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poopoomaru
May 17, 2010, 10:54 PM
So I decided I want to go back and take a look at some arcs I never got a chance to read, the Skypiea Arc, and this guy Enel is interesting me. His bounty was said by Oda in a SBS to be, if he had one, would be as high as 500,000,000. He was nearly omnipotent, and a logia user. He sounds really crazy.

This happened awhile ago though. So really, how powerful do you think he is now compared to everything we have been seeing so far?

Roarchu
May 17, 2010, 11:15 PM
Imagine that Akainu's df was completely useless against luffy, who'd win? I'm not saying Luffy'd win, but he stands a hell lot more chance now

If I think about the plot, i don't think he can be stronger than the admirals. But when I don't consider the plot I think he definitely is up there...or maybe a little less or maybe a little more...I don't know...

If he went to the marines and said he wanted to become one they'd be like "oh shi-! let's open a 4th admiral spot for this guy!"

undertoe
May 17, 2010, 11:56 PM
His fighting power is above average, but his DF is extremely powerful. It'd take a very strong haki user to stand a chance against him.

ANBU4U
May 18, 2010, 12:15 AM
Enel was redonk. His fighting prowess was above average for sure (took more than a few Luffy blows), his DF is god class, and he is the most powerful mantra user we've seen to date. He'd almost certainly be an admiral if he were a Marine. Now would he be the weakest Admiral? IDK, maybe, but he'd certainly be an Admiral if their could be four.

Shame on you BTW, for not reading every arc.

RichardMNixon
May 18, 2010, 12:34 AM
He's a glass cannon. Luffy had him on the ground begging for mercy after two or three hits. He has logia dispersion and a hell of an attack, but Garp, Marco, or Blackbeard would beat him to a bloody pulp one on one.

Luffy straight up tells Enel he's nothing special: http://www.onemanga.com/One_Piece/282/12/ and Luffy isn't one to boast or bluff.

poopoomaru
May 18, 2010, 02:25 AM
He's a glass cannon. Luffy had him on the ground begging for mercy after two or three hits. He has logia dispersion and a hell of an attack, but Garp, Marco, or Blackbeard would beat him to a bloody pulp one on one.

Luffy straight up tells Enel he's nothing special: http://www.onemanga.com/One_Piece/282/12/ and Luffy isn't one to boast or bluff.

But Garp, Marco, and Blackbeard would all have been hit by his lightning attacks, do you think they were strong enough to be able to incapacitate or at least be effective against them? Sure they could hit him, but with Enel using mantra to always be aware of their movements and his own ridiculous offensive abilities, would they have a chance to use Haki and their incredible strength to destroy him? Yes? No?

kkck
May 18, 2010, 02:26 AM
The admirals have a combination of actual strength -not just DF power-, experience and insane DFs, that is why they are where they are. IMHO enel depends on the advantages of his fruit a lot more -has less physical capacities- and has less experience although he could make up for that with his mantra. I think enel is up there with the top of the world in strength due to his DF although I do think everyone who is considered top tier could take him -a few shichibukai, admirals, sengoku, garp and probably a few VAs other than garp-.

Ashura_Ichibugin
May 18, 2010, 02:43 AM
I can say he is slightly less powerful than the current admirals, but strong enough to be an admiral, possibly the weakest one. In my opinion, his df is the craziest one so far, better than ice, light and magma. He has complete mastery of his df, to the extent of restarting his heart using it. He has insane mantra and his physical abilities are not bad.

St Michael
May 18, 2010, 04:53 AM
Yeah his DF is impressive.

But remember that he actually killed nobody during the arc. Not even the fodder.

His logia isn't as destructive if you ask me , as the admiral's.

Yeah and he's not that tough. He would have be beaten down damn quickly during the war.

Razh
May 18, 2010, 05:03 AM
Luffy straight up tells Enel he's nothing special: http://www.onemanga.com/One_Piece/282/12/ and Luffy isn't one to boast or bluff.

Luffy doesn't have much experience sailing the seas either. It's not like he knows there are stronger people than Enel. He just believes it. Certainly not an argument on how strong Enel really is.

Anyway, I can't say that I can imagine a lot of people being able to beat him. I don't know what qualifies Blackbeard, for example. He takes too many blows. And lightning strike is not something you can just brush off. And those lightnings do come in fast.
At the very least, I'd say that he would stand a chance against anyone who's not immune to lightning. Just think off all the trouble Luffy had to go through to beat him, and he was immune to lightning attacks.

As for him falling from Luffy's attacks. Those attacks have worked equally on any opponent Luffy has met so far, flying and blood included. Luffy is crazy strong, that shouldn't be forgotten. He sent Lucci flying, he sent Blackbeard flying and he even sent Garp flying. They all bled. And yes, while Garp actually let Luffy hit him, it doesn't change the fact that he was launched to the ground by the punch.

Duc :D
May 18, 2010, 05:20 AM
It's a matter of fact that Zoro and the others all withstood enels lightning strikes, however even top tiers wouldn't fight effectively after receiving a 100.000 v blow so its again that ppl have to look how 2 powers match each others... who knows

I could imagine Kizaru and also garp to be fast enough to evade his lightining strikes so garp would beat the shit out of him and send him as a crybaby to his mama.

frontaLobotomy
May 18, 2010, 06:01 AM
Enel is insanely powerful, like all Logia users. The one drawback is that there are DFs out there that directly counter his, like the Gomu Gomu No Mi, and probably Sengoku's Daibutsu type DF as he is made of stone. On the Blue Sea, it probably would have taken an Admiral or Yonkou to take him down.

bittman
May 18, 2010, 06:40 AM
Enel's logia is mostly what makes him powerful, though Mantra backed up his fighting ability well, he was still only on par with, or slightly below, a pre-gears Luffy.

I would say that anyone who can beat Luffy now, can bypass logia intangibility and can take some lightning shots that, let's face it, aren't as powerful as they were hyped to be since really every single person hit by the electricity lived: should be able to beat Enel.

Major problem with Enel is his mental instability. The main reason Luffy was able to beat Enel was because he broke the bubble Enel lived in where he claimed himself as a God. Anyone who can get one strike on Enel instantly has a major advantage.

Also: Oda's 500mil estimation is not just battle prowess, but threat level. Enel is able to destroy entire islands with a well charged attack. Even if he was physically weaker than Ussop, if you can destroy an entire island you're pretty dam threatening. And as mentioned, Enel's mental instability would inevitably lead him to clash with many many people.

Where would I rate him? Probably around the mid-high level WB Division Commanders.

RichardMNixon
May 18, 2010, 08:03 AM
Luffy doesn't have much experience sailing the seas either. It's not like he knows there are stronger people than Enel. He just believes it. Certainly not an argument on how strong Enel really is.

Anyway, I can't say that I can imagine a lot of people being able to beat him. I don't know what qualifies Blackbeard, for example. He takes too many blows. And lightning strike is not something you can just brush off. And those lightnings do come in fast.
At the very least, I'd say that he would stand a chance against anyone who's not immune to lightning. Just think off all the trouble Luffy had to go through to beat him, and he was immune to lightning attacks.

As for him falling from Luffy's attacks. Those attacks have worked equally on any opponent Luffy has met so far, flying and blood included. Luffy is crazy strong, that shouldn't be forgotten. He sent Lucci flying, he sent Blackbeard flying and he even sent Garp flying. They all bled. And yes, while Garp actually let Luffy hit him, it doesn't change the fact that he was launched to the ground by the punch.

Whitebeard's quake isn't something you can just brush off either but Akainu and Blackbeard did. Yes, I do think the fighters at the top of the world can survive some lightning blasts and get in to hurt him. He's not the only one in the world who can predict moves, I'm sure the upper tiers are used to it. http://www.onemanga.com/One_Piece/519/12/

Luffy didn't get hurt that badly by Enel. The gold thing was obnoxious, that's about the best he did. Physically I wouldn't put him too far above Arlong. People constantly belabor how weak Moria is (even Oda has joined the fun...) and he hurt Luffy a great deal more than Enel did, and that was with gears.

I'm not complaining about him falling or bleeding. Yes, Lucci, Blueno, Croc, etc. all fell and bled, but then they immediately got back up to fight, they didn't go down like a sack of potatoes spitting up blood and begging Luffy to stop, then whimpering on the ground that they couldn't move. http://www.onemanga.com/One_Piece/281/17/

Rokushiki users can dodge Luffy's attacks with ease and even some of his gear 2 attacks. Enel WITH MANTRA often wasn't fast enough to dodge Luffy's normal attacks. His speed is limited by his subpar reflexes. His mantra might tell him Garp is coming, but he's not going to be able to do anything about it.

Fox666
May 18, 2010, 11:02 AM
One second after Enel realized his Devil Fruit is useless against Luffy, Luffy ended up like this:
http://www.onemanga.com/One_Piece/280/06/

So, that Mantra thing (Haki?) or whatever added to his Kizaru-alike Devil Fruit makes him very dangerous.

I would rank him around the Shichibukai.

RichardMNixon
May 18, 2010, 11:29 AM
One second after Enel realized his Devil Fruit is useless against Luffy, Luffy ended up like this:
http://www.onemanga.com/One_Piece/280/06/


That was 300 chapters ago, what would happen if Luffy was in Gear 2nd? Knowing an attack is coming doesn't help Enel if his reflexes aren't good enough to do anything about it, and from what we've seen, they aren't. Lucci caught Luffy's gatling without being able to see the future: Enel can't keep up with the big boys in physical prowess.

undertoe
May 18, 2010, 11:36 AM
Even Luffy has predicted attacks before... http://www.onemanga.com/One_Piece/561/05/

Think how much stronger Luffy has gotten since he defeated Enel, yet he still can't keep up with much of the world.

Franckie
May 18, 2010, 12:36 PM
Enel mastered his Logia-type DF to the same extent Crocodile mastered his. He possesses physical strength that allowed him to tank Luffy's attacks and even stop several of Luffy's assaults midway through the attack. In addition, Enel has strong AoE attacks that can destroy an entire island when amped up. Enel also has excellent reaction speed thanks to his mantra ability. The guy raped everyone he came across prior to meeting Luffy. Lastly, Oda did mention that if Enel were given a bounty, it'd be $500,000,000 berries, which is much higher than any of the current 11 Supernova bounties. Enel's power is almost legendary, or in the same tier as Jinbei and Ace.

BetaRuler
May 19, 2010, 01:03 PM
I think his powers rate him Admiral class, but his weakness is lack of experiance and especially his lack of physical pain, otherwise he'd easily be capable of becoming something like a Yonkou.

Many characters wouldn't have any tricks up their sleeves that would let them hit Enel, nor get close to Enel, the problem would be "how do you avoid getting zapped"

Would Kizaru be able to own Enel? How would light hitting Lightning work out? I'd imagine it would be like Akainu and Ace's logia's logic.

Junior
May 20, 2010, 09:34 AM
He's definitely Admiral Level in my eyes.

Calling him anything less, in my opinion, is pretty silly. The only reason why Luffy got as far as he did was because (lets face it) he was made of Rubber.

I will admit that Enel does seem to be a "Glass Cannon" as someone put it earlier. His destructive power is off the charts but he doesn't seem like...he's all that good at taking hits. Probably because under normal circumstance, with his mantra and logia abilities, he wouldn't have to. . .

I will say that I think he'd be one of the weaker Admirals overall, though.

Overall meaning...yeah he has hella AoE attacks and destructive force but I don't see him taking the kind of punishment that..lets say..Akainu took sustained from Whitebeard.

hibar90
May 23, 2010, 01:34 PM
I think any normal human would die getting hit by 20million volts. There have been reports about people getting killed by taser you know. So, I would put him in the same class as Marco.

RichardMNixon
May 23, 2010, 05:55 PM
I think any normal human would die getting hit by 20million volts. There have been reports about people getting killed by taser you know. So, I would put him in the same class as Marco.

We know Marco can hit Logia users, we don't know Enel can hit logia users or Marco's pseudo-logia. We've also seen Marco take a punch from Garp with no lasting effect, I doubt Enel could do the same.

hibar90
May 25, 2010, 02:51 PM
We know Marco can hit Logia users, we don't know Enel can hit logia users or Marco's pseudo-logia. We've also seen Marco take a punch from Garp with no lasting effect, I doubt Enel could do the same.

It may be true if you put them 1v1 fight. But, that's not the only way to rate how powerful someone is. Enel can sink a huge chuck of island with his lightning, doubt Marco can pull it off with one move. Enel problem are probably haki users, logia intangibility such as light and counter DF such as Luffy. However, other than this lightning kills. And Marco is mythical zoan Phoenix. He won't be able to recover if he got one hit with 20 million volt. Of course I'm talking with with real world sense not One Piece. I believe it was pointed out somewhere that people have survived Enel million volts. Maybe the unit has different value than real life.

Dasbones
May 25, 2010, 05:52 PM
Other than Luffy, I'd say Blackbeard would be one of the few people to utterly trounce him, since he would easily be able to survive Enel's attacks long enough to get his hands on him, and I'm sure one punch from Teach could knock him out.

chess4
May 25, 2010, 06:16 PM
enel is definitely going to make an appearance again. i think he will be one of the shichibukai. the followers he has is not really strong enough to survive in the new world. i think he is a wrecking machine and his being a ruthless shichibukai is perfect for him.

Fox666
May 25, 2010, 10:20 PM
He won't be able to recover if he got one hit with 20 million volt. Of course I'm talking with with real world sense not One Piece. I believe it was pointed out somewhere that people have survived Enel million volts. Maybe the unit has different value than real life.Well, that is "plot protection". :p If you think about it, it's completely fake the idea that rubber would not be damaged by a lightning that can destroy rocks. And the same kind of stuff goes with Aokiji freezing the Strawhats, or Akainu magma over Whitebeard chest. Or the explosions of Kizaru lasers never hit someone, only the tiny beams that never hit a vital organ... :p :p

monkey D luffy
May 29, 2010, 12:40 PM
i think that if enel is the same as he was he wont survive long against stronger people no matter how strong his DF. but take into consideretion that the same way luffy became so much stronger since then enel might have too. he might stop relying solely on his DF and strengthen his body as well. also remember that we still dont know anything about haki. maybe not all veriations of haki can negate DFs. also it will be hard to make sure enel stays down since he can jump start his heart. and lets face it he hasnt killed anyone but besides akainu who did? also it was implied that he killed people in the past. just not during the arc.

Zatono
May 29, 2010, 01:01 PM
Enel would be extremely powerful anywhere he goes, including the New World. His DF is amazing, and his physical abilities are decent as well. Coupled with his mantra, he's someone you wouldn't want to mess with. Right now, out of the SH's, only Luffy could take him.

As others have said, if he had a bounty it would be 500,000,000 and before anyone says that's just because of his destructive potential, be reminded that Luffy basically destroyed Enies Lobby, which is a pretty damn important place to the WG, and he's only at 300,000,000.

Umbra Wolf
May 30, 2010, 09:33 AM
This is the full answer Oda gave to the specific question about Enel:



D: Question!! If God Enel were to descend to the Blue Sea, how much would his bounty be? Also, what would happen if he did that? Would he rule the Blue Sea? P.N. Gorozoro

O: I see. Interesting question. Knowing how tricky he would be to beat, I'd imagine he could reach as much as 500,000,000 Beli. Luffy was lucky to be rubber. But like Luffy said, there all sorts of even crazier guys down on the Blue Sea. Enel would NOT rule it.

The bold part is even more important than the actual amount of the hypothetical bounty. he would be quite fearsome in the Blues and the Grand Line but I consider him roughly a bit over the average in the New World.
Yet don't forget that Luffy way the one person with the highest chance of defeating him power levels aside. If you were to face your natural opposite you would have a hard fight regardless.

Lord Rayleigh
May 30, 2010, 09:58 AM
The bold part is even more important than the actual amount of the hypothetical bounty. he would be quite fearsome in the Blues and the Grand Line but I consider him roughly a bit over the average in the New World.
Yet don't forget that Luffy way the one person with the highest chance of defeating him power levels aside. If you were to face your natural opposite you would have a hard fight regardless.
" Enel would not rule it " means Enel would not be a Yonkou. Remember that the Yonkou are the 4 pirates that rule the New World.
Yet, it does not mean he would not be fearsome in the New World. Of course, Enel would be able to go to the New World, and be a dangerous pirate : that's why Oda said it would be very difficult to beat him, and talked about a 500-million bounty.

chess4
May 30, 2010, 04:19 PM
" Enel would not rule it " means Enel would not be a Yonkou. Remember that the Yonkou are the 4 pirates that rule the New World.
Yet, it does not mean he would not be fearsome in the New World. Of course, Enel would be able to go to the New World, and be a dangerous pirate : that's why Oda said it would be very difficult to beat him, and talked about a 500-million bounty.

i agree, enel is a crazy man. he wouldnt hesitate to kill anyone. i think enel would be a powerhouse in a one on one battle vs anyone except for maybe the yonkou. thing is i dont see enel geeting a crew together that could survive the new world.

from what we have seen of the poerhouses,i think he could hang with the shichibukai, the admirals, and WB division commanders, so considering all that i think he is one of the strongest characters in one piece. yes i know luffy beat him, but what makes one piece so good is not necessarily the strength of a character but how they match up.

we all know enel will make a return, but the question is how? personal i think he will become a shichibukai. that would fit him perfectly, he could be a bad as he wanted and not get in trouble for it

Lord Rayleigh
May 30, 2010, 06:02 PM
And people must not forget that Enel did not have intangibility against Luffy, and that he could not injure him with his logia attacks either.
If Akainu was not intangible, and was not able to hurt people with magma, he would have been beaten quickly in the war, and Whitebeard, Ace, Curiel and Jinbei would not have been injured/killed by him.

Besides, Crocodile who was beat by Luffy before Enel - and who was able to hurt Luffy with his logia attacks unlike Enel - took an important role in this war, and held some Shichibukai and an Admiral.

Enel would definitely be one of the strongest fighters. His lighting attacks are the most destructive logia attacks shown so far. And he has the strongest mantra ever shown in One Piece, that is to say able to cover a territory as large as the Skypiea island.

hibar90
May 31, 2010, 11:47 AM
@Lord Rayleigh: I wonder why Enel didn't have his logia intangibility? We saw him getting stabbed in the head and it went through. Does rubber nullify his ability that much? Like Aokiji power would hurt ace intangibility and like wise.

THM Nindo
May 31, 2010, 01:00 PM
Enel would still rape any of the strawhat crew expect Luffy.
I think he's definitely Admiral-level, and could possibly beat Aokiji.

Dasbones
May 31, 2010, 05:14 PM
I think there is a ranking system of which logia fruits abide by, since Akainu was able to punch a hole through Ace with his magma, which in theory has a higher power ranking than fire.

Smoker's power was also evenly matched by Ace, despite their fruits two very different elements, although fire usually does produce smoke, so that gets a little confusing. I think Enel's logia power would trump most if not all other logias in terms of power, since it is pure energy. Although Kizaru's logia is light, which is also pure energy, it really depends on what you think is more powerful; light or electricity? Kizaru has a power that is far more focused than Enel's, and thus is able to produce a very destructive attack in a smaller area, such has his laser kick that toppled a giant tree. Enel's power is measurable (in the sense that we could accurately describe how much power he is outputting) so it is arguable weather or not Enel's lightning could reach a higher power level than kizaru's lasers

If I were to make a list I would rank their powers as so (although I wont rank Blackbeard, since I believe he is falsely ranked as Logia, and his power trumps all devil fruits.)

1.Enel/Kizaru
2.Akainu
3.Ace/Smoker
4.Aokiji
5.Crocodile

This list of course does not indicate actual combat ability, its more of which power would supersede the other in a one-on-one scenario

Ashura_Ichibugin
May 31, 2010, 07:23 PM
1) DF: He has an insane DF and he is arguably the one that mastered his devil fruit the most.

2) Mantra: His mantra is the strongest ever shown, enhanced by his DF.

3) Intelligence: He is quite intelligent and creative. Can adapt to unpredicted situations really fast.

4) Physical attributes: This is the one he has trouble with. If we divide it into 3 subcategories:

4.1) Speed: As he is lightning logia, he has superhuman speed.

4.2) Strength: His fighting style does not need him to be physically strong.

4.3) Endurance: This is his only real weakness together with his cockiness. Although he is comparable to admirals in some aspects, there is no way he could stand up after a hit from Whitebeard, let alone two hits like Akainu did. If his opponent can hurt logia users and can reach him, he is in trouble.

THM Nindo
June 01, 2010, 12:00 AM
I think there is a ranking system of which logia fruits abide by, since Akainu was able to punch a hole through Ace with his magma, which in theory has a higher power ranking than fire.

Smoker's power was also evenly matched by Ace, despite their fruits two very different elements, although fire usually does produce smoke, so that gets a little confusing. I think Enel's logia power would trump most if not all other logias in terms of power, since it is pure energy. Although Kizaru's logia is light, which is also pure energy, it really depends on what you think is more powerful; light or electricity? Kizaru has a power that is far more focused than Enel's, and thus is able to produce a very destructive attack in a smaller area, such has his laser kick that toppled a giant tree. Enel's power is measurable (in the sense that we could accurately describe how much power he is outputting) so it is arguable weather or not Enel's lightning could reach a higher power level than kizaru's lasers

If I were to make a list I would rank their powers as so (although I wont rank Blackbeard, since I believe he is falsely ranked as Logia, and his power trumps all devil fruits.)

1.Enel/Kizaru
2.Akainu
3.Ace/Smoker
4.Aokiji
5.Crocodile

This list of course does not indicate actual combat ability, its more of which power would supersede the other in a one-on-one scenario

I almost agree with you.
But, you're putting Smoker a lot too high!

Put him 6th, and you have it right! :tem

As for between Enel and Kizaru...
Light is faster than Thunder...

I'd put Kizaru first.

bittman
June 01, 2010, 12:21 AM
Gonna respond to a few things because I can -


@Lord Rayleigh: I wonder why Enel didn't have his logia intangibility? We saw him getting stabbed in the head and it went through. Does rubber nullify his ability that much? Like Aokiji power would hurt ace intangibility and like wise.
It's unsure how logia intangibility works, but we've rarely seen the intangibility used to "dodge", as much as it is used to allow things to bypass. It's possible that maintaining a shape that is not inherently human is very difficult for a logia user. I mean, what do you flex to put a hole in your face to dodge a punch?

Could also argue that Enel is mentally unstable and has a god complex, thus could not work out counter measures. If you think you're invincible, why would you train to do something like that?


Enel would still rape any of the strawhat crew expect Luffy.
I think he's definitely Admiral-level, and could possibly beat Aokiji.
Is that based off a bad Spoiler? If Enel could "possibly beat Aokoji", then he is "possibly stronger than WB". Aokoji and WB are both characters that most likely sit in the super tier of One Piece characters. If Enel was this level, Waipa would not have even touched him seastone or not and Luffy would be very dead.



If I were to make a list I would rank their powers as so (although I wont rank Blackbeard, since I believe he is falsely ranked as Logia, and his power trumps all devil fruits.)

1.Enel/Kizaru
2.Akainu
3.Ace/Smoker
4.Aokiji
5.Crocodile

This list of course does not indicate actual combat ability, its more of which power would supersede the other in a one-on-one scenario
I don't think you can rate logias in that way. It's more like fruits have elements, and the elements have their own strengths and weaknesses. For instance, I can't see how smoke would affect sand or Ice. Heck, for that matter how does light affect fire?

It's not a 1-100 ranking, it's more like a pokemon type chart with immunity, normal and super effective comparisons.


3) Intelligence: He is quite intelligent and creative. Can adapt to unpredicted situations really fast.

4) Physical attributes: This is the one he has trouble with. If we divide it into 3 subcategories:

4.1) Speed: As he is lightning logia, he has superhuman speed.

4.2) Strength: His fighting style does not need him to be physically strong.

4.3) Endurance: This is his only real weakness together with his cockiness. Although he is comparable to admirals in some aspects, there is no way he could stand up after a hit from Whitebeard, let alone two hits like Akainu did. If his opponent can hurt logia users and can reach him, he is in trouble.

On #3 - I must have missed where Enel was intelligent and not just insane. Enel showed me no intelligence, unless enslaving guards to build a blimp to the moon was a stroke of genius. In battle, sure he "adapted", but for someone who can predict, stab and melt gold, he was unable to really beat Luffy in a fist fight.

4.1. Yet even with all that speed, he couldn't dodge Luffy punches without predicting them. To me, Enel did not display the speed he should be "able" to, and physically he is not agile in the slightest.

4.2. That's debatable, since if he was physically stronger Luffy would have lost. In the off chance your fighting style goes to ruins, power is something you can almost always fall back on.

4.3. Yeah definitely his weakest stat here, but it kind of ties in with the entire point 4. Most of the physical attributes you mentioned that were "good" are inherited from his DF, so really you can just basically say "Enel is physically weak, and this is his major weakness".

St Michael
June 01, 2010, 04:22 AM
Ener as great powers (mantra is surely convenient) but has really some physical problems.

His logia is really nice (even if I expected thunder to actually KILL people , I guess that his logia isn't as deadly as it could be) , and he probably mastered it.
But if his intangibility fails , he's really in trouble. He can predict attacks , but against a good melee fighter he hardly manages to dodge them. And only a couple of hits are enough to bring him down.

Physically , he's probably the weakest boss since Kuro.

I highly doubt that he could beat Aokiji. Maybe if Kuzan reveals himself as a non haki user ..

Anyway .. then I saw this :


If I were to make a list I would rank their powers as so (although I wont rank Blackbeard, since I believe he is falsely ranked as Logia, and his power trumps all devil fruits.)

1.Enel/Kizaru
2.Akainu
3.Ace/Smoker
4.Aokiji
5.Crocodile

Honestly..
Ace's logia > Aokiji's ? Seriously ? Kuzan can freeze miles of water with a finger but ok , your position is acceptable.
But you have to stop with Smoker. He is the worst logia ever. He have absolutely no attacks. And since Hancock broke his precious jitte , I can hardly think of a way for him to actually harm anybody. Maybe suffocating them ?

Fox666
June 01, 2010, 05:32 AM
Magma - Unstoppable force
Light - Versatily
Lightning - Versatily
Ice - Can freeze miles of water, but the defenses are not as good
Sand - Interesting abilitities, but the defenses are not as good
Fire - Powerfull, but the power is not at the same extend as the magma fruit
Smoke - Limited compared to other Logias

WhatWhatinthebutt
June 01, 2010, 06:25 PM
It's strange how everyone keep Magellan off their lists

undertoe
June 01, 2010, 06:54 PM
It's strange how everyone keep Magellan off their lists

Noooo kidding.

RichardMNixon
June 01, 2010, 07:04 PM
It may be true if you put them 1v1 fight. But, that's not the only way to rate how powerful someone is. Enel can sink a huge chuck of island with his lightning, doubt Marco can pull it off with one move. Enel problem are probably haki users, logia intangibility such as light and counter DF such as Luffy. However, other than this lightning kills. And Marco is mythical zoan Phoenix. He won't be able to recover if he got one hit with 20 million volt. Of course I'm talking with with real world sense not One Piece. I believe it was pointed out somewhere that people have survived Enel million volts. Maybe the unit has different value than real life.

In real life, volts barely matter. It's the current that determines how deadly something is, the unit is amperes. We could all survive a 1 million volt shock if the current is low whereas one ampere of one volt would be the end for you.

People in One Piece very obviously do not have real world damage thresholds. Marco is just as able to survive a lightning bolt as Blackbeard is able to survive an earthquake on his face.

One on one, Enel will only be able to run away.

That Enel can do more damage to fodder is a more reasonable argument; we haven't really seen any crowd control from Marco, though presumably he could cut swaths through a battlefield just by flying through it with flaming wings.

WhatWhatinthebutt
June 01, 2010, 07:14 PM
I almost agree with you.
But, you're putting Smoker a lot too high!

Put him 6th, and you have it right! :tem

As for between Enel and Kizaru...
Light is faster than Thunder...

I'd put Kizaru first.

Enel is Lightning not Thunder...

Dasbones
June 01, 2010, 07:25 PM
I almost agree with you.
But, you're putting Smoker a lot too high!

Put him 6th, and you have it right! :tem

As for between Enel and Kizaru...
Light is faster than Thunder...

I'd put Kizaru first.

Smoker was was even with Ace when their powers conflicted.

Edit: Nevermind



I don't think you can rate logias in that way. It's more like fruits have elements, and the elements have their own strengths and weaknesses. For instance, I can't see how smoke would affect sand or Ice. Heck, for that matter how does light affect fire?

It's not a 1-100 ranking, it's more like a pokemon type chart with immunity, normal and super effective comparisons.

I agree, but Akainu stated that Logia powers are based on levels of superiority 'Here' (http://img-c.onemanga.com/mangas/00000002/000281412/14-15.jpg), so I was trying to rationalize it.





Honestly..
Ace's logia > Aokiji's ? Seriously ? Kuzan can freeze miles of water with a finger but ok , your position is acceptable.
But you have to stop with Smoker. He is the worst logia ever. He have absolutely no attacks. And since Hancock broke his precious jitte , I can hardly think of a way for him to actually harm anybody. Maybe suffocating them ?

1. Ace can melt ice, I was simply saying which power would overpower the other, Ace can melt the Ice faster than Kuzan can create it. If you are trying to insiunate that I was saying that Ace was stronger overall than Kuzan (and put smoker on that same level): either I did not explain myself clearly, or you didn't read what I was saying.

2.Smoker's power is formless, its basically dirty air, it cannot be destroyed, it would simply bounce off of most everything else, and he uses it to outmaneuver his opponent, since he covers them in the smoke, and can attack them from any angle. Hancock is a Haki user, so even if he had his Jutte she would still be able to beat him.

Girlsryummy
June 01, 2010, 08:38 PM
Lightning travels at the speed of light.



No it doesn't. Lightning bolts move at about 224,000 miles per hour, while light moves at 186,000 miles per second.

And I could see Enel destroying almost everyone that Luffy fought, like CP9 and Kuma (and all his copies). All he would have to do is be like all the other logias and become intangible and none of Luffy's past enemies could touch him. The only people who Enel wouldn't be able to beat would be the people that have haki, and other logias.

Enel is strong but he wouldn't be an admiral, but I think he's to good to be a shichibukai... He'd just be a bad ass...

Zatono
June 01, 2010, 08:50 PM
Everyone keeps saying that Enel's physical abilities suck and he'd just get owned by a Haki user, but he really wouldn't. Don't tell me that Haki would just nullify his lightning. He could definitely still use long range attacks on his opponents, and he's a decent close range fighter anyway.

Coupled with his Mantra, he's a pretty amazing enemy. He'll definitely come back to help Luffy sooner or later, and he'd just own everything in his way who isn't admiral level too.

Fox666
June 01, 2010, 09:04 PM
Well, it's not like he can't fight Haki users, but he seems very unprepared to get injured during a combat...

Enel also seems to get in mental disadvantage once someone can stand after receiving one of his attacks. Don't you think that Whitebeard, Marco or Jozu couldn't take several of his attacks before falling?

Dasbones
June 01, 2010, 10:35 PM
No it doesn't. Lightning bolts move at about 224,000 miles per hour, while light moves at 186,000 miles per second.

Aha, thanks for clearing that up, I was a little to lazy to look that up myself.

But I don't think Kizaru moves at that speed anyway, if he kicked someone at the speed of light, allot more shit would happen at the receiving end.

St Michael
June 02, 2010, 04:05 AM
@ Das Bones :
I clearly understand what you were saying.

But , IMHO , Mera Mera < Hie Hie. But as I just said , it's just personnal opinion , I got carried away in my last post.

However , about Smoker , I'm sorry but I really can't agree :p , his fruit seems so harmless to me. Actually the only damage potentiel he had was his seastone weapon.
Now that Hancock broke it , I don't see Smoker able to beat anyone worth to be mentionned. That's why I can't see him as a future admiral btw.

@ Whatwhatinthebutt : what's the real difference between thunder and lightning?

edit :
He'll definitely come back to help Luffy sooner or later, and he'd just own everything in his way who isn't admiral level too

You really think Ener is coming back from his dream land to help the only one dude who beat the hell out of him? Really ?

WhatWhatinthebutt
June 02, 2010, 05:19 AM
@ Whatwhatinthebutt : what's the real difference between thunder and lightning?


Sound and lightning speeds are two VERY different things (about 125,000 mph difference on average) which makes me wonder why Enel was so slow that Luffy's punches could catch him, regardless of trajectory, if Oda is even following the dynamics of nature (human that is).... :notrust

Luffy Second Gear might breach the sound barrier, but NO WAAAAYYYY could he be fast enough to hit real lightning!!!! Oda miiiiiiight have exaggerated a bit....;)

Also lightning has the capability of reachhing light speeds it is not as stagnant in speed as light and @Das your probably right.... no one (Don't care if your WB or BB) would be living after a direct.

Ashura_Ichibugin
June 02, 2010, 07:08 AM
Luffy Second Gear might breach the sound barrier, but NO WAAAAYYYY could he be fast enough to hit real lightning!!!! Oda miiiiiiight have exaggerated a bit....;)

Enel has lightning speed, not lightning reflexes. First he should see the punch, than react to it, than he is at the speed of lightning. If the punch hits him before he starts moving, his speed has no use.

undertoe
June 02, 2010, 08:15 AM
I have a feeling we have yet to see the full extent of Smoker's abilities... Note that all his attacks are based on "white." Since when is smoke only white? I'm sure he has some attacks based on very acrid black smoke up his sleeve.

Fox666
June 02, 2010, 08:53 AM
But I don't think Kizaru moves at that speed anyway, if he kicked someone at the speed of light, allot more shit would happen at the receiving end.Nothing would happen, if you move at the speed of light, you become light. :p

beastboy
June 02, 2010, 01:43 PM
I think Enel must have done something about being weak against people who can touch him, and maybe he got rid of a bit of his god complex (not all, he would lose the fun), so I guess that when we see him in the blue sea, if we see him, he is going to be a little more powerfull.
And I agree with the person who said, he has lightning speed, not lightning reflexes..
A normal human reaction time is 1 sec. if you're paying attention and trained, you're reaction time would be like 0,1 sec.!
But Enel has the Bonus of Mantra, so he would see things first, he would be able to react in less than 0,0002 sec if he was habituated to dodge, but is logia made him almost unable to dodge, his natural reflexes went to waste cause, in sky island, he never felt the need to dodge.
So while he could predict attacks, he didn't move right after the attack.. I mean, when Luffy stretches the arm back, he is wide open, he could just punch him, but he couldn't react in time, so he could only dodge cause he was thunder...
Yet he was unable to dodge the octopus attack, because without the Mantra Bonus, he could not react in time, and he didn't try to move before the punch hit his face....

So a trained Enel, that trained is reflexes, would pwn NORMAL Luffy in no time.
And with that, pwn every thingle being wich has not haki..

Yet, has he went down with a reject, he wouldn't handle a Rokuougan, and would lose to every experienced Haki user, that could find a way to bind him!

Dasbones
June 02, 2010, 08:15 PM
However , about Smoker , I'm sorry but I really can't agree :p , his fruit seems so harmless to me. Actually the only damage potentiel he had was his seastone weapon.
Now that Hancock broke it , I don't see Smoker able to beat anyone worth to be mentioned. That's why I can't see him as a future admiral btw.


It's hardly worthless, its a great defense. I never said it was any more powerful offensively, but I really can't see most of the other logias actually being able to destroy the smoke; Kuzan cannot freeze smoke, Fire cannot destroy it, since fire requires oxygen in order to burn, Magma has shown it's worth as destroying everything short of Marco's mythic fire. I agree with you in the sense that the smoke itself is not that powerful at all, its more how you use it that matters; but I never actually stated that Smoker could beat anyone below him on the list, but his smoke power is something that's difficult to destroy, since it's formless.

Fox666
June 02, 2010, 09:33 PM
Hmm, wouldn't Akainu do the same to Smoker he did to Ace? Also, Aokiji could at least create a prison that Smoker couldn't escape...

Dasbones
June 02, 2010, 10:32 PM
Well that's just Kuzan using his power in a more creative way, it doesn't mean it outright beats Smoker's power though.

As for Akainu, his logia is pure destructive force, I'm not holding out on the possibility that Smoker could survive an attack from him, its just very unlikely

St Michael
June 03, 2010, 07:26 AM
Hmm, wouldn't Akainu do the same to Smoker he did to Ace? Also, Aokiji could at least create a prison that Smoker couldn't escape...

There is a difference between what Aka Inu could do to Smoker , and what lava fruit can do to Smoker's.

I'm part of the people who think that Aka Inu used haki to burn Ace's fist , instead of any lava superiority over fire.

Besides the punch through Ace is simple to explain : Ace wanted to protect Luffy from Sakazuki .. and he made himself tangible. Otherwise , the fist would have make his way to Luffy anyway.

Sum up : in don't believe in "Lava beat Fire" , "Hakized lava beat fire" seems more accurate to me.

Oups I got (again) carried away. There is no way the lava fruit alone could harm the smoke user. At least IMO , it would make no sense.

Fox666
June 03, 2010, 08:25 AM
But lava superiority was the explanation given by the series!

Also, before that, Akainu and Ace matched long ranged attacks, and Ace burnt his hand... so that makes not possible for the theory of ace being in the tangible state.

Poneglyph420
June 04, 2010, 01:08 AM
Did you read the title before you posted the last few posts?? Sure it's a grammatical nightmare but anyways..

Enel is and was one of the most bad ass characters in the first half of the Grand Line. If Enel was to return to the GL Oda has even stated he could make a name for himself and could hold his own, but not rule. (He could have up to 500,000,000 Beli Bounty!!) (SBS 43) SO based on that I'd say that he'd be bad ass, but likely to fall a truly "elite" opponent. I also think his god complex was his only big weakness.... Otherwise he'd wreak hell.. IMO.

Or maybe "Enel isn't considering anyone powerful now".. Maybe that's the proper response...

Bugzee
June 04, 2010, 01:57 AM
Yep. I definitely agree with the person above me. Enel was and still is a bad ass character. I certainly hope we see him again in the future. I have a feeling he will eventually return one day…if Haredas & co on Weatheria Island are heading to SA (Yes, I know it was stated in the anime) what’s stopping Enel coming back from space (or wherever he is atm)? :D

I can’t wait to see those earlobes again. XD

cua_raitei
June 05, 2010, 04:13 PM
yeah, i hope that he'd come back someday
and join the SH's ???

BetaRuler
June 05, 2010, 04:36 PM
I think the speed issue is comparable to Kizarus problem too.

Some one mentioned before "what do you flex to make a hole in your head, capable of letting something pass through you"...

Similar question, how do you prepare to move at the speed of lightning, or light.

just imagine how much control Kizaru must have had to practice before he could even kick and keep his balance! I bet his first kick at the speed of light would have sent him flying with his foot!

How fast can the average brain process information? Those simple reasons are why I don't think you'll get people in one piece truly moving at the speed of light or lightning, their reflexes are still too human. Luffy's blood gear 2nd may make him the most capably fastest person around! Unless Eneru or Kizaru can think and move their bodies as fast as their elements.

undertoe
June 05, 2010, 05:39 PM
There is a difference between what Aka Inu could do to Smoker , and what lava fruit can do to Smoker's.

I'm part of the people who think that Aka Inu used haki to burn Ace's fist , instead of any lava superiority over fire.

Besides the punch through Ace is simple to explain : Ace wanted to protect Luffy from Sakazuki .. and he made himself tangible. Otherwise , the fist would have make his way to Luffy anyway.

Sum up : in don't believe in "Lava beat Fire" , "Hakized lava beat fire" seems more accurate to me.

Oups I got (again) carried away. There is no way the lava fruit alone could harm the smoke user. At least IMO , it would make no sense.

You're part of the group of people who don't fully understand physics? Akainu STATED that it was his power's superiority that allowed him to burn Ace. That's like saying "I'm part of the group of people that believe Luffy is a rubber Logia," or "I'm part of the group of people that believe that Blackbeard is actually Luffy's father." You're believing in something that was blatantly stated as wrong.

Dasbones
June 06, 2010, 01:21 AM
I think the speed issue is comparable to Kizarus problem too.

Some one mentioned before "what do you flex to make a hole in your head, capable of letting something pass through you"...

Similar question, how do you prepare to move at the speed of lightning, or light.

just imagine how much control Kizaru must have had to practice before he could even kick and keep his balance! I bet his first kick at the speed of light would have sent him flying with his foot!

How fast can the average brain process information? Those simple reasons are why I don't think you'll get people in one piece truly moving at the speed of light or lightning, their reflexes are still too human. Luffy's blood gear 2nd may make him the most capably fastest person around! Unless Eneru or Kizaru can think and move their bodies as fast as their elements.

I think the more we look into this, the sooner we should realize we're finding holes in physics and logic in a fantasy setting...

hibar90
June 06, 2010, 02:21 AM
In real life, volts barely matter. It's the current that determines how deadly something is, the unit is amperes. We could all survive a 1 million volt shock if the current is low whereas one ampere of one volt would be the end for you.

You're right. But, I assumed all his move would have a constant amp, since increasing the volt also increases the damage. And he could melt gold with it, so doesn't it say the current is high as well?

I think Enel should own on paper. But, in practical he's not performing as well as he should. Maybe the mental instability Bittman mentioned.



If I were to make a list I would rank their powers as so (although I wont rank Blackbeard, since I believe he is falsely ranked as Logia, and his power trumps all devil fruits.)

1.Enel/Kizaru
2.Akainu
3.Ace/Smoker
4.Aokiji
5.Crocodile

I'd put Enel "ability" that high as well. But, I think he should be down there with ace/smoker. I would put Aokiji with Akainu on number 2. They're both admirals, so they should have equal power. Both have the power to destroy each other if their balance is broken. Though, I think someone who can freeze massive volume of sea water in an instant can freeze lava/magma.

Dasbones
June 06, 2010, 01:25 PM
I would put Aokiji with Akainu on number 2. They're both admirals, so they should have equal power. Both have the power to destroy each other if their balance is broken. Though, I think someone who can freeze massive volume of sea water in an instant can freeze lava/magma.

Akainu and Aokiji will not fight each other in all likely-hood, so it's tough to say if they really are at equal power. Aokiji could not put out Ace's flames head-on, and since Akainu was able to overpower his flames, plus the multiple occasions when Akainu completely obliterated Aokiji's ice; I think its safe to say their powers would not be balanced out, no matter what.

undertoe
June 06, 2010, 02:06 PM
It's a different match-up though, Das. Putting out flames and freezing magma are two VERY different processes. While extinguishing flames requires denying them oxygen, freezing magma into rock only requires cooling the magma enough. It's a lot harder for ice to smother flames than it is for ice to lower the temperature of magma, so it would likely be a close match-up.

THM Nindo
June 06, 2010, 02:07 PM
Akainu and Aokiji will not fight each other in all likely-hood, so it's tough to say if they really are at equal power. Aokiji could not put out Ace's flames head-on, and since Akainu was able to overpower his flames, plus the multiple occasions when Akainu completely obliterated Aokiji's ice; I think its safe to say their powers would not be balanced out, no matter what.

Yea...
It's like shown 100% in the manga that Aikanu power > Aikoji power

undertoe
June 06, 2010, 02:20 PM
Yea...
It's like shown 100% in the manga that Aikanu power > Aikoji power

Where? You never know how two fruits will match up. It was also shown 100% in the manga that Magellan's fruit > Mr. 3's until they actually matched up.

THM Nindo
June 06, 2010, 02:37 PM
Where? You never know how two fruits will match up. It was also shown 100% in the manga that Magellan's fruit > Mr. 3's until they actually matched up.

We saw their fruit maching up already.
Aokiji froze everything, and Aikanu just unfroze everything in a pinch.

Aokiji Ice fruit will have no effect on Aikanu.

Schabrak
June 06, 2010, 02:58 PM
We saw their fruit maching up already.
Aokiji froze everything, and Aikanu just unfroze everything in a pinch.

Aokiji Ice fruit will have no effect on Aikanu.
Would you stop posting your thoughts as absolute facts, please?

Four your info: Aokiji froze the sea just as fast, likely even faster, than Akainu could heat it up.
If Aokiji were to cast his ice-floor on an prior magma attack, it would probably have just the same effect of nullifiing Akainus attack. How can you compare those two attacks, if they weren't used at the same time against each other? -> Fail in argumentation. :/

THM Nindo
June 06, 2010, 03:00 PM
Would you stop posting your thoughts as absolute facts, please?

Four your info: Aokiji froze the sea just as fast, likely even faster, than Akainu could heat it up.
If Aokiji were to cast his ice-floor on an prior magma attack, it would probably have just the same effect of nullifiing Akainus attack. How can you compare those two attacks, if they weren't used at the same time against each other?

Even if Aokiji managed to freeze Aikanu, he would just do the same thing that Whitebeard did.
Remember? Whitebeard was frozen but because of his quake, he was able to crack the ice.

If Aikanu would be frozen, he would just melt the ice from the inside.

undertoe
June 06, 2010, 03:08 PM
Even if Aokiji managed to freeze Aikanu, he would just do the same thing that Whitebeard did.
Remember? Whitebeard was frozen but because of his quake, he was able to crack the ice.

If Aikanu would be frozen, he would just melt the ice from the inside.

The process would be different; melting is a gradual process, while shattering is sudden. If Akainu was frozen in the first place, that means that Aokiji is capable of freezing Akainu more quickly than Akainu is capable of melting the ice. Thus, if Akainu was frozen, Aokiji would just have to continue supplying ice and Akainu would be unable to melt it rapidly enough.

Dasbones
June 06, 2010, 05:19 PM
It's a different match-up though, Das. Putting out flames and freezing magma are two VERY different processes. While extinguishing flames requires denying them oxygen, freezing magma into rock only requires cooling the magma enough. It's a lot harder for ice to smother flames than it is for ice to lower the temperature of magma, so it would likely be a close match-up.

I see what you're saying there, but I'm simply basing this off of what was happening in the Manga. Akainu's magma was stronger than Ace's flames, Aokiji's Ice was fought evenly with said fire. When Akainu burned Ace, he claimed it was because of levels of superiority. Judging by that standard, since the Magma beat Ace's flames, and Ace's flames matched evenly with Aokiji's Ice, through deductive reasoning it can be claimed that Akainu's Magma would beat Aokiji's Ice.


Now even though were are comparing powers to Enel, I think it's difficult to reason how Enel's Lighting would have any specific advantages over the other logias. For example; In the case of smoker, it can easily be assumed that Lighting really can do nothing to smoke, it is not conductive in any way, but since Logias are ranked in orders in superiority (and also assuming that Enel is rather high on that list) Enel should be able to bypass Smoker's intangibility with a powerful lightning strike, regardless of any pre-conceived theories based on real-world science and logic.

The reason I would put Kizaru on the top of the list, is because so far; Kizaru's lasers have not been stopped by anything short of powerful Haki (if this is incorrect, please show a page where evidence is proven.), his lasers are even able to be fired deep underwater, which would suggest his powers have a higher resistance to water than most other logias. While it's a rather large leap to assume that Kizaru's lasers could hurt Akainu in his full intangible form, since Magma is most likely (in my opinion anyway) one of the most destructive powers in the series.

undertoe
June 06, 2010, 05:25 PM
Not necessarily... I mean, Luffy's power owns Enel, but I'm sure that Enel could take down plenty of powers that would have an advantage on Luffy (Das Bones, for example ;)).

hibar90
June 06, 2010, 06:02 PM
Akainu never displayed melting ice, he was shattering them with meteor fists. Just as much if Aokiji threw an Iceberg at the ice surface and shatter them. It never says that Akainu is too hot for Aokiji. Since, they are both admirals level it should be safe to assume that their power is equal, thus none can melt or freeze the other. And as stated putting out flames at freezing magma is very different, at this stage their temperature isn't really relevant. Combustion is still possible as long as the source is not soaked and oxygen exist. I just think Aokiji is seriously being underrated.

Dasbones
June 06, 2010, 06:35 PM
Akainu never displayed melting ice, he was shattering them with meteor fists. Just as much if Aokiji threw an Iceberg at the ice surface and shatter them. It never says that Akainu is too hot for Aokiji. Since, they are both admirals level it should be safe to assume that their power is equal, thus none can melt or freeze the other. And as stated putting out flames at freezing magma is very different, at this stage their temperature isn't really relevant. Combustion is still possible as long as the source is not soaked and oxygen exist. I just think Aokiji is seriously being underrated.

I remember specifically that Akainu melted Aokiji's ice without effort In fact it evaporated completely (http://img-c.onemanga.com/mangas/00000002/000216532/08-09.jpg). Their powers are equal in their destructive force, but their powers are not equal in terms of superiority.




Not necessarily... I mean, Luffy's power owns Enel, but I'm sure that Enel could take down plenty of powers that would have an advantage on Luffy
Ah, that's what makes the relations between different fruits tricky, It's safe to assume that most (if not all) Paramecia are of lower rank than Logias, but Mythical Zoans (like Marco) might be higher up than both of them. We have little data that could prove anything further in the argument though, so it's difficult to say.

Aokiji is hardly underrated, you might be getting that impression since he's being compared to his allies, ones that he will never fight (although it is Aokiji, he is the most likely out of the three to defect from the marines)

hibar90
June 07, 2010, 07:26 AM
I remember specifically that Akainu melted Aokiji's ice without effort In fact it evaporated completely (http://img-c.onemanga.com/mangas/00000002/000216532/08-09.jpg). Their powers are equal in their destructive force, but their powers are not equal in terms of superiority.

Good catch I stand corrected.

THM Nindo
June 07, 2010, 08:28 AM
Ah, that's what makes the relations between different fruits tricky, It's safe to assume that most (if not all) Paramecia are of lower rank than Logias, but Mythical Zoans (like Marco) might be higher up than both of them. We have little data that could prove anything further in the argument though, so it's difficult to say.

Well, in the last SBS, Oda just confirmed that it's not really true.

Marco (Zoan) = Ace (Logia)
Whitebeard (Paramecia) > Pretty much everything (Logia)

Dasbones
June 07, 2010, 08:56 AM
Ah, I never read the SBS stuff... I should get on that.

undertoe
June 07, 2010, 09:54 AM
I remember specifically that Akainu melted Aokiji's ice without effort In fact it evaporated completely (http://img-c.onemanga.com/mangas/00000002/000216532/08-09.jpg). Their powers are equal in their destructive force, but their powers are not equal in terms of superiority.

Yes, magma CAN sublimate standing ice. HOWEVER, we cannot draw any conclusion until we see how they match up when they are both constantly feeding into the attack. I guarantee you that Akainu could lay a river of magma and Aokiji could easily freeze the entire thing if Akainu stopped feeding it with magma. I also guarantee you that Ace could also have easily evaporated the same body of ice even though his powers were at a stand-still with Aokiji's.

There is no evidence in the manga so far as to how this match-up would go, so stop trying to make it appear.

Fox666
June 07, 2010, 12:16 PM
Well, Ace and Aokiji matched against each other perfectly. So I would say that Akainu would overpower Aokiji...

Dasbones
June 07, 2010, 04:19 PM
There is no evidence in the manga so far as to how this match-up would go, so stop trying to make it appear.

Holy crap chill, I never say any of this is absolute fact, I'm just drawing conclusions based on evidence in the manga. What you said is true, but since we have no actual clash between Akainu's powers and Aokiji's, and all we have seen is Akainu's powers trounce Ace (who's powers were evenly matched head to head with Aokiji's ice). Its safe to assume that based on that information (along with Akainu's claim that Logias are ranked by superiority) that Aokiji would be hurt if Akainu would attack him (which, is unlikely).

Now to be clear, I am not saying my standard is absolute fact, but based on what I've read/seen, this is the most likely outcome. Trust me, I would LOVE to be proven wrong, because I don't like the idea of Aokiji being beat out by Akainu.

BetaRuler
June 09, 2010, 01:19 PM
Anyone else think this discussions justabout over? Seems like nothing but 'what-ifs' and potential arguments arising now.

Schabrak
June 09, 2010, 02:45 PM
Its safe to assume that based on that information (along with Akainu's claim that Logias are ranked by superiority) that Aokiji would be hurt if Akainu would attack him (which, is unlikely).

You should not forget that even within Logia things can change completely if one's ability is dis-/advantageous against the oponents one's. Who would have thought that a rubber fruit would become such fearsome one.

Everyone has stated their theory, so we really should wait till ... who? Enel reapears and rules over them all. hehe

hibar90
June 10, 2010, 02:52 AM
I think the panel that Dashbones showed akainu meteor evaporated a flying iceberg. So both were unfed from the users. Though I agree their fight would be my most anticipated fight. While Kizaru and enel is just haxx. Probably only a haki users can defeat both (apart from luffy).

Dasbones
June 10, 2010, 12:07 PM
The problem with Enel fighting someone that's close to his power is that he'll lose his cool way too quickly, and if that happens he basically loses. Kizaru would have a much larger advantage over Enel, mainly because I don't think Kizaru actually feels emotion, he's just goofy.

ScratchmenApoo
June 10, 2010, 12:59 PM
What about the attack range ?

Kizaru was able to shoot light beams very far away (considering the ocean near Marineford is very deep because Whitebeard's ships were able to move in unnoticed) and Akainu was able to create a meteor shower, not as far in reach, though.

We've seen that Enel's reach is very great (that God's Retribution thing where he simply wipes away people) so he can pretty much create a lightning bolt to someone from one end of Marineford to the other.
Also, we know that Kizaru's light attacks don't move at the speed of light, because that would not only be unseen, but just ridicilous, so I'll assume Enel's attacks work at half of that speed.
Still, that would be enough to take a logia enemy offguard and shock him.
(Because Smoker got phsycally hit when he didn't expect Luffy to burst into him)

The only problem is, that I don't know if the ability to become intangible, whether the user wants it or not, depends on the user's mastery of the Devil Fruit powers.
Maybe Smoker hasn't mastered his logia completely whereas Aokiji and Akainu have, meaning that it doesn't even matter if Enel can cast a thunderbolt from a mile away.

Maybe intangibility is affected by the user's muscles and nerves. If that is so, Enel's shocks could disrupt the nerves and make muscles unusable, leaving the body vulnerable.

Still, regular Zoans and Paramecias are definitely game over when Enel strikes them, just for that previous reason, if not the 'heart stopping' thing.

hibar90
June 10, 2010, 02:30 PM
The problem with Enel fighting someone that's close to his power is that he'll lose his cool way too quickly, and if that happens he basically loses. Kizaru would have a much larger advantage over Enel, mainly because I don't think Kizaru actually feels emotion, he's just goofy.

The thing is, their DF power on paper should allow them to fence off any kind of attack. So, I feel only haki users are threats to them. Enel is unstable, but no doubt he's comparable to top shicibukai, WB top commanders and admirals.

Dasbones
June 10, 2010, 02:41 PM
It also depends if Mantra is just a funny way of saying Haki

Bloodwinter
June 17, 2010, 09:25 PM
Enel was a special circumstance. Where he lived and what Devil Fruit he ate were two important parts to just how powerful he was and appeared to be. His powers were best suited in Sky Island, one commonly noted fact was the fact that in Sky Island, rubber didn't exist and therefor things such as conductors and insulators weren't explored. Being that he lived in a place comprised mostly of cloud and water-cloud, his electric abilities were unmatched by just about anyone there. His power wouldn't have been nearly as potent on the Blue Sea, though still very formidable nonetheless. Because of the fact that he is electricity, he has the advantage of raw energy. In feats of god-like destructive force it doesn't really seem like anything can come even close besides fire and maybe magma.

Though I believe that type of power puts him leaps and bounds above most people, but I'm also a firm believer of the power is only as good as it's user. Certainly he had quite a bag of tricks as far as the uses of his power, and he was well rounded in the knowledge of electricity, but he didn't have the demeanor to really carry that devil fruit. Had you given that fruit to someone like Crocodile or Lucci especially, he would have put that fruit to far more use than Enel did himself and went about it much more intelligently.

While you can say that he would be on definitely Shichibukai level doesn't really account for too much being that one of the first major villains Luffy ever defeated shortly after his entry to the grand line was a Shichibukai. Then again, a Shichibukai could also be someone like Kuma or Mihawk. As far as being an Admiral is concerned however, he is far from the type of person who would ever stand a remote chance against an Admiral, to consider them in the same league is an insult to that title.

As for Mantra, there are two distinct differences between them that makes Mantra far inferior to Haki. Mantra is the ability to hear the voice of the person you're focused on. With that, you can hear in their head what they plan to do next, what they are plotting. So like Luffy, if they had stopped thinking of what they were doing or attacked at random, the user would be clueless as to what their moves were going to be. Haki however, shows you a premonition of what is about to happen next and you can either continue as you would or counter what you saw ahead of time. Whether they were thinking about it or not, you were to see where everything was in those premonitions and could rearrange yourself accordingly to dodge. It also gives you the ability to hit Devil Fruit users despite their intangibility.

So really, if he were to make it to the Blue Sea, he would definitely have a good run with what he had. He still doesn't hold a candle to any of the stronger people in the series, rubber or not.

Truefan21
June 18, 2010, 12:58 AM
he is slightly lower than the admirals imo
i don't think haki and mantra are related

Dasbones
June 18, 2010, 02:03 AM
Considering the people shown using it, I'd say it's a poor mans form of Haki, maybe a distant cousin.

Schabrak
June 18, 2010, 04:48 AM
Considering the people shown using it, I'd say it's a poor mans form of Haki, maybe a distant cousin.
Oo what are you talking about, Mantra had great usage, aside from the cheap, just enforcing objects with haki attacks, like knowing where everybody on the isle is. Such infomation is much more helpfull, than some poor haki attacks, that weren't even able to damage Akainu in the slightest. People like Zorro would profit from such, when concentrating on his attack to aim on fast moving enemies.

Bloodwinter
June 18, 2010, 04:25 PM
Oo what are you talking about, Mantra had great usage, aside from the cheap, just enforcing objects with haki attacks, like knowing where everybody on the isle is. Such infomation is much more helpfull, than some poor haki attacks, that weren't even able to damage Akainu in the slightest. People like Zorro would profit from such, when concentrating on his attack to aim on fast moving enemies.

That's only because Akainu hadn't fought that much against people with Haki. At this point in the series Haki is still a very new thing, and it's uses aren't thoroughly explored as with Mantra which was explained in full. Already from what we can see of Haki is that it has a lot in practical application. The one person Akainu did truly fight with Haki, Whitebeard, had beaten him into the ground and had only narrowly escaped dying. Reread the chapters of them fighting it's definitely in there.

firework
August 11, 2010, 10:41 PM
Enel is easily Admiral level with his abilities.
Smoker is too, despite how he may seem.
And Ace as well, he only lost to Akainu because of his weakness, he easily matched Aokiji.

elitefox
August 12, 2010, 12:39 AM
What about the attack range ?

Kizaru was able to shoot light beams very far away (considering the ocean near Marineford is very deep because Whitebeard's ships were able to move in unnoticed) and Akainu was able to create a meteor shower, not as far in reach, though.

We've seen that Enel's reach is very great (that God's Retribution thing where he simply wipes away people) so he can pretty much create a lightning bolt to someone from one end of Marineford to the other.
Also, we know that Kizaru's light attacks don't move at the speed of light, because that would not only be unseen, but just ridicilous, so I'll assume Enel's attacks work at half of that speed.
Still, that would be enough to take a logia enemy offguard and shock him.
(Because Smoker got phsycally hit when he didn't expect Luffy to burst into him)

The only problem is, that I don't know if the ability to become intangible, whether the user wants it or not, depends on the user's mastery of the Devil Fruit powers.
Maybe Smoker hasn't mastered his logia completely whereas Aokiji and Akainu have, meaning that it doesn't even matter if Enel can cast a thunderbolt from a mile away.

Maybe intangibility is affected by the user's muscles and nerves. If that is so, Enel's shocks could disrupt the nerves and make muscles unusable, leaving the body vulnerable.

Still, regular Zoans and Paramecias are definitely game over when Enel strikes them, just for that previous reason, if not the 'heart stopping' thing.

yep, I wonder if haki can protect them from that? at least reduce it.
same as shanks protecting himself from a magma fist.

There is a clear distinction of power gap.

kkck
August 12, 2010, 12:49 AM
Well, enel would be brutally powerful with his ability, he'd be someone anyone should fear. In turn, most of the people with the capacity to hit logia should be able to beat him though. Even though enel's fruit is in no way superior to that of the admirals, I don't see him standing a chance against them. In a fight against the shichibukai, I'd think any of them who has the capacity to hit logia would defeat him even if with some trouble. I could also see several of the VAs winning against him. His situation is roughly similar to that of crocodile. His abilities and mastery of his fruit make him brutally powerful and a force to be reckoned with even by the strong dudes around but if you get past the intangibility you have a good chance of winning.

roxas_strife2
August 12, 2010, 01:32 PM
I would regard Enel as someone who could have been Admiral, Shichibukai, and maybe even Yonkou. He can sense intent within a huge range, whereas Luffy's untrained Haki could only see that premonition because that one was meant to nearly kill him. If one went at someone with the intent of doing light damage they could overcome this. Enel can move fast as lightning, which would make it very difficult for a Haki user, seeing as actual Haki attacks are almost entirely close-range, or are an object imbued with the power of Haki, such as the arrows of the Kuja tribe. Enel has already proven he can handle combat of that variety well enough to almost beat Luffy(at that point in the series). I'm just saying, were it not for Luffy's DF, everybody in that arc would have been screwed entirely. He is a very strong character.

On another note, I think people belittle Crocodile too much. xD

kkck
August 12, 2010, 02:38 PM
I think enel might be a tad on the weak side concerning his physical capacities. Luffy with gear two was able to keep up with the guy, I doubt the strong people around would have trouble keeping up with enel.

Bugzee
August 12, 2010, 04:08 PM
^ That was a long time ago. Just as Luffy, BB and others have improved over time...what's stopping Enel? Nothing. The possible "improvements" in strength may not be on the same level as others but I still reckon he can become stronger in other ways. Thunder lancer/sword lol.

The dude is a BEAST!

I miss his badass attitude and that logia ability...zomg! I really hope he does return to the story one day...

"The day Croco-boy met Enel"...lol now that would be funny.

Schabrak
August 12, 2010, 06:16 PM
Some really look down on him to much. Characters can be as strong as they want, but having a distance as that from his ship, they wont be able to attack him, excluding logia as allways.^^ Haki would probably make it harder for him, but it would do so against every characters, and it doesn't stop him from attacking. Maybe I just want to hear his laugh again.

Cizuz
August 12, 2010, 06:45 PM
I think there is a ranking system of which logia fruits abide by, since Akainu was able to punch a hole through Ace with his magma, which in theory has a higher power ranking than fire.

Smoker's power was also evenly matched by Ace, despite their fruits two very different elements, although fire usually does produce smoke, so that gets a little confusing. I think Enel's logia power would trump most if not all other logias in terms of power, since it is pure energy. Although Kizaru's logia is light, which is also pure energy, it really depends on what you think is more powerful; light or electricity? Kizaru has a power that is far more focused than Enel's, and thus is able to produce a very destructive attack in a smaller area, such has his laser kick that toppled a giant tree. Enel's power is measurable (in the sense that we could accurately describe how much power he is outputting) so it is arguable weather or not Enel's lightning could reach a higher power level than kizaru's lasers

If I were to make a list I would rank their powers as so (although I wont rank Blackbeard, since I believe he is falsely ranked as Logia, and his power trumps all devil fruits.)

1.Enel/Kizaru
2.Akainu
3.Ace/Smoker
4.Aokiji
5.Crocodile

This list of course does not indicate actual combat ability, its more of which power would supersede the other in a one-on-one scenario

It's not about classes of logia, infact magma is the worst thing for ace. The reason oda better use for it to atleast make any sort of sense is that fire and magma can both produce an intense amount of heat, and both should be the same, however fire needs oxygen to burn, and magma is just hot molten rock that doesn't need oxygen to burn but could exhaust oxygen in the area, so when Ace got hit, his body COULDN'T become fire, due to no oxygen.

I love One Piece due to Oda thinks of good ways to counteract devil fruits then the ways people would think are obvious. Fire vs Water etc, but instead he does a fire vs magma, who would think ANYTHING would come of that? Like ace vs smoker was useless.

THM Nindo
August 13, 2010, 11:49 AM
What I don't get is... if every Vice-Amiral knows Haki, why won't they use it?!

I mean, we had a huge fight between Ace and Smoker, and yet all they did was use Fire and Smoke...

We know for a fact that Ace was able to use Haki, and Smoker, as a Vice-Admiral, was supposed to be able to use it, so why not!??

I think Enel's mantra is pretty close to the regular Haki.

Spam286
August 13, 2010, 12:01 PM
What I don't get is... if every Vice-Amiral knows Haki, why won't they use it?!

I mean, we had a huge fight between Ace and Smoker, and yet all they did was use Fire and Smoke...

We know for a fact that Ace was able to use Haki, and Smoker, as a Vice-Admiral, was supposed to be able to use it, so why not!??

I think Enel's mantra is pretty close to the regular Haki.

Smoker isn't a Vice Admiral and the only evidence we have that Ace has it is a single kingy blast when he was a kid. No one who saw it knew what it was so there's nothing to suggest he was trained in it's use.

roxas_strife2
August 13, 2010, 01:30 PM
I don't think Logia-types can really use Haki because it disrupts their intangibility. Aokoji might, but that's because he can go back and forth between being his element solid and being it in dust form. Same for Crocodile. I only think this because there is zero examples of them using it, and it is clearly very common with people in their league. :/

Wisshard
August 13, 2010, 01:58 PM
I mean, we had a huge fight between Ace and Smoker, and yet all they did was use Fire and Smoke...

That fight is nowhere to be found in the manga, where they only clash (similar to Ace and Aokiji in the war) in one panel. (And as Spam286 pointed out, Smoke was a Captain as that time (Commodore now) so it's argueable if Smoker himself is able to utilize Haki)


I don't think Logia-types can really use Haki because it disrupts their intangibility. Aokoji might, but that's because he can go back and forth between being his element solid and being it in dust form. Same for Crocodile. I only think this because there is zero examples of them using it, and it is clearly very common with people in their league. :/

There are several occasions where the Admirals very likely used Haki, but that aside, I don't see how being a Logia-user has anything to do with utilizing Haki...

To my knowledge, Haki is the expression of an ambition, i.e. to hit someone despite their Devil Fruit defenses (Logia intangibility, Rubber body, Buggy's Bara Bara fruit etc). How would utilize Haki "disrupt" a Logia's defense anymore than it would Luffy's rubber defense?

That being said, I think Enel would stand a fairly good chance against a few of the higher tiers such as some of the Shichibukai and VA's, but would fall before the toughest guys (Yonkou's and their strongest crew members, the Admiral's etc), duo to his potent Devil Fruit and mantra (which is confirmed as a use of Haki (the guy did have the ambition to be a God after all...)).

Lozmaster
August 13, 2010, 02:25 PM
Personally, I don't think any of the supernovas bar luffy can even hope to touch enel, and luffy only because of his major major DF advantage. Admirals or at least shichibukai? He could certainly be one if he wanted.
He was the single most powerful person on skypia bar none, and that was with no-one to compare his strength to. One could argue if he wanted to, he could have made himself much stronger, but had no reason to since he overwhelmed everyone he had met up until luffy.

As for Speed between him and kizaru, it doesn't really matter. They both move at least hundreds of meters/second, if one moves and the other starts moving, both would have to stop and think about where the other person has gone because they're faster than the eye could see, and infact, the advantage would go to enel because of his mantra being able to predict faster peoples movement, whereas no-one has demonstrated that power since.

llamapie
August 13, 2010, 04:04 PM
Capone was sucked by the Enel's moon

haha would be nice if Enel still had a place in the story. :X Someone like him could become infamous extremely fast. And the way luffy is now Enel would get owned in 1 punch so ya it would serve as way for Luffy to gain more fame.

johnnyb7
August 13, 2010, 04:12 PM
I hope Enel isn't really back, his arc was incredibly epic and any new arc where he comes back I feel would tarnish some of his reputation. I'd rather he just stayed on the moon.

Besides he couldn't bring the moon to Earth, I think the thing that sucked up Capones ship was just an island in the new world.

llamapie
August 13, 2010, 04:46 PM
I hope Enel isn't really back, his arc was incredibly epic and any new arc where he comes back I feel would tarnish some of his reputation. I'd rather he just stayed on the moon.

Besides he couldn't bring the moon to Earth, I think the thing that sucked up Capones ship was just an island in the new world.

Could be a moon ship ;x but ya most likely some island. Anyways we see the cover stories and usually they play some part of the story in the future. So~~ Enel will probably return at some point to play a minor role I would imagine.

:P Elemental Logia are in fact too epic to be given such little play time.

Schabrak
August 13, 2010, 05:10 PM
The advantage would go to Enel because of his mantra being able to predict faster peoples movement, whereas no-one has demonstrated that power since.
Don't want to start some off-topic, but the Boa sisters have shown the ability to predict Luffys movements, before he got to fast with Gear 2nd.

His advantage is that he can become omni-present filling the whole sky and is able to attack strong and rapidly over a long period of time.
Well every admiral can use attacks with a big AoE field, but Enel can support himself using the sky, like Crocodile used sand to his advantage in Alabasta. Okay Kizaru can, but only at daytime, Akainu can probably break up the earth to create a vulcano and Aokiji use the particles from the ocean and air. :O

johnnyb7
August 13, 2010, 05:10 PM
:P Elemental Logia are in fact too epic to be given such little play time.

Nah man, the Skypiea saga went from chapter 218 to 302. That's a big amount of play time, despite Enel not being shown for a while. And even if you wanted more play time for him, the play time he had was epic enough to account for any extra possible time he could have had IMO. He completely ruled a society of people convincing them he was God, and there wasn't a damn thing anyone could do about it. In fact, the only one of them who could, Wiper, managed to stop him but then he restarted his own heart to keep fighting them. That is epic and horrifying as f***. Luffy was the only one who could do anything.

If he was brought down to Earth, other people could fight him, who could use haki. He'd be epic for a little while but would eventually be brought down either by the marines or by Luffy. Oda wouldn't simply repeat a previous arc, that'd be too lame for his style, he's gonna be coming up with new ideas. I say that it's just a giant floating island, not that it makes sense but that's what I say.

llamapie
August 13, 2010, 05:35 PM
Nah man, the Skypiea saga went from chapter 218 to 302. That's a big amount of play time, despite Enel not being shown for a while. And even if you wanted more play time for him, the play time he had was epic enough to account for any extra possible time he could have had IMO. He completely ruled a society of people convincing them he was God, and there wasn't a damn thing anyone could do about it. In fact, the only one of them who could, Wiper, managed to stop him but then he restarted his own heart to keep fighting them. That is epic and horrifying as f***. Luffy was the only one who could do anything.

If he was brought down to Earth, other people could fight him, who could use haki. He'd be epic for a little while but would eventually be brought down either by the marines or by Luffy. Oda wouldn't simply repeat a previous arc, that'd be too lame for his style, he's gonna be coming up with new ideas. I say that it's just a giant floating island, not that it makes sense but that's what I say.

I don't think he would make a whole arc out of it more than just a page showing Luffy 1 shotting his ass. :P Its my theory to show how much he has improved since skypeia anyways.

Realtwisted
August 13, 2010, 05:52 PM
The only reason why Nel din't beat Luffy is because he is made out of rubber. Nel DF is lighning<rubber.

llamapie
August 13, 2010, 07:10 PM
The only reason why Nel din't beat Luffy is because he is made out of rubber. Nel DF is lighning<rubber.

Right it was to show how DFs match up but anyways beyond that I think if Enel is brought back into the story he will have a way to counteract luffy's rubber or nullify it -- but that would be in vain because luffy at that point would have gained control of his haki and still kick his rear. THIS IS WAY OFF TOPIC. :X

But ya if there is any chance Enel comes back it will be a minor role like him taking over an Island that the SHs stop on and Luffy will quickly dispatch him.

roxas_strife2
August 13, 2010, 08:07 PM
That fight is nowhere to be found in the manga, where they only clash (similar to Ace and Aokiji in the war) in one panel. (And as Spam286 pointed out, Smoke was a Captain as that time (Commodore now) so it's argueable if Smoker himself is able to utilize Haki)



There are several occasions where the Admirals very likely used Haki, but that aside, I don't see how being a Logia-user has anything to do with utilizing Haki...

To my knowledge, Haki is the expression of an ambition, i.e. to hit someone despite their Devil Fruit defenses (Logia intangibility, Rubber body, Buggy's Bara Bara fruit etc). How would utilize Haki "disrupt" a Logia's defense anymore than it would Luffy's rubber defense?

That being said, I think Enel would stand a fairly good chance against a few of the higher tiers such as some of the Shichibukai and VA's, but would fall before the toughest guys (Yonkou's and their strongest crew members, the Admiral's etc), duo to his potent Devil Fruit and mantra (which is confirmed as a use of Haki (the guy did have the ambition to be a God after all...)).

Can you provide any substantial proof of them using Haki that wasn't something that already was in their DF abilities?

Well, let me put it this way. What if Haki requires corporeal form? When your body is not entirely your body, Haki is not possible. Basically, when in-between the physical state of element and human, Haki isn't available for use. I'm not saying they can't use it, but that if they did they might not could enter element form, which would in general be a weak point for them. I realize inanimate objects can be imbued with Haki too, but without the whole body for the Haki to originate from it is not available. Not that someone like say Franky couldn't use Haki, but I'm just saying this might be a condition of Haki.

It's not that I entirely believe this, but it's not impossible or something that can be dismissed either with the knowledge we have thus far.

I believe Haki to be the manifestation of the emotional on the physical realm. Possibly just willpower and general instinct even. Who knows? It could be related to all of these things.

fcToho
August 14, 2010, 06:56 AM
I think this (http://www.mangareader.net/103-40169-10/one-piece/chapter-564.html) is the best proof for the haki powers the admirals possess.

And imo Enel would benefit the story as much as Crocodile does. Enel wouldn't play the sneaky and cool role like Croco, but more the megalomaniac and comedy (?) role. :amuse I'm sure he would have good story parts.

Wisshard
August 14, 2010, 11:38 AM
Can you provide any substantial proof of them using Haki that wasn't something that already was in their DF abilities?
fcToho provided the link to the scene which I was thinking of (as I said, it's very likely that they used Haki in that scene (considering they're confirmed (by Coby's doctor) to be Haki-user) though it's not confirmed).


Well, let me put it this way. What if Haki requires corporeal form? When your body is not entirely your body, Haki is not possible. Basically, when in-between the physical state of element and human, Haki isn't available for use. I'm not saying they can't use it, but that if they did they might not could enter element form, which would in general be a weak point for them. I realize inanimate objects can be imbued with Haki too, but without the whole body for the Haki to originate from it is not available. Not that someone like say Franky couldn't use Haki, but I'm just saying this might be a condition of Haki.

It's not that I entirely believe this, but it's not impossible or something that can be dismissed either with the knowledge we have thus far.

I believe Haki to be the manifestation of the emotional on the physical realm. Possibly just willpower and general instinct even. Who knows? It could be related to all of these things.

There is sparse information of Haki at this point, but nothing I've seen implies that Haki interferes with the Haki-users own Devil Fruit, and I don't see why Akainu's magma body would stop him from using Haki when Luffy's rubber body (or Marco's phoenix body) obviously doesn't.

That being said, Enel used mantra (confirmed to be a form of Haki) in tandem with his lightning logia, so I think you speculating a little too far outside the box here...:)

CBlitz
August 14, 2010, 11:44 AM
I think Enel was easily Aokiji/Ace level, Luffy only beat the crap out of him because he was rubber. Well Enel was basically pretty weak without his fruit, I don't know if the same can be said about Aokiji though....

vagabond87
August 14, 2010, 01:22 PM
I think Enel was easily Aokiji/Ace level, Luffy only beat the crap out of him because he was rubber. Well Enel was basically pretty weak without his fruit, I don't know if the same can be said about Aokiji though....

I think that Aokiji and Ace are both supreme to Enel in therms of strenght.
When Ace fought with BB Van Augur was amazed by Ace basic fighting abilities even without his logia power. Akoiji is Admiral so... He is beast(lazy one but not sloth ;) ) who almost finished Whitebeard with partisan(if Jozu didnt helped WB we dont know how things would end up..) so he is strong and fast enough to take one best fighters in OP world. Enel have mantra and he can tank a lot of rubber punches and... I dont know ;) One golden ball(bell? :P) in the head and he is out.
But he is very good in using his fruit- comparable to Ace and Aokiji- so that is the most impressive of his fighting abilities beside mantra powered up by his DF power.
Probably some of VA can take him out after some tough fight.

johnnyb7
August 14, 2010, 07:17 PM
no no no, enel can't come back. if he does it'd be a quick scene where luffy would knock him out and that'd take away from how epic enel was during the skypiea arc. he's gonna stay up on the moon i say, and i hope.

Cizuz
August 15, 2010, 07:48 AM
Well I think everyone forgets one simple fact, enel had NO one to ever face him and hurt him prior to that arc, he always devastated and relied on his devil fruit. He also relied on mantra, now that he knows someone is out there capable of doing that maybe he won't be lazy like he was for past 10 years~ with people slaving over him getting lazy and dull with actual fighting ability.

Not that he could improve to the point over luffy, but it seems oda made enel seem the way he did so luffy could win, and possibly have another fight in the future. Think about it, enel was lazy for last 10+ years just being waited on by women. He gets dull, lazy and relied on his DF 100%. It's like oda wanted him to be like that so when luffy fought him his fighting ability would be dull so no real chance, so later one enel will be able to control it more. I don't think he nearly mastered his devil fruit however, some logias can partially transform there body, if enel mastered that he could be lightning, then partially transform a fist into a normal fist and hit luffy, for example. Something like what kizaru does.

kkck
August 16, 2010, 10:00 AM
When was mantra confirmed to be a form of haki? I think I missed that bit....

roxas_strife2
August 16, 2010, 10:17 AM
fcToho provided the link to the scene which I was thinking of (as I said, it's very likely that they used Haki in that scene (considering they're confirmed (by Coby's doctor) to be Haki-user) though it's not confirmed).



There is sparse information of Haki at this point, but nothing I've seen implies that Haki interferes with the Haki-users own Devil Fruit, and I don't see why Akainu's magma body would stop him from using Haki when Luffy's rubber body (or Marco's phoenix body) obviously doesn't.

That being said, Enel used mantra (confirmed to be a form of Haki) in tandem with his lightning logia, so I think you speculating a little too far outside the box here...:)

I said I don't doubt they can use Haki, but that it wouldn't play as big of a role as their DF powers. When you have DFs that powerful, why would you have to use Haki to hurt Luffy? Luffy's body is still Luffy's body, it's just elastic. He still is an organism, and Marco is too. He never once turned into the blue flames, he generated those flames from his pheonix form. Those who use more energy based elements, such as Ace, Kizaru, and Enel have the ability to generate their element very easily without having to change form along with it, like when Kizaru made that light sword and fought with it. Name one time Enel displayed his mantra being in effect while he wasn't just generating lightning, but in actual lightning form. His powers were almost too quick for there to even be a noticeable difference.

There's just nothing dismissing it.

kkck
August 16, 2010, 10:43 AM
IMO even if you have a DF power, you'd still need haki to hurt luffy properly. Take the fight between lucci and luffy. Luffy took a lot of damage in that fight but a big deal of it was lost simply because he was made of rubber. Had lucci been able to hurt luffy with his attacks as he would anyone else (something haki would apparently enable him to do) luffy would have had a significantly harder time. I don't see luffy surviving a haki charged shigan to the throat for instance.

Wisshard
August 16, 2010, 11:16 AM
When was mantra confirmed to be a form of haki? I think I missed that bit....

When Coby awoke his latent Haki during the war, he displayed it in a manner that was remarkably similar to mantra, and Boa Sandersonia also possess an Haki ability very similar to mantra.
However it hasn't been outright confirmed so I was a little rash...


I said I don't doubt they can use Haki, but that it wouldn't play as big of a role as their DF powers. When you have DFs that powerful, why would you have to use Haki to hurt Luffy? Luffy's body is still Luffy's body, it's just elastic. He still is an organism, and Marco is too. He never once turned into the blue flames, he generated those flames from his pheonix form. Those who use more energy based elements, such as Ace, Kizaru, and Enel have the ability to generate their element very easily without having to change form along with it, like when Kizaru made that light sword and fought with it. Name one time Enel displayed his mantra being in effect while he wasn't just generating lightning, but in actual lightning form. His powers were almost too quick for there to even be a noticeable difference.

There's just nothing dismissing it.

(I'm not sure what you mean with Marco never once turning into blue flames? Marco is a Zoan, he can't turn into blue flames, but generate those flames to heal his wounds.)

We see here (http://www.mangareader.net/103-2387-4/one-piece/chapter-280.html) and here (http://www.mangareader.net/103-2387-5/one-piece/chapter-280.html) that Enel can use his mantra in tandem with his lightning logia.

The way I see it, Haki is used constantly when top tiers fights, both to defend and to attack with greater effefiency (i.e. Aokiji battling Whietbeard's Haki to avoid the stab in his gut or Akainu negating the slash from Vista to a small cut) but alas, that is only speculation...

That being said, of course the Admiral's doesn't need Haki to harm the current Luffy but I'd expect them to need Haki to battle the likes of Whitebeard and Shanks, or Enel and Smoker for that matter. However I reckon that physical/fruit/martial prowess is still the most important factor of a fight at higher tiers where most likely everyone has Haki.

roxas_strife2
August 16, 2010, 01:20 PM
When Coby awoke his latent Haki during the war, he displayed it in a manner that was remarkably similar to mantra, and Boa Sandersonia also possess an Haki ability very similar to mantra.
However it hasn't been outright confirmed so I was a little rash...



(I'm not sure what you mean with Marco never once turning into blue flames? Marco is a Zoan, he can't turn into blue flames, but generate those flames to heal his wounds.)

We see here (http://www.mangareader.net/103-2387-4/one-piece/chapter-280.html) and here (http://www.mangareader.net/103-2387-5/one-piece/chapter-280.html) that Enel can use his mantra in tandem with his lightning logia.

The way I see it, Haki is used constantly when top tiers fights, both to defend and to attack with greater effefiency (i.e. Aokiji battling Whietbeard's Haki to avoid the stab in his gut or Akainu negating the slash from Vista to a small cut) but alas, that is only speculation...

That being said, of course the Admiral's doesn't need Haki to harm the current Luffy but I'd expect them to need Haki to battle the likes of Whitebeard and Shanks, or Enel and Smoker for that matter. However I reckon that physical/fruit/martial prowess is still the most important factor of a fight at higher tiers where most likely everyone has Haki.

Those examples are of him using mantra then using his lightning form to dodge. None of them are him using Mantra while in actual lightning form. -_-

I talked about Marco because you used Luffy and him as examples of people who have used Haki in tangent with their DF abilities, and I was saying that because Marco is a special case of a Zoan who can generate blue flames, an ability akin to that of a Logia.

Wisshard
August 16, 2010, 01:40 PM
Those examples are of him using mantra then using his lightning form to dodge. None of them are him using Mantra while in actual lightning form. -_-

From what I understood of the scene, Enel started using Mantra and didn't stop using it after an avoided blow and then start again with Luffy's next attack, but rather kept it on constantly as he battles Luffy. Nothing in the scene suggest that Enel can't use Mantra with his lightning form.

roxas_strife2
August 16, 2010, 02:29 PM
From what I understood of the scene, Enel started using Mantra and didn't stop using it after an avoided blow and then start again with Luffy's next attack, but rather kept it on constantly as he battles Luffy. Nothing in the scene suggest that Enel can't use Mantra with his lightning form.

Which is why I said earlier that his abilities are too fast paced to find any notable differences. The man is as fast as a bolt of lightning.

elitefox
August 16, 2010, 09:05 PM
Which is why I said earlier that his abilities are too fast paced to find any notable differences. The man is as fast as a bolt of lightning.

Kisaru is as fast as light :D

and Rayleigh can keep him lol..


I wonder if enel can keep up with haki:p

Cizuz
August 17, 2010, 11:50 AM
Kisaru is as fast as light :D

and Rayleigh can keep him lol..


I wonder if enel can keep up with haki:p
The major misconception here is assuming Kizaru is as fast as light. The problem is his logia form is light, so he can travel as fast as light during that form. His actual body could not move that fast, he might in mid kick turn part of his leg solid as what he did to basil hawkins.

However when he is light he is basically flying blind, he can pick where he wants to go and move to that area, but at that speed there is absolutely no way for him to react if something goes wrong, the literal electrical signals in his brain could not signal or trigger anything in the brain to react at all.

However rayleigh kept up with him in his solid form, as when kizaru made his blade of light he became tangable, and couldn't move a fraction of what he can in logia form. In light mode he wouldn't of been able to cause much damage without concentrating that light into a laser, what he does when he charges his leg, or makes a sword, however in pure light form if you were to be hit by him, it would be simliar to being hit by normal light, unless he can concentrate his entire body into a movable laser(lol). He is a thinking bullet, sure he can move at light speed, but can't change his direction without stopping first, and can't stop until he thinks about stopping, or stops at his planned destination.

Schabrak
August 17, 2010, 06:01 PM
Please don't put to much science into my beloved One Piece. You, I , we, nobody but Oda knows what characters can do and what not, so please, state it as a theory, but not a fact. Who said Kizaru wouldn't be able to think faster through his Devil Fruit?

Cizuz
August 17, 2010, 08:06 PM
Please don't put to much science into my beloved One Piece. You, I , we, nobody but Oda knows what characters can do and what not, so please, state it as a theory, but not a fact. Who said Kizaru wouldn't be able to think faster through his Devil Fruit?

Because even if his electrical signals were traveling at the speed of light(Close), it would still not register fast enough.

If we can assume in one piece light speed is still 300,000 KM/s, and even if all electrical signals traveled at the speed of light, light hitting the eye, traveling to the brain, then registering, would still take to long. Kizaru any way you look at it is a blind bullet. He can think to kick, and his muscles already are going that route, but could not stop half way if in danger.

It is extrodinairly impressive he can even stay on earth or alive. He is at such a huge disadvantage, if at all he ever makes a mistake he could fire himself into water. Visibly you can see for about 11 KMs on a clear day, if for example he looked and didn't SEE any water, and decided to move in that direction, and there was water 12 km away, he would have about 0.036 milliseconds to respond. He would travel that distance in that time, and would have to respond before that to stop hitting the water and basically becoming a hammer. The average reaction time of a human is around 250 milli seconds, and fastest ever recorded legal reaction time is 100 milli seconds. The time it literally takes the brain to respond to any situation, any data the FASTEST, is 5 milliseconds. That is the fastest POSSIBLE. If Normally your brain registers at around 10 milliseconds, then it decides what to do when seeing new information another 25 milliseconds, then time to actually TELL the body what to do is another 25 milli seconds. The fastest possible reaction should be 65 milli seconds. Period for a human. The house fly reacts at around 20 milli seconds.

However to react at 0.036 milli seconds? implossible.

What kizaru does, is decides where his body NEEDS to go before hand, then makes his body move to that predetermined location. He can not react in between that. His actual body movements out of logia are much much slower then light speed which is why rayliegh could actually fight him.

Even DBZ followed this logic.

Franckie
August 17, 2010, 08:46 PM
I think Enel was easily Aokiji/Ace level, Luffy only beat the crap out of him because he was rubber. Well Enel was basically pretty weak without his fruit, I don't know if the same can be said about Aokiji though....
Enel without his DF is far from a weakling. He can predict attacks via Mantra and his physical abilities are on par with other high-tier fighters.

c0nflikt
August 17, 2010, 09:10 PM
I think Enel if he is ever reintroduced will be even more amazingly powerful, he will have a space pirate crew and space pirating experience. Enel vs a few key characters would = a loss, but look at buggy he goes along and never fights anyone powerful i think a reintroduced enel would be similar and just crush people who had no chance against him.

roxas_strife2
August 18, 2010, 10:44 AM
Because even if his electrical signals were traveling at the speed of light(Close), it would still not register fast enough.

If we can assume in one piece light speed is still 300,000 KM/s, and even if all electrical signals traveled at the speed of light, light hitting the eye, traveling to the brain, then registering, would still take to long. Kizaru any way you look at it is a blind bullet. He can think to kick, and his muscles already are going that route, but could not stop half way if in danger.

It is extrodinairly impressive he can even stay on earth or alive. He is at such a huge disadvantage, if at all he ever makes a mistake he could fire himself into water. Visibly you can see for about 11 KMs on a clear day, if for example he looked and didn't SEE any water, and decided to move in that direction, and there was water 12 km away, he would have about 0.036 milliseconds to respond. He would travel that distance in that time, and would have to respond before that to stop hitting the water and basically becoming a hammer. The average reaction time of a human is around 250 milli seconds, and fastest ever recorded legal reaction time is 100 milli seconds. The time it literally takes the brain to respond to any situation, any data the FASTEST, is 5 milliseconds. That is the fastest POSSIBLE. If Normally your brain registers at around 10 milliseconds, then it decides what to do when seeing new information another 25 milliseconds, then time to actually TELL the body what to do is another 25 milli seconds. The fastest possible reaction should be 65 milli seconds. Period for a human. The house fly reacts at around 20 milli seconds.

However to react at 0.036 milli seconds? implossible.

What kizaru does, is decides where his body NEEDS to go before hand, then makes his body move to that predetermined location. He can not react in between that. His actual body movements out of logia are much much slower then light speed which is why rayliegh could actually fight him.

Even DBZ followed this logic.

Are you referring to Goku's Instant Transmission?

Schabrak
August 19, 2010, 09:36 AM
Because even if his electrical signals were traveling at the speed of light(Close), it would still not register fast enough
... "reality"[edited by me Schabrak] ...
Even DBZ followed this logic.
What about: "Please don't put to much science into my beloved One Piece.", didn't you understand? Don't try to lecture me on physics, I already had that at school and university.-_- Yeah One Piece follows reality to some kind, but with people controling elements, being able to transform into animals or become a rubber man it's clearly a fantasy story, where things follow the authors wishes not the laws of nature. Most of the Rokushiki attacks should not be able, if we follow your logic, like Soru, Rankyaku and Geppou. If Kizaru is made out of light, why would it take him time to think or how is he able to think, if there is no brain to thinks being in thate state? [reth. question fyi]

The only real logic in DBZ was, that high gravity helped people to train and energy blast formed out of their inner power could destroy mountains and later even planets.

roxas_strife2
August 19, 2010, 10:09 AM
What about: "Please don't put to much science into my beloved One Piece.", didn't you understand? Don't try to lecture me on physics, I already had that at school and university.-_- Yeah One Piece follows reality to some kind, but with people controling elements, being able to transform into animals or become a rubber man it's clearly a fantasy story, where things follow the authors wishes not the laws of nature. Most of the Rokushiki attacks should not be able, if we follow your logic, like Soru, Rankyaku and Geppou. If Kizaru is made out of light, why would it take him time to think or how is he able to think, if there is no brain to thinks being in thate state? [reth. question fyi]

The only real logic in DBZ was, that high gravity helped people to train and energy blast formed out of their inner power could destroy mountains and later even planets.

And even further into the series, they could destroy solar systems. I wouldn't use Dragon Ball Z as reference for the logical. They also used higher gravity to claim that time went by much faster in it(ex: Hyperbolic Time Chamber), which is related to a concept in Jojo's Bizarre Adventure, and possibly in other physics platforms, but I doubt it.

And if you wanted to get into it, how about you explain how Luffy can see in his heightened Gear 2 state, or how anybody can use Soru and maintain a line of sight, or how Logia's see when they use that ability that works a lot like instant transmission for them.

Ero-Sanji
August 19, 2010, 11:33 AM
It's not about classes of logia, infact magma is the worst thing for ace. The reason oda better use for it to atleast make any sort of sense is that fire and magma can both produce an intense amount of heat, and both should be the same, however fire needs oxygen to burn, and magma is just hot molten rock that doesn't need oxygen to burn but could exhaust oxygen in the area, so when Ace got hit, his body COULDN'T become fire, due to no oxygen.

I love One Piece due to Oda thinks of good ways to counteract devil fruits then the ways people would think are obvious. Fire vs Water etc, but instead he does a fire vs magma, who would think ANYTHING would come of that?

Seriously I do agree with this but I thought a little about it and shouldn't smoke do the same to fire too? I mean shouldn't the smoke exhaust the oxygen as well? Smoke inhalation is extremely dangerous to humans due to the low amount of oxygen and high amount of toxic gases etc. So, smokers smoke should be able to prevent Ace from turning to fire as well, no?

Anyway, I think one of the bad thins Oda did was to nerf Enel down. I mean the guy is supposed to be lightning but whiled fighting Luffy he slowed down, a lot. Before that fight we saw him travel long distances in a short amount of time.

Personally I think Enel would be as hard to face as Kizaru except Kizaru might be able to counter you're Haki while Enel wouldn't. However Enel was/is a great fighter and smart to the only problem is his megalomani. I would probably place him besides Magellan.

Cizuz
August 19, 2010, 01:46 PM
Seriously I do agree with this but I thought a little about it and shouldn't smoke do the same to fire too? I mean shouldn't the smoke exhaust the oxygen as well? Smoke inhalation is extremely dangerous to humans due to the low amount of oxygen and high amount of toxic gases etc. So, smokers smoke should be able to prevent Ace from turning to fire as well, no?

Anyway, I think one of the bad thins Oda did was to nerf Enel down. I mean the guy is supposed to be lightning but whiled fighting Luffy he slowed down, a lot. Before that fight we saw him travel long distances in a short amount of time.

Personally I think Enel would be as hard to face as Kizaru except Kizaru might be able to counter you're Haki while Enel wouldn't. However Enel was/is a great fighter and smart to the only problem is his megalomani. I would probably place him besides Magellan.

But can smoker actually exhaust all of the oxygen in the area? And when we seen ace and smoker fighting they were swirling around eachother so aces body was always in contact with oxygen. I mean smoker might be able to completly surround aces and try to push all oxygen out of an area to prevent ace from becoming intangble. Plus here is what I didn't get, why didn't smoker use his sea stone rod on ace? I think both of them knew it was a pointless fight and didn't bother. See smoker could still have oxygen in in smoke, albiet at smaller quantities. On a side note, I don't know didn't think about it. We haven't been given an explanation for akainu vs ace, so I thought about it and thought what are the differences between magma and fire? Both are hot, both are logia, bother are intangible, but fire NEEDS oxygen to burn, then it hit me. He exhausted the oxygen.

However I think what akainu did was superheat the oxygen and burned it so that he could physically hurt ace. That or haki.

Even in DBZ though when using instant transmission they needed to think of a place, then move to it. They couldn't react.

Also this really has nothing to do with physics, it's logic. Until ODA actually states physics or logic don't apply in One Piece and that light speed is not the limit to speed, then it still apllies.

extrememangalover
August 24, 2010, 07:49 AM
Personally, I really hope he comes back soon whether as a strong New World pirate or as a new strong admiral marine. He's way too strong for a sacrificing character in this manga. Maybe my man Oda has a plan for him but can't wait to see him improved his power(his fruit ability and better personality)

Thread merged with "How powerfull is Enel considering everyone now?" Since both threads discuss the same subject, the possibility of the return of Enel.

roxas_strife2
August 24, 2010, 11:59 AM
But can smoker actually exhaust all of the oxygen in the area? And when we seen ace and smoker fighting they were swirling around eachother so aces body was always in contact with oxygen. I mean smoker might be able to completly surround aces and try to push all oxygen out of an area to prevent ace from becoming intangble. Plus here is what I didn't get, why didn't smoker use his sea stone rod on ace? I think both of them knew it was a pointless fight and didn't bother. See smoker could still have oxygen in in smoke, albiet at smaller quantities. On a side note, I don't know didn't think about it. We haven't been given an explanation for akainu vs ace, so I thought about it and thought what are the differences between magma and fire? Both are hot, both are logia, bother are intangible, but fire NEEDS oxygen to burn, then it hit me. He exhausted the oxygen.

However I think what akainu did was superheat the oxygen and burned it so that he could physically hurt ace. That or haki.

Even in DBZ though when using instant transmission they needed to think of a place, then move to it. They couldn't react.

Also this really has nothing to do with physics, it's logic. Until ODA actually states physics or logic don't apply in One Piece and that light speed is not the limit to speed, then it still apllies.

Ace can generate flames and turn into them. Just because someone strained the oxygen doesn't mean he can't do his thing. I theorize it was that he had a molting material that was both hotter and more substantial in a near liquid like state.

Wisshard
August 24, 2010, 03:44 PM
[...]And when we seen ace and smoker fighting they were swirling around eachother so aces body was always in contact with oxygen. [...]
Filler fight, all they did was a brief clash (as Ace and Aokiji in the war) in the manga.

kkck
August 24, 2010, 04:37 PM
Even though I do think enel is extremely powerful, I can't imagine him going up against the tough guys around. IMO he'd lose rather easily to all 3 admirals. I also think he'd lose to most of the shichibukai, commanders and VAs.... On the other hand, his power has shown to be immense to say the least. His ability does allow him to move fast but his actual physical capacities are not exceptionally high, IMO even characters who are not top tier would match him in that aspect.

Cizuz
August 24, 2010, 04:37 PM
Ace can generate flames and turn into them. Just because someone strained the oxygen doesn't mean he can't do his thing. I theorize it was that he had a molting material that was both hotter and more substantial in a near liquid like state.

I don't think you read my post at all. To make fire, you need to have oxygen, fire is just rapid oxidation of a material releasing vast amount of heat and combustion. What ace can do is turn himself into fire when oxygen is present. Which is basically everywhere normally. It's the same thing, sand with crocodile needs to be dry or else it will clump and stay solid. Crocodile being hit with water was the worst thing for him. I think we forget how strong some people like enel etc are.

Also same thing with enel, why does rubber solidify electricity? In the real world all rubber hitting electricity would do is cause electricity to move around it, or stay in one place, not turn to solid.