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gernot
November 10, 2010, 11:48 PM
Well, this question really belongs with chapter 108, and maybe it was discussed in one of the discussion threads there, but... I can't find the threads anymore so I'll make a new one!

Rabona was attacked by youma and awakened beings. We've been speculating that the organization created youma, but this is the first hard evidence that the org can actually control youma, not just create them and set them loose, but actually direct them to attack a certain target. After all, they weren't quietly trying to infiltrate Rabona but rather openly attacking it.

I'm quite willing to accept that youma can be controlled, but how does that work with AB? I mean, isn't the reason the org is going through all this trouble with female warriors and experiments and such that the *can't* control ABs? Haven't we met plenty of ABs, such as Riful and Isley, that clearly are not controlled by the org? Isely sent other AB to attack the org, and Riful said that she can't cooperate with the org to fight Priscilla. Even the AB that Miria, Deneve, Helen, and Clare fought way in the beginning seemed to hint that the organization was intentionally sending the warriors to him to be killed, but was he really cooperating or maybe even controlled by the org? Up to now I hadn't thought so...

Any comments welcome, also feel free to redirect to threads where this was previously discussed.

Goral
November 11, 2010, 12:58 AM
It certainly is a good question. I've discussed about it a bit here (second paragraph) (http://mangahelpers.com/forum/showpost.php?p=2156164&postcount=49) and here (http://mangahelpers.com/forum/showpost.php?p=2161794&postcount=59). What I'm saying there basically is that they would control them the same way they control youma - by intimidation. Since these were only weak ABs (much weaker than the ones in Pieta) it shouldn't be much of a surprise they could control them. After all Isley could control an army of male ABs (30 of them if I remember correctly) and strong at that so it's no wonder that the organization that was stronger than Isley himself (if we count Alicia and Beth in) would be able to do the same. They could not only intimidate them, they could also reward them for cooperation. You do what we say and you won't be hungry and you won't have to worry about Claymores (they could send them humans themselves or reveal which villages can be attacked). You don't and you'll regret it. Simple reward-punishment system could do wonders.

HegemonKhan
November 11, 2010, 02:32 AM
don't forget that they must regularly use normal yomas for their final test/trial for their Claymore trainees (as seen in the flashback extra chapter of Clare as a Claymore trainee), and that the normal yomas do so, despite having to know that they will be killed (eventually there's going to be a strong enough trainee that does kill the normal yoma, lol).

And as you pointed out, there's also that "spiderman" male AB as well. whom was at least used / cooperated with the Org, doing their "dirty work" of executing the weaker "troublesome" Claymores (while Rafaela executed the stronger "troublesome" Claymores) secretly for the Org so they don't get their "own hands dirty/bloody".

ch. 108 and 109 proves that what Teresa had said was actually factual, with the attack on Rabona and Dietrich's confession about her past. So, that "yoma nest" town where Irene, Sophia, Noel, and Priscilla met before they hunted down Teresa, must have been a town that didn't pay, and the Org set upon the town a horde of normal yomas, just as they had done on Rabona in ch 108 (but Rabona also had ABs as well involved) and Dietrich's home town.

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there's a lot of speculation available here at how/why the Org is able to control/compel the normal yomas and ABs, but here's one simple speculation:

well, we got obedient Claymores and disobedient deserting Claymores...

so, why not the same with normal yomas and Awakeneds?

all of the "wild" normal yomas and Awakeneds are the disobedient deserting ones, while the Org secretly has a legion of obedient normal yomas and ABs.... hehe.

Isley and his 30 ABs (riful+Dauf, and many more etc) are maybe no different than the Rabona rebel Claymores+Ghosts

Goral
November 11, 2010, 03:44 AM
(...)
And as you pointed out, there's also that "spiderman" male AB as well. whom was at least used / cooperated with the Org, doing their "dirty work" of executing the weaker "troublesome" Claymores (while Rafaela executed the stronger "troublesome" Claymores) secretly for the Org so they don't get their "own hands dirty/bloody". (...)
From chapter 84 we know that it was Rubel who sent that male AB, not the organization. It's possible that male AB was doing Org's dirty work usually and Rubel just used his authority to kill 4 HAs (half-awakeneds). That would explain why Ermita was there, to check why Rubel wanted these 4 warriors killed and how their male AB was being used.
We can also deduce from volume 5 (page 185 or so, end of it anyhow) that the mistake male AB was talking about was that Miria assumed the organization doesn't make male claymores anymore. So if they create them they must have some means to control them (at least to some degree). Hell, maybe MiB are using Claymores instead of youma to make male awakened beings. That way they have more human-like Claymores that as an awakeneds don't pose as much of a threat as they would if youma were used like usual. Maybe MiB are the products of such "diluting" and are 1/32 youma. /joke

FĂȘ - forever alone
November 11, 2010, 05:36 AM
I mean, isn't the reason the org is going through all this trouble with female warriors and experiments and such that the *can't* control ABs?
---

Actually, the org. can't control the AOs and the strong ABs, but can control the rest of them. The org's real goal is to create strong and controllable ABs, who won't go wild, and can't think by itself, like Alicia and Beth, and on another line: the AEs.

gernot
November 11, 2010, 11:15 AM
That's all very well, but:

the org hunts AB, especially after Pieta. Warriors are sent out to find and kill them, and their remains are used for the org's experiments. This proves to me that the org at least doesn't create its own AB, if they did, they wouldn't need to hunt the "wild" ones. Who would go and negotiate with the "wild" AB, or try to intimidate them? Certainly not the warriors. And if there was really something like that going on, it seems very strange that the spider-AB was the only one who ever even hinted at cooperating with the org. No other AB mentioned that the org approached or threatened them, and Isley and Riful didn't mention anything like that either (having been around for a long time, and Isley having AB subordinates, they should at least have heard about it, even if they weren't approached themselves.

Now, if the org had some way of capturing and subduing ABs, and then releasing them close to a target city, you could guess that they might go and attack the city without and explicit control or orders by the org. I don't have a problem if they do that with youma, cause they don't seem to be too smart to begin with, but ABs used to be warriors. They know the official rules, and it's hard to imagine that they would suddenly willingly accept and cooperate with the evil org just because they turned into AB. They're bound to try to fight the org, or at least try to betray it at the earliest possiblility. Maybe some of them flocked to Isley to feel safe from the org? But I should think that we would have heard about it, some grumbling, or some attempt by ABs to undermine the warriors' morale by hinting at this possibility...

One last thing I can think of: Maybe there's something like a lure that the org has to draw youma and AB to a particular place. Something ilke the scent of a particular target in the case of AE, but more general. Then they just have to release that in the target city and an attack will soon happen, without any explicit orders. It's still hard to imagine what that would be though, and I would still expect them to trickle in more one-by-one rather than attack in full force all at once...

HegemonKhan
November 11, 2010, 03:19 PM
one thing that's possible....

the normal yomas and ABs were "herded" towards Rabona...

something far more dangerous/powerful was causing all the normal yomas and ABs to run away... in the direction of Rabona....


though, this doesn't really work, as why did the normal yomas and ABs stop and attack Rabona... if they were fleeing for their lives from something...

Joe7133
November 29, 2010, 04:30 AM
Well, if you really think about it. AB are only experimental subjects that have been awakened and cannot be control by for the Organization for war purpose. Thus meaning they think for themselves and they do not follow the organization order.

The AB could probably be wipe out easy if the Organization wanted too, but I think they let them live because they wanted to test out their new War subjects. Remember this so call Continent is just an experimental Continent. The Organization probably have more powerful weapon then the AB but I think they fail to control them that is all.

What I'm trying to say is that when you build a War weapon, you want it to be efficient, easy to control, and easy to produce afterward.

HegemonKhan
November 29, 2010, 09:05 PM
The manga has thus far taken place on a small island, but according to Rubel, and Miria's own fact checking, there's a continent across the ocean/sea that the Org had came from ~100 years ago to use as an isolated lab for creating/developing controllable ABs, as originally there was no Org or Yomas on the island past ~ 100 years ago.

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Ch. 109's Rabona Seige Battle by the normal yomas and ABs reveals that the Organization can in fact control/compel even ABs, as well as normal yomas, to do what they want.

Prior to ch. 109, this was hinted at:

1. Teresa directly saying so, though at the time we didn't know if she was being factual or not.

2. The "Yoma Nest" town that Irene, Sophia, Noel, and Priscilla meet at before setting out to execute Teresa.

3. The "Spiderman" male AB that Miria, Deneve, Helen, and Clare fought

4. the poor normal yomas whom have to be the trainee Claymores' final test/trial, as seen in the special-extra chapter about Clare as a trainee.

5. and probably a few more hints too