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View Full Version : Team Urahara Kisuke and Hirako Shinji vs Yamamoto



En Yang Ji
October 22, 2010, 03:39 PM
Rules and Conditions:

Scenario 1:

1. Everyone can't use bankai
2. The battle takes place in FKT


Scenario 2:

1. Everyone can use bankai when shown.
2. The battle takes place in FKT.



In scenario 1 I believe Urahara and Shinji would win. IMO their regular combat skills are higher than Shunsui and Ukitake. Add in haxx inventions, shikai abilities, Shinji's mask and Urahara's intelligence and they take this (albeit with difficulty)

Takahashi
October 22, 2010, 04:53 PM
I think Yamamoto's power isn't so easy to contain. Shinji's Shikai wouldn't do anything to stop Yama from just blowing up the whole damn place in a big torrent of fire. Urahara has versatility, but he'd damn well better be on defense 99% of the time or he'll be incinerated.

At the same time, he's in a two against one situation, and those are always the most difficult to predict. Sure, he held his own against Shunsui and Ukitake, but I don't believe any one of the 3 were seriously trying to KILL the other. The problem is that despite Yama being in several fights, his power is still pretty much indeterminable, we just know he's stronger than everyone, but to what degree?

I'll say Yamamoto both times, intelligence, versatility, and reversal tricks are nice, but I'd imagine Yamamoto can kill just about anyone in a single strike. (Now that there's no more badass Ichigo and Godzen anyway)

El Samurai Guapo
October 22, 2010, 04:53 PM
Well Urahara's inventions and strategy would definitely have to play a role here. Yamamoto is one of the few people in Bleach that can more or less deal with Sakanade because of his ability to surround himself with flames. If Shinji can create an opening for Kisuke to use one of his 90 level chanted hadous or his exploding net I think they have a good shot.

One thing both Shinji and Kisuke do have going for them is that they both can attack from a range until Kisuke figures out a way to take down Yamamoto. Shinji with his ceros and Kisuke with his red GT.

Takahashi
October 22, 2010, 05:12 PM
Well Urahara's inventions and strategy would definitely have to play a role here. Yamamoto is one of the few people in Bleach that can more or less deal with Sakanade because of his ability to surround himself with flames. If Shinji can create an opening for Kisuke to use one of his 90 level chanted hadous or his exploding net I think they have a good shot.

One thing both Shinji and Kisuke do have going for them is that they both can attack from a range until Kisuke figures out a way to take down Yamamoto. Shinji with his ceros and Kisuke with his red GT.

Considering Ulq could knock away Kisuke's GT with his hand, I'd imagine even a full powered one (If it wasn't at that time) could be EASILY handled by Yamamoto, same goes for Shinji's Ceros IMO.

Yamamoto is also insanely fast, who's to say he wouldn't be standing right behind them the second they shot their ranged attacks?

The biggest asset is Shinji's Shikai and some distance, if these aren't combined, then they're damn near useless. Yamamoto would kill anyone who was too close, but if Shinji can skew his view of what close IS, then Urahara could attack from behind or something. I'm not sure what other method could possibly work to be honest.

Urahara's Kido was impressive though, perhaps he can momentarily restrain the CC? Hard to say.

Gran Maestro
October 22, 2010, 05:45 PM
I think Yamamoto wins pretty easily. He doesn't even need EJ, he can just surround himself with flames and there's not much that Urahara and Shinji can do to hurt him until Yamamoto eventually burns them down. I find it hard to believe that Urahara & Shinji duo is insanely superior to Shunsui & Ukitake who had no chance whatsoever to defeat Yamamoto. IMO Aizen & Urahara vs Yamamoto would be a better match-up, Urahara & Shinji can't defeat Aizen, let alone Yamamoto.

En Yang Ji
October 22, 2010, 06:20 PM
I think you guys are severely underestimating Urahara and Shinji. Yama has never shown an attack that, hits in all directions, with little startup, that is likely to kill fighters of Urahara and Shinji's caliber.

Shunsui and Ukitake were able to hold their own against Yama and nothing suggest he was holding back. Yama implied he would just outright kill them if they didn't fight back. If Yama could create a powerful attack that could severely damage high level shinigami why didn't he do that the moment he caught Aizen?

Also if Yama created fire in all directions Urahara and Shinji could just stay back and fire long range attacks at him all day.

emanresu
October 23, 2010, 05:10 AM
yamaji will set on a barricade of fire surrounding him perhaps. so neither urahara or shinji can slash him within close distance. .

so shinji activates reverse world. yamaji's take some moment to grasp what just happen. but its too late as urahara spam a kido with a seal cast within the kido.

yamaji lose in both cases.

El Samurai Guapo
October 23, 2010, 02:05 PM
Considering Ulq could knock away Kisuke's GT with his hand, I'd imagine even a full powered one (If it wasn't at that time) could be EASILY handled by Yamamoto, same goes for Shinji's Ceros IMO.

Well Kisuke's attack is hard to gauge. I do believe the one Ulquiorra deflected wasn't full powered, but let's also not forget that Ulquiorra is the same guy who could stop Ichigo's hollowfied GT with his hands. Espada have this little thing called hierro that Shinigami lack, and hierro seems to be especially effective against energy attacks. Either way, Kisuke is definitely not going to kill Yamamoto with his red GT, but I don't think Yama can completely brush them off either.

Shinji's cero is a big question mark. Grimmjow deflected the majority of the damage with his own cero when he got hit by it, yet he was still nearly killed...and Grimmjow himself had pretty good hierro. I think a direct hit from Shinji's cero would cause some damage, though it certainly wouldn't be enough to bring Yamamoto down either.


Yamamoto is also insanely fast, who's to say he wouldn't be standing right behind them the second they shot their ranged attacks?

Nobody I guess. We know Yamamoto is fast but we can't really compare his speed to his two opponents here. Kisuke himself has to be quick. He was shown holding his own against Yoruichi in hand to hand combat, and he's a former member of Onmitsukido. Shinji doesn't have to many speed feats, but he was easily able to evade Grimmjow when he went up against him (http://www.mangafox.com/manga/bleach/v27/c236/8.html)(something bankai Ichigo couldn't do). And he also did dodge Kaname's attack that was like half an inch from away from cutting the top half of his head off. Shinji also has hollowfication, which we know is at least a sizable speed boost.



The biggest asset is Shinji's Shikai and some distance, if these aren't combined, then they're damn near useless. Yamamoto would kill anyone who was too close, but if Shinji can skew his view of what close IS, then Urahara could attack from behind or something. I'm not sure what other method could possibly work to be honest.

I was about to mention that. Even if Yamamoto is a bit faster than them, it doesn't do much good if he's going the wrong direction. Shinji's shikai can't "skew his view of what close is" like you suggested though. What it can do is confuse Yamamoto enough that they can keep their distance from him and evade his attacks.

Takahashi
October 24, 2010, 04:51 AM
Well Kisuke's attack is hard to gauge. I do believe the one Ulquiorra deflected wasn't full powered, but let's also not forget that Ulquiorra is the same guy who could stop Ichigo's hollowfied GT with his hands. Espada have this little thing called hierro that Shinigami lack, and hierro seems to be especially effective against energy attacks. Either way, Kisuke is definitely not going to kill Yamamoto with his red GT, but I don't think Yama can completely brush them off either.

There's no doubt in my mind that Yamamoto could crush Ulq into dust with his bare hands. I'm not saying that Urahara's GT is incapable of hurting Yama, but from what we've seen, it's far from impressive enough to pose a threat to the CC. It's still a long range option yes, but far from a definitive one.


Shinji's cero is a big question mark. Grimmjow deflected the majority of the damage with his own cero when he got hit by it, yet he was still nearly killed...and Grimmjow himself had pretty good hierro. I think a direct hit from Shinji's cero would cause some damage, though it certainly wouldn't be enough to bring Yamamoto down either.

Aizen's Reiatsu also brought down Grimmjow to his knees, and sweating profusely, Yamamoto is significantly stronger than Aizen. I think we can conclude that Grimmjow would not live long in the presence of Yamamoto concentrating on him.



Nobody I guess. We know Yamamoto is fast but we can't really compare his speed to his two opponents here. Kisuke himself has to be quick. He was shown holding his own against Yoruichi in hand to hand combat, and he's a former member of Onmitsukido. Shinji doesn't have to many speed feats, but he was easily able to evade Grimmjow when he went up against him (http://www.mangafox.com/manga/bleach/v27/c236/8.html)(something bankai Ichigo couldn't do). And he also did dodge Kaname's attack that was like half an inch from away from cutting the top half of his head off. Shinji also has hollowfication, which we know is at least a sizable speed boost.

This wasn't actually a part of my reasoning for why Yama would win, I was simply speculating, because like I said, we don't know a whole lot about the CC comparative-wise (well, except maybe power).



I was about to mention that. Even if Yamamoto is a bit faster than them, it doesn't do much good if he's going the wrong direction. Shinji's shikai can't "skew his view of what close is" like you suggested though. What it can do is confuse Yamamoto enough that they can keep their distance from him and evade his attacks.

Sure it can. "skew his view of what close is" means that if Urahara is close to him, Shinji can reverse Yamamoto's perception to make him appear farther away. His Shikai wasn't limited to just direction, I though that eyesight was reversed as well, would that not mean close and far?

conn-man
October 26, 2010, 04:56 PM
shinji and urahara are still to small scale to take on yamamoto. urahara can make some pretty big explosions and powerful kido but none seem good enough to take down yama(he might be the best tank in bleach, like kenpachi and koma combined)

sakanade would be awesome as always but yama can make fire storms all around him.

En Yang Ji
October 26, 2010, 05:08 PM
The only thing Yama could do is create fire on himself, but even if he does that Urahara could still seal him.

Revan46
October 26, 2010, 05:21 PM
Ennetsu Jigoku. Game over for all of them. Since neither of them have Wonderweiss' power, they can't contain Yama's flames. Thus they die easily.

Or frankly if Yamamoto uses Jōkaku Enjō, then Shinji and Urahara are trapped. We've already seen he's fast as hell using the attack (especially since Aizen, Gin and Tousen could've easily shunpo'd out of the way, but they didn't) then Yama just kills them with another flame. I bet there's even more to Jōkaku Enjō, such as him perhaps being able to have the flames collapse inwards.

En Yang Ji
October 26, 2010, 05:26 PM
Ej takes to much time.

Aizen didn't feel the need to dodge Yama's attack, He thought the Espada were enough to take care of the Gotei 13.

conn-man
October 26, 2010, 08:38 PM
Ej takes to much time.

Aizen didn't feel the need to dodge Yama's attack, He thought the Espada were enough to take care of the Gotei 13.

Not really, yama grabbed aizens arm and the pillars of fire formed, no delay really. Yama shouldn't even need to grab shinji like he did aizen, with sakanade you will always see shinji comming. No matter where he is his distance from you will always be real so Yama can guess his general location well enough to get a hit since his attacks can be all consuming sized.

En Yang Ji
October 26, 2010, 09:07 PM
Not really, yama grabbed aizens arm and the pillars of fire formed, no delay really. Yama shouldn't even need to grab shinji like he did aizen, with sakanade you will always see shinji comming. No matter where he is his distance from you will always be real so Yama can guess his general location well enough to get a hit since his attacks can be all consuming sized.

Yama was preparing Ej while the other captains where fighting the Espada

conn-man
October 26, 2010, 09:17 PM
Did he say that? I can't remember...well either way it doesn't have to be EJ, Yama has other big fiery options.

Jackk
October 26, 2010, 09:30 PM
Not really, yama grabbed aizens arm and the pillars of fire formed, no delay really.

I'm wouldn't be so sure about the "no delay" part.

Maybe we have a difference in interpretation but here:

http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-chapter-406-page-13.html

Yama says to Aizen: "This entire fight of yours up until now...it has all become an opening for this."

And here:

http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-chapter-406-page-14.html

Aizen says to Yama: "So you planned this whilst letting your subordinates get slashed down one after another..." And Yama confirms it.

The way I interpret it, it implies that Yama was preparing that technique while everyone else was fighting Aizen, and not that Yama simply pulled all those fire pillars out of nowhere, as soon as he grabbed Aizen's arm.

Anyway, as for the fight specified in the topic of this thread:

I could see this fight going either way...depending on different conditions and scenarios played.

One could argue Yama's power, and I could definitely see a scenario with him winning, but then again, I could also not see it as impossible for Urahara and Shinji managing a win. Shinji's sakanade would not be all useless, specially since it should be even more helpful in a team battle.

Urahara is always a wild card with all his inventions, techniques, Kido etc...and if Shinji manages a diversion allowing Urahara to get Yama with his reiatsu sealing technique, then it's over for Yama. (Yama cannot come back to life after being destroyed from the inside out by his own reiatsu. Yama doesn't have a Hogyouku inside his chest.)

If all else fails, maybe a diversion or distraction from shinji can allow Urahara to cast, on Yama, a kido with a seal cast within the kido. This would not kill Yama, but it would defeat him.

In short: I can see Yama winning as a possibility, but I could also see Urahara + shinji winning as a possibility. Let's not forget Shinji is no slouch, Captain + Mask + a pretty hax Shikai. Then, Urahara has his techniques, inventions, Kido/sealing techniques, and an intelligence that is #1 in bleach, apparently. (Let's not forget that not all battles are won with brute strength. Intelligence and strategy is extremely important in many battles as well.)

Raizen
October 28, 2010, 07:53 PM
People severely underestimate yama. What makes urahara let alone shinji even a threat to someone like yama. Shinji is a vizard captain. He is around teh same level as kensei. Kensei used bankai and mask and got owned by WW. And yama owned WW as if he was a child (literally). Both urahara and shinji would get decimated by yamamoto. This is completely ridiculous.

Furthermore, on what basis is there that shinji and urahra is better than shunsui and uki. It is nothing but an assumption that has nothing to back it up. While there is evidence from the manga that shunsui and uki are teh best captains of any that came before and any one since. Their skills also act as a way to complement one another.

En Yang Ji
October 29, 2010, 07:46 AM
WW was all speed and power, he had no skill. All Yama had to do was overpower him. This fight would be different than his fight was with WW. Urahara is the most intelligent being in bleach, has haxx inventions and has very strong kido. Shinji has an extremely haxx shikai and a mask.

Even if Yama is a higher level than either Urahara or Shinji he is fighting the both of them and his combat ability would be reduced.

- There's no evidence Shunsui and Ukitake are better than Urahara's and Shinji's current selves. Unless they are far better than Urahara and Shinji it wouldn't matter anyway. At the level they were at, Shunsui and Ukitake were able to hold off Yama.

If we assume that Shinji is the level of the other vizard captains, IMO that should be sufficient to fight Yama. The other vizard captains were able to hold their own against high level opponents. Shinji's haxx shikai would give him the ability to fight someone of a higher level, especially when he has a strong partner.

Urahara's fight with Godzen and all of his abilities that were shown or foreshadowed convinced me he is on a higher level.

Raizen
October 29, 2010, 10:23 AM
WW was all speed and power, he had no skill. All Yama had to do was overpower him. This fight would be different than his fight was with WW. Urahara is the most intelligent being in bleach, has haxx inventions and has very strong kido. Shinji has an extremely haxx shikai and a mask.

Even if Yama is a higher level than either Urahara or Shinji he is fighting the both of them and his combat ability would be reduced.

- There's no evidence Shunsui and Ukitake are better than Urahara's and Shinji's current selves. Unless they are far better than Urahara and Shinji it wouldn't matter anyway. At the level they were at, Shunsui and Ukitake were able to hold off Yama.

If we assume that Shinji is the level of the other vizard captains, IMO that should be sufficient to fight Yama. The other vizard captains were able to hold their own against high level opponents. Shinji's haxx shikai would give him the ability to fight someone of a higher level, especially when he has a strong partner.

Urahara's fight with Godzen and all of his abilities that were shown or foreshadowed convinced me he is on a higher level.
1. "WW had no skill". I completely disagree. Combat powers are skills. He had the skills to take out bankai kensei, he had the skill to get between aizen and yama, he even had the skills to hit off urahara in their last encounter. Intelligence is great, but if u don't have the attacks to back it up it is useless (ie hinamori against halibel's fraccions)

2. Why would his combat powers be reduced? His skills w/o the power of RJ is FAR FAR greater than kensei's bankai and mask powers, the same kensei that is considered a brute

3. Yes, there is evidence, from the manga itself. You just choose to ignore it. On the other hand, there is not a single clue or even inference that states urahara or shinji is on the level of shunsui and uki. Furthermore, shunsui and uki zanpaktous complement one another, so it further increases their strenght when used together. They are one of a kind.

4. You mean the vizard captains that got completely humiliated by starks and then made a fool by aizen. One got his whip caught and the other was trapped by his own teammate's zanpaktou. They were pathetic. And u are comparing them to someone like yama who even aizen stated was superior

5. Urahara's fight w/ aizen was situational. He stated so himself had aizen been his old cautious and KS using way, no way he would be able to cast those kido, let alone set up that trap. So urahara's fight showed us nothing other than the fact his zanpaktou has some other abilities.

exacta
October 29, 2010, 10:50 AM
1. "WW had no skill". I completely disagree. Combat powers are skills. He had the skills to take out bankai kensei, he had the skill to get between aizen and yama, he even had the skills to hit off urahara in their last encounter. Intelligence is great, but if u don't have the attacks to back it up it is useless (ie hinamori against halibel's fraccions)

2. Why would his combat powers be reduced? His skills w/o the power of RJ is FAR FAR greater than kensei's bankai and mask powers, the same kensei that is considered a brute

3. Yes, there is evidence, from the manga itself. You just choose to ignore it. On the other hand, there is not a single clue or even inference that states urahara or shinji is on the level of shunsui and uki. Furthermore, shunsui and uki zanpaktous complement one another, so it further increases their strenght when used together. They are one of a kind.

4. You mean the vizard captains that got completely humiliated by starks and then made a fool by aizen. One got his whip caught and the other was trapped by his own teammate's zanpaktou. They were pathetic. And u are comparing them to someone like yama who even aizen stated was superior

5. Urahara's fight w/ aizen was situational. He stated so himself had aizen been his old cautious and KS using way, no way he would be able to cast those kido, let alone set up that trap. So urahara's fight showed us nothing other than the fact his zanpaktou has some other abilities.

Exactly how do Ukitake and Shunsui's zanpakutos compliment one another? Aside from both being dual pairs, their abilities are probably ALOT different. Their teamwork is supposed to be great, but we haven't really even seen it. And its probably just because they're good friends that their teamwork is good, not because of their zanpakutos, which probably have very different abilities.

Don't be so hard on the Vizards when the other captains got just as badly humiliated too. You forgot how WW oneshotted Ukitake before he could even do anything really. I don't care if he caught him off guard, that was pathetic. Mashiro and Kensei were able to at least put up a decent fight against WW in the form that one shotted Ukitake. And if the Vizards had never shown up, Gotei 13 would've been screwed.

Shunsui got owned by Stark pretty bad too until the Vizards gave him a distraction to sneak in, and Aizen cut him down in one strike too. Shunsui's got cunning,thats his strength. I'm not particularly impressed with his speed or swordsmanship compared to other captains, vizards and espada. Not saying he's not up to par, it's just not what makes him stand out.

I doubt Shunsui and Ukitake are on completely different levels than Urahara and Shinji. They aren't THAT amazing. They haven't even done much really. I'm more impressed with Urahara's feats, his inventions own. And if Shinji gets his shikai off on Yama, that could cause problems(it even got one hit on Aizen, which is more than we can say for any other Vizard or Gotei 13 member), though they would have to act pretty damn ast since Yama could just burn everything around him.....

Raizen
October 29, 2010, 11:05 AM
Exactly how do Ukitake and Shunsui's zanpakutos compliment one another? Aside from both being dual pairs, their abilities are probably ALOT different. Their teamwork is supposed to be great, but we haven't really even seen it. And its probably just because they're good friends that their teamwork is good, not because of their zanpakutos, which probably have very different abilities.

Don't be so hard on the Vizards when the other captains got just as badly humiliated too. You forgot how WW oneshotted Ukitake before he could even do anything really. I don't care if he caught him off guard, that was pathetic. Mashiro and Kensei were able to at least put up a decent fight against WW in the form that one shotted Ukitake. And if the Vizards had never shown up, Gotei 13 would've been screwed.

Shunsui got owned by Stark pretty bad too until the Vizards gave him a distraction to sneak in, and Aizen cut him down in one strike too. Shunsui's got cunning,thats his strength. I'm not particularly impressed with his speed or swordsmanship compared to other captains, vizards and espada. Not saying he's not up to par, it's just not what makes him stand out.

I doubt Shunsui and Ukitake are on completely different levels than Urahara and Shinji. They aren't THAT amazing. They haven't even done much really. I'm more impressed with Urahara's feats, his inventions own. And if Shinji gets his shikai off on Yama, that could cause problems(it even got one hit on Aizen, which is more than we can say for any other Vizard or Gotei 13 member), though they would have to act pretty damn ast since Yama could just burn everything around him.....
1. http://www.mangafox.com/manga/bleach/v18/c155/11.html
Enough said

2. No, the first batch of captains got humiliated on another scale. Aizen took them on w/o KS. But he did use KS on shunsui and them and got them to lower their guards. Had it not been for hitsu going apeshit, aizen wouldn't have had the opening to take them down in one shot. That was pretty much implied.
As for WW, ukitake got taken out with a stab to the heart, mashiro got taken out by a punch to the face. There is a huge difference in the level of injury. And kensei, even after being serious and going bankai using mask, he still got owned

3. Shunsui was never getting owned by starks. I don't know where u got that from. He was going against a released 1st espada with just shikai and yet he was still playing around to an extent.
Shunsui's speed is not impressive? Not only was it complemented by the strongest shinigami ever, he was also able to keep up w/ starks, whose speed was incredible. Furthermore, just a few demonstration of his swordmanship got starks to evaluate shunsui to be a majorly skilled fighter. Don't u think u are being a bit critical

4. Shinji's shikai will fail against yama even more so then it did against aizen. As for urahara's inventions, it won't save him from the scorching flames of RJ. I seriously can't believe how poeple underestimate someone like yamamoto :notrust

En Yang Ji
October 29, 2010, 11:47 AM
1. "WW had no skill". I completely disagree. Combat powers are skills. He had the skills to take out bankai kensei, he had the skill to get between aizen and yama, he even had the skills to hit off urahara in their last encounter. Intelligence is great, but if u don't have the attacks to back it up it is useless (ie hinamori against halibel's fraccions)

2. Why would his combat powers be reduced? His skills w/o the power of RJ is FAR FAR greater than kensei's bankai and mask powers, the same kensei that is considered a brute

3. Yes, there is evidence, from the manga itself. You just choose to ignore it. On the other hand, there is not a single clue or even inference that states urahara or shinji is on the level of shunsui and uki. Furthermore, shunsui and uki zanpaktous complement one another, so it further increases their strenght when used together. They are one of a kind.

4. You mean the vizard captains that got completely humiliated by starks and then made a fool by aizen. One got his whip caught and the other was trapped by his own teammate's zanpaktou. They were pathetic. And u are comparing them to someone like yama who even aizen stated was superior

5. Urahara's fight w/ aizen was situational. He stated so himself had aizen been his old cautious and KS using way, no way he would be able to cast those kido, let alone set up that trap. So urahara's fight showed us nothing other than the fact his zanpaktou has some other abilities.

1. WW had the speed to get between Aizen and Yama, and likely had the speed and power to take out Kensei. It wasn't stated what happened in his battle with Kensei. For all we know Kensei's bankai self destructed, or he decided not to use his mask, or maybe it wore off.

2. Yama's combat ability would be reduced because of Sakanade. We don't know what happened in the Kensei vs WW battle, so it is an assumption that Yama with just his hands is far greater than Kensei with bankai + mask. Who considers Kensei a brute?

3. In the viz translation wasn't stated or implied in anyway that Shunsui and Ukitake are better than Urahara's or Shinji's current selves. It was never stated that Shunsui or Ukitake have phenomenal teamwork in the viz translation.

4. The vizard captains had enough reiastu to take on Starrk's wolves with little damage. Their speed was enough to fight Starrk too. Shunsui never had to face the wolves and when he was about to get hulimated by Starrk's cero's Ukitake bailed him out. Shunsui outright stated he was about to go to bankai. Aizen was only weary of RJ not Yama's skill. He wasn't the least bit afraid of Yama's skill as a shinigami. Also, Aizen said his power was unrivaled by all in SS.

5. Yes, Aizen was being careless, but it doesn't matter anyway. Aizen was being careless because he didn't use the info on the gigai trick, he wouldn't have if it wasn't for Yammy. Yama doesn't have that info.

It was never stated he let Urahara put him in the binding kido. Look here:

http://mangahelpers.com/t/cnet128/releases/22335

Raizen
October 29, 2010, 11:53 AM
1. WW had the speed to get between Aizen and Yama, and likely had the speed and power to take out Kensei. It wasn't stated what happened in his battle with Kensei. For all we know Kensei's bankai self destructed, or he decided not to use his mask, or maybe it wore off.

2. Yama's combat ability would be reduced because of Sakanade. We don't know what happened in the Kensei vs WW battle, so it is an assumption that Yama with just his hands is far greater than Kensei with bankai + mask. Who considers Kensei a brute?

3. In the viz translation wasn't stated or implied in anyway that Shunsui and Ukitake are better than Urahara's or Shinji's current selves. It was never stated that Shunsui or Ukitake have phenomenal teamwork in the viz translation.

4. The vizard captains had enough reiastu to take on Starrk's wolves with little damage. Their speed was enough to fight Starrk too. Shunsui never had to face the wolves and when he was about to get hulimated by Starrk's cero's Ukitake bailed him out. Shunsui outright stated he was about to go to bankai. Aizen was only weary of RJ not Yama's skill. He wasn't the least bit afraid of Yama's skill as a shinigami. Also, Aizen said his power was unrivaled by all in SS.

5. Yes, Aizen was being careless, but it doesn't matter anyway. Aizen was being careless because he didn't use the info on the gigai trick, he wouldn't have if it wasn't for Yammy. Yama doesn't have that info.

It was never stated he let Urahara put him in the binding kido. Look here:

http://mangahelpers.com/t/cnet128/releases/22335
1. Kensei lost. No way around that buddy. Stop trying to grasp at straws. No BS like his bankai self-destructed.

2. Kensei lost to WW, hence yama w/ just his fist is >>>> Kensei

3. Post a pic of it then

4. I wouldn't call that little damage, they seemed pretty beaten down. Starks was sure he would finish them off. And their reiatsu pales in comparison to starks considering love w/ his bid ass shikai and mask hit starks and didn't leave a scratch. Furthermore, their speed was inferior to starks, they lost sight of him twice.
As for shunsui, he dodge dozens of ceros. Saying he was humiliated is completely wrong

5. No, he was being careless b/c he let urahra try all the attacks on him. Says so in the manga. Otherwise he would have used KS or counterattacked. He was simply amused at what urahara wanted to try

En Yang Ji
October 29, 2010, 12:04 PM
1. Kensei lost. No way around that buddy. Stop trying to grasp at straws. No BS like his bankai self-destructed.

2. Kensei lost to WW, hence yama w/ just his fist is >>>> Kensei

3. Post a pic of it then

4. I wouldn't call that little damage, they seemed pretty beaten down. Starks was sure he would finish them off. And their reiatsu pales in comparison to starks considering love w/ his bid ass shikai and mask hit starks and didn't leave a scratch. Furthermore, their speed was inferior to starks, they lost sight of him twice.
As for shunsui, he dodge dozens of ceros. Saying he was humiliated is completely wrong

5. No, he was being careless b/c he let urahra try all the attacks on him. Says so in the manga. Otherwise he would have used KS or counterattacked. He was simply amused at what urahara wanted to try

1. Dude, Kensei's bankai may actually self-destruct after five minutes for all we know. We don't know it's abilities. That may be one of them.

2. A lot of other things could of happened, just because Yama with bare hands >> WW doesn't mean Yama with bare hands > Kensei with bankai and mask.

3. I don't have a pic, I have the volume with it in it.

4. Starrk had an amazing number of wolves, that's likely why he was sure he could beat them. If 3 or 4 can knock the wind out of them imagine what 50 could do.

5. Regarding Aizen being careless, look at the link I posted in my last post. These are the ways Aizen was being careless in his battle with only Urahara:


1. Not using the info on Urahara's gigai trick
2. Not using KS
3. Getting close to Urahara twice with no plan.

Raizen
October 29, 2010, 12:27 PM
1. Dude, Kensei's bankai may actually self-destruct after five minutes for all we know. We don't know it's abilities. That may be one of them.

2. A lot of other things could of happened, just because Yama with bare hands >> WW doesn't mean Yama with bare hands > Kensei with bankai and mask.

3. I don't have a pic, I have the volume with it in it.

4. Starrk had an amazing number of wolves, that's likely why he was sure he could beat them. If 3 or 4 can knock the wind out of them imagine what 50 could do.

5. Regarding Aizen being careless, look at the link I posted in my last post. These are the ways Aizen was being careless in his battle with only Urahara:


1. Not using the info Urahara's gigai trick
2. Not using KS
3. Getting lose to Urahara twice with no plan.
1. What u are doing is making up stuff. There is no indication that something like that would remotely even happen. All we know is that WW owned kensei hard, most likely b4 WW even released

2. Yes it does. In bleach, battle is about reiatsu. And yama clearly crushed WW.

3. Take a pic

4. So it shows starks is superior to 2 vizard captains. The same captains who should be around the level of shinji

5. Not using KS is a HUGE factor. He was also careless b/c he let urahara try all those attacks on him. He even attacked carelessly. That was clearly out of character. So again, it doesn't help urahara's case.

En Yang Ji
October 29, 2010, 12:41 PM
We are getting off topic. Let's pm each other.

Raizen
October 29, 2010, 12:47 PM
That's ok. I know where u stand. U overestimate the vizards, and i honestly believe they suck. So let's leave it at that

Takahashi
October 29, 2010, 12:49 PM
1. What u are doing is making up stuff. There is no indication that something like that would remotely even happen. All we know is that WW owned kensei hard, most likely b4 WW even released

2. Yes it does. In bleach, battle is about reiatsu. And yama clearly crushed WW.

3. Take a pic

4. So it shows starks is superior to 2 vizard captains. The same captains who should be around the level of shinji

5. Not using KS is a HUGE factor. He was also careless b/c he let urahara try all those attacks on him. He even attacked carelessly. That was clearly out of character. So again, it doesn't help urahara's case.

I'm not sure where the Bankai self destruction is coming from, is there any evidence at all to that?

I disagree with #2 though. Reiatsu is important, what's even more important is ability, because we don't have any of Kensei's abilities to discuss, we can't REALLY compare it to Yama's hands. At the same time, we KNOW that WW's abilities gave him no advantage against Kensei, so that makes him look even worse.

That being said, WW took out Kensei and suffered no prior injuries, he was in perfect shape, yet one punch from Yama blew his chest open. He proceeded to rip off arms and just brutally kill him with little effort. That's all the proof I need to say Yama fists>Kensei Bankai.


I also don't believe this is off topic, you can't predict a fight between people without looking at what has happened previously. Kensei is a barometer for Shinji in this case, what's wrong with that?

En Yang Ji
October 29, 2010, 01:15 PM
I'm not sure where the Bankai self destruction is coming from, is there any evidence at all to that?

I disagree with #2 though. Reiatsu is important, what's even more important is ability, because we don't have any of Kensei's abilities to discuss, we can't REALLY compare it to Yama's hands. At the same time, we KNOW that WW's abilities gave him no advantage against Kensei, so that makes him look even worse.

That being said, WW took out Kensei and suffered no prior injuries, he was in perfect shape, yet one punch from Yama blew his chest open. He proceeded to rip off arms and just brutally kill him with little effort. That's all the proof I need to say Yama fists>Kensei Bankai.


I also don't believe this is off topic, you can't predict a fight between people without looking at what has happened previously. Kensei is a barometer for Shinji in this case, what's wrong with that?

- I don't think Kensei's bankai self-destructed and I know its unlikely. I just was trying to show that we don't what happen. Many different things could of happened without Kensei being completely dominated.

- WW has the best HSR in the series, he could of been severely damaged and just regenerated.

WW has almost no skill, he's all speed and power. Kensei may not have the speed and power WW has but he has his intelligence, skill and bankai ability. Also speed and power are likely high as well.

It would be a different match up.

Raizen
October 29, 2010, 01:40 PM
Raw power and speed in bleach can which u 99% of the fights in bleach. Just look at yama with just his fists.

I disagree w/ u saying WW has no skills. It really depends on what u define as skills. He may not have intelligence, but he definitely has skills in his abilities. And calling kensei intelligent when he has yet to do anything intelligent worthy is a double standard. In the end, his skills and bankai didn't amount to much since he got owned and the author didn't even care to show him.

Takahashi
October 29, 2010, 01:46 PM
- I don't think Kensei's bankai self-destructed and I know its unlikely. I just was trying to show that we don't what happen. Many different things could of happened without Kensei being completely dominated.

- WW has the best HSR in the series, he could of been severely damaged and just regenerated.

WW has almost no skill, he's all speed and power. Kensei may not have the speed and power WW has but he has his intelligence, skill and bankai ability. Also speed and power are likely high as well.

It would be a different match up.

The thing is, Kubo didn't even bother to show us what happened. The arc ended, he won't show us Kensei putting up a valiant effort and losing to some amazing attack, he just left it as an off screen defeat. When that happens, it's difficult to think highly of the loser.

I also didn't know WW has the best HSR in the series, where is that stated? I'd always assumed it was Ulq.

Intelligence? WW has the IQ of a Ritz Cracker, everyone is smarter than he is. It's also obvious that none of the factors you mentioned mattered in the fight. You can be as smart as you want, have perfect technique, and a great ability, but if something can move so fast you can't even track it and hit a lot harder, you WILL lose.

Think of it this way, WW and Yama were the same, both were completely unarmed, and relied PURELY on physical fighting power, if one unarmed guy can win over Bankai Kensei, then the other unarmed guy that ripped the former into pieces with his bare hands should be able to dish out the same to Kensei correct? Yama's lack of HSR doesn't factor in here, in fact, it does nothing but prove that Yama hits SO hard, that if you don't have HSR you'd be dead pretty much instantaneously.

El Samurai Guapo
October 29, 2010, 02:50 PM
The only thing Shinji and Kensei have in common is that they both have masks. Other than that their skills and abilities are totally different. It's like comparing Toushirou and Kenpachi just because they're both captains.

Oh and just very quickly, about Kensei, the whole thing between him and WW still seems fishy to me. Am I the only one that found it strange he was the only one that wasn't shown in the aftermath? At this point, if it turned out that he allowed WW to escape and go after Yamamoto, I wouldn't be very surprised.

Let's stay on topic here though, this is about Shinji and Kisuke not WW and Kensei.

Jackk
October 29, 2010, 04:54 PM
In regards to the typical "Yama said Shunsui and Ukitake's abilities were the best among those that came before and after them" .... I will say that that is not a very good argument because that was at the time. In other words, Yama had not seen anything from Urahara and Shinji in over 100 years..since they were gone.

Not to mention that I doubt that Yama would have known everything about Urahara and shinji 100 years ago, and even assuming that Yama did know about all of Urahara's and shinji's abilities 100 years ago, I'm fairly certain that both Urahara and Shinji have changed and learned new abilities and tricks after so many years now.

Also, this fight is NOT about Shunsui and Ukitake Vs Urahara and Shinji.

Honestly, I'm tired of people bringing Shunsui and Ukitake into these discussions, specially when they're not even in the topic being discussed in the thread.

Going back on topic:

I can certainly see it possible for Yama to win, but I also don't see it as impossible for a combined effort from Urahara and Shinji to win. If they managed to get Yama with Urahara's reiatsu sealing technique, Yama is done. Yama would be destroyed from the inside out by his own reiatsu, and Yama does not have a Hogyouku to regenerate like Aizen did.

I also don't see as "impossible" for a scenario where they can get Urahara to cast, on Yama, a kido with a seal cast within the kido. This would not kill Yama, but it should certainly defeat him.

Also, it is two against one, granted Yama is very powerful...but Urahara is the smartest man in bleach and processes some pretty hax inventions and techniques, and people really underestimate Shinji's shikai and powers.

Shinji's shikai should be even more helpful in a team battle, and I actually think that Urahara and Shinji would make a pretty good team, but maybe that's just my opinion.

There's just different things that could happen, and I just personally see this fight going either way depending on the circumstances, and scenarios played out.

Basically, I suppose I just don't agree with those saying that Urahara and Shinji together would not even have a chance at all.

SaintSheik
October 29, 2010, 05:44 PM
Urahara, with Isshin and Yoruichi, couldn't stop Aizen. Considering the fact that Aizen more or less admitted that Yamamoto is more powerful than himself, I feel as though Yamamoto would defeat Urahara paired with Shinji. Haxx and cunning wouldn't be enough against the Captain-Commander's raw power IMO.

En Yang Ji
October 29, 2010, 05:59 PM
Urahara, with Isshin and Yoruichi, couldn't stop Aizen. Considering the fact that Aizen more or less admitted that Yamamoto is more powerful than himself, I feel as though Yamamoto would defeat Urahara paired with Shinji. Haxx and cunning wouldn't be enough against the Captain-Commander's raw power IMO.

Aizen before his transformation thought Yama might beat him. Later on he said that his own power was unrivaled by all in SS before the HG. Urahara and Co. fought a transformed that's why they lost.

Urahara and Shinji IMO definitely have a shot at beating Yama.

Jackk
October 29, 2010, 07:06 PM
Aizen before his transformation thought Yama might beat him. Later on he said that his own power was unrivaled by all in SS before the HG. Urahara and Co. fought a transformed that's why they lost.

Urahara and Shinji IMO definitely have a shot at beating Yama.

^ This.

Also, the fact that when Urahara and Co. fought Aizen, they were just not going to be able to kill him no matter what... due to the Hogyouku. One of the recent chapters even mentioned that Aizen is actually immortal. (again, likely due to the hogyouku)

Urahara alone was able to destroy Aizen from the inside out, with his reiatsu sealing technique. And Aizen himself stated that had that been anyone else (or himself without the hogyouku), that would have certainly finished the fight.

Urahara was even smart enough to know that he was not going to be able to destroy Aizen due to the Hogyoku, so he had already planted a kido inside a kido to seal Aizen later. That was his plan all along, apparently.

Now to tie all that with our main topic,

I don't think it's fair to say that since Urahara and Co. couldn't kill Aizen, then Urahara and Shinji have no chance at all of beating Yama. Do consider that Aizen was immortal because of the Hogyoku, Yama is not immortal. Therefore, there is no way that Yama would survive being destroyed from the inside out by his own reiatsu etc. And it's also not impossible for him to get sealed.

I'm probably just repeating myself at this point though...

SaintSheik
October 29, 2010, 09:20 PM
True but if I recall, Urahara was able to catch Aizen with kidou after kidou due to Aizen being less cautious once the Hogyouku began to show its power. I'd rather not use any other character as a basis of Urahara/Shinji vs. Yama but Aizen gave praise to Yama's power and cunning.

The self-reiatsu explosion Urahara used on Aizen was something else and would probably kill Aizen had it not been for the hogyouku but I think Urahara said something along the lines of an attack of that caliber being enough to defeat 'any old monster' and after seeing the old man withstand his own flames, I think Yama is a cut above that.

El Samurai Guapo
October 29, 2010, 11:55 PM
after seeing the old man withstand his own flames, I think Yama is a cut above that.

Naturally you would expect that Yamamoto would have extra resilience to flames though wouldn't you? Particularly his own. Otherwise, how could he spam all his fire attacks without constantly burning himself? It's kinda like how Toushirou's ice doesn't affect him either.

Jackk
October 30, 2010, 12:18 AM
True but if I recall, Urahara was able to catch Aizen with kidou after kidou due to Aizen being less cautious once the Hogyouku began to show its power. I'd rather not use any other character as a basis of Urahara/Shinji vs. Yama but Aizen gave praise to Yama's power and cunning.

Aizen wasn't as cautious as he would normally be, but still... he didn't sit there willingly letting Urahara cast the Kidou on him. Aizen actually did not want to get hit by that Kido that Urahara used.

You can see that in the following link:

http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-chapter-415-page-13.html

Also, the following link is of the translation for that particular chapter:

http://mangahelpers.com/t/cnet128/releases/22335



The self-reiatsu explosion Urahara used on Aizen was something else and would probably kill Aizen had it not been for the hogyouku

Well, I wouldn't say "probably." Aizen himself stated that that technique would have ended the battle.

And basically that it would have ended it against any other person, including Aizen himself, had he not have fused with the Hogyoku. Yama is not fused with a Hogyoku, there is no way that Yama can survive being destroyed by all his reiatsu exploding from the inside out.

http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-chapter-416-page-8.html


but I think Urahara said something along the lines of an attack of that caliber being enough to defeat 'any old monster' and after seeing the old man withstand his own flames, I think Yama is a cut above that.

well...what Urahara actually said was this:

"Not quite yet. It'd be cute if that was all it took to finish things. In that case he'd be like any other monster."

http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-chapter-416-page-4.html

What can he possibly mean? Well it logically means that Urahara knew that even destroying Aizen from the inside out was not going to finish him because the Hogyoku was not going to allow it. Basically, Urahara was saying that Aizen was a monster, but that he was not like any other monster because Aizen was pretty much immortal due to the Hogyouku. Therefore, he was not like any other monster that could actually still be killed.

Also, remember that Urahara had already figured that he was not going to be able to kill Aizen because of the Hogyoku. Urahara actually used that sealing Kido within the Kido that he used on Aizen BEFORE he used the reiatsu sealing technique. Therefore, at the time of using the reiatsu sealing technique and everything after that, Urahara was just buying time, and trying to weaken Aizen as much as possible in order to reach a point where his sealing technique would effectively activate. Urahara had planned from the beginning to seal Aizen.

Here you can see when Urahara actually implanted the sealing kido inside Aizen (it shows in the flashback that it was before using the reiatsu sealing technique): http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-chapter-434-page-14.html

Here Urahara explains how his reiatsu sealing technique works:

http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-chapter-415-page-19.html
http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-chapter-415-page-20.html

It basically seals the reiatsu flowing out of a person's palm, thus the person will be blasted by their own reiatsu from the inside out. Reiatsu is something that every shinigami has, so it's not like it was made to work only on Aizen. If the person has reiatsu...it will work on that person.

I don't believe that it's accurate to compare Yama receiving the exploding flames from Wonderweiss, to Yama himself actually exploding from the inside out by being blasted by all of his own reiatsu. There is no way that anyone, without a hogyoku, could survive such a thing.

Gran Maestro
October 30, 2010, 03:58 AM
I agree that Urahara's reiatsu sealing technique can finish Yamamoto but I believe Urahara wouldn't have any chance to use this technique on an Aizen who doesn't have the hougyoku and Urahara won't have any chance to use this technique on Yamamoto unless Yamamoto puts a hougyoku in his chest and starts gloating. Shinji's power doesn't provide the necessary opening for Urahara, the directions are changed but Yamamoto can still understand whether they are near or far away because of the symmetry. And when they are near, Yamamoto's fire makes the direction irrelevant because it attacks in every direction. Yamamoto eventually burns them down.

Aizen & Urahara would be a much better team against Yamamoto because Aizen's power is an upgraded version of Shinji's, it doesn't give any hints about the relative position of the enemy. In this case, Yamamoto would try to buy time until he gathers enough reiatsu to execute EJ.

Frankly, I don't see how Urahara & Shinji team can succeed what Shunsui & Ukitake team can't. I simply can't agree that Shunsui & Ukitake are so inferior if this is what people suggest. Any team that doesn't include Aizen loses to Yamamoto and even then, no amount of opponents can guarantee a win against Yamamoto if they won't be so overwhelming that they won't give enough time to Yamamoto to use EJ, Yamamoto is that strong.

One last thing, Yamamoto can always run away, prepares EJ, comes back and wreaks havoc, I don't think they can catch him but I don't like creating this kind of loopholes when arguing about fights. Also we have to question whether reiatsu seal is something Urahara always carries with him. If Urahara knows he will fight Yamamoto and brings a reiatsu seal, we can say that Yamamoto knows he will fight Urahara & Shinji or Aizen or whoever, prepares himself for EJ and wins immediately against any opponent(s).

SaintSheik
October 30, 2010, 07:13 AM
Naturally you would expect that Yamamoto would have extra resilience to flames though wouldn't you? Particularly his own. Otherwise, how could he spam all his fire attacks without constantly burning himself? It's kinda like how Toushirou's ice doesn't affect him either.I figured as much but at the same time, I don't think we've ever seen anything that would suggest that. Sure it makes sense but the flames that WW absorbed were from that Ennetsu Jigoku technique, something that was powerful enough to destroy Yamamoto himself. That and from what we've seen from Yamamoto, the times he used flames were never done in a way where he himself would be burned. We can count the time he's been in combat with our hands and from there, I think we've seen him release his blade, produce a flaming cage of sorts, defeat the Ayon and the fraccion, and of course Ennetsu Jigoku.@ Jackk- You've made a lot of really good points. Even though Urahara/Shinji vs. the old man will never happen, I believe that through what we've actually seen these characters do combined with what we know they are capable of still has me in a place where I'm leaning towards the Captain Commander. Strongest Shinigami in the last 1,000 years, treating Aizen of all people like naive delinquent, etc. gives the vibe that he would give the two exiled captains a hell of a run.

Primecut
November 07, 2010, 05:33 AM
Shinji was talking down to Yama to his face so he can probably mess him up with Sakanade but would eventually lose. But Urahara could likely solo Yamamoto due to way more intelligence, better techniques shown, and tricks which the old man would be susceptible to. The old man hasnt shown much intelligence and was outwitted by Aizen (whos second to Urahara in intelligence supposedly). Yamamoto was also slower than Aizen because he got stabbed from behind when the duel started and that means he isnt the fastest Shinigami. The only thing Yama really has going for him is excessive strength a powerful zanpakto but Shinji said that the stronger the fighter the more his Sakanade will affect them. Sakanade + Urahara (who can probably solo)....man, Yama wont even be able to release before Urahara laser snipes him while he's stuck in Sakanade.

Gran Maestro
November 07, 2010, 01:11 PM
Shinji was talking down to Yama to his face so he can probably mess him up with Sakanade but would eventually lose. But Urahara could likely solo Yamamoto due to way more intelligence, better techniques shown, and tricks which the old man would be susceptible to. The old man hasnt shown much intelligence and was outwitted by Aizen (whos second to Urahara in intelligence supposedly). Yamamoto was also slower than Aizen because he got stabbed from behind when the duel started and that means he isnt the fastest Shinigami. The only thing Yama really has going for him is excessive strength a powerful zanpakto but Shinji said that the stronger the fighter the more his Sakanade will affect them. Sakanade + Urahara (who can probably solo)....man, Yama wont even be able to release before Urahara laser snipes him while he's stuck in Sakanade.

Yamamoto got stabbed on purpose because he was trying to catch the real Aizen and getting stabbed was the only foolproof way to understand whether it was real Aizen. Of course you knew that after it was stated countless times but it probably slipped your mind. On the contrary, Yamamoto was so fast that Aizen would have lost his head if WW hadn't come to his rescue:

http://mangable.com/bleach/chapter-394/08/

Yamamoto's zanpakuto was so powerful that even Aizen didn't dare challenge him and made a custom arrancar to fight for him instead. How do you think Shinji's or Urahara's zanpakuto can help against techniques like EJ which attacks everything in vicinity? Why do you think Aizen was so scared of RJ? And Kubo didn't even let Aizen fight and defeat a barehanded Yamamoto, perhaps Yamamoto was right, he was so strong that Aizen stood no chance at all:

http://mangable.com/bleach/chapter-394/06/

Yamamoto defeated the possibly strongest arrancar with his bare hands, if it doesn't ring a bell, nothing will.

Primecut
November 07, 2010, 07:16 PM
Yamamoto got stabbed on purpose because he was trying to catch the real Aizen and getting stabbed was the only foolproof way to understand whether it was real Aizen. Of course you knew that after it was stated countless times but it probably slipped your mind. On the contrary, Yamamoto was so fast that Aizen would have lost his head if WW hadn't come to his rescue:

http://mangable.com/bleach/chapter-394/08/

Yamamoto's zanpakuto was so powerful that even Aizen didn't dare challenge him and made a custom arrancar to fight for him instead. How do you think Shinji's or Urahara's zanpakuto can help against techniques like EJ which attacks everything in vicinity? Why do you think Aizen was so scared of RJ? And Kubo didn't even let Aizen fight and defeat a barehanded Yamamoto, perhaps Yamamoto was right, he was so strong that Aizen stood no chance at all:

http://mangable.com/bleach/chapter-394/06/

Yamamoto defeated the possibly strongest arrancar with his bare hands, if it doesn't ring a bell, nothing will.

Yama this, Yama that, the fact is that Yama got beat without much difficulty by Cap'n Aizen. In this fight he can't use EJ because that technique took many chapters to prepare. It also has no feats because Aizen countered it. If Aizen can counter it then simple logic is that Urahara can counter it (if it were in the fight but it isnt).

Anyway, heres how I see this fight going. Yama flexes his flame muscles a little and talks down to Urahara and Shinji and before he knows it he is laser sniped by Urahara while Shinji's sakanade keeps him offguard. He begins to realize that things arent quite what they seem but is unable to figure out he is in an optical illusion until it is too late. These two would just pick him apart in Sakanade.

And we already saw how easy Aizen pierced him with his shikai so I have no doubt that he cant tank laser beams. Actually, Yama's durability is nothing special and he was KOed by his own zanpakto. Aizen tanked Yamamoto's kidou unscathed but Yamamoto cant even take his own attack? If you cant stand the heat get out of the kitchen IMO. Somebody stick a fork in Yama, because hes done in this fight.

Jackk
November 07, 2010, 07:42 PM
Yama this, Yama that, the fact is that Yama got beat without much difficulty by Cap'n Aizen. In this fight he can't use EJ because that technique took many chapters to prepare. It also has no feats because Aizen countered it. If Aizen can counter it then simple logic is that Urahara can counter it (if it were in the fight but it isnt).

Anyway, heres how I see this fight going. Yama flexes his flame muscles a little and talks down to Urahara and Shinji and before he knows it he is laser sniped by Urahara while Shinji's sakanade keeps him offguard. He begins to realize that things arent quite what they seem but is unable to figure out he is in an optical illusion until it is too late. These two would just pick him apart in Sakanade.

And we already saw how easy Aizen pierced him with his shikai so I have no doubt that he cant tank laser beams. Actually, Yama's durability is nothing special and he was KOed by his own zanpakto. Aizen tanked Yamamoto's kidou unscathed but Yamamoto cant even take his own attack? If you cant stand the heat get out of the kitchen IMO. Somebody stick a fork in Yama, because hes done in this fight.

As much as I like Urahara and Shinji... even I admit that it would not be nearly as easy as you're putting it.

My argument is that If they can find an opening to use Urahara's reiatsu sealing technique or cast a kido with a seal within the Kido, then they could win that way.

Yama likely has more chances of winning here. He's very strong and powerful.

It basically comes down to whether or not you think that Urahara and Shinji have a chance (however small it may be) to use the reiatsu sealing technique or sealing kido on Yama. It's pretty much established the either of those would defeat Yama if he is caught with that. I've never said it would be easy though.. because let's face it, Yama is just more powerful.

Even if Urahara can find the opening to use his reiatsu sealing technique, Yama is still technically going down by being destroyed by his own power. (Similar to how Aizen took Yama down using Yama's own power, basically)


Yamamoto would try to buy time until he gathers enough reiatsu to execute EJ.

About this, IF Yama get's the time to execute EJ, wouldn't that technically end the fight in a draw?

Yama said to Aizen that he was going to kill himself and take Aizen with him using that technique. The Captains lying in the ground near that area were also going to die etc.

Gran Maestro
November 08, 2010, 03:30 AM
Yama said to Aizen that he was going to kill himself and take Aizen with him using that technique. The Captains lying in the ground near that area were also going to die etc.

That's right, he said that but it later turned out that he wasn't dying because he absorbed the full power of the blast and survived. Yamamoto had insane tanking abilities (IMO even surpassing Kenpachi) and some people speculate that he has resistance to fire because he has a fire-type zanpakuto just like Hitsugaya is expected to have some sort of resistance (but not immunity) to ice attacks even if they come from other people like Rukia. Perhaps Yamamoto said he was going to die because he didn't want to look like a jerk who was about to kill all his men but himself survive.

As a side note, I don't think EJ is a suicidal technique. Yamamoto had to put himself in harm's way because he didn't have the option to spread his flames freely because of the possible consequences (like destroying the barrier), he had to confine them to a certain area and he had to hold Aizen in this area near himself which would make it very hard for him to target Aizen without doing any damage to himself. I don't think Yamamoto will have any concern about human lives in this fight with no plot constraints.


Yama this, Yama that, the fact is that Yama got beat without much difficulty by Cap'n Aizen. In this fight he can't use EJ because that technique took many chapters to prepare. It also has no feats because Aizen countered it. If Aizen can counter it then simple logic is that Urahara can counter it (if it were in the fight but it isnt).

Your simple logic is overly simplistic, Einstein said "Make everything as simple as possible, but not simpler." Unfortunately you make this mistake in all of your posts, your simple logic results in paradoxes like "Shikai Ichigo defeated Kenpachi, Dordonii overpowered shikai Ichigo, therefore Dordonii was stronger than Kenpachi." Look deeper.

Now I'll do your homework and tell you where you go wrong:

Aizen used hougyoku's power to create a custom arrancar,

1) Will Urahara have hougyoku in this fight to create his own custom arrancar?

2) Is Urahara allowed to bring a WW clone?

3) Aizen's plan depended on Yamamoto's concern about human lives, have you ever thought that Yamamoto could just let WW explode and wave Aizen bye bye? Does he have to absorb his own flames in case Urahara has his own version of WW?

We don't know how much time Yamamoto needs to prepare EJ and I think it would be quite hard to finish Yamamoto before he gathers enough reiatsu to use it.

If Urahara was the bad guy, he could certainly set up a similar scenario to handle Yamamoto, I think even Mayuri is a legitimate threat to anybody, it's just that we're talking about a fictional fight with no plot constraints.


Actually, Yama's durability is nothing special and he was KOed by his own zanpakto. Aizen tanked Yamamoto's kidou unscathed but Yamamoto cant even take his own attack?

You don't give enough credit to the old man, his durability shocked even Aizen and you say it was nothing special:

http://mangable.com/bleach/chapter-395/12/

The strongest shikai technique of the strongest zanpakuto certainly has much more power than any kido. I don't think a kido that is capable of destroying cities exists. On top that, Yamamoto was severely injured when he cast Hado 96, it had only a fraction of its power but it was enough to make Aizen run away before killing Yamamoto whom he was trying to kill. Not to mention the fact that Aizen had a hougyoku in his chest which was healing his injuries, we don't know the tanking abilities of Aizen, hougyoku blurred everything.

vizardichigo
November 08, 2010, 04:18 AM
Why do you guys even bother responding to Primecut anymore??? Anyway, about the topic...I can see Yama winning this fight...He is excessively fast, maybe faster than Aizen, ridiculosuly powerful, is a master of kidou and is not afraid to put his body on the line...As well as RJ being hella strong...That being said Urahara and Shinji can still have a chance...If Shinji uses Sakanade, then even Yama would have a hard time adapting...I dont think just wildly spreading fire around would work either...If he uses flames to defend himself, Shinji could simply hang back, look for an opening and attack or even use kidou...Then Urahara and Benihime could attack Yama while his bearings were of from a distance...

But the minute Yama get used to the reverse world, this fight is done...One punch would kill either of them...So the longer the fight goes on, the better chance Yama has...If Yama simply gets fed up and floods the entire area with flames and encloses it, similar to EJ then its gonna be over as well....Its pretty much like the Gin vs Byakuya fight, where Byakuya has a chance, but one hit and he's dead...Same for Kisuke and Shinji...All in all i would say its too hard to call..The best Shinji and Kisuke can hope for is a draw..Yama has a chance of winning this fight....And to the person that said Aizen only feared RJ, not Yama you are wrong...If that was true he would have attacked him the minute WW sealed RJ...But he didnt, why? Because even without RJ Aizen wasnt sure of victory...IMO he would have won against a RJ less Yama, but he would have had a few broken ribs to show for it as Yama used the stab Aizen gave him to sense where the real Aizen was so KS would have been useless at that time..Ill say a draw but Yama has a better chance...

En Yang Ji
November 08, 2010, 09:11 AM
This match up depends on whether or not Urahara can hit Yama with one of his two seals. While Yama is under Sakanade's effect, Shinji can get behind Yama and distract him while Urahara uses Rikujou Kouru unseen.

From there Urahara can use more bakudo and than his seal.

- the reason Aizen didn't attack Yama was because he thought WW was enough to beat him alone.

Primecut
November 14, 2010, 12:53 AM
Why do you guys even bother responding to Primecut anymore???

Doesn't that discredit your question?


But the minute Yama get used to the reverse world, this fight is done...One punch would kill either of them...So the longer the fight goes on, the better chance Yama has...If Yama simply gets fed up and floods the entire area with flames and encloses it, similar to EJ then its gonna be over as well....Its pretty much like the Gin vs Byakuya fight, where Byakuya has a chance, but one hit and he's dead...Same for Kisuke and Shinji...All in all i would say its too hard to call..The best Shinji and Kisuke can hope for is a draw..Yama has a chance of winning this fight....And to the person that said Aizen only feared RJ, not Yama you are wrong...If that was true he would have attacked him the minute WW sealed RJ...But he didnt, why? Because even without RJ Aizen wasnt sure of victory...IMO he would have won against a RJ less Yama, but he would have had a few broken ribs to show for it as Yama used the stab Aizen gave him to sense where the real Aizen was so KS would have been useless at that time..Ill say a draw but Yama has a better chance...

You do realize Lord Aizen took Yama on and put a sword through his gut via speedblitz. Cap'n Aizen still had the smirk on his face when Yama grabbed his arm. Then Wonderweis came in ONLY when Yama was going to suicide. He couldnt win straight up so he decided to take Aizen down with him. At that point Yama had forfeited any opportunity to fight Aizen legitimately. I give Aizen that match evenhandedly, he performed a lot better and Yama was the first to cheat.

-Ken-
November 14, 2010, 04:52 AM
Take in mind guys that Yamamoto lost an arm. That might handicap him a bit.

Raizen
November 19, 2010, 12:38 PM
This match up depends on whether or not Urahara can hit Yama with one of his two seals. While Yama is under Sakanade's effect, Shinji can get behind Yama and distract him while Urahara uses Rikujou Kouru unseen.

From there Urahara can use more bakudo and than his seal.

- the reason Aizen didn't attack Yama was because he thought WW was enough to beat him alone.
Yama would move to fast for urahara to get any seals or bakudo on him. Furthermore, yama can surround himself in a wall of fire that can fend off any incoming kido. The guy is a freaking beast. Urahara only managed to get those seals on aizen b/c
1. He wasn't using KS
2. He let his guard down and couldn't care less
3. He wanted to see what urahara had planned for him

And aizen didn't join the fight b/c he was afraid. The guy already admitted yama could beat him.What else do u want him to say?

En Yang Ji
November 19, 2010, 03:04 PM
Yama would move to fast for urahara to get any seals or bakudo on him. Furthermore, yama can surround himself in a wall of fire that can fend off any incoming kido. The guy is a freaking beast. Urahara only managed to get those seals on aizen b/c
1. He wasn't using KS
2. He let his guard down and couldn't care less
3. He wanted to see what urahara had planned for him

And aizen didn't join the fight b/c he was afraid. The guy already admitted yama could beat him.What else do u want him to say?

Yama wouldn't move that fast under Saknade's effect, especially if a masked Shinji is distracting him. If Yama is surrounded by a wall of fire he wouldn't be able to see his opponents. Also he wouldn't see what Urahara was doing, if he was behind him.

- Aizen didn't say he wanted to see what Urahara had planned for him, until after he fully transformed.

- Aizen wasn't the least bit afraid. He closed his eyes, before getting behind Yama and stabbing him. The only thing he was weary of was RJ. Also even though Aizen said he would probably lose in a direct fight and that Yama's offensive power eclipses even his own, he also said his own power was unrivaled in all of SS.

Primecut
November 19, 2010, 05:56 PM
And aizen didn't join the fight b/c he was afraid. The guy already admitted yama could beat him.What else do u want him to say?

http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-chapter-244-page-5.html

http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-chapter-244-page-6.html

Now let's see your evidence that Lord Aizen-sama was afraid of Yamamoto, the same Yamamoto who lost to one of Aizen's minions...heh.

Raizen
November 22, 2010, 01:55 PM
Yama wouldn't move that fast under Saknade's effect, especially if a masked Shinji is distracting him. If Yama is surrounded by a wall of fire he wouldn't be able to see his opponents. Also he wouldn't see what Urahara was doing, if he was behind him.

- Aizen didn't say he wanted to see what Urahara had planned for him, until after he fully transformed.

- Aizen wasn't the least bit afraid. He closed his eyes, before getting behind Yama and stabbing him. The only thing he was weary of was RJ. Also even though Aizen said he would probably lose in a direct fight and that Yama's offensive power eclipses even his own, he also said his own power was unrivaled in all of SS.
sakanade is an illusion. It doesn't restrict yama's movements in any way. 1. He can still shuunpo and dodge flawlessly. Sure he may go right instead of left, but does it matter as long as he can avoid danger? Furthermore, i don't see shinji being capable of distracting yama. The guy almost speed blitzed aizen if WW had not intervened and his reflexes are among the best

2. He let his guard down from the beginning b/c he wanted to test not only his powers, but also urahara

3. A zanpaktou is part of the shinigami. Yama and RJ are one in the same. Even after yama took the full hit of the explosion, aizen was still wary and cautious in approaching him. Then he later ran from a half dead yama. So yea, he was afraid.
Aizen is a cocky bastard. Any statements regarding himself are disregarded to me. Statements regarding other people, like yama being superior or urahara being smarter, that I would take into consideration
[hr]

http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-chapter-244-page-5.html

http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-chapter-244-page-6.html

Now let's see your evidence that Lord Aizen-sama was afraid of Yamamoto, the same Yamamoto who lost to one of Aizen's minions...heh.
So we are going to take the words of some lowly hollow over the words of aizen himself?! Ok, u keep on believing that

En Yang Ji
November 22, 2010, 02:44 PM
sakanade is an illusion. It doesn't restrict yama's movements in any way. 1. He can still shuunpo and dodge flawlessly. Sure he may go right instead of left, but does it matter as long as he can avoid danger? Furthermore, i don't see shinji being capable of distracting yama. The guy almost speed blitzed aizen if WW had not intervened and his reflexes are among the best

2. He let his guard down from the beginning b/c he wanted to test not only his powers, but also urahara

3. A zanpaktou is part of the shinigami. Yama and RJ are one in the same. Even after yama took the full hit of the explosion, aizen was still wary and cautious in approaching him. Then he later ran from a half dead yama. So yea, he was afraid.
Aizen is a cocky bastard. Any statements regarding himself are disregarded to me. Statements regarding other people, like yama being superior or urahara being smarter, that I would take into consideration
<hr noshade size="1">

So we are going to take the words of some lowly hollow over the words of aizen himself?! Ok, u keep on believing that

All Yama can do is shunpo to avoid them. He can't actually fight in melee combat without being at a extreme disadvantage. Also even if he shunpo's it wont matter. Urahara was capable of following a powered up Aizen. With Urahara being unseen on Yama's other side he could stab him or use kido on Yama after Yama shunpo's.

- it wasn't stated or implied that Aizen was testing Urahara at the beginning. There's more that points to Aizen not trying to test urahara at the beginning. Aizen tried to kill by speed blitzing him and stabbing him in the chest.

- Aizen never said he was scared of anybody, he's just extremely cautious. It was said Aizen wasn't afraid of anything though.
It makes sense Aizen ran. There's no good reason for him to tank a level 96 hado.

exacta
November 22, 2010, 04:46 PM
Doesn't that discredit your question?



You do realize Lord Aizen took Yama on and put a sword through his gut via speedblitz. Cap'n Aizen still had the smirk on his face when Yama grabbed his arm. Then Wonderweis came in ONLY when Yama was going to suicide. He couldnt win straight up so he decided to take Aizen down with him. At that point Yama had forfeited any opportunity to fight Aizen legitimately. I give Aizen that match evenhandedly, he performed a lot better and Yama was the first to cheat.

1. Aizen was the first to "cheat". He uses Kyokasuigetsu to deceive him. Plus Yama let him stab him on purpose. That was made quite clear. And Aizen smirked because of the whole WW plan, not because he thought he himself could take Yama. So no.

2."Lord" Aizen himself said Yama was stronger. Aizen didn't do anything really it was Wonderweiss. But still, Aizen said in a direct fight with Yama he would lose. Aizen would give that match to Yama. Even Aizen disagrees with you, and Kubo to for that matter, you know, the guy who writes this manga. You do remember that Wonderweiss was created specifically to COUNTER YAMA?

3. Yama didn't lose to Wonderweiss. He scared the shit out of Wonderweiss, and then with one attack shattered him like a vase......with his hands. Wonderweiss blew up afterwards. If Yama didn't stop the explosion, everyone would've died, including Aizen. Hell, his explosion didn't even kill Yama. That's not exactly a victory is it?

4.Your entitled to your own opinions, but you can't do these mental gymnastics that let you ignore canon facts.:notrust

5. Stop jerking off to Aizen. It's annoying.