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En Yang Ji
November 16, 2010, 12:18 PM
Rules and Conditions:



Scenario 1

1. The fight takes place in FKT
2. Yama can't use bankai
3. Gin can use bankai
4. Gin is dead serious and will go for the kill at the beginning.


Scenario 2

1. The fight takes place in FKT
2. Yama can use bankai
3. Gin can use bankai
4. Gin is dead serious and will go for the kill at the beginning.


I think Gin's bankai, is on a higher level than Yama's shikai as far as how haxx it is. I just saw the episode Gin used it. It became even more evident Gin was just playing around and could have killed Ichigo at any time. I don't think anyone other than Aizen and the powered up Ichigo could handle Gin's bankai.

Gin would just point Kamishini no yari at Yama and than that would end it in my opinion. I know other people think differently though so that's why I created this thread.

Richo
November 16, 2010, 12:55 PM
Gin might be strong but if yama can solo shunsui and ukitake, then gin shouldn't pose much of a threat either.
I admit gin has a hax bankai and its special ability is nasty aswell but dust (as how it is described) is highly flamable even iron dusts catches fire (I talk from experience).
so i give this to yama for having 1. superior stats in databook, 2. being the strongest shinigami alive (admited by Aize himself)

En Yang Ji
November 16, 2010, 01:02 PM
Gin might be strong but if yama can solo shunsui and ukitake, then gin shouldn't pose much of a threat either.
I admit gin has a hax bankai and its special ability is nasty aswell but dust (as how it is described) is highly flamable even iron dusts catches fire (I talk from experience).
so i give this to yama for having 1. superior stats in databook, 2. being the strongest shinigami alive (admited by Aize himself)

Yama was only able to take on those two because neither was using bankai. The speed of Gins bankai is what causes me to believe he could beat Yama.

Random101
November 16, 2010, 01:07 PM
The speed isn't all that impressive if Ichigo, once he's paying attention, can dodge. A straight up thrust is not hitting pretty much any of the captains reliably, especially Yamamoto, bar a backstab strike or something. His Serial blade tech might help, but frankly the asinine stance is the killer of that move. Anyone with half a brain should be able to flashstep out of the way of that, and then Gin's wide open.

Gin's bankai, though incredibly hax, has a lot of ways to work around it frankly even without someone who is just that good taking a gander at it. Yamamoto godstomps here. Possibly without even his Zanpakuto, depending on if he can get close enough for a single bone tech.

ninjabot
November 16, 2010, 01:23 PM
Yamamoto babyshakes Gin. The only time Gin's ever successfully struck anyone with his zanpakuto is when their back is turned, or they're preoccupied and he relies on a surprise attack. I'm confident that's because it's crap against anyone proficient with shunpo thanks to it's linear line of strike.

Yamamoto won't tank a stab unless he's close enough to injure Gin considerably, so Gin can't rely on Yama tanking on purpose so he can activate his disentigrating dust. Something like, pushing the sword aside while he rushes in to One Bone him is how I see the fight ending in either scenario.


Yama was only able to take on those two because neither was using bankai.


Niether was Yama-jii. It took them both to stand against Yama for however long they did, while they were all in shikai. If they upped the ante to bankai, he could aswell, which would still leave him stronger than them both combined.

En Yang Ji
November 16, 2010, 01:36 PM
The speed isn't all that impressive if Ichigo, once he's paying attention, can dodge. A straight up thrust is not hitting pretty much any of the captains reliably, especially Yamamoto, bar a backstab strike or something. His Serial blade tech might help, but frankly the asinine stance is the killer of that move. Anyone with half a brain should be able to flashstep out of the way of that, and then Gin's wide open.

Gin's bankai, though incredibly hax, has a lot of ways to work around it frankly even without someone who is just that good taking a gander at it. Yamamoto godstomps here. Possibly without even his Zanpakuto, depending on if he can get close enough for a single bone tech.

Ichigo noted himself that he didn't have the reflexes to see KNS extend or contract. The reason Ichigo could dodge is likely because Gin was playing around. He was anticipating Gins thrust, but Gin doesn't have to thrust to extend his sword. All he has to do is point his sword. Gin was playing around, Ichigo noted that it would been to Gins advantage to just attack him instead of slicing buildings and giving Ichigo a chance to figure out how fast KNS is.

Ichigo wouldn't have been able to Dodge if Gin was serious. Imagine if Gin pointed his sword at Ichigo, Ichigo jump to the left and gin just waited a second to see where Ichigo would go and shot him. It would be just that easy for Gin to beat Ichigo at that point.
[hr]
@Ninjabot: IMO Yama may be stronger if he used bankai. My point is with bankai captains of a certain level can beat Yama's shikai.

ninjabot
November 16, 2010, 01:37 PM
And Gin wouldn't have been able to endure those GT's or out maneuver Ichigo if he hadn't lost the will to fight (his hollowfied KGT barely harmed Yammi, but Byakuya, someone not known for pure destructive force, managed to shred his face with the weakest form of his Bankai). Ditto for patched Zaraki.

That's testament to how much weaker Ichigo was during his fight with Gin.

Random101
November 16, 2010, 01:41 PM
Ichigo noted himself that he didn't have the reflexes to see KNS extend or contract. The reason Ichigo could dodge is likely because Gin was playing around. He was anticipating Gins thrust, but Gin doesn't have to thrust to extend his sword. All he has to do is point his sword. Gin was playing around, Ichigo noted that it would been to Gins advantage to just attack him instead of slicing buildings and giving Ichigo a chance to figure out how fast KNS is.

Ichigo wouldn't have been able to Dodge if Gin was serious. Imagine if Gin pointed his sword at Ichigo, Ichigo jump to the left and gin just waited a second to see where Ichigo would go and shot him. It would be just that easy for Gin to beat Ichigo at that point.
The vital flaw in your argument is that Gin himself outright notes he missed and that Ichigo was dodging his thrusts. Whether he was playing around or not, that already tells you it's entirely possible to dodge blows Gin entirely wanted to hit. I'd also go into the long discussion of whether or not Gin was 'playing around' but suffice to say I already have the evidence I need provided by the man himself to prove that it's possible for someone severely lacking in speed at that point in time to dodge and more importantly block his thrusts.

En Yang Ji
November 16, 2010, 01:45 PM
The vital flaw in your argument is that Gin himself outright notes he missed and that Ichigo was dodging his thrusts. Whether he was playing around or not, that already tells you it's entirely possible to dodge blows Gin entirely wanted to hit. I'd also go into the long discussion of whether or not Gin was 'playing around' but suffice to say I already have the evidence I need provided by the man himself to prove that it's possible for someone severely lacking in speed at that point in time to dodge and more importantly block his thrusts.

Ichigo dodged the downward swing not the thrust. Ichigo being able to block only means he placed his sword at the right place when Gin pointed his sword at him. Gin was either playing around or Gin was right about it being a lucky block.

Random101
November 16, 2010, 01:51 PM
Uh, no, the context of that entire scene makes no sense at all if it was a swing (He noticed on the first, dodged the second? He blocked the first and the second did connect if we're talking swings, and don't get me started on that third one between panels). He dodged a thrust. Repeatedly no less, including one aimed at the head. Which given that don't start me down the playing around discussion. >>

kkck
November 16, 2010, 01:53 PM
Well, the ability gin has certainly would kill yama but I have my doubts about gin actually getting that hit. I guess it depends on how exactly yama handles the battle. with bankai yama should pretty much one shot gin. If yama can't use bankai then I see gin holding out for a while but I don't think he'd win. I don't think he would get that crucial hit on yama 90% of the times.

Random101
November 16, 2010, 01:55 PM
^That in essence. Getting the vital hit in takes a good amount of luck. Like Barragon thanks to his hax he pretty much never has a 0% chance of victory if it's possible to damage the opponent (Unless it's against Barragon I suppose, or someone who can survive the poison), but unlike him it's significantly harder for him to utilize it. Gin has a chance, especially if we restrict Yamamoto to no Zanpakuto, but it's not significantly high unless the person is primarily close ranged, ie: Harder for Gin to miss. And even then there are ways.

exacta
November 16, 2010, 04:05 PM
[B]

Gin would just point Kamishini no yari at Yama and than that would end it in my opinion. I know other people think differently though so that's why I created this thread.

It sounds like you forgot that Gin told Aizen that what he said about how the length of Kamishini no yari and how fast it extends and contracts was a LIE. He didn't specify exactly how fast and long it is in comparison to shikai, but it's not so fast that all he has to do is point it at you(unless he's fighting close range).

Therer's no reason to say Gin was toying with Ichigo. He even said he wasn't gonna hold back, and if he wanted to toy with him, why would he bother immediatley going Bankai? He even went so far as to try and throw him off mentally when he explained his Bankai so he could get an advantage. Gin definitely took that fight seriously.

Gin's Bankai is still dangerous, but he's got no chance against Yama IMO. Even Aizen wouldn't fight him. Granted, if Gin could pull a stunt on Yama like he did with Aizen in Karakura, he could kill him, but Yama has no reason to trust/pretend to trust Gin, so that scenario is impossible. If the fight took place in Soul Society before Aizen's betrayal.Aizen's death, Gin could trick him like he did with Aizen, and then he'd have a good chance.

El Samurai Guapo
November 16, 2010, 04:16 PM
It sounds like you forgot that Gin told Aizen that what he said about how the length of Kamishini no yari and how fast it extends and contracts was a LIE. He didn't specify exactly how fast and long it is in comparison to shikai, but it's not so fast that all he has to do is point it at you(unless he's fighting close range).

It is actually still damn fast. Gin could retract the blade back to the length of a wakizashi faster than Ichigo could see, even while he was focusing on it.


Therer's no reason to say Gin was toying with Ichigo. He even said he wasn't gonna hold back, and if he wanted to toy with him, why would he bother immediatley going Bankai?

How about the fact that Ichigo turned his back on him twice and Gin didn't snipe him in the back of the head? Or the fact that Gin's real motive was to kill Aizen, not Ichigo. Gin obviously wanted Ichigo to face Aizen in the event of his own failure.

I think Gin has a chance against anyone, provided they don't know about the poison trick. Yamamoto isn't exactly reluctant to letting himself get stabbed to create an opening on his opponents for himself either.

En Yang Ji
November 16, 2010, 04:25 PM
It sounds like you forgot that Gin told Aizen that what he said about how the length of Kamishini no yari and how fast it extends and contracts was a LIE. He didn't specify exactly how fast and long it is in comparison to shikai, but it's not so fast that all he has to do is point it at you(unless he's fighting close range).

Therer's no reason to say Gin was toying with Ichigo. He even said he wasn't gonna hold back, and if he wanted to toy with him, why would he bother immediatley going Bankai? He even went so far as to try and throw him off mentally when he explained his Bankai so he could get an advantage. Gin definitely took that fight seriously.

Gin's Bankai is still dangerous, but he's got no chance against Yama IMO. Even Aizen wouldn't fight him. Granted, if Gin could pull a stunt on Yama like he did with Aizen in Karakura, he could kill him, but Yama has no reason to trust/pretend to trust Gin, so that scenario is impossible. If the fight took place in Soul Society before Aizen's betrayal.Aizen's death, Gin could trick him like he did with Aizen, and then he'd have a good chance.

I don't think Yama could react to it. If he can he wins easily. If he can't I think Gin would win. I don't think Yama could position his blade at the same time Gin moved and pointed his. He would have to be able to basically read his mind to tell in time IMO.

- Gin would of had more of an advantage if he just attacked Ichigo instead of giving him the chance to figure it out.

- Gin could attack Yama when Yama switches to offense. Yama would have to concentrate and stay on the defensive to evade KNS.

Takahashi
November 16, 2010, 04:36 PM
It is actually still damn fast. Gin could retract the blade back to the length of a wakizashi faster than Ichigo could see, even while he was focusing on it.



How about the fact that Ichigo turned his back on him twice and Gin didn't snipe him in the back of the head? Or the fact that Gin's real motive was to kill Aizen, not Ichigo. Gin was obviously wanted Ichigo to face Aizen in the event of his own failure.

I think Gin has a chance against anyone, provided they don't know about the poison trick. Yamamoto isn't exactly reluctant to letting himself get stabbed to create an opening on his opponents for himself either.

I agree with just about all of this. But the last sentence is just plain wrong. Yama didn't let himself get stabbed for just any opening, it was the one and only opening to deal with a hax shikai that required a stabbing. This situation is the opposite, yama doesn't get stabbed to see what his opponents abilities are, he does what he has to depending on what the ability is. Even if he doesn't know gin's ability, he'll know his shikai, and therefore, the basis of his bankai, he'll be expecting a fast moving sword coming his way from any range, and he'll deal with it.

Gin's got a chance for a kill in theory, but it's almost an impossibility when faced with not only the strongest shinigami, but one that has vastly more experience, speed, power, and the resolve to rip gin's arms off and blow open his chest with a couple punches.

fusionshogun
November 16, 2010, 06:32 PM
I don't think Gin could hold his own versus Yamamoto if Yamamoto was using any form of his zanpakuto. If Yamamoto didn't use his zanpakuto, I think it would be a more drawn out fight that Gin still couldn't win. Most of the time, I doubt Gin would be able to hit Yamamoto if Yamamoto had his shikai. Yamamoto was regarded as fast by Shunsui a long time ago, and in addition it's possible that his zanpakuto could just incinerate Shinsou. Also, I don't think it's fair to say that just because Gin hits Yamamoto that the fight would be over and Yamamoto would perish. Remember when Soifon tried to use her shikai's 2-hit kill ability on Aizen? Apparently it just didn't work (unless that was also part of KS's illusion, which would be awkward and unlikely). I'm going out on a limb but I think Yamamoto has a bit higher reiatsu than Gin, so couldn't it be possible that Yamamoto could in fact tank the fight and ignore the disintegrating poison? My final judgement would be that, even though it's all speculative, Yamamoto would win regardless of zanpakuto (why do people try to make comparisons with Yamamoto's bankai without having even seen it?).

En Yang Ji
November 16, 2010, 06:43 PM
Aizen likely had more reiastu than Yama in his 2nd form and he couldn't tank it.

Random101
November 16, 2010, 07:15 PM
I'd ignore that feat. 'Beings of a dimension below me should not be able to do anything unless I allow it' and all. Ie: JUST AS PLANNED. Particularly after his whole 'Death is required for advancement' bull.

This is, mind you, why I ignore practically every feat directly involving Aizen in the HM arc.

vizardichigo
November 16, 2010, 08:05 PM
Gin can in essence win this fight...Hell, in theory anyone can beat yama even Kon. But practically speaking there is no way Gin wins this..Gin needs one hit to beat Yama, but so does Yama...People forget how he sliced Allon in HALF with just the pressure from the swing. Or how he just flicked his sword and scorched 3 released fraccion??? Gin cant fight while cut in half like Allon and he damn sure has no HSR like Sun-Sun and co. Like i said in theory, he can win this fight...But were they to actually fight could he win? Never...Only Aizen is on Yama's level and even he has a higher chance of losing to Yama than he does of winning. I love Gin but Yama is just on a completely different level.

ninjaman
November 16, 2010, 08:43 PM
Gin would stand no chance against yama. Its not like he is some slow weak old man.

Primecut
November 17, 2010, 04:40 AM
Aizen's shikai is not as fast as Gin's bankai and Aizen managed to put it through Yama's stomach easily. A serious Gin skewers yama, deposits the poison, and uses the kill command before Yama realizes he's been pierced.

Takahashi
November 17, 2010, 01:39 PM
Aizen's shikai is not as fast as Gin's bankai and Aizen managed to put it through Yama's stomach easily. A serious Gin skewers yama, deposits the poison, and uses the kill command before Yama realizes he's been pierced.

Facedesk*

It's called KS, and he had to use it against his fight with the captains, Yama wasn't even remotely impressed either, do you honestly think he wouldn't use it on the freaking Captain Commander?

Even if we assume he didn't use it, there's no proof whatsoever to say that Gin's Bankai extends faster than Aizen can move, none. Being blindsided by Gin's Bankai when he's a foot away proves nothing by the way.

Raizen
November 17, 2010, 02:00 PM
Is this thread serious? Yama would own gin so bad. He'd whip his ass so bad gin will close his eyes on purpose just to hope the pain goes away.

Gin's bankai speed was a lie. He stated that. And even if it wasn't, yama will probably just catch it and own him. Yama is a beast. NO SINGLE CAPTAIN can beat him

En Yang Ji
November 17, 2010, 02:23 PM
Is this thread serious? Yama would own gin so bad. He'd whip his ass so bad gin will close his eyes on purpose just to hope the pain goes away.

Gin's bankai speed was a lie. He stated that. And even if it wasn't, yama will probably just catch it and own him. Yama is a beast. NO SINGLE CAPTAIN can beat him

I honestly think Gin would skewer Yama as soon as he pointed it at him. For Yama to be able to know where Gin point his sword in time he would basically have to read his mind.

- this is off topic, but Aizen could beat Yama without the HG. If you want to reply please do it in the Yama vs Aizen thread.

Raizen
November 17, 2010, 02:28 PM
I honestly think Gin would skewer Yama as soon as he pointed it at him. For Yama to be able to know where Gin point his sword in time he would basically have to read his mind.

- this is off topic, but Aizen could beat Yama without the HG. If you want to reply please do it in the Yama vs Aizen thread.
Ichigo was able to respond and counter gin. So yama would be able to do it as well, in fact much much better. One hit from yama is enough to kill gin.

Furthermore, gin's bankai speed was stated to be a lie. The power of the bankai lies in its poison. But that will only work if gin can get the hit in, which i don't see happening.

No, aizen couldn't beat yama. Even with the advantage he had of yama being under KS, he was still scared of fighting yama that he created WW. But u seem to underestimate the commander and his students despite manga facts so there is no point to continue that

En Yang Ji
November 17, 2010, 02:46 PM
Ichigo was able to respond and counter gin. So yama would be able to do it as well, in fact much much better. One hit from yama is enough to kill gin.

Furthermore, gin's bankai speed was stated to be a lie. The power of the bankai lies in its poison. But that will only work if gin can get the hit in, which i don't see happening.

No, aizen couldn't beat yama. Even with the advantage he had of yama being under KS, he was still scared of fighting yama that he created WW. But u seem to underestimate the commander and his students despite manga facts so there is no point to continue that

Ichigo couldn't react to it. He had to anticipate it, but was Gin trying to kill Ichigo? Gin wanted Ichigo to kill Aizen so he most likely wasn't try to kill him. Could Ichigo really anticipate Gins attacks? Unlikely IMO. Although it was in the anime, Gin showed he could easily skewer Ichigo. Ichigo took too long to realize Gin was pointing his sword at him.

- you may be right. I may be underestimating Yama, but I honestly don't think that's the case. Aizen could easily trick Yama into thinking he's somewhere else while Aizen is giving a speech than stab Yama in the heart or head.

BaddAzzKenpachi74
November 17, 2010, 02:47 PM
dear god........
whoever believes that Gin could posibly take on Yama and win must be the biggest die hard Gin fan i've ever seen.
Gin has show NOTHING to even indicate that he could beat Shunsui,Ukitake or Aizen let alone Yama "who can beat all three of those guys".

Gran Maestro
November 17, 2010, 02:48 PM
Gin is so outclassed in this fight that I guess he would concede defeat without trying.

Takahashi
November 17, 2010, 03:26 PM
Ichigo couldn't react to it. He had to anticipate it, but was Gin trying to kill Ichigo? Gin wanted Ichigo to kill Aizen so he most likely wasn't try to kill him. Could Ichigo really anticipate Gins attacks? Unlikely IMO. Although it was in the anime, Gin showed he could easily skewer Ichigo. Ichigo took too long to realize Gin was pointing his sword at him.

- you may be right. I may be underestimating Yama, but I honestly don't think that's the case. Aizen could easily trick Yama into thinking he's somewhere else while Aizen is giving a speech than stab Yama in the heart or head.

Gin also fought the weak, no resolve ichigo, so even if gin wasn't trying, ichigo wasn't at a fraction of his power anyway.

Yama is so terrifyingly strong that he didn't even get to show off his shikai at full power. Instead, kubo made him lose his sword, not use shunpo, and not use kido and he still was more impressive than gin has ever been. He was scrapped down to something as basic as punching and was still better than bankai kensei.

Yama openly mocked aizen for his lack of power just seconds after soloing the gotei 13 and vaizards.

I like gin, he's a tough opponent for a lot of people, but yama isn't one of them.

kkck
November 17, 2010, 03:42 PM
Is this thread serious? Yama would own gin so bad. He'd whip his ass so bad gin will close his eyes on purpose just to hope the pain goes away.

Gin's bankai speed was a lie. He stated that. And even if it wasn't, yama will probably just catch it and own him. Yama is a beast. NO SINGLE CAPTAIN can beat him

Well, in all fairness the reason gin was able to maintain that lie was because his bankai is indeed pretty damn fast. As poor as ichigo usually is as a point of comparison, I think the bit about him not being capable of perceiving the blade contracting is relevant and shows how fast the bankai indeed is(even if not as fast as gin originally lied it was). Now, every aspect if gins bankai is mean to score that 1 hit which could result in unavoidable doom. I think gin does have a small chance of actually getting the minuscule required cut to gin the poison in. Surely he would fail 90-95% of the time in a fair fight but its not like the possibility does not exist. I don't think it is possible to fight off the poison with reiatsu so getting that 1 hit would indeed spell doom for yama.

Raizen
November 18, 2010, 10:08 PM
Ichigo couldn't react to it. He had to anticipate it, but was Gin trying to kill Ichigo? Gin wanted Ichigo to kill Aizen so he most likely wasn't try to kill him. Could Ichigo really anticipate Gins attacks? Unlikely IMO. Although it was in the anime, Gin showed he could easily skewer Ichigo. Ichigo took too long to realize Gin was pointing his sword at him.

- you may be right. I may be underestimating Yama, but I honestly don't think that's the case. Aizen could easily trick Yama into thinking he's somewhere else while Aizen is giving a speech than stab Yama in the heart or head.
The same ichigo gin stated was pathetic compared to the one in SS, you know the ichigo that hadn't fought kenpachi or even get bankai yet. Using ichigo as a measuring stick is a failed idea. Furthermore, gin was quite serious. If he wanted ichigo to kill aizen, why hold back? Why place hope in a weak kid? Gin had to use full power to see just how strong ichigo is

Yes you are underestimate yama, DRASTICALLY. And no, he can't do that. As seen, yama's reaction is exceedingly fast. Aizen won't be able to get a fatal hit in easily. Furthermore, whether he uses KS or not, it is not easy to take someone out if they are on guard. That was shown during his fight with shunsui, hitsu, soifon, and shinji. He had to use the distraction and anger they had to take them out
[hr]

Well, in all fairness the reason gin was able to maintain that lie was because his bankai is indeed pretty damn fast. As poor as ichigo usually is as a point of comparison, I think the bit about him not being capable of perceiving the blade contracting is relevant and shows how fast the bankai indeed is(even if not as fast as gin originally lied it was). Now, every aspect if gins bankai is mean to score that 1 hit which could result in unavoidable doom. I think gin does have a small chance of actually getting the minuscule required cut to gin the poison in. Surely he would fail 90-95% of the time in a fair fight but its not like the possibility does not exist. I don't think it is possible to fight off the poison with reiatsu so getting that 1 hit would indeed spell doom for yama.
Ichigo has been really slow in both his movement speed and reaction and visual speed compared to times in SS. He did not even sense starks moving in on him, he was so slow orihime's reaction was faster than him, so slow that aizen basically move quick enough to touch him without him noticing. Again, ichigo is pretty pathetic and using him to compare individuals is not smart

En Yang Ji
November 18, 2010, 11:02 PM
The same ichigo gin stated was pathetic compared to the one in SS, you know the ichigo that hadn't fought kenpachi or even get bankai yet. Using ichigo as a measuring stick is a failed idea. Furthermore, gin was quite serious. If he wanted ichigo to kill aizen, why hold back? Why place hope in a weak kid? Gin had to use full power to see just how strong ichigo is

Yes you are underestimate yama, DRASTICALLY. And no, he can't do that. As seen, yama's reaction is exceedingly fast. Aizen won't be able to get a fatal hit in easily. Furthermore, whether he uses KS or not, it is not easy to take someone out if they are on guard. That was shown during his fight with shunsui, hitsu, soifon, and shinji. He had to use the distraction and anger they had to take them out
<hr noshade size="1">

- If Gin was being serious he was stupid. Ichigo noted that Gin would have more of an advantage if he just skewered him, than cut through those buildings. He was testing Ichigo, but he didn't take advantage of all his opportunities.

- In what way do I underestimate Yama? I think it is you that is underestimating Aizen. Yama may be fast, but that doesn't matter since Aizen can control Yama's five senses.

Nobody stated that Aizen had to take advantage of their anger or that he used ks to aid him in cutting down Shunsui, Hitsu, Soi Fong, and Shinji. It makes more sense to think Aizen didn't use an illusion to cut them down, but used their openings to cut them down. Aizen and Gin already stated that the only weakness of KS is touching the blade.

kkck
November 18, 2010, 11:04 PM
Wow, not even conceding a 5-10% chance of victory to gin lol.

Raizen
November 18, 2010, 11:37 PM
- If Gin was being serious he was stupid. Ichigo noted that Gin would have more of an advantage if he just skewered him, than cut through those buildings. He was testing Ichigo, but he didn't take advantage of all his opportunities.

- In what way do I underestimate Yama? I think it is you that is underestimating Aizen. Yama may be fast, but that doesn't matter since Aizen can control Yama's five senses.

Nobody stated that Aizen had to take advantage of their anger or that he used ks to aid him in cutting down Shunsui, Hitsu, Soi Fong, and Shinji. It makes more sense to think Aizen didn't use an illusion to cut them down, but used their openings to cut them down. Aizen and Gin already stated that the only weakness of KS is touching the blade.
1. No, he cut the buildings to trick ichigo in thinking the power of the bankai was in the length and not the speed of contrcting and expanding. Again, why would gin go easy on ichigo? If gin couldn't defeat aizen, how would someone gin is taking it easy on be able to take on aizen? THat logic makes no sense.

2. Yama already showed he can countered KS. By having kenpachi liek reflexes just as aizen attacks. Like i said, if the opponent is on guard, aizen can't take them down

3. That was my point. He used the anger he knew hitsu would have to create openings. Shinji was angered, soiofn was in WTF mode, hitsu was growing devil horns, and shunsui was trying to keep his exposure. Aizen used KS to play on hitsu's emotions and thus get their guard down. Which adds to the whole point that he can't take anyone down w/ just KS if they are prepared
[hr]

Wow, not even conceding a 5-10% chance of victory to gin lol.
No, because gin hasn't shown me anything that makes me think he stand even a chance against someone like yamamoto. Hell, yama with his fist would waste gin

conn-man
November 19, 2010, 02:57 AM
I feel like in most serious fights Yama will speed blitz and/or totally overwhelm. Gins poison will kill anyone but he has to be super serious quick draw mcgraw or Yama will just kill him.

Truu
November 19, 2010, 03:27 AM
What is this I don't even...

Yama curbstomps him with sealed zanpakuto, not even a match.

konfuzed
November 21, 2010, 11:13 PM
I think they're both strong enough offensively to annihilate the other and are both insanely fast, so it just comes down to who lands their attack first. There's even a decent chance they'd both die.

Primecut
November 25, 2010, 04:35 AM
I think they're both strong enough offensively to annihilate the other and are both insanely fast, so it just comes down to who lands their attack first. There's even a decent chance they'd both die.

Good point. We'll just have to call this one a draw then.

El Samurai Guapo
November 25, 2010, 05:18 PM
I think they're both strong enough offensively to annihilate the other and are both insanely fast, so it just comes down to who lands their attack first. There's even a decent chance they'd both die.

I think it's still leans in favor of Yamamoto, but against an ability like Gin's everyone's vulnerable. It's hard to get the drop on Gin too, because he can be attacking you from a range and retract his sword to wakizashi length instantaneously to defend himself (http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-chapter-413-page-13.html) at close range. Also, would the poison trick still work when Gin's blade is at normal length? If so then he's even deadlier because if he attacks you like this: http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-chapter-413-page-9.html one small mistake is fatal.

Random101
November 25, 2010, 05:23 PM
Unlikely. He has to leave a piece behind, which is apparently only possible thanks to the interval in which he turns the blade to ash.

Granted if he extends it real quick during one of those sequences it's the same deal though. Unless it can't be done unless it's retracting, in which case he'd have to do both again, which given he has to go into the stance for the Serial Blade may not be easy on him. Should be extremely hard to deal with regardless though. Against virtually anyone other than Yamamoto it'd probably lean things much more heavily in his favor.

Crystal Black
November 26, 2010, 10:46 AM
Gin's my favorite character but I don't see him defeating Yama in any scenario. His bankai is pretty deadly but it would be hard to hit and fool the most dangerous and experienced shinigami to date. Yama wins with shikai.

En Yang Ji
November 27, 2010, 12:05 AM
Yama is in a bad situation. Its like a human swordsman vs a gunman in the open. The swordsman can't react to a bullet. He can try to anticipate where the gunman would point the gun, but that just seems highly unlikely. The gunman can point and shoot at an specific area before the swordsman has a chance to react. Even if we assumed the swordsman can react to every movement of the gunman's hand and gun, he wouldn't be able to tell when the gunman was about to fake like he was going to shoot in one place to get the swordsman to react, than shoot in another place.

Random101
November 27, 2010, 12:23 AM
Save Gin's bankai can be reacted to. And blocked. By someone who hasn't been impressive for ages. And now we're throwing the best of the best at him? Frankly Gin's boned.

He might get lucky granted, hence it's not a 100% chance of complete destruction, but beyond that... Yeah... >>

En Yang Ji
November 27, 2010, 12:39 AM
Save Gin's bankai can be reacted to. And blocked. By someone who hasn't been impressive for ages. And now we're throwing the best of the best at him? Frankly Gin's boned.

He might get lucky granted, hence it's not a 100% chance of complete destruction, but beyond that... Yeah... >>

Ichigo didn't react to it, he anticipated it. Ichigo noted several times he couldnt react to it. Also whether or not Gin used fakes with his sword is unknown. Even Ichigo anticipating it seems to be in part Gins doing, because unless Gin made his move somewhat obvious Ichigo shouldn't have been able to anticipate it.

conn-man
November 27, 2010, 01:04 AM
Yama doesn't hesitate, no witty banter, no nothin. The way this fight will go is gin will have one shot right at the beginning to use the poison. If he doesn't do that and just uses a regular stab then he's getting fried, cut in half, ala allon, or a hole punched in him.

Random101
November 27, 2010, 03:37 AM
Ichigo didn't react to it, he anticipated it. Ichigo noted several times he couldnt react to it. Also whether or not Gin used fakes with his sword is unknown. Even Ichigo anticipating it seems to be in part Gins doing, because unless Gin made his move somewhat obvious Ichigo shouldn't have been able to anticipate it.
If he can dodge, which Gin outright noted he did, he's reacting to it. If he can block, he got his sword up in time to keep it from piercing him, in which case the blow was reacted to. Granted it might be valid that he was making his movements more obvious, goodness knows putting his suddenly shortened sword up in front of his face was an exercise in absolute stupidity if he was even trying to not make it obvious, but there's that a case of extension during his back flipping out of CQC (Which was apparently the one he dodged following the sequence of events), and indeed the one in the middle of his CQC assualt that would suggest otherwise (Though granted Ichigo actually got hit by that one).

Dancing Step however was made patently obvious I'll admit with that asinine stance of his, and we didn't exactly see what Gin did for the blocking case either. Other than that though Ichigo was pretty much having a rather easy time till he wussied out again. Throw in someone leagues above him, ala Yamamoto, and then that relatively easy time with only a few hits easily becomes a breeze with literally nothing connecting. At base.

Gin has a minuscule chance to get lucky at the right moment, provided Yamamoto's purely limited to Hand to Hand (As he has some nasty ranged drawing techniques to pull from when sealed that'll wreck Gin), but it isn't likely. Without that, Yamamoto Godstomps.

En Yang Ji
November 27, 2010, 08:34 AM
Ichigo doesn't have to be able to react to KNS to dodge it, he just has to know when Gin is about to extend it. That may be the reason he could block KNS that one time. After Ichigo dodged it he still couldn't react to it: http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-chapter-417-page-16.html

Tenacious Weezy
November 27, 2010, 08:45 AM
Didn't Ichigo get hit by it? That means in that one instant Gin could have killed him. I'm not saying Yama would lose but he has to fight a person with the most lethal Bankai (to date) and he doesn't even know that he is. He may not take it serious enough or he may try to pull off the trick he did with Aizen so he could trap or disarm Gin (Bad idea!). Yama is the strongest (dumbest) Shinigami we've seen so far and even in his Shikai he had the potential power to take out Aizen all of the Gotei 13 and Vizards and Kankura Town at once. Not bad. I vote Yama wins or they both die.

Random101
November 27, 2010, 12:51 PM
Ichigo doesn't have to be able to react to KNS to dodge it, he just has to know when Gin is about to extend it. That may be the reason he could block KNS that one time. After Ichigo dodged it he still couldn't react to it: http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-chapter-417-page-16.html
Couldn't react? He apparently got his mask out in time to not become paste. He's reacting just fine, realizing what's coming before it even is sent his way.

Of course I do agree with your argument about Gin making it obvious in this particular case, especially with that stance and not straight up starting with Serial Blade. The problem is we know he can do so even with considerably less obvious usages, albeit less dangerous ones as well.

Rainl
November 29, 2010, 02:46 PM
Yamamoto vs Gin. Why did this thread last 4 pages? Someone, tell me why Gin doesn't get speed-blitzed immediately? His sword is fast(but even Ichigo could react to it), yes, but I don't recall him demonstrating superb movement speed himself. Yamamoto on the other hand can casually blitz Shunsui who was keeping up with one of the faster characters in Bleach.

Raizen
November 29, 2010, 02:51 PM
Yamamoto vs Gin. Why did this thread last 4 pages? Someone, tell me why Gin doesn't get speed-blitzed immediately? His sword is fast, yes, but I don't recall him demonstrating superb movement speed himself. Yamamoto on the other hand can casually blitz Shunsui who was keeping up with one of the faster characters in Bleach.

This thread. Is. A. Joke.
Due to huge underestimation of the strongest shinigami Yamamoto and sever overestimation of gin (for some odd reason)

Primecut
November 29, 2010, 08:38 PM
It doesn't matter how much hype Yama has. One hit with Gin's bankai and Yama is poached. Yama was tagged by Wonderweis. Wonderweis is not 500 times faster than the speed of sound. Do the math, Gin tags him once and takes home the prize.

Jackk
November 29, 2010, 09:31 PM
It doesn't matter how much hype Yama has. One hit with Gin's bankai and Yama is poached. Yama was tagged by Wonderweis. Wonderweis is not 500 times faster than the speed of sound. Do the math, Gin tags him once and takes home the prize.

Neither is Gin's sword. Go back and read the manga again.

Granted Gin could technically "kill" Yama if he can actually stab him and leave a piece of his blade inside Yama so that the dust/poison in it can do the job and kill Yama. Problem is: How is Gin going to accomplish that against Yama?

Yama is too powerful for Gin.

Truu
November 30, 2010, 06:41 AM
It doesn't matter how much hype Yama has. One hit with Gin's bankai and Yama is poached. Yama was tagged by Wonderweis. Wonderweis is not 500 times faster than the speed of sound. Do the math, Gin tags him once and takes home the prize.

IF he can able to poke him.

Too bad, lil' Gin got burned to hell before he can say the word, bankai. :D

BaddAzzKenpachi74
November 30, 2010, 02:50 PM
IF he can able to poke him.

Too bad, lil' Gin got burned to hell before he can say the word, bankai. :D
this would so be the case ^^^:D

Primecut
November 30, 2010, 07:00 PM
Neither is Gin's sword. Go back and read the manga again.

Granted Gin could technically "kill" Yama if he can actually stab him and leave a piece of his blade inside Yama so that the dust/poison in it can do the job and kill Yama. Problem is: How is Gin going to accomplish that against Yama?

Yama is too powerful for Gin.

Aizen evaded Yama's attacks but couldnt evade the Mach 500 sword of Gin's. This leads me to believe that the sword is much faster than Yama. And if Yama is slower than the blade he gets skewered and poisoned. A clear win for Gin despite how much Yama flexes his flame muscles in this battle.

Jackk
November 30, 2010, 07:21 PM
Aizen evaded Yama's attacks but couldnt evade the Mach 500 sword of Gin's. This leads me to believe that the sword is much faster than Yama. And if Yama is slower than the blade he gets skewered and poisoned. A clear win for Gin despite how much Yama flexes his flame muscles in this battle.

^ That's so massively incorrect on so many levels.

Quit trolling seriously.

Primecut
November 30, 2010, 08:13 PM
^ That's so massively incorrect on so many levels.

Quit trolling seriously.

Who or what has been shown to move faster than Gin's bankai? Everything he has aimed it at has been tagged, even Ichigo was using prediction to block it and he wasnt even able to follow it contracting and expanding. Yama? The guy got grabbed by Wonderweis who is far below Mach 500. If Wonderweis can get both of Yama's arms what makes you think Gin's bankai which is much faster than Wonderweis can't make contact with Yama? Are you making the claim that Wonderweis is faster than Gin's bankai? You'd need scans to prove that if you are. Currently Gin has the fastest sword blitz in the show, unfortunate for Yama I know...

The Newbie.
November 30, 2010, 09:06 PM
To keep it simple, if Gin is within Yama's range (He outran both Kyorouku and Juushiro, but then again, WonderWaiss is faster than those two and maybe as fast as Yama) he is dead. The only chance is if Gin happens to be several miles away, but the details of this battle clearly say "Fake Karakura", so Yama could be next to Gin in an instant.

The only scenario where Gin could possibly kill Yama would be if Gin sneaked into the G13, wore Urahara's coat and shot Yama across half of the city, in the middle of the weekly tea party with Unohana, Zasakibe and Renji.

Raizen
December 01, 2010, 02:35 PM
To keep it simple, if Gin is within Yama's range (He outran both Kyorouku and Juushiro, but then again, WonderWaiss is faster than those two and maybe as fast as Yama) he is dead. The only chance is if Gin happens to be several miles away, but the details of this battle clearly say "Fake Karakura", so Yama could be next to Gin in an instant.

The only scenario where Gin could possibly kill Yama would be if Gin sneaked into the G13, wore Urahara's coat and shot Yama across half of the city, in the middle of the weekly tea party with Unohana, Zasakibe and Renji.
Even then, yama will probably catch his blade with one hand while sipping tea with the other

Primecut
December 03, 2010, 07:47 PM
How come everyone keeps underrating Gin and overrating Yama. I realize Gin is outvoted here but that's exactly why he'll win. Yama will be too overconfident that he is going to win. He won't expect the kind of speed and lethality that Gin can deal out with that bankai'd Shinso. Even God mode Aizen couldnt evade it so how can Yama? Aizen was a transcendental being when he was felled by Gin because Gin's blade is called something like the "the lance of God slaying". It seems the stronger his opponent, the more likely they will fall to that sword.

CitrusHour
December 03, 2010, 07:54 PM
I'd see it as:

Gin stabs Yama quickly, Yama annhilates Gin, poison kills off Yama.

THAT way EVERYBODY loses!!!

Also the original question is bugging me, inner grammar-nazi or something.

"Too hard to tell", not "To hard too tell"

Primecut
December 03, 2010, 07:59 PM
I'd see it as:

Gin stabs Yama quickly, Yama annhilates Gin, poison kills off Yama.

THAT way EVERYBODY loses!!!

Also the original question is bugging me, inner grammar-nazi or something.

"Too hard to tell", not "To hard too tell"

I'm willing to call this fight a draw also. I mean deep down I know Gin could take the old man out but I guess the old guy could suicide and take Gin with him. I'd suspect Yama has his own doubts about beating Gin just like he had doubts about being able to beat Aizen. He probably would just not risk losing to Gin and do his nuclear explosion type attack. That's the only bad thing about Yama, he won't fight fair if he knows he might lose.