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Gran Maestro
May 22, 2010, 04:03 AM
From wikia:

"Hierro (鋼皮 (イエロ), iero; Spanish for "Iron," Japanese for "Steel Skin") is an Arrancar technique in which the user's reiryoku condenses, creating a steel-hard skin strong enough to block a Zanpakutō."

What's your opinion about hierro?

- Did Nnoitra indeed have the strongest hierro?

- Can an arrancar improve his hierro by training?

- Can a shinigami (other than Yamamoto) defeat arrancars in hand-to-hand combat without getting injured because of the hierro?

- What's the relevance of arrancar's reiatsu to his hierro strength? Is hierro strength random or is it somewhat proportional to the reiatsu of the arrancar (unless this arrancar is a hierro monster like Nnoitra)?

- Does resurreccion increase hierro strength?

Richo
May 22, 2010, 11:01 AM
there are only a few captains who fought multiply espada, so we cannot realy define the strenght of hierro.

Zaraki Kenpachi has fought multiply arrancar: Tesla, Nnoitra and Yami.
Tesla was only fraccion and wasn't a problem, however nnoitra gave kenpachi alot of trouble at the start, where as he cut through yami his hierro like butter.
To me it seems like arrancar abilities like Sonido, Hierro and other abilities are not perse bound to their reiatsu or general strenght. Nnoitra is 5th among the espada and had the strongest hierro, the 7th espada is said to have the fastest Sonido among the espada and gave Byakuya a run for it a few times.

Hierro is nothing more then youre Reiatsu focused on youre body, the strenght of the hierro is probably determed by: Concentration, Awareness, Reiatsu amount/strenght. Concentration to focus high amounts of reiatsu, and awareness is that hierro isn't always turned on.
I beileve Hierro itself can and cannot be trained, you need to train yourself in the aspects that define Hierro in order to strenghten it not hierro itself.

most shinigami do not use their bare hands to fight with exception of soi fon and yoruichi and yamamoto because he had his zanpaktou sealed. Yoruichi had trouble defeating yami unreleased so i reckon most shinigami will have problems defeating a arrancar with hand to hand combat.

El Samurai Guapo
May 22, 2010, 07:42 PM
Tesla was only fraccion and wasn't a problem, however nnoitra gave kenpachi alot of trouble at the start, where as he cut through yami his hierro like butter.

This.

To me, the fact that a one-handed + eyepatch Kenpachi was cutting off Yammi's legs (which are several times thicker than Nnoitora's entire body), while a eye-patchless kendo swing did not even cut through Nnoitora's entire body, goes to show that Nnoitora wasn't bluffing when he said he had the strongest hierro.

conn-man
November 22, 2010, 02:37 PM
Hierro has always been a really been a cool concept to me but since kubo never given it a complete explanation. We know its a clump of hardened spiritual energy but it seems like a characters level of SP doesnt determine its hardness. So I want to know is how does hierro work.

I would guess that its could just be a natural gift given by the evolution to arrancar, or it could be a technique that can be improved upon. If its the latter then we could say character intelligence plays the role in making it harder. Smarter, more analytical arrancar like ulquiorra and stark seemed to have exceptionaly hard hierro, while yammi who despite being the 0 espada(biggest reiatsu) had weaker hierro since he was an idiot. Explanation for nnoitra could be that he was just a natural genius at hardening hierro since the natural genius is always better than the calculating genius.

Takahashi
November 23, 2010, 08:05 PM
This.

To me, the fact that a one-handed + eyepatch Kenpachi was cutting off Yammi's legs (which are several times thicker than Nnoitora's entire body), while a eye-patchless kendo swing did not even cut through Nnoitora's entire body, goes to show that Nnoitora wasn't bluffing when he said he had the strongest hierro.

It's not like we had a reason to not believe the claims of the Espada in the first place. Now that they're all dead, we won't be getting any contradictory evidence. So we can safely assume that Ulq has the best regen, Noir has the best Hierro, and Zommari has the best Sonido.

I haven't exactly understood how Yammy was supposed to have the second strongest though, there's a SERIOUS gap between number 1 and number 2. Either that or Kubo is just so obsessed with limb cutting lately he hasn't noticed that Yammy's been getting horribly dismembered by everyone since the beginning :blink

Jackk
January 18, 2011, 07:58 PM
I'm going to address some things here~


-Using Bleach wiki as a source is almost never a good idea. Anyone can edit those wiki pages, which is why it is better to use direct manga pages as your supporting evidence.


-Hierro has never been stated to be a conscious ability that must be focused or activated. I've personally seen at least 3 different people claiming that the second data book stated that Hierro is a conscious ability that must be activated;however, the second data book definitely did not state such a thing.





First of all, translation of Yammi's profile can be found here: http://bleachasylum.com/threads/15426-Bleach-Character-Book-2-Masked?p=2591973&viewfull=1#post2591973 ...apparently his hierro boasts a hardness that is only second to Nnoitra. In addition, that translation of Yami's data book profile does include a part that states the following:

"Yammi got his arm lopped off in an instant. The grim reason is for misreading his opponent's power. The right arm was retrieved and then afterwards restored."

Nevertheless, that small paragraph in particular isn't even giving any new information from Kubo. Look in the following spoiler:


http://dl01.mangashare.com/manga/Bleach/193/014.jpg

Here's the link: http://read.mangashare.com/Bleach/chapter-193/page014.html


Basically that data book translation is restating something that Kubo had already stated long ago through Ulquiorra in that particular scene. And says that if only Yammi had taken the second to sense Ichigo's spirit pressure, he might have been ready for the attack. This could mean that he might have had a chance to dodge or block with his own sword enough to save his arm. Further, that data book translation is only stating that Yami lost his arm for misreading his opponent's power, which is entirely true according to that manga page where Ulquiorra makes note of that. Yami did misjudge Ichigo's power and underestimated Ichigo (although Yami really underestimates all his opponents, and he's always talking big...), but it doesn't mean that Ichigo still wasn't better than Yami anyway. Besides Ichigo looked resolved and pretty determined to cut off Yami's arm (http://read.mangashare.com/Bleach/chapter-193/page012.html) since Yami had severely hurt Chad's arm. Let's also remember the fact that Bankai Ichigo takes all of the power of bankai and compresses it into a small, condense form (http://read.mangashare.com/Bleach/chapter-163/page018.html). Further, we do know that Ichigo's Bankai blade is certainly pretty sharp and strong;
even Gin had said that it felt as if his own blade was about to snap when they were clashing. http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-chapter-413-page-9.html

In any case, Ulquiorra even says: "Still though...for that kid to cut through Yami's hierro" (steel skin)... Therefore, I think that it's actually safe to say that Yami's hierro was actually active, as even Ulquiorra mentions that Ichigo was able to cut through it. Nothing was ever mentioned about them needing to actually consciously activate their hierro, and Ulquiorra's statements seem to indicate that it's always active.

As if that wasn't already enough, Look at the following link: http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-chapter-307-page-19.html ... Nnoitra is clearly taken by surprise by Kenpachi's strike as it's evident from Nnoitra's shocked expression, yet after the attack... Nnoitra laughs after realizing that Kenpachi's strike had done nothing to him. Nnoitra then says: "How many times do I have to say it?! My hierro is the strongest in the history of all espada!!! There's no way the swords of you shinigami could ever cut me!!!" (we do know that Kenpachi was later able to adjust to Nnoitra's steel skin/hierro;however, Kenpachi could not cut him initially by any means... since hierro is apparently always active)

http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-chapter-307-page-20.html
http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-chapter-307-page-21.html


In other news~


-It is interesting to note that the second data book apparently only states that Zommari was proud of his Sonido, and that he "boasts" it is the fastest in the Espada. This implies that he may not truly have the fastest sonido http://www.bleachforums.com/showthread.php/44132-Character-Book-Masked?p=1466151&viewfull=1#post1466151 ...On the other hand, the second data book apparently does confirm that Nnoitra did have the hardest hierro. http://bleachasylum.com/threads/15792-Nnoitra-FC-v2-Pray-for-the-Mantis?p=2453036&viewfull=1#post2453036



-I personally certainly agree with those who claim that Yami's hierro was really not shown to be very impressive based on the fact that he got his limbs sliced like butter several times. Nevertheless, the second data book apparently does state that Yami had the second hardest hierro. Now, Yami having the second hardest hierro does explain how he was able to injure Yoruichi's arm and leg. Granted Yami's hierro hurt a rusty Yoruichi, and she later stated that it was her own fault since she could have avoided it had she used Shunko, but she also stated that she wasn't expecting them to have such a hard hide. Furthermore, I'll restate that Yami's arm being cut off by Bankai Ichigo can be explained by Ichigo's resolve and determination to cut off Yami's arm as pay back for Yami having severely hurt Chad's arm... and the fact that Ichigo's Bankai blade takes all of the power of bankai and compresses it into a small, condense form; we even know that Ichigo's Bankai blade is certainly pretty sharp and strong since even Gin stated that it felt as if his own blade was about to snap when they were clashing.

In addition, Kenpachi easily cutting Yami's legs could be explained by the fact that Kenpachi had already fought and defeated Nnoitra. We do know that Nnoitra had the hardest hierro out of all the espada, and Kenpachi couldn't cut him initially;however, Kenpachi did get used to or was able to adapt to Nnoitra's hardness (http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-chapter-309-page-16.html) later on, thus he was eventually able to cut him. Therefore, having already gotten to a point where he could cut through the hardest hierro, it's certainly not illogical for Kenpachi to be able to more easily cut through Yami, who's hierro is weaker than Nnoitra's. I suppose that rather than calling Kubo inconsistent in this case, we could call him cruel towards Yami...since he gave him pretty bad match ups, to say the least.


-Finally, there should also be no doubt that hierro does not depend on the amount of reiatsu that its user has. This is because we know for a fact that Nnoitra has the hardest hierro, yet we also know from the second data book that Espadas were ranked by reiatsu (http://bleachasylum.com/threads/15426-Bleach-Character-Book-2-Masked?p=2449857&viewfull=1#post2449857). Heck even the manga had already highly implied this when Ulquiorra mentioned that only espada ranked 4 and above were not allowed to release (http://read.mangashare.com/Bleach/chapter-345/page008.html) their resurreccion inside the temple of las noches... due to their reiatsu being so high that it could destroy the temple. Therefore, a higher ranked Espada doesn't necessarily have a harder hierro than lower ranked Espadas or arrancars; Nnoitra was only the 5th Espada after all, yet his hierro was the hardest.

Random101
January 19, 2011, 08:12 PM
Several issues. Firstly a similarly resolved Ichigo was only barely able to get through Ulquiorra's Hierro, despite outright stated increases in power. Yammi has the second strongest and he was able to cut through him effortlessly. Suffice to say there's already discrepancies there.

Secondly this:

Nnoitra is clearly taken by surprise by Kenpachi's strike as it's evident from Nnoitra's shocked expression,
That's not a shocked expression. 'Shocked' in this sort of sense would imply a nice bubble with exclaimation points and/or a question mark, that's how it's always done in breif bits like this as a reaction to quick movements. It's hard to say what exactly said expression means (I'd say it's an expression of frustration that this dude is keeping at it but that may be because his chewing on his lip there reminds me of those FFFFFFFFFFFFFUU-memes), but whatever it is doesn't imply what you want it to imply there. Were it even shock in the first place, that there's no freaking context means that you can't even say it's due to the strike itself. Not even remotely a solid argument to say the least.

Jackk
January 19, 2011, 09:20 PM
Several issues. Firstly a similarly resolved Ichigo was only barely able to get through Ulquiorra's Hierro, despite outright stated increases in power. Yammi has the second strongest and he was able to cut through him effortlessly. Suffice to say there's already discrepancies there.

I gave a very good explanation for Ichigo being able to cut through Yami's hierro. Ichigo's Bankai blade being very strong and sharp since it compress all of the power of his Bankai into that small form and even Gin made note of how his own blade was about to snap when they were clashing, then Ichigo's resolve and very high determination to cut Yami's arm as pay back for him severely injuring Chad's arm. Heck I even forgot to mention the fact that in that same chapter... Ulquiorra even mentions the fact that Ichigo's power was fluctuating a lot! It was stated that at some points Ichigo was trash, but then at other points... Ichigo's power was also even greater than Ulquiorra's; this was stated by Ulquiorra himself!

In any case though, even though I gave an explanation.... it really was not necessary, considering that fact that Ulquiorra himself outright stated that Ichigo actually cut through Yami's hierro as it's clearly shown in the manga page that I posted. Seriously Random101, you're arguing against a manga FACT here; that's a battle you cannot possibly win, sorry.


That's not a shocked expression. 'Shocked' in this sort of sense would imply a nice bubble with exclaimation points and/or a question mark, that's how it's always done in breif bits like this as a reaction to quick movements. It's hard to say what exactly said expression means (I'd say it's an expression of frustration that this dude is keeping at it but that may be because his chewing on his lip there reminds me of those FFFFFFFFFFFFFUU-memes), but whatever it is doesn't imply what you want it to imply there. Were it even shock in the first place, that there's no freaking context means that you can't even say it's due to the strike itself. Not even remotely a solid argument to say the least.

Also, no! ... a nice bubble with "exclaimation" points is not needed, and neither is a question mark. It is crystal clear that Nnoitra was surprised that Kenpachi managed to land a hit on him. Now, if you would only do as much as actually read my previous post...you would see why this is the case. Heck Nnoitra outright tells Kenpachi that there is no way that his sword could ever cut him! Obviously this also means that it's because his hierro is always active, thus even if Kenpachi managed to strike him by surprise again or even if Kenpachi actually showed that he was skilled enough to actually be able to land hits on Nnoitra... he would still not be able to cut Nnoitra! Granted Kenpachi was later able to adapt to Nnoitra's "hardness" ...but that doesn't change the fact that he initially could not cut him at all.

There is absolutely nothing in the manga that states that hierro must be activated by the user, in fact, what we do see in the manga clearly, at bare minimum, highly implies that it is always active!

Random101
January 19, 2011, 09:29 PM
Ichigo's Bankai blade being very strong and sharp since it compress all of the power of his Bankai into that small form and even Gin made note that his own blade was about to snap, then Ichigo's resolve and very high determination to cut Yami's arm as pay back him severely injuring Chad's arm.
Ichigo was IN bankai when he couldn't cut through Ulquiorra's Hierro. After he'd outright been stated to have gotten stronger no less. >>


Ulquiorra himself outright stated that Ichigo actually cut though Yami's hierro
Indeed. The problem with your arguement: You're assuming that him being inadequetely prepared means he should have been able to dodge or some other BS. How bout his Hierro wasn't at full snuff due to underestimating the opponent? You know, like how Nnoitra outright says that Kenpachi got a moment of luck in when he first managed to cut him?


Ulquiorra even mentions the fact that Ichigo's power was fluctuation a lot!
After the hollow attempts to jack him thank you very much. >>

I think we all know what that's implying.


It is crystal clear that Nnoitra was surprised that Kenpachi managed to land a hit on him.
And I see a frustrated and/or annoyed face not a shocked one. So no, it's not crystal clear.


Heck Nnoitra outright tells Kenpachi that there is no way that his sword could ever cut him! Obviously this also means that it's because his hierro is always active, thus even if Kenpachi managed to strike him by surprise again or even if Kenpachi actually showed that he was skilled enough to actually be able to land hits on Nnoitra... he would still not be able to cut Nnoitra!
And yet there's this bit: http://www.mangareader.net/94-762-11/bleach/chapter-308.html

What was it you just said? Oh yes:


thus even if Kenpachi managed to strike him by surprise again or even if Kenpachi actually showed that he was skilled enough to actually be able to land hits on Nnoitra... he would still not be able to cut Nnoitra!
And yet he claims that in a case in which he managed to cut the first time it was a moment of luck. Why? Clearly you just stated that no matter what he would never be able to cut him because heirro's always active. There's never going to be a moment of just luck if that's the case. Either you can cut or you can't cut, if hierro's always active all the time at the same strength then 'luck' is never happening.

Granted he proves it wasn't just luck by doing it again consistently throughout the fight, but that Nnoitra considers it a possibility at all just shot what you said down real fast to say the least.

I mean hell in said case it even looks like he strengthened it real quick to keep Kenpachi from cutting of his arm right there.

Jackk
January 20, 2011, 12:46 AM
Ichigo was IN bankai when he couldn't cut through Ulquiorra's Hierro. After he'd outright been stated to have gotten stronger no less. >>

-He did get stronger, but stronger in comparison to what? Ichigo's power fluctuates, that is no secret! And when this happens...he has no control over how much power he taps into. I mean, a shikai Ichigo was able to tap into so much power that he actually managed to K.O Kenpachi!! (no eye-patch Kenpachi) ...Further, we do know that Ichigo did not have complete control over his full power until after his Dangai training, where he was finally able to even utilize the power of tensa zangetsu and his hollow combined, which made him even more powerful than evolved Aizen.

-I do believe that in general, HM Ichigo is stronger and not weaker than SS Ichigo; Ichigo's hollow definitely did NOT make him weaker regardless of what some of you may wish to believe;however, Ichigo's power still fluctuates. Ichigo's power has fluctuated several times without him using his hollow powers and it has also fluctuated with him using his hollow powers. Vaizard Ichigo stopping grimmjow's hand all of a sudden without even looking and then easily cutting him down after seeing Orihime crying and telling him to not get hurt anymore is a perfect example.

-Ulquiorra still said that Ichigo was still inferior to him when they fought in Hueco mundo; Ichigo won due to his hollow as he turned into "ichigonator" ...

-Ulquiorra actually outright stated, in the chapter in which Ichigo sliced off Yami's arm, that Ichigo's power at some points would fluctuate to a point where his power is even higher than his own (higher than Ulquiorra's).


Indeed. The problem with your arguement: You're assuming that him being inadequetely prepared means he should have been able to dodge or some other BS. How bout his Hierro wasn't at full snuff due to underestimating the opponent? You know, like how Nnoitra outright says that Kenpachi got a moment of luck in when he first managed to cut him?

-My assumption is not illogical though; I actually gave a good explanation, but I'm not going to repeat myself...it is all on my first post in this thread. Further, you have no right to call my statements "BS" !

-Where was it stated that they needed to focus or activate their hierro?! ...Nowhere!

-Heck Ulquiorra was even surprised when he saw Ichigo slicing off Yami's arm! http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-chapter-193-page-12.html...And the fact that Ulquiorra outright stated that Ichigo actually cut through Yami's hierro is irrefutable! ... Nothing you say will change that manga fact, sorry. You're stubbornly claiming that Yami needed to activate his hierro or focus it, but that is completely baseless speculation; I mean, if what you're claiming was really the case... Ulquiorra (Kubo) would have explicitly told us this, but he did not! Nevertheless, Ulquiorra (Kubo) did tell us, very explicitly that Ichigo did, in fact, cut through Yami's hierro! That's all there is to it.


After the hollow attempts to jack him thank you very much. >>

-No, just no. Ulquiorra being shown to make that comment around that time does not really mean that Ichigo's power was only fluctuating when his hollow was messing with him! Heck Ulquiorra made the comment about Ichigo's power fluctuating in the same chapter in which Ichigo cut Yami's arm, thus it's perfectly believable that Ichigo's power could have fluctuated highly when he was very resolved and determined to cut Yami's arm. Furthermore, Ichigo's power has been fluctuating a lot throughout the whole manga; based on his emotions, resolve etc. We all know this! ...I mean, as noted already, a great example would even be when Ichigo was fighting Grimmjow in hueco mundo. First of all, we know for a fact that his hollow was NOT giving him problems at that point in time since Ichigo had actually just recently suppressed his inner hollow thanks to the vaizard's help, and there's also the fact that Ichigo, in his fight against Grimmjow in HM, was now even holding his mask for a very significant amount of time. That being said, we know that Ichigo and Grimmjow were fighting evenly for the most part, with perhaps Grimmjow having an edge at some point near the end, but then what happens? Yeah, Orihime starts crying and tells Ichigo to not get hurt anymore. What happens then? Yeah, Ichigo effortlessly stops and catches grimmjows's hand without even looking, as if it was nothing, then proceeds to cut Grimmjow.

http://www.mangafox.com/manga/bleach/v32/c283/19.html
http://www.mangafox.com/manga/bleach/v32/c283/20.html

Then, Ichigo proceeds to cut through Grimmjow's ultimate technique as if it was nothing, and then defeats Grimmjow as well.

http://www.mangafox.com/manga/bleach/v32/c285/15.html
http://www.mangafox.com/manga/bleach/v32/c285/16.html
http://www.mangafox.com/manga/bleach/v32/c285/17.html
http://www.mangafox.com/manga/bleach/v32/c285/19.html
http://www.mangafox.com/manga/bleach/v32/c285/20.html
http://www.mangafox.com/manga/bleach/v32/c285/21.html
http://www.mangafox.com/manga/bleach/v32/c285/22.html
http://www.mangafox.com/manga/bleach/v32/c286/4.html

Ichigo's hollow definitely does NOT need to be messing with him for Ichigo's power to fluctuate! Once again, his power fluctuates, thus his power was at a very high point when he cut off Yami's arm; it makes perfect sense...specially given Ichigo's very high determination to specifically set himself on cutting Yami's arm, after seeing how Yami had severely hurt Chad's arm. Ichigo stated that Yami owed him that arm etc. And Ulquiorra outright stated that Ichigo actually cut through Yami's hierro. It's undeniable.


And I see a frustrated and/or annoyed face not a shocked one. So no, it's not crystal clear.

Frustrated, how? Was Kenpachi slicing him so much that Nnoitra was frustrated? LOL no! Nnoitra was surprised that Kenpachi actually managed to hit him that time; he wasn't expecting that hit.


And yet there's this bit: http://www.mangareader.net/94-762-11/bleach/chapter-308.html

What was it you just said? Oh yes:


And yet he claims that in a case in which he managed to cut the first time it was a moment of luck. Why? Clearly you just stated that no matter what he would never be able to cut him because heirro's always active. There's never going to be a moment of just luck if that's the case. Either you can cut or you can't cut, if hierro's always active all the time at the same strength then 'luck' is never happening.

Granted he proves it wasn't just luck by doing it again consistently throughout the fight, but that Nnoitra considers it a possibility at all just shot what you said down real fast to say the least.

I mean hell in said case it even looks like he strengthened it real quick to keep Kenpachi from cutting of his arm right there.

-It was never stated that they needed to focus or activate their hierro; stop making things up. Further, Nnoitra attempted to block/stop Kenpachi's sword with his arm; Nnoitra really didn't believe that Kenpachi could cut him no matter what, which is why he was also surprised that Kenpachi was able to actually cut him...even if it was a very tiny and insignificant cut.

-No! ..."I" was not the one who originally stated that Kenpachi wasn't going to be able to cut Nnoitra, it was Nnoitra HIMSELF who said that; go back and read the chapter more carefully.

-Kenpachi was only able to cut him because he had now adapted to Nnoitra's "hardness" as Kenpachi himself very explicitly stated.

-Nnoitra stated that it was a moment of luck because that's the only excuse/explanation that Nnoitra could possibly give as he did not believe that Kenpachi could actually cut him no matter what; Nnoitra outright stated that Kenpachi wasn't going to be able to cut him. Heck it's just as how Byakuya told Ichigo that him being able to point his sword at his throat was only a miracle and that it would not happen again, yet Ichigo proves Byakuya wrong because Ichigo actually had the speed to counter Byakuya. Likewise, Kenpachi had now adapted to Nnoitra's hierro. That's a manga FACT.

-What you're stating does not prove in any way, shape, or form that hierro must be focused or activated. We know for a fact that Kenpachi was able to adapt to Nnoitra's hierro, and since we discovered that Kenpachi was really "capable" of cutting Nnoitra... otherwise he would have never been able to adapt to Nnoitra's hardness and cut him at all. Therefore, it is perfectly believable that Kenpachi getting lucky for a moment could cause Nnoitra a very tiny and insignificant cut. Again, just as Byakuya was in disbelief against Ichigo; Nnoitra believed that Kenpachi was not going to cut him again, thus he said that he only got lucky.

Gran Maestro
January 20, 2011, 08:35 AM
I think Yammy's hierro was 2nd strongest in his 2nd stage. And Zommari was the fastest espada, a boast doesn't make a claim baseless, Nnoitra boasted that he had the strongest hierro and he was right.

I think hierro isn't a conscious ability, Yammy couldn't see what hit him when Yoruichi attacked him but his hierro still hurt her. Hierro is like an invisible steel armor which increases physical resistance to great extent.

But we must keep in mind that having a hierro doesn't mean arrancars can't use their reiatsu to boost their resistance against an attack. For example, shinigami and arrancar often concentrate their reiatsu on their hands to block attacks. In that sense, even with the existence of a hierro, an attack is expected to do more damage if the opponent can't see the attack coming.

Random101
January 22, 2011, 12:44 AM
The data book apparently states that he misread Ichigo's power;
It states the grim reason for his arm getting cut off was underestimating his opponents power. Granted same basic thing overall, but there's a distinction there that's screwing you over.


Yami could have at least gotten his sword out or could have shot a cero maybe etc...
Getting the sword out would mean he would have to be able to react to Ichigo's speed, the giant slow dude. Charging up a cero requires exactly that, charging it, vs Ichigo's speed. Let me reiterate, Yammi is slow. He has amazing attack power, and potentially his intial strike might have actually done something had he gone all out (Then again who knows) but in that situation anything he could have done would have had to have been fast enough for Ichigo not to be able to do something in the intervening time.

You see the issue here right? Cuz let me reiterate it again, Yammi is freaking SLOW. Applying any sort of attack in that situation is not going to help. You say right there that nothing definite can be said about those options (And frankly given no matter what he has to deal with a much faster opponent saving his arm is bloody unlikely with just those to say the least). However by the databook something definite has to be said to have saved him there, which falls down to a grand total of one given a list of feats we currently have. Better Defense.


First of all, IF hierro needed to be activated...how do you even know that Yami then had the time to actually activate it as he was getting beaten hard by Yoruichi?
You mean in the interval of time between her initial strike, him getting up, and her actually going into beatdown mode with far heavier blows he doesn't have time to do anything? Because frankly I'd bloody well call that time to do something.


If focusing higher amounts of reiatsu was really what they needed to do to harden their skin... then higher ranked Espadas would have a significantly harder hierro and/or would be significantly harder to cut than Nnoitra, but that is not the case!
This is irrelevant. We're not arguing reiatsu here remotely, we're arguing however the hell this technique functions. We don't know this. We're given even less to actually go with in regards to this, and most of the feats given are iffy, particularly these.

Where I get the possibility of increasing the power of hierro is bloody simple, I mentioned it right there above. Nnoitra causes a blow that was digging into him to utterly stop the instant he notices it cutting him. Not solid by any means, but if I want to argue it as possible you'd have a damned hard case refuting that with anything remotely solid. Given that, this meshes with information that doesn't otherwise make sense that you are desperately trying to refute to no avail, up to and including this case with Yammi and Nnoitra's statement. This is the simplest, most logical, and least bullshit excuse for most of what we know about hierro. Because it meshes perfectly with the Yammi case, the Nnoitra statement, the scene in question, and the databook in one beautiful equation.


Answer the following:

-Why DID Kubo simply tell us that Ichigo managed to cut through Yami's hierro?

-Why did Kubo NOT tell us that hierro was a conscious ability?

-Why did Kubo NOT tell us that hierro could be focused and hardened more?
Why did Kubo explicitly note, via a character who'd have knowledge of this mind, the possibility for an opponent who otherwise would not be able to cut a person hierro to get a lucky shot in if this does not mesh at all with your assumption?

Why did Kubo not tell us it WAS conscious?

Why did Nnoitra manage to utterly stop Kenpachi from cutting him when he first noticed it in the intial strike and manage to keep his arm from getting cut off?

You're asking these questions on the assumption that you have the facts in your favor. Not only do you actually not, but the lack of clarity on anything regarding heirro makes it just as easy to point similar questions your way, particularly in regards to the conscious one. And further, in my case I have highly more specific feats to pull from to ask in a similar manner. This is why your assumptions don't fly.

And mind of the ones you ask I can actually answer two, to note the existence of the ability in the case of the first one (Seriously that's the first time we ever hear of the existence of heirro, it's called establishing it), and that he actually potentially shows us the last case instead. Just you know, for reference. >>

El Samurai Guapo
January 22, 2011, 09:10 PM
You've neglected to solve the Nnoitra comment issue in any way other than attempting to say it's not applicable with an invalid comparison (Ie: Arguing against a fact), any attempts to solve the Yammi could have done something in that scenario issue are unsatisfactory at best, and the scene in which Nnoitra manages to seemingly increase his hierro's defensive power, while not solid mind, all point completely against the assumption you're trying to make. While a simple halfway point solves all those issues in one go without attempting to BS your way through all three.

Mind I'm not saying any argument either way is solid, I'm saying we're given jack all on hierro in the first place other than it increases your defensive power, but saying yours works is laughable at best.

Let's not be rude, Jackk's points here are certainly not laughable. Don't see what's see why it's so hard to believe that hierro is just the arrancars' steel skin. Nothing remotely suggests it has to be consciously activated, including whatever connection you're trying to make with Nnoitora here. Yeah, I don't see where Nnoitora supposedly hardened his hierro.

Random101
January 22, 2011, 09:24 PM
I'm not arguing conscious, nothing remotely anywhere suggests that either way (Edit: Mostly because we've seen virtually no one anywhere defend against an attack while not in a battle situation to some regard, ie: A situation in which it would be alright to disable Hierro). I'm arguing upping the ante. Similarly the scene in question was the one here: http://www.mangareader.net/94-762-10/bleach/chapter-308.html and the next page.

Kenpachi starts to dig into him, and the second Nnoitra notices it, he jerks his arm into the blade, as in in a direction in which would normally cause the blade to dig in deeper, and the wound isn't made larger or indeed his arm isn't cut off. Mind there are a few ways you could potentially explain what happened there, but all the compounding evidence makes the simplest, and indeed most logical answer being varying heirro strengths depending on some arbitrary factor, possibly focus given Yammi's a bloody moron and that helps much of his stupidity immensely.

Why? Because it solves the Yammi case as mentioned by the databook, this, Nnoitra's comment about it being a lucky shot, the fact that Ichigo can effortlessly cut Yammi when he was much weaker as compared to his Vaizard Bankai State not putting a bloody scratch on Ulquiorra the first time with a point blank Getsuuga on top of his sword slash, and only barely putting a scratch on him in just bankai later, all in one fell swoop with a basic and logical assumption. Any other explanation lacking that facet has to try and rationalize and BS their way through all of that on top of multiple other issues, adding needless and unnecessary complications, especially that one.

El Samurai Guapo
January 22, 2011, 09:55 PM
Kenpachi starts to dig into him, and the second Nnoitra notices it, he jerks his arm into the blade, as in in a direction in which would normally cause the blade to dig in deeper, and the wound isn't made larger or indeed his arm isn't cut off. Mind there are a few ways you could potentially explain what happened there

There sure are. Kenpachi at that point was barely discovering the level of force necessary to get through the dude's hierro (steel skin); he managed to slightly cut into his arm with a downward swing, but of course once the arm stopped the swing the minimum force necessary to cut through his hierro was gone, and Nnoitora could push the blade away without getting cut deeper. Indeed the most logical answer.

igotthegoods
January 22, 2011, 10:08 PM
Guys, please try to keep things a little more civil in here. Disagreeing is fine but insulting each other and each others' arguments is not. Thanks for your attention. :)

Random101
January 22, 2011, 10:42 PM
There sure are. Kenpachi at that point was barely discovering the level of force necessary to get through the dude's hierro (steel skin); he managed to slightly cut into his arm with a downward swing, but of course once the arm stopped the swing the minimum force necessary to cut through his hierro was gone, and Nnoitora could push the blade away without getting cut deeper. Indeed the most logical answer.
Not compounded with all the other stuff on top of it. That's one possible excuse for this one single case, but it doesn't remotely cover all the rest of the questionable scenarios. The most damning of course being Nnoitra claiming it's possible to get a lucky shot in somehow to be able to cut what otherwise shouldn't be able to be. >>

That's certainly a logical answer, no question, one of several I managed to figure based on all the variables and unclarified scenarios involved. The Most Logical however that manages to solve a majority of issues without directly conflicting with virtually anything falls squarely on the increasing strength explanation. You know, since it solves every conflicting case brought up with virtually no complications and forcing you to make a metric crapton of assumptions on top of that, particularly one that forces you to literal negate an outright statement of fact.