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Waking_Dreamer
October 16, 2010, 02:40 AM
Well heres an interesting one for me. All their shikais are pretty much combat orientated, and dont revolve around hax (except maybe Kira's) so this would seem like a decent brawl in close and mid-range distance.

Scenario 1
Location: SS, where Hitsugaya vs Gin.
Starting Distance: Histugaya in the center with each VC 30 meters from the center like compass points.

Restrictions: Bankai but Tenso Jurin activated
State of mind: VCs - IC but determined to win (Ikkaku allowing team up). Hitsugaya - bloodlusted (or whatever his state of mind was against Gin).


Scenario 2
Same as scenario1 but Ikkaku has bankai.

Scenario 3
Same as scenario1 but Renji has bankai.

Takahashi
October 16, 2010, 02:55 AM
Well, in the Gin fight, Hitsugaya damn near accidentally killed Kira just by changing the weather. I don't even like Hitsu, but I'd give it too him just because his ability allows him to kill several people at once.

At the same time, 4 on 1 would be impossible odds in real life. If Kira can connect with a few hits, Hitsugaya will slow down, he'll have to deal with the random spinning scythes, Baboon Bone Cannon, and Ikkaku's all around good CQC abilities.

I'll still say Hitsugaya.

Waking_Dreamer
October 16, 2010, 03:36 AM
If Kira can connect with a few hits, Hitsugaya will slow down, he'll have to deal with the random spinning scythes, Baboon Bone Cannon, and Ikkaku's all around good CQC abilities.

Youre considering that everyone is restricted to shikai's right? I think Renji and Ikkaku's bankai would make the scenario to imbalanced or do people think it would make it more even...?

I got the idea when Kira and Hisagi skirmished with Hitsugaya in the second Bleach movie, and then later on Renji and Ikkaku confront Shikai Hitsu.

I kind of like the idea of say Hitsugaya's crescent chain volleying against Renji's and Hisagi's shikai in an intense mid-range battle.

Random101
October 16, 2010, 03:43 AM
Hitsugaya with more or less ease. He already one shots Kira instantly as collateral damage when blood lusted. When he's an actual target there's just no chance whatsoever. By extension he should be able to do away with Hisagi with similar ease. Only Ikkaku and Renji have anything nearing any sort of evidence for being above VC in base skills, and frankly without bankai and given the rather sucky nature of their shikai's this doesn't help, like at all.

Waking_Dreamer
October 16, 2010, 03:53 AM
Hitsugaya with more or less ease. He already one shots Kira instantly as collateral damage when blood lusted. When he's an actual target there's just no chance whatsoever. By extension he should be able to do away with Hisagi with similar ease. Only Ikkaku and Renji have anything nearing any sort of evidence for being above VC in base skills, and frankly without bankai and given the rather sucky nature of their shikai's this doesn't help, like at all.

hmm...okay, I guess I'll make additional scenarios then - Renji and Ikkaku allowed bankai.

I was thinking a combo from Hisagi and Kira with kido would bridge the power gap somewhat. Hisagi has those purple rod/pillar kido and his exploding arm chain, Kira that wind kido and his barriers and healing...

Also, true Kira was tagged in the Gin vs Hitsu battle though to be fair it was the first time he ever saw Hitsugaya's shikai, and a large part of his mind was distraught with what happened to Momo and the fact two Captains were fighting each other in what was usually a stable SS. If Kira viewed Hitsugaya as an opponent straight off he would have higher chances of putting up a fight...maybe.

kkck
October 16, 2010, 11:11 AM
I think hitsugaya for the most part wins quite easily. How would bankai renji and bankai ikkaku defend from hitsugaya's range and sheer power? I don't think they have the means to stop hitsugaya's weather control and dragon as seen when he fought gin.

Random101
October 16, 2010, 12:27 PM
Even with their bankai's, I'd probably still go with Hitsugaya, though it's a hell of a lot more even now. Ikkaku's bankai has the disadvantage of being easily breakable, and Renji's pretty much got utterly owned against base Byakuya, who really only pulled shikai and bankai on whims. Together they certainly give him trouble at least though, especially if Ikkaku can get his full power off (Though a sudden flashstep might screw him over as I don't recall him being the best at speed). Hisagi and Kira however are practically nonentities.

kkck
October 16, 2010, 01:49 PM
I don't see how hitsugaya would get trouble from either of them even in bankai. What about them would be troublesome in the least? Speed? The idea that either renji, ikkaku, kira or hisagi can keep up in terms of speed is laughable at best. Power? HItsugaya is limited to shikai however can we expect either of their bankai's to keep up with hitsugaya's weather control or even defend them against that? Again, laughable. Heck, hitsugaya should be able to speedblits them and kido their asses even without shikai.

Random101
October 16, 2010, 01:52 PM
Teamwork actually. In a straight up fight neither Ikkaku nor Renji stand a chance, even if he's reduced to shikai, however two at once is a bit trickier than it sounds. Though again, I still say Hitsugaya's more likely to win, but with those parameters Ikkaku and Renji at least stand a chance.

kkck
October 16, 2010, 02:16 PM
I don't see them standing a chance.... the fight will be over literally the second they get wet. We saw kira could not possibly avoid the water from hitsugaya's shikai, there is nothing to protect ikkaku and renji from the water and the area of effect of hitsugaya's shikai when controlling the weather is 7 square miles. With those considerations it is not a matter of numbers, there is an unavoidable and unbreakable difference in power. Heck, hitsugaya's bankai tenso juuring sealed the third espada (she was released by Wonderweiss though), would it make a shred of sense a bunch of people with a fraction of hitsugaya's reiatsu stand a chance in hell against his shikai? This isn't even a fight, it is outright massacre. It would be even worst than what grants did to ishida and renji.

mr.danly
October 16, 2010, 04:10 PM
I gotta agree here, the problem is that most of the fighters here are short-range, close-combat. Once ikkaku gets close, he'll get his ass frozen, as would kira. Renji and Hisagi could go a bit more long-range, but Hitsugaya is just so much more powerful, and even his shikai is so destructive and covers such a wide area that they wouldn't really stand a chance.

Random101
October 16, 2010, 05:43 PM
Actually to protect them both have naturally large bankai to hold it off for that much longer, Renji's in particular. Like I said though, they're still going to likely lose, but these new parameters at least aren't a rapestomp.

kkck
October 16, 2010, 07:28 PM
I can see renji's bankai provided a very limited amount of protection from hitsugaya's water however how would ikakku's do that? It's not nearly big enough nor it provides defense from all angles. Not to mention both of them can get their bankai frozen solid and rendered useless too.

Random101
October 16, 2010, 07:48 PM
I have heavy doubts Hitsugaya's shikai could reasonably freeze either of their bankai to the point of inusability.

Damage sure, particularly since neither have particularly good durability feats, Ikkaku's expecially, but he's not Yamamoto level yet, even including Tenso Jurrin. It'll take a few passes before both are completely out of action.

kkck
October 16, 2010, 11:47 PM
Why would he need yamamoto's level to freeze their bankai though? hitsugaya has more than several times the reiatsu of either of them, I doubt such a thing would be out of his reach. Even byakuya's chantless kido or shikai was able to break renji's bankai, why wouldn't hitsugaya's (while at full power mode as he did with gin) be able of something similar? Either ikkaku and renji are being severely overestimated or hitsugaya is being grossly underestimated.

Random101
October 17, 2010, 12:04 AM
Oh freezing it is easy. Keeping it frozen however is the hard part. I have little doubts he would be able to damage it, possibly even pull Byakuya's distortion trick on it with little trouble. But if he wants it to not break out of getting frozen over it's going to take at least more than one pass of freeze the giant snake before it's completely incapable of getting broken out if he's reduced to shikai only.

Bankai however and then it's over the instant the ice covers it the first time.

Waking_Dreamer
October 17, 2010, 12:28 AM
Id say for Ikkaku he can take 2 Ice dragons with his bankai. It really doesnt grant him any defense bonus which I think was stated on his first bankai reveal. But say if he charges an ice dragon with a powered up bankai he could "slice" through an ice dragon to reduce its effecitveness or preventing it to freeze him instantly. Maybe he could even hold the middle blade and while pouring his reiatsu into his bankai spin his 2 attack blades to prevent an instant freeze from a dragon attack.

I think Renji's bankai could take 2-3 ice dragons before its completely immobilized. The idea here is to have Kira and Hisagi counter-attack or stall Hitsugaya once he hits one of the bankai users with an ice dragon. This gives a chance for Renji or Ikkaku to shave off the ice before they get hit by another dragon. If Hitsugaya spends an extended amount of time in 1vs 1 on any of the bankai users, they would fall pretty quick despite Hitsugaya just being in shikai.

If the VC work well together they could kite Hitsugaya's shikai power for at least a time, though even then their chances of winning are quite slim. If their teamwork goes well they could hold for a bit - even if they eventually lose in the end.

Random101
October 17, 2010, 12:42 AM
Hitsugaya's not reduced to just ice dragon in shikai, he spams regular ice too. Though granted if you're going to fling something at someone, probably best to have it be a semi sentient construct capable of at least some shifting around to keep on target.

Though that being said relying on Kira and Hisagi to stall is pretty much useless. Near misses oneshot Kira, and Hisagi likely won't be that far behind. No, one of the bankai users will have to keep his attention for the other to get a hit in, likely Ikkaku as Renji has an energy attack to use, and Ikkaku's dragon chargin could take a bit.

Though now that I think about it, Ikkaku's not one for two on one, so this could hurt all their chances... (Edit: Wait, that's a specific parameter of the fight, point voided).

kkck
October 17, 2010, 12:53 AM
Hitsugaya's bankai techniques left tercera espada, a water user frozen solid. I can't even imagine an scenario where his full power shikai can't do the same to a VC even in bankai. Heck, all things considered it should be 100 times easier and require a fraction of the power he used. IMO a single dragon can take on the 4 VCs in a single go. It is plausible a miracle occurs and there is actually something left after the attack so in the most extreme of scenarios hitsugaya has to attack twice. Seriously, such a thing should be quite easy not just for hitsugaya but for any captain at all.

Random101
October 17, 2010, 01:16 AM
Technique, HH only. Everything else, which I'd assume is the ones that are also viable in shikai, she either melted with ease or broke out of with ease. I'd assume HH at least is not viable in shikai, though granted Tenso Jurrin is so its hard to tell. That being said I don't doubt he has the power to do it eventually, but it's certainly not going to be with any particular ease in one pass.

Gran Maestro
October 17, 2010, 04:00 AM
As one of the few people who have faith in VCs, IMO if Ikkaku and Renji go bankai, Hitsugaya loses. I read comments like "Hitsugaya speedblitzes them without releasing his sword" or "Hitsugaya has more than several times their reiatsu", do we have a manga page in which these comments were stated? I think not.

On the contrary, we know that Renji didn't get speedblitzed by Byakuya who IMO is faster than Hitsugaya:

http://read.mangashare.com/Bleach/chapter-140/page015.html

He was fast enough to interrupt when Byakuya tried to release his zanpakuto:

http://read.mangashare.com/Bleach/chapter-140/page018.html

Byakuya's shikai was useless against Hihio Zabimaru as explained by Renji:

http://read.mangashare.com/Bleach/chapter-141/page016.html

He even forced Byakuya to his knees:

http://read.mangashare.com/Bleach/chapter-141/page018.html

Why did Renji lose? Because he lost control of his newfound bankai:

http://read.mangashare.com/Bleach/chapter-142/page007.html

http://read.mangashare.com/Bleach/chapter-142/page008.html

I believe Hitsugaya is on par with Byakuya, Byakuya is perhaps a bit stronger. So if Renji is capable of doing that to Byakuya with his amateurish control on his bankai, can't he perform better against Hitsugaya now that he has gained a considerable amount of experience, thanks to lots of training and fights with his bankai?

And who do we have alongside Renji? Ikkaku who achieved bankai much earlier than Renji, Hisagi who dodged, captured and killed hollow Tousen and Kira who is very skillful at kidou.

If you guys really think Hitsugaya can still defeat them easily, then either I must be reading a different manga or I'm mistaking Hitsugaya for Yamamoto. These guys will not sit back and watch Hitsugaya freeze them, they will dodge, scatter and attack from different directions.

These VCs are future captains. If they will not wake up one day to find themselves immensely more powerful, they must be quite strong. They have already been in Gotei 13 for quite a while and they are talented. Why does Ikkaku keep his bankai a secret? Because he fears he may become a captain. I don't believe they are as inferior as people make them out to be.

kkck
October 17, 2010, 10:13 AM
^Renji managed all of that with byakuya because he was familiar with byakuya's moves. He basically knew when byakuya was going to do his moves and timed his own counter appropriately. Renji won't be familiar with hitsugaya's own moves to that extent. And what do you think will happen to renji's bankai when it faces the dragon or any other of hitsugaya's techniques? He should by all intents and purposes lose control in the same way. Not to mention renji did not lose solely because he lost control of his bankai. He lost because byakuya sealed him with a powerful kido and then used his own bankai and reduced renji's bankai to 1000000 little pieces. Bankai was overkill basically, he could have done the exact same thing with any other technique. Hisagi managed to snick up on tousen when he was in a mindless rage. I don't think any other VC would have had trouble pulling that off under those circumstances. What could ikkaku's bankai do here? It breaks for no good reason, why would it even last against someone like hitsugaya?

The thing in this battle is that ultimately I can't see the VCs avoiding what happened to izuru here.
http://www.cloudmanga.com/Bleach/132/#6
He made it clear, it is impossible to avoid. He couldn't avoid the attack when it was not targeted towards him, why in the world would he have so much as a chance in hell of doing it when the attack is actually targeting him? It would not make sense in the least. The VCs are in all likelihood potential future captains however right now they are not anything but cannon fodder when compared to them. It is one thing to be strong by captain standards and another completely different one to be strong by VC standards.

Another thing, I agree in that byakuya is stronger than hitsugaya however if his reiatsu is anywhere in the same league then this is the result we get:
http://www.cloudmanga.com/Bleach/140/#8
http://www.cloudmanga.com/Bleach/143/#14
Just being in the guys reiatsu had a physical tool on him. If hitsugaya's own reiatsu is in the same league as byakuya's then just standing should be troublesome for the VCs.

Primecut
October 17, 2010, 10:28 AM
Hitsuguya tricks them all with an ice mirror while charging up his giant snow flake attack and one shots all four of them at once. Even though Hitsuguya is the weakest captain he still won't lose to these jobbers...no matter what.

Waking_Dreamer
October 17, 2010, 11:42 AM
^ This is shikai Hitsugaya....

Gran Maestro
October 17, 2010, 12:01 PM
Renji's loss of control provided Byakuya with the opportunity to bind Renji, otherwise he would have done it right in the beginning. Renji, as a bankai user, was by all means a newbie when he faced Byakuya, since then he has improved his bankai skills through many challenges he endured in the meantime, this is not the same Renji we're talking about.

Renji was familiar with Byakuya's techniques but familiarity doesn't mean much if you don't have the skills and potential to take advantage of said familiarity. Renji stated (http://read.mangashare.com/Bleach/chapter-140/page015.html) that his body was fast enough to catch up with Byakuya and he won't lose his speed if he'll face Hitsugaya. And likewise Hitsugaya won't be familiar with Renji's techniques.

Byakuya's reiatsu affected Renji at first because of Renji's fear of Byakuya. He later pulled himself together and put up a good fight, he couldn't have done that if he was under severe stress of Byakuya's reiatsu. Likewise Ichigo failed to hurt Kenpachi at first but he did better when he later overcame his fear. Grimmjow's fear of Aizen is the main reason why he couldn't resist Aizen's reiatsu.

Hisagi managed to evade a lethal attack from hollow Tousen and managed to catch him and put him in such a position that he could have hurt him if he wanted to:

http://read.mangashare.com/Bleach/chapter-384/page014.html

If Hisagi's speed and reflexes were vastly inferior to even shinigami Tousen, how on earth did he dodge such a blow from Tousen who was wearing a mask? If Hisagi has it in him to catch and kill Tousen, how can we say that he stands no chance against other opponents who stand on similar ground? He can seize and hurt Hitsugaya just like he did to Tousen, Hitsugaya will be forced to keep an eye on him which is a great nuisance in a fight.

Admittedly Kira's shikai is a bit useless in such a fight because he won't try to get close to Hitsugaya but his kidou can more than make up for it. He is skillful enough to use a 70-level binding kidou without incantation:

http://read.mangashare.com/Bleach/chapter-337/page009.html

Can Hitsugaya really afford to ignore someone who can bind him?

When Hitsugaya attacked Gin with his shikai, Kira was standing right next to Gin, so we can say that Kira was indeed a target because the attack was big enough to cover both of them. And Kira was standing in awe of Hitsugaya's shikai, was he mentally ready to dodge the attack? Didn't he already dodge the impossible-to-dodge attack, albeit with a frozen arm? Losing an arm wouldn't end the fight for Kira.

Ikkaku's problem is his lack of motivation to go bankai. His shikai is kinda on the useless side but he insists on holding back until he gets beat up. You say his bankai breaks for no good reason, look at Ikkaku, he was half-dead when he went bankai, do we need any more reason?

http://read.mangashare.com/Bleach/chapter-204/page021.html

Ikkaku is an expert bankai user, Hitsugaya would have a tough time against him with a shikai and the existence of three more opponents don't make things any easier for Hitsugaya.

El Samurai Guapo
October 17, 2010, 12:53 PM
I'd have a hard time believing Toushirou could comfortably take all four of them in bankai, let alone shikai. It wasn't Byakuya's shikai that did Renji in, it was his kidou. We know that kidou is pretty much as effective as even the nastiest bankais. Byakuya went worse on Renji than he did with Ichigo. I didn't see Ichigo get hit with any giant-ass Soukatsui or binded with rikujukouro. I didn't see any flying swords come at Ichigo either.

If Shikai Toushirou can break out some Byakuya or Urahara level kidou then he wins, but with his mere shikai he's screwed against two bankai users and two adept kidou using VCs. This is the very same shikai that couldn't do shit to a sealed Yammi; it's one of the worst in the manga. Toushirou certainly makes up for it by having a powerful bankai, but he's similar to Byakuya in that his shikai is obsolete.

kkck
October 17, 2010, 01:04 PM
Hitsugaya usually holds back his power when fighting though. When he used his shikai against gin he did back it up with tenso jurin and it turned out to be quite nasty. On the other hand, against yammi he limited to avoid getting his own comrades caught in it. That said, I still don't see how the VCs could realistically defend themselves from hitsugaya.

Waking_Dreamer
October 17, 2010, 01:39 PM
This is the very same shikai that couldn't do shit to a sealed Yammi; it's one of the worst in the manga.

Well to be fair, his hierro was stated to be the second strongest right after Nnoitra.

thornofcarrion
October 17, 2010, 01:48 PM
Even though Hitsu is a captain with lots of potential and we know VCs lack when compared with captains. But I find it rather hard to convince myself that he can beat all four together. Hitsu's chances are better in Scenario 2 however.

Omiem
October 17, 2010, 03:00 PM
Hitsugaya usually holds back his power when fighting though. When he used his shikai against gin he did back it up with tenso jurin and it turned out to be quite nasty. On the other hand, against yammi he limited to avoid getting his own comrades caught in it. That said, I still don't see how the VCs could realistically defend themselves from hitsugaya.
Tenso Jurin doesn't increase Hitsugaya's regular ice attacks drastically.
Here's a shikai ice dragon without Tenso Jurin. http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-chapter-231-page-3.html
Here's a shikai ice dragon with Tenso Jurin. http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-chapter-132-page-4.html
Notice Hitsugaya's body relative to the ice dragons. As you can see, there's not a huge gap in size between them, meaning that both dragons likely had the same power.
Anyways, I can see Renji's bankai using its Baboon Bone Cannon to defend against the ice dragons and Ikkaku's bankai slicing through them. I don't see Hisagi or Kira having an answer for Hitsugaya's attacks, so they'll have to try dodging instead.

Well to be fair, his hierro was stated to be the second strongest right after Nnoitra.
He didn't break the ice with Hierro if that's what your implying. He broke it with brute strength.

Random101
October 17, 2010, 03:52 PM
The excerpt in question from the databook:


The destructive attack power that he draws from his both arms, his looks are not misleading, that attack power is the best among the Espada, his hiero boasts a hardness that is only second to Nnoitra
Yeah, brute strength is something Yammi's apparently best at. He's apparently only tenth because he's a dumbass according to Kubo, hence he's not the best example. What example we do have is that Kira was splashed by some water from a shikai attack aimed at Gin, and was completely immobilized thanks to it. Him and Hisagi get nailed once, even a little, and they're out of the picture. Renji and Ikkaku are the real threats here. From where I stand they definitely have a chance, it'll just be tricky as they probably can't hold off the ice forever.

Edit: Also now that I look at those pages, the ice dragon you're using as the example of Tenso Jurrin formed before Tenso Jurrin activated, if we take into consideration the clouds forming on the next page. I think instead the size here should be taken into account: http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-chapter-132-page-6.html

Mind you that's several times more massive than that building behind it, ergo much larger than Gin and Kira combined, and it's not even taking into account the splashback. Granted, it's hard to tell regardless, but Tenso Jurrin certainly seemed to make it bigger, and it follows the logic of more water = more power for him.

Waking_Dreamer
October 18, 2010, 04:08 PM
He didn't break the ice with Hierro if that's what your implying. He broke it with brute strength.
If only the top layer of skin is frozen, than ice attacks wont hold Espada for long. Yammy having the second toughest Hierro would have the most reslilience to Hitsuagaya's ice attacks out of all the Espada except for #5.

The VC-level fighters wont have that luxury....
[hr]
Out of curiousity I want to know what people think of Hitsu's swordmanship compared to the others.

Restrictions: All Bankai.
Hitsugaya's Ice attacks. But he still has his shikai crescent-blade chain.

In say 1vs1 who would have the geatest chance at defeating Hitsu or lasting the longest against him and who would be the weakest? How would you rank them?

And if Hitsugaya still comes out on top, what combination of the shikai fighters would give them best chance of winning? e.g.

Renji and Hisagi? (mid-range shikai users)
Kira and Hisagi? (The all-rounders)
Renji and Ikkaku? (former squadmates)
All four them? (Four vs 1)

What do people think?

Random101
October 18, 2010, 05:56 PM
Pure swordsmanship is suicide against Kira without a significant gap in strength. Granted though there is a gap, just hard to gauge how much, he certainly seemed able to blitz both him and Hinamori that one time, even took a strike from his shikai and was virtually unphased then, though admittedly one isn't exactly much. Then there was that other time he virtually dispatched Hinamori with a backhand, though granted she was quite distressed and thus likely not fighting as effectively.

If they teamup effectively, and more importantly work hard to keep Kira alive and getting enough hits in they probably have a decent chance of winning this one, though granted hard to say without knowing certain factors, particularly the speed gap.

Waking_Dreamer
October 18, 2010, 06:56 PM
True, blade to blade Kira is an issue but mostly if you have only one blade. Hitsugaya's shikai chain can also be launched as a another attack as Kira is engaged with Hitsu's katana blade.

In 1vs1 if Hitsugaya has your arm encapacitated with his chain, then youre done for imo. It took 4 slashes for Matsumoto's zanpakuto to be unusabe, I would say it would take more than that for Histugaya to drop his sword.

poobert
October 19, 2010, 01:04 PM
Kira is out of action just being close to the dragon. I don't know about individual abilities, but Hisagi's reatsu must be in the same area as Kira, which means that he can't touch Hitsu in shikai either. With both Renji and Ikkaku in shikai too, they will loose.

The closer you get to Hitsu, the more exposed they are to the dragon, and well.... for a vc, that is suicide.

If Renji and Ikkaku go bankai, they will probably have the reatsu to withstand being close to the dragon, but if they get hit, they are boned. To top it off, Ikkaku is a close range fighter and Renji is crap. No chance that they will not get hit a few times just trying to get close to Hitsu.

And one more thing. Hitsu is so much faster than them it is silly. Renji could see Byakuya's attack, so I assume he can see Hitsu's too, but in a prolonged fight I don't give him a chance, especially because he himself can't move that fast. The other vc's are also slow compared to a captain (although Ikkaku can probably see the speed too considering he is a melee expert).

And just to top it off.... Hitsu's snow move is a shikai move. If all else fails, he makes it snow and the VC's are buggered.

Xsoteria
October 19, 2010, 07:24 PM
Well there is certainly a pretty big gap in speed and strength here, IMO, between Kira and Hitsu. I would actually put Hisagi above Kira in both strength and speed. He also has the feats to back it up. Hisagi's shikai is less hax, that's for sure, but I think it would be better suited for this fight, because if someone like Kira enters a direct swordfight with Hitsu, it's game over pretty soon.

I think that whatever hope there is for VCs here, lies in Hisagi and Ikkaku, who seem to be the only guys to be able to physically keep up strength and speedwise. Renji's bankai matters, but lets face it, it wont hit. It may protect him and do some actual tanking though, something none of the other VCs could do, save for maybe Ikkaku who I think could take a beating, especially in bankai.

kkck
October 22, 2010, 07:38 PM
Tenso Jurin doesn't increase Hitsugaya's regular ice attacks drastically.
Here's a shikai ice dragon without Tenso Jurin. http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-chapter-231-page-3.html
Here's a shikai ice dragon with Tenso Jurin. http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-chapter-132-page-4.html
Notice Hitsugaya's body relative to the ice dragons. As you can see, there's not a huge gap in size between them, meaning that both dragons likely had the same power.
Anyways, I can see Renji's bankai using its Baboon Bone Cannon to defend against the ice dragons and Ikkaku's bankai slicing through them. I don't see Hisagi or Kira having an answer for Hitsugaya's attacks, so they'll have to try dodging instead.

He didn't break the ice with Hierro if that's what your implying. He broke it with brute strength.

Baboon cannon could provide a provisional defense but it would not last forever nor I think renji could keep it up. I don't think size and power would mean quite the same though, its not like this was an explosion or something of the sort. Besides, the properties the ice can take are an issue here and activating tenso jurin for some reason makes a difference. Take the hitsugaya vs harribel fight. Before tenso jurin all of hitsugaya's techniques could be melted with ease. When he used tenso jurin and the petal technique she could not melt it at all, quite the opposite. I also doubt baboon cannon would have a chance in hell of hitting hitsugaya nor that it can keep up with the power of the dragon. As for ikkaku, cutting through the dragon is plausible but what good would it do for him? The fight would end for him the second he gets wet which is certain to happen if he takes the dragon head on with or without bankai. For kira it was impossible to dodge hitsugaya's attacks when they were not even aimed at him. If 1 attack is actually aimed at him he does, there is no middle ground, no defense, no response plausible. Hisagi should be roughly of kira's level meaning that he has roughly the same chances as kira to get screwed over with attacks which do not even target him. If there is any justice to what hitsugaya said here (http://www.cloudmanga.com/Bleach/132/#2) then even if the fight started a couple of miles from each other and they ran like hell in every direction away from hitsugaya the lot of them could still be potentially trashed or even killed. It's not that I think VCs are altogether weak, its just that captains are several entire leagues above them. Surely VCs are the second best thing next to captains however they are still people of relatively low importance who can be easily replaced within the gotei 1 (http://www.cloudmanga.com/Bleach/153/#12)3. Heck, even with bankai renji could not land so much as a hit against grants, let alone his shikai. What could he possibly do against hitsugaya?

Omiem
October 23, 2010, 11:30 PM
Sorry, I didn’t mean to say Baboon cannon would provide an efficient defense for Renji. My mind was thinking of filler/movie Renji, lol.
But I do think the cannon would rival in power with the ice dragons if not overcome them.
The anime did make Baboon cannon seem like an explosion.http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TSh4bsFgVxA
In the manga, it didn’t really give me a clear picture of the effects it caused. http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-chapter-210-page-17.html
Regardless, it was still able to take out a fraccion in 1 shot, which means I’m pretty sure it will do something against the dragons.
Anyways, I can still see Renji’s bankai itself providing an efficient defense seeing how Yammy broke Hitsugaya’s ice so easily.
Now the chances of Baboon cannon actually connecting to Hitsugaya really depends on the distance. If Renji shoots from long range, then Hitsugaya will have no problem dodging. If he shoots from close range, then there’s a good chance of it hitting.

I agree that HH’s properties in ice are greater than Hitsugaya’s smaller ice attacks, but that’s not the point. What I’m saying is that there’s no proof Tenso Jurin can increase the power/properties of Hitsugaya’s ice dragons. Even if we say Tenso Jurin does have such an ability, it doesn’t necessarily mean it will drastically increase the ice dragon’s power. Look at this. http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-chapter-231-page-16.html
On the bottom left panel, Hitsugaya says he can’t do anything without his bankai. He never said he couldn’t do anything without Tenso Jurin. This pretty much tells me that Tenso Jurin won’t really make a huge increase in the effectiveness of the ice dragons. Well at least, that’s how I see it.

Sure Ikkaku might get wet, but he’s not gonna be instantly frozen if that’s what your implying. The power and reiatsu his bankai generates will make it tough for Hitsu to immobilize him seeing how Yammy broke the ice so easily in base. With enough force, the bankai will at least soften the power of the ice dragons to the point where Ikkaku won’t be fully frozen. One thing I will say though is that Ikkaku’s bankai won’t last long as a good defense seeing how it broke against Edrad.

Kira was still relatively close to Gin seeing the bottom panel. http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-chapter-132-page-5.html So there’s really not a huge difference whether Hitsugaya was aiming at Kira or not, which means that you have to give Kira some credit for actually avoiding a direct hit especially since it’s his first time seeing Hitsugaya’s shikai. Kira saying it was impossible to avoid was just his first impressions on the attack. It doesn’t literally mean it would be impossible for him to dodge it.

I can see Hisagi dodging the ice dragons seeing how he avoided Masked Tousen’s blitz. With that reaction skills, he should have a plausible chance.

What Hitsugaya said about the 7 miles deal was most likely referring to HH, not his regular ice attacks.

I agree that captains are several leagues above the VCs, but don’t forget that this is a 4 on 1 against a shikai captain. Add the fact that you have 2 VCs who can actually achieve Bankais which is very uncommon and I highly doubt Yamamoto knew Renji or Ikkaku had such abilities. Those facts alone should be more than enough reason why the 4 VCs are on par with shikai Hitsugaya.

Random101
October 24, 2010, 12:19 AM
Kira saying it was impossible to avoid was just his first impressions on the attack. It doesn’t literally mean it would be impossible for him to dodge it.
Actually it kinda does. Granted he might have a greater chance the next time, but he pretty much directly states he couldn't avoid it. Until we actually see him prove otherwise there's quite simply no other way to take that statement. This is compounded further by the fact that even just getting splashed with the water is an instant KO, and that Hitsugaya is casually flinging ice dragons the size of buildings at them with Tenso Jurrin active doesn't help in the slightest. Particularly since he's practically spamming that crap.

Frankly even if they managed to avoid the first one, both Kira and Hisagi are pretty much fodder in this fight. Kira especially since he's pretty much exclusively close ranged. Ikkaku and Renji definitely have a chance with bankai though, just not a particularly solid one give the odds that should be in their favor.

kkck
October 24, 2010, 01:14 AM
Sorry, I didn’t mean to say Baboon cannon would provide an efficient defense for Renji. My mind was thinking of filler/movie Renji, lol.
But I do think the cannon would rival in power with the ice dragons if not overcome them.
The anime did make Baboon cannon seem like an explosion.http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TSh4bsFgVxA
In the manga, it didn’t really give me a clear picture of the effects it caused. http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-chapter-210-page-17.html
Regardless, it was still able to take out a fraccion in 1 shot, which means I’m pretty sure it will do something against the dragons.
Anyways, I can still see Renji’s bankai itself providing an efficient defense seeing how Yammy broke Hitsugaya’s ice so easily.
Now the chances of Baboon cannon actually connecting to Hitsugaya really depends on the distance. If Renji shoots from long range, then Hitsugaya will have no problem dodging. If he shoots from close range, then there’s a good chance of it hitting.

I agree that HH’s properties in ice are greater than Hitsugaya’s smaller ice attacks, but that’s not the point. What I’m saying is that there’s no proof Tenso Jurin can increase the power/properties of Hitsugaya’s ice dragons. Even if we say Tenso Jurin does have such an ability, it doesn’t necessarily mean it will drastically increase the ice dragon’s power. Look at this. http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-chapter-231-page-16.html
On the bottom left panel, Hitsugaya says he can’t do anything without his bankai. He never said he couldn’t do anything without Tenso Jurin. This pretty much tells me that Tenso Jurin won’t really make a huge increase in the effectiveness of the ice dragons. Well at least, that’s how I see it.

Sure Ikkaku might get wet, but he’s not gonna be instantly frozen if that’s what your implying. The power and reiatsu his bankai generates will make it tough for Hitsu to immobilize him seeing how Yammy broke the ice so easily in base. With enough force, the bankai will at least soften the power of the ice dragons to the point where Ikkaku won’t be fully frozen. One thing I will say though is that Ikkaku’s bankai won’t last long as a good defense seeing how it broke against Edrad.

Kira was still relatively close to Gin seeing the bottom panel. http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-chapter-132-page-5.html So there’s really not a huge difference whether Hitsugaya was aiming at Kira or not, which means that you have to give Kira some credit for actually avoiding a direct hit especially since it’s his first time seeing Hitsugaya’s shikai. Kira saying it was impossible to avoid was just his first impressions on the attack. It doesn’t literally mean it would be impossible for him to dodge it.

I can see Hisagi dodging the ice dragons seeing how he avoided Masked Tousen’s blitz. With that reaction skills, he should have a plausible chance.

What Hitsugaya said about the 7 miles deal was most likely referring to HH, not his regular ice attacks.

I agree that captains are several leagues above the VCs, but don’t forget that this is a 4 on 1 against a shikai captain. Add the fact that you have 2 VCs who can actually achieve Bankais which is very uncommon and I highly doubt Yamamoto knew Renji or Ikkaku had such abilities. Those facts alone should be more than enough reason why the 4 VCs are on par with shikai Hitsugaya.

I don't think the baboon cannon could actually overpower the dragon but even if it does it would not get rid of the water. The water can be reused or freeze renji.

Also, are you seriously comparing yammi, the espada with the second strongest hierro, with renji or ikkaku? Renji is miles away from even sealed yammi, its not even funny. Heck, both of them barely won against measly fraccion and renji won out of luck, he actually said he might not have won if his sudden increase in power hadn't caught grants off guard Also, against yammi hitsugaya did not use tenso jurin nor he could have. He would have gotten his comrades killed on the spot.

So how would kira avoid the attack? As he said, it was fast and huge. If we consider that along with the fact that the attack was not aimed at him, how does he avoid it? Even gin actually got wet from the attack.

Also, hisagi did not avoid tousen's attacks. Avoiding an attack implies you did not actually get hit. What hisagi did was merely move back enough for the cut tousen gave to not outright kill him. In this situation there is no middle ground. If he gets wet, he dies without even being targeted.

The area of effect of hitsugaya's shikai is enough to take out the 4 VCs at once. If I recall he has 7 square miles where he could quite literally throw chunks of heaven to the VCs. It does not matter if it is 4 VCs or 13 or 100 IMO. Hitsugaya speedblitsing the VCs is not unrealistic in the least. Heck, the most realistic scenario is that he does outright speedblits the VCs in close combat. That said, I don't think defeating 4 VCs is something that would be hard for any captain in the least.

Lets also consider this.
http://www.cloudmanga.com/Bleach/210/#18
http://www.cloudmanga.com/Bleach/211/#2

basically, hitsugaya in a half dead state after taking a trashing and moments before he passed out was still capable of scaring a fraccion with his reiatsu alone. Heck, the fraccion quite literally did not have a sliver if a chance in hell of escaping nor or opposing hitsugaya in his barely alive stage. Had hitsugaya not have the limiter from the start odds are he would have just speedblits the guy from the beginning (he did basically speedblits him right now) without even having a need to release his zampakuto. Unless there is some serious trolling in this fight there is not reason for the VCs to have a sliver of a chance in hell of even defending themselves.

Gran Maestro
October 24, 2010, 02:54 AM
kkck, correct me if I'm wrong but do you say that Hitsugaya with his sealed sword can defeat the rest of Gotei 13 combined? (captains excluded)

Random101
October 24, 2010, 03:15 AM
About 90% of those probably faint from spirit pressure of a captain alone. A further 7% probably go down with the backlash of one attack. Mayuri put it best, the strength of the Gotei 13 is almost entirely decided with the 13 captains.

Course this isn't to say he could take all the vice captain's sealed, particularly given close combat alone against Kira is just a bad idea without an absolutely massive powergap, but putting it as the rest of the gotei 13 combined, excluding captains, sounds significantly more impressive than it actually is given what we know.

El Samurai Guapo
October 24, 2010, 03:24 AM
I think Madarame Ikkaku could solo Toushirou in shikai. Ikkaku is not a VC, yet strength wise he's somewhere in between a VC and captain.

The way I see it, the difference between someone like Renji or Ikkaku (i.e. bankai-capable non-captain shinigamis) and the captains is that the captains' bankai are more devastating due to their complete control over them. The difference can seem like night and day, but comparing a shikai to a bankai is an even bigger night and day difference.

Yeah, people will bring up Renji vs. Byakuya but that was the FIRST time Renji can used his bankai in combat, and Byakuya was also busting out kidou as well. If the two had a rematch and Byakuya was banned from using kidou, Renji would definitely force Byakuya into bankai IMO.

Gran Maestro
October 24, 2010, 04:47 AM
True, most of them don't pose any threat to a captain, I'm just trying to figure out where kkck is coming from. If I'm not mistaken, kkck's opinion is that any person from one class can defeat the totality of people from lower classes. For example, Yammy as espada #10 in his sealed form can take on all VCs and fraccions and win without much effort. If this is the case, there's no point in discussing the merits of Hitsugaya's shikai because he wouldn't need it anyway.

Of course, this is a totally contradictory logic according to my standards. Let's take Ikkaku. He probably has more than a decade of experience with his bankai. If he is still nothing against Hitsugaya's sealed sword, then he will never be a captain, ever. Because when he becomes a captain, he will be strong enough to force some captains to bankai but apparently he is so weak that he can't even force them to shikai, even with the help of a horde of people on his side. How will he close such a big gap, is there room for his bankai to grow 1000 times stronger even after a decade of experience? I don't think so.

How did Byakuya defeat Renji's bankai? He took advantage of Renji's lack of control because Renji had just achieved it. If Renji had challenged Byakuya after gaining proper control of his bankai, Byakuya would have been forced to use bankai to defeat Renji. I don't buy the "familiarity" argument which suggests captains are stronger than VCs only because VCs don't know their abilities. If Byakuya was so much stronger than Renji, he should have been able to defeat him without any visible effort. If there was such a big gap, the fight would have ended in five seconds.

Captains are much stronger than VCs because they have proper control of their bankai and thus they can use their bankai to overwhelm the opposition. If they won't use shikai (let alone bankai), I don't see where exactly their advantage is. Hollow Tousen failed to speedblitz Hisagi, do people expect me to believe even shinigami Tousen was too fast for Hisagi to handle? It doesn't make sense. If Hisagi was that lowly, his sealed sword in his injured state couldn't penetrate Tousen's skin in his resurreccion. We know that Hisagi can theoretically defeat someone of hollow Tousen's calibre provided that he finds an opening. Who says that Hitsugaya won't give any opening to him? Who says that Renji and Ikkaku's bankais will not be enough distraction? Who says that Hitsugaya can speedblitz someone whom hollow Tousen couldn't?

If Hitsugaya goes bankai and uses Hyoten Hyakkaso, he can defeat all VCs, it makes perfect sense. But why does Hitsugaya have to be stronger than the lot of VCs with his sealed sword, what is the reason for that? We know that your reiatsu increases as you get stronger, in that sense Hitsugaya certainly has more reiatsu than them but where was it stated that Hitsugaya's reiatsu with his sealed sword is still stronger than Ikkaku's reiatsu in bankai? Do we have a reiatsu table which I forgot to read?

The "VCs are nothing" concept appeared when Ichigo took care of three VCs with his bare hands. Ichigo is the main hero, his power is incredibly unstable, Ichigo isn't a reliable benchmark for any power comparison. Otherwise people need to explain why Kenpachi is stronger than Dordonii, he totally overpowered shikai Ichigo who defeated Kenpachi. On top of that, we need to realize that Hisagi is much stronger than the likes of Omaeda or Isane. It seems Kubo has plans for Hisagi and Renji, he emphasized their training, I think this is a hint, isn't it?

Waking_Dreamer
October 24, 2010, 04:50 AM
About 90% of those probably faint from spirit pressure of a captain alone. A further 7% probably go down with the backlash of one attack. Mayuri put it best, the strength of the Gotei 13 is almost entirely decided with the 13 captains.

Id say shinigami 3rd seat and below (besides those who are hidding their power) are non factors against a sealed Hitsugaya. So its basically VCs against Hitsugaya.


I think Madarame Ikkaku could solo Toushirou in shikai. Ikkaku is not a VC, yet strength wise he's somewhere in between a VC and captain.

The well-rounded nature of Hitsugaya's shikai would still make it a tough match. If we include the kido he suppose to know the edge would be in Hitsugaya's favor I think.


Yeah, people will bring up Renji vs. Byakuya but that was the FIRST time Renji can used his bankai in combat, and Byakuya was also busting out kidou as well. If the two had a rematch and Byakuya was banned from using kidou, Renji would definitely force Byakuya into bankai IMO.

Renji would definitely put up a better fight in a rematch but I think you would need to ban kido and cicada to make Byakuya go bankai. As seen with his battle against a Fraccion, once you get through his bankai's coils Renji has very little options to attack.

Omiem
October 24, 2010, 06:34 AM
I don't think the baboon cannon could actually overpower the dragon but even if it does it would not get rid of the water. The water can be reused or freeze renji.
Looks like we'll just have to agree/disagree on this point.

Also, are you seriously comparing yammi, the espada with the second strongest hierro, with renji or ikkaku?
I thought Yammy only had the 2nd strongest Hierro in release form. After all, base Yammy did have his arm cut off easily by Ichigo. Correct me if I'm wrong.

Renji is miles away from even sealed yammi, its not even funny. Heck, both of them barely won against measly fraccion and renji won out of luck, he actually said he might not have won if his sudden increase in power hadn't caught grants off guard Also, against yammi hitsugaya did not use tenso jurin nor he could have. He would have gotten his comrades killed on the spot.
Your not getting the point. It's not that Yammy just broke Hitsugaya's ice. It's how he did it so easily. So going by your logic that Renji and Ikkaku being miles away from sealed Yammy, you would also be saying shikai Hitsugaya would be miles away from sealed Yammy too. Even Hitsugaya himself admits this by saying that he couldn't do anything without the use of bankai. http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-chapter-231-page-16.html
So I'm not saying Renji or Ikkaku are gonna break the ice like how Yammy did it. But I also won't say that they'll be frozen so easily seeing how Yammy made the attack look like child's play.

Yeah, both Renji and Ikkaku did barely win against measly fraccions, but at the same time, I can also say shikai Hitsugaya was owned by a measly fraccion too. Why do I say shikai you might ask? Well remember that bankai increases a shinigami's power 5-10 times. Hitsugaya was at 20% of his full capabilities while using bankai, meaning that his ice was roughly around shikai level. Shawlong in base form however still manages to break the ice with relative ease. I'm not saying this logic is entirely accurate because I'm well aware of other factors too, but it will at least reinforce the argument that Renji and Ikkaku aren't gonna get frozen so easily.

Tenso Jurin isn't gonna kill his comrades on the spot. Show me a regular ice attack from Hitsugaya that's big enough to do that. Otherwise, it's not really a good excuse why Hitsugaya didn't use Tenso Jurin on Yammy. He most likely didn't use Tenso Jurin because it won't really make a huge increase in his ice attacks. That's really the only logical explanation why Hitsu said he couldn't do anything without his bankai while not even mentioning Tenso Jurin.

So how would kira avoid the attack? As he said, it was fast and huge. If we consider that along with the fact that the attack was not aimed at him, how does he avoid it? Even gin actually got wet from the attack.
It really depends on distance. If Hitsugaya launches an ice dragon from close range, then Kira isn't gonna avoid it. If he launches it from long range, then Kira will have a chance to dodge.

Also, hisagi did not avoid tousen's attacks. Avoiding an attack implies you did not actually get hit. What hisagi did was merely move back enough for the cut tousen gave to not outright kill him. In this situation there is no middle ground. If he gets wet, he dies without even being targeted.
I guess I'll have to be more specific. What I meant was that Hisagi avoided a direct hit by reflex. That means he avoided the direct hit with an involuntary response, which is impressive considering he was against a speedster like Mask Tousen. Hisagi isn't gonna die if he gets wet. Kira got wet and he didn't die, am I right?

The area of effect of hitsugaya's shikai is enough to take out the 4 VCs at once. If I recall he has 7 square miles where he could quite literally throw chunks of heaven to the VCs. It does not matter if it is 4 VCs or 13 or 100 IMO. Hitsugaya speedblitsing the VCs is not unrealistic in the least. Heck, the most realistic scenario is that he does outright speedblits the VCs in close combat. That said, I don't think defeating 4 VCs is something that would be hard for any captain in the least.
Before Hitsugaya initiated HH on Harribel, Kubo gave us a flashback of the 7 miles statement. http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-chapter-372-page-6.html
Now why would Kubo do that before Hitsugaya used his HH? Well it's most likely that the statement had something to do with HH, which means that Hitsugaya was warning Kira to leave the vicinity because he was about to use HH on Gin. That's why he summoned Tenso Jurin in the first place.
Now lets apply a little logic here in case you still disagree with me. You have to realize how big 7 miles really is. Now do you think that a shikai ice dragon can literally cover that much distance? If you do, then I don't know what to say man. All I know is that HH is Hitsugaya's biggest attack which is gonna be the most logical to cover 7 miles.
Hitsugaya isn't gonna blitz Renji so easily seeing how Renji reacted to Byakuya's speed. Same for Hisagi seeing how he avoided a direct hit from Tousen by reflex. I don't remember Ikkaku having any good reaction feats, but I also don't recall him ever being blitzed. So I don't know about Ikkaku. I'll explain Kira in the next point.

Lets also consider this.
http://www.cloudmanga.com/Bleach/210/#18
http://www.cloudmanga.com/Bleach/211/#2

basically, hitsugaya in a half dead state after taking a trashing and moments before he passed out was still capable of scaring a fraccion with his reiatsu alone. Heck, the fraccion quite literally did not have a sliver if a chance in hell of escaping nor or opposing hitsugaya in his barely alive stage. Had hitsugaya not have the limiter from the start odds are he would have just speedblits the guy from the beginning (he did basically speedblits him right now) without even having a need to release his zampakuto. Unless there is some serious trolling in this fight there is not reason for the VCs to have a sliver of a chance in hell of even defending themselves.
That doesn't really tell me Hitsugaya was fast. It just tells me more that Shawlong was slow. If Hitsugaya was as fast as you claim he is, then how come he didn't manage to blitz Kira right here? http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-chapter-168-page-13.html
Hitsugaya just saw central 46 being massacred, so he would've had every reason to blitz Kira for questioning. The fact that he couldn't just tells me he wasn't fast enough.

Waking_Dreamer
October 24, 2010, 07:40 AM
^About Yammy,

To me the Espada system works like this: sealed Yammy has the 2nd strongest hierro after sealed Nnoitra in terms of all the Espada when sealed. Then Yammy released would have the second strongest hierro after released Nnoitra in terms of all the Espada when released.

Ichigo has all the bankai reiatsu compressed into his bankai blade. Even Gin commented on how Ichigo's blade felt like it was almost cutting through his while Ichigo was only defending. Given enough focus at that partiuclar time he can cut through a many good things that would in outside perspective be very difficult to cut e.g. Released Grimmjow's hierro and his Desgarron.

Also, Yammy completely underestimated Ichigo in their first encounter and was probably not in full battle-mindset when he attacked - since he was considering everyone trash before Ichigo came.

About Tenso Jurin,

The only times we have seen Hitsugaya use it is either in SS or FKT. Tenso Jurin significantly changes the weather right? When yammy attacked I believe it was during broad daylight. The last thing Hitsugaya would want is to summon storm clouds in the middle of a park of what was meant to be a sunny day. Hitsugaya would only handicap himself even more, if civilians actually started gathering around the location they were fighting the Espada imo.

Random101
October 24, 2010, 11:18 AM
Frankly the most obvious reason that Hitsugaya hasn't used Tenso Jurrin until Harribel is that Kubo forgot about it until then. I mean just read the Harribel fight, the entire thing reeked of something Kubo only recently remembered while reading through the manga again. Complete with a flashback to the specific instance and everything. Like Fura or the 1st division VC showing up again despite his excuse for being missing being bollocks. All I know is that after Tenso Jurrin activated the size of the dragon went from body size to the size of a freaking building, and it follows the more water = more power logic for him. Hence there's more than enough evidence to call a boost in power there.

Further until Kira proves he can dodge, his statement is frankly fact. He can't dodge a dragon not aimed at him, plain and simple. He could not possibly have stated that clearer. Maybe it's only a Tenso Jurrin enhance dragon of such massive size and he could plausibly dodge the littler ones, but otherwise there's literally no point in arguing against a fact outright stated by the character in question.

Similarly Hitsugaya's already shown he can blitz both Kira and Hinamori at the same time before either realize what the hell. That he didn't use shunpo at all when chasing Kira (This point is non arguable mind you) is more plot shenanigan's than anything else. It's kinda like how spiritual senses only work when the plot demands it, otherwise we have people splitting up in enemy territory for no good reason.

kkck
October 24, 2010, 11:36 AM
I don't think that is necessarily the case. Hitsugaya has made it clear tenso jurin is not something he can quite control. In that sense, if he had used it from the start he would have gotten in other captains fights. Even when he did decide to use it he had to wait enough for his bankai to not be at his best and have something he could manage.

Omiem
October 26, 2010, 05:35 PM
Frankly the most obvious reason that Hitsugaya hasn't used Tenso Jurrin until Harribel is that Kubo forgot about it until then. I mean just read the Harribel fight, the entire thing reeked of something Kubo only recently remembered while reading through the manga again. Complete with a flashback to the specific instance and everything. Like Fura or the 1st division VC showing up again despite his excuse for being missing being bollocks. All I know is that after Tenso Jurrin activated the size of the dragon went from body size to the size of a freaking building, and it follows the more water = more power logic for him. Hence there's more than enough evidence to call a boost in power there.
It wasn't necessarily building size. I think your using this panel right here. http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-chapter-132-page-6.html
True if you look at it from a 2D perspective, it does seem as wide as the building. But you need to look at it from a 3D perspective and consider the distance of that building relative to the water. Anyways, look at the bottom of the panel. You can see the edge of a roof and notice the two small blocks of wood relative to the water. I'm not gonna go out and say they were 2 by 4s, but I think you can kinda get the idea of where I'm going with this. Besides, this panel right here gives us a clear picture of how big the dragon was. http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-chapter-132-page-4.html As you can see, there's not a huge difference in size compared to this dragon with no Tenso Jurin. http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-chapter-231-page-3.html

Further until Kira proves he can dodge, his statement is frankly fact. He can't dodge a dragon not aimed at him, plain and simple. He could not possibly have stated that clearer. Maybe it's only a Tenso Jurrin enhance dragon of such massive size and he could plausibly dodge the littler ones, but otherwise there's literally no point in arguing against a fact outright stated by the character in question.
First of all, Kira was basically 2 feet away from Gin. So there's no big difference of whether or not the dragon was aiming at him, in my opinion. Second, Kira technically did dodge the dragon seeing how he barely jumped out of the dragon's range in the 2nd panel http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-chapter-132-page-6.html.
When he said it was impossible to avoid, I think he meant it was impossible to avoid the after effects of the splashing water. He never said it was impossible to avoid a direct hit(That's the point I'm trying to make btw). This is how I see it. If Kira literally meant it was impossible to avoid a direct hit, then he actually contradicted himself seeing he already avoided a direct hit earlier. I hear people around here saying there's no plausible way for Kira to avoid the attack. That's just idiotic. I can understand if Hitsugaya launches an ice dragon from close-mid range. But people don't even consider a scenario where Hitsugaya launches an ice dragon from long range. Would they still say there would be no plausible way for Kira to dodge it? I don't think so.
That's why I earlier stated it only really depends on distance if whether or not Kira can avoid it.

Similarly Hitsugaya's already shown he can blitz both Kira and Hinamori at the same time before either realize what the hell. That he didn't use shunpo at all when chasing Kira (This point is non arguable mind you) is more plot shenanigan's than anything else. It's kinda like how spiritual senses only work when the plot demands it, otherwise we have people splitting up in enemy territory for no good reason.
That's not a blitz. A blitz is when you defeat someone's perception of speed with your own physical speed. That means the victim would have to be tracking their opponent. Neither Kira or Hinamori were tracking Hitsugaya in the first place.
Not sure what Shenanigan means, but anyways. Yeah, Hitsugaya didn't use shunpo. But at the same time, Kira didn't use shunpo too. You could say Hitsugaya couldn't catch him because the plot demanded it, but nothing takes away the fact that the scene happened. Besides, Hitsugaya would've had every reason to blitz Kira after seeing C46 massacred. I'm not saying Hitsugaya is slow btw. I'm just saying Kira is faster than you guys think.

I don't think that is necessarily the case. Hitsugaya has made it clear tenso jurin is not something he can quite control. In that sense, if he had used it from the start he would have gotten in other captains fights. Even when he did decide to use it he had to wait enough for his bankai to not be at his best and have something he could manage.
He was referring to HH. Hitsugaya can control his other regular ice attacks fine. I mean, it's not like he's gonna uncontrollably summon ten thousand ice dragons in every direction..

Random101
October 26, 2010, 11:34 PM
Building size != that building size. You have a point in that the perspective scews it, though frankly while the ice dragon isn't bigger than it overally it's close enough to not matter, but if you even remotely think that those two dragons are the same size before AND after Tenso Jurrin activates rest assured you are very very wrong in that regard.

Let me put it this way, Gin flash steps to the point above the roof on the other side where that little division symbol is and crouched down he's roughly the same size as it, ergo about Hitsugaya height (/short joke). The dragon dwarfs that symbol extremely in that panel, what with that building being taller than the one in question. For a more direct comparison however, the splash back, ie the tiny bits compared to the core body of the dragon on the bottom where it's connecting with the ground? That's where Kira's jumping out from, and they might as well be ocean waves considering the sizes involved. That thing is way more massive than it was before the clouds formed. No if ands or buts. Bar some art fub on Kubo's part, which given the Kira part is a hard case to argue, that thing was huge.

Granted it may or may not be because of Tenso Jurrin (Until it's explicitly stated it's up in the air), but the logic definitely flies given what we know. More water = more power and all that jazz.

Further you do have a point that he could have meant the splashing water, but ultimately that line of discussion is splitting hairs. In order for him to not be incapacitated by it, he basically has to avoid all of it, because the splashing water that did hit him completely took him out of the fight. If he can't do that much there's simply not a lot he can do. Doubly so because he's mainly effective at close range.

Moreover, a blitz requires you to at some point move before the opponent can react to your presence. You don't have to be looking at them, so long as it's not a complete sneak attack and at some point you end up in front of them, that's a blitz, because before they could realize what the hell you were there and they couldn't do diddly about it. Starrk showing up out of nowhere to grab Orihime? Blitz. Yoruichi showing out of nowhere and negating Byakuya's shikai with cloth? Blitz. Hitsugaya showing up out of nowhere and blocking both Hinamori and Kira at the same time before they could tell what the hell? Blitz.

Granted I've never actually looked up how it's used colloquially, but that's what I've always used. Those parameters are basically only invalid if the blitz in question happened entirely outside someone's perspective, ie: Backstab, which was not the case. Because to blitz someone you have to be fast enough that they can't do anything even when you're in motion right in front of them. As if their reactions were high enough as well as their speed sudden changes like that are hardly an issue (Save again if it happens outside their perspective, which is where backstabbing comes in).

Finally given both of them aren't using shunpo, you're basically comparing a grown dude's casual running pace as I recall (Can't remember if they're were speed lines or not sadly, but I do recall the anime made it look damn slow all the same) to someone with the body of a child's. You're not comparing their speeds there, Shunpo's where it's going to be at. Not a good argument to go down.

Gran Maestro
October 27, 2010, 04:51 AM
Moreover, a blitz requires you to at some point move before the opponent can react to your presence. You don't have to be looking at them, so long as it's not a complete sneak attack and at some point you end up in front of them, that's a blitz, because before they could realize what the hell you were there and they couldn't do diddly about it. Starrk showing up out of nowhere to grab Orihime? Blitz. Yoruichi showing out of nowhere and negating Byakuya's shikai with cloth? Blitz. Hitsugaya showing up out of nowhere and blocking both Hinamori and Kira at the same time before they could tell what the hell? Blitz.

Granted I've never actually looked up how it's used colloquially, but that's what I've always used. Those parameters are basically only invalid if the blitz in question happened entirely outside someone's perspective, ie: Backstab, which was not the case. Because to blitz someone you have to be fast enough that they can't do anything even when you're in motion right in front of them. As if their reactions were high enough as well as their speed sudden changes like that are hardly an issue (Save again if it happens outside their perspective, which is where backstabbing comes in).

I'm a bit confused, don't you contradict yourself? You say "to blitz someone you have to be fast enough that they can't do anything even when you're in motion right in front of them" but then you give examples in which some people (who were totally out of other people's perception) appear on the battlefield out of the blue.

My definition is a bit different: "to blitz someone" = "to attack the opponent (who is aware of your existence and attack possibility on the battlefield and who is in a calm state of mind) so fast that the opponent's reaction speed to your movement can be overcome, making the opponent defenseless against the attack". Hitsugaya, Yoruichi and Stark were all out of their opponents' perception until they made their appearance which invalidates the "blitz" property.

Your examples don't show that Hitsugaya can blitz Kira (or Yoruichi can blitz Byakuya, or Stark can blitz Kenpachi). If these people were on the battlefield as enemies and if they directly attacked their opponents giving them no chance to dodge/block because of their overwhelming speed, only then it would count as "blitz". So unless the battle conditions in the first post state that Hitsugaya will attack Hisagi, Kira, Ikkaku and Renji who will have no idea that they're about to get attacked by Hitsugaya, the "blitz" argument is kinda superfluous.

[OFF TOPIC]
A speedblitz is a comparison of someone's movement speed and another person's reflex speed. I've seen lots of arguments like "Alice is faster than Bob, therefore Alice can speedblitz Bob and win" or "Alice dodged Bob's attack, therefore Alice is (almost) as fast as Bob." No, things don't work that way, reflex speed is not directly proportional to movement speed, they are different concepts.

Kenpachi doesn't know shunpo and he is one of the slowest captains but his reflex speed is unearthly which let him dodge attacks from a most likely faster captain even without seeing the attacks coming. You can outrun Kenpachi in a race but there's no way you can speedblitz someone who has such monstrous reflexes. For example, IMO Stark can outrun Kenpachi by a far margin but he can't speedblitz Kenpachi if he attacks him with a sword.

When Aizen attacked Urahara's fake, I've seen people say "Urahara is very fast." Yes, Urahara is fast, his reflex speed is fast. People are always mixing reflex speed up with movement speed. Urahara's reflex speed needs to be fast since he trained and kept up with Yoruichi. Urahara doesn't have to be moving as fast as Yoruichi to keep up with Yoruichi. Renji doesn't have to be as fast as Byakuya to block his attacks. Hisagi doesn't have to be as fast as hollow Tousen to dodge his attacks, it all depends on reflexes.
[/OFF TOPIC]

Random101
October 27, 2010, 09:21 AM
You say "to blitz someone you have to be fast enough that they can't do anything even when you're in motion right in front of them" but then you give examples in which some people (who were totally out of other people's perception) appear on the battlefield out of the blue.
Because in those specific examples they come from the outside only to move directly in front of them, often so fast that they accomplish their goal before their opponent realizes what the hell. In those cases though they do come from outside their perspective, it's that they appear in it for an interval and the opposing side can't react and more importantly doesn't see them move in to do what they did directly in front of them that makes them count as a blitz. Yoruichi appears directly in front of Byakuya and he can't do crap, he doesn't see her until she's already there and by then she's already got his sword disabled. Starrk appears directly in front of all three and they don't notice until he's already there, this despite both having a far wider scope of sight to see him coming. Hitsugaya appears directly in front of Hinamori and Kira and they don't notice till their swords are already intercepted.

That's blitzing right there with the definition I run with. Because they moved so fast that even whey they moved directly in front of them the opposition couldn't do jack and didn't notice till it was already too late.

Gran Maestro
October 27, 2010, 11:49 AM
Hmm, "to move directly in front of them" suggests the movement starts and ends in front of the opponent. If the movement starts when the opponent is not aware of the attacker's intention to attack, it's normal for the attacker to catch the opponent off-guard and accomplish his goal. Shunpo (a.k.a. Flash step) is the ability to cover a great distance in one step with tremendous speed. If your opponent doesn't notice your presence, you can shunpo near him from a distance and there's no way for him to anticipate your movement. This is nothing but surprise factor. You may choose to stab your opponent (backstab) or you may choose to do something else like intercepting swords or blocking a shikai. I don't see how exactly doing something to someone is an impressive feat if this person doesn't know you're coming. Anybody who knows shunpo can surprise another person.

Random101
October 27, 2010, 02:29 PM
The problem being you can directly follow flash steps with your eyes even if you didn't necessarily see them go into the step in question. You are indeed correct that they can surprise another person with flash steps, but this is via backstabbery in which all the motion is pretty much outside your effective perspective (Ie: Not DIRECTLY in front of you, as I suppose a couple of cases from the side probably are a tad more arguable). When they are at any point in front of them however this grace is exempted, and it's a blitz by my definition. Mainly because there are several cases in which despite only seeing the person in question for a small portion of the movement, they were still able to effectively counter and block. Ichigo turning his back to Byakuya to grab his sword and still being able to block more or less flawlessly being a particularly good example of this case.

Were there not cases of this I'd buy that particular argument to justify those specific cases, but as it stands if you're about even in terms of reaction speed vs. movement speed you don't need to be watching the movement from the start to effectively react. If they however can effectively show up where ever the hell they want right in front of you and you don't notice until it's too late however your reactions aren't up to snuff and you are very likely to get blitzed.

Especially if they can show up right in your personal bubble and deflect your attacks from both ends no sweat. I mean at that point even arguing that being the case you're dead the moment you get even a little bit distracted. Like say by giant ice dragon that you must dodge all of otherwise you're out of the picture anyway.

conn-man
October 27, 2010, 02:49 PM
i say right off the bat that renji and ikkakus bankais will be to strong for the ice to hold them down.

i dont think hitsuguyas skills are all that much better than a vice captain, its his power that allows him to be a captain. most of that power lies in his bankai so if he cant use that i say these four can beat him.

Gran Maestro
October 27, 2010, 03:46 PM
Mainly because there are several cases in which despite only seeing the person in question for a small portion of the movement, they were still able to effectively counter and block. Ichigo turning his back to Byakuya to grab his sword and still being able to block more or less flawlessly being a particularly good example of this case.

I guess you're referring to this:

http://mangable.com/bleach/chapter-152/18/

In this instance, Ichigo sensed Byakuya's reiatsu and acted accordingly:

http://mangable.com/bleach/chapter-152/17/

It seems most of the time people don't bother to use their reiatsu sense to realize the imminent danger before it's too late, they mostly rely on their eyes. Kubo conveniently turns their reiatsu sense on and off. :)

Look at this, Ichigo interfered with the execution right before the eyes of Gotei 13 captains and none of them saw it coming:

http://mangable.com/bleach/chapter-150/23-24/

http://mangable.com/bleach/chapter-151/07/

Ichigo even blocked Aizen's sword:

http://mangable.com/bleach/chapter-173/18/

VCs could cut the throats of captains if they wanted to, Hisagi is standing at Tousen's side:

http://mangable.com/bleach/chapter-177/18/

Shinji dodged a similar attack from Tousen but Tousen failed to counter Hisagi. I have my doubts about every speed feat which is against an opponent who hasn't been aware of the attacker's presence beforehand. I don't think Kubo meant to show Hitsugaya's impressive speed compared to Kira and Hinamori. Hitsugaya may be faster than Kira but I don't think Kira's reaction speed is so slow that Hitsugaya can cut him down without Kira being able to react.

Random101
October 27, 2010, 04:47 PM
I'd assume giant blazing bird makes it hard to see insignificant speck of a dude, Aizen really wasn't trying by his own admission to crush them (Seriously, we both know what would have happened if he was, he outright states he's trying not to outright destroy them), and I think Tousen's got a bit more than Hisagi to worry about in that crowd. Throw in that it's from behind Tousen's line of sight (Directly in front is what you want) and Tousen's blind and eh... Tousen's a hard case to argue in the first place since he has no perception and has to rely on spirit senses.

Which brings me to my next point. I do agree Reiatsu sense is an on off thing that helps or hinders depending on when Kubo decides it's be nifty to throw it in. That the way it works is so arbitrary and that plot shenanigans are often in the way do not help, at all. Regardless my core point remains, it's a blitz by my definition.

Mind you though, I do not hold a blitz as an entirely reliable thing. Just blitzing someone once with ease doesn't mean you'd be able to do it all the time unless it's a particularly notable one (ie: Starrk completely disappearing from Ichigo's view even when carrying a person or the like). But that the possibility exists suggests a gap none the less, especially in the more up in your face cases like this one. How large is arguable, but I'd think it goes without saying that it's definitely there.

Omiem
October 27, 2010, 09:59 PM
Building size != that building size. You have a point in that the perspective scews it, though frankly while the ice dragon isn't bigger than it overally it's close enough to not matter, but if you even remotely think that those two dragons are the same size before AND after Tenso Jurrin activates rest assured you are very very wrong in that regard.


Let me put it this way, Gin flash steps to the point above the roof on the other side where that little division symbol is and crouched down he's roughly the same size as it, ergo about Hitsugaya height (/short joke). The dragon dwarfs that symbol extremely in that panel, what with that building being taller than the one in question. For a more direct comparison however, the splash back, ie the tiny bits compared to the core body of the dragon on the bottom where it's connecting with the ground? That's where Kira's jumping out from, and they might as well be ocean waves considering the sizes involved. That thing is way more massive than it was before the clouds formed. No if ands or buts. Bar some art fub on Kubo's part, which given the Kira part is a hard case to argue, that thing was huge.

Granted it may or may not be because of Tenso Jurrin (Until it's explicitly stated it's up in the air), but the logic definitely flies given what we know. More water = more power and all that jazz.
I don't get where your going with this scene. http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-chapter-132-page-7.html
I don't see any panels that dwarfs the symbol. If your talking about the bottom middle panel, then that's actually Gin slicing through the dragon. That's why the water is split in two and is also why it seems bigger.
The panel of where Kira is jumping out of the "ocean waves" is him dodging the splash back. There's no doubt that the splash back is huge, but we can't use that as a reliable source for measuring the actual size of the dragon. For example, look at Harribel's Cascada technique. http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-chapter-370-page-20.html
As you can see, the splash back is much wider than the width of the actual attack itself.
Even though I gave you a clear picture of the entire size of the dragon earlier, you seem to deny it. So I'll just refute you with this one link.
http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-chapter-132-page-5.html
Pretty self explanatory in the 7th panel, and remember that this is during Tenso Jurin.

Further you do have a point that he could have meant the splashing water, but ultimately that line of discussion is splitting hairs. In order for him to not be incapacitated by it, he basically has to avoid all of it, because the splashing water that did hit him completely took him out of the fight. If he can't do that much there's simply not a lot he can do. Doubly so because he's mainly effective at close range.
Well I never denied that Kira would be in a pretty bad shape if he does get hit by the splash back. I'm just trying to point out that there is a plausible way for Kira to dodge the attack, because it really all depends on distance. Anyways, there's no proof of whether or not Kira was totally incapacitated at that time. Sure he was down for a moment, but it wasn't like his entire body was frozen solid. Give him enough time, and he should eventually break out of the ice. Of course in a 1v1 or 2v1, Kira isn't gonna have that time. But since this is a 4v1, then he at least has a chance. I do agree though that Kira isn't really gonna be the biggest threat to Hitsugaya in this fight. But he is highly proficient in kidou, which can help keep Hitsugaya on his toes. That's really the only usefulness I see in Kira for this battle.

Moreover, a blitz requires you to at some point move before the opponent can react to your presence. You don't have to be looking at them, so long as it's not a complete sneak attack and at some point you end up in front of them, that's a blitz, because before they could realize what the hell you were there and they couldn't do diddly about it. Starrk showing up out of nowhere to grab Orihime? Blitz. Yoruichi showing out of nowhere and negating Byakuya's shikai with cloth? Blitz. Hitsugaya showing up out of nowhere and blocking both Hinamori and Kira at the same time before they could tell what the hell? Blitz.

Granted I've never actually looked up how it's used colloquially, but that's what I've always used. Those parameters are basically only invalid if the blitz in question happened entirely outside someone's perspective, ie: Backstab, which was not the case. Because to blitz someone you have to be fast enough that they can't do anything even when you're in motion right in front of them. As if their reactions were high enough as well as their speed sudden changes like that are hardly an issue (Save again if it happens outside their perspective, which is where backstabbing comes in).
It seems your definition of a blitz isn't the same as mine. So going by your logic, Komamura "blitzed" Tousen.
http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-chapter-380-page-6.html
Tell me, do you think the same thing will happen again if this time Tousen was paying more attention to Komamura instead of Shinji? I don't think so. Same logic can be applied to the Hitsugaya/Kira/Hinamori scene.

Finally given both of them aren't using shunpo, you're basically comparing a grown dude's casual running pace as I recall (Can't remember if they're were speed lines or not sadly, but I do recall the anime made it look damn slow all the same) to someone with the body of a child's. You're not comparing their speeds there, Shunpo's where it's going to be at. Not a good argument to go down.
There were speed lines in that scene. http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-chapter-168-page-14.html
Since you say shunpo is where it's going to be at, then let me show you Kira's. http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-chapter-332-page-19.html
http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-chapter-332-page-20.html
Even though it was only a fraccion, you can't deny what Kira did was pretty fast, regardless. Anyways, the whole point of the Hitsugaya not being able to catch Kira scene isn't to show Kira is faster or Hitsugaya is slower. It's to show that Kira isn't gonna get KO'd that easily like how Shawlong was. I do think Hitsugaya is faster than Kira, but the gap isn't gonna be so wide to the point where Kira gets owned badly. Because if the gap was really that wide, then Hitsugaya should've instantly blitzed right in front of Kira no problem, and then do the questioning with Matsumoto cornering him.

Waking_Dreamer
October 27, 2010, 10:17 PM
i dont think hitsuguyas skills are all that much better than a vice captain, its his power that allows him to be a captain. most of that power lies in his bankai so if he cant use that i say these four can beat him.

IDK. Hitsugaya's skirmish with Gin made them look pretty equal.

Gin completely avoided the first dragon which Kira a VC admitted at that time he couldnt have avoided, be it main attack or splash effect.

Then Gin was suprised and caught by Hitsugaya's shikai chain dealing with the second dragon.

Gin >>>> Kira,
shikai Gin approx. = shikai Hitsugaya

Therefore, non-bankai Hitsugaya >>>> Kira/majority of VCs...

Random101
October 27, 2010, 11:42 PM
The panel of where Kira is jumping out of the "ocean waves" is him dodging the splash back.
Height not width. The splashing is not remotely as high up as the diameter of the dragon. This isn't that hard a comparison to make dude. There was enough to more or less completely 'submerge' him comparison wise alone in that panel means the dragon got friggin massive. Throw in everything else and I honestly have to ask if you're looking at the same image as I am, because that thing is not remotely child size in diameter by any stretch of the imagination once it gets to that panel.


Anyways, there's no proof of whether or not Kira was totally incapacitated at that time.
The splashback completely incapacitated his arms and legs in one shot, this despite the fact that not a panel earlier he had been at best mildly drenched overall (Though admittedly it's hard to tell this in art and the freezing happened ALARMINGLY fast immediately after). When Gin left Kira was sprawled on the ground unable to follow (edit: Actually when Gin stopped now that I look back, but same difference). Ergo he was completely incapacitated.


It seems your definition of a blitz isn't the same as mine. So going by your logic, Komamura "blitzed" Tousen.
http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-...80-page-6.html
I direct you to my previous response regarding him. Tousen's blind, ergo cannot be blitzed, due to the fact that he has absolutely zero range of scope with which to react with, and has to rely completely on energy sensing. In layman's terms he's a complete wildcard for any kind of reaction comparison because frankly he shouldn't be able to in the normal sense. Whatever feats he does do are entirely up to energy sensing.

And energy sensing is so inconsistent and friggin arbitrary based on plot that going down that discussion is an exercise in headaches and pain.


Even though it was only a fraccion, you can't deny what Kira did was pretty fast, regardless. Anyways, the whole point of the Hitsugaya not being able to catch Kira scene isn't to show Kira is faster or Hitsugaya is slower.
Oh he's got speed against a fraccion. Problem: That's speed against a fraccion. Moot point since we both agree he's faster though, but ultimately this entire route is splitting hairs in the long run. What we've learned: Hitsugaya is faster, more ranged and more importantly not pretty much exclusively close ranged for any kind of decent offensive, can incapacitate even with near misses, and pretty much has him utterly defeated in base power too. Why are we discussing this then?


Because if the gap was really that wide, then Hitsugaya should've instantly blitzed right in front of Kira no problem, and then do the questioning with Matsumoto cornering him.
Yes he should have. And despite him having shunpo he didn't. Why? Plot obviously. Granted it's quite annoying to hear someone harping on this, but there is literally NO denying this, no matter how hard you grasp at straws for excuses.

There are certain examples in manga, or any medium really, in which you absolutely cannot deny they happened only because the plot needed them to. A character chasing someone down, conveniently forgetting something as simple as a GODDAMN INSTANT MOVEMENT TECH, when they proved entirely capable of blitzing them previously (And don't you dare argue definition on this one, Izuru's back was turned in several points during that, so there's literally no arguing he could have followed it either way) is something that screams plot plain and simple.

On the speed lines: Ah, so that was the anime I was thinking of (Same with the scene in which Gin left Kira behind still frozen funnily enough). Still not shunpo though so I suppose point is moot regardless.

kkck
October 28, 2010, 12:22 AM
I want to point out hitsugaya's shikai is not necessarily limited to the dragon.
http://www.cloudmanga.com/Bleach/132/#7
This is not the actual dragon, just some random water hitsugaya threw at gin. The VCs just have to deal with too much. lets take what happened here. hitsugaya threw a dragon and then immediately proceeded to attack once again with an attack that had similar size and area of effect as the dragon. There is also a very real possibility hitsugaya can use actual techniques aside from the dragon. Is there anything realistic about the VCs surviving a lesser version of hyoten kyakatsu? Hitsugaya has too much in his favor for the VCs to have a chance. Heck, with tenso jurin he invariably gets home advantage....
[hr]
That said, I don't quite get why the situation with bankai renji against hitsugaya be any different than the one of bankai renji against byakuya. Renji knew almost every move byakuya had and still byakuya barely had to release. Byakuya's shikai was also able to separate the segments no problem and also his mid level kido. There is not a single reasonable scenario where it makes a shred of sense for renji's bankai to do against hitsugaya anymore than what it did against byakuya and the same thing (perhaps even worst) goes for ikkaku.

Gran Maestro
October 28, 2010, 03:22 AM
Renji knew almost every move byakuya had and still byakuya barely had to release. Byakuya's shikai was also able to separate the segments no problem and also his mid level kido.

I pointed this out earlier but since you repeated the same argument again, it seems you don't read posts carefully, I hope you pay more attention this time. :)

Byakuya didn't separate the segments, Renji did it on purpose, Byakuya's shikai was useless against Renji's bankai:

http://read.mangashare.com/Bleach/chapter-141/page016.html

Byakuya made Renji lost control with Hadou 33 because it was Renji's first fight with his bankai:

http://read.mangashare.com/Bleach/chapter-142/page008.html

Byakuya says "I used kidou to disrupt the rhythm of your bankai" and Renji admits that he lost control:

http://read.mangashare.com/Bleach/chapter-142/page007.html

So unless you argue that we're talking about the good old Renji who has little control over his bankai, only then you can compare Byakuya with Hitsugaya. Hitsugaya uses Hadou 33 and finishes Renji's bankai.

But if Renji, after so many battles and training, improved his control over his bankai and if his bankai is now strong enough to resist kidou, then I don't see where you're coming from. The only thing is if Renji forces Hitsugaya to his knees as he did to Byakuya, Hitsugaya will get killed instantly:

http://read.mangashare.com/Bleach/chapter-141/page018.html

Can you imagine that? Byakuya was against just one opponent and he still had problems. Hitsugaya will be against three more opponents who will hurt him at the first opening and if Renji managed to create a lot of problems against Byakuya's full attention, I don't see how Hitsugaya will take care of Renji's bankai while he is trying to contain the attacks of others.

The only advantage of Hitsugaya is that his shikai is much more useful than Byakuya's shikai. If Hitsugaya has a chance, it's because his ice is very effective against shinigami. If we had Gin's or Byakuya's shikai vs two VC bankai + two skillful VCs, I don't think the captains would have an easy time.

kkck
October 28, 2010, 08:04 AM
Learning how to control bankai is something that would require a decade. In that sense, renji has had little time to have any significant improvement with his bankai, at most a couple of months. He has not had nearly enough time to make a difference. Renji splitting the segments on purpose makes little difference. He made it clear, he did it to avoid the attack. The most likely scenario is that byakuya would have caused quite a bit of damage renji's bankai had he actually taken the attack which would not be good for him. That said, the fight ended here (http://read.mangashare.com/Bleach/chapter-142/page010.html) before byakuya used his bankai. At that moment byakuya did not need bankai nor anything of the sort to end it, it was simply overkill. Difference is hitsugaya could do something similar to renji by merely getting him wet, he does not even need kido just the after effect of any of his attacks to reach renji.

Gran Maestro
October 28, 2010, 09:26 AM
The fight ended when Renji lost control because he wouldn't stand a chance without bankai. Byakuya bound Renji while Renji was stubbornly trying to regain control of his bankai. I don't think anybody who knows Bakudo 61 can make short work of Renji, it's oversimplification, they need an opening to bind him and the situation in the fight provided this opening for Byakuya. Byakuya didn't need his bankai to defeat Renji but he would definitely need his bankai if Renji had better control, this is how the fight was portrayed. Byakuya didn't overpower Renji's bankai, he took advantage of Renji's inexperience.

Since we know that an experienced bankai user can create problems for a captain, how can we say that Ikkaku wouldn't make much difference in a fight? If he has enough control, he's a potential danger unless we argue that Renji is much more powerful than Ikkaku or Hitsugaya is much more powerful than Byakuya. People with bankai are extraordinary, they shouldn't be underestimated. Any bankai user with enough experience is a potential captain, this is the whole point of Ikkaku character and his secret bankai.

Under normal circumstances, people need a decade to master their bankai but Renji gained lots of experience in a short amount of time due to lots of training and fights in arrancar arc. I won't be surprised if Renji masters his bankai in a short amount of time and Kubo hinted that he and Hisagi may be much stronger the next time we see them fight. I also expect a bankai from Hisagi, he proved his worth against Tousen in FKT battles.

I don't think Hitsugaya can freeze and instantly defeat Ikkaku and Renji's bankai, IMO his shikai attacks don't have enough reiatsu to accomplish this feat, they can simply break up his ice. When Hitsugaya attacks Renji, he is in danger of getting attacked by Ikkaku and when Hitsugaya attacks Ikkaku, he is in danger of getting attacked by Renji. He can't defeat their bankai easily and if he can't defeat them easily, his opponents can put him in a tough position. I don't even count the surprise attacks of Kira and Hisagi. The others won't sit back and watch while Hitsugaya is taking them on one by one, they will attack Hitsugaya together from different directions. Hitsugaya is in constant danger of getting backstabbed or bound by a bakudo.

kkck
October 28, 2010, 12:13 PM
You make it sound as if renji could never regain control of his bankai once it was hit by the kido. I don't think it was the case at all and we did see him use his bankai right before byakuya used the kido on him.

Ikkaku's bankai works in short range exclusively. That is a major disadvantage in this fight. In that sense, even if he has a considerble amount of destructive power it does not make a difference if his chances of connecting an attack with it are the same as with his shikai. Renji at least can keep himself from hitsugaya while he attacks but ikkaku in turn would be exposed to every bit of water hitsugaya has. Do we have any reason to believe ikkaku is anywhere near hitsugaya in terms of speed? It would not make s shred of sense, at most ikkaku was on part with a released fraccion while in turn hitsugaya while being half dead managed to blits a similar fraccion. Ikkaku does not strike me as being any different in terms of speed with people like kira or hisagi, even with bankai he won't be able to avoid the water.

Also, you are making it sound as if hitsugaya can only take one of them at a time. Hitsugaya shikai has already shown it covers large areas at great speeds. Heck, one he uses tenso juurin all the water in the atmosphere should pretty much be part of his shikai. Even if hitsugaya is attacking only one of them the rest would still have to take cover to avoid the splash following the attacks. I also don't think even with their bankais they can break out of the ice. Harribel was a freaking espada and could not break hitsugaya's bankai ice on her own, I don't think it would make sense for VCs to be able to break from hitsugaya's shikai ice. It's not like hitsugaya only has captain level power with bankai and renji or ikkaku jump from VC level to captain level with theirs.

Gran Maestro
October 28, 2010, 03:42 PM
Byakuya wasn't generous enough to give enough time to Renji to let him regain control and reattack with his bankai. Renji couldn't use his bankai for any useful purpose before he got tied up with Bakudo 61, this is more than enough evidence that he was struggling. Being able to move your zanpakuto doesn't mean you're in total control as can be seen in the page where Renji lost control (http://read.mangashare.com/Bleach/chapter-142/page007.html). Renji's only option was to turn back to shikai but it wouldn't help much other than prolonging the fight a bit more.

Was Ikkaku's bankai on par with a released fraccion? I doubt it. Just like Hitsugaya was half dead when the reiatsu limiters were released, Ikkaku was half dead when he went bankai. Ikkaku didn't need to have reiatsu limiters, he basically limited himself. Both Hitsugaya and Ikkaku managed to defeat their opponents in their half dead state and then they both collapsed, there's a striking resemblance in their fights. Hitsugaya's opponent seemed to be the more powerful of the two because he was in charge but I must say Edrad's resurreccion was far more impressive.

Ikkaku doesn't seem to be a particularly fast fighter but I don't think the speed difference is such that Ikkaku will have trouble following Hitsugaya's movement. Ikkaku is a short range fighter but can Hitsugaya keep him at a distance if he is busy with Renji's bankai? It was enough distraction for Byakuya, why would it be any different for Hitsugaya? Once Ikkaku gets close, Hitsugaya will be in trouble.

Hitsugaya trapped Harribel with his bankai powers, we don't know the power extent of Tenso Jurin in shikai. If his bankai isn't significantly more powerful than his shikai, then Hitsugaya's bankai is redundant. If his shikai is significantly less powerful than his bankai, then there's no reason to assume that his ice attacks will be strong enough to destroy Ikkaku's or Renji's bankai by freezing them. In a worst case scenario, Ikkaku can cover his body with the huge blades and he can resist the freezing effect of the water that touched his body because he is physically much stronger than Kira.

And do we have any reason to assume that the splash can go that far? Hinamori was lying helplessly (http://mangable.com/bleach/chapter-131/17/) when the fight started and she didn't get exposed (http://mangable.com/bleach/chapter-132/11/) to any of the ice attacks. The only reason why Kira had problem avoiding the splash is because he was standing three feet away from Gin. And I must say Kira wasn't in right state of mind for battle, he was still in awe of Hitsugaya's powers (http://mangable.com/bleach/chapter-132/05/). I think he can do better if he keeps his cool, stays at a relatively safe distance and uses binding kido whenever he finds the opportunity.

Random101
October 28, 2010, 03:48 PM
Actually in terms of straight up damage Hitsugaya was in far worse shape than Ikkaku was. At absolute worst he had some burns and blunt trauma to worry about, Hitsugaya was quite literally shredded the entire time.

Gran Maestro
October 28, 2010, 04:52 PM
Actually in terms of straight up damage Hitsugaya was in far worse shape than Ikkaku was. At absolute worst he had some burns and blunt trauma to worry about, Hitsugaya was quite literally shredded the entire time.

Are you sure, who seems to be in worse shape?

Here's Ikkaku:

http://mangable.com/bleach/chapter-204/21/

Here's Hitsugaya:

http://mangable.com/bleach/chapter-210/14/

Ikkaku seems pretty messed up, these attacks were no joke:

http://mangable.com/bleach/chapter-204/17/

http://mangable.com/bleach/chapter-204/20/

Ikkaku is physically strong, this is why he was able to fight back. I'd like to see Hitsugaya after he suffered the same damage from Edrad.

Random101
October 28, 2010, 05:28 PM
Uh here's Hitsugaya: http://mangable.com/bleach/chapter-211/02/

And here's Ikkaku after even the bankai part of the fight mind you: http://mangable.com/bleach/chapter-206/16/

Keep in mind Reiatsu can close your wounds for a certain amount of time. He looks fine yes, but he was friggin shredded none the less because of that limit. And in turn was in far worse shape.

Gran Maestro
October 28, 2010, 05:45 PM
For all we know, both Hitsugaya and Ikkaku weren't in good shape when they went all out and I don't think there's a reliable way to determine the extent of damage. I don't agree with the notion that being cut is far worse than being burned and crushed.

Random101
October 28, 2010, 05:59 PM
It is far as manga goes. Mostly because it's hard to tell how bad damage is if you're crushed and the like given not all of it is visible, hence cuts far more often down people than blunt trauma. However it's blatantly obvious that at the end Hitsugaya's was in far worse shape regardless. Mostly because that is a metric crapton of blood right there. I mean seriously, that's one of the nastier wounds in the series.

Ikkaku definitely wasn't fine and dandy at the end, but it's pretty damn clear that his wounds at least weren't near the life threatening category even by normal standards (Or as normal as taking a pillar of flame can be I suppose >>).

Omiem
October 28, 2010, 07:29 PM
Height not width. The splashing is not remotely as high up as the diameter of the dragon. This isn't that hard a comparison to make dude. There was enough to more or less completely 'submerge' him comparison wise alone in that panel means the dragon got friggin massive. Throw in everything else and I honestly have to ask if you're looking at the same image as I am, because that thing is not remotely child size in diameter by any stretch of the imagination once it gets to that panel.
I feel like we've mis communicated for some reason. Anyways, I'm not denying the fact that Hitsugaya's splash back was massive. Here's a much clearer example of what I'm basing this on. http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-chapter-371-page-3.html
As you can see, Harribel's splash back has a much wider diameter than the attack itself. Not only that, but it's also pretty high as well. Hitsugaya's ice dragon made a similar splash back seeing the panel of Kira jumping out of the "ocean waves". But that's not the point. We're comparing the size of the dragons, not the splash back. It seems you keep ignoring this panel that clearly shows the dragon is not as big as you claim it to be. http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-chapter-132-page-5.html This automatically refutes your entire argument on the dragon's size.

Earlier you gave me this panel and compared the attack to the building behind it. http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-chapter-132-page-6.html
I can see where your coming from by saying the attack was, "building size". But like I said before. Your looking at it from a 2D perspective instead of a 3D perspective. In fact, this panel gives us a clearer picture of that perspective. http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-chapter-131-page-5.html You need to consider the distance between that attack, and the building behind it.
Can you see now where I'm going with this? Hopefully you do.

The splashback completely incapacitated his arms and legs in one shot, this despite the fact that not a panel earlier he had been at best mildly drenched overall (Though admittedly it's hard to tell this in art and the freezing happened ALARMINGLY fast immediately after). When Gin left Kira was sprawled on the ground unable to follow (edit: Actually when Gin stopped now that I look back, but same difference). Ergo he was completely incapacitated.
I used the wrong wordings when I earlier stated, "Anyways, there's no proof of whether or not Kira was totally incapacitated at that time." When I said "totally", I meant that there was no proof he was incapacitated forever. I'm not denying the fact that Kira was partially incapacitated at the time, but what I'm trying to point out is that he wasn't entirely frozen solid. This means the possibility of Kira eventually breaking out of the ice is still there. Don't forget that only his right arm/leg was incapacitated, not his entire body. Give him enough time, and he'll eventually break the ice with some Kidou move. In a 1v1 or 2v1, Kira won't have that time of course. But since this is a 4v1, he'll at least have a chance.

I direct you to my previous response regarding him. Tousen's blind, ergo cannot be blitzed, due to the fact that he has absolutely zero range of scope with which to react with, and has to rely completely on energy sensing. In layman's terms he's a complete wildcard for any kind of reaction comparison because frankly he shouldn't be able to in the normal sense. Whatever feats he does do are entirely up to energy sensing.

And energy sensing is so inconsistent and friggin arbitrary based on plot that going down that discussion is an exercise in headaches and pain.

Oh he's got speed against a fraccion. Problem: That's speed against a fraccion. Moot point since we both agree he's faster though, but ultimately this entire route is splitting hairs in the long run. What we've learned: Hitsugaya is faster, more ranged and more importantly not pretty much exclusively close ranged for any kind of decent offensive, can incapacitate even with near misses, and pretty much has him utterly defeated in base power too. Why are we discussing this then?


Yes he should have. And despite him having shunpo he didn't. Why? Plot obviously. Granted it's quite annoying to hear someone harping on this, but there is literally NO denying this, no matter how hard you grasp at straws for excuses.

There are certain examples in manga, or any medium really, in which you absolutely cannot deny they happened only because the plot needed them to. A character chasing someone down, conveniently forgetting something as simple as a GODDAMN INSTANT MOVEMENT TECH, when they proved entirely capable of blitzing them previously (And don't you dare argue definition on this one, Izuru's back was turned in several points during that, so there's literally no arguing he could have followed it either way) is something that screams plot plain and simple.

On the speed lines: Ah, so that was the anime I was thinking of (Same with the scene in which Gin left Kira behind still frozen funnily enough). Still not shunpo though so I suppose point is moot regardless.
Eh, I really don’t have it in me to argue on these points anymore =/

Raizen
October 28, 2010, 07:58 PM
Hitsugaya just releasing shikai nearly froze kira. Meaning just the release of his shikai should send out enough power to freeze or at least slow down the VC.

Hitsu's speed is quite fast comparable to the VCs and his attacks are dangerous. Furthermore, he is able to use quite powerful kidos. The one he used to protect hinamori is supposedly a pain in teh ass to break from the outside. So he could easily put that up to protect himself

Hitsu wins with relative difficulty but soundly

kkck
October 28, 2010, 08:11 PM
The damage ikkaku took is IMO nowhere near what hitsugaya went through. Even at the end of the fight it did not quite seem like ikkaku was dying, he was just gravely wounded at most. Even then, it took every bit of ikkaku's bankai power even though he never had a limiter on to win (unless for some reason ikkaku having a completely beat up body and a bankai reduced to an oversized handle means nothing nowadays). On the other hand hitsugaya simply blits his enemy without giving him a shred of a chance to defend. Clearly there is a huge difference between them even though hitsugaya's life was in immediate danger and ikkaku's wasn't. The way I see it, the worst case scenario for hitsugaya here is that he has to use a dragon for each VC to take them out.

Waking_Dreamer
October 28, 2010, 08:13 PM
For all we know, both Hitsugaya and Ikkaku weren't in good shape when they went all out and I don't think there's a reliable way to determine the extent of damage. I don't agree with the notion that being cut is far worse than being burned and crushed.

Well going back they both looked pretty bad with injuries.

But the question here is, does going bankai supress wounds/bleeding you previously sustained? It works when arrancar release...

Ichigo seemed to suffer no linguring injuries after he went bankai too, and his zanpakuto was shown to be able hold the bleeding if they are in sync...was this the same for Ikkaku?

EDIT: nvm they already posted links to the injuries, missed those posts when reading.

Raizen
October 28, 2010, 08:15 PM
Wait so can hitsu use bankai? If so, he should win flawlessly

In the battle at FKT, he stated he didn't use his full power and waited for his petals to lessen because at full power, the area of attack would be too great and he could potentially injure his teammates. In this situation, there is no such restrictions.

Waking_Dreamer
October 28, 2010, 08:20 PM
^ No he cant use it in this battle thread, they were just discussing the injuries they suffered so I posted references of that.

Random101
October 28, 2010, 11:11 PM
I feel like we've mis communicated for some reason. Anyways, I'm not denying the fact that Hitsugaya's splash back was massive. Here's a much clearer example of what I'm basing this on. http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-...71-page-3.html
As you can see, Harribel's splash back has a much wider diameter than the attack itself. Not only that, but it's also pretty high as well. Hitsugaya's ice dragon made a similar splash back seeing the panel of Kira jumping out of the "ocean waves". But that's not the point. We're comparing the size of the dragons, not the splash back. It seems you keep ignoring this panel that clearly shows the dragon is not as big as you claim it to be. http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-...32-page-5.html This automatically refutes your entire argument on the dragon's size.

Earlier you gave me this panel and compared the attack to the building behind it. http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-...32-page-6.html
I can see where your coming from by saying the attack was, "building size". But like I said before. Your looking at it from a 2D perspective instead of a 3D perspective. In fact, this panel gives us a clearer picture of that perspective. http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-...31-page-5.html You need to consider the distance between that attack, and the building behind it.
Can you see now where I'm going with this? Hopefully you do.
Height not width. Let me put this another way, it's how high up in the air the splashback is ascending and not how far out from the point of impact that is utterly crippling your attempts to refute this point. Bringing up Harribel is completely irrelevant in that regard because no matter how you slice it in both cases the height of the splashback was not anywhere near the size of the diameter of the core attack itself. If the height of the splashback is higher up than Kira's full size (Irrefutable we directly see it), and that same hieght is not high enough to completely overwhelm the diameter of the dragon (irrefutable, we also directly see this), then the diameter of the dragon is also, by extension, larger than Kira, ie: Bigger than kid size. This isn't that hard a concept.

Further you're attempts to refute the size based on the building being further back, while true in a sense, are irrelevant for two reasons (And trust me when I say I'm intimately familiar with this topic in general so that you're attempting to use it as evidence of a scale that could not remotely work no matter how you slice it isn't working on multiple levels here). Firstly we have a scope on the building size, because the building on the opposite side is smaller and Gin atop it barely scraps past twice the division symbol on top, thus those buildings are fairly large, two maybe three stories or thereabouts. This is important because it means that the building is significantly larger in scope than a child's size. Secondly the distance between the attack itself and the building are not anywhere near far enough to reduce to dragon's size to child level, because the kind of distance you'd need for that is huge frankly. To argue this is laughable.

I agree if the dragon was going to overwhelm the building it would come up short despite appearing larger in a 2D sense, however as someone with an actual grasp of how the 3D sense works, I can assure you it would come close (And the tail end actually might allow it to more or less cover it because funnily enough it's larger in the back end). Bare Kubo screwing up perspective on several levels (And back then he wasn't anywhere near as horrid in scaling things as he is now mind, LOLPEOLPLEARE10HEADSTALL), that thing is so much larger than kid size it's not funny.

Omiem
October 30, 2010, 05:04 PM
Height not width. Let me put this another way, it's how high up in the air the splashback is ascending and not how far out from the point of impact that is utterly crippling your attempts to refute this point. Bringing up Harribel is completely irrelevant in that regard because no matter how you slice it in both cases the height of the splashback was not anywhere near the size of the diameter of the core attack itself. If the height of the splashback is higher up than Kira's full size (Irrefutable we directly see it), and that same hieght is not high enough to completely overwhelm the diameter of the dragon (irrefutable, we also directly see this), then the diameter of the dragon is also, by extension, larger than Kira, ie: Bigger than kid size. This isn't that hard a concept.
Looks like we did mis communicate. Now are you telling me that the panels below which shows the same splash back but at different times, have the same size and proportions relative to Kira?
http://i928.photobucket.com/albums/ad127/Hidan_018/crop1-1.png
http://i928.photobucket.com/albums/ad127/Hidan_018/crop2.png
If so, then your not considering the time interval between the two panels.
Basically what I'm saying is that the splash back in the first panel isn't as big as the splash back in the second.
The 1st panel shows the moment of impact, and the 2nd panel shows the splash back increasing in size because of it's high water pressure.
Similar logic is applied to Harribel's Cascada technique.

http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-...0-page-20.html
http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-...71-page-3.html

As you can see, the splash back in the first panel isn't as big as the splash back in the second panel.
See where I'm going with this?

Further you're attempts to refute the size based on the building being further back, while true in a sense, are irrelevant for two reasons (And trust me when I say I'm intimately familiar with this topic in general so that you're attempting to use it as evidence of a scale that could not remotely work no matter how you slice it isn't working on multiple levels here). Firstly we have a scope on the building size, because the building on the opposite side is smaller and Gin atop it barely scraps past twice the division symbol on top, thus those buildings are fairly large, two maybe three stories or thereabouts. This is important because it means that the building is significantly larger in scope than a child's size. Secondly the distance between the attack itself and the building are not anywhere near far enough to reduce to dragon's size to child level, because the kind of distance you'd need for that is huge frankly. To argue this is laughable.
What do you mean the distance wasn't far enough?
*Sigh* Look at this panel on the top right.
http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-...1-page-16.html
As you can see, Gin appears larger than the building itself in a 2D sense.
In reality, we both know that isn't true. Remember that where Gin is standing at is about the same position of where the dragon landed.
So I don't get where your going with this by saying the distance wasn't far enough.

I agree if the dragon was going to overwhelm the building it would come up short despite appearing larger in a 2D sense, however as someone with an actual grasp of how the 3D sense works, I can assure you it would come close (And the tail end actually might allow it to more or less cover it because funnily enough it's larger in the back end). Bare Kubo screwing up perspective on several levels (And back then he wasn't anywhere near as horrid in scaling things as he is now mind, LOLPEOLPLEARE10HEADSTALL), that thing is so much larger than kid size it's not funny.
To be honest, why are we still discussing this? It seems you keep ignoring the panel that I gave you which automatically refutes your entire argument. So to make sure you don't ignore it this time, I'm gonna literally put it right in front of your face.
http://i928.photobucket.com/albums/ad127/Hidan_018/manga-rainbleach-ch132-061.png

Random101
October 30, 2010, 08:55 PM
If so, then your not considering the time interval between the two panels.
Basically what I'm saying is that the splash back in the first panel isn't as big as the splash back in the second.
The 1st panel shows the moment of impact, and the 2nd panel shows the splash back increasing in size because of it's high water pressure.
Similar logic is applied to Harribel's Cascada technique.
http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-...0-page-20.html
http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-...71-page-3.html
As you can see, the splash back in the first panel isn't as big as the splash back in the second panel.
See where I'm going with this?
You're pretty much proving your ignorance in this regard, yeah, I see where this is going.

You are again ignoring height and focusing on width. Particularly when you compare the two cascadas. Yes, the width grew, that's to be expected. However the height when it spreads out? Still doesn't compare at all to the actual diameter of the original attack. It couldn't, because that isn't how water works (Though mangaka and physics LOL, but either way the core point is still completely inarguable).

You're also assuming that Kira stayed inside the water for a longer interval of time just chillin rather than jumping out as quickly as he freaking could, which also doesn't help.


What do you mean the distance wasn't far enough?
*Sigh* Look at this panel on the top right. http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-...1-page-16.html
As you can see, Gin appears larger than the building itself in a 2D sense.
In reality, we both know that isn't true. Remember that where Gin is standing at is about the same position of where the dragon landed.
So I don't get where your going with this by saying the distance wasn't far enough.
Indeed he does appear larger. Know why? Because the angle of the perspective is below him pointing up (Note how we see the underneath of the roof tiles jutting out from the building quite a bit, standard for that sort of perspective. If it weren't going up we'd hardly see any of it). Know the perspective on the second image? More or less directly from the side of the building (At a weird angle from the side though, but either way we're pretty much looking dead ahead regardless, thanks to the platform underneath perspective wise). Trust me when I say I know what I'm talking about here. Your arguments simply aren't valid in this case.

Edit: Further, because I missed this, by distance I mean that in order for that dragon to still be kid sized despite the building, the building would have to be significantly farther back than it is. The scale alone is what's shooting your arguments to pieces here, the Kira size comparison is frankly icing on the already quite irrefutable cake. Keep in mind a kid in size comparison to a three story building (Roughly, might be two but frankly it's freaking hard to tell given the height doesn't have any decent scale) is very small, extremely so. In order for the building to be that small compared to it (In the 2D sense you keep assuming I'm talking about), the dragon would have to be a distance on the order of several blocks away from it. And no matter how you slice it they were nowhere near that far away from either building.

Granted though it's hard to discuss scale without a deep grounding in the way it works (Got into a several page discussion on how far away bloody Barragon was from Soifon in one panel thanks to this that completely blew over the other guys head, forced me to go into deep discussions on how perspective works and show him how small buildings in japan can get before we were both told to STFU before we got anywhere), but suffice to say the building is quite simply too close to them for your 3D argument to remotely fly, particularly since you seem to lack significant perspective in this particular facet.

Let me put it this way again, unless it was a significant art fub, which is not impossible but this is again why the Kira bit is icing on the cake, that dragon, while still smaller than the building, is still far larger than kid sized in diameter. From the 3D sense mind you.


To be honest, why are we still discussing this? It seems you keep ignoring the panel that I gave you which automatically refutes your entire argument. So to make sure you don't ignore it this time, I'm gonna literally put it right in front of your face.
Yay, you proved that it was still that size when Tenso Jurrin was activating. Yay. Now afterwords it's close to the size of that building there. Irrefutably none the less. The more accurate question is why are you still arguing that case. While you are correct that the 3d dimensions means it's not as big or larger, it's still far, FAR larger than kid size to say the friggin least.

Waking_Dreamer
October 30, 2010, 11:08 PM
Okay lets see if I can conclude this debate.

1. Gin and Kira are on wooden the platform.
2. Dragon Hits and splashes on wooden platform.
3. Kira is completely submerged in dragon splash effect before jumping out of it.

So i made things as simple as I could and placed a standing Kira on the wooden platform as well NEXT to the dragon?

Now, what proportion of the following images seems to fit the panel the most reasonably.....?

Other posters can just drop in and say which Kira seems to fit the most...?

Kira1: http://i204.photobucket.com/albums/bb57/Jonas64/KiraDragon1.jpg

Kira2: http://i204.photobucket.com/albums/bb57/Jonas64/KiraDragon2.jpg

Kira3: http://i204.photobucket.com/albums/bb57/Jonas64/KiraDragon3.jpg

Kira4: http://i204.photobucket.com/albums/bb57/Jonas64/KiraDragon4.jpg

Kira5: http://i204.photobucket.com/albums/bb57/Jonas64/KiraDragon5.jpg

Broken_Wing
October 30, 2010, 11:52 PM
Im going to have to say between Kira 4 and 5 seems the most proportionate...

Random101
October 31, 2010, 12:27 AM
Oh wow, I was thinking art perspective this whole time when I could have just ended it with common bloody sense. Now I feel really stupid.

Well there you go, Kira has to jump out of it, meaning that if it were kid sized he would be visible somewhere in there in the same panel. Discussion finished.