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El Samurai Guapo
May 10, 2010, 10:01 PM
http://spd.fotolog.com/photo/61/14/15/vast0l0rde/1226353552930_f.jpg

vs.

http://img.youtube.com/vi/aY30VUleBNY/0.jpg


The rules are simple, they fight somewhere where they'll be uninterrupted, and they can only used whatever abilities they've displayed thus far. In other words, Tousen Kaname does have his hollowfication, and Ichimaru Gin can use his bankai. Everyone else can go as far as shikai.

To even things up a bit though, Aizen Sousuke will not have the hogyouku inside of him, and Ukitake Juushirou will not be impaired by his disease.

kkck
May 10, 2010, 10:11 PM
What about the illusion?

El Samurai Guapo
May 10, 2010, 10:27 PM
What about the illusion?

What illusion? Aizen's zanpakutou abilities? Of course he can use them, that is his shikai after all.

Random101
May 10, 2010, 10:32 PM
Yamamoto goes all out and reduces everyone to ashes. Just to make sure they're dead.

Ignoring that scenario, Kyoraku takes Gin reasonably easily, Ukitake takes Tousen with trouble given I heavily doubt he could use the hollow powers with his bankai (And I'm pretty sure he could reflect whatever the hell it was that his bug for did for massive damage), and it's a damn close fight with Yamamoto and Aizen that probably necessitates the above regardless.

freshseth83
May 10, 2010, 11:17 PM
Yamamoto goes all out and reduces everyone to ashes. Just to make sure they're dead.

Ignoring that scenario, Kyoraku takes Gin reasonably easily, Ukitake takes Tousen with trouble given I heavily doubt he could use the hollow powers with his bankai (And I'm pretty sure he could reflect whatever the hell it was that his bug for did for massive damage), and it's a damn close fight with Yamamoto and Aizen that probably necessitates the above regardless.

Yama gets slashed by Aizen (or Stabbed) as he finds someway through the wall of fire surrounding him (Aizen). After that Yama tanks it and smiles and grabs his hand. Aizen says is it really me you've caught? Yama says no and turns to his rear with Ryujin-Jakka strike one. Aizen gets hit and cut in half with the scorching flames much the same as Allon.

Tousen yells for his Bleach Idol master, and Ukitake takes him out with two quick back to back strikes from his twin swords. Gin smirks and says "Damn, looks like Aizen wasn't that god he said he was." Meanwhile Shunsui see's this and brings out his pot of sake and offers Gin a drink. Gin gives his usual smirk and tries to 'shoot to kill' Shunsui. Shunsui dodges it but his sake pot, isn't so lucky. Shunsui says "you were careless, there's a shadow from my pot" and stabs Gin in the face.

Game over for Aizen and crew.

kkck
May 10, 2010, 11:25 PM
What illusion? Aizen's zanpakutou abilities? Of course he can use them, that is his shikai after all.

I meant, are they a secret to the enemy? Does the enemy start with it on? That sort of thing....

El Samurai Guapo
May 10, 2010, 11:36 PM
I meant, are they a secret to the enemy? Does the enemy start with it on? That sort of thing....

Oh, if you're asking whether or not they start off already affected by KS, then the answer is yes.


Yamamoto goes all out and reduces everyone to ashes. Just to make sure they're dead.

If it was that simple, why didn't he just do that to the three of them when he had the chance, rather than putting them inside a flame barrier?

Random101
May 10, 2010, 11:43 PM
Because he put them inside a flame barrier and thereby bought a valuable opening to allow his forces to take down everyone else before, if all went well (Which it didn't), evacuating before he had to kill everything everywhere in the first place. Because, you know, killing everybody is kinda counter intuitive if there's another, far more reliable method available. IE: Aizen being trapped and unable to do anything for a good period of time.

kkck
May 11, 2010, 12:05 AM
Well, if yama and company start with the illusion on I don't see how they can win. Gins bankai is already hard enough to dodge if you know its coming, I can't imagine shunsui, yama or ukitake seeing it coming if aizen uses the illusion -quite literally-. Aizen would already rape ukitake and kyoraku without the illusion, having 2 sidekicks to exploit it to the fullest would be overkill. Tousen with mask or resurreccion should also be quite a challenge for either kyoraku and ukitake. I would think the good guys do not stand a chance here.

ajc46
May 11, 2010, 12:32 AM
I think Aizen/Tousen/Gin have this fairly easily. Aizen showed that he can take out Shunsui with no problems, so taking outUkitake at the same time shouldn't be too hard. Then the three of them can just focus on Yama. Yama would still be a bit of a challenge, but 3 of them should be able to destroy him with at least one or two still surviving.
When Aizen said that Yama would probably beat him in a one on one fight, he would probably have been including Yama's bankai in his prediction.
With all their their bankais available it might be a different story, but the Yama/Shunsui/Ikitake combo is too limited by only being able to use shikai/some kido.
Also, if they are only able to use moves that they have shown so far, Ukitake has not really done much except reflect a couple of ceros, and his ability shown so far shouldn't work against any of the opponents moves, except maybe that thing that Tousen did to Komamuras bankai.

Xerneas
May 11, 2010, 01:08 AM
As much as I love Yama, just going by what we've seen I'd have to say he and his top students lose. I don't think most people realize how truly RIDICULOUS the Aizen/Gin/Kaname combo is if they actually worked together (which I assume they'll be doing in this fight). Aizen really is retarded for not using them in tandem in FKT, otherwise it would have been over ages ago - oh wait, I guess thats the point so Kubo can stall to the max.

Anyway, KS + Gin's Ban Kai = DEATH. Kaname Ban Kai + Gin Shi Kai/Ban Kai = DEATH. KS + Kaname who is immune = DEATH. Seriously guys its really funny how they are perfect teammates and only work together one single time - against Barragan. None of these combos can be guarded against.

Shunsui and Ukitake are utterly useless in this fight (I love them but I'm being objective). The only reason their team even has any kind of chance is Yama-jii, due to RJ spammage. Its powers are so incredible that he could potentially fry Gin/Kaname from afar without guarding himself. However, he would somehow have to make sure that its the real Gin/Kaname he's dispatching, plus such spammage would most likely take out his two team-mates as well, leaving him vs Aizen. And even though he's a lot stronger than Aizen, KS evens out the odds somewhat. So yeah, chances are slim for his team.

Random101
May 11, 2010, 01:15 AM
By sheer virtue of how Aizen handled this war, I'd assume that even though that's a plausible assessment, I highly doubt he'd bother working with the two of them. Seriously, this 'war' would have been over the instant he crossed over to FKT were he even trying. Simply KS then cut everyone's head off. Or get Gin to do it. Or, to be extra sure, have Barragon release and Respiera them all. That's just how he rolls.

Xerneas
May 11, 2010, 01:24 AM
By sheer virtue of how Aizen handled this war, I'd assume that even though that's a plausible assessment, I highly doubt he'd bother working with the two of them. Seriously, this 'war' would have been over the instant he crossed over to FKT were he even trying. Simply KS then cut everyone's head off. Or get Gin to do it. Or, to be extra sure, have Barragon release and Respiera them all. That's just how he rolls.


Yup. Kubo made him like that on purpose to create a stall-fest, generating more $$$$. The impression I got from the topic is that this is a team fight. If is not though then yeah, Gin and Kaname get dispatched with a breath by Yama. Aizen vs Yama and those other two together will be very problematic for him cause he needs ALL of his attention on the old man if he is to pull off a win. If they distract him (however briefly), he won't be pulling a Momo stunt - Yama will kill his ass.

EDIT: So its simple. If the bad guys use teamwork they win, if not they lose. Pretty much the moral of the whole manga. The Espada would have been way better if they were a real team.

El Samurai Guapo
May 11, 2010, 03:02 AM
As much as I love Yama, just going by what we've seen I'd have to say he and his top students lose. I don't think most people realize how truly RIDICULOUS the Aizen/Gin/Kaname combo is if they actually worked together (which I assume they'll be doing in this fight). Aizen really is retarded for not using them in tandem in FKT, otherwise it would have been over ages ago - oh wait, I guess thats the point so Kubo can stall to the max.

Anyway, KS + Gin's Ban Kai = DEATH. Kaname Ban Kai + Gin Shi Kai/Ban Kai = DEATH. KS + Kaname who is immune = DEATH. Seriously guys its really funny how they are perfect teammates and only work together one single time - against Barragan. None of these combos can be guarded against.

Shunsui and Ukitake are utterly useless in this fight (I love them but I'm being objective). The only reason their team even has any kind of chance is Yama-jii, due to RJ spammage. Its powers are so incredible that he could potentially fry Gin/Kaname from afar without guarding himself. However, he would somehow have to make sure that its the real Gin/Kaname he's dispatching, plus such spammage would most likely take out his two team-mates as well, leaving him vs Aizen. And even though he's a lot stronger than Aizen, KS evens out the odds somewhat. So yeah, chances are slim for his team.

You're right, I hadn't even thought about the prospect of Kaname's bankai working in conjuction with Gin's. The two of them could easily handle Shunsui and Juushirou if they cooperate. Kaname places them both inside his bankai dome, then exits it, Gin then cuts the entire thing in half (horizontally).

Some people say that Kaname wouldn't be able to use bankai with his mask together either, which sounds like BS to me. I see no reason why he wouldn't be able too, therefore between his hax bankai, his several times speed and strength increase from the mask, and HSR, Kaname should be able to handle Shunsui & Juushirou on his own really. Especially if they're just limited to shikai. Adding the tensai Gin there is just insurance.

AlB
May 11, 2010, 05:10 AM
Arceus and El Samurai Guapo pretty much said everything: Tousen + Gin combo is practically god-mode team in entire bleach universe so far. who could possibly stand against them? (except yama and aizen of course) hell even aizen would lose against them!!!! tousen can sense him!

while Aizen keeps yama in delusion that he is frying Gin and kaname, they will simply go [S]batshit[S] bankai on shunsui and juushiro and off them in a single moment. though it is true that their agility will be decreased (gin must be near kaname to kep his hand on suzumushi's handle) it won't matter since shunsui and juushiro will be rid of senses. after that, I believe even Yama won't be able to stand against aizen, tousen and gin.

btw, Shunsui won't be able to hide in the shadow since there won't be any shadows in Kaname's bankai dome!!! and I don't think that his and juu's bankais will make any difference in such circumstances
[hr]


Ignoring that scenario, Kyoraku takes Gin reasonably easily

and what makes you think that might I ask, dismissing the precedent of fanboyism :amuse

Random101
May 11, 2010, 09:41 AM
Some people say that Kaname wouldn't be able to use bankai with his mask together either, which sounds like BS to me. I see no reason why he wouldn't be able too
Not his mask, his bug state. As his sword vanishes when he uses it, using the two together is highly unlikely. This is of course assuming that his sword hasn't been altered to be like an arrancar's, as in it can't use his shinigami powers anymore, but though that's a possibility it's definitely an arguable one.

Similarly Gin's Bankai is medicore at best. I say Kyoraku takes him reasonably easily because, frankly, if he can avoid mass ceros like that, which have a massive range of attack, what amounts to a gun with such a minimal danger zone is simple. Granted Gin could get lucky and nail something vital, but his odds don't appear much higher than 30. This is of course assuming they don't work together, but given they don't do that regardless that's a reasonable assumption in the first place.

Further Tousen's bankai is ALL shadow, so wat?

hakuthehedgehog
May 11, 2010, 10:14 AM
I think Yamamoto can just use bankai and kill everyone while Kyoraru and Ukitake barely survive because of Ukitake's bankai/shikai.

Gran Maestro
May 11, 2010, 10:25 AM
This is a hard one and Yamamoto is not exactly a team player but if he goes all out, I guess his team wins. (he will be the only one standing though) If he doesn't go all out to keep his students out of harm's way, then IMO Aizen's team has better chances because their abilities are more suited for teamwork.

AlB
May 11, 2010, 10:44 AM
Not his mask, his bug state. As his sword vanishes when he uses it, using the two together is highly unlikely. This is of course assuming that his sword hasn't been altered to be like an arrancar's, as in it can't use his shinigami powers anymore, but though that's a possibility it's definitely an arguable one.

Further Tousen's bankai is ALL shadow, so wat?

Tousen dons mask without going bug-state and uses bankai i don't see any problem. plus:

what is shadow?

it is that black thing that is cast on eart/floor/whatever from objects as a result of their exposure to light. light is essential to the existence of shadows. tousen's bankai is simply complete darkness not shadow itself. there's no light, therefore shadow doesn't exist there.

Raizen
May 11, 2010, 10:53 AM
Having yama's team under KS at teh beginning of the fight gives Aizen's team a huge advantage. But then again, if yama's team was not under KS, they wouold utterly rape Aizen's team.

Even under KS, the factor of Yama is still relevant. He himself could probably take on all 3 of them. Aizen won't be finishing off shunsui and uki easily since there will be no hitsugaya distraction. Aizen needed that distraction to take advantage of to get shunsui. In this fight, everyone on yama's team is level headed and extremely skilled.

A combo of gin and tousen won't be that easy to pull off. Do u really think shunsui or uki would just stand there while tousen's bankai starts forming? They are not like ken, they will go in for the kill, especially shunsui. Even w/ KS, yama's team will still have a great chance of winning

Random101
May 11, 2010, 11:03 AM
it is that black thing that is cast on eart/floor/whatever from objects as a result of their exposure to light. light is essential to the existence of shadows. tousen's bankai is simply complete darkness not shadow itself. there's no light, therefore shadow doesn't exist there.
Shadow is absence of light due to light being blocked from a set path. Guess what's going on in the dome? Light's being blocked from a set path. Whether or not it works, due to it not being Tousen's shadow, is up for grabs sure depending on your opinion, but it goes without saying that there's still viable ways for it to work in there.

El Samurai Guapo
May 11, 2010, 11:16 AM
Not his mask, his bug state. As his sword vanishes when he uses it, using the two together is highly unlikely. This is of course assuming that his sword hasn't been altered to be like an arrancar's, as in it can't use his shinigami powers anymore, but though that's a possibility it's definitely an arguable one.

Ahh, well who cares about his bug state. As I've said before bankai + mask is far better. Especially in Kaname's case since he has a really hax bankai to begin with. Adding the mask will give him a tremendous stat boost in all areas, and give him high speed regeneration. That makes him easily one of the most powerful characters in bleach. Like AIB said, Kaname would be a huge threat, and could probably even take on Aizen.

I don't know if I'd call Gin's bankai mediocre. Gin is obviously capable of controlling the speed at which he extends and retracts kami shini no yari, and I don't believe he has tried to kill Ichigo yet.

kkck
May 11, 2010, 11:44 AM
I think aizen's illusion + gins bankai is enough to kill the good guys without them even fighting back. Once that is done to stab yama in the head, shunsui and ukitake are even easier -that is, assuming they intend on doing any form of teamwork-..

Random101
May 11, 2010, 11:46 AM
It's a gun, mainly good for either lucky shots to vital areas (Of which in bleach there is only one) or sneak attacks. Mediocre at best in that regard, and that it can be blocked and reacted to regardless cuts it's danger level considerably. Similarly he hasn't shown any ability to control the speed. If he did, wouldn't he have, you know, done so to keep Ichigo from discovering it so easily?

Raizen
May 11, 2010, 12:09 PM
@kkck, if gin could do it that easily with aizen, then there was no point in getting the espadas, no point modifying WW to counter yama, no point in running from SS, no point in splitting up the SS forces, etc.

The fight will definitely not be like that

Galbert-Kun
May 11, 2010, 01:05 PM
Los Nueve Aspectos v. Daifuhabanrai, WHO YA GOT?

Hystzen
May 11, 2010, 01:57 PM
gins bankai speed is redonculus it is not mediocre bankai..still this is aizens team win gin and aizen keep them busy while tousen goes bankai then gin goes sits down drinks tea while tousen and aizen mop up.

the fact they under ks helps or aizen would get butchered.

freshseth83
May 11, 2010, 05:20 PM
You think Ichigo keeping up with Gin's sword speed and length is remarkable? Ichigo should be considered slow against the likes of Shunsui and Ukitake. That said and the point that Shunsui was dodging cero's shooting at him like bullets makes for a case that Gin's bankai wouldn't be so effective against these two. So he's not very good of a candidate for taking them out. Tousen said his power was greater than Bankai, and deemed a mask. When have we seen anyone besides Ichigo use Bankai plus a mask? Never. So until that happens were to assume he can only use one or the other. Either way, Tousen got trashed in both forms. The Bankai form against Zaraki, overwhelming reiatsu can seemingly get rid of his lame excuse for a bankai. On top of that, Shunsui can still say the color game, he doesn't need to see in order to remember what colors Tousen was wearing. And Tousen not knowing what colors even are can only guess as to what color Shunsui is wearing. Regardless he'd lose in my opinion. Who's to say these guys will even let them use Bankai? Whats sad is that they have to use Bankai when guys like Shunsui Ukitake and Yama use SHIKAI! Hell, they weren't even bothered with releasing their damn shikai until the PRIMERA RELEASED. Other captains using Bankai against fraccions and these two using SHIKAI on the Primera goes a long way in telling the difference in strength. Aizen's KS works on people but the only time it was seen beating Shunsui was when Hitsugaya ran out of the formation the captains had. Ukitake isn't a stupid little kid with a hot head for Aizen or any of these characters. And I'm sure with the Kido knowledge he knows he could easily bind Tousen or Gin. He might be able to do it against Aizen if they can determine whether he's real or not. Shunsui hits and moves. Standing still is what Aizen likes to do. Because he thinks he's god and can tank hits.

Yama alone could torch all three of them if he wanted to. Weve seen him surround them with fire before. Whats reason to believe he couldn't do it again and this time step it up a few notches and have the fire close in on all three of them at once and burn them to ashes?

DEATHBOTT
May 11, 2010, 10:32 PM
You think Ichigo keeping up with Gin's sword speed and length is remarkable? Ichigo should be considered slow against the likes of Shunsui and Ukitake. That said and the point that Shunsui was dodging cero's shooting at him like bullets makes for a case that Gin's bankai wouldn't be so effective against these two. So he's not very good of a candidate for taking them out. Tousen said his power was greater than Bankai, and deemed a mask. When have we seen anyone besides Ichigo use Bankai plus a mask? Never. So until that happens were to assume he can only use one or the other. Either way, Tousen got trashed in both forms. The Bankai form against Zaraki, overwhelming reiatsu can seemingly get rid of his lame excuse for a bankai. On top of that, Shunsui can still say the color game, he doesn't need to see in order to remember what colors Tousen was wearing. And Tousen not knowing what colors even are can only guess as to what color Shunsui is wearing. Regardless he'd lose in my opinion. Who's to say these guys will even let them use Bankai? Whats sad is that they have to use Bankai when guys like Shunsui Ukitake and Yama use SHIKAI! Hell, they weren't even bothered with releasing their damn shikai until the PRIMERA RELEASED. Other captains using Bankai against fraccions and these two using SHIKAI on the Primera goes a long way in telling the difference in strength. Aizen's KS works on people but the only time it was seen beating Shunsui was when Hitsugaya ran out of the formation the captains had. Ukitake isn't a stupid little kid with a hot head for Aizen or any of these characters. And I'm sure with the Kido knowledge he knows he could easily bind Tousen or Gin. He might be able to do it against Aizen if they can determine whether he's real or not. Shunsui hits and moves. Standing still is what Aizen likes to do. Because he thinks he's god and can tank hits.

Yama alone could torch all three of them if he wanted to. Weve seen him surround them with fire before. Whats reason to believe he couldn't do it again and this time step it up a few notches and have the fire close in on all three of them at once and burn them to ashes?

we have seen kensie, lisa and hiori use shikai with mask. i dont see why they couldnt use bankai with a mask. we havnt seen shunsui use other games but you assume he can. tousan should be able to use mask and bankai but not ressurecion and bankai.

kkck
May 11, 2010, 10:51 PM
I am actually not that sure whether kanane could use shikai or bankai in his new form. Resurreccion and shikai/bankai are basically eqivalents, versions of shinigami powers. If he gained resurreccion IMO it is very likely he lost his other release abilities. Not that he needed them if he had a mask and a resurreccion on top of that.

Random101
May 11, 2010, 11:09 PM
That in essence. Tousen since he appeared oddly used absolutely 0 of his swords defined abilities since he gained hollow powers. I think the point of that was that in becoming more hollow he literally cast away his shinigami side. Admittedly it can't be proven, but the implications are certainly there. Especially if we buy that Orb tripe, which admittedly I don't as it worked perfectly find as it was originally.

freshseth83
May 12, 2010, 01:31 AM
Like I said before, where in the manga have you seen anyone besides Ichigo use Bankai with the mask? It's non-existent. Shikai and mask yes, but not Bankai. Kensei went Bankai, and he didn't have his mask on. Only Ichigo is shown to be able to do this. That's why I said if we look at that, it's like I said. Tousen didn't use Bankai with his mask. He didn't even use Shikai. He went ressurecion. The vizoreds, they don't go Bankai and use mask together. Weve never seen it. I think right now, only Ichigo is capable of it.

Raizen
May 12, 2010, 12:31 PM
we have seen kensie, lisa and hiori use shikai with mask. i dont see why they couldnt use bankai with a mask. we havnt seen shunsui use other games but you assume he can. tousan should be able to use mask and bankai but not ressurecion and bankai.
First off, u assume that lisa and hiyori can use bankai. That is false

Secondly, a bankai is the ultimate form of a shinigami while the hollow or mask is the form of the inner hollow. Unlike ichigo whose hollow was born the same time his shinigami was, the vizard gained their hollow side at another time than their shinigami powers. So technically, the vizards shouldn't be able to use both bankai and hollow powers. It is too hard to balance the 2. Ichigo can b/c zangetsu and hichigo are one in teh same. At least that is how i see it

Even if tousen uses bankai, how will he hit something he can't see, i mean color. Shunsui can easily call the color game or the shadow game and it would negate tousen's bankai

DEATHBOTT
May 15, 2010, 04:36 AM
First off, u assume that lisa and hiyori can use bankai. That is false

Secondly, a bankai is the ultimate form of a shinigami while the hollow or mask is the form of the inner hollow. Unlike ichigo whose hollow was born the same time his shinigami was, the vizard gained their hollow side at another time than their shinigami powers. So technically, the vizards shouldn't be able to use both bankai and hollow powers. It is too hard to balance the 2. Ichigo can b/c zangetsu and hichigo are one in teh same. At least that is how i see it

Even if tousen uses bankai, how will he hit something he can't see, i mean color. Shunsui can easily call the color game or the shadow game and it would negate tousen's bankai

my bad i dont think they can, i just ment if they could i think it would be just like going shikai with their mask on.

good point about useing the colour game though, but if tousn went for the kill straight away i doubt shunsui would be able to react.

freshseth83
May 15, 2010, 05:10 AM
thing is tousen couldn't beat Kenpachi who is so much slower than Shunsui, what makes you think he'll be able to go for the kill?

DEATHBOTT
May 15, 2010, 05:53 AM
thing is tousen couldn't beat Kenpachi who is so much slower than Shunsui, what makes you think he'll be able to go for the kill?
tousan didnt go for the kill with kenpachi thats why i said if he goes for the kill straight up.

Hystzen
May 15, 2010, 06:49 AM
thing is tousen couldn't beat Kenpachi who is so much slower than Shunsui, what makes you think he'll be able to go for the kill?

kenpachi is a beast of pure SP even a masked tousen prob would lose..a no eyepatch using kendo could destroy most of the cast of bleach 1 on 1.

i assume if someone as well 'special' as ichigo can use mask and bankai can safely assume the vizards or any masked shinigami can. even then with the SS under KS this goes to hax aizen team

freshseth83
May 17, 2010, 03:33 AM
when has someone else besides Ichigo use mask AND bankai? Even Tousen said himself he has a power greater than Bankai, and put on his mask. Seems to me he doesn't have Bankai anymore in trade for his hollow powers. Ichigo was both from the beginning. Not Shinigami adding Hollow powers. He naturally has hollow powers and shinigami powers.

Tousen is weak, he lost to a VC because he found 'sight'. That's lousy. If he did that against a captain like Shunsui or Juushiro, he'd be dead just as easily. Gin isn't any more of a match for Ichigo let alone one of these guys. It's an easy thing to assume just because someone has a mask he's stronger. But weve seen two guys with mask that have had that power longer than Tousen and lose to Stark, then Shunsui go in and win by himself. No matter how you put it Shunsui is greater than two Masked Captains. To say Tousen could beat him is ridiculous. Even with his lame Bankai it can be defeated with Reiatsu. Do you think Shunsui and Juushiro have weaker Reiatsu than Tousen? That's a laugh as well.

Raizen
May 17, 2010, 02:30 PM
my bad i dont think they can, i just ment if they could i think it would be just like going shikai with their mask on.

good point about useing the colour game though, but if tousn went for the kill straight away i doubt shunsui would be able to react.
I don't think shikai and mask is the equivalent of a bankai. That is far from it. As i have said, bankai is pure shinigami power while shikai and mask is a mix between incomplete hollow and shinigami powers. I'd take the pure one anyday.

Shunsui has shown speed much greater than anything tousen has shown. If anything, it will be shunsui that speedblitz tousen

AlB
May 18, 2010, 03:15 PM
Shunsui has shown speed much greater than anything tousen has shown. If anything, it will be shunsui that speedblitz tousen

considering the fact that he won't be able to see, sniff or hear... I don't think so
[hr]


Tousen is weak, he lost to a VC because he found 'sight'. That's lousy.

that's not lousy, that's pretty realistic (and tragic)

the guy lived for hundreds of years without an ability to see. it was his dream, lifelong dream. when he opened his eyes for the first time in his long life he was completely enthralled by the sight of of world around him. imagine for a moment, what it would be like for you to be able to see the sky, the sun, the world, people around you that you have always percieved as reiatsu sources for the first time in centuries (god save you of course). tousen was literally drunk with this experience. he dulled all his other senses... and suffered the consequences.

freshseth83
May 18, 2010, 03:59 PM
If tousen can even use Bankai. He seemingly gave it up for his hollow powers. Again, there has been no indication of anyone being able to use mask and bankai besides ichigo. In other words, Tousen with that sight will be a let down, again.

WhisperPL
May 18, 2010, 04:17 PM
A fight between shinigami is a battle of reaitsu - like Aizen said. So Yama > Aizen - like Aizen Said. And in my opinion comparing Shinsui & Ukitake to Tousen or Gin is just ridiculous...

El Samurai Guapo
May 18, 2010, 04:26 PM
And in my opinion comparing Shinsui & Ukitake to Tousen or Gin is just ridiculous...

It's ridiculous alright....because Kaname was a hybrid captian level shinigami so naturally he easily eclipsed mere pure shinigami captains, and Gin is a tensai and Aizen's right hand man naturally he's going to be better than two unimportant side character captains.

WhisperPL
May 18, 2010, 04:35 PM
You missunderstand me:P Tousen or Gin are no match for Shinsui or Ukitake - if you read the manga you should know why.

Raizen
May 18, 2010, 05:16 PM
considering the fact that he won't be able to see, sniff or hear... I don't think so
<hr noshade size="1">
Tousen's bankai takes time to activate as seen here
http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/146/07/
and here
http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/146/08/
That is more than enough time for someone as fast as shunsui to attack tousen. Or even moreso, he can just escape the sphere
You act as if shunsui will wait around for tousen to make the first move.
[hr]

It's ridiculous alright....because Kaname was a hybrid captian level shinigami so naturally he easily eclipsed mere pure shinigami captains, and Gin is a tensai and Aizen's right hand man naturally he's going to be better than two unimportant side character captains.
"eclipsed mere pure shinigami captains", so he is stronger than yamamoto? Aizen? I don't think so. Again, everyone and everything has limits. Just b/c he exceeded and push over his shinigami limits does not make him stronger than someone with just pure shinigami limits.

It is nothing but an assumption

Young Aizen
May 18, 2010, 05:19 PM
Tousen's bankai takes time to activate as seen here
http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/146/07/
and here
http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/146/08/
That is more than enough time for someone as fast as shunsui to attack tousen. Or even moreso, he can just escape the sphere
You act as if shunsui will wait around for tousen to make the first move.
<hr noshade size="1">



Considering that they're already under Aizen's KS time wouldn't be a factor for tousen to prepare his bankai.

Raizen
May 18, 2010, 05:23 PM
Would that work though? Both aizen and tousen can control the senses. so which ability dominates teh other?
And even with illusions, it require team effort, a plan, and tousen not dying either from shunsui uki or yama

freshseth83
May 18, 2010, 05:27 PM
considering they are under KS, it wouldn't matter. Kyoraku and Ukitake are miles ahead of Kaname Tousen. He's a weakling that Aizen only held onto because he was immune to KS, and was used as a puppet for his experiments. Tousen's resolve was written well, but his story was pretty lame. He wanted revenge on SS so he leaves with selfish Aizen? He was being selfish himself. The thing I'm getting at is Tousen wasn't a very strong guy to begin with. And weve seen two captain level characters with hollow powers fail where Shunsui alone succeeded. Why is it everyone forgets this? People like to think Tousen is super strong because he had a ressureccion? So what? All the espada did as well, and lost. Tousen, lost. Not to a captain, but a VC who he was supposed to be already superior to.

Face it, Tousen is weak, and Gin as cool as he is doesn't seem to be much stronger.

WhisperPL
May 18, 2010, 05:30 PM
Hmm i think Ichigo with his new hollow mask still have no chance with Ulluqiora (full power) and now Ichi is fighting with Gin with no big problem.Shinsui beat Primera Espada Just with Shi Kai. Someone see the difference ?

Young Aizen
May 18, 2010, 05:38 PM
considering they are under KS, it wouldn't matter. Kyoraku and Ukitake are miles ahead of Kaname Tousen. He's a weakling that Aizen only held onto because he was immune to KS, and was used as a puppet for his experiments. Tousen's resolve was written well, but his story was pretty lame. He wanted revenge on SS so he leaves with selfish Aizen? He was being selfish himself. The thing I'm getting at is Tousen wasn't a very strong guy to begin with. And weve seen two captain level characters with hollow powers fail where Shunsui alone succeeded. Why is it everyone forgets this? People like to think Tousen is super strong because he had a ressureccion? So what? All the espada did as well, and lost. Tousen, lost. Not to a captain, but a VC who he was supposed to be already superior to.

Face it, Tousen is weak, and Gin as cool as he is doesn't seem to be much stronger.

Honestly I haven't a damn thing that puts ukitake above tousen..
I mean he got his heart ripped out by a retard. You just seem to dislike him. And in both losses that tousen took he was a victim of circumstances. Dude got shanked in the HEAD. The ultimate weak spot for any living thing. Doesn't matter how strong you are when something like that happens. And by now i thought people would realize that the battles in bleach are more about abilities than who's stronger unless you're just THAT much stronger. Tousen is no where near the strongest shinigami but by no means is he weak.

Face it... shunsui and ukitake aren't as strong as you think they are... cause if they were then they would still be standing.

WhisperPL
May 18, 2010, 05:50 PM
You have right Young Aizen. But i think they are strong enough to beat Gin or Tousen Just with Shi Kai.

Gran Maestro
May 18, 2010, 05:54 PM
"eclipsed mere pure shinigami captains", so he is stronger than yamamoto? Aizen? I don't think so.

Why not? Hiyori is a hybrid who has probably improved herself to be captain class in the past 100 years, therefore she is stronger than a pure shinigami like Yamamoto. Rukia is a very important character, so she is also stronger than a side character like Yamamoto. This is really funny. :D :D :D

Joke aside, Tousen and Gin stand a chance against Shunsui & Ukitake only because we didn't see the full abilities of Shunsui & Ukitake yet. In an all-out battle Shunsui & Ukitake would defeat Gin & Tousen without much effort. Aizen's group has a chance if and only if they display excellent teamwork but then Yamamoto may decide to go all out and destroy them for good.

Raizen
May 18, 2010, 05:54 PM
Honestly I haven't a damn thing that puts ukitake above tousen..
I mean he got his heart ripped out by a retard. You just seem to dislike him. And in both losses that tousen took he was a victim of circumstances. Dude got shanked in the HEAD. The ultimate weak spot for any living thing. Doesn't matter how strong you are when something like that happens. And by now i thought people would realize that the battles in bleach are more about abilities than who's stronger unless you're just THAT much stronger. Tousen is no where near the strongest shinigami but by no means is he weak.

Face it... shunsui and ukitake aren't as strong as you think they are... cause if they were then they would still be standing.
Tousen got defeated by eyepatch kenpachi! Meaning a kenpachi with only a fraction of his real power.
Hisagi also trapped tousen with his shikai, but got beat b/c he took it easy on tousen.

And at the bolded part, wouldn't that statement apply to tousen too? He actually got killed.

Young Aizen
May 18, 2010, 05:55 PM
You have right Young Aizen. But i think they are strong enough to beat Gin or Tousen Just with Shi Kai.
I believe shunsui could beat them with his shikai if he catches them... but ukitake? naah. And im pretty sure Gin's bankai would totally throw them off guard. Resulting in someone injured or worse.

Raizen
May 18, 2010, 05:57 PM
I believe shunsui could beat them with his shikai if he catches them... but ukitake? naah. And im pretty sure Gin's bankai would totally throw them off guard. Resulting in someone injured or worse.
If someone as young and inexperienced as ichigo can keep up with gin then someone like shunsui and uki can. Furthermore, shunsui has shown amazing speed

Young Aizen
May 18, 2010, 05:59 PM
Tousen got defeated by eyepatch kenpachi! Meaning a kenpachi with only a fraction of his real power.
Hisagi also trapped tousen with his shikai, but got beat b/c he took it easy on tousen.

And at the bolded part, wouldn't that statement apply to tousen too? He actually got killed.

Hold so you're telling me if Kenpachi literally grabbed ukitake's/shunsui's sword and slashed them diagonally at point blank range they wouldn't be boned?? and yes it does apply to tousen.. hence they're all down.
[hr]

If someone as young and inexperienced as ichigo can keep up with gin then someone like shunsui and uki can. Furthermore, shunsui has shown amazing speed

Shunsui's fast..as hell... but not as fast as ichigo.

Raizen
May 18, 2010, 06:08 PM
Hold so you're telling me if Kenpachi literally grabbed ukitake's/shunsui's sword and slashed them diagonally at point blank range they wouldn't be boned?? and yes it does apply to tousen.. hence they're all down.
<hr noshade size="1">

Shunsui's fast..as hell... but not as fast as ichigo.
I personally do not believe ken can catch shunsui's or ulqui's attacks like he did tousen. Note that ken had to use eyepatch AND kendo to beat noitora, the 5th espada while shunsui took on released #1 espada with just his shikai. HUGE difference in power.

No, the ichigo here has not display the speed he has shown in SS. There are no afterimages or anything

Young Aizen
May 18, 2010, 06:17 PM
I personally do not believe ken can catch shunsui's or ulqui's attacks like he did tousen. Note that ken had to use eyepatch AND kendo to beat noitora, the 5th espada while shunsui took on released #1 espada with just his shikai. HUGE difference in power.

No, the ichigo here has not display the speed he has shown in SS. There are no afterimages or anything
Nnoitra had the toughest hierro out of all the espada(including primera) so of course he needed more power.

Raizen
May 18, 2010, 06:21 PM
Nnoitra had the toughest hierro out of all the espada(including primera) so of course he needed more power.
WHAT?! As stated in bleach, your life and strength is determined by your SP. since starks was much higher than noitora, his SP is much greater than noitora. Furthermore, ALL espadas have hierro. That is why youruichi was hurt by yammi's skin, ulqui could take ichigo's bankai with his hand, and starks could take direct hits form vizards without a single scratch.

ken using his eyepatch and trump card against the 5th espada shows that in comparison, he pales to shunsui. Yet ken still owned tousen like he was an amateur

Young Aizen
May 18, 2010, 06:27 PM
WHAT?! As stated in bleach, your life and strength is determined by your SP. since starks was much higher than noitora, his SP is much greater than noitora. Furthermore, ALL espadas have hierro. That is why youruichi was hurt by yammi's skin, ulqui could take ichigo's bankai with his hand, and starks could take direct hits form vizards without a single scratch.

ken using his eyepatch and trump card against the 5th espada shows that in comparison, he pales to shunsui. Yet ken still owned tousen like he was an amateur

So nnoitra's lying about having the toughest hierro then?
And who said all the espada didn't have hierro? I'm only saying his was the toughest which came from his mouth. and i believe had shunsui been that same situation he'd be owned too. Thats only my opinion just as starrk having harder hierro is yours...

Raizen
May 18, 2010, 06:35 PM
So nnoitra's lying about having the toughest hierro then?
And who said all the espada didn't have hierro? I'm only saying his was the toughest which came from his mouth. and i believe had shunsui been that same situation he'd be owned too. Thats only my opinion just as starrk having harder hierro is yours...
Noitora also stated that he was the strongest espada. is that true? :blink

I didn't say that starks had tougher hierro. My point was that the espadas are ranked based on power. Are u saying that shunsui can't cut and beat noitora even though he owned starks? The point was comparing the feats. based on feats, shunsui is much stronger than even someone like ken, the same ken that didn't need to use full power to defeat tousen.

And what situation are u talking about? Shunsui is more experienced and skilled. His blade won't be caught by ken. Let's say hypothetically speaking one of them was caught, he has another sword, and his left strike is even faster and more lethal than his right one

WhisperPL
May 18, 2010, 06:40 PM
When stark come a took orihime back to aizen ken and Ichi...hmm
http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-chapter-314-page-17.html
and next
http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-chapter-314-page-18.html
I think Stark dont kill them in 5 sec. only because he is so lazy bastard, Ken defeat tousen but he was unable even to see when Stark vanish. This is the difference of power

Pavitre
May 18, 2010, 07:20 PM
umm, just a suggestion, but it would be better not to take kenpachi as a measuring rod for comparison because kenpachi like ichigo increases at a big rate in combat areas albeit not as fast as ichi, still his adaptability is something unpredictable in a long stretched fight

freshseth83
May 18, 2010, 08:32 PM
speed is a big deal with Kenpachi, but he can adapt, to me he is a wildcard and it's hard to judge his strength. He enjoys fighting so he prolongs things. If he wanted to end things quickly he probably could.

There is a difference of power between him and Shunsui though. Maybe he has crude and huge amounts of reiatsu, but to call him as skilled as Shunsui, I don't think that point can be made. Tousen didn't fight against Ken-chan with his hollow form, but he did fight against a VC who beat him. I think it's a bad judgement to say he'd give Shunsui or Juushiro a run for their money. Gin in my opinion is the same. He has a fast and long bankai and all, but we seen how fast Shunsui was when he was dodging endless ceros from Starrk until Juushiro stepped in. My idea was that Juushiro knew Shunsui and his swords weren't 'warmed up' yet, or 'in the mood' so he stepped in.

El Samurai Guapo
May 18, 2010, 09:38 PM
Saying that Kenpachi is not as strong or skilled as Shunsui is in itself a big assumption. Kenpachi was capable of one-shotting Nnoitora from the beginning, had he so desired. If Kenpachi fought seriously from the get-go against someone like Starrk, who's to say he wouldn't win? He's sure doing a number on an espada that's even stronger that Starrk right now.

Even if Shunsui is stronger than Kenpachi, the difference ought to be negligible in my opinion.

freshseth83
May 19, 2010, 12:26 AM
So you think #5 is stronger than #1? And by saying that Aizen doesn't know his espada? I think you're mistaken. Shunsui might not have super amounts of reiatsu stored up, but his swordsmanship can be said to match or better Zaraki. Of course there is a big if, but just from what weve seen Shunsui incorporates more than just swordsmanship and speed, but also the skills in foresight and knowledge of his opponents abilities. Can't say Zaraki has that.

AlB
May 19, 2010, 03:01 AM
If tousen can even use Bankai. He seemingly gave it up for his hollow powers. Again, there has been no indication of anyone being able to use mask and bankai besides ichigo. In other words, Tousen with that sight will be a let down, again.

here we go again. :notrust
unless you have any proof to back up this mad theory then I might consider it, otherwise let's discuss facts please

Gran Maestro
May 19, 2010, 05:18 AM
Kenpachi went all-out to defeat #5 Nnoitra, Shunsui didn't go all-out to defeat #1 Stark. If there's a negligible difference between Shunsui and Kenpachi, then there's a negligible difference between every character in Bleach. Stark's speed seemed to be too much for Ichigo and Kenpachi (http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/313/16/). The difference between Shunsui and Kenpachi seems to be like night and day. Kenpachi is yet to face the real power of espada #0 and the fight will be Yammy vs Byakuya & Kenpachi which suggests Yammy is too strong for Kenpachi alone. Kenpachi stands a chance against Shunsui if and only if he achieves bankai.

I sense resentment in some people who are angry at the fact that Kubo gave better feats and hype to characters whom they don't like over the characters they like. The unavoidable result of the resentment is to stray from the path of logic more and more in an effort to make a character look bad but we all are reading the same manga and nobody can fool anybody. Unreasonable arguments like "Kenpachi is on par with Shunsui" only shows the victory of someone's resentment over his common sense.

The only people who topped Shunsui's feat of defeating primera with shikai are Yamamoto and Aizen. Combined with Yamamoto's words which is also manga evidence (for those who don't deny the manga they read and discuss), we can say Shunsui is considerably stronger than the majority of captain-class people in Bleach. He can certainly hold his own against Gin's bankai or Tousen's resurreccion with shikai (and possibly defeat them). If it was Shunsui's bankai vs Gin or Tousen, I would say "flawless victory".

People just don't see how strong Shunsui & Ukitake duo is. They survived against a serious Yamamoto's shikai with their shikai. Yamamoto destroyed WW with his bare hands. WW defeated Kensei's bankai. Anybody who is capable of deductive reasoning can see that "Shunsui & Ukitake (even just with shikai) can hold their own against Gin & Tousen" is a valid assumption. Favouritism can't disprove logic. Adding Yamamoto and Aizen only makes things worse for Aizen's group.

freshseth83
May 19, 2010, 05:28 AM
here we go again. :notrust
unless you have any proof to back up this mad theory then I might consider it, otherwise let's discuss facts please

what facts do you have to base your lame theory that someone can use Bankai and mask? Ichigo? He's the ONLY one weve seen use Bankai and mask. If you have PROOF OTHERWISE I suggest you post it. Because according to Tousen he said he has a power greater than bankai, which was him using hollowfication. You must be confused or you don't read bleach. But to come on here and say that I'm coming up with theories when you have no proof that anyone besides Ichigo can use Bankai and mask, is just lame and makes you look foolish, questioning something weve never seen.

I agree with you Gran. It seems some people like to take what they SEE in the manga and not what they READ. Pictures are worth a thousand words, in real life. But, this isn't real life, this is a STORY. You READ a story. Bleach isn't a picture book. People need to realize the difference in strength to someone like Tousen and Gin to Shunsui and Juushiro. Two guys who have been captain at most 50-100 years, compared to guys who have been captain for at least 200+ years. There is no comparison. Especially when you have the CAPTAIN COMMANDER praising their skills. He distinctly said anyone that came before and anyone since, can't match their skills. Let alone their complimentary abilities.

What we have here is a case of fanboyism. They see flashy characters that have weaknesses and lame stories written in for humor so they are likeable. People like Hitsugaya are drawn young with cool looking white hair that reminds readers of other manga characters, and given nice cool moves with shiny features like icicles and swords that rain. Meanwhile READERS pay attention to things that characters say. Characters that are obviously much more experienced and more in the know. But they don't take the words used from those characters because they aren't 'hip' and popular. If Hitsugaya says I'm stronger than Yama, people would believe him and we'd have threads all day about it. But Yama says Shunsui and Juushiro are better than everyone before and after and no one believes him. Yama doesn't use ice clones or rain down swords from the sky or have some lame glasses on and spawn illusions so his words aren't for real. They are just his 'opinion'. Even though he's the CAPTAIN COMMANDER and has seen all shinigami in the past 2000 years. But Tousen and Gin could beat Shunsui and Juushiro. And they can use Bankai, and Mask, and Resurreccion, all at once too! QFT guys. Take what the head of the Gotei 13, and pretty much all of known Soul Society's words as truth. He's the only one in the know of everyone's power.

WhisperPL
May 19, 2010, 05:33 AM
I Remember when Yama train kendo with Ken - old man kick his ass with wooden sword (bokken) so much...that was the firs time i saw Ken scared xD almost with tears in his eyes. But when he fight with his best students he use shi kai and they dont die - this is a real deal :)

AlB
May 19, 2010, 05:40 AM
what facts do you have to base your lame theory that someone can use Bankai and mask? Ichigo? He's the ONLY one weve seen use Bankai and mask. If you have PROOF OTHERWISE I suggest you post it. Because according to Tousen he said he has a power greater than bankai, which was him using hollowfication. You must be confused or you don't read bleach. But to come on here and say that I'm coming up with theories when you have no proof that anyone besides Ichigo can use Bankai and mask, is just lame and makes you look foolish, questioning something weve never seen.

yet you state it like it's a fact. this nonsense must stop. unless any bleach character (who has enough credibility) says that it is impossible to use bankai + mask, your theory is nothing more than unfounded, far-fetched, wild speculation. I suggest you stop refering to speculations and argue based on facts.

Hystzen
May 19, 2010, 05:47 AM
yet you state it like it's a fact. this nonsense must stop. unless any bleach character (who has enough credibility) says that it is impossible to use bankai + mask, your theory is nothing more than unfounded, far-fetched, wild speculation. I suggest you stop refering to speculations and argue based on facts.

dude dont bother chill acutally both of you chill out :tem.


the main trouble is people are taking what they read in manga to serious all we have to go on for Uki + shunsui rape team is YAMMAS WORD THAT IT and all shunsui fanboys bring it up no matter what . WE HAVE NEVER SEEN THEM FULLY FIGHT TOGETHER AS A TEAM . but on the other hand we have seen Aizen destory the gotei 13 on his own, Gin slice hiyori in half , tousen well.......ermm....he got a good bankai :tem.

we know yamma is a beast but even a beast can be beat by a good team working together so stop the damn arugement and get back on topic :D

freshseth83
May 19, 2010, 05:48 AM
I said SO FAR we haven't seen ANYONE BESIDES ICHIGO use bankai and Mask at the same time. That's MANGA FACT there buddy. Tousen DIED already and DIDN'T use bankai and mask. So based on those MANGA FACTS, Tousen can't use Bankai and mask. He said he has a power greater than Bankai. And went and put a mask on. If you are paying any attention, you would realize that he gave up his power of bankai, even Komamura said this.

You=not reading the manga.
Me=posting facts.

And hyst- who's word are we to take for a basis of power? Aizen's? Did he say Gin and Tousen are the best duo in SS? Did he say their skills are unparalleled? Did Aizen say they couldn't be touched? No. We seen Tousen die by the hands of a V/C. We seen Shunsui take out an opponent TWO CAPTAINS WITH MASK couldn't even harm. Go ahead and believe what you want, but Gin and Tousen don't even see eye to eye, I doubt they'd even work together.

Hystzen
May 19, 2010, 06:05 AM
stop putting shunsui on such a high pedestal he beat a prima with shikai yes but what was starrk doing......oh yea he was busy with love and rose who were keeping him busy they ALL FORGOT about shunsui (yes it was a mistake) ....it not like he beat him in a fair 1 on 1 and showed pure strength and skill. he beat a prima but what happened...oh yea he ended up like the rest on the floor after aizen pwned him. people are now much shunsui fanboys they think he pretty much invincible they getting as bad as aizen ones

Gran Maestro
May 19, 2010, 06:12 AM
stop putting shunsui on such a high pedestal he beat a prima with shikai yes but what was starrk doing......oh yea he was busy with love and rose who were keeping him busy they ALL FORGOT about shunsui (yes it was a mistake) ....it not like he beat him in a fair 1 on 1 and showed pure strength and skill. he beat a prima but what happened...oh yea he ended up like the rest on the floor after aizen pwned him. people are now much shunsui fanboys they think he pretty much invincible they getting as bad as aizen ones

You're giving Gin credit for slicing Hiyori who was attacking Aizen but you don't give credit to Shunsui who defeated Stark in a fair colour game with just shikai. This is ludicrous.

Hystzen
May 19, 2010, 06:28 AM
You're giving Gin credit for slicing Hiyori who was attacking Aizen but you don't give credit to Shunsui who defeated Stark in a fair colour game with just shikai. This is ludicrous.

i wasent giving gin credit just writing what each of these characters have done so far ;). then i got carried away with the fact everyone these days is making shunsui out to be a god like character :p

Gran Maestro
May 19, 2010, 06:46 AM
i wasent giving gin credit just writing what each of these characters have done so far ;). then i got carried away with the fact everyone these days is making shunsui out to be a god like character :p

No, Shunsui is not a godlike character, this title goes to Yamamoto. Shunsui is one of the high-tier characters, when people (not you) talk like "Yeah, Shunsui is strong but every captain is strong, so Shunsui is actually not strong according to captain standards, the power difference is negligible", me and some other members feel obliged to fix this illusion using manga facts that are continuously being ignored.

AlB
May 19, 2010, 07:12 AM
dude dont bother chill acutally both of you chill out :tem.

I'm chill, it's just... oh whatever back to topic :D



the main trouble is people are taking what they read in manga to serious all we have to go on for Uki + shunsui rape team is YAMMAS WORD THAT IT and all shunsui fanboys bring it up no matter what . WE HAVE NEVER SEEN THEM FULLY FIGHT TOGETHER AS A TEAM . but on the other hand we have seen Aizen destory the gotei 13 on his own, Gin slice hiyori in half , tousen well.......ermm....he got a good bankai :tem.

yeah, that's why they hype shunsui and uki so much. no other reason.
some say that shunsui pwned stark with only shikai, but I disagree. he pwned stark with shikai and Love and Rose working as distraction.
I don't say he is lame, but I say people ovehype him too much. he is strongest of current SS captains, there's no doubt about it, but that doesn't matter right now: he simply won't be able to survive for a minute in Tousen's bankai (ok forget the mask, simply bankai)


we know yamma is a beast but even a beast can be beat by a good team working

quoted for truth.
I think last chapter pretty much proves it.

chan-chan
May 19, 2010, 07:57 AM
Aizen is overpowered! He alone will win. He does not need his 2 lackeys.

Pavitre
May 19, 2010, 12:50 PM
with only these 6 fighters and no outside interference of any kind(including the hogokyou) or by any person, then this goes to yama and captains.
uki and shun can take care of gin and tousen and yama can take care of aizen.

Raizen
May 19, 2010, 01:28 PM
yeah, that's why they hype shunsui and uki so much. no other reason.
some say that shunsui pwned stark with only shikai, but I disagree. he pwned stark with shikai and Love and Rose working as distraction.
I don't say he is lame, but I say people ovehype him too much. he is strongest of current SS captains, there's no doubt about it, but that doesn't matter right now: he simply won't be able to survive for a minute in Tousen's bankai (ok forget the mask, simply bankai)

The hype for shunsui and uki is a doing of the author. Stating that shunsui and uki are better than anyone before and after them, stating shunsui and uki are among the oldest captains, stating that shunsui and uki's teamwork is unparralled, putting shunsui and uki against the monster that is yama, and hacing shunsui beat starks with just shikai.

The hype that shunsui and uki has is well deserved. B/c based on manga evidence, they are far and above any other captains.

Love and Rose didn't do much. They didn't even scratch starks even with mask and shikai. The only hit shunsui got on starks was the shadow game, the same way starks got a hit on shunsui when he was distracted. There is not much of a difference. In the end, shunsui and starks fought 1-on-1 with no interference and shunsui proved to be better and stronger. That is FACT.

Saying that shunsui can't survive tousen's bankai is bull and nothing but fanboyism. Tousen's bankai takes a lot of time to activate, in the given time shunsui can hit tousen with a head slice, busho toma, shadow game, color, or he can simply shuunpo out of the area. Shunsui's speed far outpaces tousen.

kkck
May 19, 2010, 02:24 PM
http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/313/15/

About this part, I´d question the whole thing was done through sheer speed. It´d make little sense, if any at all. Surely starrk is fast but to be fast enough to sonido through several miles in fractions of second, not be sensed coming at all even though moving at such absurd speed should have required some decent amount of reiatsu and then shunpoing back without having ichigo and kempachi being able to tell the direction in which starrk ran off is WAY too much.

Gran Maestro
May 19, 2010, 02:38 PM
http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/313/15/

About this part, I´d question the whole thing was done through sheer speed. It´d make little sense, if any at all. Surely starrk is fast but to be fast enough to sonido through several miles in fractions of second, not be sensed coming at all even though moving at such absurd speed should have required some decent amount of reiatsu and then shunpoing back without having ichigo and kempachi being able to tell the direction in which starrk ran off is WAY too much.

Kenpachi and Ichigo were obviously having trouble with following Stark's movements with their eyes, isn't it the point? Do you suggest Stark used Tessai's teleportation kidou to disappear? :blink

kkck
May 19, 2010, 03:25 PM
Kenpachi and Ichigo were obviously having trouble with following Stark's movements with their eyes, isn't it the point? Do you suggest Stark used Tessai's teleportation kidou to disappear? :blink

Ichigo said he "vanished". Now, the word itself is very vague but considering the circumstances it could well be something very literal. I mean, could starrk seriously be so absurdly fast that he would be beyond the senses of two captain level shinigami and travel to where aizen is immediately along with by the time innue got there starrk already apparently was not there? I don't think it necessarily was tessai's technique but given the over exaggeration of the circumstances it seems more reasonable that what happened was not necessarily a thing of speed. Aizen is a very clever guy, a very knowledgeable scientist in his own right, would it be that unlikely he came up with something of the sort? Worth noting, kempachi is not slow in the least, he is actually quite fast considering he lacks shunpo. In that sense, starrk was so absurdly fast that kempachi right after a deadly battle -meaning his senses were at their best right?- could not react to starrk simply running away? Seriously, IMHO we have more than enough to suggest there was something else going on there....

Raizen
May 19, 2010, 03:42 PM
^ If a technique was used as u so suggest, i would think the author would at least comment on it.

Gran Maestro
May 19, 2010, 04:28 PM
Ichigo said he "vanished". Now, the word itself is very vague but considering the circumstances it could well be something very literal. I mean, could starrk seriously be so absurdly fast that he would be beyond the senses of two captain level shinigami and travel to where aizen is immediately along with by the time innue got there starrk already apparently was not there? I don't think it necessarily was tessai's technique but given the over exaggeration of the circumstances it seems more reasonable that what happened was not necessarily a thing of speed. Aizen is a very clever guy, a very knowledgeable scientist in his own right, would it be that unlikely he came up with something of the sort? Worth noting, kempachi is not slow in the least, he is actually quite fast considering he lacks shunpo. In that sense, starrk was so absurdly fast that kempachi right after a deadly battle -meaning his senses were at their best right?- could not react to starrk simply running away? Seriously, IMHO we have more than enough to suggest there was something else going on there....

Well, if Stark did use anything other than his speed to vanish, it stands to reason that Kubo would have mentioned/emphasized it in the manga. I don't think Stark arrived there instantaneously, it's just that the manga skipped the journey. Stark carried Orihime away, left her before Aizen and joined his fellow espada, that's it.

Ichigo also had trouble with following Aizen's movements in FKT, I don't think it's impossible for Stark to be that fast. If Stark had long shunpo sonido steps, he could have travelled into/out of their vision in a couple of steps. Kenpachi is probably as fast as a shinigami can be without shunpo but things happened so fast and even he may need some time to adapt to the movements of an extraordinarily fast opponent.

kkck
May 19, 2010, 04:28 PM
Worth noting, the author didn´t actually imply thw whole thing was a matter of speed, we merely assume it. I do admit it is an immeadiate more reasonable assumption although the sheer absurdity of the feat and the "he vanished" comment would point toward something else.

Gran Maestro
May 19, 2010, 04:46 PM
Worth noting, the author didn´t actually imply thw whole thing was a matter of speed, we merely assume it. I do admit it is an immeadiate more reasonable assumption although the sheer absurdity of the feat and the "he vanished" comment would point toward something else.

"He vanished" means "He moved so fast that I couldn't see where he has gone", it doesn't mean "He has teleportation powers". ;)

Here's an example for you:

http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/174/17/

kkck
May 19, 2010, 05:00 PM
"He vanished" means "He moved so fast that I couldn't see where he has gone", it doesn't mean "He has teleportation powers". ;)

Here's an example for you:

http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/174/17/

Well, it depends on whether you take the whole thing metaphorically or literally. I know aizen can speedblits anyone but given how absurdly powerful he is the comparison seems to be a tad on the absurd side. Most people have already gotten used to the idea of starrk doing that due to sheer speed but if you remove that biass and consider the circumstances then both are about as likely. Seriously, even VCs can somewhat half react to captain level enemies to a very limited degree, and here we are talking about captain level people not getting even that. We really are talking about a shunpo that covers many miles in less than a second here (moving less than that would mean kempachi and ichigo could at least follow within the next few seconds, yet that was not the case).

freshseth83
May 19, 2010, 05:03 PM
Take a look here, http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/155/08/ at how far Shunsui traveled in one step when he rescued Nanao-Chan from Yama's reiatsu. It's obviously far enough away that she can't feel his spiritual pressure anymore. And wherever he took her looks like it's in front of a court or some area close to it. Taking that into consideration and how far away they normally ran from the hill, it would seem Shunsui can travel extreme distances in one Step. That's extreme Shunpo, so I would think Starrk who was about as fast as Shunsui could do what he did in Hueco Mundo with a Sonido.

DEATHBOTT
May 19, 2010, 05:06 PM
I don't think shikai and mask is the equivalent of a bankai. That is far from it. As i have said, bankai is pure shinigami power while shikai and mask is a mix between incomplete hollow and shinigami powers. I'd take the pure one anyday.

Shunsui has shown speed much greater than anything tousen has shown. If anything, it will be shunsui that speedblitz tousen

im sorry i dont understand what you mean. i didnt say mask + shikai = bankai. i said that if they can go shikai with a mask i dont see why they couldnt go bankai with a mask. i dont see where people got this whole if they were a shimigami first the balance will be off or whatever. has it even said anything like that in the manga? from what we have seen 2 visards have gone bankai one with mask and one without, hardly conclusive evidence that only ichigo can do it. kensie not useing his mask with banaki isnt evidence that he cant, characters always hold back their full power.

freshseth83
May 19, 2010, 05:16 PM
Where do you see a Vizard going Bankai with his mask on? Show me the page where that's at. Until you can do that, it looks like to me and others on here, that it's either one or the other. My bet is that the Reiatsu involved with holding a mask is probably too much to use it combined with a bankai. Hell, some of the Vizards can't even keep their mask on for more than a couple minutes. You're telling me they can use it and Bankai?

DEATHBOTT
May 19, 2010, 05:22 PM
Where do you see a Vizard going Bankai with his mask on? Show me the page where that's at. Until you can do that, it looks like to me and others on here, that it's either one or the other. My bet is that the Reiatsu involved with holding a mask is probably too much to use it combined with a bankai. Hell, some of the Vizards can't even keep their mask on for more than a couple minutes. You're telling me they can use it and Bankai?
ichigo. and where did you get this reitsu thing from im pretty sure mask gives you more reitsu? you and others here are just makieng baseless assumptions.

Gran Maestro
May 19, 2010, 05:28 PM
Well, it depends on whether you take the whole thing metaphorically or literally. I know aizen can speedblits anyone but given how absurdly powerful he is the comparison seems to be a tad on the absurd side. Most people have already gotten used to the idea of starrk doing that due to sheer speed but if you remove that biass and consider the circumstances then both are about as likely. Seriously, even VCs can somewhat half react to captain level enemies to a very limited degree, and here we are talking about captain level people not getting even that. We really are talking about a shunpo that covers many miles in less than a second here (moving less than that would mean kempachi and ichigo could at least follow within the next few seconds, yet that was not the case).

An experienced shunpo/sonido user may cover a great distance in one step. For example, Yamamoto passed by Shunsui & Ukitake when they were running away and they didn't notice. Did he use a teleportation device? I don't think so. Kubo simply tried to show us how fast Stark was, you're overanalyzing this feat by assuming there are techniques which can provide such feats. Then perhaps Aizen is using the same technique to accomplish his speed feats, it's possible, right? I don't think any sane author would omit such an important plot detail.

freshseth83
May 19, 2010, 08:17 PM
ichigo. and where did you get this reitsu thing from im pretty sure mask gives you more reitsu? you and others here are just makieng baseless assumptions.

you can't even prove a point but my assumptions are baseless? Ichigo is NOT a vizard. He has never been a vizard, nor an arrancar. He's Ichigo, and he is different. He is one with his hollow from the beginning. Vizards are not one with their hollow in the beginning. They were altered and gained hollow powers, not naturally. Ichigo is different, he naturally has both shinigami and hollow powers.

Try again though, maybe next time you can PROVE to me that someone BESIDES ICHIGO can use Bankai WITH mask.

DEATHBOTT
May 19, 2010, 08:35 PM
you can't even prove a point but my assumptions are baseless? Ichigo is NOT a vizard. He has never been a vizard, nor an arrancar. He's Ichigo, and he is different. He is one with his hollow from the beginning. Vizards are not one with their hollow in the beginning. They were altered and gained hollow powers, not naturally. Ichigo is different, he naturally has both shinigami and hollow powers.

Try again though, maybe next time you can PROVE to me that someone BESIDES ICHIGO can use Bankai WITH mask.

he is a visard. he wasnt one with his powers hence the training.

freshseth83
May 19, 2010, 09:41 PM
he didn't know how to control his powers. he was one with his hollow because it has been in him since birth. that's not a vizard.

DEATHBOTT
May 19, 2010, 09:53 PM
he didn't know how to control his powers. he was one with his hollow because it has been in him since birth. that's not a vizard.
he got his hollow when he trained with uhara not since birth.

freshseth83
May 19, 2010, 09:57 PM
his hollow was apart of him, it wasn't given to him. regardless of when it came to be, it wasn't like the vizards who gained hollow powers after an experiment on them. Ichigo had a hollow side since he found out his powers. That doesn't make him a Vizard.

DEATHBOTT
May 19, 2010, 10:27 PM
well has visard ever been defined? i always thought it meant a shimigami who gained hollow powers. the visards, tousan and ichigo all fit under that discription so ive always considered them visards.

freshseth83
May 19, 2010, 10:41 PM
Ichigo didn't GAIN hollow powers, he didn't AQUIRE them, he HAD them as APART of himself. That's why he isn't a Vizard. He realized he wasn't like the Vizards in that sense. Even though he talked to the hollow inside of himself. He realized that the hollow was apart of him because he was apart of Zangetsu, and Zangetsu is apart of Ichigo. So either Zangetsu is a hollow sword, or Ichigo Zengetsu and Shirosaki are all one. That's why I say he's not a vizard because he's always had this power. He didn't find it one day. It's been apart of him.

DEATHBOTT
May 19, 2010, 10:53 PM
Ichigo didn't GAIN hollow powers, he didn't AQUIRE them, he HAD them as APART of himself. That's why he isn't a Vizard. He realized he wasn't like the Vizards in that sense. Even though he talked to the hollow inside of himself. He realized that the hollow was apart of him because he was apart of Zangetsu, and Zangetsu is apart of Ichigo. So either Zangetsu is a hollow sword, or Ichigo Zengetsu and Shirosaki are all one. That's why I say he's not a vizard because he's always had this power. He didn't find it one day. It's been apart of him.
he did gain it though. when he awakened his shimigami powers he awakened hollow powers too. before then he didnt have them. and where has it been stated that the hollow inside the visards and tousan isnt part of them? im pretty sure thats what an inner hollow is.

kkck
May 19, 2010, 11:38 PM
he did gain it though. when he awakened his shimigami powers he awakened hollow powers too. before then he didnt have them. and where has it been stated that the hollow inside the visards and tousan isnt part of them? im pretty sure thats what an inner hollow is.

Actually, ichigo had shinigami powers within him all along. Rukia giving him powers was not what made ichigo gain his powers, it was what made ichigo awaken his power. If ichigo's power was awakened then logically it was something he had all along, not something he acquired from external sources. Also, it seems as if urahara predicted the vizards would contact ichigo long ago (http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/188/08/). Considering ichigo was born of a human body and a shinigami soul, odds are he had his shinigami and hollow powers from the moment he was conceived. As aizen said, he was a special existence from the very start.

Raizen
May 19, 2010, 11:57 PM
im sorry i dont understand what you mean. i didnt say mask + shikai = bankai. i said that if they can go shikai with a mask i dont see why they couldnt go bankai with a mask. i dont see where people got this whole if they were a shimigami first the balance will be off or whatever. has it even said anything like that in the manga? from what we have seen 2 visards have gone bankai one with mask and one without, hardly conclusive evidence that only ichigo can do it. kensie not useing his mask with banaki isnt evidence that he cant, characters always hold back their full power.
That statement wasn't exactly meant for you.
Anyways, that is just a theory, but it is pretty soundly one :p.
Unlike ichigo, the hollow and shinigami side of the others are not one. SO it should be harder for them to draw out the max power of both side at the same time. Ichigo can b/c zangetsu and hichigo are one in the same. Kenseu is not one to hold back. That is why he went bankai right away. I think if he could use the mask as well, he would have done so

Hystzen
May 20, 2010, 06:20 PM
yamma would do that as a last resort he might not act it but he like shunsui and uki too much to just roast them against 3 vs 3...only reason he wanted to do that to aizen in FKT was he thort he was the last one standing and had no choice. so yamma wont just burn them all alive unless uki and shun fall.

Raizen
May 20, 2010, 06:23 PM
^ Well in SS, shunsui commented that if they fought there on sokyoku hill, EVERYONE there would die. So it means that yama can get pretty nasty. Besides, considering they are his students and they know his abilities, they can pretty much protect themselves from death if it comes to that

Hystzen
May 20, 2010, 06:28 PM
but in SS he was going to kill them 2 now in a team situ were ment to be working together cant see the old mad man doing an attack which destroys everyone he really sees them as his sons i know he is insane (letting aizen stab him so he can punch him to death) but dont think he that insane.

acutally now how this fight ends.

yamma lets tousen stab him punches him to death
yamma lets gin stab him punches him to death
yamma lets aizen stab him punches him to death

shunsui and uki figure out yamma is fully insane and run away

Raizen
May 20, 2010, 06:29 PM
but in SS he was going to kill them 2 now in a team situ were ment to be working together cant see the old mad man doing an attack which destroys everyone he really sees them as his sons i know he is insane (letting aizen stab him so he can punch him to death) but dont think he that insane.

acutally now how this fight ends.

yamma lets tousen stab him punches him to death
yamma lets gin stab him punches him to death
yamma lets aizen stab him punches him to death

shunsui and uki figure out yamma is fully insane and run away
HAHA that is funny!!
Yama is a beastly monster. Hell, he could take all 3 by himself IMO

freshseth83
May 20, 2010, 08:37 PM
In SS he said you wouldn't get away with just a a beating this time. He didn't say, I'm going to kill you this time. I doubt he would go as far as kill his two best and favorite students. I know he would give them a hard time but he would leave the punishment of them up to the courts. After a whooping of course. But Shunsui and Juushiro know Yama very well. Probably as well as all the captains combined. They were trained by Yama himself. Not just shinigami in his academy. Of course Unohana was there too, so I think those two would be ok if Yama were to torch the whole area.

Rainl
May 23, 2010, 02:34 PM
This is another question that people seem to be skipping over. Who on Aizen's team has anywhere near the amount of power required to actually put Yamamoto down?

Let me refresh your memory:

http://www.mangatoshokan.com/read/Bleach/Maximum7/395/14
http://www.mangatoshokan.com/read/Bleach/Maximum7/395/15

"The flames would have blown away you're paltry barrier, and reduced an area extensively larger than this tiny town(you should note that FKT was stated to be 14 miles wide) to ash."

Yamamoto tanked a blast that would have created an explosion 14 miles wide, no check that, considering Aizen stated it would have destroyed an area larger than the "tiny" town, we can say that it would have created an explosion at least 28 miles wide.

The word extensively implies that it would have been even much larger than even 28 miles, but I'm simply giving a ball-park area.

Yamamoto nullified that damage and survived it. Think about that.

The only way Aizen's team would have a chance in hell is if they were to focus on Yamamoto alone, but that won't be possible with Shunsui around since he's terribly sneaky and cunning.

Tousen's bankai is irrelevant considering Yamamoto could simply tear it down with the AOE from Ryuujin Jakka. Yamamoto already revealed his way of nullifying Aizen's hypnosis, buy simply tanking Aizen's attack(which isn't even going to hurt him) and capturing him.

I also forgot the fact to mention that Gin and Tousen are both completely enshrouded in white clothing. That already gives them a huge disadvantage with Shunsui's ability around, on top of his ability to actually hide his presence within shadows. No, they won't even have the time to pay attention to Yamamoto at all.

Aizen gets raped if he tries to take on Yamamoto alone, since he simply does not have the power to put him down.

The main deciding factor here is Yamamoto's durability. The amount of damage he can take is just too stupid.

Young Aizen
May 23, 2010, 04:33 PM
This is another question that people seem to be skipping over. Who on Aizen's team has anywhere near the amount of power required to actually put Yamamoto down?

Let me refresh your memory:

http://www.mangatoshokan.com/read/Bleach/Maximum7/395/14
http://www.mangatoshokan.com/read/Bleach/Maximum7/395/15

"The flames would have blown away you're paltry barrier, and reduced an area extensively larger than this tiny town(you should note that FKT was stated to be 14 miles wide) to ash."

Yamamoto tanked a blast that would have created an explosion 14 miles wide, no check that, considering Aizen stated it would have destroyed an area larger than the "tiny" town, we can say that it would have created an explosion at least 28 miles wide.

The word extensively implies that it would have been even much larger than even 28 miles, but I'm simply giving a ball-park area.

Yamamoto nullified that damage and survived it. Think about that.

The only way Aizen's team would have a chance in hell is if they were to focus on Yamamoto alone, but that won't be possible with Shunsui around since he's terribly sneaky and cunning.

Tousen's bankai is irrelevant considering Yamamoto could simply tear it down with the AOE from Ryuujin Jakka. Yamamoto already revealed his way of nullifying Aizen's hypnosis, buy simply tanking Aizen's attack(which isn't even going to hurt him) and capturing him.

I also forgot the fact to mention that Gin and Tousen are both completely enshrouded in white clothing. That already gives them a huge disadvantage with Shunsui's ability around, on top of his ability to actually hide his presence within shadows. No, they won't even have the time to pay attention to Yamamoto at all.

Aizen gets raped if he tries to take on Yamamoto alone, since he simply does not have the power to put him down.

The main deciding factor here is Yamamoto's durability. The amount of damage he can take is just too stupid.

Lol you forget that if yama gets trapped inside Tousen's bankai he loses his sense of reiatsu thus is unable to release. And yama wouldn't release RJ past shikai no way unless Shunsui and ukitake are already down as a last resort unless he plans to kill them as well. I think Yama ends up winning but its a no go if Aizen actually takes part in teamwork with gin and tousen and knock off shunsui and juushiro first.

Random101
May 23, 2010, 04:36 PM
Losing sense of reiatsu is not losing the ability to release. Losing the sense of reiatsu means just that, you can't sense people's reiatsu.

En Yang Ji
May 23, 2010, 05:59 PM
Yama would probably lose to Aizen and Gin. Aizen would put Yama under a illusion while Gin snipes Yama. Gin could aim and hit Yama in the head, on the neck or on his chest. Gin could also use his new move to hit Yama multiple times before he can react.

Shunsui and Ukitake wouldn't be able to do anything because they would also be under Aizen's illusions.

kkck
May 23, 2010, 10:39 PM
^ I agree with that, if aizen really uses teamwork here there is no plausible way for SS to win. How are any of them going to stop a captain with a hollowification and resurrecion, and the fastest bankai if they can't see any of that? Aizen does not even have to move.....

Random101
May 23, 2010, 11:00 PM
How? Yamamoto hits Ryuujinjakka's Kill Everything Button. That's how.

El Samurai Guapo
May 23, 2010, 11:23 PM
I think people take Ryuujin Jakka's release command too literally. I have never seen anything that suggests Yamamoto can simply reduce everything to ashes at his will. If he could seriously turn Sousuke, Kaname and Gin into dust instantaneously, then why the hell surround them in a barrier of fire, why not just directly incinerate them?

Random101
May 23, 2010, 11:51 PM
Because, obviously, kill everything literally means kill everything. It's best not to sacrifice everyone if there's a method to avoid it. Of course this ignores that he was going to do that anyway when a massive all out blast in front of him really would have sufficed (Bare minimum Aizen loses an arm and his sword which is only a good thing), but that's Kubo for you.

kkck
May 24, 2010, 03:26 AM
RJ is definitely powerful but I doubt It alone would easily defeat aizen. Yamamoto is not unaproachable, of that was the case then ukitake and kyoraku would have not lasted a fraction of a second against him(worth noting, aizen is considerably more powerful than either kyoraku or ukitake). IMHO aizen could give yamamoto a run for his money.
[hr]

How? Yamamoto hits Ryuujinjakka's Kill Everything Button. That's how.

If yamamoto could easily pull of the power his kamikaze attack showed without all the time and preparation he was shown to require, then the whole thing would be pointless. The very idea yama could pull that at will without preparation is ludicrous. Seriously, why bother making a kamikaze attack that powerful if he can just use that much power to instantly anhialate aizen? It's not like at the time yamamoto cared about whether the other captains lived. If yamamoto actually was that much stronger than aizen then such a ridiculous kamikaze attack is beyond moronic, yamamoto made that attack because he knew fighting aizen was damn dangerous even for him. Worth noting, the power of yamamoto's flames was sealed and compressed inside WW, for all we know that took part in the explosion being that big (not that we know for a fact the explosion would have killed aizen).

Random101
May 24, 2010, 03:28 AM
Kyoraku's got a reality warper and Ukitake has an all out reverser. Granted Aizen's got a brokensauce power all his own, but Kill Everything is a much easier option in the case of you simply not being able to trust your senses as opposed to the rules being changed on you or it being outright redirected. There's a reason Wonderwiess was designed specifically to negate Yamamoto's blade, namely that same Kill Everything card that almost got played on him right then.

I could also throw in them being his students, and reluctant given they were trying to follow what they thought was justice as opposed to being a blatant traitor, but then I remember there's a reason he's called Old Man Genocide. Namely he's perfectly willing to play said Kill Everything card even when there are many far wiser options available that doesn't involve Everything Dying. All just so he's that much surer.

Edit: That Kamikaze attack's already moronic. Seriously that was single handedly the dumbest move he could have played then.

kkck
May 24, 2010, 03:39 AM
The kamikaze attack was moronic under the assumption yamamoto could pull off anywhere near that without preparation and at will (basically the kill everything button). On the other hand, if yamamoto knew damn well KS could get to him and aizen had a real shot against him them a kamikaze attack is perfectly reasonable.

I still don't see why yamamoto's kamikaze attack is not seen as roughly the same thing as WW. Yamamoto being capable of one shooting aizen without breaking a sweat but still using a kamikaze attack would mean yamamoto is stupid beyond reason, he'd be nothing but a worthless senile old man who has long lost any form of reason or sense. I don't think people realize how much they are pissing over the old man by arguing such an outrageous thing (that yama could one shoot aizen easily without breaking a sweat).

Gran Maestro
May 24, 2010, 04:45 AM
Ok, let's see, what were Yamamoto's options:

1) Incinerate an area exponentially bigger than KT, kill Aizen and lots of innocent people in the process.

2) Incinerate a small area and ensure that Aizen is in that area.

Yamamoto chose the second option but the second option required a kamikaze attack. Yamamoto probably feared that any less powerful technique wouldn't ensure Aizen's death considering that Aizen had the power to fake his death.

Yes, I know, it doesn't make perfect sense but sometimes it's very hard for the author to write a story but not give a message that he doesn't intend. Kubo wanted to show us the flames of hell technique, WW's ability to absorb and store flames, Yamamoto's concern for the lives of humans, Aizen's survival chance against less powerful techniques due to his strength and illusions, and this is the scenario Kubo presented us.

Yamamoto wasn't afraid of Aizen even when he lost RJ and Kubo didn't let Aizen finish Yamamoto after Yamamoto defeated WW and instead forced Yamamoto to tank his own flames implying that only Yamamoto's own power could do a great deal of damage to himself. The manga suggests there may be a larger power difference between Yamamoto and Aizen than we first thought. Of course, we still can't say that Yamamoto can defeat Aizen without breaking a sweat but once Yamamoto makes his powerful techniques ready, there's not much Aizen can do to avoid getting incinerated. Aizen must do whatever he can until Yamamoto unleashes hell but given Yamamoto's durability, it would be a hard task for Aizen to defeat Yamamoto.

Now, about this fight: If Shunsui plays a color game and calls out a useless color, Gin's bankai will be useless. Otherwise Yamamoto and others have to be in constant motion to try to avoid getting hit. You don't have to see Gin, just move aimlessly. Once Yamamoto uses the powerful fire techniques, he can win but not without sacrificing his own men. Even if Gin hits Yamamoto, I think Yamamoto can survive if he doesn't take the hit on the head/neck. And there's always the possibility of barrier kidou that may block Gin's sword. If Yamamoto's side tries to have flawless victory (all 3 of them will survive), I don't think they can pull it off.

En Yang Ji
May 24, 2010, 04:58 AM
There's also Tousen's hollow form. I doubt either Shunsui or Ukitake can take an attack from that. It seems hard to dodge and has a lot of range.

kkck
May 24, 2010, 09:25 AM
Ok, let's see, what were Yamamoto's options:

1) Incinerate an area exponentially bigger than KT, kill Aizen and lots of innocent people in the process.

2) Incinerate a small area and ensure that Aizen is in that area.

Yamamoto chose the second option but the second option required a kamikaze attack. Yamamoto probably feared that any less powerful technique wouldn't ensure Aizen's death considering that Aizen had the power to fake his death.

Yes, I know, it doesn't make perfect sense but sometimes it's very hard for the author to write a story but not give a message that he doesn't intend. Kubo wanted to show us the flames of hell technique, WW's ability to absorb and store flames, Yamamoto's concern for the lives of humans, Aizen's survival chance against less powerful techniques due to his strength and illusions, and this is the scenario Kubo presented us.

Yamamoto wasn't afraid of Aizen even when he lost RJ and Kubo didn't let Aizen finish Yamamoto after Yamamoto defeated WW and instead forced Yamamoto to tank his own flames implying that only Yamamoto's own power could do a great deal of damage to himself. The manga suggests there may be a larger power difference between Yamamoto and Aizen than we first thought. Of course, we still can't say that Yamamoto can defeat Aizen without breaking a sweat but once Yamamoto makes his powerful techniques ready, there's not much Aizen can do to avoid getting incinerated. Aizen must do whatever he can until Yamamoto unleashes hell but given Yamamoto's durability, it would be a hard task for Aizen to defeat Yamamoto.

Now, about this fight: If Shunsui plays a color game and calls out a useless color, Gin's bankai will be useless. Otherwise Yamamoto and others have to be in constant motion to try to avoid getting hit. You don't have to see Gin, just move aimlessly. Once Yamamoto uses the powerful fire techniques, he can win but not without sacrificing his own men. Even if Gin hits Yamamoto, I think Yamamoto can survive if he doesn't take the hit on the head/neck. And there's always the possibility of barrier kidou that may block Gin's sword. If Yamamoto's side tries to have flawless victory (all 3 of them will survive), I don't think they can pull it off.

And why do you think the power than came from WWs head is something that yama can do casually? I would find it very strange he could pull of that kind of power casually when making the actual technique was something which took him at least a while. Then we also have a good chance that the reason the explosion was so big was because all the power of the flames was sealed in tiny WW, basically huge amount of very concentrated power. Personally, I don't think yama can pull of that kind of power casually. For one thing, there would not be a justification for either kyoraku or ukitake to be alive. The extent to which shunsui's rules apply and ukitake can absorb energy was already implied to be limited to some extent -specially with a power which would be much greater than their own-. I don't see how the first option is half viable, it is absurd.

Gran Maestro
May 24, 2010, 09:55 AM
And why do you think the power than came from WWs head is something that yama can do casually? I would find it very strange he could pull of that kind of power casually when making the actual technique was something which took him at least a while. Then we also have a good chance that the reason the explosion was so big was because all the power of the flames was sealed in tiny WW, basically huge amount of very concentrated power. Personally, I don't think yama can pull of that kind of power casually. For one thing, there would not be a justification for either kyoraku or ukitake to be alive. The extent to which shunsui's rules apply and ukitake can absorb energy was already implied to be limited to some extent -specially with a power which would be much greater than their own-. I don't see how the first option is half viable, it is absurd.

You mean "for either kyoraku or ukitake to survive in SS arc"? I don't think Yamamoto did even consider to use that move when they were fighting, Shunsui already implied Yamamoto had the power to kill them all (http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/153/14/). I also don't disagree that there's a limit to Shunsui and Ukitake's abilities, I don't think Shunsui or Ukitake can counter the flames of hell technique in any plausible way, it's too strong.

The explosion from WW was Yamamoto's own energy, I don't think WW contributed to the intensity of explosion by any means. I don't know whether Yamamoto can pull out that power casually, perhaps not. But even if it takes some time to summon such great force, the end result will be the same unless his opponents have power that can do better than Yamamoto's own force to defeat him.

Random101
May 24, 2010, 11:23 AM
On the other hand, if yamamoto knew damn well KS could get to him and aizen had a real shot against him them a kamikaze attack is perfectly reasonable.
He chose to do this attack despite:

1. Even if we choose to buy that Yamamoto literally had him in an armlock by that logic (otherwise Yamamoto kills everything while Aizen hip hops away), he could easily have just char broiled the area in front of him or slashed it and BARE MINIMUM been guaranteed to make Aizen lose both his arm and sword.

2. Gin, Backstabber extraordinaire was in prime position to backstab.

3. Ichigo, who had been sitting on his ass missing every possible opening imaginable despite that being exactly what he'd been told to do, was right there. Hold him freaking there and have Ichigo cut his bloody head off. Goddamn that was retarded.

Raizen
May 24, 2010, 01:20 PM
Yama would probably lose to Aizen and Gin. Aizen would put Yama under a illusion while Gin snipes Yama. Gin could aim and hit Yama in the head, on the neck or on his chest. Gin could also use his new move to hit Yama multiple times before he can react.

Shunsui and Ukitake wouldn't be able to do anything because they would also be under Aizen's illusions.
If that was the case, again, there would be no point to the espadas, no point for aizen to run away from SS, no point in the arrancar arc, no point in dividing the captains up.

If u think gin can harm let alone kill yama, then u need to reread the manga

En Yang Ji
May 24, 2010, 02:05 PM
If that was the case, again, there would be no point to the espadas, no point for aizen to run away from SS, no point in the arrancar arc, no point in dividing the captains up.

If u think gin can harm let alone kill yama, then u need to reread the manga

Why do you think that? IMO it makes a lot of sense for Gin to be able to hurt Yama, especially if he aims at those vital spots Kenpachi mentioned. The speed and power if Gin's bankai is incredible. Also he can stab vulnerable areas on Yama repeatedly before Yama can react if uses his Serial Blade attack.

- You think Shunsui and Ukitake can harm Yama right? I don't see why Gin couldn't.

Raizen
May 24, 2010, 02:17 PM
Ichigo was able to block all of gin's attacks. Are u seriously doubting yama, who is basically like a million times stronger than ichigo? yama would own gin if gin tries such a thing. he'd most likely grab the blade and break it.

It depends, how strong is gin relative to shunsui and uki. Plus, we do know that yama can take a massive amount of damage. Gin would be able to maybe scratch yama as WW did, but it wouldn't affect him

Rainl
May 24, 2010, 02:27 PM
then why the hell surround them in a barrier of fire, why not just directly incinerate them?

For the same exact reason Yamamoto resorted to a kamikaze attack, instead of simply punching a hole through Aizen's chest or head after he captured him, thus ending the fight in an instant.

It's known as a plot-shield.


There's also Tousen's hollow form. I doubt either Shunsui or Ukitake can take an attack from that. It seems hard to dodge and has a lot of range.

Shunsui has the ability to hide within shadows. Tousen's attack is useless if he isn't even aware of Shunsui's location. On top of the fact that once Tousen ressurects, his color is 90% black. Considering even Hisagi was capable of penetrating his reiatsu, he'd be one-shotted by Shunsui immediately.




- You think Shunsui and Ukitake can harm Yama right? I don't see why Gin couldn't.

The problem is they can't and they did not, when they fought back in SS arc. Therefore, that logic doesn't work.

Also, people keep mentioning Gin's sword speed, but fail to realize that he hasn't exactly demonstrated any impressive movement speed himself. He hasn't demonstrated any shunpo on par with Shunsui's, and most certainly not Yamamoto's.

People are assuming Yamamoto is simply going to sit there and let Gin clap his hands to get that speed increase. He'll need that speed increase to even pose a threat, considering even Ichigo was capable of dodging and blocking it beforehand.

En Yang Ji
May 24, 2010, 02:37 PM
Ichigo was able to block all of gin's attacks. Are u seriously doubting yama, who is basically like a million times stronger than ichigo? yama would own gin if gin tries such a thing. he'd most likely grab the blade and break it.

It depends, how strong is gin relative to shunsui and uki. Plus, we do know that yama can take a massive amount of damage. Gin would be able to maybe scratch yama as WW did, but it wouldn't affect him

- Aizen could hide Gin's attack and make him invisible. Not to mention Ichigo can't dodge Gin's bankai with reflexes. IMO he's predicting where it go an when he's going to attack.

- Are you saying Gin wouldn't be able to hurt Yama, with his bankai, if he hit a vital spot like the eyes, or throat?

If Gin's reiastu is at least comparable to Shunsui and Ukitake and they can stab Yama, than Gin can kill him with Aizen's assistance. It wouldn't matter if Yama can take a lot of damage if he got stabbed over 100 times, in less than a second, in his midsection. Even Yama has his limits.
[hr]

Shunsui has the ability to hide within shadows. Tousen's attack is useless if he isn't even aware of Shunsui's location. On top of the fact that once Tousen ressurects, his color is 90% black. Considering even Hisagi was capable of penetrating his reiatsu, he'd be one-shotted by Shunsui immediately.



The problem is they can't and they did not, when they fought back in SS arc. Therefore, that logic doesn't work.

Also, people keep mentioning Gin's sword speed, but fail to realize that he hasn't exactly demonstrated any impressive movement speed himself. He hasn't demonstrated any shunpo on par with Shunsui's, and most certainly not Yamamoto's.

People are assuming Yamamoto is simply going to sit there and let Gin clap his hands to get that speed increase. He'll need that speed increase to even pose a threat, considering even Ichigo was capable of dodging and blocking it beforehand.

- Aizen's shikai would take care of his subordinates weakness. Shunsui wouldn't be able to hit Tousen because of KS and Gin we'll be able to hit Yama for the reason.

- Yama may not have killed Aizen because of PIS, but I can say the same for Aizen. Aizen not creating an illusion to create as a diversion and not stabbing Yama in the eye or in the throat is also PIS.

Raizen
May 24, 2010, 02:50 PM
- Aizen could hide Gin's attack and make him invisible. Not to mention Ichigo can't dodge Gin's bankai with reflexes. IMO he's predicting where it go an when he's going to attack.

- Are you saying Gin wouldn't be able to hurt Yama, with his bankai, if he hit a vital spot like the eyes, or throat?

If Gin's reiastu is at least comparable to Shunsui and Ukitake and they can stab Yama, than Gin can kill him with Aizen's assistance. It wouldn't matter if Yama can take a lot of damage if he got stabbed over 100 times, in less than a second, in his midsection. Even Yama has his limits.
<hr noshade size="1">
Bottom line is ichigo is blocking and evading gin's bankai. If he can do it, yama can do it 1000 times better. The moment gin's bankai even touches or grazes yama, he will counter it. if he can counter aizen, he can do so to gin. This is yama we are talking about

i am saying gin won't get the chance to attack at such areas.

Again, the moment that blade connects with yama, yama will counter it. yama caught aizen and his blade while under KS, so he can do the same to gin.

En Yang Ji
May 24, 2010, 02:55 PM
What makes you think anyone is faster than Gin's bankai? If Yama's and Aizen's reflexes were that fast they would be so much stronger than anyone else that people like Urahara and Shunsui would be less than insects.

Random101
May 24, 2010, 05:56 PM
Frankly if Ichigo can react and dodge Gin's bankai, an Ichigo who not an hour ago couldn't fully perceive and react to an attack Orihime was able to react and block for him (While he was in bankai) there's a case to be made that anyone can do it. Granted, Kubo's massively inconsistent, particularly with Ichigo's power levels and abilities, but frankly everyone is proving faster than Ichigo's Bankai at this point.

kkck
May 24, 2010, 07:32 PM
You mean "for either kyoraku or ukitake to survive in SS arc"? I don't think Yamamoto did even consider to use that move when they were fighting, Shunsui already implied Yamamoto had the power to kill them all (http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/153/14/). I also don't disagree that there's a limit to Shunsui and Ukitake's abilities, I don't think Shunsui or Ukitake can counter the flames of hell technique in any plausible way, it's too strong.

The explosion from WW was Yamamoto's own energy, I don't think WW contributed to the intensity of explosion by any means. I don't know whether Yamamoto can pull out that power casually, perhaps not. But even if it takes some time to summon such great force, the end result will be the same unless his opponents have power that can do better than Yamamoto's own force to defeat him.

I agree in that the explosion was the result of yama's own energy, you misunderstood my point. The flames of hell originally were expanded over a number of huge pillars over a huge area. WW basically took at that power and compressed it in his tiny head. Logically that should result is an explosion which would be much more powerful than if it were compressed in a larger space.

How do you think yamamoto will call forth that sort of power in the middle of a fight? That sort of thing requires time and preparation, both things which are hard to come by while fighting. IMHO if kyoraku and ukitake could keep yamamoto at bay with their abilities then aizen being the beast he is should at least be capable of also keeping him at bay with his illusion and other skills.

freshseth83
May 25, 2010, 05:00 AM
If you have a bomb that is 500 feet long but has 50KT of TNT, it's the same as a 5 feet long bomb with 50KT of TNT. Regardless of the size the space the shape, Yama's flames were sealed. ALL of Ryujin-Jakka was sealed. Not just a part of it. Imagine how strong that blast would be, and Yama covered it with his body, and STILL managed to use a hado 96.

The Kamikaze attack could have been a damn bluff. We don't know. But Aizen would have been dead. I think he needed to do that attack because it was the only option with potentially enough power to make sure there was nothing left of Aizen. Who has the Hoguyoku and regenerative powers. I think Yama is smarter than that. If the flames he was going to use against Aizen were kamikaze, he knew they were going to destroy ALL of what Aizen was. Including the Hoguyoku. That's my guess. I still say he's much stronger than ANY shinigami, Aizen included, Shunsui and Juushiro included, Isshin included, Unohana Urahara Yoruichi Byakuya Kenpachi Hitsugaya included.

He's captain commander so to me, that screams SUPER power. The only reason Yama didn't step in before was because it's not his job to do what the captains are supposed to do. That's why he said why are you making me work? After he beat Alon, he told Kira to make his barrier stronger, because he wasn't done. And that attack was just a regular strike from his sword, that killed 3 arrancar with one swipe. Not to mention he pulverized WW who was as strong or stronger than any espada with his bare fists. Aizen stood no chance without WW's fail safe. The Kamikaze was just a quick way of ending Aizen instead of a drawn out process the other lames were doing.

Shunsui seems to be the only one like Yama. End things when they get serious. How he ended Starrk. He gave him a chance to play fairly in the game, but ultimately Starrk lost. People can say he only won because the vizards blah blah, but Shunsui won fairly. Those two were about to die. Would you let your comrades die or would you step in and end the charade with your own?

Ukitake is the only uknown, but to me stopping Byakuya in a flash and absorbing energy based attacks and schooling Lillynette is good enough to say he's got skills enough to stand with Tousen and Gin. We haven't even seen the Bankais for those two either. Once they come out to play it's a massacre.

DEATHBOTT
May 25, 2010, 06:05 AM
If you have a bomb that is 500 feet long but has 50KT of TNT, it's the same as a 5 feet long bomb with 50KT of TNT. Regardless of the size the space the shape, Yama's flames were sealed. ALL of Ryujin-Jakka was sealed. Not just a part of it. Imagine how strong that blast would be, and Yama covered it with his body, and STILL managed to use a hado 96.

The Kamikaze attack could have been a damn bluff. We don't know. But Aizen would have been dead. I think he needed to do that attack because it was the only option with potentially enough power to make sure there was nothing left of Aizen. Who has the Hoguyoku and regenerative powers. I think Yama is smarter than that. If the flames he was going to use against Aizen were kamikaze, he knew they were going to destroy ALL of what Aizen was. Including the Hoguyoku. That's my guess. I still say he's much stronger than ANY shinigami, Aizen included, Shunsui and Juushiro included, Isshin included, Unohana Urahara Yoruichi Byakuya Kenpachi Hitsugaya included.

He's captain commander so to me, that screams SUPER power. The only reason Yama didn't step in before was because it's not his job to do what the captains are supposed to do. That's why he said why are you making me work? After he beat Alon, he told Kira to make his barrier stronger, because he wasn't done. And that attack was just a regular strike from his sword, that killed 3 arrancar with one swipe. Not to mention he pulverized WW who was as strong or stronger than any espada with his bare fists. Aizen stood no chance without WW's fail safe. The Kamikaze was just a quick way of ending Aizen instead of a drawn out process the other lames were doing.

Shunsui seems to be the only one like Yama. End things when they get serious. How he ended Starrk. He gave him a chance to play fairly in the game, but ultimately Starrk lost. People can say he only won because the vizards blah blah, but Shunsui won fairly. Those two were about to die. Would you let your comrades die or would you step in and end the charade with your own?

Ukitake is the only uknown, but to me stopping Byakuya in a flash and absorbing energy based attacks and schooling Lillynette is good enough to say he's got skills enough to stand with Tousen and Gin. We haven't even seen the Bankais for those two either. Once they come out to play it's a massacre.
1. i wont even bother explaining to you why you are wrong about the compressed explosion.

2. i dont have any idea why yama would bluff if he thinks he is gonna kill aizan that doesnt make sense.

3. yama doesnt know about the hogyuko.

4. and how is yama stronger than shunsui and jushiro when he said they were stronger than every shimigami before and after? sarcasm.

5. and i beleive the reason he didnt step in sooner was because he was setting up the kamikaze attack. and how is a kamikaze attack were all his men die more preferable to a long drawn out attack that would save them all, because after all you think yama can just own aizan.

6.and i dont get why you say shunsui won fair and square for useing love and rose as a decoy but when shunsui was "distracted" hitsu and got taken down you say its bullshit.

7. so schooling a weak arrancar and holding byuakuyas hand back makes jushiro good enough to beat other captains?

Gran Maestro
May 25, 2010, 09:47 AM
If you have a bomb that is 500 feet long but has 50KT of TNT, it's the same as a 5 feet long bomb with 50KT of TNT.

I won't get involved in Bleach discussions until next week but I want to give some info about physics. You're absolutely right, 50 KT of TNT has same amount of energy no matter what. One kilogram of TNT (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trinitrotoluene) always contains 4.6 megajoules of energy. It's absurd to think that you can take some amount of TNT which is, for example, barely enough to destroy a building and then destroy whole city with it by compressing it. It's against the Law of Conservation of Energy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Law_of_Conservation_of_Energy). Not to mention the fact that if the characters in the manga don't mention such thing, we can't assume it happened, bypassing author's intent.

thornofcarrion
May 25, 2010, 11:35 AM
A good match up, if it goes like Aizen vs. Yama, Gin vs, Shunsui (say) and Tousen vs. Ukitake (say) - team SS would win. Tousen would not be stronger than Ukitake or Shunsui. Yama can take out Aizen if WW is not around. I am not in favor of gauging Shunsui against Aizen. Everyone failed against KS. The only battle I am not too sure about is Gin vs. Shunsui. We have seen so little about Gin. His fight against Ichigo is not a correct measure of his strength. Anyways, Team SS is my pick.

Raizen
May 25, 2010, 12:34 PM
What makes you think anyone is faster than Gin's bankai? If Yama's and Aizen's reflexes were that fast they would be so much stronger than anyone else that people like Urahara and Shunsui would be less than insects.
What makes u think they can't? Lts compare it to shuunpo. What exactly is shuunpo? high speed movement. The 7th espada can move so fast that he can leave afterimages, yet byakuya can react to it.

En Yang Ji
May 25, 2010, 12:54 PM
- IMO Gin's bankai is incomparable to shunpo. Gin's bankai can extend 13 kilometers in .008 seconds. Who do we know has done that with shunpo?

- If Yama can react to Gin's bankai it doesn't matter anyway. aizen can make it so Yama doesn't feel Gin's blade until it's in his head.

Random101
May 25, 2010, 12:57 PM
Since when has shunpo been timed? Granted it sounds good when large numbers are thrown in, but if you don't clarify what these numbers mean in comparison with everything else all you can really do is look at how it relates in execution.

And in execution Ichigo, who in bankai like 60 or so chapters ago was slower in reaction time and ability to move than Orihime, can dodge it rather reliably after a few tries. Yeah, not the best case to be made.

Raizen
May 25, 2010, 01:47 PM
My point is to be able to make afterimages, means that the speed is extremely fast. Yet a shinigami was able to respond to it. My point is these shinigamis would be able to react to gin's speed as well.

As for gin shooting yamamoto. Again, if it was as easy as u claim, there was no point in modding WW, getting teh espadas, escaping SS, etc. All aizen had to do was take out yama if he could but he couldn't

En Yang Ji
May 25, 2010, 01:49 PM
The reason Aizen didn't use KS that way is PIS.

freshseth83
May 25, 2010, 03:35 PM
More like there is a limit on KS. I haven't seen him use it so that OTHER's aren't what they appear. The only time we see something like that work is with Aizen using it as himself, appearing in one place but being in another. I've never seen KS be used to show another character in one place but be in another. Like Gin or Tousen. When has it been shown that Aizen used KS like that? Everytime it was used, it was himself being somewhere or in place of another. Not anyone else. Again, show me where it happened that way. I'll take back my statement and admit I'm wrong. But to my knowledge it hasn't been done that way.

kkck
May 25, 2010, 03:54 PM
More like there is a limit on KS. I haven't seen him use it so that OTHER's aren't what they appear. The only time we see something like that work is with Aizen using it as himself, appearing in one place but being in another. I've never seen KS be used to show another character in one place but be in another. Like Gin or Tousen. When has it been shown that Aizen used KS like that? Everytime it was used, it was himself being somewhere or in place of another. Not anyone else. Again, show me where it happened that way. I'll take back my statement and admit I'm wrong. But to my knowledge it hasn't been done that way.

We know that KS can control the senses to the utmost extreme so I don´t see why we should believe he can´t do that. We know how KS works and it makes perfect sense it´d work in that way. Technically speaking, the burden of proof is on you. Now, worth noting:
http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/176/11/
http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/315.1/007/
KS can in fact be used on others to make their appearance change to others. Knowing KS can in fact be used to change how other people look, sound or feel, why do we have any conceivable reason to assume KS can´t be used in any way aizen desires to the advantage of his teammates? Another, even better, example.
http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/371/12-13/
Barragan was completely oblivious to his servants being killed. Do we have any reason to assume gin or tousen could not walk up to him and slash him into 100000 tiny pieces while barragan was under the illusion? Do we have any reason to believe there was a limitation which stopped gin from using his bankai to reduce barragan to dust?

There is not a shred of manga evidence to suggest KS is any less of everything it has been said to be.

freshseth83
May 25, 2010, 04:07 PM
those links didn't prove anything. I stated, and I'll say again, where in the manga has it shown that KS can be used as another person being shown as someone else? For example: does Gin appear to look like Tousen? Does Hinamori appear to look like Kira?

As far as weve seen the effects of KS in that sense are limited to where AIZEN is supposed to be. Not where someone else is supposed to be. The time on the hill in SS, Komamura still saw Tousen, but THOUGHT he saw Aizen next to Tousen. But he didn't. That was Aizen, not Tousen changing his position. In TBTP arc, again, that was AIZEN they were supposed to see, not someone else. If KS were to be used the way you think, why not have Shinji appear as someone else? It was Aizen that appeared to be someone else. And the last example you gave about him tricking Barragan, I don't see the relevance, but I'll bite anyway. You have to see HIS SWORD to be under it's effect. Tousen and Gin cutting up hollows has nothing to do with an illusion that has yet to even take place.

exacta
May 25, 2010, 04:16 PM
Tousen's bankai takes time to activate as seen here
http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/146/07/
and here
http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/146/08/
That is more than enough time for someone as fast as shunsui to attack tousen. Or even moreso, he can just escape the sphere
You act as if shunsui will wait around for tousen to make the first move.
<hr noshade size="1">

"eclipsed mere pure shinigami captains", so he is stronger than yamamoto? Aizen? I don't think so. Again, everyone and everything has limits. Just b/c he exceeded and push over his shinigami limits does not make him stronger than someone with just pure shinigami limits.

It is nothing but an assumption

Shunsui has never shown great speed against high tier opponents. Couldn't even effectively runaway from Stark's ceros, Ukitake had to save his ass. Shunsui certainly isn't on a different level of speed in comparison to the other captains. With the mask, Tousen would definitely have him beat. In the high tier, speed is not what would put Shunsui above other characters.

kkck
May 25, 2010, 04:28 PM
It has been stated KS can be used to make the victim´s perception change so that anything can look, feel and smell like anything else. The barragan example is relevant because he made every hollow along with gin and tousen appear to remain alive even though they were being killed by the second by the two former captains.Basically, the gin and tousen besides aizen were illusions, clones and so was every other hollow around until aizen took the illusion away. The real former captains and the hollows were basically invisible to barragan the whole time. Aizen not using the illusion in the exact same way and in the same context you suggest does not prove anything at all, its not even an argument, considering what we have seen more than heavily suggests aizen can make his illusion distort anything in any way he pleases when he pleases -even when not holding the sword or even releasing it at the fight-.
[hr]

Shunsui has never shown great speed against high tier opponents. Couldn't even effectively runaway from Stark's ceros, Ukitake had to save his ass. Shunsui certainly isn't on a different level of speed in comparison to the other captains. With the mask, Tousen would definitely have him beat. In the high tier, speed is not what would put Shunsui above other characters.

I don´t think the diference in speed between captains is all that significant but I do think shunsui has shown at least decent speed. Surely he was not fast enough to sneak up on aizen and even with ukitake he seemed to be on the wrong side of the fight when matched against yamamoto but he did do extremely well against starrk at certain points. We saw bankai ichigo and hitsugaya against ulquiorra. grimmjow and harribel for instance. Ichigo was of roughly the same speed of sealed ulquiorra and grimmjow with bankai and hitsugaya was forced to long range combat against harribel simply because he could not keep up. On the other hand, shunsui could match sealed starrk without showing any signs of being at a disadvantage. Surely we later found out starrk was actually a long range fighter (guns and wolves) but I do think shunsui showed more than impressive speed. I don´t think there is a higer tier than that, only aizen and yama would be above him but it´d be kinda unfair to compare him to the considering how beastlike they are.

Raizen
May 25, 2010, 05:10 PM
Shunsui has never shown great speed against high tier opponents. Couldn't even effectively runaway from Stark's ceros, Ukitake had to save his ass. Shunsui certainly isn't on a different level of speed in comparison to the other captains. With the mask, Tousen would definitely have him beat. In the high tier, speed is not what would put Shunsui above other characters.
Umm, are u kidding?
http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/155/08/

And he was able to keep up with someone as quick and powerful as starks.
http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/313/14/
http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/313/15/
http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/313/16/
Shunsui's speed is clearly high rank

You say tousen can beat shunsui yet u have nothing to back up your argument. Tousen is slow
[hr]
@ kio, if we are to blame things on PIS then all of teh manga would qualify for PIS

En Yang Ji
May 25, 2010, 05:13 PM
How would Shunsui or Ukitake counter KS?

Raizen
May 25, 2010, 05:25 PM
Okay last post, too much time here.

If they are not under KS at teh beginning, they can possibly win. KS is stated to be like a ritual. It takes time that is why it is not fit to be used during a battle. That is why aizen couldn't release KS on isshin b/c he didn't ahve the time or chance

En Yang Ji
May 25, 2010, 05:27 PM
The TC stated they were under KS at the beginning of the fight.

Hystzen
May 25, 2010, 05:40 PM
im gona throw this in a few pages late.

people saying yamma could stop or handle gins bankai because ichigo is able to block it?

seriously i know it been a long time but HIS BANKAI IS BUILT FOR SPEED so yes ichigo can block it. kubo has not shown his speed really and this battle is showing his speed look at what we got.... we got a bankai that attacks highest speed we seen so far...and we got the perfect counter a bankai that is compressed speed.

so saying yamma is safe from gins bankai or even some of other characters in bleach can block gins bankai coz ichigo can block it means nothing.

hehe late reply :p

freshseth83
May 25, 2010, 06:24 PM
So Ichigo is faster than the best Shinigami?

Your point makes no sense. Ichigo speed compressed? The same Ichigo that couldn't even keep up with Ulquiorra? Ok. Lets look at what we have here, Ichigo who's 16 years old, learned Bankai about a month ago, and Yama, who's at least 2000 years old and has learned EVERY Shinigami skill there is.

Yeah, Yama is faster than Ichigo, much stronger as well. If there was anyway for Gin to beat Yama, he'd have done it. I guess you skipped the chapters where WW was pounding on him with all his might, and Yama asked if he was done. lol, Yama pretty muched laughed at WW's attacks, but you think Gin can do something to him? Weve seen him conjure up enough energy to blast Aizen to ashes even AFTER Aizen stabbed him through the stomach.

Gin would have NO way to beat Yama. He's simply too skilled. Kyoraku and Ukitake are much faster than people say or give credit for. They escaped from the hill in relatively quick fashion. They didn't even go as fast as they could because of Nanao-Chan behind. We seen that Shunsui could go probably that whole distance in one damn step, but they couldn't escape Gin's bankai? Please, like they'd even give him the chance to use it. Hitsugaya was even with Gin in SS, you think Shunsui and Juushiro are on a lower level than Hitsugaya?

Please tell me you don't.

Random101
May 25, 2010, 07:16 PM
seriously i know it been a long time but HIS BANKAI IS BUILT FOR SPEED so yes ichigo can block it. kubo has not shown his speed really and this battle is showing his speed look at what we got.... we got a bankai that attacks highest speed we seen so far...and we got the perfect counter a bankai that is compressed speed.
His bankai not 60 chapters ago proved to have slower reactions and movement capability to bloody Orihime. Compounded with a bunch of other things that negate his previously established speed over the course of this arc. Granted, it WAS built for speed, but lately he quite simply hasn't been even remotely fast both feat wise and presentation wise.

poobert
May 26, 2010, 06:09 AM
Yama can not dodge Gin's bankai when it has already fired and is aimed square at his chest. No one can. But that situation will never happen. Yama will just kill him before he goes bankai, or speed out of the way and spam fire on him.

However, factor in Illusions, and everyone will be at the mercy of Gins bankai. Only perhaps Yama could grab the sword as it stabs him, but if Gin uses his special move that extends and contracts the sword in an instant, no one can do anything.

Gin's bankai is the fastest thing we have ever seen and will ever see. But it can still be beaten, if some thought goes in to it. Without Aizen, it should be possible for even Uki and Shunsui if they go bankai, but again, the illusions make this a loosing fight.

If Yama can kill Aizen before Gin and Tousen get going, then SS breezes to a win. But if Gin and Aizen team up right at the start, with invisible sniping, it will basically end up as 3 versus Yama. And I think Yama would loose.

DEATHBOTT
May 26, 2010, 08:28 AM
Okay last post, too much time here.

If they are not under KS at teh beginning, they can possibly win. KS is stated to be like a ritual. It takes time that is why it is not fit to be used during a battle. That is why aizen couldn't release KS on isshin b/c he didn't ahve the time or chance
it didnt take long with barragan.

poobert
May 26, 2010, 12:03 PM
it didnt take long with barragan.

Yeh, I think you just have to show the sword to someone and say the release command. I think the problem with the Isshin fight was that Aizen was just stalling for a while because he knew that the Hogyoku was just about finished. Why bother fighting someone seriously when in a few seconds you can iddqd/idkfa your way out of it.

Raizen
May 26, 2010, 01:00 PM
How much time do u think passed with barragan? Aizen asked him to look at the sword, took it out, entered a pose and then kept talking and talking. That must have taken a few minutes. Those minutes won't happen in a heated battle

poobert
May 26, 2010, 01:24 PM
Yeh but while he was talking, Gin and Tousen were slaughtering his hollows. It doesn't take a captain long to release. In the same way that Shinji simply releases, you smell it, it does the trick, Aizen releases, you see it, you are hypnotised.

Aizen and Unohana have said that all you need to do is witness the release.... Apart from the first time Ichigo went bankai, releasing a certain stage of a zanpakto takes all of half a second.

Raizen
May 26, 2010, 01:37 PM
Gin and tousen are on a completely different level than those lowly hollows. How long do u think it will take to kill them?

Aizen referred to his release as a ritual. Ritual takes time. The time that he talked to barragan as i have pointed out should have lasted for some minutes. So it is not instant.

Your last paragraph doesn't really help your case. It could take longer for KS to release. Of course both aizen and unohana would say that. What else would they call the ritual other then the release. That statement says nothing about teh time

En Yang Ji
May 26, 2010, 02:04 PM
You think Barragan was looking at Aizen's sword the whole time Aizen was talking to him? This is what happened:

1. Aizen told Barragan to look at his sword
2. He put his sword in front of him
3. He started talking, than put his sword to his side

Why would Aizen put his sword to the side if he wanted Barragan to continue looking at it? Also why would Aizen than start talking? Barragan is likely to look at Aizen's face, not KS when he puts his sword to the side and starts talking.

freshseth83
May 26, 2010, 05:45 PM
Simply seeing the sword after the chant puts you under the spell. Regardless, Yama defeated the illusions. You really think a fast Bankai like Gin's will do anything significant to Yama? The guy who ate a sword to the belly from Aizen then continued to squeeze his arm so hard he drew blood? All the while charging his attack of fire towards them. So Gin has an indefeatable Bankai? And stabs will just automatically kill Yama? Yama's own fire couldn't even kill him, why would some blade no matter how fast it is do that? Like I said, read the manga, use the facts. Yama has taken a beating, swords through him, WW's punches to his bare body, and just sat there and ate all of it, then asked if WW was done.

Like Yama said, do you really think you could beat me without Ryujin-Jakka? He is CAPTAIN COMMANDER, he has mastered all Shinigami arts. His stats are maxed in every department but his strength because of his age.

Hyst you talk about crack, but it seems you're theory is cracked. If Gin can go ahead and poke holes through yama's heart, head or whatever, how come he hasn't done that to begin with? The point is he can't. In fact, he can't even do it to Ichigo, so what makes you think he can do it to Yama who is Ichigo's senior by two millennium?

Yeah like I said before, and will say again, use the Manga facts.

kkck
May 26, 2010, 08:59 PM
^You make is sound as if yamamoto had majin buu's body lol. Just so you know, HE DOES NOT, trust me on that one. Certainly yamamoto can take a beating, hell, any shinigami can take a stab in the gut and to some extent continue fighting but the damage does pile up and it does get to them at some point. Certainly one stab in the gut won't do much to yamamoto (it does depend exactly where it hits though, for instance aizen got yama in kinda to the side where by shinigami standards is as good as negligible). In this case, yama and co would be facing gins bankai or resurreccion tousen while covered by the illusion.

freshseth83
May 26, 2010, 09:10 PM
I think I know who Majin Buu is, thanks though.

Where do you come off saying Yama would be facing Gin and Tousen by himself? I thought this was a fight of Shunsui Jyuushiro and Yama vs Gin Tousen and Aizen? Or did I see Yama vs. Gin Tousen and Aizen?

According to some posts they completely negate Shunsui and Jyuushiro like Gin and Tousen are beyond them. The same Gin that can't seem to even hit Ichigo with his 'super fast bankai', and the same Tousen which got stabbed in the back of the head by Hisagi, a vice captain. But I guess were ignoring those facts now aren't we? Ressureccion Tousen is super right? But he was beaten by his VC. And Gin is just so fast he can blanket Yama with multiple stabs right? But he still has yet to even hit Ichigo.

So is Ichigo's speed is greater than Yama's? And is Hisagi's skills better than Shunsui and Jyuushiro?

kkck
May 26, 2010, 09:17 PM
I thought this thread had it implied that tousen's insanity was not a factor. As long as that is the case then he has something as good as byakuyan considering that his lack of sight would imply his ability to detect thins works the same in every direction.

I don't think ichigo is faster than yamamoto in any form but I do think dodging his bankai while it is concealed by an illusion would be troublesome. Dodging los nueve aspectos would also be troublesome considering its wide area of effect.

I also did not say yama would be fighting everyone by himself. The illusion can easily be used to cover his allies and make openings here, I do think in a fight where aizen would lean towards teamwork and not cut down those he deems as useless he would do a tad differently.

I also never implied anything about your knowledge of majin buu, I merely pointed out yama does not have his special properties.

freshseth83
May 26, 2010, 09:28 PM
All the points you make have a plausible counterpoint that I can make.

Tousen uses a Bankai but hasn't used it in conjuction with his mask. No one but Ichigo has been shown to do that. So that point is gone. It's either or, not both. Making up scenarios for characters that has never happened shouldn't even be considered.

Another thing that I replied to you about before, the fact that you say Aizen can use illusions to make his allies seem to be somewhere else. That hasn't been shown in the manga. His statement might make it SEEM like he can control what you see, but so far in the manga the only thing that has changed is the perception of Aizen himself. Not other characters. The Hinamori example was as close as you can get, but looking at it closely, Hinamori was really Aizen, and Aizen was really Hinamori. There was no Gin was Hinamori, or Tousen was Hinamori. It always has to deal with Aizen himself in the illusion. Back in TBTP arc, Aizen was supposed to follow Shinji. But it wasn't Aizen it was such and such. It was Jim bob down the street was following Shinji. So every time weve seen Aizen use a substitute person has been as himself.

It would seem that Aizen can only trade places with someone. And not make it seem like someone else besides him has a likeness of another character. Get it?

kkck
May 26, 2010, 09:37 PM
I never said anything about tousen bankai. Quite frankly, I'd question whether he even has one nowadays.

What about the barragan case? Did he not conceal his allies along with all of barragans subordinates? Why could he not do something similar? We really have no reason to assume otherwise.

freshseth83
May 27, 2010, 01:24 AM
Not sure what you mean about Barragan's case.

poobert
May 27, 2010, 04:20 AM
All the points you make have a plausible counterpoint that I can make.

Tousen uses a Bankai but hasn't used it in conjuction with his mask. No one but Ichigo has been shown to do that. So that point is gone. It's either or, not both. Making up scenarios for characters that has never happened shouldn't even be considered.

Another thing that I replied to you about before, the fact that you say Aizen can use illusions to make his allies seem to be somewhere else. That hasn't been shown in the manga. His statement might make it SEEM like he can control what you see, but so far in the manga the only thing that has changed is the perception of Aizen himself. Not other characters. The Hinamori example was as close as you can get, but looking at it closely, Hinamori was really Aizen, and Aizen was really Hinamori. There was no Gin was Hinamori, or Tousen was Hinamori. It always has to deal with Aizen himself in the illusion. Back in TBTP arc, Aizen was supposed to follow Shinji. But it wasn't Aizen it was such and such. It was Jim bob down the street was following Shinji. So every time weve seen Aizen use a substitute person has been as himself.

It would seem that Aizen can only trade places with someone. And not make it seem like someone else besides him has a likeness of another character. Get it?

Ichigo is a vizard until we are told otherwise. If he can use his mask and bankai at the same time, so can all vizards. Until someone says that they can't, we have to take it as true. Tousen has shown us his mask, he has shown us his bankai. He can do both.

To start making up bankai's for characters would be making things up, but to use two of their moves together, especially when we have seen other characters do it, is totally legitimate.

And what is this about Aizen's illusions not affecting others? Did he not hide all of the hollows and gin and tousen from Barragan? The only thing that remained untouched by his illusions was himself.

Aizen has never ever mentioned a limit of his illusions. You can't just make up something like this from scratch.

He can easily make Gin and Tousen look like they are not moving. By a few seconds later, Gin can stab both shunsui and Uki a hundred times with his bankai, before they even figure it out. If you don't know that attack is coming, you can't dodge it. Ditto for yama.

kkck
May 27, 2010, 05:14 AM
Not sure what you mean about Barragan's case.

Not sure what you don't get. Did we not see aizen completely changing the scenery from barragan's perspective? Aizen basically had a number of clones of everyone there while the real ones were basically invisible while doing their own thing. Come on, you saw the whole thing....
[hr]

Ichigo is a vizard until we are told otherwise. If he can use his mask and bankai at the same time, so can all vizards. Until someone says that they can't, we have to take it as true. Tousen has shown us his mask, he has shown us his bankai. He can do both.

To start making up bankai's for characters would be making things up, but to use two of their moves together, especially when we have seen other characters do it, is totally legitimate.

And what is this about Aizen's illusions not affecting others? Did he not hide all of the hollows and gin and tousen from Barragan? The only thing that remained untouched by his illusions was himself.

Aizen has never ever mentioned a limit of his illusions. You can't just make up something like this from scratch.

He can easily make Gin and Tousen look like they are not moving. By a few seconds later, Gin can stab both shunsui and Uki a hundred times with his bankai, before they even figure it out. If you don't know that attack is coming, you can't dodge it. Ditto for yama.

While I do think the vizards can easily use mask and bankai -I do think they would get tired quickly though-, the same thing is perhaps not the same for tousen. The guy had a resurreccion, an entirely different type of release which is a combination of hollow and shinigami powers. Not much evidence for or against that but I would find it a tad awkward if he could use both.

I don't really think there are any severe limitations to KS though, so I don't see any reason for aizen to not conceal his allies.

poobert
May 27, 2010, 07:34 AM
I actually agree. I am not sure he can use his ressurection at the same time as his bankai, but I am certain that he can use his mask.

His ressurection is a numbered move of his zanpakto, same as his bankai. But this is because your resurection uses your zanpkato to release your true power. Simply putting on a mask is just using your hollow powers.

Tousen did not call out a number to use his mask like he did his ressurection. The mask is accessing your hollow powers only. It does not interfere with your zanpakto like a ressurection does.

I simply had an issue with fresh saying that you can't use mask and bankai at the same time. Ressurection is still an unknown factor when it comes it Shinigami. Some people think that neo ichigo is his ressurection, in which case you can still use bankai, but I personally think we should reserve judgement for a while.

Raizen
May 27, 2010, 12:57 PM
^You make is sound as if yamamoto had majin buu's body lol. Just so you know, HE DOES NOT, trust me on that one. Certainly yamamoto can take a beating, hell, any shinigami can take a stab in the gut and to some extent continue fighting but the damage does pile up and it does get to them at some point. Certainly one stab in the gut won't do much to yamamoto (it does depend exactly where it hits though, for instance aizen got yama in kinda to the side where by shinigami standards is as good as negligible). In this case, yama and co would be facing gins bankai or resurreccion tousen while covered by the illusion.
Just wanted to take another stab at teh vizards considering they all fell to tousen with one hit LOL :tem
[hr]

Ichigo is a vizard until we are told otherwise. If he can use his mask and bankai at the same time, so can all vizards. Until someone says that they can't, we have to take it as true. Tousen has shown us his mask, he has shown us his bankai. He can do both.

To start making up bankai's for characters would be making things up, but to use two of their moves together, especially when we have seen other characters do it, is totally legitimate.

And what is this about Aizen's illusions not affecting others? Did he not hide all of the hollows and gin and tousen from Barragan? The only thing that remained untouched by his illusions was himself.

Aizen has never ever mentioned a limit of his illusions. You can't just make up something like this from scratch.

He can easily make Gin and Tousen look like they are not moving. By a few seconds later, Gin can stab both shunsui and Uki a hundred times with his bankai, before they even figure it out. If you don't know that attack is coming, you can't dodge it. Ditto for yama.
I don't think his shikai can work that way. If it can what will stop aizen from walking around SS murdering ANY captain in his way. Why not right? What was the whole point of the espadas, teh arrancar arc, running from SS, modding WW, fusing w/ hokyoku, wanting to be stronger, etc. The fact is, aizen doesn't think it is plausible to do that. If it was he would have done so.

Why no do it against unohana when he faced her? How about against the captain at teh start of the war, etc.

As for teh barrgan thing, it is not neccessarily an illusions. Gin and tousen were completely much stronger then those hollows. Of course tehy can kill them all that quickly

poobert
May 27, 2010, 03:04 PM
Well, he is not going to walk around murdering people because it is still possible to stop him. (not to mention that it wouldn't make a great story... he should have just killed hitsu outright, but he didn't. He should have killed the captains, but instead he said junk about letting them live so they can watch... all general bad guy cliché's. Instead of stabbing yama in the gut, he should have just poked his head. In fact, he always does body blows instead of pulling a hisagi.. all for the plot I think).

He is not invincible by any means. I bet that top tier captains like Shunsui and especially Unohana can do the same thing yama did and grab his arm when his sword is in their gut. And of course, just being around Yama is dangerous. Not to mention that Gin also said something about people being able to counter it (maybe a zanpakto ability we have not seen).

If I am right, his quest for power is to defeat the zero guard. The espada were just hogyoku practice, or maybe practice to make wonderweiss. He said he doesn't rely on subordinates, so it was never that he needed them.

That is why if Aizen goes at this fight alone, he will probably loose. However, Aizen has the best defence out of every single shinigami (illusions), which can be bestowed on other people. Trying to fight Aizen and Tousen, while you have a maniacal invisible dude with a machine gun running around is not safe.

----

We still don't know Aizen's goal either. If he wants to be king, he needs to be king of something right? Maybe that is what he meant when he thanked yama for shielding that blast. I don't think he can kill all the shinigami without disrupting the balance of souls on Earth. The gotei 13 must always exist to ferry souls or whatever their job is. The captains are needed, even if Aizen was to be king, he will need them to keep the balance. (pure speculation mind you)

kkck
May 27, 2010, 04:16 PM
Just wanted to take another stab at teh vizards considering they all fell to tousen with one hit LOL :tem

The vizards were not stabbed though. The vizards were slashed after taking hollow kensei and having their senses taken away by tousen. Even ulquiorra with his HSR admitted defeat after receiving a regular slash from hollow ichigo. A character can receive a good stab and continue fighting with what would appear to be marginal damage but a good slash basically puts anyone out of commission (take starrk for instance, he tanked through shunsui´s stab but his slash defeated him).

Raizen
May 27, 2010, 05:37 PM
@ poobert, story telling or not, it HAS to make sense. If aizen could so easily walk around SS using KS and having gin kill people it would have happened. But it didn't.

@kkck Kensei was stabbed and I'd say kensei is tougher then all the vizards except maybe shinji. Fact is, they were down by one slash. Kenpachi has endured much more, byakuya took multiple slashes against ichigo, shunsui took starks most powerful slash, etc.

Ulqui was dominated by ichigo the whole time. And shunsui deliver starks teh strongest slash possible w/ his color game. So it is not just a regular slash.

freshseth83
May 27, 2010, 05:42 PM
I don't think Starrk 'tanked' through Shunsui's stab. He was clearly hurt, that's why he was holding the wound. It might not have done SERIOUS damage, but it did damage nonetheless. Shunsui killed him in 1 slash though. That's a lot stronger than what Tousen did with his slashes, he merely disabled the vizards. Shunsui KILLED Starrk with his Slash across the chest. I put it down to reiatsu.

There is holes in the story. Aizen was able to make an illusion of the central 46 right? I forgot about that, but then again if he could do that why wouldn't he just make an illusion world for everyone? Again there is ways to 'see' through it, even he said it. If you know Aizen well enough, you can catch him out there. I think Yama deducted through this and through the sense of the reiatsu of the blade. If it weren't Aizen he wouldn't have felt the reiatsu of the blade. It has said the 5 senses can be confused, but did it say KS can affect reiatsu as well? Maybe it can give a false sense of reiatsu, but I think the skill and age and knowledge of Yama prevented him from being fooled. That case could be made for other senior captains, but can it be done? I doubt we'll ever know for sure.

Raizen
May 27, 2010, 05:46 PM
Aizen didn't make an illusion of central 46. What he did was manipulate the hell butterflies to make it look like C46 was still giving orders. No one entered teh chambers of C46 until hitsu.

As for KS, i don't think it can affect reiatsu, that is only tousen's bankai

freshseth83
May 27, 2010, 06:03 PM
Aizen didn't make an illusion of central 46. What he did was manipulate the hell butterflies to make it look like C46 was still giving orders. No one entered teh chambers of C46 until hitsu.

As for KS, i don't think it can affect reiatsu, that is only tousen's bankai

ok, i was wonderring, it's been a while since i read up on those chapters, so it doesn't look like he can make illusions of areas unless it is himself. I thought as much. Everytime he has used it in battle it has been a switch of HIMSELF, not another character appearing as someone else, or somewhere else. Only himself appearing as such, am I correct?

Raizen
May 27, 2010, 06:06 PM
That is what i was thinking too. People think that aizen can use the illusions to mask other people due to what happened during the barrgan invasion but i saw that as gin and tousen being much stronger then those hollows, not that the illusions were used

freshseth83
May 27, 2010, 06:18 PM
Yeah they didn't look like especially powerful hollows or anything, just one's that were gathered in his court.

Hystzen
May 27, 2010, 06:32 PM
the main intrest with that scene is how gin and tousen acutally work together and it looks fast they butchered them with speed so if all 3 of them could work in a team it be dangerous.

gins attack speed.
aizens kido
hollow tousen for speed and strength

it kinda covers all basic techs

poobert
May 27, 2010, 06:36 PM
http://beta.onemanga.com/Bleach/171/12/

It is complete hypnosis. Complete. Not special Aizen only hypnosis.

Dragon out of a fly, field of flowers out of a swamp, not just someone in to Aizen and Aizen in to someone else. It is not exactly an ambiguous statement.

You seriously need to read the manga again.

http://beta.onemanga.com/Bleach/371/11/

Look what he says. Shatter. This is what he said when he showed Unohana that his sword was actually his corpse. It is the release hypnosis command. Aizen didn't move, Barragan seemed shocked, all those hollows were all of a sudden dead.

Conclusion? Barragan couldn't see Gin or Tousen kill his hollows. I really don't see how it can be anything else.

Raizen
May 27, 2010, 06:44 PM
Again, it begs teh question of why he didn't take that course of action w/ SS if it is as simple as u so put it? Why go through all that trouble. Aizen himself stated finding teh espadas were trouble. Why not walk through SS and use GIn to stab everyone in the head with ks?

Unohana was already under KS so the time for the ritual no longer matters. I am talking about the initial ritual

Hystzen
May 27, 2010, 06:50 PM
Again, it begs teh question of why he didn't take that course of action w/ SS if it is as simple as u so put it? Why go through all that trouble. Aizen himself stated finding teh espadas were trouble. Why not walk through SS and use GIn to stab everyone in the head with ks?

Unohana was already under KS so the time for the ritual no longer matters. I am talking about the initial ritual

it was aizens mind games

think bout it the SS were sure they were doing what the c46 wanted finding out that one man could kill and control everything would mess with the gotei 13s head...next step was get the houg and make a few experiments to embrasses the gotei 13 even more by beating yamma . it aizen trying to show that nothing can stop him so dont waste your lives and give up....well that my idea anywayz :D

exacta
May 28, 2010, 10:52 PM
Umm, are u kidding?
http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/155/08/

And he was able to keep up with someone as quick and powerful as starks.
http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/313/14/
http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/313/15/
http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/313/16/
Shunsui's speed is clearly high rank

You say tousen can beat shunsui yet u have nothing to back up your argument. Tousen is slow
<hr noshade size="1">
@ kio, if we are to blame things on PIS then all of teh manga would qualify for PIS

http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/384/06/
http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/213/14/
http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/371/05/

Tousen ain't slow. Tousen ain't weak either. Do I really have to back this up? Can't you just....read the chapters where Tousen hollowifies, and then transforms, and then proceeds to overpower( and when I say overpower I mean physical strength) Komamura's Bankai???

Although we have yet to see Shunsui's Bankai, based on all we've seen from Tousen and how huge the gap was between him in Komamura was once he transformed, coupled with his hax Bankai, I could easily see him beat Shunsui( with hollow powers, without, I'd be unsure). I know Komamura is weaker than Shunsui overall most likely, but it's not like Shunsui could one shot Komamura, and stop his attacks with his hands.

At least you said Stark was strong. Stark gave him quite a bit of trouble though, I wouldn't say he did an amazing job of keeping up.
http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/374/13/
http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/362/17/

Not a bad job though. I'd say cunning was what Shunsui had over Stark in that battle.

Random101
May 28, 2010, 11:08 PM
Tousen was overpowering in ressurection state. In vizard state he was fast no doubt, but not so fast that Koma couldn't keep up with him, and he wasn't remotely overpowering. And in said ressurection state I think it's rather simple enough to say that it's incredibly doubtful that he can use bankai with it, as his sword no longer exists thanks to it.

Pete4r
May 28, 2010, 11:45 PM
Gin bankai will easy destroy all of them (Yamamoto/Kyouraku/Ukitake) :D

freshseth83
May 29, 2010, 02:13 AM
Gin bankai will easy destroy all of them (Yamamoto/Kyouraku/Ukitake) :D

Then it should have easily destroyed Ichigo. But it hasn't. Like I've said before. Shunsui and Juushiro are much too fast to sit there and let Gin poke them with his sword. WW did catch Juushiro off guard, but Juushiro doesn't fight kids. And even Yama says he's a kid, but when he released or transformed or whatever, he didn't appear to be a kid anymore, Yama said he won't have any regrets in beating him to a pulp.

Did we forget about Yama? The guy with the super torch for a shikai? The guy that trapped Aizen Gin and Tousen in the fire. I think the reason he didn't torch them then and there was that it would take a significant amount of power from Ryujin-Jakka to beat all three of them then and there. That power could possibly have ruined the barrier protecting Fake KT.

Without that barrier or that concern or the concern of roasting everyone else, I'd say Yama can easily toast gin and tousen into a crisp. Back in SS when Shunsui and Juushiro ran, Shunsui said if they fought on the hill up there that EVERYONE would die. Whether he meant himself and Juushiro or whether he meant everone around is to be debatable but I assume either or it's safe to say Yama can scorch a BIIIG area.

DEATHBOTT
August 02, 2010, 10:02 PM
gin's bankai now makes it certain for me his team can win. aizan/gin or tousan/gin for the win.

freshseth83
August 04, 2010, 12:44 AM
Lets hold off and see if it even works against Aizen first. Regardless, he still has to get a hit or a stab. That's not going to be easy against anyone, let alone the top 3 captains.

vizardichigo
August 04, 2010, 12:54 AM
Yama alone could take Aizen and severly damage Tousen and Gin as well..Even if Yama dies then Aizen is gone....Between Kyoraku and ukitake they could beat Gin and Tousen easily if they were already injured. So team Yama wins

DEATHBOTT
August 04, 2010, 03:07 AM
Yama alone could take Aizen and severly damage Tousen and Gin as well..Even if Yama dies then Aizen is gone....Between Kyoraku and ukitake they could beat Gin and Tousen easily if they were already injured. So team Yama wins

shunsui and jushiro might be able to beat them if they both had bankai but op siad they only have shikai. tousan bankai could blind them leaving gin to finish them off one by one.

a possible strategy for aizan would be to mask gin as himself and have gin attack yama who will take the attack and disintergrate.
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Lets hold off and see if it even works against Aizen first. Regardless, he still has to get a hit or a stab. That's not going to be easy against anyone, let alone the top 3 captains.

if they are blind and or under hypnosis gin should be atleast able to hit them in a non vital area which would still kill them. if he is telling the truth about his bankai.

freshseth83
August 07, 2010, 01:56 AM
If Yama countered the illusions, i'm sure he'd instruct his students to do the same. I don't think they need instruction, they're the best in his opinion. Tousen used his bankai against Kenpachi and still didn't win. Tousen aint great IMO and neither is gin. Tousen was just a follower, weak in resolve and obeyed Aizen like a puppy. His strengths aren't that great either. Sure his bankai is good, but he'll need to activate it quick before Shunsui and Juushiro take him out. Juushiro caught Byakuya's hand when he was about to kill Hinatoro and co. He wasn't anywhere in sight. Byakuya didn't even realize he was there. I'm betting his speed had to do with that, he could easily take Tousen and Shunsui could take Gin, while Yama handles Aizen. Just my opinion

DEATHBOTT
August 07, 2010, 03:24 AM
If Yama countered the illusions, i'm sure he'd instruct his students to do the same. I don't think they need instruction, they're the best in his opinion. Tousen used his bankai against Kenpachi and still didn't win. Tousen aint great IMO and neither is gin. Tousen was just a follower, weak in resolve and obeyed Aizen like a puppy. His strengths aren't that great either. Sure his bankai is good, but he'll need to activate it quick before Shunsui and Juushiro take him out. Juushiro caught Byakuya's hand when he was about to kill Hinatoro and co. He wasn't anywhere in sight. Byakuya didn't even realize he was there. I'm betting his speed had to do with that, he could easily take Tousen and Shunsui could take Gin, while Yama handles Aizen. Just my opinion

yama countered the illusion by letting aizan stab him. if he does that then he screwed because like i said aizan could easily make gin appear as him and if yama lets gin stab him then he boned.
tousan would have beaten kenpachi if he had tried to on the first attack. only reason he lost is because he played with him. without bankai i just dont think yama, shunsui and ukitake can pull this off. gin bankai is perfect for teaming with aizan or tousan, both blind the opponents senses giveing gin a chance to use his one hit kill move.

freshseth83
August 09, 2010, 03:44 AM
Aizen could do nothing when the fire surrounded him. All Yama has to do is do the same thing but heat it up a few notches and tell Shunsui and Juushiro to back away- all 3 of em are cooked at once. We seen this in the manga- only when WW blew the fire away did Aizen and Co. have the chance to do anything. I'm only being fair by saying other scenarios could take place. In reality this is all Yama has to do.

DEATHBOTT
August 09, 2010, 04:10 AM
Aizen could do nothing when the fire surrounded him. All Yama has to do is do the same thing but heat it up a few notches and tell Shunsui and Juushiro to back away- all 3 of em are cooked at once. We seen this in the manga- only when WW blew the fire away did Aizen and Co. have the chance to do anything. I'm only being fair by saying other scenarios could take place. In reality this is all Yama has to do.
why didnt he do that then? is he an idiot?

aizan uses ks to make them think he is in there and then stabs them in the head. in realitiy thats all he has to do.