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View Full Version : Discussion The Obvious And Not So Obvious Reasons Why Captains Don't Go Bankai And Survive Fights



MacLeodoftheClan
September 02, 2010, 03:01 PM
Clearly if you and your opponent both have Bankai, you wouldn't turn yours on because your opponent can do likewise. If he's outmatched you so far it is likely to remain the case post-Bankai.

In feudal japan when opposing armies of samurai were (roughly) evenly matched their generals would walk up and duel first and the result of this fight would determine how their armies would react. A draw would mean both of their armies would walk off. Its a ritual designed to preserve lives.

Shikai tests the combatants' mettle and in that mode it is also possible to win or a lose a fight without the imposition of losing/taking a life which Bankai brings.

This must be the traditionally accepted way of fighting among shinigami as they live in a feudal state resembling Japan. (This contrasts hollows who naturally eat their opponents.)

I only registered to say this, most of the Captains were spared their lives Because they didn't go Bankai in Karakura Town!

Note: Just making a note here to explain that this threads topic has been expanded a bit. While also being able to discuss MacLeodoftheClan's theory, anyone can post their general thoughts, ideas, and theories on why Captains may hold back on their bankais and have yet to use them in combat. Many people have different opinions and ideas on why they have yet to be used so I thought opening this thread up for overall discussion on the matter would be fitting. I hope you enjoy this topic and I'm looking forward to what people have to say. :)

ryanzokuken
September 02, 2010, 03:10 PM
the difference is that all of creation is at threat if Aizen is to succeed. this isn't just a battle in a war for land or profits.

if he isn't stopped, all is fucked.

so what if you die because you went bankai and then so did he??
if you don't, and he beats you anyways, and succeeds, all is forfeit and you'll probably die anyways, or worse.

better to throw everything you've got at him and do everything possible to stop him. if you die in trying, it's better than not trying and dying anyways.

El Samurai Guapo
September 02, 2010, 03:53 PM
Yeah, there's no logical reason why they shouldn't have gone bankai. They obviously didn't do it for plot reasons. Now that Ichigo has surpassed them all, the only way for them to even be relevant is for them to power up quite a bit in the future. Kubo will probably give the remaining captains who've yet to reveal their bankais (Isshin, Retsu, Juushirou, Shunsui, Love, Rose, Shinji, Kensei, Kisuke, Yoruichi) some pretty crazy abilities. We can already tell from their shikai's that their bankais will have some nasty traits. Take Shunsui and his games for instance, or Rose and his music spells.

Who knows what'll become of the captains who've already shown theirs though. I'm pretty sure that Yammi will be Byakuya, Mayuri, and Kenpachi's final battle in bleach. Soi Fon and Sajin are probably done fighting too. Who knows about Toushirou; since he's a fan favorite he may get another fight.

MacLeodoftheClan
September 02, 2010, 03:59 PM
I gave you the logic. It was exactly a fight over fiefdom. Aizen isn't AKU. He didn't threaten 'all existence as we know it' with his rise to power he only threatened Sovereignty. In this type of fight noone needs to lose their life.

And as is amply stated by every single Captain in Bleach (in one way or another) being dragged into using their Bankai in a fight is an act that warrants no mercy...

Magnus
September 02, 2010, 04:11 PM
MacLeodoftheClan, the reason you stated is interesting but not thaaaat obvious ^^"

If the captains went Bankai and still were defeated by Aizen, that would make them look even more weak and pathetic. Kubo was planning for Ichigo to be the one who will defeat Aizen since he's the main character (the hero is always the one who beats the final boss), and so the captains couldn't win against Aizen because of plot choices.
But still, we can assume that Aizen didn't let them and the time to perform their Bankais and defeated them before they could try. After all speed also is a significant factor in battle.

kulash05
September 02, 2010, 04:29 PM
I posted this. or something similar on a different thread but i don't really get what everyone is talking about with them not going Bankai.
1st - Powers were sealed before he could do anything
2nd - Bankai
7th - Bankai
8th - Prepared to do Bankai, fight cut short by KS
10th - Bankai
13th - Taken out when he started to fight seriously right away.
Vizards (i'll go with mask description since i'm bad with the names)
Rhino - Cut in half at start of fight (Lieutenant level, may not have bankai)
Knight - Cut down right away before fight could really start (Lieutenant level, may not have bankai)
Bird - fight interrupted, then cut down right away.
ogre - fight interrupted, then cut down right away
voodoo - Doesn't used sword, to injured from 2nd espada to fight (Lieutenant level, may not have bankai)
bee - doesn't use sword apparently, one hit KO (Lieutenant level, may not have bankai)
Hockey - Bankai
Egyptian- fight interrupted repeatably, cut down right away

Fact is none of them knew what Aizen had up his sleeve. He has always hidden power from them and used different techniques to grow more powerful. While Aizen already knew all of their Shikai and probably Bankais. Rushing into the fight without knowing what they were truly up against was the same thing that got several swords stabbed into Momo. Bankai have always been described as very hard to wield and master and even after all of that, can only last a short time because of the massive power requirements. So rushing in against a enemy with an attack that might only work once and hoping that you are actually attacking the enemy and not an illusion isn't a workable plan. The only strategy that would work was to chew up time until the head commander was ready to nuke the whole place, illusions be damned. And even Aizen admits it would have worked if it wasn't for him planning ahead with Wonderweiss.
[hr]

I have no idea which captains are assigned to each division (I didn't memorize them) and have no idea of which mask belongs to whom (based on your descriptions such as bird, bee, hockey, ogre)

..lol..use names!

Ok, i'll give it a crack.
1st Shigekuni Yamamoto
2nd Soifon
7th Sajin Komamura
8th Shunsui Kyōraku
10th Tōshirō Hitsugaya
13th Jūshirō Ukitake

Rhino - Hiyori
Knight - Lisa
Bird - Rose
ogre - Love
voodoo - Hachi
bee - Mashiro
Hockey - Kensei
Egyptian- Shinji

thecountrygoth
September 03, 2010, 12:13 AM
The reason why the captains didn't go Bankai to fight Aizen is because there was no point, no hope in defeating him. Ichigo and possibly his father are the only power houses that have not seen Aizen's release, and the only captain capable of defeating Aizen was the captain commander, so basically the squad captains just came to take out the small fry so the captain commander could take care of Aizen. The captain commander appears to have been Aizen's only true threat, before sun god Ichigo came into the picture.

It's that simple.

But your historical comparison is pretty good.

niblack89
September 03, 2010, 09:01 PM
I was the stupidest move kubo has ever made. Every last one of them seriously, seriously underestimated him. The guy has twice as much spiritual energy and a shekai that is haxed. When he goes bankai his ability will increase. When the vizards started to go down why didn't they use bankai.

Arrogance
September 04, 2010, 12:53 AM
Overall I think there is an interesting point to this. I don't think this idea justifies everything, I also figure that characters and their personalities along with plot also hold them back from using bankai. But at the same time we can definately see that there is an honor code to combat in the bleach universe. For example the courtesy to learns one name, the opponents like to start off small to gradually learn their opponents power instead of going right in for the kill, many seem to enjoy fighting so they take thing slow to make the most of it, and then the big one is the remembrance of fallen comrades and even enemies. With that, even though they are in war, there seems to be a reflection of an honor system or at least some system of combat in general where there are "unwritten rules". That combined with situational moments of bleach in which bankai may not be appropriate and the fact that they are the last reserve of a captain and his secret weapon is enough reason to why we don't see a bankai in every signe fight because the story of bleach needs to last the characters need to have secret weapons or hidden techniques in their arsenal. So overall there are times you wish people would go bankai but I also see many instances where I accept and understand why a character does not go bankai and move on with my life and bleach.

Magnus
September 04, 2010, 11:28 AM
When the vizards started to go down why didn't they use bankai.
Like I said, couldn't it be simply because they were KO before they could try ?


So overall there are times you wish people would go bankai but I also see many instances where I accept and understand why a character does not go bankai and move on with my life and bleach.
This seriously needs to be more applied.

kkck
September 04, 2010, 11:57 AM
I think the main reason the captains did not go bankai against aizen was that they were teaming up on the guy. Even hitsugaya did not use the full might of it, he used the manageable version which is really not that much stronger than a shikai. If the captains had gone bankai, they would have had their teammates caught up in it.

Kaiten
September 04, 2010, 12:16 PM
I agree that bankai's have not been shown for plot purposes but in not for the nefarious reasons assumed. Firstly, Kubo needs to leave something for the future. Instead of showing his entire hand in one arc, which presumably is not the finale of the series, he has left something for fans to look forward to and speculate about. Second, he would have made Aizen look even more over powered before he merged with the hogyouku. Aizen would have either defeated an army of bankai wielding captains using nothing but his shikai, or his bankai would have been revealed to early. The current fight is better for the fact that we do not know all of Aizen's abilities, if we already knew his bankai that would take some of the surprise out of the fight with Ichigo.


I gave you the logic. It was exactly a fight over fiefdom. Aizen isn't AKU. He didn't threaten 'all existence as we know it' with his rise to power he only threatened Sovereignty. In this type of fight noone needs to lose their life.

And as is amply stated by every single Captain in Bleach (in one way or another) being dragged into using their Bankai in a fight is an act that warrants no mercy...

He is threatening existence. The immediate threat is not threatening the sovereignty of the king but annihilating Karakura Town and all who live there. The Real Karakura was moved to Soul Society for that very reason, that is what Ichigo is fighting for right now. When Yama explained Aizen's plans way back when he clearly stated that the threat to the Kings realm is not the immediate concern, the threat to Karakura is.

kkck
September 04, 2010, 03:50 PM
He is threatening existence. The immediate threat is not threatening the sovereignty of the king but annihilating Karakura Town and all who live there. The Real Karakura was moved to Soul Society for that very reason, that is what Ichigo is fighting for right now. When Yama explained Aizen's plans way back when he clearly stated that the threat to the Kings realm is not the immediate concern, the threat to Karakura is.
I am not sure why but I get the impression that while protecting karakura town and every live there is important, protecting the king would be something of even greater importance. The king has a number of duties and perhaps qualities that make him a king and for whatever reason aizen is after the guy. If the king is truly a divine being, then his life is perhaps worth more than that of hundreds of thousands of people. Lets also remember that the main function of the gotei 13 is not just the fight against evil and whatnot but rather to protect the king.

Arrogance
September 04, 2010, 06:15 PM
I agree that bankai's have not been shown for plot purposes but in not for the nefarious reasons assumed. Firstly, Kubo needs to leave something for the future. Instead of showing his entire hand in one arc, which presumably is not the finale of the series, he has left something for fans to look forward to and speculate about. Second, he would have made Aizen look even more over powered before he merged with the hogyouku. Aizen would have either defeated an army of bankai wielding captains using nothing but his shikai, or his bankai would have been revealed to early. The current fight is better for the fact that we do not know all of Aizen's abilities, if we already knew his bankai that would take some of the surprise out of the fight with Ichigo.



He is threatening existence. The immediate threat is not threatening the sovereignty of the king but annihilating Karakura Town and all who live there. The Real Karakura was moved to Soul Society for that very reason, that is what Ichigo is fighting for right now. When Yama explained Aizen's plans way back when he clearly stated that the threat to the Kings realm is not the immediate concern, the threat to Karakura is.
Yes plot really is a major aspect to it all because Kubo needs content down the road. I like your very practical example. You figure, at least for now, Aizen is the main villain of bleach and thus the main character must fight and defeat him. So for one that gives a few reasons why everyone else could not go bankai against him. As you said that Aizen would be a lot more overpowered if he defeated everyone wielding bankais and he would have to defeat them all to leave room for Ichigo to be the final one he faces. Also if Aizen defeats everyone with bankais then that means Ichigo would need an EVEN MORE INSANE power up and many more people would be more pissed off to see that. Also if everyone went bankai and then end up defeating Aizen because it was the "smart thing to do" then the story of bleach would be a mess because Ichigo couldn't face the main villain. In the end the argument for the sake of plot is circular and reinforces itself in that the fight between Aizen and Ichigo needs to be established and that is just not possible of everyone goes bankai against Aizen trying to take him out.

SuperShuter
September 04, 2010, 09:32 PM
Tite just trolled us really. If he released all the captains bankai there would be no neeed for them. even in death situation kubo kept em' alive so they can troll some more espada or wat not.

El Samurai Guapo
September 05, 2010, 01:59 PM
Yes plot really is a major aspect to it all because Kubo needs content down the road. I like your very practical example. You figure, at least for now, Aizen is the main villain of bleach and thus the main character must fight and defeat him. So for one that gives a few reasons why everyone else could not go bankai against him. As you said that Aizen would be a lot more overpowered if he defeated everyone wielding bankais and he would have to defeat them all to leave room for Ichigo to be the final one he faces. Also if Aizen defeats everyone with bankais then that means Ichigo would need an EVEN MORE INSANE power up and many more people would be more pissed off to see that. Also if everyone went bankai and then end up defeating Aizen because it was the "smart thing to do" then the story of bleach would be a mess because Ichigo couldn't face the main villain. In the end the argument for the sake of plot is circular and reinforces itself in that the fight between Aizen and Ichigo needs to be established and that is just not possible of everyone goes bankai against Aizen trying to take him out.

Ulquiorra should have been kept alive longer so he could be Ichigo's final battle, and Aizen could have been left for someone else.

shaheer
September 05, 2010, 02:24 PM
The only reason is KUbo is yet to design the unrevealed bankai...thats the only reason... like Ukitake and Kyoraku, yama isshin urahara yoruichi etch ..these characters are hyped to be the strongest no doubt ..so their bankai Needs to be unmatchable in some respect or another ...kubo is One man ..he cant just spout out all ideas at once ..else he will be AIzen....thats the one and only reason

Arrogance
September 05, 2010, 04:17 PM
Ulquiorra should have been kept alive longer so he could be Ichigo's final battle, and Aizen could have been left for someone else.
I don't agree with this because there is a lot of mystery surrounding ichigo's life and Aizen has seemed to play a huge role in all of that, since he claims to have known of Ichigo since the beginning. And as of now, Aizen is the main villain and Ichigo is the main character. So those two facts combined together and since this is a shounen is what makes the Ichigo vs Aizen inevitable. Ulqiorra was good, don't get me wrong but he doesn't have main villain status while Ichigo keeps rising up the ranks in order to reach his position as the one to beat Aizen.

So in the end is why i'm just explaining the reasons in plot why others couldn't defeat Aizen with bankai. If this was to be the case then the story would have needed to take a different route and have a different direction with possibly a different main villain from MANY chapters ago but we are too far down the road to just say someone else should have faught and beaten Aizen while too much of the story is already pointing in the direction of Ichigo being that opponent.

Lord.Strife
September 05, 2010, 07:50 PM
The only reason i can see for no bankai release of captains apart from plot reason is because when you are in a crowded environment their bankais will lead to team killing. Yama would have owned everything since i think that his bankai would be massive area of affect damage. Would not matter if aizen is using his illusion if you kill everything within x amount of your person.

Arrogance
September 05, 2010, 08:01 PM
The only reason i can see for no bankai release of captains apart from plot reason is because when you are in a crowded environment their bankais will lead to team killing. Yama would have owned everything since i think that his bankai would be massive area of affect damage. Would not matter if aizen is using his illusion if you kill everything within x amount of your person.
Right, there are some peoples bankai's that aren't appropriate for every situation. IE too massive or maybe an effect that harms the user or takes up too much reiatsu in some way. Soifon's for example is somewhat plot because Kubo obviously gave it to her but it applies to her character in that its not her fighting style and also a nuke is not necessary for every situation and may cause casualties in a smaller environment. Also one nuke drained her reiatsu and Hachi pushed her to her limit to use two so basically if it doesn't one shot the opponent then you drained you reiatsu. User her as an example I am just trying to point out that a captain not using their bankai can also be a situational matter that really requires an ideal situation for them to use it.

Xsoteria
September 06, 2010, 07:44 PM
Well this thread only fuels me even more to think how ridiculous and pointless the entire winter war has been.

Of course if they went all out with their bankais and lost, it would be seen as ridiculous. Of course if they forced Aizen to bankai, it would've been seen as too soon. Of course it would mean that later on into the manga, characters would have lost their trump card move/something new to show and take active participation in battles.

The whole thing could've ended much better if only there was no winter war, which on its own had pretty much 0 purpose in the story.

Simply dropping Aizen out of that entire battle would have been more than sufficient to make the whole thing easier to buy. Captains would have an excuse for not going bankai, then comes Aizen in the aftermath, activates KS and mauls everyone before they can do anything (or go bankai). Then everything unrolls nice the way it did.

This way, Gotei 13 fight like a bunch of numbwits alongside the Vizards, in order to give Ichigo some opening or something, but they fail at it, quite stupidly might I add.

Otherwise, they simply have no excuse for not going all out, when people are dying around them, and hundreds of thousands of lives are at stake (KT).

Now Kubo is stuck handing the rest of the captains overpowered bankais that should put them somewhere in the same league as Ichigo, meaning they all could've used them in the winter war fight.

no_regretsYSL
September 07, 2010, 02:11 AM
^^^ With your logic there is no point in having villains at all because eventually when this manga ends they will be dead regardless.

Circles
September 08, 2010, 03:25 PM
A good excuse is that it wouldn't work well as a team, though real reason is probably to set Ichigo up as the hero. Kubo's efforts to do so was made painfully obvious when Unahana and others were acting like he's the chosen one when he was exiting Las noches.

Omnion_1990
September 27, 2010, 04:23 PM
Yeah, there's no logical reason why they shouldn't have gone bankai. They obviously didn't do it for plot reasons. Now that Ichigo has surpassed them all, the only way for them to even be relevant is for them to power up quite a bit in the future. Kubo will probably give the remaining captains who've yet to reveal their bankais (Isshin, Retsu, Juushirou, Shunsui, Love, Rose, Shinji, Kensei, Kisuke, Yoruichi) some pretty crazy abilities. We can already tell from their shikai's that their bankais will have some nasty traits. Take Shunsui and his games for instance, or Rose and his music spells.

Who knows what'll become of the captains who've already shown theirs though. I'm pretty sure that Yammi will be Byakuya, Mayuri, and Kenpachi's final battle in bleach. Soi Fon and Sajin are probably done fighting too. Who knows about Toushirou; since he's a fan favorite he may get another fight.

Kensei went bankai and got his *** handed to him by wonderweiss.

El Samurai Guapo
September 27, 2010, 05:07 PM
Kensei went bankai and got his *** handed to him by wonderweiss.

I don't count that as a revelation of his bankai though. We only saw a couple panels of what it looked like.

Hystzen
September 27, 2010, 06:28 PM
KS factor....

Soi fon fires nuke..kills Shunsui
Histu goes HH kills most of vizards
Koma hacks up rest

KS is logic reason to dangerous to use bankai on someone who is a illusion of someone else..


but obvious is plot reasons

POW
September 28, 2010, 06:55 AM
I gave you the logic. It was exactly a fight over fiefdom. Aizen isn't AKU. He didn't threaten 'all existence as we know it' with his rise to power he only threatened Sovereignty. In this type of fight noone needs to lose their life.

And as is amply stated by every single Captain in Bleach (in one way or another) being dragged into using their Bankai in a fight is an act that warrants no mercy...

Logic ??? This is Bleach logic has no place here !!!:p

There is an obvious reason having read current chapters the story is far from over. Their may be villains who dwarf Aizen in power and Kubo may be saving the upper level Captains Bankai for them.

As others have said it is Plot .

kkck
January 03, 2011, 01:18 AM
^Well, if all the other characters had all their secrets revealed so soon then there wouldn't be a point to bringing them in either. The remaining bankais from shunsui, ukitake and yamamoto along with those of the exiles are more than enough reason to bring them back and have them play a role in the story. Perhaps even aizen might have a role to play (in the form of flashbacks perhaps) if his bankai has yet to be revealed.

Crystal Black
January 03, 2011, 04:29 PM
What frustrates me is how a whole new set of characters are brought into the plot, w.o even all the old characters and their powers being brought out yet.

I still wonder how none of the strongest Captains (Yamamoto,Kyoraku,Ukitake) brought out their Bankai against Aizen. Aizen didn't even release his Bankai. Nor did Shinji and some of the other Captain level Vizards. This just all seems really suspicious. I understand some of them don't like releasing their powers but accepting defeat even if it means the end of the Soul Society, just seems really suspicious.

I just hope with the arrival of new characters, maybe we learn more of the powers of the Captains and maybe even the Vizards give us a guest appearance at one point.

It would have been a huge mess. Jushiro already said to Kyoraku no to use his bankai in front where people can see, don't know how that sound but it may have some world warping abilities or something. I don't even think we've seen the last of Ukitake's shikai. Yama's bankai would have destroyed the whole playing field. Shinji is in the same boat with Shunsui. If you noticed everyone who has used bankai are the less experienced character/captains. Soifon and Gin were the last of the bunch and oh yeah Kensei! for whatever reason he used his for..

exacta
January 06, 2011, 05:56 PM
When we see the nature of all of their Bankais we might understand. Its likely they would have just ended up hurting each other like everyone said. And obviously Bankais like Soifons and apparently Shunsuis are not practical for these sort of fights, and Shinji's I could also see screwing everyone over possibly.Especially when Bankais are things kept hidden, so the other teamates probably wouldn't know what would happen, not to mention half of them were Vizards meaning even less of their abilities were known most likely. It would've made it harder for them to fight together. Problem is, Kubo should've had some characters EXPLAIN THIS during the fight.

Plus, theres one thing everyones forgetting- maybe they didnt use it on Aizen because they were UNDERESTIMATING him. He was pretty outnumbered. Maybe they figured the odds were in their favor and they wouldnt need to go that far.

I think its also interesting to note that the two characters to go Bankai here were both Koma and Hitsu, both really pissed off at Aizen. Shunsui warned Hitsu to calm down when he did after all.

Plus.....just think how lame it would've been to watch ALLLLLLLLLL those Bankais get owned by Aizen. It would make everyone look weak, and Bankais are flashy and should be shown off first in 1 on 1 or maybe 1 on 2/2 on 2 fights. When theres like 10 people involved its just too much.

Also, some characters were damaged from the other fights....then again Hitsu was able to go Bankai after using it so much and saying he didn't have much time left when he was fighting solo against Halibel.

silver_soul
January 07, 2011, 02:18 AM
The only reason is KUbo is yet to design the unrevealed bankai...thats the only reason... like Ukitake and Kyoraku, yama isshin urahara yoruichi etch ..these characters are hyped to be the strongest no doubt ..so their bankai Needs to be unmatchable in some respect or another ...kubo is One man ..he cant just spout out all ideas at once ..else he will be AIzen....thats the one and only reason

This might be it. I think Kubo wants to put more thought in to bankai's of characters that he likes so he's waiting for the right time whilst hinting in the manga that bankai's of such characters are too powerful or impractical to have been of use in the battles taken place so far.

He might've already designed them but still hasn't deemed any battle fit for some of the bankai's, I mean, he did mention he had another 10 yrs to write so it's highly likely we'll see foes more worthy than Aizen to face some of the unseen bankai's.

kalik2k
January 08, 2011, 03:41 AM
It just me who gets annoyed after seeing a load of "why didn't the captain's go bankai?" and "why didn't we see their bankai's?" sort of questions?

meepers4982
January 08, 2011, 12:49 PM
It just me who gets annoyed after seeing a load of "why didn't the captain's go bankai?" and "why didn't we see their bankai's?" sort of questions?

no, not just you. I think its a rather silly question. Kubo is waiting for the next arc to show the ban kais of the characters who havent released it yet. I mean come on for the most part all the captains who have released it arent as interesting anymore because we already know the full extent of their power and what they can do (hitsugaya?)(except byakuya becauses hes awesome) but for the most part its rather boring.

kkck
January 13, 2011, 09:06 PM
Well, would it really make sense for kubo to reveal a bunch of bankai when he has barely shown the shikai abilities? I mean, take shinji, shunsui and ukitake. Wouldn't it be perhaps too much to reveal their bankais and shikais in a single arc? There is still a bit to know about their shikais as it is, their abilities have to be more explored before bankai.....

Jackk
January 13, 2011, 10:57 PM
Well, would it really make sense for kubo to reveal a bunch of bankai when he has barely shown the shikai abilities? I mean, take shinji, shunsui and ukitake. Wouldn't it be perhaps too much to reveal their bankais and shikais in a single arc? There is still a bit to know about their shikais as it is, their abilities have to be more explored before bankai.....

What more do you think there is to know about Shinji's, Shunsui's, and Ukitake's shikais? ...If you mean that they haven't had as much action with their shikai, well sure...that's true;however, I really doubt their shikais have more abilities...

El Samurai Guapo
January 14, 2011, 01:28 AM
What more do you think there is to know about Shinji's, Shunsui's, and Ukitake's shikais? ...If you mean that they haven't had as much action with their shikai, well sure...that's true;however, I really doubt their shikais have more abilities...

I agree, in the cases of those three I don't think there shikais do anything else. If Kubo gave sakanade more abilities in shikai, that would be a little too overpowered lol. However, I think Rose definitely has a lot more to show with his shikai. Same with Hiyori, Lisa, and Mashiro/Hachi (if those two ever actually decide to use their zanpakutou). Love too; he may have more flame type attacks.

Jackk
January 14, 2011, 02:04 AM
I agree, in the cases of those three I don't think there shikais do anything else. If Kubo gave sakanade more abilities in shikai, that would be a little too overpowered lol. However, I think Rose definitely has a lot more to show with his shikai. Love too; he may have more flame type attacks.

Yeah, I agree with you on that too.

Rose specially... since his techniques are numbered sonatas. The one that he used in FKT was number 11 if I remember correctly. And good point about Love's fire attack, it is likely that he has more.


Same with Hiyori, Lisa

Yeah, I refuse to believe that Hiyori's and Lisa's shikais don't even have one single ability....


and Mashiro/Hachi (if those two ever actually decide to use their zanpakutou).

We got to put Yoruichi right next to Mashiro and Hachi on the list of fighters who have yet to use their zanpakutou... lol

By the way, I'm calling it now: Lisa will eventually show us that she also has Bankai!

El Samurai Guapo
January 14, 2011, 02:59 PM
We got to put Yoruichi right next to Mashiro and Hachi on the list of fighters who have yet to use their zanpakutou... lol

The thing is, Yoruichi hasn't even shown that she has a zanpakutou, whereas Hachi and Mashiro have. I always assumed she had one too, but the fact that she didn't even bring one to FKT kinda suggests she that she never did or she lost it somehow.

Jackk
January 15, 2011, 01:50 AM
The thing is, Yoruichi hasn't even shown that she has a zanpakutou, whereas Hachi and Mashiro have. I always assumed she had one too, but the fact that she didn't even bring one to FKT kinda suggests she that she never did or she lost it somehow.

You do bring up a good point here. We did see Mashiro's and Hachi's zanpakutou in the current time-line.

-We did see Mashiro using her Zanpakutou (along with most of the other vaizards) to restrain and suppress hollow Ichigo after he had attacked Hiyori.... http://read.mangashare.com/Bleach/chapter-216/page016.html

-We also saw that Mashiro even took her Zanpakuto to FKT http://read.mangashare.com/Bleach/chapter-364/page019.html Further, she even had her Zanpakutou after initially putting on her Mask, here: http://read.mangashare.com/Bleach/chapter-366/page003.html (Mashiro is the one who's standing to the left of Kensei), but it seems as though she threw it away after that lol... because she doesn't have her zanpakutou in the next pages anymore. Then, of course, we did see Hachi, in FKT, somehow summoning his zanpakutou within one of his barriers http://read.mangashare.com/Bleach/chapter-366/page004.html ...By the way, I bet Hachi wishes he had a Zanpakutou the size of Ichigo's shikai (http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-chapter-67-page-9.html); Hachi's zanpakutou seems a bit small for him lol...

Nevertheless, while we didn't actually see Yoruichi's zanpakutou in the current time-line... we did see both Kisuke and Yoruichi with their zanpakutou in a flashback, here: http://read.mangashare.com/Bleach/chapter-130/page010.html ....In addition, Yoruichi herself stated that one must be able to do both shikai and Bankai in order to become a Captain. In other words, every captain can do Bankai, except for Kenpachi. She stated that Kenpachi is the only one in the long history of soul society, who has become a captain without even knowing the name of his soul cutter. http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-chapter-120-page-11.html

That means that Yoruichi must have had a Bankai since she was a captain, which means that she definitely had a Zanpakutou. Now, you're absolutely right in that she hasn't been carrying her Zanpakutou in the current time-line, thus she either still has it and just hasn't used it for some reason, or something did happen which made her lose her zanpakutou somehow; I'm hoping that it's the former and not the latter...

El Samurai Guapo
January 15, 2011, 02:53 AM
You do bring up a good point here. We did see Mashiro's and Hachi's zanpakutou in the current time-line.

-We did see Mashiro using her Zanpakutou (along with most of the other vaizards) to restrain and suppress hollow Ichigo after he had attacked Hiyori.... http://read.mangashare.com/Bleach/chapter-216/page016.html

-We also saw that Mashiro even took her Zanpakuto to FKT http://read.mangashare.com/Bleach/chapter-364/page019.html Further, she even had her Zanpakutou after initially putting on her Mask, here: http://read.mangashare.com/Bleach/chapter-366/page003.html (Mashiro is the one who's standing to the left of Kensei), but it seems as though she threw it away after that lol... because she doesn't have her zanpakutou in the next pages anymore. Then, of course, we did see Hachi, in FKT, somehow summoning his zanpakutou within one of his barriers http://read.mangashare.com/Bleach/chapter-366/page004.html ...By the way, I bet Hachi wishes he had a Zanpakutou the size of Ichigo's shikai (http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-chapter-67-page-9.html); Hachi's zanpakutou seems a bit small for him lol...

Nevertheless, while we didn't actually see Yoruichi's zanpakutou in the current time-line... we did see both Kisuke and Yoruichi with their zanpakutou in a flashback, here: http://read.mangashare.com/Bleach/chapter-130/page010.html ....In addition, Yoruichi herself stated that one must be able to do both shikai and Bankai in order to become a Captain. In other words, every captain can do Bankai, except for Kenpachi. She stated that Kenpachi is the only one in the long history of soul society, who has become a captain without even knowing the name of his soul cutter. http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-chapter-120-page-11.html

That means that Yoruichi must have had a Bankai since she was a captain, which means that she definitely had a Zanpakutou. Now, you're absolutely right in that she hasn't been carrying her Zanpakutou in the current time-line, thus she either still has it and just hasn't used it for some reason, or something did happen which made her lose her zanpakutou somehow; I'm hoping that it's the former and not the latter...

I see, thanks for pointing that out, I never noticed her zanpakutou before in that scene. Also, you're right about the fact that she would have needed a bankai in order to become a captain. I certainly hope she didn't lose her zanpakutou either, it's just that when she showed up against Aizen with...whatever you call those things she had on her arms and legs—in lieu of a zanpakutou—it kind of suggests she did. I guess another possibility would be that her zanpakutou has an ability that doesn't suit her fighting style (kinda like Soi Fon and her bankai) therefore she prefers to fight without it.

Hachi's zanpakutou does seem kind of small for him lol. I wonder if the barrier actually shrinks it or something though. I think the reason we didn't see him use it in FKT is because he knew it would have been useless against Barragan. He observed Barragan's ability before he joined the fight against him.

Omiem
January 20, 2011, 08:19 PM
I found this link (http://read.mangashare.com/Bleach/chapter-158/page004.html) interesting regarding Yoruichi's Zanpakutou.

Jackk
January 20, 2011, 08:41 PM
I found this link (http://read.mangashare.com/Bleach/chapter-158/page004.html) interesting regarding Yoruichi's Zanpakutou.

^ Except that scan in particular has a mistranslation.

Soifon's zanpakutou has always been hers, and not Yoruichi's. http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-chapter-158-page-2.html

In addition, here's the correct translation of the scan that you linked: http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-chapter-158-page-4.html

Also, this was brought up a few years back: http://mangahelpers.com/forum/showthread.php?t=41764

Although, obviously it's not really your fault that Mangashare for some reason still has the bad translation of that old chapter....

Random101
January 21, 2011, 03:33 AM
Shunsui's shikai almost assuredly has more abilities he can pull from. Seriously, he hasn't even remotely covered all the children's games to be had there. Granted I heavily doubt all can/will be used, but even limiting it to Japanese games and limiting it further to Oni games (even if it's clearly NOT limited to just that) there's still a Hyou Oni game to pull from that I'm aware of. I believe someone posted a rather large list of games at one point that had several other oni games involved.

Granted though he most likely has a larger pool to pull from purely because his defined ability doesn't limit him even remotely. Shinji's and Ukitake's likely don't do much more than advertised. Save obviously Shinji clearly being able to just reverse one plane at will apparently.

BleachOD
January 22, 2011, 11:28 AM
okay this is something I never understood, why so many cry "use your bankai" or get mad if a Shikai pwned a guy.

Some Shikai's are as strong as Bankai. I could name several Bankai I think Rukia's Shikai would own...like Ikkaku's

I think it depends on the situation...depending on the enemy, it may be useless to use i.e Soifon's. It didn't do anything to Barragan. At the most he may have gotten headache but it wasn't enough to take him out

Bankai is a trump card that I believe shouldn't be revealed unless you're sure it's gonna work. Imagine Shunsui's bankai. Suppose it would have made everyone play a stupid game. He could have killed his own allies if that were the case

If they didn't use it, I am assuming it's for a good reason...other than "look at the powah of my bankai"....

just my opinion

R3D
January 22, 2011, 12:07 PM
obvious reason - suspense
not so obvious reason - let others take the glory

poobert
January 22, 2011, 12:12 PM
Bankai is a trump card that I believe shouldn't be revealed unless you're sure it's gonna work. Imagine Shunsui's bankai. Suppose it would have made everyone play a stupid game. He could have killed his own allies if that were the case

If they didn't use it, I am assuming it's for a good reason...other than "look at the powah of my bankai"....

just my opinion

Yama was going to kill them all anyway. They all should have used bankai from the start.

There is a simple reason they didn't. Kubo wants something to show off in future arcs.

I don't have a problem with that. In fact I think it is a good idea because using characters whose powers have been fully explored is rubbish. They would all become the bleach equivalent of Krillin.

BleachOD
January 22, 2011, 12:21 PM
Yama was going to kill them all anyway. T
Kill all of who? No he wasn't, he only went Kamakaze on Aizen because he had no choice. None of them ever stood a chance of beating Aizen without Ichigo

as for the rest I agree, but I think that KT has good excuses ..as to "why" they didn't use bankai. So many cry "use bankai" because they want to see it

If it's not gonna be beneficial, than I don't want to see it. I would prefer to see when it is useful or needed to demonstrate how powerful the guy who pwned it is. Either way is acceptable to me

poobert
January 23, 2011, 06:44 AM
Kill all of who? No he wasn't, he only went Kamakaze on Aizen because he had no choice. None of them ever stood a chance of beating Aizen without Ichigo

Are you talking about his kido attack? I am talking about his fire technique.

The whole point of the captain's attack was to buy time for Yama to set up his fire technique, which was what SS was trying to do in this "war":

http://www.mangareader.net/94-47594-14/bleach/chapter-393.html

Everything was primed for this one moment of mass suicide attack.

Had the other captains gone bankai, it would have bought Yama time, and who knows, they may have been alive to get out of the way of his attack.

I maintain it was foolish not to go all out from the start.

BleachOD
January 23, 2011, 09:58 AM
Are you talking about his kido attack? I am talking about his fire technique.

The whole point of the captain's attack was to buy time for Yama to set up his fire technique, which was what SS was trying to do in this "war":

http://www.mangareader.net/94-47594-14/bleach/chapter-393.html

Everything was primed for this one moment of mass suicide attack.

Had the other captains gone bankai, it would have bought Yama time, and who knows, they may have been alive to get out of the way of his attack. I don't think that is what he meant. It meant that they are all prepared to die if need be, but they didn't discuss the mass suicide attack

And that just says ...Damn Aizen was a bad mofo! The Aizen Fan in me is pretty smug that it took a whole crowd--A WHOLE CROWD of people to take him on and even that failed. For all the people who doubted Aizen--he made them believers (he made me one. I used to hate him and doubt his powers, but constant pwnage made me believe whether I wanted to or not)


I maintain it was foolish not to go all out from the start.

What if that fails? You not only revealed your trump card, you also lost the element of surprises. Something that can make you a winner in fight you would have lost without it

Shunsui didn't need his bankai, although he was about to use it. Ukitake made it seem as if it would have done more harm than good

So I say, they shouldn't go Bankai unless they absolutely have no choice.

freshseth83
January 27, 2011, 07:19 AM
All I know is that Kubo said he omitted Shunsui's bankai because he wanted readers to ask if he was as strong or stronger than Aizen if he had used it. Something along those lines. It was in an interview sometime last year. You can look it up.

~Joshua~
February 05, 2011, 09:25 PM
PIS. Either that or CIS.

Lunatic Scream
February 06, 2011, 06:35 PM
It's pretty obvious that with the exception of Hitsugaya, Captains that have revealed their Bankai pretty much lose their edge in fights with the "newest most powerful" opponents.

Kubo's no idiot, either. He knows that one of the important ways to keep people reading a story is to have unanswered questions of some kind. For some manga it's important plot points yet to be uncovered, for Bleach, the bankai of the most powerful characters serves this purpose as well.

luffyg2
February 12, 2011, 03:56 AM
The sole reason they didnt go bankai is because kubo needed a card up his sleeve for their other fight in the future to add a little mystery and to be able to give them a power up when they need it... other than that their is no logical reason cause if aizen succed that he will probably kill you (and I wonder why he didnt kill any captain but killed his own men) and if you are loosing witout your bankai then at least try to win by using your bankai otherwise you are going to loose anyway..

BleachOD
February 14, 2011, 03:31 AM
The sole reason they didnt go bankai is because kubo needed a card up his sleeve for their other fight in the future to add a little mystery and to be able to give them a power up when they need it... other than that their is no logical reason cause if aizen succed that he will probably kill you (and I wonder why he didnt kill any captain but killed his own men) and if you are loosing witout your bankai then at least try to win by using your bankai otherwise you are going to loose anyway..
"Shinigami fight with Reiatsu" is all the reason he needs. People don't understand. Against Aizen even Bankai's would have failed even if they were used. He has twice the reiatsu they did--it would have failed. Bankai Shikai...it doesn't matter. Who's the strongest does

(Please don't say Yamji was stronger. Aizen was just fucking around when he said that. He just wanted the fun of watching Yama fight a guy who knew his every move and making him pwn himself because he's sadist and suffers from grandiose behavior and loves to mindfuck people)

But I agree with you....he has to save it for the future fights...

Eprst
February 25, 2011, 09:32 AM
I think a little bit but they go berserk in bankai. Plus as we know shinigami and his zanpaktou are connected and zanpakuto is kinda alive, so if they would go bankai every battle looks like both zanpaktous and shinigamis will be exausted, shinigami from reiatsu loss and zanpaktou from transformations

Calisto
February 27, 2011, 12:33 AM
Some abilities aren't meant to be used when allies are around, because you can hurt them.

That's why.