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Hystzen
April 16, 2010, 10:18 AM
we know the vizards only allies for ichigo but what if they decide to take there revenge on the SS for beign kicked out and what if they conviced other allies. there intresting match ups only thing are vizards is how good they fight in team


rules:

1.Yama not in fight for SS
2. Battle in SS (home turf advantage for SS)
3. Captains only for SS
4. Vizards HAICI CAN NOW BE IN FIGHT vizards need healer/kido user

as been noted vizards have less numbers so to add it up will be adding URAHARA YOURCHI AND TESSAI TO TEAM VIZARD this should make things more intresting

this is a different from one opended before as the main prob was the numbers so this is new one if a mod can delelte or merge the other one to stop confusion be very appreciated thank you

En Yang Ji
April 16, 2010, 12:44 PM
In one-on-one fights or in a team battle, the outcast would probably win.

Yoruichi could take out Soi Fong pretty quickly. Tessai's high level kido's can OHKO mid level captains. Shinji could beat Shunsui more times than not. With that, the rest of them can gang up on the Gotei 13. The biggest threats are Soi Fong and Mayuri.

Mayuri poison would effect his teammates if they were too close. Also even if he can take out 1 outcast most of them can take him out in a straight fight.

- Instead of the Vizard VCs fighting one-on-one battles against a captain, they all can gang up on a captain from the beginning.

If they fight in team battles from the beginning, the outcast have even more of an advantage. Shinji could put the Gotei 13 under his shikai's effect. Yoruichi and Shinji could speed blitz them. Tessai can essentially teleport by moving space and stopping time. He could OHKO his opponents with high level kido or bind them with high level bakudo. The rest of them can gang up on the Gotei 13.

kkck
April 16, 2010, 12:48 PM
I think tessai could do a tad more than just sealing mid level captains. Hachi, being a former VC level thingy seemed perfectly capable of sealing even captain level guys. Tessai was his superior and something like a captain.

hakuthehedgehog
April 16, 2010, 12:55 PM
IMO Mayuri could just mass poison all of the persons present in the area, thus killing them all (except maybe Urahara).
Then, he could give the antidote to his comrades while all of them ganged up on Urahara, killing him.

Hystzen
April 16, 2010, 12:56 PM
what makes you find all the vizards and urahara crew will just let mayuri poison them :D

hakuthehedgehog
April 16, 2010, 01:00 PM
what makes you find all the vizards and urahara crew will just let mayuri poison them :D

How can they stop it? He just needs to say bankai and that giant thing just spreads poison to a very large area.
Even if that doesn't work, don't forget the spirit of the gotei is to defeat a great enemy, even with great sacrifice, so Hitsugaya's ice petals attack should also kill almost every fight present, with Hitsugaya remaining, which counts as a win for Gotei (I'm sure there are somethings that could stop that OP attack, but tired opponents shouldn't be able to stop it)

Hystzen
April 16, 2010, 01:04 PM
How can they stop it? He just needs to say bankai and that giant thing just spreads poison to a very large area.
Even if that doesn't work, don't forget the spirit of the gotei is to defeat a great enemy, even with great sacrifice, so Hitsugaya's ice petals attack should also kill almost every fight present, with Hitsugaya remaining, which counts as a win for Gotei (I'm sure there are somethings that could stop that OP attack, but tired opponents shouldn't be able to stop it)

yoruchi fastest character he will get to ba then get a punch in the face.

hakuthehedgehog
April 16, 2010, 01:09 PM
yoruchi fastest character he will get to ba then get a punch in the face.

Yeah, and one punch is going to defeat Mayuri, with all the characters around.
It's not like he can't just put a barrier protecting him and then use Bankai afterwards.

poobert
April 16, 2010, 01:40 PM
Hacchi and Mashiro are enough to take out Mayuri. Hacchi is not a fighter, but with hollow kido, he can easily contain a shinigami. His barriers are impenetrable by shinigmai arts. Coupled with the sexy Mashiro, with her legs of steel and super mask, she can out run Mayuri and kick him in the face.

Tessai used to train with Urahara and Yoruichi. It is implied that he was in the assassination squad and we know that he has huge physical strength. He is fast, strong and has the best kido out of everyone, except maybe Hacchi's hollow kido. He could take on anyone and win, except maybe Shunsui and Uki. Ken and SoiFon would probably put up a good fight too, but Yoruichi and Kensei can handle them.

The only wild card is Unohana. We STILL don't know what she can actually do.

En Yang Ji
April 17, 2010, 08:27 PM
Does anybody think SS can win? IMO the only way SS will win is if they Yama.

kkck
April 17, 2010, 08:33 PM
I think the main problem here are the weak links. Hiyori, risa and mashiro are strong without a doubt and their mask would allow them to fight with the captains but I think they might still be a tad weak. I could see them keeping up with a captain using shikai -this would vary a tad depending on the captain though- if they use their mask and shikai -mashiro apparently prefers hand to hand combat though- but keeping up with the bankai of a captain is an entirely different story. For instance, the three of them could certainly be able to keep up with komamura but the second he pulls out his bankai he would curbstone them in a second. Anyways, I don't see any of them actually defeating a captain.

En Yang Ji
April 17, 2010, 08:48 PM
I think the vizards VC can hold their own against the captains with weaker physical capabilities, if they gang up on them. Lisa was able to hold off a released Harribel for a little while and Mashiro was able to fight WW for a short time.

kkck
April 17, 2010, 09:05 PM
Well, WW is kind of a wildcard even now -his power level did not seem that constant- while liza did keep up with harribel but she also had hiyori and hitsugaya with her. Without a doubt a feat but I would also question whether they had it in them to keep up with captains while they are alone. At least them keeping up with shunsui, byakuya, soifon and kempachi should be outright out of question IMHO-gin would also be there but I am not sure whether he is counted here-.

zimbardo
April 17, 2010, 09:13 PM
After reading the above comments this discussion seems to be less on the Visards vs Soul Societies captains, but more about Yourichi, Urahara, Tessai and Shinji (and the rest of the Visards) against SS. The addition of these three is not about evening up the numbers, as these three then become 3 out of the top 4 members of their team.
The problem is that 3 of the suspected strongest people in the bleach universe have been added into the fight on one side, to even things out. However in return they grossly unballance the odds and make most of the visards contributions pale in comparrison.
Taking them in order - Urahara: Little is known of his power level, however many people believe him to be up there with the top (some even as powerful as Aizen). This is also added to by his incredible knowledge and intelligence.
Then we Have Yoruichi: The fastest character in bleach - someone who can put Byakuya (and possibly also Soifong) to shame in terms of speed and hand to hand combat.
Finally Tessai - Head of the Kido corps, this guy was (or possibly still is) number one at kido when people like Shunsui and Ukitake were around. (Team Visard also has the kido corps vice captain also.....)
These three are far too formidable in my opinion.
Another problem with this fight is that the abilities of soul societies heavy hitters is not fully known either. By this I mean Shunsui (sure we know his shikai, but still he has not been shown fighting seriously in the manga that often), Ukitake (even less has been seen from this guy), and Unohana (I include her in this list as it has been suggested she is as strong as Shunsui and Ukitake, however nothing has been seen from her at all).
I'd probably give this fight to the outcasts, but only because of the introduced characters.
In my opinion (and going by fighting styles/abilities)
Yoruichi > Soifong
Urahara > Mayuri (judged by intelligence as little has been seen from his combat abilities)
Tessai = Byakuya (it was hard to thing of any other captain who used kido as much. Tessai wins kido, Byakuya wins swordplay. Although Byakuya is probably quicker also, kido is highly formidable and Tessai probably knows some kido to help even out this disadvantage)
This leaves all the visards (8 of them) still to fight and only Shunsui, Ukitake, Unohana, Kenpachi, Komamura and Hitsuguya left.
Now I think that Shunsui could take Shinji as both their shikai's seem somewhat hax and Shunsui is suggested to be stronger in abilities (from Yamamoto at least).
Kensai/Love against Kenpachi seems like a good fight as all three seem to fight like brutes or thugs.
The other one could fight Komamura maybe (though I am not sure he would win).
Ukitake could probably beat anyone who is left - so I will have him take out Rose (the strongest person left in my opinion).
That would leave Lisa, Hachi, Hyori and Mashiro against Unohana (who we have no knowledge on whatsoever) and Hitsuguya.
If everyone wins the fights as I have written above - then the winners move on to fight other people - SS will quickly become outnumbered.

AlB
April 24, 2010, 10:50 AM
vizards don't even need Urahara and Co. while shinji disorients entire gotei sissy's with his fart sakanade. others will do quick work of everyone: (once again, assume gotei fighters are disoriented)

Love says "green" and bye-bye shunsui!!!
Kensei beats the crap out of Kenpachi
Mashiro pwns Byakuya. yes, she is faster than byakuya, face it, read manga
Rose deals with Mayuri. and Lisa and Hiyori go against Histugaya.
Soifon will be dealt with by shinji while Hachi keeps unohana at bay. then Shinji will help out Hachi against Unohana

Ukitake and Komamura aren't even worth mentioning. complete disgraces. they will be the first to fall.

with Urahara, Yoruichi and Tessai on Vizard side Gotei woul be annihilated in a couple of seconds

Random101
April 24, 2010, 12:59 PM
Shunsui doesn't have any green on him. Whatsoever. His attack does nothing.

AlB
April 24, 2010, 01:11 PM
Shunsui doesn't have any green on him. Whatsoever. His attack does nothing.

but Love is all in green u know. btw, stark also didn't have any black when shunsui said "black" and offed him

Random101
April 24, 2010, 01:31 PM
Hollow hole, and I think the fringes on his cloak too, though I'd have to see the blasted thing in color to be sure. Notice it started cracking around the hole regardless though.

El Samurai Guapo
April 24, 2010, 07:39 PM
Hollow hole, and I think the fringes on his cloak too, though I'd have to see the blasted thing in color to be sure. Notice it started cracking around the hole regardless though.

I don't see why the hollow hole would count if it's just an empty space. Might as well speculate Starrk's black hair.

Either way, if you can't hurt someone who is not wearing the color you call out, then Shunsui wouldn't be able to hurt Love either. If the game is not solely restricted to clothing and inlcudes skin color, hair, hollow holes, etc. then they'll both be able to hurt each other. In both cases Shunsui wouldn't really gain an advantage over Love or Rose, because they're just as likely to land a hit on Shunsui as vice versa.

In fact, I think that Love and Rose would be more likely to connect with their attacks during the color game because both of their weapons have much greater range than Shunsui's two swords. Love's cudgel is almost as big as kokujo tengen myouou's sword, and Love swings that thing around pretty damn quickly. Rose has a whip, which is obviously something that's difficult to evade because it's not easy to read the movements of a whip, especially one that seems like it may be capable of extending.

As far as the overall battle between SS and Kisuke's group (I consider the vaizards to be part of his group), the fact that they have Hachigen and Tessai should make it an easy win for them. If Hachi can supposedly seal someone like Urahara Kisuke in a barrier for a month then he could easily do the same to one of the SS captains. Tessai as well. I wonder who's stronger now between Hachi and Tessai though...I think I'll make vs. thread between the two.


Coupled with the sexy Mashiro, with her legs of steel and super mask, she can out run Mayuri and kick him in the face.


Hey, so I'm not the only one that finds Mashiro sexy after all!

DEATHBOTT
April 24, 2010, 08:51 PM
the shimigami outcast of ss vs the shimigami who replaced them.

Kisuke Urahara vs Mayuri Kurotsuchi
Yoruichi Shihōin vs Soifon
Love Aikawa vs Sajin Komamura
Kensei Muguruma vs Kaname Tōsen
Rōjūrō Otoribashi vs Gin Ichimaru
Mashiro Kuna vs Shūhei Hisagi
Hiyori Sarugaki vs Nemu Kurotsuchi
Lisa Yadōmaru vs Nanao Ise

Hachigen Ushōda, Tessai Tsukabishi, and Isshin Kurosaki are not in the fight because we haven't been shown their replacements and Shinji Hirako and Sōsuke Aizen are out for obviouse reasons.

feel free to disscuss the team fight or individual fights if you wish.

scenario 1 only abilities shown so far.
scenario 2 you can speculate on abilities not shown yet.

El Samurai Guapo
April 24, 2010, 09:41 PM
the shimigami outcast of ss vs the shimigami who replaced them.

Kisuke Urahara vs Mayuri Kurotsuchi
Yoruichi Shihōin vs Soifon
Love Aikawa vs Sajin Komamura
Kensei Muguruma vs Kaname Tōsen
Rōjūrō Otoribashi vs Gin Ichimaru
Mashiro Kuna vs Shūhei Hisagi
Hiyori Sarugaki vs Nemu Kurotsuchi
Lisa Yadōmaru vs Nanao Ise

Hachigen Ushōda, Tessai Tsukabishi, and Isshin Kurosaki are not in the fight because we haven't been shown their replacements and Shinji Hirako and Sōsuke Aizen are out for obviouse reasons.

feel free to disscuss the team fight or individual fights if you wish.

scenario 1 only abilities shown so far.
scenario 2 you can speculate on abilities not shown yet.

Kisuke > Mayuri

Lisa > Nanao

Hiyori > Nemu

Love > Sajin

Rose > Gin (if he has not been hollowfied).

Kensei > Kaname (if we're talking about the hollowfied Kaname then it could go either way).

Yoruichi > Soi Fon (we've already seen this).

I think the captains from Kisuke's time were/are better than the current gotei captains. Shunsui, Juushirou, Retsu, and Yamamoto don't count since they've been there longer and have yet to be replaced.

I wish we could have seen a bit of Kuchiki Ginrei's abilities. I would assume he was pretty damn strong. I don't think Byakuya has surpassed him just yet.

kkck
April 24, 2010, 09:46 PM
I would lean towards the outcasts in most cases. Kisuke has better physical capacities as mayuri and is as smart as the guy. He seems like the resourceful type. Love's shikai seems more versative than komamura's shikai and seems more versatilve. With mask his shikai would at defend him from komamura's bankai and he would be a lot faster than komamura himself. Tousen would defeat kensei IMO. His hollowification is better and his resurreccion packs some severe power. As for rose vs gin, I would lean towards love. He has mask, a very versatile shikai and his bankai should be quite powerful specially with mask. Mashiro, hiyori and liza would but rape they newbi captains, this is not even funny. Nemu might have some interesting stuff to show in a fight considering her weird body though.
[hr]

Kisuke > Mayuri

Lisa > Nanao

Hiyori > Nemu

Love > Sajin

Rose > Gin (if he has not been hollowfied).

Kensei > Kaname (if we're talking about the hollowfied Kaname then it could go either way).

Yoruichi > Soi Fon (we've already seen this).

I think the captains from Kisuke's time were/are better than the current gotei captains. Shunsui, Juushirou, Retsu, and Yamamoto don't count since they've been there longer and have yet to be replaced.

I wish we could have seen a bit of Kuchiki Ginrei's abilities. I would assume he was pretty damn strong. I don't think Byakuya has surpassed him just yet.

You forgot mashiro though. Also, byakuya was said to be the strongest member of the kuchiki family in history so I would think he has surpassed his grandpa.

El Samurai Guapo
April 24, 2010, 11:35 PM
You forgot mashiro though. Also, byakuya was said to be the strongest member of the kuchiki family in history so I would think he has surpassed his grandpa.

Oh yeah, Mashiro would do a spinning kick on Shuuhei and he'd be knocked all the way to the 80th district of rukongai.

Could you post a link to where it said that part about Byakuya in the manga? It's not that I don't believe you it's just that I was wondering which chapter that was from.

Eddy01741
April 24, 2010, 11:45 PM
the shimigami outcast of ss vs the shimigami who replaced them.

Kisuke Urahara vs Mayuri Kurotsuchi
Yoruichi Shihōin vs Soifon
Love Aikawa vs Sajin Komamura
Kensei Muguruma vs Kaname Tōsen
Rōjūrō Otoribashi vs Gin Ichimaru
Mashiro Kuna vs Shūhei Hisagi
Hiyori Sarugaki vs Nemu Kurotsuchi
Lisa Yadōmaru vs Nanao Ise



scenario 1 only abilities shown so far.
scenario 2 you can speculate on abilities not shown yet.
Scenario 1:

Kisuke Urahara vs Mayuri Kurotsuchi: Mayuri
Yoruichi Shihōin vs Soifon: Yoruichi
Love Aikawa vs Sajin Komamura: Love
Kensei Muguruma vs Kaname Tōsen: Kaname
Rōjūrō Otoribashi vs Gin Ichimaru: Gin
Mashiro Kuna vs Shūhei Hisagi: Mashiro
Hiyori Sarugaki vs Nemu Kurotsuchi: Hiyori
Lisa Yadōmaru vs Nanao Ise: Lisa


Quick rundown: Mayuri has shown shikai, bankai and tons of inventions, Urahara has shown a few inventions and shikai. Thus in scenario 1 Mayuri wins. Yoruichi has equal hand-hand and hohou, as well as better shunko, so she takes it. Love has actually done something so far while Komamura has just been a punching bag (it's sad how bad Kubo treats him...), Gin has a monster bankai, Rose has a magic whip shikai. I like Hisagi but Mashiro with her mask seems to be fairly powerful, and Hiyori has done fighting while Nemu hasn't, so I give it to Hiyori. Same goes for Nanao and Lisa.

Scenario 2:

Kisuke Urahara vs Mayuri Kurotsuchi: Urahara
Yoruichi Shihōin vs Soifon: Yoruichi
Love Aikawa vs Sajin Komamura: Love
Kensei Muguruma vs Kaname Tōsen: Kensei
Rōjūrō Otoribashi vs Gin Ichimaru: Gin
Mashiro Kuna vs Shūhei Hisagi: Mashiro
Hiyori Sarugaki vs Nemu Kurotsuchi: Hiyori
Lisa Yadōmaru vs Nanao Ise: Lisa

Quick rundown: Urahara has both fan-based hype and Kubo-based hype going for him, still has bankai yet to be revealed as well. Yoruichi already seems superior (at least to me) with just what she has shown, with shikai and bankai I'm sure it'll be even more impressive. Love hasn't yet shown bankai and has been hollowified, so I give it to him. This is just a hope on gut feeling that Kensei is stronger, but there isn't really any evidence at all. Gin still has monster bankai. Mashiro has shikai to reveal and still has mask. Hiyori and LIsa have mask+shikai while Nemu and Nanao likely only have shikai.

zimbardo
April 25, 2010, 10:16 AM
I don't see why the hollow hole would count if it's just an empty space. Might as well speculate Starrk's black hair.

Either way, if you can't hurt someone who is not wearing the color you call out, then Shunsui wouldn't be able to hurt Love either.

It doesn't matter what colour you are wearing, you can say any colour you like. As you can only damage the colour you shout Shunsui could hurt Love (and vise versa). (http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/374/11/)

Also the hollow hole must have counted as black as the hollow hole is the area which Shunsui hit. (http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/375/07/) For an alternative angle. (http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/375/08/)

Now I do not know all the details of what Kyouraku's games can do, and what they can't. However there is speculation that you can only cut the area you want to damage (notice the lack of cero's/wolves from Stark). Would a club or whip count as cutting?

Mifune_Taichou
April 25, 2010, 07:46 PM
First off i'd want to say that the rules of this are a bit off (no offence) because Yoruichi, Tessai and Urahara are a different "team" to the Vaizards.

So I will mostly not include them in this because this scenario isn't really plausible.

The Vaizards as they are I think would get completely slaughtered.

Shinji's shikai is awesome dont get me wrong but as we have seen experience fighters adapt to it quickly and Shunsui and Uki are more experienced that Aizen (and imo better warriors as a whole). SO I reckon Shunsui will just off Shhinji. Not to mention that shunji's shikai would do f*ck all against Zaraki if they crossed swords.

Love and Rose are just the brothers McFail. Their abilities aren't bad but they are crap as warriors (as shunsui told them). Kensei is cool but we really cant tell how strong he is after his fight. The VC vaizards are all pathetic. hachi is a wild card but he's so slow my guess is any of the captains could cut him down before he moves a muscle.

Imo Byakuya, Zaraki, Soi Fon, Shunsui and maybe Hitsugaya would be all it takes to wipe out the Vaizards. Shunsui to take out Shunji, then take your pick:

either Byakuya and Zaraki wipe out TeamSuckSquad (Rose and Love) and then Soi fon quickly drops Hachi and Kensei (with her shikai she would be a beast against ANYONE but Barragan) and then Hitsugaya just wiped out all the VC Vaizards combined or

interchange the captains as you find best (only Shunsui must fight Shinji to be certain of Victory).

This leaves Mayuri, Ukitake, Unohana and Kommamura free.

Even if yu introduce Ura,Yoru and tessai i still dont think it will be enough apart from the fact that I personally think Urahara will prove to be stronger than Aizen or on his level. Right now though he hasnt been shown to be.

Of course this is all a moot point anyway as Yama would just murder EVERYONE eventually (yes i know its not in the rules but you know its true)

Hystzen
April 25, 2010, 07:50 PM
lol at yamma part..... the urahara group were introduced as people thort the other thread i had with just vizards vs SS was unfair in numbers now people saying it unfair if they are in :p

El Samurai Guapo
April 25, 2010, 10:28 PM
First off i'd want to say that the rules of this are a bit off (no offence) because Yoruichi, Tessai and Urahara are a different "team" to the Vaizards.

So I will mostly not include them in this because this scenario isn't really plausible.

Huh? This is supposed to be a fantasy fight. Of course it's not plausible. Most of the threads in "el campo de batallas de las almas" are not plausible, yet we still discuss them.

This thread isn't off, it is called SS outcasts vs. SS and guess what, Yoruichi, Kisuke, and Tessai along with the vaizards are all SS outcasts.

kkck
April 26, 2010, 08:50 AM
Love and Rose are just the brothers McFail. Their abilities aren't bad but they are crap as warriors (as shunsui told them). Kensei is cool but we really cant tell how strong he is after his fight. The VC vaizards are all pathetic. hachi is a wild card but he's so slow my guess is any of the captains could cut him down before he moves a muscle.
I think you got this backwards, it is shunsui who is crap as a warrior. Love was having a straight fight with starrk, it was only until starrk got rose involved and shunsui sneaked attack starrk that that change. In this particular case, love was basically the "good" warrior while shunsui wasn't. Shunsui has repeatedly shown he is inherently devoid of anything resembling warrior pride, hence why he tried several sneak attacks on starrk and ultimately only got involved in the fight when he could get a sure cheap shot on starrk -lets get real, that was without a doubt a cheap shot-. Seriously, if you pay attention what shunsui ultimately lectured love and rose about was normal shounen pride and straight fighting. I don't really think shunsui being inherently devoid of warriors pride is a bad thing at all though, quite frankly I find it rather refreshing. Obviously, the situation was a war and that sort of thing should be expected from a military man though -which is not really the same as a "warrior" in normal shounen context-.

Gran Maestro
April 26, 2010, 10:18 AM
I think you got this backwards, it is shunsui who is crap as a warrior.

I think you got this backwards. :)

Aizen changed himself with Hinamori in the middle of a fight, pissed Hitsugaya off and created an opening to defeat his opponents. Does this tactic make Aizen crap as a warrior? Certainly not. It makes him versatile. If Shunsui was crap as a warrior, Stark would destroy him in seconds.

We don't know how strong Unohana and Urahara are, so I can't say anything about the result of a "SS outcasts vs SS" fight. But if I had an educated guess, I would say SS side wins. It would be a close fight though.

kkck
April 26, 2010, 10:20 AM
^I haven't said anything about aizen. He is strong as hell but he does not care about anything at all, let alone something like warrior's pride. I think you took my post out of context or did not read it at all.

Gran Maestro
April 26, 2010, 10:29 AM
^I haven't said anything about aizen. He is strong as hell but he does not care about anything at all, let alone something like warrior's pride. I think you took my post out of context or did not read it at all.

You said "Shunsui is crap as a warrior because he uses cheap shots." I said "No, I don't agree, otherwise Aizen is crap too."

kkck
April 26, 2010, 10:39 AM
You said "Shunsui is crap as a warrior because he uses cheap shots." I said "No, I don't agree, otherwise Aizen is crap too."

What does aizen have anything to do with this? Not entirely sure why you bring him up.... What I mean by shunsui being a crap warrior or not a warrior at all has nothing to do with how strong he is. In here, I mean warrior in the usual shonen context, basically someone who wants to win a "fair" fight and other fighting principles generally applied in shonen. Shunsui could not possibly care less about a "fair" fight nor anything like that. He is more than willing to use as many plausible cheap shots as he can. Still not sure why you bring up aizen here but he is not that different, he could not care less about having a straight fight at all nor he cares about proving how strong he is.

Gran Maestro
April 26, 2010, 10:46 AM
What does aizen have anything to do with this? Not entirely sure why you bring him up.... What I mean by shunsui being a crap warrior or not a warrior at all has nothing to do with how strong he is. In here, I mean warrior in the usual shonen context, basically someone who wants to win a "fair" fight and other fighting principles generally applied in shonen. Shunsui could not possibly care less about a "fair" fight nor anything like that. He is more than willing to use as many plausible cheap shots as he can. Still not sure why you bring up aizen here but he is not that different, he could not care less about having a straight fight at all nor he cares about proving how strong he is.

Yes, this is what I'm saying: Since Shunsui and Aizen share same characteristics, they're both crap as warriors according to your criteria. I just say I don't agree with these criteria, when somebody is crap as a warrior, it means that person stinks as a swordsman. His fighting style doesn't matter.

kkck
April 26, 2010, 10:55 AM
Yes, this is what I'm saying: Since Shunsui and Aizen share same characteristics, they're both crap as warriors according to your criteria. I just say I don't agree with these criteria, when somebody is crap as a warrior, it means that person stinks as a swordsman. His fighting style doesn't matter.

That is what I meant when I said you did not read my post in its intended context. You are answering a post which I intended to have an specific context with something entirely out of context. Problem here is not that we disagree in what we are saying but rather on the definition or context of a word. Basically, I am talking about an attitude shunsui has towards fighting and you respond saying shunsui is a strong fighter. I am not talking about shunsui's strength at all...

freshseth83
April 26, 2010, 07:02 PM
It seems to me like kk doesn't like Shunsui. I think he's the smartest one of the group. At least he doesn't try to go up against people he has no business even attempting to match. Well, that doesn't exist in my opinion because I think Shunsui is a match for anyone, any character, Aizen included. Just because YOU think he uses cheap shots, doesn't mean that is his style. In fact according to the manga, he states against Stark BEFORE the Visoreds even appeared, that his style is no style. That his characteristics and him being uncharacteristic. To me that tells more of a story of Shunsui than his 'cheap shots'. SS would win this battle. For the simple fact that they have Unohana, Shunsui, Ukitake, Soi-Fon, Kenpachi, Komamura, Byakuya, Miyori and Hitsugaya, and they're just the captains. Regardless of the Visoreds and Urahara's crew helping, they're outnumbered in the captain department and easily outnumbered in the Vice Captain department.

Hystzen
April 27, 2010, 04:52 AM
no matter what thread you post aizen always gets mentioned seriously you need to stop comparing characters to aizen who is main villian at the moment so he bound to be stronger than nearly everyone and draggin shunsui into everything is more funny.

there is alot of the outcasts how can handle most of ss the trouble ones are uki shunsui combo byakuya and kenpachi

Gran Maestro
April 27, 2010, 08:07 AM
We don't know Unohana or Urahara's true strength, so I'll leave them out. The winners of these fights are my opinions.

Shunsui vs Shinji (can go both ways, Shunsui's chances are higher)

Ukitake vs Love & Rose (can go both ways, Ukitake's chances are higher)

Kenpachi vs Kensei (can go both ways)

Byakuya vs Yoruichi (can go both ways)

Soifon vs Tessai (can go both ways)

Hitsugaya, Mayuri, Komamura vs vizard VCs (SS captains)

Conclusion: SS side probably wins.

hakuthehedgehog
April 27, 2010, 08:28 AM
I think Mayuri could mass poison most of the vizards and then give gotei the antidote.
With that, he probably kills most vizard VC (except hachi, who can protect himself with a barrier), Rose, Love and Kensei.
Tessai, Urahara, Yoruichi, and Shinji should have saved in time or have something to break that ability, but still, most of the vizards get KO'ed while Gotei is still in good shape.
If Tessai and Hacchi keep in the barriers, Hitsugaya can use the ice petals attack and trap them in their own barriers.
Then the remaining forces are owned by the remaining Gotei.
This is how it could be, but there is a higher chance that the Gotei wins IMO, around 60/40 for the Gotei.

Hystzen
April 27, 2010, 08:35 AM
mayuri cant posion all of the outcasts hachi and tessai could put a barrier up or yoruchi could kill him before gets the chance

hakuthehedgehog
April 27, 2010, 08:39 AM
mayuri cant posion all of the outcasts hachi and tessai could put a barrier up or yoruchi could kill him before gets the chance

What makes you think that Ukitake or even Mayuri can't break the barrier? And what makes you think Yoruichi would be given the chance to attack Mayuri if Byakuya or Soi Fon can just attack her from behind?~
If Hachi or Tessei put a barier around themselves, Hitusgaya would just freeze the barriers and they would be trapped, and couldn't leave because they would be pwned by the petals.

AlB
April 27, 2010, 11:12 AM
What makes you think that Ukitake or even Mayuri can't break the barrier? And what makes you think Yoruichi would be given the chance to attack Mayuri if Byakuya or Soi Fon can just attack her from behind?~
If Hachi or Tessei put a barier around themselves, Hitusgaya would just freeze the barriers and they would be trapped, and couldn't leave because they would be pwned by the petals.

and what makes u think that SS side can be able to do anything at all if Shinji disorients them with his fart sakanade

freshseth83
April 28, 2010, 05:50 PM
no matter what thread you post aizen always gets mentioned seriously you need to stop comparing characters to aizen who is main villian at the moment so he bound to be stronger than nearly everyone and draggin shunsui into everything is more funny.

there is alot of the outcasts how can handle most of ss the trouble ones are uki shunsui combo byakuya and kenpachi

i brang up my own opinion. I said i think a character like shunsui and possibly ukitake could stand against any character. regardless of whether or not it contains aizen, that's my opinion. If his name bothers you then don't read my posts.

Hystzen
April 28, 2010, 07:24 PM
i brang up my own opinion. I said i think a character like shunsui and possibly ukitake could stand against any character. regardless of whether or not it contains aizen, that's my opinion. If his name bothers you then don't read my posts.

iam not insulting or targeting you i was implying that no matter what the thread it turns into a shunsui vs aizen thread and people are using these to characters as strength guides to other characters. it is getting stupid as yamma vs aizen it has no meaning to keep bringing up this 2 characters in threads if you took it personal then sorry i wasent just saying it to but to nearly everyone on forum these days :D

DEATHBOTT
April 29, 2010, 02:04 AM
shinji activates sakanade confusing ss. tessai freezes ss with time kido. outcasts speed blitz ss. outcast take this most of the time.
uhara v byakuya uhara wins
yoruchi v mayuri yoruchi wins
hachi v kenpachi hachi wins
mashiro v ukitake mashiro wins
shinji v shunsui shinji wins
tessai v unohana tessai wins
kensie v hitsugaya hitsugaya wins
lisa and hiori and maybe ichigo? help others
winners help others

outcasts win

El Samurai Guapo
April 29, 2010, 02:57 AM
shinji activates sakanade confusing ss. tessai freezes ss with time kido. outcasts speed blitz ss. outcast take this most of the time.
uhara v byakuya uhara wins
yoruchi v mayuri yoruchi wins
hachi v kenpachi hachi wins
mashiro v ukitake mashiro wins
shinji v shunsui shinji wins
tessai v unohana tessai wins
kensie v hitsugaya hitsugaya wins
lisa and hiori and maybe ichigo? help others
winners help others

outcasts win

How the hell does Toushirou defeat Kensei? Kensei would decimate Toushirou with his shikai alone. Tachikaze will explode Histsugaya's ass along with all his ice (http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/315.05/16/).

freshseth83
April 29, 2010, 05:17 AM
first of all it goes like this

tessai and hachi have to use chants and incatations to stop time- that takes too long, captains like shunsui ukitake byakuya would cut them down by then.

next is the visoreds, they wouldn't last long as they're not even able to hold their masks together for long periods of time when they're facing strong opponent. WW displayed that by eating mashiro's kicks and causing her to lose her mask. she's not as fast as people maker her out to be.

outcasts aren't very experienced, visoreds haven't shown any type of skilled fighting besides maybe Shinji and Kensei. the other's seem like low level captain or vice captain fighters. easily dealt with. SS has 6 captains, 3 of them have been captain longer than anyone we know. Byakuya is one of the best all around fighters there is. Soi-Fon is fast as hell and Toshiro and Kenpachi are skilled in their respects as well. Not to mention Mayuri who knows as much as Urahara, maybe a bit less.

This goes to SS.

DEATHBOTT
April 29, 2010, 06:05 AM
first of all it goes like this

tessai and hachi have to use chants and incatations to stop time- that takes too long, captains like shunsui ukitake byakuya would cut them down by then.

next is the visoreds, they wouldn't last long as they're not even able to hold their masks together for long periods of time when they're facing strong opponent. WW displayed that by eating mashiro's kicks and causing her to lose her mask. she's not as fast as people maker her out to be.

outcasts aren't very experienced, visoreds haven't shown any type of skilled fighting besides maybe Shinji and Kensei. the other's seem like low level captain or vice captain fighters. easily dealt with. SS has 6 captains, 3 of them have been captain longer than anyone we know. Byakuya is one of the best all around fighters there is. Soi-Fon is fast as hell and Toshiro and Kenpachi are skilled in their respects as well. Not to mention Mayuri who knows as much as Urahara, maybe a bit less.

This goes to SS.

mashiro showed speed faster than ww who one shotted ukitake. and she held her mask for atleast 2 whole fights.

the outcasts have more experienced fighters than ss. ss has 3 captains while outcasts have 7 captains and 4 vc from 100 years ago.

hitsugaya, kenpachi, komura, soi fon, mayuri have all shown their full strength while no one on the outcast team has shown theirs apart from maybe hiori and lisa but even then they are their two weekest members and i doubt that their shikai don't have an ability they havn't used.

only hachi strongest barriers need chants so he could just quickly throw up a barrier to protect them while they do chants for bigger kido.

the biigest threats are shunsui ukitake and unohana who havnt shown their bankai but the outcasts also have more captains who havnt revealed theirs. yoruchi has shown power level with bankai without even useing shikai, while shinji shikai would mess up the whole of ss movements.

soifon's speed is negated by yoruchi's.

Waking_Dreamer
April 30, 2010, 05:26 AM
How the hell does Toushirou defeat Kensei? Kensei would decimate Toushirou with his shikai alone. Tachikaze will explode Histsugaya's ass along with all his ice (http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/315.05/16/).

Too bad that was just an ice clone - and now Kensei just got a frozen icicle up his ass...:blink

Charred
April 30, 2010, 06:47 AM
outcasts take this really easy.
Tessai/Hachi could easily barrier up Mayuri's bankai to prevent the poison from spreading.

Should also constrain it to no forbidden kido etc. Tessai freezing time would be overkill, I'd dare to say that even with Yama on SS side it still would be.

poobert
April 30, 2010, 08:42 AM
Too bad that was just an ice clone - and now Kensei just got a frozen icicle up his ass...:blink

His clone only works once. It might be useful against a one off attack, like halibells or soi fons bankai, but if his enemy is spamming attacks, one clone is not going to be of huge benefit in the long run.

I want to add a bit more about yoruichi. She became captain before urahara and before most of the vizards. She may even be older than Shinji. She excels in assassination of high level individuals, she is faster than byakuya by so much that it hurts, and her shunko gives her bankai powers greater than Ichigo, without a bankai.

I think that some people may underestimate her by not giving her the same credit as they do Urahara, Shunsui, Uki and Shinji.

El Samurai Guapo
April 30, 2010, 02:18 PM
His clone only works once. It might be useful against a one off attack, like halibells or soi fons bankai, but if his enemy is spamming attacks, one clone is not going to be of huge benefit in the long run.

I want to add a bit more about yoruichi. She became captain before urahara and before most of the vizards. She may even be older than Shinji. She excels in assassination of high level individuals, she is faster than byakuya by so much that it hurts, and her shunko gives her bankai powers greater than Ichigo, without a bankai.

I think that some people may underestimate her by not giving her the same credit as they do Urahara, Shunsui, Uki and Shinji.

Exactly, Yoruichi is so freaking strong that she can easily defeat a captain without even using her zanpakutou? Seriously who else but Yamamoto does anyone see doing that?

I do believe that strength wise Yoruichi is above Kisuke, although he makes up for it by being a scientific genius.

hakuthehedgehog
April 30, 2010, 02:34 PM
I don't think Yoruichi could defeat Byakuya without using her zanpakuto.
Seriously, his bankai is stupidly strong, and he is a kido expert to boost his powerful skills.
Anyways, I believe Ukitake would just absorb all the barriers that would be thrown up, and Mayuri could still use his Hax poison to kill most of the outcasts.
Hitsugaya could also use a huge ice petals attack to severely wound/kill most of the outcasts because that's how broken his attack his, while Byakuya protects SS with his petals.

kkck
April 30, 2010, 04:12 PM
Exactly, Yoruichi is so freaking strong that she can easily defeat a captain without even using her zanpakutou? Seriously who else but Yamamoto does anyone see doing that?

I do believe that strength wise Yoruichi is above Kisuke, although he makes up for it by being a scientific genius.

Well, yoruichi has developed a skill which might as well replace a bankai, I don't think the way you view that is overall a good reflection of her actual situation.

Now in terms of physical combat yoruichi should be superior to the majority of the people here but then again just that won't really make her win against another captain's bankai. Surely her shunko is versatile and it works at all ranges but same can be said about byakuya overall and his bankai. I doubt byakuya would be in a situation where he would be utterly speedblitz -he is quite proficient at shunpo himself- and his bankai can easily make up for any lack in speed by covering for him, increasing his attack power and attacking yoruichi from several angles. I'd argue the final technique he used against ichigo could match or even top yoruichi's shunko considering it is indeed a concentration of the millions of blades he uses and have the entirety of the power of his bankai behind him.

Lunatic Scream
April 30, 2010, 04:50 PM
Honestly, I don't understand how people are overrating the outcasts so much. The majority of them either haven't fought, or have been absolutely dominated. Only Hachi, Shinji, Urahara and Yoruichi have done anything of note, and even then, their victories were kinda circumstantial.


Just so we're clear here: Lisa, Hiyori, and Mashiro are Vice Captain level characters who have still not obtained Bankai AFAIK. That makes them FODDER. Sorry.


Kensei lost to an Arrancar who's ONLY special ability was to seal someone else's zanpakuto. Let me repeat that: He lost to an Arrancar who had no ressurreccion, reasoning skills, or brain in a straight fight.


Love and Rose had a very poor showing against a demotivated Starrk, and couldn't deal a single substantial injury to him. They then proceeded to be two of three captains that Aizen stomped without using KS. Komamura is included in this boat as well though.


As a matter of fact, Hachi's being vastly overrated as well. Barragan sat around and let the guy do the equivalent of a Final Fantasy summoning animation just to see what'd happen... and it still didn't kill him. He won through some method which apparently only works on people that have no stomachs, so it'd be of no use here.

Vaizard masks =/= Ichigo's mask. That's really the bottom line that people overlook.

Now assuming like any fight in Bleach, it will come down to the strongest members of each side to be the deciding factor. Well, that makes this completely and utterly ambiguous. The strongest people on each side are the ones that have shown the least amount of their power.

Unohana, Shunsui, Ukitake
Yoruichi, Urahara, Shinji, Tessai

Unohana hasn't revealed anything. Shunsui and Ukitake have revealed (some) of their shikai. Being straight shinigami, obviously the majority of their combat abilities come from zanpakuto, which we know little about.

Yoruichi has been off and on. She beat an emotionally distressed Soifon, but injured herself on an unreleased Yammy, and also apparently isn't fast enough to dodge a cero from him. Zanpakuto completely unknown.

Urahara toyed with an unreleased Yammy, again, not really a major feat considering that even a released Yammy is apparently a joke, but he dodged something 20 times faster than what Yoruichi couldn't dodge, and also injured Aizen recently, so he's probably quite badass.

Shinji's got a nasty Shikai and a Vaizard mask. I certainly agree he's a force to reckon with, and as the leader of the Vaizards, easily the strongest of their "group". For some reason he hasn't used his mask in FKT, except to dispatch "ZOMG MENOS", so really we haven't seen what he can do yet.

But all of the above speculation doesn't matter, why you ask?

Tessai: Dude can time stop. He's phenomenally broken. If I were to say that SS outcasts would win this battle, he would be the reason why.

Raizen
May 04, 2010, 01:32 PM
As others have said, the vizards are utter fail. The only thing that keeps this fight from being one-sided is the addition of urahara, youruichi, and tessai

Let's break it down:
Shunsui can handle just about anyone from the outcast and win IMO
Uki can as well (since this is fantassy, there is no point bringing up situational events like the illness)
Unohana is considered even olde than shunsui and uki, so she should be even stronger
Byakuya can basically handle any of them- in this fight, i see him fighting youruichi. Youruichi was scared of just his shikai. She even stated she wouldn't be able to beat him. I doubt she can speed blitz byakuya. Not to mention, his bankai is perfect to counter her. Byakuya would own any vizards IMo
Kenpachi- He is such a monster that he will own any vizards. The moment they try to attack him, he catches them and insta-owned. The only one i see giving him trouble is tessai b/c of high level kido and barriers.
Hitsu- He can basically freeze the whole area. His ice is oveerwhelming. If he stops worrying about injuring his teammates, he can use full power
Mayuri- w/ his skills, he can alter his sense of smell and counter sakanade. As someone stated, his poison is quite dangerous, not to mention his shikai can paralyze.
Koma- he can handle kensei or love or the lame VCs
Soifon- she can speedblitz and take out teh VC vizards, love and his slow ass, and rose b/c if rose tries to qhip, she will dodge and own him. Considering her emotional state, she will not fight youruichi, byakuya will.

Now if we add in the old captains,
Gin can kll the VC as he did hiyori. While his bankai would own most of the vizards
Tousen can take out teh whole vizards as he did in the past. I mean, kensei got own by one hit from his sword. That is pathetic.

I say SS has a HUGE chance at winning. Unlike the vizard captains, the current captains of SS all have incredible skills.

And LOL at someone who is comparing hitsu's ice to a hollow's defense. Hitsu would freeze kensei and his little knife

Hystzen
May 05, 2010, 11:32 AM
i think people assume coz lisa, hiyori and mashiro were VC in TBTP arc they same level if they kept training after the exile they will be at most captains level histu soi fon koma level if they naturally progress power wise. so adding there improved power plus mask they not as weak people would assume.

Raizen
May 05, 2010, 11:56 AM
^^ First off, the difference between a lowly VC and a captain is HUGE!!, Secondly, they are VC for a reason, their lmits or strength pales in comparison to those with higher limits, like captains. COnsidering their lower limits, they could train for a century and still not be as strong as someone with high limits/potential like hitsu who just trained for 5 years.
And their mask aren't that great. Mashiro was one shotted, hiyori is an idiot, and lisa was well owned. Koma is arguably the weakest captain, yet he can take them all out by himself easily. Or soifon cna just speed blitz and sting them. Or gin can pick them off one by one. The possibilities are endless

exacta
May 05, 2010, 12:38 PM
I think you got this backwards. :)

Aizen changed himself with Hinamori in the middle of a fight, pissed Hitsugaya off and created an opening to defeat his opponents. Does this tactic make Aizen crap as a warrior? Certainly not. It makes him versatile. If Shunsui was crap as a warrior, Stark would destroy him in seconds.

We don't know how strong Unohana and Urahara are, so I can't say anything about the result of a "SS outcasts vs SS" fight. But if I had an educated guess, I would say SS side wins. It would be a close fight though.


I wouldn't say Shunsui's crap, obviously not, but his swordsmanship just isn't that amazing. Dude, all of the hits that connect were dirty cheapshots. He's only displayed inmpressive swordsmanship against Chad, and Shunsui was completely out of his league back then. Kenpachi and Byakuya and Old Man Yama have shown great swordsmanship, thers an example. Shunsui cheats, and Stark may have destroyed him if Ukitake hadn't stepped in, or if Love and Rose didn't distract Stark and not give Stark the chance to use the wolves on Shunsui. That's just how everything went down. Not saying any of the other three captains or Stark are better or worse than Shunsui, but there is no reason to have an extremely high opinion of Shunsui, a high one yes, but I see no reason to hype him up so much when the only time he has been shown to be a impressive straightforward fighter was against Chad, his only straightforward fight, and Chad was VC level at best back then.

If the SS outcasts get Urahara and co, I could see them winning. At the very least, I can see Hitsugaya and Komamura getting owned by the outcasts without too much trouble, regardless of Urahara and co.'s presence.
[hr]

^^ First off, the difference between a lowly VC and a captain is HUGE!!, Secondly, they are VC for a reason, their lmits or strength pales in comparison to those with higher limits, like captains. COnsidering their lower limits, they could train for a century and still not be as strong as someone with high limits/potential like hitsu who just trained for 5 years.
And their mask aren't that great. Mashiro was one shotted, hiyori is an idiot, and lisa was well owned. Koma is arguably the weakest captain, yet he can take them all out by himself easily. Or soifon cna just speed blitz and sting them. Or gin can pick them off one by one. The possibilities are endless

Your logic does not work at all. Why do you say the masks aren't great? Mashiro with just her mask was able to handle Wonderweiss, who was able to one shot Ukitake. Mashiro was not one shotted at all actually. She one shotted Fura, then preceded to pound the crap out of Wonderwiss til she overused her mask and it broke in the middle of her attack, giving WW a huge opening. How does everyone miss that??? I wouldn't say they are on the same level as high tier captains, but I wouldn't expect Koma and Hitsu to have an easy time, and they wouldn't get speedblitzed either, if by speedblitzed you mean like what happened to Ggio Vega.

Honestly, the difference between the outcasts and the current captains can't be vast, just read the story. I'm not saying that means the outcasts win, but if Urahara and co. join in and theres no Yama, Tousen or Gin, I expect them to, because they'll be outnumbered and Yama won't be there to destroy everything.

I at least wouldn't doubt Kensei and Shinji, and Love would easily handle Hitsu since he has fire, and his shikai's physical power seems to be as fierce as Koma's sword in Bankai. Of course, I don't know how Love would do against other captains, since I consider those two to be the weakest captains. The SS outcasts certainly aren't a bad match against SS, come on, get real people, if it was an easy decision, it wouldn't be an interesting topic....

Gran Maestro
May 05, 2010, 01:36 PM
I wouldn't say Shunsui's crap, obviously not, but his swordsmanship just isn't that amazing. Dude, all of the hits that connect were dirty cheapshots. He's only displayed inmpressive swordsmanship against Chad, and Shunsui was completely out of his league back then. Kenpachi and Byakuya and Old Man Yama have shown great swordsmanship, thers an example.

What are your criteria for deciding who is a great swordsman and who is not? Do you really expect Kenpachi or Byakuya outperform Stark at swordsmanship? Since Shunsui held his own against Stark in a pure sword fight, you say Kenpachi or Byakuya would overwhelm Stark with their excellent swordsmanship skills. Keeping up with primera is a testament to Shunsui's great swordsmanship skills and using sneak attacks as a battle mentality doesn't make someone incompetent, the best example is Aizen.


Shunsui cheats, and Stark may have destroyed him if Ukitake hadn't stepped in, or if Love and Rose didn't distract Stark and not give Stark the chance to use the wolves on Shunsui. That's just how everything went down.

Stark had the upper hand against Shunsui because his sword was not in the mood. If things went bad, Shunsui would simply go bankai and destroy Stark. Once his zanpakuto decided to play along, he found the opportunity to show his real strength which was enough for him to hold his own with a mere shikai. And wolves would have been useless in a color game, this is why we never saw them against Shunsui. I explained it in detail more than once but people keep creating inconsistencies like "Stark had Alzheimer's disease and forgot to use his wolves" or "Stark left his guns at home".


Not saying any of the other three captains or Stark are better or worse than Shunsui, but there is no reason to have an extremely high opinion of Shunsui, a high one yes, but I see no reason to hype him up so much when the only time he has been shown to be a impressive straightforward fighter was against Chad, his only straightforward fight, and Chad was VC level at best back then.

Yamamoto stated that no other captain surpassed Shunsui & Ukitake and these two had a brief fight with Yamamoto and survived. Shunsui's victory over Stark with a shikai only confirmed how strong he is. I think you're being a bit unfair for demanding total humiliation of the primera with a shikai, which other captains would stand a chance against Stark with shikai only, let alone defeat him?


If the SS outcasts get Urahara and co, I could see them winning. At the very least, I can see Hitsugaya and Komamura getting owned by the outcasts without too much trouble, regardless of Urahara and co.'s presence.

This is my opinion (http://mangahelpers.com/forum/showthread.php?p=1896795#post1896795) about the issue.

Raizen
May 05, 2010, 01:59 PM
I wouldn't say Shunsui's crap, obviously not, but his swordsmanship just isn't that amazing. Dude, all of the hits that connect were dirty cheapshots. He's only displayed inmpressive swordsmanship against Chad, and Shunsui was completely out of his league back then. Kenpachi and Byakuya and Old Man Yama have shown great swordsmanship, thers an xample. Shunsui cheats, and Stark may have dstroyd him if Ukitake hadn't stepped in, or if Love and Rose didn't distract Stark and not give Stark the chance to us the wolves on Shunsui. That's just how everything went down. Not saying any of the other three captains or Stark are better or worse than Shunsui, but there is no reason to have an extremely high opinion of Shunsui, a high one yes, but I see no reason to hype him up so much when the only time he has been shown to be a impressive straightforward fighter was against Chad, and Chad was VC level at best back then..
How is shunsui cheap? Did u miss the part where he stated more than once that his characteristic is being uncharacteristic. he fights with a different style depending on the situation he is in. If anything, he deserves praise for it. There is no hype involved with shunsui. He was expected to be strong and he delivered more than i thought.

There is no "may have". I could easily say shunsui would have won easily if KS "may have" been in the mood from the beginning. In the end, they fought 1-on-1 and shunsui won.


If the SS outcasts get Urahara and co, I could see them winning. At the very least, I can see Hitsugaya and Komamura getting owned by the outcasts without too much trouble, regardless of Urahara and co.'s presence.
<hr noshade size="1">.
How do u consider hitsu so weak? He stood longer against aizen than koma, love, rose and lisa combined when he was calm and collected. Hitsu is quite powerful. His zanpaktou is extremely powerful and versatile. Halibel, who is the perfect counter for him failed to get pass his ice


Your logic does not work at all. Why do you say the masks aren't great? Mashiro with just her mask was able to handle Wonderweiss, who was able to one shot Ukitake. Mashiro was not one shotted at all actually. She one shotted Fura, then preceded to pound the crap out of Wonderwiss til she overused her mask and it broke in the middle of her attack, giving WW a huge opening. How does everyone miss that??? I wouldn't say they are on the same level as high tier captains, but I wouldn't expect Koma and Hitsu to have an easy time, and they wouldn't get speedblitzed either, if by speedblitzed you mean like what happened to Ggio Vega..
B/c they haven't shown a great increase in anything. Fura was fodder, nothing suggested fura was powerful or anything. Mashiro is quick, i will give her that. But note that despite all her attacks, WW showed no signs of injury or anything even close. She got owned by 1 hit to the face. It was not like she got stabbed or anything, she just got punched.
And soifon would clearly speedblitz any of the VC. Koma would tank their hits, once he goes bankai, all 3 are gone. Same w/ hitsu


Honestly, the difference between the outcasts and the current captains can't be vast, just read the story. I'm not saying that means the outcasts win, but if Urahara and co. join in and theres no Yama, Tousen or Gin, I expect them to, because they'll be outnumbered and Yama won't be there to destroy everything. .
Is tousen and gin not included? hmmm. Anyways, lets split the outcast into 2 categories, the vizards and urahara and co. The vizards are clearly trash compared to teh current captains. Urahara and co on teh other hand would very well be among the strong fighters capable of fighting against some of SS finest.


I at least wouldn't doubt Kensei and Shinji, and Love would easily handle Hitsu since he has fire, and his shikai's physical power seems to be as fierce as Koma's sword in Bankai. Of course, I don't know how Love would do against other captains, since I consider those two to be the weakest captaians.
How is love's shikai stronger than koma's bankai? Koma shikai did this
http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/175/19/
and love did this WITH mask
So koma to me is more impressive.

As for hitsu, halibel couldn't melt the ice petals with her powers, what makes u think fire can melt it. And an attack as slow as love won't be hitting hitsu. U underestimate hitsu. Hell, the other captains can hold the outcasts off while he prepares his 14 miles attack and freeze everyone

Hystzen
May 05, 2010, 02:25 PM
^^ First off, the difference between a lowly VC and a captain is HUGE!!, Secondly, they are VC for a reason, their lmits or strength pales in comparison to those with higher limits, like captains. COnsidering their lower limits, they could train for a century and still not be as strong as someone with high limits/potential like hitsu who just trained for 5 years.
And their mask aren't that great. Mashiro was one shotted, hiyori is an idiot, and lisa was well owned. Koma is arguably the weakest captain, yet he can take them all out by himself easily. Or soifon cna just speed blitz and sting them. Or gin can pick them off one by one. The possibilities are endless

mashiro was beat by a plot device kubo needed to plotkai yamma so i ignore WW :p. yes hiyori i hate wish she would die...lisa pretty good need see more...i still belive that the gap with VC and Captain that good and they were exile years before most of the current captains in seats so there power would have grown i still not sure if it that much but i think they not as weak people seem vizards were given a rough time as kubo used them to get beat for story reason but if we think without that there power is strong to rival SS ;)

Raizen
May 05, 2010, 02:36 PM
^Saying kubo trolled them doesn't really help. From what we have seen, they are not impressive in the least. Hiyori is a hot headed idiot who got skwered like a loser, lisa was pwned, and mashiro got punched and fainted. If you bring up plot device, i can also bring that up for every thing that happens in the manga. We can only take what the manga has shown and interpret it. And so far, the manga has shown that the vizards are utter fail

kkck
May 05, 2010, 02:40 PM
Mashiro got defeated by a espada level arrancar after losing her mask. That does not spell weakness in the least. Liza was taken out by aizen which also does not imply any form of weakness. Hiyori was defeated by sneak attack on gins part. She is quick tempered but we have no reason to believe she truly is weak or anything like that. mashiro with mask did held her own against WW which IMO is a decent feat, and liza and hiyori did contribute in the fight against harribel which is also a decent feat.

Raizen
May 05, 2010, 02:52 PM
Mashiro was able to keep up w/ WW b/c of her speed. But we all know that none of her attacks affected WW in any way. There were no signs of injuries.
And lisa and hiyori holding up against halibel for a bit is not impressive. I mean a half dead soifon was able to go up w/ aizen for a bit but we know that aizen would waste her in her condition. So lisa and hiyori having a short skirmish w/ hablibel means nothing IMO
I read one of your post that states that u believe that if any of these VC went up against someone like koma (who is the weakest captain IMO), they would get utterly trash. So we agree somewhat

Lunatic Scream
May 05, 2010, 03:25 PM
mashiro was beat by a plot device kubo needed to plotkai yamma so i ignore WW :p. yes hiyori i hate wish she would die...lisa pretty good need see more...i still belive that the gap with VC and Captain that good and they were exile years before most of the current captains in seats so there power would have grown i still not sure if it that much but i think they not as weak people seem vizards were given a rough time as kubo used them to get beat for story reason but if we think without that there power is strong to rival SS ;)

How you can accept that Mashiro being beaten by Wonderweiss was plot device, but people argue that Ukitake getting taken out by Wonderweiss was proof that she's as strong as he is is beyond me. Ukitake's losses and staggers, from illness or anything else, are the very definition of plot device.

Anyways, bottom line is Kubo REALLY over-hyped the Vaizards (maybe not Hachi). All Shinji, Hiyori, Lisa, Love, Rose, Mashiro, and Kensei did was own some menos, and get succinctly roflstomped.
Mashiro and Kensei got beaten by an arrancar with zero mental ability, and absolutely no ressurreccion ability in straight fights.
Love and Rose lost to someone Shunsui handled by himself.
Lisa and Hiyori were basically brushed off.

Shinji is the only person Kubo seems to hint is up with the SS captains, because he allowed him to actually have a fight with Aizen, and apparently Aizen needed the opening from Hitsugaya's stupidity to cut him down.
As for Hachi, hell if I know. Kido ranges from being pathetically weak to being the secret victory technique in any particular fight. And there's still like 150 of those damn spells to be revealed.

Hence why I said above that Urahara, Yoruichi, Shinji and Tessai are the only worthwhile combatants in this for the outcast side.

kkck
May 05, 2010, 03:30 PM
Mashiro was able to keep up w/ WW b/c of her speed. But we all know that none of her attacks affected WW in any way. There were no signs of injuries.
And lisa and hiyori holding up against halibel for a bit is not impressive. I mean a half dead soifon was able to go up w/ aizen for a bit but we know that aizen would waste her in her condition. So lisa and hiyori having a short skirmish w/ hablibel means nothing IMO
I read one of your post that states that u believe that if any of these VC went up against someone like koma (who is the weakest captain IMO), they would get utterly trash. So we agree somewhat

WW had arguably the best HSR we have seen in the manga. Yamamoto himself punched him without holding back and blew half of WW's body and the guy was not affected in the slightest. Yama had to literally blast him into a thousand tiny pieces to kill him. Without that level of injury wonderweiss was basically impossible to kill -except perhaps for exhaustion-. Obviously WW was not going to show any injuries from any previous fight if he can regenerate like that and his resurreccion heals wounds.

Komamura is a character I think has a bankai which does not have a proportional strength to the guy. Komamura himself seems to lack in certain areas -although we have little to go on about that considering he has gone against masked tousen and aizen mostly- but his bankai is a humongous mass of power. IMHO 1 hit of his bankai can one shot basically anyone within the captain level -if it hits- or that has HSR -along with the power to survive 1 hit-.

Random101
May 05, 2010, 04:56 PM
Actually his high speed regen took affect with his evolved state. I won't say that that might not have been a factor, but note that Ulquiorra's eye, which was the 'hint' to his power (Which is BS given that' doesn't even begin to explain the half of it but whatever) didn't even start to regrow in the scene in which he took it out, despite his regen being almost as good as Wondy's, so there's precedent for the sealed state being different than released. As I honestly can't see why he wouldn't regrow it then and there.

Hystzen
May 05, 2010, 06:06 PM
How you can accept that Mashiro being beaten by Wonderweiss was plot device, but people argue that Ukitake getting taken out by Wonderweiss was proof that she's as strong as he is is beyond me. Ukitake's losses and staggers, from illness or anything else, are the very definition of plot device.

Anyways, bottom line is Kubo REALLY over-hyped the Vaizards (maybe not Hachi). All Shinji, Hiyori, Lisa, Love, Rose, Mashiro, and Kensei did was own some menos, and get succinctly roflstomped.
Mashiro and Kensei got beaten by an arrancar with zero mental ability, and absolutely no ressurreccion ability in straight fights.
Love and Rose lost to someone Shunsui handled by himself.
Lisa and Hiyori were basically brushed off.

Shinji is the only person Kubo seems to hint is up with the SS captains, because he allowed him to actually have a fight with Aizen, and apparently Aizen needed the opening from Hitsugaya's stupidity to cut him down.
As for Hachi, hell if I know. Kido ranges from being pathetically weak to being the secret victory technique in any particular fight. And there's still like 150 of those damn spells to be revealed.

Hence why I said above that Urahara, Yoruichi, Shinji and Tessai are the only worthwhile combatants in this for the outcast side.

i never claimed that i said i ignore everything with WW as he was a plot device that includes the one shot uki which really annoyed me as wanted to see uki shunsui vs starrk. ( on side note why did kubo do that for coz we ended up with rose love shunsui vs starrk why coundnt he have ignored uki been taking out and have uki shunsui vs starrk).
i woundt claim kubo over hyped the vizards FANS DID like how fans are over hyping urahara now after this weeks chapter even tho he bout to get stomped by aizen to show his god powers.
and we dont know if kensei was beat by WW. i think WW could have done his job ignored kensei and went straight to attack yama either why kubo screwed over the vizards :p

Raizen
May 05, 2010, 08:27 PM
WW had arguably the best HSR we have seen in the manga. Yamamoto himself punched him without holding back and blew half of WW's body and the guy was not affected in the slightest. Yama had to literally blast him into a thousand tiny pieces to kill him. Without that level of injury wonderweiss was basically impossible to kill -except perhaps for exhaustion-. Obviously WW was not going to show any injuries from any previous fight if he can regenerate like that and his resurreccion heals wounds.

Komamura is a character I think has a bankai which does not have a proportional strength to the guy. Komamura himself seems to lack in certain areas -although we have little to go on about that considering he has gone against masked tousen and aizen mostly- but his bankai is a humongous mass of power. IMHO 1 hit of his bankai can one shot basically anyone within the captain level -if it hits- or that has HSR -along with the power to survive 1 hit-.
WW HSR never played a part against mashiro. Her attacks didn't do anything for HSR to kick into play. And don't compare released WW w/ unreleased WW.

umm.. what is your point about komamura? I say in physical strength and abilities, koma can give love and kensei a run for their money. He may beat love, but idk about kensei. IMO kenpachi can take both love and rose together. Hell, koma and kan can team up and take out love rose and kensei
[hr]

i never claimed that i said i ignore everything with WW as he was a plot device that includes the one shot uki which really annoyed me as wanted to see uki shunsui vs starrk. ( on side note why did kubo do that for coz we ended up with rose love shunsui vs starrk why coundnt he have ignored uki been taking out and have uki shunsui vs starrk).
i woundt claim kubo over hyped the vizards FANS DID like how fans are over hyping urahara now after this weeks chapter even tho he bout to get stomped by aizen to show his god powers.
and we dont know if kensei was beat by WW. i think WW could have done his job ignored kensei and went straight to attack yama either why kubo screwed over the vizards :p
I completely agree with you here. Fans here were saying stuff like the vizards would own the espadas without any trouble. Some even goes as far to claim that the weakest vizard would be even stronger than yama... YAMA!! can u believe that?! Yama would toast all the vizards together.

And kensei was defeated. Kensei is not teh type to leave a match unless he is down and out. He was defeated by unreleased WW, what a pathetic fighter

kkck
May 05, 2010, 10:45 PM
kensei being defeated is not a fact. Even then, we do not know if WW did not release against him -the arms and whatnot WW had would work against anyone even if his special technique is to seal RJ-.

Random101
May 05, 2010, 11:47 PM
Uh, if Wonderwiess is here and Kensei is nowhere to be found for such a long period of time, he was either defeated or he ran away. Given that his personality is not likely the type to run away, particularly when pissed off to hell, and I don't see any reason for him not to be a combatant now given how much time has passed, I'd go with the former. Granted not legit fact (It's just insanely stupid otherwise, but then again so was Gin just standing there and not one of the SS forces covering him despite the fact that he's a confirmed backstabber who backstabbed one of their allies with such a lethal blow)... but if he ran it doesn't speak well of his ability to win either.

kkck
May 06, 2010, 12:02 AM
I think there is a good chance kensei would know better than to get involved is a fight where yamamoto is about to go crazy.

Random101
May 06, 2010, 01:27 AM
And not since then when it's been only Gin and Aizen? Hell, how about just plain covering Gin. SOMEONE has to for crying out loud. He's been gone far too long to assume anything other than either fleeing, which I find unlikely, or getting defeated. In addition if that's true he also apparently 'let' Wonderwiess interrupt, so as opposed to avoiding getting involved in a fight where Yamamoto goes crazy he managed to pretty much lose the war for them given ol' Yama actually had Aizen. Granted he was using said advantage stupidly, but he apparently had him regardless.

DEATHBOTT
May 10, 2010, 05:56 AM
shinjis shikai + uharas intelligence/invention/kido + yoruchis speed + tesais kido + hachis barriers = win for outcast. the others are just to make up for numbers.

Raizen
May 11, 2010, 10:56 AM
^Shinji's shikai affects everyone that can smell. So that includes his teammates does it not?

If you say it like that, i can easily say mayuri uses poison while byakuya sends petals, hitsu use mass ice, etc and they can win.

DEATHBOTT
May 11, 2010, 10:38 PM
^Shinji's shikai affects everyone that can smell. So that includes his teammates does it not?

If you say it like that, i can easily say mayuri uses poison while byakuya sends petals, hitsu use mass ice, etc and they can win.
i dont think it does he used it with some of the captains against aizan.

Raizen
May 12, 2010, 12:22 PM
^ Yes, and didn't hitsu's attack go backward instead of frontward?

AlB
May 12, 2010, 12:54 PM
^Shinji's shikai affects everyone that can smell. So that includes his teammates does it not?

If you say it like that, i can easily say mayuri uses poison while byakuya sends petals, hitsu use mass ice, etc and they can win.

exactly dude. mayuri poisons his own teammated, while byakuya chops them, while hitsu freezes them.

Plus Vizards might get anti-gas masks and I'm not joking. I am 100% dead serious they'll get those masks and attack SS with those masks on.

anyway, whoever smells sakanade is under it's influence, so shinji can decide whether to inverse senses for some people or not. he messes up with SS fighters but doesn't extend control over his teammates

Raizen
May 12, 2010, 01:23 PM
exactly dude. mayuri poisons his own teammated, while byakuya chops them, while hitsu freezes them.

Plus Vizards might get anti-gas masks and I'm not joking. I am 100% dead serious they'll get those masks and attack SS with those masks on.

anyway, whoever smells sakanade is under it's influence, so shinji can decide whether to inverse senses for some people or not. he messes up with SS fighters but doesn't extend control over his teammates
U are twisting what i said, I said SS can use teh poison ice and stuff for THEM to win.

And anti-gas masks? THat is complete bull. The vizards still need to breath.

Yes, whoever smells sakanade is under teh influence. Shinji can't control who smells it. That means it will affect his teammates too. That is why he had to wait until teh final blow against aizen to use it for hitsu and aizen.

And thinking that sakande will win this battle is wrong. It is not something that would be hard to counter

poobert
May 12, 2010, 04:14 PM
I think that sakenade affects everyone. That is why Shinji does things backwards some time, otherwise he could just turn it off for himself.

When he used it against Aizen, it was only for a second until Hitsu stabbed him. Hitsu is a new captain so he has never smelt it before (actually considering that even Aizen has never smelt it, there are very few who have, probably yama and shunsui/uki) and the time it took between sakenade releasing and hitsu stabbing was short enough for Hitsu not to take a breath.

If shinji goes all out, like byakuya, hitsu, mayuri... everyone will suffer.

btw Shinji is awesome
http://beta.onemanga.com/Bleach/365/12/
just at the thought of fighting him, even yama loosened his sword, and this is the guy that does more damage with one punch than ken does with his zanpakto and kendo.

Raizen
May 12, 2010, 06:04 PM
you don't get what I say? oh god, why do I have to spell it out?! :darn

everybody is under sakanade's, and subsequently Shinji's influence.

let's take the fight you mentioned. all 3 SS captains and Aizen were under sakanade's influence. Shinji, chose to mess up only with aizen's senses. while shunsui, soifon and hitsu were still under sakanade's influence the only one who was affected was Aizen.

affect is not the same as influence.

let's take a random ss outcasts vs ss fight. say kensei and kenpachi are fighting. shinji releases sakanade and both kensei and kenpachi come under it's influence. but shinji reverses senses only for kenpachi.

was I understandable enough?


and "not smth difficult enough to counter?" :oh riiiiiiiight.......
The manga only showed shinji taking apart of the fight JUST b4 hitsu attacked. That means that sakanade didn't activate until that blow by hitsu. So no, u can't say shinji can choose who is affected or not b/c that has not been shown. That means if shinji is usiing that illusion on someone, he has to activate it for everyone

And yes, i don't think sakanade is that hard to counter
[hr]

I think that sakenade affects everyone. That is why Shinji does things backwards some time, otherwise he could just turn it off for himself.

When he used it against Aizen, it was only for a second until Hitsu stabbed him. Hitsu is a new captain so he has never smelt it before (actually considering that even Aizen has never smelt it, there are very few who have, probably yama and shunsui/uki) and the time it took between sakenade releasing and hitsu stabbing was short enough for Hitsu not to take a breath.

If shinji goes all out, like byakuya, hitsu, mayuri... everyone will suffer.

btw Shinji is awesome
http://beta.onemanga.com/Bleach/365/12/
just at the thought of fighting him, even yama loosened his sword, and this is the guy that does more damage with one punch than ken does with his zanpakto and kendo.
Why is it impressive that yama was about to take out his sword? in a fight a shinigami uses a sword am i correct?

DEATHBOTT
May 12, 2010, 10:14 PM
if it affected hitsu then he would have gone the wrong way?

El Samurai Guapo
May 12, 2010, 11:15 PM
if it affected hitsu then he would have gone the wrong way?

That panel with Toushirou behind Aizen proves that Shinji can also control the levels of inversion. Otherwise he would have been upside too.

DEATHBOTT
May 13, 2010, 05:00 AM
That panel with Toushirou behind Aizen proves that Shinji can also control the levels of inversion. Otherwise he would have been upside too.
that panel was normal view though. im saying if everyone was under hitsu wouldnt have been able to hit fake aizan and he would have had to quicky move to behind aizan for him not to just disapear from aizans view.. though for aizan not to notice shinji must be able to control if things appear upside down or not.

poobert
May 13, 2010, 07:08 AM
Why is it impressive that yama was about to take out his sword? in a fight a shinigami uses a sword am i correct?

He was not taking out his sword. He was loosening it in its sheath and preparing for a quick strike or defence, like Kenshin used to do. The way samurai/sword fighting comics work is that the larger the power gap, the less likely the top guy will draw until he feels he needs to. To loosen the sword signifies anxiety.

It was just a very cool and classic scene imo. If you watch samurai movies you know what I mean.

Raizen
May 13, 2010, 01:51 PM
@poobert, i know what u meant. But it doesn't in any way signify yama viewed shinji as a threat or anything remotely close. Yama is a serious guy, he will fight and kill anyone that gets in his way. Why hesistate to kill someone when u already have enemies b4 u?

freshseth83
May 13, 2010, 08:16 PM
If someone appears before Yama and says they are going to challenge him, what's he to do? Stand there and look dumb? Of course he had his hand on his sword. He was ready to turn Shinji into a barbecue. SS would win. There isn't enough Visoreds to take on all of them. Hell two of the stronger visoreds could even do a job Shunsui did. Why would we think they are some super strong guys when clearly they're not? Those masks aren't anything special either. Love and Rose can only keep them on for so long, and then have to put them back on, presumably using more of their reiatsu. They have weak stamina in other words. Shinji is probably the best of them and he isn't even on a level Ukitake and Shunsui are on. I'd say he's maybe on par with Byakuya. And Byakuya could beat all of the visoreds in my opinion, with Shinji maybe tying him.

AlB
May 17, 2010, 10:22 AM
If someone appears before Yama and says they are going to challenge him, what's he to do? Stand there and look dumb? Of course he had his hand on his sword. He was ready to turn Shinji into a barbecue. SS would win. There isn't enough Visoreds to take on all of them. Hell two of the stronger visoreds could even do a job Shunsui did. Why would we think they are some super strong guys when clearly they're not? Those masks aren't anything special either. Love and Rose can only keep them on for so long, and then have to put them back on, presumably using more of their reiatsu. They have weak stamina in other words. Shinji is probably the best of them and he isn't even on a level Ukitake and Shunsui are on. I'd say he's maybe on par with Byakuya. And Byakuya could beat all of the visoreds in my opinion, with Shinji maybe tying him.

what in the name of blue hell are you talking about?! :blink :blink
byakuya, beating vizards?! :blink :blink

forget the fact that he is younger than the lot of them and much less experienced. the only one I see dominated by Byakuya is Hiyori! (and even that is debatable)

Byakuya vs Shinji - not even worth discussing, he uses sakanade and blasts him with some kido or cero
Byakuya vs Love - love will simply block his petals with his metal cludgel fidgel or whatever the damn hell is his zanpakuto calles
Byakuya vs Rose - Rose blows up all his petals with his kinshara
Byakuya vs Kensei - Kensei will simply blow them away.
Byakuya vs Mashiro - Mashiro is damn faster than Byakuya, he won't be able to keep up with her. and one Mashiro Kick will be enough to OMFGPWN him (since she was able to keep up with wondy)
Byakuya vs Lisa - not sure about this one, we haven't seen anything in particualr from Lisa. but since she was a leutenant of strongest captain 100 years ago, I'd say she would beat his ass
Byakuya vs Hachi - once again, not even worth discussing.

poobert
May 17, 2010, 11:03 AM
Agreed, except maybe Lisa. I know she should be good, but I don't think she is captain level. There is a big gap between captain and VC, and it is certainly the case that not all VC's have the capability of achieving bankai, or becoming captain level. There is natural talent as well as time involved.

Mashiro is the only VC that was mildly impressive. Her mask lasts a lot longer than Lisa and Hyori, and while those two might be able to keep up with byakuya for the 3 minutes their mask is up, once it goes down, byakuya will grind them in to pieces.

Until we see otherwise, even VC's with bankai are far inferior to even the worst captain (Renji and Ikkaku come to mind).

El Samurai Guapo
May 17, 2010, 01:28 PM
Agreed, except maybe Lisa. I know she should be good, but I don't think she is captain level. There is a big gap between captain and VC, and it is certainly the case that not all VC's have the capability of achieving bankai, or becoming captain level. There is natural talent as well as time involved.

Mashiro is the only VC that was mildly impressive. Her mask lasts a lot longer than Lisa and Hyori, and while those two might be able to keep up with byakuya for the 3 minutes their mask is up, once it goes down, byakuya will grind them in to pieces.

Until we see otherwise, even VC's with bankai are far inferior to even the worst captain (Renji and Ikkaku come to mind).

Where was it said that Hiyori and Lisa's masks only have a three minute duration? The only one that said he had a three minute limit was Love and, as some have pointed out, that could have been a joke. (Apparently that "it only lasts three minutes because I'm a hero" line is a reference to something.)


I actually think Lisa is the toughest of the non-captain vaizards. The very fact that she held her own against Harribel for a while proves that she's light-years ahead of the "VC level"(which means: weak enough to get one-shotted by an unarmed Ichigo). Even Hiyori is much stronger than the VC level because when she fought Ichigo while sealed she was dominating him until his inner-hollow came out. The vaizard VC's even fought against Ichigo in his lizard/hollow form inside Hacchi's barrier.

That being said, I'm not sure if any vaizard VC could defeat Byakuya though. Because of his senkei, Byakuya is potentially the strongest captain besides Yamamoto; the only problem is his vow not to attack with all 1,000 blades at once. Byakuya is also extremely fast, and has access to onmitsukido techniques he learned form Yoruichi. Put Lisa against most other captains and I think she'd do pretty well, especially against Ukitake Juushirou.

Random101
May 17, 2010, 01:36 PM
Senkei's basically his base bankai state only he swore not to use it like that. Granted, it has so called 'increased attack power', but how much is that? It certainly wasn't strong enough to cut through Ichigo's blade. It's hardly impressive without any sort of definable increase to go with. I'd even argue it's weaker than his base state were that not weak enough to allow captain levels to survive direct hits from it (Well, one at least, two or three could be crippling, to say nothing of Goukei).

That being said though, from what's shown he could probably take Love and Rose regardless. Yeah, that's smart, smack at the giant mass of petals. Watch them swarm around your giant club and now at your now prone body. Granted, just once won't remotely be enough to take him out (After all, you can survive direct hits), but he's mainly going to be playing defensive with the sheer offensive force Byakuya has to work with. And I heavily doubt Rose could destroy his blades regardless. Of course, I'd have to see their bankai's to be sure, as it's certainly possible theirs are broken enough to make the difference.

Similarly, Lisa and Hiyori at least have a short time limit. Both their masks started to literally fall apart same as Ichigo's when they joined Hitsugaya. Not sure about the others, but I'd certainly buy Love's not lasting long regardless given he's not going all out with it, same with a majority of the others. Save perhaps Shinji, but that's mostly because him removing the mask then was already patently moronic even if his time limit WERE ridiculously short.

El Samurai Guapo
May 17, 2010, 01:49 PM
Senkei's basically his base bankai state only he swore not to use it like that. Granted, it has so called 'increased attack power', but how much is that? It certainly wasn't strong enough to cut through Ichigo's blade. It's hardly impressive without any sort of definable increase to go with. I'd even argue it's weaker than his base state were that not weak enough to allow captain levels to survive direct hits from it (Well, one at least, two or three could be crippling, to say nothing of Goukei).

The increase in attack power comes from the fact that instead sending tiny sakura pedals that leave tiny cuts, Byakuya said swords that can impale his target.


That being said though, from what's shown he could probably take Love and Rose regardless. Yeah, that's smart, smack at the giant mass of petals. Watch them swarm around your giant club and now at your now prone body. Granted, just once won't remotely be enough to take him out (After all, you can survive direct hits), but he's mainly going to be playing defensive with the sheer offensive force Byakuya has to work with.

I think he meant that Love could bat senbonzakura away similar to the way Ichigo did with his shikai. True, when Ichigo did that, Byakuya was in his shikai stage, but his bankai works the same way, and Love's shikai is a hell of a lot bigger and stronger than Ichigo's, especially with the mask on. Love has also shown that he can spin his cudgel around in circles rapidly (http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/372/09/), which is another way he could deflect senbonzakura kageyoshi. I have no doubt that Love could blast away all of Byakuya's pedals with an attack like this (http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/372/15/)

Random101
May 17, 2010, 02:06 PM
Yes, instead of flaying the target with infinitely many hard to see minuscule blades, stabbing them with far less easily visible swords. Not much difference frankly. I mean granted if the blades could stab through something the petals would have a harder time with fine, that works, but at what level is this difference? Without defining that it becomes much harder to tell.

All those would work fine, for the petals in front of him. His bankai is dangerous because it can come from multiple angles at once. Similarly that last one is largely because Starrk's hitting the ground hard. Granted, he'd probably be able to swat away all the petals in front of him with that, perhaps even have a whole wave of force to get a majority of them with far past the point Byakuya could swarm them around with. But the problem is the ones that would be coming from the other directions. Ichigo's SS arc bankai survived because he could whack all directions at once rapidly. Love's going to have a much, much harder time replicating the same thing at such a level of speed.

El Samurai Guapo
May 17, 2010, 02:43 PM
Yes, instead of flaying the target with infinitely many hard to see minuscule blades, stabbing them with far less easily visible swords. Not much difference frankly. I mean granted if the blades could stab through something the petals would have a harder time with fine, that works, but at what level is this difference? Without defining that it becomes much harder to tell.

Honestly, if BLEACH was realistic, the pedals would be more effective, but in the manga they seem to do little more than harass. Even being stabbed through the chest is not terminal in this manga, but I would assume that putting 4-5 swords through a target kill one of Byakuya's opponents quicker than the cherry blossoms.


All those would work fine, for the petals in front of him. His bankai is dangerous because it can come from multiple angles at once. Similarly that last one is largely because Starrk's hitting the ground hard. Granted, he'd probably be able to swat away all the petals in front of him with that, perhaps even have a whole wave of force to get a majority of them with far past the point Byakuya could swarm them around with. But the problem is the ones that would be coming from the other directions. Ichigo's SS arc bankai survived because he could whack all directions at once rapidly. Love's going to have a much, much harder time replicating the same thing at such a level of speed

I wasn't trying to say Love could prevent them all from hitting him, but he could swat away a great deal of them, and tank the rest of them at least long enough to get to Byakuya, whom I don't see surviving a direct masked hit from tengumaru. Despite the size of tengumaru, Love seems to be capable of swinging it around very quickly. I think one of the better aspects of hollow masks is that they increase the defense of their wearers. The first time they got blown up by the wolves, Love and Rose were wearing their masks and came out mostly unscathed. The second time they weren't so lucky, they no longer had their masks on, and came away much worse.

Love seems to be the durable melee type like Kenpachi to begin with, so I doubt a few microscopic cuts are going to do much to stop him if, ceros, according to Starrk, would not hurt a "strong guy" like him.

Raizen
May 17, 2010, 02:59 PM
what in the name of blue hell are you talking about?! :blink :blink
byakuya, beating vizards?! :blink :blink

forget the fact that he is younger than the lot of them and much less experienced. the only one I see dominated by Byakuya is Hiyori! (and even that is debatable)

Byakuya vs Shinji - not even worth discussing, he uses sakanade and blasts him with some kido or cero
Byakuya vs Love - love will simply block his petals with his metal cludgel fidgel or whatever the damn hell is his zanpakuto calles
Byakuya vs Rose - Rose blows up all his petals with his kinshara
Byakuya vs Kensei - Kensei will simply blow them away.
Byakuya vs Mashiro - Mashiro is damn faster than Byakuya, he won't be able to keep up with her. and one Mashiro Kick will be enough to OMFGPWN him (since she was able to keep up with wondy)
Byakuya vs Lisa - not sure about this one, we haven't seen anything in particualr from Lisa. but since she was a leutenant of strongest captain 100 years ago, I'd say she would beat his ass
Byakuya vs Hachi - once again, not even worth discussing.
Yes, byakuya would beat teh vizards, quite soundly.
Are we forgetting byakuya is considered the strongest kuchiki leader? Also, within 50 years he went from a young kid to one of the top captains, meaning his skills far exceeds any of the vizards VC and more impressive than any of the vizards period.

Byakuya vs shinji- Byakuya's petal acts as a shield and an offensive skill. It can block GT with ease. Even with things reversed, byakuya would still be able to counter. If u think shinji can win here, you're wrong

Byakuya vs Love- HAHA in thinking love is fast enough to catch byakuya. Furthermore, the petals aren't like ceros. They don't travel in a straight pattern. They will move pass the club and slice him to death

Byakuya vs rose- so rose is going to whip away millions of petals. For the sonata to work, the whip must be latched onto something. So rose latch on to 1 petal, what is he going to do with the other millions? :notrust

Byakuya vs kensei- kensei had to use shikai on a lowly hollow and he had helpers too. Not to mention, he got owned by a stab from tousen while byakuya took on a full GT, a stab from gin and still kept going. Not to mention, he cut off his own arm and leg and still was fast enough to surprise the 7th espada. Byakuya would own kensei.

Byakuya vs mashiro- If u think mashiro is as fast as the 7th espada or even close, then u are reading the wrong manga. Byakuya uses cicada and then slash her

Byakuya vs any of teh VC and he will own them as easily as he owned renji

People need to start using the manga as evidence rather than just going by personal preferences b/c it really is ridiculous

freshseth83
May 17, 2010, 08:11 PM
It is Raizen. I agree with most of your posts because you don't just see things as I see them, but they are factual.

Byakuya could own any of the lame ass vizards. Shinji might be the only one to stand against him in a real battle. Byakuya is the STRONGEST head of the Kuchiki house. And that's something special. Not only is his Zanpakuto beastly, but he is as well. Have any of the vizards besides hachi shown any type of kido? Because byakuya could easily use that against all of them. He could bind them with Bakudo and shoot them with kido like it was nothing.

I laugh at the fact people think Rose and Love could do some damage to him. Rose has a whip that can affect one thing. Byakuya has millions of pedals. The only reason Ichigo really 'won' against Byakuya is because he was fighting for Byakuya's sister. We all know Byakuya didn't want his sister to die. But when he isn't conflicted inside he owns. He beat the #7 espada with one arm and one leg, and it wasn't even close. A Danku spell blocked #7's amore. Point is, those guys sit there and rely on masks that don't usually last long.

As for the others, Mashiro is weak. Her stupid kick won't contact Byakuya, he's too fast. Her speed might seem quick but it's not. Byakuya could outpace all of them. He was taught by Yoruichi herself. Not to mention Senka. So I'm sure he knows moves his pride prevents him from using. But in life or death case scenarios, weve seen him use it. Just like in his Bankai. his Senkei if used right could impale every single one of those lame vizards at once. And with those thousands of blades surround him and his opponent(s) he could have plenty of blades go through each one of the vizards if he wanted to.

That's just Byakuya. You've got Soi-Fon who could run circles around the vizards, Hitsugaya who can freeze all the vizards, Komamura who could, well do something, Ukitake who can absorb any kido based attack, Shunsui who could hide in anyone shadows and stike a color, and Yama if need be to toast all of them at once.

AlB
May 19, 2010, 03:05 AM
Byakuya could own any of the lame ass vizards.

this statement alone already shows your attitude towards those particular characters and therefore all your posts lose a right to be considered objective.

vizardichigo
May 19, 2010, 03:10 AM
The outcasts will win but it wont be easy with Shunsui, Uki and Uno on SS's side...But the outcasts have this one..But AIB are you serious? Byakuya beating Hiyori is debatable? The only vizards that i see having a chance against him are Shinji who would beat him....Then maybe Kensei and Hacchi....

Rose's kinishara makes an explosion...Byakuya's petals are relentless,and extremely fast much likes Starrk's wolves and we all saw how well he did against those didnt we??? Face it, Kinishara would blow them away for a while until he is utterly overrun by his bankai..One explosion is not going to destroy hundreds of millions of tiny blades all at once...Maybe his bankai could beat Byakuya but until i see that, Byakuya wins...

Same goes for Love....His Tengumura is impressive, and has the ability to release fire, but can the fire block hundreds of millions of blades? And even if he does block all of them once, they will keep coming back over and over....They cant be destroyed....Not to mention Byakuya's speed and his kidou....Maybe his bankai as well could win but as for his shikai he would lose...Hacchi's kidou is probably above his which gives him a chance...Kensei has a ranged wind attacks and release energy blasts so he has a chance of beating him....But they only have a chance..

The only that i am sure would beat Byakuya is Shinji...Some of the others have a chance, others have none...However that could all change with their bankai's...If all their bankai's are revealed and they are all strong then they may all be able to beat him. but as of what we have seen thus far, with just their shikai, only Shinji...If their bankai allow them to beat him eventually then feel free to rub it in my face..

freshseth83
May 19, 2010, 05:54 AM
this statement alone already shows your attitude towards those particular characters and therefore all your posts lose a right to be considered objective.

tell me what the vizards did to make them anything but lame? Mashiro kicking WW, then losing her mask? Kensei going Bankai and losing? Love and Rose not even harming Starrk? Shinji trying to take on Aizen and getting schooled?

How is that not lame? How about Hiyori getting cut in half? And lisa getting swiped aside? Hachi was the only one to do any good, actually assisting in the defeat of Barragan, the others?- LAME.

AlB
May 19, 2010, 07:18 AM
tell me what the vizards did to make them anything but lame? Mashiro kicking WW, then losing her mask? Kensei going Bankai and losing? Love and Rose not even harming Starrk? Shinji trying to take on Aizen and getting schooled?

How is that not lame? How about Hiyori getting cut in half? And lisa getting swiped aside? Hachi was the only one to do any good, actually assisting in the defeat of Barragan, the others?- LAME.

1st: shinji and lisa were beaten by Teh gOd aIzEn sAMa. comparing people to the beast of aizen's level is unrealistic

2nd: WW was an arrancar who could withstand Yama's one fist strike and he was so damn fast that nearly pwned Urahara and most certainly pwned UkiFail. so yes, mashiro keeping up with him gives her great credit. and Kensei going Bankai and losing doesn't discredit him, remember how he nullified Hitsu's ice prison and Mashiro's mask? I'm pretty sure he nullified Kensei's bankai as well. fact is, WW was a powerhouse, complete pwnizator. he got beaten by yama, but who would stand against a guy like yama?

3rd: Rose and Love still had to go bankai, fight wasn't finished. I'm pretty tired of repeating: they clothes were damaged and they were a bit scratched, does that qualify as beaten?!

4th: Hyiori is a fail. that I do agree

Hystzen
May 19, 2010, 10:42 AM
i do wonder if love and rose been busy with starrk how would the fight with shunsui played out..he would win but dont think it would be with just shikai like everyone brags these days impressive yes but most enemies would be beat by shikai if they busy fighting other people.. *cough* tousen *cough*

edit: Hiyori is the worst character just above yammy really hate those 2 yet they keep going and going and going

Gran Maestro
May 19, 2010, 11:15 AM
i do wonder if love and rose been busy with starrk how would the fight with shunsui played out..he would win but dont think it would be with just shikai like everyone brags these days impressive yes but most enemies would be beat by shikai if they busy fighting other people.. *cough* tousen *cough*

Do you really want me to explain the difference between Shunsui's case and Hisagi's case? I believe you're smart enough to figure out the differences by yourself.

Depending on KK's mood, Shunsui could have won without anybody's intervention even with shikai. He could still have stabbed Stark in the shadow game because Stark was unaware of this ability and couldn't have avoided the first hit after he landed on the ground. And no matter what, when the color game started, Shunsui could have defeated Stark as he did in the manga.

kkck
May 19, 2010, 02:01 PM
WW not showing any damage after his fights is reasonable and says nothing about the strength his enemies have. He has great HSR and resurreccion heals him, regardless of when WW released it would be absurd for him to show any damage at all. Seriously, even when yama puched WW the first time and had half his body obliterated WW showed no damage at all. Also, take ulquiorra and his lesser HSR. The guy was basically a walking corpse and look perfectly healthy until he actually was disolving -not saying WW had any internal damage of the sort though, his superior HSR should have negated that, I am just saying his HSR basically makes him look unhurt unless he goes through utter obliteration.

Raizen
May 19, 2010, 02:14 PM
more impressive than Sakanade which inverses senses, more impressive than tachikaze that uses wind as weapon... riiiiight
Uh yes. What has shinji or even kensei shown? Shinji's shikai got completely counter by aizen in a matter of seconds, and kensei is probably on the ground drowning in his own blood even with bankai.
The reverse of sense won't matter for byakuya b/c he can attack EVERYWHERE. And kensei's technique has not been shown to use wind so stop making up facts. Even then, can he blow away millions and billions of blades? No


oh well, considering your deep hatred for Shinji's actual character I don't think there's any use to argue here, then again... you hate all vizards, so what's the point of arguing at all :darn anyway, shinji is far older, more experienced and battle-able captain than Byakuya. he is also tons faster, why? because he was faster than Grimmjow, who was faster than ichigo's bankai state, which was faster than byakuya's petals in bankai

it goes like this Shinji>Grimm unreleased>Ichigo Bankai>Byakuya's petals bankai
I don't hate shinji. i think he is a cool character. But based on manga evidence, nothing shows that he can beat byakuya. Byakuya is not the ttype to stand around. The moment the fight starts, he will use his shuunpo slash technique. He won't give shinji a chance to use his shikai. Even if that does happen, byakuya's petals can protect him from shinji while fighting him off. That is what makes byakuya so fearsome.

And no, shinji is not faster than byakuya. Using ichigo as a comparison is wrong b/c ichigo's powers fluctuate. The speed he has shown against byakuya has not been repeated AT ALL in this whole arc. If anything byakuya is faster since he was keeping up with the fastest sonido user


he doesn't need to catch him. all he needs to do is this http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/372/15/ and pop goes balloon byakuya and his petals. plus, have you seen the size of that thing? and how fast he swings it?

So byakuya will be standing there for him to attack? :notrust Byakuya is fast, very fast. Love is much too slow to hit byakuya. And that club will not be able to fend off the petals. If u think otherwise, then u need to reread the manga.


he's gonna do this http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/373/11/ and that's only 11th ability of his shikai mind you. imagine what his bankai is capable of!
To use that, he has to latch the whip onto an object then play a melody. Do u honestly think he will have time to do that against someone like byakuya? He will be drowning in petals if he attempts such a thing. And no, i don't need to imagine his bankai b/c frankly there is no point making up hypothetical bankais


first you that I espada fail, now you say that surprising VII Espada is a feat. :notrust ok whatever... why did he go shikai on hollow? because hollow was about to eat a child. he is not an idiot like byakuya who cares about appearences when there are lives at stake
I never said the espadas were fail. Also, hisagi was no where near the hollows. Furthermore, kensei had help http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/315.05/13/
If he was strong, he would have killed that hollow off easily like a real captain.

Byakuya on 1 leg was fast enough to surprise the fast sonido user of the espada, that is a feat


talking about yourself again? :amuse
<hr noshade size="1">
How childish. try using manga evidence to back up ur claim, then i might actually reconsider


what gives you the idea that lisa is fail?
btw: your favourite Shunsui said she is strong you know
then why did you say that getting trashed by aizen made shinji look weak? :notrust
Shunsui said he is strong b/c he also stated that having faith in your VC is part of a captains' job. That is his point
I don't get what u mean regarding shinji. Shinji got beat by having sakanade figured out the first time against aizen, the second time he was just standing on the sidelines and he still got owned


did you even read my post? :facepalm oh whatever... I don't care anymore.
oh and he is not melee type, he is wind type. talk about reading manga
Where is this wind coming from? B/c of the name? He has not shown wind based attacks. And his fighting style is similar to a meelee type


and everything everybody says is true right? oh the naivety
If we start being nitpicky about what the characters say as true or false, we ruin the story.


talk about reading manga again :facepalm
Prove me otherwise. If u can't then u fail
[hr]

WW not showing any damage after his fights is reasonable and says nothing about the strength his enemies have. He has great HSR and resurreccion heals him, regardless of when WW released it would be absurd for him to show any damage at all. Seriously, even when yama puched WW the first time and had half his body obliterated WW showed no damage at all.
He was still scratched and bruised even w/ HSR. When he entered the fight, he was completely unscathed. That means kensei couldn't even hurt him OR kensei lost to WW unreleased
http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/394/09/

kkck
May 19, 2010, 02:18 PM
http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/394/13/
Mere pages after the link you showed WW looked 100% though. You can´t say he was physically hurt just because he was halfway through regenerating.

Raizen
May 19, 2010, 02:22 PM
^ I just realized that lol. Anyways, lets compare.
We can all agree that shikai yamamoto is stronger than no zanpaktou yamamoto. Bare handed yama annihilated WW. Who defeated bankai Kensei. While shikai yama was fighting on basically par with the shikai of shunsui and uki.

So there is quite a big difference in strength. Basically it suggest that shunsui and uki could beat kensei in bankai as well

freshseth83
May 19, 2010, 05:34 PM
Easily. They stood against the master of all shinigami skills. Hand to Hand, Zanpakuto, Kido, Shunpo, strength, reiatsu... with just their shikai. But they would lose to vizards? HAHA, that's funny. At best the Vizards are as strong as maybe Hitsugaya, and then again I think he's above them. He has techniques with his ice that could freeze anyone. Based on what he said in the manga, the fact that he had less than one ice flower remaining, that meant his Bankai strength for the move he used against Hallibel was about 1/3 of what it could have been, which is why he wasn't afraid to use it. Now, lets say it was at 3/3 or 100% and he decides to use it against the outcasts. He could technically freeze everyone around him. He does control the atmosphere. Lets see Love and Rose use their weak tag team skills against that. That's just one captain. And not even one of the strongest of them either. Byakuya could use Senkei to trap multiple opponents inside the rows of 1000's of swords. If he wanted to he could have all those swords impale his opponents. The only thing stopping him from doing this is his pride. Not to mention he has Goukei and Hakuteiken to finish off anyone else he wants. And with Byakuya it's not limited to one TYPE of Bankai move. He can do them in succession. So there's 2 guys right there that could potentially take out more than 1 or 2 opponents at the same time. Then you have Kenpachi who has absurd amounts of strength, I'd bet he easily overpowers Kensei. Bring out the Kendo stick and he could blast away any of the outcasts. Shinji and his backwards thing is great and all, but that's situational. Not everyone wants to stand there and smell his shikai. I would think Shunsui could wrap bushogouma around him and blow the scent of his shikai away, or keep it to where it's only near shinji. Then he can call takaoni when he's above him and slice Shinji. If that don't work he could easily hide in a shadow and strike from wherever, let alone use the color game. And Ukitake is there for backup for anyone using kido based attacks, I'm sure he could absorb most of them and fire them straight back to the user at a higher speed.

kkck
May 19, 2010, 06:19 PM
^ I just realized that lol. Anyways, lets compare.
We can all agree that shikai yamamoto is stronger than no zanpaktou yamamoto. Bare handed yama annihilated WW. Who defeated bankai Kensei. While shikai yama was fighting on basically par with the shikai of shunsui and uki.

So there is quite a big difference in strength. Basically it suggest that shunsui and uki could beat kensei in bankai as well

Difference is shunsui and ukitake have "complementary" abilities and form a great team. In that sense, comparing them to other teams or individuals would be rather on the unfair side. I have no doubt "kyoraku and ukitake" would beat almost any other plausible bleach team on their own and even go as far as to fight evenly with people on tiers above them but individually they would not necessarily be as fantastic simply because they are fighting individually.

El Samurai Guapo
May 19, 2010, 06:53 PM
Where is this wind coming from? B/c of the name? He has not shown wind based attacks. And his fighting style is similar to a meelee type

http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/315.05/15/

Look at the bottom panel. If that's not wind cutting the hollow's head off then what is?

Raizen
May 19, 2010, 11:40 PM
http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/315.05/15/

Look at the bottom panel. If that's not wind cutting the hollow's head off then what is?
It is some sort of fire technique. Notice the explosion. Also similar to this
http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/220/03/
[hr]

Difference is shunsui and ukitake have "complementary" abilities and form a great team. In that sense, comparing them to other teams or individuals would be rather on the unfair side. I have no doubt "kyoraku and ukitake" would beat almost any other plausible bleach team on their own and even go as far as to fight evenly with people on tiers above them but individually they would not necessarily be as fantastic simply because they are fighting individually.
So we agree on 1 point :tem.
Individually, shunsui and uki are really powerful. Against the outcast, the only ones that can really stand a chance against them are isshin, urahara, and youruichi. But byakuya can take youruichi, unohana can take another, ken can take on isshin since their fighting style is similar if he isn't taking outrose, love and/or kensei lol. So it leaves shunsui and uki to deal damage to anyone else

freshseth83
May 20, 2010, 03:39 AM
the Gotei 13 are better skilled than the outcasts in my opinion. All of the outcasts together might have a decent chance, but then you put the gotei 13 captains together and it's a little hard to say they'd lose to the outcasts.

poobert
May 20, 2010, 06:43 AM
It is some sort of fire technique. Notice the explosion.

Only the sword is called tachikaze :P The anime says it is wind too, and when it comes to zanpakto ability, it is true to the manga.

Also isshin matched Aizen who is >>> ken, and Yoruichi >> byakuya, in speed, in power and in looks. She blitzed him while unfit, carrying a dead Ichigo (she must have trained between then and now, so her stamina should be up).

Raizen
May 20, 2010, 11:01 AM
^ We shouldn't be bringing the anime into this. From what i see, it is some sort of energy collected into the blade then fired out. It is not a wind technique like busho toma. But let's say for a moment that it creates a blade of wind similar to GT, are we forgetting GT was completely useless against byakuya? :blink

In the isshin vs aizen fight, isshin was fighting completely w/ sword combat, the same way ken does. What i am saying is based on that, ken should be able to take on isshin from what we have seen. (Now thinking about it, is isshin included in this fight?)
As for youruichi, she is faster than byakuya, but not enough to completely own him. If u think differently, then you need to read byakuya's fight against the 7th espada. Youruichi even goes as far to say that no one on the bridge would have been capable of beating byakuya.

Hystzen
May 20, 2010, 11:42 AM
Isshin not in this fight at time i posted Isshin wasent fighting Aizen and showing his strength..plus we dont know why he left the SS yet it could have been on good terms so he not really a outcast at moment.

Yourichi couldnt beat byakuya in combat but could prove a distraction for him..he has a compitetive streak to prove he is faster than her maybe could use that to advantage somehow

Raizen
May 20, 2010, 11:59 AM
^ So isshin is not in the fight, even worse for the outcasts.

That was byakuya when he was little. I think byakuya is pretty much on par w/ youruichi in strength. he is the strongest kuchiki in history and he excel in basically all fields of combat except hakudo, but if youruichi tries to punch him, he has a blade to counter :amuse

Hystzen
May 20, 2010, 12:06 PM
it that bad for outcasts..they got tessai and hacchi which there kido for defence..mashiro and yoruichi for hit and runs...love rose kensei brute force...with urahara shinji and rest it not that one sided fight ...both sides will have loses.

byakuya was annoyed in SS when she out sped him on bridge while carrying ichigo he was sure he was faster..but byakuya is cool i like him he would pound yoruichi yea be good fight to watch tho

Raizen
May 20, 2010, 12:21 PM
^ If they put up kido to block, their allies can't attack either. And their kido doesn't cover a wide area that blocks all attacks. Furthermore, they can be broken down

Mashiro will be killed by soifon if she tries such a thing. Youruichi will try to step in only to be intercepted by byakuya

Love and rose - If they aren't already killed by shunsui, they will be taken by komamura, kenpachi, hitsu, or actually any of teh captains. i can see soifon getting them w/ her shikai, i see hitsu beating them, koma is well there, and ken would own either of them

Kensei is the same, hitsu can take him or ken can murder him. Just think, tousen owned kensei and ken owned tousen w/ eyepatch on.

Urahara's inventions will be counter by mayuri's own tricks to some extent. There are still powerhouses left over on SS side: ukitake, unohana, shunsui, etc.

poobert
May 20, 2010, 12:21 PM
GT wasn't useless against byakuya. Just one swiped his shikai away, and it didn't really get a huge use in bankai (ignoring the hollow), so I guess I can't comment.

I think Ichigo showed byakuya's weakness. He has no defence. If yoruichi gets past his blades, he can't do anything. His sword disappears, and against shunko, he will be powerless.

imo, what yoruichi did recently to Aizen was pretty devastating. i know the arm things were made to counter hierro, but it was just nullified by the hogyoku, so despite it, there was still quite a bit of damage - more cracks than even Ichigo's assault and Urahara's contraption. Ichigo's power fluctuates, but not in the space of two chapters. He broke byakuya's senkei super wing commander special move, and then Aizen stopped it with a finger. This to me shows the power difference between a mid level captain (Ichigo and Byakuya) and a top level one like Yoruichi. She was actually able to do something when it is clear that byakuya's best move can be stopped by a hand (ichi was a bit weak, but he had been healed and his outfit was full, so his reatsu was nearly full).

Even if the speed is narrower than I expect, shunko will just increase the difference that much more. It is basically like her shikai/bankai.

Raizen
May 20, 2010, 12:48 PM
^ GT took byakuya's by surprised. But once he got serious, it got blocked easily
http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/161/15/
Also, i thought for sure he used GT in bankai as well, but can't seem to find it :XD

Youruichi is fast, but she isn't as fast as bankai ichigo in SS. i doubt she could do what he did. As u can see, byakuya can block the attacks with sz really fast. I don't think shuunko will be enough for her to bypass byakuya's bankai, even if the 1st stage gets passed, he can go senkei.

What makes u think youruichi is a top tier captain? I would say byakuya and youruichi are quite close to one another. Byakuya lost the will to fight once he realized ichigo was not fighting him, but the laws of SS. Also, he was conflicted the whole fight about which promise to uphold, the promise to his parents or the promise to his wife. Ichigo was getting beaten by ichigo until the hollow showed up and hit byakuya w/ 3 GT. And against aizen, i doubt that ichigo was full power. The time that passed between the fight and aizen was not very long, i doubt orihime can completely heal him that quickly

Gran Maestro
May 20, 2010, 01:20 PM
What makes u think youruichi is a top tier captain? I would say byakuya and youruichi are quite close to one another.

That's right. I like Yoruichi, she is classy but she is certainly not much more powerful than Byakuya, if more powerful at all. She hinted Byakuya was more powerful than her and she injured herself when she attacked espada #10 with her bare hands. If there was a considerable difference between unreleased Yammy's reiatsu (in his hierro) and hers, she wouldn't have been hurt, this is the most basic rule of Bleach. Unreleased Yammy is a joke compared to released WW but Yamamoto shrugged off released WW's punches and obliterated him with his bare hands. No, Yoruichi is not top tier at all, she's fast, that's it.

Random101
May 20, 2010, 01:28 PM
To be fair, Hierro works on slightly different principles, and going barehanded against the steel skin is slightly different than going bladed against steel skin. Blades you can reinforce by sharpening your reiatsu or whatever the hell Kenpachi was talking about. The hell can you do with your hands?

Regardless, someone like Byakuya probably takes her. I'm honestly starting to doubt she still has her zanpakuto, if she outright goes into a battle like this without such a thing.

Gran Maestro
May 20, 2010, 01:45 PM
To be fair, Hierro works on slightly different principles, and going barehanded against the steel skin is slightly different than going bladed against steel skin. Blades you can reinforce by sharpening your reiatsu or whatever the hell Kenpachi was talking about. The hell can you do with your hands?

True, a hierro has condensed reiatsu (http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/195/03/) but still if your reiatsu is overwhelming compared to an arrancar's reiatsu, even his hierro can't hurt you. Any top-tier character's reiatsu must be strong enough to crush unreleased Yammy with bare hands without any injury.

Raizen
May 20, 2010, 01:49 PM
I think yammi's hierro is pretty tough considering he shrugged off hitsu's shikai easily as well.
Youruichi is a strong character, but so if byakuya. From what she has shown, she is not a top tier

Pavitre
May 20, 2010, 02:28 PM
SS will win, no point in arguing this fact even, the vaizards were a complete disappointment, and everyone knows that.
To think that after holding a grudge for so many decades, they weren't even able to dent the enemy forces, rather they all fell without anything substantial( and mind you plz do not counter my arguements with the whole bankai thing, not worthwhile).
SS will win, the captains showed more strength in this battle then the vizards did,, duh.

kkck
May 20, 2010, 02:38 PM
True, a hierro has condensed reiatsu (http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/195/03/) but still if your reiatsu is overwhelming compared to an arrancar's reiatsu, even his hierro can't hurt you. Any top-tier character's reiatsu must be strong enough to crush unreleased Yammy with bare hands without any injury.

I doubt that is the case. Hierro should not be a problem for most captains provided they have proper reiatsu control and their swords but without such a basic tool taking yami with their barehands is unlikely. I do think urakitake, kyoraku or unohana should be quite faster than yami but I don't think a punch on their part would do that much damage. Even yoruichi, a hand to hand combat specialist, mentioned how it was an error to fight yami like that. I doubt shunsui, ukitake or unohana can actually crush other captain level attacks and whatnot with reiatsu alone.

Gran Maestro
May 20, 2010, 02:57 PM
I doubt that is the case. Hierro should not be a problem for most captains provided they have proper reiatsu control and their swords but without such a basic tool taking yami with their barehands is unlikely. I do think urakitake, kyoraku or unohana should be quite faster than yami but I don't think a punch on their part would do that much damage. Even yoruichi, a hand to hand combat specialist, mentioned how it was an error to fight yami like that. I doubt shunsui, ukitake or unohana can actually crush other captain level attacks and whatnot with reiatsu alone.

If captains like Shunsui are unable to take on unreleased Yammy with their bare hands, then how could Yamamoto defeat released WW? I mean since we know that Yamamoto's reiatsu is overwhelmingly stronger than released WW and released WW's reiatsu is overwhelmingly stronger than unreleased Yammy, then Shunsui's reiatsu is expected to be strong enough to defeat Yammy without much effort. If his hand-to-hand combat skills is not good enough, he may not do much damage with one hit but still he doesn't hurt himself because of vast reiatsu difference.

El Samurai Guapo
May 20, 2010, 03:09 PM
If captains like Shunsui are unable to take on unreleased Yammy with their bare hands, then how could Yamamoto defeat released WW? I mean since we know that Yamamoto's reiatsu is overwhelmingly stronger than released WW and released WW's reiatsu is overwhelmingly stronger than unreleased Yammy, then Shunsui's reiatsu is expected to be strong enough to defeat Yammy without much effort. If his hand-to-hand combat skills is not good enough, he may not do much damage with one hit but still he doesn't hurt himself because of vast reiatsu difference.

I think there is more to hierro (which is spanish for iron) than pure reiatsu. Nnoitora had the strongest hierro, he certainly did not have stronger reiatsu than the espada above him.

Yamamoto pulverized WW, sure, but who's to say he wouldn't have been bruised later on either?

Gran Maestro
May 20, 2010, 03:38 PM
I think there is more to hierro (which is spanish for iron) than pure reiatsu. Nnoitora had the strongest hierro, he certainly did not have stronger reiatsu than the espada above him.

Yamamoto pulverized WW, sure, but who's to say he wouldn't have been bruised later on either?

I replied in Hangout Thread (http://mangahelpers.com/forum/showthread.php?p=1919028#post1919028) because we're going off-topic and mods will probably delete these posts.

[Edit] lol the post in HT is gone. Actually posts from the last two days are all gone. Since they can't be off-topic (because it's the "Hangout Thread"), I guess there's something wrong with the forum database.

Raizen
May 20, 2010, 03:57 PM
The convo about hierro is irrelevant. In this fight, youruichi is not going to be able pulverize someone like she did yammi. Youruichi is cool and stuff, but has yet to show anything impressive that makes her anywhere near the top tier.

Again, byakuya will take her

Pavitre
May 20, 2010, 04:11 PM
The convo about hierro is irrelevant. In this fight, youruichi is not going to be able pulverize someone like she did yammi. Youruichi is cool and stuff, but has yet to show anything impressive that makes her anywhere near the top tier.

Again, byakuya will take her

exactly, I'v said this before as well, many ppl have hyped up urahara and all the ppl associated with him for no reason at all.
and on top of that, they'v completely placed them at a higher position than yama and other high tier captains, for what I ask.

if you remember kenpachi, also touched noitrra's skin while fighting him, but he didn't seem to feel any affect.

anyway, on topic, even though the ss outcasts or the vaizards were old captains, still they failed miserably in the battle compared to the captains.

But I have to say having a guy like Hacchi in their team would give the vaizards some sort of defensive advantage, since the captains don't have someone like him on the team. Even though i believe ss captains will win eventually, still thier teamwork with hachi at thier defensive core can lead to a good battle with them

Raizen
May 20, 2010, 04:16 PM
The vizard captains are really not up to par with the current captains IMO. Kensei got owned by 1 hit by tousen, same with the captains and vizards. Kenpachi with eyepatch on owned tousen. HUGE difference in power. Even the leader shinji has yet to show any impressive feats. With mask on he still couldn't kill unreleased injured grimjow.

In the current captains, the only one that may have trouble with the vizards is komamura.

And i don't see the hype surrounding urahara and co either. Yea urahara is smart, but people have placed him at and above yama's level. Which i find ridiculous. I'd say youruichi and urahara are between the level of kenpachi and shunsui

Hystzen
May 20, 2010, 05:34 PM
mods are like ninjas these days post going missing all time :tem

wasent kensei having trouble as he was starting to hollowfy when tousen jumped him cant memeber not read TBTP arc in a while.

koma, soi, histu would prob be beat i think histu is not that good in bankai unless keeps making up moves but he doesnt seem as fast as his shikai state.

Raizen
May 20, 2010, 05:43 PM
mods are like ninjas these days post going missing all time :tem

wasent kensei having trouble as he was starting to hollowfy when tousen jumped him cant memeber not read TBTP arc in a while.

koma, soi, histu would prob be beat i think histu is not that good in bankai unless keeps making up moves but he doesnt seem as fast as his shikai state.
http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/315.06/19/
He got owned by one strike
The rest of them were owned too
http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/315.09/15/

Hitsu has a great variety of attacks. hell his ice can freeze multiple outcasts at once. If he stops worrying about his allies, he can go all out.
Why do u think soifon is weak? Her shikai would kill all the VC easily by herself IMO. Her speed would also give her an advatage over love, rose and kensei as well

Hystzen
May 20, 2010, 05:46 PM
not saying she weak just with yoru there i cant see her fighting but if she does it not hard dodge her bankai really...her shikai you got get close and got sped to back it up i find her underestimated but in this fight if yoru goes for her first that removes her out of way ;) if ya get what i mean

Raizen
May 20, 2010, 05:48 PM
Ya, that is why i said byakuya will take youruichi. Soifon is too much of an emotional mess to fight youruichi.

And in this fight, she won't be using her bankai. Her shikai is enough and add in shuunko to add some boost

Hystzen
May 20, 2010, 05:50 PM
if byakuya goes on attack urahara prob get in the way he very protective of her :tem.

urahara prob make a battle plan he is smart and say who should attack who.

on the topic on shunko has we ever seen it apart from the yoru vs soi fon i dont member seen it work on someone and see how strong it is

Raizen
May 20, 2010, 05:54 PM
LOL if urahara gets in the way, mayuri will get in the way. But this is a mixed fight, so i am sure opponents will switch all the time. As long as soifon doesn't fight youruichi, she can wreak havoc on the outcast side.

And shuunko has not been shown outside of that one battle. i thought for sure soifon would use it in this battle but she didn't. Youruichi will probably use it

El Samurai Guapo
May 20, 2010, 05:55 PM
I don't see how there is still any doubt that Yoruichi is high-tier. Soi Fon herself is one of the stronger captains, just as strong as any of the others, yet a rusty Yoruichi who had been out of practice for 100 years still trumped her. That's enough to conclude that she's a step above the current gotei 13 captains.

Raizen
May 20, 2010, 05:57 PM
Youruichi was the perfect counter for soifon. Not to mention, soifon was being cocky and an emotional mess. if she kept on attacking with shikai instead of trying to use shuunko, it's be different.

Hystzen
May 20, 2010, 05:58 PM
exactly it a mixed fight i think people have been working this out like it a 1 on 1 like both sides gona divide and pick enemies :D.

that why i think it tessai and hachi for outcasts who are key to defence they can cover gaps pretty well.

shunko should be dangerous it just a huge build up of kido really just i wonder how usefull it is agaisnt people with higer reitsu build ups like kenpachi, shun, uki would it just be brushed away

Raizen
May 20, 2010, 06:05 PM
Yes it is a mixed fight, but in SS, they can take on basically any of the outcasts and win. That is the difference.

Tessai and hacchi are dangerous, but defensive walls won't be enough to win. Hell, shunsui can use the shadow game and go behind them after they put up a barrier, or maybe uki can absorb the barriers since they are made of reiatsu(?), or soifon can run around it and shikai them, byakuya the same, etc. The possibilities are endless

Hystzen
May 20, 2010, 06:11 PM
hmm take does make me wonder would ukitakes shikai affect kido like that i assume if it can absorb then return ceros kido should be affected dammit kubo make uki fight more. wouldnt rely on shunsui he damn lazy :p.

could do a trap technique put a barrier lure someone in then have a ally quickly jump in barriers could also contain the stronger ones while they pick off the weaker members

Raizen
May 20, 2010, 06:20 PM
I don't think hacchi or tessai has the skills to take down or trap strong fighters like uki, shunsui, or unohana lol. That is much too hard. If they could do that, they would have tried against aizen

And i agree, uki needs to redeem himself. I kept thinking he was going to fight aizen or something :\

freshseth83
May 20, 2010, 11:20 PM
His skills must be being saved for a future fight, perhaps with opponents that are more powerful than Aizen (i think he's just illusions). But straight up against someone I would say Ukitake would have a good chance to redeem himself. I do wonder if his power is based on absorbing Kido, or just kido based attacks. If it is kido and kido based attacks then I would assume he could absord kido attacks and send them back much the same as the ceros he absorbed from Starrk. This is why him and Kyoraku are a good team. He can take the long distance and kido while Shunsui can take the melee and up close. Perfect combination.

AlB
May 21, 2010, 12:39 AM
I don't think hacchi or tessai has the skills to take down or trap strong fighters like uki, shunsui, or unohana lol. That is much too hard. If they could do that, they would have tried against aizen

no, no, absolutely wrong. lol
Kido is Kido. even Aizen without hogyoku has to evade 90s level kidos from Urahara. what chance do Unohana, Kyoraku and Ukitake stand against tessai-sama and hachi-sama?


And i agree, uki needs to redeem himself. I kept thinking he was going to fight aizen or something :\

I too want Ukifail to redeem himself so I can drop the 2nd part of the ridiculous nickname I gave him :)

btw: where the hell did my last post here go? :blink

freshseth83
May 21, 2010, 12:55 AM
You act as if they can't do Kido? Those 3 have been along probably much longer than Tessai or Hacchi have been. I'm sure they know extreme amounts of kido skills. They are characters that are skilled in ways where they don't have to use large Kido spells to get the job done. Their reiatsu and skill allows them to stand against opponents normal shinigami, and captains even have trouble keeping up with in Bankai.

AlB
May 21, 2010, 06:37 AM
You act as if they can't do Kido? Those 3 have been along probably much longer than Tessai or Hacchi have been. I'm sure they know extreme amounts of kido skills. They are characters that are skilled in ways where they don't have to use large Kido spells to get the job done. Their reiatsu and skill allows them to stand against opponents normal shinigami, and captains even have trouble keeping up with in Bankai.

please, back up the bolded parts of your post with any real evidence. if you can, that is.

Hystzen
May 21, 2010, 10:09 AM
i can see ukitake been a kido user but saying better than tessai or hacchi dont see it happening as tessai and hacchi are specialists in kido...uki is a zan and kido base fighter. and the finger thing that shunusi did doesnt mean he a kido user better than tessai or hacchi.

Gran Maestro
May 21, 2010, 11:22 AM
Kidou itself is not enough to defeat most of the captains, people overrate kidou as if it's 100% effective instant win. You need an opening to bind/hit your target and you need other skills like zanjutsu and hakuda in case your kidou is dodged. Kidou is only one of the four basic shinigami arts and it's not enough to defeat a strong and versatile fighter, especially if this fighter is skillful at using his/her zanpakuto which is the most important weapon of a shinigami.

kkck
May 21, 2010, 01:03 PM
Kidou itself is not enough to defeat most of the captains, people overrate kidou as if it's 100% effective instant win. You need an opening to bind/hit your target and you need other skills like zanjutsu and hakuda in case your kidou is dodged. Kidou is only one of the four basic shinigami arts and it's not enough to defeat a strong and versatile fighter, especially if this fighter is skillful at using his/her zanpakuto which is the most important weapon of a shinigami.

Kido would be all that only if it wasn´t so hard to master and use. Strong kido takes long incantations which is kind of an issue in battle and skipping the incantation comes at the cost of power. In that sense, the purpose of kido in battle for non kido specialist should be not to use it as a winning card but rather to make up for deficiencies in the overall combat style or merely to add something new to it. Certainly people like hachi or tessai could use kido to replace their zampakuto abilities considering they seem capable of using extremely high level kido without incantations while at the same time get results which would be most likely close to what they would get with the incantation. Other people, simply would not or rather could never use kido to replace their bankai or even shikai but on the other hand fast, fully powered 90th kido could replace either of the two to some extent.

I noticed a few comments on hierro earlier in the thread and I get the impression people to some extent misinterpret it. I get the impression some people think hierro merely is what kempachi does while in reality it is something quite more extreme and most likely altogether different. Hierro was described as "concentrated reiatsu -spirit pressure- in their skins". What kempachi did before was merely release high emounts of reiatsu. An arrancars hierro, takes reiatsu and focuses high amounts of it in the skin to harden it. In that sense, hierro does not consider the actual amount of spirit energy but rather how much of it is concentrated in the skin. Basically, hierro does not depend on how much reiatsu an arrancar actually releases -if that was the case then it would be exactly what kempachi does- but rather an arrancar focuses a considerable amount of it in their skin as a special ability or trait.

Now, what should settle the matter of hand to hand combat vs hierro is not at all the actual amount of reiatsu either party has, that would be a severe misinterpretation of what is going on. A shinigami has protection due to the amount of reiatsu he has but an arrancar has exactly that AND hierro. The advantage and importance of it is rather obvious. What would decide hand to hand combat between a shinigami and an arrancar would be how the shinigami´s actual amount of reiatsu matches up against an arrancars actual amount of reiatsu and the concentration of reiatsu of their hierro. Yama, for instance, had enough reiatsu to get past WW´s reiatsu and his hierro although he did have to hit with every ounce of power he had to obliterate him -not that that makes it any less of a feat-. Now, in a less extreme situation I doubt such a thing would be possible. IMHO if anyone within the captain level hits something like a espada, there is a chance the punch would do something but it would also invariably lead to a few broken fingers at least. Seriously, yoruichi who is a hand to hand combat specialist got hurt from hitting yami, I doubt any captain but yama would get different results even if the arrancar in question is also yami.

Hystzen
May 21, 2010, 01:53 PM
^ very cool

i never got hierro coz everytime arrancar said they had it they got sliced like everybody else so kinda forget about it apart from yoruichi who has been affected by it.

but carefull hierro is off topic i will go missing like alot of posts lately.

the idea that aizen is perfect his becoz of his kido and zan skills he is effective in both skills....
which is why byauyka dangerous

freshseth83
May 21, 2010, 03:43 PM
please, back up the bolded parts of your post with any real evidence. if you can, that is.

do you read the manga or do you just come on the forums to blast people with things YOU THINK are true?

Look at the stats of the captains, Kido is it's highest for Unohana Shunsui and Ukitake.

Everyone knows Unohana uses Kido to heal. Ukitake used Kido to block lillynette's kick http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/336/10/ Shunsui used kido to own chad with his finger http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/106/15/ and just further proof of Shunsui's strength http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/106/07/ swatting away chad's attack like it was nothing, all the while sipping his Sake. That's just raw.

Gran Maestro
May 21, 2010, 04:09 PM
Kido would be all that only if it wasn´t so hard to master and use. Strong kido takes long incantations which is kind of an issue in battle and skipping the incantation comes at the cost of power. In that sense, the purpose of kido in battle for non kido specialist should be not to use it as a winning card but rather to make up for deficiencies in the overall combat style or merely to add something new to it. Certainly people like hachi or tessai could use kido to replace their zampakuto abilities considering they seem capable of using extremely high level kido without incantations while at the same time get results which would be most likely close to what they would get with the incantation. Other people, simply would not or rather could never use kido to replace their bankai or even shikai but on the other hand fast, fully powered 90th kido could replace either of the two to some extent.

I didn't mean to say Tessai or Hachigen's zanpakuto abilities are more effective than their kidou, it's just that I don't think kidou outweighs other shinigami arts and zanpakuto abilities. Some people make comments as if all kidou moves are supposed to connect and there's no escape. If someone solely depends on kidou in combat, he is in trouble against strong opponents. This is Bleach, not Fairy Tail (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fairy_Tail).


I noticed a few comments on hierro earlier in the thread and I get the impression people to some extent misinterpret it. I get the impression some people think hierro merely is what kempachi does while in reality it is something quite more extreme and most likely altogether different. Hierro was described as "concentrated reiatsu -spirit pressure- in their skins". What kempachi did before was merely release high emounts of reiatsu. An arrancars hierro, takes reiatsu and focuses high amounts of it in the skin to harden it. In that sense, hierro does not consider the actual amount of spirit energy but rather how much of it is concentrated in the skin. Basically, hierro does not depend on how much reiatsu an arrancar actually releases -if that was the case then it would be exactly what kempachi does- but rather an arrancar focuses a considerable amount of it in their skin as a special ability or trait.

Now, what should settle the matter of hand to hand combat vs hierro is not at all the actual amount of reiatsu either party has, that would be a severe misinterpretation of what is going on. A shinigami has protection due to the amount of reiatsu he has but an arrancar has exactly that AND hierro. The advantage and importance of it is rather obvious. What would decide hand to hand combat between a shinigami and an arrancar would be how the shinigami´s actual amount of reiatsu matches up against an arrancars actual amount of reiatsu and the concentration of reiatsu of their hierro. Yama, for instance, had enough reiatsu to get past WW´s reiatsu and his hierro although he did have to hit with every ounce of power he had to obliterate him -not that that makes it any less of a feat-. Now, in a less extreme situation I doubt such a thing would be possible. IMHO if anyone within the captain level hits something like a espada, there is a chance the punch would do something but it would also invariably lead to a few broken fingers at least. Seriously, yoruichi who is a hand to hand combat specialist got hurt from hitting yami, I doubt any captain but yama would get different results even if the arrancar in question is also yami.

Lol I exactly know what hierro is, actually I made a detailed explanation of it in one of my posts which I'm too lazy to look for. The strength of hierro is not directly proportional to the amount of reiatsu of the arrancar and thus the skin of some arrancars are harder despite their relatively low reiatsu. We can say some arrancars have the talent to condense more reiatsu than usual in their skins.

But I think nobody can say that the hierro strength in arrancars is random. If an arrancar has higher reiatsu than another arrancar, we can expect him to have stronger hierro because the amount of reiatsu in their skin is certainly relevant to their reiatsu to some extent.

Now, let's look at Yammy. Does he have stronger reiatsu than Nnoitra in his released form? Yes, he does. Did Kenpachi with eyepatch cut him like butter? Yes, he did. Can we say Yammy has extraordinary hierro? I don't think so. Likewise Ichigo cut off Yammy's arm as if it's a piece of paper.

Ok, we know that WW is very strong and his reiatsu in his released form is much stronger than Yammy's unreleased form. Can we expect released WW's hierro to be much stronger than unreleased Yammy's hierro? Yes, we can.

Let a = Released WW's hierro reiatsu / Unreleased Yammy's hierro reiatsu, R = Yamamoto's reiatsu / a.

Anybody who has R reiatsu must be able to hit Yammy without getting hurt. If a is not sufficiently high, then it means Ichigo can cut WW without much effort and reiatsu is almost irrelevant to hierro strength. But if a is as high as it must be, then I'm pretty sure we have lots of people who has R reiatsu. Either that or Yamamoto's reiatsu is beyond comparison.

freshseth83
May 21, 2010, 04:36 PM
You have to think back to what Ulquiorra said when he saw Ichigo first appear and cut Yammy's arm off. He said his reiatsu fluctuated between fodder, weak, and then it's maximum was above Ulquiorra himself.

With that said Ichigo could have had the reiatsu and the resolve and the morale to save Orihime and cut Yammy's arm like it was nothing. That was his reaitsu at a point POSSIBLY greater than Ulquiorra's, but only at that point. We all know how Ichigo's reiatsu fluctuates. So to say Yammy's hiero is weak isn't right. It's just that the reiatsu of Ichigo was very high at that point. But then it weakens. he could cut off an arm of someone that Yoruichi couldn't hurt with her hands. Swords and hands aren't alike, but Yoruichi is a hand to hand specialist. It just goes to show the difference in reiatsu. Especially taking Yama-jii into perspective.

Gran Maestro
May 21, 2010, 04:43 PM
You have to think back to what Ulquiorra said when he saw Ichigo first appear and cut Yammy's arm off. He said his reiatsu fluctuated between fodder, weak, and then it's maximum was above Ulquiorra himself.

With that said Ichigo could have had the reiatsu and the resolve and the morale to save Orihime and cut Yammy's arm like it was nothing. That was his reaitsu at a point POSSIBLY greater than Ulquiorra's, but only at that point. We all know how Ichigo's reiatsu fluctuates. So to say Yammy's hiero is weak isn't right. It's just that the reiatsu of Ichigo was very high at that point. But then it weakens. he could cut off an arm of someone that Yoruichi couldn't hurt with her hands. Swords and hands aren't alike, but Yoruichi is a hand to hand specialist. It just goes to show the difference in reiatsu. Especially taking Yama-jii into perspective.

What about Kenpachi? He chopped Yammy with eyepatch and without kendo.

freshseth83
May 21, 2010, 04:44 PM
And he was healed, so his reaitsu was restored.

Gran Maestro
May 21, 2010, 04:50 PM
I don't understand your point. Do you think unreleased Yammy's hierro strength is on par with released WW's? Do you think Kenpachi (with eyepatch and without kendo) can butcher WW as easily as he chopped Yammy?

freshseth83
May 21, 2010, 04:54 PM
did I say any of that?

I stated that Ichigo's reiatsu as observed by Ulquiorra was between weakling to above Ulquiorra himself. So using Ichigo's slicing off of Yammy's arm shouldn't be a good basis, because we don't know what his Reiatsu level was at that time. And no Yammy's skin isn't as hard as other espada's, but the point is some captains are stronger than other's. Ken-chan and Byakuya to me are stronger than Yoruichi and her fists.

Gran Maestro
May 21, 2010, 05:30 PM
There's miscommunication. lol

Here is my arguments, if you disagree with any of them, say so:

1) An arrancar's hierro strength is relevant to his reiatsu to some extent. Hierro strength is not random.

2) Yammy wasn't shown to have extraordinarily strong hierro. Kenpachi sliced him like bread.

3) Released WW's reiatsu was much stronger than unreleased Yammy's, so it's safe to assume that WW had much harder hierro.

4) As a consequence of first 3 items, if Yamamoto can punch WW without hurting himself, there may be other captains who can punch unreleased Yammy and not get injured.

What exactly do you disagree with? I'm comparing Yammy's hierro with WW's, assess Yammy's hierro strength in this context.
[hr]

I stated that Ichigo's reiatsu as observed by Ulquiorra was between weakling to above Ulquiorra himself. So using Ichigo's slicing off of Yammy's arm shouldn't be a good basis, because we don't know what his Reiatsu level was at that time. And no Yammy's skin isn't as hard as other espada's, but the point is some captains are stronger than other's. Ken-chan and Byakuya to me are stronger than Yoruichi and her fists.

The fluctuation in Ichigo's reiatsu (http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/193/20/) increased considerably only after Shirosaki interfered (http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/193/17/). Ichigo had already gotten stronger (http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/340/17/) when he met Ulquiorra the last time and even then he barely cut Ulquiorra's chest (http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/341/11/) after a severe blow (http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/341/10/). Since Yammy's hierro is much weaker than likes of WW's, can't we expect some captains to punch him without getting hurt?

[Edit] Forget all the above, I read another post of yours (http://mangahelpers.com/forum/showthread.php?p=1920019#post1920019) and you think Yamamoto's reiatsu may indeed be so stronger than other captains that even the difference between WW and Yammy's hierros is pale in comparison. I guess kkck says the same thing, it may be true but such difference is kinda weird.

kkck
May 21, 2010, 08:48 PM
I didn't mean to say Tessai or Hachigen's zanpakuto abilities are more effective than their kidou, it's just that I don't think kidou outweighs other shinigami arts and zanpakuto abilities. Some people make comments as if all kidou moves are supposed to connect and there's no escape. If someone solely depends on kidou in combat, he is in trouble against strong opponents. This is Bleach, not Fairy Tail (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fairy_Tail).

My comment about hachi was tessai was merely an example of people who could use kido to the utmost extremes and full potential, it was not really meant to say that much lol. I was merely trying to make a general point about kido. On another note, comparing kido and other shinigami arts IMO would be kinda hard and to a great extent would take things out of context. It also depends on what things exactly you include in each of those. For instance, would speed be included in the hand to hand combat part? Shunko could also be a grey area since it actually mixes the two of them pretty well. I would compare a discussion of this nature to the eternal pele-maradona issue. Some people say pele was the best and some people say maradona was the best football player in history (I refuse to call my favorite sport something as utterly atrocious as a made up name like soccer) but the truth is that making a proper comparison between the two is almost impossible since one was a mid fielder and one was a forward(completely different purposes in the game, how could you make a proper comparison?).


Lol I exactly know what hierro is, actually I made a detailed explanation of it in one of my posts which I'm too lazy to look for. The strength of hierro is not directly proportional to the amount of reiatsu of the arrancar and thus the skin of some arrancars are harder despite their relatively low reiatsu. We can say some arrancars have the talent to condense more reiatsu than usual in their skins.

But I think nobody can say that the hierro strength in arrancars is random. If an arrancar has higher reiatsu than another arrancar, we can expect him to have stronger hierro because the amount of reiatsu in their skin is certainly relevant to their reiatsu to some extent.

Now, let's look at Yammy. Does he have stronger reiatsu than Nnoitra in his released form? Yes, he does. Did Kenpachi with eyepatch cut him like butter? Yes, he did. Can we say Yammy has extraordinary hierro? I don't think so. Likewise Ichigo cut off Yammy's arm as if it's a piece of paper.

Ok, we know that WW is very strong and his reiatsu in his released form is much stronger than Yammy's unreleased form. Can we expect released WW's hierro to be much stronger than unreleased Yammy's hierro? Yes, we can.

Let a = Released WW's hierro reiatsu / Unreleased Yammy's hierro reiatsu, R = Yamamoto's reiatsu / a.

Anybody who has R reiatsu must be able to hit Yammy without getting hurt. If a is not sufficiently high, then it means Ichigo can cut WW without much effort and reiatsu is almost irrelevant to hierro strength. But if a is as high as it must be, then I'm pretty sure we have lots of people who has R reiatsu. Either that or Yamamoto's reiatsu is beyond comparison.

Actually that part in the post wasn't specifically meant for you(specially if you know exactly what hierro is and seem to agree with me). I should have separated it from the previous part lol. It was meant for a few comments back in the thread (I don't actually remember whose comments I was actually answering to though).

I don't think the strength of hierro is random at all, I see it mostly as a skill that can be mastered and improved beyond what it would be if left alone. The overall amount of reiatsu would have a say in the whole thing but IMO it'd be mostly as what the utmost limit of how hard hierro can be for a given arrancar with a given amount of reiatsu. For instance (this are random numbers don't take it so seriously) lets say we have arrancar with 100 and 10 worth of reiatsu. The first one would start with a hierro with 10 worth of reiatsu in his hierro and the second would start with 1 worth of hierro. Let say the second one trains a lot. The first one would still have 10 worth of reiatsu in his skin while the second could improve to say 3. Obviously the first arrancar would still have the stronger hierro by quite a bit but in turn the second one would have more skill with it since he can use the reiatsu he has more efficiently -this could mean nnoitora perhaps was actually right about having the best hierro among the espada-.

AlB
May 21, 2010, 11:27 PM
do you read the manga or do you just come on the forums to blast people with things YOU THINK are true?

Look at the stats of the captains, Kido is it's highest for Unohana Shunsui and Ukitake.

Everyone knows Unohana uses Kido to heal. Ukitake used Kido to block lillynette's kick http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/336/10/ Shunsui used kido to own chad with his finger http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/106/15/ and just further proof of Shunsui's strength http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/106/07/ swatting away chad's attack like it was nothing, all the while sipping his Sake. That's just raw.


I don't say they are kido pussies. but beating chad and blocking lillinette is not a greatest accomplishment for a captain (well, maybe it is for Ukifail, but not Shunsui). I asked you to prove why do you think that those 3 were around much longer than Tessai and why do you think they are better than Tessai and Hachi? and instead of answering me, you just go and tell me that Unohana can heal, Shunsui can beat chad and Ukitake can beat lillinete and that their stats are high. I don't know what you were answering but that definitely was not my question :notrust

oh and let me ask you if you are reading manga, since your statement "captains even have trouble keeping up with in Bankai" states otherwise

btw, don't be so agitated, I simply asked you to prove what I, and all those who read manga, would consider fanboy speculations


P.S.
I don't want this post reported, or deleted or anything. it is not insulting in any way.

Random101
May 21, 2010, 11:36 PM
Keep in mind Tessai was apparently around during their training days. When Urahara's about to sneak out alone in TBTP he directly mentions them training in Yoruchi's manner together or some such nonsense. Given I highly doubt a several century old Captain would do such a thing, it's pretty freaking obvious Kyoraku and Ukitake are far older. There's also their comment about the captains being replaced since 100 years ago, though I'll grant given the Kido captain is rarely ever seen, especially currently if there's any at all, he might fall under a loophole from such a statement. But the suggestion of him hanging out in Yoruichi's manner has pretty heavy implications in itself.

freshseth83
May 22, 2010, 03:07 AM
I don't say they are kido pussies. but beating chad and blocking lillinette is not a greatest accomplishment for a captain (well, maybe it is for Ukifail, but not Shunsui). I asked you to prove why do you think that those 3 were around much longer than Tessai and why do you think they are better than Tessai and Hachi? and instead of answering me, you just go and tell me that Unohana can heal, Shunsui can beat chad and Ukitake can beat lillinete and that their stats are high. I don't know what you were answering but that definitely was not my question :notrust

oh and let me ask you if you are reading manga, since your statement "captains even have trouble keeping up with in Bankai" states otherwise

btw, don't be so agitated, I simply asked you to prove what I, and all those who read manga, would consider fanboy speculations


P.S.
I don't want this post reported, or deleted or anything. it is not insulting in any way.

i don't get agitated at all. But it states in the story that only Unohana Shunsui and Ukitake (besides of course Yama) were CAPTAINS for over 100 years in the TBTP arc. If you paid attention in the SS arc, Yama states Shunsui and Juushiro were the first two students to graduate from his academy. In fact they were trained by Yama. They were his favorites. And I guess that's why they are considered the best. Since they were his own pupils, and stars at that. I don't know what else you're asking either. When I said captains I meant that some captains can't keep up with characters that Shunsui and Co. can when those other captains are in Bankai.

Gran Maestro
May 22, 2010, 04:24 AM
My comment about hachi was tessai was merely an example of people who could use kido to the utmost extremes and full potential, it was not really meant to say that much lol. I was merely trying to make a general point about kido. On another note, comparing kido and other shinigami arts IMO would be kinda hard and to a great extent would take things out of context. It also depends on what things exactly you include in each of those. For instance, would speed be included in the hand to hand combat part? Shunko could also be a grey area since it actually mixes the two of them pretty well. I would compare a discussion of this nature to the eternal pele-maradona issue. Some people say pele was the best and some people say maradona was the best football player in history (I refuse to call my favorite sport something as utterly atrocious as a made up name like soccer) but the truth is that making a proper comparison between the two is almost impossible since one was a mid fielder and one was a forward(completely different purposes in the game, how could you make a proper comparison?).

Pele is unarguably the best, ok? :p

Well, just for the sake of clarification (I don't say you disagree with me), my point is "you have to look at the total package to assess a shinigami's strength." By total package, I mean four shinigami arts, zanpakuto abilities and of course reiatsu. If I'm much faster than Hachigen, if I have more reiatsu than Hachigen, if I did master my zanpakuto, if I'm a great swordsman and if I'm smart enough to know I don't want to get trapped in Hachigen's barriers, there's no way Hachigen can defeat me by himself. Kidou may be a great supportive ability but it doesn't magically (no pun intended) solve all your problems and render every other ability useless. Even if you know kidou, your opponent may dodge your attack and you should be able to hold your own when, for example, he is swinging his sword at you.


I don't think the strength of hierro is random at all, I see it mostly as a skill that can be mastered and improved beyond what it would be if left alone. The overall amount of reiatsu would have a say in the whole thing but IMO it'd be mostly as what the utmost limit of how hard hierro can be for a given arrancar with a given amount of reiatsu. For instance (this are random numbers don't take it so seriously) lets say we have arrancar with 100 and 10 worth of reiatsu. The first one would start with a hierro with 10 worth of reiatsu in his hierro and the second would start with 1 worth of hierro. Let say the second one trains a lot. The first one would still have 10 worth of reiatsu in his skin while the second could improve to say 3. Obviously the first arrancar would still have the stronger hierro by quite a bit but in turn the second one would have more skill with it since he can use the reiatsu he has more efficiently -this could mean nnoitora perhaps was actually right about having the best hierro among the espada-.

Hmm, IIRC nobody mentioned that hierro is a skill that can be improved, I always thought the hierro strength was fixed for any given arrancar but I may be wrong.

The reason why I brought up this hierro issue was because I thought a high-tier captain would have had enough reiatsu to bypass the hierro of the weakest espada who didn't have extremely hard hierro (or wasn't very skillful at hardening his hierro). After seeing Yamamoto defeat WW with bare hands, I thought punching Yammy would have been no big deal for any high-tier captain because Yammy's hierro is vastly inferior to WW. (Even if it's 10 vs 3) But it seems people think the inferiority of the reiatsu of high-tier captains compared to Yamamoto's outweighs the inferiority of Yammy's hierro to WW's, so my point has become moot.

AlB
May 22, 2010, 09:28 AM
i don't get agitated at all. But it states in the story that only Unohana Shunsui and Ukitake (besides of course Yama) were CAPTAINS for over 100 years in the TBTP arc. If you paid attention in the SS arc, Yama states Shunsui and Juushiro were the first two students to graduate from his academy. In fact they were trained by Yama. They were his favorites. And I guess that's why they are considered the best. Since they were his own pupils, and stars at that. I don't know what else you're asking either. When I said captains I meant that some captains can't keep up with characters that Shunsui and Co. can when those other captains are in Bankai.

captains of Gotei 13 actually. Kido corps is different organization and different story. I agree those 4 were only captains for over 100 years, but we don't know about kido corps.
+ Ukitake and Shunsui are "Taichō". according to Yama they were the first "Taicho" from academy. Tessai is "Dai Kidōchō", he is not "Division Captain", he is "Kido corps commander". I don't know much Japanese, but I can tell that Tessai is different category than Uki and Shunsui. there's no proof that they are older than Tessai. true, we can't prove the opposite as well, but my point is, that you shouldn't go and say that Shunsui and uki are much older than Tessai without anything to back up your statement.

Random101
May 22, 2010, 11:11 AM
Save, obviously, that he'd been around Yoruichi's mansion back during the training phase, which makes little sense for a centuries old captain.

AlB
May 22, 2010, 04:41 PM
Save, obviously, that he'd been around Yoruichi's mansion back during the training phase, which makes little sense for a centuries old captain.

why not? is it wrong to train with friends? look at those 3
shunsui, centuries old captain, still chases chicks and drinks sake every other day.
Ukitake, centuries old captain, always tends to play with little kids, even in the heat of battle.
Unohana, centuries old captain who ukitake or shunsui refered to a senpai, always finds time to look after flowers. hell, she is a president of a flower club :)

you say it would be odd for centuries old captain to train with friends?

Random101
May 22, 2010, 04:50 PM
And why would a centuries year old captain suddenly buddy up and train with two novices? Keep in mind the manor shenanigans were prior to them becoming captains according to the previous flashback. In addition, he's the Kido Captain. That makes it far more odd in general given their wildly different combat specialties. Up and out of nowhere a century's year old captain decides to buddy up with two novices far outside his main field in general?

Far more sensible if all three worked from the bottom up, just mastering different fields in the process. Granted all speculation, but it's a far more logical one given current information at hand.

El Samurai Guapo
May 22, 2010, 06:54 PM
/sigh

All this debate about age is getting irritating. People will use age as an argument when it's convenient to them, but other times completely disregard it. Take the vaizards captains for instance, a lot of you here say that they're weaker than current captains, despite the fact that most of the current captains were still kids when the vaizards were captains. Not to mention they lack the added strength of being hybrids, but somehow they're still weaker in the minds of some of you. Age is irrelevant here, but as soon is the discussion includes the likes of Yamaji, Retsu, Juushirou and Shunsui age suddenly becomes the most important damn thing.

Who cares if Tessai is older or younger than Juushirou or Shunsui? If anyone is using age as an argument for Tessai being weaker, it's probably because they have little else to go by.

Raizen
May 24, 2010, 01:11 PM
^ Age applies differently to each indidvidual. if the inidvidual has a higher limit then someon else, yes age would matter, if they don't it doesn't. Obviously shunsui and uki have higher limits then others like teh vizards b/c their strengths have been remarked and hype out throughout the manga. Furthermore, the author has gone out of his way to say their age is a huge factor to their strength.

The vizards on the other hand are like children. Rose was just made captain not too long ago and he seems pretty old. Byakuya may be young, but his limits are extremely high, being the strongest of all the kuchikis, same with hitsu. they became captains in such a small timeframe that makes age irrelevant when compared to those with lower limits.

En Yang Ji
May 24, 2010, 02:02 PM
The vizards seem stronger than your giving them credit for. I think their limits are either are higher to that of comparable to Shunsui or Ukitake.

- The fact that the vizards were able to keep up with Starrk and take blows from him prove their strong. They have to have high reiastu to take one of Starrks stronger attacks, multiple times without a mask, and come out with only bruises. They also have to have considerable ability to even fight Starrk, with just their shikai's.

Rose and Love strength seems to be of an comparable level to Shunsui and Ukitake. Albeit, I think Shunsui and Ukitake are stronger overall.

Another thing is the strength Shunsui and Ukitake showed against Starrk, was what they were capable of with their shikai after reaching nearly 90% of their limits as a shinigami. Rose and Love were able to match Starrk as well, but they haven't had nearly as much time to reach their limit.

Raizen
May 24, 2010, 02:15 PM
^^ How are they even comaprable to shunsui or uki limits? Please explain.

1. They didn't keep up w/ starks. Starks was slowed down due to seeing barragan taken down. yet, rose and love still had a tough time viewing his movements. Furthermore, the first time we see them, they were on theground in rubbles. If starks was serious, he could lit that whole place w/ ceros. Note that their shikais couldn't even injure or scratch starks, so there is a HUGE difference in skills and reiatsu

Rose and Love, even with the boost in their limits from the mask were still novices to shunsui and uki. And they spent ALL tehir time in the last century perfecting it. Shunsui even scolded them. Uki didn't really fight w/ starks, he was joking around msot of the time. Shunsui killed starks when he got serious. Again, he was able to harm starks while both rose and love couldn't.

En Yang Ji
May 24, 2010, 02:25 PM
IMO Love and Rose performed on a similar to Shunsui and Ukitake. Both Love and Rose were able to take Starrks attacks multiple times, this proves they have a lot of reiastu.

- Starrk's s even said they were strong. While it's true that Love didn't injure Starrks with that one attack it doesn't prove anything. He hit Starrk with one arm. He proved he was able to overpower Starrk when he pushed him back.

- Love and Rose were fighting Starrk before he became demoralized.

While Love and Rose weren't able to damage Starrk when he was using his guns, Starrk wasn't either. Starrk was only able to damage them when he used the wolves.

- IMO saying Shunsui beat Starrk when he became serious is misleading. Shunsui wanted to end the battle as quickly as possible, he would of done it sooner if he could. Without the vizards interference he most like wouldn't have been able to sneak attack Starrk or play Irooni and he most likely wouldn't have won.

Raizen
May 24, 2010, 02:37 PM
^ What do u mean multiple attacks? The only attack that hit them was the wolves. The cero got blocked not by love's skills, but b/c his shikai was so damn big. And the wolves messed them up. Starks is not one to be confident. He kept wondering why he was fighting someone soo storng like shunsui. but not once did he complain about fighting both love and rose. Why? B/c love and rose combined were still not as impressive as shunsui was in his eyes. Starks was confident he could deliver the final blow.

Starks sd they were strong enough to not die by his cero, not in the smae context of strong as he used for shunsui.
It proves EVERYTHING that even with a blank hit w/ shikai and mask, not a single scratch was on starks nor was he even affected. He overpower starks b/c his club in the size of a skycraper. And it didn't mean anything

Starks began to slow down after barragan was taken down, which was just b4 he laid rose and love to the ground in rubbles.

Starks outmaneuvered them both. he moved so fast they didn't know where he was. The only time starks got serious was when he started using the wolves.

shunsui was playing around, he may have wanted to end the fight, but he didn't have access to all the power that he later displayed. The moment he got truly serious, starks went down. Rose and Love were serious from the start, yet they got owned

En Yang Ji
May 24, 2010, 02:49 PM
-Rose and Love were hit by the wolves multiple times.

- Starrk said those guys are strong. It's likely he was talking about Love and Rose. He was fighting them when he said that.

- What do you mean about being serious? Shunsui can't choose what game he can use otherwise he would of used Irooni. Even if he could, it seems it wouldn't matter because KK decides the rules. If Irooni can change the rules so much that it makes Shunsui decide not to use the game it's just as bad as him not being able to choose the game.

- If Starrk really was much stronger than Love and Rose he would have severely injured or killed them before Barragan died.

El Samurai Guapo
May 24, 2010, 03:35 PM
^ Age applies differently to each indidvidual. if the inidvidual has a higher limit then someon else, yes age would matter, if they don't it doesn't. Obviously shunsui and uki have higher limits then others like teh vizards b/c their strengths have been remarked and hype out throughout the manga. Furthermore, the author has gone out of his way to say their age is a huge factor to their strength.

The vizards on the other hand are like children. Rose was just made captain not too long ago and he seems pretty old. Byakuya may be young, but his limits are extremely high, being the strongest of all the kuchikis, same with hitsu. they became captains in such a small timeframe that makes age irrelevant when compared to those with lower limits.

If the vaizard captains only became captains shortly before the events of TBTP, then how the hell do you know if they were even close to reaching their limits as shinigami or not? How do you know they've reached them now? You don't, so obviously your argument is flawed. You say that the vaizards have lower limits, but this is solely your own subjective thoughts.

The way I see things, all individuals who manage to rise to the rank of captain are exceptionally gifted shinigami. They're one in a hundred thousand. I wouldn't call any of them weak, or say that they have low limits. I think that if any of the current Gotei 13 captains were to fight each other, each match would be a lot closer than most like to believe. Same with any former Gotei captains. Now, were any of those captains or ex-captains to become hybrids, then their genkai obviously becomes much higher than their shinigami-only counterparts.

Love and Rose were former shinigami captains who became hybrids and have had 100 years to train with their masks. If Starrk thought that the fight was over because he managed to tear up their clothes a bit, then he was just plain wrong. I really don't care what kind of guy some of you felt Starrk was, he's not immune to being incorrect (or to be bluffing for that matter).

freshseth83
May 25, 2010, 05:19 AM
Face it, the Vizards were a let down besides Hacchi.

They couldn't do to Starrk together what Shunsui did by himself. Starrk remarked at how strong SHUNSUI was, not at those weaklings called Love and Rose. He said I'll give you the chance to run away, they were beaten. They knew it and so did Starrk. All he had to do was one more move and both of them would be dead. They couldn't even dodge his ceros, they swung aimlessly at them and tried dearly to do the same to the unbreakable wolves. They showed no type of skill whatsoever. Their stupid shikai's were big bulky slow (love) and flashy ill-fitted and useless (rose). Even with masks on they were blown away. There was no hope of them winning.

People talk like others don't know what they're saying when we talk about age and experience in captains. But then bring up points that are blatantly false. 100 years of training with their masks and they still couldn't keep them on for more than a minute or so? Ichigo had used his mask at most twice and could hold it longer than both of them (against grimmjow). That's pathetic and it shows that they have a low ceiling. Shunsui comes in when his swords were in the 'mood' (much like himself after hearing Lisa say how strong she was) and stabs Starrk, calls out a color game, gives Starrk the rules and a chance, but still kills him. He even looks remorsefully down when he ended his life. After all that, he called Rose and Love 'kids'. Rose had the nerve to say you have no style, Shunsui quickly rebutted him and said, only UNDERLINGS get caught up in style and lose the battle (Rose and Love lost), a captain can't afford such luxuries. Basically he's telling Rose and Love they were worthless and shouldn't even be considered captains for that weak performance they just did against Starrk. If they were captains they would be more concerned about winning and not just showing off. Another thing he said was, don't try to act like good KIDS, once you enter a war you're in the wrong either way.

Like Shunsui said, underlings get caught up in style and lose the battle. Rose and Love were underlings, kids to Shunsui. He spoke to them wisely after they even said thank you, but tried to make it seem like they had the win, when it was clear they had lost. They'd have no chance to beat him. Much the same as the rest of the outcasts. They wren't great captains to begin with. Only Shinji Tessai Hacchi Urahara and Yoruichi were considerable in terms of strength and abilities. SS would crush the Vizards and outcasts.

AlB
May 25, 2010, 07:04 AM
Face it, the Vizards were a let down besides Hacchi. The rest were hyped up by people like Ki0 and El Sam-or-I.

They couldn't do to Starrk together what Shunsui did by himself. Starrk remarked at how strong SHUNSUI was, not at those weaklings called Love and Rose. He said I'll give you the chance to run away, they were beaten. They knew it and so did Starrk. All he had to do was one more move and both of them would be dead. They couldn't even dodge his ceros, they swung aimlessly at them and tried dearly to do the same to the unbreakable wolves. They showed no type of skill whatsoever. Their stupid shikai's were big bulky slow (love) and flashy ill-fitted and useless (rose). Even with masks on they were blown away. There was no hope of them winning.

People talk like others don't know what they're saying when we talk about age and experience in captains. But then bring up points that are blatantly false. 100 years of training with their masks and they still couldn't keep them on for more than a minute or so? Ichigo had used his mask at most twice and could hold it longer than both of them (against grimmjow). That's pathetic and it shows that they have a low ceiling. Shunsui comes in when his swords were in the 'mood' (much like himself after hearing Lisa say how strong she was) and stabs Starrk, calls out a color game, gives Starrk the rules and a chance, but still kills him. He even looks remorsefully down when he ended his life. After all that, he called Rose and Love 'kids'. Rose had the nerve to say you have no style, Shunsui quickly rebutted him and said, only UNDERLINGS get caught up in style and lose the battle (Rose and Love lost), a captain can't afford such luxuries. Basically he's telling Rose and Love they were worthless and shouldn't even be considered captains for that weak performance they just did against Starrk. If they were captains they would be more concerned about winning and not just showing off. Another thing he said was, don't try to act like good KIDS, once you enter a war you're in the wrong either way.

Like Shunsui said, underlings get caught up in style and lose the battle. Rose and Love were underlings, kids to Shunsui. He spoke to them wisely after they even said thank you, but tried to make it seem like they had the win, when it was clear they had lost. They'd have no chance to beat him. Much the same as the rest of the outcasts. They wren't great captains to begin with. Only Shinji Tessai Hacchi Urahara and Yoruichi were considerable in terms of strength and abilities. SS would crush the Vizards and outcasts.

I told you 1000000 times and I'm certainly going to say it 1000001st time: torn clothes and few scratches don't qualify as beaten!!! no matter who says what! espacially an intelligent enemy to whom psychological attack is as important as physical one.

yes, shunsui lectured love and rose. so what?!there's nothing to be ashamed of he is older than they are! they accept his wisdom and thank him for it. this is how it works with japs. youngsters respect elder generation, it doesn't mean that they are weakling pussies compared to elder people!

and about not being able to keep their masks for long: dude, they were used as lab rats. their hollowfication was a product of foul, inhuman experiment. they are not natural hybrids like ichigo.

swinging aimlessly at them, bolded part of your post makes no sense to me. swinging at what?
ceros? you call what love was doing to ceros swinging aimlessly? wow :blink http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/372/06/
wolves? I'd like to see shunsui fight wolves. espacially if stark calls out wolves' colors

Raizen
May 25, 2010, 11:59 AM
-Rose and Love were hit by the wolves multiple times.

- Starrk said those guys are strong. It's likely he was talking about Love and Rose. He was fighting them when he said that.

- What do you mean about being serious? Shunsui can't choose what game he can use otherwise he would of used Irooni. Even if he could, it seems it wouldn't matter because KK decides the rules. If Irooni can change the rules so much that it makes Shunsui decide not to use the game it's just as bad as him not being able to choose the game.

- If Starrk really was much stronger than Love and Rose he would have severely injured or killed them before Barragan died.
1. Yea, and they got screwed.

2. He said they were strong enough to survive the cero. Not the same context of strong as was used with shunsui

3. When u play a game, the rules are already present. Like if u play chess, there are rules for that already. hence KG chooses teh rules. KG was not in teh mood in that it wouldn't apply the rules. SO if u win a game, the opponent does not die or gets injured. Once KG got in the mood, shunsui win was flawless

4. Did u miss this page
http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/372/01/
They were in rublles. If starks was serious he would have kept attacking with his 1000 ceros.

En Yang Ji
May 25, 2010, 12:13 PM
1. Yea, and they got screwed.

2. He said they were strong enough to survive the cero. Not the same context of strong as was used with shunsui

3. When u play a game, the rules are already present. Like if u play chess, there are rules for that already. hence KG chooses teh rules. KG was not in teh mood in that it wouldn't apply the rules. SO if u win a game, the opponent does not die or gets injured. Once KG got in the mood, shunsui win was flawless

4. Did u miss this page
http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/372/01/
They were in rublles. If starks was serious he would have kept attacking with his 1000 ceros.



- How were they screwed? They had a couple bruises and a bit of blood on them.

- He said they were strong before that as well, when Love knocked him to the ground.

- That doesn't prove my point wrong though. If Shunsui decided not to play Irooni earlier because he can't control his zanpaktou's moods, it's the same as if he wasn't able to choose the game. Shunsui can't fight as effectively as he wants, when he wants. That's one of the reason he was at a disadvantage against Starrk.

- IMO Starrk knew it was no point in attack with cero's because Love would just swat them away. Also they were most likely in the rubble because of cero's. Think about it, Starrk was only using guns at that time, how would he send to the ground unless he used cero's?

Raizen
May 25, 2010, 12:30 PM
If the vaizard captains only became captains shortly before the events of TBTP, then how the hell do you know if they were even close to reaching their limits as shinigami or not? How do you know they've reached them now? You don't, so obviously your argument is flawed. You say that the vaizards have lower limits, but this is solely your own subjective thoughts.

The way I see things, all individuals who manage to rise to the rank of captain are exceptionally gifted shinigami. They're one in a hundred thousand. I wouldn't call any of them weak, or say that they have low limits. I think that if any of the current Gotei 13 captains were to fight each other, each match would be a lot closer than most like to believe. Same with any former Gotei captains. Now, were any of those captains or ex-captains to become hybrids, then their genkai obviously becomes much higher than their shinigami-only counterparts.

Love and Rose were former shinigami captains who became hybrids and have had 100 years to train with their masks. If Starrk thought that the fight was over because he managed to tear up their clothes a bit, then he was just plain wrong. I really don't care what kind of guy some of you felt Starrk was, he's not immune to being incorrect (or to be bluffing for that matter).
Them taking that long to become captain shows that they are not that great. Furthermore, the skills they show as captain was not anything even close to impressive. They were low ranked captains. Byakuya went from a kid to captain in 50 years, same with gin, not to mention hitsu was extremely young. Those guys have what is said to be great potential and limits.

Where did u get 1 in a thousand? Stop making numbers up. Yes, gaining captainship is good, but not great. Just being captain does not mean u are strong or high on the list of powerful fighters. Ken killed the previous 11th division captain with ease, love rose and the rest of the vizards were fail. They got owned by one hit by tousen. Freaking tousen!! They have no feats that makes them any stronger. And just having a mask does not automatically make them as strong as someone higher than them. A million times 0 is still 0 ;)
[hr]

- How were they screwed? They had a couple bruises and a bit of blood on them.

- He said they were strong before that as well, when Love knocked him to the ground.

- That doesn't prove my point wrong though. If Shunsui decided not to play Irooni earlier because he can't control his zanpaktou's moods, it's the same as if he wasn't able to choose the game. Shunsui can't fight as effectively as he wants, when he wants. That's one of the reason he was at a disadvantage against Starrk.

- IMO Starrk knew it was no point in attack with cero's because Love would just swat them away. Also they were most likely in the rubble because of cero's. Think about it, Starrk was only using guns at that time, how would he send to the ground unless he used cero's?
1. Starks was about to deliver the final blow. Starks mocked them and said that they can run away and he will look the other way. None of them had a counter remark b/c they know they were in deep shit

2. Post the page

3. As gran has posted b4, the mood thing was nothing but a plotkai to give the vizards an opponent to fight, the same way plotkai cheated ukitake. I am sure that the mood won't come into play again. Furhtermore, even w/o the cooperation of his zanpaktou, he was still able to keep up with the released 1st espada

4. I don't know how they were on the ground, fact of the matter is they were. Starks could have kept attacking. Shooting them with a barrage of cero would screw with them if not kill them. Love's big club was not a factor at the time. Again, there is a big difference in the strength since not one of their attacks injured starks while shunsui's did

En Yang Ji
May 25, 2010, 12:37 PM
Do you think Shunsui and Ukitake would of performed differently? The vizards were attacked from behind and had no idea what was going on or what Tousen's bankai was.

If Shunsui and Ukitake were in that situation they would of most likely gone down just as fast.
[hr]

1. Starks was about to deliver the final blow. Starks mocked them and said that they can run away and he will look the other way. None of them had a counter remark b/c they know they were in deep shit

2. Post the page

3. As gran has posted b4, the mood thing was nothing but a plotkai to give the vizards an opponent to fight, the same way plotkai cheated ukitake. I am sure that the mood won't come into play again. Furhtermore, even w/o the cooperation of his zanpaktou, he was still able to keep up with the released 1st espada

4. I don't know how they were on the ground, fact of the matter is they were. Starks could have kept attacking. Shooting them with a barrage of cero would screw with them if not kill them. Love's big club was not a factor at the time. Again, there is a big difference in the strength since not one of their attacks injured starks while shunsui's did

- Starrk was going to try to deliver a final blow. He doesn't know either of their bankai, that's why he doesn't know their true strength. Starrk being confident proves nothing Love was just as confident after taking one of Starrks's strongest attacks.

- http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/372/10/

- It still a weakness

- If Starrk was much stronger than them, could they tank multiple explosions from Starrk's wolves?

Raizen
May 25, 2010, 01:41 PM
Do you think Shunsui and Ukitake would of performed differently? The vizards were attacked from behind and had no idea what was going on or what Tousen's bankai was.

If Shunsui and Ukitake were in that situation they would of most likely gone down just as fast.
<hr noshade size="1">

- Starrk was going to try to deliver a final blow. He doesn't know either of their bankai, that's why he doesn't know their true strength. Starrk being confident proves nothing Love was just as confident after taking one of Starrks's strongest attacks.

- http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/372/10/

- It still a weakness

- If Starrk was much stronger than them, could they tank multiple explosions from Starrk's wolves?
No they wouldn't. The moment they knew something was wrong they'd react much faster. lets take kenpachi for consideration. Kenpachi is portrayed as weaker than shunsui and uki. Yet he adjusted and shook off tousen with his eyepatch on!!! The vizards are fail, nothing more to it.

A bankai increases about 1 of your abilities. In love's case it will be his power. It won't matter b/c he is not fast enough to hit starks. Furthermore, he had them by the ropes. None of tehm reputed the statement that starks could finsih them now. And what do u mean strongest attack? You mean the ceros? All love did was block it w/ his gargantua shikai, nothing impressive about his actual feat

So he did say they were strong. he acknowleded their strength yet was still confident he could beat them both. That was not his attitude w/ shunsui. B/c the term "strong" in regards to love and rose is different than the one applied to shunsui

Lets see if that will ever come up again

They didn't tank it. tanking it means that they took it and shook it off like it was nothing. Love and rose were in a bad situation.

En Yang Ji
May 25, 2010, 01:58 PM
- Kenpachi knew he was under Tousen's bankai, the vizards didn't. Also, Tousen gave Kenpachi time to adjust, when he could of attacked his head from the beginning.

As soon as they were under Tousen's bankai, the vizards were attacked.

- We don't know what their bankai does, but Love does. He was confident even though he tanked Starrk's wolves. There's no point in assuming, what their bankai does.

- There's a problem with your comparison between Shunsui and the vizards. Shunsui never had to deal with the wolves, the vizards did. It's unknown how Shunsui would of fared against the wolves?

freshseth83
May 25, 2010, 03:28 PM
Shunsui didn't need to fare against the wolves because he isn't like those two Vizards. He didn't just sit around and try to club Starrk and have it not work. There's a BIG difference in their powers. Two Shikai's did NO damage to Starrk at all. One shikai did, that was Shunsui's. Those hits that the Vizards got on Starrk did nothing to him. He had no scratches, no bruises, wasn't hurt. he was laying on the ground bored, that is until Lillynette talked some sense into him. When that happened there was nothing the Vizards could do. Shunsui played fair. He let them fight two on two. Rose/Love vs. Starrk/Lillynette. What happened? The outcome was about to be in favor of Starrk/Lillynette. They even THANKED Shunsui for saving them. Don't try to sit here and say they could have won when they sat there and thanked him. Get real buddy.

The vizards = fail. Shinji and Hacchi are the only ones that lasted. Even against (fake) Aizen those two were no match together. Shunsui hid in the shadows of the Ice and stabbed (fake) Aizen through the back. What did Rose and Love do? Swing AIMLESSLY at (fake) Aizen and got trashed. Much the same as what happened with Starrk.

Raizen
May 25, 2010, 04:35 PM
- Kenpachi knew he was under Tousen's bankai, the vizards didn't. Also, Tousen gave Kenpachi time to adjust, when he could of attacked his head from the beginning.

As soon as they were under Tousen's bankai, the vizards were attacked.

- We don't know what their bankai does, but Love does. He was confident even though he tanked Starrk's wolves. There's no point in assuming, what their bankai does.

- There's a problem with your comparison between Shunsui and the vizards. Shunsui never had to deal with the wolves, the vizards did. It's unknown how Shunsui would of fared against the wolves?
That would matter if tousen went for the heads of teh vizards, but all he did was slash them ONCE. If they were strong as u so suggests, then 1 slash won't be enough to keep them down.

Love wasn't confident. Where was it showed that he was confident? If anything he was at a loss for words considering starks mocked him and stated that if he ran away starks wwould look the other way. Love didn't have a rebuttal or anything. Another thing is after shunsui finished the fight, he lectured them and love could do nothing but listen b/c he was in teh wrong.

Considering shunsui's reiatsu is larger then rose and love, i'd say he would be fine even if the wolves hit. Or he can hide in the shadows, shuunpo away, etc. And i say his reiatsu is much larger since he was able to harm starks while both rose and love couldn't scratch him even w/ direct hits

kkck
May 25, 2010, 04:46 PM
WTH do you think the lecture was about? All love said was that he did not like shunsui getting into his fight and shunsui answered such a thing was not important in a war. How is that a simbol of strength? All that shows is a difference in mentality, not actual strength. It´s not like thinking in a particular way makes people magically stronger.

Raizen
May 25, 2010, 05:12 PM
Intellect is part of the fight. How can u even argue about that?
Also, the fact that love was at a loss for words was to show that he was indeed in trouble and shunsui's help was needed

En Yang Ji
May 25, 2010, 05:17 PM
Intellect is part of the fight. How can u even argue about that?
Also, the fact that love was at a loss for words was to show that he was indeed in trouble and shunsui's help was needed

Your misconstruing things. Love wasn't at a lost for words, he knew what he wanted to say. Love wasn't scared at all.

Raizen
May 25, 2010, 05:27 PM
Shunsui stated glad u are safe, meaning he realized they were in trouble.
Then he goes on to say they are like lower ranks. It is presented that shunsui is clearly much superior

freshseth83
May 25, 2010, 06:48 PM
Why can't people see the Vizards were no match for Starrk? What were they going to do? Go bankai? Like that would help. They looked like amateurs trying to beat Starrk, Regardless of how old they are, how long they had their mask abilities, they lost their mask as the fighting continued on.

Shunsui saved them, it was clear as day. Love said to Shunsui thank you, Shunsui said, I'm just glad you're ok. Love goes on to say you have no style, always butting in other's fights. Shunsui said only UNDERLINGS or LOWER RANKS can get caught up in a matter of style and LOSE THE BATTLE or THROW AWAY VICTORY, a CAPTAIN can't afford such luxuries.

Clearly he was scolding Rose and Love for being so trivial as to say it was their fight when clearly they were going to lose.

Hystzen
May 25, 2010, 07:03 PM
Why can't people see the Vizards were no match for Starrk? What were they going to do? Go bankai? Like that would help. They looked like amateurs trying to beat Starrk, Regardless of how old they are, how long they had their mask abilities, they lost their mask as the fighting continued on.

Shunsui saved them, it was clear as day. Love said to Shunsui thank you, Shunsui said, I'm just glad you're ok. Love goes on to say you have no style, always butting in other's fights. Shunsui said only UNDERLINGS or LOWER RANKS can get caught up in a matter of style and LOSE THE BATTLE or THROW AWAY VICTORY, a CAPTAIN can't afford such luxuries.

Clearly he was scolding Rose and Love for being so trivial as to say it was their fight when clearly they were going to lose.

your kidding right for all we know there bankai could be most dangerous we seen it could be even more hax then aizen n shinjis shikai. they could have a bankai like histu where kubo makes a new ablilty each fight so histu can win for all we know. so saying that is incorrect .

shunsui didnt win as perfect as people assume..shunsui could have been in trouble before the wolves or vizards appearance

http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/362/17/
http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/362/18/

if uki didnt save him shunsui be hit by that cero. if shunsui was gona be hit by a cero imagine the wolves he been in same shape as love ripped clothes and blood.

dont down play the vizards coz shunsui beat starrk via clever tatics with a shikai

Waking_Dreamer
May 25, 2010, 07:25 PM
lol...at how Kubo always seems to have most fighters die/lose without using all if not at least most of their power...There would be no issues such as these if he just did that.

Anyways at one point Shunsui was going to use his bankai - which personally I think would have made sense for Starrk's character since hes fighting only to see Shunsui's bankai...poor Starrk.

freshseth83
May 26, 2010, 12:43 AM
your kidding right for all we know there bankai could be most dangerous we seen it could be even more hax then aizen n shinjis shikai. they could have a bankai like histu where kubo makes a new ablilty each fight so histu can win for all we know. so saying that is incorrect .

shunsui didnt win as perfect as people assume..shunsui could have been in trouble before the wolves or vizards appearance

http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/362/17/
http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/362/18/

if uki didnt save him shunsui be hit by that cero. if shunsui was gona be hit by a cero imagine the wolves he been in same shape as love ripped clothes and blood.

dont down play the vizards coz shunsui beat starrk via clever tatics with a shikai

yeah it was a joke, if they can even go Bankai. It looked to me like they were all out of options, if they were to use Bankai they should have done it.

Shunsui was already hit by a cero and it didn't do jack. Look here at how many ceros Starrk shot at him and how he dodged them continuously http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/362/14-15/ http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/362/17/ Only when Starrk started firing cero's like a machine gun did Shunsui have trouble dodging them. but it was hard for him to dodge ceros? No, not really.

here's where Shunsui got hit by the cero and it didn't do anything to him http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/364/07/ Shunsui being hit. http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/365/09/ Shunsui doing just fine.

Hystzen
May 26, 2010, 05:34 AM
yeah it was a joke, if they can even go Bankai. It looked to me like they were all out of options, if they were to use Bankai they should have done it.

Shunsui was already hit by a cero and it didn't do jack. Look here at how many ceros Starrk shot at him and how he dodged them continuously http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/362/14-15/ http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/362/17/ Only when Starrk started firing cero's like a machine gun did Shunsui have trouble dodging them. but it was hard for him to dodge ceros? No, not really.

here's where Shunsui got hit by the cero and it didn't do anything to him http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/364/07/ Shunsui being hit. http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/365/09/ Shunsui doing just fine.

erm they are captains and we know zaraki is the only captain ever to be one without a bankai,

LOL so shunsui been hit by ceros is a good thing seriously come on even if he looks fine it will wear him down...look at the start of the fight before he got knocked down...shunsui never got a blow on starrrk and was no fast enough he even tried to attack when starrk was talking AND STILL MISSED.
shunsui was in trouble but people only look at the part of the fight when vizards turn up at the start shunsui WAS in trouble. the only time he hit starrk was when his shikai finally worked if it didnt starrk prob would have beaten shunsui quite easily.

Raizen
May 26, 2010, 12:23 PM
erm they are captains and we know zaraki is the only captain ever to be one without a bankai,

LOL so shunsui been hit by ceros is a good thing seriously come on even if he looks fine it will wear him down...look at the start of the fight before he got knocked down...shunsui never got a blow on starrrk and was no fast enough he even tried to attack when starrk was talking AND STILL MISSED.
shunsui was in trouble but people only look at the part of the fight when vizards turn up at the start shunsui WAS in trouble. the only time he hit starrk was when his shikai finally worked if it didnt starrk prob would have beaten shunsui quite easily.
So you agree that if shunsui's KG was in the mood from the start starks would have been dead way faster? Then in a way u agree. Shunsui w/ his shikai could accomplish what 2 captains with mask and vizards couldn't do. Furthermore, people fail to realize that rose and love couldn't injure starks while shunsui could. What does that mean? Shunsui's SP is much greater then theirs and his skills are also better.

As for the whole mood thing, i am inclined to believe it was only a way to get shunsui out of the way so the vizards can have someone to fight. I am sure it won't appear again in the manga.

En Yang Ji
May 26, 2010, 12:42 PM
You didn't answer my question.

- If Starrk was much stronger than them, could they tank multiple explosions from Starrk's wolves and come out with only a few bruises and slightly bloody lips?

Raizen
May 26, 2010, 01:11 PM
U don't understand what tanking means. Tanking is taking a hit or hits and show no signs of injury. Thus shunsui tanked the cero, yama tanked WW, etc. Rose and Love didn't tank anything. They were clearly injured. If they were fine as u claim they would have tried to counter

En Yang Ji
May 26, 2010, 01:19 PM
- Are you going to answer my question or not?


-The outcasts would without too much trouble, they have way too much power on their side. The vizards are seasoned captains, with hollow powers and Urahara's crew are amongst the strongest characters in the series.

Raizen
May 26, 2010, 01:23 PM
I did answer your question.

Oh yes, the vizards are great seasoned captains. i mean that is how they got defeated easily and 1 shotted by tousen, that is why they were utter fail in the war, that is why aizen mocked them. Yea they are really great. They'd win if their opponents were a bunch of menos :notrust.

Urahara and co have not been stated to be among teh strongest or even implied as so. That is all fan based. SS side on the otehr have shunsui, uki, unohana, and to some extent kenpachi and byakuya.

Hystzen
May 26, 2010, 01:27 PM
So you agree that if shunsui's KG was in the mood from the start starks would have been dead way faster? Then in a way u agree. Shunsui w/ his shikai could accomplish what 2 captains with mask and vizards couldn't do. Furthermore, people fail to realize that rose and love couldn't injure starks while shunsui could. What does that mean? Shunsui's SP is much greater then theirs and his skills are also better.

As for the whole mood thing, i am inclined to believe it was only a way to get shunsui out of the way so the vizards can have someone to fight. I am sure it won't appear again in the manga.

it still debate able coz starrk was figuring out shunsui attacks fast
http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/374/14/

and could he have landed attacks on starrk if starrk was focused on him ;).

shunsui has different weapon to love n rose.. love has a club which is not gona cause slices or stabs it would damaged internally.
his club also knocked away ceros
http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/372/06/

while shunsui was hit by ceros and was struggling to dodge them.

starrk also knew love was nearly strong as shunsui as he says THESE guys

http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/372/10/

face it shunsui got it easy in the fight love and rose deals with starrks strongest attack while shunsui did his clever sneak tactic.

there is not much differance in stregth and skill with vizards and shinigami

En Yang Ji
May 26, 2010, 01:28 PM
No you didn't. State whether or not you think Starrk is much stronger than Love and Rose, despite the fact that they only came out with a few bruises and slightly bloody lips, from his wolves.

Yes or no?

Raizen
May 26, 2010, 01:45 PM
it still debate able coz starrk was figuring out shunsui attacks fast
http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/374/14/

and could he have landed attacks on starrk if starrk was focused on him ;).

shunsui has different weapon to love n rose.. love has a club which is not gona cause slices or stabs it would damaged internally.
his club also knocked away ceros
http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/372/06/

while shunsui was hit by ceros and was struggling to dodge them.

starrk also knew love was nearly strong as shunsui as he says THESE guys

http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/372/10/

face it shunsui got it easy in the fight love and rose deals with starrks strongest attack while shunsui did his clever sneak tactic.

there is not much differance in stregth and skill with vizards and shinigami
Starks figuring out shunsui's game is a testament of starks strenght, not that shunsui is weak.

What changed between the shunsui at teh beginning of the fight and the end of the fight? The difference is that KG was ready to play for real. You already admitted that w/ KG shunsui would win

So by your statement it is easier to harm someone with a knife then with a baseball bat? I find that ridiculous. Starks was hit love with shikai and mask and there was not a single scratch. Big difference in power

Shunsui was dodging most of them. Whether he was struggling, it seemed he was still king of kidding. As for love, him knocking away the cero says nothign about his strength but rather the nature of his shikai. it was big and acted as a shield
[hr]

No you didn't. State whether or not you think Starrk is much stronger than Love and Rose, despite the fact that they only came out with a few bruises and slightly bloody lips, from his wolves.

Yes or no?
Yes, i think starks is much stronger than rose and love with mask and shikai

En Yang Ji
May 26, 2010, 01:57 PM
- It's amazing that you think that Starrk has much more reiastu than Love and Starrk despite the fact there was almost no signs of serious injury, from his wolves. Not to mention they were hit by the wolves multiple times.

- I already addressed why Tousen was able to down the vizards in one of my prior post. Shunsui and Ukitake would of likely been beaten in the same way, if they were in that situation.

- Urahara could take on Shunsui if needed.

Raizen
May 26, 2010, 02:47 PM
1. Being injured is better then not injured is it not? Starks was uninjured while both rose and love were huffing and puffing. It was clear that they were on teh lsoing end
http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/373/17/

2. U keep on believing that. Tousen whoe was much younger then the tousen now took of numerous captains and VC easily!! While current tousen had trouble with non-eyepatch kenpachi. The vizards are complete weaklings as captains

3. i never said he couldn't. but shunsui would win ultimatelly imo

poobert
May 26, 2010, 03:15 PM
I am going to bring this up again, because imo, it is an absolutely silly point to misunderstand.

http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/365/09/
This is what one cero did to Shunsui.

http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/373/14/
This is what one wolf did to love.

The manga evidence is clear. Love has a vastly better constitution than Shunsui, thanks to his mask. He is way better off from a way stronger attack.

You are talking about Love huffing and puffing...
http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/373/15/

Top left. Not only did he take one wolf on his mask, but he took 2 more, point blank, and he didn't go falling to the ground like Shunsui after a single cero. In fact, he was standing, cocky as hell and still ready to fight:
http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/373/18/

You simply can't deny that the mask gives them more power and better hit taking capacity.

And to touch on Tousen. It was a sneak attack. Just look at Hisagi if you don't know how one of those works. I don't see anyone talking about how arrancar tousen is VC level, or how Hisagi must be better than Koma because he killed Tousen in one move. Tousen got a sneak attack on the vizard, and then they were incapacitated by Aizen's experiment. Simple as that.

freshseth83
May 26, 2010, 05:36 PM
First of all, the ground is dusty and dirty, not a cero- so your point about chapter 365 is moot. Shunsui wasn't hurt at all, that's why Lisa went up to him and said, quit playing dead! THIS (http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/374/03/) is what Starks POINT BLANK TO THE BACK cero did to Shunsui.

Lets go to what Rose and Love did to Starrk, TOGETHER-

Here (http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/373/11/) is an example of their (non)teamwork. Arguing over what kind of ability Love's sonata is. Art or magic what does it matter? Here (http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/373/13/) is an example of just how 'smart' Rose and love are. The funny thing is, Shunsui was able to deduct that Starrk's guns could fire more than ceros, even though Starrk lied and said they couldn't. But Rose and Love aren't smart enough to figure out that after trying to club and whip the wolves to no avail, they still get caught by them. Here (http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/373/16/) is where Starrk states they aren't ceros, that ceros can't inflict FATAL imjuries on TOUGH opponents such as Rose and Love. And here (http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/373/17/) is what happened after they foolishly got hit with the wolves. Notice the damage done to them after only 3 or 4 wolves, then notice the damage done to Starrk- none. And here (http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/373/18/) is one more page that shows clearly the damage done by a few wolves to Love and then the damage done by Rose to Starrk.

Now onto what Shunsui, BY HIMSELF does to Starrk-

Notice how Rose and love realize who it is and are shocked (http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/374/02/) at what's happening. Then again (http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/374/03/) the damage done to Shunsui by that cero DIRECTLY TO THE BACK from Starrk. Notice how it's seemingly non-existant? Looks like Shunsui is just as durable as Rose and Love. Here (http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/374/08/) is what one strike from Shunsui did to Starrk. And then here (http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/374/13/) is when Starrk calls out white, notice the damage done to Shunsui, even though white was the strongest move he could have done. And here (http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/374/15/) is where Starrks asks himself, why do I have to fight with such a STRONG guy? And finally the last strike (http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/374/19/) that ended Starrk's life.

So in 3 hits and from two games, Shunsui beats Starrk. But Rose and Love together couldn't beat him, and did NO damage to him, and were about to be dealt a death blow.

AS we can see, Shunsui is greater than two Vizard captains, together. That's only ONE captain. Multiply that by Ukitake and Unohana and Byakuya and Kenpachi and Hitsugaya and Soi-Fon and even Kommamura. Plus all their Vice Captains, 3rd seats etc. I think it's safe to assume SS is the favored party in this fight.

Hystzen
May 26, 2010, 05:58 PM
Starks figuring out shunsui's game is a testament of starks strenght, not that shunsui is weak.

What changed between the shunsui at teh beginning of the fight and the end of the fight? The difference is that KG was ready to play for real. You already admitted that w/ KG shunsui would win

So by your statement it is easier to harm someone with a knife then with a baseball bat? I find that ridiculous. Starks was hit love with shikai and mask and there was not a single scratch. Big difference in power

Shunsui was dodging most of them. Whether he was struggling, it seemed he was still king of kidding. As for love, him knocking away the cero says nothign about his strength but rather the nature of his shikai. it was big and acted as a shield


i didnt admit he would win i quote i said : "the only time he hit starrk was when his shikai finally worked if it didnt starrk prob would have beaten shunsui quite easily." . i was pointing out the fact shunsui didnt get a blow on starrk until his sneak attack other than that he was dodging ceros and starrk dodged his few attacks.

the idea of a club is to pulvize (bad spelling i know :p) i think it was more a mistake from kubo we seen weak people and strong people been knocked thru buildings with damage but starrk takes to swings knocked thru the floor but nothing it doesnt make sense really :s. eg is shunsui when he talking to lisa look at the state of him after been knocked down by a cero
http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/365/09/



it not coz love was weak as starrk himself admitted they were strong and knew he had no choice but to do the wolves attack on them to win.


BTW im on no side just the vizards seem to have less people arguing for them so im on there side at moment :p. plus i kept getting bugged out that every thread to do with strength people are hyping Shunsui up (not saying you are) all he did was win a fight with a sneak attack followed up by shikai ablilty it was not a full brutal fight showing what shunsui could do but that is kubo for ya :tem

En Yang Ji
May 26, 2010, 06:11 PM
@Hyst-gundam:

Who do you think has the advantage in this fight? To me, it looks like the outcast have a pretty big advantage. IMO the vizards are nowhere near as weak as Freshseth83 is making them out to be. If they were they wouldn't even be able to last a couple seconds against Starrk.

The vizards, IMO, are least the same level as the Gotei 13. They have hollow powers that increase their overall strength, lot's of reiastu and decent shikai's. They also have more experience than most of the Gotei 13.

With Urahara's crew, who are amongst the strongest shinigami, added to the outcast it seems they have a large advantage.

freshseth83
May 26, 2010, 06:13 PM
Like i said in the post above, the 'damage' you see to Shunsui wasn't even damage. He got up after LISA SMASHED HIS FACE IN THE GROUND! The damage to Shunsui was nothing. Lisa came in and stomped Shunsui's head, smashing his face in the ground. That's why we see the dirt and scratches on him. He didn't get hit in the face with a cero, he got hit in the back. Shunsui was being lazy just like Starrk was. Lisa was the same for Shunsui as Lillynette was for Starrk.

I'm not making out the Vizards to be totally useless in every situation, but in this war, they were foolish. You can tell they were 'youngsters' comparatively speaking to Shunsui. His experience and knowledge is what helped him stay around longer than those two did. And only Shunsui said anything to Hitsugaya, whether or not the other's noticed Hitsugaya rushing towards Aizen doesn't matter. Shunsui was the only one trying to stop him. Because his battle prowess and knowledge is what matters most. Anyone can go bashing people around, but if you can't do damage or get a critical hit in, what's the use in running around being flashy? This is why Shunsui said Bankai is A LAST RESORT. You don't play all your cards when you know they aren't needed to win, you wait until the right moment then STRIKE when the time is opportune.

Hystzen
May 26, 2010, 06:25 PM
the vizards were not foolish they were screwed by kubo to

1. reveal shunsuis abiltys and what he can do
2. move the plot forward.
3. bail out the captains as they were losing

kubo screwed them simple as...... love n rose were not stupid they knew what they were doing BUT UNLIKE shunsui they SWATTED away the ceros and had to deal with starrks ULTIMATE ATTACK WOLVES ...they ended up been shields well shunsui took advantage.


but didnt stop him from been owned by aizen tho ...LOL SO ACCORDING to you shunsui saying histu stop makes him clever LOL kubo just knew having 2 pages of captains and vizards screaming stop hitsugaya is a waste...

El Samurai Guapo
May 26, 2010, 07:07 PM
Them taking that long to become captain shows that they are not that great.

:facepalm Put a link up to where is says how long they took become captains.


Furthermore, the skills they show as captain was not anything even close to impressive. They were low ranked captains. Byakuya went from a kid to captain in 50 years, same with gin, not to mention hitsu was extremely young. Those guys have what is said to be great potential and limits.

Lol, and how do you think Byakuya or Toushirou would have performed against Starrk in shikai? Toushirou's shikai didn't do shit to SEALED YAMMI. Byakuya's shikai easily gets swatted away by shikai Ichigo, and shikai Ichigo < Dordonii. As for Gin, yeah, he's a beast and is probably the 3rd or 4th strongest in BLEACH.


Where did u get 1 in a thousand? Stop making numbers up.

I actually said 1 in a hundred thousand...

...the numbers come from the fact that 99.9% of shinigami never even come close to reaching captain level. All captains are the cream of the SS crop, everyone knows this.


Yes, gaining captainship is good, but not great. Just being captain does not mean u are strong or high on the list of powerful fighters. Ken killed the previous 11th division captain with ease, love rose and the rest of the vizards were fail. They got owned by one hit by tousen. Freaking tousen!! They have no feats that makes them any stronger.

Firstly, who says then Kenpachi beat the former 11th squad captains easily? Secondly why do you say "freaking tousen" as if he was some random fodder shinigami. Kaname was already bankai capable back then, so he wasn't some pushover. More imporantly though, it was a sneak attack by someone they trusted, it's not like the lost a fair fight against Kaname.


And just having a mask does not automatically make them as strong as someone higher than them. A million times 0 is still 0 ;)


So the vaizards are a 0? Now look who's the one making up numbers.

freshseth83
May 26, 2010, 07:36 PM
the vizards were not foolish they were screwed by kubo to

1. reveal shunsuis abiltys and what he can do
2. move the plot forward.
3. bail out the captains as they were losing

kubo screwed them simple as...... love n rose were not stupid they knew what they were doing BUT UNLIKE shunsui they SWATTED away the ceros and had to deal with starrks ULTIMATE ATTACK WOLVES ...they ended up been shields well shunsui took advantage.


but didnt stop him from been owned by aizen tho ...LOL SO ACCORDING to you shunsui saying histu stop makes him clever LOL kubo just knew having 2 pages of captains and vizards screaming stop hitsugaya is a waste...

I can say the same thing to you buddy! Hey, lets play tag! Not.

1. The plot moves forwards regardless of the characters.
2. Shunsui already revealed his abilities but he wasn't in the mood to fight thanks to Starrk's unwillingness to be serious, Shunsui reflected that.
3. They didn't bail out any captain at all, only Hacchi helped in a significant way with Barragan. Hitsugaya has Hallibel beat, Shunsui wasn't even hurt from Starrk.

The vizards were introduced to me as a comic relief. Things were getting serious and captains were in tight spots, most the vizards are lame written characters that involve humour. They don't seem to be seriously capable fighters. Shinji and Kensei were probably the only one's that have great abilities. Goofy whips that have little use unless you wrap them around you opponent, and big clubs that can bat ceros? Wow, those are special huh? I guess people like characters that provide comedic relief in a tense moment. Thing is, the characters that we laugh at, are the one's that are weaker and usually get hurt. The exception is Kommamura.

Hystzen
May 26, 2010, 08:16 PM
I can say the same thing to you buddy! Hey, lets play tag! Not.

1. The plot moves forwards regardless of the characters.
2. Shunsui already revealed his abilities but he wasn't in the mood to fight thanks to Starrk's unwillingness to be serious, Shunsui reflected that.
3. They didn't bail out any captain at all, only Hacchi helped in a significant way with Barragan. Hitsugaya has Hallibel beat, Shunsui wasn't even hurt from Starrk.

The vizards were introduced to me as a comic relief. Things were getting serious and captains were in tight spots, most the vizards are lame written characters that involve humour. They don't seem to be seriously capable fighters. Shinji and Kensei were probably the only one's that have great abilities. Goofy whips that have little use unless you wrap them around you opponent, and big clubs that can bat ceros? Wow, those are special huh? I guess people like characters that provide comedic relief in a tense moment. Thing is, the characters that we laugh at, are the one's that are weaker and usually get hurt. The exception is Kommamura.

last time gona bother replying to you as no matter what people say you always shunsui shunsui shunsui.

1. the gotei 13 were bailed out.....WW appeared he took out ukitake a senior captain...starrk knocked shunsui out...harriebl was freed from ice prison by WW....soi fon buggered by barragan...oh yea gin,aizen,tousen were freed from fire prison...and to top it off an army of menos appearing to kill the vcs.....yup they had it under control all right. ;)

joke characters seriously hahahahaha do you even know which characters are jokes.
they not capable fighters ok so they were VCs n captains for no reason then in TBTP yamma just felt like making a whole bunch of people with no skill leaders :eyeroll.
lisa was praised by your beloved shunsui in TBTP..she even did well against harribel and even used skill.
hiyori....oki she is trash.
hachi is a kido master and beat a espada so he joke to then
kensei well he got screwed didnt he...same with mashiro
love n rose are good teamwork and have joke moments but so does shunsui and ukitake

shunsuis shikai is kinda a jokey gimmick makes kids games real

and that big club that can beat ceros beat ceros take shunsui coundt dodge :tem

so come on reply with your shunsui loveeeeeeee
[hr]

@Hyst-gundam:

Who do you think has the advantage in this fight? To me, it looks like the outcast have a pretty big advantage. IMO the vizards are nowhere near as weak as Freshseth83 is making them out to be. If they were they wouldn't even be able to last a couple seconds against Starrk.

The vizards, IMO, are least the same level as the Gotei 13. They have hollow powers that increase their overall strength, lot's of reiastu and decent shikai's. They also have more experience than most of the Gotei 13.

With Urahara's crew, who are amongst the strongest shinigami, added to the outcast it seems they have a large advantage.


the idea of urahara was to balance things out but with the latest chapters it looks like they might have become a wrecking crew after seening there teamwork in play.

the vizards are on par with gotei 13 as they were members of gotei 13 themselves so i dont see that them been experimented with hollowfication would weaken them and if people believe that age = experiance then they are better some of the current captains. and add the fact there VCs are quite strong (minus hiryori) vizards are very underestimated it seems.

as raizen and i discussed on earlier pages it is a mixed fight not 1 vs 1 s they gona be switching oppenants in the fight to cover there weaknesses.

ie. komas brute strength will be helped by soi fon s speed to cover komas gaps in defence.

freshseth83
May 26, 2010, 09:20 PM
I would love to read through your story book long post, but I'm not going to waste my time.

You obviously don't understand what comedic characters are in stories. Omeada is a comedic character, he always gets hurt in silly ways and cracks jokes and appears unintelligent. The two I was referring to were Rose and Love. They act like they have skills, but they are comedic characters who crack jokes, then ended up getting whipped by Starrk. Hiyori is the same way, they'll get their little moment to shine, then it's back to their cracking of jokes and getting beat on by the serious characters. That's the way the story is written. I didn't make it up. If you really think the Vizards are super skilled then they would have won against Tousen before they were hollowfied. They couldn't even keep up with Starrk or Hallibel. 2 on 1 for Starrk, and 3 on 1 for Hallibel with some slight help from an exhausted Hitsugaya.

You're like a big kid with the things you post, Shunsui love? The only Love here is that weak Vizard you seem to think is soo good. I guess him and Rose are the strongest characters because they took on #1 espada right? If this is your logic, there's no reason for me to even reply to your posts any longer. I used more than Shunsui as an example. I used Hitsugaya who took out Hallibel by himself until WW came. And if you think that some menos are going to kill the captains and vice captains i guess they are all that's needed to defeat soul society huh? You make points but they don't make SENSE.

DEATHBOTT
May 27, 2010, 12:58 AM
I would love to read through your story book long post, but I'm not going to waste my time.

You obviously don't understand what comedic characters are in stories. Omeada is a comedic character, he always gets hurt in silly ways and cracks jokes and appears unintelligent. The two I was referring to were Rose and Love. They act like they have skills, but they are comedic characters who crack jokes, then ended up getting whipped by Starrk. Hiyori is the same way, they'll get their little moment to shine, then it's back to their cracking of jokes and getting beat on by the serious characters. That's the way the story is written. I didn't make it up. If you really think the Vizards are super skilled then they would have won against Tousen before they were hollowfied. They couldn't even keep up with Starrk or Hallibel. 2 on 1 for Starrk, and 3 on 1 for Hallibel with some slight help from an exhausted Hitsugaya.

You're like a big kid with the things you post, Shunsui love? The only Love here is that weak Vizard you seem to think is soo good. I guess him and Rose are the strongest characters because they took on #1 espada right? If this is your logic, there's no reason for me to even reply to your posts any longer. I used more than Shunsui as an example. I used Hitsugaya who took out Hallibel by himself until WW came. And if you think that some menos are going to kill the captains and vice captains i guess they are all that's needed to defeat soul society huh? You make points but they don't make SENSE.
love and rose are far from comedic characters shunsui is more comedic than them. and comedy doesnt make you weak see uhara and shinji most of there appearances have had them craking jokes. you keep saying they were beaten but they werent they still had bankai!!!!

freshseth83
May 27, 2010, 01:32 AM
They didn't bother to use it though did they? Why not? We know Shunsui didn't use his Bankai because like he said, it was a 'last resort'. And Ukitake said it wasn't something to be used with that many people around. Also he said no matter how strong he got by releasing and shooting ceros he wouldn't go Bankai. I think he was trying to buy time for his Katen Kyokotsu to 'warm up'. Perhaps Love and Rose's Bankai are some that might be conditional, or situational. Something I think Shunsui's Bankai might be. If they were to use it, perhaps it might have caused more harm than good for eachother. Maybe Rose's whip affected everyone around in a sonata? Why have Love in that? That would do more harm. We don't know if they didn't use it because they figured it wouldn't work, or they just can't use it because of how much reiatsu or strength they've used up because of mask, etc. It could be anything. If you say that they have Bankai left but didn't use it. I can say, Shunsui has two games left, and didn't use it (at least to effectiveness since he and Katen Kyokotsu weren't in the mood), PLUS a Bankai.

Comedic is a general term. What I mean by comedic is that their characters are hardly ever serious. They are portrayed as characters that seem to lack that extra 'oompf' to push them to the edge of winning against someone like Starrk. I realize that every character has some funny bits written in for them, but there's a time where you see the difference in a character like Shunsui, who is usually relaxed when making jokes, or statements about females; then seeing characters like Rose and Love, who crack jokes about eachother in a time of war. I really think they were outclassed in that battle. Starrk was much faster and much more equipped for beating them than what was brought out in the manga. Which is why it's good to see it animated. Pictures are great, but moving pictures or anime is even better at displaying things like explosions, or feats of speed. The illustrations are done well, but black and white still pictures don't do justice to half of the manga. That's what makes the anime so popular. Even if there is additives in it. It's still the same story that the manga is.

El Samurai Guapo
May 27, 2010, 03:26 AM
They didn't bother to use it though did they? Why not? We know Shunsui didn't use his Bankai because like he said, it was a 'last resort'.

Duh, just like bankai is last resort for Shunsui it's the same for everyone else. Well, in the case of vaizards there last resort would be bankai with hollow mask. Love & Rose weren't going to use their bankai unless they deemed necessary. I doubt they felt very threatened by Starrk prior to the wolves being released. They only realized how deadly that attack was shortly before they got blown up.

Assuming neither of them had any shikai abilities left to show (which is obviously not true considering Rose has at least 10 more sonatas), I'm sure at least one of them would have used his bankai.

DEATHBOTT
May 27, 2010, 04:34 AM
They didn't bother to use it though did they? Why not? We know Shunsui didn't use his Bankai because like he said, it was a 'last resort'. And Ukitake said it wasn't something to be used with that many people around. Also he said no matter how strong he got by releasing and shooting ceros he wouldn't go Bankai. I think he was trying to buy time for his Katen Kyokotsu to 'warm up'. Perhaps Love and Rose's Bankai are some that might be conditional, or situational. Something I think Shunsui's Bankai might be. If they were to use it, perhaps it might have caused more harm than good for eachother. Maybe Rose's whip affected everyone around in a sonata? Why have Love in that? That would do more harm. We don't know if they didn't use it because they figured it wouldn't work, or they just can't use it because of how much reiatsu or strength they've used up because of mask, etc. It could be anything. If you say that they have Bankai left but didn't use it. I can say, Shunsui has two games left, and didn't use it (at least to effectiveness since he and Katen Kyokotsu weren't in the mood), PLUS a Bankai.

Comedic is a general term. What I mean by comedic is that their characters are hardly ever serious. They are portrayed as characters that seem to lack that extra 'oompf' to push them to the edge of winning against someone like Starrk. I realize that every character has some funny bits written in for them, but there's a time where you see the difference in a character like Shunsui, who is usually relaxed when making jokes, or statements about females; then seeing characters like Rose and Love, who crack jokes about eachother in a time of war. I really think they were outclassed in that battle. Starrk was much faster and much more equipped for beating them than what was brought out in the manga. Which is why it's good to see it animated. Pictures are great, but moving pictures or anime is even better at displaying things like explosions, or feats of speed. The illustrations are done well, but black and white still pictures don't do justice to half of the manga. That's what makes the anime so popular. Even if there is additives in it. It's still the same story that the manga is.

they didnt really have a chance to use bankai. as soon as it was necessary shunsui stepped in. as for the comedy it doesnt make them weak, uhara is still cracking jokes against aizan in a time of war. they only made a couple of jokes anyway when they werent fighting starrk hardly comparable to oemaeda whos jokes rely on the fact that he is weak and a coward.

Hystzen
May 27, 2010, 06:08 AM
ok the new chapter is out and showed us some new skills that urahara can use in this fight ..benehime is slowly becoming my favorite zan it perfect for trapping and destroying. so im bored of all this shunsui love rose and starrk rubbish lets move on coz it going in circles.

urahara the key to outcasts victory or still no chance.

( oh yea memba aizen has admitted that urahara was BEYOND HIS interillet)

Raizen
May 27, 2010, 01:13 PM
I am going to bring this up again, because imo, it is an absolutely silly point to misunderstand.

http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/365/09/
This is what one cero did to Shunsui.

http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/373/14/
This is what one wolf did to love.

The manga evidence is clear. Love has a vastly better constitution than Shunsui, thanks to his mask. He is way better off from a way stronger attack.

You are talking about Love huffing and puffing...
http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/373/15/

Top left. Not only did he take one wolf on his mask, but he took 2 more, point blank, and he didn't go falling to the ground like Shunsui after a single cero. In fact, he was standing, cocky as hell and still ready to fight:
http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/373/18/

You simply can't deny that the mask gives them more power and better hit taking capacity.

And to touch on Tousen. It was a sneak attack. Just look at Hisagi if you don't know how one of those works. I don't see anyone talking about how arrancar tousen is VC level, or how Hisagi must be better than Koma because he killed Tousen in one move. Tousen got a sneak attack on the vizard, and then they were incapacitated by Aizen's experiment. Simple as that.
Do u remember what happened with hitsu vs luppi? How hitsu led luppi into thinking he went down? Similar to what shunsui did. He was playing along. It was stated by lisa that he was kidding around, not that the cero actual brought him down. Furthermore, do u think that falling from teh sky into rocks and rubles would not leave some dirt marks? It was not like he was bleeding or injured. Shunsui looked fine here
http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/374/07/

One wolf broke love's mask. And we know that the mask provides some resistance. So love did not take the brunt of the attack

Where did u get cocky as hell? he was sweating and pretty pissed off.

Hisagi hit tousen in the head. I'd be surprise if he wasn't down. but the vizards were slashed in the back by one attack!!! Shunsui was hit by starks the same way and still went on, zaraki was slashed multiple times by noitora, byakuya took 3 black GT from hollow ichigo, etc and they still went on fighting. The current captains are clearly superior to the past captains

Random101
May 27, 2010, 01:16 PM
Recall the difference between what one Black Cero did to Ichigo in two different instances. The Mask somehow serves some kind of defensive parameters, once an attack destroys it you're boned otherwise. This was pretty much directly referred to back when Ichigo met Ulquiorra for the first time in HM, in which he used it for an instant to block a cero and he couldn't call it out again.

poobert
May 27, 2010, 03:23 PM
Do u remember what happened with hitsu vs luppi? How hitsu led luppi into thinking he went down? Similar to what shunsui did. He was playing along. It was stated by lisa that he was kidding around, not that the cero actual brought him down. Furthermore, do u think that falling from teh sky into rocks and rubles would not leave some dirt marks? It was not like he was bleeding or injured. Shunsui looked fine here

Yeh possibly. I tend to get the feeling from bleach that characters recover fast and that kubo is kind of lazy with the details. Just don't forget that the cero is a vastly weaker attack than the wolves. His clothes were also frayed, and whatever fresh says, I don't believe that all that damage could have happened ala Lisa.

At least you agree that the mask increases the vizards constitution.

Don't get me wrong, I don't think Love and Rose are near Shunsui/Uki level, but I think that their mask does bestow benefits like the ability to take more damage than either SHunsui or Uki could ever do, and it gives them more raw power than either of them can muster up. Tengumaru's attack was phenomenal (there is a difference between that kind of raw power and the amplifying ability of the colour game, before anyone asks).

Again, most of my comments are really addressed to people who think the vizard are useless and the masks do nothing. The masks clearly do a hell of a lot and the vizard captains are easily mid level without their masks. If they can go close range melee with stark, and Hitsu can't even do that with numero 3, it says a lot.

------

Love took two wolves without the mask and was still standing. Before, he got slashed by tousen and fell. Clearly something was up. Either the sneak attack makes it more potent, or he was crippled by Aizen's experiment. Either way, the fact that he took two wolves without the mask indicates that the Tousen incident was extraneous. You also can't ignore the plot element and the fact that every single power detail isn't mapped out by Kubo, so over analysis can often be worse than skimming the action.

En Yang Ji
May 27, 2010, 03:44 PM
- Kensei, Shinji and Hiyori did get back up. Rose was sent to the ground by Kensei not Tousen. The only vizard captain that was subdued by Tousen is Love.

- No matter what we say, it doesn't look like Raizen and Freseth83 will ever believe the vizards are anything, but garbage. Let's move on.

The Outcast have Tessai which can stop time and teleport, Urahara who's on Aizen's level, Yoruichi who is the fastest shinigami and Shinji, who has the 3rd most haxx shikai. Even if the other vizards were nothing, but mid tier captains, they could hold of the others long enough for these 4 to dominate the opposition.

- The vizards VCs are most likely captain level, considering their feats and the fact they are older than the majority of the current Gotei 13 captains. With their numbers, the Outcast have even more of a advantage.

DEATHBOTT
May 27, 2010, 03:51 PM
- Kensei, Shinji and Hiyori did get back up. Rose was sent to the ground by Kensei not Tousen. The only vizard captain that was subdued by Tousen is Love.

- No matter what we say, it doesn't look like Raizen and Freseth83 will ever believe the vizards are anything, but garbage. Let's move on.

The Outcast have Tessai which can stop time and teleport, Urahara who's on Aizen's level, Yoruichi who is the fastest shinigami and Shinji, who has the 3rd most haxx shikai. Even if the other vizards were nothing, but mid tier captains, they could hold of the others long enough for these 4 to dominate the opposition.

- The vizards VCs are most likely captain level, considering their feats and the fact they are older than the majority of the current Gotei 13 captains. With their numbers, the Outcast have even more of a advantage.
i agree with you about everything apart from the vcs being captain level. captains are like one in a hundred even f you have along time you still may not achieve bankai.

En Yang Ji
May 27, 2010, 03:58 PM
i agree with you about everything apart from the vcs being captain level. captains are like one in a hundred even f you have along time you still may not achieve bankai.

I didn't think they were captain level either at first, but as far as skill and reiastu is concerned they seem to be captain level.


- Mashiro was able to fight WW for a while

- Lisa being able to fight Harribel's released form, even for a little while, shows her skill and reiastu level.

- Hiyori had the upper hand agains Ichigo. She was able to crack and nearly break Ichigo's shikai. She also was able to fight Harribel's released form

- Hacchi has kido non-vizard shinigami can't break and was able to subdue a hollowified Kensei with his kido a 100 years ago (without his mask).

Waking_Dreamer
May 27, 2010, 04:15 PM
i agree with you about everything apart from the vcs being captain level. captains are like one in a hundred even f you have along time you still may not achieve bankai.

I remember a time when people would think you ridiculous to mention the idea that the VC Vizard wouldnt have reached bankai by the time they arrived in FKT.

People would say they would all at least be Senior Captain level and just below Yama-ji too...oh fandom...lol

Raizen
May 27, 2010, 05:22 PM
i didnt admit he would win i quote i said : "the only time he hit starrk was when his shikai finally worked if it didnt starrk prob would have beaten shunsui quite easily." . i was pointing out the fact shunsui didnt get a blow on starrk until his sneak attack other than that he was dodging ceros and starrk dodged his few attacks.

the idea of a club is to pulvize (bad spelling i know :p) i think it was more a mistake from kubo we seen weak people and strong people been knocked thru buildings with damage but starrk takes to swings knocked thru the floor but nothing it doesnt make sense really :s. eg is shunsui when he talking to lisa look at the state of him after been knocked down by a cero
http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/365/09/

it not coz love was weak as starrk himself admitted they were strong and knew he had no choice but to do the wolves attack on them to win.

BTW im on no side just the vizards seem to have less people arguing for them so im on there side at moment :p. plus i kept getting bugged out that every thread to do with strength people are hyping Shunsui up (not saying you are) all he did was win a fight with a sneak attack followed up by shikai ablilty it was not a full brutal fight showing what shunsui could do but that is kubo for ya :tem
It seems i read your post wrong lol

Anyways, as aizen and kenpachi have stated, in a battle it is the battle of reiatsu. Your strength depends on your reiatsu, your strength, attacks, etc. Fact is love w/ mask and shikai couldn't scratch starks while shunsui was not only able to injure starks but kill him. HUGE difference in reiatsu don't u think?

Starkks used the wolves b/c lillinete urged him to be serious. Not that he was forced into a corner. 2 completely different ideas.

If shunsui had finished off starks w/ that sneak attack like hisagi, i wouldn't be defending him. However, he won against starks in a straight fight 1-on-1 after they both took a cheap shot at each other. That is a testament of his strenght. i find it ridiculous that people call him cheap
[hr]

:facepalm Put a link up to where is says how long they took become captains.
Rose became captain a year before the pendulum arc. Look at his age. He is pretty old don't u say? Byakuya was a child in the arc and later became a powerful captain in 50 years, hence difference in potential. Same w/ soifon, gin, hitsu, etc.


Lol, and how do you think Byakuya or Toushirou would have performed against Starrk in shikai? Toushirou's shikai didn't do shit to SEALED YAMMI. Byakuya's shikai easily gets swatted away by shikai Ichigo, and shikai Ichigo < Dordonii. As for Gin, yeah, he's a beast and is probably the 3rd or 4th strongest in BLEACH.
Byakuya's shikai was counter by ichigo by surprise. Furthermore
In the recent chapter, it is stated that ichigo is much much weaker then he was in SS. So that comparison is wrong
Byakuya also has other skills like kido and shuunpo, etc. But at least his attacks will actually injure starks. Remember how he killed released 7th espada w/ a sealed sword?


I actually said 1 in a hundred thousand...

...the numbers come from the fact that 99.9% of shinigami never even come close to reaching captain level. All captains are the cream of the SS crop, everyone knows this.
So u made it up :notrust


Firstly, who says then Kenpachi beat the former 11th squad captains easily? Secondly why do you say "freaking tousen" as if he was some random fodder shinigami. Kaname was already bankai capable back then, so he wasn't some pushover. More imporantly though, it was a sneak attack by someone they trusted, it's not like the lost a fair fight against Kaname.
So having a bankai means they are not fodder? Lets take a look at renji and ikkaku.
And there is no trust issue. He wasn't even around. They didn't even sense him. He came in and took them down as if they were flies


So the vaizards are a 0? Now look who's the one making up numbers.
That was a simile. If u don't get it...wow
[hr]

Yeh possibly. I tend to get the feeling from bleach that characters recover fast and that kubo is kind of lazy with the details. Just don't forget that the cero is a vastly weaker attack than the wolves. His clothes were also frayed, and whatever fresh says, I don't believe that all that damage could have happened ala Lisa.

At least you agree that the mask increases the vizards constitution.

Don't get me wrong, I don't think Love and Rose are near Shunsui/Uki level, but I think that their mask does bestow benefits like the ability to take more damage than either SHunsui or Uki could ever do, and it gives them more raw power than either of them can muster up. Tengumaru's attack was phenomenal (there is a difference between that kind of raw power and the amplifying ability of the colour game, before anyone asks).

Again, most of my comments are really addressed to people who think the vizard are useless and the masks do nothing. The masks clearly do a hell of a lot and the vizard captains are easily mid level without their masks. If they can go close range melee with stark, and Hitsu can't even do that with numero 3, it says a lot.

------

Love took two wolves without the mask and was still standing. Before, he got slashed by tousen and fell. Clearly something was up. Either the sneak attack makes it more potent, or he was crippled by Aizen's experiment. Either way, the fact that he took two wolves without the mask indicates that the Tousen incident was extraneous. You also can't ignore the plot element and the fact that every single power detail isn't mapped out by Kubo, so over analysis can often be worse than skimming the action.
Too many damn posts to reply to!! GAHHH!!
Shunsui was not injured. That was apparent. Hence having lisa telling him to stop pretending, shunsui fighting full power later, etc

Yes, the mask does give a boost in defense just like ichigo's. But just by having the mask does not mean they have a better defense then uki and shunsui. Again, it has to do witht he difference in SP. And shunsui and uki obviously have more SP considering they can actually injure starks. Furthermore, in teh color game, a small slash to starks arm after calling a non present color green made starks feel like his arm got ripped off. So a slash to shunsui's back w/ starks most powerful color call not only didn't bring shunsui down but he shook it off pretty easily. Would u say the attack by starks with teh color game more lethal then the wolves? i would say so, yet shunsui endured it
As for pure power? What about koma? Does that mean he is stronger then shunsui and uki? I hope u don't think that.

How can u compare love and hitsu and say that hitsu can't do what love can do? They fight differently. Love is a brute while hitsu uses strategy and long ranged attacks. Just b/c u don't like him, u shouldn't bash him. The vizards to me w/o the mask are as weak as koma. With mask they may be a bit stronger. But i'd say byakuya and ken can take any of them mask or not

Attack damage form the wolves work differently then a slash. A slash is more focused. A blast is well... a blast. Him surviving 2 wolves does not contradict him being downed by one slash

freshseth83
May 27, 2010, 05:30 PM
All i can say is that the reiatsu difference between guys like Rose Love Kensei to guys like Byakuya Kenpachi Shunsui is immense.

In SS Ichigo was the only one who could take the pressure of Kenpachi among his group. Then after that they said that Byakuya's spiritual pressure was on par or even greater than Kenpachi's was. Then on top of that, you see Juushiro Ukitake come out of nowhere and grab Byakuya's arm, in the middle of all that spiritual pressure with his Shikai out, but still Juushiro manages to stop him. With his hand by grabbing his arm. Yoruichi had to run and wrap his sword to stop his shikai. Then on top of that she had to run away. Ukitake was clearly Byakuya's senior, and Byakuya was on par with Kenpachi, then Kenpachi was on par with Ichigo is super mode in SS, and also better than #5 espada. What did the vizards do? Did they defeat any espada? Shinji was beating one armed grimmjow, but that's about it. As far as weve seen they lost a 2 vs. 1 against Starrk. They couldn't beat a 2 vs. 1 against Hallibel. Hacchi helped soi-fon beat #2 espada. But that's about it, WW creamed Kensei off screen. Shinji was taken down along with Soi-Fon and Shunsui thanks to Hitsugaya's impatience.

Nothing I've seen shows that the vizards are that great. Urahara looks to be good, he's smart. Yoruichi is fast and pretty strong as well. But that's only two of them. So two grade A guys with maybe one grade A vizard and a few grade B vizards with grade C VC vizards vs. 3 or 4 Grade A captains, 4 or 5 grade B captains and countless VC's?

Not only are the outcasts outnumbered, they are outclassed.

Hystzen
May 27, 2010, 06:20 PM
It seems i read your post wrong lol

Anyways, as aizen and kenpachi have stated, in a battle it is the battle of reiatsu. Your strength depends on your reiatsu, your strength, attacks, etc. Fact is love w/ mask and shikai couldn't scratch starks while shunsui was not only able to injure starks but kill him. HUGE difference in reiatsu don't u think?

Starkks used the wolves b/c lillinete urged him to be serious. Not that he was forced into a corner. 2 completely different ideas.

If shunsui had finished off starks w/ that sneak attack like hisagi, i wouldn't be defending him. However, he won against starks in a straight fight 1-on-1 after they both took a cheap shot at each other. That is a testament of his strenght. i find it ridiculous that people call him cheap


yea i see what you mean about starrk been undamaged but it doesnt make sense if you look at other fights where similar stuff has happened.

i mean look at shunsui when he got took out by starrk s cero he was cover in dirt but starrk was knocked by rose into the floor look at the crater but no dirt....i think kubo kinda messed up art wise i dont think it down to strength really coz rose love and shunsui if you look at timeline are sernior captains yes shunsui is older by we dont know by how much really it could be that he captain when love or rose where VCs or 2 or 3rd seats.

i dont class it as cheap just i dont class it as a 1 on 1 as starrk was fighting love n rose when shunsui returned...it wasent a cruelling fight say ichigo vs zaraki or the norita vs kenpachi if ya know what i mean ;).

but like im saying this whole starrk shunsui love rose argument is going in circles there are more fighters to discuss.

Raizen
May 27, 2010, 06:32 PM
yea i see what you mean about starrk been undamaged but it doesnt make sense if you look at other fights where similar stuff has happened.

i mean look at shunsui when he got took out by starrk s cero he was cover in dirt but starrk was knocked by rose into the floor look at the crater but no dirt....i think kubo kinda messed up art wise i dont think it down to strength really coz rose love and shunsui if you look at timeline are sernior captains yes shunsui is older by we dont know by how much really it could be that he captain when love or rose where VCs or 2 or 3rd seats.

i dont class it as cheap just i dont class it as a 1 on 1 as starrk was fighting love n rose when shunsui returned...it wasent a cruelling fight say ichigo vs zaraki or the norita vs kenpachi if ya know what i mean ;).

but like im saying this whole starrk shunsui love rose argument is going in circles there are more fighters to discuss.
Starks has magical clothes that heals by themselves lol. Dirt or not, there was no clear signs of injury.

Being a captain does not make u strong, relative to the other captains. Look at koma. My point is that the vizards have pretty low limits and abilities. They are not as impressive as teh captains we have seen today. Hitsu became captain in a matter of a few years, byakuya and gin became powerful captains in the span of 50 years from when they were little, so did soifon, etc.

But starks wasn't injured by rose and love. So their participation was not relevant. Shunsui got a shot in on starks with the shadow game while starks got one in with the massive cero. The playing field is pretty leveled.

The whole shunsui argument was to point out that someone like shunsui is stronger then 2 captain level fighters from teh outcast side. And there are other in SS just as strong as shunsui, like uki and unohana.
_______________
Another thing, if anyone here thinks that tessai can just freeze time and win you seriously need to take things into perspective. Obviously that technique is not meant for battle. Otherwise, why not use it on aizen

Hystzen
May 27, 2010, 06:37 PM
yea the whole freezing time is rather dumb he prob could do it in a fight just at the moment we have to assume as kubo wont show us tessai as he knows adding him now in this arc is stupid and he stalling enugh as it is.

im more intrested the fact we were shown shunko look what id did to houg aizen it damn strong.....and more intresting is uraharas zans ablities he is defo a high tier fighter as aizen admits he smarter and now his zan is shown some cool tricks.

En Yang Ji
May 27, 2010, 06:43 PM
- Tessai not using the time kido on Aizen doesn't mean he can't use it in battle. there is not enough info on the time-based kido to draw any accurate conlusions.

- From everything we've seen and heard regarding 90's level kido, do you guys think a fully powered 90's level kido can severely damage or OHKO a high level captain?

- I don't think anyone in the Outcast is better than Urahara, Shinji or Yoruichi. It would be interesting to see how the captains on SS's side would deal with shunko.

Hystzen
May 27, 2010, 06:47 PM
- From everything we've seen and heard regarding 90's level kido, do you guys think a fully powered 90's level kido can severely damage or OHKO a high level captain?

- I don't think anyone in the Outcast is better than Urahara, Shinji or Yoruichi. It would be interesting to see how the captains on SS's side would deal with shunko.

i really dont see the point in the forbidden kido they really dont seem to work they do more damage to the caster than the target.

lvl 90 black coffin was a waste koma ( the so called weakest captain) got up 2 or 3 panels later and was fine so dont think it dangerous.

after these weeks chapter he is how zaraki would be beat

shinji uses shikai messes with zaraki
urahara does his net
yoruichi shunko in face
urahara denonates the net

that be enugh to really weaken zaraki i belive

En Yang Ji
May 27, 2010, 07:11 PM
- I wouldn't call Komumura the weakest captain, IMO he's very underrated and can hold his own against some of the Gotei 13. Komumura was able to get up because he was a berserker, who can keep going even after severe damage.

Imagine Black Coffin 3 times stronger.

- Aizen was worried about level 90 kido even though he has 2 times captain level reiastu.

freshseth83
May 27, 2010, 09:46 PM
- I wouldn't call Komumura the weakest captain, IMO he's very underrated and can hold his own against some of the Gotei 13. Komumura was able to get up because he was a berserker, who can keep going even after severe damage.

Imagine Black Coffin 3 times stronger.

- Aizen was worried about level 90 kido even though he has 2 times captain level reiastu.

Black coffin failed because Aizen didn't have the skills or the abilities to use a 90 level Kido without the incantation at full power. This shows more about his skills than anything else. He wanted the hoguyoku to push himself past his limits of a shinigami. This incident coupled with the fact that Isshin came in and pushed Aizen to his limits without so much as a bankai or shikai shows me his limits aren't very high either.

emanresu
May 27, 2010, 10:38 PM
Black coffin failed because Aizen didn't have the skills or the abilities to use a 90 level Kido without the incantation at full power. This shows more about his skills than anything else. He wanted the hoguyoku to push himself past his limits of a shinigami. This incident coupled with the fact that Isshin came in and pushed Aizen to his limits without so much as a bankai or shikai shows me his limits aren't very high either.

Aizen used his reiatsu to turmoil Grimjaw who's pretty much Captain level. Isshin is on par due to the fact that he's not affected by KS.

freshseth83
May 27, 2010, 10:46 PM
that doesn't explain anything. a question was asked about the black coffin. I think it failed because Aizen's power wasn't high enough to do the spell without incantation.

DEATHBOTT
May 28, 2010, 12:28 AM
Black coffin failed because Aizen didn't have the skills or the abilities to use a 90 level Kido without the incantation at full power. This shows more about his skills than anything else. He wanted the hoguyoku to push himself past his limits of a shinigami. This incident coupled with the fact that Isshin came in and pushed Aizen to his limits without so much as a bankai or shikai shows me his limits aren't very high either.
you're the only one it is showing that. even in a fight without aizan you have to bash on him.:notrust no ones shown a full powered 90s kido but yama so quite trolling.

i think a full powered 90s kido would take out any of the captains, the problem is with getting one off because i dont think any of the combatants could do a full powered one without cantation. maybe tessai but i doubt it.

Random101
May 28, 2010, 12:34 AM
Urahara's showed one. One with a full incantation too, so it had to be all out in strength.

poobert
May 28, 2010, 06:38 AM
Urahara's showed one. One with a full incantation too, so it had to be all out in strength.

Unfortunately it did squat. :tem

---

Actually, as Aizen said that he might have needed to dodge it, it is obvious that a level 90 would do a hell of a lot of damage. It could ohko a lower level captain and severely injure a top level captain. Tessai will be a forced to be reckoned with. If he manages to hit soifon/hitsu/koma/byakuya/mayuri with a full powered black coffin, it will be over, especially if he tags up with a vizard vc who can finish the job.

Conversely, Uki has 100 kido, so he can probably knock a couple off too. It would ohko all the vizard vc's as well as kensei, love and rose if they don't have their mask on.

Tessai v Uki. Kido match of the century! Tessai has the advantage when it comes to kido. His should be more powerful and cast without an enchantment, but Uki can redirect them with his shkai.

AlB
May 28, 2010, 02:53 PM
Tessai v Uki. Kido match of the century! Tessai has the advantage when it comes to kido. His should be more powerful and cast without an enchantment, but Uki can redirect them with his shkai.

and there we have hachi, who's Mask + barriers that could withstand soifon's bankai (they just shattered a bit) will provide an absolute defence for his former superior

Hystzen
May 28, 2010, 03:06 PM
tessai and hachi for defence is a huge help for vizards coz hachi can also heal so tessai could use a barrier to protect him while he heals people.

and the new combo of benehime and yourichis shunko is a help

it seems the outcasts are showing they can win this fight

freshseth83
May 28, 2010, 05:14 PM
you're the only one it is showing that. even in a fight without aizan you have to bash on him.:notrust no ones shown a full powered 90s kido but yama so quite trolling.

i think a full powered 90s kido would take out any of the captains, the problem is with getting one off because i dont think any of the combatants could do a full powered one without cantation. maybe tessai but i doubt it.

see what you don't get, is that the level 90+ spells were of discussion, just because you disagree with me, doesn't mean I'm trolling. And my opinion stands. I think it's pretty plausible as well. If you read through my WHOLE post and didn't pick parts of it, you'd see I said, it didn't work because Aizen doesn't have the skill or the power to use it to it's full potential WITHOUT INCANTATION.

There you go. Is it clear to you now? I'm not making fun of Aizen, I'm saying that we haven't seen anyone but Yama use a 90+ spell without incantation to it's full power.

AlB
May 28, 2010, 05:22 PM
see what you don't get, is that the level 90+ spells were of discussion, just because you disagree with me, doesn't mean I'm trolling. And my opinion stands. I think it's pretty plausible as well. If you read through my WHOLE post and didn't pick parts of it, you'd see I said, it didn't work because Aizen doesn't have the skill or the power to use it to it's full potential WITHOUT INCANTATION.

There you go. Is it clear to you now? I'm not making fun of Aizen, I'm saying that we haven't seen anyone but Yama use a 90+ spell without incantation to it's full power.

Tessai binded Ichigo with strongest bakudo in existence - number 99 final stage without incantation http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/64/
Hachi binded kensei with 99 bakudo kin wihtout incantation http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/315.09/08/

freshseth83
May 28, 2010, 05:32 PM
Tessai binded Ichigo with strongest bakudo in existence - number 99 final stage without incantation http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/64/
Hachi binded kensei with 99 bakudo kin wihtout incantation http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/315.09/08/

Those guys are Kido experts, that's what they do. Use Kido. And the bakudo they used didn't even fully work either. You're telling me that those level 99 spells can be called successful when they were broken out of? Even guys from the Kido corps have trouble making super strong kido moves work to their highest potential.

El Samurai Guapo
May 28, 2010, 05:34 PM
Tessai binded Ichigo with strongest bakudo in existence - number 99 final stage without incantation http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/64/
Hachi binded kensei with 99 bakudo kin wihtout incantation http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/315.09/08/

Lol, I already know what they're going to tell you AlB, those didn't count because they were bakudou, not hadou.

As for Yamamoto, I doubt his hadou 96 was full power because it literally did jack to Aizen (Ichigo's weak ass GT did more damage). So either the old man's kidou ain't all that, or Aizen can tank level 90+ hadous.

freshseth83
May 28, 2010, 05:44 PM
Aizen could tank level 90+ kidos, that's what weve seen him doing. I'm guessing he realized that when he escaped the level 96 kido from Yama then got attacked by Ichigo's GT right to the shoulder. He healed immediately didn't he? I'm guessing Hoguyoku Aizen was already in place.

AlB
May 28, 2010, 05:54 PM
Lol, I already know what they're going to tell you AlB, those didn't count because they were bakudou, not hadou.

As for Yamamoto, I doubt his hadou 96 was full power because it literally did jack to Aizen (Ichigo's weak ass GT did more damage). So either the old man's kidou ain't all that, or Aizen can tank level 90+ hadous.

well, it doesn't matter. Kido is Kido: Bakudo's purpose is to incapacitate, Hado's purpose is to destroy. I would argue that 99 Bakudo is harder to conrol than any hado we have witnessed and will witness. why? because you must be very good at it to not to butcher your opponent. remember how worried Jinta was when Tessai started using it? kid feared that ichigo would die. when you fire off hado the purpose is simple: annihilate. when you use bakudo the purpose is far more complicated: immobilize with minimum harm.
also, it appears that Bakudo 99 final stage can be used as Hado as well. proof? Tessai's phrase: "I am going elimination mode." that means that Bakudo 99 has can serve both as hado and bakudo. anybody think that Hado 99 will have dual purpose as well? I don't think so...
Bakudo 99 final stage is hardest of kidos out there... and Tessai can spam it without incantations
[hr]

Those guys are Kido experts, that's what they do. Use Kido. And the bakudo they used didn't even fully work either. You're telling me that those level 99 spells can be called successful when they were broken out of? Even guys from the Kido corps have trouble making super strong kido moves work to their highest potential.

who broke out?
kensei? now when did he do that?
and for the record: if ichigo hadn't broken out of it then Bleach would be finished far earlier than expected
jokes aside, this really bothered me for a while, unti lwe found out truth about Hogyoku. There's no doubt Ichigo was under lingering effects of hogyoku when Tessai bind him with Bakudo 99 final stage. he wished with all his heart to live so he could save rukia and I believe that Hogyoku granted that wish.