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kkck
March 24, 2010, 12:13 AM
This is a matchup I have been thinking about for quite some time now.

Hiyori was a VC 100 years ago, long before renji even considered being a shinigami. On top of that she has hollow powers which basically provide her a significant boost. She showed the capacity to fight alongside Lisa and hitsugaya against Harribel without actually being a liability which means she has at least decent attack power and speed. Her shikai is rather interesting and seems to be specifically for close range combat (although there could be more to it).

Renji has proven repeatedly to be one of the more capable VCs. On top of that he is the only one among them who has a bankai which definitely puts him a level above the rest. Not good at kido but is definitely a experienced fighting willing to take risks.

Ikkaku is also one of the better fighters in SS. He has been implied to be as strong or even stronger than a VC. His bankai is nothing but raw power and can be quite deadly. A good fighter capable of strategies and has quite some experience.

So who would win? Hiyori fights each of them individually and a previous battle has not effect on the next. Basically each battle has both fighters at 100%.

Personally, I lean towards hiyori in both battles. Her mask boost would be at least comparable to either ikkaku's or renji's bankai if not quite stronger considering she has full control over the mask while renji and ikkaku seem to lack experience with their respective bankai.

El Samurai Guapo
March 24, 2010, 12:18 AM
I lean towards Hiyori as well, even though I think she's the least impressive of the vizards. Hopefully we'll see more of her shikai in the future though. I think Ikkaku would be a pretty close fight though. I was hoping that we'd get to see his bankai again during this arc, but it doesn't look like that will be happening.

Delbi
March 24, 2010, 12:24 AM
In terms of actual fighting ability and tactical analysis and stuff like that, I'd say Ikkaku and Renji are better than Hiyori.

It reamins to be seen if Hiyori could surive either Renji or Ikkau's Bankai. Ikkau's especially since it's nothing but raw power.

IMO, Hiyori is one of the weakest Vizards, and Renji and Ikkaku are basically low captain level as it stands, so I'd give it to them in both scenerio's.

El Samurai Guapo
March 24, 2010, 02:52 AM
I actually think Ikkaku is quite a bit above Renji. He's the one that trained Renji, after all, and has been a shinigami longer. Ikkaku has probably had his bankai longer (and thus more proficient at using it).

That being said, I haven't seen anything from either of their bankai's that would put them on par with a real captain level shinigami. So I'd say that they're both somewhere in between the realm between a captain and VC (which is actually a huge gap). Because of Hollowfication, I'd place Hiyori in that same category as well, which means that this fight(s) certainly wouldn't be mismatches.

I'd still like to think that Hiyori would win, because I think that hollowfication is a bigger boost in power than a bankai. Especially a premature bankai.

Richo
March 24, 2010, 04:29 AM
Hiyori might not have Bankai like Ikkaku and Renji but she was more then a match for Ichigo before they started training for gaining his mask.
http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/216/10/
we see here that hiyori was able to nearly break ichigo his zanpaktou with a single sword slash, It has been explained that a enemy needs considerable more reiatsu focused in his zanpaktou to be able to this (Kenpachi did explain this to ichigo during their fight). Renji wasnt even able do that when ichigo didnt have shikai yet.
Hiyori vs Renjis is a obvious win for Hiyori even with his bankai (wich makes him slow).
Hiyori vs Ikkaku might be a close call. Ikkaku is still able to perform some considerable speed when in bankai. I judge a Tie for hiyori and Ikkaku

Galbert-Kun
March 25, 2010, 01:19 PM
I'll lean towards Ikkaku being a better matchup for Hiyori. When she first got her hollow powers, she easily got a hit off Shinji. Hiyori and Ikkaku both are close range fighters. Even though Hiyori is a vizard, we do not know any shikai ability she has. I'm going with Ikkaku because of the bankai.

Kaiten
March 26, 2010, 02:57 PM
Since Renji has gotten his ass kicked every time he fights, I consider him a liability. Any character with above average shikai have beaten him. His fight with Byakuya was fairly impressive but he still lost. He couldn't handle Szayel even with Ishida's help, Mayuri needed to intervene or they would have died. Ikkaku could throw the fight in their favor. He's been impressive even in losing fights, against Ichigo for example. His fight in the Arrancar arc was one of the most bad ass in the series. Still, I think Hiyori will win for one big reason: Ikkaku will not use his bankai in front of other shinigami. He's so adamant about that he was willing to lose the battle of the pillars to keep it a secret. Without his bankai I think Hiyori will narrowly defeat him and Renji.

kkck
March 26, 2010, 02:59 PM
Fights are one on one to the death. There is no one to see ikkaku other than hiyori therefore he would use bankai.

Kaiten
March 26, 2010, 03:02 PM
I missed the "or" part of the title. I'm to used to reading the Naruto fantasy fights.

If it's one on one and no other shinigami are present, Ikkaku beats Hiyori. He's a monster, I think he's stronger than any of the other VC. Even with her mask I don't think Hiyori could handle him, based on what we know of her now.

Renji loses either way. That big, unwieldy bankai leaves him vulnerable. Hiyori is fast enough, even without her mask, to beat him down.

thornofcarrion
March 26, 2010, 03:30 PM
I think we haven't seen enough of Hiyori yet to conclude that she is stronger or weaker than Renji and Ikkaku. With limited info about Hiyori, I will say Ikkaku. Like kaiten-dono I agree, he looked the most powerful VC amongst all. Even Hisagi looked more powerful than Renji ;).

Theoretically speaking Hiyori should be more powerful. She was a VC quite long before and she has the mask. But we all know, how things are not what they look on paper.

kkck
March 26, 2010, 03:32 PM
I don't really see how hiyori would not be able to keep up or even best ikkaku's capacities though. I do think Ikkaku is a lot stronger than most VCs though. His bankai, while it does increase his power, does not increase his stamina or speed. On the other hand, hiyori will have a significant increase in speed, stamina and strength from her mask. Her shikai also seems to be the type to increase attack power and on top of that would also receive a significant boost from mask. Basically mask provides greater and more boosts than what ikkaku would get from his bankai. Hiyori will also have none of the constrains ikkaku does get from bankai. IMHO if hiyori was at any level where she could be taken out by any VC level guy, even with bankai, she would not have been able to keep up with harribel -even if they did gang up on her-.

Xerneas
March 26, 2010, 03:40 PM
You guys are funny. Ikkaku is a monster and stronger than all the VC? The same Ikkaku that struggled to defeat a Fraccion, going all-out with his Ban Kai? No. I don't even think he's stronger than Renji, who at least had the excuse of being under a limiter when he almost lost to his Fraccion. Hisagi has been the most impressive VC, leaving aside the cheap victory over Kaname. Kira and Yumichika have been impressive too. So all this Ikkaku hype is baffling, unless people think Edorad was the strongest Fraccion by miles or something.

Anyway, I voted for a Hiyori victory over both, even though I don't have anything really solid to back it up. I can't see her beating Renji with just mask. But Kubo didn't show her and Lisa's Shi Kai powers against Hallibel. That could only be because he's saving them for later because they are quite powerful.

thornofcarrion
March 26, 2010, 03:45 PM
True and that is why I said on paper I think she can beat both of them. Throwing a random thought into the discussion, it has been so so many years that Vizards were exiled from SS. Hiyori was a VC even before her hollowfication. I was just thinking, if someone like Ikkaku and Renji were able to achieve Bankai, why would she not do the same. I am not sure if having hollow powers can help her gain bankia faster or easier. Vizards wanted to have revenge against Aizen, they should have trained themselves all this time. In nutshell, chances of Hiyro defeating both of them is pretty good.

Richo
March 26, 2010, 03:48 PM
You guys are funny. Ikkaku is a monster and stronger than all the VC? The same Ikkaku that struggled to defeat a Fraccion, going all-out with his Ban Kai? No. I don't even think he's stronger than Renji, who at least had the excuse of being under a limiter when he almost lost to his Fraccion. Hisagi has been the most impressive VC, leaving aside the cheap victory over Kaname. Kira and Yumichika have been impressive too. So all this Ikkaku hype is baffling, unless people think Edorad was the strongest Fraccion by miles or something.

Anyway, I voted for a Hiyori victory over both, even though I don't have anything really solid to back it up. I can't see her beating Renji with just mask. But Kubo didn't show her and Lisa's Shi Kai powers against Hallibel. That could only be because he's saving them for later because they are quite powerful.

all these Fraccion where Adjuchas level arrancar remember that. They all choose to be numerous in order to follow their "king" GJ.


True and that is why I said on paper I think she can beat both of them. Throwing a random thought into the discussion, it has been so so many years that Vizards were exiled from SS. Hiyori was a VC even before her hollowfication. I was just thinking, if someone like Ikkaku and Renji were able to achieve Bankai, why would she not do the same. I am not sure if having hollow powers can help her gain bankia faster or easier. Vizards wanted to have revenge against Aizen, they should have trained themselves all this time. In nutshell, chances of Hiyro defeating both of them is pretty good.

The vizards all stated they hated the shinigami. They all embraced their hollow powers as they were superior to their shinigami powers. If the vizards trained at all they trained their hollow powers rather then their shinigami powers.

Xerneas
March 26, 2010, 04:03 PM
all these Fraccion where Adjuchas level arrancar remember that. They all choose to be numerous in order to follow their "king" GJ.

It doesn't even matter cause I doubt the likes of Hallibel and Barragan had Gillian Fraccion. Also can't see a guy like Barragan allowing inferior Fraccion to #6's follow him around. Or why Kubo would introduce weaker enemies for the so-called "elites" to take center stage in battles that lasted a whole bloody year. All signs point to Barragan/Hallibel having superior Fraccion to Grimmjow, which is only natural.

Hisagi/Kira/Yumichika all dealt with their opponents handily, whilst Ikkaku and Renji struggled. The latter had the limiter excuse. Ikkaku doesn't, he's just weak.

poobert
March 26, 2010, 04:55 PM
In the grand scheme of things, both Renji and Ikaku are weak. They struggle to fight fraccion, who, regardless of how good, will always be weaker than espada 10. They would get trashed by Grim, Nnoi or Uli. The fact that Hiyori simply faced Halibel and pulled through shows by how much she trumps them.

http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/375/18/

Look at that. Halibel is going at them with everything in her released form. Any other vc would be dead with one swing.

As for individual strengths, I agree with the people who say Ikkaku is stronger. Renji's bankai is more versatile, but Ikkaku is simply the better fighter. But against Hyori who is fast and has a long range attack (cero) I think Renji would preform slightly better. But he would still get trashed.