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karthikmurs
March 20, 2010, 07:59 PM
Hello folks,

On the current chapter discussion thread, there was this thing that was about to run hot.. Let me run it through here..

I ask, Is Blackbeard really built up to be a villain?

I feel no. He is not a villain type. He is the ultimate rival for Luffy among pirates. He is like a sworn enemy. What makes their relation more deadly than what Roger n WB had is that both Luffy and BB share common goal to be the Pirate King..

If we see how Blackbeard has acted till now.

1. He killed a crewmate on WB ship.

First off, let me put a light note that this is not a rule for "every" pirate. It most certainly was an Iron clad rule on WB's ship. But AFAIK, its not a Golden rule among pirates or anything. Blackbeard openly said that he was on WB's ship solely for the purpose of finding the Devil Fruit. This shows he was cunning and that he was a schemer. But evil? Not here..

2. Captured Ace and handed him over to Marines .

Again, this cannot be deemed as an evil act. He was again covering his ass and he anyways wanted a guy with a bounty of over 100mil. Ace was not a bad bargain, yes?

One thing that comes into mind here is his intention to take Level 6 prisoners into his team.. That was a place where Croc, Ace and even Jimbei were held. Level 6 prisoners were strong. So he wanted them in.

3. Stole WB's powers.

He took it because he could.. And it was so cool of him to do that.. After that, all those sneaky fellow otakus who were speculating that BB can have three different DF powers got an adrenaline shot..

_____

Apart from all these, look at his attitude when he speaks to Nami (nee chan). When he said "those two won the battle" even after all they did was eat Bellamy's abuses, rep was added to BB. And then his famous speech on "Pirates' dream". Even Luffy was so struck to that man that he was listening to him without even blinking his eye. He still referred to Ace as captain. He openly said he aspired to become like WB. Many things which people wouldn't normally do.. Imagine Arlong or Don Kreig or Kuro or any low life pirates having this kind of power.. I can bet they wouldn't be even half humble as BB was..

Having said all these, I do understand these. His intention of becoming Pirate king is exactly opposite to that of Luffy. Where Luffy expresses freedom, BB expresses control. This basic thing indicates they both are North pole / South pole.
[hr]

of course he is a villain..
-responsible for the war
-responsible for ace's death
-killed one of his own mates!
.......he is a sneaky little bastard
he is responsible for all the shit Luffy is in right now...if that doesn't make him a villain of Luffy what exactly would make anybody a villain..

He is NOT responsible for war. Marines would have silently executed Ace.. But instead, they cared less and declared war against WB.. There are consequences of angering the worlds most strongest man.. All that happened later on is history..

The person responsible for Ace's death is Akainu. What did you expect BB to do when Ace kept tailing him? Surrender and offer his head? If you recollect, BB never even wanted to capture Ace.. All he wanted was a 100+ mil bounty head to seal his position on Schibukai. He intended to take Luffy. But Ace found BB first.. So stop blaming BB for everything.

And about Luffy's situation. This was supposed to be WB Vs. Marines n Schibukai.. Luffy was not even supposed to be a part of this struggle. How can you even bring up Luffy's issue here?

Killing crewmate is bad, I totally buy that. But is that the reason to brand someone a major villain? When Shanks' crew member shot a bandit (Anime episode 4) in point blank, what was that? A noble thing? Remember what Shanks' pirates say about the war between pirates? Nothing is fair.

NoLimit89
March 20, 2010, 09:00 PM
Yea, couldn't agree with you more. I mean Luffy looks up to Roger and we know how he decimated both Squardo's crew and half of Shiki's crew.

Also, how many marine fodders have the strawhat pirates killed? Remember Ennies Lobby? The one thing that's great about One Piece is that there's no clear and boring dichotomy of good and evil.

However, backstabbing a friend and killing your "father" does constitute him as a villain though. Personally, I find Akainu to be a more hateable villain than BB but hey, that's just me.

RichardMNixon
March 20, 2010, 10:25 PM
He's not some kind of bloodthirsty slaughterer, but not all villains have to be. He's just totally amoral, he doesn't give a damn about anyone or have any respect for human life. He takes what he wants and kills anyone in his way, which is just what happened to Thatch.

Poneglyph420
March 21, 2010, 12:49 AM
If we see how Blackbeard has acted till now.

1. He killed a crewmate on WB ship.

First off, let me put a light note that this is not a rule for "every" pirate. It most certainly was an Iron clad rule on WB's ship. But AFAIK, its not a Golden rule among pirates or anything. Blackbeard openly said that he was on WB's ship solely for the purpose of finding the Devil Fruit. This shows he was cunning and that he was a schemer. But evil? Not here..

As far a crew cohesion, and overall morale crew members offing each other is bad news. Also in a manga exemplifying the spirit of "nakama" it's as bad as it gets. This makes him a bad guy.. but to what degree is subjective..



2. Captured Ace and handed him over to Marines .

Again, this cannot be deemed as an evil act. He was again covering his ass and he anyways wanted a guy with a bounty of over 100mil. Ace was not a bad bargain, yes?

Remember on Banaro when Ace and BB faced off. BB says "Ace your fire, I'm Darkness" and claims he has the evilest of all fruits...
But indeed your right, Capturing Ace.. especially alive shows he's not a monster but a calculating bastard.



He still referred to Ace as captain. He openly said he aspired to become like WB. Many things which people wouldn't normally do.. Imagine Arlong or Don Kreig or Kuro or any low life pirates having this kind of power.. I can bet they wouldn't be even half humble as BB was..


Again, back on Banaro Ace said to BB "Capt'n" isn't a term to be used disrespectfully. BB knew the psychological advantage using the term towards Ace would provide... so he said it.

He was respectful to Nami (in a way) and showed that he had the dreamers heart of a pirate, it's just now we realize he'd kill his own "father" to achieve said dreams..

They are North and South poles exactly..
IMO BB can be a villain and not be Doflamingo psychopathic or Akainu Sociopathic..

Uriel
March 21, 2010, 02:38 AM
You know why it's a villain? Because He's the final/pre-final opponent of our hero. Period.

Schabrak
March 21, 2010, 04:28 AM
Just as Uriel said, he is the one harming the main hero and as such he is the villain of the Manga. You have to stop thinking as a human reading the Manga, but put youself in Luffy's shoes. In hell he will be no villain anymore. Aside from that he is clearly going against Luffy's principle and act's like all the villains he met before. Don't want to list them, I hope you have read One Piece well enough yourself.

karthikmurs
March 21, 2010, 10:27 AM
He's not some kind of bloodthirsty slaughterer, but not all villains have to be.

Interesting point. I like that. Then again, I again quote the words of Shanks' crew (Wait.. I am not sure if this was in the manga.. But surely, it was in the anime.. I opine that Oda works closely with the anime team and hence, I can quote that here, in discussions). Its not a holy war.. In any other context, in any other manga series (Naruto fir instance), I'd definitely say he is a villain. But not in One Piece, at least to me.



He's just totally amoral, he doesn't give a damn about anyone or have any respect for human life. He takes what he wants and kills anyone in his way, which is just what happened to Thatch.

No respect for human life, how many times have we seen that? Just how many? I don't even wanna begin counting.. A quick remembrance, remember how hawkins used 10 decoys to save his life? That isn't just enough to call him a villain IMO even though he showed no compassion towards human life..
[hr]

You know why it's a villain? Because He's the final/pre-final opponent of our hero. Period.

Do you honestly believe it would be a one on one showdown? There are so many characters in One piece that its impossible to tell if there would be a showdown.. It will be at least a triple tie, IMO.
[hr]

You have to stop thinking as a human reading the Manga, but put youself in Luffy's shoes.

Oh man, I am not.. I am thinking as a "pirate", If I were thinking on humane grounds, I'd straight away deem him a villain. He is the dictionary definition of a pirate.. He is not Oda's favorite character for nothing. I am sure, the more we get to know about BB, our opinion will be subjected to a cliff hanger..



Aside from that he is clearly going against Luffy's principle and act's like all the villains he met before. Don't want to list them, I hope you have read One Piece well enough yourself.

Lets not assume anyone who doesn't align himself with luffy's principle is a bad guy. No doubt, Luffy's character is the best in the series.. But still, One piece is a character based manga as opposed to plot based.. So lets have an open mind for time being..



Don't want to list them, I hope you have read One Piece well enough yourself.

Wait.. Remember the tenrubito Auction mall incident?? It is clear that Tenryubito are not honorable. But then again, would you call anyone who pits against them as a noble person? Kid for instance, spoke like an anti-satan when he opined about Tenryubito.. So now,

Instead of comparing Luffy, compare Kuro or Arlong's mentality with BB's. If you don't see a huge difference, I am sorry. To me, the difference is just Oozing out..
[hr]

He was respectful to Nami (in a way) and showed that he had the dreamers heart of a pirate, it's just now we realize he'd kill his own "father" to achieve said dreams..

True. But, I am not sure if Blackbeard considered him a "father" although WB considered him a "son". He said he was on WB's ship just so that he knew he had more chances of running into the devil fruit he wished for long.

Uriel
March 21, 2010, 11:14 AM
Do you honestly believe it would be a one on one showdown? There are so many characters in One piece that its impossible to tell if there would be a showdown.. It will be at least a triple tie, IMO.
Did I ever said that? Nope. And believe me, those two WILL fight.

Doesn't change my point anyway. If you read what a villain is by definition, it's always as opposed to the hero by making troubles and obstacles to overcome. In this case, just wanting be a PK like Luffy makes him a Villain sorta. With all the plus you mention on the opening post.

I'm not talking to define it as a person and judge it by any other term than literally, which in the end is the only way to judge a character from a fictional work.

karthikmurs
March 21, 2010, 12:41 PM
Did I ever said that? Nope. And believe me, those two WILL fight.

Well, I meant it won't or rather, need not be the final/pre final (and this is what I meant when I said showdown). And I expect there to be a deadlock kinda situation and luffy will have to face off multiple enemies multiple times to get to Raftel, so we cannot really tell which fight paved way for him to get there.. A final fight ought to be that, which I feel is not gonna happen.. And hell yeah, Luffy and BB are gonna fight..



If you read what a villain is by definition, it's always as opposed to the hero by making troubles and obstacles to overcome.

My idea of a "villain" in specific to One piece is different. Its just me, probably. :)


I'm not talking to define it as a person and judge it by any other term than literally, which in the end is the only way to judge a character from a fictional work.

True.. And that's why we all have different opinions.. Its basically how we interpret events..

Wrath
March 21, 2010, 01:20 PM
He's a twisted version of the hero. He's not beyond taking heroic actions or attitudes, but ultimately he's too dark at heart to be anything other than a villain.

Poneglyph420
March 21, 2010, 03:38 PM
He's a twisted version of the hero. He's not beyond taking heroic actions or attitudes, but ultimately he's too dark at heart to be anything other than a villain.

There's a term for that: Anti Hero. And while it's usually applied to a protagonist, it (rarely) can apply to a compassionate antagonist. BB at first really seemed like he'd be an anti hero... however since ID he's marked himself with his dastardly deeds. He's for sure a chaotic, plotting criminal.

Here's an quote from "tips for writers"
"This is a brilliant observation that has served me well in all my writing. (The bad guy isn't doing bad stuff so he can rub his hands together and snarl.) He may be driven by greed, neuroses, or the conviction that his cause is just, but he's driven by something not unlike the things that drive a hero."

BB is seeming to fit into the context of this quote well IMO.

Uriel
March 21, 2010, 11:40 PM
I think Poneglyph defined better. Blackbeard is an Anti-Hero. Fits perfectly with the stereotype D:

It's a subjective matter, however. It's the villain for most readers because they already picked a side and a point of view. Unless that point of view (Usually defined by the main character, in this case, Luffy) changes in the history, it will be hard to not define it as villain.

I know what you try to do, but you just have to deal with the main fact: As long as Luffy has a grudge against Blackbeard, He WILL be a villain.

karthikmurs
March 22, 2010, 12:02 AM
I know what you try to do, but you just have to deal with the main fact: As long as Luffy has a grudge against Blackbeard, He WILL be a villain.

True. Poneglyph put across the point very well. And as to what you said, I agree on that as well. But personally to me, BB is one helluva pirate. Evil, I definitely agree. A great and formidable rival to Luffy, damn right. But there is a hell lot of difference between the concept of a "villain" in One Piece and the dictionary definition..

BetaRuler
March 22, 2010, 04:35 AM
I think he's quite evil.

1 - Declaring the new age his age was practically a threat to the whole world
2 - Intending to sink Marineford, the symbol of peace and justice that many civilians rely to protect them.
3 - Destroying countless peoples homes back on Banaro island

True, I don't think his mentality is as evil as Arlongs say, and Kuro (just as evil as Crocodile) was pretty cold, but BB is definately villainous.

The only thing that gets me, is IF BB had taken Luffy in, how would the rest of this plan of his have worked? As different as a Revolutionary army vs Marineford scenario could have looked...

Franckie
March 22, 2010, 08:59 AM
He is NOT responsible for war. Marines would have silently executed Ace.. But instead, they cared less and declared war against WB.. There are consequences of angering the worlds most strongest man.. All that happened later on is history..

The person responsible for Ace's death is Akainu. What did you expect BB to do when Ace kept tailing him? Surrender and offer his head? If you recollect, BB never even wanted to capture Ace.. All he wanted was a 100+ mil bounty head to seal his position on Schibukai. He intended to take Luffy. But Ace found BB first.. So stop blaming BB for everything.

Akainu dealt the final blow to Ace, but BB was carefully set up as the guy to blame, through the Amazon Lily and Impel Down arcs. BB also antagonized Luffy about Ace when Luffy was in no position to pick a fight, making BB the only person Luffy holds a grudge against.

Ace's death is what separates BB from other rivals such (Law, Kid). This trait also causes BB to be the only person in this series who is both a villain and a rival, singling BB out as the most important antagonist right now.

karthikmurs
March 22, 2010, 09:06 AM
Ace's death is what separates BB from other rivals such (Law, Kid)

Exactly my point. People judge BB mostly because they think he was responsible for Ace's death.. See, that is biased opinion. And i am opposing "that" idea.

BB never tailed Ace and hunted him down. Ace found BB. BB was looking for a man with a 100+ mil bounty so that he could get into Schibukai ranks. He just acted on self defense and may be thought why not use him to get into schibukai. Later on when BB meets luffy, he says he has no more use for him and wouldn't take his head. So his intention was pretty much to get into schibukai rank and not instigate the war. This war is what world government brought upon themselves.

Franckie
March 22, 2010, 09:18 AM
Exactly my point. People judge BB mostly because they think he was responsible for Ace's death.. See, that is biased opinion. And i am opposing "that" idea.

BB never tailed Ace and hunted him down. Ace found BB. BB was looking for a man with a 100+ mil bounty so that he could get into Schibukai ranks. He just acted on self defense and may be thought why not use him to get into schibukai. Later on when BB meets luffy, he says he has no more use for him and wouldn't take his head. So his intention was pretty much to get into schibukai rank and not instigate the war. This war is what world government brought upon themselves.

But the fact remains BB is the person who is held responsible for starting this whole mess (http://www.onemanga.com/One_Piece/578/03/). WG would have never been in a position to execute Ace without BB's involvement. The manner in which BB antagonized Luffy about the incident too makes BB the only person Luffy holds a personal grudge against.

karthikmurs
March 22, 2010, 09:21 AM
The manner in which BB antagonized Luffy about the incident too makes BB the only person Luffy holds a personal grudge against.

Oh if you are justifying why Luffy would hold a grudge against BB, sure.. He obviously does. He has to. But if you are saying that to indicate that BB is a villain, then I will have to disagree..

ScratchmenApoo
March 22, 2010, 03:29 PM
I'm guessing Blackbeard has a split personality similar to Usopp's, having pretty much the same minds, but different outlook/personality.
One is Marshall D. Teach, carrier of the will of D. He would be best defined by the speech given to Luffy/Nami/Zoro. He is stubborn, holds his head up high and is just purely awesome.
The other one is Blackbeard, a greedy bastard who wants everything and will do anything to get it, killing pretty much anyone who gets in his way.

Franckie
March 22, 2010, 03:59 PM
Oh if you are justifying why Luffy would hold a grudge against BB, sure.. He obviously does. He has to. But if you are saying that to indicate that BB is a villain, then I will have to disagree..

The key distinction between BB and Luffy is that BB has no qualms about sacrificing his comrades for his own ambitions. He killed one comrade in order to get his hands on the Yami-Yami no Mi, killed his former Captain in order to get his hands on the Gura-Gura no Mi + title, and handed Ace over to the Marines in order to get his hands on the Shichibukai title. Ace later on dies and BB shares some of the blame for Ace's death since BB decided to hand Ace over to the Marines even though he knew what could happen to Ace once that happened.

There's also the other side-stuff to consider too. BB is named after probably the most famous real-life pirate - the real BB supposadely murdered his own wife - which hints of future importance. BB also possesses the most "evil" Devil Fruit, which gives off yet another powerful hint for antagonism. Toss in a willingness to sacrifice comrades for his own ambitions, and you have what makes BB a villain. The fact it was Ace is what separates BB from Luffy's other rivals (Kid, Law) and elevates BB to Luffy's first personal villain.

There is a flip-side though to things. BB is not downright ruthless/evil/whatever. For example, back to the Ace issue: BB could have killed Ace and hand his carcass to the Marines. He didn't though since he spared Ace as a former gesture of respect for WB and had the expectation that WB would succeed in saving Ace.

Wrath
March 22, 2010, 05:28 PM
There's a term for that: Anti Hero. And while it's usually applied to a protagonist, it (rarely) can apply to a compassionate antagonist. BB at first really seemed like he'd be an anti hero... however since ID he's marked himself with his dastardly deeds. He's for sure a chaotic, plotting criminal.

Here's an quote from "tips for writers"
"This is a brilliant observation that has served me well in all my writing. (The bad guy isn't doing bad stuff so he can rub his hands together and snarl.) He may be driven by greed, neuroses, or the conviction that his cause is just, but he's driven by something not unlike the things that drive a hero."

BB is seeming to fit into the context of this quote well IMO.
No, Anti Hero really only applies to main characters. To use it to refer to just any character on the border between heroism and villainy is to corrupt the meaning.

Poneglyph420
March 22, 2010, 05:37 PM
No, Anti Hero really only applies to main characters. To use it to refer to just any character on the border between heroism and villainy is to corrupt the meaning.

While in 99% of situations you are correct, it's by no means corruption of the term to include another amazingly significant character embodying the similar characteristics. BB prob isn't a true "anti hero".
But this is a fitting additon to this conversation.

BTW I never said BB is an anti hero...

Dice
March 22, 2010, 06:19 PM
So far I got to admit that I didn't read everything of this thread. Actually I read almost nothing but that isn't a bad thing in this case since I can give my own opinion without being influenced by good argument of yours :D My opinion is still maiden-like if you want to put it that way ;) .

I think that Blackbeard is a rival on for Luffy on the journey of getting to the One Piece. Well a powerfull rival to say the least.
But he is even more than that. He's a villain at least from my, the readers point (to I only represent my own opinion). A rivalry in my opinion has a fair touch to it. The competition is important but not everything that matters. Both challengers respect the other.
There might be fights and they will be bloody in some cases but there are limits. A rival wouldn't kill his opponent who he sees as a rival when he's lying on the floor. You could say there are some unwritten rules. Sure there might be some actions that might seem cheap in one moment but there is a border a rival may never cross.

For example think of you and one of your friends being rivals. Both of you are trying to be the fastest so you have a running match fairly often. Sometimes your rival tries to distract you so he can start a little bit early. It's not cricket but it's still fine well at least the most people woudln't consider the other person as a rival.

You might get another take on this matter if the other person would brake your leg just to win. Many people would call this an evil doing and therefore the rival would most probably lose the status of a rival and become a villain.
Few people might even think that this wasn't that bad and might still consider the other person a rival but even these persons might have a limit to these rivalry.

Long story short: I think that being or not being a villain is dependent on the point of view. My point of view is that Blackbeard is a villain and I think his attitude screams villain all the way. Maybe or even probably he wants the people to look at him that way.

karthikmurs
March 22, 2010, 07:06 PM
I'm guessing Blackbeard has a split personality similar to Usopp's, having pretty much the same minds, but different outlook/personality.
One is Marshall D. Teach, carrier of the will of D. He would be best defined by the speech given to Luffy/Nami/Zoro. He is stubborn, holds his head up high and is just purely awesome.
The other one is Blackbeard, a greedy bastard who wants everything and will do anything to get it, killing pretty much anyone who gets in his way.

True.. I agree on this.. Marco also indicated that BB's physiology is something different. And with two devil fruits, BB's character is drifting slowly away from mysteriousness. All we have to do is wait for the official word from Oda.. lol.
[hr]

A rival wouldn't kill his opponent who he sees as a rival when he's lying on the floor. You could say there are some unwritten rules. Sure there might be some actions that might seem cheap in one moment but there is a border a rival may never cross.

First off, your post as coherent with the idea of this thread.. :) Thanks!

Exactly. A rival doesn't do rash things. But, this is a world of pirates. Read this (http://www.onemanga.com/One_Piece/1/32/) and the next page. This is the idea of one of the noble pirates. So, the boundaries are different.

What you say is very much true in the world we live in. But in the fantasy world of One Piece, it might/might not hold true. I believe it doesn't hold true. BB is yet to cross the threshold before I deem him to be a villain. Again, its just my opinion :)

Uriel
March 22, 2010, 10:10 PM
No, Anti Hero really only applies to main characters. To use it to refer to just any character on the border between heroism and villainy is to corrupt the meaning.
But it's a main character.

Not every main character means showing up all the time, but it means being significant in the story and play a big role. In this case, BB IS a main character.

Wrath
March 24, 2010, 07:41 PM
But it's a main character.

Not every main character means showing up all the time, but it means being significant in the story and play a big role. In this case, BB IS a main character.
No, you miss the point. The Hero in Anti-Hero is THE main character. That's what Hero means. In this case, Luffy is the Hero. An Anti-Hero is a Hero who exhibits villainous characteristics.

Truefan21
March 26, 2010, 04:09 PM
Duuuuuuuuhhhhhhhhhh
Its like asking why is the sky blue.
He is the complete opposite of luffy, he revels in chaos.

kangclaw
April 11, 2010, 04:04 PM
Seriously, are some people thinking that BB may not be a bad guy/villain?

What kind of person attacks innocent weaklings?
Example: Drum Island Chopper's home Island, was trashed by BB and his crew this is the first time we hear about BB. BB also caused damage to the people of Banaro Island before he fought Ace, if you read the manga you find the evidence.

There are other reasons but people have already given. Someone who is willing to deceive to achieve his ends. He is willing to kill his own nakama.

undertoe
April 11, 2010, 07:14 PM
He is not an anti-hero; he is a FOIL. He is Luffy's foil: similar in many ways but different in some very important ways.

hossice
April 11, 2010, 08:17 PM
ok idk how people can classify anyone in one piece as one or the other. In actuallity the marines are good and the pirates (black beard, strawhats, red haired, etc) are bad. but in here the straw hats are good. so does that make everyone else good? no. does it make the marines good? no. just look at red shit akainu. well thats personal =p. Blackbeard is just a goal for luffy to reach.

as i once heard; "evil is only as bad as one thinks it to be" * i might have messed it up =/ *

undertoe
April 11, 2010, 08:21 PM
The marines are good? How so? They're about as good as the Empire from Star Wars. Both are representative of wholly oppressive and tyrannical governments.

kangclaw
April 12, 2010, 04:11 AM
I am curious could BB come from one of the islands of evil country?
In the manga, Dr Hogback from Thriller Bark talks of Oz, he also mention something called the Evil Country made by Oz. Oz's belt has three skulls, BB's flag has three skulls?
Just curious.

Shiro-kun
April 12, 2010, 04:45 AM
Marines good?
Pirates bad?
Marines bad?
Pirates good?

what kinda black and grey morality is this?

Through out the series we seen good pirates ( SH crew most profoundly ) and bad pirates (Krieg , Arlong , Croc , Moria) . Also we seen good marines(Coby , Garp , Smoker and Aokiji(debatable) and bad marines (Akainu , Most VA it seems )

Blackbeard seems to be self centered and only cares about his dreams , and will do anything to reach the top and obtain his dreams...seriously i would consider him a villain for his actions (backstabbing? elaborate plans that involve backstabbing ) personally.

kangclaw
April 12, 2010, 05:46 AM
BB is obviously a villain that I am surprised that anyone can think that he may be a good guy. There are many signs in the manga that he is a villain. He is a villain that has plans, he is a villain that is smart. The WG and the marines did not suspect what his plans were. The only one who seemed to know BB's plans was Shanks.

undertoe
April 12, 2010, 08:47 AM
Marines good?
Pirates bad?
Marines bad?
Pirates good?

what kinda black and grey morality is this?

Through out the series we seen good pirates ( SH crew most profoundly ) and bad pirates (Krieg , Arlong , Croc , Moria) . Also we seen good marines(Coby , Garp , Smoker and Aokiji(debatable) and bad marines (Akainu , Most VA it seems )

Blackbeard seems to be self centered and only cares about his dreams , and will do anything to reach the top and obtain his dreams...seriously i would consider him a villain for his actions (backstabbing? elaborate plans that involve backstabbing ) personally.

The Marines are a tyrannical organization. They destroyed an entire island because they were pursuing forbidden knowledge. That is evil. This is not to say that all its MEMBERS are evil. Many of the members only seek to stop the evils of despicable pirates or are unaware of many of the Marines' actions. It's also been pretty clear that most people in the OP world assume all pirates are bad based on the actions of a few.

So yes, there are good Marines, but it is an evil organization.

Pirates are more variable. Some are good, some are bad, but they're hardly a defined organization.

Poneglyph420
April 14, 2010, 01:50 AM
The Marines are a tyrannical organization. They destroyed an entire island because they were pursuing forbidden knowledge. That is evil. This is not to say that all its MEMBERS are evil. Many of the members only seek to stop the evils of despicable pirates or are unaware of many of the Marines' actions. It's also been pretty clear that most people in the OP world assume all pirates are bad based on the actions of a few.

So yes, there are good Marines, but it is an evil organization.

Pirates are more variable. Some are good, some are bad, but they're hardly a defined organization.

The Marines aren't evil like BB is.. But I feel bad for the Marines.
They seem like they are really just pawns to me.
Up to this point we haven't seen any real "directives" from the Marines, more reaction and response. And on several fronts even that was shoddy.
In the end it all boils down to the Tenryuubito and the other forces of the WG.. (IE: Vegaunk, Gorousei, etc.). With the direction of such broken morals it's hard to operate based in a sense on benevolence and "moral" justice.

Figures such as Garp and Smoker can be praised for their "purity" in sensibility as rare figures in the WG system...

Sorry for drifting there...

BB is a clever and calculated kind of evil..
I suppose the word is Premeditated ...

If were going by levels of degree sure there are others who are as evil as all sorts of people...

But BB is still as evil as they come..
Though if BB killed a Tenryuubito I'd cheer him on... for the moment.

undertoe
April 15, 2010, 02:41 PM
I am curious could BB come from one of the islands of evil country?
In the manga, Dr Hogback from Thriller Bark talks of Oz, he also mention something called the Evil Country made by Oz. Oz's belt has three skulls, BB's flag has three skulls?
Just curious.

I noted this a while ago, and I definitely think there's a connection. Oars Jr had a necklace with three skulls as well.