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unknownymous
April 19, 2010, 02:49 PM
I'm sure this subject is very off topic but I'm curious so I’ll ask. How old do you think is Cross Marian?

Most data about him is unknown even in official fanbooks and I cant help but wonder about him. I mean, Tiedoll's 40, Klaud 32, Socalo 39, and Komui 29. (I got this from dgray-divinity)

The 14th, I'm guessing, died or betrayed the earl "35 years ago" according to road who said she was the only one who wasn't reborn in said number of year.

If Cross was somewhere in the 30-40 age group and he met the 14th somewhere before or within the 35 years, how old was he when they met? I'm too sleepy at the moment to do the math since its 3:45 in the morning from where I am, but it's either they met when they where really young, or Cross is just older than he looks.

He can do magic and all that, so i guess it's not entirely impossible.

Please tell me if their is already an existing thread about this. It just hit me, so I didn't bother searching for threads cause I didn't want to forget what I wanted to say.

Sorry bout that.

Making this into a new thread. :)

ying_su
April 20, 2010, 03:11 PM
I had a silly theory:

Cross (and others, like the 14th?) could be actually a tribe of immortal magicians whose story extends in the past over millenniums: wise men (and women) that knew in the far past about the Earl intentions and decided to stop him.

Theories apart: If we dont know about Cross age that means it will be a important corner on a future arc (as the kanda birthplace tourned to be).

Ofc, Cross isnt dead! :)

Jaymie
April 20, 2010, 03:16 PM
He's immortal, IMO.

F2C
April 23, 2010, 11:18 AM
I had a silly theory:

Cross (and others, like the 14th?) could be actually a tribe of immortal magicians whose story extends in the past over millenniums: wise men (and women) that knew in the far past about the Earl intentions and decided to stop him.

Theories apart: If we dont know about Cross age that means it will be a important corner on a future arc (as the kanda birthplace tourned to be).

Ofc, Cross isnt dead! :)

I think that theory isn't silly.

If you noticed, his magic uses the same spells as the skulls (with different results though), during his infiltration to find the egg he had the same appearance.
He was recognised by a skull he smashed back in the Arch arc (as an exorcist or as a member of the said tribe ?).

So what if as Bookmen who remain neutral but still chose to fight alongside the Order, Cross belonged to the tribe comprising the skulls and some others magicians who chose to serve the count ?
Considering that, he should be fighting along the Count but he -alone or with the 14th's help- rebelled against his kind and chose to fight for the Black Order.
That could explain also his kind of a special relationship with the count (see their exchanges when they meet in the Arch) and why he took Allen as a pupil.

Of course, it's still a theory, but I think Cross does not age anymore (if he ever was human).

P.S. : of course Cross is not dead !!

NAM61
April 23, 2010, 07:42 PM
he is probably immortal

MSofAofCOCA
April 26, 2010, 10:22 AM
at one point in time, i thought that cross might've been a modified akuma himself, but i've ditched that theory.....lol
uh, he's obviously at least 35, unless there's some time paradox involving 14th death.....
i'd say he's about 45, leaning towards 50. but that creeps me out if he's still such a womanizer....
...but that means he met 14th when he was allen's age ish?

ooooh, plot twist! xD

unknownymous
May 01, 2010, 09:30 AM
I think that theory isn't silly.

If you noticed, his magic uses the same spells as the skulls (with different results though), during his infiltration to find the egg he had the same appearance.
He was recognised by a skull he smashed back in the Arch arc (as an exorcist or as a member of the said tribe ?).

So what if as Bookmen who remain neutral but still chose to fight alongside the Order, Cross belonged to the tribe comprising the skulls and some others magicians who chose to serve the count ?
Considering that, he should be fighting along the Count but he -alone or with the 14th's help- rebelled against his kind and chose to fight for the Black Order.
That could explain also his kind of a special relationship with the count (see their exchanges when they meet in the Arch) and why he took Allen as a pupil.

Of course, it's still a theory, but I think Cross does not age anymore (if he ever was human).

P.S. : of course Cross is not dead !!

I agree with you on the not aging part and everyone saying that he might be immortal and what not.

I cant exactly draw a timetable, but if the 14th and Cross did meet more than within that 35 years, Cross would be so much older even when he is supposed to be the same age as the other generals(minus Yeegar of course).

For the skull thing, I think it was just his mask.

Jeez Cross for being such an enigma and having so many hidden things under his sleeves.

Just like some previous post, this will probably turn out to be quite an arc.

candy
July 27, 2010, 02:46 PM
long live cross!!!cross himself is an enigma.

Digital_Eon
July 27, 2010, 03:28 PM
You can't use the fact that the 14th attacked the Noah over 35 years ago as evidence of anything regarding Cross's age, because we have no evidence that Cross knew the 14th back then. He just had to have known the 14th before he died, which was definitely not more than 15 years ago (due to Allen's age). And we don't know how old Cross was then, so he could be no more than, say, thirty, if he was a teenager then... It's pretty unlikely, he's probably older than that, but the only way for him to have known the 14th thirty-five years ago is for him to not age normally, because no way is he physically fifty.

...Personally, I like the theory about Cross being a Skull, which would explain any problem with his apparent age. (It wouldn't make him immortal, though. Their lifespan is about 200 years, according to that one page in volume... 15? So he could be much older than he appears.)

georisell
August 02, 2010, 08:48 AM
I think he was around in the 35 year span..thing. Back in the chapter where the Earl was dragging Tyki and Skin into the arc, they made it a point to show that the only one that noticed the extra smell of smoke was Road. She was the only one that has been around for those 35 years. Maybe that could have been a foreshadowing of sorts?(besides the fact that it foreshadowed Cross on the arc)

I think that it would make sense on saying of Cross were a bookman. There's no way that only Bookman and Lavi are the only ones, since they recording everything in the world would be pretty difficult. Bookmen travel around, learn different things, learn about the different cultures, and Cross is like the great big book of everything. He knows the different sides, he (presumably) knows the 14th, he knows spells. Maybe Cross was just a bit more thorough than even bookman. Maybe he's recorded the other side of the war as well?

Then there's the other point of view that I came up while typing this, that maybe Cross learned spells in his time as a scientist for the order, there making it hard again to prove how old he is. Magicians and alchemists were considered scientists in that era according to hoshino in a pic) and so the scientists could all know their fair amount of spells right? So his age could be around the same as Komui and Reever.

Oh Cross you're such a puzzle

ying_su
August 02, 2010, 02:49 PM
Or either he's inmortal (according to my theory) or he was a young boy as Allen now in the times of the 14th...
I mean, master 14th bulling his pupil Cross. xDDD
Hahahaha~ Too much fun... xD

candy
August 02, 2010, 03:00 PM
if the 14th was cross's master maybe now allen will make him pay his debts!

ying_su
August 02, 2010, 03:06 PM
Ahh, i really want to see it XDDDDDDD

Aracely
August 04, 2010, 10:32 AM
There is one thing which contradicts the idea that Cross is immortal and/or has completely stopped ageing.

In Noche, there's a sketchy picture of several of the the Black Order characters when they were younger. At a rough guess, I'd say it's set 7-9 years before the present canon. Cross is there too, and although his face isn't fully visible, personally I think he looks several years younger than he did at the last canon point we saw him at. We do know that he used to be a scientist, so maybe he was working as a scientist at the Black Order before he became an Exorcist.

If Cross has been ageing at a normal rate, I don't believe that he could have met the 14th if the 14th died a full 35 years ago. He would have been too young. So thinking that way, it's much more likely that the 14th was on the run for several years before he was killed.

On the other hand, I think it's highly likely that Cross is a Skull. If the info above about Skulls living to maybe 200 is true, then presumably they would still age to some extent, and that would explain why Cross seems to have aged a little since the time setting of the Noche sketch. And that way we still don't know if Cross knew the 14th 35 years ago or if he met the 14th later on.

Anyway, there's just no way that Cross is the age he looks. In Gray Ark, his age isn't given. There has to be a reason for that. Road's age wasn't given in Gray Ark either, and look how old she's turned out to be!

ying_su
August 04, 2010, 10:35 AM
If you dont mind, would you give us a link? :)

Aracely
August 04, 2010, 10:55 AM
A link to the Noche picture? Okay. I've had to crop it to only show some of the picture, since my internet connection is slow right now and the full image is so large, but I've got all of the bit with Cross in included. It's definitely him, because he's holding Timcanpy and is smoking.

http://i37.tinypic.com/bhcbhu.jpg

ying_su
August 04, 2010, 11:24 AM
Hahahaha~
Well i dont know, he seems like a young 14th (too much like Allen)...

Aracely
August 04, 2010, 11:27 AM
Cross reminds me of Allen in that picture too. Like Master like student? Could be!

Dlanor_A.Knox
August 04, 2010, 02:00 PM
Hahaha xD look at Cross his grin xD

I think he's arround.. dunno...45?
wow if he certainly looks good if he is this old xD

Lavigirl_ruki
August 06, 2010, 01:00 AM
hoe?
that's definitely Cross, but he looks like Allen in Zombie arc..:notrust

i think he is in his late 40s..:(

Naomidee
September 04, 2010, 11:24 AM
Wow, I've never seen that picture, thanks for posting. And yeah, if you hadn't specifically mentioned it being Cross, I would have immediately assumed that it was Allen.

I definitely think the idea of Cross always being The Fourteenth's follower was interesting and true.
It really thwarts my perceptions though, because I've always seen Cross as the all-knowing mysterious character. Now that I know he might just be the apprentice of someone else, it just kinda surprises me is all. Very interesting stuff!

But anyway, I would guess that Cross is late in his 40s-early 50s (assuming he is still alive). It's very possible for men that old to be very sexy though...
I mean, just look at George Clooney, Johnny Depp, Robert Downey Jr. Age isn't always a bad thing. ;)

p1xel
September 07, 2010, 12:53 PM
I think that he will live like 5000years.
Or until the world ends:P

clamche
September 10, 2010, 04:29 AM
I don't think Cross is much older than 40. We don't know when he met the 14th and became his follower. Maybe it was when he was sent to destroy the egg 4 years ago. From then Cross cut off all contacts with the Order. Why? Maybe he met the 14th who told him something then died and Cross, now knowing some secrets and carrier of the 14th's will watched over Mana and then took Allen as an apprentice.
So maybe Cross is not that old or immortal. He's around 35-40.

Sensei42
January 30, 2011, 06:06 AM
From looking at that picture(which I have spazzed over many a time becuase it's just SO him) I'd say he looks to be around Kanda and Lavi's age. A teenager at most. I personally think Cross is probably in his mid 30's, maybe pushing onto 40.

I agree with a lot of people when they say that the 14th didn't die 35 years ago, but rather went on the run with Mana. For all we know Cross didn't meet him untill years later when he was still quite young.

lol, I had this crack idea that the reason his age isn't revealed in the fanbook is because he's extremely vain and doesn't want people knowing his age.

Cross: My age? I'm 29 >.> *coughs* yeah, totally... *slavers on face cream*

steelwingcrash1
February 06, 2011, 05:11 AM
From the looks of it, he's a middle-aged man. So I assume, 40 years old?

Charmtwister
June 16, 2011, 09:53 PM
cross has to deffinitly be older than 35; we all know that (unless, like Digital_Eon said, he doesn't age normally.) I also want to add something: we all know the 14th died around 35 years ago. but the thing some people are confused on is that, before the 14th could truly die, something happened to him (not sure what-sorry) and he was never 100% dead. Freaky, right? Anyway, somehow he got, you can say, reincarnated, and is now a subconcious part if allen. the 14th is 'asleep' inside of Allen because he was greatly weakened-and supposed to be dead. If this 'part' of Allen is ever awakened-and later on we see that he is awakened-; and if the 14ths powers are at least somewhat regenerated, then the 14th has a chance of taking over Allen and can even be capable of puting his mind and soul into allen's body and driving allen's mind and soul out. Even freakier, right? well, the only thing wrong with my theory is that d. gray man is already finished (but there is a rumour-only a rumour-that d. gray man is starting once more in july.) ah, well, it ca. still be true. :)
ps-can someone please fill me in on what a 'Skull' is?

Asclepius
June 19, 2011, 05:58 PM
D.Gray-man is still an ongoing serie. It was absent from last JumpSQ due to the author's illness.

We don't know exactly when the 14th died. 35 years ago he started to kill the Noahs. He ran away with Mana and was hunted. This could have lasted 1 year or 20 years. There are losts of theories about this fact.

So far, we saw that a skull is a human turned into a monster that obbeys to the Noahs and can use magic.

Charmtwister
June 24, 2011, 03:52 PM
D.Gray-man is still an ongoing serie. It was absent from last JumpSQ due to the author's illness.

We don't know exactly when the 14th died. 35 years ago he started to kill the Noahs. He ran away with Mana and was hunted. This could have lasted 1 year or 20 years. There are losts of theories about this fact.

So far, we saw that a skull is a human turned into a monster that obbeys to the Noahs and can use magic.

wait a sec I thought d gray man had completely stopped production thanks to the author falling ill...though, come to think of it, that probably isn't a good enough reason anyway. thanks for filling me in on skulls; I have not yet completed either the manga or anime so I haven't 'encountered' that in the story yet-when does/do the skull(s) come into the story?

riki
June 24, 2011, 11:26 PM
The conversation is going off-topic. If you wish to continue the current topic, please post at the DGM Hangout thread. Thank you!

Dlanor_A.Knox
June 25, 2011, 02:53 PM
Neh, it's never stated that Cross was with Neah from the beginning right? So he could have met Neah in those 35 years, so he could be like 32 xD

Ah, it really is a mystery.... Why would Hoshino put age: Unknown in the character book x'D?

Naomidee
June 26, 2011, 12:42 AM
Oh they usually put ages in character books, right? I didn't think of that. Maybe the question will finally be solved. I'm putting my bets on 44.

Ruki92x
July 01, 2011, 10:13 AM
hmm his age?
i been wondering that to HAHAH maybe around 40-50 years old?

Sensei42
July 14, 2011, 10:26 AM
Hm, with the latest chapter we know that he's at least over 35 years old since that's when Neah died. He certinally doesn't look like a 50+ guy to me so I think this cements the fact that he doesn't age normally.

Naomidee
July 18, 2011, 01:51 PM
With that mask of his, that seems to have the ability to change his appearance at his will, might have something to do with the fact that he looks so young. With a disguise like that, Cross could be anyone.

Dlanor_A.Knox
July 27, 2011, 02:05 PM
The didn't reveal his age in the new character book as far as I've seen..... *sigh* why is that fact so mysterious?

Asarii
July 28, 2011, 01:47 AM
The didn't reveal his age in the new character book as far as I've seen..... *sigh* why is that fact so mysterious?

It's really a shame! We don't even know which country he's from so he's shrouded in mystery. My guess is that he's in his late-30s to early-40s.

Dlanor_A.Knox
July 28, 2011, 05:28 AM
Could be.... Or maybe Hoshino is planning something? (Cross lived a 100 years already or something and he came from Atlantis!!....lol...)

Aracely
July 28, 2011, 09:45 AM
It's really a shame! We don't even know which country he's from so he's shrouded in mystery. My guess is that he's in his late-30s to early-40s.

Late 30s to early 40s...that might be impossible, given that at the time of Mana's death, chapter 206 of DGM reveals that Cross had apparently been searching for the 14th's new host for the past 30 years. And adding that to the five or so years since then, Cross must be at the very least 35 years old, but of course he actually has to be older than that, too. Because if he is, say, 40 years old...that would mean he met the 14th and became his follower at the age of 5. Which is very unrealistic. If we up his age to 45, that, too, is unrealistic.

Could Cross have been the 14th's follower at the age of 10, and been the one person the 14th relied on to promise to take care of Mana? Doubtful. I imagine that Cross must have been at the very least 15 at that time. So my guess is that his age now is a minimum of 50, but that he could be older than that. As Sensei says above, we know for a fact now that Cross is either not ageing naturally, or using some sort of magic to hide his real appearance. I'm betting on the former.

Asarii
August 01, 2011, 01:01 AM
Could be.... Or maybe Hoshino is planning something? (Cross lived a 100 years already or something and he came from Atlantis!!....lol...)
Maybe! :XD There's probably a reason why several of the characters don't have a complete profile.


Late 30s to early 40s...that might be impossible, given that at the time of Mana's death, chapter 206 of DGM reveals that Cross had apparently been searching for the 14th's new host for the past 30 years. And adding that to the five or so years since then, Cross must be at the very least 35 years old, but of course he actually has to be older than that, too. Because if he is, say, 40 years old...that would mean he met the 14th and became his follower at the age of 5. Which is very unrealistic. If we up his age to 45, that, too, is unrealistic.

Could Cross have been the 14th's follower at the age of 10, and been the one person the 14th relied on to promise to take care of Mana? Doubtful. I imagine that Cross must have been at the very least 15 at that time. So my guess is that his age now is a minimum of 50, but that he could be older than that. As Sensei says above, we know for a fact now that Cross is either not ageing naturally, or using some sort of magic to hide his real appearance. I'm betting on the former.
My guess was based on his appearance alone so your calculations are more correct since you've taken into account on how long he's been searching for the 14th's host. The ages of quite a few characters (Mana, Road, Allen and even Tyki) are either unknown or presumed. It's possible that the ages are withheld so a definite timeline won't be made.

Shaera
August 04, 2012, 03:10 AM
The new chappie left me thinking about one thing, so guys... am I the only one who´s been bothered by Cross´ age? I mean when he and Allen met the last time, he said that he was keeping an eye on him and that Allen/14th "promissed" him that he would return to Mana´s side - so here is the thing: Either Neah told him himself before he died and that would make Cross a reeeeeal old man: He said that 35 years ago and I think no child would be in a place of war *Note: I call it war.... but I mean the time when Neah had been taking care of his "brothers"* and it seemed to me that past!Allen took the only opportunity to let Neah use him short after the battle, and he also had lost his memories. Soooo I guess Cross HAD to be in a possition of interfere with the battle that maked me think he HAD to be older than 20 at least!

Here go my theories:
- Cross and Neah knew each other, as well as Past!Allen knew Neah. Right after the battle Allen took the oportunity to offer himself to Neah (I have such an urge to say "offered his body to Neah" but I don´t want to spread the slashes just for now :teehee anyways) and Cross found them, taking the possessed Allen and in that moment he could tell him that he would return. Aaaand I will be very optimistic and say that Cross is a veeeery talented magician and had made Allen young again.... (which of course had to be some time later *during the 35 years* coz Allen had to age to the certain point of being....5? i guess when Mana found him..... ) this making Cross at least 52 years old.

-Or all that could happen without Cross, someone else took care of him, I would say that, again, some magician made him young but this time I dare to say Neah did his job inadvertently making Allen young again, and that mysterious man was related to young Cross, myby his family and so, and then when the person died, Cross took care of Allen... making Cross I´d say 35 - coz he really looked like a 35-year-old


Sooo... If anyone bothered to read this - These are just my personal thoughts and I would like to hear your opinions.... so no flaming back *mental Thank you* I am really bad at smooth writting so I hope you know what I wanted to say....

I am sorry for the mistakes in spelling (if there are some) and in the grammar (if there are some).








* I am seriously thinking about writting a fanfic about this... hmm..... Allen offering his body to Neah....OMG I am such a pervert.... *

non-chan
August 04, 2012, 09:06 AM
Cross is a veeeery talented magician and had made Allen young again....
I don't think so, chapter 206 revealed that Cross didn't aware of Allen being a kid :oh

Dlanor_A.Knox
August 29, 2012, 09:26 AM
This shows one of the many reasons of why Cross shouldn't/couldn't have died yet!
He has to many mysteries around him xD (+ he's awesome)

RandomShikafan
January 06, 2013, 06:21 PM
Cross knew Neah 35 years ago, and more importantly was old enough to create the best Golem ever even back then so yeah, 50+, at least.

th3zone
February 25, 2013, 12:37 AM
I have question guys.. I see many people believe that Cross is not dead. Can someone explain or give hints that cross is not dead.. Like some sort of hints given in manga. ( I even Personally believe that cross marian is not dead... he is just too good to die that way..) Another question is that since Cross's body wasn't found and his judgment gun is no longer his... what is the possibility of falling to a god?

capricorn
February 25, 2013, 10:09 PM
I have question guys.. I see many people believe that Cross is not dead. Can someone explain or give hints that cross is not dead.. Like some sort of hints given in manga. ( I even Personally believe that cross marian is not dead... he is just too good to die that way..) Another question is that since Cross's body wasn't found and his judgment gun is no longer his... what is the possibility of falling to a god?

The only things I can really tell you are: (1) We didn't get an actual dead body to confirm his death, (2) I don't see how such an important figure in the story can die like that with so little explanation and (3) Yes he is just too awesome to die like that.

I'm still a bit fuzzy on the fullest conditions for one to become a fallen but given the nature of Cross's role as it relates to nea, i think that even if he wadsn't shot with judgement he would still be in danger of becoming a fallen eventually.

RandomCuteOtaku
February 26, 2013, 12:52 AM
I have question guys.. I see many people believe that Cross is not dead. Can someone explain or give hints that cross is not dead.. Like some sort of hints given in manga. ( I even Personally believe that cross marian is not dead... he is just too good to die that way..) Another question is that since Cross's body wasn't found and his judgment gun is no longer his... what is the possibility of falling to a god?

heh, I think most fans are in denial about Cross's death, but, in my opinion, the likelihood of Cross being alive is directly proportional to how much he knows that is relevant to the plot, and how much of what he knows can't be explained by someone else. Right now, the way I see it, there's a good chance that Cross knows too much relevant backstory (and by relevant backstory, I mean a lot of information about the "Walker" brothers and Allen) to be dead just yet, though quite a lot of what he knows could possibly be explained using Neah's memories...

idk but, as for good solid proof, the fact that his body hasn't been found and that he still has Grave of Maria with him makes me think that he's still alive out there, somewhere...

As for whether or not he's become one of the fallen (i think that's what you were getting at...? :'D) i don't think he has...? I mean, accommodators become one of the fallen when they've "betrayed the innocence/God" right? But does abandoning Judgment really qualify as that? Then again, we don't yet know how someone with an equipment type innocence would even become one of the fallen, so..

I hope that answered your questions! ;v;

CrossCrow
February 28, 2013, 03:41 AM
I concur, you raise good points which I hadn't thought of. Given that Grave of Maria is missing along with Cross and our knowledge of GoM's power I'd say it is fairly safe to assume that Cross is alive, He may even have used GoM to reprogram Judgement like he does the Akuma, thus explaining Hevlaska's belied that Judgement has lost it's accommodater. Also we have seen something similar to this, when Kanda left Mugen behind and it became rusted. Perhaps innocence needs to be within a certain distance of it's accommodator or it will start to look for another compatible.

Back to Cross's age though, I think Cross is in some way responsible for Allen's current age situation, we know that Cross and Neah knew each other 35 years ago, Cross knows the ancient magic, he probably used some sort of anti aging spell on himself and reverse aging on Allen. Plus Anita's mother supposedly fell in love with Cross at first sight, which was before Anita was 15 since Anita's mother died then. I don't know how old Anita was by the time she died but I would guess she is more than 25 years old. I'd say Cross is maybe 70 years old. IMO Cross needs his own arc, explaining his circumstances, but I guess that will come soon with Neah on his way.

RandomCuteOtaku
February 28, 2013, 04:42 PM
Exactly. Grave of Maria's power to conceal is definitely 90% of the reason i still think Cross is lurking around somewhere. However, I don't know if it was her power that somehow made him no longer Judgment's accommodator...i don't think it's powers work like that...though with what little that we know about the innnocence, i suppose anything is possible there, even innocence altering other innocence...

but i'm more inclined to think that perhaps it was just distance, and Judgment simply didn't recognize him as it's accommodator because he was too far away? but then, if that's the case, you have to wonder how he managed to get so far away quickly enough for Judgment not to be his innocence any longer when it was found in the morning...

About Cross's age, I'd also say he's getting up there in the numbers; at the very least he's in his late fifties. Him being such a large part in Neah's plot and the events that took place 35 years ago proves that much. But, as for him being in some way responsible for Allen's current age...i don't think so, seeing as when he first encountered Allen as "Red" he didn't recognize him as the man called "Allen" from 35 years ago, and, if he'd been somehow involved in his "de-aging" (unless it was something that happened gradually and he was outside of Cross's radar while it was occuring) wouldn't he?

idk just my thoughts...

CrossCrow
March 02, 2013, 12:47 AM
Good point, if Cross was involve with Allen from 35 years ago and he knew Allen was host to the 14th's memories then surely he would have kept an eye on Allen instead of Mana. Although Nea did say that he would return to Mana one day which is how Cross knew Allen was the 14th's host.

As for Cross recognising Allen, I don't think Allen was called "Allen" 35 years ago, since Allen got his name from Mana's dog after it died when Allen was still known as "Red". (this name situation is confusing enough).

Hmm, I kinda wonder about Cross' relationship with Neah 35 years ago, was he Neah's student? After all Cross knows the ancient magic, he had to learn it from somewhere, and I just figured he'd been using his knowledge of the magic to keep himself young. I thought he might have used it on "Allen" in an attempt to hide and protect him.

Maybe Allen grew young just from becoming a host for the 14th (since he was not naturally chosen to be a host there might be some sort of catch).

Back to Cross' age, I Have to agree with you, anywhere from 55 up would seem to be a safe guess, otherwise Cross would have been too young to have a strong connection to Neah.

Ugh, my thoughts are so damn jumbled, I keep remembering more things as I type so I can't seem to keep a straight line of thought here.

kannazuki
March 09, 2013, 11:07 PM
Hi everyone, this is my first post here. I tend to jump right into conversation. Hope that's okay. ^_^;
As for whether or not he's become one of the fallen (i think that's what you were getting at...? :'D) i don't think he has...? I mean, accommodators become one of the fallen when they've "betrayed the innocence/God" right? But does abandoning Judgment really qualify as that? Then again, we don't yet know how someone with an equipment type innocence would even become one of the fallen, so..Judgment was "corroded" either by Apocryphos (who has mentioned corroding Innocence before-- possibly even Judgment itself but I can't recall which), OR because Cross abandoned it. (Remember, Mugen corroded just because Kanda left it behind and was presumably dying. It only sprung back to life when he told it to "awaken" and then went crystal like Lenalee) In order for Cross to go Fallen, he'd have to still be near Judgment, and obviously he isn't. Also, where would he go Fallen without someone seeing it? Finders are always keeping their ears to the ground, right? Also, when Lenalee went crystal, Bookman and Lavi had a side conversation about it and Bookman warned him not to get too close to the Innocence-- to abandon it, if it showed signs of behaving like Lenalee's did. So I'd think Cross could leave Judgment behind safely. As for GoM, the innocence is synced to Maria, so it makes no sense for him to go Fallen. ^_^


Back to Cross's age though, I think Cross is in some way responsible for Allen's current age situation, we know that Cross and Neah knew each other 35 years ago, Cross knows the ancient magic, he probably used some sort of anti aging spell on himself and reverse aging on Allen. Plus Anita's mother supposedly fell in love with Cross at first sight, which was before Anita was 15 since Anita's mother died then. I don't know how old Anita was by the time she died but I would guess she is more than 25 years old. I'd say Cross is maybe 70 years old. IMO Cross needs his own arc, explaining his circumstances, but I guess that will come soon with Neah on his way.Interesting. As someone mentioned, the novel chapter "Lost Fragment of Snow" has Cross as an adult 35 years ago. I'd say his appearance is late twenties to early thirties while taking care of Allen in 206, and early-to-mid thirties at the time of his "death." So he needs to be at *least* 55 years old. I wouldn't be surprised at all if he was a lot older than that.

BTW regarding Allen: I think the most likely circumstance is that we're dealing with an Allen who either suddenly or gradually became younger, somewhere during that 35 years. Nea does recognize him by name both in 198 and 215, after all. IMO the bit from "Lost Fragment of Snow" in which Mana babbles some crazy talk (:p) about his own age could be relevant to this. I've seen theories that either accepting Nea's memories or being synced to an Innocence caused past Allen to become younger. I lean toward it being an "overnight" thing, like with Mana. Becoming younger could simply erase his memories from before. (Alternatively, if it was the Innocence that made him younger, I wouldn't be surprised if it was Apocryphos who erased his memories of being the host for a Noah-- and maybe even synced him with his Innocence in the first place at some point after Nea died, when no one else would've been around to know about it.) But I find it significant that Cross, in the novel, bothers to ask Red if he's Allen. That he'd even consider the possibility that a little 8-year-old boy could be "Allen." BTW personally I like to think that maybe the dog was named after Past Allen, and then Red got his name *back* because of it. :>

CrossCrow
March 10, 2013, 03:05 AM
BTW regarding Allen: I think the most likely circumstance is that we're dealing with an Allen who either suddenly or gradually became younger, somewhere during that 35 years. Nea does recognize him by name both in 198 and 215, after all. IMO the bit from "Lost Fragment of Snow" in which Mana babbles some crazy talk (:p) about his own age could be relevant to this. I've seen theories that either accepting Nea's memories or being synced to an Innocence caused past Allen to become younger. I lean toward it being an "overnight" thing, like with Mana. Becoming younger could simply erase his memories from before. (Alternatively, if it was the Innocence that made him younger, I wouldn't be surprised if it was Apocryphos who erased his memories of being the host for a Noah-- and maybe even synced him with his Innocence in the first place at some point after Nea died, when no one else would've been around to know about it.) But I find it significant that Cross, in the novel, bothers to ask Red if he's Allen. That he'd even consider the possibility that a little 8-year-old boy could be "Allen." BTW personally I like to think that maybe the dog was named after Past Allen, and then Red got his name *back* because of it. :>

I think that Cross asked if Red was "Allen" because he saw Allen performing with Nea, and Nea's flyers stated that he performed with his dog "Allen", so more of Cross' cynical humor there, I might be mistaken though, I'll reread that. I do like the idea that this is Allen reclaiming his name, it does seem appropriately symbolic on some level. Although Cross does appear to be in his mid twenties right across the board, it might just be that it is hard to display age in manga/anime, but he doesn't really appear to have aged from when he took care of Allen and when he disappeared, I got a bit confused because Cross tied his hair back when he took care of Allen, but when Cross finds Allen in front of Mana's grave stone his hair is not tied back, making him appear older to me. I just remembered, Cross was friends with Aryster's grandfather, who died roughly twenty years ago (unless I missed my guess). Also Cross' prediction of Aryster acting strangely after returning "Rosie" to him raises some questions about whether or not Cross really can manipulate innocence IMO.

As for Nea recognising Allen, Nea has slowly been awakening since Kanda stabbed Allen in Paris, I had assumed that Nea was aware enough during the time between the Paris incident and the Alma Karma Arc to get some basic info on Allen, or maybe he just knows certain things about his host, like an instinct. Of course you make a good point and you may well be right. I find it a bit odd however, in 198 that Neah says Allen with quotation marks, "Allen". To me this sounds almost as though Neah is simply humoring Allen's new identity (having trouble expressing this sentiment, it's so clear in my head but to put it into coherent sentences is difficult).

Now that you remind me of it, Mana becoming older and Allen becoming younger, seems like too much of a coincidence. perhaps Mana had to have time taken from him in order to make Allen younger, a trade off in years I suppose you could say, although Cross does say that Mana went insane after Neah died, so he might simply have memory lapses, it will be interesting to find out which for sure. I'm more inclined to the memory lapse theory, after all, Mana was a young adult when Neah died 35 years ago, and when Allen met him he was an old man, Mana's age and the the amount of time that has passed seems to be consistent, rendering my previous thought moot.

kannazuki
March 10, 2013, 06:29 PM
As I recall from the novel, Cross asked Red if he's "Allen," and then Red was confused and didn't say anything. Then he said "I don't mean the dog." It would have been very clever if he was making a cynical joke about Red being like the dog like you mentioned, but that's not how the novel chapter reads. (At least, not the translation I saw.) I'm pretty sure in DGM chapter 204-ish (the flashback right before he's "killed"), Cross tells Apo that "Allen" wasn't his name sooner and that he "should have realized the mistake sooner." That mistake should be that he should have realized that Red was "Allen" sooner, I would think.

The name reclamation is just a hunch of mine, but I think it fits nicely. :)

Yes, it's very suspicious that not only Nea but even Mana in Allen's own post-apocalyptic (and strangely modern) dream in 183? calls him "Allen" (with the quotation marks) once. In the dream, it then becomes "AOOO" or "A****" after that depending on the translation. I always think that dream-Mana should really be referring to Nea (since the brothers thing is what Allen was angsting about), but then why the "A" at the start? The dream even specifically ends with young Allen (but with white hair and scar) asking Mana to call him Allen. However in chapter 215, Nea definitely talks about Allen with familiarity, and I don't recall him saying it with the quotation marks anymore, even though he should be calling him by the name he always knew him by. Nea is saddened his "friend" has now become an enemy, right? So I think Nea in 198 was more getting at "Allen" being a "mad doll" (or "puppet") just like the Earl rather than a real, whole person.

I feel the same way about the Mana becoming older and Allen younger thing. But Crown Clown is predicted to become a "destroyer of time," so I wonder if that could have something to do with it. It's a bizarre coincidence that one thinks he suddenly aged and the other *definitely* somehow became younger.

Anyway sorry for the tangent, folks. I just haven't got much to go on when it comes to Cross' age & I just wanted to talk about those couple of things. :o

RandomCuteOtaku
March 10, 2013, 07:51 PM
ok, so y'all both seem to be totally down for the idea of Allen somehow de-aging over (or abruptly, some time during) approximately 35 years and then suddenly stopping and starting to age again, and i know this is kinda off topic but, why do you think that would be a necessity for "older Allen"? Like, why would he decide (or his innocence decide, i dunno which theory you prefer there) to make him younger and then suddenly decide to make him older? And how is it related to Neah?

because, i know that the timeline in this manga is absolutely, for want of a better word, fucked up, but i honestly can't say that i agree too much with that theory, simply because it leaves way too many plot holes open as it is...?

I dunno i'm just curious to hear someone's take on it...because I've seen the theory floating around for awhile, and it does give an explanation for the older!Allen and how he supposedly became younger, but I don't see how/why that would happen
youtotallydon'thavetoanswerthis,i'mjustcurious,becausenoonewhohaspresentedthistheorytomehasevergivenmeanexplanation...;v;

kannazuki
March 11, 2013, 03:16 AM
I just think for the time being it makes sense to accept the "testimony" (even I don't want to call it actual evidence, lol) that points to Allen being one person and having gotten younger for some reason. When Hoshino rolls out something that actively counters the idea (as opposed to it just looking unlikely because of the messed up timeline), I'll drop it at that point. ;)

IF it turns out they're not the same person though (even though Nea recognizes him), then I would guess the elderly collaborator with the 14th that the Order has in their custody (and which everyone has probably either forgotten about or never knew about due to an inaccurate translation) might be Older!Allen (except I think if he aged normally, Older!Allen should only be middle aged at this point and not elderly). You can see the ONLY reference to this person (by Lvellie, who's speaking to Komui) in the same chapter where Allen meets Howard Link (sorry I forgot the number). Alternatively, it could be a "puppet" of Allen like Nea referenced in 198 being a "mad puppet" (or "doll") like the Earl. Why would there be a puppet of Allen? Good question I do know some reasons but I'd probably have to explain it in a separate thread I'm thinking of starting about the Earl.

I agree the timeline looks pretty fucked up right now, and it certainly does seem to create plot holes but how's this for one: You know Allen's dream in 184? Why are there modern skyscrapers and traffic lights (the few that existed back then only had two lights, not three, I've been told) in the Victorian era? Hoshino is hinting time is really going to get messed up at some point.

But hey, if Cross can freeze his own age (because even if only a little, that's what it looks like to me xD), then why not have Allen reverse his? :p

CrossCrow
March 11, 2013, 04:31 AM
Yes, it's very suspicious that not only Nea but even Mana in Allen's own post-apocalyptic (and strangely modern) dream in 183? calls him "Allen" (with the quotation marks) once. In the dream, it then becomes "AOOO" or "A****" after that depending on the translation. I always think that dream-Mana should really be referring to Nea (since the brothers thing is what Allen was angsting about), but then why the "A" at the start? The dream even specifically ends with young Allen (but with white hair and scar) asking Mana to call him Allen.


Hmm, this had actually confused me for a long time but i never looked into it too much, now that you mention it though, I think that Mana's changing allens name the more he says it until only OOO is left (from Allen-Alleo-Aoo-OOO in my translation) is actually Neah (sometimes Nea) taking over, and Mana constantly changing Allen's name each time he says it until OOO becomes the end result is meant to be symbolic of this, since in the next page we see the 14th actually possess Allen until Lenalee snaps him out of it. Nea does say something about Allen being consumed by his dreams until only Nea himself remains.


Cross tells Apo that "Allen" wasn't his name sooner and that he "should have realized the mistake sooner." That mistake should be that he should have realized that Red was "Allen" sooner, I would think.
I thought this scene between Cross and Apo was basically Cross confirming that Allen is the 14th. I don't know the full implication behind it yet so i'll try to keep an open mind. But Cross saying, "When we first met, he didn't introduce himself as Allen, should have realised the mistake sooner" (this isn't a direct quote, just off memory) I thought Cross meant that he hadn't realised Allen didn't introduce himself as "Allen", but you are right, Cross might have thought that Allen wasn't past "Allen" (that hasn't been confirmed as his past name so i'll use it sparingly for now) because he didn't introduce himself as "allen", but that would also imply that Cross at the very least knew about past "Allen" and that he would be the one carrying the 14th's memory.

I'm starting to think myself into circles again so i'll try to keep the rest of this as brief as possible.


ok, so y'all both seem to be totally down for the idea of Allen somehow de-aging over (or abruptly, some time during) approximately 35 years and then suddenly stopping and starting to age again, and i know this is kinda off topic but, why do you think that would be a necessity for "older Allen"? Like, why would he decide (or his innocence decide, i dunno which theory you prefer there) to make him younger and then suddenly decide to make him older? And how is it related to Neah?

I'm leaning towards the theory that being implanted with the memory of the noah, (instead of born with it like the rest are) might have something to do with it. Implanting a person to become the next host seems to be an unnatural selection of the next Noah and might require the mental processing of a child in order for it to work. That said, Allen's de-aging could also have been an attempt to hide Allen from the Noah while he protects Nea's memories, thus sparking my theory that Cross is an all powerful time wizard. However Kannazuki pointing out Hevlaska's perdiction has a point. Being predicted as the destroyer of time, perhaps Crown Clown really does have more to do with this than we first thought. But that also brings up the Apo theory which seems a bit flawed. Why would Apo implant a noah with innocence and reverse their age? The moment Allen showed signs of noahfication, apo just tried to absorb him anyway.

I'm definately up for debating this, but right now my head is spinning so i'll finish there for now. Thanks RandomCuteOtaku and Kannazuki. Thought provoking points you brought up.

kannazuki
March 12, 2013, 07:22 AM
*nods*

Regarding the "OOO" and "*****" thing, I checked two different Japanese blogs. They transcribe it slightly differently but the content is the same:

ぼくは『●●●』じゃないよ。
 アレンて、ちゃんと呼んでよ。boku wa "OOO" ja nai yo.
aren te, chanto yonde yo.
"I'm not 'OOO!' It's Allen, just call me that!"

I figured "O" would be the more accurate one since it's typical to blank/omit information in Japanese by using "O" in its place. So anyway it doesn't *seem* that he's saying "I'm not Nea," because that's only two characters in Japanese: ネア. I had that sliver of doubt because it *seems* like whatever he's telling Mana not to call him is apparently three characters long. "Allen" (アレン) is three characters long incidentally, so it may be that she simply stopped at blanking his name out one character at a time. It's a strange choice if she did that though, because it's not like she had to hide Nea's name any further than blanking it out. No one was going to guess what it was from "OO." And she does have it as 『アレ●』 and 『ア●●』before finally getting to "OOO." Might as well drop one more and go to "OO."

I've always thought Cross knew about the past "Allen" but that he just didn't know what he would look like (at least, not in the present). But I based that on the lines from the novel chapter and figured that it was just further confirmed for him in 206 where he says this was the person who appeared before Mana.

@RandomCuteOtaku: For now (since we have so little to go on), I don't think that Allen made an active decision to become younger. I think it was either forced on him (either the innocence or the side effect of the transfer of Noah memories in a way different from how all the other Noah did it). If you really really want to get out there, I have seen some people speculate that past!Allen was the former Bookman apprentice we've heard about being "lost" before. Being a Bookman could have something to do with it too. If I run with that for just a second, Bookman memory "powers" could interfere with Noah memory so they might have wanted to find a way to erase it. It's not something I really believe in but I thought I'd just bring that in to round things out some more. Only thing I'd say for it is just that it would add some nice connections between Allen and Lavi much like Kanda's past life/rebirth thing is kind of similar to what happened to Allen (who, as I said, I am accepting is the same "person" throughout, as per the 14th's impressions, until we learn otherwise).

REN KOUEN
April 10, 2013, 06:26 PM
they never really say but i imagine mid to late thirtys or early 40s

kannazuki
April 10, 2013, 07:15 PM
Well he made a promise with Nea 35 years ago so he has to be older than that. xD

He would have had to have known about the war and Noah already at the time. Also, he was apparently a member of the Black Order Science Department before he became an exorcist... and even he probably didn't go straight from science guy to General. He was also with Anita's mom well before Anita grew up. I expect they both would have had to be relatively young while he was with them, being courtesans and all. Anita is 27 at her time of death. So I think most people consider him at *least* 50 years old. Some readers think he might be preserving himself using sorcery, meaning he'd be much older than that...

CrossCrow
April 17, 2013, 05:42 AM
hmm, I actually have a theory but it has absolutely no basis. I remember General Yeager and the exorcist that destroyed his akuma student. I wonder if that was actually Cross, as we have seen the innocence does tend to change shape over time as the accomodator's power grows, and the innocence used to destroy the student was a bow. I'm having trouble putting this into words but basically, I wonder if that was General Cross that destroyed Yeager's student all those years ago, and his innocence has been remade into a gun since then. It would create an interesting relationship between Cross and Yeager.

kannazuki
April 17, 2013, 08:59 AM
I'm sorry, but I don't understand your theory. General Yeager became an exorcist because an akuma killed his students. If you mean the akuma that took the form of one of his students, if Yeager didn't use it himself, then it wasn't his innocence. Yet more importantly, what would the purpose of this be, story-wise?

BTW For a while now, I've had a side theory of a small partnership of some sort between Cross and General Klaud (maybe also Tiedoll). Well, more of a hunch, really, since there's nothing much to base it on. But I can't shake the weirdness of their little meeting sipping wine together shortly before he died-- even though she appears to dislike him, and he surely has to be incriminating to associate with. (I'd really like to think she helped him fake his death, or at least that he gave her some important coded information before the death he knew would come.) *edit* Also, it's an interesting coincidence that she had a past as a circus trainer, considering Allen's background. Cross was physically present at the Order (or at least met up with Klaud) after he took in Allen Walker too.

CrossCrow
April 19, 2013, 03:05 AM
I'm sorry, but I don't understand your theory. General Yeager became an exorcist because an akuma killed his students. If you mean the akuma that took the form of one of his students, if Yeager didn't use it himself, then it wasn't his innocence. Yet more importantly, what would the purpose of this be, story-wise?

What i was trying to say is that, I wonder if the exorcist that destroyed the Akuma (that took on the form of one of Yeager's students and killed the other students) was actually General Cross. Also my text about the innocence was a theory based on what we have seen in the manga to support why i believe the mysterious exorcist was General Cross.

Although you are right about this partner ship between the generals, well it seems to be more of a work based relationship, much like the one between; Lavi, Allen, Krory, Miranda, Kanda, Marie, etc (main and secondary protagonists).
Based on what we have seen with the Generals so far, I wont be surprised if they really do have some sort of secret council among themselves, although I had interpreted Klaud's being with Cross the night before he disappeared as the church forcing her to be there to try and stop Cross from running away again, or perhaps she had lost some sort of bet to Cross. Either way I agree with you, she definitely did not appear to be there of her own vocation.

I wasn't aware that Cross returned to the order or met up with any of the other Generals after he apprenticed Allen.

kannazuki
April 19, 2013, 10:12 AM
OK, for some reason I got the impression you meant Cross using Yeager's (eventual) innocence. Thanks for clarifying.

I suppose it's theoretically possible but Kevin Yeager had such a small role, I don't see the significance this connection might have if it exists. Beyond that, have we ever seen an innocence other than Allen's, Lenalee's, and Kanda's change the form it takes when inactive? This kind of innocence behaviour seems to be more of a main character thing so I'd expect it of Lavi's first, then maybe one of the supporting characters (Miranda, Marie, Krory, etc.), but not a side character.

hopeandlight
April 26, 2013, 04:08 AM
cross says"when we first met
he didn't call himself Allen
should have noticed the mistake earlier"
recent chapter show Nea doesn't know how the heck Allen is in younger body than he was 35 years ago
What probably happened was Apocryphos erased all of past Allen's memories

Here are the first few lines of musician's song

"And the boy fell in a deep slumber"
yep, Allen forgot everything...

"the gasping flames within the ashes/one by one...
...rise up and expand into that beloved face"

could be something that shows that innocence (probably crowned clown from the fire looking awfully like the cross embedded in allen's hand) made Allen's body the way it is now
it also says beloved face, instead beloved person or...
I could be looking too much into it, but since Allen was memory-wiped probably by Apo, its just his body that's there

Anyways Cross might have been thinking ," I should have know Apo memory-wiped Allen, d@mmit... he's got me now"
cross might be a skull, which could be an explanation for his long life and his use of the "skull" magic/disguise

if his master is the 14th, that could explain why he doesn't fear earl's control
and he should have some deep connection and know who hold's the memories

i think he knew Allen took the memories of Nea
a kid looked like Allen, kept Nea's memories like Allen said he would, but didn't have Allen's memories
cross was probably really confused didn't really know what was going on until it was too late...

CrossCrow
May 08, 2013, 04:30 AM
I don't know just how relevant that song is to Allen' situation, I was under the impression it was a lullaby sung to Nea and Mana by their mother when they were children, hence why we hear the lyrics when Allen' consciousness is suppressed by Nea and we view a glimpse of Nea' past. Although the lyrics could also, and in my opinion far more likely signal the 14th rising from the ashes.

General Cross being a Skull, that's an interesting concept and completely feasible considering how little we know about the Skulls, (except that humans with strong brains can be converted into Skulls, which Cross supposedly had since there is a picture of him in the science department years ago, I haven't seen this picture though)

Cross did know that Allen was host to the 14th, it is the only reason he made Allen his apprentice after Mana died, he talks to Mother about Allen being the host in chapter 206 "Maria's Sight", I can't remember where I read it but it was mentioned that Nea would make his way back to Mana' side when he reincarnated which is why Cross knew Allen was the 14th to begin with.

Cross' dialog with Apo-chan,
"when we first met he didn't call himself Allen should have noticed the mistake earlier"
definitely has some sort of hidden meaning (in my opinion) since Cross was never in any doubt that Allen was the 14th, and Apo-chan was solely interested in the 14th, I thought this was meant deceive Apo, make it seem like Cross didn't know Allen was the 14th, but that he should have suspected it.

kannazuki
May 12, 2013, 06:34 PM
The song is really difficult to interpret. I had a heck of a time translating it into English for another forum. It's really symbolic. I do think it has to do with Allen but I can't say specifically what. (Lala's song about a "guilty man" or "condemned man" is clearly about Allen, though. We had no idea back then but that concept fits Allen like a glove now.)

I do think there's a strong possibility Apo messed with Allen's memories, but he was also highly traumatized as a child, so that could have worked just fine on its own. Cross' "mistake" is most likely that he should have realized earlier than he did that Red was "Allen," before he was using the name (if you've read the novel chapter "Lost Fragment of Snow"). A huge tragedy might have been prevented if he only went with his instincts on that (he did suspect it enough to ask the boy if he was "Allen" at the time). I think it's one of his few regrets, the way he handled things back then.