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BlackSword
October 02, 2010, 03:51 AM
This is a ranking system according to the information we have seen thus far...
I maybe forgetting people so please remind me if I do. Secondly if you disagree with anyone's ranking please give me a detailed post why so. I'll change it or respond in kind with a reason of my own why I disagree...
I didn't put in people such as Van Augur or the rest of the BB crew (with the exception of Shiryuu) because we have yet to see them fight seriously...
Please also note that people within certain levels can vary in strength & people 1 level above or below can fight with subsequent ranks. For example someone from rank 6 can beat someone from rank 7.
This ranking is to show overall 'Power' & does not account for things like 'Luffy's In-human Will'...
People may move up or down & if necessary we can add .5 ranks & more to show the varying degrees of strength within each rank.
Please try not to flame me if you disagree and explain why you think I'm wrong (if you do.). I did not make this thread to cause arguments or the like and I will listen to any and all opinions fairly.
I also understand that their are things within One Piece that we can't as of yet predict or judge. I'm simply trying to give a rough estimate. I would like to work with you all so that we can have the most accurate rankings on characters. To help further or One Piece discussions & Theories!
Thank You. :D


Order 0.5-10. 0.5 being weakest 10 being strongest.
Deceased or No On Panel Fights = Name
Color Code:
Whitebeard Pirates = Green
Roger Pirates = Teal
Strawhat Pirates = Dark Orange
Shichibukai = Magenta
Supernovas = Gray
Revolutionaries = Sienna
Marines/World Government = Purple
Blackbeard Pirates = Dark Slate Blue
Redhair Pirates = Dark Red
No Current Affiliation = Black

Rankings:
Level 10: WhiteBeard, Gol D. Roger
Level 9.5: Garp & Sengoku
Level 9: Akainu, Kizaru, Aokiji & Shanks
Level 8.5: Marco, Rayleigh
Level 8: Jozu, Mihawk, Kuma(Not Pacifista), Doflamingo, Hancock, Beckman, BlackBeard
Level 7.5: Enel, Magellan, Ace
Level 7: Vice Admirals, Ivankov, Crocodile, Jimbei, Vista, Shiryuu & Sentoumaru
Level 6.5: Smoker, Pacafista, Oars, Inazuma
Level 6: Luffy (Pre-Time Skip), Rob Lucci, T. Law, A. Kidd, B. Hawkins, XDrake, Moria
Level 5: Zoro, Sanji, Killer, J. Bonney
Level 4.5 Bepo, S. Apoo
Level 4: Daz Bones, Brook, Franky, Robin, Urouge, Hina, Hannyabal, Ryuuma, Perona, Absalom
Level 3: Taishigi, Colby, Bon Kurea, Nami, Chopper, Usopp, B. Capone
Level 2: Bellamy & Arlong
Level 1: Duvall, Buggy, Galdino
Level 0.5: Don Kreig, Kuro

Current Version = v.04

Latest Updates:
New Rank: 4.5 & 0.5
Added:
Level 6.5:
Inazuma
Oars
Level 6:
Basil Hawkins
XDrake
Level 5:
Killer
Jewelery Bonney
Level 4.5:
Bepo
Scratchman Apoo
Level 4:
Urouge
Hina
Hannyabal
Ryuuma
Perona
Absalom
Level 3:
Bege Capone
Level 0.5:
Don Kreig
Kuro


Future Updates:
Post Time Skip Rankings (For all reappearing One Piece characters.)
Fake Strawhats
New Supernova's
Yonkou


_____________________________________________

St Michael
October 02, 2010, 04:47 AM
I would put Shanks in level 9. Imo , Whitebeard and Roger were in another league .. maybe Garp being near it (in his prime) , but that's all until Shanks proves me wrong.

U forgot the yonkou (the other 3) don't you ?

Jorge D. Dragon
October 02, 2010, 04:57 AM
In fact I can't agree with some positions:
1. Enel. He clearly is at the level of Admirals. He has one of the most destructive DF, he has trained his DF to a great extent. Also his mantra, which can be the greatest in the manga.
2. WB division commanders. There are plenty of them and there is also a big difference between them, so the can't be put at the same power level.
3. BlackBeard. He clearly is lower in powrlevel. In level 7. Without his DF he is nothing and even with it he can be killed by someone like Akainu or Mihawk who will try to kill him with the first strike.
4. Smoker. I don't think that he is that strong. he is really simply commander level marine who has DF. His only advantage against Luffy or Zorro is his logia DF. Now Luffy has Haki, so Smoker won't be a problem.
5. Sanji. He is clearly not at Zoro's level.
6. Buggy must be below Arlong and Bellamy. They both had higher bounties and had more power, strength and skill than Buggy.

Flolex
October 02, 2010, 05:24 AM
If we're talking about pre time-skip levels here, than I agree with the ranking of the strawhats.

but... you argumentet that you can't measure van Augur - shouldn't the same apply to Beckman. And Crocodile has "only" his logia power - while enel has mantra as well. Hancock has all Haki types which would make her stronger than, for example, crocodile.
And in regards to Blackbeards strength: he has 2 DF powers which should make him at least a level 8
what else? oh yes, the thing with the WB commanders is the same with the Vice admirals - some are stronger than others...

BlackSword
October 02, 2010, 05:41 AM
Updated!
However. I put Enel in level 7 simply because his lack of experience. The reason he lost to Luffy was caused primarily by this. Most of the people in Level 8 are there simply because of their experience. I admit that he is very powerful but his lack of real fighting experience (i.e only fought with people from Skypie) Makes him on the same level as Crocodile.
As for Blackbeard being weak. I don't think it is possible to kill BlackBeard in the first hit. He took Whitebeards Quake to the head (Anime Only) and still got back up. All things considered the guy has insane resilience and the fact that he was offered a position as a division commander of WB pirates before he even had his DF proves he isn't just for show. Not to mention the fact that he has the Quake Quake fruit which in itself makes him very dangerous adversary.
I Agree that Sanji is indeed slightly weaker than Zoro however I don't see him as so much weaker that he is in another level and seeing as how they have never fought (seriously) I will leave them on the same level. Because Sanji is most likely on par with most supernovas and is stronger than pretty much everyone in Level 4.

I judged Beckman simply on him making Kizaru halt. Upon Oda's on admitance Beckman has the highest I.Q of any One Piece character as well as COA Haki. He is also the first-mate of a Yonkou. CoA Haki & Highest I.Q making him very powerful indeed.

I also did not forget the other Yonkou I simply left them out because they could be anywhere from level 10 to level 8. We can't ascertain their power levels or abilities as of yet.

Jorge D. Dragon
October 02, 2010, 06:12 AM
However. I put Enel in level 7 simply because his lack of experience. The reason he lost to Luffy was caused primarily by this. Most of the people in Level 8 are there simply because of their experience. I admit that he is very powerful but his lack of real fighting experience (i.e only fought with people from Skypie) Makes him on the same level as Crocodile.
He lost to Luffy only because Luffy's DF is a natural enemy of Lightning DF. Enel's DF destructive power is on par with the admirals. In fact his DF power is one of the best in manga on par with Kizaru. He could also restart his heart with his DF power. And you can't compare him to Vista... he can exterminate people with lightnings of 1 million volts. There is only Luffy and normal Logias who can survive his attacks. So it's not the question of experience.


As for Blackbeard being weak. I don't think it is possible to kill BlackBeard in the first hit. He took Whitebeards Quake to the head (Anime Only) and still got back up. All things considered the guy has insane resilience and the fact that he was offered a position as a division commander of WB pirates before he even had his DF proves he isn't just for show. Not to mention the fact that he has the Quake Quake fruit which in itself makes him very dangerous adversary.
He isn't durable. He is just fat, so of course it's difficult to inflict damage by punching him or quakeing him, because his body is good for defense from these types of attacks, but it's very easy to kill him by using Logia DF attacks. People like Admirals could desintegrate him or make him a ice statue. Also Enel using his most powerful attacks from the start could inflict critical damage.
And BB wasn't offered a position of WB division commander. Where did you see it?


I Agree that Sanji is indeed slightly weaker than Zoro however I don't see him as so much weaker that he is in another level and seeing as how they have never fought (seriously) I will leave them on the same level. Because Sanji is most likely on par with most supernovas and is stronger than pretty much everyone in Level 4. I don't think that he is slightly weaker than Zoro.:) That's why it would be better to form groups in the levels, for the sake of clearing situations like this.:)

BlackSword
October 02, 2010, 06:28 AM
Yes blackbeard was offered a position as commander
http://onepiece.wikia.com/wiki/Marshall_D._Teach

More than two years before the current storyline, Blackbeard and Shanks fought in a battle. During the battle, Blackbeard gave Shanks the three scars by his eyes. Blackbeard eventually became a member of the second division and encouraged Ace to seek the commander position, refusing it himself.

I believe it was during either 'Ace Flashback' (One about WB) Or during the conversation between Shanks and Whitebeard. Also Ace was also a Logia and a powerful one at that. & He still lost to blackbeard.

As for Enel. Vista and and the other WB Div. Commanders are capable of 'Haki'. Vista uses against Akainu during the war. Secondly Vista went toe to toe with Mihawk. Mihawk even commented that only a fool wouldn't know of Vista. Needless to say if Vista could go up against Akainu & Mihawk he could most certainly go against Enel who doesn't even know what haki is. (He thinks mantra is a special skill and is unaware that other people outside of his chosen few can use it. Aswell as it would seem that he is completely unaware of the existence of CoA Haki.)

Jorge D. Dragon
October 02, 2010, 06:48 AM
As for Enel. Vista and and the other WB Div. Commanders are capable of 'Haki'. Vista uses against Akainu during the war. Secondly Vista went toe to toe with Mihawk. Mihawk even commented that only a fool wouldn't know of Vista. Needless to say if Vista could go up against Akainu & Mihawk he could most certainly go against Enel who doesn't even know what haki is. (He thinks mantra is a special skill and is unaware that other people outside of his chosen few can use it. Aswell as it would seem that he is completely unaware of the existence of CoA Haki.)
Mihawck stated only his skills in swordsplay, but nothing more. His Haki wasn't enough to inflict real damage to Akainu, so it can't be count that much and also he wasn't alone.
Enel is deffinetly stronger than Vista. It can't be denied, because it was obviously shown in the manga. In destructive power he is on par with Kizaru and Akainu and maybe even stronger than Aokiji.

About BB... I just can't remember this being stated in manga, though it doesn't matter that much really. In my opininion he is nothing without his DF.:)

beastboy
October 02, 2010, 06:53 AM
I only disagree with the lower levels!
You're downplaying Franky by a mile!
He is on pair with Luffy (no Gears), and would kick Bon Kurei's ass in a second (Tashigi's power is a big (?) we only know she is weaker than Luffy, and that would probably be owned by Zoro if they fought again!)!
So I guess you should put Bentham and Tashigi together with Nami, Usopp and Chopper!
[hr]

Mihawck stated only his skills in swordsplay, but nothing more. His Haki wasn't enough to inflict real damage to Akainu, so it can't be count that much and also he wasn't alone.
Enel is deffinetly stronger than Vista. It can't be denied, because it was obviously shown in the manga. In destructive power he is on par with Kizaru and Akainu and maybe even stronger than Aokiji.

About BB... I just can't remember this being stated in manga, though it doesn't matter that much really. In my opininion he is nothing without his DF.:)

So destructive that couldn't kill an old man!

Jorge D. Dragon
October 02, 2010, 07:40 AM
So destructive that couldn't kill an old man!
You know, before WB and Ace in One Piece people didn't die no matter what. Even if they were stabbed, reaped and exploded. But you should look at SH crew and guerillas. They were deffinetly kicked by Enel, though they are rather durable and he only really used his power against Luffy. Remember the ship and how he crushed Sanji and Usopp with the least of his power.

triniman121
October 02, 2010, 09:35 AM
Hmm, it seems like an okay list but Crocodile should be lower on that list. Luffy did manage to beat him. Enel should be at a higher level just because his bounty would be no less than 500,000,000. Luffy was his only natural enemy as to why he got beat. I think if he were to fight be would at a Admiral's level or slightly a bit lower. With his mantra ability, it would be hard to even fight him. Ace should at least be level 8. Nami should be at least level 6 for her ability to beat luffy with the fist of love as garp said :)

St Michael
October 02, 2010, 10:21 AM
Hmm, it seems like an okay list but Crocodile should be lower on that list. Luffy did manage to beat him.

I disagree. Crocodile proves himself to be a top player during MF. He has to be on his current level..


Enel should be at a higher level just because his bounty would be no less than 500,000,000. Luffy was his only natural enemy as to why he got beat. I think if he were to fight be would at a Admiral's level or slightly a bit lower. With his mantra ability, it would be hard to even fight him.

Whow :blink , his virtual bounty doesn't mean anything. Bounties already mean nothing in the current story .. so in a hypothetical parallel one ..

Enel is strong , but he's stupid and would be pwned by any of the rank 8-9-10 fighters.


Ace should at least be level 8. Nami should be at least level 6 for her ability to beat luffy with the fist of love as garp said :)

Why ? Ace was weaker that Jozu and Marco and he didn't manage to defeat Jinbei. It's seems logical to put him in level 7.

BlackSword
October 02, 2010, 10:31 AM
Updated:
Ace moved to Level 8
Vista moved to Level 7
Taishigi & Bon Kurea moved to Level 3
Nami's ability to beat up Luffy is a gag not an actual ability.
Crocodile is powerful. Versus anyone who doesn't have so much experience fighting him he is almost admiral level in raw power. I.E. Crocodile did the best against Akainu besides Whitebeard.

kulugo
October 02, 2010, 11:25 AM
you should put garp, sengoku and probably rayleigh on 9.5.

i think enel should be at no 8. or 7.5 he has haki, logia, super fast.

SuperShuter
October 02, 2010, 11:49 AM
Thats about right, although I would put ace maybe at 8, as he went toe to toe with Aokoji, none of the other whitebeard captains could beat akainu or blackbeard, because of their abilities. Don't move enel above 7, god sakes luffy beat him and didn't have a horrible time laying hits on him and think how much luffy has improved since then. Apart from that god job
[hr]



Enel is strong , but he's stupid and would be pwned by any of the rank 8-9-10 fighters.

Why ? Ace was weaker that Jozu and Marco and he didn't manage to defeat Jinbei. It's seems logical to put him in level 7.

I agree about Enel, but cmon Jozu got Owned by Akoji and ace was on par with him. ace drew with jinbei when he was a rookie, and I admit Ace still lacks experience but he IS as strong as jozu. Marco and Jozu would have probably lost against black beard just because of his ability and I think ace was very close to winning.

BlackSword
October 02, 2010, 12:48 PM
Updated:
Ace moved to Level 8
Vista moved to Level 7
Taishigi & Bon Kurea moved to Level 3
Nami's ability to beat up Luffy is a gag not an actual ability.
Crocodile is powerful. Versus anyone who doesn't have so much experience fighting him he is almost admiral level in raw power. I.E. Crocodile did the best against Akainu besides Whitebeard.
Sorry for some reason when I updated Earlier my changes didn't save. Its up to date now. Enel is staying at level 7 simply because I have to agree with him being stupid... However I'm making .5s as we speak so I'll move him to 7.5 soon.
Also, as the series progresses into the 'New World' I will update the power levels. As of this moment we have yet to see enough of anyone's new powers after the time skip to judge them accurately. But after our first major battle I will update accordingly. Secondly I will be crossing out deceased fighters. (Won't remove simply cross them out.)
[hr]
Updated:
Garp, Sengoku & Rayleigh moved to Level 9.5
Enel & Ivankov moved to Level 7.5
Levels 9.5/7.5 & 6.5 Added
Color Code Added
Deceased Marker Added.
v0.2

Lord Rayleigh
October 02, 2010, 01:15 PM
You need to add Shiki and Smoker was definitely stronger than Luffy before the timeskip.

BlackSword
October 02, 2010, 01:45 PM
You need to add Shiki and Smoker was definitely stronger than Luffy before the timeskip.
Seeing as Shiki doesn't appear in the main storyline I didn't add him. Not to mention his level should have been at least level 9 yet he lost to Luffy. And Luffy was fighting on par with him in Gear Second.
What level do I put Shiki on? After getting defeated in Strong World I don't know were to put him.
Smoker ability to me seems to be more like Luffy vs Enel. Although Enel was stronger Luffy still won but could simply be my opinion. If more people think Smoker is stronger than Luffy. Please Post. I'll move Smoker to 6.5.

Poneglyph420
October 02, 2010, 01:59 PM
Seeing as Shiki doesn't appear in the main storyline I didn't add him. Not to mention his level should have been at least level 9 yet he lost to Luffy. And Luffy was fighting on par with him in Gear Second.
What level do I put Shiki on? After getting defeated in Strong World I don't know were to put him.
Smoker ability to me seems to be more like Luffy vs Enel. Although Enel was stronger Luffy still won but could simply be my opinion. If more people think Smoker is stronger than Luffy. Please Post. I'll move Smoker to 6.5.

I think "Power Levels" are such a hard thing to judge, in OP IMO at least..
But I agree that Smoker in both of his encounters with Luffy was superior in ability and fighting prowess.. So I'd say Smoker was a higher "level" than Luffy up til now at least...

But you never know how two ability users will match up with each other..
So I give credit to those of you who can see "rankings" in a manga where I see none...

BlackSword
October 02, 2010, 02:15 PM
There are things that just can not be judged. Such as the 'human' factor. One Piece is a story and as such only its author has final say on 'Strength' however from what we have seen we can make educated guesses(hypothesis). Secondly I think that this 'Ranking' system will help us determine growth. Luffy and the SH have grown and most likely so have other major characters! This will help us keep track of their general power. This isn't a 'match up thread' were we say if X guy fights Y guy X will win. This is simply an overall ranking.
As characters in OP improve or show more of their abilities I will try to update this thread after every week (depending on events in the chapters released.) and keep this thread as up to date as possible.

Naruffy
October 02, 2010, 03:35 PM
This ranking is nothing more than group opinions, it's just a matter of what the majority think someone's level of strength is and putting them there. Shiki, IMO, was Level 9 but after cutting legs of and what not, dropped to level 6 to 7.

beastboy
October 02, 2010, 03:41 PM
You could add 0.5 for Krieg, and had Kuro to lvl 1!

DEATHBOTT
October 02, 2010, 07:03 PM
magellan should be up a level.

kulugo
October 02, 2010, 08:38 PM
hmm.. i do think Jozu should be a little lower than Marco and Ace. he's only physically stronger than them.

and i think nami, chopper, usopp is not stronger than bellamy, arlong and buggy.

St Michael
October 03, 2010, 04:28 AM
Jozu is super strong , super fast and super resilient (diamond , no scratch after Mihawk slash etc).

Among the admirals , only Ao Kiji had the power to OS him ..

Plus he mastered (slightly at least) armored haki (or whatever is this color's name).

What are Ace's achievements ? I don't understand why he HAS to be better than Jozu. Because he led the 2nd division and Jozu the third ?

beastboy
October 03, 2010, 04:51 AM
Magellan should be in 7.5, he did beat Ivan, and so should Vista, I mean, do you really see them at the same level as a PX?

St Michael
October 03, 2010, 05:00 AM
Or you just move PX to 6.5.

Fox666
October 03, 2010, 06:00 AM
Personally I don't agree with a lot of things here.

First of all I wouldn't rank Shanks nor any of his crew because he have not seen enough. And perhaps I also wouldn't rank Enel, we don't have a good reference of how would he handle someone else than the Strawhats.

About the baroque works, I would put Galdino in level 2 or 3. I also would move Bon Kurei to the same line as Daz Bones, they briefly fought and in my opinion the difference in strength is very small. Also I would move Nico Robin over Franky and Brook, and by consequence also over Daz Bones.

Smoker has advantage of Luffy because of the Devil Fruit. But yet I won't rank him over Luffy.

Also, I think the Vice-Admirals are being overrated. I can't rank them over Moria or Lucci. I can't imagine these two losing to them, in fact I see Moria of Lucci easily defeating a vice-admiral.

Jinbei and Crocodile are being underrated. Jinbei fought most of time in land, and against Akainu, so we did not see what he can really do. And Crocodile is always underestimated because he lost to Luffy?

A list from me would probably looks like this:
Of course this is all before the timeskip

Level 1: Buggy, Duval
Level 1.5: Kuro, Krieg
Level 2: Arlong, Bellamy, Galdino
Level 3: Nami, Usopp, Chopper, Taishigi, Colby
Level 4: Franky, Brook, Daz Bones, Bon Kurea
Level 4.5: Robin
Level 5: Luffy, Zoro, Sanji, Supernova's
Level 5.5 Average Whitebeard commander
Level 6: Vice-Admirals
Level 7: Luffy (Gear 2), Rob Lucci, Law, Kidd, Moria, Smoker, Sentoumaru, Pacifista
Level 7.5 Ivankov, Jozu, Vista
Level 8: Shichibukai*, Ace, Magellan, Shiryu
Level 8.5: Silvers Rayleigh, Marco
Level 9: Admirals*
Level 9.5: Sengoku, Garp
Level 10: Gol D. Roger, Whitebeard

*Note: I don't want to rank individual Shichibukais or Admirals. If I do so, I probably would move Doflamingo to a level above and etc. But I don't think we can get to any right answer on these. In other words, consider these as having a "margin fo error" of 0.5 or 1.

beastboy
October 03, 2010, 09:03 AM
Only thing I'd find imperative to change...
PX. on 6.5 and Smoker on 6!
I'd Rank Smoker the same as Luffy, he only wins because of the fruit!

St Michael
October 03, 2010, 09:45 AM
The fruit is part of him.

kulugo
October 03, 2010, 10:05 AM
@Fox,
i think smoker should be lower than VAs

Fox666
October 03, 2010, 11:00 AM
The fruit is part of him.He meant that Smoker has advantage over Luffy. Much like Luffy vs Enel.

@Fox,
i think smoker should be lower than VAsI believe Smoker is stronger than the majority of vice-admirals. Of course the vice-admirals are not equal, i.e. probably John Giant is special among them.

Smoker has always been in a low position compared to his actual power. And this is no surprise, since he is the kind of guy that tell his superiors to eat shit if he disagree with the order.

BlackSword
October 03, 2010, 11:09 AM
Smoker: Smoker winning simply because of his logia ability is the same thing for Crocodile or pretty much any Logia user... Their power defines them... Luffy wouldn't really be much post pre-time skip if he wasn't rubber.

Vice-Admirals: All Vice-Admirals posses Haki as well as Rokushiki. Moria's power without the aid of minions or massive preparation is very weak. Lucci although possessing Rokushiki he showed no signs of haki & I find it very unlike that he would prevail against a skilled haki users and a veteran fighter such as a Vice-Admiral.

Shanks: Shanks stopped Akainu's attack were the entire WB & Allies forces failed... He went toe to toe with whitebeard even if neither was series. This makes him at least admiral level and I see no reason why he would be considered weaker than that by anyone. There is the possibility that he is stronger and as we see more of his powers I will edit his rank accordingly. Same goes for Benn Beckman... As I've stated earlier by his own admission Oda says that Benn Beckman has the highest I.Q of any one piece character along with his position as a Yonkou first-mate and a apparently gifted haki users his position can also only go up from where he is currently ranked.

Daz Bones: if you can not cut steel & Do not posses haki Daz Bones in practically untouchable... Turning every part of his body into Blades/Steel and we saw from his fight with Zoro that he has trained his DF ability rigorously being able to reacted to even Zoro's fastest attacks.

Bon Kurea: Bon Kurea although a cool character is a mediocre fighter at best... And without haki he can not touch most other DF users, such as Daz Bones...

Jimbei & Crocodile Crocodile is bad ass however I don't think he is quite above the level I have him at atm... His lack of haki takes away from his overall ability. Jimbei has only displayed certain abilities and seeing as this list is trying to stay away from building people up on assumptions alone until he shows us more fighting abilities his current rank is sufficient and in no way meant to slander his capabilities I am simply observing the level of a imprisoned, injured, tired and over extended Jimbei.

Pacifista: I believe you are correct about the pacifista moving to level 6.5 It seems a fitting place for them I was having trouble deciding where they should go seeing as it took the entire SH crew to take down 1 after which they were spent...

Jozu: Is practically in destructable and the only reason why people think he is weaker than Ace is because he lead a higher number division... As from what we saw in the marine ford war the only person that could slow him down was Aokiji and only when he was distracted by the possibility of an Injury to his crew.

Brook, Robin & Franky Are all in the same boat pre-time skip. Their abilities destroy fodder & middle ranking fighters but against top tier fighters. I.E Ryuuma, Moria, Pacifista they really do no significant damage. They are not as weak as the 'weak trio' (Nami, Usopp & Chopper) by far and they don't suffer from those three's fear of everything abnormal (even though they are surrounded by abnormally strong people...) Moving any of them up or down will cause to much decent. Some people think A is stronger while others thing B or even C. Same goes for Sanji & Zoro their opponents are all roughly around the same level so no reason to put any above the others...

kulugo
October 03, 2010, 11:24 AM
@Fox
smoker was outclassed by boa easily. he looked like fodder against her. he doesnt have haki which the VAs have. i think youre overrating him.

Fox666
October 03, 2010, 12:02 PM
Smoker: Smoker winning simply because of his logia ability is the same thing for Crocodile or pretty much any Logia user... Their power defines them... Luffy wouldn't really be much post time skip if he wasn't rubber.
I think that when it comes to Luffy vs Smoker it's a special case. Luffy always had trouble with him and his seastone juttle. However, I think that against other opponents Smoker wouldn't have results much better than Luffy.

Vice-Admirals: All Vice-Admirals posses Haki as well as Rokushiki. Moria's power without the aid of minions or massive preparation is very weak. Lucci although possessing Rokushiki he showed no signs of haki & I find it very unlike that he would prevail against a skilled haki users and a veteran fighter such as a Vice-Admiral.I don't think that Haki automatically turn someone as stronger than Luffy. It's not that rare afterall. All Kuja have it. The Priests have it. Probably all Whitebeard commanders have it.

Also, I must say, it's not because we never saw Crocodile or Moria using it against Luffy that they can't use it. Both are New World veterans who fought against Yonkou back them. Why wouldn't they know Haki?

In fact I bet all Shichibukai can use Haki.

About Moria... he is lazy but he is still strong. He is weaker than the other Shichibukais, but still has his Kage Kage no Mi ability. He can use Shadow Asgard, and also impaled Oars Third (how many marine ships shoot him without any apparent injure?).

Either way, I can't see Moria being defeated by guys which Doflamingo played in the Shichibukai meeting in Marijoya...

Shanks: Shanks stopped Akainu's attack were the entire WB & Allies forces failed... He went toe to toe with whitebeard even if neither was series. This makes him at least admiral level and I see no reason why he would be considered weaker than that by anyone. There is the possibility that he is stronger and as we see more of his powers I will edit his rank accordingly. Same goes for Benn Beckman... As I've stated earlier by his own admission Oda says that Benn Beckman has the highest I.Q of any one piece character along with his position as a Yonkou first-mate and a apparently gifted haki users his position can also only go up from where he is currently ranked.I bet Beckman is not far from Rayleigh or Marco. But that is purely based on his position as first mate of Shanks. We have not seen he fighting yet.

And Shanks stopped Akainu attack. But a lot of people with Haki did the same. There is nothing that really count to measure his power, yet. Who knows if he guy has eaten a Devil Fruit in the last 10 years or what.

So they may be very strong, but we cannot measure it.

Daz Bones: if you can not cut steel & Do not posses haki Daz Bones in practically untouchable... Turning every part of his body into Blades/Steel and we saw from his fight with Zoro that he has trained his DF ability rigorously being able to reacted to even Zoro's fastest attacks.
Bon Kurea: Bon Kurea although a cool character is a mediocre fighter at best... And without haki he can not touch most other DF users, such as Daz Bones...Well, I at least did not had the impression of Daz Bones being far from Bon Kurey.

Jimbei & Crocodile Crocodile is bad ass however I don't think he is quite above the level I have him at atm... His lack of haki takes away from his overall ability. Jimbei has only displayed certain abilities and seeing as this list is trying to stay away from building people up on assumptions alone until he shows us more fighting abilities his current rank is sufficient and in no way meant to slander his capabilities I am simply observing the level of a imprisoned, injured, tired and over extended Jimbei.Well, as I said before, I doubt Crocodile doesn't possess Haki. While there is no proof of it yet, I would avoid using "don't possess Haki" to rank character. =P

Pacifista: I believe you are correct about the pacifista moving to level 6.5 It seems a fitting place for them I was having trouble deciding where they should go seeing as it took the entire SH crew to take down 1 after which they were spent...According to Sanji, the Pacifista are not behind the real Kuma. At least, they cannot be much far. Other than that, we did not saw many Pacifista being destroyed in Marineford (excluding Hancock). I think I saw 1 being destroyed by a New World pirate, after the Pacifista army killing hundred or thousands of pirates? It's interesting how the author avoided showing a confront beetween important characters and the Pacifista.

Jozu: Is practically in destructable and the only reason why people think he is weaker than Ace is because he lead a higher number division... As from what we saw in the marine ford war the only person that could slow him down was Aokiji and only when he was distracted by the possibility of an Injury to his crew.Yeah, but we saw him attacking like... 2 times? I personally think Ace is a lot strong, and there is no shame in being behind him

While Jozu is fast while doing a rush attack, he doesn't looks the agile type. Ok, he compensates that by having a diamon armor, quite scary when you think about it.

But what happens if someone can bypass his diamon body? I believe that, along with being distracted, are the reasons why he failed against Aokiji.

Brook, Robin & Franky Are all in the same boat pre-time skip. Their abilities destroy fodder & middle ranking fighters but against top tier fighters. I.E Ryuuma, Moria, Pacifista they really do no significant damage. They are not as weak as the 'weak trio' (Nami, Usopp & Chopper) by far and they don't suffer from those three's fear of everything abnormal (even though they are surrounded by abnormally strong people...) Moving any of them up or down will cause to much decent. Some people think A is stronger while others thing B or even C. Same goes for Sanji & Zoro their opponents are all roughly around the same level so no reason to put any above the others...The problem with Robin is that after the Baroque Works saga, she did not enter in many battles. She fought against a priest, and was under custody almost all CP9 saga...

But now that you said Moria and Pacifista names... if we look at the fewer panels she did something in these battles it was devastating, i.e. almost breaking Moria's neck and closing the Pacifista mouth while it fires... that's scary!

@Fox
smoker was outclassed by boa easily. he looked like fodder against her. he doesnt have haki which the VAs have. i think youre overrating him.Well, if you asked me, if it was one of these guys instead of Smoker, Hancock probably would have break their neck :p
http://img245.imageshack.us/img245/6955/viceadmirals.png

zelllogan
October 03, 2010, 12:11 PM
My classment would be a little different.
Shanks is to me the strongest leaving character in the manga.
BB with his two devil fruits is now way stronger than before. Marco was said to be one of the very few characters in the manga able to fight BB.
Mihawk is the strongest swordman ... he is definitively a level 9.
How can Magellan be so low ... The guy was unstoppable ... Ivankov couldn't stop him at all & was defeated rather quickly.
Shiryuu is said to have Magellan's level.
Coby & Tashigi are level 1 or level 2 at most but those two over Arlong & Bellamy ?
About vice-admirals ... I'll put most of them in level 6 ... Just because the rank is high, it doesn't mean these guys are that strong ...

Level 10: WhiteBeard, Gol D. Roger
Level 9.5: Garp, Sengoku Rayleigh & Shanks
Level 9: Akainu, Kizaru, Aokiji, Marco, Mihawk, BlackBeard
Level 8: Jozu, Kuma, Doflamingo, Hancock, Beckman, Magellan, Shiryuu
Level 7.5: Enel, Ivankov, Ace
Level 7: Smoker, Crocodile, Jimbei, Vista
Level 6.5: Pacifista & Sentomaru
Level 6: Luffy (Pre-Time Skip), Rob Lucci, T. Law, A. Kidd, Moria
Level 5: Zoro, Sanji, Supernova's
Level 4: Daz Bones, Brook, Franky, Robin
Level 3: Bon Kurea, Nami, Chopper, Usopp,
Level 2: Bellamy & Arlong
Level 1: Duval, Buggy, Galdino, Coby , Tashigi

St Michael
October 03, 2010, 02:05 PM
Smoker is nowhere near Jinbei , Croc or even Vista.
Sentoumaru and him have to exchange their places in your list.

Shiryu is weaker than Magellan , but he can handle the same "cases" in the prison. Indeed , if he could fight him equally , Magellan would'nt have captured him..

Mihawk is too high too.. how can you put him at that rank without even a single serious fight.

Overall a good list , those points excluded.

lgstarn
October 03, 2010, 06:08 PM
Why is Buggy so low? I mean, I know he is comic relief and all... but weaker than Nami, Usopp and Chopper??? What about Buggy balls? ;-)

I think you should move Buggy up to level 4. I think he'd have a decent chance against all the people you currently have there.

Ashura_Ichibugin
October 03, 2010, 08:10 PM
Putting Ivankov over Magellan is a mistake. Magellan totally owned Ivankov and neither of them have a special advantage/disadvantage over the other. Maybe they can switch places.

Fox666
October 03, 2010, 09:28 PM
Shiryu is weaker than Magellan , but he can handle the same "cases" in the prison. Indeed , if he could fight him equally , Magellan would'nt have captured him..We don't know what happened. Magellan should have had reinforcements. Nor we know how much injuries Magellan had at the end.

So I would take more in consideration the statement that he is equal to Shiryu.

Jorge D. Dragon
October 04, 2010, 01:14 AM
In fact I can't understand all that talk about Smoker being already at VA level before timeskip and that after it even being able to become an Admiral. It was really shown by Rayleigh that Haki matters greatly in a fight between skillfull fighters. So do you think that by any chanse Smoky can be at VA level? He doesn't posess Haki and the only advantage of his DF is being Logia in a sense that you can't touch him. He doesn't have any powerful and devastating attacks. So he will be owned by VA using Haki combined with Rokushiki or sword attacks. Also Smoker is rather slow compared with the majority of really strong persons. He can't stand up to Soru level of speed and it is not that high speed compared to Kizaru, Enel or Kuma.

zelllogan
October 04, 2010, 03:01 AM
smoker was again superior to luffy in the war. He's an experienced soldier with a logia. Smoker is a bigger pain in the ass than most vice-admirals. There were 4 vice-admirals at Enies Lobby ... FOUR and they were useless.

It's not because someone has Haki that he is that powerful. The two boa sisters were overclassed by Luffy for example.

Schabrak
October 04, 2010, 05:57 AM
He doesn't posess Haki.
You shouldn't talk in present tense, since we still don't know how much the Mugiwaras have grown and absolutely nothing about the growth of the rest of the characters. Smoker will definitely have become stronger too, assuming that he was transfered to G5 and fought against many individuals possesing haki themself. Look at Coby, why shoudn't he be able to follow suit?

beastboy
October 04, 2010, 06:35 AM
OMFG.... I'm so fuckin' tired of people underestimating the V.A.'s!
They did nothing in Enies Lobby because it wasn't necessary... their goal was to destroy marine ford... to kill the SH there was a more than capable fighter( that was what they tought) and the SH's couldn't escape anywhere, if it wasn't for Sanji's more than brilliant plan, and for Merry, they would have been killed without the need of the VA's...
Even if it was Sakazuki or Borsalino in that ship, they wouldn't have reacted until it was needed...
When they needed to act, they didn't have an Hax DF that could stop a boat from escaping while saving the ships from the whirlpool!
And I guess only Aokiji would have, Kizaru would just destroy the Mugiwara, and wouldn't care for the ships, and the same for Akainu... but again they're not admirals they're Vice Admirals, and we can't compare them to those three...

But try to put Smoker in that scenario... First, he would send the 200 captains to arrest the Mugiwara, thinking that Lucci would do the job, and when Sanji did what he did, he wouldn't be able to do anything more.

If you're judging them for Dobberman's praise to Lucci, I guess you misunderstand, he wasn't praising him like if he was god, he was simply saying to the underlings:
"No need to worry, he is strong, we won't even need to move a finger, one day when he was young(...) so that Luffy brat won't stand a chance!
[hr]
ps:I was talking to the ones who wanted to lower their level, I think they're good in the current Rank!
[hr]
pps: Iva and Magellan should be traded, Iva 7 and Magellan 7.5!

Fox666
October 04, 2010, 06:37 AM
In fact I can't understand all that talk about Smoker being already at VA level before timeskip and that after it even being able to become an Admiral. It was really shown by Rayleigh that Haki matters greatly in a fight between skillfull fighters. So do you think that by any chanse Smoky can be at VA level? He doesn't posess Haki and the only advantage of his DF is being Logia in a sense that you can't touch him. He doesn't have any powerful and devastating attacks. So he will be owned by VA using Haki combined with Rokushiki or sword attacks.Luff defeated Sandersonia and Marigold (both experient Haki users) without using Haki.

Also, you don't know if Smoker can or not utilize Haki. As far I am concerned, we never saw any Vice-Admiral using Haki.

Benjamin Kaito
October 04, 2010, 06:43 AM
Beckman threatened Kizaru and that was enough to stop him on his tracks so, it shows he is quite a fighter. I would put him in the same level as the others admirals. Shanks would obviously be above but not at WB and Rogers level.

Galdino or Mr.3 is at least Arlong strong, if not higher. It was said he defeated a pirate with a bounty of 42 million. Bounties dont show strength effectively but gives us some clues. And with his fruit, i doubt he would lose to Arlong or Bellamy who could only jump from place to place.

Thats enough for now.

beastboy
October 04, 2010, 06:44 AM
@fox666
But what power would the Marines have if their third strongest force was weaker than a Rookie!

Some VA's are in the scene for 20 years (chapter 0) and I don't think some one who was a kid witnessing Roger's death, would be capable of beating them!

Fox666
October 04, 2010, 06:58 AM
Beckman threatened Kizaru and that was enough to stop him on his tracks so, it shows he is quite a fighter.Kizaru was joking, he does that all the time.

In fact, he completely ignored Beckmen when he attacked Law's submarine.

So yeah, that scene tells anything about Beckman power.

@fox666
But what power would the Marines have if their third strongest force was weaker than a Rookie!

Some VA's are in the scene for 20 years (chapter 0) and I don't think some one who was a kid witnessing Roger's death, would be capable of beating them!I don't understand your point.

First of all, Smoker is older than Hancock, and almost the age of Shanks. It's common for important characters in manga series to be young but strong.

Second, Luffy already confronted the Shichibukai. What exactly are you trying to say? =S

Schabrak
October 04, 2010, 07:04 AM
beastboy, with your argumentation in mind, the manga wouldn't make any sense, as there would never be a time, when Luffy is stronger than anybody else, since he's one of the youngest characters in the story. It's about overcoming the stronger characters in a shorter amount of time than they can grow themself, that's the plot device of 90% of manga. But don't forget Luffy's trained his "whole" life too.

Admirals are in such position because they don't fear anybody. :D

kulugo
October 04, 2010, 07:53 AM
all im saying is, VA's > Smoker.

--

and how about Nami, Usopp, Chopper being above Arlong, Bellamy, and Buggy?
i don't think they're stronger than those three pre timeskip.

Fox666
October 04, 2010, 08:51 AM
Just because Smoker is a Commodore?

It was already explained in the series that there are people weaker than Smoker with higher ranks. And the reasons are obvious.

Do you remember Commodore Purin Purin? He and his tripulation were killed in a instant by Arlong subordinates. Seriously, Smoker eat guys like that in the breakfast and use them as toilet paper.

beastboy
October 04, 2010, 11:48 AM
I was not saying that being older equals being stronger...
I was saying that experience does matters in a fight!
Of course there are those lucky assholes like Luffy who have the luck to have strength in the blood line, but you can clearly see experience when some one cuts is arm to avoid being turned to stone...
VA's are, In my opinion stronger than P-TS Luffy, If they weren't what would be the point...
Dragon could just storm Mariejoa and assume control...
He would have 4 people that really are strong (now that Garp and Sengoku retired), and a bunch of weaklings which Ivancov would pwn in a second...

I guess that the thing this war did the best was to show the difference between LUFFY and THE TOP DOGS...
I know he was kind of almost dead, but the Vigour Hormones wouldn't make that hurt his fighting style, since is body would be unaware of damage, and 2 Vice admirals didn't even let him go Gear 2...
Knowing Haki there would be no way that a V.A. would lose to Smoker, smoker's fighting style is based on his intangibility, as he surrounds the opponent with his body, and the turns it solid... if the opponent could hurt is physical body, he would be limited...

I find it hard to believe that crocodile is unaware of Haki, he is a guy who already went to the new world, and wasn't surprised by Jozz hitting him but more with his speed and power...
(Of course he was surprised when Luffy hit him, since a Rookie shouldn't know haki...)
I don't know if he can control it, but I would guess he can't, but after two years in the new world, he might have learned something!

BlackSword
October 04, 2010, 01:58 PM
Nami, Chopper & Usopp vs Bellamy, Arlong & Buggy
Nami & Chopper both beat members of CP9... Who would have in all honesty wiped the floor with Bellamy, Arlong or Buggy...
Arlong had almost no ability outside of the fact that he was slight stronger than average human beings... Nami vs Arlong... What happens when you electrocute a fish? Fried Fish... Buggy's only ability is that he can't be 'cut up'... Section Section Fruit... Electric, Melee attacks to the face and sniping + impact dials would all hurt buggy just fine... Bellamy's Spring Spring Fruit isn't faster than 'Soru' making his only advantage speed/momentum less than that of CP9... As Zoro said as they moved from Island to Island they got stronger... Even if they didn't really noticed the same goes for Chopper, Nami & Usopp...

Kizaru vs Ben Beckman: Kizaru was not joking... He made one last attack assuming that Ben wouldn't want to pick a fight with him... They were there to end the war not escalate it... After his one barrage attempt to finish Luffy off he ceased any action... If Kizaru had though Beckman of no importance he would have simply continued fighting...

Vice Admirals vs Smoker: Vice Admirals that we have seen have all been relatively on the same 'level' of power... Smoker being stronger than Vice Admirals I think is a bit far fetched... Smoker's jutte did give him the edge against other DF users such as Luffy however as we saw vs someone with haki he got stopped in his tracks... Logia's in general as blackbeard pointed out while fighting Ace are strong because they generally don't take damage... You start wailing on Smoker and I don't think he is going to be putting put much resistance... I.E Boa Hancock vs Smoker...

Battle Experience in OP World: From what we've seen battle experience doesn't matter nearly as much as battle ingenuity... Sure Momonga stabbed himself to avoid being turned to stone however how is going to fight while stabbing himself? Being able to adapt to your opponent quickly (i.e Luffy using the walls to bounce his rubber attacks off of to defeat mantra) is what counts in One Piece... You can have all the experience in the world and even know what is coming but if you can't react appropriately it matters not...

Schabrak
October 04, 2010, 02:21 PM
How can you still insist that Kizaru wasn't joking? His expression, his whole presentation from Shaobobi Archipelago on, did show him to be an overconfident, mocking character [who can back it up]. Kinda like Doflamingo, but salaried. Of course he knew, that he had to stop after that try reading the situation with the Red Hairs, but it was definitely worth taking the risk to fullfil the last standing order, namely taking out Dragons son.

Those experienced pirates wouldn't have lasted so long, if they weren't able to adapt and react "appropriately" to the situation. One unlucky party always has to lose.

EDIT: And of course everybody is miles away from anyone they met in the East Blue. I rarely predict something, but even Chopper should be near supernova niveau right now, if they aim to get anything done in the New World.

kulugo
October 04, 2010, 02:28 PM
i now agree with Chopper, Usopp and Nami stronger than Bellamy, Arlong and Buggy.

and what Freid said.

Fox666
October 05, 2010, 06:28 AM
I was not saying that being older equals being stronger...
I was saying that experience does matters in a fight!
Of course there are those lucky assholes like Luffy who have the luck to have strength in the blood line, but you can clearly see experience when some one cuts is arm to avoid being turned to stone...Again, I don't see your point. You are more-or-less measuring power by age.

VA's are, In my opinion stronger than P-TS Luffy, If they weren't what would be the point...
Dragon could just storm Mariejoa and assume control...
He would have 4 people that really are strong (now that Garp and Sengoku retired), and a bunch of weaklings which Ivancov would pwn in a second...First of all, you can't say that anyone is stronger than Luffy after the timeskip, because you don't know what is Luffy's strength now.

Second that you also don't know the revolutionary power. Perhaps Ivankov is the second in command, and so on there is no other man stronger than him in the revolutionaries?

And third, I don't understand what you mean by the "what would be the point". Luffy already fought with the Shichibukai. Vice-Admiral level is kind of out-dated in the series.

I guess that the thing this war did the best was to show the difference between LUFFY and THE TOP DOGS...
I know he was kind of almost dead, but the Vigour Hormones wouldn't make that hurt his fighting style, since is body would be unaware of damage, and 2 Vice admirals didn't even let him go Gear 2...Exactly!
1. There was 2 opponents
2. Luffy wasn't using Gear 2
3. Luffy was using Vigour Hormones, which 10 seconds after that Luffy couldn't move from the floor.

Do you see how you can't use that as a reference?

Knowing Haki there would be no way that a V.A. would lose to Smoker, smoker's fighting style is based on his intangibility, as he surrounds the opponent with his body, and the turns it solid... if the opponent could hurt is physical body, he would be limited...We saw Marco and Vista attacking Akainu with Haki, which did not hurt Akainu. Haki is not something that can automatically kill a Logia.

I don't see why expect that a Vice-Admiral, just because they can use Haki, can just defeat Smoker.

I find it hard to believe that crocodile is unaware of Haki, he is a guy who already went to the new world, and wasn't surprised by Jozz hitting him but more with his speed and power...
(Of course he was surprised when Luffy hit him, since a Rookie shouldn't know haki...)
I don't know if he can control it, but I would guess he can't, but after two years in the new world, he might have learned something!Since I expect Smoker to be stronger than Vice-Admiral, I don't see why think he can't use it. He already displayed knowledge of it when hit by Hancock.

Vice Admirals vs Smoker: Vice Admirals that we have seen have all been relatively on the same 'level' of power... Smoker being stronger than Vice Admirals I think is a bit far fetched... Smoker's jutte did give him the edge against other DF users such as Luffy however as we saw vs someone with haki he got stopped in his tracks... Logia's in general as blackbeard pointed out while fighting Ace are strong because they generally don't take damage... You start wailing on Smoker and I don't think he is going to be putting put much resistance... I.E Boa Hancock vs Smoker... But what exactly have we seen from Vice-Admirals?

I don't see any reference of their power, except they being humilhated by the Shichibukai and some of them defeated during Marineford. Not to forget they praised Rob Lucci!

I remember Luffy defeating Haki-users already. I don't see why think that because Vice-Admirals can use Haki they would be stronger than Smoker or Luffy.

[hr]

How can you still insist that Kizaru wasn't joking? His expression, his whole presentation from Shaobobi Archipelago on, did show him to be an overconfident, mocking character [who can back it up]. Kinda like Doflamingo, but salaried. Of course he knew, that he had to stop after that try reading the situation with the Red Hairs, but it was definitely worth taking the risk to fullfil the last standing order, namely taking out Dragons son.Here goes some scans, just look how Kizaru does that kind of joke all the time

http://img834.imageshack.us/img834/3492/kizaru1t.png (http://img3.imageshack.us/img3/6830/kizaru1s.png)
http://img837.imageshack.us/img837/7360/kizaru2t.png (http://img15.imageshack.us/img15/5254/kizaru2.png)
http://img707.imageshack.us/img707/2195/kizaru3t.png (http://img824.imageshack.us/img824/2292/kizaru3.png)
http://img841.imageshack.us/img841/4339/kizaru4t.png (http://img715.imageshack.us/img715/5086/kizaru4.png)
http://img543.imageshack.us/img543/2825/kizaru5t.png (http://img375.imageshack.us/img375/9595/kizaru5.png)

bittman
October 05, 2010, 06:47 AM
I'm going to make a brief stab at the much higher levels of gameplay here: the admirals and the old farts.

Ok, let's get the first things out first: the old farts (Garp, Sengoku + Rayleigh) are living legends, and forces of power in their own right. You could desirably debate that each of them is on par with Whitebeard even with the age disadvantage.

However, let me stop you there. Legends are those who have acredited a long history of accomplishments through their life, however if WB showed us anything it's that power does not last forever. We have seen samples and notes by most of the older generation that they are no longer near their prime. Garp said it whilst throwing cannonballs and Rayleigh said it whilst holding off Kizaru.

So what's my point? I believe the admirals are equal, if not above, the old farts. I.e. I believe levels 9.5 and 9 could be easily switched. Let's take examples:

Our earliest example of comparison would be Rayleigh vs Kizaru. We are shown that Rayleigh is able to hold off, and deflect attacks of, an admiral (an unparalleled feat at the time). However, only a chapter later a panting Rayleigh is unable to break away from Kizaru whilst Kizaru does his Kizaru joking thing. If this had dragged on, I cannot see Kizaru losing.
Our major point of reference, and the reason admirals are seen beneath the legends/old farts, is Whitebeard. Sure, let's get it out there that Whitebeard kicked some ass. Sometimes, he kicked several asses at once. However, I know I was reading a very different battle to many people since I witnessed the desperate struggle of WB against the fit, hardened and well experience admirals. Outside of hitting Akainu in the spine and the consequental follow-up, WB did not actually inflict blood-spurting damage on any of the admirals. In fact, each admiral was able to inflict damage, or at least press an advantage each time we saw a momentary 1v1. I know many readers came out of this arc with a "OMG WB > everyone, if only he didnt get stabbed". Let me remind you, that not once in the battle did WB complain about a stab wound. In fact, WB seemed to only falter under his own health (clutches his chest whilst fighting Akainu). So then the other arguement is "If WB was still young..." Yes, but he isn't. If this was a "In the good old days", we will never be able to compare it, because then I might as well future timeskip Luffy and say "Level 11".

Ok I only listed two things, planned a bit about Sengoku and Garp, but they aren't particularly good reference points.

tl;dr: admirals (Kizaru, Akainu, Aokoji) >= old farts (Garp, Sengoku, Rayleigh, possibly WB).

P.S. I don't think Roger should be in this poll, since he's dead his level is 0. If Roger and a maggot fought right now, the maggot would eat him for breakfast.

P.P.S. If Roger is in the poll at 10, Luffy should be 11, Smoker 9, WB 10, Garp 10, Sengoku 9.5, Rayleigh 9.5, Coby 9, BB 10, Ussop 8.5, Zoro 11, Kidd 10, Luffy Jr 10, etc)

BlackSword
October 05, 2010, 07:46 AM
I'm going to make a brief stab at the much higher levels of gameplay here: the admirals and the old farts.

Ok, let's get the first things out first: the old farts (Garp, Sengoku + Rayleigh) are living legends, and forces of power in their own right. You could desirably debate that each of them is on par with Whitebeard even with the age disadvantage.

However, let me stop you there. Legends are those who have acredited a long history of accomplishments through their life, however if WB showed us anything it's that power does not last forever. We have seen samples and notes by most of the older generation that they are no longer near their prime. Garp said it whilst throwing cannonballs and Rayleigh said it whilst holding off Kizaru.

So what's my point? I believe the admirals are equal, if not above, the old farts. I.e. I believe levels 9.5 and 9 could be easily switched. Let's take examples:

Our earliest example of comparison would be Rayleigh vs Kizaru. We are shown that Rayleigh is able to hold off, and deflect attacks of, an admiral (an unparalleled feat at the time). However, only a chapter later a panting Rayleigh is unable to break away from Kizaru whilst Kizaru does his Kizaru joking thing. If this had dragged on, I cannot see Kizaru losing.
Our major point of reference, and the reason admirals are seen beneath the legends/old farts, is Whitebeard. Sure, let's get it out there that Whitebeard kicked some ass. Sometimes, he kicked several asses at once. However, I know I was reading a very different battle to many people since I witnessed the desperate struggle of WB against the fit, hardened and well experience admirals. Outside of hitting Akainu in the spine and the consequental follow-up, WB did not actually inflict blood-spurting damage on any of the admirals. In fact, each admiral was able to inflict damage, or at least press an advantage each time we saw a momentary 1v1. I know many readers came out of this arc with a "OMG WB > everyone, if only he didnt get stabbed". Let me remind you, that not once in the battle did WB complain about a stab wound. In fact, WB seemed to only falter under his own health (clutches his chest whilst fighting Akainu). So then the other arguement is "If WB was still young..." Yes, but he isn't. If this was a "In the good old days", we will never be able to compare it, because then I might as well future timeskip Luffy and say "Level 11".

Ok I only listed two things, planned a bit about Sengoku and Garp, but they aren't particularly good reference points.

tl;dr: admirals (Kizaru, Akainu, Aokoji) >= old farts (Garp, Sengoku, Rayleigh, possibly WB).

P.S. I don't think Roger should be in this poll, since he's dead his level is 0. If Roger and a maggot fought right now, the maggot would eat him for breakfast.

P.P.S. If Roger is in the poll at 10, Luffy should be 11, Smoker 9, WB 10, Garp 10, Sengoku 9.5, Rayleigh 9.5, Coby 9, BB 10, Ussop 8.5, Zoro 11, Kidd 10, Luffy Jr 10, etc)

If you look at the battle the Admirals did not move or attempt anything outside of ranged attacks until after Whitebeard was injured almost to the point of being dead on his feet... I'm pretty sure that Whitebeard vs 1 or even 2 admirals would be a tough battle... And that isn't mention his crew...
You are probably right about Kizaru vs Rayleigh as far as I remember Rayleigh was busy trying to make sure the 'young sprouts' as he called them weren't annihilated... Fighting while defending someone seems a pretty difficult task but I really think the old farts need their own rank... The 9.5 Rank as it is now simply is there to show those old farts at their prime. How we assume they would be rated judging by past/previous events.

As for Kizaru's joking mannerism I'm fairly certain that Kizaru could be within an inch of having his life taken and still joke around... It's just his character... I believe the only time we would see Kizaru being serious is just like Luffy when he is really pissed off... I'm not saying Ben Beckman would have 1hit Kizaru or anything like that... I'm simply saying that he made him pause and think.

Roger is the man that all pirates in this series base their strength upon... He is the driving force of the pirate age... In as Whitebeard died he tried to be like Roger. 'One Piece Exists'... Sure he is dead now but his power was without a doubt the 'height' of the pirates...

Schabrak
October 05, 2010, 09:34 AM
Or Kizaru was just taking a short pause to make a joke about Beckman, a never ending story here... both are likely one of the strongest men[plural] alive, but there's no more evidence on who's stronger than who, I hope there never will; power levels should have died with DBZ.

Isn't that evidence enough, that he's weaker than Kizaru right now?
http://img153.imageshack.us/img153/3053/87714818.png

Even though Whitebeard was once the strongest man of the world, it doesn't say, that some cunning pirate/marine couldn't beat him. Just because someone used ranged attacks on him, doesn't make them any less fair one on one confrontations.

Fox666
October 05, 2010, 10:26 AM
I would request to remove Garp and Roger from the list. We have not seen they fighting. It's pure based on stories about their past.

bittman,
I wouldn't place Sengoku below the Admirals. He attacked the entire Blackbeard pirates and made everybody bleed, including Shilliew.

Schabrak,
I agree. I found odd that in the list Rayleigh is placed so high. I would place him on level 8.5 (lower than the Admirals). I also would place Marco on the same level of the Admirals, but a little above, so I would put him too in 8.5.

BlackSword
October 05, 2010, 12:02 PM
Updated:
Rayleigh: Moved to 8.5...
Marco: Moved to 8.5...
Name: Changed from Deceased ---> To Deceased or No On Panel Fights

v.03

zelllogan
October 05, 2010, 12:50 PM
Ivankov is still ahead of Magellan. What do you have against Magellan ???

BlackSword
October 05, 2010, 02:54 PM
Ivankov vs Magellan:
Ivankov beat Kuma up during the war...
Everyone Magellan was facing during the Impel Down Arc was running away from him... Not because if forced to they couldn't fight him but because they had other places to be... (With the exception of Luffy who got his ass kicked... No argument there...) Kuma doesn't belong on the same level as Magellan and that should mean Ivankov who beat him doesn't belongs on the same level as Magellan... Furthermore the battle between Ivankov and Magellan happened 'Off Panel'... People say Ivankov lost? Yet Ivankov escaped and managed to reach Luffy & Escape... Ivankov completed his mission which was to stall Magellan long enough for them to acquire a ship nothing more...

St Michael
October 05, 2010, 03:25 PM
Sorry me but I insist , Ace has nothing to do in level 8 :D

Jinbei and him were equals , even if he had the advantage of being a logia. Jinbei is lvl 7.

7.5 at best for Gol D Ace ..

Don't you think ? Am I alone thinking he's overrated ? :p

zelllogan
October 05, 2010, 03:36 PM
Ivankov was trashed easily by Magellan. And no, Ivankov couldn't even win enough time ...
http://www.ourmanga.com/One_Piece/545/17
So, please, Magellan is way better than ivankov

And ivankov didn't fight Kuma ... ivankov fought PX-0 "Dead Kuma" ... a puppet

Kaiser Will
October 05, 2010, 08:25 PM
I think Marco is named as Macro in your post and it's Sentomaru, just so you can fix.

BTW, good thread!

One thing about rating character strength in general is that it actually almost never reflect reality.

Like, Luffy is in Level 5 and Crocodile is in Level 7, but Luffy has already defeated him.
Also, some characters strength are based on pure speculation, i.e Do Flamingo, we never really saw a real fight with him. Although I agree that he is around at Level 8.

And one more thing, IMO, the WB Captain and the Shichibukai are on the same level, except Moria.

I don't have a freaking idea about the VA, I mean they are supposed to have the same abilities as the CP9, (Rokushiki, maybe?), but Luffy beat the strongest member of all history within the Cipher Pol., Rob Lucci, so for me Lucci, should be around the same level as a VA.

So, I agree with almost everything, in a normal situation I think it is pretty much the levels of strength in OP.

Note: Can you put Roger and WB on Level 11, I don't have a very good reason for this, but they're out of this world, I mean, like it was said in the manga, excluding them, the rest was just silver medalists.

Freid
October 05, 2010, 09:03 PM
The ranking does not include Luffy's in human will which is what allowed Luffy to beat Luchi . Im not sure if Luffy was able to access the strength he unlocked to beat luchi with after that arc. Because of this, I wouldn't put Luffy as high as them on the ranking. VA are at the level they are ordinarily which cant really be said for Luffy. Luffy reached his limit in the fight with Luchi. He literally had nothing left. The only thing keeping him fighting was his will when his strength alone proved insufficient. He was basically running on auto pilot. Its abit like the fight between rock lee and gaara in naruto. Rock lee was totally beat but the only thing keeping him fighting was his will. So basically, Luffy without the advantage of his will that enables him to fight after he has clearly been beaten is probably rear admiral level. An in-human-will filled luffy = VA. Its that simple really. My gues is that if you put Luffy against a VA, sure he would beat them but he'll probably end up in the same condition and go through what he went through against Luchi. That does not make him VA level imo.

Kaiser Will
October 05, 2010, 09:25 PM
One thing about rating character strength in general is that it actually almost never reflect reality.

So, I agree with almost everything, in a normal situation I think it is pretty much the levels of strength in OP.



The ranking does not include Luffy's in human will which is what allowed Luffy to beat Luchi . Im not sure if Luffy was able to access the strength he unlocked to beat luchi with after that arc. Because of this, I wouldn't put Luffy as high as them on the ranking. VA are at the level they are ordinarily which cant really be said for Luffy. Luffy reached his limit in the fight with Luchi. He literally had nothing left. The only thing keeping him fighting was his will when his strength alone proved insufficient. He was basically running on auto pilot. Its abit like the fight between rock lee and gaara in naruto. Rock lee was totally beat but the only thing keeping him fighting was his will. So basically, Luffy without the advantage of his will that enables him to fight after he has clearly been beaten is probably rear admiral level. An in-human-will filled luffy = VA. Its that simple really. My gues is that if you put Luffy against a VA, sure he would beat them but he'll probably end up in the same condition as he did against Luchi. That does not make him VA level imo.

Do you actually read my post? I said that it's hard to measure strength because of, as you say, and I'm saying again now, external circunstances. As you mentioned in your post, Luffy's will, which, btw, was a deciding factor for Luffy victory.

And, Smoker is a Commodore, which is below a Rear Admiral. So I'm not sure about Luffy being in the same Level as a Rear.
Also, when checking all member of a certain group (i.e Shichibukai), we tend to usually rate from above. It has a high possibility that exist weaker members than others.

I think only in the Admiral Level is almost equally rated.

Freid
October 05, 2010, 09:55 PM
Do you actually read my post? I said that it's hard to measure strength because of, as you say, and I'm saying again now, external circunstances. As you mentioned in your post, Luffy's will, which, btw, was a deciding factor for Luffy victory.

And, Smoker is a Commodore, which is below a Rear Admiral. So I'm not sure about Luffy being in the same Level as a Rear.
Also, when checking all member of a certain group (i.e Shichibukai), we tend to usually rate from above. It has a high possibility that exist weaker members than others.

I think only in the Admiral Level is almost equally rated.

:err The very first line of my post referred to the fact that CrownedClown said Luffy's will is not included in the ranks. I elaborated on the fact that its not particularly fair to do so. Allot of my post was also tending to the general issue about Luffy being on VA level since I had never actually stated my view on it before. I wrote that originally in my post but felt like it was pretty obvious from the fact that I never disagreed with your post whatsoever. I took what you said about Luffy defeating Luchi and made my own post. Again, it should have been obvious from the fact that nothing I said challenged anything you said. I would apologise for it looking like i challenged your post but nah

Also, I think Luffy is rear level. Apart from smoker, Im pretty sure Luffy can take out commodore level marines and Rear admiral level marines. Not being able to beat 1 out of a possible 50 or so of that level hardly means he aint on the level or above

Kaiser Will
October 05, 2010, 10:10 PM
Then, I misunderstood your post.
I get your point now, but it really sounded wierd for me, hence the misinterpretation, and the Luffy in the ranking system is only from before the training, which I don't quite like the idea, but since we didn't see him in action yet, it's hard to tell. So, for now, it should remain the way it is now.

BlackSword
October 06, 2010, 05:41 AM
Both names updated....
Sentoumaru - http://onepiece.wikia.com/wiki/Sentoumaru
Marco - http://onepiece.wikia.com/wiki/Marco
Macro is a Fishman pirate and the leader the Macro Fishman Pirates. He first appeared in Hatchan's Sea-Floor Stroll mini-series. Macro is a Fishman whose fish half is a fish called Macropharynx, a Japanese scientific name for Gulper Eels. His fish half is specifically the Gulper Eel classified as Pelican Eel.

About Roger/WB at level 11. Level 10 is kinda the 'Out of this world' rank as it is.
I mean they are the only ones in it and likely to remain the only ones in that rank until the end of the series when Luffy (in theory should be on that level.)
The Vice-Admirals are said to posses both Haki/Rokushiki. In all honesty Rob Lucci should in theory be able to go against the Vice-Admirals however we don't know how/if haki would come to play in said battle. Not to mention that fact that COO haki would virtually give an Auto-Win to the Marine VAs simply because they could predict all his attacks and seeing as they both use the same fighting style. Rokushiki then in theory the Vice-Admirals should be stronger.

bittman
October 06, 2010, 08:14 AM
Ok now turning my sights on two individuals:

1) Crocodile: Level 7? Really? Is it because he's a logia, or that he actually got somewhat decent attacks off during the war because Oda displayed an obvious hard-on for Croco-boy? Every other level 7 should mop Crocodile across the floor as would most, if not all tbh, of level 6. At least move him to level 6. If your counter debate will be "Croc > Smoker", then I say "Smoker > Luffy" and "Luffy > Croc". Suddenly, omg scissor-paper-rock.

2) Magellan. Seriously, this guy is above Blackbeard, but I would simply accept being at level 8 minimum. Remember, the only thing that stopped Magellan properly was the release of almost all silver-medalist prisoners. We can only hypothesise what exactly took Magellan down in ID unless we get a flashback (potentially not), but given what we actually saw of Magellan no one (1) individual (heck, not even the team of jailbreaks) stood against him and came off best. The Iva arguement holds no weight, if Iva was stronger than Magellan (or even close), then team with Jimbei, Croc and Luffy and wreck his shit.

Whenever I post next I'll probably target Ace, Brooke and Daz Bones.

P.S. Would you also be able to add "CP9" at level 5 (or 4.5) for a comparison? I know they had their own levels, but generally they were around there.

BlackSword
October 06, 2010, 11:16 AM
Ok now turning my sights on two individuals:

1) Crocodile: Level 7? Really? Is it because he's a logia, or that he actually got somewhat decent attacks off during the war because Oda displayed an obvious hard-on for Croco-boy? Every other level 7 should mop Crocodile across the floor as would most, if not all tbh, of level 6. At least move him to level 6. If your counter debate will be "Croc > Smoker", then I say "Smoker > Luffy" and "Luffy > Croc". Suddenly, omg scissor-paper-rock.

2) Magellan. Seriously, this guy is above Blackbeard, but I would simply accept being at level 8 minimum. Remember, the only thing that stopped Magellan properly was the release of almost all silver-medalist prisoners. We can only hypothesise what exactly took Magellan down in ID unless we get a flashback (potentially not), but given what we actually saw of Magellan no one (1) individual (heck, not even the team of jailbreaks) stood against him and came off best. The Iva arguement holds no weight, if Iva was stronger than Magellan (or even close), then team with Jimbei, Croc and Luffy and wreck his shit.

Whenever I post next I'll probably target Ace, Brooke and Daz Bones.

P.S. Would you also be able to add "CP9" at level 5 (or 4.5) for a comparison? I know they had their own levels, but generally they were around there.

Crocodile: Crocodile losing to Luffy 1/3 is if anything Luck... Him discovering his weakness and getting saved by Robin is insane amount of Luck. Furthermore Oda having a hard-on for Croc-boy says it all... Oda set him up in the war to be one of the most powerful characters... Post-War most people thought Crocodile was a joke however seeing that he did arguably the best against Akainu (besides Whitebeard) and kicked ass on numerous fronts not to mention was were ever the fighting was thickest puts him squarely on Level 7. The only thing stopping Crocodile from being even higher rank is the fact that he has shown no knowledge of haki.

Magellan: Seeing as multiple people have made the same argument about Magellan I re-read the entire Impel Down Arc. Magellan is strong I completely agree and after re-reading I'll move him to to 7.5 and Ivankov to 7. I really don't think he was above Blackbeard... I simply thing Blackbeard was doing his whole 'let fate' decide thing... Furthermore Doc Q gave him the Antidote to Magellan's poison which means on any future encounters Blackbeard can simply negate his power... Pretty much by Magellan not killing Blackbeard during their first encounter he gave up pretty much any chance he had of killing Blackbeard. Furthermore I highly doubt we have seen all Blackbeard is capable of and putting Magellan on the same level as other Level 8s would pretty much mean he would be toast. No offense to the guy he is strong he just isn't that strong... Simply put Magellan vs Mihawk, Boa, Beckman, Jozu or Kuma would pretty much end in Magellan getting his ass handed to him... Even vs Enel (Who is at 7.5) I think Magellan would get toasted. Enel's intangibility + ranged electricity would render Magellan's ability practically pointless and seeing that Magellan is Parmacia and not Logia his ability is pretty limit to being strong against only people who use physical attacks.

Update:
Magellan to 7.5
Ivankov to 7.
Ace to 7.5

St Michael
October 06, 2010, 12:50 PM
Ok now turning my sights on two individuals:

1) Crocodile: Level 7? Really? Is it because he's a logia, or that he actually got somewhat decent attacks off during the war because Oda displayed an obvious hard-on for Croco-boy? Every other level 7 should mop Crocodile across the floor as would most, if not all tbh, of level 6. At least move him to level 6. If your counter debate will be "Croc > Smoker", then I say "Smoker > Luffy" and "Luffy > Croc". Suddenly, omg scissor-paper-rock.

And he survives the war... actually kicking ass in the process. Honestly , I'm kinda a fanboy. And before the war I would have probably agreed with you. But you can't say he was outpowered during MF .. and he fought big names , emerging without (significant) harm. The dude is stronger than lvl 6.

Anyway , agree about Magellan , can't believe I don't see he was so low. Thks CrownedClown for the update. You are doing a great work.

beastboy
October 06, 2010, 01:05 PM
There are 2 Ace's! ROFL
And I would move Zoro to the same level as Luffy!
Their Battle Level isn't that different, In my opinion the diference between Sanji and Zoro is better than Zoro's and Luffy....

St Michael
October 06, 2010, 01:36 PM
There are 2 Ace's! ROFL
And I would move Zoro to the same level as Luffy!
Their Battle Level isn't that different, In my opinion the diference between Sanji and Zoro is better than Zoro's and Luffy....

Dunno .. during EL , Luffy has to fight Lucci , 4000 doriki. Zoro , Kaku , 2300 doriki (I may be wrong though). Sanji , Jyabura , 2200 doriki. The difference between Zoro's opponent and Sanji's is pretty low.

Plus Luffy was convinced Lucci would kill his crewmates if he let him go. Zoro included.

BlackSword
October 06, 2010, 01:56 PM
Okay, only 1 Ace again...
Luffy vs Zoro vs Sanji: I have to agree with St Michael on this one. Kaku was far weaker (according to Cp9s own admission) than Lucci... If we were judging the monster trio in Doriko i think it would be something like...
Luffy: 3400
Zoro: 2500
Sanji: 2300
But this is completely speculation...

scyter
October 07, 2010, 06:26 AM
Okay, only 1 Ace again...
Luffy vs Zoro vs Sanji: I have to agree with St Michael on this one. Kaku was far weaker (according to Cp9s own admission) than Lucci... If we were judging the monster trio in Doriko i think it would be something like...
Luffy: 3400
Zoro: 2500
Sanji: 2300
But this is completely speculation...

Nah, I think that Zoro and Luffy are equal regarding the strength. They fought two times already and it was always a draw.

Wisshard
October 07, 2010, 07:06 AM
If we were judging the monster trio in Doriko i think it would be something like...
Luffy: 3400
Zoro: 2500
Sanji: 2300
But this is completely speculation...
I assume you mean how they would have ranked during Enies Lobby? Either way, considering Base Luffy near enough went toe-to-toe with 4000 Douriki Base Lucci, I think EN Base Luffy had around 3600-3800 Douriki.

That being said, I think the Monster Trio's are close to each other in combat prowess; Zoro is slightly weaker than Luffy, and Sanji is slightly weaker than Zoro.


Nah, I think that Zoro and Luffy are equal regarding the strength. They fought two times already and it was always a draw.
They have fought once, 500 chapters ago - and besides, the fight was brief, since Nami interrupted them.

OP@,
Why did you put Garp and Sengoku above the Admirals, but Rayleigh (and Marco) below? Assuming you ranked Garp and Sengoku in their primes, you should do the same favor for Rayleigh imo.

And while Crocodile is a great guy and one of my favorite characters, putting him in the same tier as Jinbei is stretching it, for now anyway (he may show some improvement after the time skip).

You also greatly overestimate Enel. While he has great destructive power, he'd be completely stomped by any of the high-top tiers in a fight - considering his serious lack of physical prowess and CoA.
Destructive power =/= fighting strength.

Schabrak
October 07, 2010, 08:08 AM
Than you should assume, that he ranked them for their current strength, as Whitebeard was still the strongest man alive in before his death, while Rogers crew was the best in before they disbanded. Why should he rank them in their prime, if we talk about the current timeline?

We can discuss Crocodile for ever, but the only reason he lost to Luffy in Alabasta was due to the use of water, his greatest and probably single weakness. Aside from that he has never shown to be on the losing side.[Luffy used water in the WB war again}

scyter
October 07, 2010, 08:29 AM
No it was two times, first was whiskey peak and second the time when they all lost their memories

zelllogan
October 07, 2010, 09:19 AM
No it was two times, first was whiskey peak and second the time when they all lost their memories
They never lost their memories in the manga.


About sanji & zoro, I won't hide that my fav strawhat is sanji. But in terms of strenght, they are almost equal to me.

The best way to verify that is their CP9 opponents.
Jyabura :
2180 dourikis
is a zoan and is experienced with it
utterly lost to sanji. Sanji had a rather easy win

Kaku:
2200 dourikis
is a zoan and no experience with it
lost in a difficult fight with zoro

Given this, it is difficult to think that zoro is that much stronger than sanji.

scyter
October 07, 2010, 09:23 AM
They never lost their memories in the manga.


About sanji & zoro, I won't hide that my fav strawhat is sanji. But in terms of strenght, they are almost equal to me.

The best way to verify that is their CP9 opponents.
Jyabura :
2180 dourikis
is a zoan and is experienced with it
utterly lost to sanji. Sanji had a rather easy win

Kaku:
2200 dourikis
is a zoan and no experience with it
lost in a difficult fight with zoro

Given this, it is difficult to think that zoro is that much stronger than sanji.

Yes it was a filler but it's a same thing anime=manga. It's the same

zelllogan
October 07, 2010, 09:27 AM
hmmmmmm ... no comment

St Michael
October 07, 2010, 09:29 AM
No it's not.

At the Jyabura - Sanji match, I won't say the last defeated easily the first.

Sanji has been severly injured before he OS'ed Jyabura. (two shot'ed actually :p)

BlackSword
October 07, 2010, 09:37 AM
How about we not Count filler Episodes? Especially seeing as Luffy defeated a pirate that was said to be able to go toe to toe with roger in movie 10... Or the fact that Luffy had to use Gear Second on some random trash in Movie 9... Movies & Filler Episodes are excluded from the ranking/judging as are all characters who appear in said formats... Fights between Zoro & Luffy = 1 Whiskey Peaks...

MonsterEnvy
October 07, 2010, 10:45 AM
Than you should assume, that he ranked them for their current strength, as Whitebeard was still the strongest man alive in before his death, while Rogers crew was the best in before they disbanded. Why should he rank them in their prime, if we talk about the current timeline?

We can discuss Crocodile for ever, but the only reason he lost to Luffy in Alabasta was due to the use of water, his greatest and probably single weakness. Aside from that he has never shown to be on the losing side.[Luffy used water in the WB war again}

Croc also lost because he did not use his powers for some reason and felt like beating luffy the old fasion way if he had used his powers luffy would have been crushed

Croc would beat Jinbei and mihawk in a fight by sucking all th water out of them Jinbei throws a wave at croc and croc sucks the wave up then drains the all the water from the area no more weakness for croc

beastboy
October 07, 2010, 11:33 AM
Crocodile Lost because of Plot!
I mean, he could have done to Luffy what he did to Akainu, and there wouldn't be luck enough to save him!
Just see how easily he won the first and the second fight...
If he repeated moves he would have won...
I mean, if he did Sables in the ruins everyone there would be screwed!

Lord Rayleigh
October 07, 2010, 11:43 AM
He meant that Smoker has advantage over Luffy. Much like Luffy vs Enel.
We know he did and his argument is still completely wrong. We won't outrank any logia Devil Fruit users because their fruit are powerful and give them a major power up.

Besides Smoker does not have dangerous logia attacks and he has always beaten Luffy with his own physical abilities. The Admirals's attacks are much more devil fruit related and yet no-one misjudge them. If Smoker was not that strong, he wouldn't be able to beat Luffy who would escape all of his attempts to beat him. He must not forget that being intangible does not make people strong but protect them.

Roarchu
October 07, 2010, 12:17 PM
what a heck? Tashigi in the same class as Bon-chan (who was able to pound a few to the Minotaurus) and only 1 class below Daz ??!!!

hmmm...during Arabasta:

Bon-chan ~ Sanji ~ Zoro >> Tashigi

------------------------------------------------------------------------

can we put Don Krieg somewhere? he's one of my favs....

--------------------------------------------------------------------------

I might consider making a 7.75 for Enel...it'd be hard to beat the people ranked above him. But for sheer military strength he's on a rank of his own with his fruit power, his electromagnetically amplified mantra and the magnitude of power he can put into such long range (and unexpected) attacks..

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------

also, can we make a

Jimbei (land) vs Jimbei (sea) ??? I think that'd be more accurate

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

and we're being conservative with ppl like Dofla and Mihawk right? since we've never really seen their strenght?

Jorge D. Dragon
October 07, 2010, 03:05 PM
Guys... about "Monster Trio"... they are deffinetly on different levels. Zoro is slightly better than Sanji (pre time-skip), but Luffy is two times stronger in terms of Doriki (destructive power in Rokushiki system, cause his opponent was two times stronger) and his speed is in the other league compared to their. Also Luffy got even bigger powerups during next arcs, especially in Impel down. so I can't understand why people try to say that they are practically equal, when they deffinetly are not.

MonsterEnvy
October 07, 2010, 03:06 PM
How about we not Count filler Episodes? Especially seeing as Luffy defeated a pirate that was said to be able to go toe to toe with roger in movie 10... Or the fact that Luffy had to use Gear Second on some random trash in Movie 9... Movies & Filler Episodes are excluded from the ranking/judging as are all characters who appear in said formats... Fights between Zoro & Luffy = 1 Whiskey Peaks...

Shiki the golden lion is a canon character Luffy beat him only do to shiki's lack of knowalage about rubber he could have beaten luffy anytime he wanted at the end of there fight and he beat the whole stawhat crew easily before

but thought that the lightning was going to fininsh him then he remembered that rubber does not conduct electristy and got beat

if Shiki had not forgotten that fact he would have won

hey why don't you add shiki to that list i would put him near the top

beastboy
October 07, 2010, 04:06 PM
Just one thing, you can't measure monster trio by their oponents... Luffy couldn't stand after the fight, while the other 2 were able to fight 200 marine captains (together with the other crew members)!

Fox666
October 07, 2010, 10:27 PM
Okay, only 1 Ace again...
Luffy vs Zoro vs Sanji: I have to agree with St Michael on this one. Kaku was far weaker (according to Cp9s own admission) than Lucci... If we were judging the monster trio in Doriko i think it would be something like...
Luffy: 3400
Zoro: 2500
Sanji: 2300
But this is completely speculation...This is quite interesting. However, first of all, we need to determine what would be the Douriki of the Zoan forms.

Normally, they are:
Lucci: 4,000
Jyabura: 2,180
Kaku: 2,200

I would put the Zoan forms as:
Lucci: 5,000
Jyabura: 2,500
Kaku: 2,500

So, for that, I would make the Monster Trio:
Zoro: 2,700
Sanji: 2,700
Luffy: 2,800
Luffy Gear 2: 4,800

Wisshard
October 08, 2010, 03:32 AM
Than you should assume, that he ranked them for their current strength
I assumed he ranked them in their prime, because he placed them as the current strongest living men. Considering the current Admirals would be rather disappointing if they can't even match up to the old school Admirals when they're old men, and they themselves are in their prime.



We can discuss Crocodile for ever, but the only reason he lost to Luffy in Alabasta was due to the use of water, his greatest and probably single weakness. Aside from that he has never shown to be on the losing side.[Luffy used water in the WB war again}
Indeed, I agree; Crocodile would've defeated Luffy if he wasn't blinded by pride and arrogance.

However, by feats, Crocodile's reaction and attack speed is about on par with Arabasta Luffy, who was able to hit Crocodile (with water) and dodge Crocodile's attacks (sand as well as hook). Thus, considering Luffy's vast growth, we can reasonably assume that G2 Luffy would have had little trouble evading Crocodile's attacks and landing attacks (with liquid) on Crocodile. We can also infer that people who kept up with or surpassed G2 Luffy's speed would be able to evade and hit Crocodile with ease. Which, going purely by manga feats, should put Jinbei, Ivankov, Vista (very likely Sentoumaru and Shiliew as well) above him, and Lucci, Smoker, Luffy at least on par with him in an overall combat prowess ranking.

You may argue that Crocodile is a logia, but he has a weakness that is easy to exploit, given that you can deal with his attack speed until you figure it out, and besides, it's very likely that Jinbei and Ivankov possess CoA (like Vista does). Thus, we can reasonably conclude that he would loose to those I listed above, since their speed far exceed his; he would have trouble reacting to them, while they would be able to evade his attacks with little trouble.

That being said, I do like Crocodile. Hell, he is my favorite character, what with his fearless demeanor, ruthless arrogance and sinister attitude, and I hope that he improves during the time skip.


No it was two times, first was whiskey peak and second the time when they all lost their memories
The second time was filler.

St Michael
October 08, 2010, 10:59 AM
You analysed Alabasta's Crocodile speed.

During MF , Croc looks a lot quicker. I.E , when he prevented Mihawk from getting Luffy. (actually from killing Daz)

Don't forget that he blew Doflamingo away. Dofla looks pretty quick (he evaded easily Oars attack) , and he still got blown away.

I believe that Crocodile isn't especially slow. Luffy dodged his attacks during Alabasta thanks to plot armor (speed ? :p)

I started to watch the anime again lately , and during the scene when he tried to attack WB with his hook , Luffy prevented the attack and then tried to hit him (in the face or whatever) , which Croc evaded. I can't remember if he did in the manga as well.

Wisshard
October 08, 2010, 04:19 PM
You analysed Alabasta's Crocodile speed.

During MF , Croc looks a lot quicker. I.E , when he prevented Mihawk from getting Luffy. (actually from killing Daz)

Don't forget that he blew Doflamingo away. Dofla looks pretty quick (he evaded easily Oars attack) , and he still got blown away.

I believe that Crocodile isn't especially slow. Luffy dodged his attacks during Alabasta thanks to plot armor (speed ? :p)
It's of course up to personal preference, but rather than chalking it up to plot armor, I prefer explanations that are in keeping with the manga. And in this case, there are three possible ways (that I can think of on the top of my head) to explain Crocodile's performance against Mihawk and Doflamingo at Marinford;
Doflamingo and Mihawk wasn't fighting Crocodile seriously. I find this the most likely explanation, and in Doflamingo's case, this is supported by his attempts to recruit Crocodile.
Crocodile improved massively (outclassing even Luffy's growth since Arabasta (including G2)) in reaction and attack speed during his time in Impel Down. But I find that rather unlikely, considering Crocodile wasn't really allowed by the circumstances to exercise, since he was chained to a wall and very likely tortured regularly during his stay in Impel Down.
Mihawk and Doflamingo doesn't possess CoA. Which I also find highly unlikely, considering Mihawk is the strongest swordsman in the world and Doflamingo seems to be set up as a major antagonist for Luffy in the New World.
I can't remember if he did in the manga as well.
He didn't [1 (http://read.mangashare.com/One-Piece/chapter-557/page013.html)].

MonsterEnvy
October 08, 2010, 04:28 PM
It's of course up to personal preference, but rather than chalking it up to plot armor, I prefer explanations that are in keeping with the manga. And in this case, there are three possible ways (that I can think of on the top of my head) to explain Crocodile's performance against Mihawk and Doflamingo at Marinford;
Doflamingo and Mihawk wasn't fighting Crocodile seriously. I find this the most likely explanation, and in Doflamingo's case, this is supported by his attempts to recruit Crocodile.
Crocodile improved massively (outclassing even Luffy's growth since Arabasta (including G2)) in reaction and attack speed during his time in Impel Down. But I find that rather unlikely, considering Crocodile wasn't really allowed by the circumstances to exercise, since he was chained to a wall and very likely tortured regularly during his stay in Impel Down.
Mihawk and Doflamingo doesn't possess CoA. Which I also find highly unlikely, considering Mihawk is the strongest swordsman in the world and Doflamingo seems to be set up as a major antagonist for Luffy in the New World.
He didn't [1 (http://read.mangashare.com/One-Piece/chapter-557/page013.html)].

you just don't want accsept that Croc is on Mihawk and Doflamings level and Always has been

I doubt Doflamingo has COA or else when Crocs head came off it really would have Doflamingo is already Broken enough as it is

Mihawk does not need to have haki to be Strong he could have gotten there through pure skill

beastboy
October 08, 2010, 04:52 PM
Dofla was totally trolling that war, pissing everyone just for the lulz...
He didn't want to kill Crocodile, he just wanted to have fun, xD!

Mihawk just sliced him so he could get to Luffy, using COA would only stop him even more, since he would encounter a physical body instead of a little bit of sand!

But I do think Crocodile knows Haki... He just didn't find it necessary to fight any of the people he fought till now.

He hasn't good reaction skills nor speed because he doesn't needs it, he can pwn about everybody without that...
He did get owned because of that when Jozz attacked him, but a little bit of help was enough to send jozz flying.

But that doesn't really matters, next time we see him he will be even more bad ass, and dodging Gear 2 Speed like if it was a turtle!

bittman
October 08, 2010, 05:00 PM
you just don't want accsept that Croc is on Mihawk and Doflamings level and Always has been

I doubt Doflamingo has COA or else when Crocs head came off it really would have Doflamingo is already Broken enough as it is

Mihawk does not need to have haki to be Strong he could have gotten there through pure skill

And yet Crocodile fanboys are completely devoid of bias? All I'm able to read here is that Luffy should be able to defeat Mihawk and Doflamingo because they are on Crocs level and Luffy beat Croc?

Everything that gets quoted for "Crocodiles great power" is basically a sword clash. From what I understand here, Crocodile must be on about 5 levels at once since:
Clashed "equally" with Doflamingo
Clashed "equally" with Mihawk
Clashed "equally" with Akainu
Clashed "equally" with Luffy
Got owned by Jozu

So Jozu > Croc, thus Jozu = level 9?

Let's look at each of these "equal clashes" though.


Doflamingo wasn't trying to kill Croc. In fact, he was trying to recruit Croc. Since we haven't seen Doflamingo fight seriously against anything and it's clear he wasn't trying to damage Croc, they cannot be viewed as equal. Combine this with the fact that Doflamingo suffered no damage from the sandstorm and was able to block the hook with a foot like it was nothing, they cannot possibly be viewed on the same level, even if Doflamingo had no haki or didn't know about the water weakness.
Mihawk...well I know I can often overrate the "World's strongest swordsman", but if Croc is equal because he blocked one sword slash, then Mihawk is just a large disappointment. Plus, if Mihawk had shown any real semblence of trying in the entire war Crocodiles metallic hook would be cut into pieces. And I'm saying nothing about haki here, because at the end of the day even if Croc goes around not getting damaged, it doesn't mean he automatically wins. As shocking as this is, logias do have to attack, and no attack Crocodile has would touch Mihawk.
Haha, equal to Akainu. No argument required here, Crocodile is equal to Akainu the same way Mr 3 is equal to Magellan.
We know Luffy is above Crocodile. Give me the luck argument all you want, it was 400 chapters ago. Any character Luffy had a difficult battle with since then should be able to evade and counter Croc with ease.
Jozu makes the case really. Levels are not just about who beat who, but where they generally fit in comparison to EVERYONE else.


But whatever, I can see this debate could go on for some time and if there can be no clear victor it won't be updated on the ladder. Too many people are blinded by haki being the only counter to logias like hitting through intangibility is the entire battle. I spent half the war reminding people that even a haki'ed up Luffy in the war would still be melted, frozen or dodged attempting to take an admiral head on.

beastboy
October 08, 2010, 05:56 PM
^
I Just disagree with one thing, Sables would be able to touch Mihawk, not hurt him tough...

And that third battle was kinda lame, plot wise (Everyone knows it was awesome)...
Crocodile could have used Sables to obliterate him, use that technique he used to (almost) kill him in the 2nd battle, but he just decided to fight hand to hand against Luffy, forgive me but no one wich Luffy could touch (except for Rank 8,9 & 10) would have an easy battle against him if they decided to fight short ranged...!

BlackSword
October 08, 2010, 07:59 PM
And yet Crocodile fanboys are completely devoid of bias? All I'm able to read here is that Luffy should be able to defeat Mihawk and Doflamingo because they are on Crocs level and Luffy beat Croc?

Everything that gets quoted for "Crocodiles great power" is basically a sword clash. From what I understand here, Crocodile must be on about 5 levels at once since:
Clashed "equally" with Doflamingo
Clashed "equally" with Mihawk
Clashed "equally" with Akainu
Clashed "equally" with Luffy
Got owned by Jozu

So Jozu > Croc, thus Jozu = level 9?

Let's look at each of these "equal clashes" though.


Doflamingo wasn't trying to kill Croc. In fact, he was trying to recruit Croc. Since we haven't seen Doflamingo fight seriously against anything and it's clear he wasn't trying to damage Croc, they cannot be viewed as equal. Combine this with the fact that Doflamingo suffered no damage from the sandstorm and was able to block the hook with a foot like it was nothing, they cannot possibly be viewed on the same level, even if Doflamingo had no haki or didn't know about the water weakness.
Mihawk...well I know I can often overrate the "World's strongest swordsman", but if Croc is equal because he blocked one sword slash, then Mihawk is just a large disappointment. Plus, if Mihawk had shown any real semblence of trying in the entire war Crocodiles metallic hook would be cut into pieces. And I'm saying nothing about haki here, because at the end of the day even if Croc goes around not getting damaged, it doesn't mean he automatically wins. As shocking as this is, logias do have to attack, and no attack Crocodile has would touch Mihawk.
Haha, equal to Akainu. No argument required here, Crocodile is equal to Akainu the same way Mr 3 is equal to Magellan.
We know Luffy is above Crocodile. Give me the luck argument all you want, it was 400 chapters ago. Any character Luffy had a difficult battle with since then should be able to evade and counter Croc with ease.
Jozu makes the case really. Levels are not just about who beat who, but where they generally fit in comparison to EVERYONE else.


But whatever, I can see this debate could go on for some time and if there can be no clear victor it won't be updated on the ladder. Too many people are blinded by haki being the only counter to logias like hitting through intangibility is the entire battle. I spent half the war reminding people that even a haki'ed up Luffy in the war would still be melted, frozen or dodged attempting to take an admiral head on.

Crocodile:
Crocodile vs Mihawk: First off Mihawk doesn't go easy when he is in a serious situation... He almost chopped Luffy's arms off...
Crocodile vs Luffy: Luffy could only compete with Crocodile because he had massive experience fighting him and a ready supply of water... Once Aokiji froze the water getting a bunch of water to fight Crocodile would be a pain in the ass...
Crocodile vs Jozu: Your whole 'simple clash' theory goes the same for the Jozu incident... He blind sided Crocodile hitting him once... Which Crocodile got up from with minimal difficulty...

Now all and all vs Admirals and even Jozu/Mihawk it is true that Crocodile would most likely get owned... Thus they are a level higher than him... But seriously anyone level 7 or lower from what we've seen would have a damn hard time beating him... Luffy one because it was a 'Plot' device... Not because Luffy was stronger.... Like has already been stated Luffy has on every arc beat the crap out of someone who is technically stronger than he is... I mean come on even Superman could get raped by a little kid with Kryptonite... Same goes for Crocodile...

St Michael
October 09, 2010, 02:14 AM
Thanks Whissard for your useful post :p

@ Bittman : nobody here is trying to convince you that Croc > DF , Mihawk , Jozu or Aka Inu. He isn't , at best , he could have put a good fight. But I believe that most of the time he would lost (he would lost all the time against the latest mentionned).

But Luffy ? Seriously ? His growth between Alabasta and MF doesn't matter , since he still has no way to efficiently hit Crocodile. He would dodge easier .. but without help or water , he would end up screwed anyway. (remember that even Smoker hit him in G2.)

bittman
October 09, 2010, 03:46 AM
So basically, if I'm reading this right, Luffy beating Crocodile 400 chapters ago proves that Crocodile is stronger?

Ok, I may be appearing to ignore the two defeats Crocodile had over Luffy, but it is like saying Lucchi is stronger than Luffy because Lucchi defeated him the first time he met, and the only reason Luffy is alive is pure luck (water being sucked away, Lucchi throwing him instead of killing him, etc). At the end of the day, once Luffy found a way to abuse Crocodile's weakness (and remember, this ONLY stopped him from using the logia defence), Luffy was shown to be stronger. The same Luffy that only moments before collapsed from exhaustion was able to defeat Crocodile just by having a bit of the weakness on hand (literally).

In the WB War, water was in abundance. If you recall, Aokoji froze everything and Luffy easily found water as they crashed into it. Luffy was able to defeat Crocodile in a country where Crocodile was in his pure element. On the high seas, Crocodile would be infinitely weaker. Simply by being in a storm, or even a half decent mist, Crocodile would be weaker than potentially any Supernova introduced.

Again, you're looking too deeply into the logia defence which is VERY easily broken on Crocodile thanks to his weakness being in abundance in a world which is probably 9/10ths water.

Plus, if you look at Croc's attacks, most people above level 6 would be able to block, evade or counter them with ease. Croc's speed, power and defence (outside of logia intangibility) is all terrible minus the fact that it gives him range, which can be a rare talent, but useless if he can't keep a distance. With logia intangibility, sure his defence is up there with the rest of the logias.

P.S. "Even Smoker hit him in G2" - it was implied Smoker had grown potentially on par with Luffy. Luffy was able to somewhat outrun Smoker in Alabasta, but here in his fastest form he wasn't able to even evade. From what I saw in the war, Smoker's speed and reactions were far above Crocodile, who had only been sitting in a prison for 2-3 months.

P.P.S. Mihawk doesn't go easy? Do we remember Mihawk's first fight? That said, I do know where this train of thought comes from. Mihawk is a difficult character to properly judge the power of as his feats don't particularly match his title.

P.P.P.S. Crocodile didn't get up with minimal difficulty, I'm fairly sure it was heavily implied Doflamingo saved Crocodile from a second huge hit which could have ended the entire game for Crocodile. Doesn't look like he was getting up easily. (http://www.mangareader.net/103-35241-12/one-piece/chapter-560.html)

Anyway, as I said previously, if it's this debatable then don't bother moving him.

beastboy
October 09, 2010, 05:42 AM
I'm laughing, whenever Crocodile is in a discussion it never ends easily...

Bitman, Luffy beat Lucci while they were fighting at their bests, hand to hand in land...
Crocodile got beaten by Luffy because he didn't use his better attacks by some silly reason!

Wisshard
October 09, 2010, 07:31 AM
you just don't want accsept that Croc is on Mihawk and Doflamings level and Always has been
It's not possible, unless Crocodile deliberately allowed Arabasta Luffy to evade his attacks, and to land attacks on him.

However you slice it, Arabasta Crocodile simply hadn't good enough reaction speed to react to Mihawk's attacks or the attack speed to land attacks on Mihawk. Thus, if Crocodile truly was on par with Mihawk (and Doflamingo) during the Marinford, he must have improved tremendously during his time in Impel Down.


I doubt Doflamingo has COA or else when Crocs head came off it really would have Doflamingo is already Broken enough as it is
A very possible explanation is that Doflamingo was playing around; he didn't try to kill Crocodile, or even fought him seriously.


First off Mihawk doesn't go easy when he is in a serious situation... He almost chopped Luffy's arms off...
Mihawk is hard to read, but personally, I'm inclined to believe that there is more to the World's Strongest Swordsman than what he showed during the war.


Crocodile vs Luffy: Luffy could only compete with Crocodile because he had massive experience fighting him and a ready supply of water...
Yes, but Arabasta Luffy was able to keep up with Crocodile's speed; he landed attacks on Crocodile and successfully evaded many of Crocodile's attacks.

Consequently, G2 Luffy (and everyone who match or exceed his combat speed) would dominate Crocodile, unless Crocodile drastically improved his combat speed in Impel Down.


[Jozu] blind sided Crocodile hitting him once...
Jozu didn't blindside Crocodile; Crocodile noticed Jozu before he charged, but still couldn't react to the Brilliant Punk [1 (http://www.mangareader.net/103-35241-11/one-piece/chapter-560.html) (bottom left panels)].



But seriously anyone level 7 or lower from what we've seen would have a damn hard time beating him...
You really think G2 Luffy would have a damn hard time beating Crocodile? Or Lucci, Smoker, Zoro, Sanji, Ivankov, Crocodile, Jinbei, Vista, Shiliew and Sentoumaru?

Even assuming no one of them has CoA, Crocodile has a weakness that is easy to figure out, and barring Shiliew, all of them has shown combat speed that far exceeds Crocodile's.

beastboy
October 09, 2010, 08:59 AM
I don't think it is that easy to figure out Crocodile's weakness....
Its not like everyone has the habit of pouring water on their opponents...

BTW, and this is off topic, shouldn't Gomu Gomu no Baku Baku (when Luffy ate Crocodile) hurt Crocodile!?

chess4
October 09, 2010, 09:15 AM
personally i feel like this thread is pointless. like crocodile said, you never know how abilities will match up.

ivankov is much stronger than mr 3, but mr 3 would have a better chance at betting magellan becaus eof his wax.

enel with would have destroyed rob lucci, but pre timeskip luffy fought tooth and nail to win, but he took out enel because he was his natural enemy.

its all about matchups.....

most of the strongest people in the manga we havent seen go all out, so i think we cant make a excellent hypothesis on everyone fightings ability

Wisshard
October 09, 2010, 09:41 AM
like crocodile said, you never know how abilities will match up.
Indeed, but Haki seemingly level out the play field to an extent, since physical aptitude, martial/DF prowess and Haki matters as much for top tier logias (as well as other DF users) as for people like Zoro and (presumably) Garp.

That being said, as you say, fighting styles and abilities obviously match up differently to each other. But, in order to make good use of such advantageous fighting styles/abilities, you have to have the fighting strength to back it up.


enel with would have destroyed rob lucci
Indeed, since Lucci has no way to harm Enel. But give both basic CoA, and Lucci would treat Enel like G2 Luffy treated Marigold and Sandersonia.

BlackSword
October 09, 2010, 08:12 PM
Just a little update...
Once, we have a serious fight with the Strawhats post-time skip. I will create 2 ranking systems Pre & Post time skip. I may also make a secondary rankings for individual classes of fighters. Example: Swordsman, DF Users, Melee Fighters, ect...
If you have any ideas please feel free to leave them.

Fox666
October 09, 2010, 09:10 PM
You really think G2 Luffy would have a damn hard time beating Crocodile? Or Lucci, Smoker, Zoro, Sanji, Ivankov, Crocodile, Jinbei, Vista, Shiliew and Sentoumaru?

Even assuming no one of them has CoA, Crocodile has a weakness that is easy to figure out, and barring Shiliew, all of them has shown combat speed that far exceeds Crocodile's.Zoro and Sanji are far weaker than Crocodile. I have no idea why do you included them in the list. I doubt they can win even if they fought together.

Crocrodile was playing with Luffy, or just did not take him serious. He managed to sneak through the Moby Dick to attack Whitebeard without any of the Whitebeard pirates noticing. He managed to confront Mihawk and Doflamingo. I just don't see why think that he is slow.

I don't think it is that easy to figure out Crocodile's weakness....
Its not like everyone has the habit of pouring water on their opponents...Not to say that if you use water, you should have an advantage over any Devil Fruit user...

El-Thor
October 09, 2010, 09:15 PM
It's REALLY hard to create an accurate ranking system in OP.

I think ANY logia should be level 8 or higher. Rayleigh should be on the same level as admirals. Kuma should be next to Jozu or Marco. etc. etc.

Fox666
October 09, 2010, 09:31 PM
I would take precaution ranking Rayleigh at the same level of the Admirals. He just seemed unable to handle Kizaru completely. I think as him being slight below.

I would also do the same with Marco. While he can withstand them, it seems that he can't overcome them in power.

Perhaps I like the idea of Whitebeard and Roger first mates being equals?

DEATHBOTT
October 09, 2010, 10:42 PM
inazuma should be in 6.5. he seemed like quite the capable fighter. kuro should be a 1. don krieg a 0.5. helmeppo would be a 2 imo he seemed pretty good. Jango and fullbody would be 1s. and hina a 4. the demon guards of impel down a 4.5. sadichan a 4.

MonsterEnvy
October 09, 2010, 10:45 PM
It's not possible, unless Crocodile deliberately allowed Arabasta Luffy to evade his attacks, and to land attacks on him.

However you slice it, Arabasta Crocodile simply hadn't good enough reaction speed to react to Mihawk's attacks or the attack speed to land attacks on Mihawk. Thus, if Crocodile truly was on par with Mihawk (and Doflamingo) during the Marinford, he must have improved tremendously during his time in Impel Down.


A very possible explanation is that Doflamingo was playing around; he didn't try to kill Crocodile, or even fought him seriously.


Mihawk is hard to read, but personally, I'm inclined to believe that there is more to the World's Strongest Swordsman than what he showed during the war.


Yes, but Arabasta Luffy was able to keep up with Crocodile's speed; he landed attacks on Crocodile and successfully evaded many of Crocodile's attacks.

Consequently, G2 Luffy (and everyone who match or exceed his combat speed) would dominate Crocodile, unless Crocodile drastically improved his combat speed in Impel Down.


Jozu didn't blindside Crocodile; Crocodile noticed Jozu before he charged, but still couldn't react to the Brilliant Punk [1 (http://www.mangareader.net/103-35241-11/one-piece/chapter-560.html) (bottom left panels)].



You really think G2 Luffy would have a damn hard time beating Crocodile? Or Lucci, Smoker, Zoro, Sanji, Ivankov, Crocodile, Jinbei, Vista, Shiliew and Sentoumaru?

Even assuming no one of them has CoA, Crocodile has a weakness that is easy to figure out, and barring Shiliew, all of them has shown combat speed that far exceeds Crocodile's.

Crocodle would crush the entire list you named by trying

he never tried in any of his fights he avoided Luffy's attacks unless they cought him off guard when gear 2 luffy attacked Croc he avoided that too

bittman
October 10, 2010, 01:05 AM
Crocodle would crush the entire list you named by trying

he never tried in any of his fights he avoided Luffy's attacks unless they cought him off guard when gear 2 luffy attacked Croc he avoided that too

Hahaha.

Do you see you're problem here? "Crocodile wasn't trying", so that I say "Oh Luffy wasn't trying" or "Oh, Mihawk wasn't trying"

"<INSERTCHARNAMEHERE> wasn't trying, so he can crush everyone because we can imagine fantastic scenarios of their power."

The best counter to the above is Moria. Moria can one-shot things by cutting their shadows, he should be the most broken character in the world, but it doesn't appear he uses it quite as well as we imagine he could actually use it. (Heck, he keeps using that bloody crap Shadows Asgard move like it's "good").

Show any evidence that Crocodile was not trying in any aforementioned battles (particularly in the WB war) and I'll believe this argument.

@ El-Thor: yeah it can be difficult to rank people properly when we've seen so much more of some, and very little of others. The only beings in One Piece you could probably accurately rank would be the Strawhats, and perhaps the enemies they soundly defeated in comparison to each other. Technically, we haven't seen much of everyone else (Shichibukai, Admirals, Yonkou, Supernovas, etc).

DEATHBOTT
October 10, 2010, 03:16 AM
wapol is a 0.5. drake and hawkins i reckon should be 5.5, they seemed stronger than the other supernovas.

Wisshard
October 10, 2010, 05:02 AM
Zoro and Sanji are far weaker than Crocodile. I have no idea why do you included them in the list. I doubt they can win even if they fought together.
I included Zoro and Sanji because their combat prowess right before the time skip is much higher than Arabasta Luffy, and subsequently, they should have the tools (especially with Asura and Diable Jambe, respectively) to deal with Crocodile until they figure out his weakness (which, for Sanji at least, shouldn't take too long).


Crocrodile was playing with Luffy, or just did not take him serious.
So, basically your argument is that Crocodile deliberately allowed Luffy to dodge his attacks, and hit him?

Bottom line is, by all appearance, Crocodile's combat speed is about on par with Arabasta Luffy.


He managed to sneak through the Moby Dick to attack Whitebeard without any of the Whitebeard pirates noticing.
The Whitebeard commanders were occupied by Admirals, VA's and what not, and fodder will always be fodder.


He managed to confront Mihawk and Doflamingo. I just don't see why think that he is slow.
As I pointed out before, either Doflamingo and Mihawk wasn't fighting seriously, they don't possess CoA or Crocodile improved hell of a lot in combat speed in Impel Down.

I don't see any merit in continuing this debate. I've laid out my reasoning, and why I'm inclined to believe that Mihawk and Doflamingo wasn't fighting seriously rather than the alternatives, and you are free to disagree. :)


he never tried in any of his fights he avoided Luffy's attacks unless they cought him off guard
In their third fight, Crocodile wasn't caught off guard by anything Luffy threw at him; he simply didn't have the reaction speed to comfortably evade all of (Arabasta) Luffy's attacks.


when gear 2 luffy attacked Croc he avoided that too
As I already pointed out, that was anime filler.

Lord Rayleigh
October 10, 2010, 09:09 AM
You really think G2 Luffy would have a damn hard time beating Crocodile? Or Lucci, Smoker, Zoro, Sanji, Ivankov, Crocodile, Jinbei, Vista, Shiliew and Sentoumaru?

Even assuming no one of them has CoA, Crocodile has a weakness that is easy to figure out, and barring Shiliew, all of them has shown combat speed that far exceeds Crocodile's.

Don't lose your mind, Crocodile is not of one the main strongest characters of One Piece but still he is not someone that can easily get beaten, especially by the people you quoted. That's why, even though he had skirmichs against some Whitebeard Pirates, Jozu, Doflamingo, Mihawk and Akainu, he was still standing after the end of the battle of Marineford. Unlike you think, I doubt that anyone can bypass his intangibility power with Haki or know his weakness.

It also seems that you forgot that Crocodile is a dangerous man and can ALSO be a threat to his foe. His sand logia gives him really great powers : very long range attacks such as Desert Spada, and awesome close attacks such as the dehydratation that can beat people in the blink of an eye.

MonsterEnvy
October 10, 2010, 10:27 AM
Hahaha.

Do you see you're problem here? "Crocodile wasn't trying", so that I say "Oh Luffy wasn't trying" or "Oh, Mihawk wasn't trying"

"<INSERTCHARNAMEHERE> wasn't trying, so he can crush everyone because we can imagine fantastic scenarios of their power."

The best counter to the above is Moria. Moria can one-shot things by cutting their shadows, he should be the most broken character in the world, but it doesn't appear he uses it quite as well as we imagine he could actually use it. (Heck, he keeps using that bloody crap Shadows Asgard move like it's "good").

Show any evidence that Crocodile was not trying in any aforementioned battles (particularly in the WB war) and I'll believe this argument.

@ El-Thor: yeah it can be difficult to rank people properly when we've seen so much more of some, and very little of others. The only beings in One Piece you could probably accurately rank would be the Strawhats, and perhaps the enemies they soundly defeated in comparison to each other. Technically, we haven't seen much of everyone else (Shichibukai, Admirals, Yonkou, Supernovas, etc).

time to rephrase he was not trying in the Luffy Fights
Mihawk and Doflamingo were not trying is Wisshards lousy argument about why they could not beat croc

Croc was not trying in the Luffy fights

fight 1 Croc waited around for 2 minutes then Impaled him once the time was up

fight 2 Croc was just dodging attacks instead of Spaming Dessert Espada or Sables to destroy every thing around him and felt like giving Luffy a chance then he got tired of it and sucked every thing Dry inculding Luffy in a few seconds
Fight 3 Croc did not use his powers for gods sake until it was too late he could have used Sables and destroyed the cave at the start of the fight

Wisshard
October 10, 2010, 11:12 AM
Fight 3 Croc did not use his powers for gods sake until it was too late he could have used Sables and destroyed the cave at the start of the fight
Indeed, I share the sentiment that Crocodile would've defeated Luffy in their third round if he had used his sand powers from the get-go. But even so, no matter how you slice it, fact remains that his combat speed was on par with Arabasta Luffy.


It also seems that you forgot that Crocodile is a dangerous man and can ALSO be a threat to his foe. His sand logia gives him really great powers : very long range attacks such as Desert Spada, and awesome close attacks such as the dehydratation that can beat people in the blink of an eye.
Indeed, Crocodile possess very dangerous abilities. But, as I've said repeatedly now, he simply doesn't possess the reaction and attack speed to deal with the people I've listed. Considering if Arabasta Luffy can evade Crocodile's attacks and hit him, than War G2 Luffy can do so in his sleep.

That being said, to be honest, I'm quite surprised that people actually think Crocodile fought a serious Mihawk on equal ground... Considering Crocodile was defeated by Arabasta Luffy, while Mihawk has some very good hype going for him; he was a close rival to Shanks in the past, and he is the World's Strongest Swordsman, and as such, Zoro's dream is to surpass him (for now).
Which suggest, to me, that Mihawk is a real top tier (at least Admiral level), and thus could have stomped Crocodile with more ease than Akainu stomped Jinbei.

MonsterEnvy
October 10, 2010, 12:42 PM
Indeed, I share the sentiment that Crocodile would've defeated Luffy in their third round if he had used his sand powers from the get-go. But even so, no matter how you slice it, fact remains that his combat speed was on par with Arabasta Luffy.


Indeed, Crocodile possess very dangerous abilities. But, as I've said repeatedly now, he simply doesn't possess the reaction and attack speed to deal with the people I've listed. Considering if Arabasta Luffy can evade Crocodile's attacks and hit him, than War G2 Luffy can do so in his sleep.

That being said, to be honest, I'm quite surprised that people actually think Crocodile fought a serious Mihawk on equal ground... Considering Crocodile was defeated by Arabasta Luffy, while Mihawk has some very good hype going for him; he was a close rival to Shanks in the past, and he is the World's Strongest Swordsman, and as such, Zoro's dream is to surpass him (for now).
Which suggest, to me, that Mihawk is a real top tier (at least Admiral level), and thus could have stomped Crocodile with more ease than Akainu stomped Jinbei.

the flaw in your argument is that Mihawk did not Stomp Croc and Mihawk was trying the entire war
besides I would not put Mihawk on admiral level and Kuma is easily Strongest Shichibukai we have seen

Fox666
October 10, 2010, 01:12 PM
So, basically your argument is that Crocodile deliberately allowed Luffy to dodge his attacks, and hit him?

Bottom line is, by all appearance, Crocodile's combat speed is about on par with Arabasta Luffy.Crocodile wasn't playing all the time. But at least most part.

He had all chances to kill Luffy in the first battle. Luffy tried everything against him, and Crocodile just ignored his attacked. Eventually Crocodile got irritated and pierced through Luffy with his hook.

Crocodile could have done what Aokiji did to Luffy. He didn't because he did not take Luffy serious. And talking about Aokiji, he also looked slow during his confront against the Strawhats. And we later saw during Marineford how fast both of them can be when they want to.

As I pointed out before, either Doflamingo and Mihawk wasn't fighting seriously, they don't possess CoA or Crocodile improved hell of a lot in combat speed in Impel Down.

I don't see any merit in continuing this debate. I've laid out my reasoning, and why I'm inclined to believe that Mihawk and Doflamingo wasn't fighting seriously rather than the alternatives, and you are free to disagree. :)So we can choose:

1. Crocodile did not take Luffy serious, and would have defeated him easy if he really wanted;

2. Every opponent of Crocodile during the Marineford war (Doflamingo, Doflamingo again, Mihawk, Akainu...) did not take Crocodile serious, and would have defeated him easy if he really wanted;

What's the more simply choice?

MonsterEnvy
October 10, 2010, 01:54 PM
Crocodile wasn't playing all the time. But at least most part.

He had all chances to kill Luffy in the first battle. Luffy tried everything against him, and Crocodile just ignored his attacked. Eventually Crocodile got irritated and pierced through Luffy with his hook.

Crocodile could have done what Aokiji did to Luffy. He didn't because he did not take Luffy serious. And talking about Aokiji, he also looked slow during his confront against the Strawhats. And we later saw during Marineford how fast both of them can be when they want to.
So we can choose:

1. Crocodile did not take Luffy serious, and would have defeated him easy if he really wanted;

2. Every opponent of Crocodile during the Marineford war (Doflamingo, Doflamingo again, Mihawk, Akainu...) did not take Crocodile serious, and would have defeated him easy if he really wanted;

What's the more simple choice?

Bravo Bravo

Wisshard
October 10, 2010, 02:49 PM
He had all chances to kill Luffy in the first battle. Luffy tried everything against him, and Crocodile just ignored his attacked. Eventually Crocodile got irritated and pierced through Luffy with his hook.
So what? Like I said, no matter how you slice it, Crocodile's combat speed was roughly equal to Arabasta Luffy, who was able to evade his attacks [sand 1 (http://read.mangashare.com/One-Piece/chapter-200/page012.html), hook 2 (http://read.mangashare.com/One-Piece/chapter-205/page007.html)], and hit him [3 (http://read.mangashare.com/One-Piece/chapter-209/page009.html)].


And talking about Aokiji, he also looked slow during his confront against the Strawhats.
Cool, Aokiji didn't go all out when he stomped the Straw Hats. Good find.

The difference is that we obviously saw the limits of Crocodile's combat speed (Arabasta Luffy was able to evade his attacks and land attacks on him), which we didn't in Aokiji's case (since he effortlessly defeated the Monster Trio).


1. Crocodile did not take Luffy serious, and would have defeated him easy if he really wanted
Crocodile sure as hell wasn't fighting to loose; he took Luffy seriously [3 (http://read.mangashare.com/One-Piece/chapter-205/page015.html), 4 (http://read.mangashare.com/One-Piece/chapter-206/page009.html), 5 (http://read.mangashare.com/One-Piece/chapter-209/page012.html), 6 (http://read.mangashare.com/One-Piece/chapter-209/page015.html) etc.] and fought to kill him [7 (http://read.mangashare.com/One-Piece/chapter-204/page017.html)].


2. Every opponent of Crocodile during the Marineford war (Doflamingo, Doflamingo again, Mihawk, Akainu...) did not take Crocodile serious, and would have defeated him easy if he really wanted;
Crocodile fought Akainu together with 14 of Whitebeard's Commander [8 (http://read.mangashare.com/One-Piece/chapter-578/page015.html)], hence I don't think I need to comment on that fight.

It's hardly far-fetched that Doflamingo, carefree and fun-loving as he is, wasn't fighting Crocodile seriously, but was just playing around. Considering his several attempts to recruit Crocodile suggest that he wasn't trying to kill him.
Besides, while Jozu blitzed Crocodile [9 (http://read.mangashare.com/One-Piece/chapter-560/page011.html) (note that Crocodile saw Jozu before he charged), 10 (http://read.mangashare.com/One-Piece/chapter-560/page012.html)], Doflamingo was apparently fast enough to intercept and stop Jozu in his track [11 (http://read.mangashare.com/One-Piece/chapter-560/page013.html)]. Which strongly indicates that Doflamingo is far faster than Crocodile.

And we do not know the circumstances around Crocodile's clash with Mihawk. We only saw Mihawk parry an attack from Crocodile [12 (http://read.mangashare.com/One-Piece/chapter-570/page008.html)], and for all we know, their fight was interrupted a second later by the mass of WB commanders, NW captains etc., centered around Luffy [13 (http://read.mangashare.com/One-Piece/chapter-570/page005.html)].

BlackSword
October 10, 2010, 09:10 PM
Please let us End the Crocodile discussion... It can go on forever without end. Crocodile's current position can't possibly bet that offensive to people... And the fact that it seems about even amount of people think he belongs there and an even amount think he doesn't. He isn't on the same level as Doflamingo/Mihawk or Jozu so I don't understand the purpose of That argument. As for why he is above Luffy it is simply on account of his powers versatility and it's applications. Crocodile will remain in rank 7.
4 Pages of Crocodile Discussion! Lol

MonsterEnvy
October 10, 2010, 09:31 PM
Please let us End the Crocodile discussion... It can go on forever without end. Crocodile's current position can't possibly bet that offensive to people... And the fact that it seems about even amount of people think he belongs there and an even amount think he doesn't. He isn't on the same level as Doflamingo/Mihawk or Jozu so I don't understand the purpose of That argument. As for why he is above Luffy it is simply on account of his powers versatility and it's applications. I will move Crocodile down to the same level as Smoker & Pacifistas 6.5
4 Pages of Crocodile Discussion! Lol

He is on their level Move him up not down

the reason we care is because Croc is the most badass villain in one piece

BlackSword
October 10, 2010, 09:37 PM
You think he should be moved up several other people think he should be moved down... I guess he will stay were he is... No way to make everyone happy with his ranking but I feel that he can keep up with all the people in rank 7...

MonsterEnvy
October 10, 2010, 11:27 PM
You think he should be moved up several other people think he should be moved down... I guess he will stay were he is... No way to make everyone happy with his ranking but I feel that he can keep up with all the people in rank 7...

Actully severl other people agree with me and I don't think anyone really wants him moved down but i will wait till Croc starts showing what he can do after the time skip before Bringing him up again

also you should add Shiki to the list unless you already have i would put him on level 8 or 9

Fox666
October 10, 2010, 11:48 PM
So what? Like I said, no matter how you slice it, Crocodile's combat speed was roughly equal to Arabasta Luffy, who was able to evade his attacks [sand 1 (http://read.mangashare.com/One-Piece/chapter-200/page012.html), hook 2 (http://read.mangashare.com/One-Piece/chapter-205/page007.html)], and hit him [3 (http://read.mangashare.com/One-Piece/chapter-209/page009.html)].


Cool, Aokiji didn't go all out when he stomped the Straw Hats. Good find.

The difference is that we obviously saw the limits of Crocodile's combat speed (Arabasta Luffy was able to evade his attacks and land attacks on him), which we didn't in Aokiji's case (since he effortlessly defeated the Monster Trio).


Crocodile sure as hell wasn't fighting to loose; he took Luffy seriously [3 (http://read.mangashare.com/One-Piece/chapter-205/page015.html), 4 (http://read.mangashare.com/One-Piece/chapter-206/page009.html), 5 (http://read.mangashare.com/One-Piece/chapter-209/page012.html), 6 (http://read.mangashare.com/One-Piece/chapter-209/page015.html) etc.] and fought to kill him [7 (http://read.mangashare.com/One-Piece/chapter-204/page017.html)].Just a note: seven out of the eight of the images you posted are from the 3rd fight beetween Luffy and Crocodile...


Crocodile fought Akainu together with 14 of Whitebeard's Commander [8 (http://read.mangashare.com/One-Piece/chapter-578/page015.html)], hence I don't think I need to comment on that fight.

It's hardly far-fetched that Doflamingo, carefree and fun-loving as he is, wasn't fighting Crocodile seriously, but was just playing around. Considering his several attempts to recruit Crocodile suggest that he wasn't trying to kill him.
Besides, while Jozu blitzed Crocodile [9 (http://read.mangashare.com/One-Piece/chapter-560/page011.html) (note that Crocodile saw Jozu before he charged), 10 (http://read.mangashare.com/One-Piece/chapter-560/page012.html)], Doflamingo was apparently fast enough to intercept and stop Jozu in his track [11 (http://read.mangashare.com/One-Piece/chapter-560/page013.html)]. Which strongly indicates that Doflamingo is far faster than Crocodile.

And we do not know the circumstances around Crocodile's clash with Mihawk. We only saw Mihawk parry an attack from Crocodile [12 (http://read.mangashare.com/One-Piece/chapter-570/page008.html)], and for all we know, their fight was interrupted a second later by the mass of WB commanders, NW captains etc., centered around Luffy [13 (http://read.mangashare.com/One-Piece/chapter-570/page005.html)].So you say I am slicing things up? See, I just need to say that one guy did not take another guy serious (Luffy x Crocodile)... you need to explain why a bunch of guys consecutively did not take Crocodile serious.

You can have tons of explanation for tons of different opponents... I can do the same, I can say that in the last fight Crocodile was running out of time because of the ruins that would crush him, and Luffy is too ignorant to worry about that during the fight.

And a first note: Doflamingo did not intercepted Jozu. He clearly is shown moving his fingers in the preceding panel when he was right at the side of Crocodile. He actually jumped on Jozu's paralyzed back.

And a second note: Marineford war saga did not show a lot of battles. I.e. Mihawk vs Vista, the second encounter of Crocodile and Doflamingo, and Crocodile vs Mihawk. However, that doesn't mean that these battle did not happen (or that the few panels shown tells everything that happened in these battles).

DEATHBOTT
October 11, 2010, 01:47 AM
You think he should be moved up several other people think he should be moved down... I guess he will stay were he is... No way to make everyone happy with his ranking but I feel that he can keep up with all the people in rank 7...

hey bro like your list so far. i mentioned some characters that should imo be on the list except my posts got bogged down with the crocodile arguments.

inazuma - 6.5
kuro - 1
don kreig - 0.5
helmeppo - 2
jango - 1
fullbody - 1
hina - 4
ryuuma - 4.5
oars - 7
demon guards - 4.5
sadi-chan - 4
hannyabal - 4.5
wapol - 0.5
drake and hawkins should be moved up to 5.5 imo seemed stronger than other supernovas but not as strong as kid, law and luffy.
and handcock should be down 7.5 or 7 imo. she seemed around jinbeis level.

bittman
October 11, 2010, 03:21 AM
Just gonna pick out one of these:



hina - 4

Because Luffy dodged her? So, because Luffy dodged her, he can defeat her? Probably same arguement that applies to Crocodile applies here, Hina seems to be able to somewhat make her body intangible and lock people within parts they pass through.

Where would I actually rate her? Well I wouldn't to be honest. She has nothing to compare against other than the fact that her rank is above Smokers (or is it equal now) and that Luffy dodged her attack. Neither if these are defining points, it would be like rating Kizaru after Hawkins was able to avoid being one-shotted.

Rouuuughly agree with the rest. I do believe Hawkins and Drake stand out, and plot-wise I would actually rate them of Kidd and Law's level (in fact, their bounty is larger than Law's if memory serves me correctly, but Law does have a lot of fanboys and screentime in comparison).

Hancock...hmm I can't pick her still. I would agree with her being on Jimbei's level, but I can't say we've honestly seen her fight, and when we have she has held her own quite well.

To me, to rate a fighter I need to see them both in victory (so we know who they are above), and defeat (so we know who they are below). Hancock is thus far lacked a real challenge.

Wisshard
October 11, 2010, 03:35 AM
Just a note: seven out of the eight of the images you posted are from the 3rd fight between Luffy and Crocodile...
Indeed, but even if he wasn't utilizing his sand powers (though he attempted to drain Luffy with his right hand a couple of times), Crocodile still tried to dodge Luffy's attacks to his best abilities, and tried to gut him with his poisonous hook.


So you say I am slicing things up? See, I just need to say that one guy did not take another guy serious (Luffy x Crocodile)... you need to explain why a bunch of guys consecutively did not take Crocodile serious.
Thing is, you greatly cheapen our protagonist achievement when you claim that not only did Luffy have huge advantages against Crocodile in their third fight (liquid, knowledge, survived twice, Crocodile fought in CQC etc.), but Crocodile wasn't even fighting to win in the first place.

Besides, it's not "a bunch of guys", it's only Doflamingo and Mihawk.


I can say that in the last fight Crocodile was running out of time because of the ruins that would crush him
^Crocodile is a sand logia (hence, he wouldn't die if the tomb fell in, and he could just turn it all into sand), and he is hardly the kind of guy who worries anyway.


Doflamingo did not intercepted Jozu. He clearly is shown moving his fingers in the preceding panel when he was right at the side of Crocodile. He actually jumped on Jozu's paralyzed back.
Or Doflamingo moved his fingers when he was on Jozu's back, we don't know. Either way, he was shown to have much better reaction speed than Crocodile.

That being said, I put Mihawk as a top tier, about on par with the Admirals, and Crocodile as weaker than Jinbei (since the latter possess G2+ speed, G3+ strength, and most likely CoA (and CoO)), and since we all saw the contemptuous ease with which Akainu stomped Jinbei, I don't think Crocodile would last very long against a Mihawk who wants to kill him. The gap between top tiers and high tiers is simply that big.

But I'll drop the argument here, as CrownedClown pleads us to.

DEATHBOTT
October 11, 2010, 03:48 AM
Just gonna pick out one of these:



Because Luffy dodged her? So, because Luffy dodged her, he can defeat her? Probably same arguement that applies to Crocodile applies here, Hina seems to be able to somewhat make her body intangible and lock people within parts they pass through.

Where would I actually rate her? Well I wouldn't to be honest. She has nothing to compare against other than the fact that her rank is above Smokers (or is it equal now) and that Luffy dodged her attack. Neither if these are defining points, it would be like rating Kizaru after Hawkins was able to avoid being one-shotted.

Rouuuughly agree with the rest. I do believe Hawkins and Drake stand out, and plot-wise I would actually rate them of Kidd and Law's level (in fact, their bounty is larger than Law's if memory serves me correctly, but Law does have a lot of fanboys and screentime in comparison).

Hancock...hmm I can't pick her still. I would agree with her being on Jimbei's level, but I can't say we've honestly seen her fight, and when we have she has held her own quite well.

To me, to rate a fighter I need to see them both in victory (so we know who they are above), and defeat (so we know who they are below). Hancock is thus far lacked a real challenge.

hina used to be the same rank as smoker but then he got promoted to commodore. she couldnt even follow luffys speed, if he had attacked her and not just run away she would have been beaten imo.

i know drake has a higher bounty than law but i dont think hawkins does.
[hr]
and you guys enough with the crocodile crap. op said he is not changeing his rank until more evidence is made available, so take it to another thread.

DutchPhoenix
October 11, 2010, 07:58 AM
Why is mihawk, who is a greater swordsman then shanks, 2 ranks below shanks.

Fandomism i think lol


Rankings:
Level 10: (in their prime WhiteBeard, Gol D. Roger)
Level 9.5: (prime Garp , Sengoku) , Mihawk , Rayleigh (in his prime)
Level 9: Akainu, Kizaru, Aokiji & Shanks and other younko
Level 8.5: Garp, Rayleigh , Sengoku
Level 8: Jozu,Marco, Vista Kuma(Not Pacifista), Doflamingo, Hancock, Beckman, BlackBeard, Ivankov, Magellan, Ace
Level 7.5: , Sentoumaru , shiryuu
Level 7: Vice Admirals, Crocodile, Jimbei,
Level 6.5: Smoker, Pacafista, Enel
Level 6: Luffy (Pre-Time Skip), Rob Lucci, T. Law, A. Kidd, Moria , Zoro(pre-time skip)
Level 5: killer, Sanji, Supernova's
Level 4: Daz Bones, Brook, Franky, Robin
Level 3: Taishigi, , Bon Kurea, Nami, Chopper, Usopp,
Level 2: Bellamy & Arlong , coby & helmeppo
Level 1: Duvall, Buggy, Galdino

MonsterEnvy
October 11, 2010, 01:07 PM
hey bro like your list so far. i mentioned some characters that should imo be on the list except my posts got bogged down with the crocodile arguments.

inazuma - 6.5
kuro - 1
don kreig - 0.5
helmeppo - 2
jango - 1
fullbody - 1
hina - 4
ryuuma - 4.5
oars - 7
demon guards - 4.5
sadi-chan - 4
hannyabal - 4.5
wapol - 0.5
drake and hawkins should be moved up to 5.5 imo seemed stronger than other supernovas but not as strong as kid, law and luffy.
and handcock should be down 7.5 or 7 imo. she seemed around jinbeis level.

Hannibel is Probley a 5.5 while he could not beat Luffy
Luffy really was not Making any Progross in beating him as the dude would not stay down

Sadi-chan was fighting well with Ivankov and was said to be Stronger then the 4 demon guards combined

Hawkins and Drake are Problley Stronger then Law and should be on the same level as them as they were having no problems in the new world
[hr]

Why is mihawk, who is a greater swordsman then shanks, 2 ranks below shanks.

Fandomism i think lol


Rankings:
Level 10: (in their prime WhiteBeard, Gol D. Roger)
Level 9.5: (prime Garp , Sengoku) , Mihawk , Rayleigh (in his prime)
Level 9: Akainu, Kizaru, Aokiji & Shanks and other younko
Level 8.5: Garp, Rayleigh , Sengoku
Level 8: Jozu,Marco, Vista Kuma(Not Pacifista), Doflamingo, Hancock, Beckman, BlackBeard, Ivankov, Magellan, Ace
Level 7.5: , Sentoumaru , shiryuu
Level 7: Vice Admirals, Crocodile, Jimbei,
Level 6.5: Smoker, Pacafista, Enel
Level 6: Luffy (Pre-Time Skip), Rob Lucci, T. Law, A. Kidd, Moria , Zoro(pre-time skip)
Level 5: killer, Sanji, Supernova's
Level 4: Daz Bones, Brook, Franky, Robin
Level 3: Taishigi, , Bon Kurea, Nami, Chopper, Usopp,
Level 2: Bellamy & Arlong , coby & helmeppo
Level 1: Duvall, Buggy, Galdino
Actully i think its your Fandonism because there is no way Mihawk is the Strongest Living person in one Piece

he is below Shanks Because Shanks is a Haki Master and he was Probley much worse with Haki 10 years ago the last time he fought Mihawk then now while Mihawk has shown no signs of Haki

hina used to be the same rank as smoker but then he got promoted to commodore. she couldnt even follow luffys speed, if he had attacked her and not just run away she would have been beaten imo.

i know drake has a higher bounty than law but i dont think hawkins does.
<hr noshade size="1">
and you guys enough with the crocodile crap. op said he is not changeing his rank until more evidence is made available, so take it to another thread.

Hawkins has the 3rd highest supernova bounty and is Probley stronger then Law

all future Croc debata can go to my Mihawk vs Crocodile Thread

DutchPhoenix
October 11, 2010, 02:08 PM
he is below Shanks Because Shanks is a Haki Master and he was Probley much worse with Haki 10 years ago the last time he fought Mihawk then now while Mihawk has shown no signs of Haki


Go tell oda that, he stated mihawk as most powerfull swordsman so he is, if you disagree, send a letter to oda, the write of this manga.

ps: mihawk showed great mastery of observation haki.
who knows what else he is capable off ;)

St Michael
October 11, 2010, 02:25 PM
Go tell oda that, he stated mihawk as most powerfull swordsman so he is, if you disagree, send a letter to oda, the write of this manga.

Déjà vu ..


ps: mihawk showed great mastery of observation haki.
who knows what else he is capable off ;)

Where ? I don't remember something like that.

beastboy
October 11, 2010, 03:19 PM
C'mon, Crocodile is a big (?), period!

Let's wait for the Post-TS ranks!

MonsterEnvy
October 11, 2010, 03:24 PM
he is below Shanks Because Shanks is a Haki Master and he was Probley much worse with Haki 10 years ago the last time he fought Mihawk then now while Mihawk has shown no signs of Haki


Go tell oda that, he stated mihawk as most powerfull swordsman so he is, if you disagree, send a letter to oda, the write of this manga.

ps: mihawk showed great mastery of observation haki.
who knows what else he is capable off ;)

that does not counter my argurment at all
Mihawk has never shown any signs of Haki and was on Shanks level 10 years (now 12) before now when Shanks lost his Arm

Shanks may not be counted as a swords men and Probley uses a fighting based on Haki which he is no doubt better at now as back then his Haki could Scare a weak seaking away now it Makes Whitebeard crew members faint

DARK
October 11, 2010, 03:36 PM
I still don't know why Hancock is at Level 8.

You seem to be suggesting that she is at the same league as Mihawk or Blackbeard, that she is able to defeat the likes of Magellan/Enel/Ace in battle (even with Haki).

I assume you placed her this high because of her Mero Mero abilities. It doesn't work on everybody and those that are either battle tested or distracted through pain can resist it. For now, I would say that it's better to put her at Level 7.5.

She was able to defeat Smoker with her Kuja haki, but we haven't seen her fight against the other Shichibukai or even the likes of Magellan and Shiryuu. From what we have seen of her skill, Hancock seems to be inferior to the other Shichibukai. I don't think that she is any more adept in battle than Luffy's other primary allies (i.e. Jinbei, Ivankov) in the war.

We also can't say that just because Hancock has Haoushoku Haki and was able to damage a Logia user, that she is able to defeat some other Logia users in battle (especially Enel). Enel is inexperienced but his abilities are not to be underestimated with.

Fox666
October 11, 2010, 06:35 PM
I don't see any reason to say that Hancock is weaker than the other Shichibukai. And I think you are underestimating her power when you say that it "doesn't work on everyone" or that "someone distracted through pain can resist it".

First, Luffy is probably the only being on earth that can is unaffected by it. It not just works on woman too, but also works on Den Den Mushi, meaning that probably even Chopper would be affected.

Second, it's not that simply to inflict damage to yourself. Momonga is a swordman, so transpassing your hand with a knife is not the most safe strategy. Not to say that you can't just keep using that to espace the effect or you will commit suicide. You got my point.

But I'll drop the argument here, as CrownedClown pleads us toAgree, sorry for my insistence.

BlackSword
October 11, 2010, 07:20 PM
Okay, so I'll start adding the Supernova's individually and some of the other characters people suggested...

Randoms:
Inazuma - 6.5 You really think Inazuma is on the same level as smoker?
Helmeppo - 2
Hina - 4
Ryuuma - 4.5
Oars - 6.5 (I ranked Oars at 6.5 He was just really big imo.)
Demon Guards - 4.5
Sadi-chan - 4 (She got tied up bondage style after fighting Ivankov... She became the submissive!)
Hannyabal - 4.5 (I agree with that ranking... Luffy eventually knocked him out... Dude was just persistent...)
Wapol - I don't even think he should have a rank... He kinda gets owned without much difficulty...
kuro - 1 <--- How is it that Kuro is above Don Kreig? He only knocked his boss out after Luffy almost beat him to death... And it was a surprise attack...
don kreig - 0.5 <--- Sure...

Supernovas:
Basil Hawkins - 6.5?
XDrake - 6.5?
Kidd - 6.5?
Scratchman Apoo - 6?
Jewelery Bonney - 4.5?
Killer - 5?
Capone Bege - 4.5?
Urouge - 5?

MonsterEnvy
October 11, 2010, 07:52 PM
Okay, so I'll start adding the Supernova's individually and some of the other characters people suggested...

Randoms:
Inazuma - 6.5 You really think Inazuma is on the same level as smoker?
Helmeppo - 2
Hina - 4
Ryuuma - 4.5
Oars - 6.5 (I ranked Oars at 6.5 He was just really big imo.)
Demon Guards - 4.5
Sadi-chan - 4 (She got tied up bondage style after fighting Ivankov... She became the submissive!)
Hannyabal - 4.5 (I agree with that ranking... Luffy eventually knocked him out... Dude was just persistent...)
Wapol - I don't even think he should have a rank... He kinda gets owned without much difficulty...
kuro - 1 <--- How is it that Kuro is above Don Kreig? He only knocked his boss out after Luffy almost beat him to death... And it was a surprise attack...
don kreig - 0.5 <--- Sure...

Supernovas:
Basil Hawkins - 6.5?
XDrake - 6.5?
Kidd - 6.5?
Scratchman Apoo - 6?
Jewelery Bonney - 4.5?
Killer - 5?
Capone Bege - 4.5?
Urouge - 5?

Luffy did not Knock Hyannibel out every time Luffy hit him he got back up BlackBeard Knocked him out

Sadichan was fighting on par with Iva for a while and was said to be Stronger then the 4 demon guards combined same with Hyannibel

Shiki is canon add him too Level 8,9 or inbetween i would put him at

DutchPhoenix
October 11, 2010, 08:07 PM
Déjà vu ..



Where ? I don't remember something like that.

http://www.mangareader.net/103-36562-3/one-piece/chapter-561.html


Mihawk wasnt the worlds greatest swordsman 12 years ago either.
you guys rly think shanks isnt a swordsman? ahaha xD
come on, just coz the guy got amazing haki, doesnt mean he can beat mihawk.

If shanks could, he would have made mihawk being stated as second best swordsman of this world :P

Plus Oda stated him as the worlds best, that should be enough to COUNTER any ''argument'' xD

BlackSword
October 11, 2010, 09:09 PM
Shiki is a Movie character and will not be added to the list... I've stated this several times... Movie/Filler characters will not be added to the list for the reason that there are tons of them and they will most likely not make a reappearance... Therefore there is no purpose in ranking them...

DEATHBOTT
October 11, 2010, 10:12 PM
Why is mihawk, who is a greater swordsman then shanks, 2 ranks below shanks.

Fandomism i think lol


Rankings:
Level 10: (in their prime WhiteBeard, Gol D. Roger)
Level 9.5: (prime Garp , Sengoku) , Mihawk , Rayleigh (in his prime)
Level 9: Akainu, Kizaru, Aokiji & Shanks and other younko
Level 8.5: Garp, Rayleigh , Sengoku
Level 8: Jozu,Marco, Vista Kuma(Not Pacifista), Doflamingo, Hancock, Beckman, BlackBeard, Ivankov, Magellan, Ace
Level 7.5: , Sentoumaru , shiryuu
Level 7: Vice Admirals, Crocodile, Jimbei,
Level 6.5: Smoker, Pacafista, Enel
Level 6: Luffy (Pre-Time Skip), Rob Lucci, T. Law, A. Kidd, Moria , Zoro(pre-time skip)
Level 5: killer, Sanji, Supernova's
Level 4: Daz Bones, Brook, Franky, Robin
Level 3: Taishigi, , Bon Kurea, Nami, Chopper, Usopp,
Level 2: Bellamy & Arlong , coby & helmeppo
Level 1: Duvall, Buggy, Galdino

your fangirlism is blinding you.
ps this is all in the shanks v mihawk thread but anyway

1. shanks may not give a shit about the title.
2. he may not be purly a swordsmen
3. him being a yonkou(1 of the 4 strongest pirates of the new world) may be seen as out waying mihawks title. could go either way.
4. he may have a greater capacity for haki than mihawk. We know he is one of the 1 in a million users of coc haki.

i think its best if they stay where they are. op said that people may be able to beat others within 1 rank of them so its a reasonable gap of 0.5.
[hr]

Hannibel is Probley a 5.5 while he could not beat Luffy
Luffy really was not Making any Progross in beating him as the dude would not stay down

Sadi-chan was fighting well with Ivankov and was said to be Stronger then the 4 demon guards combined

Hawkins and Drake are Problley Stronger then Law and should be on the same level as them as they were having no problems in the new world



Actully i think its your Fandonism because there is no way Mihawk is the Strongest Living person in one Piece

he is below Shanks Because Shanks is a Haki Master and he was Probley much worse with Haki 10 years ago the last time he fought Mihawk then now while Mihawk has shown no signs of Haki


Hawkins has the 3rd highest supernova bounty and is Probley stronger then Law

all future Croc debata can go to my Mihawk vs Crocodile Thread

i don't know about hannaybel. he may be resilient but wasnt luffy not even useing gear 2? i can't remember. i dont think he would be able to beat any of the supernovas so i think 5 pretty good for him.

your right didnt remember his bounty. i agree with you drake and hawkins should be on there level of 6. i think that law is stronger though but because of his laid back personality he doesnt have a bigger bounty. he also seems like a planner looking at the bigger picture. thats just my opinion though.

i cant remember it saying she was as strong as the 4 demon gaurds combined. i would put her as a 5.5 or a 6 then.
[hr]

he is below Shanks Because Shanks is a Haki Master and he was Probley much worse with Haki 10 years ago the last time he fought Mihawk then now while Mihawk has shown no signs of Haki


Go tell oda that, he stated mihawk as most powerfull swordsman so he is, if you disagree, send a letter to oda, the write of this manga.

ps: mihawk showed great mastery of observation haki.
who knows what else he is capable off ;)

has oda said shanks is a swordsmen? no. so its not set in stone yet.

he showed that he has good eyesight as his nickname implies. maybe has some level of coo haki but since its not confirmed we should just wait.
[hr]
i think jozu should be a 7.5 and hancock a 7.

BlackSword
October 11, 2010, 11:10 PM
Furthermore Shanks and Mihawk haven't fought since before the beginning of the One Piece series... And from what we were told Shanks & Mihawk fought on par with one another... We will have to wait and see an reevaluate one we have more information...

Wisshard
October 12, 2010, 03:20 AM
[Shanks] Probley uses a fighting based on Haki

[Shanks] may have a greater capacity for haki than mihawk. We know he is one of the 1 in a million users of coc haki.
Views on Haki obviously varies indevidually at this point, since we have seen rather little of it. But as I have to come to view it, Haki is a suppliment, not a fighting style, and is as much apart of a fighters basic overall combat prowess as physical speed, natural insight or physical attack power (etc.).



I don't see any reason to say that Hancock is weaker than the other Shichibukai.
Personally, I expect Hancock to play her role rather late in the story, and in that perspective, her hype (Sengoku's words, her King's Haki) would suggest that she belongs to the higher echelon of the Shichibuka. Perhaps weaker than Mihawk and Doflamingo, but stronger than/on par with Bartholomew.


And I think you are underestimating her power when you say that it "doesn't work on everyone" or that "someone distracted through pain can resist it".
To be fair, even though Whitebeard was a horny bastard (he did like his nurses young and pretty ;)), I don't think Hancock would've been able to petrify him with a glance.

The likely explanation is that one can defend against Devil Fruit induced abilities (such as Hancock's petrification) with COA, like how the Admirals defended the execution platform from Whitebeard's quake.

That, of course, doesn't mean that everyone who has CoA are invulnerable to Hancock's petrification, only that they have the tool to defend against it (i.e. a sword can be used to parry Mihawk's attacks, but that doesn't necessarily mean that everyone who has a sword can parry his attacks).

St Michael
October 12, 2010, 03:24 AM
Supernovas:
Basil Hawkins - 6.5?
XDrake - 6.5?
Kidd - 6.5?
Scratchman Apoo - 6?
Jewelery Bonney - 4.5?
Killer - 5?
Capone Bege - 4.5?
Urouge - 5?

Ok I would rank them like this :

Hawkins : 1 fight , 1 loss. But against an admiral. Doesn't look weaker than the 3 "big" (in screentime) supernova. So 6.
Drake : Has the same difficulty against a pacifista that the SH. He seems rather important for the plot (I bet he will eventually) , so he has to be strong. Plus cool fruit. 6 too. 5.5 at least.
Kidd and Law : The plot wants them at the same rank than Luffy.
Killer : same rank than Zoro. 5 if I remember correctly.
Boney : Dunno. Really she is unpredictable. She's weaker than the BB pirates. Ok , as the other SN I guess. I'ld put her at 5 .. but I am not that convinced.
Apoo : Didn't impress me. He took a long time to hit Kizaru. I'ld put him around 4.5.
Urouge : Raw force. Plus even rawer force. 4 at best.
Capone : Alone (without his crew) , from that we have seen. It's the weakest. 3. At best :p
Beppo : A kung fu adept talking polar bear. In a orange suit. Too awesome to be ranked below 8.

smoker559
October 12, 2010, 07:04 AM
Heres what I think. I rank each character when they were at their strongest point with the exception of Luffy and his sudden burst of power. And before time skip.

Level 10: WhiteBeard, Gol D. Roger, Garp, Sengoku
Level 9.5: Akainu, Kizaru, Aokiji, Shanks, Rayleigh
Level 9: Marco, Beckman, Mihawk
Level 8.5: Doflamingo, Magellan, Enel, Ace
Level 8: Jozu, Kuma, Ivankov, Jimbei, Sentoumaru
Level 7.5: Hancock, Crocodile, Vista, Moria
Level 7: Vice Admirals, Smoker, Pacafista
Level 6.5: Hawkins, Luffy , Kidd, Law, Drake
Level 6: Rob Lucci, Apoo, Killer, Zoro

Ok, Garp and Sengoku should be at 10 because Garp would chase Rogers around and I dont think Garp is foolish enough to chase something he cant catch. Mihawk's title as world strongest swordsman should have some meaning. He fought evenly with Shanks 10 years ago and it wouldnt be fair to say only Shanks get stronger. The next big jump i did was Enel and Magellan. Their DF is too powerful. I dont want to add BB and his crew just yet. Too unpredictable. And I dont want to do level 5 and below. Its too tedious.

Wisshard
October 12, 2010, 07:37 AM
I realize that my ranking is quite different from the majority here, but I figured I'd put it out there... Anyhow, here's how I'd rank their overall combat prowess;

Level 10: Gol D. Roger (and Prime Whitebeard)
Level 9.5: Whitebeard
Level 9: Akainu, Aokiji, Kizaru, Mihawk, Marco, Shanks
Level 8.7: Rayleigh, Garp, Sengoku, Beckman
Level 8.4: Jozu, Vista, Doflamingo
Level 8: Strongest Vice Admirals, Bartholomew, Blackbeard, Hancock,
Level 7.5: Magellan, Shiryuu
Level 7: Ace, Sentoumaru
Level 6.5: Average Vice Admirals, Jinbei, Ivankov
Level 5.5: Pacifista’s, Moria, Enel, Kidd, Law
Level 5: Weakest Vice Admirals, X.Drake, Hawkins,
Level 4.5: Luffy, Smoker, Crocodile

Post-time skip Luffy, Kidd and Law is probably at level 7 or 7.5. I rank the more prominent Supernovas higher than Luffy pre-time skip because I think Luffy should have had a bigger growth during the time skip (since he received intense training from the late Pirate King’s “Partner” himself) and I think Kidd and Law (at least) will be comparable in strength to Luffy after the time skip.

MonsterEnvy
October 12, 2010, 10:44 AM
http://www.mangareader.net/103-36562-3/one-piece/chapter-561.html


Mihawk wasnt the worlds greatest swordsman 12 years ago either.
you guys rly think shanks isnt a swordsman? ahaha xD
come on, just coz the guy got amazing haki, doesnt mean he can beat mihawk.

If shanks could, he would have made mihawk being stated as second best swordsman of this world :P

Plus Oda stated him as the worlds best, that should be enough to COUNTER any ''argument'' xD
nothing said that Shanks is a swords men and they fought on par 12 years ago and shanks may relly on Haki for fights so your wrong

Shiki is a Movie character and will not be added to the list... I've stated this several times... Movie/Filler characters will not be added to the list for the reason that there are tons of them and they will most likely not make a reappearance... Therefore there is no purpose in ranking them...
Shiki is a canon character who appeared in the Manga Oda was going to have an arc with him but dicided to use him for the movie when he was asked to write the script for the 10th movie

he is the only Movie character then anyone would care about anyway

your fangirlism is blinding you.
ps this is all in the shanks v mihawk thread but anyway

1. shanks may not give a shit about the title.
2. he may not be purly a swordsmen
3. him being a yonkou(1 of the 4 strongest pirates of the new world) may be seen as out waying mihawks title. could go either way.
4. he may have a greater capacity for haki than mihawk. We know he is one of the 1 in a million users of coc haki.

i think its best if they stay where they are. op said that people may be able to beat others within 1 rank of them so its a reasonable gap of 0.5.
<hr noshade size="1">


i don't know about hannaybel. he may be resilient but wasnt luffy not even useing gear 2? i can't remember. i dont think he would be able to beat any of the supernovas so i think 5 pretty good for him.

your right didnt remember his bounty. i agree with you drake and hawkins should be on there level of 6. i think that law is stronger though but because of his laid back personality he doesnt have a bigger bounty. he also seems like a planner looking at the bigger picture. thats just my opinion though.

i cant remember it saying she was as strong as the 4 demon gaurds combined. i would put her as a 5.5 or a 6 then.
<hr noshade size="1">


has oda said shanks is a swordsmen? no. so its not set in stone yet.

he showed that he has good eyesight as his nickname implies. maybe has some level of coo haki but since its not confirmed we should just wait.
<hr noshade size="1">
i think jozu should be a 7.5 and hancock a 7.
Luffy needed Gear 2 to overpower Hyannibel and Hyannibel was showing no signs of going down until Black beard fell on him and he was also said to be stronger then the 4 demon guards combined same as sadi-chan

I realize that my ranking is quite different from the majority here, but I figured I'd put it out there... Anyhow, here's how I'd rank their overall combat prowess;

Level 10: Gol D. Roger (and Prime Whitebeard)
Level 9.5: Whitebeard
Level 9: Akainu, Aokiji, Kizaru, Mihawk, Marco, Shanks
Level 8.7: Rayleigh, Garp, Sengoku, Beckman
Level 8.4: Jozu, Vista, Doflamingo
Level 8: Strongest Vice Admirals, Bartholomew, Blackbeard, Hancock,
Level 7.5: Magellan, Shiryuu
Level 7: Ace, Sentoumaru
Level 6.5: Average Vice Admirals, Jinbei, Ivankov
Level 5.5: Pacifista’s, Moria, Enel, Kidd, Law
Level 5: Weakest Vice Admirals, X.Drake, Hawkins,
Level 4.5: Luffy, Smoker, Crocodile

Post-time skip Luffy, Kidd and Law is probably at level 7 or 7.5. I rank the more prominent Supernovas higher than Luffy pre-time skip because I think Luffy should have had a bigger growth during the time skip (since he received intense training from the late Pirate King’s “Partner” himself) and I think Kidd and Law (at least) will be comparable in strength to Luffy after the time skip.

okay Garp and Sengoku are stronger then Mihawk and the admirals and Kuma is stronger then Mihawk

Crocodile is is on level 8 or 8.4 because he is way stronger then everyone you named that was above him on the list

Croc can just use Sables no one has been show to be able to dodge Sables or Over power Spada luffy can only just dodge Spada and if Croc felt like spaming it you will die sorry for bring up Crocodile again but that just made me mad

beastboy
October 12, 2010, 11:26 AM
To the Mihawk>Shanks I guess there is a good quote that goes in those lines:
"Owning a Sword does not make you a swordsman!"

So stop saying Shanks is a Swordsman... and even if he is (wich I think he is) its not like he would go hunting Mihawk for the title... he has enough name as a Yonkou! And he does not care about titles... !

But while not being stronger than Mihawk, I think he is clearly above Crocodile, he owned Zoro with a necklace, while Crocodile couldn't beat Luffy in the third fight (do you really think that after three fights Zoro would have lost?)

Schabrak
October 12, 2010, 11:47 AM
And there I was thinking that One Piece would never fall down the path of DBZ power levels. That's one of the most annoying and childish things about manga/anime IHMO. It should have stayed there, since we got official data from Toriyama back than.

Haven't we all learned from 600 chapters, that strength and skill alone wont ensure one's victory. It's about endurance, DF dis-/advantages, ones will to fight.

Please don't repeat the whole Shanks/Mihawk talk in here, while he we have dozens of pages worth of dicussion in their own thread (http://mangahelpers.com/forum/showthread.php?p=2016486&highlight=Shanks+vs+Mihawk#post2016486). They competed with swords in the past, shouldn't it be obvious that both are swordsman now too. Oda never gave a hint that Haki would ever be more than a supplementary skill. I also have to disagree about putting all vice-admirals on one level, since we've already seen that they aren't all equal in strength/power and ability.

zelllogan
October 12, 2010, 12:32 PM
Crocodile is like Hitsugaya Toushiro: a fan & author favourite. This kind of character is very hard to rank because always evolving (and often without logic ...).


And there I was thinking that One Piece would never fall down the path of DBZ power levels. That's one of the most annoying and childish things about manga/anime IHMO. It should have stayed there, since we got official data from Toriyama back than.
Still fun to discuss ...

MonsterEnvy
October 12, 2010, 12:33 PM
To the Mihawk>Shanks I guess there is a good quote that goes in those lines:
"Owning a Sword does not make you a swordsman!"

So stop saying Shanks is a Swordsman... and even if he is (wich I think he is) its not like he would go hunting Mihawk for the title... he has enough name as a Yonkou! And he does not care about titles... !

But while not being stronger than Mihawk, I think he is clearly above Crocodile, he owned Zoro with a necklace, while Crocodile couldn't beat Luffy in the third fight (do you really think that after three fights Zoro would have lost?)

Croc did not use his powers in the 3rd fight and Croc owned Luffy in the 1st fight just as badly as Mihawk owned Zoro and Luffy was stronger then Mihawk fight Zoro at Alabasta so Croc's victory has more substance

also enough Croc discution just go to the Croc vs Mihawk thread to debate it

ocajavati
October 12, 2010, 12:35 PM
Why is Ace ranked higher than Vista? Vista was at least on par with Mihawk, to an extend, and was amongst the two commanders to launch an immediate strike against Akainu.

I doubt Ace would fair as well against Mihawk.

Jozu isn't really weaker than Admirals. He was fighting on equal grounds until Marco was down.

Oh, and Shiki is a terrible character. Still not sure how someone who was once considered to hold similar standing with WB & Roger got beaten by Luffy (weak).

beastboy
October 12, 2010, 12:36 PM
Wow, I'm sorry, I had 2 Tabs open, and that post was meant to be in the Crocodile vs Mihawk, not here!

MonsterEnvy
October 12, 2010, 01:00 PM
Why is Ace ranked higher than Vista? Vista was at least on par with Mihawk, to an extend, and was amongst the two commanders to launch an immediate strike against Akainu.

I doubt Ace would fair as well against Mihawk.

Jozu isn't really weaker than Admirals. He was fighting on equal grounds until Marco was down.

Oh, and Shiki is a terrible character. Still not sure how someone who was once considered to hold similar standing with WB & Roger got beaten by Luffy (weak).

Ace might fair as well agenist Mihawk if he can't use CoA haki hell he would probley beat him

Shiki if the only reason you don't like Shiki is because he lost to Luffy thats kind of stupid

it took both Sengoku and Garb (in their Primes) and a whole lot of damage to marineford to put him in impel down were he was the first one to escape he fought to a draw with Rodger and he was supposed to be name dropped by Shanks and Whitebeard during there meeting

Shiki also domminated Luffy in the fight ifact if Luffy did not have Billy he would not not have been able to touch Shiki

Shiki lost do to lack of foresight he had Luffy on the ropes and and could have just put him in water orb when ever he wanted (hell that would beat any devil fruit user) but released him and wanted to taunt him more even though he could have won there

he could have taken luffy down again when he put his leg in the cloud or avoided it but thought the lighting was going to kill Luffy. if he had know that Luffy was uneffected by Lightning he could have just put him back in the water orb till he died this time

Shiki is strong and should go on level 8 9 or inbettween

Croc should also be a level 8 he can just use the verson of sables that drain water and Break steel as no one can avoid sables and that would take anyone out

BlackSword
October 12, 2010, 01:19 PM
Okay... we are randomly arguing for no reason... The current discussion is the ranking of the supernova's... Only one person has given a decent post and stated reasons why they should be ranked they way he suggested.
The argument of Shanks/Mihawk has its own thread please take the discussion there. The Crocodile discussion has been going on for roughly 5 pages... Your not going to come up with some crushing new evidence that says Crocodile is a god or a scrub so please stop discussing that aswell...

To all of you that come in here just to say how you dislike this thread or that it is a stupid idea... I have a crushing surprise for you... Your mouse brought you here... In the future go elsewhere it, I didn't force you to come here or force your eyes to read this thread. I'm not trying to make a 'Dragon Ballz' Ranking system that says this amount of power can beat A and this amount of power can beat B... If you read my original post it says just that... So take your annoying complaining elsewhere...

Furthermore I have stated on multiple occasions WE WILL NOT RANK FILLER/MOVIE CHARACTERS. For the obvious reason of they are outside of the main plot and serve no purpose in this ranking system.

CURRENT TOPIC:
Supernovas & Random side characters and their ranks.


Randoms:
Inazuma - 6 You really think Inazuma is on the same level as smoker?
Helmeppo - 2
Hina - 4
Ryuuma - 4.5
Oars - 6 (I ranked Oars at 6.5 He was just really big imo.)
Demon Guards - 3.5
Sadi-chan - 4 (She got tied up bondage style after fighting Ivankov... She became the submissive!)
Hannyabal - 4.5 (I agree with that ranking...)
Wapol - I don't even think he should have a rank... He kinda gets owned without much difficulty...
kuro - 1 <--- How is it that Kuro is above Don Kreig? He only knocked his boss out after Luffy almost beat him to death... And it was a surprise attack...
don kreig - 0.5 <--- Sure...

Supernovas:
Basil Hawkins - 6
XDrake - 6
Kidd - 6
Scratchman Apoo - 4.5?
Jewelery Bonney - 4.5?
Killer - 5?
Capone Bege - 3
Urouge - 4.5


Ok I would rank them like this :

Hawkins : 1 fight , 1 loss. But against an admiral. Doesn't look weaker than the 3 "big" (in screentime) supernova. So 6.
Drake : Has the same difficulty against a pacifista that the SH. He seems rather important for the plot (I bet he will eventually) , so he has to be strong. Plus cool fruit. 6 too. 5.5 at least.
Kidd and Law : The plot wants them at the same rank than Luffy.
Killer : same rank than Zoro. 5 if I remember correctly.
Boney : Dunno. Really she is unpredictable. She's weaker than the BB pirates. Ok , as the other SN I guess. I'ld put her at 5 .. but I am not that convinced.
Apoo : Didn't impress me. He took a long time to hit Kizaru. I'ld put him around 4.5.
Urouge : Raw force. Plus even rawer force. 4 at best.
Capone : Alone (without his crew) , from that we have seen. It's the weakest. 3. At best :p
Beppo : A kung fu adept talking polar bear. In a orange suit. Too awesome to be ranked below 8.
Note that I assume Bepo being ranked an 8 is a joke...

MonsterEnvy
October 12, 2010, 01:38 PM
Okay... we are randomly arguing for no reason... The current discussion is the ranking of the supernova's... Only one person has given a decent post and stated reasons why they should be ranked they way he suggested.
The argument of Shanks/Mihawk has its own thread please take the discussion there. The Crocodile discussion has been going on for roughly 5 pages... Your not going to come up with some crushing new evidence that says Crocodile is a god or a scrub so please stop discussing that aswell...

To all of you that come in here just to say how you dislike this thread or that it is a stupid idea... I have a crushing surprise for you... Your mouse brought you here... In the future go elsewhere it, I didn't force you to come here or force your eyes to read this thread. I'm not trying to make a 'Dragon Ballz' Ranking system that says this amount of power can beat A and this amount of power can beat B... If you read my original post it says just that... So take your annoying complaining elsewhere...

Furthermore I have stated on multiple occasions WE WILL NOT RANK FILLER/MOVIE CHARACTERS. For the obvious reason of they are outside of the main plot and serve no purpose in this ranking system.

CURRENT TOPIC:
Supernovas & Random side characters and their ranks.



Note that I assume Bepo being ranked an 8 is a joke...

I agree with the super nova ranking i would put Bepo at 4 or 4.5 for real

i hope Shiki makes another Manga apperance and he is still a canon character but for now i will respect your wishes and refrain from metioning him

Schabrak
October 12, 2010, 02:18 PM
WE WILL NOT RANK FILLER/MOVIE CHARACTERS.
Capitals wont make it any more effective nor official, since your are no Mod nor spokesman for the users, you should keep that "we" to yourself. And I'm free to give my honest oppinion on whatever discussion I like. As many have already mentioned, Shiki is and will stay a canon character even though we haven't seen him apart from chapter 0, which was a manga chapter, which was canon showing many canon characters and their prior look, in it and has lead to Shiki being imprisoned, escaping and being mentioned in the Impel Down arc. If the movie is filler or not is for Oda to decide, has it's own thread with an ongoing discussion, so let's keep it at that.

BlackSword
October 12, 2010, 06:28 PM
Capitals wont make it any more effective nor official, since your are no Mod nor spokesman for the users, you should keep that "we" to yourself. And I'm free to give my honest oppinion on whatever discussion I like. As many have already mentioned, Shiki is and will stay a canon character even though we haven't seen him apart from chapter 0, which was a manga chapter, which was canon showing many canon characters and their prior look, in it and has lead to Shiki being imprisoned, escaping and being mentioned in the Impel Down arc. If the movie is filler or not is for Oda to decide, has it's own thread with an ongoing discussion, so let's keep it at that.
Capital letters tend to draw the eye. And seeing as I've said it multiple times I was hoping it would catch peoples eyes. I'm not trying to mini-mode or anything I'm simply tired of repeating myself...

Fox666
October 12, 2010, 06:46 PM
I don't see any reason to say that Shiki is a filler character. As far I know, Oda also worked on the movie story.

Of course it's questionable of Luffy fighting a rival of Roger... but Luffy vs Crocodile still cause lots of discussion on this forum.
[hr]

The only comparison we have for the Supernovas are their bounties. While I don't think it's 100% precise, it's the best we have. So the best would be to classify the 200m+ and 200m- separately?

Either way, I don't think Bonney is as strong as the other Supernovas. it seems like that the Government wants her for other purposes. So I expect her bounty of over 100 million being kind of like Robin bounty of 79 million as a child.

BlackSword
October 12, 2010, 06:53 PM
I think a lot of people were using the Kizaru & Pacifista vs Hawkins, Apoo, XDrake & Urouge to judge the Supernovas.

DARK
October 12, 2010, 08:08 PM
How is Shiki ever a filler character?

Oda personally wrote the story for Strong World himself; Toei literally begged Oda to create the storyline for the 10th anniversary animation movie. To add more into this, Oda also published a manga side-story detailing the events of Gol D. Roger's execution, how it affected those who came to witness it, and Shiki being imprisoned in Impel Down.

When Luffy manages to break into Impel Down, Sengoku and Garp reflect that it was the first time that somebody caused a ruckus there since "Kinjishi." (Shiki) If Shiki was mentioned in a canonical arc, one could really question if his existence is "filler." There's no way Oda would insert the movie antagonist's name into such an important conversation, and still have him consider the person filler. (The manga wasn't purely advertising the movie you know).

Shiki is obviously not some "filler" character, his very existence is tied into the heart of the story. Shiki was unable to defeat Roger in battle, but his reputation in battle is frightening to say the least. If I had to place him on the tier system, Shiki would be Level 9.5 (in his prime). He is quite not on the level of Roger or Whitebeard, but is as notorious and fear-invoking.

Again, I still need to know why Hancock is high up on the ranking list, especially since we know very little of her battle style and the amounts of fights she had been in are limited (she only fought Smoker in the Marineford war). She may be a Shichibukai and has Kuja (Haoushoku) haki, but I still don't understand her placement. She may be the Pirate Empress, but her reputation isn't compared to the likes of the "World's Greatest Swordsman" or even Blackbeard himself.

Hancock's bounty is lower than most of the other Shichibukai thus far as well. There would be no point placing her in the stead of their progress unless we have seen her prove herself in battle. That's not to say that she isn't high up on the list, but not as high as, say, Level 8. I don't see how she could be any better than Jinbei, Crocodile, or Inankov in battle. How she might be able to defeat Ace or Shiryuu, I have no clue.

MonsterEnvy
October 12, 2010, 11:42 PM
How is Shiki ever a filler character?

Oda personally wrote the story for Strong World himself; Toei literally begged Oda to create the storyline for the 10th anniversary animation movie. To add more into this, Oda also published a manga side-story detailing the events of Gol D. Roger's execution, how it affected those who came to witness it, and Shiki being imprisoned in Impel Down.

When Luffy manages to break into Impel Down, Sengoku and Garp reflect that it was the first time that somebody caused a ruckus there since "Kinjishi." (Shiki) If Shiki was mentioned in a canonical arc, one could really question if his existence is "filler." There's no way Oda would insert the movie antagonist's name into such an important conversation, and still have him consider the person filler. (The manga wasn't purely advertising the movie you know).

Shiki is obviously not some "filler" character, his very existence is tied into the heart of the story. Shiki was unable to defeat Roger in battle, but his reputation in battle is frightening to say the least. If I had to place him on the tier system, Shiki would be Level 9.5 (in his prime). He is quite not on the level of Roger or Whitebeard, but is as notorious and fear-invoking.

Again, I still need to know why Hancock is high up on the ranking list, especially since we know very little of her battle style and the amounts of fights she had been in are limited (she only fought Smoker in the Marineford war). She may be a Shichibukai and has Kuja (Haoushoku) haki, but I still don't understand her placement. She may be the Pirate Empress, but her reputation isn't compared to the likes of the "World's Greatest Swordsman" or even Blackbeard himself.

Hancock's bounty is lower than most of the other Shichibukai thus far as well. There would be no point placing her in the stead of their progress unless we have seen her prove herself in battle. That's not to say that she isn't high up on the list, but not as high as, say, Level 8. I don't see how she could be any better than Jinbei, Crocodile, or Inankov in battle. How she might be able to defeat Ace or Shiryuu, I have no clue.

I agree with you but one thing the only reason Hancocks bounty was low like Croc's was because after one campain she got her High (for Starting) Bounty and was theb asked ti join the Shichibukai Crocodile had a low bounty too so I bet he became a Shichibukai early in his career too

St Michael
October 13, 2010, 02:10 AM
Note that I assume Bepo being ranked an 8 is a joke...

Hehe , yes it was. Even if ..

edit : Beppo isn't a SN anyway :(

Fox666
October 14, 2010, 12:50 AM
Yeah... still I bet he has a bounty beetween 50 and 100 million :p

St Michael
October 14, 2010, 03:36 AM
Hope he reached the 100 (or even 300 :darn) million during the skip.

beastboy
October 16, 2010, 10:15 AM
About Bepo, he committed a huge mistake in assuming that there were no female bears on Amazone Lily, IIRC there was a Panda Woman there, and Panda's are Bears!

BlackSword
October 16, 2010, 03:43 PM
Updated:
18 Characters Added.
Future Updates Section Added.
Latest Updates Section Added.
v.04
More coming soon!

Aikidoka
October 16, 2010, 04:56 PM
Shanks should be crossed out, I don't think he has had an actual on-panel fight yet IIRC.

Roarchu
October 16, 2010, 07:25 PM
what a heck? Tashigi in the same class as Bon-chan and only 1 class below Daz ??!!!

hmmm...during Arabasta:

Bon-chan ~ Sanji ~ Zoro >> Tashigi

nothing points to Tashigi being stronger now. And remember Impel Down? Bon-chan gave a few good pounds to the Minotaurus. do you think she could do as well as him in battle? no way

also, Jimbei (sea) vs Jimbei (land)...just a suggestion

beastboy
October 16, 2010, 07:31 PM
I think it would be interesting to add Nightmare Luffy to the list, I'd put it at 7.5 or 8, it really was pwning Oars like if it was a baby...