So what did Jiraya teach Naruto for three years of time break?

[Eprst]

Well i still don't get what were Jiraya and Naruto doing during their three years training. Naruto didn't learn any new jutsu - he still was using Kage Bunshins and rasengan. And Rasengan was made by clone. He was able to go to Kyubi mode with 1 tail.
The only thing i know is that he taught him mysterious "that" jutsu. Which he promised not to use. Maybe they were doing research together? :)

[Richo]

Well i still don't get what were Jiraya and Naruto doing during their three years training. Naruto didn't learn any new jutsu - he still was using Kage Bunshins and rasengan. And Rasengan was made by clone. He was able to go to Kyubi mode with 1 tail.
The only thing i know is that he taught him mysterious "that" jutsu. Which he promised not to use. Maybe they were doing research together? :)

well naruto could effectively go up to 3 tails without losing control. Naruto aged abit and increased his general abilities and seemed to have learned a new jutsu which he hasn't used yet uptill now as far I recall.
The timeskip doesn't seem to have much effect because everyone else also improved alot. We have to keep in mind that naruto was on even grounds with S-class ninja like deidara. The only thing naruto trained for after the time skip is his wind element: rasen shuriken and Sage mode and not his general strenght which only improved through combat.
So it might not have seemed like naruto didn't learn alot because he did not learned any new jutsu, he merely improved his basics which he lacked.

[Eprst]

Comparing to him Sasuke improved so much, maybe manga was composed this way to show that Sasuke became so powerfull with his training under Orochimaru.
I think we will see more details from Naruto memory flashbacks. Or maybe "that" jutsu is so powerfull and tricky that most of the time Jiraya was preparing Naruto to use it.

[benelori]

This is not about the number of jutsu...it's how to apply one's style effectively, and gather experience...I mean usage of Kage Bunshin has improved, usage of weapons, he had shuriken sealed in a scroll, Oodama rasengan, which people underestimate...it's not like what the heck it's just a bigger rasengan...one must consider basic rasengan, and its level first...
They had anti-genjutsu training, which is not done just like that...I guess to deepen abilities, time must, pass, especially with anti-genjutsu training, since Naruto's chakra control sucks...
Then teamwork, ability to quickly reorganize into different formations, and taijutsu are the basics of a shinobi, about which Naruto didn't give a damn in the academy, and in his genin years, he had Akatsuki attacks, Orochimaru attack, so he had a busy life...

Jiraiya made up for the lost knowledge from academy and genin years, but helped Naruto to develop powerful jutsus, or upgrade existent ones that suit his personality/fighting style...

[hibar90]

I don't think jiraiya train him to do anything so far. His improvement can be self taught as there wasn't anything ground breaking. He was a lot more proficient at kage bunshin and able to put make a bigger rasengan. Which I have no idea how it's any different than rasengan. If he put more spin and it gets bigger won't the damage won't it nullify the spin increase? I thought it was kept at softball size to maximize damage. Improving the basic alsp doesn't require a sannin to teach. Unless naruto is that much of a douche. Or jiraiya is not as good of a teacher compared to kakashi. He make naruto learn new jutsu in 1 week or so. In 3 years Jiraiya failed to mention chakra element. Maybe he was more of a protector than a teacher. Also naruto was far below deidara. Deidara had no bombs he was simply a diversion. And he was forced by Kakashi to fight close range when he's a long range specialist.

Oro was also making drugs and experiment. He was the science coach of naruto universe. So sasuke taking steroid to speed up his growth is plausible. I think sakura mentioned that it's a possibility. So I don't think his growth is as natural as Naruto.

[LuizzzBR]

He didn't learn anything. In the tree years together, Naruto just grow and improved his jutsus.

[THM Nindo]

What he learned :
- The basics (he finally learned them)
- Lots of Taijutsu fighting (I guess)
- Oodama Rasengan
- Trying the Kyubbi control
- "That jutsu" ?

[CBlitz]

I always figured "that jutsu" was trying to utilize the Kyuubi's power since Naruto having a super secret hidden move now would be absolutely ridiculous. I mean I'm pretty sure he could have found an apporpriate time to use whatever ace he had up his sleeve during the more fighting intensive parts of the manga. And yeah Naruto may not have learnt anything new over the time-skip but he became a much better ninja overall. Like holding his own against S-class ninjas, which he probably couldn't have done before the training :P

training doesn't always mean learning something new, it can also be all about improving current skills

[Eprst]

I guess yeah most of the new things they did was about fox chakra, Jiraya back then understood that his fate is to be Jinchuuriki and sooner or later Naruto needs to deal with Kyubis chakra. Probably injuries were very serious so Jiraya was recovering for a long time since he doesn't have healing powers.

[DanielKnoT]

He specially improved in chakra control with Jiraiya, that is usefull for control 3 Tails of the Kyubi, Bigger Rasengan, More control of Kage Bunshins, Summonings, and specially, How to defend against Genjutsu..

[Gats]

During three years, Naruto learned how to make a pervert book and a new level of Harem/Sexy no Jutsu. The rest is meaningless.

[SeninNaruto]

It is quite possible that naruto learned sealing techniques during those three years. We know that Jiraiya was an expert in them (for e.g. five element unseal). Also, naruto used the key to remove the seal on the kyuubi with relative ease. I don't think it's such an easy task. I also suspect that "that jutsu" has something to do with Minato's Flying Thunder God Technique. This is also a fūinjutsu.
Of course, naruto also improved his basic fighting skills and ninjutsu during these years. But during every training period, Jiraiya has taught naruto something new - (e.g. kuchiyose, rasengan).. So why should this period be any different?

[niblack89]

Naruto trained on the basics dispelling genjutsu, taijutsu.

He learned to summon frogs the right way

He learned to use mass shadow clones without the kyuubi

He learned to use a bigger rasengan

Of course *that jutsu which require the kyuubi it was probably was hard to master seeing as every time Naruto goes kyuubi he losses him mind and weakens the seal. That might have used up a lot of time.

After the time skip he became Chunin level it was during his training with Kakashi that he learned to fully use his shadow clones and wind element that made him jounin level. The deal Jiraiya seem to have made with Kakashi was he trains him the basics and Kakashi finishes the rest.

[hibar90]

Lol all the "basic" should be learn with Jiraiya or not. The thread ask what Jiraiya passed down to naruto. I assume maybe a little info about needle barage, sage art, SM or hair spike porcupine thing jutsu or something new. But no it was his old stuff polished, he taught naruto rasengan b4 timeskip and oodama is just a bigger rasengan, just like making more kage bunshin. And so far "that" jutsu hasn't been mention again so far. What we do know is that naruto was still unable to break the genjutsu that only him fell into, he couldn't even break away from it and the caster is not the real thing while fighting kakashi.

[ek7]

Actually, considering his other students I believe Jiraiya is the best sensei in the Narrutoverse. I think during these 3 years, he taught chakra and Kyuubi control and very probably that jutsu. It is clear that when Naruto would use that jutsu he would lose the control, without Yamato around controlling Kyuubi is nearly impossible.

On the other hand, I think at least a year and a half is wasted because of Naruto's stupidity. Can you imagine Jiraiya explaining basics of ninjutsu to Naruto?

And the last thing, seeing how he trained Rain trio, I don't believe he did the same effort with Naruto.

[M3J]

Naruto improved on his general shinobi skills. His bunshin usage was improved, and he fought smarter. Instead of going all "HEY COME AND GET ME BITCHEZ!!!" he was stealthier and smarter. His taijutsu also looked improved.

[DARK]

- Improving taijutsu skills.
- Learning how to summon weapons from a scroll.
- Being able to use the Oodama Rasengan.
- Knowing how to better use Shadow Clones in battle (i.e. a clone helping the real Naruto escape Kakashi's shuriken during their bell test).
- How to counter basic-level genjutsu (by shutting off your chakra).
- Some "perverted" jutsu that, for some reason, Naruto is unable to reveal it.

[Eprst]

Haha yeah probably his usage of Kage Bunshins improved because Jiraya was insisting on using Sexy no Jutsu on Kage Bunshins everyday, but why so many of you think that he had anti genjutsu training? Jiraya sucked at genjutsu and at countering genjutsu - for this purpose he had Ma and Pa on his shoulder.
I don't remember that manga showed his resistance to genjutsu - he was easily captured by Itacis genjutsu and couldn't get out of it, and the same happened when he was caught to Three tails illusion.

[hibar90]

Haha yeah probably his usage of Kage Bunshins improved because Jiraya was insisting on using Sexy no Jutsu on Kage Bunshins everyday, but why so many of you think that he had anti genjutsu training? Jiraya sucked at genjutsu and at countering genjutsu - for this purpose he had Ma and Pa on his shoulder.
I don't remember that manga showed his resistance to genjutsu - he was easily captured by Itacis genjutsu and couldn't get out of it, and the same happened when he was caught to Three tails illusion.

Jiraiya sucks at casting genjutsu. But, he was never caught in one in the manga. It was the girl that's under Itachi's genjutsu. Either way, it was also never stated that Jiraiya is good at resisting genjutsu or even breaking it. So, I would assume he can deal with up to B class genjutsu, but A and above he would be in serious trouble with out a partner. And, tsukuyomi is just instant kill before you even bother. (72 hours of torture in a matter of second in real life). He attempted to teach naruto but he failed.

[gnut]

jiraiya told him in the beginning that it took the forth 3yrs to perfect rasengan.maybe it took naruto all 3yrs to perfect it,thats why he has so many variants of it like it is new to him.especially when the 4th's plain rasengan was the shiznit!!

[Jspot]

I always figured "that jutsu" was trying to utilize the Kyuubi's power since Naruto having a super secret hidden move now would be absolutely ridiculous

Although I agree with it being a ridiculous ace-in-the-sleeve, I feel that the wording is indicative of something a little more specific than utilizing Kyuubi chakra. If Jiraiya told him not to use it, and Naruto, with a downward, upsetting gaze, said, "I know," I would imagine that he wouldn't so easily dye himself in the Fox's power up until the incident with Sakura.

It just seems fuzzy to me.

[WickedNeko]

Instead of learning 50 spells / jutsu half assed, Naruto mastered a few that he knew how to use. Saskue, in comaprison, learned multiple new sharingan abilities... but not a single one of those abilities exceeds that of Itachi (with possible exception of amaterasu).

I suppose an argument can be made of quality vs quantity... whether it's better to have a few special moves at high level or dozens of special moves at low ~ mid level.

Oh, and in defense of Sasuke.... his multiple abilities did end up helping him "win" against Danzou, who depended on a single (but seemingly invincible) high rank ability (aka dimensional shift).

[Eprst]

Well about quantity - Sasuke learned more jutsus than Naruto, but then he practices them on Orochimaru or Itachi. And they were powerfull jutsus like Kirin and shape manipulation. Naruto improved his basic skills but didn't learn much new stuff. But probably they were working hard on "that" jutsu. because i understand that Jiraya was a great strategist, he wanted to teach him something that maybe later only he could accomplish and especially with Fox power.

[M3J]

Haha yeah probably his usage of Kage Bunshins improved because Jiraya was insisting on using Sexy no Jutsu on Kage Bunshins everyday, but why so many of you think that he had anti genjutsu training? Jiraya sucked at genjutsu and at countering genjutsu - for this purpose he had Ma and Pa on his shoulder.
I don't remember that manga showed his resistance to genjutsu - he was easily captured by Itacis genjutsu and couldn't get out of it, and the same happened when he was caught to Three tails illusion.

Naruto did have genjutsu dispelling training, even if it was for a minute. He was put into a genjutsu by Itachi, one of the best genjutsu user at the time. Even Itachi remarked at how Naruto grew when he tried to dispell Itachi's genjutsu. Jiraiya did teach him the basics of dispelling genjutsu, maybe not as great at Itachi's genjutsu, but good enough.
Three Tails illusion? Anime doesn't count. Fillers.

[Diadz]

I dont think what Jiraiya said to Naruto was him forbidding to use "that" jutsu, I dont even think Naruto has a special ultra secret not-yet-finished at that time. I think he means "that power" as in, the Kyuubi's power because of what happened to Jiraiya and him giving Kakashi a special seal to restrain the Kyuubi chakra. I also believe, in the anime he said "that power" instead of "that jutsu" but, seeing my timezone, I dont have the energy to look it up right now XD

[shaheer]

well the answer is nothing....all this time he was training to create a rasengan with a bigger dia sth to ward off weak lvl genjutsu and some taijutsu which increased his attack marginally...
wat a complete @$$....i mean he comes back after 3 yrs of training knowing NOTHING,NOTHING abt elemental affinity no s class manuver when sakura that no body sakura became much more than some body
all naruto did to corner kakashi was that crap senen goroshi and that stupid retarded spoiler weakness, i mean c on..and that loose argument of :naruto didnt learn any thing because he was learning THAT jutsu is getting too lame . that dunce faced off pain against whom he had to go 6 tail and then 8 and still no that Jutsu ...seriously...i guess after 2 yrs we willsee that jutsu by which time the others have sth more powerful than that jutsu
look at saske he had arsenal of jutsu and knew how to use them to the fullest naruto had Kb didnt know how to use them to its fullest ..kakashi had to explain the experience sharing thing ...rasengan but never input any elements in his 3 yrs travel where as saske mastered 2 elements atleast 3.5 yrs ago
the abysmal idiot just came up saying all the stuffs claiming that he is very powerful now yet couldnt do any thing aginst that pseudo itachi...kakashi had to hold itachi when naruto made his move. And if sakura wasnt there then naruto with is 3 yrs worth of training would have eternally slept in that genjutsu ....
saske created Kirrin on his own..sakura managed medic tech that can challenge chio ba s medical knowledge and naruto kept on traveling through branches till kakashi tore off dedara,even then he couldnt do any thing on his own rather had to go 2 tails
wow thas a mighty improvement ..to tell the truth getting so strong in 2 weeks or less and spending 3 yrs and coming back with nothing impressive is really annoying what ever you say

Edit: oh i forgot he must have UTILIZED his time to perfect J mans book i guess thats the only thing they did (if i skip the once 4th tail leak part)

[Askia32]

During three years, Naruto learned how to make a pervert book and a new level of Harem/Sexy no Jutsu. The rest is meaningless.

Pretty much. Most of the stuff people are saying he learned, he probably would of learned in Konoha as well after 3years.

Spending 3 years with Jiraiya gave him the absolute minimum of what you would expect. Naruto grew the least by far out of team 7 in that time skip.

[shaheer]

there now i get somebody who shares my Opinion..i mean look even after this 3 yr of elite training he still needs kb to create rasengan i am sure 3 month training solely to master rasengan then he could have achieved that feat...

[agadoo]

he could have been teaching about the way of life and all that sort of stuff.
A teacher can impart more than just fighting techniques.

[Eman]

When we finally see what, 'that jutsu' is, we can fairly judge his growth during his training with Jiraiya.

[hibar90]

Jiraiya was not a teacher to naruto. He was a protector, a writer and gathering info on akatsuki. Aside from watching over naruto he already have 2 full time job. I think naruto train by himself daily, but on weekend and holidays Jiraiya would toy with his seal to see how many tail it would take to truly endanger the world.

[Gottheim]

Considering that Naruto's been previously portrayed as a fast learner (KB in an afternoon, Ransengan in a few weeks) you have to be wondering what the heck he's been doing with Jiraiya for those 3 years.

What we did see of him was some measure of genjutsu defense, a bigger Rasengan and... actually less control over the Kyuubi!

I can understand the author's need to "save him up" for later and preserve drama, but this has been stretched too thin.
The same old Kage Bunshin trick aside, he didn't show any improvement in his strategic skills right up until the belated Pain fight. Naruto being an Idiot Hero doesn't excuse him from having at least theoretical knowledge in elemental jutsu and awareness of the benefits of Bunshin training. By all means, Jiraiya should have known about those things, and been able to pass them on to his charge.

We know from Kakashi and Itachi that shadow clones can explode or be infused with elemental chakra. As a liberal clone user Naruto should have such moves in his arsenal. He hasn't.
As a Toad contractor, he should have had access to all of Jiraiya's summon-based moves. Why doesn't he use any?

The only reason I can think of for Naruto's lack of variety is that the author's forcibly trying to make a point, at the cost of Plot Induced Stupidity. "The number of jutsu doesn't matter, only the guts and determination to never give up". Neat, but it comes from a guy with one of the largest repertoires in the whole manga.

[shaheer]

Jiraiya took naruto off to teach him and polish him good..now if he didnt do the job them its both his fault and narutos fault. I kind a find it hard to believe that some one who learned Kb on his own learns nothing new on his 3 yrs of darn training. As for training him occasionally remember he did train him occasionally during rasengan training as well did that hamper narutos growth ? it didnt . And if writing that stupid book meant more than training naruto then i have nothing to say.
As for protecting him does it mean that he needed to keep naruto in a cell where he cant train and watch over him..no he could have very well protected him in his training period these rnt mutually exclusive.
and there was no threat to naruto in the 3 yrs didnt naruto say that so what extra protection did he need aprt from being with the strongest sanin..i mean couldnt jiraya teach him a single element ? When naruto came back he didnt even know that elemental affinity exist . He still cant manage a rasengan on his own aprt from Kb help that means striping his chakra half and that Kb goes poof..he didnt know how togather intel on his enemy by using Kb
he still has no jutsu aprt from Kb rasengan and summoning ..now i am not saying that he needs a thousand but get a decent amount.All he does is use rasengan .If flies then its flying, if its bigger then its giant, if its directed in the ground then its smoke screen.
naruto wouldnt have lasted 5 min against kakashi in that sparring if sakura wasnt there and kakashi finished the book , and i thought Jiraya was preparing naruto for akatsuki. The naruto which came back would be beaten to a pulp by neiji who is a rooky jounin and we r talking abt s rank criminals
the naruto who left was the strongest in his age grp and the one who came back was the weakest, bar Tenten and Ino

[Alterno]

I don't believe Jiraiya is the best teacher of Konoha or like someone said, in the universe of Naruto. Actually for what we have seen in the manga that honor belongs to Kakashi, even if Kakashi recognized Ebisu being a better teacher.

Kakashi trained Naruto since day one and managed to teach him how to climb trees, find his chakra element, a secret about Kagebunshin no Jutsu and guide him into creating if not the most complex jutsu in the whole shinobi world, at least one of them.

@ Jiraiya

Jiraiya training made sense, he was training Naruto to control the Kyuubi's chakra and the development of the new sealing jutsu, that's the jutsu that Minato left incomplete and was completed by Naruto the last week. Besides teaching him how to break Ninjutsu, he teached him how to make use of Kyuubi's chakra reserve to create Oodama rasengan.

[ashher]

While i can't refute the great points that have been made here, i think jiraya did train him. Having control upto three tails must have meant a very time consuming hard training and its something that couldn't have been done with kb as they go poof. Also impoving his basics must have taken a long time as its something that only comes after repeating and repeating. Its something very different from learning any jutsu as in case of jutsus once you get it, you get it. but battle timing and basics will keep impoving as much as you practice. Jiraya must not have thought it to be necessary to make sure naruto do a onehanded rs. What was important was to make sure he does it fast enough despite using kb and naruto certainly has been able to do so in 2nd part unlike the 1st. Taking this approach meant that improving his skill and timing with kb and that was a very important bonus as it added so much variety and improvisation in his strategy that compensated for not having many jutsus. And without that kb method of training , which was an original innovative idea from kakashi, jiraya must've felt it will take too much time to teach naruto nature manipulation and then use that to teach some jutsu that will actually matter. Kakashi said that it normally takes years to do so. And the best that shape manipulation alone could do was a rank only which naruto could do already. So jiraya must've reasonably felt that teaching naruto how to make the best use of what he could do already is a more viable option than trying to teach him new things. And i think he did train naruto about seals, perhaps not much of the theory as naruto seemed confused about the names of the seals, but he sure can work with them practically as we have seen on few occasions. What i don't understand is why not teach him the summon related jutsus which shouldn't have been that time consuming or difficult.

[shaheer]

Please..... look at sakura ..she had no base to improve on. All she was good at was manipulation ...from there she became such an awesome medic nin in such a short time ... her combat level improved to such a degree and infused with strength she was as formidable as possible for a chunin .. and i doubt learning how to manipulate elements takes ages ... i wager 3 -4 month training at most would be enough

[Googlez_kun]

I think some people fail to see the little aspects.It was not all about training,it was hardening a bond with his sensei that would become something like a grandfather for him.During that time Jiraiya became one of Naruto's best friends,they seemed like a family.I think Jiraiya knew that Naruto needed someone like this,so he took the time he needed to make a close partner.Jiraiya also knew that he was old and needed someone who would take his place and Naruto was the perfect boy for that.He formed him a bit by his ideals,Jiraiya wanted a better future and peace,so obviously he also had to prepare Naruto for that.

Another aspect is that mental thing.When Naruto faced Itachi and Kisame for the first time,he nearly crapped his pants and could've been killed any second.So Jiraiya had to prepare him for that as well.Naruto was supposed to destroy Akatsuki and become Hokage,so he needed mental training first,especially when facing someone like Pain.Naruto would've lost if he didn't know Jiraiya and his ideals.Naruto would've continued with the cycle of hatred,but for Jiraiya and for the world peace,he did not kill Nagato and in return Nagato ressurected the villagers.Those 2 and a half years gave Naruto all that,because of those 2 and a half years Naruto was able to save the village.

Add all the basic skills and the rest and i think those two years weren't wasted at all.

[shaheer]

//.It was not all about training,it was hardening a bond with his sensei that would become something like a grandfather for him.During that time Jiraiya became one of Naruto's best friends,they seemed like a family//
eh you mean if he wouldnt have been a somebody if j man trained him good? thats no point there
and no one need to polish ideals for naruto he already have a utopian idealogy ..just look at " i ll save saske weather he needs saving or not" stuffs
//Another aspect is that mental thing.When Naruto faced Itachi and Kisame for the first time,he nearly crapped his pants and could've been killed any second//
if naruto became as strong as saske did in the time skip he wouldnt have wetted his pants .. hell y will he wet his pants if naruto could break the genjutsu that pseudo itachi gave him . knew sth like 2 elements and atleast 4-5 different jutsus making him more versatile and taijutsu improved significantly...and more importantly was able to create rasengan without clone assistance

[Googlez_kun]

The stuff with Sasuke is something different.I could explain it to you,but that would take time and it would be off-topic.^^
Anyway,i just read the chapter with the little flashback again: http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/416/06/
It just shows how Naruto slowly addapted the idea of peace.Before the 2 and a half years,Naruto was just a little brat who wanted to be Hokage and save Sasuke,but the conversations with Jiraiya helped him to understand that he does not understand,or rather that he can't understand Sasuke's point of view.Those conversations changed him,they let him mature.They indirectly helped him to face Sasuke after the Danzou fight.(Well,the first time he faced him he was still too stubborn,but after Pain,he understood everything and to understand all that he also needed the base that Jiraiya created in those 2 and a half years.)
Also look at the extra manga pages in the data book,that showed a part of the training.Naruto had fun there and i bet that was another big aspect.
Naruto has been struggling through the past 13 years and had a f*cking bad time,so having a break like that with his shishou,was a great experience for him.I would even say that that may have been the best years of his life and Naruto surely deserved that.One could even say that it was like a vacation with one of his closest,maybe even the closest person he had.

During that time he got prepared for Akatsuki and learned the ninja basics,which children have to learn during six years in the ninja academy.Well,Naruto sucked at that,mainly because he skipped the lessons.He was not even able to make a normal bunshin before that training arc,which really every genin can do.
He learned the stuff from 6 years in only 2 and a half and that's a damn big feet.

[shaheer]

//Before the 2 and a half years,Naruto was just a little brat who wanted to be Hokage and save Sasuke,but the conversations with Jiraiya helped him to understand that he does not understand,or rather that he can't understand Sasuke's point of view//
yes my point a nice bed time chat after a hard day training can do that part you dont need to :om the whole day and be one with the force you must.

//Also look at the extra manga pages in the data book,that showed a part of the training.Naruto had fun there and i bet that was another big aspect//
sure he did he goofed off all day thats y we see marginal improvement

//Naruto has been struggling through the past 13 years and had a f*cking bad time,so having a break like that with his shishou,was a great experience for him.I would even say that that may have been the best years of his life and Naruto surely deserved that.//
pur-lease he went to train like crazy not to ride some merry go round if it was all that Y didnt he say blatant ly Granny tsunbade i am the same @$$ h*le that left alli did was some counselling so you know thati am ready for the next hokage ..he was burtling sth like i have trained thick and thin and Jiraya did say he polished naruto

//During that time he got prepared for Akatsuki and learned the ninja basics,which children have to learn during six years in the ninja academy.Well,Naruto sucked at that,mainly because he skipped the lessons.He was not even able to make a normal bunshin before that training arc,which really every genin can do//
and without those training he mastered Kb on his own in no time mastered rasengan in one month learned summoning .. oh geez he had the basic he didnt perfect them. perfecting the basic after coming this far and going in to the ninja world so much would have taken him 3 month...
what we see is after 3 yrs of training he finally confronts saske where he gets his @$$ moped and comes back for more training ...now they say OHH NARUTO YOU WILL BE SURPASSING THE 4 TH IF YOU GO LIKE THIS. Dumb retard y didnt he in the 3 yrs polish himself to be at least a rooky jounin level

[hibar90]

I personally think both Jiraiya and Naruto could have use their time more efficiently. I mean 3 years is a long time. You could learn a bunch of things in those 3 years. Strengthening the basic must be done everyday after or before training for new stuff. Apart from learning new technique at sport you also have to do the basic. So, same thing here. In that 3 years Naruto grew the least from team 7.

[kthy0056]

I actually like Naruto more in this way. Take a glance at Sakura, she shined only during her fight with Sasori. After that, she only became a burden that whined a lot, failed to kill Sasuke, stood in Kyuubi-Naruto's way and so on.
What about Sasuke? Do we see him doing any snake-related jutsu after his battle with Itachi? No. His 3 years of training with Orochimaru were thus, useless.

This is why Kishimoto is a mangaka and you're not. He knew that his characters must be balanced, and he knew that Naruto's power would consist of having the Kyuubi. Adding some random but powerful jutsus to his arsenal AND improving his ability to use the bijuu would be overkill. He also knew that Naruto is not a secondary character, so that we need to see him developing and changing. We can easily throw powers to Kakashi, Sakura and Sasuke, because we aren't supposed to care about them as much as we are supposed to care about Naruto.

[Wint]

We know from Kakashi and Itachi that shadow clones can explode or be infused with elemental chakra. As a liberal clone user Naruto should have such moves in his arsenal. He hasn't.
It depends on chakra nature the user has. Kakashi's affinity is lightning, with Earth and Water as secondary affinities while Itachi's seems to be Fire, with Water for secondary.
Naruto, for now, has only Wind.
While it's unknown what element exploding shadow clone uses, it is presumed to be Fire-natured. Kakashi's, obviously, lightning kage bunshin stuns an enemy.
What would something intangible (as I imagine fuuton: kage bunshin) do to an enemy? I dunno.
And by the way, Itachi was the creator of exploding shadow clone, so why would anyone else know how to use it?

As for efficiency of time spent on training, I somewhat disagree. I tend to think that Naruto's education at the academy has been purposely sabotaged for obvious reasons. What Jiraiya was teaching him was general battle tactics, control over nine-tails to some extent and filling out the massive blanks in Naruto's education as a ninja. All in all, how to survive, being targeted by powerful foes.

[Gottheim]

While it's unknown what element exploding shadow clone uses, it is presumed to be Fire-natured.A reasonable assumption, but Deidara's clay bombs are all Earth-based. As for Itachi's clones, there never was any flames of smoke to suggest the addition of elemental chakra. The Databook entry (http://mangahelpers.com/forum/showthread.php?t=45328) doesn't say anything about it either.


Great Clone Blast (分身大爆破, Bunshin Daibakuha)
Ninjutsu, A-rank, Offensive, Short range (0-5m)
User: Uchiha Itachi

The shadow that is a threat
It lurses the target in and then bursts open!!

Luring the target in, using a "Shadow Clone¹" as bait. The target, acting according to the principle of "attack to bring down the enemy," falls victim to a powerful blast... If one can see through the body of the Shadow Clone, it is possible to evade the blast. However, by wrapping it up in trick after trick, the target will be guided into the technique for sure.

[picture of Itachi and his clone standing on the water as Kakashi pushes Kurenai away from the clone]
→↓A well-timed explosion. The size of the explosion is considerably big...!!

[picture of the clone's explosion]

¹ Shadow Clone Technique (影分身の術, Kage Bunshin no Jutsu)


What would something intangible (as I imagine Fuuton: kage bunshin) do to an enemy? I dunno.Create a small tempest of razor-sharp wind upon dispel, for one.


And by the way, Itachi was the creator of exploding shadow clone, so why would anyone else know how to use it?My point was that if Kage Bunshin is such a versatile jutsu, Naruto should be exploring this potential much more thoroughly. Kakashi could have taught him.


As for efficiency of time spent on training, I somewhat disagree. I tend to think that Naruto's education at the academy has been purposely sabotaged for obvious reasons. What Jiraiya was teaching him was general battle tactics, control over nine-tails to some extent and filling out the massive blanks in Naruto's education as a ninja. All in all, how to survive, being targeted by powerful foes.The village has been keeping Naruto down, yes. I can see that. But he was portrayed as a fast learner besides that. He was also characterized as unpredictable, and a quick thinker. Water-walking came to him almost naturally once Jiraiya "fixed" him, and it makes little sense for someone who learned the apex of Shape Manipulation (Rasengan: Jounin level, A-rank difficulty) in a month, to somehow need three years just to cover the basics. Especially now that an elite warrior was actually trying to teach him!

Barring any oddities induced by mental disorder, you'd expect anyone with a degree in quantum physics to know a thing or two about arithmetics, or learn about them very quickly otherwise.

[hibar90]

This is why Kishimoto is a mangaka and you're not. He knew that his characters must be balanced, and he knew that Naruto's power would consist of having the Kyuubi. Adding some random but powerful jutsus to his arsenal AND improving his ability to use the bijuu would be overkill. He also knew that Naruto is not a secondary character, so that we need to see him developing and changing. We can easily throw powers to Kakashi, Sakura and Sasuke, because we aren't supposed to care about them as much as we are supposed to care about Naruto.

Nah I think he was lacking inspiration or creativity to apply those what you called "random" jutsu on to naruto. He's way of fighting has not evolved at all. Still same old KB and rasengan spam, just more spam coz he's chakra is unlimited. What sasuke learnt during his 3 years with Oro is to emit element chakra around his body, shape his element charka, how to use a sword, kirin, tenten like seal to get weapon and use sharingan genjutsu. These are not display in part I. Sakura shined in sasori fight but then the mangaka decided that the manga has only 2 room for characters. But you can't deny her development as a nin (well she didn't have much b4 anyway).

edit: wind KB could be something like shred opponent by violent cutting wind upon destruction. Or push them away, or variety between the two. And ninja academy was not sabotage, all children learn the same old traditional way. Later they are going to be individually assessed by their jonin. Of course naruto learning ability is very inconsistent. At first he can't even execute a simple bunshin, but then he learn KB in one night. However, sasuke has been proficient at academy and that shows until now.

[kthy0056]

Nah I think he was lacking inspiration or creativity to apply those what you called "random" jutsu on to naruto. He's way of fighting has not evolved at all. Still same old KB and rasengan spam, just more spam coz he's chakra is unlimited.
I think you missed that part of my post that said the Kyuubi modes were his improvements. We saw him releasing the Kyuubi against Deidara, against Orochimaru, then again against Pain ...


But you can't deny her development as a nin (well she didn't have much b4 anyway).
Yes, but that's only the technical aspect of it. It doesn't matter how much a skilled shinobi Naruto is, remember that he's doing his own ninja way and that he actually wants peace, which removes the idea of ninja anyway. You would expect Konoha to raise his rank to chunin or jounin after doing so many things like hunting S class ninjas and saving the village. That doesn't happen though, because Kishi doesn't focus on that. He doesn't want Naruto to become a typical shinobi with many ways to kill enemies, but the exact opposite.

[hibar90]

I think you missed that part of my post that said the Kyuubi modes were his improvements. We saw him releasing the Kyuubi against Deidara, against Orochimaru, then again against Pain ...


Yes, but that's only the technical aspect of it. It doesn't matter how much a skilled shinobi Naruto is, remember that he's doing his own ninja way and that he actually wants peace, which removes the idea of ninja anyway. You would expect Konoha to raise his rank to chunin or jounin after doing so many things like hunting S class ninjas and saving the village. That doesn't happen though, because Kishi doesn't focus on that. He doesn't want Naruto to become a typical shinobi with many ways to kill enemies, but the exact opposite.

How is KB mode improvement? I thought without control of KB using its help is the most dangerous thing to do. And recently he has been going more than 1t because the seal was weakening. As Gottheim said if anything his control of KB has become worse.

Hmm I thought Naruto goal was to change the shinobi way of life so that they are not only killing tools, not to to make ninja unemployed. Assassination, infiltration, protection are all part of ninja business, that's how they earn cash. Why did he enter ninja academy in the first place? And naruto never imply that he wanted a utopia kind of peace. Peace can be obtain by the lack of war, terror and harmony. But to be completely utopia and no conflict, suffering or violence, I would say dream on. That's why we have military, law enforcement and in this case ninja. I think that's where Pain goes wrong.

He saved the village after he trained with Kakashi and SM, so it's outside the topic. But, his rank is irrelevant to his development since ninja are expected to do rescue mission and retrieve information. And don't think Gara is the only VIP there is. You also have feudal lord etc to protect or rescue. Considering it was naruto 1st mission after 3 years vacation, his two first mission is common for a team of chuunin. And I still see that naruto is still immature and do things his "own" way. I say no development after 3 years as ninja or person. Still old cocky ninja that won't stop and apologize if he's wrong or couldn't keep his word. After all it's really not his fault that he failed to save sasuke.

[Hojinmaru]

Not that the anime is canon by any means, but in the latest episode he actually makes reference to "that training" when he throws the FRS, perhaps part of the training contained how to throw massive chakra. Also I'm sure a large part of that 3 years was Jman recovering from his near death experience with the 4t Naruto. Which is why little improvement actually happened, he was force to work on basics because he was injured for a while.

[Wint]

Not that the anime is canon by any means, but in the latest episode he actually makes reference to "that training" when he throws the FRS, perhaps part of the training contained how to throw massive chakra. Also I'm sure a large part of that 3 years was Jman recovering from his near death experience with the 4t Naruto. Which is why little improvement actually happened, he was force to work on basics because he was injured for a while.

Nahh, he was shown to learn that part at Mt. Myoboku. Tree stumps and panting Naruto, ringing any bells?

[M3J]

Jiraiya and Naruto's three-year sojourn was to both train Naruto and keep an eye on him. Kakashi wouldn't be able to handle Akatsuki, especially with Naruto not being a good shinobi, so Jiraiya took him and taught him the basics of being a shinobi. Naruto's gotten smarter, is better at taijutsu, and he's learned some new stuff. Jiraiya was making Naruto strong enough to fight Akatsuki and help Kakashi fight Akatsuki.
Another reason why Jiraiya took on Naruto was to protect Naruto. Akatsuki was hunting him, so Naruto was in danger. Jiraiya told Kakashi he may not be able to handle Akatsuki, at least while protecting Naruto as well, so Jiraiya took him. Kakashi got taken down by Itachi, whereas Itachi fled from Jiraiya. So it does make sense Naruto didn't get uber powerful. He was taught to also be able to defend, not just attack.

[Rikudou King]

This is why Kishimoto is a mangaka and you're not. He knew that his characters must be balanced, and he knew that Naruto's power would consist of having the Kyuubi. Adding some random but powerful jutsus to his arsenal AND improving his ability to use the bijuu would be overkill. He also knew that Naruto is not a secondary character, so that we need to see him developing and changing. We can easily throw powers to Kakashi, Sakura and Sasuke, because we aren't supposed to care about them as much as we are supposed to care about Naruto. How was Naruto balanced? He spent the majority of time training. Anyway, giving him better skills and actually showing us his "improvement" with his Jinchuuriki skills wouldn't have been overkill. Let's use Sasuke as an example. He was one of the strongest characters around, Even before gaining MS yet that didn't stop us from getting some impressive fights from him. So there's really no reason Kishi couldn't have maintain the equal level between Naruto and still allowed him to struggle in battle, Especially since he would have been going up against the supposedly strong Akatsuki. As for us seeing his training so that we can care, A couple of flashbacks would have showed us just as much of his training as we witness of his FRS and Sage Mode training.

[Alexis]

Well i still don't get what were Jiraya and Naruto doing during their three years training. Naruto didn't learn any new jutsu - he still was using Kage Bunshins and rasengan. And Rasengan was made by clone. He was able to go to Kyubi mode with 1 tail.
The only thing i know is that he taught him mysterious "that" jutsu. Which he promised not to use. Maybe they were doing research together? :)
"That jutsu" is most likely the demon (fox) cloak. Same one Killerbee used http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/413/02/ He hurt Jiraya when going out of control, so he was told not to use it again.

As for the training, Naruto learned to cancel genjutsu, although it wasn't very effective against Itachi. And he improved his basic fighting abilities, and learned to use his existing jutsu more effectively.
I don't know why, but shounen main characters seem to often be stuck with one or two abilities for the rest of the series, so in comparison to Sasuke's training with Orochimaru it seems like he didn't learn much considering the time spent.

[Hojinmaru]

Nahh, he was shown to learn that part at Mt. Myoboku. Tree stumps and panting Naruto, ringing any bells?

That was him working to perfect it with sage mode, he just didn't think it up on his own. He was shown it by Jman earlier, and was told not to use it cause it wasn't ready yet. All that was shown in the mountains was him working with more and more chakra. Ring any bells for you? :eyeroll

[kthy0056]

How is KB mode improvement? I thought without control of KB using its help is the most dangerous thing to do.
It is still a power of his, regardless of its danger or whatnot. A power so big which pretty much owned the hell out of Orochimaru. It's not about the consequences and all that stuff, it's still an ability he has.



And naruto never imply that he wanted a utopia kind of peace. Peace can be obtain by the lack of war, terror and harmony. But to be completely utopia and no conflict, suffering or violence, I would say dream on. That's why we have military, law enforcement and in this case ninja. I think that's where Pain goes wrong.
During the Konoha invasion, Orochimaru said (I think it was him) that peace treaties are just a way to get your enemy without his guard up. So yeah, I think Naruto really wishes perfect peace. Something like abolition of the old system of ninjas, a total reform that doesn't cover stuff like murder and manipulation. That's my opinion of course, and it's not relevant to the topic.


But, his rank is irrelevant to his development since ninja are expected to do rescue mission and retrieve information.
No, it's not. As a genin, he should be able to rescue cats or walk some dogs. He's way past that, since he even taught Konohamaru stuff like Rasengan and Kage Bunshin. But what Kishimoto wants (in my opinion) for Naruto is to pass through all this shinbo bullcrap, and do the real thing, which is peace.



How was Naruto balanced? He spent the majority of time training.
Yep, which is why I said Kishi is the mangaka in here. He used is lack of abilities as a reason to train him further and add to him more screen-time. Instead of just adding random and hard-to-believe new characters, he decided to focus on the old ones, mainly Naruto.
He wants his story to have cohesion, to feel connected.

For example, his Sage Mode training. By doing this, Kishimoto did the following:
* made a reason for Naruto not getting captured directly by Pain
* explained some new techniques, mainly the Hermit mode
* gave Naruto some new powers

See? If Naruto had Sage Mode by training with Jiraya in those 3 years (let's imagine), the entire Pain Saga would have underwent some serious changes. The two would confront directly (because Naruto would stay in the village, having no reason to train anymore), the village would remain intact, many of the clues he used in battle wouldn't be available to him and so on.



Anyway, giving him better skills and actually showing us his "improvement" with his Jinchuuriki skills wouldn't have been overkill. Let's use Sasuke as an example.
No, let's not use Sasuke because he is indeed overkill. Not only he had so many new abilities (chidori nagashi, snake abilities, genjutsu), but for some reason, his eyes also can control Naruto's greatest power. Also, he gained MS after a few battles, which at the moment he currently masters.

Sasuke was overpowered just because Naruto should stay as an underdog. Instead of adding tens of new abilities to Naruto (which he never did have in the first place), he did that to Sasuke.
Just take the abilities each-one had in the first part:
Naruto: Kage Bunshin, Gamabunta summon, Rasengan
Sasuke: Different sorts of fire jutsus, Chidori, high speed
It may look equal, but it's not.



As for us seeing his training so that we can care, A couple of flashbacks would have showed us just as much of his training as we witness of his FRS and Sage Mode training.
Really? You mean like, entire chapters of flashbacks referring solely to training? The only really-big flashbacks of this sort were about Uchiha's background.

[Alexis]

That was him working to perfect it with sage mode, he just didn't think it up on his own. He was shown it by Jman earlier, and was told not to use it cause it wasn't ready yet. All that was shown in the mountains was him working with more and more chakra. Ring any bells for you? :eyeroll
Where was Jiraya shown to teach Naruto how to do that? I think the person you're replying to mixed up the scene where Naruto trained to perfect FRS at Mt. Myoboku and Naruto's training with Jiraya.


I dont think what Jiraiya said to Naruto was him forbidding to use "that" jutsu, I dont even think Naruto has a special ultra secret not-yet-finished at that time. I think he means "that power" as in, the Kyuubi's power because of what happened to Jiraiya and him giving Kakashi a special seal to restrain the Kyuubi chakra. I also believe, in the anime he said "that power" instead of "that jutsu" but, seeing my timezone, I dont have the energy to look it up right now XD
You are correct. In the anime it was referred to as "that power" (ano chikara). Anime isn't canon, and this was probably because the animators thought it would be less confusing that way. Though Killerbee has named his own demon cloak technique "The eight sword"/Number Eight.

[hibar90]

It is still a power of his, regardless of its danger or whatnot. A power so big which pretty much owned the hell out of Orochimaru. It's not about the consequences and all that stuff, it's still an ability he has.


During the Konoha invasion, Orochimaru said (I think it was him) that peace treaties are just a way to get your enemy without his guard up. So yeah, I think Naruto really wishes perfect peace. Something like abolition of the old system of ninjas, a total reform that doesn't cover stuff like murder and manipulation. That's my opinion of course, and it's not relevant to the topic.


No, it's not. As a genin, he should be able to rescue cats or walk some dogs. He's way past that, since he even taught Konohamaru stuff like Rasengan and Kage Bunshin. But what Kishimoto wants (in my opinion) for Naruto is to pass through all this shinbo bullcrap, and do the real thing, which is peace.



So you agree that his control over QB is worse, and he's not improved at all. Btw in this case he didn't own QB, QB had him. And how can Naruto be an underdog when he's a jinchuriki with all those chakra. Naruto is equally gifted as Sasuke. I never get the impression that Naruto was underdog after he graduated from academy. He had the same potential and compete with sasuke (top graduate), he just wasted those 3 years with Jiraiya.

I think you have made his goal/principle relevant to his growth and development. You said, instead of inefficiency and incompetence, it was due to his goal/principle he's not getting the improvement as much as other team 7.

First you mistaken my criteria for peace with peace treaty. Peace treaty shows only condition not harmony among people. It's a temporary condition to cease fire for a moment. Hostility and distrust still exist. A harmony could still exist between nations, even if a little violent and suffering exist left and right. A utopia is for dreamers like Pain and it's not the real thing. Naruto is different,you can say Naruto strives to improve living standard for shinobi. But, there are others that would emerge in the world that would want violence and war. Ninja would be needed for missions including to protect.

Apparently, rasengan and those A-S ranked jutsu doesn't make you a good squad leader and pass the chuunin exam. Yet, he was allowed to go under the supervision of Yamato and 2 chuuni. By losing control like that Naruto endangered the mission and his teammate. If konoha wasn't taking precaution by deploying Yamato (let's say asuma or gai) it would have been a total chaos. Thanks, J-man for all those 3 dedicated years with him.

[kthy0056]

So you agree that his control over QB is worse, and he's not improved at all. Btw in this case he didn't own QB, QB had him.
You're not thinking outside the box. We don't talk about the relevant Naruto universe rules, but about the general shounen manga rules.
Naruto is a typical main character, with a hidden and dangerous power. If you read Psyren or Bleach, you may recognize the same type of hidden power in the main characters (though not initially revealed like in here).


I think you have made his goal/principle relevant to his growth and development. You said, instead of inefficiency and incompetence, it was due to his goal/principle he's not getting the improvement as much as other team 7.
Yes, pretty much so. Someone who learns high level jutsus like toad summoning, Rasengan, Kage Bunshin, Sage Mode, is not inefficient.
Again, you're measuring it with a different sort of stick. In a plot (even action-related), development and growth doesn't mean just having new powers. That is why Naruto is better than DBZ for example. The characters grow, and it's not just about powers.



First you mistaken my criteria for peace with peace treaty. Peace treaty shows only condition not harmony among people. It's a temporary condition to cease fire for a moment. Hostility and distrust still exist. A harmony could still exist between nations, even if a little violent and suffering exist left and right.
I think what Kishimoto tries to show us is a unified ninja system. The latest shinobi alliance may pave the way for the universal peace Naruto strives.


Ninja would be needed for missions including to protect.
That doesn't necessarily have to do anything with a range of multiple abilities and such. He can easily protect others with just a few jutsus, like shown for many times.


Apparently, rasengan and those A-S ranked jutsu doesn't make you a good squad leader and pass the chuunin exam.
Apparently, he trained Konohamaru those kind of jutsus. What about protecting Sasuke and Sakura from Gaara? Or helping in the rescues of the Kazekage? Are those not big enough missions that he hasn't failed to succeed?
Honestly, Sakura wasn't anywhere near a good squad leader when she put Lee , Kiba and Sai to sleep.

Anyway, we're nitpicking. My point is that Kishimoto decided to shift the story into a different direction. Instead of making him uber powerful because of a multitude of jutsus, he decided to make him very powerful but with a terrible price (I'm talking about the Kyuubi). You may disagree, but that's only debating opinions.

[Rikudou King]

Yep, which is why I said Kishi is the mangaka in here. He used is lack of abilities as a reason to train him further and add to him more screen-time. Instead of just adding random and hard-to-believe new characters, he decided to focus on the old ones, mainly Naruto.
He wants his story to have cohesion, to feel connected.

For example, his Sage Mode training. By doing this, Kishimoto did the following:
* made a reason for Naruto not getting captured directly by Pain
* explained some new techniques, mainly the Hermit mode
* gave Naruto some new powers

See? If Naruto had Sage Mode by training with Jiraya in those 3 years (let's imagine), the entire Pain Saga would have underwent some serious changes. The two would confront directly (because Naruto would stay in the village, having no reason to train anymore), the village would remain intact, many of the clues he used in battle wouldn't be available to him and so on. What? Kishi doesn’t “need” to make up a reason to give Naruto more screen time. He’s the main character. And heck, Making him strong would have given him more opportunities to fight, Thus more screen time then the random shots of him training. And I don’t see how having Naruto train stopped Kishi from adding random and hard to believe new characters.

The changes to the invasion wouldn’t have been that serious. Kishi could have easily come up with another reason why Naruto wasn’t in Konoha to get capture by Pain. He could have been on a mission and returning to Konoha just in time, Like Team Gai had done. Or he could have even been away working on dealing with the Kyuubi and got interrupted. And explaining his techniques could’ve been done in battle like with the other characters.


No, let's not use Sasuke because he is indeed overkill. Not only he had so many new abilities (chidori nagashi, snake abilities, genjutsu), but for some reason, his eyes also can control Naruto's greatest power. Also, he gained MS after a few battles, which at the moment he currently masters.

Sasuke was overpowered just because Naruto should stay as an underdog. Instead of adding tens of new abilities to Naruto (which he never did have in the first place), he did that to Sasuke.
Just take the abilities each-one had in the first part:
Naruto: Kage Bunshin, Gamabunta summon, Rasengan
Sasuke: Different sorts of fire jutsus, Chidori, high speed
It may look equal, but it's not. My point was that even with all his powers, Sasuke is still able to be given challenging battles where he’s forced to his limits. So the idea of Naruto can’t be strong and still be challenged in battle is stupid. The whole point of going off with Jiraiya was to prepare for Akatsuki, Who Naruto would have had to eventually fight. So he should have come back t least strong enough to put up some sort of fight without needing more training.


Really? You mean like, entire chapters of flashbacks referring solely to training? The only really-big flashbacks of this sort were about Uchiha's background. Why not a montage with a few pages of the lessons Naruto learnt about peace and all that. That still would have taken up the exact same amount of space as Naruto’s present training did, Yet wouldn’t have removed Naruto from the overall storyline.

[joshua019]

that actually one of my question as well.... imagine if naruto has learned that using kage bunshin he can divide his training and he has done it for 2.5 years imagine how strong he cud have been....

[shaheer]

well i cant as in 2.5 yrs he should have been proportionately stronger in compared to the other 2...saske has a hole the sharingan so he learned faster what abt sakura ..if she improved so much Y not naruto ..this is fan servicing (in a sense) on kishi s part...try to amass all the pity and then give him radical powers ..only this time the fish is too old to buy and be satisfied with it...for heavens sake he trains 2 weeks or less and becomes stronger than Tsunade and beats Pain ...and in 2 yrs he wasnt strong enough to beat kakashi What gives

[Gottheim]

well i cant as in 2.5 yrs he should have been proportionately stronger in compared to the other 2...saske has a hole the sharingan so he learned faster what abt sakura ..if she improved so much Y not naruto ..this is fan servicing (in a sense) on kishi s part...try to amass all the pity and then give him radical powers ..only this time the fish is too old to buy and be satisfied with it...for heavens sake he trains 2 weeks or less and becomes stronger than Tsunade and beats Pain ...and in 2 yrs he wasn't strong enough to beat kakashi What givesMy thoughts exactly. Naruto's progression has been written very inconsistently, all for the sake of preserving drama. What prevented him from starting his Sage Mode training from the very beginning of his trip with Jiraiya? Then he'd have had years to master it, and it would have come off as much less of a last-minute plot device to power him up when needed.

These sudden upgrades make his long periods of incompetence even more unlikely, because they raise more questions than they answer. The biggest of all being the question that has come up several times in this thread already: if he can learn so fast, what is it that has kept him down all this time?

[RagingNaruto]

well naruto could effectively go up to 3 tails without losing control.


I knew I heard this before but never could understand why when Naruto went 3 tails against Deidara & also attacked Kakashi.

[enlightened monkey]

Alright. Enough.

"So what did Jiraiya teach Naruto for three years of his life??"

I dunno but if Chiyo had attacked Kakashi back in the day and Naruto had tried to stop her the clone he'd still have been trying to make wouldn't have been made and Naruto would have been planted headfirst inside the Suna hospital ward's wall.

Are you understanding where I'm coming from?

Just because Naruto didn't learn technique after technique doesn't mean he learned nothing at all. I don't know if people understand this, but he freakin sucked by his own power before the beginning of Shippuuden. Sure, he went wild whenever his boyfriend Sasuke felt like running away or whenever Gaara or Neji had a bitch fit but things like tajuu kagebunshin and keeping his mind in check whenever a single tail (just one measly tail) came out were a little out his reach without those best of conditions.

Jiraiya understood Naruto's limitations and, while having successfully taught him a technique his own flesh and bloodline created in a prodigially short amount of time, knew Naruto was not about to simply learn RAITON: THUNDER APOCALYPSE OF THE HEAVENS NO JUTSU!!!...and the forty two thousand associated jutsu in those two years. Instead, he focused on Naruto's main strengths: his role as a jinchuuriki, his basics and an above average strength to back them up, along with the ability to kagebunshin on a mass level at will.

What most people are upset about comes from Naruto's lack of battles against chuunin or even lower-jounin opponents in the second part of the series. Had he battled someone along the levels of Kiba's current ability, what I'm imagining is that not only would he have ended up winning (Naruto!! I just don't have the stamina to pummel all 1000 of you and the random ones that pop up with rasengans are REALLY starting to annoy me!! And get those other fifty to stop throwing shurikens this is unfair!!) but would have shut up a lot of disappointed Naruto fans.

Unfortunately, his fights so far have been with:
-Akatsuki member Deidara
-Orochimaru
-Kabuto (who it turns out is a freak of nature, prodigially)
-Pein (who controlled a bunch of people capable of mass murders)

....and he survived them. Another point that people forget is that Naruto started THINKING in Shippuuden. Counter to my own point (to remind people of what he's capable of), he'd gone about using 2, or 3 clones far more often than as many as he could pull out, as was his norm beforehand. Focusing tasks of 2 or 3 of your split personalities is much easier than 50 or 100, and his ability to make it above Kabuto without Sakura nor Sai noticing during the Sasuke Just Doesn't Care Arc was, to me, a great example of him not having 30 of him screaming he'll pummel his enemy to a pulp and mostly staying in vision of his opponent.

His genjutsu countering ability! Um, guys. I don't know if you knew this but Itachi is or was perhaps the most masterful genjutsu artist the series has ever seen, other than perhaps Sasuke current day. The fact that Itachi himself commented on any improvement at all (Naruto....when I tell you you're in a genjutsu you actually believe me this time...) goes to show that the child knew how to stop the process -- but clearly couldn't cut one of his weaker points against a supreme grandmaster of the art. But...why do I get the feeling that had Kakashi done that stupid I'm-Sasuke-and-I'm-full-of-swords-darnit-now-I'm-swirling-leaves skit like he did to Sakura at the beginning, Naruto would have had a good shot of things. I dunno. I'm pretty retarded, guys.
[hr]
Okay now to questions!!

-- Monkey, why didn't Jiraiya do the 1000 clone training method with Naruto!? What a moron!!

Yeah very moronic to avoid having Naruto turn kyuubified out of frustration, not have Yamato there, and vent said frustration on guess who. What a selfish jerk Jiraiya was.

-- Monkey, why didn't Jiraiya teach Naruto more techniques!?

Go kill yourself.

-- Monkey, Naruto isn't any faster and his taijutsu isn't any better than Part I!! Whats' going on!?

Naruto can keep up with chuunins and jounins and was capable of fighting both without being schooled by a 'master', per say. Ever. Other than perhaps akatsuki members, the guy that killed the 3rd Hokage and the guy that was talented enough to resurrect Madara's real body. Castrated. Madara was not happy but had to comply with Kabuto's request. Just because no one with pom poms is cheering for joy over his improvement in those areas of the manga doesn't mean he's a loaf incapable of going hand to hand with chuunin and even some of the more millgrain jounin, peoples.

-- Monkey, whats' with your name?

I'm a freaking monkey that got stabbed in the ass with something called a Shikon Shard? And now here I am.

-- Monkey, why does Kishi hand out Sasuke free techniques like candy, constantly have girls comment on his good looks and practices his sweet sweet action panels on the guy?

I have my own theories but none of them are age appropriate for this site.

-- Monkey, will I ever get the time back in my life that I spent whining about how Naruto got no techniques when he's now not only uber sweeEeEEeEEEeet but just pwned the Kyuubi??

The hell would I know I'm a freakin Monkey. Whats' time, anyways?

-- Monkey, does it make sense to say that Naruto being capable of making 100-1000 clones and them all being capable of Wind Cutter no Jutsu would be overkill at the start of Shippuuden?

Yes. Yes, I would. And I think this was an unfortunate turn of events Kishi had to grapple with.

[Askia32]

@enlightened monkey

Pretty much everything you said would of been Naruto's natural progression after 3 years if he didn't go with Jiraiya. You say Naruto thought more in his fights is wrong. He was just as impulsive as he was in part 1. Arguably he was more impulsive in part 2 because of the weakened seal.

Naruto survived Deidara because of Kakashi
Naruto survived Oro because of going 4tails in rage
Naruto survived Kabuto because Yamato was there
Naruto defeated Pein because of clone training/sage training, not timeskip training.

Yea, Naruto snuck up on Kabuto, he did the same on Kakashi with the bell training in the beggining of the manga.

With genjutsu, who else really uses it that he would potentially fight besides the Uchiha's?

Regarding the basics, this post says it best.


The village has been keeping Naruto down, yes. I can see that. But he was portrayed as a fast learner besides that. He was also characterized as unpredictable, and a quick thinker. Water-walking came to him almost naturally once Jiraiya "fixed" him, and it makes little sense for someone who learned the apex of Shape Manipulation (Rasengan: Jounin level, A-rank difficulty) in a month, to somehow need three years just to cover the basics. Especially now that an elite warrior was actually trying to teach him!

Barring any oddities induced by mental disorder, you'd expect anyone with a degree in quantum physics to know a thing or two about arithmetics, or learn about them very quickly otherwise.

The 2nd half of your post is a bit weird so I'll pass on commenting on it.

[enlightened monkey]

@enlightened monkey

Pretty much everything you said would of been Naruto's natural progression after 3 years if he didn't go with Jiraiya. You say Naruto thought more in his fights is wrong. He was just as impulsive as he was in part 1. Arguably he was more impulsive in part 2 because of the weakened seal.

Naruto survived Deidara because of Kakashi
Naruto survived Oro because of going 4tails in rage
Naruto survived Kabuto because Yamato was there
Naruto defeated Pein because of clone training/sage training, not timeskip training.

Yea, Naruto snuck up on Kabuto, he did the same on Kakashi with the bell training in the beggining of the manga.

With genjutsu, who else really uses it that he would potentially fight besides the Uchiha's?

Regarding the basics, this post says it best.


The 2nd half of your post is a bit weird so I'll pass on commenting on it.

-Naruto got pissed at Dei-dei because a fellow Jinchuuriki was strapped inside his pet bird.
-Naruto fought Oro and ripped off an arm in 3-tails, staying in a rather heated control, before snapping and going 4-tails -- a progression only possible under Jiraiya's ability not to die training Naruto to get to that stage.
-Naruto didn't even want to fight Kabuto and, if I may say so, probably would have lost! Not nearly as badly as he lost the first time he fought Kabuto though. This time, Naruto would have been sent flying with a rasengan!!
-I fully agree about Pein. Considering where the manga is now.

No, Naruto never snuck up on Kakashi <_< the jounin, being a ninja, not only played the act but ended up having Naruto do a punchout with a dozen of himself. Or half a dozen, I don't remember.

Genjutsu? I dunno, bud. The fact that others wouldn't have it on the level of the Uchiha sort of plays into my argument, considering the fact that Naruto not only has a massive amount of chakra to stop but knows how to stop it :) ... again 'knows how to stop it' as in he was doing just that. Something he'd have never done in part I.

Yea. He'd have naturally learned Oodama on his own.
Same with the tactics and stamina-saving methods he employed rampantly in Part II.
Same with 3 tails, considering almost every single jounin in Konoha would have easily individually been able to just absolutely SMASH down the 3 tails....oh, wait. Jiraiya was one of the only ones capable of surviving such an onslaught and training Naruto to stay sane while there.
No, Naruto could not just tajuu kagebunshin at will whenever he wished. If you noticed, he only did so in Part I under extreme situations (Kimimaro with his buddy in a casket, Gaara with Sakura in a sand equivalent).

Also -- umm, are you honestly thinking Naruto could have learned ANY of the skills he did in Shippuuden if he were still as base in skill as he was in Part I?

Oh and ummm...notice that for all the massive damage RasenShuriken does, Naruto still doesn't know squat other wind techniques. Perhaps you'd like to associate that with 2.5 years of Jiraiya trying his best to have Naruto throw a lake out his mouth? Basics, hm? Thats' exactly what Jiraiya perfected in Naruto -- his apocalyptically much-needed handling of the stuff most other ninjas that existed knew (how to not get eaten or crushed by a giant snake every time its' summoned but DODGE the thing).

[Gottheim]

I dunno but if Chiyo had attacked Kakashi back in the day and Naruto had tried to stop her the clone he'd still have been trying to make wouldn't have been made and Naruto would have been planted headfirst inside the Suna hospital ward's wall.And somehow it took Naruto 2 years and a half to work out that almost self-evident piece of wisdom? With the help and personal tutelage of arguably Konoha's greatest warrior of the time, no less?
That's a bit... underwhelming, don't you think?


Naruto was not about to simply learn RAITON: THUNDER APOCALYPSE OF THE HEAVENS NO JUTSU!!!Actually, "That jutsu" is implied to be exactly that. What with Kyuubi's chakra being needed to pull it off, and all.:amuse


...and the forty two thousand associated jutsu in those two years.I understand you're exaggerating for the sake of making a point, but isn't there a middle ground? He didn't have to come back as U-Sue-maki Godruto. But come on, he could have shown at least some variety. Look at Shikamaru: all he can do is manipulate shadows. Now look at the things he was able to do with that alone. Look at what Gaara did with his Sand. And this from merely background characters!
Naruto could and should have come up with a broader arsenal, if only by merely expanding on techniques he already knew.


What most people are upset about comes from Naruto's lack of battles against chuunin or even lower-jounin opponents in the second part of the series....or at least one Akatsuki or otherwise powerful opponent other than Pain. I mean a real fight, not some botchy scuffle against an already worn out opponent or a confrontation that has more to do with the demon taking control than Naruto actually doing anything.
Something that involves creativity, new strategies, new techniques... In a few words, something that actually showed what he supposedly learned over the course of his years of training.

The author could do it for Shikamaru, and he certainly did it for Sasuke. Generously. Naruto... got stuck with rehashing Part 1 material. It got the job done alright, but it also makes for dull and predictable reading. And one of Naruto's selling points was that predictable he was NOT!!


Another point that people forget is that Naruto started THINKING in Shippuuden.And we didn't see the results of that until the Kakuzu fight. The two preceding arcs featured him flying into a Kyuubi rage as soon as things got serious. Which makes Jiraiya's training look even more like a waste of time. Don't get me wrong, I really like Jiraiya. But the needs of the narrative dictated that he be made to look like a fool.


His genjutsu countering ability!I never really questioned this point. Actually this is the only part of your post that I agree with.:p
Nobody's going to look good in genjutsu whenever Itachi's around.


Monkey, why didn't Jiraiya do the 1000 clone training method with Naruto!? What a moron!!I doubt anyone ever considered that as a serious option. But Jiraiya should have been aware of the properties of Kage Bunshin even if Naruto somehow wasn't, and he should have told this to his disciple. Sure, Naruto wouldn't have been able to train that way until Kakashi brought in Yamato (so no impact on the narrative) but Naruto somehow never noticing (or learning from his master) reeks of last minute plot device insertion. It wouldn't have changed anything: just give a line to Naruto saying "Ah, yeah, that. But Pervy Sage said it was too dangerous to train that way!"
See? No need to stretch Naruto's idiocy to unbelievable levels to make it work.


Monkey, will I ever get the time back in my life that I spent whining about how Naruto got no techniques when he's not not only uber sweeEeEEeEEEeet but just pwned the Kyuubi??I can only speak for myself, but Naruto WTFPWN!ing the Kyuubi so quickly really stinks, IMO.
As does the handling of the whole Darkruto thing. Showing him struggling with his dark side in order to master the Fox over the course of the series (or at least for a little while) would have made for an interesting story. At any rate, it sure beats what we actually got, i.e over 200 chapters of unwarranted, pointless wangsting over Sasuke.:facepalm
Instead, the problem gets magically solved in the span of a few (manga) hours!
Throw in some extensive Killer Bee help and a healthy measure of Deus ex Kushina and *POOF* down goes the Kyuubi!!-_-;


Monkey, does it make sense to say that Naruto being capable of making 100-1000 clones and them all being capable of Wind Cutter no Jutsu would be overkill at the start of Shippuuden?See my point above. There is such a thing as a middle ground.:)

[Askia32]

-Naruto got pissed at Dei-dei because a fellow Jinchuuriki was strapped inside his pet bird.

Nothing but an excuse, not an argument.


-Naruto fought Oro and ripped off an arm in 3-tails, staying in a rather heated control, before snapping and going 4-tails -- a progression only possible under Jiraiya's ability not to die training Naruto to get to that stage.

He managed to stay in control for about 1minute before losing control. You really think that should have taken 3 years to learn along with basics?


-Naruto didn't even want to fight Kabuto and, if I may say so, probably would have lost! Not nearly as badly as he lost the first time he fought Kabuto though. This time, Naruto would have been sent flying with a rasengan!!

I have no idea what your trying to say here.


No, Naruto never snuck up on Kakashi <_< the jounin, being a ninja, not only played the act but ended up having Naruto do a punchout with a dozen of himself. Or half a dozen, I don't remember.

Kakashi was caught from behind than countered, not acting...


Genjutsu? I dunno, bud. The fact that others wouldn't have it on the level of the Uchiha sort of plays into my argument, considering the fact that Naruto not only has a massive amount of chakra to stop but knows how to stop it :) ... again 'knows how to stop it' as in he was doing just that. Something he'd have never done in part I.

Unless he uses it effectively before the manga ends, it really doesn't matter. Especially now that he will have the Kyuubi under control to help him with gengutsu.



Yea. He'd have naturally learned Oodama on his own.
Same with the tactics and stamina-saving methods he employed rampantly in Part II.

Yea, the same tactics he used and developed in almost every single fight. Naruto learned Oodama with Jiraiya, and FRS with Kakashi in Konoha. Which is better?


Same with 3 tails, considering almost every single jounin in Konoha would have easily individually been able to just absolutely SMASH down the 3 tails....oh, wait. Jiraiya was one of the only ones capable of surviving such an onslaught and training Naruto to stay sane while there.
No, Naruto could not just tajuu kagebunshin at will whenever he wished. If you noticed, he only did so in Part I under extreme situations (Kimimaro with his buddy in a casket, Gaara with Sakura in a sand equivalent).

Yea, especially when Naruto's first use of tajuu kagebunshin is when he first learned shadowclones, by himself I might add.



Also -- umm, are you honestly thinking Naruto could have learned ANY of the skills he did in Shippuuden if he were still as base in skill as he was in Part I?

Naruto learned waterwalking(which is advanced basics) in 2 seconds after the seal was fixed, Kagebuunshin in a day, summoning the frog boss in two days, rasengan in a week, and ninja basics in three years. You don't see anything wrong with that? And you think Naruto would not of grown at all if he stayed in Konoha for 3 years?


Oh and ummm...notice that for all the massive damage RasenShuriken does, Naruto still doesn't know squat other wind techniques. Perhaps you'd like to associate that with 2.5 years of Jiraiya trying his best to have Naruto throw a lake out his mouth? Basics, hm? Thats' exactly what Jiraiya perfected in Naruto -- his apocalyptically much-needed handling of the stuff most other ninjas that existed knew (how to not get eaten or crushed by a giant snake every time its' summoned but DODGE the thing).

No, but it would of been nice for Jiraiya to teach Naruto more of Jiraiya's very useful techniques. Or took him to frog mountain to learn sage mode after teaching him basics for a month(which is way longer than it should take with Naruto). Heck, maybe even another jutsu from his pops collection.

About Naruto not knowing any other wind techniques, I chalk that up to bad writing. Just like the constant KB and rasengan spam.

[shaheer]

Okay, so naruto is no new tech type fine..he doesnt need to be filled with a lot of Jutsus... but what abt speed..its that some kind of Jutsu? i am not talking abt hirashin ...remember when they met saske he just did a shunpou (well dun know how to describe it better) and naruto didnt even manage to dodge...if he wasnt the Jutsu type then Y not give him superior speed and strength...saske with sharingan was the Jutsu type he learned Jutsu and his speed was phenomenal...what abt naruto ....nothing HE STILL NEEDS CLONE TO MAKE RASENGAN...meaning his manipulation hasn't improved even ..
the argument that his basics was improved is a weak one..Jman took him to train for akatsuki does improving the basics ensures akaatsukis defeat? Akatsuki r S rank criminal..and J man was on akatsuki level or more so its not that he cant train naruto to that level as he is not that level in the first place ....
and we are always talking abt saske saske so lets give him a break what abt temari kankuro ..nauto was weaker than them....i am sure..and then what abt Gara...he was probably stronger than saske or just as strong ....... and in the same time period and no "one of the strongest known ninje of the time " to teach him

what i think is we need to E mail kishimoto this thread to show what we think of the 3 yrs skip :p

[Shadowthrone]

Naruto learned waterwalking(which is advanced basics) in 2 seconds after the seal was fixed, Kagebuunshin in a day, summoning the frog boss in two days, rasengan in a week, and ninja basics in three years. You don't see anything wrong with that? And you think Naruto would not of grown at all if he stayed in Konoha for 3 years?

He must have spent e majority of e 3yrs peeping at hot babes bathing with jiraya. Tat would explain everything lol

[purearab318]

He must have spent e majority of e 3yrs peeping at hot babes bathing with jiraya. Tat would explain everything lol

true and perfecting the sexy jutsu his most dangerous jutsu he used often against jiraiya and at one time against bee.

[tommax]

Comparing to him Sasuke improved so much, maybe manga was composed this way to show that Sasuke became so powerfull with his training under Orochimaru.
I think we will see more details from Naruto memory flashbacks. Or maybe "that" jutsu is so powerfull and tricky that most of the time Jiraya was preparing Naruto to use it.

I'm sorry WHAT jutsu exactly are we talking about? When was this mentioned in the manga? Could you post a link to the page and chapter where they are talking about it, or maybe when Jiraya tells naruto not to use it? Wasn't that the Oodama Rasengan? Cause I don't recall any "forbidden" jutsu…

[shaheer]

it was "dont use that power" and i think he was talking abt the demon fox cloak

[sentazar]

Nothing but an excuse, not an argument.

Naruto learned waterwalking(which is advanced basics) in 2 seconds after the seal was fixed, Kagebuunshin in a day, summoning the frog boss in two days, rasengan in a week, and ninja basics in three years. You don't see anything wrong with that? And you think Naruto would not of grown at all if he stayed in Konoha for 3 years?

No, but it would of been nice for Jiraiya to teach Naruto more of Jiraiya's very useful techniques. Or took him to frog mountain to learn sage mode after teaching him basics for a month(which is way longer than it should take with Naruto). Heck, maybe even another jutsu from his pops collection.

About Naruto not knowing any other wind techniques, I chalk that up to bad writing. Just like the constant KB and rasengan spam.

You are ignoring the training : it took 2 seconds for the water walking AFTER The seal was done. However he was still practicing the TECHNIQUE Before that. IE : playing guitar hero drums then real drums.

The summon again he learned the technique : didn't have the ability to pull out enough chakra without the QB until his life was in danger.

Rasengan he had already the first 2 parts of the training done. THEN said it would take a week to learn.

I still think its fucked up he learned next to nothing as far as jutsu goes or atleast thats what we've been lead to see thus far however learning is not always about jutsu. he learned jutsu and he seems like became more wise and grown up with the guidance of jiraya.....

That all being said theres still "That jutsu"

i cant justify a reason for not having him learn sage mode in 3 years though

[shaheer]

Rasengan he had already the first 2 parts of the training done. THEN said it would take a week to learn.

ok so a moth...A rank jutsu in a month ..and ppl are rambling he had no basics...how do you master the topmost manipulation move without basics.....
point isnt being more responsible..living with Jiraya and going place to place experiencing new things make one mature automatically......and for That Jutsu...its effects are blown out of proportion..i m pretty sure half of us after seeing it willsay....thats it ..the fabled jutsu......and the rest half will be cooing over it..and that group are the ones who are still saying Naruto learned a lot in 3 yrs......

[gnut]

he honed his skill sets period,remember the scar on jiraiya's chest.jiraiya mentioned naruto could control his thoughts in three-tails.maybe thats what took 3yrs was the fox training and maybe they would have been gone longer if not for jiraiya getting hurt.like i said also was it took minato 3yrs to perfect rasengan,yeah naruto used it after a week.but he was drained and kabuto didn't die,lets see him take a direct hit now.i don't care who it is even without the kyuubi's power,i mean look at deidara's fight with him he knew.i think that was naruto's first battle after his return to konohagakure.

[Rikudou King]

he honed his skill sets period,remember the scar on jiraiya's chest.jiraiya mentioned naruto could control his thoughts in three-tails.maybe thats what took 3yrs was the fox training and maybe they would have been gone longer if not for jiraiya getting hurt.like i said also was it took minato 3yrs to perfect rasengan,yeah naruto used it after a week.but he was drained and kabuto didn't die,lets see him take a direct hit now.i don't care who it is even without the kyuubi's power,i mean look at deidara's fight with him he knew.i think that was naruto's first battle after his return to konohagakure. Unfortunately, Naruto didn't display any real control while he was transformed. The Rasengan Naruto used on Kabuto was as prefect as the Rasengan gets. Naruto collapsed because of the internal damage Kabuto did to him, Not because he was tired. And Kabuto survived because he began healing before it hit him. There's no reason to think that Kabuto couldn't survive the same way now.

[Askia32]

You are ignoring the training: it took 2 seconds for the water walking AFTER The seal was done. However he was still practicing the TECHNIQUE Before that. IE: playing guitar hero drums then real drums.

The summon again he learned the technique: didn't have the ability to pull out enough chakra without the QB until his life was in danger.
Rasengan he had already the first 2 parts of the training done. THEN said it would take a week to learn.

I still think its fucked up he learned next to nothing as far as jutsu goes or atleast thats what we've been lead to see thus far however learning is not always about jutsu. he learned jutsu and he seems like became more wise and grown up with the guidance of jiraya.
That all being said theres still "That jutsu"
i cant justify a reason for not having him learn sage mode in 3 years though
What was your point in bringing up the technicalities?

Naruto seeming wiser and grown up would still be his natural growth after 3 years of growing up

[Gwym]

Sigh, what he learned in those years with Jiraiya we sorta have to make up. I agree with all the points Gottheim has made. I would like to pretend that perhaps why Naruto didn't learn much was because it took time to really work Naruto's body into shape to be able to tolerate very high chakra techniques. This is perhaps why Jiraiya attempted to release multiple tails. Other than that, I got nothin.

[M3J]

Naruto learned how to make a bigger version of rasengan, and he apparently learned the basics of being a shinobi, according to Naruto Wiki. I don't recall him ever appearing right in front of the enemy and saying "I NARUTO! YOU DEAD!!!!1" in Part II, and he was actually effectively hidden although Oro discovered them. Naruto uses scrolls with his weapons now and he's better at strategizing, like how he used a bunshin to get his real self out of Kakashi's kunai's way.

Plus, the databook shows his stats have increased; he's even learned enough to make Itachi compliment Naruto's growth.

[gnut]

with konan's flashback we see what jiraiya did with them for three years.just basic training,maybe that is his regiment.i really believe that they would have been gone longer if jiraiya didn't get hurt.

[Eprst]

yeah i would agree with most of the people - he did basic training with Naruto because Naruto was just a child back then. But still that mysterious "that" jutsu is such a big enigma. Jiraya said to Naruto once not to use that jutsu. Which means they practiced it many many times and unfotunately failed.

[gnut]

think it was controlling the nine tails to a point,maybe he came to the conclusion that he was not able to.maybe jiraiya didn't know about bee and how he took control of the eight tails.he couldn't have known about minato and kushina's plan to see naruto if the seal was to break.there was a thin line between him being a sensei and being a godfather.

[Oblivion]

Lets see:

naruto after the break is still the same airheaded goof who has no sense of tactics (see naruto and Kakashi vs. Deidara)

naruto can't dispel Genjustu (see Itachi vs. team konoha)

naruto looses more and more control of the kyubi in himself

all in all naruto isn't much better after the 3 years. jiraya didn't teach him all that much, he is still weak against genjutsu, he still has no clue of how to engage battles besides busting headfront in and his control over the kyubi is weakend.

besides "that" jutsu jiraya real didn't teach him anything at all.

hell even "that" jutsu isnt finished as of now.....hell what did they do those 3 years? it took kakashi and yamato to teach him about elemental jutsu, it took jiraya's death to mature him, it took the frogs to teach him sage. every major development to naruto happened AFTER the 3 years. NOTHING really interesting happend during the 3 years he "trained" with jiraya....

[gnut]

except he almost killed jiraiya,before he left he couldn't even touch a guy like jiraiya.he comes back and takes out an akatsuki member,he most definitely got stronger in those three years.as far as maturity,from 12 to 16 maturity couldn't have happened that much.especially in naruto's case,he wasn't serious about anything but becoming hokage.but at 12 that was only a dream now we see that it is a possible reality.jiraiya's death was his last lesson to naruto,that he has to really live up to his words"protect what is precious".

[Eprst]

Lets see:

naruto after the break is still the same airheaded goof who has no sense of tactics (see naruto and Kakashi vs. Deidara)

naruto can't dispel Genjustu (see Itachi vs. team konoha)

naruto looses more and more control of the kyubi in himself

all in all naruto isn't much better after the 3 years. jiraya didn't teach him all that much, he is still weak against genjutsu, he still has no clue of how to engage battles besides busting headfront in and his control over the kyubi is weakend.

besides "that" jutsu jiraya real didn't teach him anything at all.

hell even "that" jutsu isnt finished as of now.....hell what did they do those 3 years? it took kakashi and yamato to teach him about elemental jutsu, it took jiraya's death to mature him, it took the frogs to teach him sage. every major development to naruto happened AFTER the 3 years. NOTHING really interesting happend during the 3 years he "trained" with jiraya....

Haha you are right! They were doing "research" - i think "that " jutsu is becoming invisible and going to female bath then. Jiraya professor knew what to teach his new student!

[elitefox]

Naruto learned how to make a bigger version of rasengan, and he apparently learned the basics of being a shinobi, according to Naruto Wiki. I don't recall him ever appearing right in front of the enemy and saying "I NARUTO! YOU DEAD!!!!1" in Part II, and he was actually effectively hidden although Oro discovered them. Naruto uses scrolls with his weapons now and he's better at strategizing, like how he used a bunshin to get his real self out of Kakashi's kunai's way.

Plus, the databook shows his stats have increased; he's even learned enough to make Itachi compliment Naruto's growth.


But I think what people feel is that

Naruto's growth compared to Sasuke is way far behind.

So this comes too, is orochimaru a better teacher?

or Naruto is a bad learner? he only learned the basics of shinobi which was... I don't think fits with learning from a master in 3 years. Itachi complimented but not surprise.

In 3 years, Sasuke = sakura's growth >>> naruto.

So what is the problem?
Naruto as a bad learner or Jiraiya as a bad teacher :o

[Eprst]

Of course Naruto is a bad learner - didn't you forget how he was trying to steal ringbells from Kakashi :)

[mangakey]

But I think what people feel is that

Naruto's growth compared to Sasuke is way far behind.

So this comes too, is orochimaru a better teacher?

or Naruto is a bad learner? he only learned the basics of shinobi which was... I don't think fits with learning from a master in 3 years. Itachi complimented but not surprise.

In 3 years, Sasuke = sakura's growth >>> naruto.

So what is the problem?
Naruto as a bad learner or Jiraiya as a bad teacher :o

Sasuke was pumped up on drugs and what not. Not to mention Sasuke did nothing but train all day. I'm sure Naruto still had to do daily ninja missions for the village.

[M3J]

But I think what people feel is that

Naruto's growth compared to Sasuke is way far behind.

So this comes too, is orochimaru a better teacher?

or Naruto is a bad learner? he only learned the basics of shinobi which was... I don't think fits with learning from a master in 3 years. Itachi complimented but not surprise.

In 3 years, Sasuke = sakura's growth >>> naruto.

So what is the problem?
Naruto as a bad learner or Jiraiya as a bad teacher :o

Of course it's going to be behind. Sasuke's been called a genius- his prowess with ninjutsu, genjutsu, and taijutsu is on a higher caliber, and it doesn't hurt that he has Sharingan to help him learn new jutsu. Plus, Sasuke's been driven to work as hard as possible to get stronger, like Naruto, but Sasuke didn't need to be redrilled from the basics.

I think Naruto's kinda a slow learner compared to Sasuke. While he can be pretty smart, his attitude when he was younger made him stupid in basic aspects. <_< Sasuke's skills as a shinobi is higher than Naruto's honestly. The genin test proved it, though both definitely came along in their own way.

I get the feeling Jiraiya spent more time finding out how to dumb things up for Naruto rather than actually training him. <_<

[elitefox]

Of course it's going to be behind. Sasuke's been called a genius- his prowess with ninjutsu, genjutsu, and taijutsu is on a higher caliber, and it doesn't hurt that he has Sharingan to help him learn new jutsu. Plus, Sasuke's been driven to work as hard as possible to get stronger, like Naruto, but Sasuke didn't need to be redrilled from the basics.

I think Naruto's kinda a slow learner compared to Sasuke. While he can be pretty smart, his attitude when he was younger made him stupid in basic aspects. <_< Sasuke's skills as a shinobi is higher than Naruto's honestly. The genin test proved it, though both definitely came along in their own way.

I get the feeling Jiraiya spent more time finding out how to dumb things up for Naruto rather than actually training him. <_<

That is how I feel too, no serious training. Oh well, we can assume that Naruto isn't that inspired during his 3 years training and become inspired when he saw sasuke's growth.

then within only weeks, he gained more power than sasuke. So I don't think he is a bad learner.


Well on the other hand, even if Naruto wasn't taught more carefully... he was well protected during those times, and we see how easily akatsuki invaded konoha. better yet how kakashi might die protecting naruto and naruto as well.

[Son-Derling]

I think the porpuse of his 3 years training and not getting significantly stronger was because of his new ultra-fast learning skills invented by Kakashi to shine.

I would like to show you a drawing like this:

Sasuke is a fast learner and a genius from the start (like Neji)....

Draw a line with lets say 50° slope
A "normal" shinoby learns bit by bit...lets say draw a line between 25° and 45° slope

Naruto is a slow learner... so lets draw him a line with only 20° slope...but in the moment he lears the training method by Kakashi he is like a 80° slope or something like that.

So him nearly learning nothing in this 3 years was so he could shine later on

[elitefox]

I think the porpuse of his 3 years training and not getting significantly stronger was because of his new ultra-fast learning skills invented by Kakashi to shine.

I would like to show you a drawing like this:

Sasuke is a fast learner and a genius from the start (like Neji)....

Draw a line with lets say 50° slope
A "normal" shinoby learns bit by bit...lets say draw a line between 25° and 45° slope

Naruto is a slow learner... so lets draw him a line with only 20° slope...but in the moment he lears the training method by Kakashi he is like a 80° slope or something like that.

So him nearly learning nothing in this 3 years was so he could shine later on


yeah, and the hell with kage bunshin that takes a jounin years to learn for naruto learning in a day or two :darn

[Son-Derling]

then remember that exactly

he was a failure for bunshins in class and had to repeat a year (or two? or three?)...and learned a forbidden yutsu (kage bunshin) by a scroll

[elitefox]

then remember that exactly

he was a failure for bunshins in class and had to repeat a year (or two? or three?)...and learned a forbidden yutsu (kage bunshin) by a scroll

wahaha yeah

Sorry didn't think bunshin = any other bunshin :D
then sasuke can do rasengan in 1 day I guess

[licentious1]

According to the change in stats of the databooks for pre and post timeskip Sakura>Sasuke>Naruto>"other rookie 9".

Iirc Naruto increased in most categories but by .5-1.5, so he got a little bit better in everything.

[Eprst]

If i were Jiraya i would use Kakashis kage bunshin method too. I would make Naruto make Sexy no Jutsu and then kag bunshin of that. So then Jiraya would have full class of hot sexy blond girl students :)

[M3J]

That is how I feel too, no serious training. Oh well, we can assume that Naruto isn't that inspired during his 3 years training and become inspired when he saw sasuke's growth.

then within only weeks, he gained more power than sasuke. So I don't think he is a bad learner.


Well on the other hand, even if Naruto wasn't taught more carefully... he was well protected during those times, and we see how easily akatsuki invaded konoha. better yet how kakashi might die protecting naruto and naruto as well.

I don't think he's a bad learner as well... it's just that because of the way he acted and his habits at a younger age, it's harder for him to learn. When Jiraiya was training him to master the rasengan, we see Naruto admitting he should have paid more attention in class and should have focused more. Naruto can learn pretty quickly, and he can think out of the box, but it depends on the jutsu. It took him longer to master the rasengan than it did kage bunshin since the rasengan was harder. Not only that, but he came up with his own unique way and added another unique way: using two hands to make rasengan, and then using a clone to make rasengan. Minato, Jiraiya, and Kakashi were seen only needing one hand, but Naruto came up with the idea after knowing his weakness.

I still think Jiraiya taught him more than what was revealed. Genjutsu and that jutsu can't have been the only thing.

[elitefox]

I don't think he's a bad learner as well... it's just that because of the way he acted and his habits at a younger age, it's harder for him to learn. When Jiraiya was training him to master the rasengan, we see Naruto admitting he should have paid more attention in class and should have focused more. Naruto can learn pretty quickly, and he can think out of the box, but it depends on the jutsu. It took him longer to master the rasengan than it did kage bunshin since the rasengan was harder. Not only that, but he came up with his own unique way and added another unique way: using two hands to make rasengan, and then using a clone to make rasengan. Minato, Jiraiya, and Kakashi were seen only needing one hand, but Naruto came up with the idea after knowing his weakness.

I still think Jiraiya taught him more than what was revealed. Genjutsu and that jutsu can't have been the only thing.

hope so.

Setting aside the differences, I wonder if the one who taught him is orochimaru :o

[Eprst]

Jiraya definitely taught him some of Fuinjutsu. He knows Narutos heritage. So genetically he is just made for that type of Ninjutsu. Somehow Naruto didn't use it before because there was nothing to seal, but hopefully he will show some sealing abilities when fighting Kabuto :)

[GyoMasta]

Compared to the other members of Team kakashi, who were also trained by Sannin, Naruto's progress were the least 9 to say the least.

You could see that the genius of Team 7 was trained by the prodigy of the Sannin, as he went from elite genin/pre-chuunin to elite ninja throwing who was supposed to be Konoha's ANBU top member on the floor with ease at 15 years-old.

Sakura, who was soooo useless, became an excellent or quite good medic-nin(even though she's still progressing), learnt the super-strength jutsu and had more fighting training as she was taught by Tsunade.

Naruto progressed more between Chapter 1 and the Valley of the End than during 2 and a half year "hard training" with Jiraiya.

Konan, Nagato and Yahiko progressed more in 3 years training with Jiraiya than Naruto during the timeskip. those 3 came from knowing nothing, nothing at all about teh shinobi arts to being able to use elemental jutsu. They became genin or pre-chuunin (what ever) in 3 years when Naruto in 2.5 years didn't progresse that much and needed Kakashi to initiate him in Chakra Nature maniplutation.

Maybe was it indeed, as Son-derling posed, to show a greater progression for naruto in part 2, but he was still to weak in his progression compared to his team 7 team mates for the timeskip. Which resulted in that "learning Sage Mode in a week or less and fighting pain" super bullshit appear to close the gap Naruto accumulated for his slow progression.

[Franckie]

We saw the results of Jiraiya's training during chapters 291-296. Naruto did succeed in forcing Orochimaru to flee. With the fourth-tail transformation, Naruto had no problems overwhelming your "average" kage-level ninja after the timeskip

The actual problem is the style and presentation of Naruto's character. We were chiefly told that Naruto's improvements were immense instead of seeing them. When compared to the improvements we saw from Kakashi, Sakura, Gaara, and especially Sasuke, Naruto's improvements are lackluster. Naruto being manhandled by Deidara, Sai, Yamato, etc. for the first 100+ chapters also dampens the situation.

What hurts the character really bad is the wind training. Now the wind training started around chapter 315. Part II started at chapter 245. The difference is 70 chapters. Excluding the fight with Orochimaru, what the audience was primarily presented with was a couple of KB antics repeatedly abused from Part I and a bigger Rasengan. Now we saw some improvements such as not Naruto spamming Kage Bushin as he did when he fought Kimimaro, but what the wind training did was render obsolete most of Naruto's most notable improvements. His improved usage of KB? Rendered obsolete when Naruto pulls a new power out of his rear: KB's newfound ability to transfer experience to the wielder. Oodama Rasengan? Rendered obsolete with Fuuton: Rasengan and Fuuton: RasenShuriken. And that's not factoring in the disaster known as the Kakuzu fight.

Many of Naruto's abilities are also treated as one-time showcases. When was the last time we saw him send in the clones to simulate combat with the opponent? Kakuzu. When was the last time we saw the incomplete FRS? Kakuzu. When was the last time we saw Fuuton: Rasengan? Kakuzu. It's the same with several other techs. When was the last time we saw Naruto summon something? The Sannin fight, which occurred over 300 chapters ago. When was the last time we saw Naruto unseal a weapon? Well, there's that fuuma shiruken he used unsuccessfully against Sasori, which occurred over 200 chapters ago. And we never saw Naruto seal it, or anything else, for that matter. His training sessions also haven't changed the fact that Naruto's combat ability is still limited to close-combat. There's no reason as to why Naruto should still be unable to handle himself in mid- or long-range fighting after three training sessions (timeskip, wind, Senjutsu). Plus, there's the fact that Naruto is still susceptible to Genjutsu.

Being sidelined for so long, it's understandable for people to question what went on during the timeskip. The author had no clue on what do with him, or simply didn't care. I suspect it's a combination of both. Instead of seeing a continuing build-up of progression as we had seen in Part I, Kishimoto resorts to dumping metric ton of power-ups on Naruto. This fact is evidenced by Naruto's two previous training sessions. Naruto got a power-up by delving into spirit and overcoming Kyuubi while essentially sitting there for about 10 minutes. And before that he got Sennin Mode by sitting under a waterfall within a day or two. It's like Kishimoto had Naruto use the Hyperbolic Time Chamber from Dragonball because he had no other way to keep up with Sasuke and company.

[Eprst]

Khm... you might be right about the author not caring about Naruto. Basicly he made this time break to show growth of characters. Not neccesarily jutsu or mind growth. But body. The manga was going on for years but Naruto still looked like a little piglick - Kishi made him more like a man! :)

[elitefox]

Khm... you might be right about the author not caring about Naruto. Basicly he made this time break to show growth of characters. Not neccesarily jutsu or mind growth. But body. The manga was going on for years but Naruto still looked like a little piglick - Kishi made him more like a man! :)


by making Naruto a H***** after 2.5 yr timeskip

yeah he is in that stage but that is the most obvious growth though
Sexy no jutsu leveled 10 times
and rasengan at 2 times

I wonder if naruto can knock out jiraiya now with sexy no jutsu :D

[Asakujaku]

I wonder why Jiraiya didn’t take Naruto to Myobokuzan.

[anrufen]

naruto had really really weak basics...he won most of his fights in part one based on "Guts"....the probability of winning was always against Naruto. What Jiraiya did was strengthened his foundations so as to shift the odds more permanently in Naruto's later battles!

[Eprst]

I just saw teh anime - when Jiraya trained with Naruto - Naruto had 3 tails but then 4th tail appeared. i wonder how did Jiraya do this? Was he angering Naruto on purpose?

[kkck]

My impression of the timeskip was that naruto did indeed learn a lot. I mean, he had increased speed, strength and better tactics than before. Jiraiya did not teach naruto actual ninjutsu and whatnot for the most part however he did a great job in finally pounding the fundamentals into naruto. If you actually compare naruto's fighting style in the first and second part it is somewhat clear how unrefined and crude his technique was in comparison to now.

[Nonlife]

He jumped the gun a lot in the first half of Part II (only now when he met the REAL Nagato and from that point on does he have his emotions in check - well, to a better degree). To me, it seemed so little of Jiraiya's training was shown from the start:
1. One panel showing Naruto summoning a weapon from a scroll
2. One panel of Naruto trying to dispel genjutsu.
3. 1, 2, 3...5? panels of Naruto using the Oodama Rasengan

To me it seems Naruto didn't learn enough when we see how well Jiraiya taught Nagato, Yahiko, and Konan. (That could be due to Jiriaya recovering from Naruto's 4tail attack).

[elitefox]

naruto had really really weak basics...he won most of his fights in part one based on "Guts"....the probability of winning was always against Naruto. What Jiraiya did was strengthened his foundations so as to shift the odds more permanently in Naruto's later battles!


I like to be more positive, but the way Kishi is telling the story making all odds against naruto, just don't like the "underdog winning" style. he is bad ass now so I like Kishi to be able to show that Naruto to be mature.

[Smokes]

Man, there is no way to tell. But in the second bell test it looked like he'd spent a lot of time practicing on using his clones and rasengan. And there are so many things that we know that he didn't learn that would have been such a plus, like the multiplied experience from clones and his chakra nature and anything about yin and yang recomposition. Maybe someone should start a "what should Jaraiya have taught Naruto in the three years" thread. The longer the story goes on, the more of that stuff I think about.

[niblack89]

I just saw teh anime - when Jiraya trained with Naruto - Naruto had 3 tails but then 4th tail appeared. i wonder how did Jiraya do this? Was he angering Naruto on purpose?

The frog key that Minato used as a safe guard. With that anyone who signed a contract with it can open and close the seal if they chose.

As waht Jiraiya tough to Naruto were the basics. Naruto couldn't fight, he learned to control chakra better and He learned a bigger rasengan. Sasuke had the sharingan and was enhanced with Kabuto's drugs so of corse he sky rocketed.

I think the whole 3 years were for Jiraiya to teach Naruto *that Jutsu. It's apparent that *that jutsu needs the kyuubi but since Jiraiya saw that Naruto had no control over the kyuubi's chakra Naruto never used it.

[Nonlife]

"That Jutsu" remains to be confirmed (still sounds like a mistranslation to me).

[Rikudou King]

As waht Jiraiya tough to Naruto were the basics. Naruto couldn't fight, he learned to control chakra better and He learned a bigger rasengan. Sasuke had the sharingan and was enhanced with Kabuto's drugs so of corse he sky rocketed. Sasuke appears to have spent more time training by himself then actually with Orochimaru. Anyway, Even discounting Sasuke, Naruto still appeared to have learnt less then what Sakura or the Ame orphans did. Sakura went from barely a ninja to a pretty good chuunin who may have been better then her teacher at making poisons and antidotes and the Ame orphans went from knowing absolutely nothing to a highly skilled team while learning their elemental nature and special skills. Naruto simply went from a pretty good ninja to a slightly better ninja without really gaining anything new. In all honesty, Naruto was suppose to do like Sasuke and improve to the level of a high jounin in order to actually be able to face the group of ninjas targeting him, Not take several training sessions afterward to stand a chance.


I think the whole 3 years were for Jiraiya to teach Naruto *that Jutsu. It's apparent that *that jutsu needs the kyuubi but since Jiraiya saw that Naruto had no control over the kyuubi's chakra Naruto never used it. But could three years really be spent on learning a technique Naruto likely couldn't even train with? There's a limit to learning something you can't even practice.

[3c]

Being sidelined for so long, it's understandable for people to question what went on during the timeskip. The author had no clue on what do with him, or simply didn't care. I suspect it's a combination of both. Instead of seeing a continuing build-up of progression as we had seen in Part I, Kishimoto resorts to dumping metric ton of power-ups on Naruto.

I think there's more to it than that. The main reason for Naruto's lack of improvement was most likely because Kishi had several training sessions in mind, yes I'm giving Kishi the benefit of the doubt and believing he semi-planned ahead for the wind, Sage Mode and Kyuubi training. But that left him with a giant problem; With the immense improvements Naruto would go through during those training sessions, what on earth can he be taught during the timeskip without making him absurdly overpowered after all the training sessions happening in Part II? And as such comes in what you said; He probably didn't know and/or care, and so he made Naruto's improvement lackluster and excused it with Jiraiya failing to make Naruto control the Kyuubi, which we have to assume took up most of the two and a half years. Something which sounds completely absurd at this point considering how short all the training sessions have been.

Honestly Naruto's improvement over the timeskip is one giant plot hole, there's no other logical way of explaining it. During the Rasengan training Jiraiya said "I won't waste any time, I'm going to cram you up with power!", and he did so in only a month's worth of time. Now how on earth can Naruto come out of a two and a half year long training session and not show more drastic improvement? Both Sakura and Sasuke had amazing improvements in their respective fields, while Naruto was left with the short end of the stick.

Honestly I've been lead to believe that a large part of Naruto's training with Jiraiya was dedicated to pure bonding, and I'm actually okay with that to some extent. And to defend Kishi a little, it does seem like Naruto was learning "that jutsu" during the timeskip too as he knows about it and I suspect he has already done a large part of the training for it, but because of Jiraiya and Naruto's failure in controlling Kyuubi he had to put "that jutsu" on hold. Despite that and the other improvements Naruto made, which can be summarized into "overall improved maturity", it still doesn't explain why on earth Jiraiya didn't 1) tell him about the secret of Kage Bunshin, 2) Elemental training and most of all 3) why on earth he didn't take Naruto to Mt. Myobokuzan.

[Eprst]

Yeah i would agree that most of the time he spent with Naruto by trying to teach him that jutsu, and it looks like Naruto used "that" jutsu. Yes some of you say that he used the key to weaken the seal. But maybe Naruto went to 4 tails as a use of "that" jutsu?
Thats why when Jiraya reminded him not to use "that" jutsu, he said "I know". Which means Naruto understands that he is not ready to use it, and it will bring fatal consequences.
From the other side Jiraya already knew that Minato sealed Kyubi to Naruto with purpose to fight Madara. So thats why he was teaching Naruto "that" jutsu. What can it be such jutsu that capable of defeating Uchiha Madara? so powerfull that i doubt that even Jiraya is capable of performing it...

[GyoMasta]

But even with the "that jutsu" thing, it still doesn't make sense or explain how Naruto was so wea in his progression compared to the others and why, suddenly, he progresses at a speed truly superior to what seems to have been Itachi's progression speed or any other genius or super prodigy. Kishimoto really messed that part up with the development of Naruto's character.
As I and others said before, compared to the progression of the rest of Team 7, to Neji, to the other student Jiraiya trained, to the Suna Siblings, Naruto's progression as a shinobi reallu sucked...hard. His progression for the timeskip were, to take back 3c's words, "overall improved maturity".

He should normally have had the time to because way better after 2.5 years when we consider the kind of progression he had since his Tajuu Kage Bunshin training with Kakashi.




The frog key that Minato used as a safe guard. With that anyone who signed a contract with it can open and close the seal if they chose.

As waht Jiraiya tough to Naruto were the basics. Naruto couldn't fight, he learned to control chakra better and He learned a bigger rasengan. Sasuke had the sharingan and was enhanced with Kabuto's drugs so of corse he sky rocketed.

I think the whole 3 years were for Jiraiya to teach Naruto *that Jutsu. It's apparent that *that jutsu needs the kyuubi but since Jiraiya saw that Naruto had no control over the kyuubi's chakra Naruto never used it.


Sasuke didn't need to use drugs to improve that much, such a thing was only Sakura's speculation because she can't understand that there exist people actually way more talented than herself (just like she didn't understand that Sasori's and Danzou's mind were that of a shinobi), and because she knew oro and Kabu were strange dudes.

-Just look Neji who (as you can see in the 3rd Databook) didn't complte that many missions but is still the only one within the Konoha 11 who is Jounin, just within the timeskip. He was really talented and he worked his ass hard because he had a goal and knew of the way that leads to its accomplishment.
No drugs.

-look at Itachi, that monster was able to fight/defeat the Uchiha Clan, the strongest village's most elite members, in few hours, at 13 years-old, with no scratch. And who, without an inch of effort, defeated the genius of the Sannin, Orochimaru.

-There are other geniuses and really talent people that I don't need to talk about

-Look at the same Sasuke who, in a month of training with Kakashi, achieved what took years of hard training for Rock Lee to achieve and learnt a A-ranked Raiton jutsu. What word did Gai use to describe him? "Uchiha...", that's what he said. Gai clearly knows more about the renown talent of that Clan than does Sakura, her who only saw Sasuke and for not long enough.
Now imagine the results of 2.5 years of Sasuke hard training with someone like Orochimaru (more experience than Kakashi) with your filled will or revenge. Clearly the results will be, and have proved to be, even more impressive than the month with Kakashi.

Even Sakura, who was useless, managed, with wil and training, to become a useful ninja with expertise in medical ninjtsu/sceinces and look less useless that what she was before the timeskip.

But Naruto, who supposed to be soooo filled with strong will power and determination, who has such a potential as he's a jinchuuriki, who, just like his team members was trained by a Sannin didn't demonstrate any impressive increase between the moment he came back to konoha and his encounter with Sasuke. All the people above mentioned for their progress were clearly superior to Naruto in that zone (progression).




So the plot structure really is what made Naruto's improvement not so interesting and tried to close the gap with blitz super-progression training sessions.

To go from the worst in in the Academy (in your graduation group, that is) to one of the strongest genin in one year is a thing, but being able to fight Pain and "master the Kyuubi" in 7 months or so when you relativement didn't really progress that much after 2.5 years which led you to just enter the chuunin level... that's totally different. He didn't improve enough during the timeskip while others' improvement was more realistic and linked to their characters.

[Eprst]

Naruto didnt have that much determination, he still was sleepign well he didn't have depressing thoughts that will push him forward. Yeah the difference is that others were more matured. Naruto considered the training with Jiraya as a vacation i think :)

[M3J]

I think there's more to it than that. The main reason for Naruto's lack of improvement was most likely because Kishi had several training sessions in mind, yes I'm giving Kishi the benefit of the doubt and believing he semi-planned ahead for the wind, Sage Mode and Kyuubi training. But that left him with a giant problem; With the immense improvements Naruto would go through during those training sessions, what on earth can he be taught during the timeskip without making him absurdly overpowered after all the training sessions happening in Part II? And as such comes in what you said; He probably didn't know and/or care, and so he made Naruto's improvement lackluster and excused it with Jiraiya failing to make Naruto control the Kyuubi, which we have to assume took up most of the two and a half years. Something which sounds completely absurd at this point considering how short all the training sessions have been.

Honestly Naruto's improvement over the timeskip is one giant plot hole, there's no other logical way of explaining it. During the Rasengan training Jiraiya said "I won't waste any time, I'm going to cram you up with power!", and he did so in only a month's worth of time. Now how on earth can Naruto come out of a two and a half year long training session and not show more drastic improvement? Both Sakura and Sasuke had amazing improvements in their respective fields, while Naruto was left with the short end of the stick.

Honestly I've been lead to believe that a large part of Naruto's training with Jiraiya was dedicated to pure bonding, and I'm actually okay with that to some extent. And to defend Kishi a little, it does seem like Naruto was learning "that jutsu" during the timeskip too as he knows about it and I suspect he has already done a large part of the training for it, but because of Jiraiya and Naruto's failure in controlling Kyuubi he had to put "that jutsu" on hold. Despite that and the other improvements Naruto made, which can be summarized into "overall improved maturity", it still doesn't explain why on earth Jiraiya didn't 1) tell him about the secret of Kage Bunshin, 2) Elemental training and most of all 3) why on earth he didn't take Naruto to Mt. Myobokuzan.

I don't think the training wasn't fruitful. Naruto did improve as a shinobi. Jiraiya taught Naruto rasengan to give him more power to combat Akatsuki, but during the timeskip he worked the basics of being a shinobi into Naruto. We know he taught Naruto how to get out of genjutsu, which is a basic must for any shinobi, so it's not hard to assume he'd have taught Naruto other basics as well, like stealth and better usage of weapons.

We saw Naruto go with raw power in Part 1. In Part II, he usually thought before being as impulsive. Whenever he was impulsive, it was out of anger for his comrades.

Plus, Pain is the only serious/real fight we saw on Naruto's end. Maybe he has a lot more under his sleeve than just oodama rasengan, genjutsu escape trick, and better usage of bunshins. Methinks it's too early to judge.

[Biassed]

I think Naruto grew up as a person. His childhood was horrible and he acted to get more attention. After spending time with Jiraiya, he got matured and improved his combat skills. Well, he always had a knack for combats though. Naruto has been one dimensional in many areas. He still lacks knowledge of ninjutsu. He is straight forward and doesn't have much strategic mind. Some pple think Jiraiya might have taught him some sealing justu. I highly doubt Jiraiya even tried to teach him anything complicated other than Rasengaan. During Naruto's training with Kakashi, he din't know much about chakra affinity and manipulation.

I think Naruto became mentally strong during that time.

[elitefox]

Sasuke appears to have spent more time training by himself then actually with Orochimaru. Anyway, Even discounting Sasuke, Naruto still appeared to have learnt less then what Sakura or the Ame orphans did. Sakura went from barely a ninja to a pretty good chuunin who may have been better then her teacher at making poisons and antidotes and the Ame orphans went from knowing absolutely nothing to a highly skilled team while learning their elemental nature and special skills. Naruto simply went from a pretty good ninja to a slightly better ninja without really gaining anything new. In all honesty, Naruto was suppose to do like Sasuke and improve to the level of a high jounin in order to actually be able to face the group of ninjas targeting him, Not take several training sessions afterward to stand a chance.

But could three years really be spent on learning a technique Naruto likely couldn't even train with? There's a limit to learning something you can't even practice.

Naruto's Skirmish

3 years training with Jiraiya
Naruto becomes like a chunin level

after weeks of training with kakashi
Naruto becomes at least jounin level

after days/weeks of training with frogs
Naruto becomes demigod like

after days of training with kyubi
Naruto becomes between demigod like and god like since there are still somethings to expect


Sasuke's Skirmish

Training with Oro in 3 years
Sasuke becomes jounin level

Halted for the time being, eyes given by Itachi(since Itachi is the cause of his MS)
Sasuke becomes demon like

after a few days practice with Tobi
Sasuke becomes demigod like

after a few days, eyes given again by Itachi
Sasuke becomes godlike, halt of his powers(max out) unless he will go for the rinnegan, that is his max powers




For naruto, it must be very very slow learning at 3 years, maybe good foundation must be trained to him if we think very very very very..... positive.
[hr]

But even with the "that jutsu" thing, it still doesn't make sense or explain how Naruto was so wea in his progression compared to the others and why, suddenly, he progresses at a speed truly superior to what seems to have been Itachi's progression speed or any other genius or super prodigy. Kishimoto really messed that part up with the development of Naruto's character.
As I and others said before, compared to the progression of the rest of Team 7, to Neji, to the other student Jiraiya trained, to the Suna Siblings, Naruto's progression as a shinobi reallu sucked...hard. His progression for the timeskip were, to take back 3c's words, "overall improved maturity".

He should normally have had the time to because way better after 2.5 years when we consider the kind of progression he had since his Tajuu Kage Bunshin training with Kakashi.






Sasuke didn't need to use drugs to improve that much, such a thing was only Sakura's speculation because she can't understand that there exist people actually way more talented than herself (just like she didn't understand that Sasori's and Danzou's mind were that of a shinobi), and because she knew oro and Kabu were strange dudes.

-Just look Neji who (as you can see in the 3rd Databook) didn't complte that many missions but is still the only one within the Konoha 11 who is Jounin, just within the timeskip. He was really talented and he worked his ass hard because he had a goal and knew of the way that leads to its accomplishment.
No drugs.

-look at Itachi, that monster was able to fight/defeat the Uchiha Clan, the strongest village's most elite members, in few hours, at 13 years-old, with no scratch. And who, without an inch of effort, defeated the genius of the Sannin, Orochimaru.

-There are other geniuses and really talent people that I don't need to talk about

-Look at the same Sasuke who, in a month of training with Kakashi, achieved what took years of hard training for Rock Lee to achieve and learnt a A-ranked Raiton jutsu. What word did Gai use to describe him? "Uchiha...", that's what he said. Gai clearly knows more about the renown talent of that Clan than does Sakura, her who only saw Sasuke and for not long enough.
Now imagine the results of 2.5 years of Sasuke hard training with someone like Orochimaru (more experience than Kakashi) with your filled will or revenge. Clearly the results will be, and have proved to be, even more impressive than the month with Kakashi.

Even Sakura, who was useless, managed, with wil and training, to become a useful ninja with expertise in medical ninjtsu/sceinces and look less useless that what she was before the timeskip.

But Naruto, who supposed to be soooo filled with strong will power and determination, who has such a potential as he's a jinchuuriki, who, just like his team members was trained by a Sannin didn't demonstrate any impressive increase between the moment he came back to konoha and his encounter with Sasuke. All the people above mentioned for their progress were clearly superior to Naruto in that zone (progression).




So the plot structure really is what made Naruto's improvement not so interesting and tried to close the gap with blitz super-progression training sessions.

To go from the worst in in the Academy (in your graduation group, that is) to one of the strongest genin in one year is a thing, but being able to fight Pain and "master the Kyuubi" in 7 months or so when you relativement didn't really progress that much after 2.5 years which led you to just enter the chuunin level... that's totally different. He didn't improve enough during the timeskip while others' improvement was more realistic and linked to their characters.

For speed, blame it on kakashi to train only sasuke for improving base speed just because sasuke is his favorite :notrust

yeah yeah tunnel vision, wth, almost all ninja loses to speed now, without speed you loose, **** tunnel vision thing as an excuse for not training your least favorite student :blink
[hr]

But even with the "that jutsu" thing, it still doesn't make sense or explain how Naruto was so wea in his progression compared to the others and why, suddenly, he progresses at a speed truly superior to what seems to have been Itachi's progression speed or any other genius or super prodigy. Kishimoto really messed that part up with the development of Naruto's character.
As I and others said before, compared to the progression of the rest of Team 7, to Neji, to the other student Jiraiya trained, to the Suna Siblings, Naruto's progression as a shinobi reallu sucked...hard. His progression for the timeskip were, to take back 3c's words, "overall improved maturity".

He should normally have had the time to because way better after 2.5 years when we consider the kind of progression he had since his Tajuu Kage Bunshin training with Kakashi.






Sasuke didn't need to use drugs to improve that much, such a thing was only Sakura's speculation because she can't understand that there exist people actually way more talented than herself (just like she didn't understand that Sasori's and Danzou's mind were that of a shinobi), and because she knew oro and Kabu were strange dudes.

-Just look Neji who (as you can see in the 3rd Databook) didn't complte that many missions but is still the only one within the Konoha 11 who is Jounin, just within the timeskip. He was really talented and he worked his ass hard because he had a goal and knew of the way that leads to its accomplishment.
No drugs.

-look at Itachi, that monster was able to fight/defeat the Uchiha Clan, the strongest village's most elite members, in few hours, at 13 years-old, with no scratch. And who, without an inch of effort, defeated the genius of the Sannin, Orochimaru.

-There are other geniuses and really talent people that I don't need to talk about

-Look at the same Sasuke who, in a month of training with Kakashi, achieved what took years of hard training for Rock Lee to achieve and learnt a A-ranked Raiton jutsu. What word did Gai use to describe him? "Uchiha...", that's what he said. Gai clearly knows more about the renown talent of that Clan than does Sakura, her who only saw Sasuke and for not long enough.
Now imagine the results of 2.5 years of Sasuke hard training with someone like Orochimaru (more experience than Kakashi) with your filled will or revenge. Clearly the results will be, and have proved to be, even more impressive than the month with Kakashi.

Even Sakura, who was useless, managed, with wil and training, to become a useful ninja with expertise in medical ninjtsu/sceinces and look less useless that what she was before the timeskip.

But Naruto, who supposed to be soooo filled with strong will power and determination, who has such a potential as he's a jinchuuriki, who, just like his team members was trained by a Sannin didn't demonstrate any impressive increase between the moment he came back to konoha and his encounter with Sasuke. All the people above mentioned for their progress were clearly superior to Naruto in that zone (progression).




So the plot structure really is what made Naruto's improvement not so interesting and tried to close the gap with blitz super-progression training sessions.

To go from the worst in in the Academy (in your graduation group, that is) to one of the strongest genin in one year is a thing, but being able to fight Pain and "master the Kyuubi" in 7 months or so when you relativement didn't really progress that much after 2.5 years which led you to just enter the chuunin level... that's totally different. He didn't improve enough during the timeskip while others' improvement was more realistic and linked to their characters.


Taijutsu leads to the speed and copied by sharingan


when you say uchiha, what comes into the mind of people?

they are geniuses, no

what comes into their mind is, how to counter sharingan :p
[hr]

I think Naruto grew up as a person. His childhood was horrible and he acted to get more attention. After spending time with Jiraiya, he got matured and improved his combat skills. Well, he always had a knack for combats though. Naruto has been one dimensional in many areas. He still lacks knowledge of ninjutsu. He is straight forward and doesn't have much strategic mind. Some pple think Jiraiya might have taught him some sealing justu. I highly doubt Jiraiya even tried to teach him anything complicated other than Rasengaan. During Naruto's training with Kakashi, he din't know much about chakra affinity and manipulation.

I think Naruto became mentally strong during that time.

Yeah, does anyone think that mastering all elements is needed for sealing or you can do with only chakra control?

[Kuranzyan]

Chakra control is nothing but an alternate term for efficient utilization of the stuff, which incidentically involves tree-walking and water-walking skills. It can be compared to a refinery process.

Mastering all elements... That's hardly the case, since Jiraiya never even so much revealed any jutsu other than fire or earth natured, and yet he's widely regarded as the expert in sealing techniques on the 'continent'.

IMO, sealing techniques are more than likely connected with, if not based on the yin-yang 'theorem' alluded to by Kakashi and expanded upon by Madara/Tobi. There is a reason why the Sage of Six Paths, the (alledgedly) first one to perform yin-yang based techniques. The feat of sealing the Juubi within himself only serves to support that fact.

[elitefox]

Chakra control is nothing but an alternate term for efficient utilization of the stuff, which incidentically involves tree-walking and water-walking skills. It can be compared to a refinery process.

Mastering all elements... That's hardly the case, since Jiraiya never even so much revealed any jutsu other than fire or earth natured, and yet he's widely regarded as the expert in sealing techniques on the 'continent'.

IMO, sealing techniques are more than likely connected with, if not based on the yin-yang 'theorem' alluded to by Kakashi and expanded upon by Madara/Tobi. There is a reason why the Sage of Six Paths, the (alledgedly) first one to perform yin-yang based techniques. The feat of sealing the Juubi within himself only serves to support that fact.


The 5 element seal and unseal, I think you need all the different chakra to perform, though jiraiya didn't use all of them, to at least make 5 of the chakra elements just to power up a seal.

I still don't understand the yin and yang though, or how does it affect chakra, though I have one theory since sasuke has supposedly done it already.

[Rikudou King]

Considering the 5 Element seal doesn't actually make reference to the five chakra elements, I doubt you would need to know all five to use it.

[Kuranzyan]

Not only that, but I seriously doubt channeling five different elemental chakras on one's fingers is even remotely humanly possible, even among the laws-of-physics-defying world of Naruto. Otherwise we would've known already...

[Franckie]

I think there's more to it than that. The main reason for Naruto's lack of improvement was most likely because Kishi had several training sessions in mind, yes I'm giving Kishi the benefit of the doubt and believing he semi-planned ahead for the wind, Sage Mode and Kyuubi training. But that left him with a giant problem; With the immense improvements Naruto would go through during those training sessions, what on earth can he be taught during the timeskip without making him absurdly overpowered after all the training sessions happening in Part II? And as such comes in what you said; He probably didn't know and/or care, and so he made Naruto's improvement lackluster and excused it with Jiraiya failing to make Naruto control the Kyuubi, which we have to assume took up most of the two and a half years. Something which sounds completely absurd at this point considering how short all the training sessions have been.

Honestly Naruto's improvement over the timeskip is one giant plot hole, there's no other logical way of explaining it. During the Rasengan training Jiraiya said "I won't waste any time, I'm going to cram you up with power!", and he did so in only a month's worth of time. Now how on earth can Naruto come out of a two and a half year long training session and not show more drastic improvement? Both Sakura and Sasuke had amazing improvements in their respective fields, while Naruto was left with the short end of the stick.

Honestly I've been lead to believe that a large part of Naruto's training with Jiraiya was dedicated to pure bonding, and I'm actually okay with that to some extent. And to defend Kishi a little, it does seem like Naruto was learning "that jutsu" during the timeskip too as he knows about it and I suspect he has already done a large part of the training for it, but because of Jiraiya and Naruto's failure in controlling Kyuubi he had to put "that jutsu" on hold. Despite that and the other improvements Naruto made, which can be summarized into "overall improved maturity", it still doesn't explain why on earth Jiraiya didn't 1) tell him about the secret of Kage Bunshin, 2) Elemental training and most of all 3) why on earth he didn't take Naruto to Mt. Myobokuzan.

I doubt Kishimoto had Part II planned out in advanced, or if he did, he has made some major changes. Many Part II developments give the impression that they were conceived at the last-minute. The Sai and Pein Arcs are 100% pointless. We never got a "Year of Kakashi/Sakura". Danzou died with no contribution to the plot despite the multitude of build-ups we had for the character. Sasuke went from an anti-hero to a full-fledged villain protagonist within the span of a couple of chapter. Sakura became nonexistant after the Gaara Arc and is now a deadweight. The titular character, who was once the leading protagonist, is now reduced to a supporting protagonist in regards to Sasuke. Etc. etc.

Much of Naruto's problems would have been avoided had Kishimoto planned stuff out in advance:

- The secret of Kage Bushin? Kishimoto could have avoided this problem by doing something such as having Naruto invent/learn a KB-variation that grants this ability.
- Elemental training? Kishimoto actually answered this point. Elemental training can take any number of years to accomplish. Just the leaf-cutting exercise alone generally takes six months. Jiraiya was preparing Naruto to stave-off kage-level shinobi and he only had a couple of years to do it. Focusing on Kyuubi instead of elemental training would yield better results, which we saw during vs Orochimaru. Even if you factor in Naruto training with Tajuu Kage Bushin, this method of training requires Yamato.
- Senjutsu? Nothing to say here. You're 100% right about the matter.

Your point about Naruto's improvements being lackluster when compared to others also ties into my argument that the chief problem with the character is the style and presentation of the character. Here's a simple example: When was the last time Naruto summoned anything? During the Pein fight? No. Shima and Fukasaku did the summoning for Naruto. The last time Naruto actually summoned a toad was during the Sannin fight, which was around chapter 160. In other words, 350+ chapters ago! The author has had plenty of chances to have Naruto summon something since then, but never opted for it. For instance, Kishimoto could have had Naruto do something like this (http://www.mangareader.net/93-372-16/naruto/chapter-367.html) when he had Naruto and company infiltrating Oro's lair.

The only explanation for Naruto's handling - as well as the rest of the trainwreck that is Part II - is bad writing.


I don't think the training wasn't fruitful. Naruto did improve as a shinobi. Jiraiya taught Naruto rasengan to give him more power to combat Akatsuki, but during the timeskip he worked the basics of being a shinobi into Naruto. We know he taught Naruto how to get out of genjutsu, which is a basic must for any shinobi, so it's not hard to assume he'd have taught Naruto other basics as well, like stealth and better usage of weapons.

We saw Naruto go with raw power in Part 1. In Part II, he usually thought before being as impulsive. Whenever he was impulsive, it was out of anger for his comrades.

Plus, Pain is the only serious/real fight we saw on Naruto's end. Maybe he has a lot more under his sleeve than just oodama rasengan, genjutsu escape trick, and better usage of bunshins. Methinks it's too early to judge.

Naruto was already well above chuunin-level strength by the end of Part I. Naruto did improve on his basics during the timeskip, but there's nothing to suggest that any of these improvements were significant. At best, Naruto came back at the lower end of the jounin spectrum.

Serious/real fights aren't always needed to showcase improvement. In Naruto's case, it'd actually be best to showcase the extent of his new abilities gradually because he has more screentime than anyone else, which is what the author did. It turns out though Naruto had only one significant improvement: KN4. Since then, Naruto hasn't showcased anything else that he picked up during the timeskip. Even the Pein fight is guilty of this. The only thing Naruto showed that ties in with the timeskip is him almost going 100% bijuu.

[GyoMasta]

Naruto's Skirmish

[GyoMasta quote]

For speed, blame it on kakashi to train only sasuke for improving base speed just because sasuke is his favorite :notrust

yeah yeah tunnel vision, wth, almost all ninja loses to speed now, without speed you loose, **** tunnel vision thing as an excuse for not training your least favorite student :blink
<hr noshade size="1">



Taijutsu leads to the speed and copied by sharingan


when you say uchiha, what comes into the mind of people?

they are geniuses, no

what comes into their mind is, how to counter sharingan :p
<hr noshade size="1">



Blaming Kakashi for training his favorite student is lame excuse. Kakashi spent 1 month on focused training with Sasuke. Jiraiya spent 30 months focusing on training Naruto. There's a major difference and Naruto was really less impressive.
Even Sakura, the dead meat of the group, progressed more training under Tsunade during teh timeskip than Naruto during that same period.
Naruto's progression under Jiraiya was more imprressive and interesting during the month or 2 he spent with him in part 1, as he started training to use Kyuubi's chakra and teaching him Rasengan.

And Uchiha are recognized for more than just being Sharingan wielders. It's not like they're good only because of it.

[3c]

Your point about Naruto's improvements being lackluster when compared to others also ties into my argument that the chief problem with the character is the style and presentation of the character.
------
The only explanation for Naruto's handling - as well as the rest of the trainwreck that is Part II - is bad writing.

I didn't really disagree with you. I actually agreed with almost all of your post except that I gave Kishi a small benefit of the doubt (which serves him no good anyway). Because really, it's just as you said and which I agreed with, the reason for this giant mess is because of bad writing but most of all bad planning.

One can only speculate what went through Kishi's mind at that time. I still laugh whenever I see the WSJ cover of Naruto's grand return with Part II - "The boy's growth has surpassed all imagination!!" (http://www.cloudmanga.com/Naruto/245/#1) Wait what? Someone must have seriously mistyped there. Despite all the bad planning I still don't think it's unreasonable that Kishi had some tiny ideas about Naruto's future growth. Just rough ideas like "I'll make him learn the Wind element", not detailed at all. But that still doesn't save Naruto from coming out of the timeskip far below our expectations power wise, or why Kishi made the story go as it did. Because when it's reflected upon afterwards it makes no senseit and looks like one giant plot hole when Jiraiya didn't teach him about the Kage Bunshin's experience transfer and take him to Mt. Myobokuzan which would have boosted Naruto far above anything else. Good point about the wind training, it's true that Jiraiya most likely couldn't risk such a method, this is something I surprisingly never realized.

[gnut]

i've posted 2 or 3 times that i think he was trying to have naruto control the QB's chakra.but the more i think about their situation,he was being in his life and seeing kushina and minato again thru naruto.remember he wasn't there that night,don't get me wrong jiraiya was protecting naruto first but isn't that what family does.i believe they were working on the kyubi training the only way jiraiya knew how"straight forward"and it backfired...he got hurt,recovered...then they came home.but he taught naruto morals and beliefs and to stand by them hince the WILL OF FIRE.i think he may have been alittle leanient with him because he didn't know how deep akatsuki was.... pein.but we see now that naruto is like a sponge so whatever Jman gave him as a lesson he would have found a way to soak it up:narutokyu

[gnut]

hey Elite i seen you on the gantz forum,i luv me some naruto but i'm in love with GANTZ.welcome aboard.back to subject,kakashi may have wanted to train naruto fearing sasuke would go this route by getting stronger.but jiraiya showed up,family first;i truly believe that kakashi is going to be a village elder in the end.he has always been by naruto's side in battle,just think.during the deidara fight,during the kakazu fight and when he showed up to save sakura from sasuke...guess who was there...kakashi.this is his new sensei reguardless if he is hokage or not....kinda like minato with sarutobi.sons rarely stray from their fathers teachings.....naruto being an orphan he has a lot of father figures.

i think jiraiya didn't know properly how to train naruto in QB arts and he got wasted.his recovery may have played a role but i think naruto would have atleast been versed in toad summons.maybe even introduce to sage mode but kishi made it known that jiraiya was hurt badly by naruto.jiraiya even said that he came close to dying twice....by tsunade and naruto.

which is crazy,he died by pein but naruto almost took him out at 13yrs old...

[M3J]

I didn't really disagree with you. I actually agreed with almost all of your post except that I gave Kishi a small benefit of the doubt (which serves him no good anyway). Because really, it's just as you said and which I agreed with, the reason for this giant mess is because of bad writing but most of all bad planning.

One can only speculate what went through Kishi's mind at that time. I still laugh whenever I see the WSJ cover of Naruto's grand return with Part II - "The boy's growth has surpassed all imagination!!" (http://www.cloudmanga.com/Naruto/245/#1) Wait what? Someone must have seriously mistyped there. Despite all the bad planning I still don't think it's unreasonable that Kishi had some tiny ideas about Naruto's future growth. Just rough ideas like "I'll make him learn the Wind element", not detailed at all. But that still doesn't save Naruto from coming out of the timeskip far below our expectations power wise, or why Kishi made the story go as it did. Because when it's reflected upon afterwards it makes no senseit and looks like one giant plot hole when Jiraiya didn't teach him about the Kage Bunshin's experience transfer and take him to Mt. Myobokuzan which would have boosted Naruto far above anything else. Good point about the wind training, it's true that Jiraiya most likely couldn't risk such a method, this is something I surprisingly never realized.

I think the reason why Jiraiya didn't pack too much power in Naruto was probably because he didn't want him to get so strong. When he and Tsunade were talking before Jiraiya's mission to Amegakure, it sounded like they/he/she regretted making Naruto stronger or something. Jiraiya did say he shouldn't have taught Naruto rasengan.

[gnut]

maybe the rasegan comment was about naruto not knowing his father.maybe that is the kinda talk the third didn't want about naruto and his whole situation as jinchuriki to konoha...

[Rikudou King]

- Elemental training? Kishimoto actually answered this point. Elemental training can take any number of years to accomplish. Just the leaf-cutting exercise alone generally takes six months. Jiraiya was preparing Naruto to stave-off kage-level shinobi and he only had a couple of years to do it. Focusing on Kyuubi instead of elemental training would yield better results, which we saw during vs Orochimaru. Even if you factor in Naruto training with Tajuu Kage Bushin, this method of training requires Yamato. I question this reasoning. Jiraiya trained two children in elemental manipulation in just three years while also training them and a third in other areas. Even if we discount Nagato because of the Rinnegan, There's still Yahiko as proof that it could be done in just a few years. Regardless of his intelligences, Naruto was skill far ahead of their level and should at least have been able to learn the basics of it. A child with previous knowledge should have been far easier then three children with no knowledge.

Also, The only reason Naruto's training required Yamato was because Jiraiya loosen the seal in the first place, So they wouldn't have needed Yamato before that.

[elitefox]

hey Elite i seen you on the gantz forum,i luv me some naruto but i'm in love with GANTZ.welcome aboard.back to subject,kakashi may have wanted to train naruto fearing sasuke would go this route by getting stronger.but jiraiya showed up,family first;i truly believe that kakashi is going to be a village elder in the end.he has always been by naruto's side in battle,just think.during the deidara fight,during the kakazu fight and when he showed up to save sakura from sasuke...guess who was there...kakashi.this is his new sensei reguardless if he is hokage or not....kinda like minato with sarutobi.sons rarely stray from their fathers teachings.....naruto being an orphan he has a lot of father figures.

i think jiraiya didn't know properly how to train naruto in QB arts and he got wasted.his recovery may have played a role but i think naruto would have atleast been versed in toad summons.maybe even introduce to sage mode but kishi made it known that jiraiya was hurt badly by naruto.jiraiya even said that he came close to dying twice....by tsunade and naruto.

which is crazy,he died by pein but naruto almost took him out at 13yrs old...

Most likely training a 10 year old kid to use a e=mc2 is not the what to go lol, it was 50 50 and I think Jiraiya lost since it is quite hard to control and the only thing that counter hate is love. The kid is gifted, what can I say :D Luck is on side of naruto even if he isn't that well loved at before he reach his teens

[3c]

I think the reason why Jiraiya didn't pack too much power in Naruto was probably because he didn't want him to get so strong. When he and Tsunade were talking before Jiraiya's mission to Amegakure, it sounded like they/he/she regretted making Naruto stronger or something. Jiraiya did say he shouldn't have taught Naruto rasengan.

That makes absolutely no sense whatsoever. Jiraiya's purpose for training Naruto during the timeskip was to prepare him to fend of Akatsuki by himself(!). The Rasengan comment was more about Jiraiya feeling nostalgic and like he was training Minato all over again which leads back to his regret of not being able to save him from his fate. Jiraiya wanted to cram Naruto full of power, what does him wanting to teach Naruto full Kyuubi control tell you? There's not much that can beat that power wise. Jiraiya tried to teach Naruto one of his best chances of quickly becoming absurdly powerful but failed. However it's unreasonable that it took almost the whole timeskip. The rest is a piece of cake for Naruto to have learned. Oodama Rasengan? Probably didn't take that long (a month or two max?), it's just a bigger Rasengan. All the rest is basically "overall improved basics and maturity" which really is something that should come naturally over the years Naruto was training. Meaning that is something Naruto actively picked up/improved every time he was training but not something he specifically dedicated his time to like Oodama Rasengan and Kyuubi training.

[Franckie]

I question this reasoning. Jiraiya trained two children in elemental manipulation in just three years while also training them and a third in other areas. Even if we discount Nagato because of the Rinnegan, There's still Yahiko as proof that it could be done in just a few years. Regardless of his intelligences, Naruto was skill far ahead of their level and should at least have been able to learn the basics of it. A child with previous knowledge should have been far easier then three children with no knowledge.

It took the orphans working together collectively to defeat a Jiraiya KB, and they needed 3 years to do that. Jiraiya could also take his time and train them properly. That wasn't the case with Naruto. Jiraiya only had a couple of years to train chuunin-level Naruto to stave off kage-level opponents. Which sounds better to you?

A: Teach the basics of elemental recompisition knowing it'll do squat to Naruto's future opponents.
B: Teach Naruto how to better control the Kyuubi's chakra knowing it might help Naruto stave off kage-level threats.

Hint: It isn't A.

Keep in mind too that before Part II, Kyuubi had yet to be a hindrance. Kyuubi training proved vital in Naruto's fights with Neji and Gaara. Early on Naruto had shown signs of being an adequate Jinchuuriki. Hiruzen, for example, was astounded that Naruto was actually able to control the Kyuubi's chakra during vs Neji. Jiraiya would have had similar thoughts as well. Focusing on Kyuubi was the rational thing to do.

We also have the results to contend with. A three-tailed Naruto made short work of Kabuto and was able to damage Orochimaru. When Naruto grew a fourth-tail, he succeeded in forcing Orochimaru to flee. Both Orochimaru and Kabuto pointed out Naruto's development as a jinchuuriki was remarkable. The training did pave off.

Where everything fell apart was the execution. Naruto was made to look incompetent before, during, and after the Orochimaru fight. Even now the author continues making Naruto look incompetent.


Also, The only reason Naruto's training required Yamato was because Jiraiya loosen the seal in the first place, So they wouldn't have needed Yamato before that.

The amount of Kyuubi chakra that this method of training requires is the amount you find when Naruto starts sprouting tails. And Naruto's chakra is disturbed when he starts transforming into his bijuu. This is the actual reason Naruto needs a co-pilot like Yamato in order to use Tajuu Kage Bushin to the extent he did during the wind training.

[kkck]

IMO Jiraiya taught naruto as much as naruto could handle. So basically any limitation on the training was naruto's fault. Even when part 2 ended naruto had several flaws in his overall fighting style. He was crude, unrefined and sucked at even the fundamentals. It was a combination of kyubi, willpower, a tad of creativity and a little dumb luck that allowed naruto to tank through some issues other ninja would have had to tackle using strategy, refined techniques and sheer skill. While sasuke was learning advanced ninja techniques from orochimaru, jiraiya was quite literally pounding the fundamentals into naruto and he did succeed in mastering them. That's why sasuke seemed to have had grown more during the timeskip, sasuke had mastered the stuff jiraiya had to teach naruto probably before he even left the academy.

[SenninSage]

I'm pretty certain Jiraiya taught Naruto "that jutsu", or tried to better teach him to master a technique he already possessed, but didn't fully master. Maybe Jiraiya knew it was capable of much more.

The proof throughout the manga is obvious that Naruto was in the process of at least learning whatever jutsu Jiraiya spoke of before his fight against Pain. Even the scroll toad stated that Naruto acquiring this key would be his way towards mastering "that jutsu"

Mastering it? Seems to me like Naruto may have already had it, and even used it before. You know what? I think we've all seen that jutsu before. It's that special chakra arm manifestation ability we've seen him use before. We do all realize that Naruto was controlling it at will against Orochimaru right? He was using it to continue after Orochimaru when he was utilizing 3 tails.

http://haven-reader.net/manga/Naruto/Chapter%20292%20-%20The%20Third%20Tail/v33_ch292_UK_page_11.png

http://haven-reader.net/manga/Naruto/Chapter%20292%20-%20The%20Third%20Tail/v33_ch292_UK_page_12.png

That technique is basically an absolute defense for him. We saw how it protected him from Sasuke's katon technique in their battle at the VOTE.

http://haven-reader.net/manga/Naruto/Chapter%20231%20-%20Special/naruto_ch231_p10.png

I suspect he has access to it now in his Rikudou Form, but we haven't seen what it has fully developed into just yet. How exactly do we know those chakra arm things aren't a manifestation of a very similar looking ability in Naruto to what Kushina appeared to possess, with her special chakra chains?

Even during 4 tail mode, he was unconsciously controlling the technique. I think it's a technique that responds to Naruto's desires, as did Kushina's chakra chains. I believe she could use them for more than just restraining the Kyuubi. I think she could attack with those chains as well if she really wanted to, it only makes sense.

I wouldn't be surprised in the least if it didn't have to even be chains in Kushina's case, it's just what she desired for the chakra to look like.

Against Sasuke, when the chakra was seemingly attacking on its own. Some might think it was the Kyuubi doing that, but I believe it wasn't. I believe it was Naruto's chakra simply reacting to his desires regardless of what his physical body was doing. He wanted to hit Sasuke, he missed with his fist, so the Kyuubi chakra surrounding him acted upon his desires.

Want my further proof of this fact? How the hell would the Kyuubi know to aide Naruto in performing a Rasengan, it makes no sense. The chakra simply responded to Naruto's desire. He technically required another hand to help him form a powerful rasengan, since he was no longer capable of performing any seals at the time to use a Kage Bunshin, so it could help him make a rasengan.

Let's be serious, do we really believe it was the Kyuubi who intended to grab onto Sasuke and have Naruto follow up with this punch? It's what Naruto had on his mind, and so he made it happen by willing the chakra to do as he wished. He wanted it to grab Sasuke, and then pull Sasuke towards him, so he could punch him right in the face.

http://haven-reader.net/manga/Naruto/Chapter%20231%20-%20Special/naruto_ch231_p15.png

Other examples of Naruto just knowing he could manipulate the thing according to his will.

http://haven-reader.net/manga/Naruto/Chapter%20231%20-%20Special/naruto_ch231_p11.png

http://haven-reader.net/manga/Naruto/Chapter%20231%20-%20Special/naruto_ch231_p12-13.png

So, instead, the chakra acted as a partner in the creation of a rasengan to his desire. Think about it: Why haven't we seen another Jinchuuruki with anything similar to physical chakra that acts upon Naruto's desire? This is "that jutsu". It will basically be like Naruto's mokuton, or like his second chakra nature.

That's what I believe Jiraiya made attempt to have Naruto master, and Naruto now finally possesses such an ability now with the power of the Kyuubi fully under his command.

As to why the ability may show up only when Naruto's utilizing the Kyuubi's chakra? Perhaps it's because, as Kakashi once said before the start of the last part of the Chuunin exam, the Kyuubi is responsible for Naruto's erratic chakra control. Naruto has always sorta had to use some of his own power to suppress the Kyuubi. So maybe when he frees his body up of a major burden, not using his own power to resist the Kyuubi, and instead allows his body more freedom to just let it all hang out, a natural talent or ability emerges.

This is why no other Jinchuuruki we have seen possesses such a thing. Bee, the perfect Jinchuuruki, doesn't have it. Is it a coincidence at all that Kushina, Naruto's mother, appears to have a similar ability to something we've seen only Naruto do?

There is also no doubt that Kushina can have the chains act according to her will as well.

http://haven-reader.net/manga/Naruto/Chapter%20499%20-%20A%20New%20Seal/ch499_UK_Page_06.png

[GyoMasta]

I'm pretty certain Jiraiya taught Naruto "that jutsu", or tried to better teach him to master a technique he already possessed, but didn't fully master. Maybe Jiraiya knew it was capable of much more.

The proof throughout the manga is obvious that Naruto was in the process of at least learning whatever jutsu Jiraiya spoke of before his fight against Pain. Even the scroll toad stated that Naruto acquiring this key would be his way towards mastering "that jutsu"

Mastering it? Seems to me like Naruto may have already had it, and even used it before. You know what? I think we've all seen that jutsu before. It's that special chakra arm manifestation ability we've seen him use before. We do all realize that Naruto was controlling it at will against Orochimaru right? He was using it to continue after Orochimaru when he was utilizing 3 tails.

http://haven-reader.net/manga/Naruto/Chapter%20292%20-%20The%20Third%20Tail/v33_ch292_UK_page_11.png

http://haven-reader.net/manga/Naruto/Chapter%20292%20-%20The%20Third%20Tail/v33_ch292_UK_page_12.png

That technique is basically an absolute defense for him. We saw how it protected him from Sasuke's katon technique in their battle at the VOTE.

http://haven-reader.net/manga/Naruto/Chapter%20231%20-%20Special/naruto_ch231_p10.png

I suspect he has access to it now in his Rikudou Form, but we haven't seen what it has fully developed into just yet. How exactly do we know those chakra arm things aren't a manifestation of a very similar looking ability in Naruto to what Kushina appeared to possess, with her special chakra chains?

Even during 4 tail mode, he was unconsciously controlling the technique. I think it's a technique that responds to Naruto's desires, as did Kushina's chakra chains. I believe she could use them for more than just restraining the Kyuubi. I think she could attack with those chains as well if she really wanted to, it only makes sense.

I wouldn't be surprised in the least if it didn't have to even be chains in Kushina's case, it's just what she desired for the chakra to look like.

Against Sasuke, when the chakra was seemingly attacking on its own. Some might think it was the Kyuubi doing that, but I believe it wasn't. I believe it was Naruto's chakra simply reacting to his desires regardless of what his physical body was doing. He wanted to hit Sasuke, he missed with his fist, so the Kyuubi chakra surrounding him acted upon his desires.

Want my further proof of this fact? How the hell would the Kyuubi know to aide Naruto in performing a Rasengan, it makes no sense. The chakra simply responded to Naruto's desire. He technically required another hand to help him form a powerful rasengan, since he was no longer capable of performing any seals at the time to use a Kage Bunshin, so it could help him make a rasengan.

Let's be serious, do we really believe it was the Kyuubi who intended to grab onto Sasuke and have Naruto follow up with this punch? It's what Naruto had on his mind, and so he made it happen by willing the chakra to do as he wished. He wanted it to grab Sasuke, and then pull Sasuke towards him, so he could punch him right in the face.

http://haven-reader.net/manga/Naruto/Chapter%20231%20-%20Special/naruto_ch231_p15.png

Other examples of Naruto just knowing he could manipulate the thing according to his will.

http://haven-reader.net/manga/Naruto/Chapter%20231%20-%20Special/naruto_ch231_p11.png

http://haven-reader.net/manga/Naruto/Chapter%20231%20-%20Special/naruto_ch231_p12-13.png

So, instead, the chakra acted as a partner in the creation of a rasengan to his desire. Think about it: Why haven't we seen another Jinchuuruki with anything similar to physical chakra that acts upon Naruto's desire? This is "that jutsu". It will basically be like Naruto's mokuton, or like his second chakra nature.

That's what I believe Jiraiya made attempt to have Naruto master, and Naruto now finally possesses such an ability now with the power of the Kyuubi fully under his command.

As to why the ability may show up only when Naruto's utilizing the Kyuubi's chakra? Perhaps it's because, as Kakashi once said before the start of the last part of the Chuunin exam, the Kyuubi is responsible for Naruto's erratic chakra control. Naruto has always sorta had to use some of his own power to suppress the Kyuubi. So maybe when he frees his body up of a major burden, not using his own power to resist the Kyuubi, and instead allows his body more freedom to just let it all hang out, a natural talent or ability emerges.

This is why no other Jinchuuruki we have seen possesses such a thing. Bee, the perfect Jinchuuruki, doesn't have it. Is it a coincidence at all that Kushina, Naruto's mother, appears to have a similar ability to something we've seen only Naruto do?

There is also no doubt that Kushina can have the chains act according to her will as well.

http://haven-reader.net/manga/Naruto/Chapter%20499%20-%20A%20New%20Seal/ch499_UK_Page_06.png


I seriously, seriously, but, doubt that Naruto really controlled anything or that much thing at will against Orochimaru. When Naruto transforms into beast mode the Kyuubi inflences more and more his mind and naruto clearly moves and fight in a way he wouldn't in normal situation. His movement become that of a beast, of what Kyuubi would do.

When you blast away the bridge your very ally stand on in with your superpowerful chakra just to attack Kabuto, that you don't remember that after coming back to normal form but remember what happeed before the 3rd tail appeared... I get a hint that you crearly wasn't that much yourself or in control after the third tail appear.

Kyuubi was fighting more than Naruto, even if he wasn't already gone, that's why Kishi showed us these pictures:

http://read.mangashare.com/Naruto/chapter-292/page003.html

http://read.mangashare.com/Naruto/chapter-292/page004.html

http://read.mangashare.com/Naruto/chapter-292/page005.html

http://read.mangashare.com/Naruto/chapter-292/page008.html

http://read.mangashare.com/Naruto/chapter-292/page009.html

http://read.mangashare.com/Naruto/chapter-292/page010.html

The first 3 links show it: what orochimaru is fighting, way more than Naruto, is the Kyuubi that dwells within and materializes outside.

Surely, as Jiraiya said, Naruto retained "some degree of consciousness" with 3 tails. But must insist on the some dree. He was more patient than 4tail, and he recognized Orochimaru, but he was "in control". What he said when he came back to his senses after Orochimaru left and his actions after the 3rd appeared (as he could still talk during teh formation of the 3rd tail) talk for facts: the control wasn't there unlike what is more seen when there's just 1 tail.

And Kyuubi isn't stupid, he's the smartest of the nine, he knew he was gaining more and more control of naruto and when he took him within his paws (Inner soul world, Kyuubi prison), what appeared next was just Kyuubi, Naruto's consciousness being repelled from the body. Kyuubi has even more control after that, it wasn't Naruto who was influencing the thing to stretch arm, use it's hand under ground, to double the upper part of the body after Oro's punch or preparing cautiously the dense chakra mass: taht was just the bijuu's fighting style that appears more and more as the Number of red chakra and tails appear.

Jiraiya surely tried to put more control of the Kyuubi into Naruto but the theory in different than the application: Naruto didn't have enough control when there was 3 tail. He crushing the material and metaphoric bridge between sanity and the beast clearly showed that.


When he enters teh Kyubi mode, his movement change, and not just for the speed. The beast induces fighting and into naruto. He even was able to use Rasengan with just 1 hand at the end of The Valley of the End battle, something he isn't able to to in normal mode.
It's a combination of Naruto's instincts and Kyuubi's bestiality. But the more tails appear, the more of Naruto's consciousness and control disappear. And when it's 3 tail, get away, fast.

I'll maybe write more, SenninSage and folks, I got to leave.

[Rikudou King]

It took the orphans working together collectively to defeat a Jiraiya KB, and they needed 3 years to do that. Jiraiya could also take his time and train them properly. That wasn't the case with Naruto. Jiraiya only had a couple of years to train chuunin-level Naruto to stave off kage-level opponents. Which sounds better to you?

A: Teach the basics of elemental recompisition knowing it'll do squat to Naruto's future opponents.
B: Teach Naruto how to better control the Kyuubi's chakra knowing it might help Naruto stave off kage-level threats.

Hint: It isn't A.

Keep in mind too that before Part II, Kyuubi had yet to be a hindrance. Kyuubi training proved vital in Naruto's fights with Neji and Gaara. Early on Naruto had shown signs of being an adequate Jinchuuriki. Hiruzen, for example, was astounded that Naruto was actually able to control the Kyuubi's chakra during vs Neji. Jiraiya would have had similar thoughts as well. Focusing on Kyuubi was the rational thing to do.

We also have the results to contend with. A three-tailed Naruto made short work of Kabuto and was able to damage Orochimaru. When Naruto grew a fourth-tail, he succeeded in forcing Orochimaru to flee. Both Orochimaru and Kabuto pointed out Naruto's development as a jinchuuriki was remarkable. The training did pave off.

Where everything fell apart was the execution. Naruto was made to look incompetent before, during, and after the Orochimaru fight. Even now the author continues making Naruto look incompetent. Considering it takes years for most to even become ninjas and then decades longer to get strong enough to even challenge someone like Jiraiya, The Ame Orphans did pretty well. I'll point out that after three years of training they were seemly able to do something that most of Konoha couldn't do and land an attack on a S rank ninja.

Anyway, The point still stood that Jiraiya was beginning from square one with them. They didn't have any of the general training ninjas normally have. Jiraiya had to teach all of that to three children on top of elemental and skills training. On the other hand, Naruto already knew most of that. Jiraiya didn't really have to teach Naruto anything beyond that. And elemental training had a pretty big hand in defeating Kakuzu. I don't see why Jiraiya would have had to even choose between the elemental training and the Kyuubi training. Even assuming Jiraiya didn't mess with the seal until near the end of the three years and was reteaching Naruto the fundamentals, That still meant that Jiraiya was teaching Naruto several things at once.

The problem with Naruto using his Kyuubi forms was the higher they went the less in control Naruto was. He was fully willing to attack Kakashi when in his two tail form and without Yamato around would have killed Sakura in the four tail form. Naruto also made short work of his own team with the three tail form and he didn't really force Orochimaru to flee. Orochimaru left because his body was weak, Not out of any fear of Naruto. The only form Naruto appears to have full control over was the one tail form, Which wasn't much different from before the training. That's why Jiraiya warned Kakashi not to allow Naruto to gain more then one tail. The training paid off, But not in the right way.

But yes, Kishi continuing to make Naruto so incompetent is really hurting his character, Especially when compared to Part 1, Where Naruto wasn't the strongest but showed plenty of competences in and out of battle.


The amount of Kyuubi chakra that this method of training requires is the amount you find when Naruto starts sprouting tails. And Naruto's chakra is disturbed when he starts transforming into his bijuu. This is the actual reason Naruto needs a co-pilot like Yamato in order to use Tajuu Kage Bushin to the extent he did during the wind training. The only reason Naruto now risk sprouting tails when using multiple clones is because Jiraiya messed with his seal and loosen it. Naruto didn't need to worry about such a thing happening before the seal was loosen. The weaken seal is what enabled the Kyuubi's chakra to react easier to Naruto's anger.

[gnut]

during the summoning training,jiraiya told naruto that his red chakra would be his strongest weapon.when he pushed naruto over the cliff,he said to himself that naruto needs to use the key on his side.that's when naruto summoned bunta,so i'm sure that jutsu is the QB.....

[Eprst]

during the summoning training,jiraiya told naruto that his red chakra would be his strongest weapon.when he pushed naruto over the cliff,he said to himself that naruto needs to use the key on his side.that's when naruto summoned bunta,so i'm sure that jutsu is the QB.....

So you mean Jiraya was trying to teach Naruto to sumon QB???
But Jiraya suspected that Naruto will confront Madara, and that Minato sealed QB into Naruto with the same purpose. If in fight with Madara Naruto summons QB then Madara can easily get control of it with his sharingan. So i doubt that is "that" jutsu.

[Nonlife]

Summoning the 9tails sounds just as lethal as having it removed by Akatsuki. In my opinion, Naruto probably had to teach himself for a while if Jiraiya was too busy recovering from the 4tails onslaught. (But I'm sure fans can point out that Naruto's not dumb; he's shown plenty of competence before the timeskip. If he really did succeed Jiraiya and started summoning frogs/using other jutsus/etc. from the start, Kishimoto would be up to his ears in figuring out making up new villains. From the start, it's always been about a final showdown with Uchiha's curse.) I really do feel bad for Naruto, b/c getting a free internship under one of the Legendary Sennin's care should mentally push someone hard enough to learn all they can.

[kkck]

I think "THAT JUTSU" was simply naruto's jinchuiriki transformation. jiraiya tried to teach naruto how to control the kyubi's power and how to properly leach from it however he never really managed to make naruto learn how to control it. In turn the seal weakened and whenever naruto tried to access that power (intentionally or unintentionally) he got taken over and risked putting everything in proximity to an utter and unavoidable end. Jiraiya simply did not know how to control a biju himself. IMO naruto by all intents and purposes has already masted "that" jutsu.

[Eprst]

I think "THAT JUTSU" was simply naruto's jinchuiriki transformation. jiraiya tried to teach naruto how to control the kyubi's power and how to properly leach from it however he never really managed to make naruto learn how to control it. In turn the seal weakened and whenever naruto tried to access that power (intentionally or unintentionally) he got taken over and risked putting everything in proximity to an utter and unavoidable end. Jiraiya simply did not know how to control a biju himself. IMO naruto by all intents and purposes has already masted "that" jutsu.

Yeah but in one chapter frog said to Naruto that - gaining control over Kyubi is the key to "that" jutsu, and Naruto agreed. So it is probably is something to confront Sharingan - EMS or MS. Jiraya is not that dumb, he knew secret powers of Sharingan. and suspected that Madara is alive...
Somehow i liked SanninSage version. I think it is super rasengan where it spins around Narutos body making a perfect defense.

[kkck]

What was that chapter? I don't recall anything like that.

I also did not say Jiraya was dumb, just that he did not know how to teach naruto how to control kyubi.

I doubt naruto's secret technique would be a cheap copy of neji's defense too.

[Nonlife]

If Naruto was indeed taught something that doesn't have any involvement with the Kyuubi, he'd better have a damned good excuse for not using it before. (Kishimoto already knows how he wants to have it end).

[zerocooldx]

Does Naruto even know about the existence or idea of "THAT" jutsu? I mean i know that we the readers know about it. But i don't think Naruto knows anything about it.

[niblack89]

Does Naruto even know about the existence or idea of "THAT" jutsu? I mean i know that we the readers know about it. But i don't think Naruto knows anything about it.

Naruto knows *that jutsu. The key toad told him that mastering the kyuubi's power is http://i328.photobucket.com/albums/l325/niblack89/8996.jpg

The see that jutsu isn't a matter of chakra it's a jutsu that requires the power of his kyuubi power. Naruto sage mode has way more than enough chakra to preform any jutsu. I think SenninSage was on to something. Bee has the same form Naruto use to have and we never saw chakra arms or his chakra react by it's self. Jiraiya knew of Kushina's special chakra, seeing as Naruto is her son he should have the same ability. He could have tried to teach him to use it. It would be better than learning elemental training.The problem is Naruto's chakra isn't as pure as Kushina's and Naruto can only preform the jutsu with the influence of the kyuubi.

Naruto could probably use a variety of the jutsu but he can't actually use it. Jiraiya probably saw this when he face the 4tails and trained Naruto to learn to harness the power but saw it as a lost cause because Naruto couldn't control the kyuubi. Naruto could probably turn his chakra into not only arms but chains, weapons or even a shield.

Its the same as when Jiraiya used sage mode. We were left to guess what was that transformation? Kushina uses a special technique and were left with what is that technique.

[Newkerzy]

@SenninSage: I think you're on to something, but I sort of have to agree with Gyo too. And to be honest, I think Bee can use his cloak the way Naruto does Pre-training. The only thing is, it's not his style. He just prefers using it that way.

[Zancrow]

jiraiya taught naruto how to use his brain in battle lol

[gnut]

jiraiya said that summoning toads with his current"blue"chakra wasn't possible.he had to willingly draw on his"red"chakra,hence the QB training during the time skip.you guys may have a point,there maybe a particular jutsu when controlling QB's chakra.but,after the time skip jiraiya explained to kakashi,tsunade and i think shizune that naruto had got up to four tails.he also said that there were two incidents where he almost died,by tsunade and by naruto.i said before if hadn't got hurt they may have been gone longer to train,to bad jiraiya didn't know the raikage or bee.he could have asked for help and why didn't he get counsel from the toads on this training method.....

[zerocooldx]

Naruto knows *that jutsu. The key toad told him that mastering the kyuubi's power is http://i328.photobucket.com/albums/l325/niblack89/8996.jpg

The see that jutsu isn't a matter of chakra it's a jutsu that requires the power of his kyuubi power. Naruto sage mode has way more than enough chakra to preform any jutsu. I think SenninSage was on to something. Bee has the same form Naruto use to have and we never saw chakra arms or his chakra react by it's self. Jiraiya knew of Kushina's special chakra, seeing as Naruto is her son he should have the same ability. He could have tried to teach him to use it. It would be better than learning elemental training.The problem is Naruto's chakra isn't as pure as Kushina's and Naruto can only preform the jutsu with the influence of the kyuubi.

Naruto could probably use a variety of the jutsu but he can't actually use it. Jiraiya probably saw this when he face the 4tails and trained Naruto to learn to harness the power but saw it as a lost cause because Naruto couldn't control the kyuubi. Naruto could probably turn his chakra into not only arms but chains, weapons or even a shield.

Its the same as when Jiraiya used sage mode. We were left to guess what was that transformation? Kushina uses a special technique and were left with what is that technique.

Ok i really didn't remember whether or not Naruto knew about "that" jutsu. So now my question, and the million dollar question, is what is "that" jutsu? And a better question is why in the hell is Naruto playing zoologist instead of training on "that" jutsu? Or was "that" jutsu just another instant power up he received after "taming" the Kyuubi?

[Eprst]

Ok i really didn't remember whether or not Naruto knew about "that" jutsu. So now my question, and the million dollar question, is what is "that" jutsu? And a better question is why in the hell is Naruto playing zoologist instead of training on "that" jutsu? Or was "that" jutsu just another instant power up he received after "taming" the Kyuubi?

Haha yeah i also had such question - instead of training Naruto is doing zoo mission. He wanted to extend his 5 minutes of sage mode to fight Sasuke. He needs to learn how to control Qb chakra so he wont brake his leg or arm. But instead Naruto is playing childish games :)
[hr]

What was that chapter? I don't recall anything like that.

I also did not say Jiraya was dumb, just that he did not know how to teach naruto how to control kyubi.

I doubt naruto's secret technique would be a cheap copy of neji's defense too.

Hey man i didnt try to offend you sorry if i did -i was just exploring my point of view :)

[Roxeme2123]

well all he learned in the time skip was giant rasagon and a other jutsu jyria said not to use........

[GyoMasta]

I'm pretty certain Jiraiya taught Naruto "that jutsu", or tried to better teach him to master a technique he already possessed, but didn't fully master. Maybe Jiraiya knew it was capable of much more.

The proof throughout the manga is obvious that Naruto was in the process of at least learning whatever jutsu Jiraiya spoke of before his fight against Pain. Even the scroll toad stated that Naruto acquiring this key would be his way towards mastering "that jutsu"

Mastering it? Seems to me like Naruto may already have had it, and even used it before. You know what? I think we've all seen that jutsu before. It's that special chakra arm manifestation ability we've seen him use before. We do all realize that Naruto was controlling it at will against Orochimaru right? He was using it to continue after Orochimaru when he was utilizing 3 tails.

http://haven-reader.net/manga/Naruto/Chapter%20292%20-%20The%20Third%20Tail/v33_ch292_UK_page_11.png

http://haven-reader.net/manga/Naruto/Chapter%20292%20-%20The%20Third%20Tail/v33_ch292_UK_page_12.png

That technique is basically an absolute defence for him. We saw how it protected him from Sasuke's katon technique in their battle at the VOTE.

http://haven-reader.net/manga/Naruto/Chapter%20231%20-%20Special/naruto_ch231_p10.png

I suspect he has access to it now in his Rikudou Form, but we haven't seen what it has fully developed into just yet. How exactly do we know those chakra arm things aren't a manifestation of a very similar looking ability in Naruto to what Kushina appeared to possess, with her special chakra chains?

Even during 4 tail mode, he was unconsciously controlling the technique. I think it's a technique that responds to Naruto's desires, as did Kushina's chakra chains. I believe she could use them for more than just restraining the Kyuubi. I think she could attack with those chains as well if she really wanted to, it only makes sense.

I wouldn't be surprised in the least if it didn't have to even be chains in Kushina's case, it's just what she desired for the chakra to look like.

Against Sasuke, when the chakra was seemingly attacking on its own. Some might think it was the Kyuubi doing that, but I believe it wasn't. I believe it was Naruto's chakra simply reacting to his desires regardless of what his physical body was doing. He wanted to hit Sasuke, he missed with his fist, so the Kyuubi chakra surrounding him acted upon his desires.

Want my further proof of this fact? How the hell would the Kyuubi know to aide Naruto in performing a Rasengan, it makes no sense. The chakra simply responded to Naruto's desire. He technically required another hand to help him form a powerful rasengan, since he was no longer capable of performing any seals at the time to use a Kage Bunshin, so it could help him make a rasengan.

Let's be serious, do we really believe it was the Kyuubi who intended to grab onto Sasuke and have Naruto follow up with this punch? It's what Naruto had on his mind, and so he made it happen by willing the chakra to do as he wished. He wanted it to grab Sasuke, and then pull Sasuke towards him, so he could punch him right in the face.

http://haven-reader.net/manga/Naruto/Chapter%20231%20-%20Special/naruto_ch231_p15.png

Other examples of Naruto just knowing he could manipulate the thing according to his will.

http://haven-reader.net/manga/Naruto/Chapter%20231%20-%20Special/naruto_ch231_p11.png

http://haven-reader.net/manga/Naruto/Chapter%20231%20-%20Special/naruto_ch231_p12-13.png

So, instead, the chakra acted as a partner in the creation of a rasengan to his desire. Think about it: Why haven't we seen another Jinchuuruki with anything similar to physical chakra that acts upon Naruto's desire? This is "that jutsu". It will basically be like Naruto's mokuton, or like his second chakra nature.

That's what I believe Jiraiya made attempt to have Naruto master, and Naruto now finally possesses such an ability now with the power of the Kyuubi fully under his command.

As to why the ability may show up only when Naruto's utilizing the Kyuubi's chakra? Perhaps it's because, as Kakashi once said before the start of the last part of the Chuunin exam, the Kyuubi is responsible for Naruto's erratic chakra control. Naruto has always sorta had to use some of his own power to suppress the Kyuubi. So maybe when he frees his body up of a major burden, not using his own power to resist the Kyuubi, and instead allows his body more freedom to just let it all hang out, a natural talent or ability emerges.

This is why no other Jinchuuruki we have seen possesses such a thing. Bee, the perfect Jinchuuruki, doesn't have it. Is it a coincidence at all that Kushina, Naruto's mother, appears to have a similar ability to something we've seen only Naruto do?

There is also no doubt that Kushina can have the chains act according to her will as well.

http://haven-reader.net/manga/Naruto/Chapter%20499%20-%20A%20New%20Seal/ch499_UK_Page_06.png

Continuing the answer:


You say that Naruto inherited Kushina's special chakra chains to some visible degree: I don't think him inheriting it because he's Kushina's son is something that goes without saying. Kushina's special chakra properties were something unique to her that no other member of the Uzumaki clan possessed. It seems to have been like Hashirama's Mokuton and bijuu-control abilities: even though it's labelled as Kekkei Genkai it's just a unique mutation that did appear neither in his parents nor his brother or descendants. We can even see that Tsunade, who is the granddaughter of "super-Senju" Hashirama and "super-Uzumaki" Mito doesn't display any special and natural physiological attribute.


You also say that the special chakra of Kushina, inherited to some degree by Naruto, is manifested with him when he enters beast mode and use the kyuubi chakra cloak/arms in the way we know. But that way really differs from Kushina's chakra chains that are more of a restrictive/biding type, like Mokuton bijuu-control displayed by Yamato rather than a body-shaping and grabbing type that we can see when Naruto acts like a jinchuuriki. In fact, as Yamato's Mokuton-based bijuu-control jutsu has animals patterns and can actually grab things (in the ways they do), it has way more resemblance to what Kyuubi enables Naruto to do in beast/jinchuuriki mode (I say Kyuubi enables him to do because I really think that Kyuubi is the source of such abilities from what other seem of the manga have pointed to) than what Kushina's chains could do, which just looked like the picture on which we see a chained Kyuubi put under the control of the Sharingan, on which Madara and Sasuke also appear.

http://read.mangashare.com/Naruto/chapter-322/page009.html

http://read.mangashare.com/Naruto/chapter-322/page010.html

http://read.mangashare.com/Naruto/chapter-322/page011.html

http://read.mangashare.com/Naruto/chapter-322/page012.html

http://read.mangashare.com/Naruto/chapter-498/page008.html

http://read.mangashare.com/Naruto/chapter-498/page009.html

But I'm not implying that the bijuu cloak and Mokuton bijuu-control properties are related in other thing than the fact that Hashirama and Yamato have Mokuton-based bijuu-control abilities.

What's more: when Sasuke encountered Kyuubi in Naruto's Inner Soul Room, kyuubi clearly noted the similarities between Sasuke and Kushina, and it was on the first (and only) time that Sasuke got in. Yet, Kyuubi never mentioned anything about Naruto having a special chakra in the way of anybody, before, during or after any of Kushina's appearance. When Kushina appeared within Naruto, Kyuubi recognized the chakra but he never formulated any resemblance with Naruto's. In fact, Minato himself also wanted Kushina to be partially sealed in Naruto for the day he would try to control the fox, meaning he surely didn't expected for Kushina's special chakra chains to be hereditary to begin with so rare (unique) it was even among Kushina's clan.
Kushina herself said that her chakra was special but never made any comment about her son's chakra when she should have noticed if Naruto had something that much special (other than being a Senju-Uzumaki jinchuurki mix).

Naruto would be slow if he had such ability but didn't master it at his age. And if one of the 9 "current" jinchuuriki's chakra should be considered more special than others for resisting the influence of the bijuu they have it should be Gaara, who spent 15 years without sleeping when you should normally die after 72-80 hours awake.

Talking about Gaara: he too displayed the ability to stretch and strangely control his arms and other body members when he was transforming into his bijuu. Even though it's not exactly a "chakra cloak" in the full sense, since Shukaku only has 1 tail and therefore the transformation is quicker, but the abilities have more similarities than Kushina's chakra chains. Meaning it's more of a jinchuuriki and bijuu thing to be able to project one arm or members and chakra in that way to grab and to other such stuff, not unique to Naruto:

http://www.narutobase.net/manga/Naruto/128/4

http://www.narutobase.net/manga/Naruto/128/5

http://www.narutobase.net/manga/Naruto/128/6

http://www.narutobase.net/manga/Naruto/128/7

http://www.narutobase.net/manga/Naruto/128/8

http://www.narutobase.net/manga/Naruto/129/9

http://www.narutobase.net/manga/Naruto/129/10

We can clearly see that it's not something that comes from the person but something that the bijuu enable it's jinchuuriki to do. Gaara had more control of his bijuu than Naruto over Kyuubi but the more his transforms the more his fighting style looks like his bijuu. Gaara acts with way more control than Naruto but it doesn't change the fact his stretching/shaping his members like is an ability granted to him because his a jinchuuriki. Same thing applies to Naruto: when he grabs something/one in the way he does when transforming, it's not because of some special thing from himself or Kushina, it's simply the abilities and style of the bijuu that he uses and when Naruto's consciousness is no longer there(against Oro or Pain) those moves are still been seen. The reason: it's Kyuubi's fighting style, his abilities, his way of moving, not Naruto's. Naruto was just influenced by it. The way Naruto, when transformed (different levels), is acting, moving, attacking (including the chakra blast) could be seen in Kyuubi when he was fighting against Naruto and Kushina or when he was fighting Konoha and Yondaime, proving to be a bijuu thing that the jinchuuriki acquires when transforming.

Killer Bee didn't use those moves and we didn't see the chakra react by itself for the simple reason that Killer Bee has absolute control over Hachibi: if he doesn't wanted it to move on its own, it won't move on its own, something Naruto couldn't hope to do before the last chapters.


So when people include Naruto's "fight" against Orochimaru to demonstrate his improvement after 2.5 years of training with Jiraiya>> I'm not convinced. Had he shown clear control of that state I would have put it among his improvements, but since it looked more like the results of letting hate and anger overwhelm him as well as Jiraiya playing with the seal (something he didn't say to Kakashi, Tsunade and Yamato) it isn't really improvement. I just showed us that he had more control before the timeskip and therefore didn't progress enough.

[SenninSage]

Naruto could control the Kyuubi's chakra up to 3 tails, but he willingly allowed it to take control. He once said so himself.

Even Jiraiya confirmed that Naruto could control it up to 3 tails. I wasn't suggesting that Naruto, like Kushina, possessed an innate ability to suppress the Kyuubi's power to the same degree, but that maybe he possessed an innate ability to release his chakra and have it act according to his will.

It's pure speculation on my part, though. The way Naruto used it just struck me as having all sorts of potential though. I'd be really disappointed if Naruto failed to use his massive chakra capacity to easily knock away attacks or even enemies coming his way, like he did against Sasuke at the VOTE, or against Kabuto before he decided to allow it to go the 4th tail.

[GyoMasta]

I'm pretty certain Jiraiya taught Naruto "that jutsu", or tried to better teach him to master a technique he already possessed, but didn't fully master. Maybe Jiraiya knew it was capable of much more.

The proof throughout the manga is obvious that Naruto was in the process of at least learning whatever jutsu Jiraiya spoke of before his fight against Pain. Even the scroll toad stated that Naruto acquiring this key would be his way towards mastering "that jutsu"

Mastering it? Seems to me like Naruto may already have had it, and even used it before. You know what? I think we've all seen that jutsu before. It's that special chakra arm manifestation ability we've seen him use before. We do all realize that Naruto was controlling it at will against Orochimaru right? He was using it to continue after Orochimaru when he was utilizing 3 tails.

http://haven-reader.net/manga/Naruto/Chapter%20292%20-%20The%20Third%20Tail/v33_ch292_UK_page_11.png

http://haven-reader.net/manga/Naruto/Chapter%20292%20-%20The%20Third%20Tail/v33_ch292_UK_page_12.png

That technique is basically an absolute defence for him. We saw how it protected him from Sasuke's katon technique in their battle at the VOTE.

http://haven-reader.net/manga/Naruto/Chapter%20231%20-%20Special/naruto_ch231_p10.png

I suspect he has access to it now in his Rikudou Form, but we haven't seen what it has fully developed into just yet. How exactly do we know those chakra arm things aren't a manifestation of a very similar looking ability in Naruto to what Kushina appeared to possess, with her special chakra chains?

Even during 4 tail mode, he was unconsciously controlling the technique. I think it's a technique that responds to Naruto's desires, as did Kushina's chakra chains. I believe she could use them for more than just restraining the Kyuubi. I think she could attack with those chains as well if she really wanted to, it only makes sense.

I wouldn't be surprised in the least if it didn't have to even be chains in Kushina's case, it's just what she desired for the chakra to look like.

Against Sasuke, when the chakra was seemingly attacking on its own. Some might think it was the Kyuubi doing that, but I believe it wasn't. I believe it was Naruto's chakra simply reacting to his desires regardless of what his physical body was doing. He wanted to hit Sasuke, he missed with his fist, so the Kyuubi chakra surrounding him acted upon his desires.

Want my further proof of this fact? How the hell would the Kyuubi know to aide Naruto in performing a Rasengan, it makes no sense. The chakra simply responded to Naruto's desire. He technically required another hand to help him form a powerful rasengan, since he was no longer capable of performing any seals at the time to use a Kage Bunshin, so it could help him make a rasengan.

Let's be serious, do we really believe it was the Kyuubi who intended to grab onto Sasuke and have Naruto follow up with this punch? It's what Naruto had on his mind, and so he made it happen by willing the chakra to do as he wished. He wanted it to grab Sasuke, and then pull Sasuke towards him, so he could punch him right in the face.

http://haven-reader.net/manga/Naruto/Chapter%20231%20-%20Special/naruto_ch231_p15.png

Other examples of Naruto just knowing he could manipulate the thing according to his will.

http://haven-reader.net/manga/Naruto/Chapter%20231%20-%20Special/naruto_ch231_p11.png

http://haven-reader.net/manga/Naruto/Chapter%20231%20-%20Special/naruto_ch231_p12-13.png

So, instead, the chakra acted as a partner in the creation of a rasengan to his desire. Think about it: Why haven't we seen another Jinchuuruki with anything similar to physical chakra that acts upon Naruto's desire? This is "that jutsu". It will basically be like Naruto's mokuton, or like his second chakra nature.

That's what I believe Jiraiya made attempt to have Naruto master, and Naruto now finally possesses such an ability now with the power of the Kyuubi fully under his command.

As to why the ability may show up only when Naruto's utilizing the Kyuubi's chakra? Perhaps it's because, as Kakashi once said before the start of the last part of the Chuunin exam, the Kyuubi is responsible for Naruto's erratic chakra control. Naruto has always sorta had to use some of his own power to suppress the Kyuubi. So maybe when he frees his body up of a major burden, not using his own power to resist the Kyuubi, and instead allows his body more freedom to just let it all hang out, a natural talent or ability emerges.

This is why no other Jinchuuruki we have seen possesses such a thing. Bee, the perfect Jinchuuruki, doesn't have it. Is it a coincidence at all that Kushina, Naruto's mother, appears to have a similar ability to something we've seen only Naruto do?

There is also no doubt that Kushina can have the chains act according to her will as well.

http://haven-reader.net/manga/Naruto/Chapter%20499%20-%20A%20New%20Seal/ch499_UK_Page_06.png

Continuing the answer:


You say that Naruto inherited Kushina's special chakra chains to some visible degree: I don't think him inheriting it because he's Kushina's son is something that goes without saying. Kushina's special chakra properties were something unique to her that no other member of the Uzumaki clan possessed. It seems to have been like Hashirama's Mokuton and bijuu-control abilities: even though it's labelled as Kekkei Genkai it's just a unique mutation that did appear neither in his parents nor his brother or descendants. We can even see that Tsunade, who is the granddaughter of "super-Senju" Hashirama and "super-Uzumaki" Mito doesn't display any special and natural physiological attribute.


You also say that the special chakra of Kushina, inherited to some degree by Naruto, is manifested with him when he enters beast mode and use the kyuubi chakra cloak/arms in the way we know. But that way really differs from Kushina's chakra chains that are more of a restrictive/biding type, like Mokuton bijuu-control displayed by Yamato rather than a body-shaping and grabbing type that we can see when Naruto acts like a jinchuuriki. In fact, as Yamato's Mokuton-based bijuu-control jutsu has animals patterns and can actually grab things (in the ways they do), it has way more resemblance to what Kyuubi enables Naruto to do in beast/jinchuuriki mode (I say Kyuubi enables him to do because I really think that Kyuubi is the source of such abilities from what other seem of the manga have pointed to) than what Kushina's chains could do, which just looked like the picture on which we see a chained Kyuubi put under the control of the Sharingan, on which Madara and Sasuke also appear.

http://read.mangashare.com/Naruto/chapter-322/page009.html

http://read.mangashare.com/Naruto/chapter-322/page010.html

http://read.mangashare.com/Naruto/chapter-322/page011.html

http://read.mangashare.com/Naruto/chapter-322/page012.html

http://read.mangashare.com/Naruto/chapter-498/page008.html

http://read.mangashare.com/Naruto/chapter-498/page009.html

But I'm not implying that the bijuu cloak and Mokuton bijuu-control properties are related in other thing than the fact that Hashirama and Yamato have Mokuton-based bijuu-control abilities.

What's more: when Sasuke encountered Kyuubi in Naruto's Inner Soul Room, kyuubi clearly noted the similarities between Sasuke and Kushina, and it was on the first (and only) time that Sasuke got in. Yet, Kyuubi never mentioned anything about Naruto having a special chakra in the way of anybody, before, during or after any of Kushina's appearance. When Kushina appeared within Naruto, Kyuubi recognized the chakra but he never formulated any resemblance with Naruto's. In fact, Minato himself also wanted Kushina to be partially sealed in Naruto for the day he would try to control the fox, meaning he surely didn't expected for Kushina's special chakra chains to be hereditary to begin with so rare (unique) it was even among Kushina's clan.
Kushina herself said that her chakra was special but never made any comment about her son's chakra when she should have noticed if Naruto had something that much special (other than being a Senju-Uzumaki jinchuurki mix).

Naruto would be slow if he had such ability but didn't master it at his age. And if one of the 9 "current" jinchuuriki's chakra should be considered more special than others for resisting the influence of the bijuu they have it should be Gaara, who spent 15 years without sleeping when you should normally die after 72-80 hours awake.

Talking about Gaara: he too displayed the ability to stretch and strangely control his arms and other body members when he was transforming into his bijuu. Even though it's not exactly a "chakra cloak" in the full sense, since Shukaku only has 1 tail and therefore the transformation is quicker, but the abilities have more similarities than Kushina's chakra chains. Meaning it's more of a jinchuuriki and bijuu thing to be able to project one arm or members and chakra in that way to grab and to other such stuff, not unique to Naruto:

http://www.narutobase.net/manga/Naruto/128/4

http://www.narutobase.net/manga/Naruto/128/5

http://www.narutobase.net/manga/Naruto/128/6

http://www.narutobase.net/manga/Naruto/128/7

http://www.narutobase.net/manga/Naruto/128/8

http://www.narutobase.net/manga/Naruto/129/9

http://www.narutobase.net/manga/Naruto/129/10

We can clearly see that it's not something that comes from the person but something that the bijuu enable it's jinchuuriki to do. Gaara had more control of his bijuu than Naruto over Kyuubi but the more his transforms the more his fighting style looks like his bijuu. Gaara acts with way more control than Naruto but it doesn't change the fact his stretching/shaping his members like is an ability granted to him because his a jinchuuriki. Same thing applies to Naruto: when he grabs something/one in the way he does when transforming, it's not because of some special thing from himself or Kushina, it's simply the abilities and style of the bijuu that he uses and when Naruto's consciousness is no longer there(against Oro or Pain) those moves are still been seen. The reason: it's Kyuubi's fighting style, his abilities, his way of moving, not Naruto's. Naruto was just influenced by it. The way Naruto, when transformed (different levels), is acting, moving, attacking (including the chakra blast) could be seen in Kyuubi when he was fighting against Naruto and Kushina or when he was fighting Konoha and Yondaime, proving to be a bijuu thing that the jinchuuriki acquires when transforming.

Killer Bee didn't use those moves and we didn't see the chakra react by itself for the simple reason that Killer Bee has absolute control over Hachibi: if he doesn't wanted it to move on its own, it won't move on its own, something Naruto couldn't hope to do before the last chapters.[/QUOTE]



Naruto could control the Kyuubi's chakra up to 3 tails, but he willingly allowed it to take control. He once said so himself.

Even Jiraiya confirmed that Naruto could control it up to 3 tails. I wasn't suggesting that Naruto, like Kushina, possessed an innate ability to suppress the Kyuubi's power to the same degree, but that maybe he possessed an innate ability to release his chakra and have it act according to his will.

It's pure speculation on my part, though. The way Naruto used it just struck me as having all sorts of potential though. I'd be really disappointed if Naruto failed to use his massive chakra capacity to easily knock away attacks or even enemies coming his way, like he did against Sasuke at the VOTE, or against Kabuto before he decided to allow it to go the 4th tail.

Jiraiya never said Naruto could coontrol the transformed state up to 3 tails, he said he could "retain some degree of consciousness" with 3 tails:

http://read.mangashare.com/Naruto/chapter-291/page009.html
http://www.narutofan.com/manga/naruto/291/9

Which is very different from being in control. Naruto said he let it take control because he didn't restrict his own anger and hate, and because when their was only few of his consciousness still having some effects on his body he deliberatly let Kyuubi take the absolute control because he was in a strange state of mind, as we can see when he is "chasing after Sasuke" in the Soul Room and then entering the Kyuubi prison. naruto, from what teh manga shows and what the character said demonstrate the opposite of what you're saying: he wasn't in control, he was under the influence and then he was simply the one being controlled by Kyuubi.

And after naruto's mind is gone we see that Kyuubi fight using his "long arms and stuff" against orochimaru, which proves that those moves are his, not Naruto's or anything like that. If Naruto were to gain better or absolute control then, of course, he would be able to use those abilities perfectly, not just being influenced by what Kyuubi would do, since Kyuubi's chakra was affecting his brain.

[M3J]

Does Naruto even know about the existence or idea of "THAT" jutsu? I mean i know that we the readers know about it. But i don't think Naruto knows anything about it.
Yes he does. Before Naruto set out to rescue Gaara, Jiraiya warned him not to use "that" jutsu. Naruto agreed, which means he knows it's either pretty dangerous or difficult to use.


Ok i really didn't remember whether or not Naruto knew about "that" jutsu. So now my question, and the million dollar question, is what is "that" jutsu? And a better question is why in the hell is Naruto playing zoologist instead of training on "that" jutsu? Or was "that" jutsu just another instant power up he received after "taming" the Kyuubi?

We dunno, apart it possibly being powerful and requiring Kyuubi's chakra. Whatever this jutsu is, it may have been Minato's, maybe made to be passed down to Naruto.
He may have trained on "that" jutsu, or with Jiraiya's guidance perfected it enough and sees no need for it yet. It does require Kyuubi's chakra, and it's powerful. Maybe Jiraiya was focusing on teaching Naruto "that" jutsu while watching out for the Kyuubi's influence. It may explain why the seal weakened a bit.

[elitefox]

Yes he does. Before Naruto set out to rescue Gaara, Jiraiya warned him not to use "that" jutsu. Naruto agreed, which means he knows it's either pretty dangerous or difficult to use.



We dunno, apart it possibly being powerful and requiring Kyuubi's chakra. Whatever this jutsu is, it may have been Minato's, maybe made to be passed down to Naruto.
He may have trained on "that" jutsu, or with Jiraiya's guidance perfected it enough and sees no need for it yet. It does require Kyuubi's chakra, and it's powerful. Maybe Jiraiya was focusing on teaching Naruto "that" jutsu while watching out for the Kyuubi's influence. It may explain why the seal weakened a bit.


maybe a secret jutsu that even minato didnt use against Tobi

maybe it can even cut through space and time lol which tobi is playing around with :darn
[hr]
making his S/T useless

[Nonlife]

maybe a secret jutsu that even minato didnt use against Tobi

maybe it can even cut through space and time lol which tobi is playing around with :darn
<hr noshade size="1">
making his S/T useless

Sssssseeeerrrriiiiiooooossssslllllllyyyyyy, doubt it. If he's an ace in his sleeve, how the hell did Jiraiya teach it to him if Naruto (who I know is smarter than he's been portrayed) couldn't grasp basic concepts during his training with Kakashi. (That'll just put in more holes in the manga than there needs to be).

[elitefox]

Sssssseeeerrrriiiiiooooossssslllllllyyyyyy, doubt it. If he's an ace in his sleeve, how the hell did Jiraiya teach it to him if Naruto (who I know is smarter than he's been portrayed) couldn't grasp basic concepts during his training with Kakashi. (That'll just put in more holes in the manga than there needs to be).

At least he has learned something of value :blink

he can grasp concepts at a different way than a normal human perception like ice cream plus chocolate make it more delicious = chakra + natural energy is more powerful.

you can insert anything to him, he did even understand the KB scroll by himself.


As long as its scribble, he can grasp it XD

[Eprst]

At least he has learned something of value :blink

he can grasp concepts at a different way than a normal human perception like ice cream plus chocolate make it more delicious = chakra + natural energy is more powerful.

you can insert anything to him, he did even understand the KB scroll by himself.


As long as its scribble, he can grasp it XD

Yeah you are right Naruto is an exception, he cant learn basic stuff - but when it comes to something serious he can master it in 3 days. Yeah he is dumb, but look even Orochimaru was afraid of his potential - after he saw him managing rasengan - he said he should kill him. I doubt that such genius as Oro could master Rasengan when he was a child for a week :)

[beltranl]

I think Jiraiya was trying to help naruto get stronger and learn to use

the kyubi's chakras and stuff while not necessarilt telling naruto. He knew

naruto and probably knew naruto would not be so thrilled about it so

taught him some things like Giant Rasengan but all along was focusing

on the Kyubi because he knew that the Kyubi would play a huge role

in his life.

[niblack89]

Ok i really didn't remember whether or not Naruto knew about "that" jutsu. So now my question, and the million dollar question, is what is "that" jutsu? And a better question is why in the hell is Naruto playing zoologist instead of training on "that" jutsu? Or was "that" jutsu just another instant power up he received after "taming" the Kyuubi?

Well we don't know that jutsu yet. Just like Itachi's power. I was just making a speculation on that jutsu. We know its only possible when Naruto uses the kyuubi's chakra because with the chakra he gains from sage mode should give him access to any jutsu because his chakra increases that much.

[Eprst]

So actually my idea about rasengan balls defending Naruto was right, look to the chapter Naruto has 9 balls surrounding him, i am sure he will be able to atack with them too :)
But i think thats not it - "that" jutsu has to do with life power of Naruto. Jiraya understood that Naruto grew up as an orphan he had bad times, but his life power was so strong that he still was able to surpress the Kyubbi. I think it will be not Mokuton jutsu but something more advanced than it.

[DevilsNeverCry]

It's fairly obvious Naruto grew in basic skills from the training. Unfortunately not much else.

However; Sasukes growth from his training with Kakashi in Chuunin Exam arc showed much more growth in basic skill such as speed etc. where Naruto seemed only to gain the ability to use a bigger Rasengan and be more creative with clones.

By now he ought to be a lot more clever in general and he ought to know a heap of Wind style jutsu so his arsenal grows without the use of ridiculous powerups like Sage mode and Rikudo Cloak. However Kishi isn't creative enough with his main character to just improve him on a basic level, so it hits overkill with these powerups.

[kkck]

Well, while sasuke trained with kakashi the focus of the training was different from what naruto went through with jiraiya. It's basically the same situation I mentioned before. Naruto had to master the basics while sasuke already mastered that before he even finished the academy. Since naruto had to learn the fundamental garbage he should have learned as a toddler he was left with that pervert guy. Jiraiya did take responsibility for naruto's training and instead of actually teaching naruto the fundamentals he went for the summoning jutsu and kyubi chakra though. Had the immediate events not been driven by the plot into an scenario where only the kyubi's chakra and summoning jutsu could have saved naruto it would have even been a bad idea to go in that direction though. As we know, getting kyubi's chakra weakened the kyubi seal and even if Naruto did get a quick powerup through the kyubi in turn his fundamental skills did not actually improve. Wouldn't it have been better for naruto to have the most basic shinobi skills before moving on to controlling a biju? Naruto was in no condition to learn advance ninjutsu during the first half of the series and had he not been the main character there would not have been a sliver of a chance in hell of him pulling that without first going all the way through the academy again(or at least go through something like jiraiya's training).

[Eprst]

Well it is sad to admit but we probably get to see "that" jutsu at the end - cuz now Naruto is concenrated on using the Qbs chakra.

[lawlett-kun]

Imo opinion he taught him Oadama rasengan which we saw and a sealing technique since I guess J-man realized that for uzumaki sealings is a must

[Nonlife]

Imo opinion he taught him Oadama rasengan which we saw and a sealing technique since I guess J-man realized that for uzumaki sealings is a must

It shouldn't have been hard to teach Naruto Oadama Rasengan - it looks just like a big Rasengan with more chakra in its composition. Besides, Rasengan looks like a jutsu that can be learned visually; a sealing jutsu would obviouslu involve "nook-smarts" - one of Naruto's waekpoints (Unless Jiraiya had a bikini chick repeat everything as he explained the jutsu's properties.)

*Not to hate, but the J-man SHOULD have told Naruto about his parents; the manga seems to live/breath regarding ONLY the history of the Uchiha clan.

[lawlett-kun]

It shouldn't have been hard to teach Naruto Oadama Rasengan - it looks just like a big Rasengan with more chakra in its composition. Besides, Rasengan looks like a jutsu that can be learned visually; a sealing jutsu would obviouslu involve "nook-smarts" - one of Naruto's waekpoints (Unless Jiraiya had a bikini chick repeat everything as he explained the jutsu's properties.)

*Not to hate, but the J-man SHOULD have told Naruto about his parents; the manga seems to live/breath regarding ONLY the history of the Uchiha clan.

Well Uzumaki clan was knows for their sealing teqs .. I am pretty sure Jiraya taught him that ?well idk just a speculation since noone jnows for sure. And its not easy for naruto to learn big rasengan since remeber before training his rasengan wasnt perfect yet and J-man was working on him to be able to unleash more chakra.

[Eprst]

Yay looks like they will show some stuff from training in anime - next week they will show 2 episodes - how Jiraya will teach Naruto how to break genjutsu. Jiraya was such a genius - he already knew that one day there will be fated battle between Naruto and Sasuke. SO he tried to teach him some contr measures...

[Razh]

Well, Sasuke isn't the only one who uses Genjutsu. Learning to counter it is a good idea for any ninja.

I still hope Naruto learned something that will have to be used eventually. This way, his 3 year training seems rather useless, compared to what some others have achieved. Sasuke, namely, even though he kinda cheated.

[Eprst]

Looks like anime showed something - it showed that Jiraya was tryng to teach Naruto anti Genjutsu measures. And it showed how Naruto mastered OOdama rasengan. But still that was only the beginning of their training - it probably took like one month. So the qeustion still remains - what the heck in the world did Jiraya teach him?

[Max Mouse]

Jiraya taught him how to counter the Genjutsu (Two and half years teaching him this for what?) (There has been only one situation where he was using this and really was a waste of time and useless against uchiha didn't work saved by Sakura)

Kakashi Taught him Rasenshiruken.(didn't take no two and half years)

Killer Bee Teaching him how to control the Nine Tails.(Obvious ain't gonna take no two and half years)

Fukasaku Taught him Sage Mode. (didn't take no two and half years)

Now who is worst Trainer out of all of them....


And to the people who are saying Jiraya didn't taught him nothing because it is something Naruto needs to learn on his own... then what was the point in him going anywhere with Jiraya that he could have learned just by talking to other ninjas like he did with Asuma

[RezzieThaRapper]

Jiraya taught him how to counter the Genjutsu (Two and half years teaching him this for what?) (There has been only one situation where he was using this and really was a waste of time and useless against uchiha didn't work saved by Sakura)

Kakashi Taught him Rasenshiruken.(didn't take no two and half years)

Killer Bee Teaching him how to control the Nine Tails.(Obvious ain't gonna take no two and half years)

Fukasaku Taught him Sage Mode. (didn't take no two and half years)

Now who is worst Trainer out of all of them....

This is all fact, but I find it an unfair view on the entire situation

Jiraya taught him the Summoning, How to willingly demand chakra from the Kyuubi.

(of course he shouldn't have done it first, but Jiraya probably saw a little version of himself and assumed that it would be best to learn these things first)

During the 2-1/2 year skip. Naruto grew in analyzing, Became less hard-headed, Became an authentic ninja that even Kakashi acknowledged that he couldn't hold back against (See the 2nd Bell Test)

Jiraya taught Naruto better chakra control, not on the level of Tsunade, but enough to form larger rasengans, and enough to block Kyuubi's influence. He taught Naruto to control his actions up to a certain level of tails on the Kyuubi.

Cancelling Genjutsu was also great. Kishi may never use it again, but we all forget that Sasuke is an avid Genjutsu user.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------

Basically, Jiraya made it easier to teach Naruto new skills, had Naruto tried any advanced training with Kakashi or Fukakasu or Killer Bee, he probably would have died from the strain. After all before he was deadly tired from learning how to walk on trees.

And with the toning down of stubborness, Naruto grew into a much more teachable student, and points come across to him a lot faster than before.

[benelori]

Jiraya taught him how to counter the Genjutsu (Two and half years teaching him this for what?) (There has been only one situation where he was using this and really was a waste of time and useless against uchiha didn't work saved by Sakura)

Kakashi Taught him Rasenshiruken.(didn't take no two and half years)

Killer Bee Teaching him how to control the Nine Tails.(Obvious ain't gonna take no two and half years)

Fukasaku Taught him Sage Mode. (didn't take no two and half years)

Now who is worst Trainer out of all of them....


And to the people who are saying Jiraya didn't taught him nothing because it is something Naruto needs to learn on his own... then what was the point in him going anywhere with Jiraya that he could have learned just by talking to other ninjas like he did with Asuma

Actually there are other stuff that Jiraiya managed to teach Naruto...I won't enlist all of them, because I know many did this in previous pages, probably myself included...just take a look at the whole Naruto's Return arc, Gaara's Rescue arc(every little fight scene naruto is in), and compare it to Part 1 Naruto...the difference is huge...

Knowing the basics and excel in them just makes it easier to develop new stuff in the future, hence the speed of Naruto's current trainings...
There was also the danger of Akatsuki, not to mention the teacher-student bond etc. etc...two and a half years is justified:thumbs

[Thekid90]

Jiraya stated after his first evaluation, that Naruto needs to focus on power then later control. Naruto can master jutsus and techniques like a genius, great inutition but isn't book smart. He trained himself in the basics, and goofed in academy.

J man didn't teach him control for the chuunin exam because he realized Naruto would need years to master true ninja worthy control not to be mistaken with jutsu executions. Also he taught him kuchiyose no jutsu essentially for hone his kyuubi chakra.

So through those 3 years J taught him the basics and essentials. Kb and rasengan speed, kb creativity, and taijutsu and kunai mastery. Naruto's taijutsu was way more wild in Part I, in Part II he dons a kunai a lot and his taijutsu has improved. For example how he blocked Chiyo before Kakashi could even react, or I know its filler but how he fought Kabuto during the Sanbi filler arc.

Also to whoever mentioned Yamato claiming Naruto's different was not that he can trick Kakuzu, but that he didn't foolishly make massive amounts of clones, he sent out like 5, noticed Kakuzu's strengths and weakness, realized he's a mid range fighter with 1 blind spot after he's distracted from his 3 sides.

[Franckie]

Knowing the basics and excel in them just makes it easier to develop new stuff in the future, hence the speed of Naruto's current trainings...

That, and blatant usages of deus ex machina.


There was also the danger of Akatsuki, not to mention the teacher-student bond etc. etc...two and a half years is justified

Naruto improved more within the span of a few days than he did in nearly 3 years. That kind of kills the necessity for a timeskip.

[gnut]

jiraiya said that summoning toads with his current"blue"chakra wasn't possible.he had to willingly draw on his"red"chakra,hence the QB training during the time skip.you guys may have a point,there maybe a particular jutsu when controlling QB's chakra.but,after the time skip jiraiya explained to kakashi,tsunade and i think shizune that naruto had got up to four tails.he also said that there were two incidents where he almost died,by tsunade and by naruto.i said before if hadn't got hurt they may have been gone longer to train,to bad jiraiya didn't know the raikage or bee.he could have asked for help and why didn't he get counsel from the toads on this training method.....

this a post i did in october,they would surely have been gone longer if jman didn't get hurt.but"that jutsu" has to be the QB/red chakra training.remember jiraiya had to be careful not to reveal his parents identities.he may have not known about minato and kushina's presence in the seal.who knows but the QB is the most likely thing for him to tell naruto not to use it.like i said too bad he didn't know bee....

[mattiaildivino]

yeah there's that jutsu that we haven't seen yet. and remember the most important thing,which you haven't been writing:http://www.mangareader.net/93-375-10/naruto/chapter-370.html that jutsu that has to be completed is the same! i am sure!

[gnut]

could it be an upgrade to hiraishan or shiki fujin?like how he took rasengan to a new level....
but as far as teaching,i think it was QB training even the toad says that"remember the last time i let you open the seal".there was no planning that naruto would someday be the jinchuriki,jiraiya is/was passing on what he knew.but he also knew minato always had a reason....

[kkck]

What if naruto's that jutsu is the biju ball? Rasengan was already pointed out to esentially be a mini biju blast except that it is made of petty human chakra. "That jutsu" was mentioned to be related to the cloak form. Perhaps kushina had a similar problem with the kyubi and minato developed an alternative to the actual biju blast.

[elitefox]

That might suck and Naruto know that jutsu is and forbids him to be using it and training it with Bee will actually make him say, this is what ero sennin talking about or something

[hawaplop]

What if naruto's that jutsu is the biju ball? Rasengan was already pointed out to esentially be a mini biju blast except that it is made of petty human chakra. "That jutsu" was mentioned to be related to the cloak form. Perhaps kushina had a similar problem with the kyubi and minato developed an alternative to the actual biju blast.

This new technique is most definitely "that jutsu".
All the piecesmake too much sense.
It's obvious Minato's rasengan was an "unfinished" jutsu.
When Minato sealed the Kyuubi into his son, he wanted him to form the complete version of rasengan using this Kyuubi's chakra.

It would be nice to see Itachi's gift (tsukiyomi) used on Madara as he thinks he just used izanagi, however its just Itachi's illusion, and Naruto hits him with a Kyuubi rasengan.

I also believe that the rasengan was originally a master jutsu that RS used as the Juubi's jinchurriki.

[Eprst]

Yes all that makes sense - Naruto was, is and will be close range fighter - able to destroy any defenses in front of him, and new super Kyubi rasengan makes sense - because ussual rasengan that he used in the fight lost to Sasukes monster chidori.
Rasenshuriken is throwing jutsu - but Narutos style is deliver Rasengan that destroys enemy.