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View Full Version : Team Urahara, Yourichi, Isshin vs Shunsui, Byakuya, Soi Fon



Hystzen
June 15, 2010, 10:16 AM
Battle: Forrest in seretei

Rules. Shunsui no bankai same for urahara,yourchi,isshin.
soi fon only fire her banaki once

Go...and if this turns into a Shunsui vs Starrk arguement i will ask for this to be closed im so bored of hearing about it.

ajc46
June 15, 2010, 02:48 PM
it says no bankai for team outcasts, does that mean no shikai for Isshin and Yoruichi as well? If they can use shikai, then even without speculating on what it is we can assume that it would increase their battle strength quite a bit.

I think outcasts will take this. Bankai or not, yoruichi will be able to take on soi fon. Byakuya is a mid tier captain, and urahara has a pretty good chance against him. Not sure how Isshin would go against Shunsui, but yoruichi can quickly finish soi fon and help the other two out.
If they have time to plan then outcasts win for sure, they showed they can work well together against Aizen. Should win with difficulty, which is still a good feat since two of the team havent even released yet

freshseth83
June 15, 2010, 03:23 PM
Byakuya is more adept at combat in terms of all forms that many give him credit for. Yoruichi said she couldn't face him. I'm sure she's fast and all but Byakuya aint no slouch, neither is Shunsui. Soi-Fon as well. It's pretty evenly matched but We haven't seen enough from all these characters to make a judgement for me.

DEATHBOTT
June 16, 2010, 03:55 AM
yoruichi has proven she can finish soi fon quickly so even if the other 4 are evenly matched she tips the scales in the outcasts favour without even useing shikai.

freshseth83
June 16, 2010, 04:54 PM
Soi-Fon was shattered to even see Yoruichi again, how can you use that as an argument? Soi-Fon probably wouldn't even want to face her, and vice versa. I'd say she would try for Urahara, because she doesn't like him. Which would leave Byakuya against Yoruichi, which to me Byakuya would win. The strongest head of the Kuchiki house vs. former head of the Shihouin house? I got Byakuya. But I still don't see a prevalent winner. To me it's too close.

goldhat
June 16, 2010, 05:05 PM
I'd give my votes to "team outcast."

Isshin was able to tire out Aizen. Even if you say that he was not making use of KS at the time, Isshin still was fighting against someone with 2x captain reiatsu+mastery over 3 shinigami combats. He held a phenomenal skills.

Urahara & Yoruichi can probably take care of Byakuya and Soi-Fon, as quickly...and come to aid of Isshin...if he ever would need one.

DEATHBOTT
June 17, 2010, 01:30 AM
Soi-Fon was shattered to even see Yoruichi again, how can you use that as an argument? Soi-Fon probably wouldn't even want to face her, and vice versa. I'd say she would try for Urahara, because she doesn't like him. Which would leave Byakuya against Yoruichi, which to me Byakuya would win. The strongest head of the Kuchiki house vs. former head of the Shihouin house? I got Byakuya. But I still don't see a prevalent winner. To me it's too close.

what do you mean shattered? i never said shattered. it doesnt matter who they want to face, if the outcasts want to win quickly, which i think they do in this situation, then all yoruichi has to do is throw on shunko and attack soifon. there is no "i dont want to face yoruichi, can we switch places". if soi fon ignores her and attacks uhara she will get blasted. if byakuya steps in, uhara can just attack him so he cant focus on yoruichi.

freshseth83
July 15, 2010, 04:55 AM
i said Soi-Fon was shattered to see her old master again, heart broken when she left and now she returns- how do you think she felt? Shattered, broken down, her heart wasn't in it. Soi-Fon is no slouch, people give her no credit, and the difference between her and someone like Yoruichi is not that great. Byakuya could take Yoruichi, she admitted to such. Urahara i don't see beating Shunsui, Isshin is maybe on par with Shunsui. But everyone of them make shadows for Shunsui to hide in. And Senkei isn't something to be around either. It's pretty even to me, I don't declare a winner.

MissElementality
July 15, 2010, 05:14 PM
i said Soi-Fon was shattered to see her old master again, heart broken when she left and now she returns- how do you think she felt? Shattered, broken down, her heart wasn't in it.

Ah yes,another mental statement,Maybe its because people dont understand why she did it due to their own greed. Many looked up to her or were close friends so when she left their own greed blinded them because they wanted Yoruichi to make themselves happy. They didnt care if she wasnt.

And for this fight,i will gladly say,urahara,yoruichi,isshin take this.

DEATHBOTT
July 15, 2010, 09:43 PM
Quickly... Yeah, Yoruichi would get her so quickly... *facepalm*

I agree with freshseth83, people does not give her credit in this sh*tty forum.

well considering she can go shunko when ever she wants and that when she went shunko in their fight yoruichi could have beaten her with ease staight away, it means yoruichi could have won straight away if she felt like it. add in a potential shikai and bankai and its overkill.

thornofcarrion
July 16, 2010, 03:05 AM
I have voted for Team Outcast and I believe they have too much fire power to take down Team SS. Only Shunsui can put a decent opposition. I pretty much didn't like Soi Fon's bankai. It had the destructive power but it was slow enough for someone like Urahara, Isshin or Yourichi to dodge. Urahara can also use Chikasumi no Tate to shield from the explosion. In brief, Team Outcast has power, speed, and intelligence to defeat Team SS.

thornofcarrion
July 16, 2010, 04:01 AM
(Except the Soifon bankai part. I started to like it, when I had seen in the anime. :D)

Well I like the design but not its usability. May be it was the design and its size. Or may be seeing a pretty woman with athletic physique lifting the huge missile was strange.

Giving more thought to it, her bankai can be proved as a fatal weapon. It will depend mainly on how is it used.

freshseth83
July 19, 2010, 11:58 PM
Soi-Fon wouldn't face Yoruichi, Byakuya would. I think Soi-Fon would try to fight Urahara. That would leave Shunsui against Isshin. With the fact that Shunsui can use his shadow game, color game, wind game, cliff demon game- I'd say he takes that. I'd say Byakuya would take Yoruichi (she admitted she couldn't beat him), and Soi-Fon would be a good match with her speed for Urahara if not a win(plus she despises him).

Crystal Black
July 22, 2010, 09:51 PM
Hello, and Thanks. What I think about this matchup is, it won't be an easy victory but I see the outcasts edgeing out the victory. Shunsui obviously faces off against Isshin, Byakuya faces off against Urahara while Soifon and Yoruichi throws down. Isshin and Shunsui would be the best and most entertaining matchup. I see them fighting equally for the most part but not much was revealed about Isshin's zan powers so he's at a disadvantage against shikai Shunsui. Byakuya and Urahara are about equal in certain areas in my book so that can go either way although Byakuya's bankai will be troublesome. Urahara may be able to dodge them for sometime but eventually will have to close the gap betwee the two. Soifon shown the speed and hakuda to keep up with Yoruichi, and that's it, Shunko and possibly some kido if Yoruichi has any should do the job.

poobert
July 23, 2010, 03:18 PM
Yoruichi > Soi fon
Urahara > Byakuya
Shunsui and Isshin would be close, but in a few minutes Isshin would have 2 people as back up.

Outcasts win easy.

If the fights were different, Urahara>SoiFon, Yoruichi>Byakuya. I don't see anyway it could be different, the outcasts are just way better. Urahara is a genius and Yoruichi can speed blitz + shunko practically everyone in SS who wasn't in the old guard.

The only fight that would be close is the shunsui one. Shunsui would probably beat urahara and yoruichi if given the time, but if he fights one of those two, Isshin would be left fighting either byakuya or Soifon who would be slaughtered. Then Isshin could be back up v shunsui.

Imo this is a one sided match. But I know how some people think that Byakuya is on Aizens level, so I guess there is merit in this match-up.....

Jorge D. Dragon
July 27, 2010, 02:37 AM
I think it's clear win for otcasts. Byakuya and Soi Fong are clearly weaker than any of the other for and I think that Isshin is the most powerful among these fighters, so I can't see any ways for SS team to put a match fot the outcasts.

freshseth83
July 27, 2010, 04:59 PM
Isshin isn't that strong, he came in fresh without having to fight anyone against Aizen. So yeah, it made him seem like he was all high and mighty. GT is great and all but it didn't do anything to Aizen. Urahara is not greater than Byakuya. He's a scientist, Byakuya is faster and I'd say his zampakuto is a perfect match for benihime. There's no way you're going to outdo Byakuya in terms of 'firepower' unless you are Yama. All those petals don't just go away. They go wherever Byakuya tells them to go, and if he chooses so, he would surround Yoruichi. I would think he has something to prove against her.

So it would go like this-

Byakuya/Yoruichi
Soi-Fon/Urahara
Shunsui/Isshin

Byakuya is stronger than Yoruichi, she admitted such. Soi-Fon despises Urahara, and she's probably faster, but i wouldn't say she'd win. Shunsui IMO is better than Isshin. Even with GT Shunsui can hide in the shadows and strike you from them. Plus the color game? A call of black with nothing but black on and it's a done deal for Isshin (seeing as how he's wearing, ALL BLACK).

no_regretsYSL
July 27, 2010, 05:26 PM
Well Yourichi would finish Soi Fon as most expect, Isshin is probably Ichigo strong enough to handle Byakuya, and Urahara I'd say is smart and crafty enough to handle Shunsui's games, even if it was just long enough to get some help from the other victors. Minus Yourichi vs Soi Fon, that would be an awesome fight even if there might be some small bit of repetitiveness with Isshin.

Jackk
July 27, 2010, 10:46 PM
Isshin isn't that strong, he came in fresh without having to fight anyone against Aizen. So yeah, it made him seem like he was all high and mighty. GT is great and all but it didn't do anything to Aizen.

Isshin IS that strong actually. (See spoiler for reasons)

Isshin threw Aizen away across some buildings with a finger flick.

Then, Isshin with a sealed Zanpakuto, was able to push Aizen to his limits in a sword fight.

Then, Isshin was able to do a Gentuga Tenshou to Godaizen, and deal some significant damage. The problem is that the Hōgyoku keeps healing Aizen.

http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/405/19/

Even Aizen states that he felt that attack by saying that he "understood" that attack.

http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/406/04/
http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/406/05/

To say that Isshin's GT didn't do anything to Aizen would be incorrect. Again, the problem is that the Hōgyoku seems to protect and heal Aizen.

Isshin IS strong. I don't think he has even shown Shikai yet... unless you consider that Getsuga Tenshou his Shikai. It could be, but... his Zanpakuto seemed to stay in his sealed state though.

Isshin was also the only one to get back up after Aizen's attack. Then, Isshin proceeds to use his reiatsu to hold the currents inside the Dangai to allow Ichigo to train in his inner world, while inside the Dangai, for 3 months. (which is the time that it would take for Isshin's remaining reiatsu to be depleted.)

http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/408/07/


Urahara is not greater than Byakuya. He's a scientist, Byakuya is faster and I'd say his zampakuto is a perfect match for benihime. There's no way you're going to outdo Byakuya in terms of 'firepower' unless you are Yama.

Actually, judging from what we know and have seen from the manga. I would say that Urahara is, indeed, greater than Byakuya. In addition, I don't think Byakuya is faster or more experienced than Urahara.

Urahara is not just a genius scientist. He is also a genius in combat.

Also, are you really saying that only Yama has more 'firepower' than Byakuya?

I already went more in depth in my explanation for why Urahara would beat Byakuya, in the other thread that is specifically for Urahara VS Byakuya.

I don't want to make this story book post even longer than it will already be... so I'm not going to repeat even more of the things that I already said in the other thread.

http://mangahelpers.com/forum/showthread.php?t=62505&page=3



Byakuya is stronger than Yoruichi, she admitted such.


No.

Yoruichi never said that Byakuya is stronger. You just made that up man lol...

This is what Yoruichi really said: "It's true that... back there... no one could have defeated Byakuya."

Notice how nowhere in there does Yoruichi "admits that Byakuya is stronger." Also, notice how Yoruichi says: "back there..." which is an implication of the scenario. In other words, back there... she would have had to protect a wounded Ichigo and the others while fighting Byakuya. I think she just thought she wouldn't be able to protect people and beat Byakuya at that place at the same time. That, of course, is my opinion and my take on the situation.

Nevertheless, you cannot say that "Byakuya is stronger than Yoruichi, she admitted such" ... because that just simply did not occur in the manga. That was never said.

http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/120/05/

We also know that Yuruichi, while being out of shape in the Soul Society Ark, was able to carry a person and still be able to outrun Byakuya, who is also a pretty good shunpo/flashstep user. And that was the Yuruichi that was out of shape.

http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/119/19/
http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/120/04/

Either way, Yoruichi never said that Byakuya was stronger than her. In fact, Yoruichi was able to outrun byakuya... and Yoruichi was out of shape AND carrying Ichigo!

Give Yoruichi no worries about trying to protect other people while fighting, and a serious use of shunko going all out.. and I think she may have a good chance of defeating Byakuya.


All those petals don't just go away. They go wherever Byakuya tells them to go, and if he chooses so, he would surround Yoruichi. I would think he has something to prove against her.

So what? That doesn't necessarily mean that Yoruichi will lose.

For all we know, Yoruichi's Shunko could blow away or deflect Byakuya's petals.

Since you like to bring up the whole "nobility" of Byakuya. Yoruichi is from one of the 4 great noble families herself. Not that I'm really using this as an argument for why she would necessarily be better than another fighter. Just saying.

Yoruichi is more experienced than Byakuya. She even taught Byakuya some of her techniques. Yoruichi was an official Captain of the Gotei 13 more than a century ago..for kubo knows how long...since she was already a captain before Urahara. And when Urahara became an official captain of the Gotei 13, Byakuya was still just a kid!

Soifon had something to prove to Yoruichi too...but we all know how that ended once Yoruichi got serious with Shunko.

Team SS is not a bad team by any means; however, I believe that Team outcast is overall better and will ultimately win this. Specially if we go by the more obvious pairings such as: Yoruichi VS Soifon... in which Yoruichi could beat Soifon quickly(not saying 1 hit kill...but it shouldn't be a very long fight if Yoruichi gets serious.) with Shunko, and then she could go assist Urahara and Isshin, if necessary.

vizardichigo
July 27, 2010, 11:00 PM
Too easy. Urahara, Isshin and Yoruichi are probably the 3 strongest characters after Aizen and Yama ( along with Shinji) and probably on the same level or a little above Shunsui and Ukitake. Even of Shunsui is on their level, Byakuya and Soifon are certainly not...Those 3 will dispose of them quite easily IMO even with Shunsui...

freshseth83
July 28, 2010, 12:03 AM
Yoruichi said NO ONE back there could defeat him. If she could have beaten Byakuya herself why did she need to train Ichigo to defeat him? See your post makes little sense. She admitted that no one, including herself could beat Byakuya. She might be faster, or better at Shunpo, but she's not as strong as Byakuya. And by strong I mean adept in ways of Shinigami arts. If you seriously think Yoruichi would take Byakuya you have to be biased or just ignorant to what was said. You don't have to quote chapters I've read all the manga and know what was said. Urahara Isshin Yoruichi- all blown way out of proportion by readers because those three had a spat with Aizen, in chrysalis form, without the KS that defeated everyone else. So yeah, without worrying about the effects of illusions, those 3 made a good charge, but Ultimately they all failed.

If you guys are so into the manga and what it says then you would know that Yama has applauded Shunsui and Juushiro as the best captains ever. Not Urahra, not Yoruichi, not Isshin, not Aizen. Go back and read chapter 155. You'll see what I'm talking about. Byakuya is the strongest head of the Kuchiki house. How is that weak? Yoruichi and Urahara might be older than Byakuya, but Byakuya was a prodigy much the way Gin and Hitsugaya are. Ignoring facts like this seems to be abundant in these forums. Yeah Yoruichi was apart of one of the 4 noble houses, but was never stated that she was the STRONGEST head of her clan. It seems to me that everyone jumps on the Urahara Isshin and Yoruichi bandwagon because they got to fight Aizen (without KS). Isshin is probably the strongest of those 3, but even he's not uber powerful like some make him out to be. When other captains don't have to face espada, or Aizen's illusions let me know. Then we can say they are uber powerful too because they hit Aizen with a kido and exchanged some sword strikes with him. I don't buy it- Shunsui is better than any of the fighters here, Byakuya is just as good as Urahara and Yoruichi, and Soi-Fon aint no slouch.

Jackk
July 28, 2010, 04:11 PM
Yoruichi said NO ONE back there could defeat him. If she could have beaten Byakuya herself why did she need to train Ichigo to defeat him? See your post makes little sense. She admitted that no one, including herself could beat Byakuya. She might be faster, or better at Shunpo, but she's not as strong as Byakuya. And by strong I mean adept in ways of Shinigami arts. If you seriously think Yoruichi would take Byakuya you have to be biased or just ignorant to what was said. You don't have to quote chapters I've read all the manga and know what was said. Urahara Isshin Yoruichi- all blown way out of proportion by readers because those three had a spat with Aizen, in chrysalis form, without the KS that defeated everyone else. So yeah, without worrying about the effects of illusions, those 3 made a good charge, but Ultimately they all failed.

If you guys are so into the manga and what it says then you would know that Yama has applauded Shunsui and Juushiro as the best captains ever. Not Urahra, not Yoruichi, not Isshin, not Aizen. Go back and read chapter 155. You'll see what I'm talking about. Byakuya is the strongest head of the Kuchiki house. How is that weak? Yoruichi and Urahara might be older than Byakuya, but Byakuya was a prodigy much the way Gin and Hitsugaya are. Ignoring facts like this seems to be abundant in these forums. Yeah Yoruichi was apart of one of the 4 noble houses, but was never stated that she was the STRONGEST head of her clan. It seems to me that everyone jumps on the Urahara Isshin and Yoruichi bandwagon because they got to fight Aizen (without KS). Isshin is probably the strongest of those 3, but even he's not uber powerful like some make him out to be. When other captains don't have to face espada, or Aizen's illusions let me know. Then we can say they are uber powerful too because they hit Aizen with a kido and exchanged some sword strikes with him. I don't buy it- Shunsui is better than any of the fighters here, Byakuya is just as good as Urahara and Yoruichi, and Soi-Fon aint no slouch.

You said that Yoruichi had admitted that Byakuya was stronger than her, but that is not true. And I proved that in my previous post.

You THINK that Byakuya is stronger because Yoruichi said that no one there could have beaten Byakuya back there... but it was not stated why... and what little we actually saw of Yoruichi VS Byakuya was actually an out of shape Yoruichi, who had just recently turned into her human form after so long, and a Yoruichi that while carrying Ichigo on her back was able to easily outrun Byakuya. (I'm not linking chapters here since you say you read the whole manga and know this stuff)

I stated, in my previous post, the reason why I believe no one could have beaten Byakuya there. And it was not due to Byakuya being stronger because that was not shown nor said in the manga. Yoruichi had to protect Ichigo... I don't think she would be able to protect those people and fight byakuya there and win at the same time, specially due to the circumstances.

Either way, Yoruichi never actually said that Byakuya was stronger than her. At this point, I'm just repeating myself again though.

You keep saying that Byakuya is stronger but there was no mention of that.

I don't think you will change your mind on this one either, so I'm leaving it here too.

I think I had already said everything I wanted to say about this fight.

Team outcast wins this one.

freshseth83
July 29, 2010, 01:52 AM
You said that Yoruichi had admitted that Byakuya was stronger than her, but that is not true. And I proved that in my previous post.

You THINK that Byakuya is stronger because Yoruichi said that no one there could have beaten Byakuya back there... but it was not stated why... and what little we actually saw of Yoruichi VS Byakuya was actually an out of shape Yoruichi, who had just recently turned into her human form after so long, and a Yoruichi that while carrying Ichigo on her back was able to easily outrun Byakuya. (I'm not linking chapters here since you say you read the whole manga and know this stuff)

I stated, in my previous post, the reason why I believe no one could have beaten Byakuya there. And it was not due to Byakuya being stronger because that was not shown nor said in the manga. Yoruichi had to protect Ichigo... I don't think she would be able to protect those people and fight byakuya there and win at the same time, specially due to the circumstances.

Either way, Yoruichi never actually said that Byakuya was stronger than her. At this point, I'm just repeating myself again though.

You keep saying that Byakuya is stronger but there was no mention of that.

I don't think you will change your mind on this one either, so I'm leaving it here too.

I think I had already said everything I wanted to say about this fight.

Team outcast wins this one.

She didn't easily outrun Byakuya first off. He gave up on her, there was no need to chase her. He got pissed off and she ran off. She saying she was out of shape doesn't mean she lost any of what she had. Obviously since according to you she was faster than Byakuya (even though he didn't use his cicaida move). She also said no one there could beat Byakuya, but you think she's stronger than him? You say things like she would have to protect Ichigo, that wasn't stated in the manga, but when I say something that's general and that is easy to determine due to someone's words, I'm not quoting the manga? That's something I THINK? Rightttt... I said that when I stated 'stronger' I meant in a general term, not in so much as strength. I said that in my last post, guess you ignored it huh? So here I am, repeating myself. But I'll still stand by that because if she said NO ONE could beat him, that means no one. If she could have beaten him she would have. Why train Ichigo if she can do it herself? Because she saw the reiatsu that Ichigo had and made that call herself. She couldn't face up to Byakuya, and I doubt she could beat him now either. Soi-Fon is another story, but in my scenario she takes on Urahara because she hates him (remember what she said to Hachi?). And I think Shunsui could take Isshin. So in my opinion they win, not the outcasts.

Hystzen
July 30, 2010, 10:50 AM
why are people classing Yourichi unable to beat byakuya..

1) she is a elder captain
2) she is a noble
3) she has kicked ass without a zan or bankai

to me yourichi is under rated so much. she is faster n out sped byakuya while carrying ichigo. so doubt she slower

shaheer
July 30, 2010, 12:46 PM
urahara and Yourichi cant easily finish off Byakuya and Soi fong .... only nproblem is Ukitake ..IDK wether isshin can finish him off 1 on one ...but Urahara and yourichi can come and help... so Outcast win...
this list is unbalanced if Kyoraku was included then i wud say Team ss wins

Jackk
July 30, 2010, 02:56 PM
urahara and Yourichi cant easily finish off Byakuya and Soi fong .... only nproblem is Ukitake ..IDK wether isshin can finish him off 1 on one ...but Urahara and yourichi can come and help... so Outcast win...
this list is unbalanced if Kyoraku was included then i wud say Team ss wins

I think you got the teams confused...

Kyoraku IS in SS team... Ukitate is not.

The teams are:

Outcast: Urahara, Yoruichi, and Isshin

SS: Byakuya, Soifon, and Shunsui.

I still think team Outcast would win. I have already stated my reasons in my previous posts in this thread. I believe Listing them again would be unnecessary.

MissElementality
July 30, 2010, 11:51 PM
She didn't easily outrun Byakuya first off. He gave up on her, there was no need to chase her. He got pissed off and she ran off. She saying she was out of shape doesn't mean she lost any of what she had. Obviously since according to you she was faster than Byakuya (even though he didn't use his cicaida move). She also said no one there could beat Byakuya, but you think she's stronger than him? You say things like she would have to protect Ichigo, that wasn't stated in the manga, but when I say something that's general and that is easy to determine due to someone's words, I'm not quoting the manga? That's something I THINK? Rightttt... I said that when I stated 'stronger' I meant in a general term, not in so much as strength. I said that in my last post, guess you ignored it huh? So here I am, repeating myself. But I'll still stand by that because if she said NO ONE could beat him, that means no one. If she could have beaten him she would have. Why train Ichigo if she can do it herself? Because she saw the reiatsu that Ichigo had and made that call herself. She couldn't face up to Byakuya, and I doubt she could beat him now either. Soi-Fon is another story, but in my scenario she takes on Urahara because she hates him (remember what she said to Hachi?). And I think Shunsui could take Isshin. So in my opinion they win, not the outcasts.

And frankly your lack of respect for someone who has trained soifon to grow her potential up to where it is now,indicates two things:

one,it is a way of expressing that your IQ is in the single digits,and two it shows that you are so furious to throw down your two cents on Yoruichi that you have no time to think that other people who know how to respect,have a better perspective,and a brain.
[hr]

why are people classing Yourichi unable to beat byakuya..

1) she is a elder captain
2) she is a noble
3) she has kicked ass without a zan or bankai

to me yourichi is under rated so much. she is faster n out sped byakuya while carrying ichigo. so doubt she slower

I dont see how any would disagree That yoruichi can handle this one,for one she was rusty,it would have only slowed her down like it did with soifon.


And yes i definitly agree.

shaheer
July 31, 2010, 01:34 AM
Oh darn am bad with remembering names ...ya i wus saying if both Ukitake and kyoraku is in the team then ss will win ...