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SaintSheik
November 27, 2010, 03:11 PM
Shinji vs. Gin
I haven't seen this around on these forums and I'm listing it under canon because it took place briefly in the story. The conditions are that both combatants are armed with everything we've seen in the manga and that they learn about each others abilities as they fight. If it makes any difference, this takes place in FKT.

Galbert-Kun
November 27, 2010, 04:04 PM
Giving it to Shinji. Gin has a hax zan with a based ability, but Shinji's Sakanade can be argued is just as haxed. When they were skirmishing, Shinji looked like he was 'winning' if you can call it that.

Omiem
November 27, 2010, 07:06 PM
Shinji wins this. I can't really see Gin adapting to Sakanade's ability even though he is a prodigy. Mask and Cero just makes things worse for Gin.

Grekaosangel
November 27, 2010, 07:56 PM
Unless I'm mistaken, isn't Sakanade's ability nothing more than an optical illusion, as stated by Aizen himself?

And since Kyouka Suigetsu is an optical effect when released in order to permanently put you under its spell. Gin is unaffected due to him never opening his eyes, so I'd say Gin wins.

He'd be unaffected by the optical illusion the same as why he isn't under KS.

Hystzen
November 27, 2010, 08:19 PM
people forget how dangerous shinji is coz he got uber trolled by Aizen

sakande is smell

very few characters in bleach is smart enugh to adapt to the effects i say only aizen n urahara able to adapt quickly

shinji used mask n speed blitz Gin like he did to grimmjow while using sakanade Gin be beat (well most characters in bleach verse would not handle that)

plus shinji has bankai ..shinji is top tier easily.
people hate coz they see the word vizard

shinji is top tier shinigami maybe urahara isshin level

En Yang Ji
November 27, 2010, 08:35 PM
I'm giving this to Shinji, if their behaving normally. It would be shikai vs shikai. Shinji would probably end it before gin goes bankai.

If they are going all out from the beginning, its harder to tell. Shinji's shikai ability takes a little while to take effect. If Gin goes bankai before Shinji's ability takes affect, he might win. If Shinji's shikai takes effect its over.

Grekaosangel
November 27, 2010, 09:22 PM
I'm giving this to Shinji, if their behaving normally. It would be shikai vs shikai. Shinji would probably end it before gin goes bankai.

If they are going all out from the beginning, its harder to tell. Shinji's shikai ability takes a little while to take effect. If Gin goes bankai before Shinji's ability takes affect, he might win. If Shinji's shikai takes effect its over.

It's not a matter of what sense is necessary for an effect to take place. Sight or smell (KS or Sakanade), what I'm saying is that even if Sakanade's effect worked on Gin, it'd be pointless as he doesn't rely on eyesight to fight...for whatever reason as his eyes are never open. The optical illusion would be pointless.

Jackk
November 27, 2010, 09:39 PM
Unless I'm mistaken, isn't Sakanade's ability nothing more than an optical illusion, as stated by Aizen himself?

And since Kyouka Suigetsu is an optical effect when released in order to permanently put you under its spell. Gin is unaffected due to him never opening his eyes, so I'd say Gin wins.

He'd be unaffected by the optical illusion the same as why he isn't under KS.

Actually, Sakanade's effect is activated by smell, not sight.

http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-chapter-400-page-6.html
http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-chapter-400-page-7.html

Gin will definitely get affected by it. And Gin does use his sight to fight (even if he appears to have his eyes closed in more situations), he's not really like Tousen.

Now, I think that Gin does have a chance in this fight due to his Bankai's poison, but that's only IF he manages to stab Shinji AND then leave a piece of his blade inside (http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-chapter-427-page-17.html) Shinji.. so that the dust/poison in it can do the job (http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-chapter-427-page-18.html). Thing is: it won't be an easy task to do against someone like Shinji. And if Ichigo could more or less react to Gin's Bankai blade, I'm sure Shinji will not have any serious problems to say the least... specially if he's using Shikai + Mask.

Shinji is also much more experienced than Gin, in my opinion.

Shinji's shikai is really hax. Further, I believe that the main reason Aizen could even counter Shinji was because he pretty much used his own shikai (his kyoka suigetsu) to counter Shinji's sakanade, as I noted in another post (http://mangahelpers.com/forum/showpost.php?p=2164688&postcount=554).

Shinji's Mask should give him a significant boost to power/strength, speed, and defense. And he also has a pretty powerful cero, which we didn't even get to see at full force. Shinji shot his Cero (http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-chapter-236-page-11.html) from a significant distance (http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-chapter-236-page-12.html)(it should deal even more damage if shot at a closer range, specially at point-blank) and Grimmjow still only barely managed to throw in a cero of his own to reduce the damage some, and even with his hierro...he still got completely wasted/trashed (http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-chapter-236-page-13.html) by Shinji's cero. I'm not saying that Shinji's cero would definitely "kill" Gin, but if the cero connects... I'm fairly certain that it will surely damage Gin hard. And what if Shinji gets a chance to do it at a closer range? Yeah, that would be bad for Gin.

Granted Shinji still needs to be careful, but the combo of Shinji's sakanade + Mask would be really dangerous for Gin. If Shinji goes all out attacking as fast as he can... from multiple directions, Gin wouldn't be able to keep up with all of it. There's no way that Gin will be able to register all that in his head to be able to counter all the attacks in time. Granted Gin's own blade could be dangerous if he also attacks fast from multiple directions. Nevertheless, Shinji has the advantage of Sakanade...which has to slow down Gin to some degree since Shinji's attacks will be reversed, and Gin will be cut in the opposite direction of where he was looking (http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-chapter-400-page-12.html) too etc.

I think that Gin does have a small chance due to his Bankai's poison, but even then, I think that Shinji has a lot more going for him. And quite frankly... I really think that Shinji could overwhelm Gin.

I see Shinji winning this fight.

Waking_Dreamer
November 28, 2010, 12:06 AM
It's not a matter of what sense is necessary for an effect to take place. Sight or smell (KS or Sakanade), what I'm saying is that even if Sakanade's effect worked on Gin, it'd be pointless as he doesn't rely on eyesight to fight...for whatever reason as his eyes are never open. The optical illusion would be pointless.

Gin doesnt fight blind like Tousen. lol

He just has squinty eyes - thats how they draw them in manga....

Grekaosangel
November 28, 2010, 01:52 AM
Gin doesnt fight blind like Tousen. lol

He just has squinty eyes - thats how they draw them in manga....

I didn't say he fought blind. All I meant was that if KS doesn't affect Gin, the optical illusion wouldn't either. To be affected by KS you have to see the shikai, so if Gin is unaffected because of how his eyes are, I'm assuming that's the case, then the optical illusion is wasted.

If there's some manga evidence to point that Gin, with his eyes squinted would not see KS, but still fall prey to the optical illusions of Sakanade, then obviously I'm mistaken. But I don't believe there is such examples.

Though, I wouldn't doubt if he opened his eyes, that he would be seeing the illusion, cause the effect is through smell, that much is true.

Waking_Dreamer
November 28, 2010, 02:02 AM
1. I didn't say he fought blind. All I meant was that if KS doesn't affect Gin, the optical illusion wouldn't either. To be affected by KS you have to see the shikai, so if Gin is unaffected because of how his eyes are, I'm assuming that's the case, then the optical illusion is wasted.

2. If there's some manga evidence to point that Gin, with his eyes squinted would not see KS, but still fall prey to the optical illusions of Sakanade, then obviously I'm mistaken. But I don't believe there is such examples. But he hasnt - so KS affects his eyes just like Sakanade.

3. Though, I wouldn't doubt if he opened his eyes, that he would be seeing the illusion, cause the effect is through smell, that much is true.

1. Gin is affected by KS. That was the whole reason of staying by Aizen for more than 100 years, so he could find a way to get out of his influence.

2. Im not sure what youre saying, KS effetcs all the senses but lets just say it only effects vision like Sakanade, if the way he has squinted eyes negates vision effects of KS, he would have killed Aizen waaay before KFT/KT, perhaps even before SS arc.But he hasnt - meaning KS affects his eyes, like Sakanade would.

3. He's still fighting with sight. When hes striking/slashing someone hes always using sight. Even with his squinted eyes he would be seeing the inverted world.

Jackk
November 28, 2010, 02:12 AM
I didn't say he fought blind. All I meant was that if KS doesn't affect Gin, the optical illusion wouldn't either. To be affected by KS you have to see the shikai, so if Gin is unaffected because of how his eyes are, I'm assuming that's the case, then the optical illusion is wasted.

If there's some manga evidence to point that Gin, with his eyes squinted would not see KS, but still fall prey to the optical illusions of Sakanade, then obviously I'm mistaken. But I don't believe there is such examples.

Though, I wouldn't doubt if he opened his eyes, that he would be seeing the illusion, cause the effect is through smell, that much is true.

Actually, there is this:

http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-chapter-427-page-11.html
http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-chapter-427-page-14.html
http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-chapter-427-page-15.html

If Gin was not affected by KS, then why would Gin even bother touching Aizen's sword to nullify the effect if he's not affected and cannot be affected according to what you're saying? It would make no sense. And Gin had always waited for so many years to hear about a weakness to KS, and an opportunity to kill Aizen etc.

Also, Gin's eyes aren't even completely closed, I'm pretty certain that they're just squinted. And he also opens them fully in other occasions. And Gin is still seeing with his eyes when his eyes are squinted too.

Grekaosangel
November 28, 2010, 02:17 AM
Yeah, I just checked up on the section of the Manga that I had thought mentioned that both Gin and Tousen were not affected, but I guess it only mentions Tousen. My bad...

El Samurai Guapo
November 28, 2010, 03:27 AM
I'm pretty much on the same page as Kio with regards to Gin. I think he's more dangerous than some of the people on this forum consider him to be (I think he's above Byakuya and the like). Shinji is one of the worst opponents for Gin though. The most important thing for Gin to get his blade to connect with his opponent so he can poison them; that's not going to be easy under Sakanade's effects.

I think Shinji easily takes this one shikai vs. bankai. I don't think hollowfication would even be necessary either. Gin does have a shot at taking Shinji out before he can release he shikai though, as kio mentioned. But once Sakanade is up it's over.

Oh and in regards to Shinji's cero, Grimmjow never even really got hit by it. He fired his own cero, and as you can see here (http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-chapter-236-page-12.html) the blast seems to have mostly gone around the center where GJ was. The only thing we really know is that Shinji's cero >>>>>> Grimmjow's. I'd say Shinji's cero is at least around the level of a gran rey or cero oscuras.

Omiem
November 28, 2010, 10:30 AM
Gin's only chance is if he has full knowledge on Shinji's abilities. If that were the case, then he might be able to avoid Sakanade's smell by creating distance between himself and Shinji. As a result, Gin can attack from long range which can give Shinji some trouble.

BaddAzzKenpachi74
November 28, 2010, 04:41 PM
As a result, Gin can attack from long range which can give Shinji some trouble.
but for that to even be a posibility Gin would have to adjust to Sakanades effect which as Shinji pointed out is EXTREMELY difficult to do especially in the heat of the battle so i don't see Gin pulling this off.
Aizen only managed because he just so happened to have a even more HAX ability.
i don't see GIn winning this one so i'm giving this one to Shinji.
in my opinion the best Gin can hope to pull off in this battle against Shinji is make Shinji pull his mask out while in Shikai mode.

Jackk
November 28, 2010, 05:56 PM
I'm pretty much on the same page as Kio with regards to Gin. I think he's more dangerous than some of the people on this forum consider him to be (I think he's above Byakuya and the like). Shinji is one of the worst opponents for Gin though. The most important thing for Gin to get his blade to connect with his opponent so he can poison them; that's not going to be easy under Sakanade's effects.

I think Shinji easily takes this one shikai vs. bankai. I don't think hollowfication would even be necessary either. Gin does have a shot at taking Shinji out before he can release he shikai though, as kio mentioned. But once Sakanade is up it's over.

Oh and in regards to Shinji's cero, Grimmjow never even really got hit by it. He fired his own cero, and as you can see here (http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-chapter-236-page-12.html) the blast seems to have mostly gone around the center where GJ was. The only thing we really know is that Shinji's cero >>>>>> Grimmjow's. I'd say Shinji's cero is at least around the level of a gran rey or cero oscuras.

I agree that Gin is very deadly and dangerous. Particularly if Gin starts attacking with his Bankai blade really fast from multiple directions, but like you said, Shinji is pretty much a bad match-up for Gin. Particularly because of Sakanade, that shikai is really broken if used properly. (using Sakanade and then attacking really fast from multiple directions to completely confuse the enemy etc.)

And even then, Gin still has a small chance... but he not only needs to cut Shinji, he also needs to actually stab Shinji and leave a piece of his blade inside him...so that the dust/poison can do the job and kill him. That's definitely not going to be easy to do, specially not under the effects of sakanade. If Shinji plays his cards right, I see Shinji overwhelming Gin once he's put under the effects of Sakanade. There's just no way Gin would be able to keep up at that point.

The boost that Shinji's Mask would give him, plus the cero that he can do... would just put this fight even more so in favor of Shinji.

Further, I believe you're right about Shinji's cero not hitting Grimmjow directly. (due to Grimmjow using his own cero to minimize the damage, and even then...Grimmjow still got completely trashed (http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-chapter-236-page-13.html) by Shinji's cero)

Question is: How much damage do you think a direct hit from Shinji's cero would do to Gin?

El Samurai Guapo
November 28, 2010, 06:10 PM
Question is: How much damage do you think a direct hit from Shinji's cero would do to Gin?

From point blank probably the same thing Ulquiorra's second cero oscuras did to Ichigo.

Omiem
November 28, 2010, 07:24 PM
but for that to even be a posibility Gin would have to adjust to Sakanades effect which as Shinji pointed out is EXTREMELY difficult to do especially in the heat of the battle so i don't see Gin pulling this off.
Aizen only managed because he just so happened to have a even more HAX ability.
i don't see GIn winning this one so i'm giving this one to Shinji.
in my opinion the best Gin can hope to pull off in this battle against Shinji is make Shinji pull his mask out while in Shikai mode.
Um, you didn't read the first part of my post. I said that if Gin had knowledge on Shinji's abilities, then he might be able to avoid Sakanade's ability by running away before the smell consumes him. Which means that Gin can fight by attacking from long range with his bankai. Other than that, the odds of Gin winning are pretty slim.

Jackk
November 28, 2010, 08:38 PM
I can see this happening in the fight:

http://i928.photobucket.com/albums/ad121/gias14/Odd/ShinjiVsGinv2.jpg

El Samurai Guapo
November 28, 2010, 11:55 PM
I can see this happening in the fight:

http://i928.photobucket.com/albums/ad121/gias14/Odd/ShinjiVsGinv2.jpg

What he should have done to Aizen instead of shunpoing in front of him and taking his mask off....

...not that it would have made a difference though cause LOLillusion.

conn-man
November 29, 2010, 01:00 PM
Sakanade takes away gins ability to aim properly and he's not figuring it out like aizen did, gins cunning but not calculating. Throw the mask in for faster, stronger movements, some ceros for fun and gins dead. Especially if you consider that shinji is out for blood seeing as what gin did to hiyori.

Jackk
November 29, 2010, 03:27 PM
Sakanade takes away gins ability to aim properly and he's not figuring it out like aizen did, gins cunning but not calculating. Throw the mask in for faster, stronger movements, some ceros for fun and gins dead. Especially if you consider that shinji is out for blood seeing as what gin did to hiyori.

I agree with your general view on this, Particularly with Sakanade also taking away Gin's ability to aim properly (or at least it would definitely be harder for Gin to aim as precisely as he normally would), as well as with Shinji's Mask basically complementing Shinji's Shikai very nicely by boosting his strikes, and his speed etc.

Although regarding Aizen vs Shinji, I don't think that Aizen simply figured it out and that that's why he could then counter Shinji. Figuring it out it's actually not all that hard after the first few attacks. You can notice that not only is everything inverted, but when you get hit...you also get cut in the opposite direction of where you were looking etc. The problem is that you still won't be able to keep up even if you know what's happening to you.

There will be no time to register everything in one's head, flip it around, and counter all the attacks in time. Not to mention that most experienced fighters will tend to react reflexively, thus will eventually fall pray to what their eyes are telling them, and cause them to make a mistake in the heat of the fight against Sakanade. Trying to flip things in their head will certainly slow them down too, which gives Shinji an advantage.

I think it's pretty safe to say that Aizen used his own superior shikai (Kyoka suigetsu's complete hypnosis) to counter Shinji's Sakanade.

I had explained the reasoning behind that, more in detail in this post: http://mangahelpers.com/forum/showpost.php?p=2164688&postcount=554

conn-man
November 29, 2010, 05:09 PM
@jackk

you said that aizen used kyoka suigetsu to counter sakanade, i agree. i explained in another post somewhere that aizen was still under the effects of sakanade during that fight, he never shook it off at any point. I interpreted it as him layering an illusion copy of himself for shinji to fight(i think when se saw him take that slash on the arm it was an illusion.) it looked like aizen kept a safe distance from shinjis area of movement, then calculated the mirrored oppisites, up for down, right for left and front for back and was able to find shinji in the inverted world while distracting him with an copy.

i dont think gin has any means to try and do this same process in even twice the time aizen did, by htat time shinji will probably have delivered a winning strike.

Jackk
November 29, 2010, 06:10 PM
@jackk

you said that aizen used kyoka suigetsu to counter sakanade, i agree. i explained in another post somewhere that aizen was still under the effects of sakanade during that fight, he never shook it off at any point. I interpreted it as him layering an illusion copy of himself for shinji to fight(i think when se saw him take that slash on the arm it was an illusion.) it looked like aizen kept a safe distance from shinjis area of movement, then calculated the mirrored oppisites, up for down, right for left and front for back and was able to find shinji in the inverted world while distracting him with an copy.

i dont think gin has any means to try and do this same process in even twice the time aizen did, by htat time shinji will probably have delivered a winning strike.

Ahh sorry, I believe we're pretty much in agreement then :)

Hystzen
November 29, 2010, 06:13 PM
i think Aizen did even before Sakanade or he released his shikai.

i think Aizen was unsure if he could take out shinji without some damage as he had no idea what his shikai was he knew his hollow mask gives him a good boost he nearly owned grimmjow in seconds if grimm didnt counter point blank cero.

so i think Aizen knew shinji was dangerous and did KS BEFORE even shinji attacked.

still on topic

i like Gin i find him under rated but Shinji is higher tier easily and wins

Jackk
November 29, 2010, 06:31 PM
i think Aizen did even before Sakanade or he released his shikai.

i think Aizen was unsure if he could take out shinji without some damage as he had no idea what his shikai was he knew his hollow mask gives him a good boost he nearly owned grimmjow in seconds if grimm didnt counter point blank cero.

so i think Aizen knew shinji was dangerous and did KS BEFORE even shinji attacked.

still on topic

i like Gin i find him under rated but Shinji is higher tier easily and wins

That's also true. I think El Samurai Guapo had brought this up the other day too, in another post.

We see Aizen drawing out his KS here: http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-chapter-398-page-6.html

Then we see Shinji asking Aizen if he's scared. Then Shinji continues and tells Aizen that since he never told him anything, Aizen has no idea of what his(shinji's) zanpakutou's ability is.

http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-chapter-398-page-7.html

http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-chapter-398-page-8.html

Shinji also used to be Aizen's Captain etc, and since Aizen had no idea of what Shinji's abilities were, and specially after hearing from Shinji that he's not the only one that has a zanpakutou that can control people's nervous system, it would really be stupid for Aizen not to have taken precaution and use his own Shikai at that point (specially since this Aizen was still being very cautious). Therefore, yes, it's very likely Aizen used KS illusions on Shinji from the very beginning. Then there's also all the other things I had noted in my post in another thread. (http://mangahelpers.com/forum/showpost.php?p=2164688&postcount=554)

Poor shinji, his Shikai is very hax...but Aizen's shikai is basically an upgraded version of Shinji's shikai.

KS has to be the most broken zanpakutou. How can you beat complete hypnosis? And how would you even give it an upgrade for Bankai? :blink

conn-man
November 29, 2010, 07:18 PM
Ahh sorry, I believe we're pretty much in agreement then :)

Yeah I saw we viewed it pretty much the same way, I just though i would show exactly how i figured that fight went. It's a subject a lot it people disagree on.

Primecut
November 29, 2010, 08:41 PM
Gin doesn't even have his eyes open when he fights...I doubt sakande would mean much in this battle. Besides, the moment Shinji starts twirling his sword we can have Gin open with a mach 500 sword blitz and one shot this fight. Gin is higher tier than Shinji, not sure why people keep saying Shinji has anything on Gin. We saw how useful Ichigo's mask was against Gin...he'll break Shinji's mask all the same.

Jackk
November 29, 2010, 09:24 PM
Gin doesn't even have his eyes open when he fights...I doubt sakande would mean much in this battle. Besides, the moment Shinji starts twirling his sword we can have Gin open with a mach 500 sword blitz and one shot this fight. Gin is higher tier than Shinji, not sure why people keep saying Shinji has anything on Gin. We saw how useful Ichigo's mask was against Gin...he'll break Shinji's mask all the same.

You're either really trolling or have been reading a different Manga all this time...

First of all, Gin can't open with a mach 500 sword blitz and one shot this fight. Gin's sword isn't even that fast, he lied to Ichigo about that.

Gin fights with his sight. He doesn't have his eyes completely closed, he has squinted eyes...which still allow him to see. And he even opens them fully sometimes. Gin is not like tousen. Tousen doesn't use sight because he is really blind and has his other senses pretty much heightened. We discussed this in page one of this thread too, so go back and read that... <.<

Also, Ichigo's Mask != Shinji's Mask. You know, Shinji is much more experienced and he has a very powerful cero. His Mask also complements his shikai tremendously by boosting his strikes and his speed. Gin won't be breaking Shinji's Mask, considering that Shinji has the speed advantage due to sakanade slowing Gin down, to say the least, and further speed boost to Shinji from the Mask.

Primecut
November 30, 2010, 05:41 AM
You're either really trolling or have been reading a different Manga all this time...

First of all, Gin can't open with a mach 500 sword blitz and one shot this fight. Gin's sword isn't even that fast, he lied to Ichigo about that.

Gin fights with his sight. He doesn't have his eyes completely closed, he has squinted eyes...which still allow him to see. And he even opens them fully sometimes. Gin is not like tousen. Tousen doesn't use sight because he is really blind and has his other senses pretty much heightened. We discussed this in page one of this thread too, so go back and read that... <.<

Also, Ichigo's Mask != Shinji's Mask. You know, Shinji is much more experienced and he has a very powerful cero. His Mask also complements his shikai tremendously by boosting his strikes and his speed. Gin won't be breaking Shinji's Mask, considering that Shinji has the speed advantage due to sakanade slowing Gin down, to say the least, and further speed boost to Shinji from the Mask.

If the sword isn't Mach 500 or near Mach 500 then he wouldnt have been able to pull off the lie. He was probably lying about the fastest zanpakto thing. Even the animators depicted the sword as a lightning or light type attack because it is so fast. Shinji's mask won't give him enough speed to compensate for near Mach 500 speeds. Plus the fact he couldnt even take one hit from base Aizen without passing out isnt looking good for him. At least Gin hung with Godzen briefly. Gin also tanked a Getsuga Tenshou to the face, we seen how much damage one Getsuga could do to Aizen, so Gin's durability feats are better than Shinjis.

Gin..well he can probably take a Sakanade slash just to point his sword in the right direction and one shot Shinji. All because Gin is on a higher tier than Shinji based on feats. Beating around a one-armed Grimmjow does not make Shinji a good fighter. I'm giving this to Gin 80 - 20.

Jackk
November 30, 2010, 06:22 PM
If the sword isn't Mach 500 or near Mach 500 then he wouldnt have been able to pull off the lie. He was probably lying about the fastest zanpakto thing.

No. It's Funny how even Gin himself disagrees with you.

Gin: "Sorry, but that was a lie. It doesn't extend as long as I said, and it doesn't move that fast, either."

http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-chapter-427-page-18.html

Also, even Ichigo could more or less block and react to Gin's Bankai blade: http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-chapter-412-page-17.html. Either way, it's definitely not as fast as you think...


Even the animators depicted the sword as a lightning or light type attack because it is so fast.

Now you're saying that it moves at the speed of light? lol... and anime isn't even canon.


Shinji's mask won't give him enough speed to compensate for near Mach 500 speeds.

Gin doesn't have near "Mach 500 speeds" ....and Shinji will actually have the speed advantage in this fight.

Gin can be dangerous because his Bankai can be quite lethal;however, Shinji's Sakanade will screw Gin.


Plus the fact he couldnt even take one hit from base Aizen without passing out isnt looking good for him.

Actually Shinji took 2 hits, and in both occasions...Aizen used his LOLillutions to take him down. Therefore, no, it wasn't even base Aizen who took him down. A very cautious Shikai Aizen using illusions took down Shinji, Shunsui and several others.


At least Gin hung with Godzen briefly.

No he didn't. That wasn't even a fight at all. Gin touched Aizen's sword to nullify his KS's complete hypnosis and then Gin stabbed by surprise, a completely careless Aizen to try and kill him. Not to mention that Gin's plan failed.


Gin also tanked a Getsuga Tenshou to the face, we seen how much damage one Getsuga could do to Aizen, so Gin's durability feats are better than Shinjis.

No. Ichigo's GT hit all of Gin's body, look at the size of that thing: http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-chapter-412-page-20.html

We were only shown mostly Gin's face, which was bleeding pretty badly...and he also used his arm for protection too.

Now, what Aizen got hit with was a sneak attack GT from a Bankai + Mask Ichigo. Look at the side of that thing: http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-chapter-409-page-7.html

What did that GT do to Aizen? It only gave him a cut in his shoulder... http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-chapter-409-page-9.html

^ None of that indicates that Gin is more durable than Shinji at all. Your arguments are really bad. Particularly because you make things up, and have been reading a different manga all this time, apparently.


Gin..well he can probably take a Sakanade slash just to point his sword in the right direction and one shot Shinji.

Gin can take a sakanade slash through his throat or in the head?


All because Gin is on a higher tier than Shinji based on feats. Beating around a one-armed Grimmjow does not make Shinji a good fighter. I'm giving this to Gin 80 - 20.

You're completely wrong. Shinji doesn't even need to release his Bankai to take down Gin. Shinji's hax Shikai + Mask is more than enough.

Baromirek
January 02, 2011, 10:56 PM
If Gin uses his Bankai (real thing, not the hyper extention crap) then he would win. Otherwise Shinji, because of Mask+Shikai.

El Samurai Guapo
January 03, 2011, 12:33 AM
If Gin uses his Bankai (real thing, not the hyper extention crap) then he would win. Otherwise Shinji, because of Mask+Shikai.

You mean the poison? Yeah, if he manages to land that attack he can potentially kill even Yamamoto. Problem is that Shinji's shikai ability is going to make that incredibly difficult. Shinji is one of the worst opponents for Gin. I'd have to concede that Gin could take the other vaizards though, at least until we see their own bankais.

ShootToKill
April 22, 2011, 06:18 PM
This is a tough one... I think that sealed they would be about equal in most aspects - both have very dangerous abilities though. If Gin manages to go Bankai before Shinji releases Sakanade (Shinji's release is slower than Gin's), he has a very good chance - Shinji's good but I wouldn't expect him to last very long against Kamishininoyari, although the mask will augment his speed somewhat, increasing the chance of him dodging.

If Shinji releases in time, it will be very difficult for Gin. I would imagine Gin would work it out reasonably fast, but would it be fast enough? Probably not. I think Gin has a better chance against Shinji's Shikai than a lot of people, since he doesn't require perfect timing with his Bankai to get a good hit, so if he worked out Shinji's ballpark position before he attacked, he would have a chance. However, I believe Shinji would take this more times than not.

Takahashi
April 22, 2011, 07:22 PM
Wow, this thread was brought back from the dead. Don't even remember this one.

I'm not sure who I'd vote for, I wish we knew the ins and outs of Gin's poison. It eroded Aizen's chest, but it also hit him dead center. Would an arm shot kill? Can he do it more than once?

I'd probably say Shinji due to the nature of his ability being a good counter for one that requires a good shot to finish (or at least, one I believe requires a good chest or head shot to finish)

Crystal Black
April 23, 2011, 10:28 PM
I would have to give this to Shinji particularly because of his shikai. Sakanade is extremely hax and it would be difficult for range fighters like Gin to get a good hit on him.

cracker
April 24, 2011, 12:38 PM
Shinji's wins more scenarios than Gin due Sakanade + Mask, Gin's still cooler though.

cloudo
April 26, 2011, 12:16 AM
Gin wins this- even if it isn't mach 500- his sword is still plenty fast. Sakanade is great but Gin can just swing it around and slice whatever is in it's path. Shinji has to block sometime, when he does he gives away his position, and Sakanade is seriously not as tricky as some make it out to be. Ichigo isn't a weakling either, he's the main character, so of course he'll be able to block Gin's sword. If he didn't there'd be no more manga.

Raizen
April 26, 2011, 01:10 PM
Sakanade affects you through your smell but it affects your vision.
I personally don't see that ability as too hard to counter.

And gin's shikai and bankai has enough speed for him to change the direction of his attack to the opposite direction once he gets the idea of what sakanade does.

I haven't voted yet, but i was just arguing for gin since i don't see anyone else doing so

cloudo
April 27, 2011, 02:09 AM
I voted for Gin! I don't have nothing against Shinji, but Gin would win IMO.

Autumn
April 27, 2011, 08:13 PM
This could go either way.It really depends on who activate their shikai(Shinji) or bankai(Gin) first.If Gin activate bankai first,then it will be nearly impossible for Shinji to activate shikai since Gin will most likely be spamming K no Y,all over the place.While it will be difficult for Gin to spam K no Y if he's under Shinji's shikai.So this fight is 50/50 for me,but I see Gin having the advantage due to his bankai's speed.

HaouLelouch
April 29, 2011, 03:28 PM
Gin was called child prodigy and Aizen thought he had the intelligence to work out a way to kill him.

I think Gin will be able to overcome sakanade.

as for shinji's base abilities...he needed mask to overwhelm an injured, one armed Grimmjow without managing to land one slash on him and shinji said he wasn't holding back. shinji's base stats have always been a question mark for me.

kamakazi_1996
April 29, 2011, 05:04 PM
lmao i saw this and started laughing, i could say that gin wins becuase sakanade only effects what you see but gin doesn't open his eyes so he wont be affected by it.

Jackk
April 29, 2011, 06:34 PM
lmao i saw this and started laughing, i could say that gin wins becuase sakanade only effects what you see but gin doesn't open his eyes so he wont be affected by it.

No.

This was already covered in the first page of this thread. Gin does not fight with his eyes closed like Tousen. Gin just has squinted eyes; he still uses sight to fight. Shinji's sakanade will work on Gin...

kamakazi_1996
April 30, 2011, 05:19 AM
then shinji wins this, gin doesn't have anything that can counter the effects, and i haven't seen if he has been intelligent like aizen to be able to counter the effects,

gin could 1 hit kill shinji with his poison but its useless if he doesn't know where to strike

shinji wins this only because of sakanade but i think gin is waay cooler than shinji

HaouLelouch
April 30, 2011, 04:11 PM
No. It's Funny how even Gin himself disagrees with you.

Gin: "Sorry, but that was a lie. It doesn't extend as long as I said, and it doesn't move that fast, either."

http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-chapter-427-page-18.html

Also, even Ichigo could more or less block and react to Gin's Bankai blade: http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-chapter-412-page-17.html. Either way, it's definitely not as fast as you

That's because Gin extended bankai then used a normal slash attack with it on ichigo. He didn't direct the extension on ichigo. If gin could swipe a sword at the same speed his bankai can extend he could take out the whole of the bleach universe in less than 1 second.
The true extension speed is less than 500 times the speed of sound but ichigo still couldn't react to it at all and it was pretty much instantaneous.

ShootToKill
April 30, 2011, 04:51 PM
Basically, Shinji would have to act very quickly in order to secure a win. Once Gin is under Sakanade, it will only be a matter of time before he works out the general nature of it, so Shinji must attack immediately. Unlike most opponents, Gin doesn't need to be especially precise with his attacks, since he can attack from any distance at any time. So if he gets a general notion of where Shinji is at any given time, things still won't be easy for Shinji. Having said this, Shinji with mask is going to be pretty damn fast, so I believe he would get the opportunity to defeat Gin if he used Sakanade.

Gin could still win if he doesn't give Shinji the opportunity to use Sakanade, and this is indeed possible since Gin can go Bankai faster than Shinji can release Sakanade. However, I'll still say that Shinji wins more times than not.

Jackk
April 30, 2011, 05:39 PM
That's because Gin extended bankai then used a normal slash attack with it on ichigo. He didn't direct the extension on ichigo. If gin could swipe a sword at the same speed his bankai can extend he could take out the whole of the bleach universe in less than 1 second.


Ignoring the fact that you're quoting a pretty old post that I made in response to someone else, did you even see what I was replying to ?

I'll show you, this:


If the sword isn't Mach 500 or near Mach 500 then he wouldnt have been able to pull off the lie. He was probably lying about the fastest zanpakto thing.

And as you can see, the person I responded to was saying that Gin was probably just "lying about the fastest zanpakto thing" ...and he made no mention of Gin's extending and retracting of his zanpakutou. Furthermore, what I stated was correct, Gin actually says that it doesn't move as fast as he said nor does it extend as fast as he said either (http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-chapter-427-page-18.html).

Yes, Gin's ability to retract and extend his blade the way he does makes him more deadly--specially if he manages to stab you long enough to leave a piece of his blade inside you with poison--but considering the person I responded to was not talking about any of that, me saying that Ichigo was able to block Gin's blade (http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-chapter-412-page-17.html), even if it was already extended, was a valid point in response to what I was quoting....


The true extension speed is less than 500 times the speed of sound but ichigo still couldn't react to it at all and it was pretty much instantaneous.

As for your claim that Ichigo couldn't react to the extension at all:

http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-chapter-413-page-12.html
http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-chapter-413-page-16.html

Anyway, back on topic, I actually believe that Gin is overall pretty good and could beat many people with his deadly Bankai. I even think that he has a chance to beat Shinji;however, I think that Shinji takes this more often than not with shikai + Mask. Sakanade is just that broken, and it's certainly going to affect Gin's ability to aim properly...

Deicide
May 01, 2011, 09:57 AM
Gin can't overcome Sakanade.
It will cripple his sense of direction, not to mention his aim.

HaouLelouch
May 02, 2011, 12:44 PM
Ignoring the fact that you're quoting a pretty old post that I made in response to someone else, did you even see what I was replying to ?

I'll show you, this:



And as you can see, the person I responded to was saying that Gin was probably just "lying about the fastest zanpakto thing" ...and he made no mention of Gin's extending and retracting of his zanpakutou. Furthermore, what I stated was correct, Gin actually says that it doesn't move as fast as he said nor does it extend as fast as he said either (http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-chapter-427-page-18.html).

Yes, Gin's ability to retract and extend his blade the way he does makes him more deadly--specially if he manages to stab you long enough to leave a piece of his blade inside you with poison--but considering the person I responded to was not talking about any of that, me saying that Ichigo was able to block Gin's blade (http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-chapter-412-page-17.html), even if it was already extended, was a valid point in response to what I was quoting....



As for your claim that Ichigo couldn't react to the extension at all:

http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-chapter-413-page-12.html
http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-chapter-413-page-16.html

Anyway, back on topic, I actually believe that Gin is overall pretty good and could beat many people with his deadly Bankai. I even think that he has a chance to beat Shinji;however, I think that Shinji takes this more often than not with shikai + Mask. Sakanade is just that broken, and it's certainly going to affect Gin's ability to aim properly...

just because the person you were replying to weren't making much sense and your reply making an equally trivial point (you clearly suggested Gin's swiping speed had something to do with shinso's speed, which does not make sense) doesn't mean I am not allowed to point out the facts lol...
the new picture you shown me shows gin successfully stabbing ichigo with the extension...then ichigo dodges when gin swipes down...like i said before even if shinso doesn't travel as fast as he said it's still damn fast and the first time it retracted ichigo didn't notice and the second time it extended it hit ichigo. when did '500 times the speed of sound' have much meaning anyway.
[hr]

What he should have done to Aizen instead of shunpoing in front of him and taking his mask off....

...not that it would have made a difference though cause LOLillusion.

it's hilarious how you brought that pic up because it shows shinji wasn't holding back against one armed, injured grimmjow and he couldn't land a single slash on him. even his cero was slow enough for grimmjow to partially charge one to somewhat counter it.

freshseth83
May 02, 2011, 04:33 PM
Exactly, but somehow Shinji is supposed to be this guy with an unbeatable shikai? Gin's sword may not be mach 500, but it's enough in the speed department to overcome Shinji and sakanade IMO. Reversing things sure is tough, but Gin has been around Aizen who tricks all the senses. I'm sure he's able to discern how to counter attacks from a reverse position. That's my take.

Jackk
May 02, 2011, 11:34 PM
just because the person you were replying to weren't making much sense and your reply making an equally trivial point (you clearly suggested Gin's swiping speed had something to do with shinso's speed, which does not make sense) doesn't mean I am not allowed to point out the facts lol...

No, you did not correct me on anything there lol...

Go back and read the posts you quoted, then read again my reply to you where I gave you an explanation. =/


the new picture you shown me shows gin successfully stabbing ichigo with the extension...then ichigo dodges when gin swipes down...like i said before even if shinso doesn't travel as fast as he said it's still damn fast and the first time it retracted ichigo didn't notice and the second time it extended it hit ichigo. when did '500 times the speed of sound' have much meaning anyway.


Well you stated that Ichigo couldn't react "at all" ...which wasn't exactly true. But I suspect that we're just arguing semantics here. Admittedly I was just nitpicking there; I even put emphasize in your "at all" part by putting it in italics in my previous post...

Anyway, I had already told you that I do believe that Gin's ability to retract and extend his blade the way he does makes him more deadly, specially since he has a chance to inflict the enemy with some deadly poison if he manages to stab them long enough to leave a piece of his blade inside them; it's right there in my previous post. If you think about it for a moment, you'll see that we're actually mostly in agreement in terms of Gin's zanpakutou ability. Though I still see Shinji winning this particular match more often than not with shikai + Mask, particularly due to sakanade crippling Gin's sense of direction and affecting his aim...


it's hilarious how you brought that pic up because it shows shinji wasn't holding back against one armed, injured grimmjow and he couldn't land a single slash on him.

Huh? How was Shinji not holding back against Grimmjow? Shinji was still fighting with his sealed sword for crying out loud...

Shinji may have said that he wasn't going to go easy on Grimmjow (http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-chapter-236-page-10.html), but that could just mean that he wasn't going to make it easy for Grimmjow; it doesn't necessarily mean that Shinji was now not holding back. Heck Shinji was clearly dominating and overpowering Grimmjow (http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-chapter-236-page-9.html) with little to no effort and Shinji's zanpakutou was still sealed. Not to mention the fact that prior to Shinji putting on his Mask, sealed Shinji with no Mask was already casually dodging Grimmjow's attacks (http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-chapter-236-page-7.html). Grimmjow was the one who was too slow to even hit a base Shinji.

Grimmjow was destroying everything around them (http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-chapter-236-page-7.html) because he couldn't touch Shinji, hence why Shinji says that he's going to stop dodging, then puts on his mask and goes to take Grimmjow down in 1 attack with a cero (http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-chapter-236-page-13.html). And Shinji was still relaxed and confident after blasting Grimmjow with the cero from a distance. Shinji clearly wasn't trying very hard, he was still holding back; the sealed sword specially should have made it painfully obvious...


even his cero was slow enough for grimmjow to partially charge one to somewhat counter it.

Well first off, Shinji's cero completely overpowered Grimmjow even though Grimmjow didn't actually receive a direct hit and Shinji shot that cero from a distance (point blank would do more damage). And the main reason Grimmjow was even able to use his own cero in order to reduce the damage taken was because Shinji pretty much gave him the time to do so. Why? Because Shinji pushed him back (http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-chapter-236-page-9.html) and started charging his cero (http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-chapter-236-page-10.html) straight at Grimmjow from a distance. Then, obviously Grimmjow knew what was coming (http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-chapter-236-page-11.html) and had the time to release his own cero right before he got hit by Shinji's--which still didn't even stop Shinji's cero from sending Grimmjow crashing (http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-chapter-236-page-12.html) down and making him curse and bleed like crazy (http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-chapter-236-page-13.html).

cloudo
May 03, 2011, 04:14 AM
Shinji's cero was with his mask on 'fresh' and arguably at full strength. Grimmjow didn't even release, took at least 1 GT from masked Ichigo, and had ONE arm. So he's probably less than 25% of his full potential, just had tanked an attack from Ichi- then parried a Cero from a high powered captain with mask? That's not flattering for Shinji.

Raizen
May 03, 2011, 11:37 AM
Shinji is the most overrated character out there. His shikai is far from unbeatable. As stated, it is nothing but an optical illusion. Thus u can counter it.

Gin's sword is fast. he may not adapt to the ability of sakanade at first, but with its long blade he can keep swinging it around. Or he can attack shinji while shiji tries to release his shikai

I haven't voted who would win yet, but people praise shinji when he has not done shit

En Yang Ji
May 03, 2011, 12:05 PM
Shinji's shikai isn't unbeatable, but it's still incredibly haxx. Imagine if someone attacked you and you just have enough time to react to what you're seeing. You block the attack that's coming from the left, but it's actually coming from the right, this is what Gin would be dealing with.

freshseth83
May 03, 2011, 01:15 PM
HAH! The funny part about it is you see the inversion take place! There's nothing to guess about it. Then Shinji says welcome to the inverted world in the only instance he's used it. Skilled fighters use more than just sight. You have reiatsu sensing, hearing, feeling... Shinji affects nothing but sight. Freakin Tosen could beat him.

En Yang Ji
May 03, 2011, 01:35 PM
Let's say Shinji takes a middle stance with his sword and attacks from the left as soon as he gets to you. Situations like these are part of the reason why he's so powerful.

ShootToKill
May 03, 2011, 02:41 PM
HAH! The funny part about it is you see the inversion take place! There's nothing to guess about it. Then Shinji says welcome to the inverted world in the only instance he's used it. Skilled fighters use more than just sight. You have reiatsu sensing, hearing, feeling... Shinji affects nothing but sight. Freakin Tosen could beat him.
Only Tousen has been shown to use Reiatsu detection on its own as a successful means of fighting, and this would be due to him having cultivated it for (centuries?) years and developed it into a legitimate fighting ability. Other Shinigami can sense Reiatsu and get a ballpack area of their enemy through this, but they can't use it as a substitute for sight. If this was the case, why didn't Aizen do this from the start against Shinji? If anyone were to develop such an ability, Aizen would be a likely candidate.

Btw Tousen would not beat Shinji simply because he's weaker, especially when Shinji puts on his mask.

Raizen
May 03, 2011, 03:01 PM
Only Tousen has been shown to use Reiatsu detection on its own as a successful means of fighting, and this would be due to him having cultivated it for (centuries?) years and developed it into a legitimate fighting ability. Other Shinigami can sense Reiatsu and get a ballpack area of their enemy through this, but they can't use it as a substitute for sight. If this was the case, why didn't Aizen do this from the start against Shinji? If anyone were to develop such an ability, Aizen would be a likely candidate.

Btw Tousen would not beat Shinji simply because he's weaker, especially when Shinji puts on his mask.
Bold part is an assumption

HaouLelouch
May 03, 2011, 03:19 PM
1 armed grim still prevented himself from getting cut lol, despite shinji 'dominating' him. Shinji's cero seem to have a pretty long charge time which is not impressive. Powerful arrancar like ulq and stark were able to charge theirs instantly.

I remember in some translations(anime sub) shinji says 'I'm not holding back'. We can definitely say he isn't fighting in a laid back manner and is definitely serious and trying to kill grimmjow there. Shinji not using Shikai here probably has more to do with kubo not wanting to reveal it yet. I was talking about his base stats anyway(look for my first post I said something like 'shinji's base stats has always been a question Mark for me because of his fight against grimmjow'). Shinji has not really shown better feats than this and aizen also made short work of his Shikai. Gin was able to keep up with post ulq bankai ichigo and even ichigo with his mask one though he started to have resolve issues by this point I think. I do seem to remember buto renjin shattering ichigo's mask before he lost his resolve though.

Takahashi
May 04, 2011, 12:51 AM
Bold part is an assumption

Yeah, I think Vaizard Tousen would give Vaizard Shinji a run for his money personally, although due more to his HSR.

Shinigami Tousen sucks though, but masked and Ressurection Tousen were really impressive IMO (Mostly because I think highly of Komamura, and anyone who can knock his Bankai around with ease has to be powerful as hell).

cloudo
May 04, 2011, 02:42 PM
Shinigami Tosen took out Kensei like it was a walk in the park, in shikai. Granted he had the element of surprise, but you get the picture. And where in the manga does it show that Tosen is the only one who fights using reiatsu sensing? Yama knew it was real Aizen by his sword's reiatsu, right?

ShootToKill
May 04, 2011, 03:00 PM
Shinigami Tosen took out Kensei like it was a walk in the park, in shikai. Granted he had the element of surprise, but you get the picture. And where in the manga does it show that Tosen is the only one who fights using reiatsu sensing? Yama knew it was real Aizen by his sword's reiatsu, right?
First, Shinigami Tousen had a Bankai which completely deprived the opponent of their senses, not many people can defend against that. As for the other comment, Yama didn't "fight using Reiatsu sensing", he just confirmed that Aizen truly had stabbed him through sensing his sword's Reiatsu. This is very different to being able to actually fight at Captain level solely by sensing the opponent's Reiatsu. What I'm saying is that Tousen is the only person who can do this, because he's lived without sight for so many years, and has been able to develop this ability.

Yama was simply able to detect Aizen's presence, he couldn't however use Reiatsu sensing as a substitute for sight. It doesn't say this in the manga, but it makes sense. Otherwise, Tousen's Bankai, Shinji's Shikai and even Aizen's Shikai would be largely useless, which we know isn't the case.

Raizen
May 05, 2011, 11:56 AM
I disagree that tousen is the only one that uses reiatsu sensing. Reiatsu sensing is a type of sense. Just like humans have 5 senses, but we rely mostly on sight. When we see someone, we use our sight to see where they are rather than hearing despite us still being able to perceive their location based on hearing. But due to sight, we rely less on hearing, not that we can't.

Same thing here. Why rely on reiatsu sensing when u can see. But once u realize your sight is deceiving you, you can rely more on the other senses

ShootToKill
May 05, 2011, 02:44 PM
I disagree that tousen is the only one that uses reiatsu sensing. Reiatsu sensing is a type of sense. Just like humans have 5 senses, but we rely mostly on sight. When we see someone, we use our sight to see where they are rather than hearing despite us still being able to perceive their location based on hearing. But due to sight, we rely less on hearing, not that we can't.

Same thing here. Why rely on reiatsu sensing when u can see. But once u realize your sight is deceiving you, you can rely more on the other senses
Sure you can use it as an additional sense, what I'm saying is that it isn't a substitute for sight, just like hearing isn't a substitute for sight for you or me. If someone tried to punch you or me, chances are we could block / dodge it. When blindfolded, the situation would be totally different. We would be able to hear them approach, but wouldn't know where they were punching, which arm they were using, etc. Imo Reiatsu sensing in Bleach is analogous to this for most characters. They can detect someone's presence and perhaps get their ballpark position, but can't hope to fight on their level by sensing their Reiatsu alone.

cloudo
May 05, 2011, 03:16 PM
So when they dodge ceros, or fast strikes from swords, or when they know where someone is going to be from a Shunpo, that's not reiatsu sensing? Please, lots of characters use reiatsu sensing as a part of their fighting. That's probably the main thing they are able to use, by detecting someone's presence. And Shinigami Tosen didn't use his bankai in TBTP arc, Shoot- if he did you should show me those panels.

Raizen
May 06, 2011, 03:29 PM
Sure you can use it as an additional sense, what I'm saying is that it isn't a substitute for sight, just like hearing isn't a substitute for sight for you or me. If someone tried to punch you or me, chances are we could block / dodge it. When blindfolded, the situation would be totally different. We would be able to hear them approach, but wouldn't know where they were punching, which arm they were using, etc. Imo Reiatsu sensing in Bleach is analogous to this for most characters. They can detect someone's presence and perhaps get their ballpark position, but can't hope to fight on their level by sensing their Reiatsu alone.
Sight while is something important, if u focus on the other senses, u can do almost as good as u would with sight. All sakanade is is an optical illusion. U can still win w/o having to rely on sight.

Look at halibel, she didn't see hitsu but dodged using her other senses.
Kenpachi as well.
Yamamoto when he fought aizen.

ShootToKill
May 06, 2011, 03:44 PM
Sight while is something important, if u focus on the other senses, u can do almost as good as u would with sight. All sakanade is is an optical illusion. U can still win w/o having to rely on sight.

Look at halibel, she didn't see hitsu but dodged using her other senses.
Kenpachi as well.
Yamamoto when he fought aizen.
Not sure what you mean about Hallibel. Kenpachi was able to use his reactions due to his sense of touch, but he's a special case. Yama didn't use other senses to fight, he just used his Reiatsu sensing ability to deduce that it actually was Aizen's arm he had grabbed.

Raizen
May 06, 2011, 04:20 PM
Halibel didn't see hitsu, she somehow sensed him.
How is kenpachi a special case? point is, he used his other senses to win
Yama didn't see aizen due to KS, but used touch to catch him. Again, sight was not a factor

Calisto
May 06, 2011, 06:17 PM
Harribel felt a blade touching her eyelashes and she dodged accordingly.

When did Aizen use KS on Yama? He just let himself purposely get stabbed.

Raizen
May 09, 2011, 11:23 AM
Harribel felt a blade touching her eyelashes and she dodged accordingly.

When did Aizen use KS on Yama? He just let himself purposely get stabbed.
http://www.mangareader.net/94-810-5/bleach/chapter-356.html
It wasn't touching her eyelashes. She sensed something and dodged.

http://www.mangareader.net/94-47594-8/bleach/chapter-393.html
From what i can see, aizen used KS to et behind yama. There were no sound for shuunpo. Then he used the sense of touch to catch aizen