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View Full Version : Canon Aikawa Love vs. Coyote Starrk



El Samurai Guapo
June 10, 2010, 06:42 PM
Please read the following description before commenting or voting!

This fight takes place in an alternate universe where, instead of Shunsui interrupting their fight here (http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/373/19/), the battle between Love and Starrk would have continued. Also, disregard Rose's presence. Let's say he was killed by the wolves or something. It was Love that was primarily fighting Starrk anyway. Rose didn't jump in until the wolves attacked him.

The fight begins right after this page: http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-chapter-386-page-18.html
(http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-chapter-386-page-18.html) Starrk tells Love to run and Love responds "screw you".

What happens next?

Does Starrk summon more wolves and send them to destroy Love?

Does Love demonstrate some more shikai techniques, hollow techniques (cero etc.), or use his bankai?

kkck
June 10, 2010, 07:28 PM
I'd think love's most logical move would be to go bankai+mask. Shikai clearly does not cut it against the wolves so I'd think his best move would be to break through the wolves with something really powerful(bankai +mask) and deal some decent damage to starrk. I do think his bankai could do the trick here, although we would have to see exactly what it is. Following bleach logic, it'd probably be a meaner, larger mace with a hell lot more destructive power and range so perhaps it'd be enough to reach starrk.

DEATHBOTT
June 10, 2010, 07:32 PM
Depends on what love's bankai is.

El Samurai Guapo
June 10, 2010, 08:06 PM
I'd think love's most logical move would be to go bankai+mask. Shikai clearly does not cut it against the wolves so I'd think his best move would be to break through the wolves with something really powerful(bankai +mask) and deal some decent damage to starrk. I do think his bankai could do the trick here, although we would have to see exactly what it is. Following bleach logic, it'd probably be a meaner, larger mace with a hell lot more destructive power and range so perhaps it'd be enough to reach starrk.

Well, regarding Starrk's wolves, I think the reason why they weren't used against Shunsui was because they were all spent on Love and Rose. The wolves would reform like flames after being struck by something, but I think that after they bit onto something and detonated they would be destroyed themselves. After the second barrage of wolves exploded on Love and Rose they were nowhere to be seen. I honestly don't believe that Starrk can bring an unlimited amount of wolves out. That would be too hax imo.

Also, notice how Starrk never indicated that he would use the wolves to finish them off. He simply said he was going to give them the finishing blow. In fact, he was up in the air and suddenly came down and landed on that pillar (which is when Shunsui stabbed him), so I don't believe he was planning on using more wolves.

As for Love not hurting Starrk after those two hits he gave him, that could've been because of Starrk's hierro. This was probably the first time Love had ever faced an arrancar, so he had no idea of their hierro. That's not to say that Love could not have adjusted or become accustomed to cutting through their hierro (the way Kenpachi did with Nnoitora). I think Love may have still won without resorting to bankai, and if he did use bankai, I seriously doubt hewould need the mask as well.

DEATHBOTT
June 10, 2010, 08:26 PM
i dont think love could have won without bankai. for one he would of ogt hit twice because half the wolves went after rose. also if starrk fired 1000 cero at him instead of just 2 or 3 love couldnt bat them away so easy.

Eddy01741
June 10, 2010, 10:35 PM
Bankai should make Love 5-10 times more powerful. Also, Starrk himself said that his ceros would be useless against Love.

The only thing Starrk has to contest love is his wolves and his melee skills (IE, breaking out the energy sword like he did vs. Shunsui), so Love with mask+bankai just needs to stop the wolves and have the advantage on a melee starrk.

I personally think he can do it, a captain's bankai is a force to be reckoned with.

Gran Maestro
June 11, 2010, 05:47 AM
Love would definitely need bankai to stand a chance against Stark. I don't think Love could wear his mask again (for some time) because wolves broke it. The result of the fight depends on the effectiveness of Love's bankai against Stark's wolves but since Love was injured and without a mask, I would put my money on Stark's victory.

Xerneas
June 11, 2010, 11:14 AM
I didn't vote for anybody cause we don't have a freaking clue what Love's Ban Kai does. Topics like this don't make any sense. My personal opinion though is that all 4 people Starrk fought are stronger than him. *Kubo saved their Ban Kai's for stronger enemies than that.

EDIT: *Aizen excluded cause he has plot armour. They'll fight against more powerful subordinates most likely.

El Samurai Guapo
June 11, 2010, 01:47 PM
I didn't vote for anybody cause we don't have a freaking clue what Love's Ban Kai does. Topics like this don't make any sense.

How does the topic not make sense? Did you not read the description or something? I asked posters to talk about what they felt would likely occur if Starrk and Love's fight had continued. If you don't want to take Love's bankai into account because it remains unknown, then that's fine, you can say Starrk would win.

The way I saw things, it wasn't until right before Love and Rose were blown up by the wolves that they realized they were so deadly. So really how can someone count Love out, even in shikai? It's not like he even had a chance to launch his own counterattack before Shunsui butted in.
Just because an attack worked once on him doesn't mean it would continue to do so. I think this is true for all the characters of Bleach. I doubt anyone could get away with simply spamming the same attack against a captain level opponent and not have it eventually countered. Moreover, as I said before, I don't think Starrk could summon an unlimited about of those wolves. If you ask me, the reason why he used a sword against Shunsui instead of the wolves was because they were all used up on Love and Rose.


I don't think Love could wear his mask again (for some time) because wolves broke it.

We've learned from Ichigo that the masks can be reapplied or even fixed at any moment. The mask is just the physical manifestation of their hollow powers. I don't think damaging or destroying the mask itself really does much of anything. As long as the shinigami still has enough reiatsu or is not critically injured, they should be able to summon the mask at any moment. As for the injuries Love sustained from the wolves, they were moderate at best.

AlB
June 12, 2010, 01:24 PM
Love was injured and without a mask, I would put my money on Stark's victory.

nothing is more obvious than the most obvious fact that Love was NOT injured. how the hell do a torn clothes (without any damage to flesh, look at his arms) couple of scratches and bruises count as injuries? :s http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/373/18/

Love would simply go bankai and obliterate stark. he would become 10 times stronger and that stupid weapon of his would have become 10 times better, while stark was left without his only cool ability (which failed miserably btw)

kkck
June 12, 2010, 02:30 PM
http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/372/15/
Considering merely his shikai + mask did that much, I'd be quite scared of what his bankai + mask can do at the moment. Surely starrk would have something to fear when concerning love's bankai, even if the guy does not use a mask (all the other captain bankais had it in them to kill espada with their bankai, I don't see why the case would not be the same with love or any other vizard).

El Samurai Guapo
June 12, 2010, 04:35 PM
Maybe one of the 11 people who voted for Starrk could share their thoughts on this topic?

Gran Maestro
June 12, 2010, 04:54 PM
Well, Stark's attack shattered Love's mask and any attack that is strong enough to shatter a vizard mask deals a considerable amount of damage. If Love was not injured at all and if he was able to reapply his mask any moment, it means Love was immune to Stark's wolves which doesn't make sense. If Love didn't have his mask, he would have been critically injured, the mask protected him to some extent, this is why he wasn't incapacitated but it doesn't mean he was in good shape. We know what happened to Ichigo after Ulquiorra's cero oscuras attack which shattered Ichigo's mask (http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/347/02/) and dealed a great amount of damage. Ichigo was injured and Ichigo couldn't reapply his mask. Stark said his wolves were stronger than cero, if Stark's strongest attack is not weaker than cero oscuras, then you can understand the amount of damage that was dealt on Love. If Love's durability is not way better than Ichigo's, it's safe to assume that it would have been very hard for him to come back and win under these circumstances. This is my take on the matter.

And I must say appearance alone may be misleading, we have to have reiatsu-meter to measure the extent of damage, for example have a look at Ulquiorra right before he died (http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/353/20/). Does he look like someone whose internal organs are damaged beyond regeneration? Comparative assessment is always more reliable and saying "Love is not injured" means either Stark's wolves were a joke compared to Ulquiorra's CO or Ichigo's durability was a joke compared to Love's (and Rose's). We know neither is true.

freshseth83
June 14, 2010, 05:58 PM
Starrk can reform his wolves in any manner he wants. When they explode it doesn't mean he doesn't have more wolves. Where was it stated that was the case? Nowhere. In fact it stated that the wolves were apart of his soul. His ability is to split his soul. So the wolves would be able to reform as long as Starrk is alive. No matter what Bankai does Love was spent. He had nothing left. That's why Shunsui came in. Starrk being who he is beat Love and Rose together. He said, here comes the death blow. Meaning it was about to be over before Shunsui saved their asses. It's not hard to figure out when that's exactly what the manga shows and states. Sure Love was mad at the end, but when Shunsui said don't try to act like good kids. Getting caught up in matters of style and losing the battle is for UNDERLINGS. In other words, they lost and they're combined skills weren't nearly enough to defeat Stark, who could split his soul into wolves and guns. Lillynette was apart of him. She was only there as a counterpart to his soul. Once he released, he regained ALL of his soul, or Lillynette. The reason he split his soul in the first place was because of how strong and powerful he was. People here state that Love was unhurt. More like Starrk was unhurt. No marks, no scratches, no torn clothing. If we look at Ichigo as a basis, the torn clothing is an indicator of how much reiatsu is left, or how much strength they have. The ripped clothes, the scratches and bruises on Love and Rose were indicators that only a couple wolves were enough to do significant damage to both of them. Now if we see that Stark said he could fire 1000 ceros, my bet is that he could at least do a fraction of that with wolves. Notice how the wolves were apparent but the guns weren't, http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/372/18-19/ that means Lillynette was again apart of Starrk and the wolves, because obviously she was apart of Starrk from the beginning. But when the guns left, the wolves came- which were from the bandoleers on his back http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/373/01/. In that picture on the link I gave, you can clearly see how many wolves there was. Starrk's ability of the wolves came from the guns, even Love figured it out http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/373/14/, but he thought they were ceros. Which they weren't as Starrk explained, they were apart of his soul- in other words, just like lillynette, even in a page before that, he says, 'let's go Starrk', in other words it was lillynette talking to him as the wolves. Here is where Starrk explains it, that they are both him and Lillynette http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/373/16/. So of course, Love and Rose thinking they were ceros were wrong. If you think that Starrk had a limited amount of Wolves, then that's wrong. We see Starrk can produce wolves at command because they are apart of his soul. So as long as he's still alive, those wolves will be present, if they blow up he can produce more. Because they are rendered from his soul and they are turned into weapons.

Hystzen
June 14, 2010, 06:25 PM
if starrk can keep sending waves of wolves he would have done it against Shunsui but he didnt...there would be a limit as the wolves are his soul so keep using them would kill him in the end.

i think starrk can do 2 waves of wolves if that is the case Love could keep up with starrk by smashing Starrk with shikai and mask will wear starrk down and bankai he needs it...

The fight was no where near over Love was ready for Round 2 and to go all out when shunsui turned up. shunsui was not needed to kill starrk instead kubo used the chance to show shunsuis shikai by interupting the fight and making shunsui Fanboys as bad as like Aizen fanboys

love wins

Xsoteria
June 14, 2010, 06:35 PM
if starrk can keep sending waves of wolves he would have done it against Shunsui but he didnt...there would be a limit as the wolves are his soul so keep using them would kill him in the end.

i think starrk can do 2 waves of wolves if that is the case Love could keep up with starrk by smashing Starrk with shikai and mask will wear starrk down and bankai he needs it...

The fight was no where near over Love was ready for Round 2 and to go all out when shunsui turned up. shunsui was not needed to kill starrk instead kubo used the chance to show shunsuis shikai by interupting the fight and making shunsui Fanboys as bad as like Aizen fanboys

love wins

I think it would be fairly moronic of Starrk to take pieces of his soul and toss them at his enemies. He might as well decapitate himself and throw his head at people to hurt them.

If he was sane, and he seemed to be, he would not use an ability that would weaken him permanently in the middle of a battle he was winning (or thought he was winning).

freshseth83
June 15, 2010, 03:26 AM
People should go back and read the chapters. Starrk can divide his soul, and the wolves he created were apart of him. They didn't weaken him. Apparently dividing your soul was Starrk's specialty, he did with Lillynette as a permanent thing because he killed hollows by just being around them. So his power was abundant. Love had to use mask to even stand a chance against Starrk and it kept fading away. I don't know about you guys, but Love can't keep his mask for long, so to say he can go Bankai and use it is a long shot. If he can do that, How long will his mask last then? Because it didn't last for shit when he was only in Shikai, and the reiatsu involved to keep it, plus use Bankai seems like it's quite a lot. I don't think Love would be able to hold it any longer in Bankai (if he can even do both, which in case no one but Ichigo has shown that ability) than he can with Shikai. We don't know his Bankai, but judging from his club, it aint gonna do much. The club could bat ceros, great, the wolves though were ceros. And they kept reforming until Starrk used them as he wanted. Starrk even explains that he can will them to do whatever he wishes. Since they are apart of him.

There is no Shunsui fanboys, it's just a fact that Shunsui did what two Vizard captains couldn't. Hax ability or not.

Hystzen
June 16, 2010, 12:06 PM
i would like you to show manga proof where it says Starrk can use the wolves as much as he wants.

n love took starrks ulitmate attack would happened..... spat blood n a torn part of his jumper....wow Love reallly lost that fight didnt he :eyeroll

n the whole well unohana says that clothes represents spent resitsu etc etc aint true look at Kenpachi he hardly any clothes but is hacking up the 0 espada who is ment to be better than Starrk.

Love would have beat Starrk without shunsui.

love would have gone bankai after he took starrks wolves attack ;)

goldhat
June 16, 2010, 12:42 PM
i would like you to show manga proof where it says Starrk can use the wolves as much as he wants.

n love took starrks ulitmate attack would happened..... spat blood n a torn part of his jumper....wow Love reallly lost that fight didnt he :eyeroll

n the whole well unohana says that clothes represents spent resitsu etc etc aint true look at Kenpachi he hardly any clothes but is hacking up the 0 espada who is ment to be better than Starrk.

Love would have beat Starrk without shunsui.

love would have gone bankai after he took starrks wolves attack ;)

Why should he though? There wasn't a manga page where it says that he would actually die from splitting souls, now was there?

Starrk stated that splitting his souls was another one of his abilities. It means there would've been a way for him to manage himself from splitting his soul. It was the same for Barragan's "aging" ability. He had an ability which allowed himself to be unaffected from using that ability, until he himself got contact with that very ability of his, because Hacchi transferred his arm over Barragan's torso. :notrust

According to your logic, Ichigo's hollowification+bankai black getsuga tenshou didn't really have much effect as it should have against Grimmjow without one of his arm....so Grimmjow in his unreleased form would have had totally had chances of winning, if say...Ichigo could have kept his mask for a minute, right?...& That was Ichigo's only and strongest attack.... :eyeroll

Unohana actually never said anything though. It was only Ichigo who said that his bankai cloth represents how much reiatsu he has. & That's because that upper cloth was part of Ichigo's bankai. Thus it's only exclusive fact to Ichigo himself.

Kenpachi's beating up 0 espada, pretty badly. True, but his power level goes up, as he gets angrier. So it's too early to say that Kenpachi is stronger than Yammy, yet.

We still dunno what his bankai could do. If his bankai would not have an ability to counter Starrk's pack of wolves, he would've been done in, regardless of him having bankai.

If his bankai could have done well against Starrk's pack of wolves, then good for him. He would've trashed the espada.

But it's too bad we haven't got a chance to see his bankai. So I haven't got a clue as to what the point of this debate would be, when we don't even know both characters' full combat capacity, as of now.

freshseth83
June 16, 2010, 04:50 PM
Like I said, if his Bankai could have won why didn't he use it? It's all apart of the story. Shunsui came in and saved their asses. It's a fact.

Bankai or mask, Love was outclassed. His attacks did no damage to Starrk. You might think Love was ok since he only had some scratches and torn clothing, but that was much more damage than what Starrk had to him. Those club attacks WITH MASK did NO DAMAGE to Starrk. But Shunsui comes in and Stabs him through the back. How is that so? Love is so strong! He could beat Starrk by himself right? That's why his shikai moves WITH A MASK didn't do jack?

He'd lose again, and again if the scenario were to play out. He just doesn't have the power or ability to defeat Starrk.

goldhat
June 16, 2010, 04:55 PM
Like I said, if his Bankai could have won why didn't he use it? It's all apart of the story. Shunsui came in and saved their asses. It's a fact.

Bankai or mask, Love was outclassed. His attacks did no damage to Starrk. You might think Love was ok since he only had some scratches and torn clothing, but that was much more damage than what Starrk had to him. Those club attacks WITH MASK did NO DAMAGE to Starrk. But Shunsui comes in and Stabs him through the back. How is that so? Love is so strong! He could beat Starrk by himself right? That's why his shikai moves WITH A MASK didn't do jack?

He'd lose again, and again if the scenario were to play out. He just doesn't have the power or ability to defeat Starrk.

Your assumption is a little too far off. From what I can remember, his shikai can render his cero useless. :oh

The reason his shikai move, had been dodged by Starrk. Love thought of keep on attacking him, since he seemed too demotivated, but he dodged at the last minute.

What would you say in the future, if his bankai is revealed to have abilities that can overwhelm Starrk's pack of wolves?

We still don't know if he could have won or lost.

Hystzen
June 16, 2010, 05:33 PM
*sigh* Shunsui did not rescuse Love and Love wasent outclassed

if Love was covering in blood and on one knee then he would have been saved...but no he was standing n giving starrk abuse.

"he doesnt have the power or ability to defeat Starrk"

starrk is not as dangerous as Barragans respira if shunsui beat barragan i would be MAJOR IMPRESSED but i think we safely say the most of the captains CAN BEAT STARRK that includes EX CAPTAINS.

DEATHBOTT
June 16, 2010, 05:34 PM
Your assumption is a little too far off. From what I can remember, his shikai can render his cero useless. :oh

The reason his shikai move, had been dodged by Starrk. Love thought of keep on attacking him, since he seemed too demotivated, but he dodged at the last minute.

What would you say in the future, if his bankai is revealed to have abilities that can overwhelm Starrk's pack of wolves?

We still don't know if he could have won or lost.

i agree with this guy, people on both sides of the arguement are getting to ahead of themselves. we dont know what loves bankai could do so saying it is gonna win him the fight or it wont do anything is stupid.
thats the reason i havnt voted yet.

El Samurai Guapo
June 16, 2010, 07:37 PM
Well I guess I'm the only one here that believes Love still had more to offer in shikai. I seriously doubt that one flame technique he used on Starrk is all Tengumaru can do.

I also believe that Starrk used up all the wolves on Love and Rose, which is why they were nowhere to be seen after the second explosion where a few of them stacked together. Without the wolves, I seriously don't see how Starrk could win, and even with them, they weren't so powerful that they could incapacitate Love.

DEATHBOTT
June 16, 2010, 07:43 PM
Well I guess I'm the only one here that believes Love still had more to offer in shikai. I seriously doubt that one flame technique he used on Starrk is all Tengumaru can do.

I also believe that Starrk used up all the wolves on Love and Rose, which is why they were nowhere to be seen after the second explosion where a few of them stacked together. Without the wolves, I seriously don't see how Starrk could win, and even with them, they weren't so powerful that they could incapacitate Love.
love did have to use his mask to reduce the damage much like ichigo did with ulqs cero. if starrk can keep useing wolves then love would need his bankai imo.

El Samurai Guapo
June 16, 2010, 07:44 PM
love did have to use his mask to reduce the damage much like ichigo did with ulqs cero. if starrk can keep useing wolves then love would need his bankai imo.

He only had the mask on the first time. The second time Love and Rose got hit (by a lot more wolves) they weren't wearing the masks.

DEATHBOTT
June 16, 2010, 07:54 PM
He only had the mask on the first time. The second time Love and Rose got hit (by a lot more wolves) they weren't wearing the masks.
true my bad. but the damage would stack so if love cant get away which he was shown haveing difficulty doing and starrk can continue his wolf attacks, which i also think he could do, then love would need bankai imo.

ryanzokuken
June 17, 2010, 03:39 AM
you're mistaking Stark's statements about "giving deathblows" and his assumption that he would actually be able to do so as factual manga statements.

just because he said "i'll let you run" and "here comes the death blow" doesn't mean he could have actually just dealt one at will.

every character says they're going to win and whatnot. plenty of them still lose.

the wolves obviously did minimal damage, so he'd have to spam tonssss of them to cause any serious injuries, let alone death. regular ceros are useless when that club can block them with ease and Love can swing it around as quickly as if it were as light as a fly swatter.

and what do you mean "why bring it up"?
just because it wasn't shown doesn't mean we all just forget it exists. he has one, and whether or not we know what it is, it's possible role in the battle has to be considered if this argument is to have any point or accuracy.

if we're disregarding Love's bankai because we don't see it, then we also throw out the possibility of Stark having any more techniques besides cero shots, cero sword, and wolves, or being able to produce any more wolves, because we see no more.

seems ridiculous, huh?

Stark was the biggest joke of all the espada, but somehow, because he stalemated with Love due to Shunsui interfering, his fanboys call it a win.

El Samurai Guapo
June 17, 2010, 04:52 PM
you're mistaking Stark's statements about "giving deathblows" and his assumption that he would actually be able to do so as factual manga statements.

just because he said "i'll let you run" and "here comes the death blow" doesn't mean he could have actually just dealt one at will.

every character says they're going to win and whatnot. plenty of them still lose.

the wolves obviously did minimal damage, so he'd have to spam tonssss of them to cause any serious injuries, let alone death. regular ceros are useless when that club can block them with ease and Love can swing it around as quickly as if it were as light as a fly swatter.

and what do you mean "why bring it up"?
just because it wasn't shown doesn't mean we all just forget it exists. he has one, and whether or not we know what it is, it's possible role in the battle has to be considered if this argument is to have any point or accuracy.

if we're disregarding Love's bankai because we don't see it, then we also throw out the possibility of Stark having any more techniques besides cero shots, cero sword, and wolves, or being able to produce any more wolves, because we see no more.

seems ridiculous, huh?

Stark was the biggest joke of all the espada, but somehow, because he stalemated with Love due to Shunsui interfering, his fanboys call it a win.

Also, did you notice how when Starrk said he was going to give them the death blow, not only was there not any wolves present, but Starrk suddenly decided to land on the pillar (where shunsui stabbed him). Why did Starrk decide to come down to give them the "death blow" why didn't he just stay where he was in the air and send the (mysteriously invisible) wolves?

My guess is he was about to break out the energy sword against Love and Rose. Why were no wolves seen against Shunsui either? Starrk didn't know anything about iro oni's rules initially. He pulled out the energy sword instead of bringing out more wolves before shunsui even explained anything to him.

kkck
June 17, 2010, 05:01 PM
I don't think the energy sword would have been a vaguely smart move against love, don't think he was going to do that. In close range love has a fast and big weapon, I doubt starrk would have done well in such scenario. He would have been sent flying just like before if he did that IMO. I think starrk was about to repeat the wolve technique at that moment before shunsui attacked him. I think he used the swords instead of the wolves because he needed a quick defense in the short range rather than an inability to use wolves.

El Samurai Guapo
June 17, 2010, 05:25 PM
I don't think the energy sword would have been a vaguely smart move against love, don't think he was going to do that. In close range love has a fast and big weapon, I doubt starrk would have done well in such scenario. He would have been sent flying just like before if he did that IMO. I think starrk was about to repeat the wolve technique at that moment before shunsui attacked him. I think he used the swords instead of the wolves because he needed a quick defense in the short range rather than an inability to use wolves.

Of course it wouldn't have been smart of him to use the energy sword against Love, but I don't think he had a choice since the wolves had already been expended.

Xsoteria
June 17, 2010, 06:31 PM
He didn't exactly appear to be running out of choices, considering he was confident that a killing blow was coming.

The first time I read through this chapter, I thought he was going to pull out another technique. Later on I thought that was Kubo's way of letting us know that not everyone died after they went full out and showed all of their abilities.

kkck
June 17, 2010, 06:38 PM
Of course it wouldn't have been smart of him to use the energy sword against Love, but I don't think he had a choice since the wolves had already been expended.

The impression I got from the manga was that the swords were basically the same thing as the wolves but with different forms. If that is the case then using swords or using wolves should not be different. Considering starrk did not seem exhausted from using the original pack of wolves, I doubt he would have actually been limited in their use at any point during the fight.

Truefan21
June 19, 2010, 01:06 AM
Stark was half assing the fight with love and he still nearly killed them of course he takes this.

DEATHBOTT
June 19, 2010, 02:32 AM
Stark was half assing the fight with love and he still nearly killed them of course he takes this.

when he was RUNNING away from love he was half assing, when he fought back he wasnt. and love had yet to release his bankai.

ryanzokuken
June 19, 2010, 02:06 PM
Stark was half assing the fight with love and he still nearly killed them of course he takes this.

both are pure opinion, and the second one is actually not even founded by any evidence. for the 100th time, Love had some ripped clothes and some burned/abrased skin. add that to the fact that he was standing and ready to continue fighting, and the fact that people in Bleach live through unbelievable wounds and blood loss (Renji vs Byakuya, all of Kenpachi's fights, even Aizen said that Hitsu, Soi Fon, Shunsui, and Shinji should all be fine enough to not even fall unconscious from their injuries when he finished with them) and you should logically get the impression that he was completely fine, comparatively.

Gran Maestro
June 19, 2010, 02:52 PM
for the 100th time, Love had some ripped clothes and some burned/abrased skin. add that to the fact that he was standing and ready to continue fighting, and the fact that people in Bleach live through unbelievable wounds and blood loss (Renji vs Byakuya, all of Kenpachi's fights, even Aizen said that Hitsu, Soi Fon, Shunsui, and Shinji should all be fine enough to not even fall unconscious from their injuries when he finished with them) and you should logically get the impression that he was completely fine, comparatively.

Which one does more damage: Ulquiorra R1's Cero Oscuras or Stark's wolves?

Which one has more endurance? Ichigo with mask or Love without mask?

CO essentially finished Ichigo's fight with Ulquiorra, how on earth can people say that Love was fine after he took the damage from Stark's wolves? Love was NOT fine, if Love was fine, then

a) Stark's strongest technique was inferior to a cero coming from Ulquiorra R1 who says others have much stronger attack. Stark himself said wolves were stronger than cero.

b) Ichigo+mask has less endurance than Love+no mask even after Love took damage from an explosion which broke his mask. Vizard mask is a joke.

People are looking at clothes and bruises to determine the amount of damage. The consequence of saying "Love is fine" is that vizard mask is a joke and Stark is a joke.

Look at Ulquiorra's picture (http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/353/20/) right before he died. Does his vital organs look damaged? No. Then why didn't he regenerate his arm and leg and keep fighting? Because he was actually injured and in a very bad condition.

Love was injured, that much is a fact. If his reiatsu did seem as strong as before, Stark wouldn't have said "here comes the death blow", he sensed they were in trouble. Yes, Love didn't give up, what was he supposed to do? Would anybody have expected Love to run away as Stark suggested? People are jumping to wrong conclusions just because Love didn't give up as if there was another option for Love.

So if we won't argue Stark is a joke and vizard mask is a joke, let's not say Love was in good shape because he was NOT.

Evil3ye
June 19, 2010, 03:01 PM
Depends on what love's bankai is.
This.
I don't see how Love could counter Starrk's with anything he showed in his fight. Then again I'm not sure for how long Starrk could spam his wolfs attack either.

From the damage those explosions cause I'd say he'd need 3-4 more of attacks like this to be done for. With his shikai only Love would definitely lose, since he did not really wounded Starrk either. His bankai might give him an avantage, if it's got a -fitting- ability to counter attack or block the wolfs that is.
However from what we've seen I say Starrk would win this.

ryanzokuken
June 19, 2010, 11:01 PM
Which one does more damage: Ulquiorra R1's Cero Oscuras or Stark's wolves?

Which one has more endurance? Ichigo with mask or Love without mask?

CO essentially finished Ichigo's fight with Ulquiorra, how on earth can people say that Love was fine after he took the damage from Stark's wolves? Love was NOT fine, if Love was fine, then

a) Stark's strongest technique was inferior to a cero coming from Ulquiorra R1 who says others have much stronger attack. Stark himself said wolves were stronger than cero.

b) Ichigo+mask has less endurance than Love+no mask even after Love took damage from an explosion which broke his mask. Vizard mask is a joke.

People are looking at clothes and bruises to determine the amount of damage. The consequence of saying "Love is fine" is that vizard mask is a joke and Stark is a joke.

Look at Ulquiorra's picture (http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/353/20/) right before he died. Does his vital organs look damaged? No. Then why didn't he regenerate his arm and leg and keep fighting? Because he was actually injured and in a very bad condition.

Love was injured, that much is a fact. If his reiatsu did seem as strong as before, Stark wouldn't have said "here comes the death blow", he sensed they were in trouble. Yes, Love didn't give up, what was he supposed to do? Would anybody have expected Love to run away as Stark suggested? People are jumping to wrong conclusions just because Love didn't give up as if there was another option for Love.

So if we won't argue Stark is a joke and vizard mask is a joke, let's not say Love was in good shape because he was NOT.

more opinion. you saying "that much is a fact" does not make it a fact.
i mean, i didn't realize you had x-ray vision and were checking out Love's (apparently) shredded organs, but...my bad, i guess.

we know Ulquiorra's organs were wrecked because we saw him get half of his body blown away and he stated that he can regenerate everything besides vital organs. so when he shows up again and his body has mostly regenerated (his leg was nearly fully returned and his torso was closed up), it should be elementary logic that he's in worse shape than his outer appearance shows us. he told us he couldn't regen organs, so obviously they aren't regenerated and then he died.

Love had no open wounds besides scrapes on his face. and not only was he going to keep going against Stark, but he put in work against Aizen as well. he's still fine here, and so is Rose.

http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/388/19-20/
http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/389/01/

and he's fighting just like he was before here

http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/390/10/
http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/390/17/


Aizen tied him up and sliced him once and then he was done. that cut did real damage and put him out of commission, unlike anything that Stark did.

i'm not saying he didn't even feel the wolves. obviously they roughed him up and did some minor damage. but he had no real injuries. that much should be very obvious.

DEATHBOTT
June 19, 2010, 11:11 PM
Which one does more damage: Ulquiorra R1's Cero Oscuras or Stark's wolves?

Which one has more endurance? Ichigo with mask or Love without mask?

CO essentially finished Ichigo's fight with Ulquiorra, how on earth can people say that Love was fine after he took the damage from Stark's wolves? Love was NOT fine, if Love was fine, then

a) Stark's strongest technique was inferior to a cero coming from Ulquiorra R1 who says others have much stronger attack. Stark himself said wolves were stronger than cero.

b) Ichigo+mask has less endurance than Love+no mask even after Love took damage from an explosion which broke his mask. Vizard mask is a joke.

People are looking at clothes and bruises to determine the amount of damage. The consequence of saying "Love is fine" is that vizard mask is a joke and Stark is a joke.

Look at Ulquiorra's picture (http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/353/20/) right before he died. Does his vital organs look damaged? No. Then why didn't he regenerate his arm and leg and keep fighting? Because he was actually injured and in a very bad condition.

Love was injured, that much is a fact. If his reiatsu did seem as strong as before, Stark wouldn't have said "here comes the death blow", he sensed they were in trouble. Yes, Love didn't give up, what was he supposed to do? Would anybody have expected Love to run away as Stark suggested? People are jumping to wrong conclusions just because Love didn't give up as if there was another option for Love.

So if we won't argue Stark is a joke and vizard mask is a joke, let's not say Love was in good shape because he was NOT.

we saw ulquiorra with half his body missing so of cause his organs were gone. bad analogy.

Gran Maestro
June 20, 2010, 03:00 AM
You didn't get my point, the point is you can't determine the amount of damage on someone by looking at someone's appearance, it may be misleading. Ulquiorra was an example because we knew his vital organs were damaged, we couldn't know the amount of damage if we didn't know what happened before. Another example, Aizen knocked out Urahara (http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/406/13/), Urahara seemed to have no open wounds besides bruises on his body but he was in no condition to fight.

I'll ask these questions once again, you didn't address these points:

Which one does more damage: Ulquiorra R1's Cero Oscuras or Stark's wolves?

Which one has more endurance? Ichigo with mask or Love without mask?

So if you don't argue Ulquiorra R1 is much stronger than Stark and Love (and Rose) without mask is much tougher than Ichigo with mask, how can you say Love had minor injuries? Love's organs were not shredded but the explosion definitely had a toll on Love, you're underestimating the extent of damage making Stark and vizard mask a joke in the process. So if you think you have a point, explain why wolves did minor damage.

kkck
June 20, 2010, 04:12 AM
Personally, I don't think the damage love took was marginal but I also don't think he took nearly as much damage as ichigo did from cero oscuras. Worth noting, love was hit directly by probably dozens of wolves while ichigo was hit by just one cero oscuras, I would think 1 wolf is individually quite weaker than 1 cero oscuras. Of course, it is kinda hard to compare a technique which is just 1 individual attack and another which consists of a lot of continuous hits.

The main reason I would lean towards love here is how extreme bankai is. Hitsugaya can throw chunks of heaven, soifon has an overpowered nuke which exhausts her for several days after one use, komamura's is nothing but a huge mass of power, byakuya gets a ridivulous amount of petals which he can concentrate, ichigo at his best was able to speedblits byakuya and every petal he could throw at him. In love's case, bankai should be just about as extreme except that he has a mask he can use to give even more power to his bankai.

Gran Maestro
June 20, 2010, 04:55 AM
Well, if Love's bankai is strong enough to protect him against the wolves or to make short work of Stark before wolves can reach him, then Love might have defeated Stark. If it was an uninjured Love vs Stark, things might have been different but Love was considerably injured and I don't think he could have reapplied his mask because the wolves broke it. Ichigo couldn't reapply his mask when Ulquiorra's CO broke it, if you are injured and your mask is broken, I don't think you can reuse your mask before recovery. Love and Rose didn't use their masks against Aizen which supports my point. (I know Shinji didn't use his mask too but he didn't attack Aizen directly, he used his shikai ability. Lisa used her hollow mask.)

Anyway, I don't know whether or not people realize it but they're degrading Stark by making his strongest technique a joke. How can somebody say that primera espada's strongest technique was not strong enough to do major damage to someone who had his mask already broken because of an earlier attack when the technique hit him? How is this possible? Saying "wolves did minor damage" is saying "primera espada was a joke" and saying "vizard mask is a joke" because CO did more damage to Ichigo with mask.

Whenever someone comes forward and with utmost confidence says "Love was at most slightly injured", they don't realize they're belittling Stark and his strongest technique, they don't realize they're totally ignoring the role of a vizard mask against damage because Love didn't have his mask when the wolves hit him. CO from Ulquiorra R1 finished Ichigo with mask, so if people will keep implying #1 Stark's attack power was infinitely inferior to #4 Ulquiorra's who himself admitted he opted for regeneration instead of attack power, I don't know what else I can say. Stark's attack power was stronger than Ulquiorra R1's attack power, all of us must be agreeing with that fact.

Eddy01741
June 20, 2010, 06:51 AM
Who here said that Love needs his mask to defeat Stark? Bankai should make Love 5-10 times more powerful.

Yes, we realize we're degrading Stark's strongest technique. The strongest technique of the second strongest of a fodder group doesn't impress me much (let's face it, at this point, espada are fodder). Plus, like pointed out before, Love and Rose weren't like "damn, that attack hit us hard, we can't move now, we've been defeated", before they could do anything, Shunsui just stepped in and took over. Unlike when Aizen defeated them, where they literally were too injured to get up.

Also, you cannot compare attacks of espada #1 and espada #4 and expect all of the attacks from espada#1 to be more powerful. Wolves are far more spammable than cero oscuras, but one wolf>one cero oscuras? That's a hard sell. 10 wolves>one cero oscuras, that's more reasonable, and seeing how Stark made at least like 50 of them, it seems reasonable.

DEATHBOTT
June 20, 2010, 07:05 AM
You didn't get my point, the point is you can't determine the amount of damage on someone by looking at someone's appearance, it may be misleading. Ulquiorra was an example because we knew his vital organs were damaged, we couldn't know the amount of damage if we didn't know what happened before. Another example, Aizen knocked out Urahara (http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/406/13/), Urahara seemed to have no open wounds besides bruises on his body but he was in no condition to fight.

I'll ask these questions once again, you didn't address these points:

Which one does more damage: Ulquiorra R1's Cero Oscuras or Stark's wolves?

Which one has more endurance? Ichigo with mask or Love without mask?

So if you don't argue Ulquiorra R1 is much stronger than Stark and Love (and Rose) without mask is much tougher than Ichigo with mask, how can you say Love had minor injuries? Love's organs were not shredded but the explosion definitely had a toll on Love, you're underestimating the extent of damage making Stark and vizard mask a joke in the process. So if you think you have a point, explain why wolves did minor damage.
urahara is another bad analogy. he was on the ground unconscious so of couse he has been beaten. love was still standing and ready to fight.

Gran Maestro
June 20, 2010, 07:27 AM
Who here said that Love needs his mask to defeat Stark? Bankai should make Love 5-10 times more powerful.

Yes, we realize we're degrading Stark's strongest technique. The strongest technique of the second strongest of a fodder group doesn't impress me much (let's face it, at this point, espada are fodder). Plus, like pointed out before, Love and Rose weren't like "damn, that attack hit us hard, we can't move now, we've been defeated", before they could do anything, Shunsui just stepped in and took over. Unlike when Aizen defeated them, where they literally were too injured to get up.

Also, you cannot compare attacks of espada #1 and espada #4 and expect all of the attacks from espada#1 to be more powerful. Wolves are far more spammable than cero oscuras, but one wolf>one cero oscuras? That's a hard sell. 10 wolves>one cero oscuras, that's more reasonable, and seeing how Stark made at least like 50 of them, it seems reasonable.

I'm comparing Stark with Ulquiorra, so whether espada are fodder or not is irrelevant.

I don't see how wolves are far more spammable, Stark could keep sending wolves, Ulquiorra could keep firing cero oscuras. One wolf may be weaker than one cero oscuras, this is not the point. I don't know and I don't care how many wolves hit Love, the point is people imply one cero oscuras had much more attack power than one complete wolf attack. Wolves attacked Love, exploded and disappeared, this is one complete wolf attack. Stark had to summon more wolves to make a second attack.

People say Love without mask took much less damage against supposedly stronger wolves than Ichigo with mask against supposedly weaker cero oscuras. If wolves couldn't do much damage after completing their attack, it means Stark's strongest technique was inferior to Ulquiorra's cero oscuras. This is not possible, even Stark said his wolves were stronger than ceros, I don't and won't agree with any statement that suggests Ulquiorra R1 was far superior to Stark because he was not.
[hr]

urahara is another bad analogy. he was on the ground unconscious so of couse he has been beaten. love was still standing and ready to fight.

You don't get my point. Again.

Urahara was lying on the ground with bruises but he was unable to fight, he was not in good shape. Therefore we can say that outer appearance is not a very reliable indicator of a person's condition to be able to fight. Love was standing and ready to fight but it doesn't mean he would have put up a good fight because he was not in good shape. Yes, his condition was better than Urahara's but still he was injured.

And I support my argument by comparing Stark with Ulquiorra. Do you say Ulquiorra R1 was much stronger than Stark? If you think so, say it openly. If you don't think so, do explain why Love without mask took minor injuries compared to Ichigo's massive injuries with mask against an opponent with much weaker attack power.

Think deeper. You will understand what I'm talking about. ;)

Eddy01741
June 20, 2010, 08:04 AM
And I'm comparing Love with Stark, so the fodder-ness of espada is relevant.

Stark was sending wave after wave of wolves. Ulquiorra fired one cero in R1, and 2 ceros in R2, and never fired ceros in quick succession. I agree with you that a "complete wolf attack">cero oscuras (at least R1 cero oscuras), but one wolf>one cero oscuras? Very hard sell to me.

Why do you keep going back to your rank based argument? You forget that Love != Ichigo, in terms of strength or durability.


Also, Stark said an individual wolf of his, is stronger than an individual cero of his, not all ceros are created equal. Stark's ceros individually aren't even that strong, Love blocked multiple ceros at once.

Gran Maestro
June 20, 2010, 08:34 AM
And I'm comparing Love with Stark, so the fodder-ness of espada is relevant.

Stark was sending wave after wave of wolves. Ulquiorra fired one cero in R1, and 2 ceros in R2, and never fired ceros in quick succession. I agree with you that a "complete wolf attack">cero oscuras (at least R1 cero oscuras), but one wolf>one cero oscuras? Very hard sell to me.

Why do you keep going back to your rank based argument? You forget that Love != Ichigo, in terms of strength or durability.


Also, Stark said an individual wolf of his, is stronger than an individual cero of his, not all ceros are created equal. Stark's ceros individually aren't even that strong, Love blocked multiple ceros at once.

But by saying "Love had minor injuries", you imply that one complete wolf attack was much inferior to one cero oscuras from Ulquiorra R1. Think about it, can Ichigo with his mask be less durable than Love and Rose without mask? Are vizard masks that useless? Is Ichigo with mask less durable than Rose without mask?

Let's say vizard masks are useless, forget about them. CO ruined Ichigo, the fight was almost over after he took the blast. If one complete wolf attack is stronger than one CO, how come Love and Rose had minor injuries? Even if Ichigo is physically weaker than Love and Rose, I can't believe Love and Rose are so much superior that they can tank a stronger attack than CO and come out unharmed compared to Ichigo who was messed up. This is impossible, Love and Rose were considerably injured, there's no other explanation.

Love blocked the ceros because he has a big zanpakuto, ceros didn't hit him. If a wolf is stronger than a cero, it can deal quite an amount of damage, especially if wolves are in large numbers.

Funny thing is if you read comments about Stark and Ulquiorra, you can see arguments that state Stark exhausted his wolves or Ulquiorra's CO was instantaneous and impossible-to-dodge. Not only people suggest wolves are inferior but they also say it can be used only once compared to Ulquiorra's endless COs, I guess Ulquiorra R1 can curbstomp Stark.

I'm talking a lot about Ulquiorra and mods will probably get angry, I hope I don't get banned. But if I don't compare Stark's wolves with Ulquiorra's CO, I can't provide evidence for my argument that states Love must have been considerably injured. Therefore Love would have lost to Stark because he was at a considerable disadvantage. Even bankai might not have been enough at that point. (Assuming his bankai would have been of use because bankais like Komamura's, Mayuri's or Soifon's would have been useless against Stark)

ryanzokuken
June 20, 2010, 02:13 PM
I'm comparing Stark with Ulquiorra, so whether espada are fodder or not is irrelevant.

I don't see how wolves are far more spammable, Stark could keep sending wolves, Ulquiorra could keep firing cero oscuras. One wolf may be weaker than one cero oscuras, this is not the point. I don't know and I don't care how many wolves hit Love, the point is people imply one cero oscuras had much more attack power than one complete wolf attack. Wolves attacked Love, exploded and disappeared, this is one complete wolf attack. Stark had to summon more wolves to make a second attack.

People say Love without mask took much less damage against supposedly stronger wolves than Ichigo with mask against supposedly weaker cero oscuras. If wolves couldn't do much damage after completing their attack, it means Stark's strongest technique was inferior to Ulquiorra's cero oscuras. This is not possible, even Stark said his wolves were stronger than ceros, I don't and won't agree with any statement that suggests Ulquiorra R1 was far superior to Stark because he was not.
<hr noshade size="1">


You don't get my point. Again.

Urahara was lying on the ground with bruises but he was unable to fight, he was not in good shape. Therefore we can say that outer appearance is not a very reliable indicator of a person's condition to be able to fight. Love was standing and ready to fight but it doesn't mean he would have put up a good fight because he was not in good shape. Yes, his condition was better than Urahara's but still he was injured.

And I support my argument by comparing Stark with Ulquiorra. Do you say Ulquiorra R1 was much stronger than Stark? If you think so, say it openly. If you don't think so, do explain why Love without mask took minor injuries compared to Ichigo's massive injuries with mask against an opponent with much weaker attack power.

Think deeper. You will understand what I'm talking about. ;)

i agree that Stark is above Ulquiorra. i'd even say he's above Ulquiorra R2.

regarding Urahara, again, that's not a good example. regardless of his outer appearance (we could basically only see his face, though, so who knows what his body looks like), we know he was damaged because he's unconscious. Love was not.

like i said, nobody is claiming that Love took the wolves like they were a gentle breeze. but he had no actual injuries and was perfectly fit to continue fighting.

internal bleeding or organ damage or broken bones are all pure speculation when we were shown and told nothing that suggests that he had any of those.

comparisons to Ulquiorra, or any other character or fight, for that matter, are irrelevant. what is relevant are the manga pages that show us THESE characters and THIS fight. whether Stark is stronger than Ulquiorra or Ichigo is stronger than Love or any other reverse direction pairing is true or not, Stark used the wolves on them and they got up relatively unharmed. that's what Kubo wrote, that's what he drew. that's just how it is.

in RPG terms, let's say Love and Rose were at 100% HP before the wolf pack got them.
now, setting aside any possible differences in overall HP and defense (durability/endurance) there may be between Love and Rose, we'll assume they're the same.
personally, i'd say after being hit by the wolves, they went down to about 90% HP, maybe 85% if we're giving the lonely cowboy the benefit of the doubt.

and just as an off topic side note, i think Mayuri and his bankai would do quite nicely against Stark. :p

Stark sucked. he had impressive speed, and he got nailed by Love's shikai attack with pretty much no damage. other than that, i was less impressed with him than any other espada. he was a massive let down.

Gran Maestro
June 20, 2010, 03:01 PM
Any comparison with other characters and fights is totally valid, we analyze manga as a whole and Kubo didn't say Love was okay, this is your interpretation which contradicts other parts of the manga.

You believe an attack which seemed to cause only bruises (Aizen vs Urahara) could be strong enough to do enough damage to knock out an opponent but you don't believe another attack (Stark vs Love) which caused similar bruises was capable of doing major damage.

Yes, we don't have x-ray of Love but by deductive reasoning we can infer that wolves hurt him a lot. Just looking at Love's outer appearance and ignoring everything else is kinda superficial way of thinking and Urahara against Aizen is a very good example that shows how a man with only bruises may indeed be in a bad condition.

In RPG terms, Ichigo with mask has more HP than Love and Rose, Ulquiorra's CO has less attack power than Stark's wolves, therefore if CO is capable of messing up Ichigo who has more HP, Stark's wolves can certainly mess up Love and Rose who has less HP. This is what Stark said but you say "Love didn't give up." Was he supposed to give up? Ichigo didn't give up too and he ended up with a huge hole in his chest. If Love doesn't have super hollow mode, he had better have a super-hax bankai, otherwise he is dead meat.

P.S. Stark is a long-range fighter, I don't know the range of Mayuri's poison but I think Mayuri can't do anything to him unless he can trick Stark into coming close.

El Samurai Guapo
June 20, 2010, 03:56 PM
This is ridiculous. Of course Love has way more vitality than masked Ichigo; he was fighting the freaking the released primera with his shikai. Ichigo would get killed by weakest sealed espada if he tried that shit. Hell, even with his bankai, Ichigo would have probably lost to Nnoitora (he barely beat Grimmjow).

I would also be willing to bet that Ichigo's mask is easier to break than the other vaizards, considering they can hold theirs longer and have had 100 years to train with them.

Xsoteria
June 20, 2010, 04:34 PM
This is ridiculous. Of course Love has way more vitality than masked Ichigo; he was fighting the freaking the released primera with his shikai. Ichigo would get killed by weakest sealed espada if he tried that shit. Hell, even with his bankai, Ichigo would have probably lost to Nnoitora (he barely beat Grimmjow).

I would also be willing to bet that Ichigo's mask is easier to break than the other vaizards, considering they can hold theirs longer and have had 100 years to train with them.

I'm sorry but 400 chapters of Ichigo's monstrous reiatsu being shoved down our throat, begs to differ.

If Rukia wasn't clear enough in saying that reiatsu represents the life force of a shinigami and Ichigo being a reiatsu monster, then Ichigo tanking through all the beating from every opponent in the manga and continuing to shoot Getsugas like he's plugged into something, would be a safe indicator. Ichigo may not be the most skilled guy but the amount of rawness in the guy is undeniable. He's here where he is now thanks to that. That's his hax in fact.

And even if Love was as much of a raw beast as Ichigo, Ichigo's mask makes all the difference. There is no way in hell that Ichigo with mask < Love with no mask.

DEATHBOTT
June 20, 2010, 05:07 PM
I'm sorry but 400 chapters of Ichigo's monstrous reiatsu being shoved down our throat, begs to differ.

If Rukia wasn't clear enough in saying that reiatsu represents the life force of a shinigami and Ichigo being a reiatsu monster, then Ichigo tanking through all the beating from every opponent in the manga and continuing to shoot Getsugas like he's plugged into something, would be a safe indicator. Ichigo may not be the most skilled guy but the amount of rawness in the guy is undeniable. He's here where he is now thanks to that. That's his hax in fact.

And even if Love was as much of a raw beast as Ichigo, Ichigo's mask makes all the difference. There is no way in hell that Ichigo with mask < Love with no mask.
so are you saying ichigo is stronger than most of the captains with his mask? because if he is stronger than love with no mask does that mean he is stronger than byakuya, sanjin, soi fon and toshiro? love is a captain he is atleast as strong as all the current captains without his mask, and they all seem to do alright without masks aswell.

plus the fact that he went on to fight aizan means he was fine.

Xsoteria
June 20, 2010, 05:24 PM
so are you saying ichigo is stronger than most of the captains with his mask? because if he is stronger than love with no mask does that mean he is stronger than byakuya, sanjin, soi fon and toshiro? love is a captain he is atleast as strong as all the current captains without his mask, and they all seem to do alright without masks aswell.

plus the fact that he went on to fight aizan means he was fine.

I'm making the distinction here between strength and durability. Ichigo may not posses the skills and abilities needed to fight as well as most other captains do. But that doesn't mean his immense reiatsu doesn't make him extremely durable. The reason he's alive today, is among other things, that.

To answer your question, I don't really think that masked Ichigo is necessarily stronger in battle than Love or other captains, but I think he is way more durable, which is what is relevant to this thread.

Hystzen
June 20, 2010, 05:30 PM
we are ment to believe that ichigo is stronger than all the captains acording to Kubo the only proof we got is the fact that ichigo is never out of bankai.

a bankai love is much stronger n would prob would smash starrk after...bankai makes you stronger.

Nicholas.Sama
June 20, 2010, 05:31 PM
so are you saying ichigo is stronger than most of the captains with his mask? because if he is stronger than love with no mask does that mean he is stronger than byakuya, sanjin, soi fon and toshiro? love is a captain he is atleast as strong as all the current captains without his mask, and they all seem to do alright without masks aswell.

plus the fact that he went on to fight aizan means he was fine.

To be fair, the current generation of captain's has been described as "special".

Kenpachi killed the previous Kenpachi in one swing.
Byakuya is the strongest captain of squad 6, ever.
Soifon was hand picked by Yoruichi because of her potential
Hitsugaya is a genius
Gin is a genius
Tousen is Hax
Mayuri is hax
and the rest are veterans.

Komamura... I personally think he sucks.

Also, Aizen made Love and Rose look more pathetic than anyone else he pwned.

Must Ulquiorra be brought up, bashed, and praised in every Starrk discussion?

Gran Maestro
June 20, 2010, 05:36 PM
plus the fact that he went on to fight aizan means he was fine.

Was Komamura fine too? ;)

http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/386/13/

I agree with Xsoteria, there is no way in hell that Ichigo with mask is less durable than Love and Rose without mask. Ichigo may not be strong enough to defeat Love but it doesn't mean he isn't extremely durable. Durability is proportional to reiatsu and Ichigo has immense reiatsu.

En Yang Ji
June 20, 2010, 05:54 PM
Ichigo would be more durable than Love if he had more control of his reiastu. Ichigo lack of control means Love could be more durable, even without the mask.

kkck
June 20, 2010, 07:43 PM
Was Komamura fine too? ;)

http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/386/13/

I agree with Xsoteria, there is no way in hell that Ichigo with mask is less durable than Love and Rose without mask. Ichigo may not be strong enough to defeat Love but it doesn't mean he isn't extremely durable. Durability is proportional to reiatsu and Ichigo has immense reiatsu.

I think it is plausible although impossible to prove. Ichigo has shown he needs at least bankai to hold his ground in terms of speed and strength against a sealed espada.... Love got a few clean hits on starrk and if I do recall shinji was able to hold his ground without much trouble against sealed armless grimmjow and actually trashed him with just mask while bankai ichigo could not even scratch armless grimmjow. Ichigo with bankai was also barely capable of holding his ground against ulquiorra and with mask he also was trashed by resurreccion ulquiorra. Love took a beating from the wolves after having his mask broken(that is damage on a double count, from getting his mask forcefully broken and the actual damage received from wolves) and still seemed pretty much capable of fighting so I don't really think there really is that much of a difference between masked ichigo and a maskless captain without releasing his sword. All in all, ichigo's reiatsu is supposed to be far above that of a captain, yet the power he has shown is less than vastly unremarkable. Ichigo has grown through the last arc (after being apparently severely depowered) but as it stands it seems he would need either bankai or mask to fight at the basic captain level.

Xsoteria
June 21, 2010, 01:50 AM
I think that maybe his battle capabilities are being confused with his durability. As I already said, he is hardly the fighter he should be if his reiatsu were the only factor. The fact that he got beat up on more than one occasion where others with perhaps smaller reiatsu would prevail only goes to show that he cannot manage his power properly. That however, does not change the fact that reiatsu is his life force, and he has plenty of that.

Again, I'm not arguing he is stronger than Love, just that his body is capable of taking much more of a beating.

Gran Maestro
June 21, 2010, 04:05 AM
I think it is plausible although impossible to prove. Ichigo has shown he needs at least bankai to hold his ground in terms of speed and strength against a sealed espada.... Love got a few clean hits on starrk and if I do recall shinji was able to hold his ground without much trouble against sealed armless grimmjow and actually trashed him with just mask while bankai ichigo could not even scratch armless grimmjow. Ichigo with bankai was also barely capable of holding his ground against ulquiorra and with mask he also was trashed by resurreccion ulquiorra. Love took a beating from the wolves after having his mask broken(that is damage on a double count, from getting his mask forcefully broken and the actual damage received from wolves) and still seemed pretty much capable of fighting so I don't really think there really is that much of a difference between masked ichigo and a maskless captain without releasing his sword. All in all, ichigo's reiatsu is supposed to be far above that of a captain, yet the power he has shown is less than vastly unremarkable. Ichigo has grown through the last arc (after being apparently severely depowered) but as it stands it seems he would need either bankai or mask to fight at the basic captain level.

Guys, you all are mistaking durability for strength. I'll explain the difference here (http://mangahelpers.com/forum/showthread.php?p=1956281#post1956281). If we keep doing this in this thread, mods will lock it.

Love and Rose were considerably injured, Stark concluded the wolves could kill them, Love would have died in the second wolf attack. We know that Stark could sense their reiatsu and see whether or not they were in trouble and we also know that Stark was an intelligent, analytical, reasonable person who didn't overestimate himself at any point in manga.

Love's refusal to give up merely suggests he was too proud to run away like every other person on the battlefield. Love didn't run away, nobody would run away (except Omaeda :p), plain and simple.

Rainl
June 21, 2010, 08:18 AM
Before I even get to Love's potential bankai, you're first going to have to convince me how Love is going to defend against Starrk's speed. Considering he was only capable of tagging Starrk due to him nearly giving up and slowing down, but as I recall, once he gained his will to fight again Love couldn't even keep up enough to sense where he was, even through reaitsu-sensing.

Rose had to point out he was above him. Just a little something I think we should address.

kkck
June 21, 2010, 08:45 AM
Starrk hid his presence and had a cloud of dust to cover him though. I don't think it is that massive an accomplishment to sonido behind them undr those circumstances, he just had to conveniently move through the dust to their blindspot and then move up.

ryanzokuken
June 21, 2010, 02:57 PM
Guys, you all are mistaking durability for strength. I'll explain the difference here (http://mangahelpers.com/forum/showthread.php?p=1956281#post1956281). If we keep doing this in this thread, mods will lock it.

Love and Rose were considerably injured, Stark concluded the wolves could kill them, Love would have died in the second wolf attack. We know that Stark could sense their reiatsu and see whether or not they were in trouble and we also know that Stark was an intelligent, analytical, reasonable person who didn't overestimate himself at any point in manga.

Love's refusal to give up merely suggests he was too proud to run away like every other person on the battlefield. Love didn't run away, nobody would run away (except Omaeda :p), plain and simple.

whaaaaat?

seriously, now it's just starting to get ridiculous how you post up pure, absolute speculation and your own opinion as if they are in any way supported facts.

"considerably" injured seems like a stretch. i'd say "minimally damaged", myself. they were hurt and roughed up, but neither of them was injured at all, as in, they had no actual injuries. no serious areas of harm done to their body that would hinder or impair their movement, health, or ability to fight.
when an invisible injury occurs, we are told about it. Soi Fon's arm after Barragan touched her shoulder, for instance.
they had no broken bones, and it's reaaaalllyyyy time to hang up that organ damage silliness.

and wtf? a second wolf attack would have killed them? assuming they were going to just stand there and take the wolves without defense, i'd say it would still take at least 3 more to put them in critical, life threatening condition. are you aware of what people go through and survive in Bleach?

maybe it's just me, but i really just can't wrap my mind around how this wolf attack is considered so formidable or so damaging. but no, it isn't just me. it's just you. there's probably a good reason why majority of readers see it as i do. because that's what there was to see. you seem to be stretching things for your argument because you either like Stark or dislike Love?

Xsoteria
June 21, 2010, 03:38 PM
He concluded that a full out Espada #1 most powerful attack wields more damage than Cero Obscuras, Espada #4 second most powerful attack in his not completely released form. The later obliterating Ichigo in his tanking mode while the other did "minimal damage" on Love with no mask. That's really a stretch of imagination there.

The only explanation I could come up with would be that not all the wolves struck Love, but either way, if they did the next time, as they probably would in a 1 v 1 fight, it would most likely be nap time for Love.

Is there anything else confusing you?

Gran Maestro
June 21, 2010, 03:58 PM
maybe it's just me, but i really just can't wrap my mind around how this wolf attack is considered so formidable or so damaging. but no, it isn't just me. it's just you. there's probably a good reason why majority of readers see it as i do. because that's what there was to see. you seem to be stretching things for your argument because you either like Stark or dislike Love?

This wolf attack is formidable because it's the strongest attack of primera espada, freaking primera espada. I don't understand why you fail to understand primera espada was powerful, Kubo designated Stark as primera espada, a simple logical deduction can help you understand why these wolves were deadly.

And what makes you think it's just me, as you can see there are 23 persons who think Stark would have won and 11 persons who think Love would have won. Stark said "here comes the death blow", how do you think Stark would have delivered the death blow, by using respira? Of course the wolves were deadly, this is not rocket science, use simple logic.

And the root of most problems in discussions is "I like character A, he wins. No, I like character B, he wins." Most people give me the impression that they're here to promote their favourite characters, perhaps even I do that to some extent but I always try not to. My liking or disliking of either character is irrelevant, I'm trying to make some sense out of manga and common sense says primera espada was not a weakling. If you're okay with this concept, go ahead but don't expect me to agree.

El Samurai Guapo
June 21, 2010, 05:22 PM
This wolf attack is formidable because it's the strongest attack of primera espada, freaking primera espada. I don't understand why you fail to understand primera espada was powerful, Kubo designated Stark as primera espada, a simple logical deduction can help you understand why these wolves were deadly.

And what makes you think it's just me, as you can see there are 23 persons who think Stark would have won and 11 persons who think Love would have won. Stark said "here comes the death blow", how do you think Stark would have delivered the death blow, by using respira? Of course the wolves were deadly, this is not rocket science, use simple logic.

And the root of most problems in discussions is "I like character A, he wins. No, I like character B, he wins." Most people give me the impression that they're here to promote their favourite characters, perhaps even I do that to some extent but I always try not to. My liking or disliking of either character is irrelevant, I'm trying to make some sense out of manga and common sense says primera espada was not a weakling. If you're okay with this concept, go ahead but don't expect me to agree.

It's true, common sense says that the primera is not a weakling, but I don't think that losing to someone like Love would make the primera a weakling. Love has to be one the strongest characters in bleach. I don't buy the notion that the current gotei 13 captains are superior to the former ones. Love is every bit as powerful as the Gotei 13 captains, and then some (because of the mask).

One person who we do know for a fact is a weakling is Ichigo. I really couldn't care less what has been said about his reiatsu, his performances have been terrible. I consider bankai + mask Ichigo weaker than any captain or former captain, so Love is obviously no exception.

Cero oscuras is a weaker attack than the wolves, I agree with you there. Perhaps not a single wolf, but I'd say three or more wolves would be deadlier attack than CO. Since this is the case, there's no way that Love and Ichigo have the same level of durability. What happened when Ichigo was hit with the second oscuras? He was killed (and then later resurrected). So how is it that Ichigo was killed by an inferior attack if he has the same level of vitality as Love? Because he was hit at point blank range? Well, so were Love & Rose. The wolves literally latched onto them with their jaws and then exploded. If Love and Rose are as weak as Ichigo that should have at least blown off their legs or something, right? Unless you want to argue that CO is stronger than the wolves, that is.

Gran Maestro
June 21, 2010, 06:06 PM
If Kubo thinks Love could make a comeback and defeat Stark, he must be kidding us. I mean if I were the mangaka, I would have never put Love and Rose in such a position and made Stark talk as if Love and Rose were about to die and then let somebody else intervene before Love or Rose could prove Stark wrong. If this is what Kubo really meant, he absolutely has no idea what he's doing.

We really have no idea how Love compares to current captains. For example Byakuya was praised to be the strongest captain (in history) of the biggest of four noble families but Kubo didn't give enough credit to vizards (other than their masks) to let us make a reliable comparison. If Byakuya is extremely talented compared to Love, even Love's mask may not be enough to defeat Byakuya but if Love was as talented as Byakuya as a shinigami, he might curbstomp Byakuya with mask.

If you think vizards are the best, perhaps you should be patient and follow a wait-and-see policy until Kubo decides to show vizards are indeed the best because Kubo didn't do them justice up to this moment.

Ichigo was half-dead when second CO hit him, he was already done for. Of course he wasn't as durable as Love and Rose in this state because he had been beaten up. As you keep getting damage your durability decreases and your body gives up at one point. I was comparing fresh Ichigo with fresh Love and Rose.

DARK
June 21, 2010, 08:07 PM
So instead of straight-out predicting a winner out of this fight, you're asking us to create an entire what-if scenario?
My guess: Starrk attacking with wolves, Love (maybe) using his Vizard mask and blowing out a Cero and/or using his shikai abilities. I simply can't see Kubo pushing a Vizard to the brink of using Bankai this soon. Kensei was an exception, and only because it was part of his unique characterization to fight with everything he has at the start of a battle.
Also, the grey areas of Love's abilities is difficult to pick out a winner of the two, much less create a scenario of their fight.

thornofcarrion
June 22, 2010, 12:19 AM
My brief opinion is, Love should win. Love may not have been a top tier captain, nevertheless he was a former Captain of the 7th Division. And he also posses hollow powers. Stark lost to shikai Shunsui. Captain with mask should able to take down Stark. Even if he is a mid-tier captain, bankai plus mask should be enough to defeat Stark.

Evil3ye
June 22, 2010, 12:43 PM
My brief opinion is, Love should win. Love may not have been a top tier captain, nevertheless he was a former Captain of the 7th Division. And he also posses hollow powers. Stark lost to shikai Shunsui. Captain with mask should able to take down Stark. Even if he is a mid-tier captain, bankai plus mask should be enough to defeat Stark.
How do you know Love's bankai plus mask would be enough while not knowing what his bankai even is. His mask lasts only for three minutes, he said it himself. So no hollow powers from then. Also, to judge by his shikai his bankai is most likely strength based, and doubtable if it'd even work on Starrk.

kkck
June 22, 2010, 12:54 PM
How do you know Love's bankai plus mask would be enough while not knowing what his bankai even is. His mask lasts only for three minutes, he said it himself. So no hollow powers from then. Also, to judge by his shikai his bankai is most likely strength based, and doubtable if it'd even work on Starrk.

Bankai in general comes along with a drastic increase in power and range to a great extent though (at the very least the increase in power causes an increase in area of effect and by extention range in most if not all cases so far). I don't think love would be the exception to that at this point. Also, wasn't the whole 3 minute thing just a reference to some other series (and by extention not a hard fact)? Not to mention love did not use his mask for nearly 3 minutes. I would think love resting his mask during the fight would also help his case if his mask was that limited (at least kensei implied resting their masks helps a lot to mashiro).

Evil3ye
June 22, 2010, 01:49 PM
Bankai in general comes along with a drastic increase in power and range to a great extent though (at the very least the increase in power causes an increase in area of effect and by extention range in most if not all cases so far). I don't think love would be the exception to that at this point. Also, wasn't the whole 3 minute thing just a reference to some other series (and by extention not a hard fact)? Not to mention love did not use his mask for nearly 3 minutes. I would think love resting his mask during the fight would also help his case if his mask was that limited (at least kensei implied resting their masks helps a lot to mashiro).
What?

You must be reading your mangas with a stop watch, or else I must have missed it when nobody confirmed it..
As for Kensei, from what I've got he rather said that it depends on how strong the enemy is (Ju-Ni scan (http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/376/10/)).

You are right that any bankai release gives the user an increase in power and probably range/speed of attacks. But as shown in Barragan's and Harribel's fight, if the ability doesn't give you an huge advantage over the Espada's abilities, it might not be enough to win the fight solo with it. Even if we say his limit is not over yet when he uses it, it's doubtable, unless it has got an if-you-lose-you-die ability or such a like.

thornofcarrion
June 22, 2010, 01:59 PM
How do you know Love's bankai plus mask would be enough while not knowing what his bankai even is. His mask lasts only for three minutes, he said it himself. So no hollow powers from then. Also, to judge by his shikai his bankai is most likely strength based, and doubtable if it'd even work on Starrk.

How do you know they wont be enough? These are hypothetical fights. Bankai increases one's strength to many folds. Put mask and you get more strength. Its not necessary to know his bankai, we can assume it will be more powerful than his shikai. And Stark lost to a shikai. Even if Love is not as powerful as Shunsui, he can still defeat Stark in my opinion. From what I understand, 3 minutes does not mean he can use it only once for 3 minutes. 3 minutes could be the maximum length he can wear the mask in one go. 3 minutes is a long time, if Love becomes exponentially stronger than Stark.

Evil3ye
June 22, 2010, 02:05 PM
Starrk lost to Shunsui shikai's ability, not to the power boobst it gave him. That actually was excatly what I was saying about Love's bankai.

kkck
June 22, 2010, 02:05 PM
What?

You must be reading your mangas with a stop watch, or else I must have missed it when nobody confirmed it..
As for Kensei, from what I've got he rather said that it depends on how strong the enemy is (Ju-Ni scan (http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/376/10/)).

You are right that any bankai release gives the user an increase in power and probably range/speed of attacks. But as shown in Barragan's and Harribel's fight, if the ability doesn't give you an huge advantage over the Espada's abilities, it might not be enough to win the fight solo with it. Even if we say his limit is not over yet when he uses it, it's doubtable, unless it has got an if-you-lose-you-die ability or such a like.

Loved used the mask twice in the fight, to get that hit on starrk (the one that grounded a good portion of the city) and to fight the wolves (in which case he removed it shortly afterwards). I don't see how that can add up to 3 minutes.

Evil3ye
June 22, 2010, 02:14 PM
Uhm dunno. He was fighting the gillians with mask on before even facing Starrk.

kkck
June 22, 2010, 02:26 PM
The gillians were enemies against whom he'd normally win even without a mask though, I doubt using the mask against them was either significantly time consuming or wore him out.

Xsoteria
June 22, 2010, 02:29 PM
How do you know they wont be enough? These are hypothetical fights. Bankai increases one's strength to many folds. Put mask and you get more strength. Its not necessary to know his bankai, we can assume it will be more powerful than his shikai. And Stark lost to a shikai. Even if Love is not as powerful as Shunsui, he can still defeat Stark in my opinion. From what I understand, 3 minutes does not mean he can use it only once for 3 minutes. 3 minutes could be the maximum length he can wear the mask in one go. 3 minutes is a long time, if Love becomes exponentially stronger than Stark.

Exponentially stronger? He couldn't put a dent on Starrk. Bankai is a power up, but I don't think it's such a huge power gap between shikai and bankai. Lets analyse a few. Byakuya - no increase in strength or speed, just greater AoE. Soi Fon - increase in destructive power, decrease in mobility and accuracy. Gin - increased speed and range of his ability, no increase in his strength or speed. Komamura - perhaps greater offensive power since the giant can continuously attack as opposed to him summoning his arm all the time, although he presents a hugeass target for anyone with a range attack so I would say decrease in survivability. Hitsu - slight increase in physical attributes and a relative upgrade for his shikai.

All in all, not nearly as impressive enough for me to think that once Love gets his bankai he will be able to wtfpwn Starrk. If it doesn't give him a physicality upgrade like Hitsu's bankai does, he would need some serious hax to inflict some damage on Starrk. In my opinion, as average bankai goes, Love would need it along with mask to successfully fight Starrk.

Saying that Starrk lost to a shikai so that it is only normal that bankai would pwn him would be relevant if it was applicable to anyone else of the captains. Shunsui had hax shikai and used ambushes and the fact that Starrk was distracted. It could have just as well been Soi Fon with her instant kill shikai (note that her bankai wouldn't do jack shit unless she caught Starrk sleeping or something), but it couldn't have been any other shikai that doesn't have instant kill or hax + distraction. It was the best shikai shown so far and in combination with distraction and jumping out of shadows (I mean seriously). Love's shikai is pretty straight forward and unless it's some drastic change in applicability like with Soi Fon's (only for the better), his chance would be slim at best.

Eddy01741
June 22, 2010, 02:29 PM
Gillians (and superchunky altogether) were a dumb ploy to give Kubo the opportunity to show us the vizards' masks to get us all excited. No more.

Mass unseated G13 shinigami are supposed to be enough to take down a gilllian. Any one of the former captain vizards would probably be able to defeat a gillian with their bare hands (if they couldn't, they don't deserve the title of captain).

EDIT: And to xsoteria, who ninja'd me by posting seconds before me so I couldn't reply:

Nobody is saying that Love could definitively beat Starrk without a doubt. We're just saying that it's likely. Bankai is a force to be reckoned with.

Also, Byakuya's bankai=powerboost in senkei or shuukei. Gin's bankai is a powerboost in that Kinetic Energy=mass*velocity^2. More velocity=more kinetic energy.

Evil3ye
June 22, 2010, 02:40 PM
Huh? So what if gillians were just fodder. It does not change the fact that Love had it on while fighting them. He did take it off again to not exhaust the limit and be able to reapply it while fighting when needed.

kkck
June 22, 2010, 02:43 PM
Exponentially stronger? He couldn't put a dent on Starrk. Bankai is a power up, but I don't think it's such a huge power gap between shikai and bankai. Lets analyse a few. Byakuya - no increase in strength or speed, just greater AoE. Soi Fon - increase in destructive power, decrease in mobility and accuracy. Gin - increased speed and range of his ability, no increase in his strength or speed. Komamura - perhaps greater offensive power since the giant can continuously attack as opposed to him summoning his arm all the time, although he presents a hugeass target for anyone with a range attack so I would say decrease in survivability. Hitsu - slight increase in physical attributes and a relative upgrade for his shikai.

All in all, not nearly as impressive enough for me to think that once Love gets his bankai he will be able to wtfpwn Starrk. If it doesn't give him a physicality upgrade like Hitsu's bankai does, he would need some serious hax to inflict some damage on Starrk. In my opinion, as average bankai goes, Love would need it along with mask to successfully fight Starrk.

Saying that Starrk lost to a shikai so that it is only normal that bankai would pwn him would be relevant if it was applicable to anyone else of the captains. Shunsui had hax shikai and used ambushes and the fact that Starrk was distracted. It could have just as well been Soi Fon with her instant kill shikai (note that her bankai wouldn't do jack shit unless she caught Starrk sleeping or something), but it couldn't have been any other shikai that doesn't have instant kill or hax + distraction. It was the best shikai shown so far and in combination with distraction and jumping out of shadows (I mean seriously). Love's shikai is pretty straight forward and unless it's some drastic change in applicability like with Soi Fon's (only for the better), his chance would be slim at best.

It depends on the ability of the bankai.... For instance, I don't think the strength of komamura'shikai (say, a punch or a swordslash) would be nearly enough to match up to the strength his bankai can use when slashing or punching.

Hitsugaya does not get any form of physical upgrade from bankai, at most he gets an armor which has not shown to be that wonderful either. Hitsugaya's bankai almost exclusively increases his control over water, that's it. Bankai usually just gives the user extreme abilities. In this case, a extreme version of loves bankai would be something of which starrk would have to watch out. Mask would make it even more dangerous.

Xsoteria
June 22, 2010, 02:49 PM
Nobody is saying that Love could definitively beat Starrk without a doubt. We're just saying that it's likely. Bankai is a force to be reckoned with.

Also, Byakuya's bankai=powerboost in senkei or shuukei. Gin's bankai is a powerboost in that Kinetic Energy=mass*velocity^2. More velocity=more kinetic energy.

I didn't say bankai was crap, but people seemed so stuck with that "5-10 times stronger!", and nowhere did we see such huge change in battle capabilities that would incline me to think that after going bankai, Love would have the upper hand.

As for Byakuya and Gin, I believe I said Gin got his shikai's speed and range increased - that should cover the law of physics that go with it. Byakuya doesn't get any power boost in his bankai, he can simply slow his opponent slightly while in senkei.

kkck
June 22, 2010, 02:55 PM
I didn't say bankai was crap, but people seemed so stuck with that "5-10 times stronger!", and nowhere did we see such huge change in battle capabilities that would incline me to think that after going bankai, Love would have the upper hand.

As for Byakuya and Gin, I believe I said Gin got his shikai's speed and range increased - that should cover the law of physics that go with it. Byakuya doesn't get any power boost in his bankai, he can simply slow his opponent slightly while in senkei.

Well, in SS arc byakuya was fighting shikai ichigo on even grounds but when he released his bankai shikai ichigo was taken down like fodder. When ikkaku fought released edorad he was easily taken down but once he used bankai he outmatched him even if just a little. Hisagi was having trouble against finder but once he released his shikai findor lasted for 3 seconds or so(so even shikai makes a huge difference)....

Byakuya does not get a physical boost from bankai but senkei does giving him what he called an explosive increase in attack power. Senkei does not slow down enemies at all though, that was a horrible mistranslation in the onemanga scan. What actually slowed down ichigo was his own bankai which was hurting his body along with the exhaustion from previous fights.

Xsoteria
June 22, 2010, 03:24 PM
Ichigo was not taken down like fodder. He was at his throat before Byakuya could react, the fight could have ended there if this wasn't a shounen. He later defeated all of the swarming blades. Only later did Byakuya gained the upper hand, and if what you say is true, it's not even due to his bankai but Ichigo's body failing. Although I think I've seen the explanation behind senkei in the anime, but I could be wrong.

Besides going off topic, this changes very little and doesn't illustrate the bankai transformation any greater than it really is, which in this case isn't enough, in my opinion. That is why I said that Love would need his mask and bankai to hope to win this fight, and even then I would place my bets on Starrk. Although I could be proven wrong later in the manga, based on stuff shown so far - it's not likely.

El Samurai Guapo
June 22, 2010, 03:40 PM
We really have no idea how Love compares to current captains. For example Byakuya was praised to be the strongest captain (in history) of the biggest of four noble families but Kubo didn't give enough credit to vizards (other than their masks) to let us make a reliable comparison. If Byakuya is extremely talented compared to Love, even Love's mask may not be enough to defeat Byakuya but if Love was as talented as Byakuya as a shinigami, he might curbstomp Byakuya with mask.


So? Byakuya's praise is totally arbitrary. Just cause he's the strongest of the Kuchiki doesn't really mean much. I could be the strongest member of my family, but that wouldn't be enough for me to consider myself strong overall, would it? How many of the Kuchiki's even become shinigami?


If you think vizards are the best, perhaps you should be patient and follow a wait-and-see policy until Kubo decides to show vizards are indeed the best because Kubo didn't do them justice up to this moment.

Well, I don't think the vaizards are the best, nor have I ever claimed that they are. I think they're a stronger group than the gotei 13, that's about it. Aizen and Gin are the best.


Ichigo was half-dead when second CO hit him, he was already done for. Of course he wasn't as durable as Love and Rose in this state because he had been beaten up. As you keep getting damage your durability decreases and your body gives up at one point. I was comparing fresh Ichigo with fresh Love and Rose.

Ichigo was half-dead after the first CO hit him. After that Ulquiorra was just toying around with him trying to see if he would give up.

Ok, then let's compare the damage Ichigo took from the first CO vs. the damage Love and Rose took from the first volley of wolves (while they had their masks on). Who came off worse? Even though the wolves are more powerful than CO, Ichigo came off much worse than Love an Rose did from their respective attacks. Are you going to still try and deny that Ichigo is weaker and less durable than Love?

kkck
June 22, 2010, 03:43 PM
Ichigo was not taken down like fodder. He was at his throat before Byakuya could react, the fight could have ended there if this wasn't a shounen. He later defeated all of the swarming blades. Only later did Byakuya gained the upper hand, and if what you say is true, it's not even due to his bankai but Ichigo's body failing. Although I think I've seen the explanation behind senkei in the anime, but I could be wrong.

Besides going off topic, this changes very little and doesn't illustrate the bankai transformation any greater than it really is, which in this case isn't enough, in my opinion. That is why I said that Love would need his mask and bankai to hope to win this fight, and even then I would place my bets on Starrk. Although I could be proven wrong later in the manga, based on stuff shown so far - it's not likely.

I meant before that, when byakuya released bankai and ichigo was still in bankai. byakuya's shikai could not block GT and byakuya had roughly the same physical capacities as ichigo, yet bankai grossly outclassed shikai ichigo and easily blocked ichigo's GT.

I don't think it is offtopic (unless we completely stop discussing love vs starrk), I am merely pointing out how huge the difference bankai provides is. It lacks an increase in physical capacities for the most part but the actualy techniques it provides are overly extreme. To some extent, the actual abilities provided by bankai are even more extreme than those provided by resurreccion IMO.

En Yang Ji
June 22, 2010, 03:55 PM
Bankai does more than give the user another strong ability. It's implied that bankai increases spiritual pressure:

http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/162/08/, http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/156/08/

For that reason bankai would allow for Love to take more damage and deal more damage.

Stevenh1990
June 22, 2010, 04:01 PM
Love is not going to win if his bankai is only going to increase his attack power , Becuase no matter how much destructive power Love get it will be useless if he can't hit starrk who is way faster than him .

kkck
June 22, 2010, 04:06 PM
Bankai does more than give the user another strong ability. It's implied that bankai increases spiritual pressure:

http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/162/08/, http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/156/08/

For that reason bankai would allow for Love to take more damage and deal more damage.

Reaitsu means spirit pressure, basically it refers to the concentration of spirit energy. It should not be confused with spirit energy. In that sense, the amount of spirit energy would remain the same after releasing bankai but in turn the amount of energy used by bankai would increase (which could come along with an increase in the concentration of spirit energy). This is a very murky topic since the language barrier can cause confusion.
[hr]

Love is not going to win if his bankai is only going to increase his attack power , Becuase no matter how much destructive power Love get it will be useless if he can't hit starrk who is way faster than him .

Well, if love's bankai follows the regular pattern bankai regularly follows then it stands to reason his bankai would be an even larger mace with a few extra abilities. A larger mace with a dramatic increase in power and by extention area of effect would work well in this battle specially with mask increasing loves reaitsu and physical capacities. Seriously, mask should increase the damage actually done by his attack by increasing loves reiatsu and the physical boost it gives means love can move faster with it and swing it with more strength. Of course this much is my own speculation, not saying these are hard facts.

ryanzokuken
June 22, 2010, 04:21 PM
pretty sure it was said somewhere (i could be wrong, and i can't be bothered to look for it right now) that going from shikai to bankai triples (on average) a shinigami's overall power in general. their strength, speed, and reiatsu is upped greatly. even Ichigo, who has a bankai that focuses on his speed, gets a big strength and reiatsu boost from it as well.

yes, having an ability that fits nicely against your opponent is important in a lot of fights. but unlike Barragan and Halibel, Stark didn't really have an element or a special type of ability. he was a pretty straight forward fighter, and his release just boosted his stats and gave him the ability to spam ceros and energy-type attacks (wolves, sword.)

Love's shikai was already doing a good job of being a match up against Stark. it's huge size and strength dissipated the energy attacks upon impact and shielded Love, and it was in no way a slow or cumbersome weapon for him to wield, as we see here--

http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/372/07/
http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/372/08/
http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/372/09/

the wolves are the only thing Stark has that get get through Love's defenses with shikai, because they maneuver around and there are many of them, and they can blow up at Stark's whim.

his guns and sword would be useless.

it seems likely that his bankai would only further his success as far as a "type advantage."

as for Stark's speed, he was only slowed down due to demoralization for that first hit that Love landed. after Lillinette's pep talk, he was back to normal. and as we can see here, Love still kept up and made connections without Stark zipping around and dodging.

http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/372/12/
http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/372/13/
http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/372/15/

and again, just because Stark SAID "here comes the deathblow" does not mean he would have been able to just deliver one at will. EVERYBODY says they're going to win.

kkck
June 22, 2010, 05:05 PM
Bankai was said to increase your fighting capacity between 5 and 10 times, not 3 lol. It does not however increase your physical strength, speed or stamina. Ichigo gets a boost in speed because that is the ability of his bankai and an increase in attack power due to his small sword being a concentration of reiatsu, not everyone would go through something like that. Most characters just get an extreme ability from bankai.

Gran Maestro
June 22, 2010, 05:39 PM
So? Byakuya's praise is totally arbitrary. Just cause he's the strongest of the Kuchiki doesn't really mean much. I could be the strongest member of my family, but that wouldn't be enough for me to consider myself strong overall, would it? How many of the Kuchiki's even become shinigami?

Well, I don't think the vaizards are the best, nor have I ever claimed that they are. I think they're a stronger group than the gotei 13, that's about it. Aizen and Gin are the best.

So you are a member of anti-SS group which, I must admit, has quite a lot of members. They never talk in favour of an SS captain against an outsider, at least I rarely witness it. Lately they started to downplay even Yamamoto to make SS look as bad as possible. SS were the villains in SS arc, I guess they remain to be the hateful villains to date.

You may think Aizen and Gin are the best, I think Byakuya is on par with Gin and we already know Yamamoto was stronger than Aizen (pre-Godzen). Noble clan leaders are usually very strong (Yoruichi and Ginrei are also strong) and if you are the history's strongest member of the biggest clan in SS, I can certainly take it into consideration.


Ichigo was half-dead after the first CO hit him. After that Ulquiorra was just toying around with him trying to see if he would give up.

Ok, then let's compare the damage Ichigo took from the first CO vs. the damage Love and Rose took from the first volley of wolves (while they had their masks on). Who came off worse? Even though the wolves are more powerful than CO, Ichigo came off much worse than Love an Rose did from their respective attacks. Are you going to still try and deny that Ichigo is weaker and less durable than Love?

Only one wolf hit Love and Rose in first part (http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/373/12/), of course they came off better than Ichigo. But after second part of the attack (http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/373/15/) which completed the wolf attack, Love and Rose were certainly in bad condition. If only Love or only Rose took the full damage of wolf attack, they would have been in worse condition than Ichigo. IMO Ichigo is more durable.

And I don't understand why people think Stark is done for when Love goes bankai. Soifon went bankai and still couldn't do anything to Barragan and she wouldn't be able to do anything to Stark with that bankai. Komamura and Mayuri likewise. No known bankai ensures a win against Stark, even Gin's or Byakuya's. They might have won but if we did great damage to them before they got to go bankai (as is the case with Love), they would be in deep trouble.

Eddy01741
June 22, 2010, 05:51 PM
Eh... classifying people as "anti-xxx" or "xxx fanboys", generally not a good idea. Fast track to a warning/ban.


Anyways, if Ichigo is more durable, that means Stark's wolf attack was weaker (than if Ichigo was less durable), as the results looked similar. Broken mask, lots of burns and scratches, tattered clothes, etc. But both still able to fight.

Stark isn't done for when Love goes bankai, it's just that generally if a captain is putting up a decent fight in shikai, when they go bankai, it usually is in the bag. Stark said himself that his ceros are useless against Love and Rose. Love and Rose were able to fight off a good number of wolves too.

Soifon was useless vs Barragan before, so bankai wasn't expected to make her amazing. Love was doing somewhat well vs Stark considering it was his shikai.

Also:

"They might have won but if we did great damage to them before they got to go bankai (as is the case with Love), they would be in deep trouble."

So you are sstating that Love had taken great damage? Unsubstantiated and debatable.

Bankai which ensures a win vs stark? Gin's bankai is pretty much an auto-win vs anybody he is strong enough to pierce with his sword. If he wasn't toying around with Ichigo, Ichigo'd be a dead man.

ryanzokuken
June 22, 2010, 06:08 PM
So you are a member of anti-SS group which, I must admit, has quite a lot of members. They never talk in favour of an SS captain against an outsider, at least I rarely witness it. Lately they started to downplay even Yamamoto to make SS look as bad as possible. SS were the villains in SS arc, I guess they remain to be the hateful villains to date.

You may think Aizen and Gin are the best, I think Byakuya is on par with Gin and we already know Yamamoto was stronger than Aizen (pre-Godzen). Noble clan leaders are usually very strong (Yoruichi and Ginrei are also strong) and if you are the history's strongest member of the biggest clan in SS, I can certainly take it into consideration.



Only one wolf hit Love and Rose in first part (http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/373/12/), of course they came off better than Ichigo. But after second part of the attack (http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/373/15/) which completed the wolf attack, Love and Rose were certainly in bad condition. If only Love or only Rose took the full damage of wolf attack, they would have been in worse condition than Ichigo. IMO Ichigo is more durable.

And I don't understand why people think Stark is done for when Love goes bankai. Soifon went bankai and still couldn't do anything to Barragan and she wouldn't be able to do anything to Stark with that bankai. Komamura and Mayuri likewise. No known bankai ensures a win against Stark, even Gin's or Byakuya's. They might have won but if we did great damage to them before they got to go bankai (as is the case with Love), they would be in deep trouble.

Soi Fon's bankai didn't kill Barragan solely because of the poor matchup. her whole arsenal just didn't work against Barragan because of his abilities. her speed was nullified due to his aging her when she was in range, so her hand to hand and shikai wouldn't work.

her first bankai shot failed to hit him because of his respire combined with decent speed to move away.

her second would have killed him if he were any other espada besides maybe Szayel, who has his rebirth ability.
Barragan had half a skull, no arm, damage to the torso region, etc. he lived because he's a skeleton.

off topic summary aside, my point is she had a bad matchup. that doesn't mean bankais suck.

from what we saw with Love's shikai, his bankai would probably have been plenty useful against Stark, and had Shunsui not shown up, Love probably would have used his bankai because it was clear what a threat Stark was at that point.

"No known bankai ensures a win against Stark"

if it weren't for the well chosen word "ensures" in that sentence, i would call you insane. you really have a lot of love for/faith in Stark, huh?
i really just don't see him as being half as amazing as you seem to, but ah well, this whole thread is based on opinions and assumptions anyways.

Stevenh1990
June 22, 2010, 06:14 PM
It's true that one cero isn't going badly hurt Love but I would think that Stark's Cero Metralleta that lets him fired up to 14, 30 ,100 , or 1,000 ceros at once will greatly injured Love .

Gran Maestro
June 22, 2010, 06:21 PM
I don't think I said anything that may insult El Samurai Guapo. If I did, I'm sorry.

It will be an off-topic post but I think we're wasting our time if we all are determined to insist on our opinions and if we don't care what any counter-argument may say. Since people still say Love had minor injuries, I regret the time I spent to make analysis and comparisons with Ulquiorra's CO because at the end of the day, it doesn't matter at all. To each his own.

Eddy01741
June 22, 2010, 08:51 PM
Well, that's the point of debate here. And there's no definitive evidence to say that Love was most definitely severely or rarely damaged.

Most people agree that Love was not really hurt much, you think that Love was severely hurt. Thus everybody else thinks that Love+mask+bankai could pull off the win and you don't.

Popular opinion (which is not always right) is leaning towards Love not being severely injured. That's what we've come down to. And at this point, we have to agree to disagree.

ryanzokuken
June 22, 2010, 11:27 PM
and that's really what this whole thing comes down to at this point, when we don't know Love's bankai.

the effectiveness of Stark's wolves and his capacity to continue using them is everything.

but there will never be a mutual agreement about that, so i suppose there's no where left for this to go.

Gran Maestro
June 23, 2010, 04:18 AM
Well, that's the point of debate here. And there's no definitive evidence to say that Love was most definitely severely or rarely damaged.

Most people agree that Love was not really hurt much, you think that Love was severely hurt. Thus everybody else thinks that Love+mask+bankai could pull off the win and you don't.

Popular opinion (which is not always right) is leaning towards Love not being severely injured. That's what we've come down to. And at this point, we have to agree to disagree.

I assumed Love was considerably injured and at 50 % HP at most because otherwise:

1) Stark is an idiot. He can sense Love and Rose's reiatsu, he can understand whether they're in trouble or not and he says "Here comes the death blow" even though his first attack barely did any damage as can be seen from their reiatsu readings.

2) Stark is a joke. His strongest technique hardly did any damage to strong opponents like Love or Rose. Even when they took the damage after they lost their masks, they tanked the attack quite comfortably.

3) Masks don't enhance durability. Explosion from one wolf is strong enough to destroy Love's and Rose's mask and do some damage but later explosion from many wolves does almost no additional damage to Love and Rose without mask.

4) Durability has nothing to do with reiatsu. Supposedly Ichigo has strong reiatsu, at least comparable to and possibly more than Love and Rose and yet his durability seems to be much inferior. Also Ichigo doesn't seem to have a tough body, pretty pathetic for a main hero.

5) Espada rankings are horribly wrong. Barragan's respira can one-shot Love and Rose but Stark's strongest technique takes ages to actually do considerable damage. Even Ulquiorra R1's CO is stronger than Stark's wolves because I don't think Love and Rose without mask can tank CO like nothing if it actually hits them.

6) Kubo is the worst mangaka ever. Both Love and Rose are strong enough to take on and defeat Stark one-on-one but he creates a situation in which they both seem to be in trouble and need someone to help them. Thankfully we're doing Kubo's job and say "Who are you kidding Kubo, they weren't in any trouble at all although the situation looks like it."

Since I don't like to mess up manga consistency, I will rather think Love and Rose were indeed considerably injured and a second wolf attack would have finished them. It's a damn simple and obvious explanation and it doesn't contradict anything in the manga, does it?

Eddy01741
June 23, 2010, 09:42 AM
Why do you continue to argue when you accepted the fact that we all will agree to disagree, especially when the majority disagrees with you in this case. *facepalm*


1. Everybody says that they'll kill in one attack, never happens except with Aizen.

2. Stark is the second strongest of a fodder group.

3. When was it said that masks enhance durability? They are known to increase strength. Thus, if you counter enemy attacks with your own (mask-enhanced) attacks, you will be able to defend better, but when did it say that it enhanced durability?

4. Ichigo's reiatsu fluctuates.

5. One cero oscuras destroyed the mask of Ichigo while a couple of wolves (of the 50 some that attacked love+rose) exploded around love and rose and destroyed their masks. Seems like consistency to me since Love and Rose destroyed the majority of the wolves and still received damage similar to a cero oscuras.

6. Kubo is completely terrible in terms of consistency. With Ichigo and Hitsugaya especially, but he hyped up the espada to be a group possibly stronger than the G13 and then they got their asses kicked so hard it wasn't even funny.

En Yang Ji
June 23, 2010, 12:45 PM
@Gran Maestro:

2. A couple of Starrk's wolves don't have to do an incredible amount of damage, for him to be strong. Even if we assumed 2 of Starrk's wolves only took away 15%, 10%, or 5% of Love's health, it would still be an incredibly strong attack, because of the number of wolves Starrks has. If Starrk decided to send all of them at Love and they hit Love would take significant damage.

3. Love may of took little damage when wearing the mask because the mask took the blunt of it.
- Ulquiorra comment implies masks increase durability: http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/340/17/

4. IMO reiastu can increase durability. The reason Espada are so durable is because of the reiastu they concentrate into their skin.

Also the reason why Kenpachi could tank Ichigo's attacks and take little or no damage is because his reiastu was much higher than Ichigo's: http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/105/07/

5. Starrk being a higher rank than Barragan, despite Respira, makes sense. Starrk is the full package: intelligent, versatile, and powerful. Barragan may have Respira, but he's extremely arrogant. Respira is all Barragan has.

Besides that someone with a lot of destructive power could kill Barragan before Respira reaches him.

6. That wouldn't make Kubo a bad mangaka. Shunsui was in the same situation Love and Rose were, before his shikai got in the mood, yet he still was reluctant to use his bankai. Hitsu was reluctant to use his full power too. Love may have the power to beat Starrk on his own, but his bankai may effect his teammates.

Kaiten
June 23, 2010, 10:46 PM
Meh. This is one of those fights I was never sure about. Canon seems to be a mess; Starks says here comes the death blow when all that seems wrong with Love (and Rose) are some scrapes and bruises. Nothing suggested they were done for. Yet neither had their weapons out, randomly seeming to wait for 100 cero's of death. While we don't know what Love's bankai is hasn't every character pwn'ed someone when they first reveal their bankai? Except Renji, I guess.

ryanzokuken
June 23, 2010, 11:02 PM
just an update for my argument..

not sure if everyone was already aware of this, i wasn't until further review.
i hear this talk about mask durability and blah blah blah regarding the wolves.

http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/373/14/

after the first wolf explosion, Love's mask was not broken by it. as you can see, he is removing it here as he emerges from the smoke.
i assume Rose did the same since he is also now maskless.

it seems they were just playing by the rules Kensei spoke of: limiting their mask usage while fighting a powerful opponent.

they never put the masks back on before the second wolf attack.

Gran Maestro
June 24, 2010, 04:05 AM
2. A couple of Starrk's wolves don't have to do an incredible amount of damage, for him to be strong. Even if we assumed 2 of Starrk's wolves only took away 15%, 10%, or 5% of Love's health, it would still be an incredibly strong attack, because of the number of wolves Starrks has. If Starrk decided to send all of them at Love and they hit Love would take significant damage.

I see more than 2-3 wolves. :)

http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/372/18-19/

Even if half of those wolves hit Love, it does significant damage.


3. Love may of took little damage when wearing the mask because the mask took the blunt of it.
- Ulquiorra comment implies masks increase durability: http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/340/17/

Second part of the wolf attack against Love without mask was more severe but yet it seems there's little damage anyway.


4. IMO reiastu can increase durability. The reason Espada are so durable is because of the reiastu they concentrate into their skin.

Also the reason why Kenpachi could tank Ichigo's attacks and take little or no damage is because his reiastu was much higher than Ichigo's: http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/105/07/

Yes, although Eddy01741 disagrees, I agree that reiatsu and mask increase durability. What I don't understand is that how come Ichigo with his immense reiatsu and mask is much less durable compared to Love and Rose.

Ichigo later started to do damage to Kenpachi when he overcame his fear:

http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/108/19/

Ichigo is strong, he got stronger. His reiatsu cannot be that much weaker than Rose, this is impossible.


5. Starrk being a higher rank than Barragan, despite Respira, makes sense. Starrk is the full package: intelligent, versatile, and powerful. Barragan may have Respira, but he's extremely arrogant. Respira is all Barragan has.

Besides that someone with a lot of destructive power could kill Barragan before Respira reaches him.

Well, Stark seemed to be intelligent until he said "here comes the death blow." He swallowed the Idiot Pill at that moment because otherwise he would have never said such a thing. Stark can sense Love and Rose's reiatsu. If they're in trouble he can sense it, if they're not in trouble he can still sense it. The person who senses Love's reiatsu says "Love is in trouble", we who can't sense Love's reiatsu say "Love is not in trouble." If Stark still goes terribly wrong after sensing their reiatsu, it means Stark is an idiot.

And frankly Ulquiorra R1's CO seemed to be much more impressive than Stark's wolves. Love and Rose without mask took a severe wolf attack with lots of wolves and had minor injuries, one CO finished Ichigo. I don't know what destructive power you're talking about.

Perhaps ryanzokuken is right. Stark sucks, he is pathetic, he doesn't deserve to be primera.


6. That wouldn't make Kubo a bad mangaka. Shunsui was in the same situation Love and Rose were, before his shikai got in the mood, yet he still was reluctant to use his bankai. Hitsu was reluctant to use his full power too. Love may have the power to beat Starrk on his own, but his bankai may effect his teammates.

Love may or may not have the power to defeat Stark, this is not the point. If Kubo puts Love and Rose (or Shunsui and Ukitake, it doesn't matter) in such a position that they take the damage from the strongest attack of primera and get injured and then an intelligent and analytical person like Stark says "you're done for, my next attack will kill you both" but someone else intervenes before Stark can execute the attack (seemingly saving them), I expect Love or Rose or Shunsui or Ukitake to be injured and in trouble. If my strongest attack hardly injures my opponents, I don't say "here comes the death blow", I say "oops, we have a problem". Stark isn't blind, he can see what we can see, right?

As Kaiten.Sama pointed out, it seems many people think "Canon is a mess." This is what I deduce from people's statements. Well, I respect these opinions but in that case there's no point in discussing this part of the manga which Kubo seriously messed up. As I explained it in this post (http://mangahelpers.com/forum/showthread.php?p=1956281#post1956281), Kubo messed it up so bad that Rose looks like ET compared to Ichigo, the main hero.
[hr]

while i agree with your general point, i wouldn't exactly say Ichigo lost to Gin or Soi Fon lost to Barragan.

I don't think anybody will disagree that Soifon would be dead meat without Hachigen's help. ;)

ryanzokuken
June 24, 2010, 02:08 PM
I see more than 2-3 wolves. :)

http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/372/18-19/

Even if half of those wolves hit Love, it does significant damage.



Second part of the wolf attack against Love without mask was more severe but yet it seems there's little damage anyway.



Yes, although Eddy01741 disagrees, I agree that reiatsu and mask increase durability. What I don't understand is that how come Ichigo with his immense reiatsu and mask is much less durable compared to Love and Rose.

Ichigo later started to do damage to Kenpachi when he overcame his fear:

http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/108/19/

Ichigo is strong, he got stronger. His reiatsu cannot be that much weaker than Rose, this is impossible.



Well, Stark seemed to be intelligent until he said "here comes the death blow." He swallowed the Idiot Pill at that moment because otherwise he would have never said such a thing. Stark can sense Love and Rose's reiatsu. If they're in trouble he can sense it, if they're not in trouble he can still sense it. The person who senses Love's reiatsu says "Love is in trouble", we who can't sense Love's reiatsu say "Love is not in trouble." If Stark still goes terribly wrong after sensing their reiatsu, it means Stark is an idiot.

And frankly Ulquiorra R1's CO seemed to be much more impressive than Stark's wolves. Love and Rose without mask took a severe wolf attack with lots of wolves and had minor injuries, one CO finished Ichigo. I don't know what destructive power you're talking about.

Perhaps ryanzokuken is right. Stark sucks, he is pathetic, he doesn't deserve to be primera.



Love may or may not have the power to defeat Stark, this is not the point. If Kubo puts Love and Rose (or Shunsui and Ukitake, it doesn't matter) in such a position that they take the damage from the strongest attack of primera and get injured and then an intelligent and analytical person like Stark says "you're done for, my next attack will kill you both" but someone else intervenes before Stark can execute the attack (seemingly saving them), I expect Love or Rose or Shunsui or Ukitake to be injured and in trouble. If my strongest attack hardly injures my opponents, I don't say "here comes the death blow", I say "oops, we have a problem". Stark isn't blind, he can see what we can see, right?

As Kaiten.Sama pointed out, it seems many people think "Canon is a mess." This is what I deduce from people's statements. Well, I respect these opinions but in that case there's no point in discussing this part of the manga which Kubo seriously messed up. As I explained it in this post (http://mangahelpers.com/forum/showthread.php?p=1956281#post1956281), Kubo messed it up so bad that Rose looks like ET compared to Ichigo, the main hero.
<hr noshade size="1">


I don't think anybody will disagree that Soifon would be dead meat without Hachigen's help. ;)

see one of my posts on the previous page about the mask durability stuff. it's a non-factor in this debate, as nobody's mask was broken off.

Eddy01741
June 24, 2010, 03:54 PM
Alright, let me sum up your logic and why (in my eyes at least ) it is faulty to me Gran maestro.

Ichigo>Love/Rose in durability since Ichigo has more reiatsu.

More reiatsu=more durability, also, more reiatsu=stronger mask.

Now I'm gonna put out some arbitrary numbers here:

To break Ichigo's mask, let's say Ulquiorra's attack needed to do 125 damage (arbitrary numbers).

According to your logic, to break Love/Rose's masks, an attack would need to do at least 100 damage (arbitrary number smaller than 125).

However, Stark is ranked higher than Ulquiorra R1, so his attack must have done more damage than the R1 cero oscuras.

Thus let's say that ulquiorra's attack did 150 damage, enough to break the mask and cause basic scratches and burns.

And with your logic, Stark's attack (which had to be stronger than Ulquiorra's CO from your logic) must do more than 150 damage, I'll just say 175 as another arbitrary number. Thus, the mask is broken and Love and Rose must have taken even more damage, right?

And thus, since Love has taken all that damage, he would be done even with a bankai up his sleeve.


Here's where your argument goes wrong:

Is Ichigo more durable than Love? Does he really have more reiatsu? At times he certainly has, but his reiatsu fluctuates (his power is notoriously inconsistent).

Does one wolf have to be stronger than cero oscuras? Who said that Aizen's rubric for rankings was: "To be ranked higher, your attack must be stronger"? Cero Oscuras is a one time one shot attack that has the usual charge up time. Wolves come in a pack (like 50 at a time), can come from differnent directions, and can continually attack. I can see it being reasonable that a pack of 50 wolves would be stronger than a cero oscuras, but one or two wolves (which is what we saw) exploding stronger than a cero oscuras? There's no definitive evidence of such a thing. You want inconsistency with attacks and rankings? What's stronger, respira or wolves? Barragan is #2 and Stark is #1, hmm, that doesn't make any sense. Stark is a better overall fighter (faster, more than just one ability in resurreccion, etc.), but his wolves can't touch the power of respira. Could it be possible that he is a better fighter overall than R1 ulquiorra (who had nothing but Cero Oscuras and a sword from what we saw) but a wolf is weaker than a cero oscuras? Seems very possible to me.

Moving on, look at Ikkaku's fight vs the fraccion. He sustained massive injuries, far past scratches and burns:

http://img-c.onemanga.com/mangas/00000003/000107732/22.jpg

And he was able to go bankai a moment later, and more importantly, win.

Are you really saying that Love has no chance of winnning just because of his injuries even if he pulled out his bankai? I mean, c'mon, Ikkaku is clearly in worse condition that either Ichigo or Love was, and Ikkaku pulled it off.

El Samurai Guapo
June 24, 2010, 05:18 PM
Ichigo got way more messed up from the first Cero Oscuras than Love and Rose did from both wolf attacks (the second CO freakin' killed him).
http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/347/07/
vs.
http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/373/18/

How is this not obvious?

Ichigo was bleeding all over, and his clothes were torn up far more than Rose or Love's. The clothes is relevant because we know in Ichigo's case it's connected to his bankai. With his outfit almost completely destroyed from his one attack, I'd argue he suffered far more damage than Love and Rose did. Also, while I do believe that reiatsu and vitality are correlated, having more reiatsu doesn't automatically mean you can take more hits and keep going. I'm sure there's plenty of people out there with more reiatsu than Kenpachi, but he probably has the most vitality of any bleach character.

Gran Maestro
June 24, 2010, 06:04 PM
Alright, let me sum up your logic and why (in my eyes at least ) it is faulty to me Gran maestro.

Ichigo>Love/Rose in durability since Ichigo has more reiatsu.

More reiatsu=more durability, also, more reiatsu=stronger mask.

Now I'm gonna put out some arbitrary numbers here:

To break Ichigo's mask, let's say Ulquiorra's attack needed to do 125 damage (arbitrary numbers).

According to your logic, to break Love/Rose's masks, an attack would need to do at least 100 damage (arbitrary number smaller than 125).

However, Stark is ranked higher than Ulquiorra R1, so his attack must have done more damage than the R1 cero oscuras.

Thus let's say that ulquiorra's attack did 150 damage, enough to break the mask and cause basic scratches and burns.

And with your logic, Stark's attack (which had to be stronger than Ulquiorra's CO from your logic) must do more than 150 damage, I'll just say 175 as another arbitrary number. Thus, the mask is broken and Love and Rose must have taken even more damage, right?

And thus, since Love has taken all that damage, he would be done even with a bankai up his sleeve.


Here's where your argument goes wrong:

Is Ichigo more durable than Love? Does he really have more reiatsu? At times he certainly has, but his reiatsu fluctuates (his power is notoriously inconsistent).

Does one wolf have to be stronger than cero oscuras? Who said that Aizen's rubric for rankings was: "To be ranked higher, your attack must be stronger"? Cero Oscuras is a one time one shot attack that has the usual charge up time. Wolves come in a pack (like 50 at a time), can come from differnent directions, and can continually attack. I can see it being reasonable that a pack of 50 wolves would be stronger than a cero oscuras, but one or two wolves (which is what we saw) exploding stronger than a cero oscuras? There's no definitive evidence of such a thing. You want inconsistency with attacks and rankings? What's stronger, respira or wolves? Barragan is #2 and Stark is #1, hmm, that doesn't make any sense. Stark is a better overall fighter (faster, more than just one ability in resurreccion, etc.), but his wolves can't touch the power of respira. Could it be possible that he is a better fighter overall than R1 ulquiorra (who had nothing but Cero Oscuras and a sword from what we saw) but a wolf is weaker than a cero oscuras? Seems very possible to me.

No, one wolf is certainly weaker than CO. ryanzokuken pointed out that Love actually removed his mask, it makes sense because I wouldn't expect one wolf to be strong enough to break Love's mask. I think Stark is indeed stronger than Barragan and he can defeat Barragan using cero guns and wolves but I'll leave it at that, it's off-topic.

Now, let me give arbitrary numbers. I'll assume Love and Rose were slightly injured as you say. Of course Stark would still be going horribly wrong for he made the "here comes the death blow" comment but let's ignore it.

Let's say durability is health and mask bonus is 50 %. Love's health is 100 without mask and 150 with mask. Let's say the wolf attack makes 40 damage in total. Love and Rose's health after the first wolf attack is 80 (-20 health from each). One wolf attacked Love when he was wearing the mask but it doesn't make much difference, so I ignored it to simplify the calculation.

If a complete wolf attack does 40 damage in total, a CO from Ulquiorra R1 who was 3 ranks below Stark and who traded attack power for regeneration, does 20 damage, is it fair? Let's say Ichigo's health without mask is x.

Health of Ichigo with mask is 1.5x. Damage from Ulquiorra's CO effectively finished the fight, let's say it reduced Ichigo's health to 0.25x.

Therefore 1.5x-0.25x = damage from CO = 20

1.25x = 20 x = 16

Ichigo's health is 16. It's less than 1/6 of Love and Rose's, he's pathetic.

Ichigo's reiatsu was fluctuating when Shirosaki was fighting for control but does it fluctuate wildly in any fight? I think his reiatsu was pretty stable when he was fighting Grimmjow, Ulquiorra and Gin.

Durability is a function of reiatsu and toughness of body. Ichigo is the main hero, so Kubo probably grants him one of the toughest bodies in the manga but let's say they all are equally tough. Since Ichigo's durability is 1/6 of Love and Rose's, it means Ichigo's reiatsu is far weaker than Love's.

Ichigo had captain level reiatsu, possibly more when he was fighting Ulquiorra. But then Love and Rose have reiatsu which is multiple times stronger than a captain's. Therefore their reiatsu rivals and surpasses even Aizen's or Yamamoto's. For example Rose can curbstomp Komamura's bankai without releasing his sword and wearing mask.


Moving on, look at Ikkaku's fight vs the fraccion. He sustained massive injuries, far past scratches and burns:

http://img-c.onemanga.com/mangas/00000003/000107732/22.jpg

And he was able to go bankai a moment later, and more importantly, win.

Are you really saying that Love has no chance of winnning just because of his injuries even if he pulled out his bankai? I mean, c'mon, Ikkaku is clearly in worse condition that either Ichigo or Love was, and Ikkaku pulled it off.

Ikkaku was fighting a fraccion. VCs defeated fraccions with their shikai, therefore Ikkaku was certainly expected to overwhelm a fraccion with bankai even when he was injured.

I don't say Love has no chance of winning, it depends on his bankai. But if Love is as injured as I think he is, then he definitely needs a bankai which can one-shot Stark or provide excellent protection against the wolves. I don't know a bankai which can do either and the guys, who may have a bankai that can do that, can put up better resistance against Stark even with shikai. Therefore I'm a bit skeptical about Love's winning chances even with bankai. Love without any injuries would certainly have much better chances.
[hr]

Ichigo got way more messed up from the first Cero Oscuras than Love and Rose did from both wolf attacks (the second CO freakin' killed him).
http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/347/07/
vs.
http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/373/18/

How is this not obvious?

Ichigo was bleeding all over, and his clothes were torn up far more than Rose or Love's. The clothes is relevant because we know in Ichigo's case it's connected to his bankai. With his outfit almost completely destroyed from his one attack, I'd argue he suffered far more damage than Love and Rose did. Also, while I do believe that reiatsu and vitality are correlated, having more reiatsu doesn't automatically mean you can take more hits and keep going. I'm sure there's plenty of people out there with more reiatsu than Kenpachi, but he probably has the most vitality of any bleach character.

Suppose that first wolf attack reduced Love and Rose's health to 50%. Stark can say "Here comes the death blow" because he expects second wolf attack to make another 50% damage and kill them.

Let's say CO reduced Ichigo's health to 25%. If Ichigo with mask has slightly less durability than Love without mask, it explains everything. IMO Ichigo must have more durability than Love because he has much more reiatsu but that part is a bit inconsistent in the manga.

I'm not sure there're plenty of people out there with more reiatsu than Kenpachi, IMO only Yamamoto and Aizen. Kenpachi's reiatsu when he was wearing eyepatch was on par with or slightly weaker than Byakuya's and the eyepatch suppresses a great deal of it. Kenpachi who mastered his bankai would be a force to behold and fear.

Nicholas.Sama
June 24, 2010, 06:56 PM
One massive change that almost everyone seems to have forgotten is that Starrk was pwning Love AND Rose.
If he were to use all his wolves on 1 target the damage would probably increase immensely.

kkck
June 24, 2010, 07:07 PM
One massive change that almost everyone seems to have forgotten is that Starrk was pwning Love AND Rose.
If he were to use all his wolves on 1 target the damage would probably increase immensely.

I am not really sure about that. For the most part, they were really close to each other. In that sense, most of the explosions hit the both of them. I don't think there would have been a significant difference in the short run at least.

Gran Maestro
June 24, 2010, 07:24 PM
I am not really sure about that. For the most part, they were really close to each other. In that sense, most of the explosions hit the both of them. I don't think there would have been a significant difference in the short run at least.

If you're right, Stark and his wolves look even worse. :blink

If they both took most of the damage from a wolf attack without mask and survived with minor injuries, it means Stark's destructive power was mediocre at best which begs the question why on earth he was primera.

Jackk
June 24, 2010, 07:33 PM
If you're right, Stark and his wolves look even worse. :blink

If they both took most of the damage from a wolf attack without mask and survived with minor injuries, it means Stark's destructive power was mediocre at best which begs the question why on earth he was primera.

Either that, OR if you think about it... it could actually make Love and Rose look better.

Eddy01741
June 24, 2010, 07:35 PM
Everybody says they'll defeat the enemy in one attack. Only few (like Aizen) have delivered.

A complete wolf attack doing 40 damage? No, not really fair I agree, that would be pathetic. COnsider this though, Love and Rose destroyed the majority of the wolves nad only 2-3 actually hit them. They reduced a lot of the damage taken by destroying the majority of the wolves.

What I mean is Ichigo's reiatsu fluctuates, I mean in general his power fluctuates. One moment he seems to be stronger than Byakuya, then the next Byakuya says that he's too afraid of bankai and his power level goes kablooey.

Don't grasp at straws here. Love doesn't need to be anywhere near full health to pull off a win in bankai. Don't use some stupid rank argument either. Ikkaku is a VC level shinigami and Edorad was a VC level arrancar. Love is a Captain-level vizard and Starrk is a captain-level arrancar. Bankai can still easily turn the tide.

Seriously, everybody in this entire forum is disagreeing with you. Look at what happened to Ikkaku, he's cut up, his shikai is in two pieces, and he pulls off a win. You say that because Love has scratches and torn clothes that he's definitively defeated? Love has more than a good chance since it's bankai we're talking about.

Your argument is hinged upon two facts which you argue and will not budge on to no end:

Ichigo is more durable than Love.

All of Stark's attacks must be stronger than Ulquiorra R1's attacks due to rank.



Ichigo more durable than love is a hard sell considering at this point Ichigo is looking inferior to every captain save for maybe Komamura (albeit komamura has had the worst opponents ever).

Stark's attacks being more powerful, I've contested this multiple times... We seem to agree that an entire wolf attack is stronger than one Cero Oscuras. So you by induction conclude that Stark did way more damage to Love. However, you fail to see that Love and Rose blocked the majority of the wolves:

Here are the tens of wolves that Love and Rose defeated. All those wolves defeated would be unable to do damage to Love and Rose logically.
http://img-c.onemanga.com/mangas/00000003/000274562/07.jpghttp://img-c.onemanga.com/mangas/00000003/000274562/09.jpghttp://img-c.onemanga.com/mangas/00000003/000274562/11.jpg

Now these are the wolves (three, I counted) that successfully attacked Love and Rose:

http://img-c.onemanga.com/mangas/00000003/000274562/13.jpghttp://img-c.onemanga.com/mangas/00000003/000274562/14.jpg

So let's do arbitrary numbers again. Cero Oscuras does 100 damage, A complete wolf attack does (I'll be really generous) 500 damage. Let's say there are 50 wolves (if you count the last page of chapter 372 it is looking like about 50). 47 of 50 wolves were defeated and thus unable to deliver their damage. Only 3 of 50 wolves were able to deliver their damage, what's 3/50ths of 500? 30.

kkck
June 24, 2010, 07:41 PM
If you're right, Stark and his wolves look even worse. :blink

If they both took most of the damage from a wolf attack without mask and survived with minor injuries, it means Stark's destructive power was mediocre at best which begs the question why on earth he was primera.

Not necessarily.... the strength of each wolf was not necessarily power but rather numbers and versatility. Not to mention those critters could physically harm an enemy by biting and scratching while at the same time they could not be physically hurt. IMHO dozens of intangible exploding wolves are damn deadly.... Unless love's bankai (probably along with mask) does not have a skill which could at least be used to either attack in long range or instantly cut the distance, love would have had serious trouble. Starrk was not necessarily the power type and not being being the power type would not mean he was weak. IMHO starrk was a spammer (kinda like when you play video games and invariably lose against the guy whose only move is to tap A really fast) kind of fighter, he could use reasonably powerful attacks at an incredible rate to a great effect.

Gran Maestro
June 25, 2010, 03:28 AM
Everybody says they'll defeat the enemy in one attack. Only few (like Aizen) have delivered.

Stark was an intelligent, analytical, reasonable person who didn't overestimate himself at any point, I think it must be taken into consideration. This is his character and I don't think his character suddenly turned into a moron. And who is everybody? Who else in the manga made a similar comment after he/she proved himself to be a reasonable person who didn't overestimate himself? Most people are nutjobs who say "I'll win" whoever their opponent is, Stark is not one of them. He never said "I'll destroy you, you can't compare with my powers" when he was fighting Shunsui.


Seriously, everybody in this entire forum is disagreeing with you. Look at what happened to Ikkaku, he's cut up, his shikai is in two pieces, and he pulls off a win. You say that because Love has scratches and torn clothes that he's definitively defeated? Love has more than a good chance since it's bankai we're talking about.

Your argument is hinged upon two facts which you argue and will not budge on to no end:

Ichigo is more durable than Love.

All of Stark's attacks must be stronger than Ulquiorra R1's attacks due to rank.

I don't think everybody disagrees with me, it's just that people who disagree with me have more time and energy to make posts. The people who voted for Stark are not making comments, I'm the only one. On the contrary, many people who voted for Love are actively in debate.

And if everybody disagrees with me, am I supposed to stop? If everybody says/implies "Ulquiorra is a much better fighter than Stark", am I supposed to agree? This is exactly what's going on here.

I believe Ichigo is more durable than Love but let's say Love is more durable. People imply Love is not only more durable but he's also so much durable that Ichigo is like a VC compared to him. You say Ichigo's reiatsu fluctuates, elaborate. For example, how did his reiatsu fluctuate when he was fighting Ulquiorra? His reiatsu was strong at the beginning of the Ulquiorra fight but suddenly hit rock bottom when Ulquiorra fired CO? Is it what you're saying?

And yes, #1 Stark's strongest attack must be able to do much more damage than #4 Ulquiorra's who traded attack power for regeneration. This is common sense.


So let's do arbitrary numbers again. Cero Oscuras does 100 damage, A complete wolf attack does (I'll be really generous) 500 damage. Let's say there are 50 wolves (if you count the last page of chapter 372 it is looking like about 50). 47 of 50 wolves were defeated and thus unable to deliver their damage. Only 3 of 50 wolves were able to deliver their damage, what's 3/50ths of 500? 30.

As kkck stated, these wolves were intangible, all the wolves successfully hit Love and Rose. Your point is moot.

ryanzokuken
June 25, 2010, 10:39 AM
Stark was an intelligent, analytical, reasonable person who didn't overestimate himself at any point, I think it must be taken into consideration. This is his character and I don't think his character suddenly turned into a moron. And who is everybody? Who else in the manga made a similar comment after he/she proved himself to be a reasonable person who didn't overestimate himself? Most people are nutjobs who say "I'll win" whoever their opponent is, Stark is not one of them. He never said "I'll destroy you, you can't compare with my powers" when he was fighting Shunsui.

everybody does that whole

"my name is ______, remember it, it is the name of the man who is going to kill you."

or

"i don't care what your name is, i'm about to kill you, so it doesn't matter."

or

"nobody sees this technique and lives."

etc etc.

even smart fighters don't say "well, i'm not sure if i can beat you. you might kill me. but let's try our best!"

Eddy01741
June 25, 2010, 11:33 AM
And yes, #1 Stark's strongest attack must be able to do much more damage than #4 Ulquiorra's who traded attack power for regeneration. This is common sense.



As kkck stated, these wolves were intangible, all the wolves successfully hit Love and Rose. Your point is moot.

No, it doesn't have to do more. Stark could be a better overall fighter than Ulquiorra and have a more versatile yet weaker strongest attack.

The wolves are not intangible:

http://img-c.onemanga.com/mangas/00000003/000274562/07.jpghttp://img-c.onemanga.com/mangas/00000003/000274562/09.jpg

Love's club quite clearly is hitting wolves, and Rose's whip quite clearly cuts through some wolves.

Point not moot.

EDIT: Just read over the entire chapter, nowhere are the wolves described as intangible, here is what has been said about them:

-They're like flames in that they keep coming (a reference to the number of wolves Starks used)
-It is a mysterious, magic-like ability according to Rose
-Love first thinks they are an amalgamation of a cero
-Their close range explosion is dangerous
-Stark says they are not ceros
-These "lupine warheads" are pieces of his soul


Did I miss any reference to intangible? No, I triple-checked. No mention of intangible anywhere in chapter 373.

Gran Maestro
June 25, 2010, 12:03 PM
The wolves are restoring themselves after they're being attacked, aren't they? :blink

http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/373/09/

http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/373/12/

kkck
June 25, 2010, 03:18 PM
http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/373/09/

Look at the second frame in the page. The wolves that rose attacked with his whip did not disappear they simply reformed. That's what he meant by saying they were like flames, stuff just went through them without affecting them. Neither love nor rose could actually really destroy them given what we saw....