow (http://images2.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20080705092455/onepiece/images/b/be/Piratekingcroc.png).
At first glance, the hair does not match well, but on closer inspection I found that was not the case. Removing the pony-tail leaves us with an angled neck and swept-back hair. They both share the two drooping bangs and 'sideburn spikes (http://images3.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20100307231751/onepiece/images/b/b5/Ch398.jpg)' above their eyes.
Proficient use of left arm, both hook and axe. Croc's DF attacks can be interpreted as sand blades, perhaps even the blade of an axe, but that's pushing it.
If Croc was part of the Roger Pirates, it would explain the animosity between Whitebeard and himself.
Croc's combat abilities are well-developed. Both his hand-to-hand strikes and DF powers are formidable. Expected of a Roger Pirate.


Against Crocodile:

Croc's chin is as sharp but not as elongated.
The noses, while both downturned and sharp, do not convince me well enough. Many characters share this nose.
Croc met Ivankov while still a rookie. It is doubtful Croc was a rookie after Roger's execution, if he was indeed a Roger Pirate.
If Croc was part of the Roger Pirates, why has it never been mentioned by any character to date?
Generally a dick. Not a quality known to be possessed by such a legendary crew.


Indeterminate:

Sadly this man's legs are not visible and so it is difficult to discern his height, and Croc towers over many characters.
Croc sometimes does and does not have a widow's peak on his forehead.
Both ages are unknown. Croc would have to be between the ages of 45 and 60 to fit the timeline. With Oda, age is difficult to determine.
The Roger Pirate is not seen without sunglasses. Croc's sunken eyes are easily recognized.
Emporio Ivankov's hormone abilities has the capacity to change physical features. While not as funny as the "Croc used to be a girl" theory, it is possible he was altered in some way.
In Chapter 0, Croc was purposefully not shown from the front. As to what this means, only time will tell.
Croc has a very unstable relationship with the Marines. He does not like dealing with them and won't let them have their way, but at the same time he used the title of Shichibukai to further his own goals. This could stem from his rookie years, his lust for power, or any other factor.



For Dragon:

Dragon's hairstyle (http://www.onemanga.com/One_Piece/539/11/) matches that of the Roger Pirate, minus the pony-tail and two drooping bangs.
Were he a Roger Pirate, he may be against the World Government for the reasons Rayleigh mentioned they had discovered.
His ability to perhaps manipulate the weather might secure his position as a navigator on a pirate ship. (To further expand on this, if we go by the Straw Hats example, the navigator holds the 3rd seat or second mate position. It would agree with Oda's motif for the top Roger Pirates: "Gold" Roger, Silvers Rayleigh, "Bronze" Dragon?)
The storm that sunk half of Shiki's fleet in chapter 0 could have been produced by Dragon, if he wields some weather-manipulating DF.


Against Dragon:

The noses, while both downturned and sharp, do not convince me well enough. Many characters share this nose.
The pirate's chin is much sharper than Dragons, though there hasn't been a very clear side profile to compare, as far as I know.
Dragon's age. While unknown, it is difficult to accept that Dragon was in his mid 20s only 25 years ago and still be the son of Garp, who is presumably in his 60s. (For example, if Garp is ~65, then Dragon is ~45. I doubt Garp would have fathered Dragon at ~20, but as always I cannot be 100% sure.)


Indeterminate:

Dragon has yet to be seen in anything other than his robe and cloak, making physique difficult to determine.
Very little is known of Dragon. In fact, he appears less than he is mentioned, compounding upon his mystery.
Dragon is not known to use axes, or any weapon at all.



Conclusion:
Given Oda's record of showing seemingly insignificant characters without first identifying them and bringing them back in a later arc, I would not be surprised if this unnamed pirate turns out to be a very influential person during the current timeline. Just as easily, he may be a fodder character and have no bearing upon the story at all. As I've stated, I love speculation and while re-reading the current arc, I had an idea which I attempted to flesh out here. I hope it's understandable and not terribly written, after all it is 6 in the morning here and I've not slept yet. If anything, I hope this sparks an idea of your own, and you enjoy the world of One Piece just a little more. :amuse

Fox666
March 19, 2010, 09:29 AM
I liked the Crocodile theory. But Dragon theory don't convince me (based on the character appearance).



Crocodile being a dick doesn't mean he can't be a former Jolly Roger pirate. We know something happened that changed him, and that he once had a dream about being the pirate king.

It was just later around chapter 450 that we knew about Shanks and Buggy. So it's not impossible. Although if it was true it would be strange that Buggy and Crocodile never mentioned it about them...



I edited the picture, added Crocodile eyes and scar. See if it convince you that this could be a younger Crocodile:

http://img403.imageshack.us/img403/5697/crocodiled.gif

Mr.G
March 19, 2010, 10:05 AM
Very true, his experience could have changed his personality. Similarly, Gecko Moria could have been different before Kaidou destroyed his crew.

Based on appearance, I feel that Crocodile presents the stronger case, but I can't get beyond the chin of the Jolly Roger pirate. It seems out of place if it turned out to be Croc, but aside from that I can easily see him standing there.

Really like to have a few more panels to make comparisons, unfortunately we must make do with what we have.

ScratchmenApoo
March 19, 2010, 10:57 AM
He already looks very old in that Strong World Chapter... But wasn't that over ~20 years ago ? He would be really old now... if not dead.
To me, he looks like Catalina Devon's twin brother or something... Very similar to her imo.
I like your theory, but to me Croc is too young, and he also had a different appearance (even though it was an over-shoulder view) at Roger's execution - He would've done a complete make-over in such a short time.
I'm voting him to be a completely new character yet to be introduced...

goldb
March 19, 2010, 11:28 AM
Not bad, you definetly took your time to make sure you stated both pros and cons, you even had intermediates :). As for my opinion, I'd always thought that guy would be a yonko or something like that. It don't think it's Croco-boy because that would make him very old and even if he had met Ivankov and the latter had worked on him, his powers can't make a person younger. Another point is that in Impel Down (http://www.onemanga.com/One_Piece/529/06-07/) whilst talking to both Jimbei and Ace, he mentioned Roger in the same breath as WB, which would mean that he regarded him as an enemy.

Samui
March 19, 2010, 11:58 AM
Dragon has already appeared in chaper 0, watching Roger's execution . They don't even look alike.
Actually, Crocodile appeared there as well.

frontaLobotomy
March 19, 2010, 01:07 PM
Crocodile made a point of mentioning how Level 6 in Impel Down had 'Silver Medalists' that lost against both Whitebeard and Roger, someone's nakama maybe would say things like that. Not to mention Buggy would have recognised him during the breakout. It's a nice theory, but Crocodile was a Rookie during the time of Roger's execution, and doesn't strike me as the sort to have ever been part of a crew that he wasn't captain of.
Dragon may have been a pirate, but my instincts about that character was that he had more exposure to the Marines, given his current status as a Revolutionary. Being a pirate beforehand would taint those ideals for changing the world, given that isn't what is associated with piracy.
Decent theories though, a good read.

Dice
March 19, 2010, 01:56 PM
Nice read. Really well written. There are indeed similarities between the pirate and Crocodile but if it would be true it would ruin my idea of Crocodile being the former second commander of WB :D. Anyway quite nice theory^^

PaPiPuPePo~
March 19, 2010, 01:58 PM
i like your theory :D
i think dragon was a part of rogers crew for a year, maybe garp didnt know it or something like that xD maybe in his journey he saw all the islands what the marine do or something like that, then he chose to join( build ) the rebellion
just my thoughts xD

Lord Rayleigh
March 19, 2010, 03:02 PM
Interesting theory, Mr G !

Crocodile and the axe man really look alike (except above all the chin, as you said) but there are two bothering things :
- Buggy and Crocodile met and nothing special happened between them (words, behavior etc ...)
- Crocodile is a Shichibukai : I doubt the WG would have given him such a status if he had been a PK's nakama.
The only explanation would be that nobody knows he was in the PK's crew. He changed and not even Buggy can regognize him, but it seems a bit stretched, doesn't it ?

You've forgotten a third unknown face in the Stronger World - Chapter 0 : the man behind Crocus in this picture (http://www.onemanga.com/One_Piece/565.5/08/). We can clearly see he is not a nakama drawn in the background like the ones behind Shanks and Rayleigh.

And about the one between Rayleigh and Shanks, hide his hair and his chin and it's truly amazing : it's exactly Franky's face with the same nose and the same eyes. Could he be his unknown father ?

Mr.G
March 19, 2010, 06:59 PM
@Samui
Yes, they both appeared at the execution. Dragon did indeed look very different, though I could attribute that to perspective, or the 3 year difference between appearances. But I won't.

@Rayleigh
I agree that it does seem a bit stretched that not one person recognizes him, especially Buggy. Then again, not many knew Buggy was a Jolly Roger pirate until the Marines somehow found out. I don't want it to seem like I'm holding out hope, I'm only pointing out (extreme) possibilities but I would not put anything past Oda.

Again, thanks to everyone who took the time to read my theory.

Uriel
March 20, 2010, 12:00 AM
You know, I don't know why but seeing all those pictures somewhat reminded me Kaidou.

Could be that this particular person may have become a Yonkou after his death? Could be that this person will be the one to help Luffy in the New World?
I'm saying this because so far we've encountered Roger's Crew in some parts of Luffy story that I consider somewhat vital:
1. Gol D Roger is introduced in the very beginning as the Pirate King
2. Shanks is the starting point for Luffy to become a Pirate.
3. Buggy appears as the first enemy of Luffy.
4. Crocus is shown when Luffy enter Grand Line.
5. Rayleigh is shown when Luffy enter Seabody, in the first half of the Grand Line.
6. X character must be in the new world then? Following the pattern, I mean.

Still, this is also speculation. As was said about Buggy and Crocodile, I doubt this particular guy is him. BUT considering that Ivankov knows a secret from him and He can alter body shape...everything is possible. I believe in miracles xD Although age does bother me in that theory.

Samui
March 20, 2010, 02:23 AM
Though that crewmate doesn't have to be someone we know. We didn't know about Rayleigh, he was just the guy from Buggy's flashback, but that we found out that he was actually Roger's first mate.

But I'm sure we all can agree that the guy is going to make an appearance sooner or later, there's a reason why Oda took him and included him in chapter 0. I thought, maybe he was the third stronger in Roger's crew?

Mr.G
March 20, 2010, 02:42 AM
@LordUriel

You make a good point. Members of Roger's crew have been important at vital times throughout the series. It doesn't necessarily follow that this person has to be in the NW, but it seems to be the most logical place. They just as easily could be in retirement in some obscure corner of a Blue.

I don't doubt this person will make an appearance down the line. He has a relatively prominent speaking role in Chapter 0 compared to the rest of the crew, though it's not much in the scope of the chapter. His few lines do compound upon what we know of Rogers character though: that he is reckless and his crew can't stop him.

Uriel
March 20, 2010, 10:08 AM
They could, but it would be boring to speculate, huh? Unless it encounters a Strawhat around there. Like Zoro. But oh well, that's another story.

And you know, I was thinking in the same lines...Why someone that loves to fight that much would retire? An axe isn't exactly the type of weapon of someone weak or reticent to fight. It's neither the weapon of someone peaceful. An axe is to injure severely and make the other suffer. It's the type of weapon that acquires strength by motion.
So that and the lines tell me that it's the kind of person that is always in motion, likes fights a lot and it's a natural born killer.
Taking the above as true, there is no way for such a pirate to leave that way of living. Therefore is still around. Being someone presumably THAT strong it's possible to be in the New World.

Truefan21
March 20, 2010, 12:35 PM
Kaidou does not strike me as someone who will help luffy. Why would he fight shanks if he were part of Roger's crew

Uriel
March 20, 2010, 01:10 PM
Kaidou does not strike me as someone who will help luffy. Why would he fight shanks if he were part of Roger's crew
To avoid the war that came after the current events. We don't know the motivation behind them, but I'm just saying. I'm not saying it's him, due the high noticeable differences between that two.

BUT I strongly believe that We will see him in the New World helping Luffy.

Gcat88
March 20, 2010, 09:00 PM
I doubt that all the Yonkou will help the SH. I can almost promise that Luffy will fight one of them. Itll be used as a stepping stone for him. I dont know which one he will fight, but he will fight one. What interests me is, what will the other crews be like?? There are tons of Roger Pirates we dont know about. Do you think well find out about all of them??

goldb
March 26, 2010, 10:03 AM
There's a Yonkou Thread here (http://mangahelpers.com/forum/showthread.php?t=41251), This thread is only for discussing that unknown Roger Pirate, if discussions come up that he might be a yonkou then fair enough, but all Kaidou and general talk, take it there.