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Waking_Dreamer
November 17, 2010, 04:18 PM
So I may be opening a can of worms here but lets see.

Is the recent bankai Ichigo weaker than any of the captains? Or does Vizard Ichigo rip apart captains like Byakuya?

I say the first fight with Byakuya was a fight of what it is to have bankai and therefore limited to bankai vs bankai. But like Ikkaku and Kenpachi, Byakuya has shown to have more in his aresenal - Cicada, kido, Gokei etc.

So lets have them do a rematch in HM - no bones cracking Ichigo, no oops so youre bankai is hyper-speed combat Byakuya. Everything is laid out on the table and no one is underestimating anyone.

What happens?

Scenario 1: Bankai Ichigo - the one that cut base Ulquiorra.

Scenario 2: Vizard Ichigo - the one that overpowered Ulquiorra base and then fought Ulquiorra R1.

Location: On top of the HM

IC: Ichigo - Resolved.
- Byakuya - aint f*ckin' around either.

BaddAzzKenpachi74
November 17, 2010, 04:22 PM
if by "recent" you mean the Ichigo that fought and defeated Aizen then Byakuya gets pwned pretty damn hard lol

Waking_Dreamer
November 17, 2010, 04:25 PM
if by "recent" you mean the Ichigo that fought and defeated Aizen then Byakuya gets pwned pretty damn hard lol

Well if you read the scenario you'll get the answer, "recent" as in not SS bankai Ichigo more like.

BaddAzzKenpachi74
November 17, 2010, 05:04 PM
Well if you read the scenario you'll get the answer, "recent" as in not SS bankai Ichigo more like.

we'll in that case i'd have to say Byakuya.;)
and you really should have added a pole to this topic:p

El Samurai Guapo
November 17, 2010, 05:24 PM
If Byakuya "aint f*ckin' around" as you say, he should take scenario 1 pretty easily. Scenario 2 would be a tough call because hollowfication turns bankai Ichigo into SSj Bankai Ichigo. After the fight with Grimmjow he was able to keep the mask on for quite some time as well. Still Byakuya has things like bakudou (to either bind Ichigo or block his GTs with #81 danku) and goukei. Also I assume that he wouldn't be reluctant to use senkei properly here either.

I guess I would lean slightly towards Byakuya for scenario 2 as well, though it could go either way. As a side note, I think hollow masks become most productive when used together with bankai. As we saw with Ichigo, the inner hollow and zanpakutou are linked, and so are their powers. As such, it's probably not possible to bring out the full potential of a vaizard's inner hollow (and thus their hollow mask) without a full release of shinigami powers (AKA bankai) as well. In other words, I think we've yet to see how destructive a bankai + mask really can be since we've yet to see a real captain level shinigami do it.

Waking_Dreamer
November 17, 2010, 05:55 PM
we'll in that case i'd have to say Byakuya.;)
and you really should have added a pole to this topic:p

Poll added.

and heres a quote for someone who thinks Vizard Icihgo would outclass Byakuya:


Ichigo would have owned Byakuya the moment he activate his bankai by choping his head off. But Ichi (like Byakuya) decided to show off. Its there caracter and it appies in a fight.

Now Ichi going all out with Bankai would beat Ken and Bya in the first second (as he could do it to Byakuya). Anything that comes after this are caracter morals/caracteristics.
Also i whant to add that Ichigo with bankai on could probably dodge all the Kido that Byakuya would trow at him. Byakuya was barely able to hold him at a distance with bankai.
Keep in mind that Ichi with the mask on (hollow) would have rippet him in half and this is his power to so its valid.

Now 1 thing is for sure. There is no way Ichigo would be that much lower then Byakuya. Now hollow Ichi (with the mask on but control over it) is defenetly above him. Byakuya was completly useless vs Hollow Ichi in that fight.

Full Hollow Ichigo is above even the commander. i realy don't understant why people ignore that version of Ichigo, he was awsome and owned Ulquiorra.

BaddAzzKenpachi74
November 17, 2010, 08:02 PM
Poll added.

and heres a quote for someone who thinks Vizard Icihgo would outclass Byakuya:

"Full Hollow Ichigo is above even the commander. i realy don't understant why people ignore that version of Ichigo, he was awsome and owned Ulquiorra".


.....................?
where this this notion come from?
because he pwned the "4TH" ESPADA?
full hollow Ichigo hasn't shown anything to put him over Yama while Yama on the other hand has shown himself to be the strongest character "besides Houg Aizen and Zangestsu Ichigo;)"

daman246
November 17, 2010, 09:34 PM
byakura scenario 1 ichigo 2

Random101
November 17, 2010, 10:19 PM
Full Hollow Ichigo, while potent, is a blatant moron. All it takes is cutting the horn to knock him out of it too, which doesn't seem particularly hard. It'll be rough going for some of the mid level captains, but it's not impossible. Higher level ones, particularly Yamamoto, have it way easier. That Ichinator is prone to not moving for stretches of time doesn't exactly help.

That being said, Byakuya both scenarios. He could probably take it if he keeps to base bankai and uses it wisely, with Goukei at a key moment. Ichigo's lack of a significant amount of his speed helps immensely, though he compensates by now being able to fling Getsuugas. However if Byakuya keeps moving and saves enough of the petals for defense, he's not in that bad a position.

conn-man
November 18, 2010, 12:03 AM
I don't know, the ichigo that fought grimmjow and ulquiorra was using a totally different fighting style. Ichigo has getsuga versatility at this point, the cresent, wrapping it around the sword for big strikes, and just unloading those huge getsuga sprays that are as big as a cero. Byakuya would have to be very defensive against all that.

The mask will make a huge difference to. We've seen what a full on kageyoshi blast does to ichigo and it wasn't enough to stop him so the mask should provide some nice protection from even gokei.

Byakuya has his kido options and they could shut ichigo down. Everyone already knows about that though.

This is hard since they are both my fav characters. It's byakuyas vast array of options vs ichigos mask boosted power.

Takahashi
November 18, 2010, 04:13 AM
Scenario 1 goes to Byakuya pretty easily.

Scenario 2 would be tougher, but I'd still say Byakuya comes out on top purely because of his versatility. Hollow Ichigo has some more power, but he's far from learning any new tricks. If Byakuya is throwing out Rikojokoro's, assassin techniques, and not underestimating Ichigo, I'd bet on Byakuya.

And if Byakuya isn't fucking around, does that mean that he can use all 1000 swords of his Senkei ?(no kill you by my hand bs) then it's an easy win.

Waking_Dreamer
November 18, 2010, 06:47 AM
The mask will make a huge difference to. We've seen what a full on kageyoshi blast does to ichigo and it wasn't enough to stop him so the mask should provide some nice protection from even gokei.

With VizIchigo's tanking feats I would say that he could tank at least one Gokei with minimum damage.


And if Byakuya isn't fucking around, does that mean that he can use all 1000 swords of his Senkei ?(no kill you by my hand bs) then it's an easy win.

Well if we keep it to what hes shown in the manga he wouldnt use all the swords but he would use more than 2, not to mention any type of kido/cicada combination weve seen - inside senkei (instead of him spending half the time talking about how inferior his opponent is).

Blast spell 33: (Does it look as powerful as shikai GT?)
http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-chapter-142-page-4.html
http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-chapter-142-page-5.html

Binding spell 61:
http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-chapter-142-page-10.html

Keep it to 13 swords at one time:
http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-chapter-143-page-9.html

Takahashi
November 18, 2010, 02:55 PM
Well if we keep it to what hes shown in the manga he wouldnt use all the swords but he would use more than 2, not to mention any type of kido/cicada combination weve seen - inside senkei (instead of him spending half the time talking about how inferior his opponent is).

Sounds good.


Blast spell 33: (Does it look as powerful as shikai GT?)
http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-chapter-142-page-4.html
http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-chapter-142-page-5.html

I actually don't remember it being that big of an explosion :blink


Binding spell 61:
http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-chapter-142-page-10.html

Considering no one has ever dodged this Kido, and no one has ever immediately broken out of it, this is a big factor to me.


Keep it to 13 swords at one time:
http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-chapter-143-page-9.html

Damn I forgot about that! Byakuya takes it, no question.

El Samurai Guapo
November 18, 2010, 04:11 PM
Byakuya went harder on Renji than he did to Ichigo.

Xerneas
November 18, 2010, 04:13 PM
Well the way I see it is that all the Ichigo's of HM (minus the monster) are weaker than the Ichigo at the end of SS. Its not entirely baseless cause Aizen stated Visored Ichigo should have been far stronger than what he was displaying. Gin also said Ichigo was scarier in SS and didn't think much at all of his Visored mask boost.

My logic is that Ichigo working fully with Zangetsu (Shinigami side only) >>> Ogihci not lending full power and working against them both. This plays right into Kubo's main theme of anything Shinigami > Hollow. His power only started to fluctuate wildly after the Hollow made its presence felt. This logic explains the apparent "mess" that was going on between Byakuya/Kenpachi/Ichigo and Zommari/Nnoitra/Grimmjow. Kubo didn't mess up the powerlevels, he neglected explaining precisely what was happening to Ichigo and left it all up to the fans to work out.

The only powerlevels he messed up imo was that of VLs. He overhyped them and couldn't live up to his promises cause it meant there would be no excuse for his precious goodies to live. Even Aizen got trolled by it cause he, like us, genuinely expected the VL Espada to do the business.

So I voted Byakuya wins both scenarios. Visored Ichigo made both Grimmjow and R1 Ulquiorra look far better than they actually were. Resolve won't help him in this fight cause Byakuya already seen that and his Ban Kai. His biggest advantage in the SS fight was the element of surprise combined with Byakuya's arrogance. Both those will be absent here so he's going down.

Broken_Wing
November 18, 2010, 04:23 PM
Scenario 2 is tough, both have real potential to take out each other.

Id say MaskIchigo could tank Gokei with minimum damage, while full powered GT would end Byakuya if he tried to tank it like Ulquiorra.

Ofc, Byakuya's well-rounded nature gives him options to create layers of defense - petal walls, Danku, kido barrier etc.

Takahashi
November 18, 2010, 08:55 PM
Scenario 2 is tough, both have real potential to take out each other.

Id say MaskIchigo could tank Gokei with minimum damage, while full powered GT would end Byakuya if he tried to tank it like Ulquiorra.

Ofc, Byakuya's well-rounded nature gives him options to create layers of defense - petal walls, Danku, kido barrier etc.

I don't recall ever seeing a life threatening one shot GT (FGT doesn't count :darn). I've never seen GT as all that powerful, although keeping it on his blade to swing with more power is pretty cool. Either way, I don't see either fight being won in a single shot, I'm confident in Byakuya's ability to block any GT's that come his way, and if not, he'll still be fully capable of fighting.

Where exactly do people get the idea that Ichigo is a tank btw? Gokei is in no way an insta-kill (hell, it didn't finish off Zommari) but to say he'd take minimum damage if he were actually hit by it is kind of ridiculous. There's a reason Ichigo spent the whole time dodging and batting the petals away, it's cause they're dangerous, and if he were to get hit full force by them from all angles, it's gonna hurt.

I'd say that the Assassin Techniques and Kido give Byakuya a serious edge. Ichigo has no surprises, Byakuya's got an arsenal that pretty much no one else has.

-A balanced Bankai between attack and defense
-Mid to High level Kido with no incantation, which implies that the higher up ones are still possible with incantations
-Assassin techniques that Ichigo will never see coming (He's never fought Soi Fon and Yoroichi after all)


And now stated by the topic creator, Byakuya can have 13 swords attacking in Senkei, and I think we all saw how just ONE sword nearly killed Ichigo.

Jackk
November 18, 2010, 11:02 PM
And now stated by the topic creator, Byakuya can have 13 swords attacking in Senkei, and I think we all saw how just ONE sword nearly killed Ichigo.

Well, in all fairness, Ichigo was slower at that point. His body could not resist his own pressure from Bankai, due to Ichigo's inexperience. Remember that Ichigo thought that Byakuya had gotten faster, but Byakuya stated that he had not gotten faster; It was Ichigo who was getting slower. Then Ichigo's hollow commented on Ichigo's inexperience with his own Bankai etc.

Also, it was stated by the topic creator that there will be "no bones cracking Ichigo" ...as in: no Ichigo slowing down inside Byakuya's senkei due to Bankai inexperience cracking his bones/body etc.

Since that's that case, Ichigo will not be as easy to catch.

Ichigo also has his resolve in this fight, as stated by the OP.

Granted Byakuya does have a lot going for him, particularly since he "aint f*ckin' around either", as stated by the OP. And Byakuya has a lot of versatility.

I think it would be close. It could go either way. Although I think I would give the edge to Bankai Masked Ichigo in the second scenario.

Raizen
November 18, 2010, 11:20 PM
I am one who believes the ichigo in HM pales in comparison to the ichigo at teh end of SS. His power levels dropped drastically. This was noted not only by Gin but also by Aizen. I don't see grimjow beating byakuya and neither do i see ulqui being capable.

Byakuya is a smart and skillful fighter. In the fight in SS, he was clearly battling his own inner demons about whether to go with the promise he made with his parents or to his late wife. That clearly impacted his fight. In this fight, he won't underestimate ichigo nor will he hold back. That means given the chance, he will shoot ichigo in the heart with byakurai instead of just his shoulder as seen here
http://www.mangafox.com/manga/bleach/v19/c165/12.html

Byakuya is very powerful. He has many kido and bakudo he can use to mess up ichigo. Ichigo may be fast, but he only caught byakuya by surprise because byakuya did not expect him to be that fast. With that knowledge now, byakuya would be able to counter that speed the same way he countered zomari.

I see byakuya winning both scenarios

conn-man
November 18, 2010, 11:31 PM
@takahashi
ichigo IS a tank, its the standard for all shounen heroes, they just don't quit. What we are mostly saying though is that the mask is the shield, we've gotten plenty of evidence to support that.

And no, ichigo has never layed anyone down with a getsuga, he mostly has to win fights with stabs and slashes. In support of byakuya, he got sandwiched between two hollow'd getsugas and could still fight. So getsuga options are mostly for wearing opponents down, but I think ichigos biggest getsuga blasts(like the one that cut aizen) will be something to watch our for.

Broken_Wing
November 18, 2010, 11:38 PM
I don't recall ever seeing a life threatening one shot GT (FGT doesn't count :darn). I've never seen GT as all that powerful,

Well I think thats kind of flawed, thats like saying Hitsugaya's ice cant do anything to captain-class shinigami fighters because he couldnt freeze any of the arrancar substantially. The difference between hierro and shinigami is like armoured vehicles compared to non-armoured vehicles.

Just because its not effective against arrancar, doesnt mean shinigami would just brush it off as well.

Shikai Ichigo: First GT -
http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-chapter-161-page-4.html

It cut Byakuya's arm (shallow) even though it was aimed foot+ away from him.
http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-chapter-161-page-7.html

Bankai Icigo: Noob GT: It was able to cut and scar Grimmjaw hierro who could hold the blade bare-handed.
http://www.mangafox.com/manga/bleach/v24/c211/16.html

The use of mask only makes it stronger. The mastery of the mask and the location of HM makes it even more stronger.


Where exactly do people get the idea that Ichigo is a tank btw? Gokei is in no way an insta-kill (hell, it didn't finish off Zommari) but to say he'd take minimum damage if he were actually hit by it is kind of ridiculous. There's a reason Ichigo spent the whole time dodging and batting the petals away, it's cause they're dangerous, and if he were to get hit full force by them from all angles, it's gonna hurt.

Im talking about Mask Ichigo here. Base Bankai Ichigo is about the only bankai besides maybe Hitsugaya who increases tanking potential. Put on the Mask and he becomes SSJ Bankai Ichigo (as already mentioned) and put him in HM he becomes even more durable.

1 dart
http://www.mangafox.com/manga/bleach/v32/c283/4.html

5 darts - He truly walked it off:
http://www.mangafox.com/manga/bleach/v32/c282/20.html
http://www.mangafox.com/manga/bleach/v32/c282/21.html

Is gokei more destructive than 5 darts? They look like they explode on impact! Ichigo's shear reiatsu stopped all 5 from exploding and going no further than the top of his flesh.



Either way, I don't see either fight being won in a single shot, I'm confident in Byakuya's ability to block any GT's that come his way, and if not, he'll still be fully capable of fighting.

The limits to Ichigo tanking was beneath Cero Ocurus where he just survived, but I dont think Byakuyas petals can replicate that type of damage. Also, ask yourself can Byakuya can survive Cero Ocurus by shear tanking? Sure Ulquiorra pissed on Full-Power GT but can Byakuya do the same again just by tanking - remember how Shikai GT already bled him by just being near him?


-Assassin techniques that Ichigo will never see coming (He's never fought Soi Fon and Yoroichi after all)

Im not saying that Ichigo will counter every assassin technique but he isnt defenseless either.
http://www.mangafox.com/manga/bleach/v40/c345/16.html

The blade was that far from his neck which was travelling to go straight though - but he still managed top defend himself.

Raizen
November 19, 2010, 12:25 AM
^^ You are comparing the GT ichigo used in SS compared to the one in HM. Ichigo's powers fluctuated a lot between the time frame.

Those darts don't look very impressive to me. Gokei may not be able to bring ichigo down, but it will hurt him quite a lot. Note that that attack left zomari immobilized.

Byakuya took on 2 black GT from HOLLOW ichigo. So yea, i say byakuya is quite durable.

Broken_Wing
November 19, 2010, 12:49 AM
^^ You are comparing the GT ichigo used in SS compared to the one in HM. Ichigo's powers fluctuated a lot between the time frame.

Those darts don't look very impressive to me. Gokei may not be able to bring ichigo down, but it will hurt him quite a lot. Note that that attack left zomari immobilized.

Byakuya took on 2 black GT from HOLLOW ichigo. So yea, i say byakuya is quite durable.

Despite fluctuations, I cant really come to say that this:
http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-chapter-359-page-17.html
http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-chapter-359-page-19.html

from an experienced, determined, HM boosted, VIZARD Ichigo is LESS POWERFUL than the FIRST SHIKAI GT ever thrown.

Also, hollow Ichigo in SS wasnt even throwing GT as strong as the ones against Ulquiorra. I dont think there was a charge up like the ones from VizIchigo, and is more comparable to the quick GT bankai Ichigo threw at Gin in FKT.

http://www.mangafox.com/manga/bleach/v45/c399/18.html
http://www.mangafox.com/manga/bleach/v45/c399/19.html

How much damage would Zommari take from 5 Grimmjow darts at the same time? More or less than Gokei?

In essence whats stronger VizIchigo Charged GT or Gokei? Does Gokei hurt VizIchigo more than Vizard GT hurt Byakuya?

conn-man
November 19, 2010, 01:38 AM
Yes, ichigo got stronger with his mask, his physical and spiritual strength where way stronger than in SS. And seriously people, ichigo did not get slower than he was in SS. The way I've always interpreted it is that he uses the bankais strength/speed increase differently since his fighting style changed when his personality went from driven to afraid.

I still see this fight going either way ichigo is overall stronger than he was in their first fight but byakuya had way more that he could use that he held back previously that would be very effective. I also like to think that byakuya didn't fight ichigo in the most dominant, overwhelming style as he could have. It seemed like their fight had a more competitive theme.

Edit: byakuya takes scenario 1 but im a believer that ichigo with his mask is a proper opponent for most of the captains and espada.

Waking_Dreamer
November 19, 2010, 03:51 AM
The poll results are pretty close, I guess this is a fundemntal difference of opinions in power levels stemming from Ichigo's preformances.

Im curious, what do people think about the power of the following attacks? How would you rank them from most destructive to least?

Gokei
http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-chapter-302-page-3.html
http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-chapter-302-page-4.html

Grimmjow Darts x5
http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-chapter-283-page-4.html

Charged Vizard GT
http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-chapter-359-page-17.html
http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-chapter-359-page-18.html
http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-chapter-359-page-19.html

Raizen
November 19, 2010, 11:28 AM
Despite fluctuations, I cant really come to say that this:
http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-chapter-359-page-17.html
http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-chapter-359-page-19.html

from an experienced, determined, HM boosted, VIZARD Ichigo is LESS POWERFUL than the FIRST SHIKAI GT ever thrown.

Also, hollow Ichigo in SS wasnt even throwing GT as strong as the ones against Ulquiorra. I dont think there was a charge up like the ones from VizIchigo, and is more comparable to the quick GT bankai Ichigo threw at Gin in FKT.

http://www.mangafox.com/manga/bleach/v45/c399/18.html
http://www.mangafox.com/manga/bleach/v45/c399/19.html

How much damage would Zommari take from 5 Grimmjow darts at the same time? More or less than Gokei?

In essence whats stronger VizIchigo Charged GT or Gokei? Does Gokei hurt VizIchigo more than Vizard GT hurt Byakuya?
Thing is, measuring ichigo's strength is really quite difficult. But we have been told on more than one occasion, that his strength during HM paled in comparison to his strength in SS. In SS, gin only had a swift encounter w/ ichigo in shikai (b4 ichi fought kenpachi and gained bankai against byakuya). Yet, during their fight in FKT, gin noted ichigo was pathetic to his state in SS. So gin saw that ichigo was less that what he was when gin fought ichigo in shikai at the beginning of SS. That is quite a power difference.

Can u say for a fact that the GT fired by hollow mode ichi in SS was not as strong? I would say its much stronger. Black GT was originally hollow ichigo's attack. The hollow is also more powerful and adept than ichi even if he uses his mask. Ichi is just using an imitation.

I can't compare the darts to gokei, and neither can you. Byakuya's senbonzakura slices and cuts at you continuously while the dart is one focused attack. I've seen byakuya use kido more powerful than grimjow's claws. So i don't see it as destructive.

Byakuya already proved he can take GTs and still fight. And these were GT from the hollow himself, not ichigo or imitation hollow ichigo with mask, but the TRUE hollow. Ichigo may not be taken out w/ gokei, but he will be quite injured. If byakuya is serious as the OP stated, he will continue to attack ichigo w/ barrage of both SZ and kido
[hr]

The poll results are pretty close, I guess this is a fundemntal difference of opinions in power levels stemming from Ichigo's preformances.

Im curious, what do people think about the power of the following attacks? How would you rank them from most destructive to least?

Gokei
http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-chapter-302-page-3.html
http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-chapter-302-page-4.html

Grimmjow Darts x5
http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-chapter-283-page-4.html

Charged Vizard GT
http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-chapter-359-page-17.html
http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-chapter-359-page-18.html
http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-chapter-359-page-19.html
The attack from gokei to me was very big and powerful. Zomarri had to hide within his released hierro shell to survive. Even then, he was still damage to the point where he was immbolized.

Ichigo's charged GT to me is more size than power. Unlike GT from ichigo's hollow which was more focused and powerful. Just b/c the attack is bigger does not mean it is more powerful. It is about the concentration of the energy within it.

Grimjow's claws aren't impressive at all to me. Hell, chad can cause that level of damage to the monument and chad is pathetic.

If I were to rate the attacks, grimjow would definitely would be last. And i would Gokei is more powerful than GT. So
1. Gokei
2. GT
3. Grimjow's claws

Broken_Wing
November 19, 2010, 04:46 PM
Thing is, measuring ichigo's strength is really quite difficult. But we have been told on more than one occasion, that his strength during HM paled in comparison to his strength in SS. In SS, gin only had a swift encounter w/ ichigo in shikai (b4 ichi fought kenpachi and gained bankai against byakuya). Yet, during their fight in FKT, gin noted ichigo was pathetic to his state in SS. So gin saw that ichigo was less that what he was when gin fought ichigo in shikai at the beginning of SS. That is quite a power difference.

You take things to literal, are you actually bringing in the notion that Shikai Ichigo before fighting Ikkaku is superior to bankai Ichigo in FKT?

I know many people think bankia Ichigo in the arrancar arc was piss-poor but no way are people going to claim hes weaker than shikai Ichigo or to your extent weaker than pre-Ikkaku shikai Ichigo.

Gin was messing with his head, and pointing out how he actually has to get his head in the game and not shake in the kness against Aizen.


Can u say for a fact that the GT fired by hollow mode ichi in SS was not as strong? I would say its much stronger. Black GT was originally hollow ichigo's attack. The hollow is also more powerful and adept than ichi even if he uses his mask. Ichi is just using an imitation.

Like mine yours is an opinion. I mean didnt Ichigo have to beat Hollow Ichigo into submission to gain the free-use of GT, also at the time of Ulquiorra even though he wasnt the original creator of the technique youd think using it in so many life or death battles, hes obtained some sort of mastery over it that surpasses the power of hollow ichigo at the time who only ever used it twice.

http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-chapter-231-page-15.html
http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-chapter-232-page-12.html

Hollow Ichigo didnt even mention the name against Byakuya.


already proved he can take GTs and still fight. And these were GT from the hollow himself, not ichigo or imitation hollow ichigo with mask, but the TRUE hollow.

I agree not all GTs aernt the same but its still opinion, that Hollow Ichi's GT are more intense in the ss arc.

My Opinion:
HM VizIchi GT > VizIchi GT > BankaiIchi GT>= Un-Named HollowIchi GT.

Why? Because Byakuya who doesnt have passive Hierro and was already slashed across the front, against two of Hollow GT made his head bleed and his hair ornament crumble. Not saying Byakuya is weak, in fact his heer reiatsu made him take those GTs and still fight.

BUT STILL

A 100% health Grimmjaw with hierro was physically scarred by bankai Ichigo's named-GT.

http://www.mangafox.com/manga/bleach/v24/c211/16.html

Again that GT pales to what Viz GT did to an aware Grimmjaw in the second fight,

http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-chapter-232-page-12.html

Which I believe pales to the one being used in this battle.

Raizen
November 19, 2010, 05:05 PM
You take things to literal, are you actually bringing in the notion that Shikai Ichigo before fighting Ikkaku is superior to bankai Ichigo in FKT?

I know many people think bankia Ichigo in the arrancar arc was piss-poor but no way are people going to claim hes weaker than shikai Ichigo or to your extent weaker than pre-Ikkaku shikai Ichigo.

Gin was messing with his head, and pointing out how he actually has to get his head in the game and not shake in the kness against Aizen.



Like mine yours is an opinion. I mean didnt Ichigo have to beat Hollow Ichigo into submission to gain the free-use of GT, also at the time of Ulquiorra even though he wasnt the original creator of the technique youd think using it in so many life or death battles, hes obtained some sort of mastery over it that surpasses the power of hollow ichigo at the time who only ever used it twice.

http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-chapter-231-page-15.html
http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-chapter-232-page-12.html

Hollow Ichigo didnt even mention the name against Byakuya.



I agree not all GTs aernt the same but its still opinion, that Hollow Ichi's GT are more intense in the ss arc.

My Opinion:
HM VizIchi GT > VizIchi GT > BankaiIchi GT>= Un-Named HollowIchi GT.

Why? Because Byakuya who doesnt have passive Hierro and was already slashed across the front, against two of Hollow GT made his head bleed and his hair ornament crumble. Not saying Byakuya is weak, in fact his heer reiatsu made him take those GTs and still fight.

BUT STILL

A 100% health Grimmjaw with hierro was physically scarred by bankai Ichigo's named-GT.

http://www.mangafox.com/manga/bleach/v24/c211/16.html

Again that GT pales to what Viz GT did to an aware Grimmjaw in the second fight,

http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-chapter-232-page-12.html

Which I believe pales to the one being used in this battle.
What i am saying is that there is something that makes ichigo weaker now then back then. It doesn't have to be overall SP or power, it could the way he can focus hiis power or be determined, etc

He can use it as many times as he want, I firmly believe his use of it pales to the use of hollow ichigo.
I believe u are in the notion that hollow ichi did not teach ichigo the black GT. But in later chapters, he said something like "you think u can beat me with the attack that I first used" or something like that. Don't have time to look for the chapter now

You are under the impression that just because byakuya tanked those hits that means those GT must be weaker. Byakuya to me is much stronger than grimjow. In HM, ichigo mastery over his mask may provide him with a more dense reiatsu, but it does not equate to him being stronger or his attacks being stronger.

Just because an attack is big does not mean it is more powerful than a smaller form. It is about the concentration of the technique rather then the volume

Broken_Wing
November 19, 2010, 05:21 PM
^ Byakuya may have more spiritual power than Grimmjow but Physically Grimmjaw is superior and definetly more stronger than Byakuya at the point in time when he received those GTs.

Therefore, more damage to Grimmjow means more power in the GT he faced.


He can use it as many times as he want, I firmly believe his use of it pales to the use of hollow ichigo

HollowIchigo could have created every form of GT his imagination desires - still, the GT in SS was NOT stronger than the VizIchi GT against Ulquiorra IMO.

How do you want this to make sense? HollowIchi didnt use his Full-Power GT against Byakuya....

Raizen
November 19, 2010, 05:27 PM
^ Byakuya may have more spiritual power than Grimmjow but Physically Grimmjaw is superior and definetly more stronger than Byakuya at the point in time when he received those GTs.

Therefore, more damage to Grimmjow means more power in the GT he faced.



HollowIchigo could have created every form of GT his imagination desires - still, the GT in SS was NOT stronger than the VizIchi GT against Ulquiorra IMO.

How do you want this to make sense? HollowIchi didnt use his Full-Power GT against Byakuya....
How can byakuya have more SP then grimjow and yet grimjow be superior to him? That is a contradiction.

You do understand that there is a difference between actual hollow ichigo and ichigo w/ mask using hollow powers right? The latter is nothing but an imitation. Imitation can never be as effective as the real one. And i finally get u wanted to say able the hollow saying the name. He shouldn't have to since he created it

Broken_Wing
November 19, 2010, 05:33 PM
How can byakuya have more SP then grimjow and yet grimjow be superior to him? That is a contradiction.

Nope, I said physically superior mate.

Hierro helps him out and the fact that Byakuya was slashed and expended a lot of his reatsu fighting Ichigo before taking those GTs which supports that a 100% health Grimmjow was more tank worthy than Byakuya at that time.


You do understand that there is a difference between actual hollow ichigo and ichigo w/ mask using hollow powers right? The latter is nothing but an imitation. Imitation can never be as effective as the real one. And i finally get u wanted to say able the hollow saying the name. He shouldn't have to since he created it

He doesnt have to say it, but its less powerful than saying it. FACT.

Primecut
November 19, 2010, 05:42 PM
Nope, I said physically superior mate.

Hierro helps him out and the fact that Byakuya was slashed and expended a lot of his reatsu fighting Ichigo before taking those GTs which supports that a 100% health Grimmjow was more tank worthy than Byakuya at that time.



He doesnt have to say it, but its less powerful than saying it. FACT.

Ya know Broken Wing, I gotta agree that Grimmjow is hardier and tanks it better than Byakuya. Come to think of it, Grimmjow grabbed Ichigo's bankai blade and tossed him like a joker while Byakuya's hand was all cut up when he tried to replicate the same feat. Theres also no indication that Byakuya has less spiritual pressure than Grimmjow. Let's face it, when Rukia first saw Grimmjow she was crapping herself at his spiritual pressure and he wasnt even released. If Byakuya tried to brawl with a released Grimmjow he wouldnt last long against those claws and darts. There's just too much a difference in levels of durability there....if Byakuya wants to live he'd need to utilize his kidou and his ranged game.
[hr]
I'd estimate that Byakuya can hang with Bankai Ichigo but he'd still lose in the long run. Taking on the hollow mask + Bankai Ichigo is out of the question as Byakuya was thoroughly schooled by a reckless Hollow Ichigo in the past. Ichigo defeated this same hollow Ichigo in his inner world before even going to Hueco Mundo.

Takahashi
November 20, 2010, 02:52 AM
Well I think thats kind of flawed, thats like saying Hitsugaya's ice cant do anything to captain-class shinigami fighters because he couldnt freeze any of the arrancar substantially. The difference between hierro and shinigami is like armoured vehicles compared to non-armoured vehicles.

Just because its not effective against arrancar, doesnt mean shinigami would just brush it off as well.

The fact that you think one GT could end it against someone like Byakuya is flawed as well. Hierro is overrated, only Noirtra actually gave us an impressive display, the Espada bled just like the rest of us. If they were akin to Armored cars like you say, they wouldn't even require any blocking or dodging. The fact is, if an attack has sufficient strength, it'll bust right through, and that's what counts. If Ichigo's GT is able to "end it" against Byakuya in a single swing, then it would undoubtedly bypass an Espada's defense by a wide margin, not leave a scar.



Shikai Ichigo: First GT -
http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-chapter-161-page-4.html

It cut Byakuya's arm (shallow) even though it was aimed foot+ away from him.
http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-chapter-161-page-7.html

Bankai Icigo: Noob GT: It was able to cut and scar Grimmjaw hierro who could hold the blade bare-handed.
http://www.mangafox.com/manga/bleach/v24/c211/16.html

The use of mask only makes it stronger. The mastery of the mask and the location of HM makes it even more stronger.

Ichigo left a scar on an unarmed, cocky Grimmjow that left him plenty of time to charge up his attack. You think Byakuya couldn't do better with a Kido spell?

A low level, non incantation, single digit (4 I believe) Kido nearly killed Bankai Ichigo, are you saying that Sokatsui (a level 33) wouldn't be enough to scar Grimmjow? We've seen VC's do 50+ level ones, I'd imagine a Raikoho or Soren Sokatsui are well within Byakuya's ability without incantation. That WILL hurt, and I'd bet on that overpowering a hollow GT easily.

As far as location, yes Ichigo has the Hollow advantage here, but Byakuya has fought in HM too and he killed two Espada, ONE of which Ichigo barely cut, while Byakuya proceeded to cut off legs like nothing. Normal Bankai Ichigo is insanely outclassed here, it all depends on how strong you think the HM advantage is for Hollow Ichigo, and while I think it's sufficient to give a challenge, I don't see how he can deal with a resolved to kill Byakuya that is allowed in this fight to use Senkei's actual ability.




Im talking about Mask Ichigo here. Base Bankai Ichigo is about the only bankai besides maybe Hitsugaya who increases tanking potential. Put on the Mask and he becomes SSJ Bankai Ichigo (as already mentioned) and put him in HM he becomes even more durable.

How does Ichigo's Bankai increase tanking? It's been said many times that ALL it does is speed. I will give you that his Hollow mask almost definitely does something defensively though.


1 dart
http://www.mangafox.com/manga/bleach/v32/c283/4.html

5 darts - He truly walked it off:
http://www.mangafox.com/manga/bleach/v32/c282/20.html
http://www.mangafox.com/manga/bleach/v32/c282/21.html

Is gokei more destructive than 5 darts? They look like they explode on impact! Ichigo's shear reiatsu stopped all 5 from exploding and going no further than the top of his flesh.


No further than the top of his flesh? He was SEVERELY hurt after taking those darts, he was panting excessively, and if it wasn't for an Orihime resolve boost, he would have been finished. And what's all the talk about Gokei? It's impressive in the fact that it's basically undodgable, I said specifically it would never one shot Ichigo, but it WOULD hurt, and if you think that those darts did nothing to Ichigo, then my mind is blown.



The limits to Ichigo tanking was beneath Cero Ocurus where he just survived, but I dont think Byakuyas petals can replicate that type of damage. Also, ask yourself can Byakuya can survive Cero Ocurus by shear tanking? Sure Ulquiorra pissed on Full-Power GT but can Byakuya do the same again just by tanking - remember how Shikai GT already bled him by just being near him?

You're forgetting something very important, blood loss means nothing in Bleach. Byakuya bleeding by the arm in the Bleach world is the equivalent of a small paper cut in the real world. All Bleach fights would end in the first-second strike if they were at all comparable and realistic. Kenpachi gets cut enough to die 20 times over, doesn't slow him down one bit.

As far as the whole Byakuya VS Ulq thing, his petals don't have to replicate the same damage as a Cero. One powerful shot is not the defining factor at all. It's his versatility that Ichigo can't even compare to.

And Byakuya wouldn't have to tank Cero's, unlike Ichigo, he's got defense and techniques, why bloody himself when he has so many options? Ichigo on the other hand has none, so he gets hit a lot. I'd also like to point out that surviving is not even close to what tanking means. Komamura already having a massive hole in his chest from a previous battle, gets cut all the way up his body, removing his arm, and still takes a swing at Aizen before being cut horizontally and finally falling <----THAT is tanking. Ichigo gets knocked around a bit, he doesn't get stabbed dozens of times and not even fall down like say, Kenpachi.



Im not saying that Ichigo will counter every assassin technique but he isnt defenseless either.
http://www.mangafox.com/manga/bleach/v40/c345/16.html

The blade was that far from his neck which was travelling to go straight though - but he still managed top defend himself.

And a few pages later we see his mask cut, and a deep gash going in between his eyes. That wasn't defense, that was luckily evading. I wouldn't rely on something like that to keep me safe more than once, it was desperation, not a reliable defense. If I moved my head to one side out of fear as someone shot a bullet at me and it missed my head and grazed my cheek, that doesn't mean I have a defense against firearms, it means I got lucky, nothing more, nothing less.
[hr]

Ya know Broken Wing, I gotta agree that Grimmjow is hardier and tanks it better than Byakuya. Come to think of it, Grimmjow grabbed Ichigo's bankai blade and tossed him like a joker while Byakuya's hand was all cut up when he tried to replicate the same feat. Theres also no indication that Byakuya has less spiritual pressure than Grimmjow. Let's face it, when Rukia first saw Grimmjow she was crapping herself at his spiritual pressure and he wasnt even released. If Byakuya tried to brawl with a released Grimmjow he wouldnt last long against those claws and darts. There's just too much a difference in levels of durability there....if Byakuya wants to live he'd need to utilize his kidou and his ranged game.
<hr noshade size="1">
I'd estimate that Byakuya can hang with Bankai Ichigo but he'd still lose in the long run. Taking on the hollow mask + Bankai Ichigo is out of the question as Byakuya was thoroughly schooled by a reckless Hollow Ichigo in the past. Ichigo defeated this same hollow Ichigo in his inner world before even going to Hueco Mundo.

The fact that you're saying that Grimmjow is > than Byakuya makes me want to vomit. Byakuya completely embarrassed the Espada one rank weaker than Grimmjow, and he and Kenpachi gave an off panel ass kicking to the strongest Espada in his strongest form, don't even say that Kenpachi did all the work.

Also, Ichigo defeated his inner Hollow by magically turning his sword black and stabbing him, it was a resolve issue, it wasn't a fight in any way.

You make so many references to what happened in the SS arc and completely ignore recent events. Guess what? Kenpachi lost to SHIKAI ICHIGO, I could make comparisons all day to say that Grimmjow is stronger than Kenpachi using the fight in the SS arc, but would it be true? Not even close.

Broken_Wing
November 20, 2010, 04:32 AM
The fact that you think one GT could end it against someone like Byakuya is flawed as well. Hierro is overrated, only Noirtra actually gave us an impressive display, the Espada bled just like the rest of us. If they were akin to Armored cars like you say, they wouldn't even require any blocking or dodging. The fact is, if an attack has sufficient strength, it'll bust right through, and that's what counts. If Ichigo's GT is able to "end it" against Byakuya in a single swing, then it would undoubtedly bypass an Espada's defense by a wide margin, not leave a scar.

They don’t require blade blocking against slashes meant to cut a Shinigami. Thats the point. A foot soldier (shinigami) can pump holes against non-armoured cars (non-arrancar) but the can also bust up a tank (arrancar), they need just need to be prepared (land mines, RPGs etc) in other words more focussed sword slashes (see Ikkaku battle).

Also an RPG would blow a car to pieces but not necessarily do the same to an armoured vehicle.

If this is what VizIchi GT did this to Grimmjow why would you say Byakuya would absorb it better?
http://www.mangafox.com/manga/bleach/v26/c232/13.html


No further than the top of his flesh? He was SEVERELY hurt after taking those darts, he was panting excessively, and if it wasn't for an Orihime resolve boost, he would have been finished.

Tanking IS TANKING. Dont imply it wasn’t. I never said it didn’t hurt but I bet he tanked those better than how Byakuya tanked those HollowGTs. Base on the OP Ichigo gets ORIHIME BOOST* from the start as DEFUALT.


As far as location, yes Ichigo has the Hollow advantage here, but Byakuya has fought in HM too and he killed two Espada, ONE of which Ichigo barely cut, while Byakuya proceeded to cut off legs like nothing.

Please , you know why Ichigo only cut Yammy just barely. That scene in no way suggests that the attacks Byakuya used against Yammy is anyway superior to Ichigo GT. Alos KENPACHI chopped off Yammy’s leg not Byakuya.


A low level, non incantation, single digit (4 I believe) Kido nearly killed Bankai Ichigo¬¬.
Who was at his limit.


And Byakuya wouldn't have to tank Cero's, unlike Ichigo, he's got defense and techniques, why bloody himself when he has so many options? Ichigo on the other hand has none, so he gets hit a lot.

Im not sure why you had to point this out to me:

Ofc, Byakuya's well-rounded nature gives him options to create layers of defense - petal walls, Danku, kido barrier etc.



I'd also like to point out that surviving is not even close to what tanking means. Komamura already having a massive hole in his chest from a previous battle, gets cut all the way up his body, removing his arm, and still takes a swing at Aizen before being cut horizontally and finally falling <----THAT is tanking. Ichigo gets knocked around a bit, he doesn't get stabbed dozens of times and not even fall down like say, Kenpachi.

Like i said before THIS IS ALSO TANKING.
http://www.mangafox.com/manga/bleach/v32/c282/20.html
THIS IS TANKING
http://www.mangafox.com/manga/bleach/v32/c284/14.html
THIS IS TANKING
http://www.mangafox.com/manga/bleach/v32/c284/18.html

Your Kenpachi and Komarurma feats would mean more if Byakuya replicated the same thing but all you have pointed out is that Byakuya and Ichigo are less of a tank than Kenpachi, thats it.

* ORIHIME BOOST = Overpowering Released Grimmjow with min-diff.

Thats the Ichigo Byakuya will be fighting.

Also, interestingly enough I havent posted this much to defend that VizIchigo is going to win - only that he'll put up one hell of a fight...!

Takahashi
November 20, 2010, 06:31 AM
They don’t require blade blocking against slashes meant to cut a Shinigami. Thats the point. A foot soldier (shinigami) can pump holes against non-armoured cars (non-arrancar) but the can also bust up a tank (arrancar), they need just need to be prepared (land mines, RPGs etc) in other words more focussed sword slashes (see Ikkaku battle).

Also an RPG would blow a car to pieces but not necessarily do the same to an armoured vehicle.

That wasn't really my point, didn't you say that if Ichigo got Byakuya with a GT it would end it? Unless I misunderstood. My point is that if it was powerful enough to take out a mid-high captain in a single shot, it would have killed a mid Espada in an unreleased form as well.


If this is what VizIchi GT did this to Grimmjow why would you say Byakuya would absorb it better?
http://www.mangafox.com/manga/bleach/v26/c232/13.html



Tanking IS TANKING. Dont imply it wasn’t. I never said it didn’t hurt but I bet he tanked those better than how Byakuya tanked those HollowGTs. Base on the OP Ichigo gets ORIHIME BOOST* from the start as DEFUALT.


I never said Byakuya could tank better than Grimmjow, what I said was that he wouldn't have to. I said ICHIGO is not a tank, you said his Bankai increased his tanking, it doesn't.

Grimmjow had a single arm, and was fighting in an unreleased form, which basically means he has no ability. Byakuya on the other hand has many defensive abilities and techniques, which you are aware of.


Please , you know why Ichigo only cut Yammy just barely. That scene in no way suggests that the attacks Byakuya used against Yammy is anyway superior to Ichigo GT. Alos KENPACHI chopped off Yammy’s leg not Byakuya.

The way I interpreted it was that was Ichigo with a mask but no Hollow powers. That would mean the GT he fired was his normal Bankai power, and aside from aesthetics was unimpressive.



Who was at his limit.

My point was that it was an incredibly low level Kido that had some impressive power, and it's a testament to Byakuya's skill with Kido. Are you saying that Hollow Ichigo would just be fine if he got hit by a high level Kido? That's all I'm saying. Ichigo both can't use his own Kido as a counter, but he also has no preparation for it. There's plenty in Byakuya's arsenal that can both restrain and severely hurt both Ichigo's, and it's a defining factor for me.




Like i said before THIS IS ALSO TANKING.
http://www.mangafox.com/manga/bleach/v32/c282/20.html
THIS IS TANKING
http://www.mangafox.com/manga/bleach/v32/c284/14.html
THIS IS TANKING
http://www.mangafox.com/manga/bleach/v32/c284/18.html

Your Kenpachi and Komarurma feats would mean more if Byakuya replicated the same thing but all you have pointed out is that Byakuya and Ichigo are less of a tank than Kenpachi, thats it.

* ORIHIME BOOST = Overpowering Released Grimmjow with min-diff.

Thats the Ichigo Byakuya will be fighting.

Also, interestingly enough I havent posted this much to defend that VizIchigo is going to win - only that he'll put up one hell of a fight...!

Actually, I was just being stingy about the word "tank". When you call Ichigo a tank, it sounds like you're saying he's gonna be absorbing slashes from Byakuya like he was Kenpachi or something. That's just not true, the pictures you linked could be used for any fight, Ichigo's just being hurt and not dying. Every good guy who's ever been in a serious fight has taken serious injuries and continued fighting and not died, doesn't make them the definition of a tank. I gave examples of Koma and Kenpachi because those are the only two who I think deserve the title.

Basically what I'm saying is that I think it's completely wrong saying Ichigo will win because he'll be "tanking" Byakuya's attacks, he's not the tank type, is he fragile? No. Does his mask help him defensively? Probably. But I've never seen anything from him to truly justify him as a tank.

Primecut
November 20, 2010, 06:45 PM
The fact that you're saying that Grimmjow is > than Byakuya makes me want to vomit. Byakuya completely embarrassed the Espada one rank weaker than Grimmjow, and he and Kenpachi gave an off panel ass kicking to the strongest Espada in his strongest form, don't even say that Kenpachi did all the work.

Also, Ichigo defeated his inner Hollow by magically turning his sword black and stabbing him, it was a resolve issue, it wasn't a fight in any way.

You make so many references to what happened in the SS arc and completely ignore recent events. Guess what? Kenpachi lost to SHIKAI ICHIGO, I could make comparisons all day to say that Grimmjow is stronger than Kenpachi using the fight in the SS arc, but would it be true? Not even close.
__________________

Durability wise Hollow Ichigo > Grimmjow >>> Byakuya. We all saw that Byakuya was half dead from one Getsuga Tenshou from Hollow Ichigo. Released Grimmjow deflected a GT with his bare hand and chuckled at Ichigo manically. He also tanked way more slashes and GT than Byakuya and still kept fighting. Also, show me anything that proves that Byakuya can tank the five darts that Ichigo did, heck, Byakuya's durability has consistently shown that he cant even tank one. And if he cant tank these kind of attacks then Grimmjow mauls him in close quarters combat. Grimmjow is higher ranked than Zommari and technically Byakuya was also fighting an immobilized pumpkin...still struggling in that fight until Zommari got overconfident. Grimmjow isnt gonna stand there lecturing him, he's gonna claw, bite and scratch until Byakuya is a blood mess.

Crystal Black
November 20, 2010, 07:25 PM
^^ Are you serious... Byakuya had no struggles against Zommari. The match was over like Byakuya said, there power wasn't comparable. The only reason he lasted so long was because of his Amor ability. The only reason Byakuya used bankai was to show that difference in power. Zommari still lived but would have died eventually. Shikai and kido was all what's needed. Grimmjow is too reckless to fight with someone like Byakuya.

Darkp
November 21, 2010, 04:53 PM
Well the way I see it is that all the Ichigo's of HM (minus the monster) are weaker than the Ichigo at the end of SS. Its not entirely baseless cause Aizen stated Visored Ichigo should have been far stronger than what he was displaying. Gin also said Ichigo was scarier in SS and didn't think much at all of his Visored mask boost.

My logic is that Ichigo working fully with Zangetsu (Shinigami side only) >>> Ogihci not lending full power and working against them both. This plays right into Kubo's main theme of anything Shinigami > Hollow. His power only started to fluctuate wildly after the Hollow made its presence felt. This logic explains the apparent "mess" that was going on between Byakuya/Kenpachi/Ichigo and Zommari/Nnoitra/Grimmjow. Kubo didn't mess up the powerlevels, he neglected explaining precisely what was happening to Ichigo and left it all up to the fans to work out.

The only powerlevels he messed up imo was that of VLs. He overhyped them and couldn't live up to his promises cause it meant there would be no excuse for his precious goodies to live. Even Aizen got trolled by it cause he, like us, genuinely expected the VL Espada to do the business.

So I voted Byakuya wins both scenarios. Visored Ichigo made both Grimmjow and R1 Ulquiorra look far better than they actually were. Resolve won't help him in this fight cause Byakuya already seen that and his Ban Kai. His biggest advantage in the SS fight was the element of surprise combined with Byakuya's arrogance. Both those will be absent here so he's going down.

To add those , I think it is pretty confirmed by tensa-zangetsu too , his inner power/world shrinks cause of hollow side .

http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-chapter-423-page-5.html

Jackk
November 21, 2010, 05:30 PM
To add those , I think it is pretty confirmed by tensa-zangetsu too , his inner power/world shrinks cause of hollow side .

http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-chapter-423-page-5.html

That was after Ichigo's "Ichigonator form" though, where Ichigo couldn't properly control his new mask, and he was afraid of his new hollow form etc.



* ORIHIME BOOST = Overpowering Released Grimmjow with min-diff.

Thats the Ichigo Byakuya will be fighting.



^ That is actually a very good point, I had forgotten about this. If Ichigo is resolved like he was after Orihime told him not to get hurt again. Then Byakuya would really be in trouble.

With that resolve, Ichigo was able to catch grimmjows's hand without even looking, as if it was nothing, then proceeds to cut Grimmjow.

http://www.mangafox.com/manga/bleach/v32/c283/19.html
http://www.mangafox.com/manga/bleach/v32/c283/20.html

Then, with his resolve, Ichigo proceeds to cut through Grimmjow's ultimate technique as if it were nothing, and then defeats Grimmjow as well.

http://www.mangafox.com/manga/bleach/v32/c285/15.html
http://www.mangafox.com/manga/bleach/v32/c285/16.html
http://www.mangafox.com/manga/bleach/v32/c285/17.html
http://www.mangafox.com/manga/bleach/v32/c285/19.html
http://www.mangafox.com/manga/bleach/v32/c285/20.html
http://www.mangafox.com/manga/bleach/v32/c285/21.html
http://www.mangafox.com/manga/bleach/v32/c285/22.html
http://www.mangafox.com/manga/bleach/v32/c286/4.html

Waking_Dreamer
November 21, 2010, 08:45 PM
^ Well I would have Ichigo as the "Orhime Resolve" for this battle, since thats how he did defeat Grimmjow - with that resolve.

Many people say mid-tier Espada shouldnt be a match for the full capabilities of Captains, and I guess VizIchigo showed at the end that he was more than a match for Grimmjow too.

Raizen
November 22, 2010, 01:57 PM
Nope, I said physically superior mate.

Hierro helps him out and the fact that Byakuya was slashed and expended a lot of his reatsu fighting Ichigo before taking those GTs which supports that a 100% health Grimmjow was more tank worthy than Byakuya at that time.



He doesnt have to say it, but its less powerful than saying it. FACT.
1. True hierro does help, but a shinigami can still refine his SS to lessen damage, as seen with ken.

2. Its a fact that ichigo has to say the name for the technique to be stronger. It is not a FACT that the hollow has to b/c the attack is originally his

Kuroi Getsu
December 10, 2011, 05:02 AM
Byakuya takes the first one with some difficulty.

Vizard ichigo takes the second one.

The Newbie.
December 10, 2011, 06:09 PM
Ichigo is so fast Byakuya can't even react. It was shown multiple times. Only reason he didn't kill Byakuya is because he was fighting the rules, not trying to settle down any personal grudge against anyone. Reason he was having problems keeping up with everyone throughout the AA was because his resolve was broken.

niblack89
December 23, 2013, 02:31 PM
Byakuya was equal to Ichigo's improper Bankai. It was stated that Ichigo didn't know how to use his Bankai at the time and the immense spiritual energy was crushing his bones.
During the time Ichigo faced Ulquiorra he'd mastered his Bankai to the point he could keep it activated for days, without his body being strained. Also by that time Ichigo had mastered the black getsuga, a technique that over powered Byakuya and Ichigo had his hallow mask which gave Ichigo more power.
Byakuya just isn't as powerful as Ichigo but Ichigo doesn't know how to use his power that's why it fluctuates so damn much, that and zangetsu limits Ichigo's power

XXGenesis
March 14, 2014, 04:53 AM
As much as I like Ken, he's not beating Ichigo again and neither Is Byakuya.

Ichigo's Bankia is and will remain superior Byakuya's Bankia. Tensa Zangetsu is just faster than kageyoshi senbzakura and Byakuya physically himself.
Byakuya can't fight this out with skill alone too many GT to block, then surprise attack he really can't react to.

Crystal Black
July 14, 2014, 10:59 AM
Yeah current Ichigo beats Byakuya almost all the time. But who knows, Ichigo does have a tendency to struggle with people he shouldn't have.

ANimouz
July 19, 2014, 08:44 AM
How is this even a debate.

Ichigo curbstomps with small-mid difficulty.