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Waking_Dreamer
November 02, 2010, 07:53 PM
2 vs 2 Battle!

http://i204.photobucket.com/albums/bb57/Jonas64/Brawl-1.png
Scenario 1
Location: FKT
Starting Form: Espada - R1 Shinigami - Bankai/Vizard
Starting Distance: 100 meters

Restrictions: Ulquiorra R2, Ichinator
State of Mind: IC
Knowledge: Everyone knows of each others speed and general attacks
Harribel - Water, Hitsugaya - Ice
Ichigo - GT, Ulquiorra - Javelin/cero

Harribel and Hitsugaya know they can control and play off each others techniques.

Scenario 2
Same as Scenario 1 but
Location: HM above LN dome
Ulquiorra can go to R2

Scenario 3 (No-holds-bar Round)
Same as scenario 1 but
Ulquiorra starts in R2, Tenso Jurrin already activated (as in battle starts under stormy skies).

Broken_Wing
November 02, 2010, 09:00 PM
This could be a really epic team-battle!

Team Ichi-Ulq's trump card would be Ulquiorra R2 which arguably could be the strongest fighter on this field.

On the other hand Harribel and Hitsugaya have elemental synerygy, not to mention a team boost with Hitsugaya's Tenso Jurrin if he manages to activate it in time, which is very possible if he has Harribel to stall and they dont exactly know that it would power up their elemental techniques.

I'll come back when Ive thought about it some more...

Random101
November 02, 2010, 09:37 PM
Assuming Ichinator is banned, as well as his endgame bankai, this is an epic match of power vs. sheer synergy. Would be an wonderful site to behold.

That being said I probably lean on the dynamic duo, problem with the other team is Ulquiorra would be entirely pulling the weight of the offensive as HM arc Ichigo sucked, and neither have any decent capability to play off each other, nowhere NEAR the level Harribel and Hitsugaya can at least. Plus with the lance's sucky aim, this particular terrain giving Harribel a boost she didn't get in FKT, and Hitsugaya getting covered for any CO that catches him offguard with some damn good backup and the edge is slightly in their favor.

Primecut
November 03, 2010, 05:38 AM
Ulquiorra could dispatch Halibel in a couple seconds because he is bigger, faster, and stronger in his R2. In fact, Halibel's release was a huge disappointment and even Aizen said she was overrated. While on the otherhand we have Aizen trusting Ulquiorra alone to protect HM and Ulq said not even Aizen can comprehend his power in R2. I guess what I'm saying is Ulquiorra can solo the other team without Ichigo. Ulquiorra was going easy on Ichigo big time, telling him to give up, bla bla bla, when the fact is he could have just one shotted him due to the power gap. Can someone make an argument that a weak captain like Hitsuguya can fodderize Ichigo? I dont know about that...I'd say Ichigo would lose badly 1v2 but if he Ichigonators then Halibel and Hitsuguya get cleaved in half in seconds...they arent on that level. But Ichigonator + Ulquiora vs these two boring fighters? They'll get schooled by superior power. A little ice isnt stopping ceros and lanza de la rampago on the nuclear level.

Waking_Dreamer
November 03, 2010, 05:45 AM
Ulquiorra could dispatch Halibel in a couple seconds because he is bigger, faster, and stronger in his R2. In fact, Halibel's release was a huge disappointment and even Aizen said she was overrated. While on the otherhand we have Aizen trusting Ulquiorra alone to protect HM and Ulq said not even Aizen can comprehend his power in R2. I guess what I'm saying is Ulquiorra can solo the other team without Ichigo. I'd say Ichigo would lose badly 1v2 but if he Ichigonators then Halibel and Hitsuguya get cleaved in half in seconds...they arent on that level.

1. Aizen said ALL the Espada were a disappointment BUT it took TWO slashes to bring down Harribel, something veteran captains like Shinji and Shunsui couldnt even force Aizen to do. In other words she tanked a suprise slash by Aizen who actually wanted to KILL her and had enough fight in her to strike back at Aizen (however futile it may have been). She has shown at least the same amount of durability as Bankai Koma.

2. Ulquiorra has only ever fought in HM where he gets a natural boost. Harribel just like the Espada above her would destroy the dome of LN as well as she is ALSO restricted from releasing inside the dome.

3. Aizen left Ulquiorra back in HM becuase he was EXPECTING him to be FODDERISED by Ichigo. lol

4. Ichigonator is restricted.

Broken_Wing
November 03, 2010, 06:29 PM
Can someone make an argument that a weak captain like Hitsuguya can fodderize Ichigo?

People would say that Harribel R1 could soundly defeat Vizard Ichigo if she were to fight him instead of Ulquiorra. In fact anyone from the quatro Espada would probably fodderize Vizard Ichigo in one way or another if they were fighting in the same place he fought Ulquiorra. Ulquiorra R1 isnt anything special in terms of the Espada #3-1 R1.

As for Ulqiorra R2 - his feats are unquantifiable because he has only versed one fighter...a half-dead Ichigo. Its speculatory to say how much more powerful he is to R1 or any of the other Quatro Espada.

Also putting Hitsugaya in any battle thread where he isnt hindered by plot and his fear of loosing control of his powers - isnt someone Ichigo can just turn his back to or solo with one GT. lol Have him activate Tenso Jurrin as soon as the battle starts and not have him wait till more than half of his reiatsu is depeleted - hes going to hurt fighters who take him lightly.

Takahashi
November 03, 2010, 07:11 PM
1. Aizen said ALL the Espada were a disappointment BUT it took TWO slashes to bring down Harribel, something veteran captains like Shinji and Shunsui couldnt even force Aizen to do. In other words she tanked a suprise slash by Aizen who actually wanted to KILL her and had enough fight in her to strike back at Aizen (however futile it may have been). She has shown at least the same amount of durability as Bankai Koma.

2. Ulquiorra has only ever fought in HM where he gets a natural boost. Harribel just like the Espada above her would destroy the dome of LN as well as she is ALSO restricted from releasing inside the dome.

3. Aizen left Ulquiorra back in HM becuase he was EXPECTING him to be FODDERISED by Ichigo. lol

4. Ichigonator is restricted.

Damn! You beat me to the first point I was going to make! Then again, you were defending Koma with me in the other thread, so it's no surprise :amuse

Concerning Ulq, since everyone seems to think he's the god of the Espada, I think it's BS.

Ulq was already thrashing Ichigo so bad that he couldn't even react in time to dodge his attacks. Ulq was still far superior to him, then he transformed, to punch a hole in Ichigo, something he CLEARLY could have done before. So here we have two transformations with literally NO idea how big the power boost was. Anything and everything is speculation, and the fact that Ulq thought Aizen didn't know about his transformation is laughable. There's a reason people were getting irritated in the past with how much Aizen knew, it's cause he knows freakin' everything.

At the same time, for me to call his transformation insignificant would also be without proof, so I'll just go with the assumption that Ulq R2> Hallibel, as much as I don't want to.

I'd still give it to the HH team because their powers are perfect compliments to each other. Fights in Bleach are dictated by ability, and we've never seen a more promising combination than the one here. Plus, Hitsu is no slouch, and I'd definitely put him above Vaizard Ichigo.

If Ichigonator were in this fight, it would probably be an overwhelming win for the UI team, but as it is, gotta give it to Hitsu and Hali.

Primecut
November 03, 2010, 07:12 PM
People would say that Harribel R1 could soundly defeat Vizard Ichigo if she were to fight him instead of Ulquiorra. In fact anyone from the quatro Espada would probably fodderize Vizard Ichigo in one way or another if they were fighting in the same place he fought Ulquiorra. Ulquiorra R1 isnt anything special in terms of the Espada #3-1 R1.

I've seen no evidence from the manga that says Ulquiorra had a boost from being in Hueco Mundo. Even if there is, Ichigo would be getting a boost too since he draws on hollow powers from his mask. Point is either invalid or moot.


As for Ulqiorra R2 - his feats are unquantifiable because he has only versed one fighter...a half-dead Ichigo. Its speculatory to say how much more powerful he is to R1 or any of the other Quatro Espada.

Ulquiorra R2 was actually the last man standing. May not have been fair but he still KOed Ichigonator with a speed blitz and horn slice. He's definitely around Ichigonator levels but a little weaker.


Also putting Hitsugaya in any battle thread where he isnt hindered by plot and his fear of loosing control of his powers - isnt someone Ichigo can just turn his back to or solo with one GT. lol Have him activate Tenso Jurrin as soon as the battle starts and not have him wait till more than half of his reiatsu is depeleted - hes going to hurt fighters who take him lightly.

Hitsuguya is definitely on the bottom tier of the captains while Kenpachi and Byakuya are the big dogs of the Gotei 13. Ichigo has wins over both of these big dogs. Now that he's buffed up on hollow muscle he's better than ever and will put Hitsuguya to bed. Hitsuguya couldnt even handle Luppi one on one, Grimmjow one shotted Luppi, but Ichigo humiliated Grimmjow. Do the math, Ichigo is on a different level than ice kid.

Random101
November 03, 2010, 07:42 PM
I've seen no evidence from the manga that says Ulquiorra had a boost from being in Hueco Mundo. Even if there is, Ichigo would be getting a boost too since he draws on hollow powers from his mask. Point is either invalid or moot.
There is. Spiritual beings as well as evolved humans get a boost from being in a spiritual realm as opposed to the physical realm. Ishida in particularly noted this way back at the start of the HM arc. Hollows in particular appear to get the brunt of this boost in HM, if Chad's development is anything to go by. This means that FKT combatants did not get any sort of boost, as they were in the human world.


Hitsuguya is definitely on the bottom tier of the captains while Kenpachi and Byakuya are the big dogs of the Gotei 13. Ichigo has wins over both of these big dogs.
Aha, no. R1 Ulquiorra rapestomped Vizard Ichigo. Granted R2 actually went and killed him, but Ichigo couldn't even touch R1. Hitsugaya was on par with Harribel released, which we know is above R1 at least. Whatever your logic for this (I say Ichigo got a LOT weaker since mind, so Kenpachi preforming better against 5th than Ichigo against the 6th and Byakuya not getting blitzed by the fasted espada still makes sense), Hitsugaya's at least above that performance wise.

Broken_Wing
November 03, 2010, 07:46 PM
I've seen no evidence from the manga that says Ulquiorra had a boost from being in Hueco Mundo. Even if there is, Ichigo would be getting a boost too since he draws on hollow powers from his mask. Point is either invalid or moot.

It said as they arrived in HM that those with hollow abilities will have stronger powers by Ishida.

Anyway the point is Harribel would a get a boost as well. So that fact that you found her underwhelming in FKT doesnt mean she wont make you go, "OMG look at Black Cero" in HM.

Consider Harribel R1 reiatsu > Ulquiorra R1 reiatsu (databook canon).
Now Ichigo and Ishida were like OMFG what is the ocean of reiatsu from Uliquiorra R1, meaning Harribel R1 in HM would be even more overpowering for both of them...

Makes sense no...?


Ulquiorra R2 was actually the last man standing. May not have been fair but he still KOed Ichigonator with a speed blitz and horn slice. He's definitely around Ichigonator levels but a little weaker.

Problem here is Ichigonator is unqunatafiable as well. Is he stronger than Barry R1? Starrk R1? No one knows...?


Hitsuguya is definitely on the bottom tier of the captains while Kenpachi and Byakuya are the big dogs of the Gotei 13. Ichigo has wins over both of these big dogs. Now that he's buffed up on hollow muscle he's better than ever and will put Hitsuguya to bed. Hitsuguya couldnt even handle Luppi one on one, Grimmjow one shotted Luppi, but Ichigo humiliated Grimmjow. Do the math, Ichigo is on a different level than ice kid.

Still using ABC logic...?

Math fails in Bleach....

Primecut
November 03, 2010, 07:51 PM
There is. Spiritual beings as well as evolved humans get a boost from being in a spiritual realm as opposed to the physical realm. Ishida in particularly noted this way back at the start of the HM arc. Hollows in particular appear to get the brunt of this boost in HM, if Chad's development is anything to go by. This means that FKT combatants did not get any sort of boost, as they were in the human world.

All I'm asking for is a scan that proves Ulquiorra was boosted. The only boosts I saw was when he pulled out the R2 release because he's the only Espada with an arrancar Bankai. Chad =/= Ulquiorra, you know...



Aha, no. R1 Ulquiorra rapestomped Vizard Ichigo. Granted R2 actually went and killed him, but Ichigo couldn't even touch R1. Hitsugaya was on par with Harribel released, which we know is above R1 at least. Whatever your logic for this (I say Ichigo got a LOT weaker since mind, so Kenpachi preforming better against 5th than Ichigo against the 6th and Byakuya not getting blitzed by the fasted espada still makes sense), Hitsugaya's at least above that performance wise.

Byakuya had to use that cicada move to avoid death. Hitsuguya had to use his ice clone to avoid death. They needed to resort to there secret techniques to avoid death by speed blitz because the enemy was faster. Hitsuguya just got lucky that Halibel was standing there turning ice into water instead of pressing the attack. He's lucky his abilities countered hers. It doesnt change the fact that Luppi, a confirmed weak Espada, one shotted a Bankai hitsuguya. I'll give him credit for the Halibel performance even though he had elemental defenses but I gotta take away that credit for Luppi KOing him. Ichigo getting beat up by Ulq is not as bad as Hitsuguya getting one shotted by Luppi.

Random101
November 03, 2010, 08:16 PM
All I'm asking for is a scan that proves Ulquiorra was boosted. The only boosts I saw was when he pulled out the R2 release because he's the only Espada with an arrancar Bankai. Chad =/= Ulquiorra, you know...
All spiritual beings are boosted. There's no scan that says him in particular is boosted because that'd be colossally stupid thing to elaborate on when we were specifically told they all were due to the natural spiritual density of that world.


It doesnt change the fact that Luppi, a confirmed weak Espada, one shotted a Bankai hitsuguya.
The sheer wrongness in this statement astounds me. I don't know if it's the confirmed weak espada being pulled from your ass (weaker than Grimmjaw when heavily injured sure, but beyond that who the hell knows as it wasn't exactly elaborated on), or the fact that you're saying he was oneshotted when he came back completely undamaged as if he, I don't know, faked a dive to set up a huge oneshot or something, but damn.


Ichigo getting beat up by Ulq is not as bad as Hitsuguya getting one shotted by Luppi.
Not as bad in the sense that Ulquiorra is higher up in the lineup, sure, though that doesn't exempt Hitsugaya still preforming far better than him against a stronger person than even him in that specific state. Not as bad in the sense of the actual beatup though, and Hitsugaya completely owned Luppi after faking a dive, Ichigo was utterly defeated after one attack, all his power could do literally nothing to him in his first release. A 100% fully resolved Ichigo was destroyed completely with little more than a shrug from Ulquiorra.

Granted of course he got better, but that form that brought it about (BS in its own right) is apparently exempt. And frankly given its notion to simple stand around half the time and that it apparently can be negated with an imploded cero that didn't even hurt Orihime a few feet away and I don't particularly rate even that all that high either. Give it some brains or at least the notion to keep moving and then we'll talk.

Waking_Dreamer
November 03, 2010, 08:34 PM
All I'm asking for is a scan that proves Ulquiorra was boosted. The only boosts I saw was when he pulled out the R2 release because he's the only Espada with an arrancar Bankai. Chad =/= Ulquiorra, you know...

http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-chapter-245-page-16.html

"My point is, my powers arent the only ones that will hightened--the arrancar too will have a strength increase"

Random101
November 03, 2010, 08:49 PM
Wow, he says even mook hollows would be dangerous. That's a hell of a lot more of a boost than I thought it was. O.o

Waking_Dreamer
November 03, 2010, 08:58 PM
Wow, he says even mook hollows would be dangerous. That's a hell of a lot more of a boost than I thought it was. O.o

It may be the reason why there is seemingly a descrepency in the perfomances between Quatro Espada...

So the whole idea of, "Ulquiorra should have been ranked higher" that many once thought may not be needed.

The environment could have been a logical reason for the "impressive" preformance of #4, well besides the whole obligatory, "badguy who fights Ichigo always looks more badass" story-wise.

Broken_Wing
November 04, 2010, 04:30 AM
Scenario 1
Location: FKT
Starting Form: Espada - R1 Shinigami - Bankai/Vizard
Starting Distance: 100 meters

Restrictions: Ulquiorra R2, Ichinator
State of Mind: IC
Knowledge: Everyone knows of each others speed and general attacks
Harribel - Water, Hitsugaya - Ice
Ichigo - GT, Ulquiorra - Javelin/cero

Harribel and Hitsugaya know they can control and play off each others techniques.

This could soundly go to team H-H. Without R2 and the synergy of Hitsu and Harribel I think they have the power to overwhelm Ulquiorra and Ichigo. Ulquiorra R1 is not going to solo R1 Harribel, and Histugaya with TJ wont be a pushover for Ichigo.


Scenario 2
Same as Scenario 1 but
Location: HM above LN dome
Ulquiorra can go to R2

It depends how quickly team H-H can build up each others attack power or Hitsugaya activating TJ. If R2 can take down one of them before Hitsu turns on TJ, then it could go to Team Ichi-Ulqu.


Scenario 3 (No-holds-bar Round)
Same as scenario 1 but
Ulquiorra starts in R2, Tenso Jurrin already activated (as in battle starts under stormy skies).

This is a tough one and the most hectic of the battles. With everyone full power from the start every attack seems like a K.O.. Harribel could bust out bigass cascadas straight away not to mention Hitsu with HH or even instant 1000years Ice prison around both Ichigo and Ulquiorra. Also if Ulqu R2's lance detonates on any of their attacks consider a big boom right in front of everyone!

Its like putting them in a small room and giving them shotguns and grenandes. Pretty much the first one who aims and fires - wins. However since most of their attacks is large scale AOE, I wouldnt be suprised if all them gets hit in one way or another by anyone's attacks...lol.

This could be the quickest but most brutal of the matches and it depends on who hits who first...!?

Waking_Dreamer
November 04, 2010, 05:29 AM
This is what happens when I procrastinate with photoshop on my laptop:


http://i204.photobucket.com/albums/bb57/Jonas64/HMFightNight-1.jpg

I was meant to type up a report but ended up doing that instead...:s

Broken_Wing
November 04, 2010, 11:21 PM
^ Holy Sh*t. That looks good!

Im was tempted to ask you to make one with Ulquiorra R2 but then I realised technically it would have just been this:

http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-chapter-364-page-10.html

lol

Xsoteria
November 07, 2010, 01:36 PM
If I recall correctly, HM and SS don't have a difference between the density of spirit particles. Or was there something I forgot? If not, then I really don't know what's the difference in the fact that Ulquiorra fought in HM.

Anyway I voted for option 3. HH team take scenario 1. They are compatible in their abilities and the power difference isn't as big as it is in other scenarios. Otherwise, Ichigo and Ulqui take everything else. In other scenarios the gap in power is growing bigger and there really is no question in my mind that once Ulqui goes R2, girl and the kid lose.

Random101
November 07, 2010, 01:39 PM
FKT is in the human world, hence we know it's significantly weaker in spirit particles.

Xsoteria
November 07, 2010, 02:00 PM
FKT is being held in SS and is only in the real world thanks to the 4 pillars. Even if you argue that the fact that it's transfered into real world should changes this, the spirit particles are transfered as well, since buildings, air and basically everything is made of spirit enriched particles from SS.

Random101
November 07, 2010, 02:04 PM
Unlikely because FKT is an area of a single square mile surrounded by more city. As in if the town suddenly switched between regular and suddenly invisible to like 90% of everyone outside that range it's not easily ignorable. Keep in mind, Yamamoto specifically stopped Wonderwiess blast because he knew it would destroy more than FKT, so clearly the people around are still there.

Granted that they didn't explain how the thing worked in full makes it a little confusing (suddenly not being able to enter said square mile is likely not ignorable too, to say nothing of WTFEXPLOSIONS), but bare minimum the buildings themselves have to be normal. Meaning not made of magic particles. Human world density is the most likely conclusion to say the least, especially if they were remotely intelligent about it. Lord knows if a blast strong enough to destroy the barrier comes alon-OH WAIT. >>

Xsoteria
November 07, 2010, 02:12 PM
But it wasn't made of low spirit enriched particles... The fact that it was made in SS means it was made from the materials in SS and the fact that if you destroy the pillars the old FKT is returned means that FKT was transfered as a whole. Whether or not it's connected to the rest of the city is irrelevant, it's not like some random citizen will go by and say "oh shit look at this building with spirit enriched particles, wtf".

Random101
November 07, 2010, 02:17 PM
Keep in mind they make and store Gigai in SS (Yachiru gave the team theirs personally with help from Nemu apparently, and Urahara was creating the gigai that was going to be used for Rukia there too), so they have crap that's visible in SS. Granted they don't explain how or why, but LOLKUBO.

Similarly the only difference between spiritual particles and regular particles is that to regular humans spirit particles are invisible. So it won't be this builidng has spirit enriched particles, it'd be OH CRAP AN ENTIRE SQUARE MILE OF BUILDINGS IS FRIGGIN GONE.

Keep this especially in mind. If they simply wanted to replace the land with spiritually enriched land from SS without worrying about bloody invisible land, why make an exact replica of the same town? Why not just make it some normal flat land and do your business there. Most of the fighting was in the air anyway.

Xsoteria
November 07, 2010, 02:39 PM
Well the point of FKT was to try and trick Aizen into believing that he is fighting Gotei 13 in order to get access to KT (eventhough Aizen figured it out immediately, perhaps thanks due to the difference in particles, and he being him pompous self stayed anyway) and to save the lives of other citizens around KT. They raised the barrier for that reason and if Vizards had trouble getting through it, then I imagine no random guy from out in the city will get through and raise the alarm for an invisible part of the city. And as you said, they already have materials that are visible in the real world so I'm not convinced that Urahara spend time shipping huge amounts of concrete and other stuff through the dangai (imagine that lol), when visible material is readily available in SS (or perhaps that was irrelevant).

Either way, I must admit again that I'm having significant trouble following Kubologics, and I can bet that he didn't even consider the particle composition to be affecting the battle when he wrote the winter war.

Random101
November 07, 2010, 03:09 PM
Uh, just because there's a barrier doesn't mean people shouldn't be able to see into it. As in they don't have to walk in to notice that an entire half mile of land is now completely gone. They could see that entirely on their own.

That being said I agree it likely wasn't the exact same materials and the like and had to be made out of the visible stuff (unless they like magicked it up or something, I never was sure if crap like their elemental powers were visible or not when produced by themselves). Problem is, visible stuff should not be made out of spirit particles given what we know. Hence shouldn't give off the density necessary to replicate the effect of a space inhabited more or less entirely by spirit particles like HM.

Though granted you're probably right in that it didn't factor into Kubo's head at all. Lord knows a lot didn't that arc. I'm just saying given the current information presented that's the most likely conclusion with what we know.

Waking_Dreamer
November 07, 2010, 03:23 PM
If I recall correctly, HM and SS don't have a difference between the density of spirit particles. Or was there something I forgot? If not, then I really don't know what's the difference in the fact that Ulquiorra fought in HM.

http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-chapter-245-page-15.html

"Once I get used to this new environment, I should be able to fight here better than on earth or even soul society."

Xsoteria
November 07, 2010, 03:49 PM
Thanks for that page Dreamer, I guess it really is denser in HM than in SS. But still, I don't think this makes for a good argument. The difference seems to be smaller between HM and SS than RL and HM, and really a lot of unexplained things would have to be assumed, as well as that Kubo had this in mind when he did the fights. :s

ninjabot
November 07, 2010, 04:46 PM
1. Aizen said ALL the Espada were a disappointment BUT it took TWO slashes to bring down Harribel, something veteran captains like Shinji and Shunsui couldnt even force Aizen to do. In other words she tanked a suprise slash by Aizen who actually wanted to KILL her and had enough fight in her to strike back at Aizen (however futile it may have been). She has shown at least the same amount of durability as Bankai Koma.


Well, to put that in perspective, it was Aizen using a sealed zanpakuto, without even striking any vital organs when he cut her. Likewise, shinigami don't posess hierro, and both Shunsui and Shinji were already injured (Shinji once from being cut across the back by Aizen, Shunsui from being cut in the back by Stark, and shot down by Stark.) Komamura aswell had already had his arm slashed and a friggin' hole blown through his stomach. He had the endurance left of wet tissue paper, ofcourse he'd be taken down quickly by Aizen.

Hallibel was never struck significantly throughout fights. The most argument that could be made is that she was tired. Not to mention the how nonchalauntly she was twoshot.

As for the scenarios, the only one I can see team HH winning is the first, and I really can't see them winning that one without casualties, what with Hitsugaya's time limit and he and Halibel's lack of muscle. Yammi shook off ice from Hitsugaya like it was nothing. Unreleased Yammi that is. Unless ofcourse that was the anime when that happened.

daman246
November 07, 2010, 04:54 PM
even if the lanza were not to hit hitsu or hali directly the blast range is ridiuclous huge is like a fkc nuke no matter what they do ulruquira can just shot out 3-5 lanza and eveyrone is blasted into oblivion ice wont stop cero/oscura/lanza
what were to happpen if ichiogo and ulruquira both shoot dark blast at the same time lol only u can imagine cero oscura fused with GT lol

Random101
November 07, 2010, 05:00 PM
The GT would likely be just dispersed by the Cero itself, and Harribel just fires one of her own and it'll probably compensate enough for no WTFPWNage. Ichigo's GT at that point is so laughably weak that it'd probably have trouble even getting through Hitsugaya's Ice, and needless to say Harribel's not going to be even remotely dented by it if she's released.

That said the lance might indeed be bad news if he spams it to get them caught in the blast radius, though it's also supremely bad news for Ichigo and somewhat for Ulquiorra himself if they get caught in the blast.

Course the blast radius for the lance, while nothing to sneeze at, isn't all that impressive, it's how goddamn high it goes that's almost stupidly mystifying.

Waking_Dreamer
November 07, 2010, 05:58 PM
Not to mention the how nonchalauntly she was twoshot.

Yammi shook off ice from Hitsugaya like it was nothing. Unreleased Yammi that is. Unless ofcourse that was the anime when that happened.

Well Yammi has been told to have the second strongest hierro after Nnoitra, so its not that much of a downplay of Hitsugaya's shikai ice.

Also has Aizen really shown much more than a nonchalant expression when he slashes anyone? When he slashed Shinji and Shunsui he slashed them along side two other captain class fighters near instantly.

Its less likely that he would have put more effort in each one of those slashes against the captains compared to Harribel perhaps not even as much as he did against her. Actually he verbally stated how he was annoyed he needed to put more effort than expected to drop Harribel even though she was all that he was concerned with.

Xsoteria
November 08, 2010, 07:04 AM
Well Yammi has been told to have the second strongest hierro after Nnoitra, so its not that much of a downplay of Hitsugaya's shikai ice.

Yammy's hierro was tough in his released state. Ichigo lopped off that arm pretty effortlessly, and he was in pretty bad shape back then. He had far more trouble with GJ's hierro, not to mention Ulquiorra. At least, that's my genuine impression. Though released Yammy seems to be something else.

Gran Maestro
November 08, 2010, 07:27 AM
Xsoteria may be right, perhaps Yammy's hierro is the 2nd strongest in his released state, even Loly cut his hand with ease in his sealed form:

http://mangable.com/bleach/chapter-343/06/

I would even argue that his hierro got tougher in his final stage, he didn't seem to be that strong before the final transformation.

Random101
November 08, 2010, 10:26 AM
The explanation for Ichigo was that apparently Yammi is a moron who doesn't keep it up all the time. I'd assume Loly is something similar. >>

Zatono
November 08, 2010, 10:36 AM
Xsoteria may be right, perhaps Yammy's hierro is the 2nd strongest in his released state, even Loly cut his hand with ease in his sealed form:

Maybe it's just that the palm of his hand is a little weak.

Don't forget what happened just a few pages later: http://mangable.com/bleach/chapter-343/17/

Xsoteria
November 08, 2010, 12:41 PM
Maybe it's just that the palm of his hand is a little weak.

Don't forget what happened just a few pages later: http://mangable.com/bleach/chapter-343/17/

The fact that Ishida didn't pierce him doesn't weigh all that much... He is an espada level arrancar. But in general, his hierro in base form hasn't been too impressive. And he was weaker when he fought Hitsu then he was vs Menoly or Ishida.

ninjabot
November 08, 2010, 04:57 PM
Well Yammi has been told to have the second strongest hierro after Nnoitra, so its not that much of a downplay of Hitsugaya's shikai ice.


I think it is. Zommari claims to have the fastest Sonido, yet Starrk dwarfed his movement speed by rushing from the top of Las Noches, to where Orihime was, grabbed her, and hopped right back into Aizen's throne room in what was practically an instant. He dwarfed Zommari's speed and all we had to go on was Zommari's claim. Same with the claim of Yammi having the second strongest hierro: you can't trust claims. Only feats. Then there's the "Ichigo took his arm effortlessly" thing that makes his hierro seem for lack of a better word... pathetic. And I don't ever think it was canonically proven that hierro needs to be activated. Could be wrong.


Also has Aizen really shown much more than a nonchalant expression when he slashes anyone? When he slashed Shinji and Shunsui he slashed them along side two other captain class fighters near instantly.


No, he hasn't. But still, you're comparing him cutting down an uninjured espada to everyone else he cut down who had already endured injuries and weren't at their strongest. If they were cut down more easily, it's because they had handicaps. Shunsui from being shot and slashed, Shinji from being slashed in the back, Komamura from being slashed and having a Grand Canyon sized hole in his chest, Hitsugaya from being exhausted from using Bankai too long, and Soi Fon from missing an arm and forcing herself to use her bankai too much.


Its less likely that he would have put more effort in each one of those slashes against the captains compared to Harribel perhaps not even as much as he did against her.


Ofcourse it's less likely. Why would he try harder to cut down enemies that are already damaged goods? I'm not saying he tried harder to finish them, I'm saying that if they were fresh he would've had to try harder, and that they endured more damage than Halibel throughout the entire battle because they were struck multiple times where as Halibel wasn't even nicked once. She was frozen solid, but didn't seem the slightest bit fatigued from it.



Actually he verbally stated how he was annoyed he needed to put more effort than expected to drop Harribel even though she was all that he was concerned with.

Again, she wasn't as softened up as everyone else he oneshotted.

Random101
November 08, 2010, 06:01 PM
He dwarfed Zommari's speed and all we had to go on was Zommari's claim. Same with the claim of Yammi having the second strongest hierro: you can't trust claims.
While I could see claims being questionable, Databooks are not when the specific facts are clearly stated as such (Zomari's funnily enough is worded ambiguously, however not in this heirro case). In this case the source is canon. Nnoitra is directly stated in it to have the strongest Hierro in the databook, while Yammi is stated to have the second strongest. Only apparently he's a moron who underestimates people and lets them get through or some nonsense like that to explain why people were carving him like butter, also stated directly by the databook in direct reference to the Ichigo scene. >>

Takahashi
November 08, 2010, 06:11 PM
While I could see claims being questionable, Databooks are not when the specific facts are clearly stated as such (Zomari's funnily enough is worded ambiguously, however not in this heirro case). In this case the source is canon. Nnoitra is directly stated in it to have the strongest Hierro in the databook, while Yammi is stated to have the second strongest. Only apparently he's a moron who underestimates people and lets them get through or some nonsense like that to explain why people were carving him like butter, also stated directly by the databook in direct reference to the Ichigo scene. >>

Yeah, because Hierro takes a conscious effort to activate.

ninjabot
November 08, 2010, 06:22 PM
Then I stand corrected. Even still, I'm not sure how the density of someone's hierro determines how quickly they freeze. How much damage they can endure, sure. But keeping their temerature above freezing levels? If it's a matter of overpowering the reiatsu that's trying to freeze you, that'd be a matter of actively "powering up", which would have nothing to do with Hierro...unless it IS activated...

I'm thinking about it too much. There's absolutley no point in applying logic to Kubo's mess of a manga so...I'll drop it.

Though about that LDR: it can still be used effectively as a melee weapon, or suicide bomber attack. I sincerely doubt Halibel or Hitsugaya have the strength to grab the spearhead of the LDR the way GM Ichigo did. And if it really is lightning oriented, then tossing it at Halibel's water manipulating attacks could have devistating effects.

Eternal_Breath
November 08, 2010, 06:53 PM
I'll start by stating a few things:
Ulquiorra and Harribel were given their ranks by Aizen the all knowing (ie. before his brain was turned to mush in the Decide arc), I seriously doubt that Aizen was completely unaware of Ulquiorra's R2 when he was giving out the numbers. Therefore Harribel > Ulquiorra makes more sense then Ulquiorra > Harribel/Barragan/Starrk that a lot of members seem to believe Ichigo got his ass handed to him by Ulquiora, no ifs or buts about it Therefore Harribel > Ulquiorra > Ichigo makes sense As much as I hate to compliement Hitsuguya, his ice attacks in Bankai are effective most of the time Harribel and Hitsuguya both use a water based element, amplifying each others powers significantly Ulquiorra and Ichigo don't have a similar advantage, Ichigo is a close/mid range fighter whereas Ulquiorra's more powerful attacks specialise in mid/long range, meaning they might even hinder each others fighting styles


For the listed reasons I think that the Harri/Hitsu team would win at most of (if not all of) the scenarios given.

Waking_Dreamer
November 08, 2010, 06:57 PM
Then I stand corrected. Even still, I'm not sure how the density of someone's hierro determines how quickly they freeze. How much damage they can endure, sure. But keeping their temerature above freezing levels?

Well this one was sort of answered when Rukia tried to freeze Grimmjow. He said something along the lines of freezing the top layer of skin isnt going to hold or damage an Espada to any extent.

As for Harribel vs Aizen, Im still considereing that a durability/endurance feat. It doesnt make her seem less fragile than the veteran Captain-class, at worst its shown her to be on par.

Random101
November 08, 2010, 07:07 PM
I have heavy doubts the lance is lightning based, mostly because, well look at it, it looks like pure energy. Lightning sure as hell doesn't explode like that, and it's supposed to be sparky you know?

Course given this is Kubo and most of his lightning attacks do look like energy attacks (LOLHADO88) eh... Only time I can actually recall a lightning attack looking like lightning was Aizen's Hado 63, and even then most of that was basically a huge shockwave.

He does damn fine water and ice though.

ninjabot
November 10, 2010, 04:04 PM
Byakurai is also supposedly lightning based on the title. In the anime they made it have arching sparks of electricity to make it seem more lightning-like (when shot through Ichigo), but not in the manga though.

And it's not that hard to mistake water or ice, lol. Lightning or no, if LDR houses the same amount of power we've seen from it's explosion, in a condenced form, and he goes close range with it, I don't see Hitsu or Hali blocking believably based on the strength both have shown.

Random101
November 10, 2010, 04:12 PM
It's hard to mistake water or ice yes, but convincing water and Ice is also stunningly difficult to draw. Hence why I must give props where they are due, his water and ice effects are very slick, even the conversion in their fight looked convincing.

Lightning by extension is much easier to draw, hence why I'm floored as to why things that are supposed to be lightning tend to look more like lasers or energy blasts. I have to watch the anime to even be sure if they are lightning, which while not the best of sources helps immensely. Though in the lances case unlike the other two lightning attacks it still looks like energy.

Waking_Dreamer
November 10, 2010, 04:28 PM
Ive never considered it lightning based is just sttems like energy somewhat like Starrk's swords.

I mean Soifon's bankai is something like "lightning whip" or there abouts...ah yeah...it really looks like lightning lol. Kubo could just like reusing the word lightning in his titles...

Raizen
November 19, 2010, 02:27 PM
2 vs 2 Battle!

http://i204.photobucket.com/albums/bb57/Jonas64/Brawl-1.png
Scenario 1
Location: FKT
Starting Form: Espada - R1 Shinigami - Bankai/Vizard
Starting Distance: 100 meters

Restrictions: Ulquiorra R2, Ichinator
State of Mind: IC
Knowledge: Everyone knows of each others speed and general attacks
Harribel - Water, Hitsugaya - Ice
Ichigo - GT, Ulquiorra - Javelin/cero

Harribel and Hitsugaya know they can control and play off each others techniques.

Scenario 2
Same as Scenario 1 but
Location: HM above LN dome
Ulquiorra can go to R2

Scenario 3 (No-holds-bar Round)
Same as scenario 1 but
Ulquiorra starts in R2, Tenso Jurrin already activated (as in battle starts under stormy skies).
I personally see Halibel and Hitsu win most if not all of the scenario. The combo of water and ice is completely overpowered. With all the moisture each of their attacks create, they would each be able to use their strongest attacks with no restriction. So halibel can use water master water technique she was waiting for. Then once that is done, hitsu can use the water and turn it to ice and use his attack. Then halibel can rinse and repeat LOL.

ulqui to me is one of the most overestimated characters in the series while hitsu is completely underestimated. Ulqui only seemed impressive b/c he was against mr power fluctuate ichigo. We all know ichigo was no where near as impressive in HM as he was in SS. That has been stated multiple times. Going to R2 didn't change anything. He was already whooping ichigo's ass in R1. Hence, that is why i don't see ichigo beating either halibel or hitsu in any way shape or form.

Furthermore, in his battle against halibel, he didn't go full power and instead waited for his petals to lessen b/c if he used full power, it might hurt his teammates. In this battle, he doesn't have to worry as much about that. Since halibel can somewhat protect herself to some degree against the ice. Even if she dies it doesn't matter really. Hitsu's zanpaktou is amazing. The only thing restricting his powers is the vast area his bankai affect. Thus he always has to hold back when he is around his allies.

Ulqui's lanza and ichigo's GT won't get a hit on hitsu or halibel. Hitsu and halibel's attack may not hit their enemies from afar either, but it lets them set up the battlefield for their ultimate techniques

ninjabot
November 23, 2010, 04:56 AM
The thing I can't quite get past about all the Hitsugaya and Halibel team-up fights is what it's supposed to accomplish outside of letting them reach their strongest attacks faster. Neither character becomes physically stronger or faster or smarter, so anyone that outclasses either of them to begin with, outclasses them just the same.

As for Halibel's strongest attack, we don't even know what that is, so it's just speculation that it'll be something she can use effectively against someone of Ulquiorra or Ichigo's speed level. Hitsugaya barely avoided the attacks he dodged from her, and Ichigo and Ulquiorra's speed far exceeds his so whatever you guys are imagining she can do, it better be fast and large scale.


Ulqui's lanza and ichigo's GT won't get a hit on hitsu or halibel. Hitsu and halibel's attack may not hit their enemies from afar either, but it lets them set up the battlefield for their ultimate techniques


Won't hit Hitsu or Halibel? Care to explain why? Hitsugaya has access to his ice version of Cicada, but Halibel certainly hasn't shown us any impressive speed (compared to the faster characters atleast). You could argue that Hitsugaya's ice could act as a shield, but Hitsugaya's bankai is on a time limit. He can't keep that up forever. Not to mention I'm finding it hard to believe Ulq or Ichigo don't just strongarm through his ice.

Waking_Dreamer
November 23, 2010, 07:22 AM
The thing I can't quite get past about all the Hitsugaya and Halibel team-up fights is what it's supposed to accomplish outside of letting them reach their strongest attacks faster. Neither character becomes physically stronger or faster or smarter, so anyone that outclasses either of them to begin with, outclasses them just the same.


Why would they engage in a physical battle though? Their techniques allow them the option to spam their techniques at mid or far range no problem.

Their attacks become stronger or larger, their prep-time is faster or maybe even instantaneous. The use of their techniques can be combined to defend each other or combined to once again make their attacks more powerful/larger scale.

Consider Sennen Hyoro as a rotating defense for Harribel while she fires Sharktooth Droplets from the centre, of even converting all the ice that into a Cascada for offense....

Random101
November 23, 2010, 12:47 PM
Hitsugaya barely avoided the attacks he dodged from her, and Ichigo and Ulquiorra's speed far exceeds his so whatever you guys are imagining she can do, it better be fast and large scale.
Uh, while I agree Ulquiorra's fast, HM Ichigo is SLOOOOOOOW. Like Orihime levels hilariously enough, even at full power and resolve. He's lost pretty much any semblance of impressive speed he had, which completely baffles even the best of us.


Won't hit Hitsu or Halibel? Care to explain why? Hitsugaya has access to his ice version of Cicada, but Halibel certainly hasn't shown us any impressive speed (compared to the faster characters atleast).
Lanza can't hit a stationary target, and Ichigo's Getsuuga won't reach Harribel at all, similar to R1 Ulquiorra given he did it with pure reiatsu frankly, which she's > that form in, and frankly it's piercing power even with mask isn't all that great (LOL YAMMI) so yeah. >>

Frankly the only thing I see the team overpowering the Dynamic duo with is Lanza and Ulquorra's speed, everything else the Dynamic duo can either match, equal with their own (LOL CO), or outstrip completely. And speed frankly isn't everything, and the Lanza in all honesty sucks given it can't hit a target just standing there in mid range, so a moving target's out of the question. >>

There are WAYS they could win granted, but it requires them to be way more intelligent than they are about it, some luck, and Ichigo'd be superfluous anyway.

ninjabot
November 23, 2010, 02:28 PM
Why would they engage in a physical battle though? Their techniques allow them the option to spam their techniques at mid or far range no problem.


Inability to stay out of range, obviously. Even against Halibel Hitsugaya was lulled into close range everytime he attempted a counterattack. One resulting in part of his tail being clipped off. Pulling that kind of strategy against characters that exceed her speed won't let him get away with as many close calls as he did with her.



Their attacks become stronger or larger, their prep-time is faster or maybe even instantaneous. The use of their techniques can be combined to defend each other or combined to once again make their attacks more powerful/larger scale.


They don't become significanlty more powerful, just larger scale. Hitsugaya's ice doesn't become harder, it just becomes more plentiful. Halibel's water doesn't become hotter, just more plentiful. I agree about using attacks faster, but if they're choreographing their attacks the way you're saying, I don't see them getting far.



Consider Sennen Hyoro as a rotating defense for Harribel while she fires Sharktooth Droplets from the centre, of even converting all the ice that into a Cascada for offense....


Sennen Hyoro leaves the person within stationary for the most part. The last thing Hitsugaya or Halibel want to do is sit still against enemies on Ulquiorra or Ichigo's level. Hell, Ulq doesn't have to connect with LDR thanks to Hitsu giving him a target that huge. Hitting one of those floating ice pillars would make the attack explode, frying Halibel within.

If she starts melting it into water, she's left with no defense at all, and the LDR still explodes at close range. Not to mention if someone of Hitsugaya's speed level can dodge those droplets, it's cake for Ulq or Ichigo.



Uh, while I agree Ulquiorra's fast, HM Ichigo is SLOOOOOOOW. Like Orihime levels hilariously enough, even at full power and resolve. He's lost pretty much any semblance of impressive speed he had, which completely baffles even the best of us.


Compared to whom? You've got to remember the characters he fought were all outrageously fast. Far faster than anyone Hitsugaya or Halibel has fought. Thus, his speed feats needed to be equal (not above) them to show their speed. Rest assured Hitsugaya wouldn't think Ichigo was slow.



Lanza can't hit a stationary target, and Ichigo's Getsuuga won't reach Harribel at all, similar to R1 Ulquiorra given he did it with pure reiatsu frankly, which she's > that form in, and frankly it's piercing power even with mask isn't all that great (LOL YAMMI) so yeah. >>


Yes he can. He doesn't have to throw it, nor hit him directly on his body. Simply dropping it from above him at a close range takes care of the aim, and the blast radius makes sure a narrow escape doesn't take place. I think you guys are trying a little to hard to downplay such a devistating attack. And that was a resolveless Ichigo that couldn't harm Yammi significantly. And if we're still going with the "Yammi has the second strongest Hierro" information, that means that Ichigo's GT will definately harm Halibel.

And as for Halibel being stronger than Ulquiorra... she sure as hell hasn't shown it from what we've seen.
She's the most unimpressive of the Espada, IMO. If you can't outpace, overpower, or injure Hitsugaya of all people, you're not impressive, quite simply. Then again, the fact that Hitsugaya had a counter for all her attacks could explain why she had such a lackluster showing, but either way... his ice had nothing to do with her her unimpressive speed/strength feats. It's not at all wrong to thing that she and Hitsugaya are around the same speed. And if that's the case, they're both getting blitzed something fierce.



Frankly the only thing I see the team overpowering the Dynamic duo with is Lanza and Ulquorra's speed, everything else the Dynamic duo can either match, equal with their own (LOL CO), or outstrip completely. And speed frankly isn't everything, and the Lanza in all honesty sucks given it can't hit a target just standing there in mid range, so a moving target's out of the question. >>


I honestly still don't get it. We've never seen Hitsugaya move at a speed comperable to Ichigo or Ulquiorra, yet he can match them? We've never seen him attempt to block/cancel out building busting attacks (only narrowly avoiding them), but he can match Cero Oscuras or KGT? With ice no less? I mean, sure he stopped a few of Halibel's attacks, but they were water. He had a handicap. He won't be freezing, nor blocking LDR, CO, nor KGT, depending on how much "oomph" Ichigo puts into it.



There are WAYS they could win granted, but it requires them to be way more intelligent than they are about it, some luck, and Ichigo'd be superfluous anyway.

That's a given, I just can't make myself believe HH can muster up enough of an advantage with just "more water".

Random101
November 23, 2010, 02:55 PM
Compared to whom?
Orihime, hilariously enough. He couldn't move fast enough to block something Orihime perceived and blocked for him.

And she's so far below captain level that, rest assured, Hitsugaya wouldn't break a sweat keeping up.


And that was a resolveless Ichigo that couldn't harm Yammi significantly.
And a resolveful Ichigo's (Bankai admittedly) Getsuuga couldn't harm Gin significantly, and shinigami don't have hierro. The piercing power of the move frankly seems barely above his slashes at times (In fact his slashes tend to do more damage at key points). I have severe doubts of it being able to do much more than distract while one is blocking.


Yes he can. He doesn't have to throw it, nor hit him directly on his body. Simply dropping it from above him at a close range takes care of the aim, and the blast radius makes sure a narrow escape doesn't take place.
Blowing himself and Ichigo up in the process. Not the wisest of moves. Frankly that trick only works once, literally the first time he lets it explode as all other times they know what's coming and can properly react, and how viable it is depends on a lot of factors while holding an equal chance of screwing himself over. Hence I'm not particularly impressed with it.

Well save the height of the explosion. That's staggeringly high in all honesty.


And as for Halibel being stronger than Ulquiorra... she sure as hell hasn't shown it from what we've seen. She's the most unimpressive of the Espada, IMO.
By being above him, she's above Ulquiorra in reiatsu, which was my point, we can argue whose stronger all day (Though anyone who thinks he can beat her with any sort of ease in first res is high frankly, he has NOTHING of actual potency in is first resserection stage that the other espada don't already have themselves) but defense wise the two would be equal for a Getsuuga, which didn't do crap to the form we know has less reiatsu.

And frankly Harribel's the most diverse of the espada, she has the most versatile skillset and the greatest number of moves of all of them, and is the only one with a completely unique attack set outside of Ress, save obviously #9 who cheated. You want to talk of least impressive, Ulquiorra frankly has quite literally NO unique moves in first ress, and his only unique move in the second blows chunks. His only redeeming factor is regen, which doesn't work on the one thing you'd actually WANT it to work on, and #5 has it too, as well as being a goddamn close ranged monster.

Though admittedly #5 also has literally no unique moves to call his own, but destroying Kenpachi in CQC is perhaps one of the most terrifying feats in the series save Starrk's sheer instantaneous and overwhelming offensive and Barragon's Respiera. Too bad it's worth squat for ranged combatants, which is virtually everyone else.


We've never seen Hitsugaya move at a speed comperable to Ichigo or Ulquiorra, yet he can match them?
Any captain can move faster than Orihime, ergo he's >>>> Ichigo (though for the sake of not making Ichigo completely worthless, I'm at least granting them comparable. >>). Also keep up != moving the same speed, Hitsugaya has among the best currently known reaction feats in the series for CQC, save maybe Shinji's. And even that's a case of arguing which would be harder to dodge.


building busting attacks
Cascada was outright blocked, and literally ANY attack in this series busts buildings, especially for captain levels. Hitsugaya himself blew up a room the size of a building just by drawing his sealed sword while really, REALLY pissed off. If that's impressive to anyone than they clearly aren't up to snuff on how easily collateral damage happens in this series. You need a better description. Collateral damage is literally worthless as a feat.

He further blocked and tanked a direct hit from Harribel's 'Getsuuga' so frankly Ichigo's ain't doing squat if it hits the wings. CO will likely break through, but that's what Harribel's for, she can use that move too, and chargeup means time to know when to charge up her own. The Lanza would probably break through too, but it ain't hitting him without Ulquiorra screwing himself over too, and if they survive that, he's not remotely getting a second shot.

Sadly the problem with Lanza is we didn't see it hit anything so we don't know what kind of damage it does to a target. >>

ninjabot
November 23, 2010, 05:05 PM
Orihime, hilariously enough. He couldn't move fast enough to block something Orihime perceived and blocked for him.

And she's so far below captain level that, rest assured, Hitsugaya wouldn't break a sweat keeping up.


Thats just more horrible writing on Kubo's behalf. Like when Aizen supposedly moved fast enough to grab Momo, place her where he was standing, and make her look like himself via KS so fast that no one noticed. Though a link would help.



And a resolveful Ichigo's (Bankai admittedly) Getsuuga couldn't harm Gin significantly, and shinigami don't have hierro. The piercing power of the move frankly seems barely above his slashes at times (In fact his slashes tend to do more damage at key points). I have severe doubts of it being able to do much more than distract while one is blocking.


Ichigo was still broken-spirited when fighting Gin. Even throughout the whole time he watched Urahara fighting Aizen he looked like a scared child.

http://www.mangafox.com/manga/bleach/v45/c404/13.html
http://www.mangafox.com/manga/bleach/v45/c404/14.html

And far before even fighting Gin, he was the same scared child while trying to fight Aizen. No, there was no resolve throughout his bout with Gin.



Blowing himself and Ichigo up in the process. Not the wisest of moves. Frankly that trick only works once, literally the first time he lets it explode as all other times they know what's coming and can properly react, and how viable it is depends on a lot of factors while holding an equal chance of screwing himself over. Hence I'm not particularly impressed with it.

Well save the height of the explosion. That's staggeringly high in all honesty.

If Ichigo was nearby, sure. Likewise, Ulquiorra blowing himself to smithereens is a non issue thanks to his regenerative abilities. And it's still a viable close range attack. If by some outrageous form of divine intervention HH survive the LDR and become more cautious, nothing's stopping Ulq from taking the fight to them with the LDR in hand, forcing them to have to contend with it whether they know what it's capable of or not. Outrunning a tossed LDR is likely. Outrunning Ulqiorra, is most definitely NOT.



By being above him, she's above Ulquiorra in reiatsu, which was my point, we can argue whose stronger all day (Though anyone who thinks he can beat her with any sort of ease in first res is high frankly, he has NOTHING of actual potency in is first resserection stage that the other espada don't already have themselves) but defense wise the two would be equal for a Getsuuga, which didn't do crap to the form we know has less reiatsu.


Halibel's level above him doesn't have to mean she's stronger, or even faster. Just that her killing potential is superior. It could very well be her versatility that made her higher rank than he, as Zommari doesn't have a stronger hierro than Yammi, but managed to be ranked above him significantly likely based on the haxness of his Amore/greater speed. And if Kubo wants his rankings to make any kind of sense whatsoever, he HAS to take this stance, or else the ranks mean nothing, as one character who has shown greater destructive power/speed being ranked lower than another is quite frankly, retarded.



And frankly Harribel's the most diverse of the espada, she has the most versatile skillset and the greatest number of moves of all of them, and is the only one with a completely unique attack set outside of Ress, save obviously #9 who cheated. You want to talk of least impressive, Ulquiorra frankly has quite literally NO unique moves in first ress, and his only unique move in the second blows chunks. His only redeeming factor is regen, which doesn't work on the one thing you'd actually WANT it to work on, and #5 has it too, as well as being a goddamn close ranged monster.


Which means nothing when introduced to an enemy with far greater power. Byakuya is the most versatile of the Gotei 13, but that only goes so far. It's not just the fact that he can attack you from any angle, and defend at the same time, that makes him uber. It's the fact that he's elite in every form of combat. He's fast. His power is decent. He can attack effectively in close and long range. He is good at kidou. He's analytical.

Halibel however is splish-splash... and that's it. She isn't strong enough to make her versatile power count, that's what makes her unimpressive. She's barely fast enough to keep Hitsugaya on his toes, and wasn't doing anything as destructive as what Ichigo or Ulqiorra has shown us. I don't care how unique or original Ulqiorra's powers are/aren't. They WORK. Which is far more than anyone can say about Halibel's.


Cascada was outright blocked, and literally ANY attack in this series busts buildings, especially for captain levels. Hitsugaya himself blew up a room the size of a building just by drawing his sealed sword while really, REALLY pissed off. If that's impressive to anyone than they clearly aren't up to snuff on how easily collateral damage happens in this series. You need a better description. Collateral damage is literally worthless as a feat.

Frozen. Cascada was frozen at the point it connected, that's why Hitsugaya was pushed downward. The water continued pushing his ice shield that was made of part of the Cascada. He cannot do the same to an attack that isn't a mass of water. Atleast not an energy attack.

As for collateral damage, it works perfectly fine as a measuring stick. Infact, it's the blast radius from LDR that has everyone acknowledge it's effectiveness. Likewise, the reason I brought collateral damage into the equation is because all of Hitsugaya's attacks are just that: collateral damage. He's making solid constructs. Ichigo and Ulq can plow through buildings with their weapons alone, let alone their special attacks. They can even endure being knocked through said buildings and shrug it off. Thus, it's completely likely they'd just turn anything Hitsugaya's throwing at them into cocktail ice for a thousand.

The only argument against this you could bring up is that he could freeze them if he could overpower their reiatsu with his own. I sincerely doubt you're gonna take that stance though.



He further blocked and tanked a direct hit from Harribel's 'Getsuuga' so frankly Ichigo's ain't doing squat if it hits the wings. CO will likely break through, but that's what Harribel's for, she can use that move too, and chargeup means time to know when to charge up her own. The Lanza would probably break through too, but it ain't hitting him without Ulquiorra screwing himself over too, and if they survive that, he's not remotely getting a second shot.


Are you talking about this?http://www.mangafox.com/manga/bleach/v42/c358/16.html

"That was a weak attack." Damn. Even Hitsugaya thinks so. Says wonders about her power (though I'll concede she was holding back waiting for more water). Yeah, he's not tanking any GT's, let alone Cero Oscuras or LDR. Unless you meant this:http://www.mangafox.com/manga/bleach/v41/c355/6.html

Which we don't see. We just see him on the ground bleeding from his forehead later. A link would help.

Or not. This is seeming like one of those agree to disagree things.

Random101
November 23, 2010, 05:50 PM
Thats just more horrible writing on Kubo's behalf. Like when Aizen supposedly moved fast enough to grab Momo, place her where he was standing, and make her look like himself via KS so fast that no one noticed. Though a link would help.
Oh trust me, that's not my only example I can pull. The skull dudes from the execution squad that Rukia was fighting and managed to slay entirely bum rushed him before he could do crap, also in bankai, Gin was more or less keeping up with him in all regards without his bankai ability in CQC, this despite Hitsugaya actually edging ahead of Gin speed wise (Though granted at the same time he was also figuring out his bankai's true power, but EVEN THEN he should have just took the dudes head off if he was still that fast), and his general all around LACK of any sort of impressive speed after the Byakuya fight. The Orihime case is only the most blatant one I like to pull, as it was the official point I took away his speed cred.


Ichigo was still broken-spirited when fighting Gin. Even throughout the whole time he watched Urahara fighting Aizen he looked like a scared child.
Not at the start of the fight. That was right after Isshin gave him a pep talk. He didn't get broken Spirited till Aizen started pulling his shenanigans, which was LONG after that scene in particular.


Frozen. Cascada was frozen at the point it connected, that's why Hitsugaya was pushed downward.
Calling BS on this. We didn't see jack of what he did, and pushed down or not, it was still blocked. While it would be a valid excuse, he didn't freeze all of it as we still saw the water connect and become incapable of breaking through. Hence point remains, particularly since we're talking about Tenso Jurrin combat, so it's pretty much same deal.

That the anime also goes with him creating the barrier prior to the hit connecting as opposed to freezing any of her water doesn't help the case, though admittedly that's hardly evidence. >>


As for collateral damage, it works perfectly fine as a measuring stick. Infact, it's the blast radius from LDR that has everyone acknowledge it's effectiveness. Likewise, the reason I brought collateral damage into the equation is because all of Hitsugaya's attacks are just that: collateral damage. He's making solid constructs. Ichigo and Ulq can plow through buildings with their weapons alone, let alone their special attacks. They can even endure being knocked through said buildings and shrug it off. Thus, it's completely likely they'd just turn anything Hitsugaya's throwing at them into cocktail ice for a thousand.
Measuring stick for how big a blow is sure, we can tell if booms are large or not thanks to that. Effectiveness is another thing entirely. Everyone can casually destroy buildings with sword swings, even a sealed Hitsugaya, labeling something a building buster comments on an all too common size of virtually all attacks of high level combat, NOT a comment about power. You want impressive power, they have to do good damage to something reiatsu resistant, and even things made out of those aren't particularly impressive.

Hence why it's hard to judge how effective a Lanza hit would be without a real example, preferable one other than an arbitrary superform we can't accurately measure being able to take it barehanded. Just because a blast is big doesn't mean it'll do much beyond superficial damage. Hell, even with that and it being of a high level doesn't mean it'll do jack, Hado 96 anyone?

I'd assume at least it's capable of matching CO, hence knocking Ichigo out of masked form and leaving behind superficial wounds at a minimum for someone at least around his level (ie: Hitsugaya, who probably tops him by quite a bit at this point thanks to nerfing, LOLKUBO... >>), but judging it from a high end estimate, particularly if it's not a direct hit (Which is NEVER happening due to how abysmal the aim is) and only applies to being caught in the blast radius at some arbitrary point is significantly more difficult with literally nothing to go by...


Are you talking about this?http://www.mangafox.com/manga/bleach/v42/c358/16.html

"That was a weak attack." Damn. Even Hitsugaya thinks so. Says wonders about her power (though I'll concede she was holding back waiting for more water). Yeah, he's not tanking any GT's, let alone Cero Oscuras or LDR. Unless you meant this:http://www.mangafox.com/manga/bleach/v41/c355/6.html

Which we don't see. We just see him on the ground bleeding from his forehead later. A link would help.

Or not. This is seeming like one of those agree to disagree things.
No, this one: http://www.mangafox.com/manga/bleach/v39/c339/13.html

Which is concluded here: http://www.mangafox.com/manga/bleach/v41/c354/17.html

Direct hit to the torso with a Getsuuga like attack, virtually no damage. Taking something similar to the ice wings frankly isn't getting through to do anything major. Might throw him back sure, but damage wise his Getsuuga is severely lacking in most regards, even with characters who don't have adequate defenses like Hierro.

Edit: Also:


Halibel's level above him doesn't have to mean she's stronger, or even faster. Just that her killing potential is superior. It could very well be her versatility that made her higher rank than he, as Zommari doesn't have a stronger hierro than Yammi, but managed to be ranked above him significantly likely based on the haxness of his Amore/greater speed. And if Kubo wants his rankings to make any kind of sense whatsoever, he HAS to take this stance, or else the ranks mean nothing, as one character who has shown greater destructive power/speed being ranked lower than another is quite frankly, retarded.
They're ranked by Reiatsu as stated in the databook. While this is completely retarded on multiple levels, this is why I say a Vizard Getsuuga, which couldn't even touch Ulquiorra in his first release, is doing the same to Harribel, as she's above him in reiatsu. This in itself cannot be argued, unless you make a case that it wasn't reiatsu that blocked it. Which while possible, I can't think of anything else to explain that garbage, there's clearly some kind of white thing going on there which Ulquiorra did not remotely use at all at any other point... >>

Frankly we can get into a impressive 'power' argument all day (Especially as I hold R1 as completely worthless, and R2 barely more thanks to actually impressive speed and Lanza, which can't hit crap), but frankly without much in the way of feats from either, other than the wildly varying Ichigo and fan favorite Hitsugaya, this is a case that's not easy to make clear.

However I will hold her being able to match CO, Ulquiorra outright told us all espada are capable of it in released state. Even assuming hers is weaker, which is entirely possible especially in R2, mitigating the damage to basically nothing with a clash, ala Grimmjaw, is entirely possible. Particularly if she's capable of her condensing trick to make it a cero slash with it.

Waking_Dreamer
November 23, 2010, 08:02 PM
Inability to stay out of range, obviously. Even against Halibel Hitsugaya was lulled into close range everytime he attempted a counterattack. One resulting in part of his tail being clipped off. Pulling that kind of strategy against characters that exceed her speed won't let him get away with as many close calls as he did with her.

Hitsugaya was never goated into going close range. The only time he was in close was when he did that sneak attck on Harribel where she was able to transfer her sword from one hand to the other, and then sliced off his tail.


They don't become significanlty more powerful, just larger scale. Hitsugaya's ice doesn't become harder, it just becomes more plentiful. Halibel's water doesn't become hotter, just more plentiful. I agree about using attacks faster, but if they're choreographing their attacks the way you're saying, I don't see them getting far.

Not necessarily, Harribel's water attacks rely on volume and sheer blunt impact. With increase mositure in the air she could make her AOE larger or in fact condense the excess moisture into her attack simply making it more solid and forceful.


Sennen Hyoro leaves the person within stationary for the most part. The last thing Hitsugaya or Halibel want to do is sit still against enemies on Ulquiorra or Ichigo's level. Hell, Ulq doesn't have to connect with LDR thanks to Hitsu giving him a target that huge. Hitting one of those floating ice pillars would make the attack explode, frying Halibel within.

Thats just an example and obviouly wont be used against R2 but should be useful against R1 who doesnt have Lanza. Raising Ice pillars would help in slowing down Ichigo as he would probably try to rush Hitsu or soften any GT that may be thrown his way.


If she starts melting it into water, she's left with no defense at all, and the LDR still explodes at close range. Not to mention if someone of Hitsugaya's speed level can dodge those droplets, it's cake for Ulq or Ichigo.

Its not like she would have any lesser defense than Ulquiorra or Ichigo. And it wont take long to melt it at all seeing as how she melted Hitsugayas other attacks, especially if he wants her to melt it instead of trying to hit her like before.

Lanza going to make a big boom wherever it hits, depending how close all the fighters are in combat the blast could affect everyone. It depends if Ulquiorra is going to care if Ichigo if left standing up with him.

ninjabot
November 23, 2010, 08:08 PM
Oh trust me, that's not my only example I can pull. The skull dudes from the execution squad that Rukia was fighting and managed to slay entirely bum rushed him before he could do crap, also in bankai, Gin was more or less keeping up with him in all regards without his bankai ability in CQC, this despite Hitsugaya actually edging ahead of Gin speed wise (Though granted at the same time he was also figuring out his bankai's true power, but EVEN THEN he should have just took the dudes head off if he was still that fast), and his general all around LACK of any sort of impressive speed after the Byakuya fight. The Orihime case is only the most blatant one I like to pull, as it was the official point I took away his speed cred.

Rudobon had numbers on his side, and could create a seemingly limitless number of skeletons. That was obviously more plot induced stupidity. And Hitsugaya was being played with by Gin. A bankailess Gin that used his sword's ability like, once.


Calling BS on this. We didn't see jack of what he did, and pushed down or not, it was still blocked. While it would be a valid excuse, he didn't freeze all of it as we still saw the water connect and become incapable of breaking through. Hence point remains, particularly since we're talking about Tenso Jurrin combat, so it's pretty much same deal.


Yes we did. We saw water fall on him. http://www.mangafox.com/manga/bleach/v42/c358/1.html

Then? We saw at the bottom of that waterfall, ice. http://www.mangafox.com/manga/bleach/v42/c358/2.html

And on the very same page, final panel, we see Hitsugaya underneath an ice structure. That's enough to negate your argument. The fact that he survived that attack is only because he had an ability that could diminish the force she wanted to hit him with, because it took her own attack and froze it before the full force could hit him. He can't do the same to a GT, nor a Cero Oscuras, nor an LDR because he can't freeze any of those attacks.



That the anime also goes with him creating the barrier prior to the hit connecting as opposed to freezing any of her water doesn't help the case, though admittedly that's hardly evidence. >>


There's no need for me to bring the anime into this. Simply look at the last panel and you see the shield. There's just no denyng it.


No, this one: http://www.mangafox.com/manga/bleach/v39/c339/13.html

Which is concluded here: http://www.mangafox.com/manga/bleach/v41/c354/17.html

Direct hit to the torso with a Getsuuga like attack, virtually no damage. Taking something similar to the ice wings frankly isn't getting through to do anything major. Might throw him back sure, but damage wise his Getsuuga is severely lacking in most regards, even with characters who don't have adequate defenses like Hierro.


First panel looks more like he blocked with his sword. The slash looks like it goes in between his wing. Hard to consider that very powerful though. Knocking Hitsugaya back doesn't a feat of strength make. And Hitsugaya blocking an attack from Halibel isn't amazing either, considering that the same thing happened to him against Luppi. Further testment to his less than impressive durability. I mean, saying that this is proof that he can tank an attack from Ichigo or Ulquiorra does'nt work, simply because the only thing we have to base Halibel's attack's strength on is the fact that someone not known to tank attacks...tanked it. Kind of.



However I will hold her being able to match CO, Ulquiorra outright told us all espada are capable of it in released state


Don't remember that either. I remember Grimmjow saying Granray was limited to Espada using it. And I remember Ulqiorra calling the Cero Oscuras "his" cero. But yeah, I'm not sure I care enough to find out anymore, lol.

Random101
November 23, 2010, 08:42 PM
Rudobon had numbers on his side, and could create a seemingly limitless number of skeletons. That was obviously more plot induced stupidity. And Hitsugaya was being played with by Gin. A bankailess Gin that used his sword's ability like, once.
Numbers do not negate inability to run around them when you're that fast, nor the fact that Rukia took them with relative ease by comparison. I'd go into the playing around argument, because frankly no one can argue that at the end he wasn't serious with eye opening and everything, but ultimately it's moot as if he was playing around with Ichigo in the same scenario that'd make it far worse either way.

Frankly Ichigo's been far too lacking in speed of late to label each and every case of it as plot induced stupidity. We haven't seen him use any sort of superspeed once since the fight with Byakuya.


Yes we did. We saw water fall on him. http://www.mangafox.com/manga/bleach/v42/c358/1.html

Then? We saw at the bottom of that waterfall, ice. http://www.mangafox.com/manga/bleach/v42/c358/2.html

And on the very same page, final panel, we see Hitsugaya underneath an ice structure. That's enough to negate your argument. The fact that he survived that attack is only because he had an ability that could diminish the force she wanted to hit him with, because it took her own attack and froze it before the full force could hit him. He can't do the same to a GT, nor a Cero Oscuras, nor an LDR because he can't freeze any of those attacks.
And there were mulitple ways to get that Ice structure there that don't involve freezing the same water. Hence why I said we don't see it, we can't call what he did unless we see it directly, which we don't. The only time we actually see what he did is in the anime, in which he summons an ice wall himself, which isn't a good argument for proving literally anything I'll tell you upfront, but it shows the case that unless we visibly see what happened, we can't say for sure what he did.

Regardless of what he did though: http://www.mangafox.com/manga/bleach/v42/c358/1.html

We see the massive strike hit the wall and remain literally incapable of going through. Ergo he blocked a building busting attack. Even if he reduced the damage, this proves that it is possible for his constructs of ice to block absurd amounts of force.


There's no need for me to bring the anime into this. Simply look at the last panel and you see the shield. There's just no denyng it.
Yes there's no arguing there's a shield there. There is arguing how the shield got there, which is what you don't seem to comprehend. There are several ways for that to happen, which since we didn't see, we don't know.


First panel looks more like he blocked with his sword. The slash looks like it goes in between his wing. Hard to consider that very powerful though. Knocking Hitsugaya back doesn't a feat of strength make. And Hitsugaya blocking an attack from Halibel isn't amazing either, considering that the same thing happened to him against Luppi. Further testment to his less than impressive durability. I mean, saying that this is proof that he can tank an attack from Ichigo or Ulquiorra does'nt work, simply because the only thing we have to base Halibel's attack's strength on is the fact that someone not known to tank attacks...tanked it. Kind of.
His sword isn't in position the previous panel, and there's literally nothing there showing him blocking it, so that arguments pretty stupid.

And duh it's going between the wing. Hence why I say it's connecting with the torso.

I'd go into the Luppi case being faking a dive given he was quite literally undamaged when he came back, but if people can't comprehend that at this point then there's little point. >>


Don't remember that either. I remember Grimmjow saying Granray was limited to Espada using it. And I remember Ulqiorra calling the Cero Oscuras "his" cero. But yeah, I'm not sure I care enough to find out anymore, lol.
http://www.mangafox.com/manga/bleach/v40/c346/17.html

This translation mind is one of the bad ones. If Manga Fox had the much better Maximum 7 Scanslation you'd see him saying that 'This is a released espada's cero'. For some reason 'Full Powered' and 'Released' were both interchanged between certain points in the manga, including this and the Yammi's 0 espada BS. Either translation you go though, he defines it, much like Grand Rey, to be usable by any espada.

However I draw contention to this in particular:


I mean, saying that this is proof that he can tank an attack from Ichigo or Ulquiorra does'nt work, simply because the only thing we have to base Halibel's attack's strength on is the fact that someone not known to tank attacks...tanked it. Kind of.
Among the series the number of people fully capable of continuing to fight with any modicrum of strength while taking absolutely massive amounts of damage are Kenpachi, Komamura, Chad, and Hitsugaya in various points in the series (Without resorting to BS mind, ala Ichinator). In terms of straight up tanking feats, Hitsugaya is roughly equivelent to those three, by virtue of being fully capable of continuing a fight while literally shreeded by his opponent.

Granted this bit in question happened once with a lower level opponent due to the limiter, but arguing that Hitsugaya doesn't tank is stupid when he has among the best taking feats in the series, bar the REAL tanks of the series.

Of course as we're arguing defense here, I will say that there's no way he gets out undamaged from a CO if it connects, nor potentially a Lanza. Both should by all means blow past his defense far better than most other attacks he's taking directly (Getting them to connect however is another issue entirely, especially Lanza).

Getsuuga however, is where I say no. That attack has proven supremely lacking when it comes up against any modicum of defense, and barely damaged a mid level captain with no outright defensive capacity from a direct hit (In admittedly bankai only, but no defensive capacity is still no defensive capacity), and has done so for each fight it's been in, up to and including Shirosaki vs. Byakuya. His slashes thus far have proven more dangerous. At best a direct hit from a defensive wing position with a Vizard Getsuuga would break through for moderate damage, well within his tanking capacity, because frankly the attack hasn't proven nearly as potent as most would believe.

Gran Maestro
November 24, 2010, 05:06 AM
This translation mind is one of the bad ones. If Manga Fox had the much better Maximum 7 Scanslation you'd see him saying that 'This is a released espada's cero'.

Here is M7 scanlation:

http://read.mangashare.com/Bleach/chapter-346/page017.html

Random101
November 24, 2010, 12:06 PM
Ah, so someplace does still have them. That's glorious news.

Raizen
November 24, 2010, 12:57 PM
Won't hit Hitsu or Halibel? Care to explain why? Hitsugaya has access to his ice version of Cicada, but Halibel certainly hasn't shown us any impressive speed (compared to the faster characters atleast). You could argue that Hitsugaya's ice could act as a shield, but Hitsugaya's bankai is on a time limit. He can't keep that up forever. Not to mention I'm finding it hard to believe Ulq or Ichigo don't just strongarm through his ice.
Ulqui couldn't land his lanza on a stationary hichigo when he was standing not too far away. And ichigo's GT can be avoided quite easily.

Noth hitsu and halibel are long ranged fighters, so chances of them being hit by lanza or GT is pretty low. Hitsu and halibel can both spam their attacks and yet they both were able to dodge their own attacks when they were fighting. Thus leading me to the conclusion that ulqui's and ichigo's long ranged attacks won't connect.

As for close combat, halibel is quite adept at close combat. To the point where she overwhelmed hitsu. Hitsu has the advantage in long range though. If halibel fought either ichigo or ulqui in close combat, she would dominate them. And hitsu is no slack either. Ichigo's speed has been made a joke ever since SS. So i don't see them having a speed advantage

conn-man
November 27, 2010, 02:25 AM
Since we found out the espada ranks were only based on reiatsu levels, I see some lower espada giving higher espada a run for their money, even beating them. We think captains with lower reiatsu can beat big reiatsu captains, don't we? Why not the espada.

With that, I think ulquiorra is a better fighter than hallibel and hitsuguya. He's faster and his style is deadlyer. With ichigos getsuga variety and speed, I say they could do it without segunda.

But for hallibel and hitsuguya I say that ichigo wouldn't handle getting ice anywhere on him very well, a frozen arm or leg would leave him vulnerable . Ulquiorra would be a little better at handling ice better but not hitsus biggest moves. Sennen hyoro and HH would get both of them if he could set it up.

Still I vote for ichigo/ulquiorra.

Raizen
November 29, 2010, 02:17 PM
Since we found out the espada ranks were only based on reiatsu levels, I see some lower espada giving higher espada a run for their money, even beating them. We think captains with lower reiatsu can beat big reiatsu captains, don't we? Why not the espada.

With that, I think ulquiorra is a better fighter than hallibel and hitsuguya. He's faster and his style is deadlyer. With ichigos getsuga variety and speed, I say they could do it without segunda.

But for hallibel and hitsuguya I say that ichigo wouldn't handle getting ice anywhere on him very well, a frozen arm or leg would leave him vulnerable . Ulquiorra would be a little better at handling ice better but not hitsus biggest moves. Sennen hyoro and HH would get both of them if he could set it up.

Still I vote for ichigo/ulquiorra.
The hell arc shows us that rank tells us that those of weaker rank has an almost impossible chance of beating someone higher than them. So that means ulqui is weaker than halibel no matter what way u slice it

Takahashi
November 29, 2010, 03:22 PM
The hell arc shows us that rank tells us that those of weaker rank has an almost impossible chance of beating someone higher than them. So that means ulqui is weaker than halibel no matter what way u slice it

It's because Ulq had a second form that people began to think that he was the strongest. But honestly, he was thrashing Ichigo before he transformed anyway, so we have nothing to compare it to.

ninjabot
November 29, 2010, 03:45 PM
Ulqui couldn't land his lanza on a stationary hichigo when he was standing not too far away. And ichigo's GT can be avoided quite easily.


Again, you're acting like he's obligated to throw the attack. He isn't, and niether Hitsugaya nor Halibel have the strength to tank a close range LDR the way God Mode Ichigo did. As for dodging GT's, you'd have to convince me that Hitsugaya or Halibel could move at, or above, the speed of someone that's already dodged one before (from the current level Ichigo). Good luck with that.


Noth hitsu and halibel are long ranged fighters, so chances of them being hit by lanza or GT is pretty low. Hitsu and halibel can both spam their attacks and yet they both were able to dodge their own attacks when they were fighting. Thus leading me to the conclusion that ulqui's and ichigo's long ranged attacks won't connect.


Not at all. Both sides have long distance options, meaning speed and strength will decide the victor. If you throw an attack at someone that's weaker than the attack they're throwing at you, their attack will go through. Halibel and Hitsugaya's exchange wasn't at all based on strength of attack, but rather the fact that they can render the attacks useless before they connect (and Hitsugaya was only barely keeping up).

Halibel can't melt a GT or Cero Oscuras. Hitsugaya can't freeze a GT or Cero Oscuras. Amp things up to LDR or VGT and the fight becomes more drastic.



As for close combat, halibel is quite adept at close combat. To the point where she overwhelmed hitsu. Hitsu has the advantage in long range though. If halibel fought either ichigo or ulqui in close combat, she would dominate them. And hitsu is no slack either. Ichigo's speed has been made a joke ever since SS. So i don't see them having a speed advantage


How do you figure that? How she managed to not overwhelm VC level opponents? Or how she couldn't connect with a decisive blow against Hitsugaya because he made her one ability useless? She couldn't land a direct blow on Hitsugaya because her water was made a non-issue, but she's supposed to dominate faster opponents? She could pose an actual threat because Ichigo and Ulq can't freeze her water... but luckily for them, it's friggin' WATER. Halibel hasn't even been shown to have a level of manipulative ability with her element the way Hitsugaya does, so no making water shields or attacking from every angle.



The hell arc shows us that rank tells us that those of weaker rank has an almost impossible chance of beating someone higher than them. So that means ulqui is weaker than halibel no matter what way u slice it


You can't believe that and still be expected to be taken seriously. You honestly believe that Leroux having higher reiatsu than Szayel prevents him from having dolls made of him? Or that having higher reiatsu protects Grimmjow from Leroux's Amore? Or that Starrk can't be disentigrated by Barragan's Respira? And Ulq's rank was given without knowledge of his Segunda Etappa.


It's as simple as "one character dominated one of the stronger characters, while the other character barely lasted against one of the weaker captains".

conn-man
November 29, 2010, 04:52 PM
The hell arc shows us that rank tells us that those of weaker rank has an almost impossible chance of beating someone higher than them. So that means ulqui is weaker than halibel no matter what way u slice it

im debating that even in R1 ulquiorra is more dangerous than hallibel based on skill, speed, intelligence and technique. she can have bigger reiatsu all day but i dont see her beating him. i even see nnoitra and grimmjow showing her a challenge based on their attributes.

on the topic of R2 using lanzela, ulquiorra was shocked when ichigos hollow form blocked it barehanded. the way i see it is that big spear can be used the same way he used than beam sword in R1, only now its bigger and stronger since hes in segunda.