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MissElementality
July 05, 2010, 07:32 PM
I ask this because we have not seen much of yoruichi herself,i actually had hope that she would recive some sort of praise from aizen...but unfortunately not...well she doesnt really have anything that would grab his attention.

Kubo still has yet to reveal her Shikai and bankai,cause we still have two more arcs for bleach.

kkck
July 05, 2010, 08:38 PM
I don't think yoruichi will show a shikai or bankai in the traditional sense. I do think the reason for her not having a zampakuto will be revealed though. Either she somehow lost it or she does not use it due to it being incompatible with her fighting stile.

I don't think her strength is all that special when compared to other captains though. Don't get me wrong, I do think she is strong but not to the point where she'd have an easy victory over other captains by speedblitsing them.

MissElementality
July 05, 2010, 09:02 PM
I don't think yoruichi will show a shikai or bankai in the traditional sense. I do think the reason for her not having a zampakuto will be revealed though. Either she somehow lost it or she does not use it due to it being incompatible with her fighting stile.

I don't think her strength is all that special when compared to other captains though. Don't get me wrong, I do think she is strong but not to the point where she'd have an easy victory over other captains by speedblitsing them.

*sigh*... i just dont like how people critsize her for just using hand to hand combat.

And mabye her shikai and bankai are just to difficult to use? that may be another explanation as to why she doesnt use it,and prefers using her hand to hand skills....? I'm a bit disapointed that kubo hasnt revealed her shikai nor he bankai to us,i want to see more of yoruichi then just shunko and smashy smashy.

kkck
July 05, 2010, 09:05 PM
How did I criticize yoruichi for using hand to hand combat? I never did such a thing.

MissElementality
July 05, 2010, 09:08 PM
How did I criticize yoruichi for using hand to hand combat? I never did such a thing.
I wasnt talking about you.

ryanzokuken
July 05, 2010, 09:59 PM
the surprised acknowledgement Aizen gave her when she first arrived and smashed him into the ground seemed to have some respect or at least recognition of being formidable.

After_Image
July 05, 2010, 11:37 PM
I think Kubo hasn't given Yoruichi the opportunity to actually show what she's made of. The few times we've seen her in action have shown, at least to me, that she has the potential to be a powerhouse.

She's one of the most accomplished hand-to hand combatants. Considered to be the most proficient Hohō master. Has Shunko which can do a big deal of damage. Has made her own technique such as Utsusemi: Way of Onmitsu, 3rd of the Shihou; which can be very useful in getting the upper hand on an opponent.

We still have much to see from her as well, like: Shikai, Bankai, and the rest of her Utsusemi techniques.

I have high hopes that Kubo will give her a fight in the future where she can demonstrate how powerful she really is (as in a one-on-one).

If I were to compare her to the captains I would put Yoruichi above most with the exception of Ukitake, Shunsui, and Unohana.

Arrogance
July 06, 2010, 12:16 AM
I think one way to look at her is that it is guaranteed she is strong. We've seen her go toe to toe with people without using her shikai/bankai. You figure we barely know anything about her other than she is fast and is great at hand to hand combat and yet she has still held her own.

I hope that the day we see her shikai we will all sh*t our pants in awe. If its not impressive then I will be quite sad. I also hope that Kubo doesn't make up some sort of reason for why she can't ever use one? The only exception is if he makes up a reason for why she hasn't used it yet and we find it out right before she goes to use it.

Another thing is that I recall the only time we have ever seen her with a blade is in one of the filler movies when she and soifon are attacking hollows. At that moment she pulls out a small dagger. For all we know that could actually be her zanpaktou or just a tool she was using for the time being.

MissElementality
July 06, 2010, 12:36 AM
I think Kubo hasn't given Yoruichi the opportunity to actually show what she's made of. The few times we've seen her in action have shown, at least to me, that she has the potential to be a powerhouse.

She's one of the most accomplished hand-to hand combatants. Considered to be the most proficient Hohō master. Has Shunko which can do a big deal of damage. Has made her own technique such as Utsusemi: Way of Onmitsu, 3rd of the Shihou; which can be very useful in getting the upper hand on an opponent.

We still have much to see from her as well, like: Shikai, Bankai, and the rest of her Utsusemi techniques.

I have high hopes that Kubo will give her a fight in the future where she can demonstrate how powerful she really is (as in a one-on-one).

If I were to compare her to the captains I would put Yoruichi above most with the exception of Ukitake, Shunsui, and Unohana.

Yess,we have not seen much of her....hopefully kubo will just give her one more epic fight,Annd seemed a bit long lasting while she was fighting aizen,even managed to sneak up behind him,making him struggle for a few moments....I dont think the Soul Society would of lasted as long as they did without those vizards appearing to their aid. she was much of a challenge though. Almost a pity that she couldnt take it all the way.
[hr]

I think one way to look at her is that it is guaranteed she is strong. We've seen her go toe to toe with people without using her shikai/bankai. You figure we barely know anything about her other than she is fast and is great at hand to hand combat and yet she has still held her own.

I hope that the day we see her shikai we will all sh*t our pants in awe. If its not impressive then I will be quite sad. I also hope that Kubo doesn't make up some sort of reason for why she can't ever use one? The only exception is if he makes up a reason for why she hasn't used it yet and we find it out right before she goes to use it.

Another thing is that I recall the only time we have ever seen her with a blade is in one of the filler movies when she and soifon are attacking hollows. At that moment she pulls out a small dagger. For all we know that could actually be her zanpaktou or just a tool she was using for the time being.

She does have a zanpaktuo and has already acheived bankai,it explains it in the turn back pendulum.

Arrogance
July 06, 2010, 12:45 AM
She does have a zanpaktuo and has already acheived bankai,it explains it in the turn back pendulum.

I do know this, lol. I'm saying that if Kubo made up a reason for her no longer having one or a reason for why she can't have one right now because her use of it may be obstructed by something. She did escape with Urahara so there could be some sort of complications to her zanpaktou usage that we don't know about and Kubo could make up to account for her lack of using it. That is what I meant.

MissElementality
July 06, 2010, 01:01 AM
I do know this, lol. I'm saying that if Kubo made up a reason for her no longer having one or a reason for why she can't have one right now. She did escape with Urahara so there could be some sort of complications to her zanpaktou usage that we don't know about and Kubo could make up to account for her lack of using it. That is what I meant.

I wonder why she doesnt use it...

Kubo knows better then to not upset me.

Arrogance
July 06, 2010, 01:06 AM
I wonder why she doesnt use it...

Kubo knows better then to not upset me.
Right, you especially figure when you're in a life/death situation such as.....FIGHTING AIZEN, that you would want to at least use your shikai. Yes she performed admirably, but it seems a bit odd that she would only use Urahara's special boxing gloves and foot wear :darn. Thats why I'm hoping that Kubo at least gives us some sort of reason for her lack of usage when the time comes for her to unveil her shikai to us. I just want it to be more than her just having a preference for fighting hand to hand with shunko instead of with a blade.

MissElementality
July 06, 2010, 01:12 AM
Right, you especially figure when you're in a life/death situation such as.....FIGHTING AIZEN, that you would want to at least use your shikai. Yes she performed admirably, but it seems a bit odd that she would only use Urahara's special boxing gloves and foot wear :darn. Thats why I'm hoping that Kubo at least gives us some sort of reason for her lack of usage when the time comes for her to unveil her shikai to us. I just want it to be more than her just having a preference for fighting hand to hand with shunko instead of with a blade.

The only explaination i can come up with is that,its very difficult to use,or mabye her shunko and hand to hand abilites are stonger then her shikai and bankai...

or mabye she lost it in the SS,i hope she would not be so mindless as to leave it there...

shinsengumi
July 06, 2010, 02:34 AM
i think aizen already praised her enough for not losing her leg or arm after 1 blow
it may sound insignificant but in reality its a feat that none other than yoruichi+ kenpachi +yamamoto level powerhouse captains can do .

conn-man
July 06, 2010, 01:44 PM
nice thread, and yes, yoruichi is a for sure powerhouse. i think she outclasses every captain under the four seniors, and im sure she can hadle most espada using only what she has shown.

she has enourmous pshysical strength
http://beta.onemanga.com/Bleach/403/16/ the bottom panel on this page shows a huge cloud, a city block wide, of concrete flying several stories in the air. all from her punching aizen into the ground with a barrage of punches.
http://beta.onemanga.com/Bleach/405/11/ this punch is creating a sonic boom.

everyone knows how fast she is, no debate there.

i think shunkou is equivalent to any bankai,
http://beta.onemanga.com/Bleach/405/12/ just a spark blew right through hougzens gaurd.
and i cant wait to see her do this again http://beta.onemanga.com/Bleach/158/19-20/ an enourmous shunkou blast.
http://beta.onemanga.com/Bleach/159/01/ and heres the damage from it

MissElementality
July 06, 2010, 02:04 PM
nice thread, and yes, yoruichi is a for sure powerhouse. i think she outclasses every captain under the four seniors, and im sure she can hadle most espada using only what she has shown.

she has enourmous pshysical strength
http://beta.onemanga.com/Bleach/403/16/ the bottom panel on this page shows a huge cloud, a city block wide, of concrete flying several stories in the air. all from her punching aizen into the ground with a barrage of punches.
http://beta.onemanga.com/Bleach/403/16/ this punch is creating a sonic boom.

everyone knows how fast she is, no debate there.

i think shunkou is equivalent to any bankai,
http://beta.onemanga.com/Bleach/405/12/ just a spark blew right through hougzens gaurd.
and i cant wait to see her do this again http://beta.onemanga.com/Bleach/158/19-20/ an enourmous shunkou blast.
http://beta.onemanga.com/Bleach/159/01/ and heres the damage from it

And the fact she took out the tenth espadas effortlessly,with only using hand to hand(of course people will discredit her for doing this) as yammy was defeated several times, the fact that she could do that with her bare hands is impressive, for a non hybrid. If she had used a Zanpaktou instead of her limbs, Yammy most likely would have died.

I'd state that I she is in the high tier:

Here http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/108/07/ Shunsui states that if he got hit by Chad's attack that it would be very "nasty." Obviously this means Chad is capable of dealing reasonable damage to him if he could land an attack.

Here http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/191/16/ we see Chad bringing back his fist, bursting with energy to throw a punch. Then http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/191/17/ the resulting explosion from his punch. Then http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/191/18/ Yammy completely unharmed and Chad with a very damaged arm.

This should clearly demonstrate the level of durability that even the weakest Espada has compared to a Captain.

Simply taking down Yammy is not impressive. He is quite obviously very slow and stupid.


But taking him down unarmed is however because it demonstrates the extreme force Yoruichi can put behind a punch,and only bear hands,yoruichi didnt take in much damage while doing this.

She got hurt fighting Yami because she actually let some slack in her own spiritual pressure, underestimating him a wee bit too much. If she'd not overdone it with no preparation, used a zanpakuto, or struck with Flashcry to break the tension first then she'd have walked away largely unscathed. Tough woman. No doubt a very powerful ex-captain.

Kaiten
July 06, 2010, 02:47 PM
There is the possibility her zanpakutou is not useful in combat. That's a wild stab in the dark but there's not much to go on.


Another thing is that I recall the only time we have ever seen her with a blade is in one of the filler movies when she and soifon are attacking hollows. At that moment she pulls out a small dagger. For all we know that could actually be her zanpaktou or just a tool she was using for the time being.

I'm pretty sure she was shown with a short sword, around the time Ichigo started bankai training, when they showed her together with a young Urahara.

Gran Maestro
July 07, 2010, 03:43 AM
I think she's pretty strong. She's on the same tier with captains like Gin, Urahara, Byakuya and Kenpachi.

Magikabullet
July 09, 2010, 12:35 PM
Mid-high me thinks, probably elder captain level if her zan turns out to be good.

Xsoteria
July 09, 2010, 05:45 PM
I think she's in the high-tier captain league. Her wiki (http://bleach.wikia.com/wiki/Yoruichi_Shihōin) is quite informative. She has a zanpakuto, and she's a proficient swordsman.

For comparison, here are Soifon's stats, Soifon being inferior to Yoruichi, I believe:
Offense 80
Defense 60
Mobility 100
Reiatsu 60
Physical Strength 100

These are quite impressive stats and I don't think we've seen properly just how strong Soifon is in comparison, since she fought only Yoru and Baraggan (and she couldn't show her stuff there obviously). And comparatively I hold her similarly how I hold Sakura and Tsunade.

So in comparison, I think it's pretty obvious Yoruichi is no small fry.

MissElementality
July 09, 2010, 06:47 PM
I think she's in the high-tier captain league. Her wiki (http://bleach.wikia.com/wiki/Yoruichi_Shihōin) is quite informative. She has a zanpakuto, and she's a proficient swordsman.

For comparison, here are Soifon's stats, Soifon being inferior to Yoruichi, I believe:
Offense 80
Defense 60
Mobility 100
Reiatsu 60
Physical Strength 100

These are quite impressive stats and I don't think we've seen properly just how strong Soifon is in comparison, since she fought only Yoru and Baraggan (and she couldn't show her stuff there obviously). And comparatively I hold her similarly how I hold Sakura and Tsunade.

So in comparison, I think it's pretty obvious Yoruichi is no small fry.

I believe yoruichi completely outclasses soifon,but i seriously dont think it much of a comparision really,and even at the end of their battle soifon broke down into tears,admitting that yoruichi is far stronger then her.

Magikabullet
July 09, 2010, 07:30 PM
@Xsoteria

The only problem with those stats is that they are completely inadequate for any comparison between the captains as they do not denote any fixed value but instead only some percentages of each captain's individual potential...

Example: Aizen: 90 in speed, Byakuay: 90 in speed , Hitsugaya: 90 in speed.
However this doesn't mean that Aizen=Byakuya=Hits in speed. I just mean that all three have reached 90% of their personal potential, which obviously differs among them, especially in Aizen's case.

Xsoteria
July 10, 2010, 09:09 AM
You said that in the other thread as well, but I can't help but think there's something else with the stats. I mean, I doubt that Hitsugaya the Genius has very little room for progress, as his stats suggest. His abilities are all pretty high up according to his stats, yet his still very young and undeveloped according to his potential.

There's always trouble with stats in shounen, but in this case, even if you're right, I'd say that Soifon's stats are pretty impressive nevertheless. We know her speed is superior to most captains and yet her physical strength is on the same level as her speed. I'd say that's pretty high.

Magikabullet
July 10, 2010, 10:45 AM
I mean, I doubt that Hitsugaya the Genius has very little room for progress, as his stats suggest. His abilities are all pretty high up according to his stats, yet his still very young and undeveloped according to his potential.

There's always trouble with stats in shounen, but in this case, even if you're right, I'd say that Soifon's stats are pretty impressive nevertheless. We know her speed is superior to most captains and yet her physical strength is on the same level as her speed. I'd say that's pretty high.
And why does Hitsugaya need to have incredible potential? or much more potential than his stats suggest, after all the fact that he's a prodigy does not derive from him having an abnormal superior limit like Yamma or Aizen or Ichigo have, that's a common misconception, ..but instead it points to his ability to improve very quickly and reach the same level some other captain would much faster, it has a lot less to do with what he'll ultimately be capable of and more to do with how fast he'll get there. You see, there is nothing to say that Hits will ever be Yamma level, because he'll simply progress until he hits his limit (like many of the catain levels we've seen) and stop there, except he'll do it faster.

And about Soi fon..well yes her speed is indeed superior to most captains ,that's a fact...but what do you mean "physical strength"? if you mean the other 100pts, then that's stamina, it means she's in peak physical condition, but strength in bleach comes from reiastu, actually it might as well be replaces with reiastu and Soi fon is no reiatsu monster, that is, until she does show something of the sort....

Xsoteria
July 10, 2010, 11:09 AM
I think none of the Captains have reached their shinigami limit. And I think that once they do, they should be at "Yama level" who obviously hit max level, but I doubt that they would be AS powerful as he is.

Being a child prodigy doesn't mean that you're only faster at achieving your max power, it also tells something about your potential power.

And about Soi Fon's physical strength - I mean just that, her physical strength. Nowhere is it implied that your physical strength is equal to the amount of your reiatsu. I think Byakuya doesn't boast a great deal of physical strength for example, but he has an impressive reiatsu. On the other hand people like Komamura have been noted as raw brawlers with plenty of strength yet I doubt Koma's reiatsu exceeds Byakuya's. And even if it does, I doubt it's significant.

Magikabullet
July 10, 2010, 07:42 PM
I think none of the Captains have reached their shinigami limit. And I think that once they do, they should be at "Yama level" who obviously hit max level, but I doubt that they would be AS powerful as he is.
Actually why would you think that? That would mean that everyone has the very same amount of potential, and that is impossible. Not everyone has the potential to one day become Yama-like. Actually almost nobody does. And it gets worse, by your logic of equal potential, not just the captains but ALL shinigami have the inherent potential to become Yama-like given enough time...and that is an obvious fallacy.

Being a child prodigy doesn't mean that you're only faster at achieving your max power, it also tells something about your potential power.
That it may, but while that is true being a prodigy is in no way a guarantee of huge potential. First off, it means you have a very good growth rate, the potential could be there nor it might not.

And about Soi Fon's physical strength - I mean just that, her physical strength
You weren't referring to the "physical strength" in the databook? The one that is supposed to be translated as "stamina"?

Nowhere is it implied that your physical strength is equal to the amount of your reiatsu
No intention to be rude at all, but, you know, there is that thing called...the Bleach manga -_-.

No dude, the mechanism of power in bleach makes it so reiroku=physical strength, that and the correct control of it, but you hardly need control if you have quantity.
Why does Kenpachi have huge strength? because of his reiastu
Why could Ichigo equal his power? because he matched his reiastu output
Why can Aizen frekin catch swords with his hands? ohm I dunno, might have to do with the fact he has an immense amount of reiatsu (and brilliant control over it as well)
Why does kenpachi's patch eat his reiastu? so he doesn't overpower his opponent.
Shinigami are spirit beings, for them spirit power means the most basic kind of strength, physical strength...the more you have, the stronger you become (literally) and the more untouchable you become since..
"when two spirit forces but heads, the weaker one gets hurt" the more reiroku you have the more you will affect others weaker ones and the less they will be able to affect you-this goes not only for physical strength or physical contact, but for the more basic forms of kido as well.

You should think of spiritual beings (not just shinigami) as masses of reiroku with a mind and a center (soul, dunno to much how the soul ties in to well yet), what is a smaller mass going to do to a bigger one? not much..it's attacks (physical or otherwise) will bounce off. And that's what happens when two spirit beings fight each other. It's all bout canceling out the other guy's power with yours, if you can't, you're gonna get hurt.

I think you were referring to stamina, that does differ regardless of power output, because it denotes how long a a shinigami can keep exerting reiroku (from his soul presumably) and not the amount he can exert at any given moment (which would be power output).

The db shows Soi as having maxed stamina, not reiroku, and she's never shown to have a huge output of it in the manga either.

Xsoteria
July 10, 2010, 09:10 PM
If you care enough to take a look at the db, you will see that, in fact, the kanji is "body power". How you got stamina and not physical power out of that, I'm not exactly sure. If you don't know japanese, you can check with any of the translators, but I really have no reason to lie to you.

Reiryoku or reiatsu as we all mistakenly like to call it, speaks of the amount of internal energy a character has. Think of it as chakra I suppose. Nowhere in the manga is that inner energy directly connected to the actual physical force a character can exert. Aizen is capable of catching swords because yes he is strong, but as Kenpachi long ago said, if the reiatsu flowing out of your body is much stronger than the one your opponent is exerting, his blade will be dulled against you and he wont be able to cut you.

That is about all of the mechanics we have seen so far. And as I said, different captains have different physical traits. Some show that they are more durable, some are faster and some are more powerful (as in the actual muscle power, or physical power). There is no reason to believe that all captains have abilities amounting exactly to their inner energy reserves.

While reiatsu is a good indicator of a character's strength, it most certainly isn't the only differential between them.

As for Yama argument. What I said is not a logical fallacy if you consider the fact that we've been told that as time goes by, shinigami advance in their powers. Combine that with the fact that Aizen said that there is a shinigami limit to be reached, where you cannot advance anymore through time or practice, and you will see that it is not unreasonable at all to say that once the captains live as long as Yama does, and reach the shinigami limit, they will be on his level of power. Now, for sure they wont be exactly as powerful as he is, since there are different limits for every character (as shown when Aizen who also probably reached shinigami level hesitates to fight Yama), but that doesn't mean that they wont be able to fight on Yama's level. You might also want to take into consideration that all of the captains present have been captains for less than 100 years (save for the top 3). They are very young, especially when compared to Yama who is positively ancient.

igotthegoods
July 10, 2010, 10:40 PM
The last few posts seem to be straying a little too far off-topic. If we could get the topic back to how strong Yoruichi is, that would be great. Thanks. :)