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View Full Version : Fantasy Sajin Komamura vs Byakuya Kuchiki



Waking_Dreamer
June 16, 2010, 07:27 PM
Okay im seriously suprised here. On another battleforum there was this same match up, and I couldnt believe at the one-sidedness of what some people thought the outcome would be.

Location- Fake Karakura Town,

Starting Distance - 100 metres

State of Mind- Killer Intent

Knowledge- Full Knowledge for both Byakuya and Komamura

Both start in bankai and have any equipment/technique they have previously shown.

What are the odds for each fighter? Is it a stomp or near stomp - and if so, by whom?

El Samurai Guapo
June 16, 2010, 07:43 PM
Okay im seriously suprised here. On another battleforum there was this same match up, and I couldnt believe at the one-sidedness of what some people thought the outcome would be.

Location- Fake Karakura Town,

Starting Distance - 100 metres

State of Mind- Killer Intent

Knowledge- Full Knowledge for both Byakuya and Komamura

Both start in bankai and have any equipment/technique they have previously shown.

What are the odds for each fighter? Is it a stomp or near stomp - and if so, by whom?

I may be the only one who says this, since Byakuya has tons of more fans, but Sajin would win with relative difficulty. Senbonzakura's microscopic cuts aren't going to do sh*t to kokoju tengen myouou. Myouou is also way to big and powerful for Byakuya to block it's attacks with senbonzakura as well. Really, none of senbonzakura's forms would do much to the giant, and even if Byakuya targets Sajin instead of the gaint, Sajin himself a freakin tank.

I know people are going to argue bring up the Byakuya is too fast rhetoric, but really no character in bleach is sooo fast that another captain level opponent can't touch him. Well, perhaps Aizen is an exception.

DEATHBOTT
June 16, 2010, 07:48 PM
i think it could go either way. if byakuya ueses his imperial swan move i think he could get in close and take out koma. and koma could just smash byakuya with his giant.

can koma use his giant to protect himself? he is always infront of it.

El Samurai Guapo
June 16, 2010, 07:49 PM
i think it could go either way. if byakuya ueses his imperial swan move i think he could get in close and take out koma. and koma could just smash byakuya with his giant.

can koma use his giant to protect himself? he is always infront of it.

Which is the imperial swan move? That final one he used against Ichigo? If so, that's the most unimpressive move Byakuya has in his entire arsenal. That thing was beaten by Ichigo's weak ass Getsuga Tenshou for christ sake.

DEATHBOTT
June 16, 2010, 07:57 PM
Which is the imperial swan move? That final one he used against Ichigo? If so, that's the most unimpressive move Byakuya has in his entire arsenal. That thing was beaten by Ichigo's weak ass Getsuga Tenshou for christ sake.
that was probably ichigos most powerful gt in the series imo. byakuya's blade is like 1000s of blades compressed into one, its definatly his most powerful attack. you're underestimating it because it was used against ichigo.

Waking_Dreamer
June 16, 2010, 08:49 PM
Really, none of senbonzakura's forms would do much to the giant, and even if Byakuya targets Sajin instead of the gaint, Sajin himself a freakin tank.


Well cant Byakuya use Gokei on Koma himself?

http://i204.photobucket.com/albums/bb57/Jonas64/GokeiSenbonzakuraKageyoshi.gif

Koma would be feeling that one wouldnt he?

El Samurai Guapo
June 16, 2010, 08:57 PM
Well cant Byakuya use Gokei on Koma himself?

http://i204.photobucket.com/albums/bb57/Jonas64/GokeiSenbonzakuraKageyoshi.gif

Koma would be feeling that one wouldnt he?

Yeah, but that would leave him completely open to the giant.

Sajin would still be standing from goukei IMO. If the 7th espada could survive it, then so could Sajin.


that was probably ichigos most powerful gt in the series imo. byakuya's blade is like 1000s of blades compressed into one, its definatly his most powerful attack. you're underestimating it because it was used against ichigo.

How could that have been his strongest GT? It can't be by default because he wasn't even wearing his hollow mask. IMO his strongest GT so far was this one:
http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/396/05-06/
http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/396/07/

Waking_Dreamer
June 16, 2010, 09:05 PM
Yeah, but that would leave him completely open to the giant.


hmm..would it? If Goukei is swirling sphere around Koma, will Koma (and his giant) see where Byakuya is?

Also it doesnt say that Byakuya needs to be standing still when using that form does it?


Sajin would still be standing from goukei IMO. If the 7th espada could survive it, then so could Sajin.


7th espada survied it, but was baically at Byakuya's mercy there afterwards. What are the chances Koma could defend against a kido lightning from Byakuya, moments after the explosion? Or how about six rod prison during the time Koma is recovering...wouldnt that just incapacitate him longer leaving Byakuya to follow up with more damage?

El Samurai Guapo
June 16, 2010, 09:19 PM
hmm..would it? If Goukei is swirling sphere around Koma, will Koma (and his giant) see where Byakuya is?

Also it doesnt say that Byakuya needs to be standing still when using that form does it?

Well Zommari was still able to see Byakuya while he was inside goukei, and Sajin is also a wolf so he superb olfactory and hearing senses as well. Also, he could have the giant break into the sphere and shield him with his hands.


7th espada survied it, but was baically at Byakuya's mercy there afterwards. What are the chances Koma could defend against a kido lightning from Byakuya, moments after the explosion? Or how about six rod prison during the time Koma is recovering...wouldnt that just incapacitate him longer leaving Byakuya to follow up with more damage?

The whole point is that Zommari survived it, and I don't see him being anywhere near as durable as Sajin, so Sajin would come out far better than Zommari form a goukei IMO. Sajin is even more of a tank than Kenpachi - which makes sense considering he's a wolf; wolves are renown for being extremely durable predators (they shrug off kicks from elk and bison like nothing). I think los nueve aspectos (the attack Kaname used on Sajin) was far more brutal than any attack Byakuya has, yet Sajin was able to stand up and fight Aizen a short period after being hit by that. Same with hadou 90 kurohitsugi.

Waking_Dreamer
June 16, 2010, 09:50 PM
I think los nueve aspectos (the attack Kaname used on Sajin) was far more brutal than any attack Byakuya has, yet Sajin was able to stand up and fight Aizen a short period after being hit by that. Same with hadou 90 kurohitsugi.

Hmm...but thats the thing as impressive as he was...he needed time to recover.

Whats stopping Byakuya from following up...unless he some how thinks the battle is already over. Im not saying Byakuya is going to speed blitz Koma (as would be the usual argument) but in similar to a Warrior versing a Rogue, Byakuya has the capabilites avoiding Komas attacks while, incapactating, and damaing koma from any range, bit-by-bit.

It might take a while, but Byakuya could very well chip away at Koma to victoy...well I think he has the higher odds at least.

El Samurai Guapo
June 16, 2010, 10:02 PM
Hmm...but thats the thing as impressive as he was...he needed time to recover.

Whats stopping Byakuya from following up...unless he some how thinks the battle is already over. Im not saying Byakuya is going to speed blitz Koma (as would be the usual argument) but in similar to a Warrior versing a Rogue, Byakuya has the capabilites avoiding Komas attacks while, incapactating, and damaing koma from any range, bit-by-bit.

It might take a while, but Byakuya could very well chip away at Koma to victoy...well I think he has the higher odds at least.

Well in case you haven't noticed, the gaint Sajin controls is pretty fast itself. There is no lag between the movements of Sajin and the gaint, so it would be difficult for Byakuya to evade the giant. At the very least, Byakuya will have no time to cast spells or anything else if he has the giant on his ass.

I think that Kaname with his mask on was faster than stronger than Byakuya is, yet Sajin managed to hit him.
http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/385/08/
http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/385/09/

After an attack like that Byakuya would be done for. Byakuya has no mask to reduce the damage of attacks or high speed regeneration.

Waking_Dreamer
June 16, 2010, 10:07 PM
Well in case you haven't noticed, the gaint Sajin controls is pretty fast itself. There is no lag between the movements of Sajin and the gaint, so it would be difficult for Byakuya to evade the giant. At the very least, Byakuya will have no time to cast spells or anything else if he has the giant on his ass.

I think that Kaname with his mask on was faster than stronger than Byakuya is, yet Sajin managed to hit him.
http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/385/08/
http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/385/09/

After an attack like that Byakuya would be done for. Byakuya has no mask to reduce the damage of attacks or high speed regeneration.

Byakuya has Cicarda technique though.

Also how effective would the gaint be if Byakuya went in for a close range shunpo battle. Would that make it Byakuya with his bankai and kido vs Koma under or behind the giant?

kkck
June 16, 2010, 10:09 PM
Not sure about this.... both bankai could be incredibly effective against the enemy.... I think sanji has a shot as long as he stays within a distance of byakuya himself. I don't think he could take byakuya in a meele confrontation.

I could see myoo giving some great trouble to byakuya but I don't really see how sajin could ultimately avoid the petals coming from every direction. I get the impression the more advance forms of senbonsakura could actually hurt the giant. I think byakuya could deal some severe damage to the giant if he uses shukei hakuteiken against it... I guess I'd lean towards byakuya here but it would be tough to deal with the giant.

El Samurai Guapo
June 16, 2010, 11:42 PM
Not sure about this.... both bankai could be incredibly effective against the enemy.... I think sanji has a shot as long as he stays within a distance of byakuya himself. I don't think he could take byakuya in a meele confrontation.

I could see myoo giving some great trouble to byakuya but I don't really see how sajin could ultimately avoid the petals coming from every direction. I get the impression the more advance forms of senbonsakura could actually hurt the giant. I think byakuya could deal some severe damage to the giant if he uses shukei hakuteiken against it... I guess I'd lean towards byakuya here but it would be tough to deal with the giant.

I don't see why you say Byakuya would have the advantage over Sajin in a melee confrontation. In a melee confrotation Byakuya would be at a disadvantage IMO. Sajin is way more powerful than Byakuya. A single punch from him would likely send Byakuya flying through like 30 buildings. If you think Byakuya would have the upper hand because he's faster, then I should remind you that in Bleach you don't need to be uber fast to be able to follow your opponent with your eyes and parry their attacks. Renji was able to read Byakuya's movements and block his shunpo attack so I see no reason why Sajin couldn't do the same.

As for shukei hakuteiken, I remain totally unimpressed by that attack. If Ichigo could defeat it with his lame GT (an attack that can barely scratch Gin's head) then what the hell is it going to against Myouou? The moment Byakuya stops to set up that attack he gets smashed IMO.

ryanzokuken
June 17, 2010, 12:21 AM
this is a good matchup. i could see it going either way. but i'm going to have to give it to Byakuya.

small cuts from the little blades won't do anything to Koma's bankai giant in spread out fashion, but if he were to, say...make a thick ring of "petals" around a limb, having them all cut inwards in dense concentration on an area, he could probably sever it.

attacking in this fashion, he could do some real damage to the bankai, and thus Komamura's body.

not to mention those tiny blades could infiltrate small openings in the giant's armor.

Byakuya's speed and his ability to use some of the "petals" to defend himself while the rest attack would probably keep him relatively safe while still able to push the pace.

i doubt the blades would be much of a defense against Koma's bakai in terms of stopping/blocking power, but they could slow it down some.

but if Byakuya doesn't keep on the move and remain in mid-range, he could get hurt.

too far away, and you're open to the giant's maaaasssive attack range with those huge arms, legs, and that sword. too close, and you have to deal with Komamura himself WHILE worrying about the giant (although up close, it's threat level lowers due to maneuverability issues. it can't crush you with that sword if you're standing on it's hip.)
Byakuya is a plenty capable swordsman and melee fighter, but i don't know...i wouldn't want to be up close and personal with Komamura. he's GOT to have higher physical strength, and although slower, he can really tank through some damage.

i say Byakuya wins with considerable difficulty.

freshseth83
June 17, 2010, 03:06 AM
GT is not greater than Shukei Hakuteiken, all along, Byakuya was clouded in thought with the promises he made to both sides. You really think he wanted to kill the guy who was to save his sister? If GT was greater it would have killed Byakuya. It didn't though. Byakuya left under his own power. Not stumbling away half dead like Ichigo, but Shunpoed away without a problem. Byakuya is a beast, and that's a fact. In SS, it was commented that his Spiritual pressure was even greater than that of Kenpachi. And Kenpachi stood equally with Kommamura. I say it'll be difficult but Byakuya would win.

Senkei is it's most deadly form in my opinion. Each blade could kill instantly if he wanted it to. Maybe the petals don't do much damage but blades do. No matter how much of a tank Kommamura is, Senkei is ridiculous. Not to mention if he chooses to, he can send EVERY sword in Senkei to his opponent. If he dropped his pride in that form to kill with his own hand, it's a rap. No matter who you are no one will sirvive being cut sliced stabbed impaled chopped, you name it, from every direction.

ryanzokuken
June 17, 2010, 03:25 AM
GT is not greater than Shukei Hakuteiken, all along, Byakuya was clouded in thought with the promises he made to both sides. You really think he wanted to kill the guy who was to save his sister? If GT was greater it would have killed Byakuya. It didn't though. Byakuya left under his own power. Not stumbling away half dead like Ichigo, but Shunpoed away without a problem. Byakuya is a beast, and that's a fact. 1 In SS, it was commented that his Spiritual pressure was even greater than that of Kenpachi. And Kenpachi stood equally with Kommamura. I say it'll be difficult but Byakuya would win.

Senkei is it's most deadly form in my opinion. Each blade could kill instantly if he wanted it to. Maybe the petals don't do much damage but blades do. No matter how much of a tank Kommamura is, Senkei is ridiculous. Not to mention if he chooses to, he can send EVERY sword in Senkei to his opponent. If he dropped his pride in that form to kill with his own hand, it's a rap. 2 No matter who you are no one will sirvive being cut sliced stabbed impaled chopped, you name it, from every direction.

1 where? :notrust

2 so, if Byakuya wanted to, he could kill anybody and everybody in Bleach?

i don't see how hundreds of swords made up of the petal blades is really any deadlier that torrents made up of a million of those same petal blades, aside from the fact that in senkei, the opponent is surrounded by the swords and thus less able to avoid them. still, this seems only barely different from the sphere technique he used on Zommari.

Byakuya's bankai is essentially the same in all of it's forms and techniques, save for the white-wings thing.

controls petals with mind < controls petals using hands = senkei

Gran Maestro
June 17, 2010, 03:28 AM
Byakuya wins. Byakuya can cut down Komamura with his bankai petals before Komamura's giant can catch him. I like Komamura's character, I'd like to see him as CC but unfortunately he's not strong enough to stand against Byakuya.

Richo
June 17, 2010, 03:57 AM
I like komamaru however since his bankai represents himself in a manner. every damage done to his bankai will returned proportionaly to him, and because his bankai is slow and big its a sitting duck considering to byakuya his bankai which has a few million petals swarming about. the only thing byakuya needs to do is utilize his speed and agility and swarm around with his bankai around the bankai of koma killing him without even touching him.
Byakuya would probably need senkei in order to defeat koma though, it will be a hard battle because byakuya cant be hit because then it would over for him.


Byakuya wins. Byakuya can cut down Komamura with his bankai petals before Komamura's giant can catch him. I like Komamura's character, I'd like to see him as CC but unfortunately he's not strong enough to stand against Byakuya.
it isnt that koma isnt strong enough, its he is not fast enough and the sheer size of his bankai isnt helping alot.

Gran Maestro
June 17, 2010, 04:33 AM
it isnt that koma isnt strong enough, its he is not fast enough and the sheer size of his bankai isnt helping alot.

Yes, I know, I didn't mean "brute strength". :)

Komamura's bankai couldn't defeat Kenpachi (with eyepatch), even after Kenpachi fought Tousen's bankai. Hollow Tousen defeated him instantly and he went bankai against a fraccion. Komamura is the weakest captain in my power rankings.

If Byakuya tries to attack the giant, he may have a hard time but if he attacks Komamura's body directly, the fight won't take long. Komamura has great endurance but it doesn't mean he can withstand the injury from thousands of petals. Komamura's bankai is purely offensive, it doesn't provide any defense against the petals.

kkck
June 17, 2010, 05:44 AM
1 where? :notrust

2 so, if Byakuya wanted to, he could kill anybody and everybody in Bleach?

i don't see how hundreds of swords made up of the petal blades is really any deadlier that torrents made up of a million of those same petal blades, aside from the fact that in senkei, the opponent is surrounded by the swords and thus less able to avoid them. still, this seems only barely different from the sphere technique he used on Zommari.

Byakuya's bankai is essentially the same in all of it's forms and techniques, save for the white-wings thing.

controls petals with mind < controls petals using hands = senkei
http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/116/10/
It was said a long time ago by ganju...
[hr]

I don't see why you say Byakuya would have the advantage over Sajin in a melee confrontation. In a melee confrotation Byakuya would be at a disadvantage IMO. Sajin is way more powerful than Byakuya. A single punch from him would likely send Byakuya flying through like 30 buildings. If you think Byakuya would have the upper hand because he's faster, then I should remind you that in Bleach you don't need to be uber fast to be able to follow your opponent with your eyes and parry their attacks. Renji was able to read Byakuya's movements and block his shunpo attack so I see no reason why Sajin couldn't do the same.

As for shukei hakuteiken, I remain totally unimpressed by that attack. If Ichigo could defeat it with his lame GT (an attack that can barely scratch Gin's head) then what the hell is it going to against Myouou? The moment Byakuya stops to set up that attack he gets smashed IMO.

I do think sanji has considerably more physical strength than byakuya buthe does have to hit byakuya first in order to do that. Byakuya has shown considerably more speed, excellent shunpo and overall excellent swordmanship. On the other hand, sajin pretty much seems slow in comparison. I am not saying komamura would be speedblitz by byakuya or anything of the sort, I just think in a melee confrontation byakuya would have the upperhand.

I would question whether ichigo defeated byakuya.... Wasn't it ichigo who feel to the ground while byakuya was the one who simply shunpoed away from the battle? Byakuya's defeat was more of a pride thing rather than actual combat IMO. Also, shukkei hakuteiken was matched by ichigo when his bankai mattered, I don't think ichigo's bankai right now is nearly the same as it was back in SS arc even with mask on. Shukei hakuteiken does not even take time to form, it takes but an instant to concentrate the blades and attack. Now, considering shukei hakuteiken is basically the entire might of byakuya's reiatsu and bankai concentrated in such a small form exclusively to increase attack power, I do think the technique could deal considerable damage to the giant.

Eddy01741
June 17, 2010, 10:32 AM
As much as I like Komamura's character (not lazy, not arrogant, very morally upstanding, cares for squadmates, etc.), the strongest opponent he's defeated thus far is a fraccion. Mind you he lost to a uber-powerful resurreccion Tousen and the godly Aizen, but the problem is that we havn't seen the level of opponent that he can defeat with his bankai. All we know is that his bankai is strong enough to defeat a fraccion, but not strong enough to defeat a tousen in resurreccion (pretty vague power levels, no?).

Thus, I must vote for Byakuya with relative difficulty.

Xsoteria
June 17, 2010, 11:04 AM
I think Komamura could tank a lot of what Byakuya could throw at him but there is no way that he would land a hit. Even if he somehow did, there's Cicada. Senkei would be the end of him, with further increasing the speed gap, and as everyone said, he would just chip away at his real body (why would he even attack the giant).

There is a reason why everyone keeps yelling speed speed in this thread, and that is because speed would be the decisive factor.

Hystzen
June 17, 2010, 11:46 AM
koma could tank some attacks but the main trouble is that attackin komas giant aso hurts koma...so if byakuya ignore koma himself then goes kido n banak assualt on the giant it will wear koma down.

it wont be easy tho koma is one cool dude

AlB
June 17, 2010, 11:56 AM
I think komamura is going to win with relative difficulty. the only way I see byakuya doing any damage to Koma is Gōkei, asumming he'll be able to get to Komamura, which I don't see happening. his only shot is to make his bankai petals go at Komamura directly, but even that won't be lethal. Koma's bankai sword is pretty massive...

let's say:
Koma's defence against petals - Medium/high
Koma's defence against imperial sword - high
koma's defence against gokei - high

Byakuya's defence against destructive power of Koma's bankai - none

he will be totaly devastated. fact is that the claims that Koma's bankai is slow is a common misconception on the forums. why is slow? just because he can't keep up with Aizen? :notrust but he pretty well managed to land a hit on hollowfied Tousen, and if byakuya is faster than hollow Tousen then I'm a queen of England. and the damage!!!: Tousen's entire left arm was friggin destroyed, if not for high speed regeneration he would be done for in no time. and mind you - Byakuya has no such thing as high speed regeneration.

kkck
June 17, 2010, 12:03 PM
I personaly don't think byakuya could hope to hurt the giant with kido.... I think it'd be similar to starrk using cero to fight love, completely and hopelessly useless. Byakuya's bankai can be useful but it depends on a number of things. I doubt the petals themselves could cut the armor of the giant but it'd be pretty bad if they can get under the armor and hurt the giant from within. Byakuya also has more than enough petals to target the giant and komamura at the same time. That would hurt komamura, stall the giant and hide byakuya from komamura. Senkei explosively increases byakuya's attack power.... something like that could indeed actually hurt the giant IMO. shukei hakuteiken could deal some severe damage as well considering it basically concentrates every ounce of power byakuya has....

ryanzokuken
June 17, 2010, 12:57 PM
Yes, I know, I didn't mean "brute strength". :)

Komamura's bankai couldn't defeat Kenpachi (with eyepatch), even after Kenpachi fought Tousen's bankai. Hollow Tousen defeated him instantly and he went bankai against a fraccion. Komamura is the weakest captain in my power rankings.

If Byakuya tries to attack the giant, he may have a hard time but if he attacks Komamura's body directly, the fight won't take long. Komamura has great endurance but it doesn't mean he can withstand the injury from thousands of petals. Komamura's bankai is purely offensive, it doesn't provide any defense against the petals.

just so everything is clear, Komamura and Kenpachi didn't actually fight. they were about to, but then stopped.
[hr]

http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/116/10/
It was said a long time ago by ganju...
<hr noshade size="1">




huh, wow. thanks for the link! :amuse

Gran Maestro
June 17, 2010, 01:06 PM
just so everything is clear, Komamura and Kenpachi didn't actually fight. they were about to, but then stopped.

Yes, they actually fought. The fight started when the execution started (http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/149/04/) and the fight ended when Yamamoto started to fight (http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/156/01/). The interesting part is that Kenpachi is not kind of a guy who will run around trying to stay away from Komamura's giant, he probably stopped it with his sword.

Kaiten
June 17, 2010, 01:25 PM
Tousen summed up Koma's bankai perfectly when he described it as inconvenient. Byakuya's shunpu is quick enough that he could easily avoid the slow moving giant. Due to his speed Bya may not need to release to take Koma down. While using shunpo to avoid the giant he can be moving in for quick hits with his katana. Not to underrate Koma, Byakuya is a poor match up for him.

thornofcarrion
June 17, 2010, 01:51 PM
Kaiten Nicely summed up the match. I will say Byakuya will win this fight with ease. Its just a bad match up. I'd prefer Koma vs. Mayuri. Byakuya's speed alone can decide the match in his favor.

kkck
June 17, 2010, 02:12 PM
Tousen summed up Koma's bankai perfectly when he described it as inconvenient. Byakuya's shunpu is quick enough that he could easily avoid the slow moving giant. Due to his speed Bya may not need to release to take Koma down. While using shunpo to avoid the giant he can be moving in for quick hits with his katana. Not to underrate Koma, Byakuya is a poor match up for him.

I honestly doubt the giant can be considered slow or anything even near that. The giant, being at least 100 meters tall, moves at the exact same speed komamura does. Komamura is not a speed monster but something that big moving at that rate is definitely dangerous.

El Samurai Guapo
June 17, 2010, 04:17 PM
I do think sanji has considerably more physical strength than byakuya buthe does have to hit byakuya first in order to do that. Byakuya has shown considerably more speed, excellent shunpo and overall excellent swordmanship. On the other hand, sajin pretty much seems slow in comparison. I am not saying komamura would be speedblitz by byakuya or anything of the sort, I just think in a melee confrontation byakuya would have the upperhand.

I think strength is more important than speed in melee confrontations. I doubt anyone would argue that Soi Fon would dominate someone like Kenpachi in a melee confrontation, even though she's many times faster. Kenpachi is a much more powerful character, like Sajin. Like I previously said, you don't need to be faster than your opponent to read their moves, block, or counterattack. I have no doubt in my mind that Sajin can follow Byakuya's movements easily (Renji was able to do it (http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/140/15/)), which means he will likely get a hit on him with myouou. Moreover, like AlB said, if Byakuya is faster than hollow Tousen then he is the queen of england (lol!).


I would question whether ichigo defeated byakuya.... Wasn't it ichigo who feel to the ground while byakuya was the one who simply shunpoed away from the battle? Byakuya's defeat was more of a pride thing rather than actual combat IMO. Also, shukkei hakuteiken was matched by ichigo when his bankai mattered, I don't think ichigo's bankai right now is nearly the same as it was back in SS arc even with mask on. Shukei hakuteiken does not even take time to form, it takes but an instant to concentrate the blades and attack. Now, considering shukei hakuteiken is basically the entire might of byakuya's reiatsu and bankai concentrated in such a small form exclusively to increase attack power, I do think the technique could deal considerable damage to the giant.

I never said that Ichigo defeated Byakuya. I think Byakuya could easily destory Ichigo, but shukkei hakuteiken is easily the worst stage of Byakuya's bankai. Yeah yeah, he condenses all of senbonzakura kageyoshi into one blade for maximum offensive power, but like or not the thing broke apart against Ichigo's GT.

Come on kkck, you're an intelligent poster, let's not make excuses about Ichigo's power levels. The manga has never once told us that Ichigo's bankai has become weaker than it was in SS. Can't people realize that the reason for the overly dramatized 5 min long transformation from shikai to bankai, and all of Ichigo's other feats during that battle, were all done to hype up Ichigo's brand new form. Granted, that may have been Ichigo's best bankai-only GT to date, but there's no way that GT was stronger than his hollowfied GT, or that Ichigo himself was stronger then than he is now with his mask on.

Quite frankly, I'm not surprised by shukkei hakuteiken's lack of durability. I mean come on, it's a blade made out of freakin' cherry blossoms. Clearly Byakuya's bankai was made to be used in the form of sakura petals, where it can attack and defend far more effectively then one single sword.

Senkei, goukei, and the ordinary state of senbonzakura kageyoshi are all far more effective than shukkei hakuteiken. Still, I wonder why everyone is focusing solely on which of Byakuya's abilities may or may not hurt Sajin or his giant, while we know for sure that ANY hit from Myouou would finish Byakuya.

kkck
June 17, 2010, 06:26 PM
Do you really think ichigo's power level has remained even vaguely constant? That would not make sense in the least, under that assumption grimmjow should be more than fast enough to simply sonido in and speedblits easily half the gotei 13 captains without them being able to fight back. Bankai is supposed to be a extreme measure, an overwhelming technique resulting from an overwhelming release of power. Tensa zangetsu has barely shown the level of a glorified shikai when compared to what bankai is supposed to be. Not to mention ichigo can barely control his own power.... He has several times the reiatsu of a captain and does not even feel it. ichigo has some severe issues controlling his power and his relationship with his zampakuto has been less than adequate considering shirosaki's friendly hostile takeover and the fact that ichigo has talked with zangetsu like 3 times and since then he has not even tried to speak with the guy for a least 4 months.

Shukei hakuteiken was not just defeated with GT. Ichigo gathered his GT and charged at byakuya at full strength, basically something similar to what he did against ulquiorra. We actually saw him charging his GT and saw the two blades come in contact.

Also, senbonsakura is not made of petals. Senbonsakura is made out of BLADES that look like cherry blossoms, not actual glorified cherry blossoms. Obviously the initial form of senbonsakura is more versatile than senkei or shukkei hakuteiken but then again the purpose of senkei or shukei hakuteiken is not to be versatile, it is exclusively to increase attack power. In that sense, shukei hakuteiken obviously lacks in the defensive department but in turn is has several times more power than the initial form of his bankai or any of the individual blades of senkei by quite a bit. Arguably shukkei hakuteiken has hundreds of times more power than a single senkei blade considering it is actually made of hundreds of senkei blades (let alone millions of tiny blades).

Each form of byakuya's bankai is different and has a different purpose and usefulness. In that sense, analyzing each in a battle makes sense since each would have vastly different effects. For instance, it is very possible the intial form of byakuya's bankai would fail to do damage to the giant but in turn the hundreds of blades of senkei could actually be very useful considering how much more power they would pack. Then further concentrating the blades would result in even more power which can't really be good for sajin. Surely any hit from myo would finish byakuya, hell, a single blow from myo would utterly trash anyone without HSR but in turn myo is far less versatile than senbomsakura and has far less attack options considering it just a huge melee fighter(not saying it does not have a humongous amount of power though).


Come on kkck, you're an intelligent poster, let's not make excuses about Ichigo's power levels.

BTW, whats this about? Am I only a intelligent poster when you agree with me lol....

ryanzokuken
June 17, 2010, 08:09 PM
Do you really think ichigo's power level has remained even vaguely constant? That would not make sense in the least, under that assumption grimmjow should be more than fast enough to simply sonido in and speedblits easily half the gotei 13 captains without them being able to fight back. Bankai is supposed to be a extreme measure, an overwhelming technique resulting from an overwhelming release of power. Tensa zangetsu has barely shown the level of a glorified shikai when compared to what bankai is supposed to be. Not to mention ichigo can barely control his own power.... He has several times the reiatsu of a captain and does not even feel it. ichigo has some severe issues controlling his power and his relationship with his zampakuto has been less than adequate considering shirosaki's friendly hostile takeover and the fact that ichigo has talked with zangetsu like 3 times and since then he has not even tried to speak with the guy for a least 4 months.

Shukei hakuteiken was not just defeated with GT. Ichigo gathered his GT and charged at byakuya at full strength, basically something similar to what he did against ulquiorra. We actually saw him charging his GT and saw the two blades come in contact.

Also, senbonsakura is not made of petals. Senbonsakura is made out of BLADES that look like cherry blossoms, not actual glorified cherry blossoms. Obviously the initial form of senbonsakura is more versatile than senkei or shukkei hakuteiken but then again the purpose of senkei or shukei hakuteiken is not to be versatile, it is exclusively to increase attack power. In that sense, shukei hakuteiken obviously lacks in the defensive department but in turn is has several times more power than the initial form of his bankai or any of the individual blades of senkei by quite a bit. Arguably shukkei hakuteiken has hundreds of times more power than a single senkei blade considering it is actually made of hundreds of senkei blades (let alone millions of tiny blades).

Each form of byakuya's bankai is different and has a different purpose and usefulness. In that sense, analyzing each in a battle makes sense since each would have vastly different effects. For instance, it is very possible the intial form of byakuya's bankai would fail to do damage to the giant but in turn the hundreds of blades of senkei could actually be very useful considering how much more power they would pack. Then further concentrating the blades would result in even more power which can't really be good for sajin. Surely any hit from myo would finish byakuya, hell, a single blow from myo would utterly trash anyone without HSR but in turn myo is far less versatile than senbomsakura and has far less attack options considering it just a huge melee fighter(not saying it does not have a humongous amount of power though).



BTW, whats this about? Am I only a intelligent poster when you agree with me lol....

the size of the blades in Byakuya's first stage of bankai means absolutely nothing when there is an ocean of them all together.

i fail to see any significant difference between the damage level the first stage is capable of doing and the damage level senkei is capable of doing.

hundreds of swords made of millions of small blades, or huge piles of millions of blades.

same thing if you ask me. and actually, they have more ways to be used in the first stage. more versatile.

his bankai stages really are not very different at all, besides aesthetically.

Waking_Dreamer
June 17, 2010, 08:23 PM
^ One possible difference is penetration power.

In senki form or when at least some of the "petals" combine into single swords they can stab and not just cut.

http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/143/09/
http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/143/10/
http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/143/12/

In senki form they can be used to impale the opponent and hold them into the one spot eg. Renji and Ichigo.

As mentioned if Byakuya wanted he can send all those swords at once like Gilgamesh from F/S Night.

Kaiten
June 17, 2010, 08:33 PM
I honestly doubt the giant can be considered slow or anything even near that. The giant, being at least 100 meters tall, moves at the exact same speed komamura does. Komamura is not a speed monster but something that big moving at that rate is definitely dangerous.

The problem is Byakuya is a range fighter. Both his shikai and bankai can be used at enough distance the giants size can be negated to some degree. Since damaging the giant is the same as damaging Koma, senbonzakura's wave after wave of tiny blades could do a considerable amount of damage to each.

El Samurai Guapo
June 17, 2010, 09:13 PM
Do you really think ichigo's power level has remained even vaguely constant?

Yes.


That would not make sense in the least, under that assumption grimmjow should be more than fast enough to simply sonido in and speedblits easily half the gotei 13 captains without them being able to fight back.

How so? The captains are stronger than Ichigo, so Grimmjow wouldn't have a chance against them. What does this have to do with Ichigo's power levels? Ichigo was never as strong as Byakuya or Kenpachi, they both basically allowed him to win.


Bankai is supposed to be a extreme measure, an overwhelming technique resulting from an overwhelming release of power. Tensa zangetsu has barely shown the level of a glorified shikai when compared to what bankai is supposed to be. Not to mention ichigo can barely control his own power.... He has several times the reiatsu of a captain and does not even feel it. ichigo has some severe issues controlling his power and his relationship with his zampakuto has been less than adequate considering shirosaki's friendly hostile takeover and the fact that ichigo has talked with zangetsu like 3 times and since then he has not even tried to speak with the guy for a least 4 months.

None of that is enough say for certain that he has gotten weaker. Especially not after he finally suppressed his hollow and became a vaizard. Do you honestly think Ichigo as he was back when he fought Byakuya would have beaten this Ichigo (http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/282/08/)?


Shukei hakuteiken was not just defeated with GT. Ichigo gathered his GT and charged at byakuya at full strength, basically something similar to what he did against ulquiorra. We actually saw him charging his GT and saw the two blades come in contact.

Against Ulquiorra? Exactly which time are you referring to?


Also, senbonsakura is not made of petals. Senbonsakura is made out of BLADES that look like cherry blossoms, not actual glorified cherry blossoms.

Whatever, tiny blades, cherry blossoms, blades that look like cherry blossoms, it doesn't change the point I was trying to make. If they're meant to be tiny BLADES then why is it surprising that they lack structural integrity when formed into a single sword? It's only natural that they would fall apart in a clash against a real blade. (http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/167/07/)


Obviously the initial form of senbonsakura is more versatile than senkei or shukkei hakuteiken but then again the purpose of senkei or shukei hakuteiken is not to be versatile, it is exclusively to increase attack power. In that sense, shukei hakuteiken obviously lacks in the defensive department but in turn is has several times more power than the initial form of his bankai or any of the individual blades of senkei by quite a bit. Arguably shukkei hakuteiken has hundreds of times more power than a single senkei blade considering it is actually made of hundreds of senkei blades (let alone millions of tiny blades).

I seriously doubt that shukei hakuteiken has hundreds of times the power of one of the senkei blades for the simple reason that it broke apart against Ichigo's blade. Something can't be that powerful if it comes apart from someone at Ichigo's level.


Each form of byakuya's bankai is different and has a different purpose and usefulness. In that sense, analyzing each in a battle makes sense since each would have vastly different effects. For instance, it is very possible the intial form of byakuya's bankai would fail to do damage to the giant but in turn the hundreds of blades of senkei could actually be very useful considering how much more power they would pack. Then further concentrating the blades would result in even more power which can't really be good for sajin. Surely any hit from myo would finish byakuya, hell, a single blow from myo would utterly trash anyone without HSR but in turn myo is far less versatile than senbomsakura and has far less attack options considering it just a huge melee fighter(not saying it does not have a humongous amount of power though).

So what if Myouou is less versatile? It's not like Byakuya is going to get the chance to sit back and try out all the different forms of his bankai, it won't be long before Sajin catches him the way he did with Kaname.


BTW, whats this about? Am I only a intelligent poster when you agree with me lol....


Hahah, yup, that's basically how it works. You're a genius...so long as you agree with what I have to say. :amuse

kkck
June 17, 2010, 09:16 PM
the size of the blades in Byakuya's first stage of bankai means absolutely nothing when there is an ocean of them all together.
Never said anything contrary to that. I don't think you got what I was saying (perhaps misquoted me?)


i fail to see any significant difference between the damage level the first stage is capable of doing and the damage level senkei is capable of doing.
The difference is the concentration of the damage. Something which the millions of blades could not cut could perhaps be damaged with the concentrated power senkei has. Further concentration of blades means more concentrated damage. Basically you reduce area of effect in favor of concentration of damage.


hundreds of swords made of millions of small blades, or huge piles of millions of blades.
The blades concentrate damage, that was the whole point. Basically byakuya has more attack power with his senkei blade than what he would if with a sealed sword for instance.


same thing if you ask me. and actually, they have more ways to be used in the first stage. more versatile.
Again, concentration of damage traded for area of effect.


his bankai stages really are not very different at all, besides aesthetically.
That'd made byakuya a moron, seriously.... Why should we not believe senkei explosively increases his attack power exactly as he said? The difference is very real (unless it turns out crack is among byakuya's hobbies)

Waking_Dreamer
June 18, 2010, 12:34 AM
Whatever, tiny blades, cherry blossoms, blades that look like cherry blossoms, it doesn't change the point I was trying to make. If they're meant to be tiny BLADES then why is it surprising that they lack structural integrity when formed into a single sword? It's only natural that they would fall apart in a clash against a real blade.

I seriously doubt that shukei hakuteiken has hundreds of times the power of one of the senkei blades for the simple reason that it broke apart against Ichigo's blade. Something can't be that powerful if it comes apart from someone at Ichigo's level.

Well one thing to note is that Ichigos bankai blade has a large amount of his bankai reiatsu compressed into it. Its probably the most strongest and durable blade we have seen thus far. It wont easily crack or break.

Gin mentions this when hes fighting him the second time as if it was his blade that was going to crack even though he was attacking. And this would be Ichigos default blade without him pumping GT into it, defending against Gin fresh without any fatigue.

Shukei hakuteiken from a fatigued Byakuya and one probably conflicted inside about the purpose of fighting Ichigo, against a determined Ichigo putting every single last bit of his bankai power into his blade - well just because it lost to that Ichigo, I wouldnt call the attack exactly "weak".

Just saying.

Gran Maestro
June 18, 2010, 03:10 AM
The problem is Byakuya is a range fighter. Both his shikai and bankai can be used at enough distance the giants size can be negated to some degree. Since damaging the giant is the same as damaging Koma, senbonzakura's wave after wave of tiny blades could do a considerable amount of damage to each.

I agree. Tousen stayed close to the giant and the giant hit him. What if Byakuya stays away and use the blades to cut Komamura until he is done for. Catching Byakuya while dealing with the blades would be a hard task for Komamura.

Xsoteria
June 18, 2010, 06:06 AM
Yes.



How so? The captains are stronger than Ichigo, so Grimmjow wouldn't have a chance against them. What does this have to do with Ichigo's power levels? Ichigo was never as strong as Byakuya or Kenpachi, they both basically allowed him to win.



None of that is enough say for certain that he has gotten weaker. Especially not after he finally suppressed his hollow and became a vaizard. Do you honestly think Ichigo as he was back when he fought Byakuya would have beaten this Ichigo (http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/282/08/)?

I think Gin gave a pretty accurate answer to that.http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/405/04/

Ichigo's power has been up and down, and there's been more than one indication of that left to us by the author. I think that SS Ichigo was at his peak.

Imagine if GJ was powerful enough to bitchslap bankai Ichigo the way he did in their first encounter. Now remember Ichigo's fights with Byakuya and Kenpachi. Even if you argue that they were both stronger than him back then, you can't say that there was a huge difference in power. Unless GJ got weaker in the time between Ichigo's fight with him in HM and their first fight, that can only mean that Ichigo got stronger with his bankai (meaning that he would now probably ass-rape Byakuya on sight with his skillz) [option 1] or that he got back out of his power downer which he was experiencing in GJ fight I [option 2].

A clear indicator of this would be Kenpachi who fought an Espada stronger than GJ and cut him in half. Now, unless Kenpachi powered up in the meantime, leaving poor Byakuya in the low-tier Captain level, I would have to say that it was the option 2 from the choice in the previous paragraph.

Sup nub?
June 18, 2010, 10:14 AM
I don't really care how fast Byakuya is literally one hit from that giant and he is mush, however that is assuming Sajin can hit him. That would both definitely need to go bankai to do any real damage to the other though. I think it's a toss up because Byakuya can deal millions of small hits to Koma and deal a lot of Damage and Koma can deal one heavy blow to Byakuya and kill him so...too close to call

El Samurai Guapo
June 18, 2010, 02:05 PM
I think Gin gave a pretty accurate answer to that.http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/405/04/

Ichigo's power has been up and down, and there's been more than one indication of that left to us by the author. I think that SS Ichigo was at his peak.

Imagine if GJ was powerful enough to bitchslap bankai Ichigo the way he did in their first encounter. Now remember Ichigo's fights with Byakuya and Kenpachi. Even if you argue that they were both stronger than him back then, you can't say that there was a huge difference in power. Unless GJ got weaker in the time between Ichigo's fight with him in HM and their first fight, that can only mean that Ichigo got stronger with his bankai (meaning that he would now probably ass-rape Byakuya on sight with his skillz) [option 1] or that he got back out of his power downer which he was experiencing in GJ fight I [option 2].

A clear indicator of this would be Kenpachi who fought an Espada stronger than GJ and cut him in half. Now, unless Kenpachi powered up in the meantime, leaving poor Byakuya in the low-tier Captain level, I would have to say that it was the option 2 from the choice in the previous paragraph.

It's true that Ichigo fights better when he's determined to win, but I think he was just as determined to beat Grimmjow and Ulquiorra as he was with Byakuya. Against the two arrancar he was fighting to save Orihime, and against Byakuya he was fighting for Rukia.

As for Ichigo's first encounter with Grimmjow, don't forget that it took place during the time when Ichigo's hollow was jacking things up inside of him. I'd agree that at that point Ichigo was weaker than he was in SS, but not after he suppressed his hollow.

The difference with Kenpachi and Byakuya is that they went far easier on Ichigo, whereas the arrancar were actually trying to kill him. I don't remember the espada giving Ichigo any free hits (http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/104/14/), or turning their backs on him before finishing him off (http://www.bleachanime.org/manga/Bleach-Chapter-110/%5Bmanga-rain%5Dbleach-ch110-03.png.php), or wearing bells on their head to give away their position, or fighting one handed. Even with all those handicaps the best Ichigo could do was fight Kenpachi to a draw. As for Byakuya, I think Byakuya was a little more intent to defeat Ichigo than Kenpachi was, but he also went out of his way to avoid killing Ichigo. Here (http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/165/11/) he could have easily fired that Byakurai right through Ichigo's head instead.

So no, I don't think either of your options are correct. Ichigo was simply never that strong to begin with, even back in SS. People got the impression that he was on par (if not above) the captains back then, so later on when he went and lost to the espada (which the captains were easily pwning) they just assumed that Ichigo became weaker.

Xsoteria
June 18, 2010, 02:35 PM
I really can't go through the entire manga with my phone, but I will point you to Ichigo's swordtip at Byakuya's throat once he went bankai. Ichigo too could have ended the battle there instead of backing away to fight off millions of little blades etc.

Kenpachi thought the fight to be over once he turned his back on him. Also note that he always fights with bells and one-handed. He gave Ichigo a free shot because he saw that the guy shat himself and was nowhere nearly where his power should be.

DEATHBOTT
June 18, 2010, 03:58 PM
what would happen if kommura used shunpo with the giant? would it also?

Hystzen
June 18, 2010, 06:10 PM
the big advantage byakuya has with the battefield been FKT he can use the buildings as cover n hide. he can use kido n other things as decoys n then attack with his speed n kido sajin...it would be best if byakuya consentrates on sajin himself n ignore attacking the giant.

if he can keep doing hit n runs then go bankai he can win this just it not as easy as people would assume. i dont see why people assume that sajin is the weakest captain.

Waking_Dreamer
June 18, 2010, 09:36 PM
what would happen if kommura used shunpo with the giant? would it also?

Thats a very good question.

Imagine having a shunpo battle with that giant.

So what do others think? Can KTM shunpo?

El Samurai Guapo
June 18, 2010, 11:34 PM
I really can't go through the entire manga with my phone, but I will point you to Ichigo's swordtip at Byakuya's throat once he went bankai. Ichigo too could have ended the battle there instead of backing away to fight off millions of little blades etc.

Kenpachi thought the fight to be over once he turned his back on him. Also note that he always fights with bells and one-handed. He gave Ichigo a free shot because he saw that the guy shat himself and was nowhere nearly where his power should be.

Right, well I'm finished talking about Ichigo. I just realized I've been making the same mistake others have on other threads by posting about something that is off topic.

From this point on I'm speaking strictly about Sajin vs. Byakuya.

Truefan21
June 19, 2010, 01:03 AM
Byakuya takes this he is a well rounded captain, sajin focuses on physical power and is weak in other areas so he loses badly.

DEATHBOTT
June 19, 2010, 02:31 AM
Byakuya takes this he is a well rounded captain, sajin focuses on physical power and is weak in other areas so he loses badly.

he is more well rounded than mayuri and kenpachi and just as much as soi fon and pre hollow tousan, i wouldnt count him out.