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c0nflikt
October 19, 2010, 06:43 AM
It occurred to me that manga's don't quite necessarily get worse, we all just outgrow our blind awe and mature as readers.

My first example will be DBZ there is an entire generation who in awe sat glued to toonami every day for DBZ, we loved every friggin second of it and couldn't get enough. But these days, the exact same generation talks about how DBZ was actually stupid and rag's on it, etc. All because we grew as viewers, readers, even writers. Now the plot devices seem week to us, the overall plot decisions as randomness actually don't make as much sense, we see where shonen jump may have forced the authors hand here or there, especially the dragon ball, hyperbolic time chamber, fusion dance, fusion ear rings.

Another example is Bleach and Naruto, now where the former's quality may have never been so high, the latter has been running for around 10 years I. The readers are maturing the recent arcs aren't necessarily any less coherent then the first half of naruto, but the readers reaching a certain maturity have noticed more, now they question plot points which would have simply been awesome 5 or more years ago.

So basically I'm questioning have the manga's become crap or have we the readers become such connoisseurs that we're merely spoiling the stories by over analyzing?

To this is say retain your youthful ignorance and it will further extend your enjoyment of manga for years to come.

Roflkopt3r
October 20, 2010, 01:47 PM
Well, I guess there are two main reasons:
-Outgrowing them by age or experience; decreasing acceptance for unrealistic scenes, higher demands on dialogues and content.
-Getting used too much to the style; By watching or reading it alot, the small mistakes or similarities in style and plot are becoming more obvious, thus it's becoming less enjoyable with time.

It's pretty much the same with everything: Movies, Manga, (bad/mediocre) Literature, Arts, Music, Games. After a while one gets used to a certain style of a certain genre so it's getting boring because it repeats. The helpful alternatives are switching to a more sophisticated or higher quality version of it or searching for fameless but different interpretations of the genre.

For example I think that Shounen is rather limited in possibilities and Style, so many people end up with One Piece and Naruto as both are high quality varients of the genre, or with rather fameless ones which are different in some ways.
My personal solution was to rather read Seinen right now, Shigurui and Berserk so far, since the genre opens many more options to authors since the portrayed situations can be much more complex, partially allowed by the option of excessive violence.
As an example: The portrayal of the Samurai society in Shigurui definitly wouldn't be possible to be done anywhere near this in Shounen because it contains alot of cruel or perverted actions.

Asarii
October 21, 2010, 12:47 AM
This is an interesting topic because it gets us thinking about the logistics of WHY we may grow out of a series.


So basically I'm questioning have the manga's become crap or have we the readers become such connoisseurs that we're merely spoiling the stories by over analyzing?
I wouldn't use the word "crap" because what's trash is another person's treasure after all.

Mangakas write their stories differently from novelists. Authors write their story with a set plan and publish it in a contained book. However, most mangakas publish their work in an anthology. That's a whole new set of pressure that mangakas face which may reflect the decrease in quality that some works have. If they're intending to make a long-running series, they have to pay attention to the reader's opinions. You're cut if the series isn't doing well within the magazine. On the other hand if you're successful, then the magazine will try to keep you as long as possible regardless of what the series and the mangaka's limitation might be.


-Getting used too much to the style; By watching or reading it alot, the small mistakes or similarities in style and plot are becoming more obvious, thus it's becoming less enjoyable with time.
It's also the opposite. By being exposed to other stylistic genres, we tend to have a broader and diverse mindset to judge a work rather than staying faithful to one series forever. If I'm not making sense, think of vampires for example. If we only look at Twilight for reference, we won't be exposed to other literatures/media about vampires.

Same with manga. If we stick to one demographic/genre, we won't have a firm basis to analyze a piece of literature. (I consider manga to be a form of literature.)

[hr]
Just a reminder: when giving specific examples, make sure to use constructive criticism instead of bashing a series. Thank you! :)

Kaiten
October 21, 2010, 01:04 AM
Never forget that a lot of series, while popular with adults internationally are intended for younger teens in Japan. That's not a judgment of any particular series, just a bit of perspective. It's worth keeping in mind that plot development, characterization, and pacing for the series most popular outside of Japan are meant to appeal to a 15 year olds perception of what makes a story good, not someone over 18. Reading to deeply into series like Naruto, Bleach, etc probably won't turn up what an adult wants to see. Better to enjoy them for what they are: exciting, entertaining stories.

There are plenty of series to read as tastes mature. There is plenty of great seinen out there, as well as josei, a lot of it translated as well. I'm happy to give recommendations, especially if I know what someone is looking for in manga. Not to say that all seinen or josei is brilliant, they only indicate age, not genre or content. But for anyone outgrowing typical action series they are great places to turn. There is also a lot of great, well written shonen, they just aren't as famous as the big Jump series.

LoS
November 01, 2010, 02:48 AM
I just read the opening post and not the replies, so this might have been touched upon already, but her is my answer to your question.

It is safe to say Bleach at least did become crap, it wasn't just the audience all maturing, it definitely took a dive into the deep end.

AnkorSVK
November 01, 2010, 04:07 AM
I think more less that all was said every post has its points. In some way ppl forget that the main function of manga is to entertain not to bring you to think about the meaning of life.

Like Asarii said due to presure the original story idea may get screwed.
I dont know how many of the ppl reading this know how much time it takes to make an artisticaly qualitative page. When your ass full of deadlines and awaiting you can easily forget about a deeper meaning or sence of reality.

Also a negative aspect is that if you want to be successful you need to produce what the audience await not what you want - this applies to majority of authors whos existence depends from every page.

The point that we grew up faster than a story we were reading is owerreated whining wont help. If it doesnt entertain you go to another like Kaiten suggested.

Kaiten
November 01, 2010, 11:26 AM
Growing with manga, rather than outgrowing it, is also a burden of the audience. There are 1000's of manga published a year, manga accounts for something like 80% of Japanese book sales, there really is something for everyone. While I doubt even half is translated, there are still hundreds of different series being translated every week. Anyone frustrated with the direction of the big shonen should head to shonen, seinen, or shojo/josei hangout threads; ask for a recommendation there, I guarantee someone will answer. Or head over to mangaupdates (http://www.mangaupdates.com/), the release page is a great, quick way to browse for new series.

some guy
November 04, 2010, 06:11 AM
My first example will be DBZ there is an entire generation who in awe sat glued to toonami every day for DBZ, we loved every friggin second of it and couldn't get enough. But these days, the exact same generation talks about how DBZ was actually stupid and rag's on it, etc. All because we grew as viewers, readers, even writers. Now the plot devices seem week to us, the overall plot decisions as randomness actually don't make as much sense, we see where shonen jump may have forced the authors hand here or there, especially the dragon ball, hyperbolic time chamber, fusion dance, fusion ear rings.


I'll cast a whole deal of that blame on the general terribleness of the English dub rather than anything to do with the series itself. The amount of people thinking the dub is actually representative for the series is stunningly huge.