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conn-man
November 30, 2010, 03:09 PM
I think everyone gets what I mean with this fight.

No scenarios, no restrictions, no nothin.

Gin vs Barragan.

Primecut
November 30, 2010, 06:58 PM
Heh, Barragan has no chance here. He got kidou blitzed by Hachi so how can he evade a guy who has a Mach 500 weapon? Barragan's respira is easily dodged and Gin can just skewer him from any angle he chooses. If Gin was weaker than any Espada well then Lord Aizen would have slashed down Gin too like he did to Halibel. But the fact is Gin is on the upper tier of Bleach, right below Godzen, Ichigo and Yama.

Random101
November 30, 2010, 11:35 PM
Quick death line against a target that could very well be entirely immune to it (Where's the poison going to be injected? He has no flesh) vs. instant decaying omnidirectional attack. Yeah, Gin's boned here, almost as bad as against Yamamoto. Even if you argue his sword can't decay, which is a hard case to argue against anything that isn't some kind of elemental ability (Albeit not a futile one with only Soifon's bankai to judge), Respiera's just as fast, if not faster, than the blade, Gin has literally no defense against it, and worst of all, it covers a hell of a lot more area than a single point.

He could play to Barragon being a moron, which is true of almost anyone though, but I can't honestly figure how the hell the sword would work on him. And even if it did, you'd have to at least completely destroy everything, which Gin's ability stops short on doing from what we saw...

Well, maybe it's only completely destroying the head, I suppose if he get's a hit near there he might be set, provided it works with no fleshy bits.

Exodi
November 30, 2010, 11:49 PM
Heh, Barragan has no chance here. He got kidou blitzed by Hachi so how can he evade a guy who has a Mach 500 weapon? Barragan's respira is easily dodged and Gin can just skewer him from any angle he chooses. If Gin was weaker than any Espada well then Lord Aizen would have slashed down Gin too like he did to Halibel. But the fact is Gin is on the upper tier of Bleach, right below Godzen, Ichigo and Yama.

At some point, even you must get tired of trolling....


Anyway....
1. If by "kidou blitzed" you mean "took a chance by sacrificing the arm that had been caught by Barragan's Respira", then yes, Hachi kidou-blitzed Barragan.
2. Kamishini no Yari doesn't move at Mach 500. Gin said this himself. Stop with that. Seriously.

My own input is this:
Gin's sword disintegrates before it even touches Barragan.

Omiem
November 30, 2010, 11:57 PM
Gin has no way of defending Respira except dodging it. Barragan on the other hand has his TDF which will automatically rot Gin's blade or at least slow it down. This already gives Barragan the edge, so he should win with no troubles.

conn-man
December 01, 2010, 12:05 AM
One thing I noticed was when aizen took the poison, it erroded his bones to, so just because barragan is only bones it should still work if it connects. But in addition, B had half his body blown off by soifons rocket and could still fight. With this in mind it also looked like gins poison has a limit to how far it spreads on a target. So it seems like only a head shot from kami shini no yari would do the trick.

And as for the speed of of respira, it looks about as fast as a cero at its top speed. Not to easy to avoid.

Takahashi
December 01, 2010, 12:10 AM
Heh, Barragan has no chance here. He got kidou blitzed by Hachi so how can he evade a guy who has a Mach 500 weapon? Barragan's respira is easily dodged and Gin can just skewer him from any angle he chooses. If Gin was weaker than any Espada well then Lord Aizen would have slashed down Gin too like he did to Halibel. But the fact is Gin is on the upper tier of Bleach, right below Godzen, Ichigo and Yama.

My god Primecut. I've facedesked at so many of your posts I think I'm developing brain damage.

Speed of his sword was a lie.

Respira is essentially undodgable, Soi Fon couldn't do it, no way in hell can Gin.

Gin IS high up there, but guess what? His opponent has nothing with which to inject the poison to. Also, poison doesn't last forever, neither do swords, or anything else Gin has, so it's getting disintegrated. Also, only Aizen's chest was blown out, not his whole body, even if it is somehow randomly possible (Gin: Not only does my poison break down cells, but it lasts literally forever!......Somehow.) then Barragan will not be killed by it.

El Samurai Guapo
December 01, 2010, 03:28 AM
Honestly I don't even think Gin needs the poison here though. Barragan gets his skull pierced before he even gets his ass out his chair.

no_regretsYSL
December 01, 2010, 04:05 AM
I think its funny that this isnt a unanimous vote for Gin. His sword is beyond fast enough to pierce Baragan in the face before even beginning to fade away. I mean really now. The whole point of the kido aging was to should that everything ages, doesnt mean that everything ages and is ash instantly. Gin would lop of Baragan's head without a second thought before respira has a chance to get spit.

Besides who knows what kind of prodigy Gin is in the field of Kido. A quick binding spell before Baragan can release and its over. I'm sure he's capable of at least that.

Random101
December 01, 2010, 04:24 AM
Peirce him in the face before he releases? You mean when he's got his instant slowing time field? Yeah, good luck with that.

Frankly the speed in his bankai, while extremely dangerous when your back is turned, isn't much if you're expecting it. Not if Ichigo's reacting reliably. Hence why I don't rate him particularly high in the first place, bar close ranged combatants like Soifon and Kenpachi (As something like that is far harder to keep up with in CQC). Throw in someone absurdly broken and neigh untouchable like Barragon however and not freaking likely.

Then again considering it's also someone as colossally stupid as Barragon Gin might be able to pull something off when he's sealed. Beyond that though it's a hard case to argue.

Takahashi
December 01, 2010, 04:33 AM
Peirce him in the face before he releases? You mean when he's got his instant slowing time field? Yeah, good luck with that.

Frankly the speed in his bankai, while extremely dangerous when your back is turned, isn't much if you're expecting it. Not if Ichigo's reacting reliably. Hence why I don't rate him particularly high in the first place, bar close ranged combatants like Soifon and Kenpachi (As something like that is far harder to keep up with in CQC). Throw in someone absurdly broken and neigh untouchable like Barragon however and not freaking likely.

Then again considering it's also someone as colossally stupid as Barragon Gin might be able to pull something off when he's sealed. Beyond that though it's a hard case to argue.

Damn! I was just about to say that...

Primecut
December 01, 2010, 05:40 AM
My god Primecut. I've facedesked at so many of your posts I think I'm developing brain damage.

Speed of his sword was a lie.

Respira is essentially undodgable, Soi Fon couldn't do it, no way in hell can Gin.

Gin IS high up there, but guess what? His opponent has nothing with which to inject the poison to. Also, poison doesn't last forever, neither do swords, or anything else Gin has, so it's getting disintegrated. Also, only Aizen's chest was blown out, not his whole body, even if it is somehow randomly possible (Gin: Not only does my poison break down cells, but it lasts literally forever!......Somehow.) then Barragan will not be killed by it.

Undodgable? Well, if Omaeda, Soifon, and Hachi have ducked respira successfully until the very end then Gin can avoid Barragan's attacks with his eyes closed (well, squinted). Not being able to deal a killing blow to opponents like Omaeda and Hachi is not looking good for Barragan in this fight. Ya know, I don't even see this requiring a bankai as Gin is a high tier opponent and Aizen basically called ALL the Espadas a waste of time. If Gin was weaker than any Espada then Aizen wouldnt have kept him around, even implying he needed his help against Ichigo when Ishin showed up. There are no ifs about that question, Gin is in a completely different league than those fodder Espodders.
[hr]

I think its funny that this isnt a unanimous vote for Gin. His sword is beyond fast enough to pierce Baragan in the face before even beginning to fade away. I mean really now. The whole point of the kido aging was to should that everything ages, doesnt mean that everything ages and is ash instantly. Gin would lop of Baragan's head without a second thought before respira has a chance to get spit.

Besides who knows what kind of prodigy Gin is in the field of Kido. A quick binding spell before Baragan can release and its over. I'm sure he's capable of at least that.

Good point. Speaking of Gin being a genius, gotta also remember Barragan also has low fighting intelligence as he stands in front of a wall that Hachi made and ponders what is going on behind that wall while they were planning his doom. I see this ending with Gin throwing some blinder in front of him like his coat then Barragan going down as a sword going Mach 500 blasts through that coat, ripping Barragan to pieces and ending this debate.

There are only a handful of fighters who can hang with Gin and unfortunately for Barragan he ain't one of em.

Takahashi
December 01, 2010, 09:19 AM
Undodgable? Well, if Omaeda, Soifon, and Hachi have ducked respira successfully until the very end then Gin can avoid Barragan's attacks with his eyes closed (well, squinted). Not being able to deal a killing blow to opponents like Omaeda and Hachi is not looking good for Barragan in this fight. Ya know, I don't even see this requiring a bankai as Gin is a high tier opponent and Aizen basically called ALL the Espadas a waste of time. If Gin was weaker than any Espada then Aizen wouldnt have kept him around, even implying he needed his help against Ichigo when Ishin showed up. There are no ifs about that question, Gin is in a completely different league than those fodder Espodders.

I seriously question that you even read this manga sometimes, or that you're just trolling, I guess I'd bet on the latter.

Omeada got caught by a purposely slow Respira, Barragan said it himself. Soi Fon got caught when Barragan was trying to hit her, he was just too arrogant to finish things. Also, blocking Respira with Kido for a half a second doesn't count as "ducking" it.

Second, failed a killing blow? Hachi was dead meat had he not teleported his hand into Barragan, the aging spreads until you're bones, what is Gin going to do if his skin gets touched? Oh I forgot, he's better than all the Espada just because Aizen likes him, that totally trumps any ability :oh

BaddAzzKenpachi74
December 01, 2010, 01:40 PM
Heh, Barragan has no chance here. He got kidou blitzed by Hachi so how can he evade a guy who has a Mach 500 weapon? Barragan's respira is easily dodged and Gin can just skewer him from any angle he chooses. If Gin was weaker than any Espada well then Lord Aizen would have slashed down Gin too like he did to Halibel. But the fact is Gin is on the upper tier of Bleach, right below Godzen, Ichigo and Yama.

you have gotta be trolling dude.
i've seen a couple of guys basically explain and prove to you that Gin sword doesn't move at mach 500 and yet you STILL insist it does.

ONTOPIC
Barragan wins this one hands down.

xXAshisogiJizoXx
December 01, 2010, 09:44 PM
Primecut = Hachigeneral 2.0

anyways, gin is tricky and a capable captain, but hax beats tricky any day. Even if the sword hits a bone to try and dispense poison, the bone will just break off considering the speed of the blade and disintrigrate before a second strike is possible, assuming the first one even is.

Hystzen
December 02, 2010, 09:06 AM
Barragan IMO was the best espada his ability was so good kubo had to nerf him by handing him the stupid stick. if think bout it how many of gotei 13 could have killed him if he went all out pwning..yamma with fire but be close that be it rest be dead.

Gin is under rated on this forum (he DID kill "god" aizen) but he got no chance against Barragan.

conn-man
December 02, 2010, 03:05 PM
yeah i decided and voted for barragan, he can sonido pretty fast after all. since gin is super cocky and aizens clear second in command, i think barragan would take him seriously enough to use the combination we all have imagined, respira mixed w/rapid sonido. the slightest touch from respira to is going to be all barragan needs to win.

Primecut
December 02, 2010, 08:01 PM
you have gotta be trolling dude.
i've seen a couple of guys basically explain and prove to you that Gin sword doesn't move at mach 500 and yet you STILL insist it does.

ONTOPIC
Barragan wins this one hands down.

That sword of gins is definitely close to Mach 500. There would be no way for him to pull that bluff off if it were not somewhat true. I'll be generous and give it Mach 450 at its slowest. It is still definitely too fast for a slowpoke like released Barragan to dodge. Show me one decent speed feat that released Barragan had. Any speed feats he had in his regular form were due to the time dilation aura. He just slowed down Soifon and looked fast compared to her. Against Gin though...there aint no slowing down a Mach 450+ sword gunning straight for his heart.

Exodi
December 03, 2010, 12:02 AM
That sword of gins is definitely close to Mach 500. There would be no way for him to pull that bluff off if it were not somewhat true. I'll be generous and give it Mach 450 at its slowest. It is still definitely too fast for a slowpoke like released Barragan to dodge. Show me one decent speed feat that released Barragan had. Any speed feats he had in his regular form were due to the time dilation aura. He just slowed down Soifon and looked fast compared to her. Against Gin though...there aint no slowing down a Mach 450+ sword gunning straight for his heart.

There's no real way to tell exactly how fast Gin's sword is. Saying it is close to Mach 450 is a complete guess (and an outright idiotic statement).

1. Ichigo was able to dodge it.
2. Gin himself said it doesn't move at Mach 500
3. The only other time he used it (against Aizen), he was standing directly in front of him, perhaps a few feet. Anything would look fast from that distance.

I'd link you to the page where Gin explains all of this, but you've already seen it.


Also, Kamishini no Yari turns into dust for a moment while extending or contracting. Assuming Gin used it toward Barragan, KNY would have to disintegrate and reform within the realm of Barragan's rotting ability, which....would probably result in the sword rotting away.


Barragan was able to use Respira against a speeding missile and the giant explosion that came from it. A sword won't do much.

xXAshisogiJizoXx
December 03, 2010, 04:30 PM
That sword of gins is definitely close to Mach 500. There would be no way for him to pull that bluff off if it were not somewhat true. I'll be generous and give it Mach 450 at its slowest. It is still definitely too fast for a slowpoke like released Barragan to dodge. Show me one decent speed feat that released Barragan had. Any speed feats he had in his regular form were due to the time dilation aura. He just slowed down Soifon and looked fast compared to her. Against Gin though...there aint no slowing down a Mach 450+ sword gunning straight for his heart.

That's is not a hard bluff to pull off because nobody can tell the difference between mach 100 and mach 500, cuz mach 100 is already a hell of a lot faster than human perception. You know, thats aside from the fact that anything moving at either of those speeds would combust the surrounding atmosphere.

Speed feats due to TIME DILATION seem a lot more dangerous then speed feats from... regular speed. Also, released barragan has no heart.

SaintSheik
December 03, 2010, 05:50 PM
Even before releasing, Barragan was fast enough to catch to catch Soi Fon off guard and cause her arm to age. That and anytime she moved in for an attack, the old arrancar was able to slow her down. He was pretty broken even before considering Respira! As for that attack, wouldn't Gin's zanpaktou pay the price even if he was playing it safe by attacking from a distance? I won't even bring up the touch poison aspect because that would be all too risky. Barragan GMV

Primecut
December 03, 2010, 08:03 PM
That's is not a hard bluff to pull off because nobody can tell the difference between mach 100 and mach 500, cuz mach 100 is already a hell of a lot faster than human perception. You know, thats aside from the fact that anything moving at either of those speeds would combust the surrounding atmosphere.

Speed feats due to TIME DILATION seem a lot more dangerous then speed feats from... regular speed. Also, released barragan has no heart.

Okay, even if it is Mach 100 which is a lowball estimate then it is still faster than what Barragan has shown. I tend to believe that to claim a sword is Mach 500 successfully you need to be somewhere near that speed to begin with. It's like a hamburger at McDonalds, it might be a quarter pound of beef but after it is cooked you are losing a little water weight. If Gin's bankai isnt Mach 500 it is definitely above Mach 400 to be pulled off successfully. Heck, by his statements it might even be 499, which is pretty much 500.

xXAshisogiJizoXx
December 03, 2010, 08:23 PM
It's like a hamburger at McDonalds, it might be a quarter pound of beef but after it is cooked you are losing a little water weight.

I have typed ROFL many times, heck I even say the acronym like its a word of its own, but my god ... this sentence, never have I laughed so hard that I was actually compelled to lose control over my body to the point of rolling on the floor. Ranting aside, that analogy makes no sense.

Secondly you did not refute any points I made with arguements, you just made statements. If 500 and 100 are indistuingishable, then why can't it be bluffed? And if I recall correctly, at above mach 25-ish-maybe, atmosphere begins to combust, or in laymen terms, go boom, so do you not feel a tad silly with the wanton throwing around of measurements like mach 500 or 400, or even 499:eyeroll?

PS: fat is lost when beef is cooked, not water

Random101
December 03, 2010, 08:25 PM
Or it could be the speed of sound and nobody'd be able to tell the difference, having not measured the thing. This is the problem with adding quantifiable numbers for only one thing and nothing else, it's damn hard to compare. To say the least assuming any sort of number about Gin's bankai is literally more worthless than it was when it was actual fact way back before it was retconed a third time, the only thing reliable now is feats. And Ichigo, Mr. I can't block something Orihime can see and block for me, was dodging it with more or less ease once he knew what it did.

Time Field or Respiera, Gin's got it rough unless Barragon takes his extra strength stupid pills to say the least. And even then if Barragon's released, the hell's he going to inject the poison into?

CitrusHour
December 03, 2010, 08:58 PM
Can Barragan age Gin's sword when it is extending?

Gin said it becomes particle based when it extends, correct? Well the entire danger of aging is that things break down from their full form into their more broken down form, but if his sword is already broken down how would age affect it? The reformation of the blade? Unlikely. At that point the power of the sword is simply to reform itself. Age should not be an issue.

So, from that we can gather that Gin's sword would work but what about battle skills? Gin is fast, but Soifon in all probability is faster. She wasn't travelling at shunpo speeds when caught though as Omaeda was travelling along side meaning that we would be comparing Gin to Omaeda speed instead and I think we can gather that Gin would be faster.

Meaning the battle becomes 'Gin + Zan powers' Vs. Barragan trickery.

Gin in my opinion probably would win.

Random101
December 03, 2010, 10:06 PM
And how would it reform if it's continually aging? Hell would it even stay together in that scenario as opposed to just scattering to the winds never to reform again? And is it also immune in sword state? Frankly while it's fine to have a conclusion, that one there isn't remotely set in stone, a LOT of things could go horribly wrong in the process, and it wouldn't change that even if the sword isn't affected, Gin certainly is, and the issue of there being no place to actually inject the poison also remains. Meaning Gin might be reduced to having to poke him to death.

And considering Baragon lives with half his face blown off... yeah... >>

Frankly if Barragon could age Soifon's bankai I'd say Zanpakuto are pretty screwed in the first place, though that's just me. I will say though if there is a way to inject the poison, Gin probably has one of the easiest ways to actually kill Barragon, so long as bare minimum it's near the head enough to melt it all away or whatever it did.

Lunatic Scream
December 03, 2010, 11:32 PM
Couple of points:
1) If Gin's bankai is a traditional poison, that must be absorbed through the skin or gut or otherwise integrated into the bloodstream... well... then it is useless for obvious reasons.
2) Gin did mention his "poison" destroys organisms on a cellular level, and, yes, bones do have cells, so it could still function, but it seems kinda sketchy, considering Gin's "sure-fire kill" was to plant it in Aizen's heart. However, do spirit beings really have cells? Maybe they're spirit cells so it wouldn't even be all that different? Science fails here.

Gin can extend his zanpakuto pretty quickly, and it has a long range. But it's really not that fast. Ichigo was able to parry it. Barragan can disolve Kido, and other zanpakutos, almost the instant they come in contact with his respira. Respira was shown to take time to tear through Hachi's kido, but I think we can agree Gin's zanpakuto, which functions by breaking itself down into smaller pieces in the first place, wouldn't have that kind of durability.

Like most of these fights it comes down to who you think should win. I think Barragan should. Gin wasn't really anything special outside of an unnerving sinister personality and a few sneak attacks.

kulash05
December 04, 2010, 12:01 AM
Couple of points:
1) If Gin's bankai is a traditional poison, that must be absorbed through the skin or gut or otherwise integrated into the bloodstream... well... then it is useless for obvious reasons.
2) Gin did mention his "poison" destroys organisms on a cellular level, and, yes, bones do have cells, so it could still function, but it seems kinda sketchy, considering Gin's "sure-fire kill" was to plant it in Aizen's heart. However, do spirit beings really have cells? Maybe they're spirit cells so it wouldn't even be all that different? Science fails here.

Gin can extend his zanpakuto pretty quickly, and it has a long range. But it's really not that fast. Ichigo was able to parry it. Barragan can disolve Kido, and other zanpakutos, almost the instant they come in contact with his respira. Respira was shown to take time to tear through Hachi's kido, but I think we can agree Gin's zanpakuto, which functions by breaking itself down into smaller pieces in the first place, wouldn't have that kind of durability.

Like most of these fights it comes down to who you think should win. I think Barragan should. Gin wasn't really anything special outside of an unnerving sinister personality and a few sneak attacks.

Poisons can be given into the bones, granted it's normally in the veins buried in the bones. And very little in bleach is traditional.
And from what i read, putting it in Aizen's heart to kill him actually worked. It killed Aizen and the HG brought him back to life and evolved him in such a way that it couldn't happen to him again. This time he came back with no heart to poison.

It's a pretty fast sword. Ichigo talks about how a few times he couldn't follow it. Besides, i don't think Gin was really fighting Ichigo. I think he was keeping Ichigo away from the Aizen fight because he knew he wasn't ready to face Aizen and would have been killed. So we can't use that fight as proof of anything.
I've hear this before, but i don't know what the size or the fact that it's dust have to do with it being weaker to aging. Just because something is smaller or taken apart doesn't mean it ages faster. If it's made out of the same material it should age at the same rate no matter the size. I think the one possible chance Gin would have is the size of his sword. Maybe it isn't the 13 Km he said it was, (i read those passages as saying he was lying about that was what was so deadly about his sword. Kind of like what he did with Ichigo, telling him about the length so he wouldn't think about the speed. ) but it is a very long sword and that's a lot of matter to age and break down. So maybe if he just kept feeding him sword, Barragan couldn't keep up and finally get hit.
But if that doesn't work, i see no hope for Gin

Primecut
December 04, 2010, 02:21 AM
Or it could be the speed of sound and nobody'd be able to tell the difference, having not measured the thing. This is the problem with adding quantifiable numbers for only one thing and nothing else, it's damn hard to compare. To say the least assuming any sort of number about Gin's bankai is literally more worthless than it was when it was actual fact way back before it was retconed a third time, the only thing reliable now is feats. And Ichigo, Mr. I can't block something Orihime can see and block for me, was dodging it with more or less ease once he knew what it did.

Time Field or Respiera, Gin's got it rough unless Barragon takes his extra strength stupid pills to say the least. And even then if Barragon's released, the hell's he going to inject the poison into?

Gin just needs to target the spinal cord really and inject some god-slaying venom into his cerebrospinal fluid. There are medications that are actually injected into the spinal fluid in a medical setting. Except in this case Gin isn't using a little needle and pain medications, he's using a Mach 500 bankai and injecting a God-Slaying poison into that spine of old Barry's. Then again, if he takes out the spine Barragan will be paralyzed anyway. Barragan won't be able to release anyway because he has to stand still for several seconds and it takes Gin only a fraction of a second to snipe him. But if Gin is feeling generous and lets him release he still has delivery options for that venom.
[hr]

I have typed ROFL many times, heck I even say the acronym like its a word of its own, but my god ... this sentence, never have I laughed so hard that I was actually compelled to lose control over my body to the point of rolling on the floor. Ranting aside, that analogy makes no sense.

Secondly you did not refute any points I made with arguements, you just made statements. If 500 and 100 are indistuingishable, then why can't it be bluffed? And if I recall correctly, at above mach 25-ish-maybe, atmosphere begins to combust, or in laymen terms, go boom, so do you not feel a tad silly with the wanton throwing around of measurements like mach 500 or 400, or even 499:eyeroll?

PS: fat is lost when beef is cooked, not water

Well, to be technical fat and water is lost. You ever see the steam coming off your food when you cook it? Anyway, do you really think that the author is going to show the atmosphere being set ablaze by Gin's bankai? If you've read comics you'd see that characters moving near light speeds don't set the atmosphere on fire. Heck, other mangas dont even depict this effect such as One Piece when Kizaru moves light speed. So why cant we all just give Gin the fastest attack feat that he obviously earned. He still didnt take away the claim that it is the fastest zanpakto and no one has shown a faster one. So how does a slowpoke like Barragan react to the fastest attacks in Bleach?

Random101
December 04, 2010, 03:37 AM
Heck, other mangas dont even depict this effect such as One Piece when Kizaru moves light speed.
Kizaru IS light, when he's shifted he has no substance. That's the most basic property of Logia.

As for the rest, Gin did not earn any sort of fastest attack feat. He claimed it was absurdly fast, and then a character whose been severly lacking in speed for ages was able to reliably dodge and block the thing. 'Giving' him a feat he earned would imply he earned it in the first place. His sword is definitely fast, that much is obvious. Fastest however would imply it's not dodgable, much less blockable. That means a physical person could keep up, and by extension their attacks are faster.

Meaning someone who actually has insane speed feats, ie: Someone who outpaced the bloody Goddess of Flash would logically be faster still.

And that person couldn't touch sealed Barragon. By extension using that logic, Gin's got no hope in either state. Bar again, extreme stupidity.

Primecut
December 04, 2010, 04:59 AM
Kizaru IS light, when he's shifted he has no substance. That's the most basic property of Logia.

As for the rest, Gin did not earn any sort of fastest attack feat. He claimed it was absurdly fast, and then a character whose been severly lacking in speed for ages was able to reliably dodge and block the thing. 'Giving' him a feat he earned would imply he earned it in the first place. His sword is definitely fast, that much is obvious. Fastest however would imply it's not dodgable, much less blockable. That means a physical person could keep up, and by extension their attacks are faster.

Meaning someone who actually has insane speed feats, ie: Someone who outpaced the bloody Goddess of Flash would logically be faster still.

And that person couldn't touch sealed Barragon. By extension using that logic, Gin's got no hope in either state. Bar again, extreme stupidity.

Well, Raleigh and Marco intercepted Kizaru's light speed attacks and they didn't set the atmosphere on fire by moving that fast.

Back on topic...in terms of being the fastest zanpakto, I've not yet seen a candidate for a faster attack. If you guys know of one be sure to post those scans. Ichigo was simply predicting where the sword would go and moving his sword to that spot before Gin launched it. Barragan wasnt able to predict Hachigen putting the arm inside him by pointing at him. Technically Barragan could have moved while the transfer was going on but he stood still pondering what was going on. Since he has shown poor predictive abilities in the past, he gets tagged with the first Bankai launch Gin performs. Gin has had Barragan at sword point before in Barragan's flashback, meaning he can be beaten by a sword.

Random101
December 04, 2010, 05:33 AM
Well, Raleigh and Marco intercepted Kizaru's light speed attacks and they didn't set the atmosphere on fire by moving that fast.
He has some kind of shifting state he goes into before he goes full on light speed (The path of light trick he does) that takes time.


I've not yet seen a candidate for a faster attack.
The slow ass HM Arc Bankai Ichigo's sword movements, being able to block the fastest sword in time before it could reach him, to name the most obvious and only directly comparable choice. Respiera, being able to catch Soifon, who's a cut ahead of Yoruichi who is the 'Goddess of Flash'. Starrk in general, being able to literally vanish from Bankai Ichigo's sight while carrying a person no less. And those are just the most obvious ones.


Ichigo was simply predicting where the sword would go and moving his sword to that spot before Gin launched it.
You're inferring this, this isn't necessarily what happened. While a valid interpretation, and indeed the one I held prior to Gin's Bankai being changed again, that means Gin can't launch it fast enough to hit someone as slow as Ichigo. This despite him actually trying to hit, given Gin's own thoughts on the matter.


Barragan wasnt able to predict Hachigen putting the arm inside him by pointing at him.
Wat? He pointed at him AFTER he transferred the arm, and did the transfer behind his back so he didn't even see it vanish. Your examples simply don't work dude.

Sevenheadedmirror
December 04, 2010, 02:53 PM
Please, Time vs Poison? Gin, I like him more but he has no chance but for Kubo's popularity shielding (Hitsugaya)

kulash05
December 04, 2010, 07:53 PM
Barragan does have one major flaw and weakness that no one seem to notice. It's his own attack respira. One contact by a weapon or object effected by respira and he's as good as dead. Just a tiny scratch from a sword that has started to decay and he will begin to decay also.
The best chance for Gin to win, is to extend his sword at top speed (whatever that may be, still pretty fast) into a respira and hope that it's fast enough that it doesn't totally decay before nicking barragan. Course after the fight I think Gin would lose his sword.

Primecut
December 05, 2010, 06:48 PM
Barragan does have one major flaw and weakness that no one seem to notice. It's his own attack respira. One contact by a weapon or object effected by respira and he's as good as dead. Just a tiny scratch from a sword that has started to decay and he will begin to decay also.
The best chance for Gin to win, is to extend his sword at top speed (whatever that may be, still pretty fast) into a respira and hope that it's fast enough that it doesn't totally decay before nicking barragan. Course after the fight I think Gin would lose his sword.

I'll bet Gin realizes that weakness better than anyone. He knows how strong Barragan is, heck, he had Barragan at his mercy in those flash backs. Even if he loses his sword beating Barragan down he can still get it back since it is part of his own spirit.

Exodi
December 05, 2010, 07:43 PM
I'll bet Gin realizes that weakness better than anyone. He knows how strong Barragan is, heck, he had Barragan at his mercy in those flash backs. Even if he loses his sword beating Barragan down he can still get it back since it is part of his own spirit.

...What are you talking about?

1. Aizen was the one who had Barragan at his mercy.
2. Gin was busy cutting up hollows while Barragan was under Aizen's illusion.

http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-chapter-384-page-14.html

I think you're going off of what the anime portrayed, which....I wouldn't use to make a point.

You could guess that Gin and Tousen could have cut Barragan down, but then you have to consider his abilities, which makes that situation not as likely to happen as one would think.

Point is.....you make it sound as if Barragan was groveling at Gin's feet, which....lol, no.

Hystzen
December 07, 2010, 06:28 PM
IMO i even wonder would Aizen beat a serious released Barragan using repira to kill. nevermind Gin.

Takahashi
December 07, 2010, 06:38 PM
IMO i even wonder would Aizen beat a serious released Barragan using repira to kill. nevermind Gin.

I've always wondered that as well, because illusion or not, Respira is faster than Soi Fon, and can cover a VERY wide area. If he was certain Aizen was near, he should have let 'er rip.

Hystzen
December 07, 2010, 06:44 PM
I've always wondered that as well, because illusion or not, Respira is faster than Soi Fon, and can cover a VERY wide area. If he was certain Aizen was near, he should have let 'er rip.

http://mangahelpers.com/forum/showthread.php?t=60840

i did a Aizen vs Barragan ages ago people all said Aizen wins easily some even claim one shot :blink

Gin is fast i know he lied but his attack still moves fast but even then barragan took a soi fon nuke to skull and didnt moan or flinch with half his skull hanging off so Gin stab if hit him would not kill him.

kulash05
December 08, 2010, 12:41 AM
Gin is fast i know he lied but his attack still moves fast but even then barragan took a soi fon nuke to skull and didnt moan or flinch with half his skull hanging off so Gin stab if hit him would not kill him.

I made this point before that should be considered, but any sword infected with respira would becomes very dangerous. Anything that it even scratches is suddenly starting to rot away. And just as a rough guess, let's say it takes 4 seconds to rot a normal length blade, well Gin's shikai is like a 100 swords, meaning it would be 400 seconds, or about 6 minutes. Plenty of times to nick him. And then you remember that his bankai is a couple of miles, giving him a lot of time.

Takahashi
December 08, 2010, 12:43 AM
I made this point before that should be considered, but any sword infected with respira would becomes very dangerous. Anything that it even scratches is suddenly starting to rot away. And just as a rough guess, let's say it takes 4 seconds to rot a normal length blade, well Gin's shikai is like a 100 swords, meaning it would be 400 seconds, or about 6 minutes. Plenty of times to nick him. And then you remember that his bankai is a couple of miles, giving him a lot of time.


Correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought the whole idea was that Barragan is protected from his own Respira naturally on the outside. The only reason Hachi's trick worked was because it affected him internally.

Jackk
December 08, 2010, 12:53 AM
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought the whole idea was that Barragan is protected from his own Respira naturally on the outside. The only reason Hachi's trick worked was because it affected him internally.

I'm pretty sure you're correct. Hachi's tactic worked because he teleported the respira infected arm encased in a barrier inside Barragan. His insides are vulnerable to his own power, only his outer body is not.

http://read.mangashare.com/Bleach/chapter-370/page016.html

Hachi destroyed Barragan from the inside out, using Barragan's own power basically.

Takahashi
December 08, 2010, 01:46 AM
That's what I thought.

@kulash05

On the 4 second rough guess, well that couldn't be further from the true capabilities of Respira. If Respira could only erode a sword length every 4 seconds, well he'd have died before Hachi even entered the fight.

When she fired it at point blank range in an encased area, Barragan was able to age essentially all of it, and his biggest wound was to his ego. An explosion that nearly blows the Kido barrier apart was aged so fast that Barragan was barely touched.

He can CLEARLY age Gin's sword much quicker than you're suggesting, and even if for whatever reason a piece reaches him, well it'll have to be basically in his core to even have a shot.

Simply put, Gin's got worse odds than Soi Fon does, because unlike her, his actual ability cannot hurt Barragan at all, and IF he attempts this gamble, if he doesn't kill on the first stab, he won't have a sword anymore to try again.

vizardichigo
December 08, 2010, 02:20 AM
Gin wins...I cant see Barragan winning this fight...Gin's bankai destroys even bones...And i think Aizen, Tosen while released and Gin were stronger than all 10 espada...So IMO that's an automatic win for him...Barragan wouldnt be easy, but i just cant see him winning

El Samurai Guapo
December 08, 2010, 02:25 AM
That's what I thought.

@kulash05

On the 4 second rough guess, well that couldn't be further from the true capabilities of Respira. If Respira could only erode a sword length every 4 seconds, well he'd have died before Hachi even entered the fight.


Well respira seemed like it took more than 4 seconds to decay Soi Fons arm.

thedarkoneaox
December 08, 2010, 03:11 AM
Its a win for Gin, no matter how anyone tries to slice this. Lets look at a few key points that are being overlooked for some reason.
1. People bring up the fact that Gin hit Aizen with his bankai and it only destroyed a little bit of his body.
2. Barragan's powers are over time, not only does he slow down time, but he also speeds it up.
3. Barragan's powers are already known to Gin, however Barragan knows nothing about Gin's powers.
Now out of all of these the main most important one is 1. See the most important thing to remember about all of this is, Soi Fon and Hachi survived Barragan's respira because they had time to remove the body part that was infected. Aizen survived Gin's bankai not because it was weak but because Hougyoku healed most of his wound instantly. He tanked GT, and even his own power didnt do much damage to him. Look at it, he even got thru FGT and was healing up as Ichigo walked over. So for Gin to have destroyed almost his whole chest, and part of his collarbone you can't take that lightly. Not saying Barragan gonna be a walk in the park, but in the end Gin's patience vs Barragan's arrogance, Gin walking away with the W.

Hystzen
December 08, 2010, 09:17 AM
its not the speed of repira that is key it the fact

HE TOOK SOI FON BANKAI TO THE FACE

missing half his skull he still carried on like it never happened

so what would a stab from Gin do.

WhisperPL
December 08, 2010, 09:32 AM
Speed is nothing compared to time. 500 mach speed? 1000 mach speed? who care it can be even 5000 mach but if you can slow down time it will be slow if you wish. End of story.

Takahashi
December 08, 2010, 09:38 AM
Well respira seemed like it took more than 4 seconds to decay Soi Fons arm.

That's not the same though.

Respira just touched her and stopped pursuing her, then it decayed slowly. If Respira is making contact, whatever is in there is pretty much instantaneously gone.

http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-chapter-370-page-11.html

Not to mention him decaying that massive explosion, clearly when Respira is actually making contact, it's effects are much greater.
[hr]

Speed is nothing compared to time. 500 mach speed? 1000 mach speed? who care it can be even 5000 mach but if you can slow down time it will be slow if you wish. End of story.

End of story? Your numbers are even worse than Primecut's.
[hr]

Its a win for Gin, no matter how anyone tries to slice this. Lets look at a few key points that are being overlooked for some reason.
1. People bring up the fact that Gin hit Aizen with his bankai and it only destroyed a little bit of his body.
2. Barragan's powers are over time, not only does he slow down time, but he also speeds it up.
3. Barragan's powers are already known to Gin, however Barragan knows nothing about Gin's powers.
Now out of all of these the main most important one is 1. See the most important thing to remember about all of this is, Soi Fon and Hachi survived Barragan's respira because they had time to remove the body part that was infected. Aizen survived Gin's bankai not because it was weak but because Hougyoku healed most of his wound instantly. He tanked GT, and even his own power didnt do much damage to him. Look at it, he even got thru FGT and was healing up as Ichigo walked over. So for Gin to have destroyed almost his whole chest, and part of his collarbone you can't take that lightly. Not saying Barragan gonna be a walk in the park, but in the end Gin's patience vs Barragan's arrogance, Gin walking away with the W.

Gin's ability is a poison. Barragan has nothing with which to be affected by poison.

Truu
December 08, 2010, 12:22 PM
Gin's ability is a poison. Barragan has nothing with which to be affected by poison.

Qft.

C'mon, Barragan is not a flesh and blood creature, what could the poison do with him? It would be useless, and hell, Gin hasn't got any technique which is stronger than Soifon's bankai.

Barragan rapestomps.

conn-man
December 08, 2010, 12:26 PM
Imo barragans bones should be affected by the poison, Aizens bones melted along with the rest of his body. But, gins poison seems to have a limited area of effect, as in, it stops. Like hyst(zen, formerly gundam) said, barragan took the nuke and it blew half his body, and skull, away. So in theory, even if barragan takes a poisoning that melts some of his bones, he should be able to keep fighting.

Takahashi
December 08, 2010, 12:47 PM
Imo barragans bones should be affected by the poison, Aizens bones melted along with the rest of his body. But, gins poison seems to have a limited area of effect, as in, it stops. Like hyst(zen, formerly gundam) said, barragan took the nuke and it blew half his body, and skull, away. So in theory, even if barragan takes a poisoning that melts some of his bones, he should be able to keep fighting.

However, the fact that Barragan is bones and is living is enough proof that he isn't like Aizen, or anyone else for that matter. Aizen's chest was essentially "blown" apart, I wouldn't say melted. Considering Barragan, unlike anyone else, can live just fine with half of a face, I'd say he's not that easy to kill.

conn-man
December 08, 2010, 02:54 PM
However, the fact that Barragan is bones and is living is enough proof that he isn't like Aizen, or anyone else for that matter. Aizen's chest was essentially "blown" apart, I wouldn't say melted. Considering Barragan, unlike anyone else, can live just fine with half of a face, I'd say he's not that easy to kill.

Heck yeah he's hard to kill, judging from the nuke damage barragan might just be one of the most durable people in bleach. Even without respira he would be dangerous.

And I just said melted because it looked like an acid effect that gins poison had, like it eroded to a limited area. Very dangerous for anyone but barragan.

Takahashi
December 08, 2010, 06:42 PM
I always interpreted it as something that spread through a section of the body, and when released by the command "kill" kind of blew up. I haven't seen what the anime has done with it (if they have gotten there) but I was always under the impression that it was more of an internal rupture than it was a decay.

Omiem
December 08, 2010, 07:14 PM
Gin's sword can literally just pass right through Barragan if Respira isn't involve. Kind of like how Kenpachi's sword pass through Nnoitra's head.

holyknick2
December 08, 2010, 07:49 PM
This is bugging me a bit, is Respira a aging technique or a decaying technique?

Because if its aging, then normally Gin's particale base bankai would most likely not be immdiately affect by it, and if it touches (I mean pierce or something) Barragan in any way then it's like the Hachi win all over again.

If it is decaying then Gin is type screwed. :(

Takahashi
December 08, 2010, 08:44 PM
This is bugging me a bit, is Respira a aging technique or a decaying technique?

Because if its aging, then normally Gin's particale base bankai would most likely not be immdiately affect by it, and if it touches (I mean pierce or something) Barragan in any way then it's like the Hachi win all over again.

If it is decaying then Gin is type screwed. :(

It's age, and everything ages. Gin's poison still has an expiration date. Barragan said it himself, Kido may last for 1000 years, but it's still not forever *he says as he decays a barrier in seconds*

holyknick2
December 08, 2010, 09:02 PM
It's age, and everything ages. Gin's poison still has an expiration date. Barragan said it himself, Kido may last for 1000 years, but it's still not forever *he says as he decays a barrier in seconds*

No, I didn't mean Gin's poison. I meant that Gin's bankai could potentially hit Barragan before it aged to nothing (which wouldn't happen normally but this is Kubo's Logic so not sure about it) and in that case it would be Barragan dying by his own tech again.

I mean this is why I kind of wasn't sure about it, as Gin Bankai would be doomed had it been a decaying ability.

Takahashi
December 08, 2010, 09:07 PM
No, I didn't mean Gin's poison. I meant that Gin's bankai could potentially hit Barragan before it aged to nothing (which wouldn't happen normally but this is Kubo's Logic so not sure about it) and in that case it would be Barragan dying by his own tech again.

I mean this is why I kind of wasn't sure about it, as Gin Bankai would be doomed had it been a decaying ability.

I'm confused, what exactly is different about it decaying and it aging? This is a very VERY rapid aging, they're both basically the same thing, but Barragan uses the word aging specifically.

holyknick2
December 08, 2010, 09:29 PM
I'm confused, what exactly is different about it decaying and it aging? This is a very VERY rapid aging, they're both basically the same thing, but Barragan uses the word aging specifically.

Decaying is basically when something is forcefully broken down, while aging is when something grows weaker on its own and wears down.

You're right in context that its the same thing technically but how its done is different and could determine such things as its ability to destroy Gin's zanpakuto.

If Barragan power was decay, Gin's Shiaki/Bankai would have broken down completely on contact and been reduce to nothing. Even if the were particles it wouldn't stand a chance.

Since its aging, the process that takes place is different (even though its very, very rapid aging) and Gin's bankai would break down quickly but since they're particles anyway, the effect takes longer (not much longer but long enough with the sword's speed to hit and at least possible nick or pierce Barragan.)

Takahashi
December 08, 2010, 09:33 PM
Decaying is basically when something is forcefully broken down, while aging is when something grows weaker on its own and wears down.

You're right in context that its the same thing technically but how its done is different and could determine such things as its ability to destroy Gin's zanpakuto.

If Barragan power was decay, Gin's Shiaki/Bankai would have broken down completely on contact and been reduce to nothing. Even if the were particles it wouldn't stand a chance.

Since its aging, the process that takes place is different (even though its very, very rapid aging) and Gin's bankai would break down quickly but since they're particles anyway, the effect takes longer (not much longer but long enough with the sword's speed to hit and at least possible nick or pierce Barragan.)

I kind of see what you're saying, but that's a pretty big "if".

No matter what way you slice it, it's an incredibly big gamble AND he only has one shot at it. The odds are deep in Barragan's favor.

holyknick2
December 08, 2010, 09:46 PM
I kind of see what you're saying, but that's a pretty big "if".

No matter what way you slice it, it's an incredibly big gamble AND he only has one shot at it. The odds are deep in Barragan's favor.

I know, it was just something I thought about and wanted an answer too.

Thanks.

kulash05
December 08, 2010, 10:15 PM
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought the whole idea was that Barragan is protected from his own Respira naturally on the outside. The only reason Hachi's trick worked was because it affected him internally.

Yeah, you know I'll admit that my idea is based on my own assumption that the protect was like a shield and Hachi put the Respira on the other side of the shield. So I could see how Gin sword could pierce his shield and carry over the Respira.

Omiem
December 08, 2010, 10:17 PM
Barragan's constant TDF will slow down the speed of Gin's bankai automatically, which will give Barry plenty of time to disintegrate the blade whether he uses decay or aging.

kulash05
December 08, 2010, 10:26 PM
That's what I thought.

@kulash05

On the 4 second rough guess, well that couldn't be further from the true capabilities of Respira. If Respira could only erode a sword length every 4 seconds, well he'd have died before Hachi even entered the fight.

When she fired it at point blank range in an encased area, Barragan was able to age essentially all of it, and his biggest wound was to his ego. An explosion that nearly blows the Kido barrier apart was aged so fast that Barragan was barely touched.

He can CLEARLY age Gin's sword much quicker than you're suggesting, and even if for whatever reason a piece reaches him, well it'll have to be basically in his core to even have a shot.

Simply put, Gin's got worse odds than Soi Fon does, because unlike her, his actual ability cannot hurt Barragan at all, and IF he attempts this gamble, if he doesn't kill on the first stab, he won't have a sword anymore to try again.

Well I don't think it has to reach his core, and i totally admit that the 4 second was really just a guess. But i totally agree on everything but the core. His odds are not very good at all and it's a completely risky gamble that would have negative side effects. I personally think Barragan would win, but my idea about the tiny nick is the best chance Gin would have.
[hr]

However, the fact that Barragan is bones and is living is enough proof that he isn't like Aizen, or anyone else for that matter. Aizen's chest was essentially "blown" apart, I wouldn't say melted. Considering Barragan, unlike anyone else, can live just fine with half of a face, I'd say he's not that easy to kill.

It was decaying. If you look on page 7 of chapter 415, you can see that it's the classic decay effect. The reason it was (in my mind) that it seemed to be a small area was because Gin ran out of the area and we didn't get to watch it keep decaying. Then the HG steps in and stops it and heals Aizen. I think if it was any one normal there would have been nothing left.

holyknick2
December 09, 2010, 09:31 AM
Barragan's constant TDF will slow down the speed of Gin's bankai automatically, which will give Barry plenty of time to disintegrate the blade whether he uses decay or aging.

Again, although I got my answer already, the process of decaying and aging are different.

Gin's particle based bankai would last longer against an aging power (the zanpakuto would rapidly break apart, which is its ability in a sense anyway) than a decaying power which would have forcibly destroyed the sword.

Meaning that even slowed down it should last long enough that it should somehow affect Barragan. (As I said this normally would be the case, but its Kubo logic so I'm not going to argue the point)

Crystal Black
December 09, 2010, 12:20 PM
I'm sure Gin can outsmart Barragan. But this particular match up is his worse possibly. It all depends on the sheer force of his Zan. Gin's as sneaky as they come it may be possible for a Buto distraction, and then taking advantage with Kamishini's real ability, but seems unlikely because Barragan had nothing to worry about while inside of Respira.

Hystzen
December 09, 2010, 01:25 PM
Gin has a major weakness against respira.

Gin said his zan turns to dust as it moves forward and can leave a piece inside.

so his zan aint solid as it moves forward respira would work fast on dust particles then a solid zan slowly eroding

kulash05
December 09, 2010, 06:56 PM
Gin has a major weakness against respira.

Gin said his zan turns to dust as it moves forward and can leave a piece inside.

so his zan aint solid as it moves forward respira would work fast on dust particles then a solid zan slowly eroding

I believe that his blade is only dust right before it extends, or returns to normal. Otherwise it couldn't pierce anything. So, he releases, turns to dust, solidifies, extends, hits target, he calls it back, turns to dust (leaving poison), shrinks back to normal

ShootToKill
May 05, 2011, 07:22 PM
If Barragan starts off released, Gin is in trouble. If he doesn't, I don't believe he would be able to react sufficiently fast to Gin's Bankai to use his time slowing ability. Gin could take this if he acts fast enough, but the question is whether he would feel the need to go Bankai immediately.

HaouLelouch
May 06, 2011, 09:18 AM
I don't understand how people assume Gin's bankai is dodgeable just because he lied about its speed. since when did 500 times the speed of sound mean anything in the first place.

Ichigo couldn't dodge the extension of the blade at all, and he couldn't react to the contraction either. Ichigo only dodged normal swipe attacks in cases when Kamishini no yari was already extended. Gin was also able to fight on par with bankai/+mask for a little while Ichigo who at this point had over twice the reiatsu of a captain.

Takahashi
May 07, 2011, 03:36 AM
I don't understand how people assume Gin's bankai is dodgeable just because he lied about its speed. since when did 500 times the speed of sound mean anything in the first place.

Ichigo couldn't dodge the extension of the blade at all, and he couldn't react to the contraction either. Ichigo only dodged normal swipe attacks in cases when Kamishini no yari was already extended. Gin was also able to fight on par with bankai/+mask for a little while Ichigo who at this point had over twice the reiatsu of a captain.

That would be a good point, IF the particular Ichigo he was fighting not been the garbage version. 2X Captain Reiatsu means nothing when you have no resolve and inner world instability, both of which played havoc on that version of Ichigo, to the point that Gin even teased him for his Shikai SS self being scarier.

Ichigo has ALWAYS been dependent on resolve, it's the reason for all of his wins against powerful opponents, and without it, he's pathetic.

HaouLelouch
May 07, 2011, 08:49 AM
Ichigo started to lose his resolve when Aizen went condom mode, before that his dad beat some sense into him. Before Aizen's reiatsu started going transcendental ichigo couldn't react to kamishini no yari's extension/contraction.

White Silver King
May 07, 2011, 03:54 PM
I'd give it to Gin. Yeah, Barragan has his Time Dilation Field but it's not instantaneous and something going the speed of Gin's bankai (even if it isn't Mach 500) would still be fast enough with the time degradation to take his head off.

Takahashi
May 07, 2011, 07:41 PM
Ichigo started to lose his resolve when Aizen went condom mode, before that his dad beat some sense into him. Before Aizen's reiatsu started going transcendental ichigo couldn't react to kamishini no yari's extension/contraction.

That was still garbage Ichigo. Ichigo's power is pathetic when his inner world is unstable, and not only was it unstable, it was completely fucked. We saw that it rains when it's in bad condition, and the damn place was completely flooded. He was clearly a fraction of his former self.

That being said, Gin was going easy on him too, so it's impossible to gauge exactly.

cracker
May 08, 2011, 12:20 PM
That was still garbage Ichigo. Ichigo's power is pathetic when his inner world is unstable, and not only was it unstable, it was completely fucked. We saw that it rains when it's in bad condition, and the damn place was completely flooded. He was clearly a fraction of his former self.

That being said, Gin was going easy on him too, so it's impossible to gauge exactly.

Flooded is an understatement, deluged is a better word. Either way I agree, whole skyscrapers were covered under water. I think its safe to say that Ichigo was definitely not an emotional rock.

kamakazi_1996
May 08, 2011, 05:00 PM
i think gin could take this, barragan hasn't shown any speed feats so i doubt he could avoid gins blade,

i see this happening:

barragan:respira!!!! *blade pierces his chest* (turns around and sees gin grinning from a safe distance)
gin:betcha you didn't see that comin did ya, "Kill" Kamishini no Yari
*barragan falls with a hole in his chest*

gins poison can carrode bones too i think, aizen didn't have any bones when the poison entered him