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Waking_Dreamer
October 19, 2010, 03:46 AM
Well since shikai Ichigo feats in the other thread mentioned to suggest shikai Hitsugaya's capabilities - I thought how do they compare directly to each other...? In other words - A fight!

Note: This is POST-BANKAI TRAINING Shikai Ichigo

http://i204.photobucket.com/albums/bb57/Jonas64/hitsushikailone2-1.png
Location: Sōkyoku Hill
Starting distance: 20 meters
Restrictions: Bankai, Mask
Feats/Capabilities: SS Arc
Restrictions: Bankai
State of mind: Ichigo - Completely Resolved Hitsugaya - Bloodlusted

Bhoot
October 19, 2010, 05:07 AM
Cant say much . Is this the Ichigo b4 Arracnar Arc or after it??

B4 , i say Ichi wins relative difficulty , but if its after , Hitsugaya wins with relative ease

Waking_Dreamer
October 19, 2010, 05:43 AM
Cant say much . Is this the Ichigo b4 Arracnar Arc or after it??

B4 , i say Ichi wins relative difficulty , but if its after , Hitsugaya wins with relative ease

Well for best preformances from each side Id say the Shikai Ichigo that KO 3 VCs barehanded and for Histugaya, I say when he incapcitated Kira and wrapped Gin's arm with his chain. So SS arc is where you can base their feats on.

Its a shame the Arracnar Arc nerfed both their shikais...hopefully when Ichigo gets his powers back and Hitsugaya gets more training we'll see their shikai's kicking ass again.

kkck
October 19, 2010, 09:22 AM
I have to lean towards hitsugaya here. The effect of his shikai can affect ichigo even after the actual attack as it did gin. Every time ichigo gets wet he will have trouble and tenso jurin is no joke.

En Yang Ji
October 19, 2010, 09:50 AM
If it was Ichigo after he mastered his bankai, I would think shikai Ichigo would win. After the Dangai training Ichigo seemed like he was in complete control of his reiastu.

Ichigo has 2x captain level reiastu, so if he can completely control it, he should be able to barehand Hitsugaya's blade and tank most of his attacks, like Aizen and Yama would.

Waking_Dreamer
October 19, 2010, 10:35 AM
If it was Ichigo after he mastered his bankai, I would think shikai Ichigo would win. After the Dangai training Ichigo seemed like he was in complete control of his reiastu.

Ichigo has 2x captain level reiastu, so if he can completely control it, he should be able to barehand Hitsugaya's blade and tank most of his attacks, like Aizen and Yama would.

Nope, not post-jinzen Ichigo.

Pretty much the capabilties of shikai Ichigo just before he went bankai against Byakuya.

SS arc shikai Ichigo.

En Yang Ji
October 19, 2010, 11:15 AM
Still I would give it to Ichigo. Ichigo's speed was enough to blitz Byakuya multiple times, even though Byakuya is a speed demon. Byakuya also had a million petals to keep Ichigo from getting to him.

Hitsugaya would have hard time beating Ichigo.

Broken_Wing
October 19, 2010, 11:27 AM
Still I would give it to Ichigo. Ichigo's speed was enough to blitz Byakuya multiple times, even though Byakuya is a speed demon. Byakuya also had a million petals to keep Ichigo from getting to him.

Hitsugaya would have hard time beating Ichigo.
I think hes talking about shikai Ichigo here.

---------------

This is actually a decent match up I never thought about.

In the SS Arc Ichigo's GT is pretty beastly, especially for anyone without bankai access. I think Ichigo would be physically stronger, but not so much so that he would manhandle Hitsugaya in close range. The longer the match keeps going the greater the attacks and advantage goes to Hitsugaya.

While a prolonged match with Ichigo will leave the landscape scarred with deep rifts in the earth, Hitsugaya would eventually create large glaciers, and the more moisture in the atmosphere the stronger his attacks will be...

En Yang Ji
October 19, 2010, 11:39 AM
Oh.....lol

I just posted about how shikai Ichigo would do and I already forgot it was his shikai he was fighting with it. I think Hitsugaya would win, if Ichigo's hollow didn't come out. It seems like Hitsugaya uses better tactics when he fights and he does have Tenso Jurin.

Hitsugaya is sort of reckless, like Aizen pointed out, so he may leave himself open at times. Also, if Ichigo hollow came out he probably would just overpower Hitsugaya.

kkck
October 19, 2010, 12:51 PM
Also worth noting, with tenso jurin hitsugaya does not need for the place where he is fighting to get humid enough. Tenso jurin basically allows him to control the humidity of the place he is at and throw his best attacks at will without restrictions. In that sense, techniques like the one he used against harribel would not be out of question. The scale would definitely be more limited to to him being in shikai though.
[hr]
There is something I have been wondering about. Is hitsugaya's ice different when he activates tenso jurin? If I recall, when he fought gin the ice he used not only did not really break but also it seemed to grow to cover the target. Something similar was seen in hitsugaya's ice flowers when he used them against harribel (they did not melt and expanded to cover her body). I just get the impression that when hitsugaya uses tenso jurin the strength of his ice and its properties change considerably.

Waking_Dreamer
October 19, 2010, 06:15 PM
There is something I have been wondering about. Is hitsugaya's ice different when he activates tenso jurin? If I recall, when he fought gin the ice he used not only did not really break but also it seemed to grow to cover the target. Something similar was seen in hitsugaya's ice flowers when he used them against harribel (they did not melt and expanded to cover her body). I just get the impression that when hitsugaya uses tenso jurin the strength of his ice and its properties change considerably.

Not too sure, but in my opinion they would be more powerful if not bigger than without. And for techniques that require prep such as his 1000 Years Ice Prison, had Tenso Jurin been on the creation time would be much shorter imo.

If you consider that his TJ shikai Ice dragon was similar if not bigger than his bankai Ice dragon, even though he should be out-putting 1/10 -1/5 the power in his shikai.

As for comparable feats:


~Hitsugaya ~
Long-range:
http://www.mangareader.net/94-586-5/bleach/chapter-132.html
http://www.mangareader.net/94-586-7/bleach/chapter-132.html

Shot-range:
http://www.mangafox.com/manga/bleach/v16/c132/9.html
http://www.mangafox.com/manga/bleach/v16/c132/10.html

Reaction-speed:
http://www.mangafox.com/manga/bleach/v16/c132/12.html
http://www.mangafox.com/manga/bleach/v16/c132/13.html


~Ichigo ~

Long-range:
http://www.mangafox.com/manga/bleach/v19/c160/20.html
http://www.mangafox.com/manga/bleach/v19/c161/5.html

Shot-range:
http://www.mangafox.com/manga/bleach/v18/c152/16.html
http://www.mangafox.com/manga/bleach/v18/c152/18.html

Reaction-speed:
http://www.mangafox.com/manga/bleach/v18/c152/19.html
http://www.mangafox.com/manga/bleach/v18/c152/21.html

El Samurai Guapo
October 19, 2010, 06:35 PM
Toushirou takes this easily. Back in SS Shikai Ichigo was more or less around the level of Renji. In fact, Renji would have defeated Ichigo if it wasn't for the mask popping up inside his kimono.

Waking_Dreamer
October 19, 2010, 06:55 PM
Toushirou takes this easily. Back in SS Shikai Ichigo was more or less around the level of Renji. In fact, Renji would have defeated Ichigo if it wasn't for the mask popping up inside his kimono.

Well, im considering post-bankai training shikai Ichigo, it is kind of pointless for Pre-Kenpachi fight shikai Ichigo to be tossed in against any captain even if they are limited to shikai.

Check the links I posted about Ichigo. Thats the type of Ichigo Hitsugaya would be the facing...

El Samurai Guapo
October 19, 2010, 07:27 PM
Well, im considering post-bankai training shikai Ichigo, it is kind of pointless for Pre-Kenpachi fight shikai Ichigo to be tossed in against any captain even if they are limited to shikai.

Check the links I posted about Ichigo. Thats the type of Ichigo Hitsugaya would be the facing...

I see. Well its hard to say because since then he's relied exclusively on bankai.

kkck
October 19, 2010, 07:29 PM
True but he did make short work of 3 VCs and matched byakuya's speed. I would think shikai ichigo at that point was at around regular bankai ichigo in HM. I know it sounds absurd but considering ichigo barely reached grimmjows speed with bankai I don't think it is that far out.

El Samurai Guapo
October 19, 2010, 07:40 PM
Couldn't that just be because Grimmjow himself was fast?

As for the thing with the 3 VCs, I think that's one of the scenes that pissed me off the most about bleach. How does an unarmed Ichigo one-shot (with his fists) Omaeda who was at least strong enough to take on one of Barragan's fraccion? Does that mean Ichigo back then could have one shotted all those fraccion with his fists too? IMO that was a poorly written attempt to hype up Ichigo after his bankai training.

Same with all of those afterimages he created while fighting Byakuya. Heck even his tranformation sequence into bankai was made to seem far more spectacular the first time.

kkck
October 19, 2010, 07:51 PM
Wouldn't grimmjow and even ulquiorra be a tad TOO fast if that was the case though? Bankai ichigo at his best was fast enough to outright speedblits byakuya twice. Would it make a shred of sense grimmjow can do that to byakuya? Seriously, if grimmjow was that fast then the guy could sonido in, steal everything byakuya and kempachi had with them, but rape them, give back their posesions and then steal them again, buy a shake, drink it, read a long ass book and then behead them and they would never even have a chance to react.

El Samurai Guapo
October 19, 2010, 08:12 PM
Wouldn't grimmjow and even ulquiorra be a tad TOO fast if that was the case though? Bankai ichigo at his best was fast enough to outright speedblits byakuya twice. Would it make a shred of sense grimmjow can do that to byakuya? Seriously, if grimmjow was that fast then the guy could sonido in, steal everything byakuya and kempachi had with them, but rape them, give back their posesions and then steal them again, buy a shake, drink it, read a long ass book and then behead them and they would never even have a chance to react.

He only speed blitzed Byakuya once that I can recall. The part where he has his sword to Byakuya's throat was simply because Byakuya didn't expect slow moving shikai Ichigo to become a speedster all of a sudden. Other than that he got behind him once but Byakuya was able to react fast enough to stop his sword with his hand.

Also, it could be that Ichigo learned from his mistake against Byakuya where he went too fast for his own good and caused himself damage (which is why he slowed down greatly as their fight progressed).

kkck
October 19, 2010, 08:21 PM
it wasn't just byakuya being surprised. He made it very clear how he could not even see ichigo coming.
http://www.cloudmanga.com/Bleach/163/#2

Even in the one afterwards, I doubt byakuya actually allowed ichigo to confortably get behind his back.
http://www.cloudmanga.com/Bleach/163/#16
Surely at that point he kinda defended himself however up to that point ichigo's movements were still a tad beyond him.

Even if ichigo learned from his mistake, it would not explain why grimmjow speedblits him. Even if ichigo held his speed back for his own sake he should still be able to see grimmjow coming and react in short range.

Waking_Dreamer
October 19, 2010, 08:25 PM
Well, yeah some people say that bankai Ichigo isnt that much above Byakuya in base speed, the main reason Ichigo speedblitz him the first time was because he was totally in disbelief that Ichigo had achived bankai and the very nature of its abilities.

As the fight progressed Byakuya mentions something about understanding Ichigo's bankai and then adjusting to his speed accordingly.

http://www.cloudmanga.com/Bleach/163/#19
http://www.cloudmanga.com/Bleach/163/#20

The fact that Byakuya did not use that Cicada technique can also suggest Bankai Ichigo did not completely outpace Byakuya and could have gone toe-toe in the speed department against Ichigo more effectively.

As for this shikai Ichigo I think its actually a closer battle than people might think against Shikai Hitsugaya.

El Samurai Guapo
October 19, 2010, 08:42 PM
I agree, I think the entire first half of the fight Byakuya was in denial about Ichigo having a bankai. I don't think he really tried his best during that phase either. Besides, Byakuya's not Soi Fon, he's a balanced captain that excels in all shinigami arts, not necessarily speed. Bykuya's good at shunpo, but we all know that shunpo ≠ speed.

Grimmjow or Ulquiorra being faster than Byakuya wouldn't mean he's weaker than them.

Random101
October 19, 2010, 10:26 PM
Tough choice. Shikai Ichigo back when his shikai wasn't worthless (Which funnily enough was a laughably small window since he got the thing and learned how to use Getsuuga at will) vs Shikai Hitsugaya back before he kept resorting to Bankai's rather quickly is a tough choice to make given the windows of each's feats are so small, and are lacking in general. In terms of straight up shikai skills, Hitsugaya's got him in versatility, accuracy, after effects, and area of effect, especially with Tenso Jurrin in play, but Ichigo's got some spiffy power to fall back on even if Getsuuga is a fairly straight forward attack. Speed/reaction/skill with shunpo are probably close enough to not matter, would probably drawn out and actually a very entertaining fight to watch all in all.

Might have to go with Hitsugaya though. It's hard to argue against versatility when overall specs are arguably close enough to not be of a significant difference, and Ichigo's sadly never used his shikai, or indeed Bankai the way Shirosaki could. If only he'd been using the cloth to actual effect in battle like he was in that inner fight we could get some rather epic mid range melee going on between them, between Getsuuga vs. Ice and cloth blade strikes vs. freezing half moon chain. Hitsugaya's got more tricks up his sleeve to fall back on, even discounting his heard but not seen of kido's, which tips the scales slightly in his favor.

kkck
October 20, 2010, 12:07 AM
I agree, I think the entire first half of the fight Byakuya was in denial about Ichigo having a bankai. I don't think he really tried his best during that phase either. Besides, Byakuya's not Soi Fon, he's a balanced captain that excels in all shinigami arts, not necessarily speed. Bykuya's good at shunpo, but we all know that shunpo ≠ speed.

Grimmjow or Ulquiorra being faster than Byakuya wouldn't mean he's weaker than them.

True but enough speed will invariably result in you being speedblits. In this scenario we are talking about a guy who speedblits byakuya easily and on top of that then we have the same guy with the same bankai at the begining being speedblits without him even being able to defend himself. That said, I don't think the disbelief was something which caused byakuya to get speedblits. Byakuya was already attacking with his bankai which means he was being dead serious and the second time he actually went and use his hands to double/triple the speed of his petals. He was far past the not serious part, I doubt he had his guard down in any way.

Waking_Dreamer
October 20, 2010, 12:08 AM
How does an unarmed Ichigo one-shot (with his fists) Omaeda who was at least strong enough to take on one of Barragan's fraccion?

Oh yeah, Omaeda never actually defeated anyone. That fraccion was taken out by Soifon as collateral damage.

So it can still make sense that shikai Ichigo detroyed Omaeda barehanded, while wouldnt be able to do the same to a fraccion.

El Samurai Guapo
October 20, 2010, 12:27 AM
Oh yeah, Omaeda never actually defeated anyone. That fraccion was taken out by Soifon as collateral damage.

So it can still make sense that shikai Ichigo detroyed Omaeda barehanded, while wouldnt be able to do the same to a fraccion.

Fair enough, but I still think Ichigo shattering through his zanpakutou with his fists was a bit exaggerated. I'm also disappointed that one of those VCs he took out was Yamamoto's.

kkck
October 20, 2010, 12:30 AM
Ichigo had captain level reiatsu long before that. It makes perfect sense a captain level shinigami can give a VC level shinigami the worthless fodder treatment. In all likelyhood he would have done the exact same thing to hisagi, renji or izuru.

El Samurai Guapo
October 20, 2010, 12:45 AM
So Byakuya could have just knocked Renji out with one punch? I seriously doubt that.

kkck
October 20, 2010, 01:04 AM
In a scenario where renji is not familiar with byakuya's techniques and no bankai (for which he did not even need his zampakuto to win, he just went for the overkill), basically renji limited to shikai, I could see something like that happening. Perhaps renji can take one puncj however I do not see him putting much of a fight in the least. Seriously, renji had to go bankai to cause no real damage to byakuya(well, byakuya got 1 scratch from the full extent of renji's power). It was by all intents and purposes an easy fight where not even a miracle could have made renji win. In many ways, it was a miracle renji even survived.

El Samurai Guapo
October 20, 2010, 01:31 AM
Byakuya didn't need his bankai against Renji because he has kidou, which is just as deadly. If Byakuya was limited to not having a zanpakutou (not even his sealed sword) and not being able to use kidou I don't see how he would defeat Renji. I don't see how any captain would apart from those that have hand to hand skills like Kisuke or Yoruichi. Seriously Renji only did worse against Byakuya than Ichigo because he got hit with a gigantic soukatsui and a binding kidou. The only kidou used against Ichigo was a byakurai through the shoulder (instead of the chest or head for some reason).

Renji is quick enough to react and defend from Byakuya's attacks (and Byakuya is a lot quicker than shikai Ichigo) and I'm fairly certain that Renji could have injured Byakuya if he had actually landed a hit. I don't think Byakuya's reiatsu is so high Renji can't cut him. Okay this is way off topic from Toushirou vs. Ichigo lol.

Still, I don't see any of the captains meleeing three VCs at once. I still see that particular scene as nothing more than a tool to play up Ichigo's strength. I don't think VCs are that much of fodder to captains that there is literally no disparity between them and unseated shinigami.

kkck
October 20, 2010, 01:56 AM
Of course renji could have harmed byakuya if he landed a hit. That's like saying you'd get wet if you jump into the ocean. I am also quite sure the VCs ichigo one shotted would have harmed him had ichigo taken the hit. I never said renji could outright not hurt byakuya(who knows though, byakuya is was mentioned at some point to have as much or more reiatsu than kempachi so....). Quite frankly, I don't see the captains not meeleing several VCs alone for the most part and that includes komamura, hitsugaya and any other captain. I am of the school of thought that captains >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> to VC(at least the current generation). The sheer difference in reiatsu along makes to much of a difference. Heck, just consider ichigo's fight against renji and kempachi. As soon as ichigo got his determination in place be basically speedblits renji and took him down in one swift slash even after taking a lot of damage. Then he proceeded to fight kempachi and he simply could not keep up nor cut kempachi. Basically, ichigo was strong enough to destroy renji but in turn when faced with eyepatch kempachi he could not cut him until he got his determination in place. Heck, kempachi even stated their VCs would not have a chance against ichigo before ichigo could even cut him. The truth is that the sheer difference in power between the strongest VC and the weakest of the captains is outright humongous. It is a different world altogether. Had renji not been familiar with byakuya's techniques he would have died from that senka IMO. It is only the fact that he was familiar with byakuya's basic techniques and shikai that allowed him to last enough to actually annoy byakuya. That said, why do we assume byakuya has no hand to hand combat skills or that he is not good at it? Byakuya was trained by yoruichi and had a military upbringing. Byakuya also has shown he is balanced in all aspects of fighting so far. Hand to hand combat should also be taught at the academy. Considering everything, byakuya should not only know hand to hand combat but also be damn good at it. Byakuya has shown great kido, great swordsmanship and shunpo which so far would triumph the best sonido among the espada and would probably only lose to that of either soifon or yoruichi. Why should we assume he for some reason slacks in hand to hand combat?

Gran Maestro
October 20, 2010, 03:15 AM
I am of the school of thought that captains >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> to VC(at least the current generation).

Lol, then we witnessed a miracle when Hisagi dodged hollow Tousen's blow, it's like a turtle dodging a blow from Bruce Lee. Perhaps it's time for you to close down your school of thought. :p


Had renji not been familiar with byakuya's techniques he would have died from that senka IMO. It is only the fact that he was familiar with byakuya's basic techniques and shikai that allowed him to last enough to actually annoy byakuya.

What difference does the familiarity make? So if Omaeda is familiar with Yamamoto's techniques, he can put up a fight, is that so? Even if Renji is so familiar with Byakuya that they have trained and fought together for the last 1000 years, Byakuya can still speedblitz him if the difference in reiatsu is as humongous as you claim. Renji simply can't keep up, his limits won't allow him. I'm familiar with Bruce Lee but I'm pretty sure I wouldn't be able to block any of his punches or kicks. I don't know why you play down VCs despite the feats that show they're not that far below the captains. I believe there's also a class difference between certain VCs like Hisagi and Omaeda, you can't put them in the same basket.

As to the topic in hand, I think shikai Hitsugaya would beat shikai Ichigo in a fight. Hitsugaya's shikai is actually one of the most useful ones against shinigami who don't have a hierro to protect them, so I think Hitsugaya would have the edge. Of course if Ichigo summons Zangetsu to fight alongside him (as he did against Kenpachi), Hitsugaya would be in deep trouble but this is another story.

kkck
October 20, 2010, 07:36 AM
The hisagi part is not really relevant. As you said, it was a miracle and the only reason it happened was because tousen was in the worst possible state of mind. Even hisagi admitted such a thing would have been impossible with the old composed tousen.

Familiarity is important because it allows renji to react to moves a step earlier. For instance, he was aware that byakuya had used senka from the very moment he saw him disappear. Also, how would he have protected himself from senbonsakura had he not known exactly how to block it? He wouldn't have been able to block it. Heck, how can familiarity not be important after all the fuss renji made about knowing byakuya's techniques? We'd be ignoring a big part of the fight.

Gran Maestro
October 20, 2010, 08:35 AM
The hisagi part is not really relevant. As you said, it was a miracle and the only reason it happened was because tousen was in the worst possible state of mind. Even hisagi admitted such a thing would have been impossible with the old composed tousen.

Hisagi part is totally relevant, Hisagi managed to dodge a blow from hollow Tousen but you say that even shinigami Tousen would be able to one-shot him, VCs are that weak. Right after Tousen attacked Hisagi, he blocked an attack from Komamura and kicked him away, it's not as if Tousen forgot how to fight and didn't know what he was doing. Hisagi said "If this was back when you were unable to see, then you would have dodged a simple attack like this." Hisagi was obviously referring to Tousen's resurreccion and his newfound sight, Tousen was certainly fit to fight as can be seen from his performance against Komamura. There is nothing whatsoever that suggests he took it easy on Hisagi.


Familiarity is important because it allows renji to react to moves a step earlier. For instance, he was aware that byakuya had used senka from the very moment he saw him disappear. Also, how would he have protected himself from senbonsakura had he not known exactly how to block it? He wouldn't have been able to block it. Heck, how can familiarity not be important after all the fuss renji made about knowing byakuya's techniques? We'd be ignoring a big part of the fight.

You missed the point. Familiarity is important in the sense that you have the power and skill to make it matter. Renji made it matter because he wasn't overwhelmingly weaker than Byakuya. If he was so weak, he would be defenseless against Byakuya's attacks, familiarity would be irrelevant. Renji made it clear that he was fast enough to follow Byakuya's movements and block him, his ability to block Byakuya shows that he is not as weak as you suggest. Do you say that the huge difference between captains and VCs disappear once they get to know each other? I don't think so.

Waking_Dreamer
October 20, 2010, 04:24 PM
Just wondering, at this point in time would people say shikai Ichigo (the one on guillotine hill) would have a vastly larger amount of reiatsu compared to shikai Hitsugaya?

We know before bankai training Ichigo already had captain level spiritual power (just didnt know how to control or even hide it), but people forget that Hitsugaya entered the academy to actually control his leaking spiritual power even as kid. Not to mention hes always talking about his concern of losing control with his power or reducing the amount he uses for attacks.

Some people may consider since Ichigo has 2x reiatsu of a captain he would be able to defeat Hitsugaya who has average reaitsu at best...?

Random101
October 20, 2010, 04:38 PM
Considering we haven't been given jack as a power comparison for so many it's not funny, to the point where even who we are given estimates on hardly matter due to the general lack from everyone else, eh... >>

He almost assuredly has more pressure than Hitsugaya, but the problem is twofold, he can't adequately utilize said power, and ballpark estimates at that point in the story only had him at base captain level. I highly doubt he hit twofold till the HM arc given the estimate Ukitake gave, and even then that estimate for the twice a captain was given when he was in Bankai, a bankai specifically of the compression variety, so even that's not exactly a good basis to go on.

Crystal Black
October 20, 2010, 04:40 PM
Ichigo was in the same tier as Aizen and yama when it comes to spiritual power. There's no doubting that but Like many have said he couldn't control his like others could. Ichigo's skill set is also what prevents him from fighting against other captain level opponents. Shikai vs Shikai there shouldn't be any diffirences in each opposing power defintely in this case Hitsugaya vs Ichigo. Ichigo is lacking though all he has is GT, Speed and his sword. Meanwhile Hitsu has all the above and more. Hitsu should take this with low-moderate difficulty.

Waking_Dreamer
October 20, 2010, 04:47 PM
Lol, I guess you guys have a point.

I mean considering Bug Tousen was meant to be uber when it came to spiritual power in FKT but in the end was still susceptible to VC's shikai...

Anything can happen eh?

Takahashi
October 21, 2010, 08:26 AM
Hitsugaya.

Shikai Ichigo has only one ranged attack, that's it. Hitsugaya has versatility not only in his Zan's abilities, but also Kido, and likely much better Shunpo and swordsmanship.

Ichigo said it himself, he wins fights because he has to (main character), but when you chuck him into a fantasy fight where it's no longer based on plot, I can't give Ichigo a win at all.

Franckie
October 21, 2010, 11:01 AM
Oh? This is SS Ichigo? If that's the case, then Ichigo should win this fight. SS Ichigo defeated 4 Vice-Captains, tied with a full-power Kenpachi, and was outclassing Byakuya. Had this been Hueco Mundo Ichigo, however, then I would back Hitsugaya. Here Shikai Ichigo was downgraded to fodder-level that can't even handle someone such as Doldonny. So Hitsugaya would win with ice spam.

Waking_Dreamer
October 21, 2010, 12:36 PM
Oh? This is SS Ichigo? If that's the case, then Ichigo should win this fight. SS Ichigo defeated 4 Vice-Captains, tied with a full-power Kenpachi, and was outclassing Byakuya. Had this been Hueco Mundo Ichigo, however, then I would back Hitsugaya. Here Shikai Ichigo was downgraded to fodder-level that can't even handle someone such as Doldonny. So Hitsugaya would win with ice spam.

Full-power Kenpachi? Hasn't it been stated that he handicapped himself in the fight with Ichigo?

As for the vice-captains well for one many think that a non-bankai VC is somewhat significantly inferior to a shikai captain. Also, in another thread quite a few believe shikai Hitsugaya could actually take on and defeat shikai Renji, shikai Ikkaku, shikai Kira, and shikai Hisagi at the same time.

This what leads me to believe this actaully a close match between the two, even guillotine hill shikai Ichigo.

Hystzen
October 21, 2010, 12:46 PM
Hitsugaya.

Shikai Ichigo has only one ranged attack, that's it. Hitsugaya has versatility not only in his Zan's abilities, but also Kido, and likely much better Shunpo and swordsmanship.

Ichigo said it himself, he wins fights because he has to (main character), but when you chuck him into a fantasy fight where it's no longer based on plot, I can't give Ichigo a win at all.

when has histu ever used kido in combat..only time seen him use kido is the barrier to imprison momo in SS...i never get way he ment to be good a kido when he never used it.

whats funny bout these 2 is that there shikai sucks compared to others .

then again i think..histu would be beat by Byakuya and SS ichigo was able to tank byakuyas bankai in shikai so ichigo is strong...
but
not sure on this fight as both need bankai to be good really :p

Broken_Wing
October 21, 2010, 01:07 PM
Hitsugaya.

Shikai Ichigo has only one ranged attack, that's it. Hitsugaya has versatility not only in his Zan's abilities, but also Kido, and likely much better Shunpo and swordsmanship.

Ichigo said it himself, he wins fights because he has to (main character), but when you chuck him into a fantasy fight where it's no longer based on plot, I can't give Ichigo a win at all.

Well to be fair, his win against Ikkaku and the shikai feats on guillotine hill were shown to be due to his training and no hollow, last minute resolve shenanigans.

Its implied in shikai his shunpo was at the same level as Byakuya's base shunpo and swordmanship was about equal to.

I find it annoying with the "I win because I have to" as well, but I'll give Ichigo credit on his skills for his appearance and feats at execution hill.
[hr]

when has histu ever used kido in combat..only time seen him use kido is the barrier to imprison momo in SS...i never get way he ment to be good a kido when he never used it.

It says Hitsugaya garduated the academy with top/high grades in all of the shinigami apsects and that would mean Kido as well. Its obvious Kubo uses kido as an after thought. he hasnt put much detail into that aspect except for uber kido users.

If he started having Hitsugaya using kido in battles, how different would his battles look like from Byakuya? He would have to come up with a new set of conventional kido to have all those capable of kido to use in their fights.

He skips whole battles and has top-tier fighters get KO off panel - do you think hes going to bother to put in more different kido for kido users to fight in battle?


whats funny bout these 2 is that there shikai sucks compared to others .



Well Ichigo and Hitsugaya shikai would probable destroy Byakuya's shikai...

Random101
October 21, 2010, 01:42 PM
Gins and Byakuya are among the suckiest Shikai, least among the captains (Simple form changers that do jack all else probably top them though). Hitsugaya's is decent, Ichigo's would be worth a lot more than it is if it could do crap against hierro and if he used it like Hichigo. Really the main issue is that most shikai have pretty much been made obsolete of late.

Takahashi
October 21, 2010, 03:11 PM
when has histu ever used kido in combat..only time seen him use kido is the barrier to imprison momo in SS...i never get way he ment to be good a kido when he never used it.

whats funny bout these 2 is that there shikai sucks compared to others .

then again i think..histu would be beat by Byakuya and SS ichigo was able to tank byakuyas bankai in shikai so ichigo is strong...
but
not sure on this fight as both need bankai to be good really :p

We KNOW he can, doesn't matter if he hasn't shown it yet. He's a prodigy, he's got talents in everything.

Also, Ichigo did not "tank" Byakuya's Bankai. It destroyed him, tanking is more than just not dying.

Franckie
October 22, 2010, 09:19 AM
Full-power Kenpachi? Hasn't it been stated that he handicapped himself in the fight with Ichigo?

As for the vice-captains well for one many think that a non-bankai VC is somewhat significantly inferior to a shikai captain. Also, in another thread quite a few believe shikai Hitsugaya could actually take on and defeat shikai Renji, shikai Ikkaku, shikai Kira, and shikai Hisagi at the same time.

This what leads me to believe this actaully a close match between the two, even guillotine hill shikai Ichigo.

It's true that Ichigo only managed a tie partly because Kenpachi was handicapping himself for the first part of the fight. After Ichigo was revived and knocked off the eyepatch, however, that was no longer the case. Both attacked each other at full-power and both were KO'd about the same time.

Hystzen
October 22, 2010, 11:41 AM
We KNOW he can, doesn't matter if he hasn't shown it yet. He's a prodigy, he's got talents in everything.

Also, Ichigo did not "tank" Byakuya's Bankai. It destroyed him, tanking is more than just not dying.

http://www.mangafox.com/manga/bleach/v19/c161/10.html
http://www.mangafox.com/manga/bleach/v19/c161/15.html

easily got rid of byakuya shikai which forced byakuya go bankai


http://www.mangafox.com/manga/bleach/v19/c161/18.html
http://www.mangafox.com/manga/bleach/v19/c161/21.html


he tanked bankai in shikai..he even deflected the first blow in shikai.

to me this shows he had high speed before bankai...histu in ss didnt show good speed like ichigo he barely dodged Gin shikai (was gin being serious tho :s)

shikai ichigo in SS was good

but still not sure who better

Random101
October 22, 2010, 11:55 AM
How does that show he has good speed? He was practically stationary during it.

Similarly the eye thing is impressive because he could do it when it was already practically touching. If a person is capable of dodging at that point, that's insane. Like Shinji's dodge only less lulzy and that actually did connect, albeit only partly. Granted though that in itself isn't enough to call whose faster, but I certainly don't see either being blitz capable to say the least with what's shown in their shikai.

Also the amount of petals Byakuya has in Shikai is so minor that blowing it away with such a massive attack really isn't impressive, like at all. There's a reason I rank it with the lamest shikai, and that along with the fact that people of captain level can indeed tank his significantly more massive bankai is a pretty good clue. When your shikai is really only good for mooks, and not even elite mooks like VCs, then something's wrong. Admittedly though his bankai more than makes up for it.

El Samurai Guapo
October 22, 2010, 01:17 PM
Byakuya does have the worst shikai. Unless you're Ganju it really is nothing to worry about.

As for speed feats, Toushirou looked like he moved pretty quick when he zoomed past Aizen and Gin to get to Hinamori's body lying on the ground behind them. http://www.mangafox.com/manga/bleach/v20/c170/9.html
Though that could have just been because of the first-person perspective we saw.

Hystzen
October 22, 2010, 02:28 PM
ignore my post was tired ..just woke up from nap and i agree im chatting shit :p


seems like everyone is picking histu..mmm i pick ichigo just be different

Waking_Dreamer
November 08, 2010, 06:47 AM
As for speed feats, Toushirou looked like he moved pretty quick when he zoomed past Aizen and Gin to get to Hinamori's body lying on the ground behind them. http://www.mangafox.com/manga/bleach/v20/c170/9.html
Though that could have just been because of the first-person perspective we saw.

Someone said a while back that those sound fx are shunpo sounds so yeah, Hitsugay definitely knows shunpo even if the plot makes him "forget" to use it at some points.