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relory
September 10, 2010, 11:07 AM
I've been thinking about this for a while now, and since I haven't seen anyone else discussing it(although I've heard Earl being associated with Satan a lot), I finally dared to post this theory.. Right now I haven't organized all the facts my brain is a mess but I'll try to express my opinion. I really want to hear your things :s)

So(gaah where should I start X_x)..
Well, we all know that if anyone in D.Gray-man were to be associated with the Devil, we would all definitely point at the Earl first. He has the horns, fools humans to make 'a deal' to get their loved ones back and then turns them into AKUMA/demons, rebels against the 'false' God(his opinion at least :P) loves tragedy, wants to destroy humanity and, well.. can we all just agree that he just looks like Satan? His devilish grin should speak enough for itself x'D

Then why would Hoshino at the same time decide that his name is Adam, he's the one who'll bring forth the Sin Flood(decided by God), he has 12 disiples(14th doesn't count I say :p and I know he's a disiple himself, but the others are following him) like Jesus.. and he (at least his human side) has a rather sympathic.. air around him... By the way... Hoshino seems to like naming the Noah after "good" characters from the Bible. We have David and Jasdero, who likely are named after David and Jonathan (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_and_Jonathan). And I don't think the exorcists are the only ones associated with Archangels(assuming you've read that thread here:s), the meaning of (Archangel Haniel's (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haniel) name is 'joy/pleasure of God', and another way to write Archangel Sariel's name is Cyril :p

So! Onto the 14th then? xD Maybe we should take a look at the similar stories surrounding the 14th and the Devil? (I sound kinda theatrical in my head now lol):

From what we know about the 14th so far, it seems like he was a particulary strong and hot Noah member whom the Earl trusted (and cared for) very much. Then something happened(something veeery tragic, according to Adam ;w;) and the 14th went against the Earl & the other Noah and became a traitor. The Earl killed(or almost killed) him, but he survived and promised to return. Recently (or rather, 10 chapters ago xD), we found out that 14th wants to kill the Earl and take his place as the Millenium Earl. And for some reason (even though he's also furious), the Earl still wants to stay by his side.

Satan's story is a little bit different from text to text, but appearantly he was an angel, a fallen archangel who was banished(or killed in some myths) from heaven after his rebellion (he was egoistic and wanted tobecome God himself). When Satan was one of the angels he was described as intelligent, beautiful and perfect in every possible way, and was among the highest of the angels. His pride is considered a reason why he would not bow to God as all other angels did, but sought to rule heaven himself. In Islam they are taught that the reason why Satan was banished was because he disobeyed an order from Allah to bow to Adam. Some sources say that the archangel Satan was beloved by God, but then his heart was filled with sin and evil and he was banished from Eden. Appearantly God is ready to forgive Satan's sins when he returns ones again, if he lets go of his inner evil.

Then we have one of the most obvious resemblance between 14th and Satan(IMO, at least). Isn't it a funny coincidence that both the 14th and Satan can be referred to as 'the Musician' (http://www.learnthebible.org/satan-the-musician.html)? :p

Long and messy post is long and messy X_x Sorry about that. And hopefully my bad English is readable x'D but, what do you guys think? Could there be anything that could be valuable in this theory? At least we could have something to discuss while we're waiting for the next ^^ And we can agree that Hoshino has read deeply into this stuff and is a master of mindfucking, right..? :D

13Tsubasa
September 10, 2010, 04:47 PM
^ that could be a possibility since you have valid points and theories from both the Bible and Koran. Satan was also a Musician.
The only thing about 14th is that he seems more sane than the Earl and he has planned everything from the beginning.

ying_su
September 10, 2010, 06:08 PM
I had the same idea when i first read this chapter.
But i just had another idea:
Reading the few sentences Neah says in chp198:
- The earl became a mad puppet.
- Allen too. (Because of the madness of this war?)
- I'm (Neah) the 14th Noah.
- I will destroy everything.

What if by "everything" he means: the madness, the war, the puppets?


The 14th real intentions are hidden yet. He can be everything!
(And it's cool :D)

clamche
September 11, 2010, 12:30 AM
I didn't know that Satan was called the Musician. Hoshino must have read the Bible very closely.
But the plot of somebody being betrayed by one of their own is so widely spread in books, movies, anime and so on. It is not connected with the Bible. The bad or the good guy separates from the others and opposes them, becoming their strongest enemy. It is very common plot.
Besides we still don't know the reason why the 14th betrayed the Earl. He may have done it not because of a selfish reason such as pride or greed for power. Maybe he didn't agree with the Earl's plans for killing all humans. He seems to have loved his brother Mana a lot. Maybe there's something good in him.
Besides he is the 3rd side of the war. The first is God\Innocence\exorsists, the second is akuma\Noah\the Earl. Maybe he wants something different that didn't please both sides and now he is both sides' enemy.

relory
September 11, 2010, 03:05 AM
Yeah, I know the story is very common, but seeing as Hoshino likes to use biblical myths and lores in DGM (and twist them around like hell xD), why wouldn't she use one of the best known betrayal-of-one-of-his-own stories of all time? :p

It's really hard to imagine the 14th as the Bible's Satan, at least, especially if you're a Christian xD We are taught about Christianity in schools that Satan is the worst and most evil thing in the world, since he opposed God/Jesus/Adam/humanity (really, from all the different views, it's kinda hard to grab exactly what he's after too xD), which is supposed to be the Good side. But in the Bible Satan is described as originally being good, but because he had a free will, he began to feel sinful/bad feelings.

In (for instance) Jewish lore, where Satan is equatable with the fallen archangel Samael (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Samael)', he not seen as only evil. Samael is even closer to the chapter 198-Nea than Satan(if they're not the same person with another name lol):
"He's described as an accuser, seducer and destroyer, and has been regarded as both good and evil. He was an angel of death and the chief ruler of Fifth Heaven. Samael is said to have taken Lilith(Rhode? :'D) as his bride after she left Adam. Like Satan, he is often portrayed as a serpent or a dragon, and an antagonist of God. In gnosticism, Samael means 'the blind god'" Samael is highly regarded in anthrosophy and occultism.

It's tiring to research this kind of stuff, because there is so much information, so many different opinions and so many similar stories(in different cultures too), but the names are different.. you could sit and read for days! D: But if I where to act like all of the "betraying your father"-stories are the same(and that Hoshino thinks so too), then the story of 14th betraying Earl could be the same as Satan betraying God, Horus (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Horus#Conqueror_of_Set) going against his uncle Set(Set coughed out Horus' left eye before he was defeated), Saturn/Kronos (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cronus) betraying his father Uranos and then being killed himself by his son Zeus... but let me also say that Kronos is more similar to Earl again, as the word Kronos could mean "the Horned one" and Kronos is often confused with Chronos (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chronos), who in Greek mythology is the personification of time.. and now my brain kinda broke down lol I miiiight be thinking a little to much into this :s
but I wonder if there is some kind of.. vicious circle in D.Gray-Man..? X_x

Seeing the story from a non-Christian(I'm assuming Hoshino is either an atheist or a buddhist or something? o.O) she might think of it as simply a story about a kid tired of listening to his father's demands, then talks back at him and puts 'shame' on his family, and is grounded for all eternity xD

This could explain why Allen is pictured with both angelic and devilish wings, as he is in the middle of two extreme opposites, not only between Innocence and Noah, but also between Satan and archangel Michael(the one who defeated Satan in the war of Heaven, remember that symbolic chapter cover?). Allen will have to be the mediator then? He fits that role though :amuse

YATTA! Another long post! 8D I'm so proud of myself :D xD I blame the ADD :p

clamche
September 11, 2010, 07:00 AM
I agree that somehow the 14th is like the Satan ( but not the Satan himself ).

But there were originally 13 Noah - 12 + the Earl.

The 14 wasn't with them from the beginning. He is an exception.
Maybe he has special and different powers ( he was able to kill all other Noahs so it seems he is a lot stronger than an ordinary Noah ) that resemble the Earl's and that is what gave him the reason to think he can become the Earl. And to be the Earl means to create Akuma. Can the Satan be creator too?

ketorin
September 12, 2010, 03:12 AM
I think that is very plausible actually. When I first saw the post title I was like 'WTF' but you have some very valid points.
I think that of course he isn't actually Satan but Hoshino used her references and made him like Satan, a representation of Satan, that is if she did base him off of Satan.

relory
September 12, 2010, 08:44 AM
I agree with you on that one :P I think if Hoshino did model the 14th after the figure of Satan, she's focused more on the legend of the 'both good and evil' fallen angel Satan than the eeevul devil-Satan x') Since no one in DGM is truly evil anyway ^^

Naomidee
September 15, 2010, 10:20 PM
I love this theory, and agree with it very much. Hoshino tends to favor the Byronic Hero, so it would make very much sense if Allen/Neah did turn out to be the Satan figure. Satan does have both good and bad in him, as does Allen and seemingly The Fourteenth.

From what I've learned in past years from Christianity, Satan's motives for being the Devil are that... Well, frankly, misery loves company. Satan resents God and those that followed him, so he tries to tempt them into darkness. Granted, The Fourteenth definitely resents the Earl, if we're assuming that The Earl is now based off of Jesus. The 12 disciples bit also fits very well once you mention it.

It's very difficult to assign Hoshino's characters to concrete roles, however. I mean, almost every single one of her major characters has a very good/noble side as well as a hellish side. Allen, The Earl, Road, Tyki, Kanda, Lavi, Krory, and many others are all have both ends of the spectrum; which makes them very interesting characters. (The only exception to this mold might be Lenalee?)

Ultimately, I think your theory definitely has some substance to it.
I thought you did a nice job of organizing your thoughts. XD
And your English isn't bad at all! o_o In fact, you write better than many Americans I know. XDDDD;

candy
October 06, 2010, 09:54 PM
this has nothing to do with the 3rd novel, but in the bible there there were 13 apostles (i think) and the 13th apostle was the devil. so if we bring it into DGM the 12 noahs are the 12 apostles and the earl is the 13th apostle, the devil. it makes sense because the earl seems to be the mastermind behind all of the noahs' actions. so maybe the noahs were originally 'good' but then the earl became 'evil' and corrupted the other noahs making them 'evil'. just like the devil....just a thought though!

Zatono
October 06, 2010, 10:37 PM
This is a great theory, but we'll need some more background information from D.Gray Man itself before anything gets confirmed. At the rate it's going though, I'm not sure if it'll happen soon <.<

hopeandlight
October 07, 2010, 07:37 AM
after reading the comments...

"Like Satan, he is often portrayed as a serpent or a dragon"
nice! relory
I remember this chapter cover allen had a dragon/ serpent looking thing on his shoulder

and


14 apostles
hmmm
according to wiki
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apostle_%28Christian%29#Jesus

the are 12 apostles of Jesus

Jesus is an apostle according the Letter to the Hebrew

and Matthias replaced Judas

okay there's 14

yes i did it for the numbers

...

relory
October 07, 2010, 01:03 PM
Thanks for the replies :tem

Ah, I totally forgot about the Judas thing! x'D that one is actually pretty obvious *w*
Since chapter 189(and volume 20) is called "Call of Judas", Judas being the 14th that appears, it's another thing to add to the "Earl being portrayed as Jesus"-theory x') Just like Judas betrayed Jesus, Nea betrayed the Earl (according to the Earl at least o.O).. but we still don't know why Nea betrayed the Earl (if you don't take his words for it, that he wants to become god the Millenium Earl himself)... I don't think he did it simply for money, like Judas :p well, Satan himself is quite a.. shadowy character, it's still not certain just what/who he was and what he's after..

I remember that cover too! 8D Though most people seem to agree that the dragon represents Hevlaska (it is kinda similar I guess), so I kinda hesitated upon posting it x') I'm not so sure, to me it's another foreshadowing.. but we could read too much into it :p but here it is anyway :D :
http://img1.mangareader.net/manga/d-gray-man//7-1.jpg

By the way, I found two interesting articles on wikipedia: God as the Devil (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/God_as_the_Devil) & False God (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/False_god) Didn't Rhode talk about how the Noah were disiples of a "true God" while the excorsists followed a false one? I feel like we're so close to something here yet so far :s

Prrft, D.Gray-man is so deeeeeep and confusing and brain damaging and I love it! :zomg

MSofAofCOCA
October 07, 2010, 10:00 PM
Personally i think the dragon is Hevlaska, but the only thing that can signify that it is actually the 14th (at least from my point of view) is the fact that Tim is on the dragons nose....And as we know, Tim on sits on ppl he likes....

.....and the dragon is also wearing one of allen's ties xD

clamche
October 08, 2010, 02:34 AM
The apostles chose Mathias to be replacement for Judas, but God himself chose Savel to be apostle. So there are 15 apostles. It was people's decision to make Mathias replacement of Judas, not Jesus's.

Dlanor_A.Knox
October 20, 2010, 04:18 PM
Ok this might be something very... weird but I just saw the movie "The Omen" (the old version not the one from 2006 xD)
Originally, it reminded me as if the Earl is like Christ and that Neah is like the Anti-christ (or the other way arround) The anti-christ/Neah kills of every follower of The Christ/Earl but Karen/Road(?) stabs him and he dies infront of the Earl.

He returns (The Omen 4) inside Delia/Allen....

.............

Actually, now I've wrote this.... Your idea about 14th=Satan sounds much better xD

MSofAofCOCA
October 20, 2010, 09:36 PM
DGM is such a Gray (no pun intended!) series, that i doubt that even at the very end there will still be no official evil/good side/person. That's kinda the way the world works.
Here, the 14th may or maynot be based on Satan, but i doubt Hoshino will uh......reinact Bible through DGM.....=/
So far, it looks like 14th~Satan to me, but its possible that after we find out WHY he killed everyone, we might end up with 14th = Christ/Jesus/God/whoever

NAM61
October 21, 2010, 10:12 PM
good theory maybe didn't the 14th just appear out of no where and there where only suppose to be 13 noahs? also i think allen is a fallen angel neah is trying to manipulate to destroy the world.

Dlanor_A.Knox
October 22, 2010, 06:03 AM
Maybe we will now a bit more about Neah if Allen is going to pay a visit to Neah's follower? (Leverier talked about him once)