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Gran Maestro
April 15, 2010, 05:06 AM
What we know about them:

- Yamamoto says "Their skills were outstanding and they were much stronger than their peers and predecessors."

- They are relatively old and had lots of time to polish their skills.

- They held their own against Yamamoto (the strongest shinigami) in a brief fight. (They seemed to be on the losing end though.)

- Shunsui was the one who defeated #1 espada Stark with his shikai. (With questionable tactics according to some people)

- WW took Ukitake out of the battle. (Ukitake has a soft spot for kids though.)

What do you think of these guys? We have 10 captains in Gotei 13, 3 traitors, Urahara, Yoruichi, Tessai, Isshin, 4 vizard captains, 21 captains in total. If 7 of these 21 are high-tier, 7 of these are mid-tier and 7 of these are low-tier, in which tier would Shunsui (& Ukitake if in the same tier) be?

En Yang Ji
April 15, 2010, 12:03 PM
I think their overrated. They may be a level below Aizen and Yama, but it doesn't mean there aren't many of other captains who can compete with them or possibly beat them. IMO Urahara, Yoruichi, Shinji, Tessai, Tousen, Soi Fong, Isshin and Gin can possibly beat them. They aren't so dominant that they can easily beat everyone under Aizen and Yama.

Kaiten
April 15, 2010, 02:05 PM
They are both characters I am indifferent too, no matter how strong. Neither really interest me. I'm not sure about overrated though. Without seeing bankai I don't believe any captain can be properly judged. They certainly should be among the most powerful, only Unohana and Yama are older, they are the first two Shinigami Academy students to be promoted to captain. That has to count for something. While I dislike Shunsui's shikai (seems hax to me) it is pretty fearsome, he killed Starrk with relatively little ease. Ukitake has not had a truly long, significant fight. His battle prowess is almost impossible to evaluate.

kkck
April 15, 2010, 02:11 PM
I think they are overated to a great deal. I think they indeed are among the strongest captains but I still think they would have some trouble getting a victory over any other captain level shinigami -even if just using shikai-.

poobert
April 15, 2010, 04:12 PM
I think Shunsui may be overrated. Uki hasn't done much, but people seem to think that Shunsui taking out starrk with his shikai means that he is automatically better than both love and rose put together.

I think the pair of them are on the same level as Shinji, urahara, Gin and Yoruichi and possibly arrancar tousen. Any one on one match between them would be a tough call.

However, together, I think they can beat any and every other pair (that doesn't include Aizen or Yama) because they specifically work as a team, which no other shinigami does. I believe that is where their true strength lies.

zimbardo
April 15, 2010, 04:27 PM
After watching Aizen vs Isshin, I am inclined to believe that had Shinji and Shunsui not started the fight under Aizen's illusion they could have beaten him. Aizen's illusion seems to be hard to pull off in the middle of a fight (otherwise he would have done it to Isshin). Therefore it is not fair to classify their loss against Aizen (quite a walkover in my opinion) as a mark against their skill.
With this said I do not believe Shunsui to be overrated as the only time we see him lose, it was under questionable circumstances.
Taking on the number 1 arancar (one of the only really capable ones in my opinion other than Barragan and Ulquitoria) and winning - even if it was down to his shikai - still deserves alot of respect. So does having Yammamoto give him and Ukitake such respect.
As for a hax shikai - well it is part of his abilities and is one of the reasons why he is strong - you wouldn't take Aizen's, Byakuya's or Yammamoto's away from them......
Ukitake is difficult to determine as nothing was really shown.

Raimaru
April 15, 2010, 06:22 PM
If you start to rate characters by splitting them from their traits and abilities, you will end up everyone lose to Kenpachi. This might be the dream of many Kenny fanboys here, but it's just unlikely.
Therefore, if Ukitake is able to take out Stark with his shikai, then he ... uhm ... is able to take out Stark with his shikai?
I think people have problem to judge Ukitake's abilities since it looked like a rather small effort to take out Stark. I was about to question latter's abilities. Thinking twice, there must've been a good reason he's been primera and not number two.

Please note that we have seen every low and mid tier captains' bankai by now. Everyone of the high tier has been relucant to use their power and abilities at all. Having a character in the series for a longer period and knowing nearly nothing about his power at the same time is a good indicator that Kubo holds him back to raise the power level later. This includes Yamamoto (maybe), Unohana, Ukitake, Kyouraku, Aizen, Kurosaki (Isshin) and Urahara. I thought about adding Hirako too although being beaten by Aizen's Kyouka Suigetsu, but he seems not to be special enough up to now.

Yes ... no Gin, no Ichigo, no Byakuya, no Yoruichi, no Kenpachi, no Vaizards, and whatever else fanboys may dream of. Everyone I included in the list above is either extremely old or a genius among geniuses. Gin is a single genius. Another reason for not adding Hirako, maybe.

Additionally, let's remember that it took a hell lot of a time to even catch a view on the high tier's shikai abilities, if at all, since two of them haven't even shown their shikai yet.

Hystzen
April 15, 2010, 07:02 PM
What we know about them:

- Yamamoto says "Their skills were outstanding and they were much stronger than their peers and predecessors."

- They are relatively old and had lots of time to polish their skills.

- They held their own against Yamamoto (the strongest shinigami) in a brief fight. (They seemed to be on the losing end though.)

- Shunsui was the one who defeated #1 espada Stark with his shikai. (With questionable tactics according to some people)

- WW took Ukitake out of the battle. (Ukitake has a soft spot for kids though.)

What do you think of these guys? We have 10 captains in Gotei 13, 3 traitors, Urahara, Yoruichi, Tessai, Isshin, 4 vizard captains, 21 captains in total. If 7 of these 21 are high-tier, 7 of these are mid-tier and 7 of these are low-tier, in which tier would Shunsui (& Ukitake if in the same tier) be?

that looks really wrong :p.

i dont find them over rated just think kubo been lazy not showing what they can do...shunsui beating starrk shikai very impressive (well compared to how the other captains fought) better than rose or love dunno bout that. i find they would be high tier as they been around and practised together since the academy. unohana that is a over rated character every assumes she is a good fighter because of a few hints in the manga :tem she concentrates on being a healer for a reason im not saying completey useless in a fight just not as good as alot of the gotei 13

Eddy01741
April 15, 2010, 09:03 PM
Overrated on this forum? Yeah, kinda, I personally think that others are more overrated than them though. It's shunsui mostly, since we haven't seen much of Ukitake, but people revere Shunsui as almost a god for defeating Stark with his shikai (his shikai ability somehow negated Stark's wolves, which was likely his strongest attack).

However, if you put the 21 captain tier characters, I'd most definitely put Shunsui in the high tier, and Ukitake will probably be there too from the comments we've heard about them, but he is yet to show much.

El Samurai Guapo
April 15, 2010, 10:06 PM
Jushirou isn't so much, but Shunsui is definitely overrated. People need to take more in depth looks at the manga, and the fights that occur in it. It's not as simple as A > B so A must be stronger than C, D, F, G, etc.

Unfortunately that is the flawed logic that some are projecting on this forum.

Lunatic Scream
April 15, 2010, 11:08 PM
Yes, not everything is in terms of raw power in Bleach. However, Shunsui's willingness to fight dirty and tactically is an asset he has that basically every other Captain doesn't have for some reason. People can try and argue that because he snuck up on Starrk and was relentless in the cheap shots that he's not "stronger" than Love or Rose, but I'd consider all the sneakiness as strength when it comes to battle. It's not "ZOMG RAW REIATSU HE'S > THAN THEM", no. I think he's stronger because he is a more ruthless combatant, and ultimately he WAS able to achieve alone what Love and Rose couldn't together.

Kinda like Aizen... right now, either Isshin is just leaps and bounds above every Shinigami in this story, or Aizen is CONSIDERABLY weaker without all the deceit, planning, strategy, and opportunistic fighting, especially the kind allowed by Kyouka Suigetsu. As far as we know, he's fighting unreleased v. unreleased against Isshin, and last chapter made it clear that Isshin is at least a match for him.

So basically, Shunsui's overrated if people are thinking that he can bat an eyelash towards a lesser Captain and crush them, or assuming that something as simple as a vast reiatsu source will allow him to win against any lower tier captain. However, I don't think he's overrated if people are judging him as able to beat the other captains because he's a more capable and experienced fighter than them, because... well, he is. And that's nothing to take lightly.

I won't speak on Ukitake. Dude's gotten mauled with the plot stick...

El Samurai Guapo
April 16, 2010, 03:40 AM
So basically, Shunsui's overrated if people are thinking that he can bat an eyelash towards a lesser Captain and crush them, or assuming that something as simple as a vast reiatsu source will allow him to win against any lower tier captain. However, I don't think he's overrated if people are judging him as able to beat the other captains because he's a more capable and experienced fighter than them, because... well, he is. And that's nothing to take lightly.

I won't speak on Ukitake. Dude's gotten mauled with the plot stick...

That's what I think of Shunsui, that he's a bit stronger than the other captains because of his experience and willingness to to what it takes to win. I've said this before in other threads, he is probably stronger than the other current captains, but no so much stronger that if you gave them hollow powers he'd still come out on top.

In other words, I think that if you gave Kenpachi, Toshirou, Soi Fon, etc. a hollow mask, the tables would be turned and they would annihilate Shunsui or Jushirou. This is why it is reasonable to assume that the vizards who were former captains are more powerful, because as as shinigami there's no reason to believe that they'd be weaker the characters I mentioned above.

As for Ukitake Jushirou, now that I think about it, he doesn't seem to be too durable. We've seen other characters get hands put through their bodies and still continue to fight.

Gran Maestro
April 16, 2010, 05:40 AM
Well, I believe Shunsui (shikai) is on par with Stark (resurreccion) and they would have equal chances in a rematch. On the other hand, IMO many captains (including vizards except Shinji) stand no chance against espada #1 without going bankai, this is why I believe there's a considerable difference between Shunsui and the captains who have no winning chance against Stark without bankai.

Nobody says Shunsui can reiatsu-choke the other captains (like Hitsugaya for example) but IMO his experience & strength prevail over most of captain-level opponents.

And "A>B>C" doesn't always prove that "A>C" but most of the time it makes more sense than saying "C>A" to promote our favorite characters without basis. Otherwise, for example, who is stopping Yachiru fans from saying "Yachiru is stronger than Yamamoto, disprove me if you can". Favoritism should never overrule common sense, it doesn't look good on anybody.

Raizen
April 16, 2010, 10:58 AM
There is no overestimation if they have shown skills that have been implied throughout the manga. Case in point, shunsui fought against the #1 espada w/o even releasing his shikai. While someone like ichigo needed mask and bankai to deal with unreleased ulqui. What does that say to you?

Even against Aizen, shunsui put up a great performance. In the end it was his worry for hitsu that left him open. While other weak indivduals like love and rose took on aizen and got owned like they were childrens
[hr]

yama, aizan, isshin and shinji are better than them
uhara, yoruchi, gin and unohana are equal
How do you put shinji aboce them when shinji has yet to do anything impressive? Have u forgotten he failed the same way they did, except shunsui actually took on and defeated an opponent

Cyven
April 19, 2010, 08:57 AM
no... and yes.

I'll try to deal with each separately...

Shunsui:
He was able to match Stark with both unreleased, eventually killed Stark with his Shikai's ability.
Besides that, he's displayed two abilities:
-The game
-Melding with shadow

Both abilities suit him perfectly, especially the latter, as he's displayed a combat style that exploits every perceived opening in his enemy's defense. The game ability has its weakness, as Stark revealed when he managed to get in a good hit on Shunsui, but on the flipside, had Shunsui said "black" immediately, Stark would never have had a chance to counter.

Unfortunately, this fight which elevated him to the level that we had expected from him since the Yama fight, was immediately undone by having him be dealt with by Aizen in the brawl with the same ease as Hitsugaya (whom Shunsui admitted was weaker) and a weary, one-armed Soi Fong. I would have preferred to see Shunsui take Aizen on with his bankai, or at least put up more of a fight, but there is only so much a manga can show before grinding to a halt plot-wise.

On the whole though, I think Shunsui is still a high tier captain, but the Aizen fight reduced my perception of his strength.

Ukitake:

Ergh. The only captain to show less of their power is Unohana. Not a lot to say about him, but he is held in high regard by Yama, who places him at Shunsui's level. Sure, his disease will incapacitate him at the most inopportune of moments (see Kaien's death for example), but from what we've seen of his shikai, he has at least one powerful ability:
-channeling an enemy's kidou/cero/whatevabeam attack, absorbing it in one sword, distorting it to make it harder to negate, and sending it back.

Of course Stark showed the limit to this ability, and before Ukitake had more chance to show off why he's held in such high regard, WW has to show up and ruin everything.
Now Uki's stuck in a black hole of plot (not to be confused with plothole) and he might never get a chance to show off why SS chars considers him to be strong.

DEATHBOTT
April 19, 2010, 09:15 AM
There is no overestimation if they have shown skills that have been implied throughout the manga. Case in point, shunsui fought against the #1 espada w/o even releasing his shikai. While someone like ichigo needed mask and bankai to deal with unreleased ulqui. What does that say to you?

Even against Aizen, shunsui put up a great performance. In the end it was his worry for hitsu that left him open. While other weak indivduals like love and rose took on aizen and got owned like they were childrens
<hr noshade size="1">

How do you put shinji aboce them when shinji has yet to do anything impressive? Have u forgotten he failed the same way they did, except shunsui actually took on and defeated an opponent

because the only one i can see logically beating his shikai is aizan. i guess someone could reitsu stomp him but i don't think shunsui can do that. and besides the only opponent shinji fought was aizan and its abit unfair to judge him by a loss to the main antangonist. and don't blame shunsuis loss on his caring nature. aizan could have just as easily stabbed him in the face while shunsui was cutting hinamori in half.

Raizen
April 19, 2010, 02:03 PM
^^Saying that the only one that can beat shinji's shikai is aizen is crap considering we know that yama is stronger than aizen and from the looks of it isshin may be too.

Yea shinji's shikai is pretty scary, but captains who have been there for a millenium would be able to deal with it.

En Yang Ji
April 19, 2010, 04:17 PM
Just because Yama is "stronger" than Aizen doesn't mean he can do everything Aizen can do. Aizen is better than Yama in certain areas. As far as intelligence is concerned Aizen is far above Yama. His intelligence seems to be the main reason Aizen could deal with Shinji's shikai.

DEATHBOTT
April 19, 2010, 04:54 PM
^^Saying that the only one that can beat shinji's shikai is aizen is crap considering we know that yama is stronger than aizen and from the looks of it isshin may be too.

Yea shinji's shikai is pretty scary, but captains who have been there for a millenium would be able to deal with it.

how? and i said maybe you can reitsu stomp your way out but do you really think shunsui could reitsu stomp shinji? shinji's shikai is hax all he needs to do is stand there firing cero while his enemies get burnt to a crisp working out whats going on. the only reson aizan can get out is because his zanpakuto controls more than shinjis.

El Samurai Guapo
April 19, 2010, 09:42 PM
how? and i said maybe you can reitsu stomp your way out but do you really think shunsui could reitsu stomp shinji? shinji's shikai is hax all he needs to do is stand there firing cero while his enemies get burnt to a crisp working out whats going on. the only reson aizan can get out is because his zanpakuto controls more than shinjis.

Correct. Intelligence, speed, reaction time, etc. none of those have anything to do with Aizen defeating sakanade. Aizen simply used his own superior hypnosis to nullify Shinji's.

Eddy01741
April 19, 2010, 10:02 PM
Well, since Sakenade has only been used against one individual (AIzen), and since Aizen used KS to get out of it both times, we really can't determine whether other opponents could fight effectively against sakenade (other than just overcoming the ability with reiatsu).

Basically, it's not impossible that an opponent could become accustomed to the reverse world.

Also, to address this question:

do you really think shunsui could reitsu stomp shinji?

He could potentially..... we don't know what levels of reiatsu shinji has in comparison to Shunsui. I'm not saying that Shunsui can, I'm just saying that Shinji hasn't really overwhelmed nor underwhelmed an opponent with his reiatsu.

kkck
April 19, 2010, 11:18 PM
How did aizen used his hypnosis to counter sakenade? I don't think the manga ever showed aizen using his illusion to counter it at any point. The impression I had was that aizen countered it simply because a simple optical illusion is not something which would stop aizen in any way.

vizardichigo
April 19, 2010, 11:43 PM
I think they are in no way overrated. Of all the captains we have seen fight so far, the only ones i would put above them are Yama, Aizen, Isshin, Shinji and maybe Urahara and Gin not sure bout the last 2 though since Urahara never really fought seriously and Gin is still in a battle. Since i Urahara and Gin are still in question i would say that only those 4 (Yama, Aizen, Isshin, Shinji) are definitely stronger and maybe Urahara, Gin and Unohana..They are strong, very strong IMO..

Hystzen
April 20, 2010, 05:35 AM
shunsui has been impressive beat starrk with shikai but still had help with love and rose as a distraction. ukitake i want to be good but the way kubo likes making him pointless is irksome espically when characters like momo get more battle time.

i place shinji either above or below shunusi yes he is strong but he coundt kill one arm grimmjow with his mask what the hell that about yet he only one to cut aizen :S. people over rate characters yes but it is a forum it bount to happen just over zealous fanboys dont listen to other people.

to sort out shinji kubo needs to show us when shinji was at the acedemy coz shinji could have been at academy like a couple of months behind shunusi and uki

AlB
April 20, 2010, 05:53 AM
Shunsui is not overrated. he is awesome, his sword is awesome and his tactics are SMART! this is the war, who gives the shit for honor and pride, just stab the guy in the back while he's not looking!!! this is how wars are fouht and won. those who don't cheat end up on the losing side. Shunsui defeated Stark with his brain, he used the distraction provided by Vizard duo to deliver a serious blow and weaken his opponent significantly, so he could finish him off more easily later on. thing is, we don't know if he is a powerhouse/juggernaut like Yama, Aizen. hell, Stark could be stronger for all we know! it's just that Shunsui exploited every possible opening to kill him. the guy's got brains, and that's what I like about him

I'd say Shunshun is the 5th deadliest char in bleach after Aizen, Yama, Kisuke, Shinji and Mayuri (don't know anything about Isshin and Unohana, since we haven't seen their powers) note: deadliest doesn't neccesserily mean strongest

Ukitake is overrated though, duh. the only thing that pussy did succesfully was play around with lillinette, and he couldn't even track WW's and Stark's movements LOL :notrust

btw: why did this discussion go from "Shunsui and Ukitake" to "Shinji vs Shunsui"? :blink

DEATHBOTT
April 20, 2010, 06:32 AM
Shunsui is not overrated. he is awesome, his sword is awesome and his tactics are SMART! this is the war, who gives the shit for honor and pride, just stab the guy in the back while he's not looking!!! this is how wars are fouht and won. those who don't cheat end up on the losing side. Shunsui defeated Stark with his brain, he used the distraction provided by Vizard duo to deliver a serious blow and weaken his opponent significantly, so he could finish him off more easily later on. thing is, we don't know if he is a powerhouse/juggernaut like Yama, Aizen. hell, Stark could be stronger for all we know! it's just that Shunsui exploited every possible opening to kill him. the guy's got brains, and that's what I like about him

I'd say Shunshun is the 5th deadliest char in bleach after Aizen, Yama, Kisuke, Shinji and Mayuri (don't know anything about Isshin and Unohana, since we haven't seen their powers) note: deadliest doesn't neccesserily mean strongest

Ukitake is overrated though, duh. the only thing that pussy did succesfully was play around with lillinette, LOL :notrust


btw: why did this discussion go from "Shunsui and Ukitake" to "Shinji vs Shunsui"? :blink

because some people think that shunsui wouldn't be affected by sakenade and therefore is better than shinji.

poobert
April 20, 2010, 07:58 AM
How did aizen used his hypnosis to counter sakenade? I don't think the manga ever showed aizen using his illusion to counter it at any point. The impression I had was that aizen countered it simply because a simple optical illusion is not something which would stop aizen in any way.

Shinji's shikai is not an optical illusion. It just reverses all of your senses. Your sight, hearing, smell, perception of the direction of reatsu, probably your touch too, otherwise you can close your eyes and fight.

Aizen countered it because he had Shinji under illuision fighting thin air. He then had ages to set up a single slash.

A character like shunsui, Uki or Aizen will have no problem moving backwards if they have time to think. It is when you are faced with this:
http://beta.onemanga.com/Bleach/400/08/
If Shinji did what Gin is doing here, there is no chance in hell that you can block every attack perfectly. Even Yama couldn't do it (and I also doubt anyone in the bleachverse has enough reatsu to nullify the effects of a high tier captain's zanpakto).

I agree with AlB that Shunsui is smart, but he is also ruthless. He didn't hesitate to back stab starrk the second he could manage it. Ukitake didn't want to fight starrk because he thought it would be 2v1, shunsui however, would have jumped at the opportunity. There are few characters with battle smarts like that.

Hystzen
April 20, 2010, 08:33 AM
out of all of the people in FKT shunsui has been the only one fighting smart by doing sneak attacks it best way to avoid been killed or tiring yourself out (soi fon). just wouldnt mind if uki had more panel time before i judge him fully.

AlB
April 20, 2010, 08:43 AM
because some people think that shunsui wouldn't be affected by sakenade and therefore is better than shinji.

why should he be not affected by Sakanade? :blink wow, people on forums sure like to spout nonsense, be it Tobi=Obito=Danzo, Isshin being King and now this lolz. anyway, maybe Shunsui is stronger captain than Shinji, but once he is affected by Sakanade it's all over. the only reason Aizen was able to adjust to the shit that Sakanade creates was that he is Aizen-sama, a genius and the owner of a Kyoka Suigetsu. all other are doomed, unless they are yamamoto.

btw, can anyone explain what makes a captain so-called "high-tier"? age, strength or what?
[hr]


A character like shunsui, Uki or Aizen will have no problem moving backwards if they have time to think.

it's not only backwards dude, it's left and right, up and down. pretty deep shit. I don't think that anyone (except for Aizen or Yamamoto) could survive in conditions like that. they might be able to hold off for a couple of minutes but not much longer

Lunatic Scream
April 20, 2010, 10:07 AM
it's not only backwards dude, it's left and right, up and down. pretty deep shit. I don't think that anyone (except for Aizen or Yamamoto) could survive in conditions like that. they might be able to hold off for a couple of minutes but not much longer

Sakanade's good, yeah. Someone like Yama would be able to handle it. I doubt he cares what direction is what when he can just burninate the entire field of battle. So, likewise, anyone with a really massive scale attack could keep Shinji at bay while Sakanade was in effect. Shinji gains no direct power from his shikai (though admittedly that makes his Vaizard mask a good match with it), so he's fighting unreleased against a disoriented opponent, basically.

Hitsugaya has a full 360 defense with his wings, I know people tend to not like him, but the wide scale of his attacks (the one he used against Halibel would be difficult to avoid no matter where you are) would be an effective counter.
(Spoiler's wildly offtopic. Sakanade's powers are blatant hax (much like Shunsui's), but can't you just beat it by plugging your nose?)

Anyways, fact of the matter is, I doubt we'll ever see Shunsui go lawligagging into a 1v1 duel. If you wanna go all fantasy and say Shunsui vs. Shinji, you can bet your ass Shunsui'd stab Shinji from the shadows while he was on the crapper. That's just the way he fights when it's a serious battle. (Chances are, it'll never be, between those two. Shunsui has one of the closest ties to the Vaizards... Lisa)

Raizen
April 20, 2010, 10:59 AM
how? and i said maybe you can reitsu stomp your way out but do you really think shunsui could reitsu stomp shinji? shinji's shikai is hax all he needs to do is stand there firing cero while his enemies get burnt to a crisp working out whats going on. the only reson aizan can get out is because his zanpakuto controls more than shinjis.
No i don't think that shunsui can use reiatsu to counter shinji, but shunsui has shown to be very perceptive in his fighting abilities. Saying things like only Aizen can counter it is complete BS since shinji has only fought one person. I can easily say that only starks can figure out shunsui's games just the same, see what i did

And if shinji could ahve just fired cero, he would have done so against Aizen. Firing a cero, it doesn't matter what direction you move, if u move you can dodge it. You can think you are moving left but you move right, either way, you got out of the way. And shinji isn't like starkks, he can't fire off multiple ceros.

AlB
April 20, 2010, 11:10 AM
No i don't think that shunsui can use reiatsu to counter shinji, but shunsui has shown to be very perceptive in his fighting abilities. Saying things like only Aizen can counter it is complete BS since shinji has only fought one person. I can easily say that only starks can figure out shunsui's games just the same, see what i did

shinji's abilities and Shunsui's abilities are not the same thing you know, so what you did, is make the most inappropriate comparison. it's not about figuring out, it's about fighting. stark figured out shunsui, but couldn't fight him, and got killed. same with shinji, you can figure out his abilities with the first glance, I mean it's so obvious once you see the guy upside dows, but there's no way in hell you can fight him. Aizen probably KS-ed him and watched him fight thin air, while he was standing aside and preparing to make a precise move. I respect Shunsui in every possible way, I consider him one of the strongest, smartes but that doesn't change the fact that he would fall against shinji in 1 vs 1 fight. so, main point is, that it's not about figuring out Shinji's abilities, it's about countering, adjusting, fighting them, which is impossible.

P.S. guys, maybe we should transfer to "Shinji vs Shunsui" thread? :)

Raizen
April 20, 2010, 11:41 AM
shinji's abilities and Shunsui's abilities are not the same thing you know, so what you did, is make the most inappropriate comparison. it's not about figuring out, it's about fighting. stark figured out shunsui, but couldn't fight him, and got killed. same with shinji, you can figure out his abilities with the first glance, I mean it's so obvious once you see the guy upside dows, but there's no way in hell you can fight him. Aizen probably KS-ed him and watched him fight thin air, while he was standing aside and preparing to make a precise move. I respect Shunsui in every possible way, I consider him one of the strongest, smartes but that doesn't change the fact that he would fall against shinji in 1 vs 1 fight. so, main point is, that it's not about figuring out Shinji's abilities, it's about countering, adjusting, fighting them, which is impossible.

P.S. guys, maybe we should transfer to "Shinji vs Shunsui" thread? :)
You didn't get what i meant. I meant that we have only seen KG used against starks and we have only seen sakanade against aizen. If we can assume that only aizen can counter sakanade then we can just as easily assume that only starks can figure out KG's rules. But we know that that is not correct. hence saying only aizen can counter sakanade is also incorrect. But that is off-topic. Believe what you want

Thing is shunsui and uki are not overrated. Why? b/c shunsui took on unreleased starks with not even shikai whule ichigo w/ bankai and mask had trouble against unreleased grimjow and ulqui. Shinji w/ mask couldn't kill unreleased injured one arm grimjow. The feats speak for themselves

AlB
April 20, 2010, 11:59 AM
You didn't get what i meant. I meant that we have only seen KG used against starks and we have only seen sakanade against aizen. If we can assume that only aizen can counter sakanade then we can just as easily assume that only starks can figure out KG's rules. But we know that that is not correct. hence saying only aizen can counter sakanade is also incorrect. But that is off-topic. Believe what you want

Thing is shunsui and uki are not overrated. Why? b/c shunsui took on unreleased starks with not even shikai whule ichigo w/ bankai and mask had trouble against unreleased grimjow and ulqui. Shinji w/ mask couldn't kill unreleased injured one arm grimjow. The feats speak for themselves

if you read my previous posts you will find out that I never believed that Shunsui is overrated :)

the one who is overrated is Ukitake, I have already explained a reason for that and I don't feel like explaining again, just too lazy :)

Raizen
April 20, 2010, 12:14 PM
Uki's performance was lacking b/c the author had to find some way to get him out of the way. He is most likely saving uki for later. I kind of feel cheated that the author did that. But also note that the combination of shunsui and uki was considered to be exceedingly dangerous, so maybe by taking uki out it destroyed the chances that it can be used against aizen. Either way, i have faith in uki. after all, he is inferred to be just as skilled as shunsui

Yans86
April 20, 2010, 02:44 PM
Ukitake making more difference then 10 capt. lvl fighter.....for the lolZ

hakuthehedgehog
April 20, 2010, 03:01 PM
A fresh Ukitake could indeed make a significant difference on how the Gotei could take on Aizen, specially since he and Shunsui whould most likely ownstomp Starrk so bad that none of them whould get significantly injured.

Yans86
April 20, 2010, 03:48 PM
In what dream??What would have Ukitake bring to battle against Aizen??he is slow as hell,he has TB,he like to stare at people like Ichigo,he wouldn't touch Aizen even in another 1000 years!!
Damn,Kyouraku didn't land a single hit on both Aizen and Starks and only with a sneak attack could heavily injure him (well,Hisagi did it better thought against a stronger opponent).Coming up with this kind of things just for hype isn't a way to back up an argument...

Raizen
April 20, 2010, 05:00 PM
Ukitake making more difference then 10 capt. lvl fighter.....for the lolZ
Your logic fails b/c uki's and shunsui's zanpaktou are meant to fight together. They go hand in hand. So together their strength raises exponentially. That much is fact. It is already stated they complement one another.

Right now we can't really judge uki b/c the plot screwed him over. But we can judge shunsui and shunsui is without a doubt a top class shinigami

Oathencrantz
April 20, 2010, 05:20 PM
why should he be not affected by Sakanade? :blink wow, people on forums sure like to spout nonsense, be it Tobi=Obito=Danzo, Isshin being King and now this lolz. anyway, maybe Shunsui is stronger captain than Shinji, but once he is affected by Sakanade it's all over. the only reason Aizen was able to adjust to the shit that Sakanade creates was that he is Aizen-sama, a genius and the owner of a Kyoka Suigetsu. all other are doomed, unless they are yamamoto.

btw, can anyone explain what makes a captain so-called "high-tier"? age, strength or what?
<hr noshade size="1">


it's not only backwards dude, it's left and right, up and down. pretty deep shit. I don't think that anyone (except for Aizen or Yamamoto) could survive in conditions like that. they might be able to hold off for a couple of minutes but not much longer

Sakanade is indeed very hax and it indeed will work against Yamamoto, but what do you do against someone who can literally just flame everywhere around him on a large scale? Then there's a chance of reiatsu nullification or the more tedious 'getting accustomed' to the new setting of your nervous system (Kabuto Yakushi, you're indeed a genius). Yamamoto's just on a different planet to these guys, there's too much beast in him. AoE guys, i.e. Hitsugaya, Byakuya, etc etc, are much more built for these fucked up settings. Btw, I'm not actually disagreeing with anything you've said, I just thought I'd add my 2 cents to support your idea.

Hystzen
April 20, 2010, 05:25 PM
if kubo didnt ruin uki and let him fight with shunsui yes starrk would be beat wayyy quicker but as for aizen they still would of got screwed over by histu exposing every1 when he got annoyed the stupid kid.
shunusi is high tier no denying that as for uki we only got yammas word or maybe starrk when he said ukis ablity was dangerous that it so far he doesnt have evidence to back up his power which is a shame i like the guy

Gran Maestro
April 20, 2010, 06:40 PM
Your logic fails b/c uki's and shunsui's zanpaktou are meant to fight together. They go hand in hand. So together their strength raises exponentially. That much is fact. It is already stated they complement one another.

We don't know Ukitake's full abilities yet but some abilities may indeed complement each other perfectly. For example, suppose that I have a zanpakuto which instantly changes the color of skin/clothes on myself and others. It's completely useless by itself but me & Shunsui would be a lethal duo, much more powerful than sum of our individual powers.

More fighters don't always mean stronger force: Shunsui & Ukitake may perform much better against Yamaji than Shunsui, Ukitake & Nanao because of Shunsui's concern about Nanao's well-being in the fight. Hitsugaya has become more a liability than an asset against Aizen, this is why they lost more quickly.

DEATHBOTT
April 20, 2010, 11:47 PM
shunsui imo deserves the most praise out of any good guy in this manga not for his skill or strength but for double teaming and sneak attacking becaue this war would be over if all the captains esspecially yama did that from the start. that being said they are all still stupid for not all releaseing bankai as soon a those side ways sky vaginas opened and going to town. just saying.

freshseth83
April 21, 2010, 12:35 AM
the thing is, Shunsui didn't play unfairly against Stark. He was told otherwise by Ukitake. He told Shunsui that he wouldn't hear it that they weren't playing fair against him because they were essentially two parts to Stark, that is Lillinette. Now it was even- Stark and Lilly vs. Shunsui and Juushiro. Thing is, even after Ukitake got impaled from behind by ww and shunsui take a cero directly to the back from the most powerful espada there was, he wasn't even hurt. He got back up without so much as a scratch where he was shot at. Even Lisa-chan made fun of him for playing dead. I'm a believer that if it were an unbiased fight between captains, Shunsui would come out on top of everyone. All he has to do is hide in the shadows and attack accordingly. If that doesn't work, all he has to do is call out pink and he'd beat Byakuya if he used Senbonzakura as protection. There'd be no way to stop Shunsui if he hid in the shadows, no one would be able to tell where he was. In my opinion he could have done this to Aizen but it was an Illusion. In fact he wasn't even startled that they didn't beat him when they thought. Only Hitsugaya got pissed off and charged like a dummy. It looked to me like Shunsui Soi-Fon and Shinji were all preparing for another attack. We seen how good they worked together. Imagine how good he would work together with Juushiro. They are said to be above everyone else in terms of combat when they're together. This is probably why WW was ordered to take out Ukitake, so Shunsui and him couldnt team together to beat mr. Illusion

Yans86
April 21, 2010, 06:06 AM
Your logic fails b/c uki's and shunsui's zanpaktou are meant to fight together. They go hand in hand. So together their strength raises exponentially. That much is fact. It is already stated they complement one another.

Right now we can't really judge uki b/c the plot screwed him over. But we can judge shunsui and shunsui is without a doubt a top class shinigami

Where did u get the raise exponentially???
And sorry,how many captains have we seen fighting as a pair??most of them doesn't even know what kind of bankai the others have....
And again,what kind of opponent would they team up against???others captain???lame......menos and adjuchas???lame,but u get a point here,their powers would be useful seeing that they would counter ceros whle slashing in saying black and white all the time.....VL???one may be above any single captain,but against 2 captain any of them can be defeated.....

So what is this supposed strenght of the duo???
And sorry,even in 2 they couldn't hit Stark,it took 4 person to catch him off guard.....
And seriously all this Shunsui has beaten STark with just shikai watching only at the small picture and not at the big picture is totally lame,in the end in the same way(from playing possum, to sneak behind a distracted opponent,to kill him with an unreleased/released weapon) Hisagi killed Tousen which is above Stark...oh well,Hisagi was even heavily injured...
Do people consider Hisagi a monster for this? no......because he doesn't have all the fanboyism that Shunsui has.....

People always look at the small picture here just to back up a truth that is never the entirety of the truth....it might be convenient but surely it's not what mature persons does...

poobert
April 21, 2010, 06:32 AM
Where did u get the raise exponentially???
And sorry,how many captains have we seen fighting as a pair??most of them doesn't even know what kind of bankai the others have....
And again,what kind of opponent would they team up against???others captain???lame......menos and adjuchas???lame,but u get a point here,their powers would be useful seeing that they would counter ceros whle slashing in saying black and white all the time.....VL???one may be above any single captain,but against 2 captain any of them can be defeated......

http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/155/09/
http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/155/10/

Their power is written as plain as day. Yama says Uki is stronger than everyone else. How can you argue anything other than the technicalities.

Yans86
April 21, 2010, 08:05 AM
Small picture.....if Aizen revealed his true strenght,no captain would have stand in front of him.
If Aizen make a duo with Gin,their power works complementary good and no couple would stand against them.
If SHinji teams up with anyone,everyone would die before even understanding what would happen...
If Tousen team up with everyone...
And I can keep on...

Shunsui and Ukitake are the only 2 that work as a team,so it's obvious that this kind of strenght stand above others for all the reason I have explained....

About Ukitake...well,he lived long cause he has always someone saving his a** and rarely went to action due to his illness.
An example??Rukia saved his a**.......not saying that he got pwned by WW that was faster then his reaction,damn even Shunsui and OldYama were shocked...
(And don't give me the talk...he doesn't fight kids,cause is not a valid argument to let someone impale u to death).

Also,if they lived for so long,why did they never been promoted to RG???strong but not enough I guess....
A strenght above the rest of the mass is one thing.Them being the strongest captains in the history of SS since the academy foundation or even before that is a totally different matter....being above average is totally different from this point...
And well,OldYama still refers to shinigami in SS and not other beings like arrancars / Vl / RG....

Don't limit your reasoning at the small picture because it's pointless..

Raizen
April 21, 2010, 01:07 PM
^ So let me sum up your whole point- You basically went against the facts presented by the manga since you can't accept it. What a weak argument :notrust

Shunsui and uki are plenty strong even w/o their teamwork. That was made clear when yama stated that their strength were always a cut above the rest.
The teamwork is just icing on the cake.

Aizen revealing his true strength? The aizen that is getting owned now b/c he is fighting someone not under his illusion? The same aizen that needed the distraction created by hitsu to get a hit in on shunsui even though shunsui is under KS's influence. Aizen's onl advantage was that he had all of SS under hypnosis from the start. Had he fought with someone like uki, shunsui, unohana, or yama w/o them being hypnotized first, he would be in trouble

poopoomaru
April 21, 2010, 02:22 PM
As long as Shunsui was under KS's influence, the opening is frankly irrelavant. I agree that Shunsui isn't overrated, but saying he Aizen only landed a shot because of Hitsugaya's distraction is underrating Aizen. Had Shunsui not made the mistake of letting his guard down, which is his mistake and not something you can blame on someone else, at that moment with Aizen's illusions it simply would have happened at a different time.

Also, we can't underrate Aizen because he uses his illusions to beat his opponents, the illusions are part of his power. The better argument is to say how limited his illusions are if it is as easy as Isshin is making it seem to not see the release of his zanpakuto. Or perhaps how limited the illusions themselves are as a battle tactic against a singular opponent.

Raizen
April 21, 2010, 02:24 PM
All i was saying is that in regards to Aizen, had they not been under the influence of KS from the start, it woould have been different since it seems using KS in battle seems to be nearly impossible

Lunatic Scream
April 22, 2010, 11:46 AM
All i was saying is that in regards to Aizen, had they not been under the influence of KS from the start, it woould have been different since it seems using KS in battle seems to be nearly impossible

That bugs the hell out of me. Aizen was able to catch Barragan in hypnosis very easily in a short matter of time. You're telling me that Ichigo (who can't even follow Aizen's movements) and Isshin have been fighting him without looking at his sword, and doing it so quickly that he couldn't utter the words "Kyouka Suigetsu"?

I do think that Aizen isn't leagues above everyone else in this story. Whether or not this is the case will depend on Isshin's actual relative strength to everyone else. If he pops up and calls Unohana or Shunsui "senpai" when he sees them, you can bet your ass KS was the reason for Aizen's potency in combat.

En Yang Ji
April 23, 2010, 09:15 AM
Shunsui and Ukitake are definitely overrated by their fans. Aizen would beat Shunsui, if it was a 1 on 1 battle without shikai's. Haven't seen Ukitake do much, but if he's the same level as Shunsui, Aizen's likely to beat him just as fast.

En Yang Ji
April 23, 2010, 09:57 AM
@Cloudo: Huh?

Your not making much sense dude. How do you figure Shunsui can beat Aizen because Isshin can? There's the possibility Isshin is just stronger than Shunsui and that's why he can beat Aizen.

Why do you think the Hougyoku increased Aizen's speed? Nobody implied that.

cloudo
April 23, 2010, 11:05 AM
@Cloudo: Huh?

Your not making much sense dude. How do you figure Shunsui can beat Aizen because Isshin can? There's the possibility Isshin is just stronger than Shunsui and that's why he can beat Aizen.

Why do you think the Hougyoku increased Aizen's speed? Nobody implied that.

no1 has to imply the truth because the hogyoku made everyones wishes and desires it came into close contact with true so if aizens wish was to become a god then why wouldnt it increase that? besides he has now reached the limit of a shinigami meaning while he was fighting the captains including shunsui his speed and reiatsu increased exponantially. I never said because isshin can beat aizen shunsui can... I said Shunsui was the highest ranked captain by yamamoto in all of SS history so why wouldnt he be able to pose a threat to aizen? did u not see him impale stark and aizen even though that was an illusion? Yep thats what i thought so Im right your not wrong your just not right :p

hakuthehedgehog
April 23, 2010, 11:06 AM
I like Shunsui, but saying that he would beat Aizen if he didn't have KS is just stupid.
Aizen is a guy that owned 4 captain class oponents without even using his shikai in a matter of seconds.
In case you are forgotten, Aizen easily blocked/dodged all attemps on Shunsui's attacks without his Shikai, except the one with the help of Hitsugaya.
But, Shunsui + ukitake vs Aizen, without Shikai, Hogyoku and no disease for Ukitake, I guess that they would have a significant chance at beating him IMO.

@Cloudo, while the Hogyoku grants it's users wishes, it didn't increase Aizen's speed or power in any away, otherwise he wouldn't have said that he reached the limit of his shinigami self(which he had already reached) and only against Isshin is when it understtod Aizen's will and started to transform him, also, when Shunsui hit Aizen, he was using his Shikai, if you want to make it fair, take the shikai from both of them.

kkck
April 23, 2010, 11:08 AM
no1 has to imply the truth because the hogyoku made everyones wishes and desires it came into close contact with true so if aizens wish was to become a god then why wouldnt it increase that? besides he has now reached the limit of a shinigami meaning while he was fighting the captains including shunsui his speed and reiatsu increased exponantially. I never said because isshin can beat aizen shunsui can... I said Shunsui was the highest ranked captain by yamamoto in all of SS history so why wouldnt he be able to pose a threat to aizen? did u not see him impale stark and aizen even though that was an illusion? Yep thats what i thought so Im right your not wrong your just not right :p

The orb does have limits, it is not a magical genie. Aizen won't be turned into something inherently beyond his limits.

cloudo
April 23, 2010, 11:12 AM
The orb does have limits, it is not a magical genie. Aizen won't be turned into something inherently beyond his limits.

but yet thats whats happening isn't it? hes being affected by the hogyoku, and since it made all those arrancar/espada so powerful at least that much more powerful than they were before thn why wouldnt it do the same for aizen who is now one with it? i dont think aizen would be able to beat shunsui without KS or the hogyoku thats all im sayin

En Yang Ji
April 23, 2010, 11:18 AM
but yet thats whats happening isn't it? hes being affected by the hogyoku, and since it made all those arrancar/espada so powerful at least that much more powerful than they were before thn why wouldnt it do the same for aizen who is now one with it? i dont think aizen would be able to beat shunsui without KS or the hogyoku thats all im sayin

Hougyoku most likely didn't increase Aizen's abilities. The Hougyoku is only just now starting to understand Aizen's heart. For it to do anything for anyone, it has to understand what that person wants first.

kkck
April 23, 2010, 11:28 AM
but yet thats whats happening isn't it? hes being affected by the hogyoku, and since it made all those arrancar/espada so powerful at least that much more powerful than they were before thn why wouldnt it do the same for aizen who is now one with it? i dont think aizen would be able to beat shunsui without KS or the hogyoku thats all im sayin

Aizen has show beyond captain class power before the orb though. Just to name a few.
Utterly speedblitz hitsugaya from the from without using an illusion.
http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/170/23/

Trash komamura with a failed kido
http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/176/12/
This speaks VOLUMES of the sheer amount of raw power aizen has. A failed kido without an incantation which did not even reach a third of its intended power is already enough to take a captain out of commision. granted aizen did use his illusion to make an opening. Even yamamoto with a fully functional spell which cost him his arm and probably his life did not do this much damage -granted aizen was healed by the orb shortly after the hit-.

Grimmjow is a captain level guy and he still got grounded by aizen's sheer reiatsu
http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/245/10/
Even if grimmjow wasn't the top espada he is still someone a captain would have trouble defeating. Luppi did give hitsugaya some trouble and it is quite clear grimmjow was much stronger than him.

Then we have aizen stopping ichigo's bankai barehanded and taking wave after wave of captain level attacks without breaking a sweat and being able to react to hirako's shikai. Aizen's physical capacities and reiatsu are clearly much greater than any captain except yamamoto.

cloudo
April 23, 2010, 11:28 AM
Hougyoku most likely didn't increase Aizen's abilities. The Hougyoku is only just now starting to understand Aizen's heart. For it to do anything for anyone, it has to understand what that person wants first.

no its been doin a lotta shit for him u think hes been sittin around in hueco mundo doing nothin just creating espada? bullshit... hes been increasing his own abilities to counter everyone elses abilities in SS...

cloudo
April 23, 2010, 11:39 AM
Aizen has show beyond captain class power before the orb though. Just to name a few.
Utterly speedblitz hitsugaya from the from without using an illusion.
http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/170/23/

Trash komamura with a failed kido
http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/176/12/
This speaks VOLUMES of the sheer amount of raw power aizen has. A failed kido without an incantation which did not even reach a third of its intended power is already enough to take a captain out of commision. granted aizen did use his illusion to make an opening. Even yamamoto with a fully functional spell which cost him his arm and probably his life did not do this much damage -granted aizen was healed by the orb shortly after the hit-.

Grimmjow is a captain level guy and he still got grounded by aizen's sheer reiatsu
http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/245/10/
Even if grimmjow wasn't the top espada he is still someone a captain would have trouble defeating. Luppi did give hitsugaya some trouble and it is quite clear grimmjow was much stronger than him.

Then we have aizen stopping ichigo's bankai barehanded and taking wave after wave of captain level attacks without breaking a sweat and being able to react to hirako's shikai. Aizen's physical capacities and reiatsu are clearly much greater than any captain except yamamoto.


thats a good speech there but whos to say shunsui or ukitake couldnt do that? im sure they could both stop ichigos bankai with just a finger. and even when he did all that the hogyoku was inside of him, he just kept it hidden then said suprise this why nothin is affecting me duh. you forget those captains u just mentioned are shit, they couldnt even beat tousen when he had his mask on... but how did his vice captain manage to beat him when he was ressureccion just in shikai? the reiatsu of those captains arent on par with ichigos... so of course aizen spanked them. sure he cut down hitsugaya and shunsui soi fon and whoever else was in his way but he DID have the orb attached to his persona when this allhappened... correct? so just because you think it didnt have any effect doesnt mean it didnt... in fact it did. isshin isnt MORE powerful than any other shinigami under yama... maybe on par with shunsui and ukitake but given that aizen was overwhelmed from takin that hit from yamas kido blast and isshin not being under the influence of KS he obviously would have the upper hand. So lets put shunsui in isshins position, would it not be the same outcome? of course it would... KS is complete hynosis u can see and be whatever it wants.. so of course its gonna make everyone who has already fought weaker... shunsui just got a few huge blows from the #1 espada so hes not up to par with anyone near aizen but if he were to go at him one on one i think hed stand a chance

kkck
April 23, 2010, 11:46 AM
thats a good speech there but whos to say shunsui or ukitake couldnt do that? im sure they could both stop ichigos bankai with just a finger. and even when he did all that the hogyoku was inside of him, he just kept it hidden then said suprise this why nothin is affecting me duh. you forget those captains u just mentioned are shit, they couldnt even beat tousen when he had his mask on... but how did his vice captain manage to beat him when he was ressureccion just in shikai? the reiatsu of those captains arent on par with ichigos... so of course aizen spanked them. sure he cut down hitsugaya and shunsui soi fon and whoever else was in his way but he DID have the orb attached to his persona when this allhappened... correct? so just because you think it didnt have any effect doesnt mean it didnt... in fact it did. isshin isnt MORE powerful than any other shinigami under yama... maybe on par with shunsui and ukitake but given that aizen was overwhelmed from takin that hit from yamas kido blast and isshin not being under the influence of KS he obviously would have the upper hand. So lets put shunsui in isshins position, would it not be the same outcome? of course it would... KS is complete hynosis u can see and be whatever it wants.. so of course its gonna make everyone who has already fought weaker... shunsui just got a few huge blows from the #1 espada so hes not up to par with anyone near aizen but if he were to go at him one on one i think hed stand a chance

What makes you think the orb actually gave him a boost in power though? I think that is quite a big assumption to make with little to no evidence to support that. Before we saw the orb actuall required power for it to work so for all we know it actually had a taxing effect on him -it certainly did not replenish his stamina otherise he would never get tired and him reaching a limit would be altogether impossible-. And how do you know what ishin's power level is? The manga already rarely elaborates on power levels and here you are pretending you know how strong exactly ishin is lol. Aizen managed to stop ichigo's hollow form easily while he was still healing, I would think he still had quite a bit of power above the captain level.

En Yang Ji
April 23, 2010, 12:14 PM
no its been doin a lotta shit for him u think hes been sittin around in hueco mundo doing nothin just creating espada? bullshit... hes been increasing his own abilities to counter everyone elses abilities in SS...

Aizen never had to wish for more speed and strength. He had KS, WW, Tousen, Gin and the top 3 Espada.

Also Aizen reached the limit of his shinigami abilities. Hougyoku is a power that guides. It's not capable of doing things for people that, they themselves aren't capable of. The only way the Hougyoku could increase Aizen's power is by increasing his limits. The only known ways to do that is to destroy the barrier between a shinigami and a hollow and reconstructing his soul (like what the Hougyoku's is doing right now). The Hougyoku just started turning Aizen into the ultimate being so he couldn't of had a power increase before than.

kangclaw
April 23, 2010, 03:38 PM
I think that Shinsui and Ukitake are one of the top Captains of the G13. Yama stated complemented them. There is no hard evidence stating which Captains is the strongest except Yama, who is the leader of the G13.
http://beta.onemanga.com/Bleach/394/07/

Just a side note about Shinigami fights:
http://beta.onemanga.com/Bleach/391/15/
Aizen statement about Shinigami fights.

Lunatic Scream
April 23, 2010, 04:55 PM
I like Shunsui, but saying that he would beat Aizen if he didn't have KS is just stupid.
Aizen is a guy that owned 4 captain class oponents without even using his shikai in a matter of seconds.
In case you are forgotten, Aizen easily blocked/dodged all attemps on Shunsui's attacks without his Shikai, except the one with the help of Hitsugaya.
But, Shunsui + ukitake vs Aizen, without Shikai, Hogyoku and no disease for Ukitake, I guess that they would have a significant chance at beating him IMO.


Would beat Aizen? No, but I don't think it would be an Aizen roflstomp. He might actually have a chance. Sure Aizen owned 4 captain class opponents (I assume you're referring to Love, Komamura, Rose, etc... because he used KS to cut down Hitsugaya, Shinji, Shunsui, and Soifon), but from what we've seen, the phrase "captain class" is pretty much the widest range of power in this series.

For example: Komamura is captain-class. Isshin is captain-class. Aizen could cut down 4 Komamuras, he can't even handle one Isshin. Maybe Kubo should introduce another phrase to indicate shinigami strength..

hakuthehedgehog
April 23, 2010, 06:00 PM
Aizen outclasses Shunsui in every aspect we've seen so far: power, reiatsu, speed and Kido usage, so there is no way in hell that Shunsui (no shikai) could beat Aizen (no shikai)

Raizen
April 23, 2010, 06:51 PM
Saying that Aizen outclasses shunsui in every aspect is grasping at straws. I am not saying that shunsui can beat Aizen if he was not under teh illusions, but i am saying that there is quite a chance. We can't really compare shunsui fairly b/c he was never able to give a full fight against aizen b/c everything was an illusion.

How can you say aizen is better than shunsui at this and that when it comes to KS, nothing is what it seems.

Aizen is strong no doubt. But so are the senior captains. But aizen has the advantage b/c they are already under his spell. Even then, he needed an opening to take shunsui down.

Shunsui and uki are not overrated whatsoever. The manga has shown that they are worthy of the statements yama has made for them

Yans86
April 24, 2010, 07:04 AM
Grasping at straws??if he was as strong as Aizen with all those captains they would have won in 3 seconds...but indeed he didn't make a difference!!!
Speed:he never touched him...and even Stark is faster then him.
Power:He was momentarily koed by a cero and had

He needed an opening??lol Who's the idiot that tried to save Hitsugaya knowing that he would get pwned??It's his fault for not keeping his cool.....this is war as someone said,even Soifon said that u have to atack your enemy from behind even i u see ur comrade fall....come on!!!!

And well,let's explain the concept above the rest with a simple example:
_If the average I.Q. of the population is 100,having an I.Q. of 120 is BEING a cut above the others,and u will always be because it's not like your I.Q. will fall.
_At the same time,there still can others with an I.Q. of 130,140,150,160 that still won't deny the fact that having 120 is being a cut above the rest.

And seriously,do u think that Aizen,Old Yama,Isshin,Urahara,Gin and Yoruichi would look at WW and get impaled without even acknowledging it???
Ukitake is by far the most overrated character!!!!!!!!

Shunsui is strong,a cut above the average captain,but he is not a genius or a monster or a god like fighter.Damn,he was a captain for how many years???more then 200 hundred at least,right???Hitsugaya will take around 100 year to reach and surpass his power......do u see the difference??and well,this won't change the fact that Shunsui would still remain a cut above the others.....

Hystzen
April 24, 2010, 07:09 AM
the kido aizen did to koma was strong but look a few panels koma got up and refused treatment and was wounded but it didnt put him out of commision...and koma also fought aizen in FKT with a huge hole in his stomach so give koma some slack...he is the saying 'cant keep a good dog down' :P.

shunsui good do well against aizen without ks but would still lose just last longer aizen i think has alot of raw power and uses KS coz he kinda lazy and cocky. ukitake can be judged i think we not seen enough as kubo likes making him useless.

Raizen
April 25, 2010, 12:52 PM
People here are judging shunsui fight with aizen on the fact that aizen dodged one attack and put up a barrier on the other. Well guess what, the barrier actually cracked. Furthermore, isshin took a surprised hit on aizen and he dodged easily too. So by your logic, isshin should be weak against against and yet isshin is kicking his ass :notrust

poopoomaru
April 26, 2010, 04:27 AM
The only thing I think the Hougyouku has been doing for Aizen has been healing him physically. Principally I think his rapid recovery from Hadou #96. Other then that it has been all him. He hasn't shown anything in this war that I wouldn't have imagined him capable of from what we saw when he escaped Soul Society.

thornofcarrion
April 26, 2010, 04:57 AM
I will agree with Raizen a bit. So far, I don't think we can accurately gauge how strong Ukitake and Shunui really are. Their little showing against Aizen is not indicative of their real strength. Since everyone struggled against Aizen's KS, it does not make them necessarily a weak or over-rated character.

Raizen
April 26, 2010, 12:14 PM
EXACTLY!! We saw shunsui's powers against starks and it was clear that he was as strong as yama stated. We can't count the encounter w/ aizen b/c they have the greatest disadvantage against him

Yans86
April 26, 2010, 01:21 PM
Well Raizen,if for u It's a great thing to defeat a natural adjuchas arrancar that wasn't even the stronger of his army,with a sneak attack that even a VC could pull out on a hybridizated distracted captain,then stick with it....but we all know what this means....http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/397/13/

Gran Maestro
April 27, 2010, 04:44 AM
I'll quote myself because I guess it's also relevant in this thread:


I don't understand what kind of people fail to see the huge difference between these two cases:

1) Hisagi managed to stab Tousen because of his newfound eyesight. Shunsui managed to stab Stark because he had an incredible ability which Stark gave credit for.

2) Hisagi's attack finished Tousen in one move. Shunsui's attack was a welcome-back shot.

3) The kageoni hit didn't do much damage to Stark because he actually played the color game, kept up with Shunsui and managed to do max damage for him in the game. If Stark's max damage in color game didn't finish Shunsui, why are we supposed to believe Shunsui's shadow attack reduced Stark to nothingness as if Stark was dominating Shunsui in sword-fight before that attack?

Long story short, comparing Shunsui's case with Hisagi's is a logical failure and a trivial attempt that shows how far somebody can go to twist the facts to suit his/her opinions. I would be embarrassed to make such a comparison but I guess some people have no shame.

Let's not be so shallow, guys. You're better than that, at least I hope so. You may not like someone but always give credit when it's due.

Yans86
April 27, 2010, 06:34 AM
1)Hisagi managed to attack Tousen from behind even prior his resurrection form to begin with.He pulled it 2 times in the end...and well,Stark was fighting 2 enemies when he was attacked from behind,how can u keep ignoring this???

2)Hisagi attack was indeed more effective then Shunsui's...
Welcome back shot???sarcasm,isn't it??Stark dodged easily the second Kageoni attack to begin with because he was aware of him.And well,beside that he was heavily bleeding for being pierced in the chest,and started to sweat hard for the pain....FACT.Kageoni was EFFECTIVE...

3)Being pierced in the chest doesn't deal much damage when all Shunsui game enhance the damage of his blow???How can u negate his power like this???
And well,Irooni came after,when Shunsui said "irooni grey"...
Stark attack didn't finish Shunsui because Stark wasn't fully wearing WHITE.
Shunsui attack finished Stark because he was FULLY wearing BLACK(he didn't have his haori)....everyoner knows it!!!
And well,before that attack,STark didn't receive a single hit from Shunsui and easily counter all his moves even when Ukitake joined......after getting stabbed in the chest he became slower and they started to hit each other at close range.

You r right indeed,we should not be shallow......TY

Gran Maestro
April 27, 2010, 07:00 AM
1)Hisagi managed to attack Tousen from behind even prior his resurrection form to begin with.He pulled it 2 times in the end...and well,Stark was fighting 2 enemies when he was attacked from behind,how can u keep ignoring this???

Hisagi himself said he couldn't finish him like that if Tousen didn't acquire eyesight.


2)Hisagi attack was indeed more effective then Shunsui's...
Welcome back shot???sarcasm,isn't it??Stark dodged easily the second Kageoni attack to begin with because he was aware of him.And well,beside that he was heavily bleeding for being pierced in the chest,and started to sweat hard for the pain....FACT.Kageoni was EFFECTIVE...

Yep, welcome-back shot. "You shot me when I was attacking WW, Stark. It's payback time. The real game starts now." Kageoni was not as effective as you think because Stark successfully played the color game.


3)Being pierced in the chest doesn't deal much damage when all Shunsui game enhance the damage of his blow???How can u negate his power like this???
And well,Irooni came after,when Shunsui said "irooni grey"...
Stark attack didn't finish Shunsui because Stark wasn't fully wearing WHITE.
Shunsui attack finished Stark because he was FULLY wearing BLACK(he didn't have his haori)....everyoner knows it!!!
And well,before that attack,STark didn't receive a single hit from Shunsui and easily counter all his moves even when Ukitake joined......after getting stabbed in the chest he became slower and they started to hit each other at close range.

See the analysis. (http://mangahelpers.com/forum/showthread.php?p=1896749#post1896749) Shunsui hadn't received a noteworthy hit from Stark before the color game, your point is moot.

Raizen
April 27, 2010, 10:54 AM
Well Raizen,if for u It's a great thing to defeat a natural adjuchas arrancar that wasn't even the stronger of his army,with a sneak attack that even a VC could pull out on a hybridizated distracted captain,then stick with it....but we all know what this means....http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/397/13/
You are assuming things to get your point accross and that is just sad. Nothing stated that starks was just an adjuchas. He was so strong that just being around other hollows, he killed them unintentionally. Starks was teh #1 espada. how was he not strong?

You are focusing only on the sneak attack. In that fight, both shunsui and starks used sneak attack. that is fine b/c those attacks didn't finish either of them. That was not the case w/ hisagi. He finished the fight w/ one attack, so there was no 1-on-1 fair quarrel. W/ shunsui there was. Shunsui beat starks in a true fight. That is the difference. If you can't see that then that is really too bad for you

thornofcarrion
April 27, 2010, 11:10 AM
Please do not try to flame/bait/bash others or their opinions.The thread is about Shunsui and Ukitake being overrated or not? Hisagi vs. Tousen discussion is off-topic and will be deleted if it continues.

Gran Maestro
April 27, 2010, 11:34 AM
Back on topic. Quevache from BA forums made an analysis of what Yamamoto said (http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/155/10/) about Shunsui and Ukitake upon my request. Thanks to him for all his efforts, it seems the translation was indeed a hard one. I'll put spoiler tags because it's kinda long.


ANALYSES OF CONTENTIOUS DATA 5
The Prodig(i)al "Sons" - BLEACH 155 "Redoundable deeds/Redoubtable babies" pg. 10

Soshite hitotabi tatakai to nare ba sono chikara taru ya chouitsu zetsujin
Douhai nimo sendatsu nimo narabumono-nashi

And once it came to battle, that power was surpassing, breaking from the dust of earth.
No peers, nor rivals; without equal.



BREAKDOWN
This new "demo" section will provide a more lit. breakdown of the Japanese passage (as I mentioned in posts above), to better inform people on what was actually present therein, and what words were my own insertions to make the English translation grammatically sensible in English.

Where I can, I'll try to incorporate the traditional categories of Japanese grammatical moods etc., but I should probably devote a post by itself to these for better review, when I have the time. Again, I'm no pro, but I'll endeavor to be as thorough and accurate as possible in all matters... sorry if I FAIL hard.

Elements already broken down will not be repeated, e.g. if the word tatakai "battle" is used multiple times, it'll only be broken down at the first instance.

This is exhaustive, so I may add to this in steps. Stay tuned!

soshite and (then), and (now); thus (conj.)
apparent. < demonstrative root so- "there, that" (distal, i.e. far from the speaker) + shite "do(ing)," gerund of suru "do"
thus perhaps the sense "thus, and (then/now)" < "so-doing, (in) doing that"

hitotabi once, one time, on a time; temporarily, for a moment (adv.n.)
a kun-reading form of more common ichido "one time, once," < ichi | hito- "one, single" + do | tabi "time, occasion"

tatakai battle, fight
infin. as verb. n. < tatakau "battle, fight, strive with" (intr.v.)

to nare ba if it came to
to conj. particle used to connect tatakai to nare ba
nare ba if it became < nare, hypothetical of naru become, be (of), consist of + ba (conj. particle)

sono that
sono that (demons. adj.) < demonstrative root so- "there, that" (distal)

chikara power, might

taru ya (topic particle, used to introduce the topic of a discussion with *emphasis*)

chouitsu zetsujin surpass (as though) break(ing from the) dust
poetic for supernal or marvelous skill or ability
chouitsu "surpass (and) outpace" < chou "surpass, exceed; sur-, super-" + itsu "pass along, rut"
zetsujin "break" or "sever dust" < zetsu "sever, break, end" + jin "dust"
seems to indicate figurative senses similar to those of English "outrun" etc. *and* "leave in the dust"/"hardly touch the ground"

narabumono equal, rival (n.)
narabu line up, stand in line; rival, match, equal (intr.v.)
-mono thing, one (n. suff.)


NOTES
This one was a bigger pain in the neck than I'd thought, esp. with Yamamoto speaking, since he uses a lot of archaisms and idioms typical of "elder" speakers. Thus, I hope my suggestions here are mostly correct (I believe they are, despite the difficulties).

Note again that, as with most translations, elements such as "the," "you(r)" etc. are sometimes inserted just to make the English version grammatically intelligible. If you have more detailed inquiries about what was there spelled-out and what wasn't, please post the query below in a message on the thread.

An example is one of the very first elements, chouitsu zetsujin. I couldn't find this anywhere in my normal sources, but actually found it in a Japanese gloss. It's apparently a poetic expression--whose antiquity requires explanations even for the Japanese to understand it--meaning something like "(so extraordinary as to be like a horse that) surpasses (all others as if) breaking from the dust (of the ground)." Chou is "surpass" and is also used as a prefix "over-, super-," while itsu is to "surpass, run ahead of." Zetsu is "cut, sever, break from," and jin is "dust, dirt." Perhaps the allusion is made to horses so strong and fast that they break from the rest and move so forcefully that they seem to "break from the dust" (i.e. "their fleet feet never seem to touch the ground")? If so, it would show interesting parallels with such English expressions, and others like "ahead of the pack" and "leave in the dust."

I underline the part "that power" to "translate" the fact that Yamamoto speaks of it in conjunction with taru ya, which is used to introduce a topic of discussion emphatically.

After this translation, I asked him to clarify whether Yamamoto was talking in past tense, i.e. their surpassing power was a thing of the past? Here is the answer:

This is actually one of the cases where I think my trans. may benefit from an additional layer, one I just discussed in my newest post in the "Encyclopedia" thread. This layer would be a *more* lit. point-by-point breakdown of the Japanese passages, to show where English grammar required insertion of words not present in said Japanese.

For example, to make the passage intelligible by English grammatical rules, I insert some pronouns not present in the raws, as Japanese has less necessity for pronouns in many cases than does English. Similarly here: the insertion of English past tense "was" is my own. It was, I guess, intended to cast Yamamoto's story in a kind of aorist "historical present" tense (speaking of past events as though they were currently happening to enhance the storytelling, like in English "So there I was: I opened the door..."). The more lit. breakdown of the line you cited would be (/|/ separates words):

Soshite hitotabi tatakai to nare ba sono chikara taru ya chouitsu zetsujin
Douhai nimo sendatsu nimo narabumono-nashi

And (then/now)/thus | once/on a time/one time | battle/fight (NOUN) | to (ADV. PARTICLE) | if-became | that | power | taru ya (EMPHATIC TOPIC PARTICLE) | surpass/outrun | sever/break (from) dust |
Peer | (not) even/neither | leader/pioneer | (not) even/nor | rival/(stand-to)-match/equal (VERB)-one | -without

As can be seen in the (admittedly somewhat complex ) breakdown above, few verbs are there to be had. So a more lit. translation, such as

"And once became battle that power surpass break-dust
Peer not leader nor equal one-without"

sounds strange in English. This is one of the great banes of translation from Japanese: things like who or what is being referred to or affected by the verbs can stay ambiguous and are only "implied," if that. Words that generally would require verbal aspects in English can stand alone in a kind of "default infinitive," resembling a noun (e.g. chouitsu zetsujin).

Maybe I should've gone more lit. with sendatsu "leader, pioneer" (< "fore-cleaved/attached"). The implication, it seems, was that their power had "neither peer nor (one that could) master (it)"--i.e. "get the best/mastery of them." I used "rival," though, because I feared the more poetic/expressive "master" would be confusing, and lead to spurious speculation like "that means Yamamoto is weaker than them?!" Here's where additions to the current "NOTES" section will likely come in handy.

So nothing implies that Ukiraku's greatness is now a thing of the past, to be supplanted by the new generation. As far as we know, they're still top-notch, and Kyouraku cites that even prodigious Hitsugaya would require another 100(?) years to surpass him.


Conclusion: As Yamamoto stated, Shunsui and Ukitake's power is yet to be surpassed by their peers and rivals. Aizen is an exception because Yamamoto had no idea about his true strength but Yamamoto had had the chance to witness/judge the abilities of every other captain and thus as their commander, he's qualified to make such an assessment.

En Yang Ji
April 27, 2010, 01:48 PM
- Yamamoto assesment is his own opinion and it's wrong. It's not just Aizen who true strrength Yama didn't know about.

- Yama hadn't seen the vizard captains after a 100 years. That was enough time for them to master their hollow powers. Tousen has a resurreccion.

- Urahara is the one who could be a lot stronger than Yama has seen. To become a captain, Urahara would only had to show what his shinigami abilities were at that current time, not what he's capable of with science. Even back than he could been a good deal stronger when using his inventions.

The point is, Yama didn't know a lot things when he said that. He could be wrong.

poopoomaru
April 27, 2010, 02:10 PM
I do agree with ki0 that I don't think Yamamoto's opinion can stretch over across the Vizards or Urahara. Both of which have had enough time and enough means to become exceptionally more powerful during their time outside of Yamamoto's awareness.

Gran Maestro
April 27, 2010, 02:17 PM
- Yamamoto assesment is his own opinion and it's wrong. It's not just Aizen who true strrength Yama didn't know about.

- Yama hadn't seen the vizard captains after a 100 years. That was enough time for them to master their hollow powers. Tousen has a resurreccion.

- Urahara is the one who could be a lot stronger than Yama has seen. To become a captain, Urahara would only had to show what his shinigami abilities were at that current time, not what he's capable of with science. Even back than he could been a good deal stronger when using his inventions.

The point is, Yama didn't know a lot things when he said that. He could be wrong.

Well, the war didn't prove Yamamoto wrong. Not yet. Isshin's past remains to be seen.

Raizen
April 27, 2010, 04:04 PM
- Yamamoto assesment is his own opinion and it's wrong. It's not just Aizen who true strrength Yama didn't know about.

- Yama hadn't seen the vizard captains after a 100 years. That was enough time for them to master their hollow powers. Tousen has a resurreccion.

- Urahara is the one who could be a lot stronger than Yama has seen. To become a captain, Urahara would only had to show what his shinigami abilities were at that current time, not what he's capable of with science. Even back than he could been a good deal stronger when using his inventions.

The point is, Yama didn't know a lot things when he said that. He could be wrong.
I think saying that yamamoto's assessment is wrong is nothing but bull. I don't wanna be mean but it is.

So far in teh war, the vizards have shown nothing that puts them on or above shunsui or uki. Urahara is still a wild card. But we saw that his shikai was made a joke by ulquiorra unreleased. There are no basis for the argument that yamamoto is wrong. It is nothing but an assumption

You can say that the vizards and urahara and co had time to train, well so did the captains. Furthermore, to be captain, your strength must be recognized by the fellow captains. That means showing bankai in most cases. Invention or not, in pure combat, yamamoto still claims shunsui and ukitake as unsurpassed, and that isn't even taking into their complementary partner skills

En Yang Ji
April 27, 2010, 04:06 PM
Aizen alone makes Yama wrong.

Raizen
April 27, 2010, 04:19 PM
Aizen alone makes Yama wrong.
Not necessarily. You forgot aizen had the edge over EVERYONE b/c of his shikai. But once his shikai was moot, he was having trouble with a fighter 1-on-1 (ie isshin). Now we can sit here and argue about isshin's strenght compared to shunsui, but right now it is all speculations

En Yang Ji
April 27, 2010, 04:22 PM
So you think Shunsui is stronger than Aizen, when Aizen has his shikai?

Raizen
April 27, 2010, 04:23 PM
I am saying that if aizen didn't have shunsui under his hypnosis from the start, aizen would be in trouble.

En Yang Ji
April 27, 2010, 04:25 PM
If they both didn't know each other abilities, who do you think would win?

Raizen
April 27, 2010, 04:31 PM
If shunsui is serious, i'd say aizen won't be able to release his shikai. My theory on aizen's shikai is that it takes time to completely hypnotize the opponent. That is why he gathered a big group of people together so he can use his "ritual". if his shikai is indeed quick enough to be used in battle, isshin would have fallen to it already. That is the one big weakness of KS IMO.

I'd say that be a match worth seeing. i honestly wouldn't know who would win.

Yans86
April 28, 2010, 07:27 AM
Gran Maestro,this is not effective??http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/374/01/ a huge sword through your chest is not effective???r u serious??
Stark started to heavily bleed and sweat http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/374/05/ ,his speed dropped,and u say hardly effective???http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/374/07/ STark is breathing hard...http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/374/08/ is keeping his hand on the chest while still bleeding hard and u call it ineffective???ooook......as u like.....

Does Hisagi statement negate the FACT that he got him even in his mask form without sight??NO!

Raizen,Stark was so strong that other hollows around him died.....are we really arguing about how strong are simple hollows against captain lvl opponents and above???should I remember u that menos grande and adjuchas ate thousands hundreds of those hollows and they are still not comparable to arrancar or VLs???
Would u say that Stark was a Vlarrancar or that in the future Aizen will say:Stark was a Vl,Yammi is a ....HUGE Vl...the others are....do u really expect this???not saying that when Aizen said perfect the espada and gahter the VL,Stark and the other were already in the rank....

And well,first of all Shunsui took the cero because he lost his focus.He was fighting along Ukitake against Stark,is it that smart to attack another point when u r were engaged with someone plenty strong until a fracciòn of second before??
How long did it pass for Shunsui to gave him a sneak attack??what was Stark doing???he was fighting 2 opponents but still after getting pierced the first time while injured he easily dodged the second AMAZING STRONG KAGEONI WHILE BLEEDING FROM HIS CHEST AND HAVING HIS MOVEMENT HEAVILY SLOWED DOWN....

Curious,Stark get pierced in the chest by a huge sword and his power should remain intact.....Aizen soul gets restructured by the hogyouku,he doesn't take any clear hit in a skermish of 2 seconds and Isshin managed to push him to his limit....if this is not twisting reality then there aren't really means to argue because there isn't really logic at this point...

One last thing Raizen,u say MY THEORY...well,your theory is wrong because FACT shows that once Aizen say shatter KS and the sword touch the ground u are already under the illusion...SEE BARRAGAN FLASHBACK AS A REFERENCE.
Not saying that if we talk about release,no one can even consider the possibility that saying SHATTER KYOUKA SUIGETSU(and let the sword touch the ground ) is slower then "The petal storms swirls,the flower god swings,the dark storms rages,the sky demons smirks,Katen Kyoukotsu"......(and no one is expecting Shunsui unreleased to beat Aizen unreleased,isn't it?!)
Not saying that having 2 swords isn't such an advantage when u have a fighter that can fight several opponents with one sword,crushing weapons,bodies and limbs with one-shot...(even Stark fought his 2 swords with 1)
Shunsui needed several hits with help from other guys to defeat primera,not even zero espada....Aizen gave one-shot to most of them,and regardless people sayin KS here and there just to bash him,u can't say that a SINGLE SWING BECOME STRONGER BECAUSE OF IT,because last time we all checked KS make an object being mistranslated throught the 5 senses,nothing more nothing less and it doesn't give MORE POWER,SPEED,STAMINA,KIDOSHIP,IT DOESN'T CHANGE THE SENSE OF TIME even if some of u seems convincted of it seeing the reasonig putted here for him to be able to one-shot 4 person without any of them even dodging or parrying......despite the other persons getting one shotted,having their weapons destroyed and their body crushed easily without it....(SOME PEOPLE KEEP IGNORING ICHIGO POINT OF VIEW AGAIN AND AGAIN AND AGAIN)....

Said that there's not really much to argue now....

Shunsui and Ukitake are strong,stronger then most of the captain but overrating them to the lvl to say that they would DOMINATE anyone and fight on equal ground with someone like Aizen or around this level is totally another matter that doesn't have anything close to logical,from what they have shown till now to their role in the story/plot(side characters)....

Gran Maestro
April 28, 2010, 09:41 AM
Gran Maestro,this is not effective??http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/374/01/ a huge sword through your chest is not effective???r u serious??
Stark started to heavily bleed and sweat http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/374/05/ ,his speed dropped,and u say hardly effective???http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/374/07/ STark is breathing hard...http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/374/08/ is keeping his hand on the chest while still bleeding hard and u call it ineffective???ooook......as u like.....

It was not as effective as you try to portray, if Stark's speed slowed down, he couldn't have touched Shunsui in color game, this is so simple. And if Stark, with his reduced speed, was able to touch Shunsui, he would have destroyed Shunsui before he got injured.


Shunsui and Ukitake are strong,stronger then most of the captain but overrating them to the lvl to say that they would DOMINATE anyone

Shunsui and Ukitake are stronger than most of the captains? Here's the list: Yamamoto, Soifon, Gin, Unohana, Aizen, Byakuya, Komamura, Tousen (hollow), Hitsugaya, Kenpachi, Mayuri, Urahara, Yoruichi, Tessai, Isshin, Shinji, Kensei, Love and Rose. Tell me which captains are stronger than Shunsui & Ukitake, which captains are on par and which captains are weaker. Let's see if they're stronger than most captains or not because it seems you definitely think they're mid-tier at best or perhaps low-tier.


They were at close range and he was heavily injured,his movement severely slowed down and Shunsui followed throught with the next move...how could he charge them???Not saying that no one would use bombs at close range....so I'm sorry,my argument is not invalid at all.Also using Aizen's statement out of contest can't work here and doesn't work here....not saying that Hitsu VS Halibel is a totally different fight,with total different opponent and totally different weapons...

You can keep your distance against opponents with similar strength, do you disagree? This is what Aizen said, explain the proper context of Aizen's statement if you don't agree. And explain how Hitsugaya kept his distance against Harribel. Don't evade my argument, explain.

If you are fast enough to do damage, you can certainly keep your distance. Stark did slow down to the extent that he couldn't keep his distance but at the same time he was fast enough to keep up with and injure Shunsui in the color game? You're contradicting yourself.

You're just looking at the stab wound and say Stark was heavily injured but Stark's performance against Shunsui in the color game proves you wrong. If we'll only look at the injuries and ignore the rest, how exactly did Kenpachi defeat Nnoitra after this injury (http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/310/18/), explain? Shunsui was keeping up with Stark before the injury, if Stark did slow down, he couldn't have possibly hurt Shunsui in his heavily injured state. Is it too hard to comprehend this simple explanation?


I clearly said that SHUNSUI games as he explained can ENHANCE/MULTIPLY the effectiviness of certain attack if used by the rules.If u really believe what u r saying not even OldYama in bankai can toucvh him,.and his color shikai game would make him invincible against anyone!!

Nothing is invincible in Bleach, everything falls against overwhelming reiatsu. Yamamoto's reiatsu in bankai would most probably pulverize Shunsui. Yamamoto implied (http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/156/10/) that Shunsui and Ukitake's shikais could protect them to some extent against being incinerated.


We r far from seeing an invulnerable character,even OldYama and Aizen aren't invulnerable beside all their powers(physically,kido,device ecc...)!!!So saying that one game of a shikai make a person invulnerable to any attack of any characters is just big non-sense....

The color game doesn't make Shunsui invincible. Your opponent can always defeat you in a sword fight by calling out a useful color.


Do u really think that if Shunsuii is lpaying Irooni against any opponent,his opponent would not be able to cut his head even if he get hits????
Give proper answer instead of those weak attempt of attacking people without proper logic and reasonings.....

Shunsui's opponent can only cut the color that was called out, he can't cut off Shunsui's head. Kubo says so, if you have problems with proper logic and reasoning, go sue Kubo because Kubo decides the rules. Don't ignore Kubo's rules.


Seriously,if ur speech was true,why bother to parry here:http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/374/15/ and here http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/374/16/ or dodge here http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/374/17/ ?!after getting Stark hit it was his turn to call out a color so Stark wouldn't have dealt any damage,and even if the color white was still activated,seeing the direction of the attack he would have not dealt any damage to Shunsui according to what u r saying but as u see Shunsui still parry and dodge because he knows that he isn't invulnerable.....

Yep, "white" was still active until Shunsui called out "black" and there was "white" on Shunsui, so Stark's attacks could have injured him. I don't know what you mean by saying "direction of the attack", Shunsui's haori, his front was all white.


Said that,instead of running in circle trying to dismantle things with talks and talks over 2 situational word,answer directly: Would Shunsui be invulnerable to any kind of attack from any kind of opponent during his color game????????????is it plausible to you?????????one out of 10,50,100 games of a shikai make a person invulnerable...is it logical to u?????Answer directly with yes or no to each of them,TY!

Rule #1 of Bleach: Strong reiatsu overpowers weaker reiatsu. Any attack with sufficiently strong reiatsu can overpower Shunsui's rules. For example, Yamamoto's bankai and most probably Yamamoto's flames of hell shikai technique are strong enough to defeat Shunsui's rules.

This game doesn't make Shunsui invulnerable because Shunsui's opponent can always cut/injure Shunsui during the game. Shunsui can be invulnerable for a certain amount of time by calling out a useless color but he has to face another color at some point. And if Shunsui calls out a useless color, he can't do much damage to his opponents, so being invulnerable does him no good.

Did you get your answer? ;)

En Yang Ji
April 28, 2010, 10:16 AM
If that's the case Shunsui could simply choose a color to make himself invulnerable and kill his opponent by attacking his opponent. Shunsui never said the damage of his attacks are reduced if he hits a certain color. The only thing he mentioned, is the maximum damage possible while playing Iro oni.

If all this is true Shunsui with Iro oni > Yama without shikai.

Gran Maestro
April 28, 2010, 10:59 AM
If that's the case Shunsui could simply choose a color to make himself invulnerable and kill his opponent by attacking his opponent. Shunsui never said the damage of his attacks are reduced if he hits a certain color. The only thing he mentioned, is the maximum damage possible while playing Iro oni.

If all this is true Shunsui with Iro oni > Yama without shikai.

Huh? :blink

If Shunsui, for example, says "purple", he can make himself invulnerable but he can't do serious damage at all because the damage is proportional to the amount of "purple" on him and since he doesn't wear purple, the damage will be minimum. And when it's Yamamoto's turn, how will Shunsui save himself?

En Yang Ji
April 28, 2010, 12:49 PM
Huh? :blink

If Shunsui, for example, says "purple", he can make himself invulnerable but he can't do serious damage at all because the damage is proportional to the amount of "purple" on him and since he doesn't wear purple, the damage will be minimum. And when it's Yamamoto's turn, how will Shunsui save himself?

In that scenario, what do you think would happen if Shunsui attempted cut off Yama's head of stab him? Would he not be able to do it because of Irooni?

hakuthehedgehog
April 28, 2010, 12:54 PM
In that scenario, what do you think would happen if Shunsui attempted cut off Yama's head of stab him? Would he not be able to do it because of Irooni?

Of course not, he himself said that cutting a colour other the one you called off would be useless.
Also, if you think Shunsui can score a hit on YAMAMOTO that easily, you are completely out of your mind.

En Yang Ji
April 28, 2010, 01:00 PM
Of course not, he himself said that cutting a colour other the one you called off would be useless.
Also, if you think Shunsui can score a hit on YAMAMOTO that easily, you are completely out of your mind.

So Shunsui when playing Irooni if, if Shunsui calls out a color that makes him invulnerable his attacks would also be useless?

Gran Maestro, Raizen do you agree with this?

I don't think Shunsui would get a hit on Yama easily. The reason I made that scenario like that, was to make a point.

Gran Maestro
April 28, 2010, 01:28 PM
So Shunsui when playing Irooni if, if Shunsui calls out a color that makes him invulnerable his attacks would also be useless?

If a color makes him invulnerable, it means he doesn't have this color on him. If he doesn't have this color on him, all his attacks to this color will do minimal damage and they will be almost useless. Trying to cut a different color will do no damage at all and it will be totally useless.

En Yang Ji
April 28, 2010, 01:45 PM
So if Shunsui says purple when fighting Yama, all of Shunsui's attacks will be useless.

Gran Maestro
April 28, 2010, 01:48 PM
So if Shunsui says purple when fighting Yama, all of Shunsui's attacks will be useless.

Yes. Since neither Yamamoto nor Shunsui has purple on them, neither of them will be able to inflict any damage until Yamamoto's turn.

hakuthehedgehog
April 28, 2010, 01:51 PM
Just one thing, can you say skin colour and then cut the skin? Because otherwise you just have to get naked to be completely invulnerable xD

Gran Maestro
April 28, 2010, 01:52 PM
Just one thing, can you say skin colour and then cut the skin?

Why not? I think this is possible.

Yans86
April 28, 2010, 02:42 PM
I'll answerr while smiling :-D
I'll answer for the last time a couple of things just because it's funny!
1)Being pierced in the chest,bleeding from it,sweating hard just after it and say is not as effective as it is??u talk about twisted logic when logic says that an injury like that would obviously damage heavily any character.......u say KAGEONI is great and then...he didn't deal any damage....what's the logic in that??

2)Yes,I said that they r stronger then most of the captain which put them above the average already....how can u come and say: "u consider them mid-tier/low tier".....where did I ever said that???u probably never read a single things of what I have written because I always said that they r STRONG...always!!!!!!so please stop,TY!
And well,Aizen is stronger,OldYama is stronger,Isshin is stronger,Unohana is stronger,Gin is likely stronger due to his role,Urahara is stronger due to his role,Yoruichi too and Shinji might be on par with them....here is your answer,happy now?!And it's not only me that says that....

3)Someone is infighting and charging and u talk about making more distance,r u serious'???do u think is that easy after takling a huge sword in the chest???U can't say "if u r fast enough to deal damage u r fast enough to keep ur distance",this is total non-sense!!!I can damage u even with a bite but would this make me able to gain distance???come on...
And seriously,u see only the color game...look at all the fight,not just at the small picture.....SHUNSUI DIDN'T LAND A SINGLE HIT UNTIL STARK WAS ENGAGED WITH 2 OTHER OPPONENTS,AFTER INJURING HIM HE WAS ABLE TO CUT HIM BUT STILL STARK COULD KEEP UP.WHO SLOWED DOWN???STARK IT'S OBVIOUS...
And well,can u really talk about Kenpachi???he is on a league on his own,everyone knows that!!!the guy can tank thing that the 90% of thecharacter can only dream about,not saying that he is not even a fast fighter so sorry,u r just running in circle to prove something that doesn't exist!

3)All 3 attacks from Stark came from the front where he was wearing black,why not tanking them with his chest indeed???at best he would have been scratched.....at best,nad even pierced he wouldn't get much damage...

4)Pls stop this imply imply imply,Yamamoto didn't imply nothing!!it's obvious that if they didn't fight back they wuold have been pwned hard!!!

5)Rule#1 ok.......no one ever said word about Shunsui reiatsu,no one was ever shocked or anything on this note,not saying that Aizen's reiatsu is beyond his so as u said,yes,his color game would be useless and the others technique wouldn't touch him!!Same goes for Kenpachi,Ichigo R2 and at least other 2/3 characters,damn even some vizard might have more reiatsu then him with their mask on...:-D

Ty for ur answer,so basically Shunsui has just to play color games all the times which make all the other technique and bankai useless!but seen how Kubo like to be redundant he gave him some more useless game like Busho Koma,Takeoni and Kagaoni that even if it pierce u in the chest it doesn't deal damage....

Gran Maestro
April 28, 2010, 03:45 PM
2)Yes,I said that they r stronger then most of the captain which put them above the average already....how can u come and say: "u consider them mid-tier/low tier".....where did I ever said that???u probably never read a single things of what I have written because I always said that they r STRONG...always!!!!!!so please stop,TY!
And well,Aizen is stronger,OldYama is stronger,Isshin is stronger,Unohana is stronger,Gin is likely stronger due to his role,Urahara is stronger due to his role,Yoruichi too and Shinji might be on par with them....here is your answer,happy now?!And it's not only me that says that....

I asked this question because since you thanked this post (http://mangahelpers.com/forum/showthread.php?p=1861308#post1861308), I thought you would say all vizard captains are stronger than them. I thought you would say Kenpachi (http://mangahelpers.com/forum/showthread.php?p=1840484#post1840484) and perhaps Byakuya would defeat them. I thought you would say hollow Tousen would destroy them. Anyway, I think you're overrating Gin and Yoruichi but this is the subject of another discussion. Thanks for clarification.


1)Being pierced in the chest,bleeding from it,sweating hard just after it and say is not as effective as it is??u talk about twisted logic when logic says that an injury like that would obviously damage heavily any character.......u say KAGEONI is great and then...he didn't deal any damage....what's the logic in that??

Stark said Kageoni was great. It gives a free shot but it doesn't mean that once you stab an opponent, game is over. For example, Yamamoto took a stab to the stomach from Aizen and he laughed it off.


3)Someone is infighting and charging and u talk about making more distance,r u serious'???do u think is that easy after takling a huge sword in the chest???U can't say "if u r fast enough to deal damage u r fast enough to keep ur distance",this is total non-sense!!!I can damage u even with a bite but would this make me able to gain distance???come on...

Do you understand what I'm saying: If you're fast enough to create an opening and cut an opponent, it means you're fast enough to keep your distance. Stark created an opening using his speed and cut Shunsui's back. It was the first time in their fight Stark managed to inflict such a damage and you still say the injury slowed him down. Stark didn't look like a guy who slowed down.


And seriously,u see only the color game...look at all the fight,not just at the small picture.....SHUNSUI DIDN'T LAND A SINGLE HIT UNTIL STARK WAS ENGAGED WITH 2 OTHER OPPONENTS,AFTER INJURING HIM HE WAS ABLE TO CUT HIM BUT STILL STARK COULD KEEP UP.WHO SLOWED DOWN???STARK IT'S OBVIOUS...

What did Stark do to Shunsui in a sword fight when he was okay? Just like Shunsui didn't land a single hit, Stark didn't land a single serious hit until Shunsui was distracted because of WW. The hit in color game was Stark's first major hit and you still say he slowed down. If Stark did slow down, he couldn't have managed to inflict his first major damage in the fight.


And well,can u really talk about Kenpachi???he is on a league on his own,everyone knows that!!!the guy can tank thing that the 90% of thecharacter can only dream about,not saying that he is not even a fast fighter so sorry,u r just running in circle to prove something that doesn't exist!

Kenpachi is a Bleach character like any other and the rules apply to him. Kenpachi vs Nnoitra shows that we have examples which prove Stark's damage don't have to be the reason for his downfall. Stark's performance in color game proves that this damage didn't affect him much. Stark did his first major damage when he was injured.


3)All 3 attacks from Stark came from the front where he was wearing black,why not tanking them with his chest indeed???at best he would have been scratched.....at best,nad even pierced he wouldn't get much damage...

Shunsui was wearing a haori, Stark could cut Shunsui's haori, Shunsui was not all black.


4)Pls stop this imply imply imply,Yamamoto didn't imply nothing!!it's obvious that if they didn't fight back they wuold have been pwned hard!!!

Yamamoto said that if they didn't release their shikai, they would have been reduced to ashes. It means their shikai may put a resistance against Yamamoto's fire.


5)Rule#1 ok.......no one ever said word about Shunsui reiatsu,no one was ever shocked or anything on this note,not saying that Aizen's reiatsu is beyond his so as u said,yes,his color game would be useless and the others technique wouldn't touch him!!Same goes for Kenpachi,Ichigo R2 and at least other 2/3 characters,damn even some vizard might have more reiatsu then him with their mask on...:-D

There has to be a great reiatsu difference to break Shunsui's rules. Yamamoto's fire in bankai would probably overpower it (because it has great attack power) but you can't say all these characters can nullify Shunsui's games with reiatsu.


Ty for ur answer,so basically Shunsui has just to play color games all the times which make all the other technique and bankai useless!but seen how Kubo like to be redundant he gave him some more useless game like Busho Koma,Takeoni and Kagaoni that even if it pierce u in the chest it doesn't deal damage....

Shunsui can play the color game to protect himself to some extent but what good is it in practice? He can stall his opponent but if his opponent is stronger, he eventually loses. Nobody says Shunsui's shikai overpowers all these bankais. You have to give credit to Stark for being in relatively good shape after Kageoni, you are downplaying Stark's strength.

Yans86
April 28, 2010, 04:44 PM
So anyone can tank attacks like Kenpachi does...

Being pierced in the chest isn't a serious damage but being cutted in any other way it is seeing what happened to the other characters...

Shunsui demonstrated an overwhelming reiatsu that was pointed out by who??nothing make his reitasu as strong as R2 Ichigo and other characters like Aizen...

What good is in practice?his friend can cut heads while he stop his enemy....and well,I'm not referring to other bankai but to his possible bankai...
And well not,I'm not downplaying Stark because even injured he could deal good hits...

Gran Maestro
April 28, 2010, 04:59 PM
So anyone can tank attacks like Kenpachi does...

Being pierced in the chest isn't a serious damage but being cutted in any other way it is seeing what happened to the other characters...

Shunsui demonstrated an overwhelming reiatsu that was pointed out by who??nothing make his reitasu as strong as R2 Ichigo and other characters like Aizen...

What good is in practice?his friend can cut heads while he stop his enemy....and well,I'm not referring to other bankai but to his possible bankai...
And well not,I'm not downplaying Stark because even injured he could deal good hits...

Shunsui's friend can't cut off heads because everybody around plays the game. If Shunsui can't do something, neither can his friend.

I didn't say Shunsui has overwhelming reiatsu, I say you must have overwhelming reiatsu (compared to Shunsui) to nullify his shikai ability. The reiatsu in an attack has to be overwhelming to bypass the rules and actually injure Shunsui. This same rule applies to everybody, if your reiatsu is overwhelmingly stronger than your opponent's, you can negate his abilities.

Everybody's resistance to damage is different, Kenpachi has huge reiatsu, this is why he survives normally fatal injuries. Stark is also strong, he is the primera espada, his reiatsu is strong and a stab to the chest doesn't finish him, he is better than that. Of course the person who inflicts the damage is also important but Stark's performance against Shunsui in the color game was not bad at all.

Weapon_X
April 28, 2010, 09:06 PM
Yes I do think they are overrated. Sure Shunsui took down the #1 Espada with just his Shikai but Aizen has said so himself that he can take down the whole Espada by himself(so Shunsui's comparison against Aizen's is shit), and Shunsui literally got one shotted by Aizen.

Don't get me started on Ukitake, one shotted so easily, I bet you he's still on the floor :(

poopoomaru
April 28, 2010, 10:57 PM
I think that Shunsui and Ukitake aren't overrated in the sense that amongst the Captains they are the strongest, besides Yamamoto of course. There is a whole other tier of strength that is beyond them however.

Aizen is obviously in a higher tier. It isn't fair to compare them to one of the strongest characters in the manga. Amongst the Captains which include: Soifon, Byakuya, Komamura, Mayuri, Hitsugaya, Zaraki, Gin, Tousen without Hollow Powers, and Ichigo without his mask, Shunsui and Ukitake are the strongest. That is a fairly big list in my opinion. Include within that most of the Espada and the list only grows.

In all honesty we have to keep perspective.

Gran Maestro
April 29, 2010, 03:42 AM
I think that Shunsui and Ukitake aren't overrated in the sense that amongst the Captains they are the strongest, besides Yamamoto of course. There is a whole other tier of strength that is beyond them however.

Aizen is obviously in a higher tier. It isn't fair to compare them to one of the strongest characters in the manga. Amongst the Captains which include: Soifon, Byakuya, Komamura, Mayuri, Hitsugaya, Zaraki, Gin, Tousen without Hollow Powers, and Ichigo without his mask, Shunsui and Ukitake are the strongest. That is a fairly big list in my opinion. Include within that most of the Espada and the list only grows.

In all honesty we have to keep perspective.

I can say Yamamoto, Aizen, Isshin and probably Unohana are stronger than these guys. Perhaps Urahara too but I think Urahara is on par with Yoruichi. His inventions may prove useful though. I'm pretty sure Yoruichi, Tessai and vizards are weaker than them. Perhaps Shinji is an exception but at the moment IMO Shunsui is slightly stronger than him. And I doubt Tousen (hollow) is stronger than Stark, let alone Shunsui.

P.S. I don't know why people think Yoruichi is ultra-strong. I like Yoruichi, she is one of my favourite characters but I don't know what she did to deserve such hype. Yes, she may be the fastest shinigami but Zommari was the fastest espada and he was #7.

Raizen
April 29, 2010, 11:35 AM
Yes I do think they are overrated. Sure Shunsui took down the #1 Espada with just his Shikai but Aizen has said so himself that he can take down the whole Espada by himself(so Shunsui's comparison against Aizen's is shit), and Shunsui literally got one shotted by Aizen.

Don't get me started on Ukitake, one shotted so easily, I bet you he's still on the floor :(
Aizen said that in regards to them already under his illusions. We know that KS is basically the most hax ability out there. Furthermore, i already stated why shunsui and shinji and co fell. Hitsu caused them to lose their focus, which left them open. Aizen wouldn't have said "you left yourself open" if it was not relevant

I have a feeling ukitake will more than redeem himself.

And i agree with gran. Yousuichi is cool, but nothing states that she is ultra strong. She was scared of byakuya's shikai. I say if anything she may be a bit stronger than byakuya, but that is it.

kkck
April 29, 2010, 12:18 PM
I don't think aizen would have been capable of taking advantage of this opening if he wasn't significantly faster than them though. For one thing, he attacked from the very front and the attack started from a distance. Had aizen not been significantly faster than them they would have been able to react to an attack which started 200 meters away. Hitsugaya was literally heading for aizen and still could not defend himself. Shinji was also looking straight at aizen before he was struck down and still could not react to the guy. Had any of them been anywhere near aizen's league they would have been able to raise their guards IMHO. Also, aizen did not cut the 4 of them down at the same time, logically there was an order to it. Ok, lets give whoever was cut first the benefit of the doubt. Still, the second did not see aizen coming. The third one to be cut down did not have it in him to react to either aizen cutting the first or the second guy. The fourth is even worst, he did not react to aizen cutting the first 3 guys. It's not like this "opening" could be used by anyone in the way aizen did, I honestly doubt any other bleach character could do that perhaps except for yama. Aizen ultimately walked of this fight without a scratch because captain level shinigami are fodder to him.

poopoomaru
April 29, 2010, 12:23 PM
I can say Yamamoto, Aizen, Isshin and probably Unohana are stronger than these guys. Perhaps Urahara too but I think Urahara is on par with Yoruichi. His inventions may prove useful though. I'm pretty sure Yoruichi, Tessai and vizards are weaker than them. Perhaps Shinji is an exception but at the moment IMO Shunsui is slightly stronger than him. And I doubt Tousen (hollow) is stronger than Stark, let alone Shunsui.

P.S. I don't know why people think Yoruichi is ultra-strong. I like Yoruichi, she is one of my favourite characters but I don't know what she did to deserve such hype. Yes, she may be the fastest shinigami but Zommari was the fastest espada and he was #7.

I left out a few people to be sure, but more so because we can't be 100% sure about exactly where their power lay.

I can say for instance that Shinji is most definitely weaker then him without his hollow powers. I can't really make an assumption with though, Shinji didn't show us his real skills with a mask and his shikai.

Tousen in fly form for instance I believe has more power then him, but it psychologically makes Tousen have openings because of the nature of his hollow self's mentality. Thus I agree that hollow Tousen is weaker.

Lunatic Scream
April 29, 2010, 02:34 PM
I don't think aizen would have been capable of taking advantage of this opening if he wasn't significantly faster than them though. For one thing, he attacked from the very front and the attack started from a distance. Had aizen not been significantly faster than them they would have been able to react to an attack which started 200 meters away. Hitsugaya was literally heading for aizen and still could not defend himself. Shinji was also looking straight at aizen before he was struck down and still could not react to the guy. Had any of them been anywhere near aizen's league they would have been able to raise their guards IMHO. Also, aizen did not cut the 4 of them down at the same time, logically there was an order to it. Ok, lets give whoever was cut first the benefit of the doubt. Still, the second did not see aizen coming. The third one to be cut down did not have it in him to react to either aizen cutting the first or the second guy. The fourth is even worst, he did not react to aizen cutting the first 3 guys. It's not like this "opening" could be used by anyone in the way aizen did, I honestly doubt any other bleach character could do that perhaps except for yama. Aizen ultimately walked of this fight without a scratch because captain level shinigami are fodder to him.

I thought the fact that they were all facing the complete opposite direction when they were cut down implied that they were charging at (yet another) illusion.

kkck
April 29, 2010, 03:54 PM
I thought the fact that they were all facing the complete opposite direction when they were cut down implied that they were charging at (yet another) illusion.

You mean here (http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/392/21-22/) and here (http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/393/01/)?

Not at all. Aizen simply rushed from the front, cut them and ended up behind them. No illusion here.

Lunatic Scream
April 29, 2010, 05:59 PM
You mean here (http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/392/21-22/) and here (http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/393/01/)?

Not at all. Aizen simply rushed from the front, cut them and ended up behind them. No illusion here.

Meh, I'm always dubious once KS has been brought into play. Mainly because if that's truly just speed-blitz play, then Isshin is so much better than everyone else in this series, it's not even funny.

Gran Maestro
April 29, 2010, 06:49 PM
Meh, I'm always dubious once KS has been brought into play. Mainly because if that's truly just speed-blitz play, then Isshin is so much better than everyone else in this series, it's not even funny.

That's right, here's an example: Aizen is talking to Yamamoto and Yamamoto says (http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/393/06/) "You can't cut me down", Aizen says (http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/393/07/) "I have already done so" suggesting that he has already gone on the offensive. He appears behind Yamamoto and stabs him in the next page (http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/393/08/). Aizen can always attack while an illusion he left behind is talking and distracting his opponent(s).

We know that attacking an enemy in an enraged state spells doom (http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/389/07/), interestingly Aizen either overpowered his enemies by strength or took advantage of their rage or openings caused by rage. For example, he didn't take care of calm Hitsugaya (http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/389/04/) like he did against enraged Hitsugaya (http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/170/22/).

The bottom line is whenever Aizen attacks, his illusion disappears and his opponents find a brief chance to react. Aizen creates openings and enrages his opponents to make them lose focus and prevent them from reacting in time. Whenever you lose focus, it proves lethal but Aizen doesn't go one-shot people when they're focused and ready to react, not by using illusions. Some people suggest Aizen can do that but Aizen never defeated a focused/calm opponent using his illusion to hide the attack. He simply overpowered them. I guess this is Kubo's way of reducing Aizen's hax to reasonable limits.

exacta
April 29, 2010, 10:03 PM
Why the hell did Kubo take such a dump on Ukitake???

He could've at least had him fight a character evenly for a second, then have his illness come up or something, instead of having him get one shot by WW...


In fact......out of all the captains, he's had the least action. He's the only captain that didn't get to fight Aizen, and he barely fought an Espada, and he couldn't even stay conscious long enough for him to see the Vizards return.....he saved Shunsui, but Stark out manuveured him seconds after and Shunsui had to save Ukitake.

Seriously Kubo, WTF???:notrust

kkck
April 29, 2010, 10:23 PM
Why the hell did Kubo take such a dump on Ukitake???

He could've at least had him fight a character evenly for a second, then have his illness come up or something, instead of having him get one shot by WW...


In fact......out of all the captains, he's had the least action. He's the only captain that didn't get to fight Aizen, and he barely fought an Espada, and he couldn't even stay conscious long enough for him to see the Vizards return.....he saved Shunsui, but Stark out manuveured him seconds after and Shunsui had to save Ukitake.

Seriously Kubo, WTF???:notrust
Don't recall shunsui saving ukitake though. WOnderweiss was a wildcard, I doubt he showed consistent power levels. Even though ukitake's overall physical capacity should be low, I doubt masked mashiro was that overwhelmingly superior to him -or at all-.

Raizen
May 03, 2010, 01:39 PM
I don't think aizen would have been capable of taking advantage of this opening if he wasn't significantly faster than them though. For one thing, he attacked from the very front and the attack started from a distance. Had aizen not been significantly faster than them they would have been able to react to an attack which started 200 meters away. Hitsugaya was literally heading for aizen and still could not defend himself. Shinji was also looking straight at aizen before he was struck down and still could not react to the guy. Had any of them been anywhere near aizen's league they would have been able to raise their guards IMHO. Also, aizen did not cut the 4 of them down at the same time, logically there was an order to it. Ok, lets give whoever was cut first the benefit of the doubt. Still, the second did not see aizen coming. The third one to be cut down did not have it in him to react to either aizen cutting the first or the second guy. The fourth is even worst, he did not react to aizen cutting the first 3 guys. It's not like this "opening" could be used by anyone in the way aizen did, I honestly doubt any other bleach character could do that perhaps except for yama. Aizen ultimately walked of this fight without a scratch because captain level shinigami are fodder to him.
Not true. The reason i bring up how aizen was able to somehow switch places with hinamori was to point out the power of KS. Aizen could have made a talking illusion for the captains to focus on while he himself is standing right next to them. When hitsu rushed and got all of them to lower their guards, aizen striked. So no, there was no speed feats, just aizen taking advantage of teh situation

En Yang Ji
May 03, 2010, 06:13 PM
Shunsui and Ukitake are strong, I just don't see them being on Aizens level. Shunsui had trouble with the 1st Espada and Ukitake was one shot'ed by WW.

freshseth83
May 04, 2010, 02:42 AM
When did Shunsui have trouble with the 1st espada, Stark? When he wasn't even in Shikai he stood against him. Stark goes resureccion and Shunsui goes Shikai. Ichigo couldn't stand against #4 with MASK! And then died and had his full hollow form take over to beat him. #3 Espada whooped on Hitusgaya who luckily got his most powerful move in BANKAI to temporarily stop her. #2 Espada had to have an uber powerful Bankai move 2 times plus super amounts of Kidou to beat him. Shunsui beats the #1 Espada in just Shikai.

Aizen didn't say he was stronger than all of his Espada put together. He said the lot of you. That means he's stronger than all of them, not at once, but more like, individually.

Going by Yama's comments, Shunsui and Ukitake are the best captains. Regardless of Aizen, he's used illusions and has fused with the Hoguyoku to get to where he's at. Without illusions Aizen wouldn't be this god people claim him to be. Why do I say that? Isshin has pushed him to his SHINIGAMI LIMITS. By Aizen's own words. So someone that's been a captain before that might or might not be as strong or skilled as Uki or Shunsui, pushed Aizen to his Shinigami limits without the use of as much as a shikai. So I'm led to believe, without the benefit of having someone already under the influence of KS, Aizen might not be as strong as Uki or Shunsui. I don't think they're overrated at all. Probably underrated.

poopoomaru
May 04, 2010, 03:27 AM
When did Shunsui have trouble with the 1st espada, Stark? When he wasn't even in Shikai he stood against him. Stark goes resureccion and Shunsui goes Shikai. Ichigo couldn't stand against #4 with MASK! And then died and had his full hollow form take over to beat him. #3 Espada whooped on Hitusgaya who luckily got his most powerful move in BANKAI to temporarily stop her. #2 Espada had to have an uber powerful Bankai move 2 times plus super amounts of Kidou to beat him. Shunsui beats the #1 Espada in just Shikai.

Aizen didn't say he was stronger than all of his Espada put together. He said the lot of you. That means he's stronger than all of them, not at once, but more like, individually.

Going by Yama's comments, Shunsui and Ukitake are the best captains. Regardless of Aizen, he's used illusions and has fused with the Hoguyoku to get to where he's at. Without illusions Aizen wouldn't be this god people claim him to be. Why do I say that? Isshin has pushed him to his SHINIGAMI LIMITS. By Aizen's own words. So someone that's been a captain before that might or might not be as strong or skilled as Uki or Shunsui, pushed Aizen to his Shinigami limits without the use of as much as a shikai. So I'm led to believe, without the benefit of having someone already under the influence of KS, Aizen might not be as strong as Uki or Shunsui. I don't think they're overrated at all. Probably underrated.

You CANT remove KS's influence in regard to Aizen. That is a part of his power. It being stupidly overpowered means he is stupidly overpowered. It's like saying Shunsui is weak because he couldn't beat Starrk without Katen Kyokotsu, it doesn't make sense. Aizen's power isn't direct, but it is still his power and him using illusions to create openings is no different then Ichigo using his bankai to rapidly move into someone's blind spot.

Aizen doesn't gain any direct boost to any aspect of his physical fighting ability. He matches the power of bankai with his bare sword alone because he trained to the point physically where his sword is all he needed. That is a testament to how powerful he is. It is also the biggest indication of KS's weakeness. That in reality if Aizen wasn't so powerful otherwise, KS wouldn't be that useful at all. When faced with opponents more powerful then himself besides KS, he has only shown that he can't match up. Perfect support is only useful with the matching offense and defense.

You can't make the argument that Shunsui & Ukitake are as strong as Aizen because without KS he is only AS strong as they are because that means that without anything he is as powerful as they are with all of their Shikai's amazing abilities. It is no comparison at all.

Raizen
May 04, 2010, 11:40 AM
You CANT remove KS's influence in regard to Aizen. That is a part of his power. It being stupidly overpowered means he is stupidly overpowered. It's like saying Shunsui is weak because he couldn't beat Starrk without Katen Kyokotsu, it doesn't make sense. Aizen's power isn't direct, but it is still his power and him using illusions to create openings is no different then Ichigo using his bankai to rapidly move into someone's blind spot.

Aizen doesn't gain any direct boost to any aspect of his physical fighting ability. He matches the power of bankai with his bare sword alone because he trained to the point physically where his sword is all he needed. That is a testament to how powerful he is. It is also the biggest indication of KS's weakeness. That in reality if Aizen wasn't so powerful otherwise, KS wouldn't be that useful at all. When faced with opponents more powerful then himself besides KS, he has only shown that he can't match up. Perfect support is only useful with the matching offense and defense.

You can't make the argument that Shunsui & Ukitake are as strong as Aizen because without KS he is only AS strong as they are because that means that without anything he is as powerful as they are with all of their Shikai's amazing abilities. It is no comparison at all.
I get where you are coming from, but just want to point out a few things.

We all agree that KS is hax, no one here is saying he shouldn't be using it. What we are saying is that the fights would be more fair if aizen's opponents, like shunsui, was not put under KS b4 the start of the battle. Meaning that aizen would have to activate KS during battle, which seems to be quite difficult if not impossible (isshin vs aizen).

Aizen's shikai may not increase any physical abilties, same with shunsui's or uki, but it gives him basically Ultimate mode lol. No one here is denying that aizen is strong, but does that mean he is stronger than the likes of shunsui or uki if they weren't under his illusions from the beginning? I think not. KS may not be all aizen has, but it has saved hiis ass many times

kkck
May 04, 2010, 12:01 PM
IMHO if shunsui or ukitake were anywhere near aizen's level they would not have been taken out by aizen just because he used the illusion -technically ukitake wasn't taken out by aizen-. Seriously, aizen didn't keep the espada together just because of KS or some sense of duty and moral, he kept the together because they new that they'd get the shit beaten out of them if they did not do as told. Aizen not starting a fight with KS would be different than usual but his other skills are still so far above the captain level he would still win IMHO. Provided the enemy does not know of KS aizen can still get him caught though, for the most part just announcing a release should get the enemy on his guard and make him focus on the sword.

Raizen
May 04, 2010, 12:31 PM
^ That's technically not true. You should know just how big of an advantage KS is. If you put 2 people of equal skills against each other with one possesing illusions, that one is basically going to beat the other. Illusions are total hax. Not to mention, i stand on the ground that even w/ KS, aizen needed a distraction for shunsui to lower his guard to take him out.

The espadas followed aizen b/c each had their own goals. THat has already been made clear.

And i don't see how aizen's abilities are so much greater than the others.

Delbi
May 04, 2010, 12:51 PM
The only people who seem to pose any threat to Aizen are Isshin, Yama, and Urahara. They are the only one's who can do anything to remotely threaten him.

Saying that Shunsui is just below those four in power. Uktitake to me is highly overrrated. Then agian, we haven't seen his or Shunsui's bankai yet.

KS is Aizen's shikai. It makes him sigificantly stronger than Shunsui and nearly everyone else. If Shunsui was truly stronger than him, he would have been able to hurt Aizen like Yama did. His Shikai is inferior, and his stats are lower than Aizen's, so obviously Aizen is the stronger of the two.

Raizen
May 04, 2010, 12:57 PM
There is a huge factor as to why those people are a big threat:
Yama is considerably stronger than aizen.
Isshin is not under KS
Urahara (well can't discuss since chapter is not out)

As for uki, yes we havem't seen much of him, but yama has stated he is just as strong as shunsui.

I never said that shunsui is stronger than aizen, nor did i say aizen was stronger than shunsui. I just said that in a fair fight where shunsui is not under KS from the beginning, there is a chance he can pull out a win. And stats don't mean much since they reflect each individual's limits. My limits could be higher than yours and with only 70% of my limit, i can beat you at 100%

En Yang Ji
May 04, 2010, 01:07 PM
- I just don't think Shunsui & Ukitake are on Aizen's level. If WW can one shot Ukitake, chances are he can one shot Shunsui too.

- Shunsui uses deception and cheap shots when he fights, that's part of why his shikai is so effective when he uses it. Against Aizen, or anyone on his level, Shunsui's way of fighting won't be as effective.

Raizen
May 04, 2010, 01:19 PM
^
1. WW brute strength is tremendous. He beat kensei w/ bankai with ease seeing as he had no scratches. And uki let his guard down b/c WW is a kid.

2. i don't see u bagging on aizen using cheap shots and dirty tricks. That is all part of his battle strategy

En Yang Ji
May 04, 2010, 01:23 PM
- Urahara sensed WW when his back was turned and he was fighting Luppi.

- The fact Shunsui uses cheap shots is one of the best things about him, it just that it seems he relies on them. Shunsui would have a hard time getting a cheap shot on anyone on Aizen's level.

Raizen
May 04, 2010, 01:36 PM
1. You fail to realize that uki has a soft spot for kids, urahara doesn't have that. Furthermore, in that little skirmish, there was smoke from urahara as well as some scratches.

2. A sneaky attack can only be brought on by your own skills and testament. Being able to know when to best attack is a skill in and of itself. And i don't see shunsui as relying on them. He is unorthdox and his characteristic is uncharacteristic, that has already been stated. Downplaying him b/c he takes advantage of the situation is wrong.

En Yang Ji
May 04, 2010, 01:53 PM
- When did Urahara get scratches from WW? Shunsui didn't see WW coming either, otherwise he would have stopped him.

- In his fight with Starrk, cheap shots aside, Shunsui only used zanjutsu and his shikai. Shunsui's games are only so effective. Kage-oni & Take-oni apparently need some type of deception or distraction to be effective. Iro oni is a double edged sword. Busuo Kuma is great, but even Starrk was able to counter the attack that followed..

- Shunsui's strong, but with just his zanjutsu and his shikai he doesn't seem to be on Aizen's level

kkck
May 04, 2010, 02:12 PM
^
1. WW brute strength is tremendous. He beat kensei w/ bankai with ease seeing as he had no scratches. And uki let his guard down b/c WW is a kid.

2. i don't see u bagging on aizen using cheap shots and dirty tricks. That is all part of his battle strategy

Resurreccion heals injuries so it makes sense we did not see any on him. Saying it was easy is a statement that lacks evidence. We don't even know if their fight was finished, for all we know once yamamoto intervened WW simply left.

Gran Maestro
May 04, 2010, 02:22 PM
Resurreccion heals injuries so it makes sense we did not see any on him. Saying it was easy is a statement that lacks evidence. We don't even know if their fight was finished, for all we know once yamamoto intervened WW simply left.

Kensei was defeated, otherwise we would have seen him by now. And if WW defeated Kensei's bankai without releasing, it's a testament to his strength.

freshseth83
May 04, 2010, 02:44 PM
^^Exactly. The naysayers downplay abilities of these two captains because they haven't 'seen' them do anything 'special'. Well if you think that Shunsui was really going all out against Stark you're wrong. And if Ukitake didn't have MORALS, that is to NOT FIGHT KIDS, like Lillynette, I'm sure WW wouldnt be able to impale him through the back.

Another thing that surprises me about this is that some of you are ignoring details. Like saying Shunsui HAD to use a cheap move to get Stark to play his game. What? Get real! Stark made a shadow and was in the game. Shunsui flew up to Stark (who is faster than probably any espada) and called out his color game and said gray! How is that using a cheap move to catch Stark in a game? Ridiculous I say. Did Shunsui use a cheap shot to catch Stark in bushogouma? The spinning top game? No. But since his sword, according to shunsui, wasn't in the mood, he didn't have success with that attack. Also to say he needed an opening to hit stark or had to have the 2 visoreds wear him down is moot as well. He was unscathed by their attacks, didn't have a scratch on him, and his wolves were owning those lames. Shunsui in one shot, stopped those wolves and stopped stark from killing the two visored captains. That doesn't sound overrated. And in the case of Ukitake, he doesn't sound overrated if he can stand against Yama with help from Shunsui. And like I said, Aizen uses cheap shots himself. Illusions to make your opponent believe they're hitting you when they're not, that's a cheap shot to me. For all we know Aizen hasn't stood against anyone face to face and been able to beat them. Everyone he's killed has been a product from his illusions. Isshin has pushed aizen to his limit without using a shikai. He hasn't let Aizen get the chance to use his KS. So were to believe that Shunsui and Ukitake if given the same chance as Isshin would let Aizen use his Illusions on them? I think not.

Raizen
May 04, 2010, 04:12 PM
- When did Urahara get scratches from WW? Shunsui didn't see WW coming either, otherwise he would have stopped him.

- In his fight with Starrk, cheap shots aside, Shunsui only used zanjutsu and his shikai. Shunsui's games are only so effective. Kage-oni & Take-oni apparently need some type of deception or distraction to be effective. Iro oni is a double edged sword. Busuo Kuma is great, but even Starrk was able to counter the attack that followed..

- Shunsui's strong, but with just his zanjutsu and his shikai he doesn't seem to be on Aizen's level
1. http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/234/17/
And it is harder to dodge an attack coming to you than saving another person from it

2. There is no deception. Kageoni can only be used if the opponent is close enough to the shadow to be caught (so air does not work unless the opponent is connected to something like ice). Takeoni is whoever is highest wins, but since the sword was not in the mood, the game was not played correctly. All of these games can be utilized at the best time for shunsui to take advantage of the situation

3. B/c he hasn't had the time to show anything else. His sword skills are already very impressive. And his shikai is very powerful. If u compare it to KS of course it will pale in comparison

Delbi
May 04, 2010, 04:12 PM
@freshseth, how you can think Aizen's abilities are cheap, yet Shunsui's are not is beyond me.

I for one don't think any of them are "cheap". A weapon is only as good as it's user, and both of them have incredibly powerful weapons that they use well.

The fact that Shunsui wasn't directly fighting Stark and that Stark was distracted kind of downplays Shunsui's feat. If they had fought 1 on 1 the entire time, Starks wolves could have torn Shunsui to pieces, and Shunsui would have never got the jump on him. However, if Shunsui would have released his Bankai he would have probably won.

Raizen
May 04, 2010, 04:15 PM
Resurreccion heals injuries so it makes sense we did not see any on him. Saying it was easy is a statement that lacks evidence. We don't even know if their fight was finished, for all we know once yamamoto intervened WW simply left.
As maestro has pointed out, Kensei is not one to back from a fight if he can still keep going. Furthermore, resurrection heals the injuries that is caused b4 the transformation. That means, kensei w/ bankai and possibly mask lost to WW in unreleased form
[hr]

The fact that Shunsui wasn't directly fighting Stark and that Stark was distracted kind of downplays Shunsui's feat. If they had fought 1 on 1 the entire time, Starks wolves could have torn Shunsui to pieces, and Shunsui would have never got the jump on him. However, if Shunsui would have released his Bankai he would have probably won.
He was directly fighting starks the whole time until WW appeared. Both starks and shunsui took advantage of the other's distraction, i don't see u baggin on starks. Furthermore, it was not like that one attack killed starks, in the end shunsui still had to fight 1-on-1 to beat starks. A testament of his strength. You say the wolves can tear shunsui to pieces, i say it won't. W/ bankai, it would be overkill

freshseth83
May 04, 2010, 04:51 PM
I remember back when the SS arc was taking place, Ukitake easily stopped Byakuya from killing Hinataro and Rukia. He was nowhere to be seen and just appeared. That's some world class speed if you ask me.

Things like this that seem normal, aren't normal, but great feats. Did you remember the look on Byakuya's face? These things seem to be forgotten, Ukitake is no slouch, in any terms of shinigami abilities. Especially considering he caught Byakuya, one of the fastest fighters, by surprise.

En Yang Ji
May 04, 2010, 08:52 PM
Shunsui may be stronger than I expected, him saying it's characteristic for him to be uncharacteristic, may mean he changes his fighting style as he pleases and that he has a lot more in store. His shikai is game based, so there's no telling how many games it has and he was alluded to having a strong bankai.

I'm all for Shunsui being strong, I just don't like it when people assume he's stronger than he appears to be. Shunsui may be able to fight on Aizen's level, but after his fight with Starrk it seems he at least a level below him. Shunsui seemed serious and Starrk seemed like a good match. Starrk is just as clever as Shunsui and has great abilities.

Still, Starrks level is lower than Aizen's and apparently Shunsui's level (with shikai only) is lower as well.

freshseth83
May 05, 2010, 07:28 PM
What I think is that it's still to be seen what level Shunsui and Ukitake are really on. Gran posted something about the mystery of those two and the words that Yama said. All in all he stated that it was said that even to this day, there has been no one to surpass or equal their skill. Yama has the say on who gets to be captain, so I'm sure he's seen and evaluated each captains abilities. When Shunsui and Ukitake went down in FKT, he yelled out their names. When have you ever seen him say anything about any other captain? Those two are clearly his favorite, they were the first captains under him, and according to him are unequaled. I don't think we got to see all of Shunsui's abilities. He got a good size cut from Stark, took a big cero right to the back from Stark, and still beat him by calling black. After that he stood against 'fake' Aizen until they were tricked. It wasn't like Soi-Fon that lost an arm, or Hitsugaya who lost all of his ice petals that limit his bankai use. Shunsui was the only captain besides Shinji that fought to NOT use Bankai. And on top of it all he beat the #1 espada. Imagine what else he could do if his sword was in the 'mood' from the beginning. Or even more so what if he used Bankai? Damn! We have yet to see any kido from him either. Except when he 'touched' chad, haha

Raizen
May 05, 2010, 08:21 PM
Shunsui may be stronger than I expected, him saying it's characteristic for him to be uncharacteristic, may mean he changes his fighting style as he pleases and that he has a lot more in store. His shikai is game based, so there's no telling how many games it has and he was alluded to having a strong bankai.

I'm all for Shunsui being strong, I just don't like it when people assume he's stronger than he appears to be. Shunsui may be able to fight on Aizen's level, but after his fight with Starrk it seems he at least a level below him. Shunsui seemed serious and Starrk seemed like a good match. Starrk is just as clever as Shunsui and has great abilities.

Still, Starrks level is lower than Aizen's and apparently Shunsui's level (with shikai only) is lower as well.
You contradict yourself. First u say that shunsui can fight on aizen's level then u say shunsui is a level below. What aizen got going for him that gave him the advantage was KS. There is no saying what would have happened if they fought 1-on-1 in a fair fight. I believe that it would be similar to isshin vs aizen.

And starks is very powerful and clever, that is what makes shunsui's win so amazing. Starks was a hell of a fighter, and he acknowledged shunsui's strength before shunsui even released

MegaX
May 05, 2010, 08:44 PM
You contradict yourself. First u say that shunsui can fight on aizen's level then u say shunsui is a level below.

No, he said that Kyōraku might be able to fight on Aizen's level. In other words, he's acknowledging that, while he believes that Aizen is a level above Kyōraku, there's a possibility that he's mistaken.


What aizen got going for him that gave him the advantage was KS. There is no saying what would have happened if they fought 1-on-1 in a fair fight. I believe that it would be similar to isshin vs aizen.

I don't know, I think Aizen is legitimately tied with Yamamoto and Isshin in power.


And starks is very powerful and clever, that is what makes shunsui's win so amazing. Starks was a hell of a fighter, and he acknowledged shunsui's strength before shunsui even released

True, but that doesn't tell us anything about his power in relation to Aizen.

poobert
May 06, 2010, 06:28 AM
Takeoni is whoever is highest wins, but since the sword was not in the mood, the game was not played correctly. All of these games can be utilized at the best time for shunsui to take advantage of the situation

@everyone who agrees with this It is completely not what I got from the manga.

I thought takeoni worked perfectly, which is why shunsui commented on Starks ability to parry the move (or the move before it, it doesn't matter).

Starrk asked why Shunsui didn't use the shadow game before, and Shunsui answered (specifically to this question) because the sword was not in the mood. There is absolutely nothing written about Shunsui forcing his zanpakto to use a move that it doesn't feel like doing, which is what you imply.

The game that is played depends on the mood of his sword, not the effectiveness of the game that is played.

But anyway, Shunsui is awesome regardless. I don't think he can fight on Aizen's level however, even without KS. Aizen is stronger,has more reatsu and is deceptively skilled. He was using danko as a VC, which makes me think he has been a shinigami for a lot longer than we think. I also don't think that his victory v starrk was that straight forward. Starrk made 1 mistake that cost him the match, and that is not keeping an eye on shunsui while fighting the vizard (which I can forgive). He was on his back foot from the second he got stabbed. Without the vizard interference, I think Shunsui would have been forced to go bankai, which would have been complete overkill. (shunsui+shikai is a 10, starrk would be an 11 and shunsui+bankai would be 90/100). Shunsui even commented that he may have to go to bankai. I believe this more than the dodgy circumstance that led to his death.

Gran Maestro
May 06, 2010, 08:11 AM
The game that is played depends on the mood of his sword, not the effectiveness of the game that is played.

I have several problems with this interpretation:

1) It makes games like Bushogoma and Takaoni useless because Shunsui couldn't put much pressure with these games and he might go bankai at one point but he was ready to take on Stark with Irooni.

2) Bushogoma and Takaoni were much better than Kageoni when they were fighting in the air (because Kageoni doesn't work in the air), consequentially Shunsui wasn't specifically talking about Kageoni when he complained about his sword's mood.

3) Shunsui said "KK can be such a pain to play with at times." This sentence implies KK wasn't playing at some point. If KK was indeed playing Bushogoma and Takaoni, there was no reason for Shunsui to complain about KK later. He played and he failed, fair and square, why would he complain about his inability to take advantage of these games? Is Shunsui incompetent at games other than Irooni?

4) If I suggest someone to play basketball and he says "No, thanks, I'm not in the mood", it usually means "No, thanks, I'm not in the mood to play at all", it doesn't mean "I'm not in the mood to play basketball but I can play volleyball or chess."

5) Shunsui attacked Stark while he was talking to Lilynette. Later Stark said "Not exactly the actions of a man who's confident in his abilities. That's not like you, Mr. Captain", implying that he was talking about Shunsui's sneak attack and Shunsui replied "I was actually planning on finishing you off with the first blow. I'm impressed you evaded it." Shunsui was obviously talking about his sneak attack, he wasn't impressed that Stark evaded the games.

6) On the contrary, Stark attacked Shunsui with his cero gun when Shunsui attempted to play Takaoni and Stark's attack was certainly unexpected for Shunsui, you can see the surprise in Shunsui's face. A cero attack wasn't supposed to be a surprise for Shunsui, there was something wrong with Takaoni. (Hint: mood problem)

7) Storywise, why didn't Shunsui explain his zanpakuto ability when he first went shikai? He could say "My zanpakuto turns children games into reality" and then explain the rules of Bushogoma and Takaoni when/after he tried to play them. He could reveal Kageoni and Irooni later, why didn't Kubo follow the normal course as with other abilities? Let me tell why: Kubo couldn't explain Bushogoma and Takaoni because they weren't working.

8) Ukitake realized that KK was not in the mood and he intervened because otherwise Shunsui might go bankai. But if Bushogoma and Takaoni were working, how could Ukitake know KK was not in the mood? The only explanation is "KK never plays Bushogoma and Takaoni when she is in the mood" which doesn't make sense.

Every hint in the manga suggests that KK doesn't play any game when she is not in the mood, she simply doesn't enforce any rules, so any attempt to play a game fails as with Bushogoma and Takaoni. Shunsui chooses a game and he gets surprised when the rules are violated, thus he understands the sword is not in the mood. This is why Shunsui says "KK can be such a pain to play with at times."

poobert
May 06, 2010, 09:13 AM
I have several problems with this interpretation:

1) It makes games like Bushogoma and Takaoni useless because Shunsui couldn't put much pressure with these games and he might go bankai at one point but he was ready to take on Stark with Irooni.

They did what they were supposed to do. You can't expect every game to plaster the enemy with a deadly attack. He was higher, so he fired off what was basically a wind style getsuga. That seems like a great game to me. It was Starrks power that knocked it away.

http://beta.onemanga.com/Bleach/374/05/

Read this again. He is talking about hiding the shadow trick. Shunsui then says, the sword just wasn't in the mood to play. It even gives an example of the games that it has already played, with no indication that they were weak versions.




2) Bushogoma and Takaoni were much better than Kageoni when they were fighting in the air (because Kageoni doesn't work in the air), consequentially Shunsui wasn't specifically talking about Kageoni when he complained about his sword's mood.

The topic of conversation was about the shadows. Read the chapter again.

"Kageoni. I wasn't hiding anything, she just wasn't in the mood." i.e. if she was in the mood, I would have used it.

Plain as day.



3) Shunsui said "KK can be such a pain to play with at times." This sentence implies KK wasn't playing at some point. If KK was indeed playing Bushogoma and Takaoni, there was no reason for Shunsui to complain about KK later. He played and he failed, fair and square, why would he complain about his inability to take advantage of these games? Is Shunsui incompetent at games other than Irooni?

If you win a game, you don't necessarily kill the enemy. For most of the time, it just seems to let shunsui pull off a specific attack. I didn't see anyone else hide in shadows or create swirly wind things. The statement he made just reads as "KK is a pain because it chooses the game we have to play".



4) If I suggest someone to play basketball and he says "No, thanks, I'm not in the mood", it usually means "No, thanks, I'm not in the mood to play at all", it doesn't mean "I'm not in the mood to play basketball but I can play volleyball or chess."

A sword isn't the same as a person. When you release it, it fights because it is yours. Whatever it may seem like, Shunsui is not his zanpakto's bitch. If he wants to use it, it is going to fight. It just chooses how.


5) Shunsui attacked Stark while he was talking to Lilynette. Later Stark said "Not exactly the actions of a man who's confident in his abilities. That's not like you, Mr. Captain", implying that he was talking about Shunsui's sneak attack and Shunsui replied "I was actually planning on finishing you off with the first blow. I'm impressed you evaded it." Shunsui was obviously talking about his sneak attack, he wasn't impressed that Stark evaded the games.

I will concede that. It does seem like he is talking about the first swing.


6) On the contrary, Stark attacked Shunsui with his cero gun when Shunsui attempted to play Takaoni and Stark's attack was certainly unexpected for Shunsui, you can see the surprise in Shunsui's face. A cero attack wasn't supposed to be a surprise for Shunsui, there was something wrong with Takaoni. (Hint: mood problem)

Or he was surprised the gun fired off cero's. He was also surprised that Starrk could fire ceros without a pose or pointing a finger or anything like drawing reatsu (even crazy ichigo had to draw reatsu to his horns before firing a cero, an instant cero is a huge advantage).


7) Storywise, why didn't Shunsui explain his zanpakuto ability when he first went shikai? He could say "My zanpakuto turns children games into reality" and then explain the rules of Bushogoma and Takaoni when/after he tried to play them. He could reveal Kageoni and Irooni later, why didn't Kubo follow the normal course as with other abilities? Let me tell why: Kubo couldn't explain Bushogoma and Takaoni because they weren't working.

Or Shunsui was being like he always is and trying to get in a cheap one shot kill. He did say that he tried to get Starrk with the first swing, and then tried to back it up with a game. Unlike other characters, shunsui doesn't blab a lot about his powers.


8) Ukitake realized that KK was not in the mood and he intervened because otherwise Shunsui might go bankai. But if Bushogoma and Takaoni were working, how could Ukitake know KK was not in the mood? The only explanation is "KK never plays Bushogoma and Takaoni when she is in the mood" which doesn't make sense.

he intervened because he saw it as a 2 on 1 fight and his zanpakto is made for reflecting ceros. No need to show off your bankai when a shikai can handle the situation.

The sword is a pain to play with because he is pushed around in the games he has to play, not because his zanpakto disobeys him and doesn't use its full power in a fight. The idea that his life is dependant on the whims of his zanpakto are ridiculous seeing that he should have complete domination over it.

--------

One more thing:
http://beta.onemanga.com/Bleach/374/06/
His sword decides the rules. It is not that he decides the rules and the sword has to be in the mood to play along. Deciding the rules is exactly the same as deciding the game. His first games would have done nothing at all if the rules were not in play (which are decided by the sword) but instead made that wind thing.

Gran Maestro
May 06, 2010, 10:06 AM
Read this again. He is talking about hiding the shadow trick. Shunsui then says, the sword just wasn't in the mood to play. It even gives an example of the games that it has already played, with no indication that they were weak versions.

The topic of conversation was about the shadows. Read the chapter again.

"Kageoni. I wasn't hiding anything, she just wasn't in the mood." i.e. if she was in the mood, I would have used it.

Plain as day.

But I already explained that playing Kageoni when they were in the air would be a disaster, how can Shunsui complain about KK's reluctance to play Kageoni when Kageoni is useless and any other game is much better in a given situation? Is Shunsui a fool that desperately tried to play Kageoni despite the fact that it would be totally useless? No, Shunsui was obviously not talking about Kageoni (and Kageoni only), he was talking about playing games, any game.


If you win a game, you don't necessarily kill the enemy. For most of the time, it just seems to let shunsui pull off a specific attack. I didn't see anyone else hide in shadows or create swirly wind things. The statement he made just reads as "KK is a pain because it chooses the game we have to play".

If "KK is a pain because it chooses the game we have to play", then Shunsui should have thanked KK for not choosing a useless Kageoni when they were in the air, he shouldn't have complained about it. Kageoni was totally useless until the moment Stark landed on the pole.


A sword isn't the same as a person. When you release it, it fights because it is yours. Whatever it may seem like, Shunsui is not his zanpakto's bitch. If he wants to use it, it is going to fight. It just chooses how.

I think Shunsui disagrees with you. Shunsui said "KK can be such a pain to play with at times", you don't say such a thing if you don't like the games that your zanpakuto chooses. Especially if your zanpakuto chose games like Bushogoma and Takaoni which were much more useful than Kageoni when they were fighting in the air.

And Shunsui can choose whatever technique he wants to use because KK is his zanpakuto. Every shinigami can use the abilities of his/her zanpakuto freely, this is one of the most basic concepts of Bleach. Aizen can create illusions whenever he wants to, Ichigo can fire GT whenever he wants to, Gin can extend his sword whenever he wants to. Likewise Shunsui chooses the game whichever he wants to play.


Or he was surprised the gun fired off cero's. He was also surprised that Starrk could fire ceros without a pose or pointing a finger or anything like drawing reatsu (even crazy ichigo had to draw reatsu to his horns before firing a cero, an instant cero is a huge advantage).

When your opponent has a gun, it's safe to assume that he can shoot at you.


Or Shunsui was being like he always is and trying to get in a cheap one shot kill. He did say that he tried to get Starrk with the first swing, and then tried to back it up with a game. Unlike other characters, shunsui doesn't blab a lot about his powers.

Shunsui explained Stark the rules of Irooni, Shunsui blabs about his powers like every other shinigami/arrancar, actually it's Kubo who explains us the abilities of zanpakutos. He didn't explain it before because the abilities weren't working at the time, otherwise there was no reason for Kubo to refrain from doing so.


he intervened because he saw it as a 2 on 1 fight and his zanpakto is made for reflecting ceros. No need to show off your bankai when a shikai can handle the situation.

Ukitake intervened because he tried to keep Shunsui's bankai a secret. He intervened because he saw that Shunsui was having problems but since we know that Shunsui is more than capable of handling Stark with his shikai when KK is in the mood, Ukitake obviously realized that KK was not in the mood.


The sword is a pain to play with because he is pushed around in the games he has to play, not because his zanpakto disobeys him and doesn't use its full power in a fight. The idea that his life is dependant on the whims of his zanpakto are ridiculous seeing that he should have complete domination over it.

When KK is in the mood, he is still pushed around in the games he has to play, what's the difference? And what's wrong with playing Bushogoma and Takaoni if they're working, what was the big deal? KK is a PITA when she is not in the mood, this can't be ridiculous because this is what the manga states. And you challenge the idea of complete domination by making KK choose the games.


One more thing:
http://beta.onemanga.com/Bleach/374/06/
His sword decides the rules. It is not that he decides the rules and the sword has to be in the mood to play along. Deciding the rules is exactly the same as deciding the game. His first games would have done nothing at all if the rules were not in play (which are decided by the sword) but instead made that wind thing.

Wrong. If I offer you to play chess, does it mean that I decide the rules? Shunsui chooses to play the game but the rules are decided by KK, this is what Shunsui says and they're certainly not the same thing. His first games did nothing at all, no rules were being enforced and that wind thing was nothing but a useless wind. If you believe the games worked, explain how exactly they did work. How did you understand they worked?

poobert
May 06, 2010, 11:15 AM
Wrong. If I offer you to play chess, does it mean that I decide the rules? Shunsui chooses to play the game but the rules are decided by KK, this is what Shunsui says and they're certainly not the same thing. His first games did nothing at all, no rules were being enforced and that wind thing was nothing but a useless wind. If you believe the games worked, explain how exactly they did work. How did you understand they worked?

Actually it does. If you decide to play chess, you decide to play a game with specific rules that make it chess. You don't play cards, you play poker or blackjack. The rules are what makes the game.

The wind thing actually seemed to act as a barrier. Starrk is plenty fast to dodge attacks. In fact he just dodged a surprise swing. The wind thing probably acted to contain stark for a second. Then Shunsui leapt up in to the air and was about to pull of another special attack which he could manage because he was higher, but was interrupted by a cero.

Shunsui does special attacks if he wins the game. The colour game seems to be the only exception in that it strengthens or weakens a swing.


But I already explained that playing Kageoni when they were in the air would be a disaster,

But his sword is not stupid. I have mentioned this before. The zanpakto is the spirit of the shinigmai. It wants to win, not screw up the chances of its user. When it is in the air, it decides to play the high low game. When the enemy steps on a shadow, it plays the shadow game. It plays what it thinks will enable victory.

I think that the sword dictating the game is much better than the sword refusing to work for its owner. Zangetsu doesn't all of a sudden decide not to work. Even Ikkaku's bankai doesn't do things on a whim. Its power increase is completely uniform.

-------------

Anyway, I don't really want to carry this on. He said that his sword dictates the rules and even he has to follow them. That is enough for me. I don't believe he could have created a swirly wind thing if his zanpakto didn't want to play that game.

But like I mentioned first. There are many people who disagree with me, but I just wanted to get my point across, which I believe I have now done. :)

Gran Maestro
May 06, 2010, 01:05 PM
Actually it does. If you decide to play chess, you decide to play a game with specific rules that make it chess. You don't play cards, you play poker or blackjack. The rules are what makes the game.

If I have the option to play chess, poker or blackjack, no matter which one I choose to play, it won't be me who is deciding the rules. Shunsui chooses one of the games the rules of which are decided by KK, Shunsui can't make his own games or establish arbitrary rules, this is what he said. Nobody would ever ask such a silly question: "Hey, John, do you want to play a game the rules of which were decided by me to be exactly like poker?" Kubo could simply make Shunsui say "KK chooses the game" but he didn't, KK doesn't choose the game, Shunsui does. (like every other shinigami)


But his sword is not stupid. I have mentioned this before. The zanpakto is the spirit of the shinigmai. It wants to win, not screw up the chances of its user. When it is in the air, it decides to play the high low game. When the enemy steps on a shadow, it plays the shadow game. It plays what it thinks will enable victory.

Good but then why did Shunsui complain? There was nothing to complain about, Kageoni was useless in the air and KK didn't play it, what was the reason of Shunsui's complaint? What difference does sword's mood make?


I think that the sword dictating the game is much better than the sword refusing to work for its owner. Zangetsu doesn't all of a sudden decide not to work. Even Ikkaku's bankai doesn't do things on a whim. Its power increase is completely uniform.

I think the mood of Shunsui's zanpakuto was a plot device that we'll not witness once again. It was necessary to create the impression that espadas were winning. Some people speculate that sword's mood is closely related to Shunsui's mood and there will be no mood problem if Shunsui really has to win.


Anyway, I don't really want to carry this on.

No problem. ;)

thornofcarrion
May 06, 2010, 01:54 PM
The thread is about Shunsui & Ukitake, not Aizen vs. Yama. Please stay on topic.

I find it hard to say Ukitake and Shunsui are overrated. Nor do I take current battle to measure their true strength. Like I said, comparing them to Aizen, doesn't make them weak. We saw everybody struggle against Aizen except for Yama, Isshin and probably Urahara (though I am not sure where he stands atm).

kkck
May 06, 2010, 11:19 PM
Saying shunsui chooses the game but not the rules is ridiculous. If I chose to play chess but instead the game is played like checkers, I am not playing chess no matter how I twist it. I would be playing checkers. If I chose checkers but suddenly I can't crown my pieces then I am also not playing checker, just a weird variation of it. If that no less than absurd interpretation is indeed acurate though, I'd love to see shunsui playing tag but it turned out the rules enforced were those of hide and sick and it was his turn to hide lol.

Worth noting regarding shunsui's zampakuto, it chosing the games does not necessarily make the games random. KK is an individual with her own tastes, biases and whims. Even if she were to pick the games at "random" I doubt they could be considered random in the true sense of the word due to that.

freshseth83
May 08, 2010, 12:52 AM
When people here talk about Zanpakutos and their owners, they communicate with eachother. Notice, I said OWNERS. Shunsui is the same, Ukitake is the same. They are in charge of their swords. The swords are a reflection of themselves. Shunsui, lazy, relaxed, laid back, easy going, not always into it. His Zanpakuto is the same. He isn't in the mood, neither is his sword. In the beginning of the fight he was fooling around with Stark. Stark didn't want to do any type of serious fighting, neither did Shunsui. But he had to. He explained after the battle to Love and Rose that when you are in a battle you're in the wrong already. It doesn't matter who starts it.

I don't see what is so difficult to understand about Shunsui and his swords. Katen Kyokotsu doesn't say when she wants to play. Shunsui and his swords are one. If he isn't in the mood, his swords aren't in the mood. He didn't want to fight, but HAD to fight. When he realized it was time to fight or else two of his former colleagues would die, he killed Stark no problem. That's not overrated. That's underrated, to take down the strongest Espada in just his Shikai. If everyone else had two or more people against one opponent or a bankai or a super hollow, and they BARELY won, why are we saying Shunsui is overrated? He didn't need those two loser vizards to help him with Stark. They got maybe two hits on Stark and did NO DAMAGE. Stark owned them with his wolves. In comes Shunsui and owns Stark with a Shadow strike and a hit from the color game. Two-hit KO.

Remember Stark's words? Why do I have to fight someone so strong? I was envious of the weak ones. Shunsui is no pushover. Ukitake isn't either. He stopped Byakuya from killing Hinatoro with Rukia back in SS. Plus sent Starks ceros back faster and stronger than they previously were. I cant wait to see more from these two.

MegaX
May 08, 2010, 04:05 AM
When people here talk about Zanpakutos and their owners, they communicate with eachother. Notice, I said OWNERS. Shunsui is the same, Ukitake is the same. They are in charge of their swords. The swords are a reflection of themselves. Shunsui, lazy, relaxed, laid back, easy going, not always into it. His Zanpakuto is the same. He isn't in the mood, neither is his sword. In the beginning of the fight he was fooling around with Stark. Stark didn't want to do any type of serious fighting, neither did Shunsui. But he had to. He explained after the battle to Love and Rose that when you are in a battle you're in the wrong already. It doesn't matter who starts it.

I don't see what is so difficult to understand about Shunsui and his swords. Katen Kyokotsu doesn't say when she wants to play. Shunsui and his swords are one. If he isn't in the mood, his swords aren't in the mood. He didn't want to fight, but HAD to fight. When he realized it was time to fight or else two of his former colleagues would die, he killed Stark no problem. That's not overrated. That's underrated, to take down the strongest Espada in just his Shikai. If everyone else had two or more people against one opponent or a bankai or a super hollow, and they BARELY won, why are we saying Shunsui is overrated? He didn't need those two loser vizards to help him with Stark. They got maybe two hits on Stark and did NO DAMAGE. Stark owned them with his wolves. In comes Shunsui and owns Stark with a Shadow strike and a hit from the color game. Two-hit KO.

Remember Stark's words? Why do I have to fight someone so strong? I was envious of the weak ones. Shunsui is no pushover. Ukitake isn't either. He stopped Byakuya from killing Hinatoro with Rukia back in SS. Plus sent Starks ceros back faster and stronger than they previously were. I cant wait to see more from these two.

Except Shinigami can't always control the mood of their swords. Ikkaku's Bankai always has to be forcibly warmed up, remember?

kkck
May 08, 2010, 09:54 PM
I guess I did make my post a tad vague but I stand by what I say.

Now, what you and a few others say is that shunsui choses the games but KK chooses the rules. I was first and foremost attacking the notion that shunsui could choose to play a game while KK arbitrarily decides when to enforce the rules and given the whole "KK decides the rules" what rules it enforces. The whole idea of shunsui choosing the game would be incompatible with KK choosing the rules given that if shunsui choose the game KK would have no say in what rules are in effect. It'd necessarily have to stick to a set of specific rules for specific games otherwise shunsui choosing a game has not plausible value. I don't expect KK to change the rules mid game but it if is indeed she chooses the rules she could as well do it on a whim. Not that I think shunsui chooses the games.

As for the difference between KK being in the mood and not being in it, I would expect it to be the same difference btween any other person being and not being in the mood for something. Someday someone might be in the mood for ice cream and someday that person might not want to hear a word about it. When starrk asked shunsui if he hid KO until shunsui sneaked on him, shunsui said he didn't and his sword simply was not in the mood for it. Logically, that means that if KK had been in the mood before he'd not have waited so long to use it. Now, whether the game can or cannot be played under certain conditions is irrelevant to KK's mood even if she is enough of a bitch to choose it. If a game does not work under certain conditions, all shunsui has to do is work it and take advantage of the element of surprise as he did many times against starrk. Even if KO would not normally work in the air, how hard would it be for shunsui to get closer to the ground? It would not be hard at all, there are plenty of ways for him to get the enemy closer to the ground. Luring or forcing the enemy to the ground is something pretty easy IMHO.

Gran Maestro
May 09, 2010, 04:50 AM
Now, what you and a few others say is that shunsui choses the games but KK chooses the rules. I was first and foremost attacking the notion that shunsui could choose to play a game while KK arbitrarily decides when to enforce the rules and given the whole "KK decides the rules" what rules it enforces. The whole idea of shunsui choosing the game would be incompatible with KK choosing the rules given that if shunsui choose the game KK would have no say in what rules are in effect. It'd necessarily have to stick to a set of specific rules for specific games otherwise shunsui choosing a game has not plausible value. I don't expect KK to change the rules mid game but it if is indeed she chooses the rules she could as well do it on a whim. Not that I think shunsui chooses the games.

If Shunsui chooses a game, why won't KK have no say in what rules are in effect? If I create a game, whenever somebody chooses to play this game, my rules will be in effect. My game, my rules.

Theoretically KK can make arbitrary changes in the rules of a game and for example, change the rules of Takaoni to Irooni's, overruling Shunsui's decision and making it essentially an Irooni game instead of Takaoni but this is like expecting FIDE to change the rules of chess to checkers for fun. Such a thing doesn't happen (expecting it is unreasonable) and therefore we can safely assume that we won't play checkers if we choose to play chess.


As for the difference between KK being in the mood and not being in it, I would expect it to be the same difference btween any other person being and not being in the mood for something. Someday someone might be in the mood for ice cream and someday that person might not want to hear a word about it. When starrk asked shunsui if he hid KO until shunsui sneaked on him, shunsui said he didn't and his sword simply was not in the mood for it. Logically, that means that if KK had been in the mood before he'd not have waited so long to use it. Now, whether the game can or cannot be played under certain conditions is irrelevant to KK's mood even if she is enough of a bitch to choose it. If a game does not work under certain conditions, all shunsui has to do is work it and take advantage of the element of surprise as he did many times against starrk. Even if KO would not normally work in the air, how hard would it be for shunsui to get closer to the ground? It would not be hard at all, there are plenty of ways for him to get the enemy closer to the ground. Luring or forcing the enemy to the ground is something pretty easy IMHO.

So you say that KK plays Takaoni or Bushogoma when she is not in the mood and plays Kageoni (and possibly Irooni) when she is in the mood. Because otherwise sword's mood would be irrelevant.

And you also say Shunsui could lure Stark to the ground, hide in the shadows and stab him freely even if Stark wasn't distracted. Am I right? Because if Shunsui can't do that, what good is Kageoni, what difference would it make compared to Takaoni or Bushogoma?

If KK is in the mood, it should be advantageous to Shunsui, right? How exactly is it advantageous?

[Edit] Or do you say "KK was in the mood to play Bushogoma, later it was in the mood to play Takaoni and later Kageoni. The sword is always in the mood for one game and not in the mood for others at any point in time." Is it what you understand from the "mood"?

kkck
May 09, 2010, 11:16 AM
If Shunsui chooses a game, why won't KK have no say in what rules are in effect? If I create a game, whenever somebody chooses to play this game, my rules will be in effect. My game, my rules.

Theoretically KK can make arbitrary changes in the rules of a game and for example, change the rules of Takaoni to Irooni's, overruling Shunsui's decision and making it essentially an Irooni game instead of Takaoni but this is like expecting FIDE to change the rules of chess to checkers for fun. Such a thing doesn't happen (expecting it is unreasonable) and therefore we can safely assume that we won't play checkers if we choose to play chess.
If shunsui is the one that chooses the games, then KK have no say in the rules because she MUST stick to the rules that are associated with a game. If KK chooses the rules, the shunsui choosing the games has no value because regardless of what he wants KK will do as she pleases. In other words, with the interpretation you are giving to this explanations there is a more than severe contradiction. The whole thing about being "reasonable" is irrelevant to this. There is no middle ground between shunsui choosing the games and KK choosing the rules, only one of them can be true.



So you say that KK plays Takaoni or Bushogoma when she is not in the mood and plays Kageoni (and possibly Irooni) when she is in the mood. Because otherwise sword's mood would be irrelevant.

And you also say Shunsui could lure Stark to the ground, hide in the shadows and stab him freely even if Stark wasn't distracted. Am I right? Because if Shunsui can't do that, what good is Kageoni, what difference would it make compared to Takaoni or Bushogoma?

If KK is in the mood, it should be advantageous to Shunsui, right? How exactly is it advantageous?

[Edit] Or do you say "KK was in the mood to play Bushogoma, later it was in the mood to play Takaoni and later Kageoni. The sword is always in the mood for one game and not in the mood for others at any point in time." Is it what you understand from the "mood"?

Why do you make everything so complicated? The sword plays whatever game she wants. It's not like it has a set of games it plays when it is in the mood and a set of games she plays when she isn't. KK plays whatever game she wants. In that sense, she played busho goma when she was in the mood for it, she played taka oni when she was in the mood for it, she played kage oni when she was in the mood for it and ultimately played the color game when she was in the mood for it. KK being in the mood is not necessarily advantageous or disadvantageous for shunsui. KK will choose a game and said game can kill shunsui as much as it can kill the enemy.

Gran Maestro
May 09, 2010, 01:32 PM
If shunsui is the one that chooses the games, then KK have no say in the rules because she MUST stick to the rules that are associated with a game. If KK chooses the rules, the shunsui choosing the games has no value because regardless of what he wants KK will do as she pleases. In other words, with the interpretation you are giving to this explanations there is a more than severe contradiction. The whole thing about being "reasonable" is irrelevant to this. There is no middle ground between shunsui choosing the games and KK choosing the rules, only one of them can be true.

So you think that if I suggest you to play chess, we will be playing by my rules even though these rules did exist long before I was born. There is no contradiction whatsoever, there is only your interesting concept that KK has no say in the rules even though she created those very rules.


KK plays whatever game she wants. In that sense, she played busho goma when she was in the mood for it, she played taka oni when she was in the mood for it, she played kage oni when she was in the mood for it and ultimately played the color game when she was in the mood for it. KK being in the mood is not necessarily advantageous or disadvantageous for shunsui.

LOL you did a bad job of expressing your opinion (or I didn't understand it) because I had no idea this was what you meant.

If your interpretation is correct (perhaps it is correct, the translations are obscure), I must say it creates some problems:

1) It doesn't explain the incredible coincidence of two Kageoni games at the only two occasions that it would work.

2) It doesn't explain why KK chose to play Irooni when Shunsui was ready and determined to take on Stark with his shikai. If KK did play Bushogoma or Takaoni, perhaps Shunsui would be forced to go bankai because they didn't do much good before.

3) It doesn't explain why Shunsui complained about his sword's mood, what was the reason of the complaint?

4) It doesn't explain why Shunsui doesn't have any control on his techniques unlike every other shinigami.

I know your opinion about these issues, I just say that if you're right, the way Kubo portrayed KK doesn't make much sense to me. I'll wait for Shunsui's next fight to have a better idea.

kkck
May 09, 2010, 01:48 PM
^^KK does have a say in the rules, she chooses the games :p

I don't think there is such an incredible coincidence. KK is indeed a weapon and also has her own personality, biases and preferences. She also happens to be present at the battle. The games aren't really random if there is an inteligent force controlling which one pops up -in this case KK-.

Busho goma did not seem like a move made to kill, rather simply to distract. Taka oni did not work because starrk shot shunsui. This shows the rules of the games are not THAT absolute while they do apply to some extent. That also makes sense considering that KK's reiatsu would have to be enough to utterly negate everything an enemy could plausibly try in order for the rules to be absolute to the extreme and that is kind of a strength between 3 people of the captain level.

Shunsui did not complain about his swords mood. All that shunsui said about the mood is that he did not use KO before because KK was not in the mood. He complained about being jerked/pushed around by it and it being spoiled and doing what she wants -which only makes sense if KK chooses the games-.

hakuthehedgehog
May 09, 2010, 01:53 PM
If you are saying that KK is intelligent and chooses the game that is best for Shunsui, then it is the same as saying that Shunsui controls it, since KK would always choose the best game for a given situation.

I think Shunsui would also complain about the swords mood if:

1. When KK is in the mood, Shunsui can choose every game she has to offer, otherwise he can't use it at all.

2. KK is in the mood for some games, and Shunsui can choose some of them, or then use none at all.

If KK chose the games randomly, then every time Shunsui fought, it would be a fest of random games.

kkck
May 09, 2010, 02:18 PM
I didn't say KK chooses the best game for a given situation. For all we know, she might actually disagree with shunsui regarding which game is best -they do have their own personalities and individuality-. We don't have enough evidence to argue exactly what parameters KK uses to decide which game she uses so I don't think we should get into that. I for one will stick strictly to "KK chooses the game at any given point".

Kaiten
May 09, 2010, 10:07 PM
Can't really say I'm much of Shunsui fan. Compared to some of the other captains he always seemed a little bland and uninteresting. His scenes with Chad in SS were pretty cool but when the arc ended he was not the captain I wanted to see more of. Didn't really care for his shikai either, seemed like Kubo was trying to hard when he thought of it, as though he were trying to make the ultimate epic shikai to please all fans. His fight against Starrk was boring in my opinion, like most of the FKT arc there was no plot build up to it, nor any reason for a casual fan to feel emotionally invested. Since he's one of the least popular captains in the fan polls I'm not sure we're going to see much of him again anyway. Ukitake I like more, not sure why. His role in SS was a little more robust, while I'd never describe him as a favorite I look forward to seeing him get a real fight.

That said I'm not sure where to judge them in terms of strength. They've been shinigami for something like a thousand years, were the first graduates of the academy to become Captain, of the Captains circa TGTP only Unohana and Yama were older, they trained directly under Yama, and were already shinigami when the Gotei 13 was founded. All pretty ridiculous stuff to think about. Experience alone puts them ahead of virtually every character in the series. Judging power levels in Bleach is pretty rough business though. At any given time someone could make some tremendously hyperbolic statement about anyone else, Yuroichi is the "god of shunpo" and Byakuya is the strongest Kuchiki ever for instance. Some characters have been shown using more abilities then others; Shunsui could be the greatest kidou master in the history of Soul Society but has not cast spell one nor has any mention of it been made outside of data books. So how do you compare his ability in this area or that better than someone or anothers if that character has done something in the manga that Shunsui has not. He's probably not been underrated as a shinigami or overrated. I have almost no clue what to say about Ukitake since we've seen so little of him in action.

DEATHBOTT
May 10, 2010, 12:14 AM
And you also say Shunsui could lure Stark to the ground, hide in the shadows and stab him freely even if Stark wasn't distracted. Am I right? Because if Shunsui can't do that, what good is Kageoni, what difference would it make compared to Takaoni or Bushogoma?

he doesnt need to hide in the shadow he could just stab it. i dont think he fully explained the rules for kageoni.http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/374/06/ says here he just has to step on his shadow to win. i dont see why he coulnt just jump into starrks shadow then when starrk lands to investigate, stab him then.

freshseth83
May 10, 2010, 12:49 AM
Can't really say I'm much of Shunsui fan. Compared to some of the other captains he always seemed a little bland and uninteresting. His scenes with Chad in SS were pretty cool but when the arc ended he was not the captain I wanted to see more of. Didn't really care for his shikai either, seemed like Kubo was trying to hard when he thought of it, as though he were trying to make the ultimate epic shikai to please all fans. His fight against Starrk was boring in my opinion, like most of the FKT arc there was no plot build up to it, nor any reason for a casual fan to feel emotionally invested. Since he's one of the least popular captains in the fan polls I'm not sure we're going to see much of him again anyway. Ukitake I like more, not sure why. His role in SS was a little more robust, while I'd never describe him as a favorite I look forward to seeing him get a real fight.

That said I'm not sure where to judge them in terms of strength. They've been shinigami for something like a thousand years, were the first graduates of the academy to become Captain, of the Captains circa TGTP only Unohana and Yama were older, they trained directly under Yama, and were already shinigami when the Gotei 13 was founded. All pretty ridiculous stuff to think about. Experience alone puts them ahead of virtually every character in the series. Judging power levels in Bleach is pretty rough business though. At any given time someone could make some tremendously hyperbolic statement about anyone else, Yuroichi is the "god of shunpo" and Byakuya is the strongest Kuchiki ever for instance. Some characters have been shown using more abilities then others; Shunsui could be the greatest kidou master in the history of Soul Society but has not cast spell one nor has any mention of it been made outside of data books. So how do you compare his ability in this area or that better than someone or anothers if that character has done something in the manga that Shunsui has not. He's probably not been underrated as a shinigami or overrated. I have almost no clue what to say about Ukitake since we've seen so little of him in action.

you're funny... he's more popular than most of the captains. more popular than komamura, more popular than mayuri, more popular yoruichi, and just as popular as ukitake. there was no hype surrounding these characters, just words from Yama who said their skills were unequaled. Weve seen one fight from Shunsui and you say he's boring? What about him is boring? that he doesn't have weak dialougue or funny moments where he's getting kicked in the face? You know it's funny to hear people say things they have no clue about, especially when a recent poularity poll put Shunsui at 17th out of the top 50. He's not as popular as Ichigo, or Rukia, or Orihime, or even Hitsuflamer, but he's more popular than every other captain besides Hitsugaya Byakuya and Kenpachi. Link here- http://chioky.deviantart.com/journal/21874802/

DEATHBOTT
May 10, 2010, 02:50 AM
you're funny... he's more popular than most of the captains. more popular than komamura, more popular than mayuri, more popular yoruichi, and just as popular as ukitake. there was no hype surrounding these characters, just words from Yama who said their skills were unequaled. Weve seen one fight from Shunsui and you say he's boring? What about him is boring? that he doesn't have weak dialougue or funny moments where he's getting kicked in the face? You know it's funny to hear people say things they have no clue about, especially when a recent poularity poll put Shunsui at 17th out of the top 50. He's not as popular as Ichigo, or Rukia, or Orihime, or even Hitsuflamer, but he's more popular than every other captain besides Hitsugaya Byakuya and Kenpachi. Link here- http://chioky.deviantart.com/journal/21874802/

lol you just told a mod he has no clue about his own opinion. nice.....

freshseth83
May 10, 2010, 04:19 AM
His opinion is fine, but to say he's unpopular is misguided. Being the 17th most popular character out of 50 characters is pretty popular to me. Especially considering that this poll was taken in 2008. Out of date you might say but not much has changed since then. He has received one fight, he beat Stark, that's it. Being 17th before he even had a real fight makes me believe he'll just improve his stock.

On top of that, Bleach wikia polls show that Shunsui is the highest rated captain in popularity. This might be mostly american readers but it's a lot of readers with over 5300 votes. Shunsui taking 1287 votes, or over 23% which put him first in terms of captains. http://bleach.wikia.com/wiki/Bleach_Wiki:Poll_Results

DEATHBOTT
May 10, 2010, 04:36 AM
His opinion is fine, but to say he's unpopular is misguided. Being the 17th most popular character out of 50 characters is pretty popular to me. Especially considering that this poll was taken in 2008. Out of date you might say but not much has changed since then. He has received one fight, he beat Stark, that's it. Being 17th before he even had a real fight makes me believe he'll just improve his stock.

On top of that, Bleach wikia polls show that Shunsui is the highest rated captain in popularity. This might be mostly american readers but it's a lot of readers with over 5300 votes. Shunsui taking 1287 votes, or over 23% which put him first in terms of captains. http://bleach.wikia.com/wiki/Bleach_Wiki:Poll_Results

oh yeah i agree with you about that he probably is one of the more popular captains, hes definatly my favourite. i do think he is hyped though, whether him and ukitake are deserving of the hype is the important question, i think he is.

freshseth83
May 10, 2010, 04:43 AM
I think he is as well. Even though Aizen cut him down, we have to remember it wasn't just Shunsui, it was Hitsugaya, Shinji, Soi-Fon, and others as well. I don't think Mr. Aizen is this godly character. I know he's strong but why would he be more powerful than guys who've been around as captains when he wasn't even contemplating his trickery? I just don't fall into hype over certain characters. Be it Shunsui Ukitake or whoever. I don't think any character is underrated or overrated. It's just the fans that make it seem that way. There's an explanation as to why Shunsui and Ukitake lost. Shunsui lost because he was in an illusion, and he was caught off guard thanks to Hitsugaya. Ukitake lost because of his unwillingness to fight against children.

Kyoraku Shunsui and Kuchiki Byakuya are my favorite characters though.

DEATHBOTT
May 10, 2010, 04:56 AM
I think he is as well. Even though Aizen cut him down, we have to remember it wasn't just Shunsui, it was Hitsugaya, Shinji, Soi-Fon, and others as well. I don't think Mr. Aizen is this godly character. I know he's strong but why would he be more powerful than guys who've been around as captains when he wasn't even contemplating his trickery? I just don't fall into hype over certain characters. Be it Shunsui Ukitake or whoever. I don't think any character is underrated or overrated. It's just the fans that make it seem that way. There's an explanation as to why Shunsui and Ukitake lost. Shunsui lost because he was in an illusion, and he was caught off guard thanks to Hitsugaya. Ukitake lost because of his unwillingness to fight against children.

Kyoraku Shunsui and Kuchiki Byakuya are my favorite characters though.
fans hypeing a character who is weak or vice versa is the definition of over and underrated.
as far as shunsui's strength compared to aizan's goes there are a number of reasons aizan could be considered stronger. 1st age doesn't equal strength, in 100 years shunsui said hitsugaya will surpass him. some guys are just more talented/gifted than others. plus the fact that we don't know the origin of aizan yet means he could be their age for all we know.
2nd his zanpakuto is extremely powerful like yama's its better than most bankai in shikai.

freshseth83
May 10, 2010, 10:20 PM
No, Aizen is not super talented. He has the Hoguyoku and the benefit of illusions. We don't know what to believe with him. When he did the level 90 spell back in SS to Komamura, it didn't work fully. If he were as skilled as yama, he would have pulled it off at 100% in it's effectiveness. Only Yama pulled off a 90 level Kido without incantation with full effect, even after he was burnt by his own flames.

You said fans hyping a character is making them over or underrated. I'm not thinking about fans in this thread. I'm thinking about the characters. Ukitake and Shunsui don't seem overrated. I don't think anyone with a captain position should be considered overrated. Some captains are better than others. And according to Yama, these two are better than all captains and shinigami. Shunsui didn't say in 100 years Hitsugaya would be better than him. He said he is a genius, answering Starrks question, and that maybe in a hundred years or so his Bankai would be stronger. http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/361/09/ (http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/361/9/)

Raizen
May 11, 2010, 11:27 AM
The author has not disappointed us w/ shunsui and uki. They have been shown to be as powerful as what yama has stated. Shunsui's feat is a testament to that. I want to see more of uki

En Yang Ji
May 11, 2010, 11:52 AM
IMO they are overrated by the fans. People seem to think others like, Shinji, Urahara, Yoruichi, Tousen, Tessai, Gin, and Aizen can't be stronger than them.

Gran Maestro
May 11, 2010, 12:08 PM
IMO they are overrated by the fans. People seem to think others like, Shinji, Urahara, Yoruichi, Tousen, Tessai, Gin, and Aizen can't be stronger than them.

Likewise Shinji, Urahara, Yoruichi, Tousen, Tessai and Gin are also overrated because people seem to think Shunsui & Ukitake can't be stronger than these guys, it seems fan speculation overrides manga evidence. :)

I've seen people who think Aizen can curbstomp Shunsui & Ukitake without KS. Really? Even Yamamoto's shikai didn't curbstomp them and a weaker shinigami with his unreleased sword will curbstomp them! Alert, alert, severe logical fallacy! :D

Raizen
May 11, 2010, 12:12 PM
^ i can easily say shinji, urahara, youruichi and them are also overrated by their fans. How can they be stronger than shunsui when they have yet to show any feats on the level of shunsui? It works both ways

En Yang Ji
May 11, 2010, 07:00 PM
Just because they haven't shown amazing feats yet, doesn't mean it's impossible for them to be stronger than Shunsui & Ukitake.

I think Shunsui & Ukitake can be stronger than all of them except Aizen, I just don't think that's the case.

freshseth83
May 11, 2010, 08:42 PM
then what is the case ki0? who's stronger than those guys? Actually, lets ask, who is more skilled? Because strength gets you only so far. This is brought out by Nnoitra. His desire to become the strongest did no good. He might have had the strongest skin, or toughest, or he might have been the strongest espada in terms of strength, but he was ranked #5, and lost to Kenpachi. Do you think Kenpachi could beat Shunsui? How would he stand against Shunsui since he's the 'strongest' Shinigami? You think that's all that matters as a shinigami is brute strength? How about Shunpo? Kido? Endurance? Intelligence?

Jushiro and Shunsui combine all of that together and that's why they are unequaled in terms of skill. Someone may be better at Kido, someone may have more physical strength, someone may have better shunpo techniques, but no one has all of the above in a package the way these two do. The only one I can say that will end up where these guys are is Byakuya. Because he uses all of it. Kido, Shunpo, intelligence, you name it.

En Yang Ji
May 11, 2010, 09:46 PM
- I probably should of phrased it differently. When I said strength I meant overall strength.

- There's other shinigami who have a wide range of skills and abilities. According to the databook Gin is an all-around type. Also he's a genius with a extremely strong bankai.

Urahara is one of the most complete shinigami in the series. He's one of the 2 most intelligent characters in the series, is great at kido, extremely fast, a master of hand to hand combat, and can use science to increase his combat capabilities drastically.

Urahara uses everything you mentioned, kido, shunpo and intelligence.

- There are other shinigami who are just as impressive as Shunsui and Ukitake.

DEATHBOTT
May 11, 2010, 10:26 PM
No, Aizen is not super talented. He has the Hoguyoku and the benefit of illusions. We don't know what to believe with him. When he did the level 90 spell back in SS to Komamura, it didn't work fully. If he were as skilled as yama, he would have pulled it off at 100% in it's effectiveness. Only Yama pulled off a 90 level Kido without incantation with full effect, even after he was burnt by his own flames.

You said fans hyping a character is making them over or underrated. I'm not thinking about fans in this thread. I'm thinking about the characters. Ukitake and Shunsui don't seem overrated. I don't think anyone with a captain position should be considered overrated. Some captains are better than others. And according to Yama, these two are better than all captains and shinigami. Shunsui didn't say in 100 years Hitsugaya would be better than him. He said he is a genius, answering Starrks question, and that maybe in a hundred years or so his Bankai would be stronger. http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/361/09/

the benefit of illusions is his zanpakuto the same way shunsui benefits from his zanpakuto. and he hasnt always had the hoguyuko when he has shown skill like blocking tessais kido. and i wasnt saying he is more talented than yama, yama is extremely talented, but he could have a natural talent because as far as im aware he is younger than yama. i doubt either shunsui or ukitake could preform a full power 90 spell with out cantation aswell. and the same way yama said shunsui and ukitake are skilled gin also said aizan is extremely powerful.

i dont understand what you mean by you are talking about the character. you are a fan and either you underrate, overarate or perfectly represent the character in your mind. i personally feel that you overrate shunsui and ukitake but underrate other characters but i still feel that overall shunsui and ukitake are deserving of there reputation. you propabbly feel that i overrate some characters and underrate shunsui.

freshseth83
May 12, 2010, 12:09 AM
My point was made when you said Gin talked about how strong Aizen was. We can believe Gin over Yama? So Gin not even knowing every captain or their abilties is more of a believable source than the Captain Commander? Who has to witness someone's Bankai and can gauge someone's skills in order to become captain? Blocking tessai's kido wasn't that hard. It was a danku spell, weve seen Byakuya use it plenty of times before. He used it against Zommari to block his Amore. It stops all Kido up to level 90(?) It's things like this that people say on here that makes their points kind of useless.

When you point out things and say one character praises another, but then when I point out the Highest ranking Character points out about the characters in question in this thread it's not correct? So what makes your points about Gin talking of Aizen a better gauge than Yama talking about Shunsui and Jushiro?

DEATHBOTT
May 12, 2010, 04:08 AM
My point was made when you said Gin talked about how strong Aizen was. We can believe Gin over Yama? So Gin not even knowing every captain or their abilties is more of a believable source than the Captain Commander? Who has to witness someone's Bankai and can gauge someone's skills in order to become captain? Blocking tessai's kido wasn't that hard. It was a danku spell, weve seen Byakuya use it plenty of times before. He used it against Zommari to block his Amore. It stops all Kido up to level 90(?) It's things like this that people say on here that makes their points kind of useless.

When you point out things and say one character praises another, but then when I point out the Highest ranking Character points out about the characters in question in this thread it's not correct? So what makes your points about Gin talking of Aizen a better gauge than Yama talking about Shunsui and Jushiro?

i dont see why they both cant be right, i mean yama couldnt have taken aizan into account. i dont question that shunsui and ukitake are talented, i beleive they are usually worthy of their hype. i dont get what you mean by you are not talking about the fans over or underrating characters because that is all there is. if you think people think shunsui and ukitake are worse than they really are than you would say that they are under rated. if you think people think they are better than they are then they are overrated.

freshseth83
May 12, 2010, 12:42 PM
because the topic of this thread is Shunsui & Ukitake overrated? Not Do YOU THINK they are overrated? Or Do PEOPLE THINK they are overrated? When this thread was made, these two had no real fights. Shunsui beat chad with a swipe of his swords but didn't want to kill him. That's not a good determining factor of his strength, and Ukitake managed to stop Byakuya by grabbing his hand when he was going to kill Hinatoro. I don't think either showed any type of 'hype' or feats of unrivaled strength back then. Until people heard Yama's words about them, no one considered they were the best captains. And after that, when this thread was made, those incidents were all we had to base our assumptions of them off of.

Raizen
May 12, 2010, 12:50 PM
Just because they haven't shown amazing feats yet, doesn't mean it's impossible for them to be stronger than Shunsui & Ukitake.

I think Shunsui & Ukitake can be stronger than all of them except Aizen, I just don't think that's the case.
So u are basing it on nothing but assumptions and disregarding our claims even though it is based on facts and manga evidence? :blink

En Yang Ji
May 12, 2010, 04:03 PM
What facts? Yama's statement? That's not a fact, because he could be wrong. As far as feats are concerned, most of the character I mentioned have more impressive feats than Shunsui or Ukitake.

Yoruichi was able to outrun Byakuya when she was carrying Ichigo and out of shape, after not fighting for 100 years. She also was able to beat Soi Fong without even using her zanpakatou.

Tessai used a kido that can stop time and one that can move space.

Tousen was able to stop Komumura's bankai bare-handed and take it out in one attack.

Urahara's is fighting a hogyoku empowered Aizen without even releasing his zanpakatou.



- The biggest thing Shunsui & Ukitake have going for than is Yama's statement and his statement is false.

Gran Maestro
May 12, 2010, 04:34 PM
What facts? Yama's statement? That's not a fact, because he could be wrong. As far as feats are concerned, most of the character I mentioned have more impressive feats than Shunsui or Ukitake.

Let's see.


Yoruichi was able to outrun Byakuya when she was carrying Ichigo and out of shape, after not fighting for 100 years. She also was able to beat Soi Fong without even using her zanpakatou.

Yes, Yoruichi is fast, so? Do you think the fastest always wins? Fastest espada Zommari was #7.

Yoruichi defeated Soifon (shikai), #2 Barragan (unreleased) humiliated Soifon (shikai), Shunsui (unreleased) held his own against #1 Stark (unreleased).


Tessai used a kido that can stop time and one that can move space.

So you say Tessai is Hiro Nakamura (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hiro_Nakamura) and he can stop time and kill anybody including Aizen? What's he waiting for? How do you know Tessai's time-stop kidou is applicable in combat?


Tousen was able to stop Komumura's bankai bare-handed and take it out in one attack.

Defeating Komamura's bankai is a much less impressive feat than defeating primera with shikai. Komamura is possibly the weakest captain.


Urahara's is fighting a hogyoku empowered Aizen without even releasing his zanpakatou.

Urahara's fighting a hogyoku empowered Aizen who doesn't bother to be careful, use KS or defend himself like he did against Shunsui and other captains. You're talking as if he fought Aizen and won.


- The biggest thing Shunsui & Ukitake have going for than is Yama's statement and his statement is false.

Shunsui & Ukitake survived a brief encounter against Yamamoto's shikai, Shunsui defeated #1 espada with his shikai, Yamamoto's statement outweighs your opinion because it's manga evidence, yours is fan speculation. You don't have manga evidence that supports your opinion at the moment. ;)

En Yang Ji
May 12, 2010, 04:57 PM
- The fastest espada was tricked by Yoruichi's shunpo technique. Also Yoruichi is faster than the shinigami who used her move on Zommari. IMO Yoruichi is not simply fast, but she is powerful. Shunko concentrates huge amount of reiastu in her body and enhances it. It allows her to use huge kido blast when attacking her opponent.

- Barragan was one of the worst possible match-ups for Soi Fon. His ability unreleased, slowed Soi Fon down a lot. When Barragan released she couldn't even get close to him, because of respira. Also she's mostly a close-range fighter. The only reason she was being beaten is because it was a horrible match-up for her.

- I doubt Shunsui could beat Barragan with just shikai. Also Shunsui win against Starrk was situational. Its was a hard won victory, that likely wouldn't of happened if there was no interference and Shunsui only used shikai.

- Aizen may of been careless, but that was only regarding Urahara's gigai trick and him not using KS.

- How do we know Komumura is weak? Every time he was beaten, it always was by a strong a character. Komumura's bankai is all about strength. Tousen was able to hold that off with one hand. Do you think Shunsui or Ukitake can do this with their shikai?

- Yama's statement was Kubo's way of hyping Shunsui & Ukitake, but that doesn't mean it has to be true. I take Yama's statement with a grain of salt and I take only to mean they are strong. Yama could be wrong, since he there was a lot of things he didn't know about.

- Your right about Tessai, though. His spells may not be useable in battle. I doubt that's the case. The incantation time for Tessai's forbidden kido couldn't of been that long, otherwise Shinji and the others would of become complete hollows.

Gran Maestro
May 12, 2010, 05:28 PM
- The fastest espada was tricked by Yoruichi's shunpo technique. Also Yoruichi is faster than the shinigami who used her move on Zommari. IMO Yoruichi is not simply fast, but she is powerful. Shunko allows her to use huge kido blast when attacking her opponent.

The point is you can't say Yoruichi is superior to Shunsui & Ukitake in overall strength just because Yoruichi is faster. Look at the total package.


- I doubt Shunsui could beat Barragan with just shikai. Also Shunsui win against Starrk was situational. Its was a hard won victory, that likely wouldn't of happened if there was no interference and Shunsui only used shikai.

I think Shunsui could defeat Barragan with shikai in a color game. Yes, the win over Stark was a hard victory but nonetheless it was an impressive feat because I don't think a lot of people would manage to survive against primera with shikai only. And the interference didn't help Shunsui much as I explained it in detail in my earlier posts.


- Aizen may of been careless, but that was only regarding Urahara's gigai trick and him not using KS.

The point is Urahara did nothing to Aizen that suggests he's superior to Shunsui. What exactly is Urahara's feat, to use Hadou 91 against an Aizen who doesn't bother to dodge and fail? Failure is not a feat. Shunsui stabbed Aizen but it was actually an illusion, was it a feat?


- How do we know Komumura is weak? Every time he was beaten, it always was by a strong a character. Komumura's bankai is all about strength. Tousen was able to hold that off with one hand.

So which captains are weaker than Komamura? I'd like to hear your opinion. Yes, Tousen blocked Komamura's bankai with his hand, so? Does it mean Tousen can defeat everybody who can't block Komamura's bankai with his hand? Komamura's bankai failed to defeat Kenpachi (with eyepatch), Kenpachi possibly blocked it with his sword unless you argue that Kenpachi was running away from Komamura, Komamura seems to be a low-tier captain.


- Yama's statement was Kubo's way of hyping Shunsui & Ukitake, but that doesn't mean it has to be true. I take Yama's statement with a grain of salt and I take only to mean they are strong. Yama could be wrong, since he there was a lot of things he didn't know about.

Why are we supposed to take Yamamoto's statement with a grain of salt? Is there any reliable statement in Bleach, are we supposed to ignore Bleach text? Yamamoto didn't say they were strong, he said nobody had surpassed them. (possibly nobody from Shinigami academy according to the context) Yamamoto's words stand until Kubo proves him wrong, we can't ignore it because if we will ignore manga, how are we supposed to have discussions?

kkck
May 13, 2010, 05:04 PM
You are severely downplaying everyone else to make shunsui look better. Shunsui got a free hit on starrk and got past the guns and wolves only because love basically took care of that-even if he was hit by the wolves-. Rose did not even participate for most of the battle given what we saw. Shunsui clearly had some issues against starrk's guns otherwise there would have been no need for ukitake to take part in the fight. I don't see how the wolves would have had a different effect on him had they not been used against love and rose before. While it is unquestionable taking primera with shikai is an exceptional feat, the part the vizards played in that fight was not marginal. I think it was more of a matter of what their abilities were, love could deal with guns easily and shunsui had the means to catch primera offguard with his games by taking advantage of the rules.

Also, seriously, the only one that lost his cool was hitsugaya, other than that shunsui, shinji and soifon went through the exact same distraction. In that particular moment shunsui has nothing over the ones that fell with him.

Raizen
May 13, 2010, 05:10 PM
You are severely downplaying everyone else to make shunsui look better. Shunsui got a free hit on starrk and got past the guns and wolves only because love basically took care of that-even if he was hit by the wolves-. Rose did not even participate for most of the battle given what we saw. Shunsui clearly had some issues against starrk's guns otherwise there would have been no need for ukitake to take part in the fight. I don't see how the wolves would have had a different effect on him had they not been used against love and rose before. While it is unquestionable taking primera with shikai is an exceptional feat, the part the vizards played in that fight was not marginal. I think it was more of a matter of what their abilities were, love could deal with guns easily and shunsui had the means to catch primera offguard with his games by taking advantage of the rules.

Also, seriously, the only one that lost his cool was hitsugaya, other than that shunsui, shinji and soifon went through the exact same distraction. In that particular moment shunsui has nothing over the ones that fell with him.
Let's assume for a moment that rose and love are basically similar in strength. Love got point blank hits on starks and didn't even scratch him, what do u think rose can do with a whip that slow?
Uki interfered b/c now it was 2-on-2. They are in a war, now that its fair, it is only logical that he interferes and finish the fight quick.
Love dealt with the guns b/c his huge club basically gave him cover. It was not as if love can take the gun like they were nothing. Shunsui took a cero and was not even hurt.

As for losing cool
Shinji lost his cool
http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/392/14/
http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/392/16/

Shunsui was the only staying calm and told hitsu to calm down

El Samurai Guapo
May 13, 2010, 05:42 PM
Not all shinigami's zanpakutou are the same though. Just because other shinigami skip straight to bankai when they fight there enemies doesn't mean they're weaker. Some characters seem to have really hax shikai while others have weak ones. A perfect example of this is Byakuya. Judging him by his shikai, I would say he's pretty pathetic. Byakuya's shikai seems like it would be useless for anything else but quickly taking out several fodder targets. However, Byakuya easily redeems himself with his bankai, which is totally amazing. Then we have characters like Soi Fon, who has a deadly shikai and a so-so bankai, which is why she avoids using it.

Look at Yumichika, he's a freakin 5th seat that can easily defeat one of the strongest VCs because of his hax shikai. Who knows how far that shikai could get him too, it could just as easily be used against a captain level shinigami. Aizen can take on like 10 captains at once because of hax shikai. Shunsui is obviously one of those characters with a hax shikai, so obviously he can take on stronger opponents without relying on bankai, but he's not necessarily stronger overall. I'm sure Soi Fon can defeat stronger opponents with her shikai than Byakuya could with his shikai, but that doesn't necessarily make her stronger than him, does it? What if she had been matched againt Starrk instead of Barragan? She may have defeated him in shikai, but even if she had done so, I still wouldn't declare her as more powerful than the other captains.

Toushirou is another one with a relatively unimpressive shikai. His shikai couldn't even hurt an unreleased Yammi, but we've seen what he can do in bankai.

Gran Maestro
May 13, 2010, 06:19 PM
You are severely downplaying everyone else to make shunsui look better. Shunsui got a free hit on starrk and got past the guns and wolves only because love basically took care of that-even if he was hit by the wolves-. Rose did not even participate for most of the battle given what we saw. Shunsui clearly had some issues against starrk's guns otherwise there would have been no need for ukitake to take part in the fight. I don't see how the wolves would have had a different effect on him had they not been used against love and rose before. While it is unquestionable taking primera with shikai is an exceptional feat, the part the vizards played in that fight was not marginal. I think it was more of a matter of what their abilities were, love could deal with guns easily and shunsui had the means to catch primera offguard with his games by taking advantage of the rules.

We've seen Shunsui keep up with Stark when they were both unreleased, this is indeed an impressive feat. Shunsui would go bankai if he thought he stood no chance against Stark's guns, he was obviously expecting something to happen, i.e. color game. And it seems Shunsui could still stab Stark in a shadow game even if Stark wasn't distracted because Stark had no idea that Shunsui had such an ability and he dodged Shunsui's regular sneak attacks but failed to do so against Kageoni. The point is only a few people can survive primera's resurreccion with shikai. Shunsui did it and nobody can say that it would be impossible for him without interference of Ukitake and vizards. It would solely depend on sword's mood, this is what the manga suggested.


Also, seriously, the only one that lost his cool was hitsugaya, other than that shunsui, shinji and soifon went through the exact same distraction. In that particular moment shunsui has nothing over the ones that fell with him.

As Raizen stated, Shinji certainly lost his cool. This page (http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/392/20/) makes it look like Shunsui was distracted because of Hitsugaya whereas others were obviously angry/enraged.
[hr]

What if she had been matched againt Starrk instead of Barragan? She may have defeated him in shikai, but even if she had done so, I still wouldn't declare her as more powerful than the other captains.

If Soifon did defeat Stark with shikai and Shunsui did lose to Barragan with bankai, I would certainly declare Soifon as much more powerful than Shunsui. How else are we supposed to decide who is weaker and who is stronger if we don't take indirect evidence into consideration? All strength rankings mostly depend on indirect evidence, I don't think the result of every fight is almost random.

Yumichika's shikai defeated Hisagi's unreleased sword but I'm pretty sure Hisagi can defeat him rather comfortably in a rematch. Hisagi didn't know Ikkaku had bankai but he still thought Yumichika was weaker than him (http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/326/05/) despite the fact that he knew Yumichika's shikai. Anyway, I agree that some bankais are rather underwhelming compared to shikais but still a bankai is a bankai, it's expected to be 5-10 times stronger (http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/120/10/) than a shikai under normal circumstances. Shunsui's bankai should be total failure to make his victory over Stark less pale in comparison.

poobert
May 13, 2010, 06:32 PM
Toushirou is another one with a relatively unimpressive shikai. His shikai couldn't even hurt an unreleased Yammi, but we've seen what he can do in bankai.

http://beta.onemanga.com/Bleach/231/16/

This right? Hitsu said his shikai was basically useless against Yammi.

There is something really dodgy going on with powerlevels here. Just earlier, Ichi sliced clean through yami's arm. Hitsu managed to use his shikai to good effect against Gin, the guy that could probably slaughter old yami without even bothering to release. Later, Hitsu is taking on Hallibel. The sheer difference of power between the old Yami and Halibell is insane. It is obvious that Kubo intended the espada to be much stronger than they were and changed them last minute (basically right after Uliquorra died).

But anyway, some shikai's like Shunsui's are disproportionally more powerful than others. This is a fact. However some shikai's generally don't give characters power or speed boosts. Shunsuis/uki's/Aizen/shinji/urahara's do neither, they just tack on an ability to they unreleased sword. Yama's gives him a power boost, and it looks like Hitsu's bankai gives him one too.

This basically means that dodging and sword fighting (speed and skill) are unaffected by releasing. Shunsui managed to keep up with stark, and that has nothing to do with the ability of his sword. Hitsu couldn't keep up with Halibel and obviously stands no chance against anyone higher, regardless of his zanpakto ability. Even with his bankai he couldnt get close to her. Shunsui could have done it unreleased, which is undeniable considering his shikai does not give him a speed boost (he probably however would have lacked the power that Hitsu's bankai had).

Shunsui matching stark is a testament to his skill and speed, not his zanpakto. imo him matching stark and even topping him in reflexes and sword fighting is more impressive than his victory which relies a great deal on the vizards getting in the way and his cheap shikai.

btw It also explains why some characters sometimes dont even bother to release. Shinji prefers to fight with his mask because it actually does something to his speed/power, unlike his zan which does nothing. Probably the same as Isshin.

-----------

tl;dr even if Shunsui's victory was to do with his cheap sword and the vizard, it doesn't remove the raw skill and speed he showed.

freshseth83
May 13, 2010, 09:43 PM
while i agree with you, there's something i disagree with you on. First i agree that it does show that regardless of Shunsui's shikai he is on par with Stark, and would be able to keep up with Hallibel Barragan Ulquiorra, etc. But saying his sword is cheap is like saying Aizen's illusions are cheap. Basically what is happening here is someone in shikai is more powerful than someone in bankai. Which is plausible since Shunsui is one of the first captains, according to Yama. The only reason he said he would go bankai is because his swords weren't in the mood. Or in other words, he wasn't in the mood. Why? Because Stark was b-s'ing him. He knew he could do more than just shoot ceros, but stark lied and said he couldn't. So when Stark finally does his release and just shoots ceros Shunsui pretty much deducted that Stark wasn't going to get serious afterall, even though he thought he would. And knew that a person with only such an amount of strength could be defeated with his shikai. This is a skill only certain captains posses. Other's go Bankai out of fear that they will be overwhelmed or their Shikai won't be enough. That's lack of strength. Every other captain went Bankai to defeat Espada. Shunsui goes Shikai to beat the PRIMERA espada. No matter how you look at it, Ukitake and Shunsui's skills are beyond that of the other captains. Ukitake was schooling Lillynette. She couldn't even get a cero through him, he swatted it away like it was a bug.

DEATHBOTT
May 14, 2010, 12:15 AM
As Raizen stated, Shinji certainly lost his cool. This page (http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/392/20/) makes it look like Shunsui was distracted because of Hitsugaya whereas others were obviously angry/enraged.

but the reason he was open was because hitsugaya charged.

freshseth83
May 14, 2010, 02:47 AM
Everyone was open because of Hitsugaya's charge, but no one made anything of it except Shunsui. The rest weren't aware or didn't think it was a big deal or something else, but Shunsui was the only one to yell for Hitsugaya to stop. At least he went out trying to stop the chain from being broken. So much for the others. There's lots of things besides that point that makes Shunsui an awesome character. Read chapter 362.

Gran Maestro
May 14, 2010, 05:18 AM
but the reason he was open was because hitsugaya charged.

It is unclear whether he lost focus because of Hitsugaya or because he was enraged. Only Shunsui was yelling to Hitsugaya, we can't see who others were looking at, Hitsugaya or Aizen. Actually Shinji and Hitsugaya seemed to be looking at the same direction (http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/392/21-22/). It's a fact that Shunsui kept his composure to some extent, Shinji wasn't in his best mind.

DEATHBOTT
May 14, 2010, 07:43 AM
so you think they were chargeing at aizan? they were becomeing tense because hitsugaya was chargeing.
[hr]

Everyone was open because of Hitsugaya's charge, but no one made anything of it except Shunsui. The rest weren't aware or didn't think it was a big deal or something else, but Shunsui was the only one to yell for Hitsugaya to stop. At least he went out trying to stop the chain from being broken. So much for the others. There's lots of things besides that point that makes Shunsui an awesome character. Read chapter 362.
yes because kubo's gonna make them all shout out "no hitsygaya" at the same time. anyway i dont see how this speaks out about shunsuis fighting skill he let himself become open to attack. but because he yelled out he is better than shinji and soi fon!!!

Gran Maestro
May 14, 2010, 08:29 AM
so you think they were chargeing at aizan? they were becomeing tense because hitsugaya was chargeing.

They weren't charging at Aizen but they didn't seem concerned about Hitsugaya either because they themselves were too angry to think of something other than their rage for Aizen. (at least Shinji) If you look at the last page in which Aizen cut them down, Shunsui was looking at Hitsugaya but Shinji was in front of Hitsugaya and facing Aizen's old location. Shunsui was open because he was trying to stop Hitsugaya, Shinji was open because he let his anger get the best of him. Shinji's earlier reactions also showed that he was furious with Aizen and he had totally lost focus.

El Samurai Guapo
May 17, 2010, 02:07 AM
What's the problem in realizing that the captain commander said things about these two that were accurate?

I don't know, maybe that so far what the old man said has yet to be demonstrated?

With all the hype about Shunsui and Juushirou's "complementary skills" you would figure that working together they would have crushed Starrk in four seconds. What happened instead? Starrk easily evaded both of their attacks, and they never landed a single hit on him. It wasn't even those two that pushed Starrk to get serious and bring out his strongest attack.

So far I'm more impressed by Kenpachi and Byakuya, who don't even like eachother; yet they are currently doing a number on Yammi, who's ranked higher than Starrk.

Cyven
May 17, 2010, 02:04 PM
In their defense, Shunsui and Ukitake weren't exactly "teaming up" in their fight with Stark. They didn't attack together, they more or less took turns. That's not much of a team effort if you ask me. Indeed, Kenpachi and Byakuya are performing better as a duo, but it's fairly obvious that if either of their attacks had a chance of harming the other, neither would care.

It doesn't really help that it's not yet clear how Shunsui and Uki compliment each other. Their abilities in shikai don't seem that compatible beyond Uki showing a defensive ability while Shunsui's decisively more offense-based.

Also, Ukitake's little comment that it's not "cheating" for him to jump in since Stark was aided by Lilynette interests me. Does that mean they have the same sense of honor as 11th squad? Or could it refer to Shunsui's shikai games penalizing cheating by the wielder? I'm not leaning towards one or the other.

Raizen
May 17, 2010, 02:40 PM
I don't know, maybe that so far what the old man said has yet to be demonstrated?

With all the hype about Shunsui and Juushirou's "complementary skills" you would figure that working together they would have crushed Starrk in four seconds. What happened instead? Starrk easily evaded both of their attacks, and they never landed a single hit on him. It wasn't even those two that pushed Starrk to get serious and bring out his strongest attack.

So far I'm more impressed by Kenpachi and Byakuya, who don't even like eachother; yet they are currently doing a number on Yammi, who's ranked higher than Starrk.
Are we reading the same manga? Shunsui and uki weren't even serious in fighting starks. Uki was joking around playing with him. Not ONCE did shunsui and uki attacked together. Uki only entered the battle for like a minute until WW came. And uki spent most of his time talking and joking around with starks

freshseth83
May 17, 2010, 03:57 PM
People read into things way deeper than what they are. Instead of realizing the teamwork wasn't really teamwork but Juushiro helping out with hundreds of ceros coming at Shunsui, they try to make up reasons that they didn't 'win' against Starrk. In reality neither one of them needed the other to beat Starrk. The only reason Juushiro stepped in is because he realized Shunsui wasn't getting serious. Even though he threw off his coat, Shunsui knew Starrk was trying to play coy and not bring out all his techniques. Shunsui realized Starrk was hiding abilities and even said he was a bad liar. Starrk stated he released because he wanted to see Shunsui's Bankai. What did Shunsui do? Go Bankai? Nope. He said no matter how strong you get if you're going to shoot off nothing but cero's... Then proceeded to dodge the endless ceros Starrk was shooting.

Another thing that posters here seem to forget what that it wasn't those two vizards that forced Stark to go and do his super move. It was Lillynette who talked him into showing his hand. Not those stupid vizard captains.

exacta
May 28, 2010, 08:58 PM
People read into things way deeper than what they are. Instead of realizing the teamwork wasn't really teamwork but Juushiro helping out with hundreds of ceros coming at Shunsui, they try to make up reasons that they didn't 'win' against Starrk. In reality neither one of them needed the other to beat Starrk. The only reason Juushiro stepped in is because he realized Shunsui wasn't getting serious. Even though he threw off his coat, Shunsui knew Starrk was trying to play coy and not bring out all his techniques. Shunsui realized Starrk was hiding abilities and even said he was a bad liar. Starrk stated he released because he wanted to see Shunsui's Bankai. What did Shunsui do? Go Bankai? Nope. He said no matter how strong you get if you're going to shoot off nothing but cero's... Then proceeded to dodge the endless ceros Starrk was shooting.

Another thing that posters here seem to forget what that it wasn't those two vizards that forced Stark to go and do his super move. It was Lillynette who talked him into showing his hand. Not those stupid vizard captains.

.....Are you kidding me? Um, no. Ukitake stepped in because Shunsui was about to get cinged. If he was dodging them like you said he was, then Ukitake wouldn't have stepped in, and the scene would've been depicted the way you described. Not with Shunsui running away complaining about how Stark's attack was cheap. If Shunsui was so above Stark, um why didn't he just stand there and dispel said ceros?

And the vizards indeed influenced Stark into going serious, since Love ended up smacking him into the ground because he started slipping up. Yes Lilynette gave him a pep talk, but if Love didn't land a hit it wouldn'tve happened.

I don't understand how people reaching the conclusion that Stark gave them trouble is reading deep into things, when all you pretty much have to do is watch Shunsui try to use an attack, get cinged by a cero, run from a bunch of ceros, fail again at pulling a cheapshot, then drop his guard and get cinged again, and watch Stark easily figure out Ukitake's zanpakuto, read Ukitake complimenting him, and then watch Stark figure out how to get by his zanpakuto's ability, and then proceed to dodge the cheapshot I mentioned before.

That's not reading deep into things. Thats called READING THE CHAPTER.

You saying Shunsui and Ukitake were "playing around" and that they were much stronger than Stark when such things were never stated in chapters( in fact Shunsui called Stark a pain in the ass in their second fight, and said that he was strong before he revealed his rank, not a weakling) is not reading deep into things either actually. That's just making stuff up.

Honestly, I don't like this......I really like Shunsui, but because all of his fans and fans of other characters keep on ignoring what actually happens and twisting it in such a way that makes their favorite character look cooler, it takes away from my like for Shunsui and other characters, because people reading the chapters and changing canon starts to get a little annoying.

Hystzen
May 31, 2010, 07:08 PM
the main trouble i have with shunsui is if he gets another fight say a VL n loses people will either
1. claim he wasent fighting serious
2. his shikai wasent in mood
3. he couldnt be bothered to use bankai

it seems him been lazy n having a tempramental shikai means it will be a excuse for shunsui if he should lose. and i he does a team attack with uki and still loses people will come up with some other excuse.

but hey thats what been a fan is really :D

El Samurai Guapo
May 31, 2010, 11:40 PM
the main trouble i have with shunsui is if he gets another fight say a VL n loses people will either
1. claim he wasent fighting serious
2. his shikai wasent in mood
3. he couldnt be bothered to use bankai

it seems him been lazy n having a tempramental shikai means it will be a excuse for shunsui if he should lose. and i he does a team attack with uki and still loses people will come up with some other excuse.

but hey thats what been a fan is really :D

The next time Shunsui fights he will definitely use his bankai. Same with all the other captains and vaizards who have yet to use theirs. Their bankais have been saved for their final fights.

niblack89
May 31, 2010, 11:55 PM
Shunsui & Ukitake are powerful but it would seem that Yoruichi, Urahara and Isshin are the few who are actually on Aizen's power level. Maybe the two of them together could take out Aizen but apart they seem to be strong but not as powerful as Aizen. Given the fact that Hitsugaya did distract him from Aizen's attack, still he should have been able to counter.

Isshin easily out powered Aizen put Aizen on the defense for once. Yoruichi put several holes in Aizen's body, Urahara made Aizen's spirit energy seal and explode, the only person who Aizen claimed to be his equal to in smarts, He can even keep up with Aizen's speed before hougyoku even making that portable gegai.

Yamamoto claimed to be the strongest soul societies had but these 3 are making regular Aizen who was a god among soul reapers the guy who himself took out all of soul soviet look average.

freshseth83
June 01, 2010, 04:22 PM
Thing is people are saying the current 3 captains are on Aizen's level, but they aren't dealing with a KS using Aizen. So until we put those 3 where the other captains were, against the KS using Aizen, we can't say they are stronger.

If you think about it, Shunsui and Shinji and Soi-Fon along with Hitsugaya could hit Aizen if he wasn't using KS. He's welcoming the attacks on the current 3 and so far it hasn't done much. So how can we say they are 'stronger' than Captains like Shunsui. If we recall, Aizen waited for them to be 'all open' to strike them down. Why were they open? Seems to me that Hitsugaya broke the line or the formation they had. Shunsui yelled to him but it was too late.

Sad what impatience gets you. I look forward to Shunsui and Juushiro redeeming themselves.

soopaman
June 17, 2010, 08:39 PM
this is irrelevant to the chapter but i'm hoping someone can shed some light on this...

is it me or Shunsui only goes shikai when the person he's fighting powers up. I remember something along the lines of the games of his shikai can only be played when someone with same energy level is in area. Does it mean he's that strong without his shikai? From what I remember, when fighting aizen, he only shikai after aizen powered up to freeze soifon's attack and pretty much the same thing when he fought stark.

conn-man
November 06, 2010, 11:18 AM
My thoughts on these two is that they are both high tier, but they are not equals.

Of the two shunsui is a stronger fighter. He has the offensive techniques and the offensive mindset. Ukitake over time seems to have become a man who has no heart for violence and shunsui being his best friend seems to have also developed this ideal, but he still is the more dangerous of the two which is why he will always bite the bullet and fight for his friend who he knows hates violence.

Even still ukitake is no push over, handing starks cero with so much ease and precision shows a lot. I would like to see a VC with the same shikai do that, like a person lifting to much weight and loosing control. Ukitake could handle the weight of starks power.

En Yang Ji
May 20, 2011, 05:46 PM
Yama said this "...and when it came to battle you both were transcendent. No one could match either of you".

With that being the case I think Shunsui and Ukitake are only overrated by the fans.

Miyagi
May 20, 2011, 06:35 PM
I don't remember seeing this thread, a hidden gem. lol

I don't think Shunsui and Ukitake are overrated, not by many. Ok, perhaps Ukitake is overrated but Shunsui is definitely not. lol

There's no single character that isn't overrated by some fans because when you like a certain character, your brain starts to work in a certain way that exaggerates the pros and ignores the cons of that character. Being truly impartial is impossible but I can say most people are hardly zealots. lol

IMHO Shunsui is high tier along with guys like Shinji, Urahara and Isshin. They are right below Yamamoto and Aizen who are (were) in a class of their own. Kubo said Shunsui's bankai could take on Aizen, I expect it to be something ultra-hax. lol Ukitake doesn't have any feats yet, so I'll wait and see what he has in store for us. His shikai isn't as hax as Shunsui's if reflecting energy attacks is all he has got.

En Yang Ji
May 20, 2011, 06:39 PM
Like you said, it seems there are those who believe since he said what he said not only are Shunsui and Ukitake are strongest (excluding Yama, Ichigo and Aizen), but they are a level above the like of Urahara, Isshin, and Yoruichi.

Miyagi
May 20, 2011, 07:07 PM
I don't agree with people who say Shunsui is a class above Urahara and Isshin, IMHO these guys are all pretty strong and evenly matched. Ukitake seems to be weaker due to his illness and poor performance in FKT but I'll reserve my judgment until he beats up someone. (If he ever will. lol) I think we shouldn't take Yamamoto's words too literally, IMHO what he says is that Shunsui and Ukitake aren't your average captains, that's it.

thornofcarrion
November 23, 2011, 01:17 AM
Ukitake :wtf...well, what do you think about Ukitake now? Is he a bad guy or a good soul?

freshseth83
July 15, 2012, 06:10 PM
Been a long time, but now that I'm back (somewhat) I revisited this thread because of the updated information from Kubo's comments before this 'final arc' on Shunsui and Juushiro. He said something along the lines of Ukitake 'getting better'. And also said that information on Shunsui's bankai and his pink hayori would be shwon. Any speculators?

Miyagi
July 16, 2012, 03:51 AM
Are you referring to Ukitake's strength? Because in Repeat & Reboot Kubo said that he was as ill as before:


Q: Is Ukitake’s illness the same as it was before?
Kubo: Yes. (laughs)
Q: No change?
Kubo: That’s right. But although Ukitake and Shunsui haven’t changed much outwardly, they have changed somewhat in their hearts after the battles with Aizen.

We'll definitely see Shunsui's bankai in this final arc, Kubo hinted that it might be powerful enough to take on even Aizen, which made me even more intrigued. The captains can't use their bankais due to bankai-stealing device at the moment, I guess it'll take a while before we get to this point. Ever since we saw Irooni (Colorful Demon), I thought Shunsui's pink haori had something to do with it but it seems it has some sort of history behind it, which means Kubo is planning to reveal more information about Shunsui and develop the character.

drzcoyotex3
July 16, 2012, 07:20 AM
Are you referring to Ukitake's strength? Because in Repeat & Reboot Kubo said that he was as ill as before:



We'll definitely see Shunsui's bankai in this final arc, Kubo hinted that it might be powerful enough to take on even Aizen, which made me even more intrigued. The captains can't use their bankais due to bankai-stealing device at the moment, I guess it'll take a while before we get to this point. Ever since we saw Irooni (Colorful Demon), I thought Shunsui's pink haori had something to do with it but it seems it has some sort of history behind it, which means Kubo is planning to reveal more information about Shunsui and develop the character.

Can you link me to that please? When did Kubo say such a thing about shunsuis bankai. He has always been my favorite character for some reason, I never get enough of him though.

Miyagi
July 16, 2012, 10:01 AM
Can you link me to that please? When did Kubo say such a thing about shunsuis bankai. He has always been my favorite character for some reason, I never get enough of him though.

He said that on Japanese TV show Jump!Bang.

http://bleachness.livejournal.com/497461.html

Hakuteiken
July 24, 2012, 12:25 PM
I thought of a theory where Shunsui's bankai is turning a child's nightmare into reality, maybe by unsightly figures. I can't see its power being as excessive and dangerous as Ryuujin Jakka, so, maybe it has got some sort of psychological effect on the opponents. I don't know, why else Ukitake would suggest him not to go bankai in an important battle? It's not like they're anywhere near Ikkaku or Yumichika in terms of personality, so, it's just a weak perception of mine, anyway (=

I expect Ukitake to go bankai, as well. Even though he has stamina issues going along, throughout all manga, little has been given away related to him. But even in shikai, he should be doing better than some of other captains, with Sogyo no Kotowari's attack reflection skill. I hope he doesn't end up dying, though. He's without a doubt the most lovable figure amongst the entire shinigami world.