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Xsoteria
June 12, 2010, 05:57 PM
Ok this is pretty straight forward. If some of you would just discard Isshin right away (and I imagine most would), I would like to set the fight with power limited to what has been shown so far. That would mean no imaginary bankais or untold powers. Isshin hasn't shown much so far, and this is probably too early of an estimation, but considering how well he stood up to Aizen (better than the old man), I would say that he could at least rival Yama-ji.

Both are ridiculously strong in terms of physical strength and extremely capable sword fighters. None of the shikai moves Yamamoto pulled out so far would have too much of an edge over Isshin's brutal Getsuga (in terms of power).

I know it's been said that Yama is the most powerful shinigami in the last thousand years, but we don't know if that accounts for the Royal Guards, and there is some rumour Isshin may be one of them, with his mysterious mystery history and weird uniform. My bet so far would in fact go to Isshin, even though I'm a Yama fan.

So, what do you guys think?

Gran Maestro
June 12, 2010, 06:28 PM
I think Yamamoto would win quite comfortably. Isshin did well against Aizen because he wasn't under hypnosis, Yamamoto without RJ would have demolished Aizen without KS. Yamamoto took a barrage of punches from one of strongest arrancars (most probably stronger than Stark, WW defeated bankai Kensei) and laughed it off. He proceeded to destroy the very same arrancar who had hierro(=steel skin) and crazy regeneration with his bare hands. I didn't see any other physical strength feat that remotely rivals Yamamoto's, Isshin doesn't stand a chance against him. Only Godzen and Ichigo super form (that will defeat Godzen) are better.

P.S. Even if Isshin is a RG, it doesn't mean he is stronger. Was Hikifune stronger than Yamamoto too? I guess only the captain (and perhaps VC) of zero division is stronger than Yamamoto and he/she's over 1000 years old.

Exodi
June 12, 2010, 06:44 PM
This:
http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/406/01/

or this:
http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/393/12-13/

The difference is clear, at least to me. Isshin was able to play with Aizen for a little bit, but Isshin isn't under the effects of Kyoka Suigetsu.

Yamamoto, who is, "purposefully" took a knife in the torso, had his zanpakutou ability sealed, destroyed Wonderweiss with his bare hands, and was blown up by his own ridiculous power (which still didn't entirely kill him). Then he activated a powerful kidou, which is still blows Isshin's Getsuga (and everything else Isshin did) out of the water.

Not to mention Yamamoto can make a shinigami foam at the mouth with just a stare.

Isshin is tough and all, but Yamamoto would butter him and eat him for breakfast.

Xsoteria
June 12, 2010, 06:53 PM
KS was there more as a fear factor than anything else, it seems to me. It didn't really hinder Yamamoto in any way (other than the selfimpalement, which hardly left a trace on him).

Also I would like to note that Yama's kido did considerably lesser damage to Aizen than Getsuga Tenshou. And on top of that, Aizen was in his fusion mode.

Gran Maestro
June 12, 2010, 07:03 PM
KS was there more as a fear factor than anything else, it seems to me. It didn't really hinder Yamamoto in any way (other than the selfimpalement, which hardly left a trace on him).

Aizen didn't fight Yamamoto, WW did. KS is a major inconvenience and anybody who disagrees must be following another manga. :)

Xsoteria
June 12, 2010, 07:54 PM
Aizen didn't fight Yamamoto, WW did. KS is a major inconvenience and anybody who disagrees must be following another manga. :)

KS is really the most dangerous weapon in Bleach so far, at least by my estimation. It's just that Aizen didn't use it in throughout Yama's fighting. Which really makes KS's existence sort of irrelevant for the purpose of estimating old man's abilities.

Bowser
June 12, 2010, 08:03 PM
Yamamoto - this man shines as the old grumpy man who spams flame. Don't really like him though. I don't see Isshin beating this guy. On the note:



Yamamoto states that the reason why he has been able to serve as the Captain-Commander of the Gotei 13 for over 1,000 years is because there hasn't been a Shinigami stronger than him born in all that time

Even the Zero Division probably won't be able to best him (own opinion) - cuz if he's the strongest shinigami in all 1000 years, how could Zero Division, formed of former captains who are weaker than Yamamoto (I guess) be able to beat him?

mehh I don't know whether we'll able to see Aizens Bankai but it probably will be something like erasing/distorting memories ¬¬

Katz
June 12, 2010, 09:42 PM
I love Isshin's character, he's like a kooler version of Ichigo

but in terms of Vs. against Old man Yama, from what Isshin has shown so far, I don't really see him having a chance against Yama, he might give yama a "true test" without lil tricks that Aizen pulled etc, but at the end of this battle Isshin is on the ground and Yama is calling him a "kid"

Gran Maestro
June 13, 2010, 03:13 AM
KS is really the most dangerous weapon in Bleach so far, at least by my estimation. It's just that Aizen didn't use it in throughout Yama's fighting. Which really makes KS's existence sort of irrelevant for the purpose of estimating old man's abilities.

I don't get your point, you say KS is dangerous and then disregard the difference between being under hypnosis and not being under hypnosis. Being under hypnosis changes the whole context.

Aizen didn't fight Yamamoto, he stabbed him once, got caught and then WW interfered. If Yamamoto wasn't under hypnosis, he wouldn't have let Aizen stab him and then gone kamikaze, he would have fought Aizen in normal ways just like Isshin did. And if Isshin was under hypnosis, Aizen could have defeated him just like he defeated other captains, I don't think Isshin could have done any better than other captains against KS.

As you can see, KS is relevant and WW is also relevant because WW interfered and saved Aizen. Unless you argue that Isshin is also strong enough to shrug off barrage of punches from WW and then defeat him with his bare hands, I don't think we can say Isshin is stronger. RJ is the strongest zanpakuto, it means something, doesn't it? ;)

Katz
June 13, 2010, 04:09 AM
I don't get your point, you say KS is dangerous and then disregard the difference between being under hypnosis and not being under hypnosis. Being under hypnosis changes the whole context.

Aizen didn't fight Yamamoto, he stabbed him once, got caught and then WW interfered. If Yamamoto wasn't under hypnosis, he wouldn't have let Aizen stab him and then gone kamikaze, he would have fought Aizen in normal ways just like Isshin did. And if Isshin was under hypnosis, Aizen could have defeated him just like he defeated other captains, I don't think Isshin could have done any better than other captains against KS.

As you can see, KS is relevant and WW is also relevant because WW interfered and saved Aizen. Unless you argue that Isshin is also strong enough to shrug off barrage of punches from WW and then defeat him with his bare hands, I don't think we can say Isshin is stronger. RJ is the strongest zanpakuto, it means something, doesn't it? ;)

I gotta agree with this guy, by time Isshin showed up Aizen was apparently "tired" and seemed to relinquish his Shikai all together, IMO if Isshin/Urahara had been under the affects of KS they wouldn't have looked as impressive as they did, I mean Aizen did just kinda stand there and eat attacks the entire time, with yama in his face he reacted.

But hey people have they're opinion and such, but we've seen more impressive feats from gramps then Isshin so far IMO, though Isshin's GT on "GOD" Aizen was pretty damn impressive, still in my mind Yama > any members of the current and possibly former Gotei 13 (not counting H4X Aizen..he get saved by plot)



Another post by "Gran Maestro" above mentioned the RG and he's right on that part as well, I mean unless the RG recruited a Captain Comm. from 2000+ years ago then Yama (which could be the case since the "King's key" location is only passed from one Captain Comm to the next, who could very well be the guy who heads up the RG,we'll see I guess) should infact be more powerful then the majority of them.

And hell we haven't even got a notion of evidence of how powerful Yama's bankai is (its not in this scenario) even though its probably just more fire but if his RJ makes captains sweat, what do you think his bankai is capable of.....-Isshin- "clean up Ichigo, my pants"

Xsoteria
June 13, 2010, 07:14 AM
I don't get your point, you say KS is dangerous and then disregard the difference between being under hypnosis and not being under hypnosis. Being under hypnosis changes the whole context.

It does, if Aizen is actually using the hypnosis. He didn't. I'm not sure I can make this any clearer than it is. KS is really a tough break, but it had no effect on any of what Yama did (other than the impalement which hardly did anything). I recognize the danger of KS, but the fact that Aizen never used it renders it irrelevant for this fight.

Unless of course, you argue that the reason Aizen kicked all of the other captain's asses is because he was using KS while fighting them, and not because they're just that weaker than him. Which really is baseless assumption, since Kubo never implied that. :s



As you can see, KS is relevant and WW is also relevant because WW interfered and saved Aizen. Unless you argue that Isshin is also strong enough to shrug off barrage of punches from WW and then defeat him with his bare hands, I don't think we can say Isshin is stronger. RJ is the strongest zanpakuto, it means something, doesn't it?

Of course RJ is the strongest zanpakuto. I just think that none of the abilities he has shown so far were much greater than that Getsuga Tenshou Isshin did. In theory, yes, Old Man has a stronger zanpakuto, but we aren't dealing with what his potential powers, we're dealing with what he has shown so far.

I would also argue that Isshin has shown some real heavy endurance, at least compared to Yoruichi and Urahara. While they're knocked out cold, Isshin got back up in a matter of seconds. And I believe that the wooping he got from GodAizen is a much more serious than anything WW could dish out. Unless you argue that WW fought harder than GodAizen or something :blink

So that's endurance.

http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/398/18/
I think this is a good indicator at what would Isshin do to WW with his bare hands.

But that is rather irrelevant as I doubt they would choose to enter some fistfight when they could use their zanpakutos (although with limited techniques shown so far).

Eddy01741
June 13, 2010, 08:37 AM
Yamamoto's shikai is strong enough to create a captain-killing armegeddon:
http://img-c.onemanga.com/mangas/00000003/000293322/14.jpghttp://img-c.onemanga.com/mangas/00000003/000293322/15.jpg

Nuff said, that's only his shikai too.

Gran Maestro
June 13, 2010, 08:42 AM
It does, if Aizen is actually using the hypnosis. He didn't. I'm not sure I can make this any clearer than it is. KS is really a tough break, but it had no effect on any of what Yama did (other than the impalement which hardly did anything). I recognize the danger of KS, but the fact that Aizen never used it renders it irrelevant for this fight.

Unless of course, you argue that the reason Aizen kicked all of the other captain's asses is because he was using KS while fighting them, and not because they're just that weaker than him. Which really is baseless assumption, since Kubo never implied that. :s

If Yamamoto wasn't under hypnosis, would he have done what he did? No, he wouldn't. As a logical consequence, KS had an effect on what Yamamoto did. And IMO Aizen couldn't have defeated Shunsui, Shinji, Hitsugaya and Soifon without KS, KS provided him with the necessary opening to defeat them.

Let me give an example: Suppose that I pointed a gun at you and tied you up. You argue that the gun is irrelevant in your being tied up because I didn't use the gun to shoot at you, I only threatened to use it. Aizen was holding a gun when he was against Yamamoto, Aizen wasn't holding a gun when he was against Isshin, the presence of a gun changes everything and as long as there's a gun, the gun is relevant.


Of course RJ is the strongest zanpakuto. I just think that none of the abilities he has shown so far were much greater than that Getsuga Tenshou Isshin did. In theory, yes, Old Man has a stronger zanpakuto, but we aren't dealing with what his potential powers, we're dealing with what he has shown so far.

I would also argue that Isshin has shown some real heavy endurance, at least compared to Yoruichi and Urahara. While they're knocked out cold, Isshin got back up in a matter of seconds. And I believe that the wooping he got from GodAizen is a much more serious than anything WW could dish out. Unless you argue that WW fought harder than GodAizen or something :blink

So that's endurance.

http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/398/18/
I think this is a good indicator at what would Isshin do to WW with his bare hands.

But that is rather irrelevant as I doubt they would choose to enter some fistfight when they could use their zanpakutos (although with limited techniques shown so far).

Godzen's attack was stronger than WW's but it did a considerable amount of damage to Isshin, WW's attacks did almost nothing to Yamamoto. Yamamoto withstood an attack which was strong enough to reduce an area many times bigger than KT to ashes, it took a much stronger attack to affect Yamamoto in the same way Isshin was affected. Yamamoto's endurance seems to be much better.

And if you think GT seems more impressive than RJ's flames that can destroy multiple cities, I can't say I agree with you. Avoiding RJ is much harder than GT and RJ is more destructive.

Gohan4585
June 13, 2010, 09:15 AM
If Yamamoto wasn't under hypnosis, would he have done what he did? No, he wouldn't. As a logical consequence, KS had an effect on what Yamamoto did. And IMO Aizen couldn't have defeated Shunsui, Shinji, Hitsugaya and Soifon without KS, KS provided him with the necessary opening to defeat them.

Let me give an example: Suppose that I pointed a gun at you and tied you up. You argue that the gun is irrelevant in your being tied up because I didn't use the gun to shoot at you, I only threatened to use it. Aizen was holding a gun when he was against Yamamoto, Aizen wasn't holding a gun when he was against Isshin, the presence of a gun changes everything and as long as there's a gun, the gun is relevant.



Godzen's attack was stronger than WW's but it did a considerable amount of damage to Isshin, WW's attacks did almost nothing to Yamamoto. Yamamoto withstood an attack which was strong enough to reduce an area many times bigger than KT to ashes, it took a much stronger attack to affect Yamamoto in the same way Isshin was affected. Yamamoto's endurance seems to be much better.


And if you think GT seems more impressive than RJ's flames that can destroy multiple cities, I can't say I agree with you. Avoiding RJ is much harder than GT and RJ is more destructive.

If Isshin can teach Ichigo to beat Godzen with the Final GT I dont think Yamamoto would be able to beat Isshin... But aside from that I think Yama would own once he shows his bankai.

Xsoteria
June 13, 2010, 12:08 PM
If Yamamoto wasn't under hypnosis, would he have done what he did? No, he wouldn't. As a logical consequence, KS had an effect on what Yamamoto did. And IMO Aizen couldn't have defeated Shunsui, Shinji, Hitsugaya and Soifon without KS, KS provided him with the necessary opening to defeat them.

Well, again, it only means that Yama would have perhaps used some other techniques rather than the self-destruct one, but it still doesn't affect the supposed fight here. He could have done something else, he could've also gone bankai, and Aizen could've also gone bankai - but then we would be in a completely metaphysical realm of maybes and would have to imagine what they would do. This is why I said that their arsenal would have to be the one they used so far. The arsenal used depended on the circumstances, of course, as it does with most fights, but that is, again, irrelevant for the purposes of this thread.

I also don't agree with the fact that he used KS to beat up the captains, since it's pretty obvious that he's a beast, and I think Kubo would at least give us a hint that KS helped him defeat them. Since he didn't that's really just an assumption with no real basis. Of course, you could be right I suppose, but right now I don't see any reason to believe that.


Godzen's attack was stronger than WW's but it did a considerable amount of damage to Isshin, WW's attacks did almost nothing to Yamamoto. Yamamoto withstood an attack which was strong enough to reduce an area many times bigger than KT to ashes, it took a much stronger attack to affect Yamamoto in the same way Isshin was affected. Yamamoto's endurance seems to be much better.

And if you think GT seems more impressive than RJ's flames that can destroy multiple cities, I can't say I agree with you. Avoiding RJ is much harder than GT and RJ is more destructive.

WW's attacks on Grandpa were considerably weaker than Aizen's and did considerably less damage. Aizen's attack on Isshin was considerably stronger than WW's and did considerably more damage.

So far, we can't really tell any difference between their endurance. But lets introduce your 3rd variable.

Yamamoto's own attack was perhaps the strongest and it knocked him out of the fight (killed him? Hopefully not). What does that change?

It just means that there needs to be something really powerful to knock the old man out. Since in this case, moderately powerful attack didn't really knock out Isshin, I would say that there needs to be something really powerful to knock him out, as well.

That sort of brings us to about the same estimation.

freshseth83
June 14, 2010, 05:11 PM
Here's what one punch does to possibly the strongest espada/arrancar besides Yammy- http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/394/05/ now if you continue to read that chapter, here's what Yama says to Aizen; http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/394/06/ you think you can strike me down with the sealing of Ryujin-Jakka? In other words, Yama is equally as great as the zampakuto he controls. Now, look at this page, http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/394/08/ that was a fist right to Aizen's face- seeing the hole that one punch did to WW with hiero, why would anyone think even Aizen could withstand a punch like that to the face? It would be a done deal right then and there, which is precisely why WW goes back in as fast as he can and rushes to save Aizen's ass/face.

Now Isshin is strong I'm sure, the crater he made with his GT was great and all, massively big, but compare it to this, http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/395/11/ which is a crater that Yama even covered up with his body, showing the power of Yama in relation to all of Ryujin-Jakka.

If there's more proof needed we can always go back to more of the Burnout Inferno chapters and see clear proof that even without Ryujin-Jakka, Yama could easily kill Aizen, even with a single punch if needed. The only reason Yama was preparing the 'suicide' move is because he'd be sure it would destroy Aizen out of existence. There is no way Isshin could stand up to Yama, but what amazes me is if Yama was going all out, like he was here, against Shunsui and Juushiro, how were they able to survive?

ninjaman
June 14, 2010, 05:20 PM
i Dont see ishin surviving a double bone.

freshseth83
June 14, 2010, 05:24 PM
Even this http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/395/16-17/ from a burnt Yama, was even bigger than the GT from Isshin. There's no doubt in my mind that Yama is the pinnacle of Shingami.

Xsoteria
June 14, 2010, 06:22 PM
Even this http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/395/16-17/ from a burnt Yama, was even bigger than the GT from Isshin. There's no doubt in my mind that Yama is the pinnacle of Shingami.

I'm not sure that the size of explosions is the best indicator of their damage, at least in this case. After the ridiculously huge explosion from Yama's kido, Aizen jumps out without even a decent tanning.

Now here comes Super Aizen, BLEEDING, with his head cracked open after the GT http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/406/05/

And I'm not sure how you guys can really scale up the GT, since it seems to me it really goes off the screen.

Either way I agree that double bone would most likely end the fight or at least bring it very near the end, but I still think that landing the hit on WW mindlessly charging and landing the hit on armed Isshin are two very different things. I doubt that Yama would decide to go unarmed anyway.

One of the many things that got me wondering on where are the actual limits of Yama's power was when WW stopped his sword with one hand and then proceeded to casually toss him aside. Now I know that the old man isn't really heavy so tossing him isn't much of a mystery, but stopping his sword?

It made me think that, while his strength is positively enormous (stopping Allon, stuff like that), it's more of a technique that blasted WW to pieces, rather than brute strenght.

I don't know. My impression so far is that Isshin is the only of the captains that could hope to stand up to the Captain Commander with his powers limited to the few moves he showed so far. (how Ukitake and Shunsui hoped to do that vs unbound grandpa, is beyond me)

Hystzen
June 14, 2010, 06:31 PM
isshin would not beat yamma..

that crazy old man is the 2nd strongest guy in Bleach so far under Godzen.

but now that kubo is making Isshin give Ichigo the skil to beat Godzen makes yo wonder how strong isshin is i say if he gives someone weak as ichigo who is unable to kill Gin but has a move that can end Godzen..then i assume Isshin would be strong as Yamma but yammas shikai is brutal and would beat Isshin easily

freshseth83
June 15, 2010, 03:52 AM
I'm not sure that the size of explosions is the best indicator of their damage, at least in this case. After the ridiculously huge explosion from Yama's kido, Aizen jumps out without even a decent tanning.

Now here comes Super Aizen, BLEEDING, with his head cracked open after the GT http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/406/05/

And I'm not sure how you guys can really scale up the GT, since it seems to me it really goes off the screen.

Either way I agree that double bone would most likely end the fight or at least bring it very near the end, but I still think that landing the hit on WW mindlessly charging and landing the hit on armed Isshin are two very different things. I doubt that Yama would decide to go unarmed anyway.

One of the many things that got me wondering on where are the actual limits of Yama's power was when WW stopped his sword with one hand and then proceeded to casually toss him aside. Now I know that the old man isn't really heavy so tossing him isn't much of a mystery, but stopping his sword?

It made me think that, while his strength is positively enormous (stopping Allon, stuff like that), it's more of a technique that blasted WW to pieces, rather than brute strenght.

I don't know. My impression so far is that Isshin is the only of the captains that could hope to stand up to the Captain Commander with his powers limited to the few moves he showed so far. (how Ukitake and Shunsui hoped to do that vs unbound grandpa, is beyond me)

Yama just had the flames removed from his sword, catching it isn't a big feat. You like to play up WW's abilities but then play down Yama's.

So getting punched abundantly by one of the strongest arrancar point blank isn't a sign of Yama's strength? Eating Aizen's sword right through the gut isn't a sign of his strength? Casting a #96 spell with a body that just covered up the most powerful zampakuto's explosion in existence isn't a sign of his strength?

Let's get the facts straight, no Shinigami has come close to yama within the last millennium in terms of strength, or power, or zampakuto. But you expect Isshin to be able to stand up to him by himself? No way. Shunsui and Juushiro were barely able to and they were his star students and considered by him to be the best shinigami he's heard of. I don't think Isshin could beat up on those two by themselves let alone together, then putting him up there with Yama? There's just a level that people are on but Yama's it is not.

Also, with the current Aizen, I say his reiatsu is hard to read because like Isshin said it's different, you have to be on the same type of understanding he is to know how to beat him. Ichigo understands that reiatsu because he had it. It doesn't mean he's unstopable. It just means he has a different type of power. Not Shinigami, not hollow, but Unique. Only Ichigo knows what it is, that's why Ichigo is the one who has to beat him now more than ever.

Xsoteria
June 15, 2010, 04:14 AM
^The sword stopping I mentioned to illustrate the potential strength lag. Getting punched and getting out relatively unharmed is not a feat of strength but of endurance. So is covering up the blast and shooting off that kido, as is the sword in the gut. There's no way around it, the old man can take a beating.

Yama is the most powerful one, but that means along all of his abilities, nowhere does it say that he is the number one in strength. Seeing as how we're not working here with all of his arsenal, we can't say no one would come close to his power. And that's why I suggested the fight. If yama went all out, I doubt there would be much to talk about.

As for Shunsui and Ukitake, well there's really not much to go by there, but I would say that he could take both of them individually.

Gran Maestro
June 15, 2010, 06:13 AM
One of the many things that got me wondering on where are the actual limits of Yama's power was when WW stopped his sword with one hand and then proceeded to casually toss him aside. Now I know that the old man isn't really heavy so tossing him isn't much of a mystery, but stopping his sword?

I think the explanation is very simple: Yamamoto didn't try to cut WW down, he tried to burn him down and after WW absorbed the flames, blocking the sword was a simple task for someone like him. WW blocked Yamamoto's punch with the same hand, your attack has to have great brute force to cut WW's hand. The hands of arrancars are resistant to physical damage, they have hierro and they focus their reiatsu on their hands to block attacks.


It made me think that, while his strength is positively enormous (stopping Allon, stuff like that), it's more of a technique that blasted WW to pieces, rather than brute strenght.

I don't think Yamamoto's technique works without sufficient brute strength/reiatsu. He would have hurt himself.

We probably didn't see Isshin's shikai yet and IMO claiming that a GT technique would be enough for Isshin to hold his own against the flames of most powerful zanpakuto which attacks everywhere is a bit wishful thinking. If Isshin can't catch Yamamoto off-guard, blocking/evading Isshin's GT is a fairly simple task for someone of Yamamoto's calibre and I doubt Isshin would find an opportunity to successfully use GT while he was trying to stay away from Yamamoto not to get incinerated. Even two Isshin's are not enough to defeat Yamamoto if GT is all Isshin will have in this fight.

shinsengumi
June 15, 2010, 07:11 AM
i believe yamamoto with RJ can face the SS captains all together at the same time and still can win (including isshin,urahara and yoruichi)
imo there is not much to discuss in this topic

Immo
June 15, 2010, 07:17 AM
Aizen stated that with fair fight Yama would win. Aizen had hougyoku inside himself then. Even GOD-longhairblackeye-Aizen would lose to Bankai Yama to be honest. Well, Isshin is powerfull, but GODaizen would kill him in an instant. Also, Isshin is tank type, and tanking fire is BAD. Yama is broken even without his zanpaktou, and i think even barehanded he would own Isshin badly.

Jackk
June 15, 2010, 04:49 PM
Even though I like Isshin more, I have to agree with the people in favor of Yama here.

At least from what we have seen so far from Isshin and Yama, it really isn't much of a contest... Yama has this... his Zanpakuto is just too powerful, heck even his bare hands are ridiculously strong.

http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/393/09/

http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/393/12-13/

http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/394/17/

http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/395/02/

Yama would be too much for Isshin imo.

freshseth83
June 16, 2010, 02:08 AM
i believe yamamoto with RJ can face the SS captains all together at the same time and still can win (including isshin,urahara and yoruichi)
imo there is not much to discuss in this topic

Not a very good benchmark IMO. I don't see the hype people give those three, to me their captains, all captains are strong.

But besides that, Yama put fire around Gin, Tousen, and Aizen. And they couldn't do a thing about it until WW came and Fura blew out the fire surrounding them, and the ice containing Harribel.

Rainl
June 21, 2010, 08:27 AM
That sort of brings us to about the same estimation.


It actually doesn't. You need to realize what it took to bring Yamamoto down. No one else has tanked anything even remotely close to what Yamamoto endured. Which was at least a city buster.

Simply put, Yamamoto wins. Isshin does not have the power to put Yamamoto down, at all.

Also, bringing up Isshin's GT is irrelevant, he only got that attack off due to Aizen being completely caught off guard by Yoruichi and Urahara. Unfortunately Yamamoto won't simply be sitting there and tanking attacks, even though based on feats he could easily do that as well.


Yama is the most powerful one, but that means along all of his abilities, nowhere does it say that he is the number one in strength.

Feats do. Which is what you usually go by.

Xsoteria
June 21, 2010, 09:07 AM
It actually doesn't. You need to realize what it took to bring Yamamoto down. No one else has tanked anything even remotely close to what Yamamoto endured. Which was at least a city buster.

Simply put, Yamamoto wins. Isshin does not have the power to put Yamamoto down, at all.

Also, bringing up Isshin's GT is irrelevant, he only got that attack off due to Aizen being completely caught off guard by Yoruichi and Urahara. Unfortunately Yamamoto won't simply be sitting there and tanking attacks, even though based on feats he could easily do that as well.



Feats do. Which is what you usually go by.

Yes Yama shot himself in the foot. All it took was a modified arrancar to bring him down. All the planning and experience and Aizen hardly needed to break a sweat. Isshin had a help of two captains distracting Aizen but Aizen was in his Godmode but then again Isshin inflicted a lot more damage than Yama. So, simply put, Isshin is stronger.

See, it's rather easy to make a case the way you did. I don't really mean what I said, but I still think that if there is anyone who demonstrated anything so far in terms of battle capability (out of the good guys) and showed that he could rival the limited arsenal Yama presented so far, it's Isshin.

Conan26
June 21, 2010, 09:28 AM
http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/393/18/

http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/394/06/

http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/394/07/

I think the links speak for themselves...Yamamoto wins.

Waking_Dreamer
June 21, 2010, 12:36 PM
See, it's rather easy to make a case the way you did. I don't really mean what I said, but I still think that if there is anyone who demonstrated anything so far in terms of battle capability (out of the good guys) and showed that he could rival the limited arsenal Yama presented so far, it's Isshin.

Are you saying Isshin's GT could compare to Yama-ji's city buster...?

Xsoteria
June 21, 2010, 12:45 PM
Are you saying Isshin's GT could compare to Yama-ji's city buster...?

You do realise the technique is suicidal? That he can't win using that?

Gran Maestro
June 21, 2010, 01:36 PM
Ennetsu Jigoku is not a suicidal technique, Yamamoto doesn't have to grab Isshin's arm to use the technique, Isshin doesn't have illusions that can misdirect Yamamoto. Is "Thousand Years' Ice Prison" a suicidal technique? If and only if Hitsugaya gets caught in his own ice prison. I don't think Yamamoto needs Ennetsu Jigoku to defeat Isshin, it would be overkill. RJ's flames would be enough to wear down Isshin, eventually killing him.

conn-man
June 21, 2010, 02:55 PM
yamamoto is still on a completly seperate level than anyone else is bleach, maybe aizen just joined him, but nobody else has shown a display of power like he has, not even close.

even aizen knew the only thing that could really damage yamamoto was a concentrated blast of his own power since its the only thing aizen could harness that was on the same level.

issin doesnt stand a chance, the getsuga tensho he showed was no where near as consistently and enourmously powerful as ennetsu jigoku.

Xsoteria
June 21, 2010, 02:59 PM
^EDIT: Aizen didn't make WW so that he would have a way to do damage to yamamoto (where did that come from), he did he would have a safe bypass of the old man's massive destructive power.

Ennetsu Jigoku is not a suicidal technique, Yamamoto doesn't have to grab Isshin's arm to use the technique, Isshin doesn't have illusions that can misdirect Yamamoto. Is "Thousand Years' Ice Prison" a suicidal technique? If and only if Hitsugaya gets caught in his own ice prison. I don't think Yamamoto needs Ennetsu Jigoku to defeat Isshin, it would be overkill. RJ's flames would be enough to wear down Isshin, eventually killing him.

Ennetsu Jigoku is a massive slow move, and unless Isshin was asleep or had his shunpo malfunctioning, he would not wait for the huge pillars to come crashing down on him.

conn-man
June 21, 2010, 03:10 PM
Ennetsu Jigoku is a massive slow move, and unless Isshin was asleep or had his shunpo malfunctioning, he would not wait for the huge pillars to come crashing down on him.

we never saw the pillars move so speed is still a mystery. also they are so gigantic that getting out of the way might be harder than your realizing. also also, i dotn think EJ is even necessary, http://beta.onemanga.com/Bleach/338/11/
http://beta.onemanga.com/Bleach/339/05-06/
http://beta.onemanga.com/Bleach/394/06/
something like these might be just fine.


also wonderweiss was designed to blow up after being beaten, aizen knew yama would sacrifice himself to protect the souls of the living. it was part of the plan man.

Xsoteria
June 21, 2010, 03:19 PM
Pillars are positively ENORMOUS and if he were to slam them into Isshin, or anyone for that matter, he would have to be very far away. And I think no one would just sit there waiting for Yama to move far enough. That is if they're somehow fast moving, fast enough for a captain level shinigami to not react to them, which I highly, highly doubt. :blink

EDIT: There is no way Aizen knew that Yama will use Ennetsu Jigoku and even then, Yama said that he would do no "protecting of the souls of the living" anyway.

conn-man
June 21, 2010, 03:23 PM
yamamoto is faster than shunsui and ukitake, he passed them up with out them even realizing it back in SS, i think yama could execute EJ while being distant enough. now reply to my other valid points!

Xsoteria
June 21, 2010, 03:43 PM
I'm sorry, what point other than blitz Ennetsu Jigoku and theory behind WW did you have?

conn-man
June 21, 2010, 03:54 PM
the ones about how yamamoto can take anyone else in bleach down with a single swords stroke, punch, or effortless explosion, and that includs issin. and for the record im no fanboy, im just really reading what kubo is telling us about his power, so its an unbiased opinion.

another thing to add to the list, yama got stabbed straight through the gut and it didnt seem to faze him.

Xsoteria
June 21, 2010, 04:14 PM
Well those points were addressed earlier in the thread I believe, so I will sum it up. Yama is a beast, he is known to tank through some crazy things, and to have killer unarmed techniques. While I think that in unarmed combat Isshin would get slaughtered, in swordsmanship he proved to be on the same foot as Aizen. So I don't think unarmed prowess would change much in this fight, as I doubt that Yama would choose to sheath his sword and fistfight Isshin.

I agree with you that Yama is portraied by the author as supreme to probably everyone, but that is only through his potential powers, which he has yet to show. That is the reason I made the fight limited to things shown so far. I don't think that Yama "obviously outclassess" Isshin in anything other than unarmed combat.

Isshin has obviously more endurance than other captains of Yoruichi and Urahara's level, and is proficient enough to fight Aizen successfully in a sword fight, something no one did so far. There is of course the ridiculous finger flick that sent Aizen flying through buildings and a monstrous Getsuga Tensho to match the (limited to the shown so far) RJ, which cracked open Godzen's head.

As I said, if there is anyone with enough display of power to fight Yama with a shred of hope, that would be Isshin.

Gran Maestro
June 21, 2010, 04:33 PM
Xsoteria, a simple sword fight defeats Isshin because being exposed to RJ's flames wears you down. You say "we didn't see enough from RJ", I think we saw everything necessary. Yamamoto releases his flames (http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/316/10/) and Isshin either tries to stay away or RJ gradually burns him down (http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/339/05-06/). Shunsui and Ukitake think so, RJ hurts (http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/316/11/). You're talking as if a sword fight favours Isshin, I don't think Isshin would like to engage in a sword fight against blazing inferno. Isshin's GT will never connect against Yamamoto because he won't have Urahara and Yoruichi to help him create an opening and he will be trying to protect himself against the flames. RJ burns, Isshin gets burned, I don't see a viable way for him to resist the flames.

Xsoteria
June 21, 2010, 04:48 PM
I agree that being exposed to RJ would definitely be ultimately Isshin's demise but I don't think that being exposed to the simply released RJ would instantly solve the fight, it just means that fighting Yama for a long time is a mistake. However, I think that someone with high durability could fight for a while and not get any damage from it.

Though that's a very good point, I must admit that I myself have forgotten the constant AoE burning effect. I'm not sure if it's a permanent attribute of shikai RJ since I don't remember seeing it burning constantly in FKT fights?

En Yang Ji
June 21, 2010, 05:00 PM
I don't think being exposed to RJ flames would hurt Isshin. Tousen, Gin and Aizen were in Yama's fire prison for a long time and none of them were damaged by it.

conn-man
June 21, 2010, 05:05 PM
I don't think being exposed to RJ flames would hurt Isshin. Tousen, Gin and Aizen were in Yama's fire prison for a long time and none of them were damaged by it.

not the best example dude, i think it was apparent that they wernt being attacked by the flames, yama wasnt even in control of the fire prison, it was on autopilot the whole time.

Gran Maestro
June 21, 2010, 05:10 PM
I agree that being exposed to RJ would definitely be ultimately Isshin's demise but I don't think that being exposed to the simply released RJ would instantly solve the fight, it just means that fighting Yama for a long time is a mistake. However, I think that someone with high durability could fight for a while and not get any damage from it.

Though that's a very good point, I must admit that I myself have forgotten the constant AoE burning effect. I'm not sure if it's a permanent attribute of shikai RJ since I don't remember seeing it burning constantly in FKT fights?

We saw the burning effect (http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/156/06-07/) against Shunsui and Ukitake in SS arc, Yamamoto didn't need it in FKT fights because he incinerated Allon and the fraccions instantly and he went straight for the kill against Aizen. As you say, someone like Isshin can fight for a while, I didn't mean to say he gets burned instantly but Isshin keeps getting damage as long as he is near Yamamoto and at some point he can no longer continue the fight because of accumulated damage.

En Yang Ji
June 21, 2010, 05:11 PM
Both Shunsui and Ukitake looked fine after fighting Yama for a long time: (http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/177/20/)

conn-man
June 21, 2010, 05:15 PM
Both Shunsui and Ukitake looked fine after fighting Yama for a long time: (http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/177/20/)

because he still loved them:)

Gran Maestro
June 21, 2010, 05:22 PM
Both Shunsui and Ukitake looked fine after fighting Yama for a long time: (http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/177/20/)

Yamamoto said if Shunsui and Ukitake hadn't released their shikai, they would have been reduced to ashes without being able to put up any resistance:

http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/156/10/

Shunsui and Ukitake's shikai abilities offer some resistance but still they were getting damage as can be seen at the end of the fight:

http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/172/12/

The manga made it clear, Shunsui and Ukitake would have lost, eventually. They were lucky that the fight ended before the damage went past a certain point.

Exodi
June 21, 2010, 08:53 PM
Frankly, I'm surprised there's still enough to argue that Isshin could take on Yamamoto. Based on what has been shown and the evidence people have provided, I still fail to see how Isshin could stand up to Yamamoto.

In Isshin's case, all we can go off of is:
1. Some combat with Aizen before (and during) Deity-mode
2. A Getsuga Tenshou

From Yamamoto we've seen:
1. Taking on two other Captains at the same time
2. Destroying a giant chimera without breaking a sweat
3. Toasting 3 arrancar, at the same time, with just one swing
4. Destroying another (probably more powerful) arrancar with his bare hands
5. Ennetsu Jigoku
6. the sacrificial kidou he performed

Even without considering the circumstances behind each incident, Yamamoto's list is longer. This means that we've seen more from him (obviously), and since we've seen more, by DEFAULT one has to say that he is much better than Isshin. If you look at it from the viewpoint of someone who doesn't read the manga, I believe you'd say the same.

Now...you could look at what Isshin did and perhaps see that as more impressive as all of the things we've seen from Yamamoto. Yes, his Getsuga Tenshou was big (though MUCH smaller than Yamamoto's Ennetsu Jigoku), and yes he put a crack in Aizen's semi-demi-god mode. I still fail to see how any of that really compares to Yamamoto's feats.

As for Yamamoto's flame fortress technique he used to keep Aizen, Gin and Tousen out of the fight for a while.....
1. The fire never really touched them. Although, didn't Gin comment on how hot it was? I bet if someone had touched the fire, they would've been burned.
2. The technique is obviously supposed to keep people from escaping the fire. So, the people inside naturally are not going to touch it, thus resulting in them not being burned.
3. Aizen didn't even try to escape it. Yamamoto said even Aizen couldn't escape it.
Enough said.

Furthermore, like someone said, Yamamoto is in a class separate from everyone else. Honestly, I think he could comfortably one-shot each and every Captain aside from Shunsui and Ukitake.

-edit-
Even Yamamoto's badass appearance was bigger than Isshin's Getsuga. LOL:
http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/393/04/

hajialibaig
June 22, 2010, 12:08 AM
um based on what i read/saw in the manga, yamamoto would eat isshin for breakfast

En Yang Ji
June 22, 2010, 10:59 AM
- My point is just being around RJ's flames isn't likely going to damage Isshin.

- I don't believe Yama is that strong. I have a hard time believeing Aizen, after asbsorbing the HG, is at least a level lower than Yama or lower at all.

kkck
June 22, 2010, 11:45 AM
Yamamoto said if Shunsui and Ukitake hadn't released their shikai, they would have been reduced to ashes without being able to put up any resistance:

http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/156/10/

Shunsui and Ukitake's shikai abilities offer some resistance but still they were getting damage as can be seen at the end of the fight:

http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/172/12/

The manga made it clear, Shunsui and Ukitake would have lost, eventually. They were lucky that the fight ended before the damage went past a certain point.

I don't think that is the correct interpratation of those lines. What I got from that is that was basically that shunsui and ukitake should release their swords and fight with everything they've got otherwise yama would indeed win without them being able to fight back. Basically yama with his special abilities would obliterate shunsui and ukitake without special abilities but with them they could at least fight back. Saying yamamoto meant for them to have protective abilities is a huge stretch of what yama said IMO considering how general the statement was.

I would also question how much protection their zampakuto provide to ukitake and shunsui. KK provides games which are not meant to protect shunsui from damage, they merely set rules which control damage output towards the enemy. In that sense, the games are not meant to be defensive but rather VERY offensive. It's not like shunsui's damage output outside of his turn can be high nor his attacks will result in unavoidable death for the enemy while in his turn(outside of his turn he is extremely vulnerable to damage and damage output to some extent depends on a number of things which to a great extent are outside of shunsui or his enemies scope of control). Ukitake is capable of absorbing energy attacks and redirecting them but that does not mean his zampakuto provides actual protection or invulnerability to attacks, it simply means whatever power is absorbed will be redirected while whatever is not absorbed will be trouble for him if he gets hit. Its not like getting hit results in no damage for him.

I do disagree on the notion that RJ mere release would either provide any form of protection for yamamoto or abliterate enemies. Of course, fodder would go through that (fraccion, VCs, probably uryu and chad for instance) but captain level enemies or above should be fine considering what we have seen. Seriously, if yamamoto had so much as a chance of one shooting aizen (and by extention tousen and gin) why would he bother sealing them? If yamamoto's very release could so much as scratch someone, why not use his power to abliterate aizen while inside the fire prison? If yamamoto could one shot strong enemies like that, why would he simply not blast aizen to hell with RJ once he got a hold of him(he did not even swing the thing at aizen) instead of a kamikaze attack? For someone who allegedly has the power to easily obliterate anyone and anything with the mere release of his sword (let alone the very consideration of an attack), the guy seems to not even be making a vague attempt to attack.

At most yamamoto's release would make an enemy sweat but thats about it (unless we are dealing with someone beneath the captain class). Ishin in particular has shown to be more than drastically above the captain class considering he tool aizens attacks just the same as urahara and yoruichi and can still stand and actually matched pre-godlike aizen in a fight. I doubt ishin of all people would have any trouble at all standing next to yama.

Xsoteria
June 22, 2010, 11:48 AM
- My point is just being around RJ's flames isn't likely going to damage Isshin.

- I don't believe Yama is that strong. I have a hard time believeing Aizen, after asbsorbing the HG, is at least a level lower than Yama or lower at all.

I always thought that Aizen and Yamamoto were both on the same level, as in they reached the limits of their Shinigami powers.

If you think of their level in terms of a class on its own, it's easy to make the distinction between their two types or battle styles if you will. Yama is obviously the offensive, opponent crushing type. Aizen on the other hand, is more of a trickster, or a spellcaster type (who played dota, I would point the difference between agi and int heroes), relying on his abilities rather than his physical prowess. Still, having reached his limit as a shinigami, his physical prowess is immensly more powerful when compared to those who haven't gotten to their respective limit (their max level), and that is why I think Aizen was able to headbutt all the captains the way he did. It's simply a whole different scale of power he and Yama are at.

So I suppose that I'm saying that I don't think Aizen was a lower level than Yama in the first place, since Aizen himself said that he reached the shinigami limit. Yama just has reached his limit in a way that he ended with greater offensive power as opposed to Aizen who invested in slightly different assets during his development. Still, I don't think that there is a vast difference between their power.

Isshin obviously can fight on the level of a maxed out shinigami, something no other captain presented so far, and this is the reason behind the making of this thread.

Gran Maestro
June 22, 2010, 01:09 PM
Saying yamamoto meant for them to have protective abilities is a huge stretch of what yama said IMO considering how general the statement was.

I believe color game can be used defensively by selecting useless colors and Ukitake's shikai may absorb and redirect flames to some extent, this is protection. I won't elaborate, it's off-topic.


I do disagree on the notion that RJ mere release would either provide any form of protection for yamamoto or abliterate enemies. Of course, fodder would go through that (fraccion, VCs, probably uryu and chad for instance) but captain level enemies or above should be fine considering what we have seen. Seriously, if yamamoto had so much as a chance of one shooting aizen (and by extention tousen and gin) why would he bother sealing them? If yamamoto's very release could so much as scratch someone, why not use his power to abliterate aizen while inside the fire prison? If yamamoto could one shot strong enemies like that, why would he simply not blast aizen to hell with RJ once he got a hold of him(he did not even swing the thing at aizen) instead of a kamikaze attack? For someone who allegedly has the power to easily obliterate anyone and anything with the mere release of his sword (let alone the very consideration of an attack), the guy seems to not even be making a vague attempt to attack.

At most yamamoto's attack would make an enemy sweat but thats about it (unless we are dealing with someone beneath the captain class). Ishin in particular has shown to be more than drastically above the captain class considering he tool aizens attacks just the same as urahara and yoruichi and can still stand and actually matched pre-godlike aizen in a fight. I doubt ishin of all people would have any trouble at all standing next to yama.

I guess you didn't read my posts carefully, when did I say "Yamamoto can one-shot a strong person by waving his sword?" RJ's flames can wear down a strong opponent and if this person keeps fighting Yamamoto, he gets defeated because the flames gradually weaken him. (Assuming he survives long enough by dodging Yamamoto's other attacks)

Saying "At most yamamoto's attack would make an enemy sweat" must be a joke, are you kidding me? Did you notice Shunsui and Ukitake ducked RJ's flames (http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/316/11/)? I don't think they were just afraid of sweating. These flames (http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/316/10/) hurt anybody, we're not talking about summer weather here, we're talking about the zanpakuto with highest attack power. The flames killed Allon and the fraccions instantly, I don't even understand what you were thinking when you said "these flames make the enemy sweat at most".

Theoretically Yamamoto could have killed Aizen, Gin and Tousen by using flames of hell technique when they were in fire prison. But then Aizen could have summoned WW to negate the flames, Kubo saved WW surprise for later. Yamamoto didn't burn down Aizen without using a technique because it would have taken some time which Aizen could have used to free himself by using his illusions. And it wouldn't have worked because hougyoku was continuously healing Aizen. Yes, Yamamoto didn't know it but Kubo knew it and Kubo is writing this story.

Bottom line is Yamamoto's flames are a force to be reckoned with. Only someone who has overwhelming reiatsu compared to Yamamoto can withstand the flames without taking damage but since no such person exists, I don't recommend anyone to stay long near Yamamoto, it's hazardous to health. (WW's fire negation is a different story.)

kkck
June 22, 2010, 02:24 PM
I believe color game can be used defensively by selecting useless colors and Ukitake's shikai may absorb and redirect flames to some extent, this is protection. I won't elaborate, it's off-topic.

Selecting useless colors is absurd though. Why would shunsui choose a color which can cause the enemy no damage? At least pick a color which he is not wearing.... Using KK to defend is a very poor choice, a waste of shunsui's turn. I also doubt KK can provide utter invulnerability.


I guess you didn't read my posts carefully, when did I say "Yamamoto can one-shot a strong person by waving his sword?" RJ's flames can wear down a strong opponent and if this person keeps fighting Yamamoto, he gets defeated because the flames gradually weaken him. (Assuming he survives long enough by dodging Yamamoto's other attacks)

Certainly the heat could be an issue but not for people with a decent bit of reiatsu. Characters in bleach can survive stabs and slashes in the gut, I doutb dehidratation and heat would cause them to collapse anywhere in the short run. Not to mention the flames of RJ are flames brought by reiatsu, people with strong enough reiatsu would not be affected by the heat alone.


Saying "At most yamamoto's attack would make an enemy sweat" must be a joke, are you kidding me? Did you notice Shunsui and Ukitake ducked RJ's flames (http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/316/11/)? I don't think they were just afraid of sweating. These flames (http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/316/10/) hurt anybody, we're not talking about summer weather here, we're talking about the zanpakuto with highest attack power. The flames killed Allon and the fraccions instantly, I don't even understand what you were thinking when you said "these flames make the enemy sweat at most".
Thats a typo on my part, I meant release.


Theoretically Yamamoto could have killed Aizen, Gin and Tousen by using flames of hell technique when they were in fire prison. But then Aizen could have summoned WW to negate the flames, Kubo saved WW surprise for later. Yamamoto didn't burn down Aizen without using a technique because it would have taken some time which Aizen could have used to free himself by using his illusions. And it wouldn't have worked because hougyoku was continuously healing Aizen. Yes, Yamamoto didn't know it but Kubo knew it and Kubo is writing this story.

Bottom line is Yamamoto's flames are a force to be reckoned with. Only someone who has overwhelming reiatsu compared to Yamamoto can withstand the flames without taking damage but since no such person exists, I don't recommend anyone to stay long near Yamamoto, it's hazardous to health. (WW's fire negation is a different story.)


I don't see what the difference between using a special technique and not using one would be once yama got a hold of aizens arm in the situation where he is as overly powerful as people make him out to be. Yamamoto had aizen, aizen could not run and he was not about to get any further from aizen as far as yamamoto knew. When yamamoto caught aizen he basically had a free shot of the guy to punch, burn and set on fire anything he wanted. Up to this point WW's existence is less than irrelevant, yamamoto acted not having a clue of what WW could do.

Gran Maestro
June 22, 2010, 03:20 PM
Selecting useless colors is absurd though. Why would shunsui choose a color which can cause the enemy no damage? At least pick a color which he is not wearing.... Using KK to defend is a very poor choice, a waste of shunsui's turn. I also doubt KK can provide utter invulnerability.

KK doesn't provide utter invulnerability, we've already discussed it in nature of KK thread. When I say useless color, I mean any color which Shunsui doesn't have on him like "grey" (http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/374/09/). If you are fighting a superior opponent and you are in desperate need to buy time, KK can be used effectively as a defensive weapon but of course it can't protect Shunsui forever.


Certainly the heat could be an issue but not for people with a decent bit of reiatsu. Characters in bleach can survive stabs and slashes in the gut, I doutb dehidratation and heat would cause them to collapse anywhere in the short run. Not to mention the flames of RJ are flames brought by reiatsu, people with strong enough reiatsu would not be affected by the heat alone.

Heat is not the only issue, fire itself is a issue. Yamamoto's fire burns everything, it can reduce everything to ashes (http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/156/08/). Only people who are overwhelmingly stronger than Yamamoto would not be affected by the flames, only overwhelming reiatsu (or a special ability) negates abilities. As long as Yamamoto's opponent is exposed to flames, he is in danger. We know people who get stabbed and survive but I don't think we know people who is immune to damage from stabs. Getting stabbed has a toll on you, getting burned has a greater toll on you.


I don't see what the difference between using a special technique and not using one would be once yama got a hold of aizens arm in the situation where he is as overly powerful as people make him out to be. Yamamoto had aizen, aizen could not run and he was not about to get any further from aizen as far as yamamoto knew. When yamamoto caught aizen he basically had a free shot of the guy to punch, burn and set on fire anything he wanted. Up to this point WW's existence is less than irrelevant, yamamoto acted not having a clue of what WW could do.

LOL many people argue Yamamoto could one-bone Aizen's head and everything would be over and they're kinda right. Yamamoto made Aizen's arm bleed by just squeezing it, I can't imagine what would happen if he actually punched Aizen. Since I always try to make most sense out of manga, the most reasonable explanation of Yamamoto's actions is that he thought Aizen could have created an illusion of his dead body if he somehow survived. Yamamoto could feel the reiatsu of Aizen's sword inside his stomach but everything outside was untrustable from Yamamoto's POV and he opted for blowing up whole place to ensure Aizen's death.

These are what Kubo had in mind:

1) I have to show Yamamoto's flames of hell technique.

2) I have to make sure Yamamoto's attack will connect.

3) I have to make WW absorb the flames of technique.

The result is chapter 393 of Bleach. Even though it doesn't make good sense, this is the best scenario Kubo could come up with.

kkck
June 22, 2010, 03:38 PM
KK doesn't provide utter invulnerability, we've already discussed it in nature of KK thread. When I say useless color, I mean any color which Shunsui doesn't have on him like "grey" (http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/374/09/). If you are fighting a superior opponent and you are in desperate need to buy time, KK can be used effectively as a defensive weapon but of course it can't protect Shunsui forever.
I don't see how that is a smart move nor how that is going into the defensive.... Calling a riskless when the contrary is possible color means shunsui losses a chance to cause damage -and end the fight- while in turn the enemy gets a turn and gets a chance to deal damage. You could indeed prolong the length of a fight that way but only by taking a little damage each turn and also not causing much of it. Seems like a poor defense, I don't think it is appropriate to call it a defensive move. Even the circumstances under which that'd be necessary are more than severely limited, it'd be something extremely punctual.



Heat is not the only issue, fire itself is a issue. Yamamoto's fire burns everything, it can reduce everything to ashes (http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/156/08/). Only people who are overwhelmingly stronger than Yamamoto would not be affected by the flames, only overwhelming reiatsu (or a special ability) negates abilities. As long as Yamamoto's opponent is exposed to flames, he is in danger. We know people who get stabbed and survive but I don't think we know people who is immune to damage from stabs. Getting stabbed has a toll on you, getting burned has a greater toll on you.

I actually thought the heat was a greater issue than the fire itself. I don't think the fire from just releasing RJ would actually cause damage, reiatsu alone could counter than much IMO(that is not to say reaitsu along would counter an actual attack from yama). That fire heating the air around is what actually would cause the enemy to sweat and by extention cause exhaustion eventually(I don't think it'd be enough to actually kill someone within the short run which is the timespam fights usually take)


LOL many people argue Yamamoto could one-bone Aizen's head and everything would be over and they're kinda right. Yamamoto made Aizen's arm bleed by just squeezing it, I can't imagine what would happen if he actually punched Aizen. Since I always try to make most sense out of manga, the most reasonable explanation of Yamamoto's actions is that he thought Aizen could have created an illusion of his dead body if he somehow survived. Yamamoto could feel the reiatsu of Aizen's sword inside his stomach but everything outside was untrustable from Yamamoto's POV and he opted for blowing up whole place to ensure Aizen's death.

These are what Kubo had in mind:

1) I have to show Yamamoto's flames of hell technique.

2) I have to make sure Yamamoto's attack will connect.

3) I have to make WW absorb the flames of technique.

The result is chapter 393 of Bleach. Even though it doesn't make good sense, this is the best scenario Kubo could come up with.

Well, the manga implied yamamoto was already 100% sure he caught aizen and that is confirmed by the fact yamamoto was about to use a suicidal technique. If there were doubts about that then the most logical thing to do was to stab aizen in the head to see what happens. In case that was indeed aizen, then the stab in the head would basically end the fight just as much as the flames of hell would. On the other hand, if yama thought aizen could survive, one-bone (two bones would be impossible since a hand is busy holding aizen) or the full extent of whatever attack RJ could use casually then it'd make sense for him to use a massively overpowered kamikaze attack. Aizen did tank through a sacrifical 90th level kido (he was hurt but overall kept his limbs) so perhaps aizen could indeed survive the attacks yamamoto can use casually with RJ.

Gran Maestro
June 22, 2010, 04:28 PM
I don't see how that is a smart move nor how that is going into the defensive.... Calling a riskless when the contrary is possible color means shunsui losses a chance to cause damage -and end the fight- while in turn the enemy gets a turn and gets a chance to deal damage. You could indeed prolong the length of a fight that way but only by taking a little damage each turn and also not causing much of it. Seems like a poor defense, I don't think it is appropriate to call it a defensive move. Even the circumstances under which that'd be necessary are more than severely limited, it'd be something extremely punctual.

I think if you were Shunsui going against Yamamoto, you would do your best to ensure you survive as long as possible because winning is obviously out of question. :)


I actually thought the heat was a greater issue than the fire itself. I don't think the fire from just releasing RJ would actually cause damage, reiatsu alone could counter than much IMO(that is not to say reaitsu along would counter an actual attack from yama). That fire heating the air around is what actually would cause the enemy to sweat and by extention cause exhaustion eventually(I don't think it'd be enough to actually kill someone within the short run which is the timespam fights usually take)

Don't you think every time Yamamoto waves his sword he can burn whatever he waves his sword at (http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/339/05-06/)? Yes, people with strong reiatsu don't die instantly but nevertheless they gradually get burned. Yamamoto can generate fire as long as he wishes, he can do that (http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/316/10/) any time, not only when he releases.


Well, the manga implied yamamoto was already 100% sure he caught aizen and that is confirmed by the fact yamamoto was about to use a suicidal technique. If there were doubts about that then the most logical thing to do was to stab aizen in the head to see what happens. In case that was indeed aizen, then the stab in the head would basically end the fight just as much as the flames of hell would. On the other hand, if yama thought aizen could survive, one-bone (two bones would be impossible since a hand is busy holding aizen) or the full extent of whatever attack RJ could use casually then it'd make sense for him to use a massively overpowered kamikaze attack. Aizen did tank through a sacrifical 90th level kido (he was hurt but overall kept his limbs) so perhaps aizen could indeed survive the attacks yamamoto can use casually with RJ.

Yamamoto could have stabbed Aizen in the head/throat or cut his head off in a worst case scenario, nobody survives that. Yamamoto wasn't sure his attack would connect, otherwise a mass suicide technique would be an absurd choice. Yamamoto most likely thought Aizen could somehow misdirect him using his illusions and survive, he didn't take any risks. The problem wasn't Aizen's extreme durability that would let him tank any lesser attack from Yamamoto, it was Yamamoto's disbelief/doubt about what he was seeing.

kkck
June 22, 2010, 04:56 PM
I think if you were Shunsui going against Yamamoto, you would do your best to ensure you survive as long as possible because winning is obviously out of question. :)
Not really the way I would personally react lol. I'd rather hope for a miracle and end the fight as soon as possible. Since the odds of winning are somewhere between low and non existent, I'd rather hope to end things one way or another as soon as possible (basically, I think among the poor choices shunsui can make (since going against yamamoto is a poor choice that can only result in further poor choices) the best one would be to scream BLACK and hope to finish the fight right then and there). Whats the point of prolonging a fight against someone far more skilled than you if you are just gonna get killed. Now, even prolonging a fight against someone of your skill or a little less is a bad idea provided there are no external factors to the fight. The longer the fight goes, the greater the risk basically...




Don't you think every time Yamamoto waves his sword he can burn whatever he waves his sword at (http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/339/05-06/)? Yes, people with strong reiatsu don't die instantly but nevertheless they gradually get burned. Yamamoto can generate fire as long as he wishes, he can do that (http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/316/10/) any time, not only when he releases.
This is bleach so not necessarily. Logic would tell us shunsui, ukitake and aizen would haave been on fire merely from being near yama, let alone receiving his attack. Then again, that did not happen in the least, none of them were incinerated the moment yama released his zampakuto and from the looks of it none of them even got their cloths caught on fire nor even a first degree burn. Aizen was not even sweating from being like a foot away from RJ.....




Yamamoto could have stabbed Aizen in the head/throat or cut his head off in a worst case scenario, nobody survives that. Yamamoto wasn't sure his attack would connect, otherwise a mass suicide technique would be an absurd choice. Yamamoto most likely thought Aizen could somehow misdirect him using his illusions and survive, he didn't take any risks. The problem wasn't Aizen's extreme durability that would let him tank any lesser attack from Yamamoto, it was Yamamoto's disbelief/doubt about what he was seeing.
If aizen had any doubt about catching aizen then a kamikaze move is absurd. If yamamoto is merely 99.99999% sure about catching aizen then the kamikaze move is a poor choice because that incredibly small margin could kill yama and all the other captains while not even gracing aizen (who would simply conveniently shunpo out of the way). Basically, yamamoto could only pull his move when he had 100% certainty or at least believe he was not going to be any more certain than what he was. Now, if yama is as stronger than aizen as people think and he has certainty that he has succesfully caught aizen, why a kamikaze move? If yama failed to catch aizen then a kamikaze move is evidently a poor choice. If he did in fact caught aizen then yamamoto has the choice of attacking however he pleases or using a kamikaze attack. Now, why in the world would yamamoto choose a kamikaze attack if he has certainty of having aizen under his grasp? Aizen does not seem to be about to go anywhere due to being caught and his zampakuto is conveniently stuck in yama's gut. The first reason to choose a kamikaze attack would be your ideas (and apparently that of at least half the bleach readers) where yamamoto got a huge surge of senility, suicidal tendencies, pms and an overly absurd surge of PIS so he chose to end everything with a kamikaze attack even though he could have just as easily stabbed aizen in the head and reduce the guy to ashes without the flames of hell. Second choice is that yamamoto even though he had certainty of having aizen under his grasp thought his regular zampakuto attacks would not work or perhaps let him open so he choose to go to a move which would kill aizen for sure. I'd personally lean towards the option where no PIS (let alone suicidal tendencies, PMS, and senility-since he apparently forgot he had RJ- ) come into play.


Considering ishin even bested aizen -no illusion apparently though- I'd think this would be a damn good fight. Ishin's shikai GT seems absurdly powerful, perhaps it could even help him counter a few of yama's attacks....

Gran Maestro
June 22, 2010, 06:05 PM
This is bleach so not necessarily. Logic would tell us shunsui, ukitake and aizen would haave been on fire merely from being near yama, let alone receiving his attack. Then again, that did not happen in the least, none of them were incinerated the moment yama released his zampakuto and from the looks of it none of them even got their cloths caught on fire nor even a first degree burn. Aizen was not even sweating from being like a foot away from RJ.....

If Yamamoto doesn't attack Shunsui, Ukitake or Aizen with fire, they don't get burned, do they? Yamamoto has the option to withhold his fire. We know that Yamamoto didn't attack Aizen directly by using fire and we don't know what happened in SS arc fight. Perhaps Yamamoto was cautious when using his fire against Shunsui and Ukitake due to Ukitake's shikai ability.


If aizen had any doubt about catching aizen then a kamikaze move is absurd. If yamamoto is merely 99.99999% sure about catching aizen then the kamikaze move is a poor choice because that incredibly small margin could kill yama and all the other captains while not even gracing aizen (who would simply conveniently shunpo out of the way). Basically, yamamoto could only pull his move when he had 100% certainty or at least believe he was not going to be any more certain than what he was. Now, if yama is as stronger than aizen as people think and he has certainty that he has succesfully caught aizen, why a kamikaze move? If yama failed to catch aizen then a kamikaze move is evidently a poor choice. If he did in fact caught aizen then yamamoto has the choice of attacking however he pleases or using a kamikaze attack. Now, why in the world would yamamoto choose a kamikaze attack if he has certainty of having aizen under his grasp? Aizen does not seem to be about to go anywhere due to being caught and his zampakuto is conveniently stuck in yama's gut. The first reason to choose a kamikaze attack would be your ideas (and apparently that of at least half the bleach readers) where yamamoto got a huge surge of senility, suicidal tendencies, pms and an overly absurd surge of PIS so he chose to end everything with a kamikaze attack even though he could have just as easily stabbed aizen in the head and reduce the guy to ashes without the flames of hell. Second choice is that yamamoto even though he had certainty of having aizen under his grasp thought his regular zampakuto attacks would not work or perhaps let him open so he choose to go to a move which would kill aizen for sure. I'd personally lean towards the option where no PIS (let alone suicidal tendencies, PMS, and senility-since he apparently forgot he had RJ- ) come into play.

Let's make something clear: Yamamoto is strong enough to stab his sword in Aizen's head, I mean we don't have something like this:

http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/105/04/

So why didn't Yamamoto do that and kill Aizen?

Either PIS or he thought Aizen could use his illusions to escape. If you agree that Aizen could use his illusions to escape, what exactly is your point? Why do you question RJ's ability to harm Aizen in a position where Yamamoto doesn't even need to release his sword to stab Aizen in the head and kill him?


Considering ishin even bested aizen -no illusion apparently though- I'd think this would be a damn good fight. Ishin's shikai GT seems absurdly powerful, perhaps it could even help him counter a few of yama's attacks....

This is a damn good fight if we assume RJ is a useless zanpakuto with no ability that can be useful against any captain whatsoever. This is the impression I get from some comments. If people come to their senses and actually realize what "strongest zanpakuto with highest attack power which reduces everything to ashes" means, the rest is no-brainer.

kkck
June 22, 2010, 06:22 PM
How would the illusion help aizen escape yama's grip? Even if aizen did use an illusion, provided yama does not let go aizen is not really going anywhere. I would think aizen's best chance of escaping is to attack aizen with kido, the illusion won't really help provided yama retains his focus and realize about the illusion.

When did I say RJ was an useless zampakuto? So even considering the notion a zampakuto could help protect oneself from RJ's attack makes RJ useless(under this assumption RJ would long be the stupidest most worthless thing in bleach since don kanonji and dodonchaka since kyoraku and ukitake actually survived a fight against yama)?

Gran Maestro
June 22, 2010, 06:41 PM
How would the illusion help aizen escape yama's grip? Even if aizen did use an illusion, provided yama does not let go aizen is not really going anywhere. I would think aizen's best chance of escaping is to attack aizen with kido, the illusion won't really help provided yama retains his focus and realize about the illusion.

But this is what the manga says. How can you question RJ's ability (or lack thereof) to burn down Aizen if Yamamoto didn't even try to burn down Aizen with ordinary flames for the same reason why he didn't stab his sword in Aizen's head? Yamamoto thought Aizen would have tricked him into thinking he died, he tried an unorthodox method to ensure Aizen's death.


When did I say RJ was an useless zampakuto? So even considering the notion a zampakuto could help protect oneself from RJ's attack makes RJ useless(under this assumption RJ would long be the stupidest most worthless thing in bleach since don kanonji and dodonchaka since kyoraku and ukitake actually survived a fight against yama)?

You implied RJ was a useless zanpakuto. Can you explain me the difference between fighting with RJ and fighting without RJ against a captain-class opponent? Just heat that can make someone sweat, big deal. You're considering the notion of completely nullifying RJ's flames as if such a thing is possible without overpowering Yamamoto's reiatsu. If Yamamoto waves his sword at you and sends fire, you take damage.

Barragan's respira ages everything it touches, even strong captains, I guess you have no problem with that but when somebody says Yamamoto's fire (which originates from RJ which is the strongest zanpakuto in existence) may gradually burn his opponents, you seem to be in disbelief. Very confusing.

kkck
June 22, 2010, 07:03 PM
But this is what the manga says. How can you question RJ's ability (or lack thereof) to burn down Aizen if Yamamoto didn't even try to burn down Aizen with ordinary flames for the same reason why he didn't stab his sword in Aizen's head? Yamamoto thought Aizen would have tricked him into thinking he died, he tried an unorthodox method to ensure Aizen's death.
What exactly is it that the manga says? I don't question RJ ability to attack, simply I don't think yama thought his regular RJ would have necessarily done the job against aizen hence why he took the time to prepare an attack as overpowered as the flames of hell. Yamamoto was using the reiatsu released by KS in his gut to tell whether he caught the real aizen, in that sense, I don't think an illusion would help aizen to escape. Yamamoto had no knowledge whatsoever about the hyogyoku or its abilities, I doubt he would have considered such scenarios when he had a hold of aizen. In that sense, as far as yamamoto was concerned aizen could be killed in the exact same way any other shinigami, yet still of attacking with his sword he went for a suicidal attack.



You implied RJ was a useless zanpakuto. Can you explain me the difference between fighting with RJ and fighting without RJ against a captain-class opponent? Just heat that can make someone sweat, big deal. You're considering the notion of completely nullifying RJ's flames as if such a thing is possible without overpowering Yamamoto's reiatsu. If Yamamoto waves his sword at you and sends fire, you take damage.
Ok, what in fucks sake are you talking about lol? I did not say RJ is a zampakuto that just makes you sweat. I said I was against the notion that the very release of RJ was something which would hurt strong enemies. Basically this (http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/156/06-07/) and this (http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/393/04/) is not enough to cause significant damage to strong enemies, at most a sweat(unless the enemy is question is weak enough to not be able to take that although IMO that would be someone beneath the captain class). Now, I do think an actual attack from RJ can basically reduce the enemy to ashes, carbonize them to the bone. That said, a strong enough enemy won't necessarily be instantly burned to death. At this particular case I don't think ishin or aizen are that far off from yama's level.

Barragan's respira ages everything it touches, even strong captains, I guess you have no problem with that but when somebody says Yamamoto's fire (which originates from RJ which is the strongest zanpakuto in existence) may gradually burn his opponents, you seem to be in disbelief. Very confusing.
How is a comparison between fire and time relevant? I don't think it is appropriate to compare the two of them....

Gran Maestro
June 22, 2010, 08:06 PM
What exactly is it that the manga says? I don't question RJ ability to attack, simply I don't think yama thought his regular RJ would have necessarily done the job against aizen hence why he took the time to prepare an attack as overpowered as the flames of hell. Yamamoto was using the reiatsu released by KS in his gut to tell whether he caught the real aizen, in that sense, I don't think an illusion would help aizen to escape. Yamamoto had no knowledge whatsoever about the hyogyoku or its abilities, I doubt he would have considered such scenarios when he had a hold of aizen. In that sense, as far as yamamoto was concerned aizen could be killed in the exact same way any other shinigami, yet still of attacking with his sword he went for a suicidal attack.

First off, we must agree on something: This part of the manga doesn't make much sense, I think most people will agree with that statement. Right after Yamamoto lost RJ, he proceeded to explain why Aizen couldn't defeat him even without RJ. He didn't look like someone who thought only his strongest technique could hurt Aizen. Kubo could make Aizen defeat Yamamoto after he lost RJ but instead Kubo used Yamamoto's own devastating power to defeat him as if he would otherwise be trouble for Aizen.

Anyway, you say "Yamamoto used a strong technique of RJ because weaker techniques couldn't defeat Aizen", I say "Yamamoto used a strong technique of RJ because weaker techniques wouldn't connect, Yamamoto doesn't even need RJ techniques to defeat Aizen, he can cut Aizen's throat with a sealed sword." For some reason, Yamamoto thought he should have blown up the whole area, this is how the manga portrayed the situation. I can't think of an explanation that makes more sense.


Now, I do think an actual attack from RJ can basically reduce the enemy to ashes, carbonize them to the bone. That said, a strong enough enemy won't necessarily be instantly burned to death.

LOL then why do you make posts as if you disagree with me? :)

I've already said Yamamoto's fire gradually burned a strong opponent, it weakened him. RJ's release only indicates the start of the fight, Yamamoto isn't supposed to defeat his opponents by releasing and then sealing his sword, he has to actually fight and make actual attacks like this (http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/339/05-06/).


At this particular case I don't think ishin or aizen are that far off from yama's level.

If Isshin shows some new interesting abilities, things may be different but IMO GT doesn't cut it against Yamamoto. Yes, it can do damage if it connects but it's hard for Isshin to create an opening to hit Yamamoto. He will be under constant pressure of Yamamoto's fire, if he has a shikai ability that may provide protection to some extent, he may put up a better fight.

As for Aizen, I'll repeat what Kubo says: Yamamoto likely defeats Aizen and therefore he is stronger. (Because if you likely defeat someone in a fight, it means you're stronger.) But "Aizen is weaker" doesn't mean he loses whenever they fight, he has a fair chance to defeat Yamamoto if he manages to create favourable circumstances, he has this potential. KS is a great asset.

Rainl
June 24, 2010, 09:27 AM
What exactly is it that the manga says? I don't question RJ ability to attack, simply I don't think yama thought his regular RJ would have necessarily done the job against aizen hence why he took the time to prepare an attack as overpowered as the flames of hell.

It's called "plot-induced stupidity". Absolutely nothing aside from that alone, saved Aizen in that moment. The simple fact that Aizen can lose to no one other than Ichigo makes situations like that pointless.

Yamamoto could've easily punched a hole in Aizen's head or chest with his bare-hands, thus ending that fight in an instant. Now, unless you believe Yamamoto's mere hands to be more effective than the strongest zanpaktou, your logic doesn't necessarily make sense, otherwise, a simple stroke of RJ would have completed the job.

I'll clear this up before accusations come along suggesting Yamamoto wouldn't be capable of penetrating Aizen's reiatsu with his bare-hands alone. I'll say it now. Wrong, he's already done it.

Here:

http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/393/09/

Yamamoto clearly pierces each finger within Aizen's arm. The notion that it was Yamamoto's own blood is proven wrong by the fact that blood is shown protruding outward from Aizen's wounds, aside from it smearing along his sleeves had it came from his gut wound.



this (http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/393/04/) is not enough to cause significant damage to strong enemies, at most a sweat(unless the enemy is question is weak enough to not be able to take that although IMO that would be someone beneath the captain class).

We honestly can't be looking at the same picture. The first one, yes I'll give you, but the second picture. To suggest no one would receive damage from that if they were to get caught up in it is ridiculous.

kkck
June 24, 2010, 01:23 PM
It's called "plot-induced stupidity". Absolutely nothing aside from that alone, saved Aizen in that moment. The simple fact that Aizen can lose to no one other than Ichigo makes situations like that pointless.

Yamamoto could've easily punched a hole in Aizen's head or chest with his bare-hands, thus ending that fight in an instant. Now, unless you believe Yamamoto's mere hands to be more effective than the strongest zanpaktou, your logic doesn't necessarily make sense, otherwise, a simple stroke of RJ would have completed the job.

I'll clear this up before accusations come along suggesting Yamamoto wouldn't be capable of penetrating Aizen's reiatsu with his bare-hands alone. I'll say it now. Wrong, he's already done it.

Here:

http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/393/09/

Yamamoto clearly pierces each finger within Aizen's arm. The notion that it was Yamamoto's own blood is proven wrong by the fact that blood is shown protruding outward from Aizen's wounds, aside from it smearing along his sleeves had it came from his gut wound.




We honestly can't be looking at the same picture. The first one, yes I'll give you, but the second picture. To suggest no one would receive damage from that if they were to get caught up in it is ridiculous.

I don't think it is certain a punch from yama on aizen would have the same effect it had on WW. It's plausible but we have to remember aizen's reiatsu was altogether above the captain class too. I am sure aizen would at least hurt like hell but exploding is not necessarily what would happen here.

I just think people who are strong enough can stand close to yamamoto's shikai release and receive either no damage or just sweat from the heat. It's not like yamamoto's very release is an attack, it is just random energy released by RJ. People like VCs and fraccion surely cannot even stand close to yamamoto but IMHO people in the captain class could stand there while sufferring less than marginal damage (unless they plan on standing there and dehydrate for the next few hours) and above captain class can just tolerate it as they'd tolerate the release of any other shikai.

Gran Maestro
June 24, 2010, 03:50 PM
I just think people who are strong enough can stand close to yamamoto's shikai release and receive either no damage or just sweat from the heat. It's not like yamamoto's very release is an attack, it is just random energy released by RJ. People like VCs and fraccion surely cannot even stand close to yamamoto but IMHO people in the captain class could stand there while sufferring less than marginal damage (unless they plan on standing there and dehydrate for the next few hours) and above captain class can just tolerate it as they'd tolerate the release of any other shikai.

Do you think fire from his release (http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/316/10/) is less effective than fire from his zanpakuto attacks (http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/339/05-06/)? It's the same fire, isn't it? Sure, it doesn't kill captains like Shunsui instantly but Kubo made it clear that everybody, even captains, should stay away from Yamamoto's fire even when he releases because they might get hurt. Shunsui and Ukitake ducked (http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/316/11/) even though Yamamoto wasn't directly targeting them.

Bowser
June 25, 2010, 04:53 PM
I plainly thought that Yamamoto's reiatsu was stronger than Aizen. Maybe I'm wrong.

kkck
June 25, 2010, 07:04 PM
Do you think fire from his release (http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/316/10/) is less effective than fire from his zanpakuto attacks (http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/339/05-06/)? It's the same fire, isn't it? Sure, it doesn't kill captains like Shunsui instantly but Kubo made it clear that everybody, even captains, should stay away from Yamamoto's fire even when he releases because they might get hurt. Shunsui and Ukitake ducked (http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/316/11/) even though Yamamoto wasn't directly targeting them.

I think there is a difference between the energy released when releasing a sword and the energy used for an actual attack. Other than the amount of energy released, I don't think there is much difference between what happens when yamamoto releases his sword and when any other character releases. For instance, arroniero's shikai released some water around (http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/265/21/). Would you think that water would have the same effect as an actual attack? Sometimes when ichigo uses GT or his mask he also releases a bunch of his reiatsu which looks like GT. Does that mean standing next to ichigo is an equivalent to receiving a full blown getsuga tensho? Surely weak enough people would get hurt from being close to either arroniero or ichigo when they release (worth noting, releasing fire would be different from releasing water or black reiatsu) against strong enough people it'd be marginal at most. The amount of power released from yamamoto's mere shikai is a testament to his power but I would not think that alone would do much or anything at all to strong enough people. I do think there is a difference between the fire that is randomly released when yamamoto releases his sword and when uses an attack. Note that the fire ukitake and kyoraku ducked was from yama's technique, not his mere release. The effect yamamoto's mere release had on them was clearly seen in SS arc. They started sweating a lot yet they still managed to fight for quite a long time.

niblack89
June 25, 2010, 11:59 PM
You guys are forgetting a few things.

Yamma's RJ is a kido based zampacto-He has multiple attacks and a wider range. His zampacto is like Histsu where it is flexible.

Isshin's is a melee type, the same as Ichigo-Their getsu's make their spiritual pressure high but in Isshin's case if its controlled it increases it attack power, speed and strength. Isshin is a beast in close range combat.

If Isshin is like Ichigo his growth rate is astounding which means Yamma has spent 1000 years training while Isshin only needed 100 or 200 to become full rounded. Also If he is like Ichigo he can adapt to any fighting style.

Yamma is an all around shinigami meaning he can use kido to high levels and as we say is great at hand to hand even taking out an espada such as wonderwise who took out a captain with a mask easily. As we can see Isshin is like Ichigo in he isn't a kido master but he does seem to have a great physical strength when we see him toss Aizen into a few building by flicking a finger.

Adding all this together and the fact that Isshin over powered Aizen without an initial release is saying something. Aizen was out of energy he didn't do much combat not one single captain pushed him to break a sweat.
Yamma showed raw power with his initial release but seeing as Isshin has a high spiritual energy RJ's flames don't seem like it would seriously damage him unless it get a good hit.
Ishin showed that he wasn't really taking Aizen serious because he didn't release engetsu. Which could have provided him with more power being a melee type zampacto Ichigo's zangetsu initial release gave Ichigo enough power to out class kenpachi.
If Aizen was around the speed of Yamma to begin with then Isshin's speed would be on or higher than Yamma. I would have to say they are even. Isshin is the proper version of Ichigo who is fast and power is immense but yamma being over 1000 years should have the same power. Yamma's RJ'raw power vs Isshin's engetu's spirit power. Don't really know who will win unless we see Isshin release engetsu, but Isshin was greater than Aizen without initial release and used a getsuga that would have demolished any other person if it was up close like that.

I say Ichigo has the potential to knock both them on their ass. Not yet but by the manga ends he will make yamma look like a dried up prune.

Gran Maestro
June 26, 2010, 03:32 AM
I think there is a difference between the energy released when releasing a sword and the energy used for an actual attack. Other than the amount of energy released, I don't think there is much difference between what happens when yamamoto releases his sword and when any other character releases. For instance, arroniero's shikai released some water around (http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/265/21/). Would you think that water would have the same effect as an actual attack? Sometimes when ichigo uses GT or his mask he also releases a bunch of his reiatsu which looks like GT. Does that mean standing next to ichigo is an equivalent to receiving a full blown getsuga tensho? Surely weak enough people would get hurt from being close to either arroniero or ichigo when they release (worth noting, releasing fire would be different from releasing water or black reiatsu) against strong enough people it'd be marginal at most. The amount of power released from yamamoto's mere shikai is a testament to his power but I would not think that alone would do much or anything at all to strong enough people. I do think there is a difference between the fire that is randomly released when yamamoto releases his sword and when uses an attack. Note that the fire ukitake and kyoraku ducked was from yama's technique, not his mere release. The effect yamamoto's mere release had on them was clearly seen in SS arc. They started sweating a lot yet they still managed to fight for quite a long time.

I see your point, fire from mere release (http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/155/23-24/) may lack enough energy to hurt strong opponents. I guess this fire (http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/316/10/) was not a part of RJ's release, it was a preparation for Jokaku Enjo attack, therefore it was more potent. This is why Yamamoto urged everyone to stand back, the fire of the technique was hot enough to hold three captains captive.

niblack89
June 26, 2010, 12:24 PM
What Hate is how Yamma let Aizen get this far. The guy easily took out your whole defense in one swipe and instead of using Bankai he used a wild fire technique tha would kill all hi captains. I'm sure one attack in Bankai would have dealt the same damage. Kubo's ugly work on keeping everyone's bankai a secret. I bet you when everyone uses Bankai their power is going to make Aizen's power look normal, with bankai they could have easily killed Aizen. Isshin not even going into his initial release is also ugly plot to. This arc went no where because of it.

The only way we could measure their powers are if they are on the same level. Isshin isn't using a fraction of his powers and Yamma got PAWNED by Aizen for use to see what he's packing.

Nicholas.Sama
June 26, 2010, 12:29 PM
The way I see it. Yamma used the hell fire technique because victory in a straight fight was not guaranteed. Aizen used WW because victory in a straight fight was not guaranteed. Both of them felt that the risk was too high.
So regardless of how much stronger Yamma was than Aizen, they were still in the same ballpark in terms of overall combat ability and had a decent chance of winning. But Aizen and Yamma are a true match up because they both use different fighting styles.

If Isshin's zanpakuto is like Ichigo's (offensive), he would probably lose, because RJ is the strongest offensive zanpakuto. But I have doubts that it would be as one sided as people would like to think.

Gran Maestro
June 26, 2010, 12:38 PM
^Nowadays I can't tel whether you are being sarcastic or not :p

There's no sarcasm in my post. :)

Why did you think so, because I said "this fire was not a part of RJ's release"? I think Yamamoto released his zanpakuto and then started to release fire to perform the technique. I don't think Yamamoto releases such an amount of fire whenever he releases his sword. ;)

Archmage
June 29, 2010, 04:18 AM
definitely yama. reasons;
1 most powerful zanpakutou
2 oldest captain with years of experience and there hasn't been a captain stronger than him in the past 1000 yrs
3 aizen said it himself that in a fair1 on 1 fight he'd lose to yama
Isshins gt sneak in gt slash was gud but unexpected. aizen took no chances with yama being the reason he created wonderweiss.

Kaiten
June 29, 2010, 02:02 PM
Until anything is known about Isshin's zanpakutou I hesitate to answer, or even imagine how he could win. All we know is the swords name and he can do GT with a sealed sword. Great stuff, and he's a great swordsman, but is that enough to over take Yama. As Captain Commander for 1000 years I need more before I can say anyone would defeat him. Even Aizen with all his hax felt the need to create an arrancar who's sole purpose is to seal RJ.

freshseth83
June 29, 2010, 02:33 PM
There's a reason Yama is captain commander. Shunsui Juushiro Unohana, all of them were direct students under him. So Shunsui and Juushiro know of his combat skills, his moves, his abilities. Anyone else I doubt it. To me the rest were academy students that were trained by people Yama instructed. But Shunsui Juushiro and Unohana were said to be his first students of the academy, if that means anything it's that they were instructed the same time anyone else who was first taught by Yama was. So there's my reason as to why Shunsui and Juushiro held their own against him. He said he wasn't going to take it easy on them, but a thing I found interesting is knowing that they're more adept to battling him than probably anyone around, even Juushiro pointed this out- http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/156/08/ The spiritual pressure is unbelievably strong, even from an initial release. The heat is hot enough to scorch the sky. Everything that blade touches is immediately incinerated.

Sounds like it's a win for Yama. GT or not, Isshin has no way of surviving if that blade hits him. The only one who could survive it was WW, because he has the ability -the SOLE ability, to extinguish. But what happened after that? Even without RJ, what does Yama say? http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/394/06/ You think you can strike me down if you supress ryuujin jakka? How naive, how dizzingly naive.

Which is my point- how naive are we to think that Isshin, or anyone for that matter could stand against Yama? Even without his sword- he owned WW- high speed regeneration and all.

SaintSheik
July 07, 2010, 08:44 PM
-edit-
Even Yamamoto's badass appearance was bigger than Isshin's Getsuga. LOL:
http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/393/04/Frankly, I'M surprised at the fact that this thread went past this comment. It is beyond me.
I'm an Isshin fan and all but the thought of Isshin defeating Yamamoto? How Naive...How dizzyingly Naive...But seriously based on what we've seen and heard, this goes to the captain-commander. There is one very small saving grace towards Isshin getting the win and that easily goes into theory territory...I knew you'd click :p

Okay out of the entire Yamamoto vs. Wonderweiss fiasco, the most I personally gained out of the fight were the Old Man's words and the outcome of the bout. I'm too lazy/tired to get the direct quote but I believe Yamamoto said something about him being the most powerful shinigami within the last 1,000 years.

Now what are the chances of Isshin being either out of Yama's radar or older than the Old Man himself? EXTREMELY slim to none, right? At the same time, Mr. Shinji didn't recognize Isshin's reiatsu. With Shinji being a seasoned captain turned exiled shinigami in the real world, where in the, for lack of better phrase, 'world' could Isshin be for Shinji not to be able to recognize Isshin's energy. Another 'realm' perhaps?

Who cares - As I said earlier, this leans towards theory territory which treads out of what we've seen in the story. All in all, Isshin is powerful no doubt, but I think the lack of background info dealing with him shouldn't give him any sort of edge on the sheer power shown in Yamamoto's part. Just an observation.

Xsoteria
July 07, 2010, 08:51 PM
^No theory territories here. No secret guns by Isshin. But that also means no undemonstrated power by Yama. The thread is specifically dealing with powers shown so far. I doubt anyone who voted Isshin so far would be doing so if the poll was including all of their potential powers. But I, and some others, felt that Yama didn't show enough of his skills to wtfpwn Isshin.

You can read the thread if you're interested in any further argumentation.

Magikabullet
July 08, 2010, 08:10 AM
I'm quite sure this goes to Yamma, mainly for destroying high level arrancar with nothing other than his fists and having a shikai that, at maximum capacity, can obliterate an area larger that a town. Since Isshin seems to be the brutish type as well he has no way around Yamma's frightening strength as others would (Urahara, Aizen) it will, most likely, amount to nothing more than a frontal confrontation with an unfortunately obvious outcome.

ryanzokuken
July 08, 2010, 05:55 PM
i seriously wonder if we'll ever encounter a character by Bleach's end that could defeat Yama in an outright fight, save for MAYBE this new god form Aizen.

Hystzen
July 09, 2010, 11:35 AM
yamma is more overpowered than god aizen.

the only person who could get close is if by some miracle Kenpachi learns his shikai name and gets bankai.....kenpachi bankai plus kendo = end of all bleach characters.

but on topic isshin got no chance heck even aizen had no chance and had to pull a kubo pwn in the shape of WW...so in short isshin gets owned

freshseth83
July 15, 2010, 04:48 AM
kenpachi is a reiatsu leaker, nothing more. his strength is nothing compared to yama. his two best students, shunsui n juushiro together weren't enough to beat him, but isshin, winning? i put him maybe at shunsui's level. yama is the beast of beasts, one attack creamed ww, with fists. one strike creamed alon, with fire, one kido almost charred aizen into a bbq- hes mastered things already mastered- kido, hakuda, shunpo etc.

no character could beat yama but his own self- which aizen conveniently took note of.

Xsoteria
July 15, 2010, 10:12 AM
^I agree with you but I think you're a bit exaggerative of Yama's feats there.

Allon? He is certainly strong but I don't think it's an opponent Yama could really demonstrate the extent of his power. Any average captain would make short work of Allon (although probably not as impressive as Yama did).

His kido attack was hardly that impressive. Which is reasonable, since he took a city buster prior to that, but you can't really say he did any significant damage to Aizen. He did create an opening for Ichigo though. Not really a testimony to his powers.

Also, I wouldn't put Shunsui at Isshin's level. I don't think Shunsui showed enough to be on equal footing with Aizen in a swordfight.

freshseth83
July 21, 2010, 03:12 PM
So Shunsui would lose to Aizen had he come in afterwards and not had to face any espada, not had to waste any energy, not had to worry about the effects of KS? That's far-fetched. Yama didn't lose to Aizen- he lost to himself. His own power is what took him out. Not Aizen's power. Isshin lost to Aizen as well. Just because he caught him with a kido flick means he's all of a sudden God-like? No. He had the convenience of Aizen taking hits from Ichigo, and Yama- then he comes in and catches him off guard and weakened and in a stage where he's trying to subdue the hog'. That doesn't speak of Isshin's strengths. I'm not saying he's weak, but there's no indication that he's stronger than a top-tier captain.

Everyone uses the Aizen example but fails to point out that when Isshin was fighting him he wasn't using KS- which he used against every other captain. Then Urahara and Yoruichi come in and they point that out, but fail to point out he wasn't using KS then either. And wasn't even being 'careful' as he usually is, as put by Urahara. How does that show Isshin in a light greater than a captain who took out the #1 espada in Shikai? Let alone Yama.

And about Ayon- Hisagi, Matsumoto, Iba, Momo- all beaten by Ayon- all Vice-captains, almost near captain level. You telling me that 4 vice captains are not equal to one 'average' captain? Don't be silly. Ayon was a monster, and Yama took him out in 2 strikes. The fact he survived one strike is a wonder. And afterwards he cooked Ayon's creators. If it weren't for Yama, Ayon would have killed those 4 plus Kira- so make that 5 vice captains that couldn't stand up to him, but yeah- he wasn't strong huh?

Gran Maestro
July 21, 2010, 03:34 PM
Isshin stands no chance against Yamamoto with only GT. Every swing of Yamamoto's sword is a fire attack which incinerates opponents. Isshin needs an ability to protect him against Yamamoto's fire, only then he can have a meaningful fight.

Xsoteria
July 21, 2010, 03:45 PM
^^First of all, more than once has it been implied that there is a very large gap in power between a VC and a captain. Even Renji, who is considered to be one of the more powerful VCs, couldn't lay a finger on a captain. Allon was strong, but hardly a threat to any of the captains.

I'm not sure you read through the same manga I did. Aizen stopped Ichigo in his prime in his bankai (Ichigo had a battle previously but his power was not small by any means). Aizen using his reiatsu alone forced GJ to his knees. GJ being leagues above Nanao-chan who suffered similar fate from Yama. Aizen effortlessly cleaves through captain class shinigami, Ichigo doesn't even see him move, let alone reacts to him. There is just so much testimony to his power that I can't really understand what makes you think Shunsui could do anywhere near that. Especially if Shunsui's best feat was a victory over Starrk under very circumstantial scenario in a gang up in Shunsui's favor.

When Isshin fought Aizen, Aizen was neither hurt nor tired. He didn't even break a sweat in the slaughter of the captains and any harm done to him was nullified by HY.

There is also nothing in the manga to suggest that other than one time in the whole Hinamori scenario, Aizen was using KS. Gin hinted to Ichigo that KS isn't the thing to be afraid of, it's Aizen's actual power and skill.

I think that engaging Aizen in a sword fight and not having your bankai broken along with your body, with his unreleased sword is a testimony to one's strength. But if one does better than Aizen in a swordfight, who is clearly on a completely different level of power than any of the captains, then I think this person just may be the one to hold his own in a high level fight like this.

Eddy01741
July 21, 2010, 08:39 PM
How do we know Aizen wasn't tired already though?

He just defeated something like a dozen captains before facing Isshin. Do you think Aizen just makes illusions with KS for free? It would be reasonable to assume that usage of a shikai ability (especially one so powerful) would take some reiatsu.

Plus, pushing someone to their limit unreleased doesn't matter in the big picture. If Isshin had pushed Aizen in bankai to his limit, then yes, I would be very impressed, but the fact remains that he pushed a non-shikai using Aizen who had already defeated a bunch of other captains/ex-captains to his limit.

Until we see something extremely impressive from Isshin, I have to give it to Yamamoto. It was implied that Yamamoto's shikai alone was enough to take down non-hogyoku Aizen.

Xsoteria
July 21, 2010, 11:11 PM
Well I figured we would see some signs of fatigue on him? It's not like he was shown spamming his KS ability or struggling against the captains. And he was shown to have a pretty big reiatsu, I doubt he's so easily spent.

You're also right, it has been implied that Yamma could beat up Aizen, but that is the reason I made this thread under the circumstances I did (limiting Yama's powers to the ones shown).

I doubt that Isshin, or anyone else could take Yama in a straight up fight. Aizen's any potential victory would have to involve some trickery with his hax ability, and even then Yama's probably the one with the advantage.