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View Full Version : Fantasy Kuchiki Byakuya vs. Otouribashi Rose



El Samurai Guapo
November 30, 2010, 10:46 PM
http://bestuff.com/images/images_of_stuff/210x600/rjr-otoribashi-aka-rose-192141.jpg?1235600339
Rose

vs.

http://i297.photobucket.com/albums/mm239/TenshiK9/KuchikiByakuya1.png
Byakuya

Both fight using shikai only.

Fight takes place in the middle of the desert in Hueco Mundo. Kidou is disregarded as we don't know Rose's proficiency or stats in that area (though he seems like the type who's adept at it).

I realize this may be slightly uneven at this point since we've seen very very little from Rose. His bankai is still a mystery, we've only seen one of his apparently many "sonatas," and we have know idea how effective his musical hypnotism jutsu is.

I say it would be close, but izayoi bara seems like a very good ability for dispersing senbonzakura. That leaves Byakuya open to getting hit by Rose's whip (which backed by the mask should be plenty forceful). Shikai Ichigo was also still standing after taking a direct hit from senbonzakura kageyoshi, so Rose should be able to tank quite a bit of it.

Takahashi
November 30, 2010, 11:40 PM
Scenario 1: Honestly, ever since Ichigo cut clean through Senbonzakura (Even though it was super unstoppable resolved Ichigo) I've not been too impressed with Byakuya's Shikai, and it explains why he hasn't used it much. With Byakuya not allowed to use Kido, he's losing one of his greatest assets. Thing is, Rose can't use Hollowfication either, and his Shikai isn't exactly all that impressive on its own either.

However, Byakuya takes it. Haven't seen enough from Rose to justify him winning even with Byakuya's disadvantage.

Scenario 2: HM gives a pretty substantial boost to Rose's mask, probably allowing him to use it for the entire fight without losing it, and he'll be faster and stronger too. Again however, even with the lack of Kido usage, Byakuya's Bankai is just too good. He can be defensive when he needs to be, and have an unbelievably good offense with Senkei when he needs to as well. With Rose only being allowed to use what we've seen, he's got a couple nice moves and explosions, but nothing that would kill Byakuya in this form. He'd give him some difficulty, he was a captain after all, and a mask boost is nice, but lack of moves that we can confidently say will kill a captain = a loss.

conn-man
December 01, 2010, 12:17 AM
Rose is still one of those characters that need more time to show their stuff. I believe he has some nice tricks that are useful but for now byakuyas versatility and strength are to much. The mask will provide defense but rose has shown only one attack that looks managable. So for now rose doesn't look like he can hurt byakuya enough to win.

El Samurai Guapo
December 01, 2010, 12:57 AM
Scenario 2: HM gives a pretty substantial boost to Rose's mask, probably allowing him to use it for the entire fight without losing it, and he'll be faster and stronger too. Again however, even with the lack of Kido usage, Byakuya's Bankai is just too good. He can be defensive when he needs to be, and have an unbelievably good offense with Senkei when he needs to as well. With Rose only being allowed to use what we've seen, he's got a couple nice moves and explosions, but nothing that would kill Byakuya in this form. He'd give him some difficulty, he was a captain after all, and a mask boost is nice, but lack of moves that we can confidently say will kill a captain = a loss.

Hmm, the whole mask boost in Hueco Mundo thing never occurred to me. Don't know if it's true or not, but it seems reasonable and would explain Ichigo suddenly being able to keep the mask on much longer.

As for Rose not having a way to kill Byakuya, what makes you think getting hit by Kinshara wouldn't damage him? Byakuya's is not Aizen; he's not going to catch that whip with his hands (and I doubt even Aizen could when Rose has the mask on). The fact that Rose easily finds his mark on multiple wolves (http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-chapter-386-page-9.html)(which were pretty damn fast themselves) tells me he wouldn't have much trouble tagging Byakuya with Kinshara. It seems like he can change the length of Kinshara at will (not unlike Renji's shikai). Moreover, I think it's pretty safe to say this attack would be plenty damaging:
http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-chapter-386-page-11.html
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=staFkD7y_Ag
There's no way Byakuya comes out unscathed from an attack like that. That ability is art, you know?

There's also technique he used to rip apart the menos with what looked like some invisible strings. And if Hiyori can shoot ceros, I see no reason why Rose can't.

If anything, I'd say it's Byakuya who, outside of senkei or that concentrated final form, would have a difficult time gravely injuring hollow Rose. In fact I'm not so sure about the latter since it easily lost to a non hollowfied Getsuga Tenshou. Byakuya using all 1000 senkei swords is the only way I see him winning. I doubt a barrage of base-form bankai cherry blossoms comes anywhere near the damage of multiple spirit wolves (which I would really enjoy seeing Byakuya attempt to fend off with nothing but his shikai).

Oh and no matter what some people on here think, Rose lasted 10 mins in a small barrier with the same bankai hollow Ichigo than almost killed Byakuya, while having to avoid killing it to boot.

ninjabot
December 01, 2010, 02:03 AM
Scenario 1: Byakuya takes the win. I don't really think Rose should be considered senior captain class (AKA, Shunsui or Ukitake level) from his showings. They were more hardy thanks to their hollow masks, but I wouldn't say the power boost gained from their masks ar that impressive. I mean, we saw them take out Menos (which any captain can do), and we saw them wound Starrk (Love atleast. And it took his mask to do so).

Since Rose gets no mask in this fight, and Byakuya gets no kidou, it's shikai vs. shikai. And Senbonzakura can attack every angle, but Kinshara is only one whip. No way in hell he's deflecting every petal in one go without being shredded. Likewise, Byakuya's utsusemi wasn't taken out Byakuya can lure the whip to it's longest distance, allow himself to get hit, then appear behind Rose before he has a chance to counter.

For the second scenario, Byakuya wins again. I doubt Rose's mask gives him durability on the level of released Yammi, and since he's got the second strongest Hierro, and Byakuya could shred his face no problem (with the weakest form of his bankai no less), Rose isn't tanking anything.

Though it's true he could blow away his petals with Izayoi Bara, but not nearly all of them. Not to mention he had to connect with a target before Izayoi Bara could emit it's soundwave. And I doubt he'd use that attack if the petals were already close by. Wouldn't wanna cause a soundwave exploding close to his own body.

Byakuya wins.

El Samurai Guapo
December 01, 2010, 02:58 AM
Since Rose gets no mask in this fight, and Byakuya gets no kidou, it's shikai vs. shikai. And Senbonzakura can attack every angle, but Kinshara is only one whip. No way in hell he's deflecting every petal in one go without being shredded.

Byakuya's shikai isn't coming remotely close to shredding anyone beyond Ganju's level. Hell, a direct-hit from his bankai (http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-chapter-161-page-17.html)was easily shrugged off by Ichigo (http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-chapter-161-page-19.html). Apparently the best senbonzakura kageyoshi's base form can do is inflict superficial damage. (1) I doubt Rose would stand still and take a full on blast of it the way Ichigo and (2) whatever does hit him will would do little more than harass a hollowfied Rose. Senkei is a different story as the blades actually skewer you.


Likewise, Byakuya's utsusemi wasn't taken out Byakuya can lure the whip to it's longest distance, allow himself to get hit, then appear behind Rose before he has a chance to counter.

Get behind him and do what? Karate chop? You realize that Byakuya's cherry blossoms don't travel with him. He's basically unarmed in shikai (and the first stage of bankai). Also, Rose fully extending Kinshara hardly means he can't defend with it. He can still block with Kinshara the same way he did against this wolf (http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-chapter-386-page-12.html). Well, actually I'm not sure if even intended to block that wolf there but you get the idea.



For the second scenario, Byakuya wins again. I doubt Rose's mask gives him durability on the level of released Yammi, and since he's got the second strongest Hierro, and Byakuya could shred his face no problem (with the weakest form of his bankai no less), Rose isn't tanking anything.

Again, Ichigo. He got hit with more senbonzakura than Yammi and slammed into the ground creating a huge crater. What happens then? He gets up smiling. Also you don't know if Yammi's first stage of release reflected his full defensive capability. In fact he couldn't have possibly had stronger heirro than Grimmjow or Ulquiorra at that stage. The fact that Ichigo actually cut his neck (http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-chapter-392-page-11.html) with less then half of his reiatsu remaining (http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-chapter-395-page-6.html), while at full reiatsu/strength (http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-chapter-270-page-20.html) sealed Ulquiorra could stop a much bigger GT with his bare hands is proof enough. (http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-chapter-270-page-22.html) Also, look at the way eyepatched Yammi was cutting his thick ass legs like butter. I seriously doubt he would have sliced through Grimmjow that easily with his eyepatch on and without kendo. We know Yammi got stronger and bigger at he got angrier; makes sense his defense would increase as well.


Though it's true he could blow away his petals with Izayoi Bara, but not nearly all of them. Not to mention he had to connect with a target before Izayoi Bara could emit it's soundwave. And I doubt he'd use that attack if the petals were already close by. Wouldn't wanna cause a soundwave exploding close to his own body.


Well the way I see it, when Rose attempts to attack Byakuya with Kinshara, Byakuya will block with a wall of senbonzakura. That's when Rose can use izayoi bara to disperse most of it (he doesn't need to get rid of all of it), leaving Byakuya standing there defenseless...though really Byakuya should already be dead from the blast of Rose's art.

Hybrid captain > captain.

Takahashi
December 01, 2010, 04:26 AM
Hmm, the whole mask boost in Hueco Mundo thing never occurred to me. Don't know if it's true or not, but it seems reasonable and would explain Ichigo suddenly being able to keep the mask on much longer.

I always thought that was a confirmed fact in Bleach. I could be wrong, who knows.


As for Rose not having a way to kill Byakuya, what makes you think getting hit by Kinshara wouldn't damage him? Byakuya's is not Aizen; he's not going to catch that whip with his hands (and I doubt even Aizen could when Rose has the mask on). The fact that Rose easily finds his mark on multiple wolves (http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-chapter-386-page-9.html)(which were pretty damn fast themselves) tells me he wouldn't have much trouble tagging Byakuya with Kinshara. It seems like he can change the length of Kinshara at will (not unlike Renji's shikai). Moreover, I think it's pretty safe to say this attack would be plenty damaging:
http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-chapter-386-page-11.html
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=staFkD7y_Ag
There's no way Byakuya comes out unscathed from an attack like that. That ability is art, you know?


You're misinterpreting me. I'm not saying his Shikai is incapable of injuring a captain, I'm saying that we have no proof of it's power. Blowing up a Gillian and a couple wolves doesn't prove anything on the power scale. Just saying that as of now, we have no real evidence to back up a win for him against a well established captain whom we know is very powerful.


There's also technique he used to rip apart the menos with what looked like some invisible strings. And if Hiyori can shoot ceros, I see no reason why Rose can't.

If anything, I'd say it's Byakuya who, outside of senkei or that concentrated final form, would have a difficult time gravely injuring hollow Rose. In fact I'm not so sure about the latter since it easily lost to a non hollowfied Getsuga Tenshou. Byakuya using all 1000 senkei swords is the only way I see him winning. I doubt a barrage of base-form bankai cherry blossoms comes anywhere near the damage of multiple spirit wolves (which I would really enjoy seeing Byakuya attempt to fend off with nothing but his shikai).

Oh and no matter what some people on here think, Rose lasted 10 mins in a small barrier with the same bankai hollow Ichigo than almost killed Byakuya, while having to avoid killing it to boot.

See, I don't see how comparing their Shikai's to fending off wolves to indicate in any way who's is better.

Also, you're forgetting one of the first things I said: Byakuya fought the unstoppable beastly resolved Ichigo. I hate how everyone jumps back to Ichigo's victory (sort of) over Byakuya. We all know it's crap to compare the SS arc, because by that logic, Shikai Ichigo > Kenpachi too.

Also, hollowfication would help resist damage, but Rose doesn't have HSR, which is the core advantage of hollows really. He'll take a while to chip down, but Byakuya has the advantage of being able to hit Rose from virtually every direction.

Random101
December 01, 2010, 04:29 AM
Also you don't know if Yammi's first stage of release reflected his full defensive capability.
Yammi's got the second strongest Hierro of the Espada, it's outright stated in the databook. It's well above Grimmjaw and Ulquiorra. Also you're arguing consistency with Ichigo. Don't, less headaches that way.

That being said, Byakuya's shikai sucks hard, Rose could probably take it. His bankai however is among the most balanced of all those currently revealed, bar Hyorinmaru, and his general skills are nothing to sniff at. Frankly with his current showing Rose hasn't got a chance. He'd need several more potent Sonata's before he's able to take that.

Takahashi
December 01, 2010, 04:30 AM
Well the way I see it, when Rose attempts to attack Byakuya with Kinshara, Byakuya will block with a wall of senbonzakura. That's when Rose can use izayoi bara to disperse most of it (he doesn't need to get rid of all of it), leaving Byakuya standing there defenseless...though really Byakuya should already be dead from the blast of Rose's art.

Hybrid captain > captain.

And sorry, but I can't take this even remotely seriously. His petals will not only be blown away, but Byakuya will die in the process?

Sounds almost as crazy as when Primecut said Kenpachi could cut Soi Fon's missile in half and blow the explosion away with Reiatsu.

Also, the only hybrid captain that showed promise is Shinji. The last arc was proof enough that Hybrid Captains < Captains more than anything.

Random101
December 01, 2010, 04:34 AM
Granted though it's partly because their showings were abysmal. The only one that actually achieved anything bar Mashiro punting around Wonderwiess was Hachi, and even he did it largely without the Mask (In fact what little time he did use it was ultimately worthless in the long haul). That Rose happens to be the least defined and most superfluous of the lot up there with Love doesn't exactly help.

Takahashi
December 01, 2010, 04:36 AM
Granted though it's partly because their showings were abysmal. The only one that actually achieved anything, bar Mashiro punting around Wonderwiess, was Hachi, and even he did it largely without the Mask (In fact what little time he did use it was ultimately worthless in the long haul).

He wasn't a captain, that's why I didn't include him or Mashiro, they were definitely impressive though.

And yes, their showings were bad. But if the author himself humiliates them that bad, clearly he's sending the message that they're not as great as people were hyping them to be.

Random101
December 01, 2010, 04:37 AM
Or that Kubo bunched up the arc with too many people, not enough villians, and had to get rid of them somehow.

Which is the ONLY way I can plausibly explain any of Aizen's later garbage.

Basically the Vizards didn't exactly wow this arc, bar Hachi (And that was less because Vizard, and more because LOLKIDO), so I'd wait till the next time they fight before we call anything. That Kubo completely skipped over the most interesting matchup, the Wonderwiess vs. Kensei grudge match to off panel Kensei doesn't exactly help.

Mayumura
December 01, 2010, 04:53 AM
Byakuya Cant use Kidou?
U'r joking? kidou is his main speciality, all his abilities are in combo with kidou. To cut Byakuya's kidou its like to cut one of his arms, he can pwn Rose easy. Bankai is allowed? Bakudou #61 + Gokei Senbonzakura = Bye Rose, cya.

ninjabot
December 01, 2010, 05:13 AM
Byakuya's shikai isn't coming remotely close to shredding anyone beyond Ganju's level. Hell, a direct-hit from his bankai was easily shrugged off by Ichigo. Apparently the best senbonzakura kageyoshi's base form can do is inflict superficial damage. (1) I doubt Rose would stand still and take a full on blast of it the way Ichigo and (2) whatever does hit him will would do little more than harass a hollowfied Rose. Senkei is a different story as the blades actually skewer you.


First off, we've never seen Senbonzakura hit someone besides Ganju as it's been knocked down by either a faster attack (which Rose can't produce) or a large concussive wave (that Rose isn't fast enough to produce in time), so I don't know how you came to that conclusion.

Secondly, Ichigo didn't easily shrug off anything. He was crushed into the ground, causing a crater, and was bloodied as it happened. And immediately after he told us all just how outrageously moronic it'd be to continue the fight without bankai. Had he attempted, he'd have been flayed to nothing. You also neglected to mention that it was both the weakest form of Byakuya's bankai, and was not a special attack either. He wouldn't have walked away from a Gokei.


Get behind him and do what? Karate chop? You realize that Byakuya's cherry blossoms don't travel with him. He's basically unarmed in shikai (and the first stage of bankai). Also, Rose fully extending Kinshara hardly means he can't defend with it. He can still block with Kinshara the same way he did against this wolf. Well, actually I'm not sure if even intended to block that wolf there but you get the idea.

http://www.mangafox.com/manga/bleach/v44/c382/17.html Drops zanpakto... away from Yammi, continuing forward...
http://www.mangafox.com/manga/bleach/v44/c382/18.html Arrives at Yammi with SKY no only following, but moving the same speed as he as they arrive just as he does. Wait, actually, that means they're faster than he, as they had to catch up to him. Granted it wasn't that far of a distance, but your claim was that they don't follow him. They obviously do.

So yeah, they follow him if he guides them to where he wants to move (unless he gained a "teleport zanpakuto" kidou without us knowing it). And while Rose can still block with Kinshara, he can't use Izayoi Bara because the tip is where the explosion comes from, and the tip would be far away from him when Byakuya (along with his super-fast petals) catches his blindside.



Again, Ichigo. He got hit with more senbonzakura than Yammi and slammed into the ground creating a huge crater. What happens then? He gets up smiling. Also you don't know if Yammi's first stage of release reflected his full defensive capability. In fact he couldn't have possibly had stronger heirro than Grimmjow or Ulquiorra at that stage. The fact that Ichigo actually cut his neck with less then half of his reiatsu remaining, while at full reiatsu/strength sealed Ulquiorra could stop a much bigger GT with his bare hands is proof enough. Also, look at the way eyepatched Yammi was cutting his thick ass legs like butter. I seriously doubt he would have sliced through Grimmjow that easily with his eyepatch on and without kendo. We know Yammi got stronger and bigger at he got angrier; makes sense his defense would increase as well.


Again, Ichigo WAS injured. Remember when Kenpachi was getting cut up by Noitorra and said "Huh, if I keep getting attacked like this, I'm gonna die." It's the exact same instance as what happened to Ichigo. And with ONE ATTACK, lmao. Ichigo, after being bludgeoned by one strike from SKY, opted to up the ante, because he knew without a shadow of a doubt that he, at that point, would stand absolutely no chance against a bankai wielding captain. He could not take morehits of that level. His inability to oneshot a borderline equal opponent in no way at all makes him seem weak.

As for Ichigo still injuring Yammi with less than half reiatsu, remember that Ichigo naturally has more than twice a captain's reiatsu. So at that wounded level he still had a reserve of reiatsu close to Byakuya (since he's a mid tier captain, thus...average reiatsu technically). Doesn't make Yammi's hierro look any weaker to me.



Well the way I see it, when Rose attempts to attack Byakuya with Kinshara, Byakuya will block with a wall of senbonzakura. That's when Rose can use izayoi bara to disperse most of it (he doesn't need to get rid of all of it), leaving Byakuya standing there defenseless...though really Byakuya should already be dead from the blast of Rose's art.

Hybrid captain > captain.

Dead from an attack that was already softened by a wall of SKY? Unlikely. Injured if it's close enough? Sure. But dead? You're talking about a captain who could still run at full speed with only one leg. He's tough no matter what you want to believe. Likewise, the only thing that was blown up with Izayoi were wolf-shaped Cero. Cero that were already explosive, mind you. You can't think those wolves have the same defense as Byakuya.

As for Hybrid Captains > Captains, that's only half true. For one, there isn't a single visored outside of Ichigo that could avoid getting baby-shaked by Yama. A plain old captain. Secondly, it depends on the base strength of the hybrid captain to begin with. Rose has shown no impressive strength. Impressive attacks sure, but again he blew up wolves that were already explosive... and he sang to some menos to kill them. Menos are fodder. Those wolves were fodder. Rose's only feats of strength are practically non-existant. What makes it all worse is he needed his mask to pull off these "amazing" feats.

Primecut
December 01, 2010, 05:48 AM
Hmm...actually, wouldnt we be able to assume Rose can win based on power-scaling? He was captain material when Byakuya was just a little boy. With the mask I'd assume he can stomp since Byakuya got owned by an inexperienced mask Ichigo already. I'm not saying Byakuya is weak but his resolve and durability is questionable.

El Samurai Guapo
December 01, 2010, 02:56 PM
First off, we've never seen Senbonzakura hit someone besides Ganju as it's been knocked down by either a faster attack (which Rose can't produce) or a large concussive wave (that Rose isn't fast enough to produce in time), so I don't know how you came to that conclusion.

By the fact that the bankai version, which is 10x more powerful, can't even mortally wound shikai Ichigo with a direct hit? Rose would literally have to be standing still and allow himself to be chipped at all day long for Byakuya's shikai to actually do the job.


Secondly, Ichigo didn't easily shrug off anything. He was crushed into the ground, causing a crater, and was bloodied as it happened.

When I see him emerge from it smiling and continue to fight with no problem, yeah I call that shrugging it off. It's not like releasing his bankai healed him or anything. Ichigo suffered no injuries from a direct hit from senbonzakura kageyoshi that weren't superficial; and he proceeded to fight without any problem. Being covered in blood means next to nothing in bleach. And I don't see Rose ever once taking a direct hit like that to begin with as he's faster than shikai Ichigo (all captains besides Ken and Komamura are), and probably even faster than non hollow bankai Ichigo with the mask on.


And immediately after he told us all just how outrageously moronic it'd be to continue the fight without bankai.

Yeah, because he was obviously too slow to avoid it. He would just continue to get pummeled by full waves of senbonzakura kageyoshi had he remained in shikai.


Had he attempted, he'd have been flayed to nothing.

After who knows how many volleys of the stuff though.


You also neglected to mention that it was both the weakest form of Byakuya's bankai, and was not a special attack either. He wouldn't have walked away from a Gokei.

I did mention that senkei would be totally a totally different case. I don't know about goukei though, it's pretty much the same as the first form except he surrounds his target in a sphere. What happens if Rose just breaks out of one side? We've only seen it used on some fodder espada too so who knows how deadly it really is. I could see Rose pulling off something like this: (Start watching at 4:25) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dbxFbdRf7fM
That wasn't canon, but I do believe with their masks they'd emerge from goukei with minimal damage like Ichigo did here.



http://www.mangafox.com/manga/bleach/v44/c382/17.html Drops zanpakto... away from Yammi, continuing forward...
http://www.mangafox.com/manga/bleach/v44/c382/18.html Arrives at Yammi with SKY no only following, but moving the same speed as he as they arrive just as he does. Wait, actually, that means they're faster than he, as they had to catch up to him. Granted it wasn't that far of a distance, but your claim was that they don't follow him. They obviously do.

We're talking about Byakuya having an opening to get behind Rose using the cicada technique. Even if they do follow Byakuya at the same speed, you think Rose wouldn't notice the huge cloud of cherry blossoms move behind him?


So yeah, they follow him if he guides them to where he wants to move (unless he gained a "teleport zanpakuto" kidou without us knowing it). And while Rose can still block with Kinshara, he can't use Izayoi Bara because the tip is where the explosion comes from, and the tip would be far away from him when Byakuya (along with his super-fast petals) catches his blindside.

The cicada is not a speed technique, it's a replacement one. It only works because Byakuya leaves his captain haori or something that takes his image. Like I said it would maybe allow Byakuya to escape one of Rose's attacks, but it's not like Byakuya can move himself and all of his petals behind Rose before Rose can react and dodge.


Again, Ichigo WAS injured. Remember when Kenpachi was getting cut up by Noitorra and said "Huh, if I keep getting attacked like this, I'm gonna die." It's the exact same instance as what happened to Ichigo. And with ONE ATTACK, lmao. Ichigo, after being bludgeoned by one strike from SKY, opted to up the ante, because he knew without a shadow of a doubt that he, at that point, would stand absolutely no chance against a bankai wielding captain. He could not take morehits of that level. His inability to oneshot a borderline equal opponent in no way at all makes him seem weak.

Says you. This is bleach, the characters in this manga take much worse hits and keep fighting. Even being stabbed through the torso is apparently not a grave injury. I say Ichigo would have gotten hit by a few more waves of the cherry blossoms before he keeled over. Granted, it's true he definitely couldn't win without his own bankai, but that's due to him being totally unable to avoid the petals.


As for Ichigo still injuring Yammi with less than half reiatsu, remember that Ichigo naturally has more than twice a captain's reiatsu. So at that wounded level he still had a reserve of reiatsu close to Byakuya (since he's a mid tier captain, thus...average reiatsu technically). Doesn't make Yammi's hierro look any weaker to me.

Well if we do want to get technical, saying he had half his reiatsu is REALLY stretching it. He only had one sleeve of his black bankai overcoat remaining (which is what indicates how much reiatsu he had) so really he was operating with a fraction of his overall reiatsu at that point. Besides, I'm more concerned with how easily Kenpachi was chopping off those thick legs of Yammi's. If it's true that Yammi had the 2nd strongest hierro in that particular form, then I guess it's also true that eye-patched Kenpachi should be able to easily cut Grimmjow, Ulquiorra, Starrk, Harribel, etc., in half the way he did to Telsa (Nnoitora's fraccion).


Dead from an attack that was already softened by a wall of SKY? Unlikely. Injured if it's close enough? Sure. But dead? You're talking about a captain who could still run at full speed with only one leg. He's tough no matter what you want to believe.

I doubt he was moving at full-speed after he severed all his tendons on his leg. Shunpoing on one leg shouldn't be too difficult for any captain though. Not really an impressive feat by Bleach standards IMO. Maybe izayoi bara wouldn't kill him, but it would incapacitate him long enough for Rose to finish him off.


Likewise, the only thing that was blown up with Izayoi were wolf-shaped Cero. Cero that were already explosive, mind you. You can't think those wolves have the same defense as Byakuya.

Rose certainly did not detonate the wolves when he used izayoi bara, if that's what you're implying. The wolves only seemed to explode once they bit onto something, and their explosions looked very different from what we saw here (http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-chapter-386-page-11.html).



As for Hybrid Captains > Captains, that's only half true. For one, there isn't a single visored outside of Ichigo that could avoid getting baby-shaked by Yama. A plain old captain.

Captain commander ≠ captain


Secondly, it depends on the base strength of the hybrid captain to begin with. Rose has shown no impressive strength. Impressive attacks sure, but again he blew up wolves that were already explosive... and he sang to some menos to kill them. Menos are fodder. Those wolves were fodder. Rose's only feats of strength are practically non-existant. What makes it all worse is he needed his mask to pull off these "amazing" feats.

From what we've seen though most captains are in the same ball park in strength. So natural power scaling suggest that when they become hybrids (which makes them at least twice as strong) they should surpass the non hybrids. For example, if Byakuya had a hollow mask, I'd say he'd easily become the strongest captain in the gotei 13 after Yamamoto. Same goes for pretty much any of them. Even Toushirou with a mask; imagine his bankai techniques with several times the strength behind them.

Oh and and why would Rose need the mask on to use his shikai techniques??

Takahashi
December 01, 2010, 03:06 PM
I haven't read that entire monstrous post Samurai, but I see a lot of you bashing Byakuya's power and ability to kill. Yet at the same time, you're consistently suggesting that the guy who's Shikai that has killed nothing but fodder is somehow capable of one shotting the most diverse captain in SS.

ninjabot
December 01, 2010, 04:14 PM
By the fact that the bankai version, which is 10x more powerful, can't even mortally wound shikai Ichigo with a direct hit? Rose would literally have to be standing still and allow himself to be chipped at all day long for Byakuya's shikai to actually do the job.


Senbonzakura's strength lies in it's speed and versatility. Had Byakuya wanted Ichigo one shotted he would have pierced every single vital organ on his body at once by attacking every possible angle, (Gokei), but instead opted to slam him into the ground for whatever reason. Which still was painful enough to cause Ichigo to get serious. If we and Ichigo recognize the danger Ichigo was in then, why can't you? An attack doesn't have to be a one-shot kill to be considered strong. And if it's powerful enough to put enough fear in you to make you get serious, that's testament to the attack's strength.



When I see him emerge from it smiling and continue to fight with no problem, yeah I call that shrugging it off. It's not like releasing his bankai healed him or anything. Ichigo suffered no injuries from a direct hit from senbonzakura kageyoshi that weren't superficial; and he proceeded to fight without any problem. Being covered in blood means next to nothing in bleach. And I don't see Rose ever once taking a direct hit like that to begin with as he's faster than shikai Ichigo (all captains besides Ken and Komamura are), and probably even faster than non hollow bankai Ichigo with the mask on.


Again, smiling doesn't mean a whole lot when you're bleeding profusely. If someone shoots me in the foot and I force a smile because I'm a cocky kid (which is the case with Ichigo), am I injured or no? Ichigo knew his potential speed before activating bankai, that's why he was so cocky; he knew he had the speed to avoid the attacks that he could not continue taking. Secondly, what has Rose shown us to make us believe he can avoid consecutive bombardments from SKY? Can he block from every angle? Remember that the speed of SKY increases 3-fold when guided with Byakuya's hands. Add that to the fact that it atleast moves at his movement speed without hand guidance and you have an attack that moves faster than Byakuya can move (whether significantly or not). Rose is eating a ton of petals in this fight.



Yeah, because he was obviously too slow to avoid it. He would just continue to get pummeled by full waves of senbonzakura kageyoshi had he remained in shikai.


And because only one blow from an attack that's incredibly fast was enough to bat him around like a fly. If he thought he could take the hits long enough to get in a winning blow, why reveal his bankai? It's because he knew his body couldn't take those hits. Bottom line is SKY isn't weak. It's not incredibly powerful, but when multiple hits are practically guaranteed, the lack of power is more than made up for. MORE than.



I did mention that senkei would be totally a totally different case. I don't know about goukei though, it's pretty much the same as the first form except he surrounds his target in a sphere. What happens if Rose just breaks out of one side? We've only seen it used on some fodder espada too so who knows how deadly it really is. I could see Rose pulling off something like this: (Start watching at 4:25) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dbxFbdRf7fM
That wasn't canon, but I do believe with their masks they'd emerge from goukei with minimal damage like Ichigo did here.


If Rose breaks out of one side, he does so by taking a crapload of petals into his person. Escaping isn't the problem, it's enduring the blow and still being able to counter/escape a cotinuing onslaught. He'll have to fight the pain of running head first into a wall of blades, then turn to find Byakuya (who was hidden from view behind the Gokei). At which point either Byakuya sends the petals back toward Rose to continue attacking, retracts some to act as a shield, sets up a Utsusemi to fool Rose, whatever.



We're talking about Byakuya having an opening to get behind Rose using the cicada technique. Even if they do follow Byakuya at the same speed, you think Rose wouldn't notice the huge cloud of cherry blossoms move behind him?


Noticing and reacting are two different things. And reacting and succesfully countering/blocking are different things aswell. He turns to block, the petas engulf him (you try swatting down a tidal wave with a whip, lol). He attemps to dodge, the petals follow. He attemps to block, he stays immoble long enough to be engulfed in a Gokei.



The cicada is not a speed technique, it's a replacement one. It only works because Byakuya leaves his captain haori or something that takes his image. Like I said it would maybe allow Byakuya to escape one of Rose's attacks, but it's not like Byakuya can move himself and all of his petals behind Rose before Rose can react and dodge.


I'm aware of how Cicada works. That's why it WILL work. Rose has no way of knowing the replacement is set up (Byakuya set up a cicada while being attacked by 5 enemies. One enemy won't do much to hinder his prep if anything). And why are you so confident Rose can dodge these petals if they move with Byakuya, move as fast/faster than Byakuya, AND are attacking from a blind point?



Says you. This is bleach, the characters in this manga take much worse hits and keep fighting. Even being stabbed through the torso is apparently not a grave injury. I say Ichigo would have gotten hit by a few more waves of the cherry blossoms before he keeled over. Granted, it's true he definitely couldn't win without his own bankai, but that's due to him being totally unable to avoid the petals.


We've seen characters cut down in one shot with less injury to them than what Ichigo had, so what's your point? Appearance isn't what matters, it's how the characters react. And Ichigo got scared into upping the ante just like Kenpachi did. And likewise, Rose, just like Ichigo, is totally unable to avoid the petals aswell. For any length of time atleast, outside of his mask. I've seen nothing to suggest otherwise. Unless you want to assume Stark's Cero wolves move at the same speed or greater than SKY. Emphasis on the word assume.



Well if we do want to get technical, saying he had half his reiatsu is REALLY stretching it. He only had one sleeve of his black bankai overcoat remaining (which is what indicates how much reiatsu he had) so really he was operating with a fraction of his overall reiatsu at that point. Besides, I'm more concerned with how easily Kenpachi was chopping off those thick legs of Yammi's. If it's true that Yammi had the 2nd strongest hierro in that particular form, then I guess it's also true that eye-patched Kenpachi should be able to easily cut Grimmjow, Ulquiorra, Starrk, Harribel, etc., in half the way he did to Telsa (Nnoitora's fraccion).


I don't write the manga, I don't have an answer for that. I just know that Byakuya has injured someone with greater endurance and durability than Rose using his bankai. Thus, Rose won't be lasting a great deal. I'm not saying he'll be one shotted. I don't think there's really anyone Byakuya can one shot of captain level opponents. I do know however that no one can endure his blows indefinately.



I doubt he was moving at full-speed after he severed all his tendons on his leg. Shunpoing on one leg shouldn't be too difficult for any captain though. Not really an impressive feat by Bleach standards IMO. Maybe izayoi bara wouldn't kill him, but it would incapacitate him long enough for Rose to finish him off.


He still moved at a speed fast enough that he could avoid Leroux's eyesight, which means there was no signifant drop in efficiency. Likewise, fighting at full potential with only two limbs isn't impressive by Bleach standards? What amazing battle did I miss where a character (without some hax regenerative ability) did better? The best example I can think of is Komamura, and even he was incapacitated before continuing to fight.



Rose certainly did not detonate the wolves when he used izayoi bara, if that's what you're implying. The wolves only seemed to explode once they bit onto something, and their explosions looked very different from what we saw here (http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-chapter-386-page-11.html).


You can't be sure of that. In the anime you see some of his yellow reiatsu mixed with the blue f the Cero, but they also added more wolves than were actually there.



From what we've seen though most captains are in the same ball park in strength. So natural power scaling suggest that when they become hybrids (which makes them at least twice as strong) they should surpass the non hybrids. For example, if Byakuya had a hollow mask, I'd say he'd easily become the strongest captain in the gotei 13 after Yamamoto. Same goes for pretty much any of them. Even Toushirou with a mask; imagine his bankai techniques with several times the strength behind them.

Oh and and why would Rose need the mask on to use his shikai techniques??


Well first off: no. Not all captains are created equal, or even roughly equal. There are tiers. Captain commander, senior captains, mid tier, then bottom tier. If they were all roughly th same strength we wouldn't have so many Hitsugaya handicap matches, lmao.

Also, Rose doesn't need the mask to use his attacks. He needs the mask to produce that level of destructive power he produced during that fight, because every time he did anything of note it was while relying on his mask. Meaning his Izayoi Bara is weaker than what we saw, with a smaller explosion. His movement speed is slower than what we saw when fighting those wolves without his mask. His attack speed is slower, his attack power lower. Even if he managed to hit Byakuya, anything done to him without the mask on isn't a game ender at all.

Takahashi
December 01, 2010, 04:31 PM
I'm still confused as to what you are arguing Samurai.

Rose has a whip that can make explosions, Byakuya can make a million petals surround every inch of an area and collapse it on Rose. He can try to whip them away, which isn't possible, or he could detonate his whip from the inside. And if it's powerful enough to kill Byakuya from an outside explosion like you've said, surely Rose would die from an inside explosion.

How exactly does Rose even have a defense for Byakuya's offense?

El Samurai Guapo
December 02, 2010, 03:52 AM
Senbonzakura's strength lies in it's speed and versatility. Had Byakuya wanted Ichigo one shotted he would have pierced every single vital organ on his body at once by attacking every possible angle, (Gokei), but instead opted to slam him into the ground for whatever reason.

That’s some massive speculation there. We’ve yet to see Byakuya do that kind of damage to anything with senbonzakura. Goukei didn’t even do that to Zommari, one of the fodder ranked espada. Only form that has a shot of hitting vital organs is senkei really. Goukei is literally the same thing as the first stage, except it places Byakuya's target inside a sphere which collapses on onto them. Byakuya didn’t just slam Ichigo into the ground, he hit him with enough senbonzakura that more than engulfed every inch of his body (hence a direct hit). In other words, Goukei probably wouldn’t do any worse.


Which still was painful enough to cause Ichigo to get serious. If we and Ichigo recognize the danger Ichigo was in then, why can't you? An attack doesn't have to be a one-shot kill to be considered strong. And if it's powerful enough to put enough fear in you to make you get serious, that's testament to the attack's strength

I recognize the danger of getting hit over and over by senbonzakura, but I don’t agree it would happen to Rose. I think Rose is faster than shikai Ichigo by a wide margin. Make that an enormous margin if we’re talking about Hollow Rose, whom I think is fast enough to speed blitz Byakuya.


Again, smiling doesn't mean a whole lot when you're bleeding profusely. If someone shoots me in the foot and I force a smile because I'm a cocky kid (which is the case with Ichigo), am I injured or no?

If after smiling you get up and proceed to dominate the dude that just shot you in a fight, then no, you’re not seriously injured. i.e. superficial wound


Secondly, what has Rose shown us to make us believe he can avoid consecutive bombardments from SKY? Can he block from every angle? Remember that the speed of SKY increases 3-fold when guided with Byakuya's hands. Add that to the fact that it atleast moves at his movement speed without hand guidance and you have an attack that moves faster than Byakuya can move (whether significantly or not). Rose is eating a ton of petals in this fight.

The petals don’t move as fast as Byakuya moves without guidance. If you going by what you linked me to in your last post, that doesn’t prove anything. Byakuya wasn’t traveling at full speed there, he was simply flying towards Yammi with the petals following; he didn’t even shunpo. What makes me think Rose could avoid consecutive bombardments? Probaly the fact that he was Captain level 100 years ago, and has only since gotten a lot stronger? I’m not even talking about hollow powers here, the vaizards spent the last century training to get revenge against Aizen, while everyone in SS was ignorant of what was going on (which means most of them probably weren’t training anywhere near as hard). I made a few posts somewhat related to this in a different threat just yesterday.


People need to stop claiming that captains x, y, and z are the strongest because they have the most experience too; cause let's face it, what do captains spend the overwhelming majority of their time doing? They're not fighting, that's for certain. I don't even see most of them training hard either. The only ones that do train are the ones that have a particular motivation to become stronger (e.g. the vaizards over the last 100 years, or the current Toushirou that wants to become strong enough to protect Momo). Really though it's mostly the VCs and Ichigo's crew that seem to be making the most upward progress.

The point I was trying to make is that being a captain longer doesn't equate to more battle experience. Kenpachi had probably been in more fights than many of the captains before he even became a shinigami. Likewise Urahara Kisuke, as head of the detention unit in the omnitsukido, probably go to see more action on a regular than captains. Captains are normally the last resort for defending Seireitei and are not on the front lines. Hence they spend the majority of the time doing nothing and attending pointless meetings. Or in Shunsui's case being a lazy drunk womanizer. Hell Ukitake Juushirou is sick the majority of the time and let's his subordinates run his division (see Kaien's conversation with Rukia), yet he's still a captain.

Now I realize that Byakuya is one of the younger captains, and my above posts were more of a shot at the older ones like Retsu, Juushirou, and Shunsui. Byakuya is still one of those who has the potential to make upward progress, though I really doubt he trained as hard the last 100 years as Urahara or the vaizards did, because he like the rest of Seireitei was unaware of Aizen’s true nature and the imminent danger.
With that said, now we can move onto to hollowfication. Yes, as we already know, Rose also has an inner hollow which he had to gain dominion over to unlock it’s hollow powers. We have every reason to believe that when you take two shinigami, who are in the same ballpark in terms of strength, and make one of them a hybrid, that the hybrid should be quite a bit more powerful. We’ve seen from Ichigo’s fights (and a bit from Mashiro too) just how big of a jump hollowfication is. It’s basically the SSj transformation of Bleach. As I’ve said many times before, I consider it a superior boost than a bankai because it improves ALL stats (strength, speed, defense, etc.) by a lot, as well as giving access to hollow techniques like cero.


And because only one blow from an attack that's incredibly fast was enough to bat him around like a fly. If he thought he could take the hits long enough to get in a winning blow, why reveal his bankai? It's because he knew his body couldn't take those hits. Bottom line is SKY isn't weak. It's not incredibly powerful, but when multiple hits are practically guaranteed, the lack of power is more than made up for. MORE than.

It’s true that senbonzakura kageyoshi makes up for its lack of power by being versatile (i.e. being capable of defense as well as offense), but the thing is, unlike against Shikai Ichigo, multiple direct hits are not guaranteed. Of course Rose is going to get hit by some of the petals; the damn things are all over the place, but it would take a sizable swarm like the one Ichigo got hit with to slow a Rose down, bits of it here and there aren’t going to do more than harass him.


If Rose breaks out of one side, he does so by taking a crapload of petals into his person. Escaping isn't the problem, it's enduring the blow and still being able to counter/escape a cotinuing onslaught. He'll have to fight the pain of running head first into a wall of blades, then turn to find Byakuya (who was hidden from view behind the Gokei). At which point either Byakuya sends the petals back toward Rose to continue attacking, retracts some to act as a shield, sets up a Utsusemi to fool Rose, whatever.

Byakuya wasn’t hidden from view actually. Zommari could still see him.
http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-chapter-301-page-22.html
The damage shouldn’t be too bad from escaping goukei. Since the sphere is pretty large, there really isn’t a large concentration of the petals, and the walls are pretty thin. Breaking through with mask should be possible with minimal damage.


Noticing and reacting are two different things. And reacting and succesfully countering/blocking are different things aswell. He turns to block, the petas engulf him (you try swatting down a tidal wave with a whip, lol). He attemps to dodge, the petals follow. He attemps to block, he stays immoble long enough to be engulfed in a Gokei.
Well when I was talking about blocking I was thinking of Byakuya behind him with a sword, not petals. Yeah blocking them with Kinshara isn’t really an option so he’d just dodge. The petals follow, but so what. Rose is a vaizard captain, I’m sure he can go the entire length of a fight continuously moving.


I'm aware of how Cicada works. That's why it WILL work. Rose has no way of knowing the replacement is set up (Byakuya set up a cicada while being attacked by 5 enemies. One enemy won't do much to hinder his prep if anything). And why are you so confident Rose can dodge these petals if they move with Byakuya, move as fast/faster than Byakuya, AND are attacking from a blind point?
Cause the petals don’t just disappear and reappear behind Rose along with Byakuya? The petals were never shown to be so fast that anyone of Rose’s caliber would lose track of them.


We've seen characters cut down in one shot with less injury to them than what Ichigo had, so what's your point? Appearance isn't what matters, it's how the characters react. And Ichigo got scared into upping the ante just like Kenpachi did. And likewise, Rose, just like Ichigo, is totally unable to avoid the petals aswell. For any length of time atleast, outside of his mask. I've seen nothing to suggest otherwise. Unless you want to assume Stark's Cero wolves move at the same speed or greater than SKY. Emphasis on the word assume.

You’re right, appearances don’t matter, which is why your bringing up Ichigo being covered in blood is a moot point. Especially in a shounen manga where the amounts of blood are always ridiculously exaggerated. The reaction is what matters, in Ichigo’s case it was being totally unfazed and proceeding to fight as if nothing happened. Yeah, it made Ichigo decide he should use his bankai, but we’ve been over this already, it was because he had no means of avoiding or counterattacking with his shikai. It didn’t “scare” him. Just like Byakuya didn’t get scared when he busted his bankai out against Ichigo; he simply did so cause he realized his obsolete shikai was completely useless against him.


I don't write the manga, I don't have an answer for that. I just know that Byakuya has injured someone with greater endurance and durability than Rose using his bankai. Thus, Rose won't be lasting a great deal. I'm not saying he'll be one shotted. I don't think there's really anyone Byakuya can one shot of captain level opponents. I do know however that no one can endure his blows indefinately.

Based on what the manga showed us (databook is secondary to the actual manga IMO) I seriously doubt Yammi’s first form of resurreccion is more durable than Rose. Rose got blown up with multiple wolves which each were much more potent than ceros (according to Starrk) and was ready to keep fighting. Well, at least Love was, but I don’t see why it would have been any different for Rose.


He still moved at a speed fast enough that he could avoid Leroux's eyesight, which means there was no signifant drop in efficiency. Likewise, fighting at full potential with only two limbs isn't impressive by Bleach standards? What amazing battle did I miss where a character (without some hax regenerative ability) did better? The best example I can think of is Komamura, and even he was incapacitated before continuing to fight.

Fighting at full potential? Not sure what that means, but he really didn’t do anything after he was down to one arm and one leg. Thankfully for Byakuya even if he reaches the point where he can’t move any of his limbs, he can still sit back and let his bankai do the work – which is essentially what he did against Zommari. Byakuya released his bankai and used goukei on his ass. Later all he had to do was give a finishing blow.


You can't be sure of that. In the anime you see some of his yellow reiatsu mixed with the blue f the Cero, but they also added more wolves than were actually there.

First of all they’re not ceros. Secondly, if you want to go by the anime, that explosion would have been many times larger had the dozens of wolves standing there all detonated at once. And like I said, the wolves when never shown to be capable of blowing up without first biting onto something.


Well first off: no. Not all captains are created equal, or even roughly equal. There are tiers. Captain commander, senior captains, mid tier, then bottom tier. If they were all roughly th same strength we wouldn't have so many Hitsugaya handicap matches, lmao.

Not if you ask me. I think all captains (with the exception of Yamamoto) are in the same tier, which is basically the upper tier of shinigami. It is true that some of the younger ones may be a bit weaker, but any fight between two captains would result in a hard fight for each party. And even if you did break down the captains into tiers, Byakuya would be mid-level at best. He’s not that much stronger than what most would consider a low tier captain. You apparently think Toushirou is from the low-tier, so using him as an example, Byakuya would definitely have a rough time against Toushirou. Give the kid a hollow mask and he’s indisputably stronger though. Byakuya would get fodderized by a hollowfied Ryusenka, Guncho Tsurara, HH, Sennen Hyoro, etc.


Also, Rose doesn't need the mask to use his attacks. He needs the mask to produce that level of destructive power he produced during that fight, because every time he did anything of note it was while relying on his mask. Meaning his Izayoi Bara is weaker than what we saw, with a smaller explosion. His movement speed is slower than what we saw when fighting those wolves without his mask. His attack speed is slower, his attack power lower. Even if he managed to hit Byakuya, anything done to him without the mask on isn't a game ender at all.

Obviously. I think it would be pretty ridiculous to suggest that a captain could defeat another captain’s bankai with his shikai only; even though Kinshara seems to be pretty powerful for a shikai. There are at least 10 more sonatas we’ve yet to see, and for all we know the level of strength could be in descending order (i.e. #1 is the most powerful). Remember, the way I see it, all captains are of more-or-less similar strength. The only exception to this rule is when hollowfication is also a factor, I believe. That’s why scenario 2 is Rose with shikai + mask vs. Bankai Byakuya. Also, I never said it would be easy for Rose either. In fact I think Rose only wins so long as Byakuya refrains from using what truly makes his bankai deadly: the thousands flying swords than can skewer you simultaneously. I don’t find his bankai’s 1st stage or goukei to be that impressive by bankai standards. Heck I think Byakuya wielding an actual blade and fighting himself (like he can do in senkei as well) is deadlier than the cherry blossoms.

Takahashi
December 02, 2010, 10:00 AM
You're putting so much emphasis on the mask, but were the Espada not exactly the same? They're both hybrids of the same makeup, just different results, yet I seem to recall them being fodderized by just the ordinary captain Shinigami. You're using the logic of "if they both have the same rank, then the one with the mask wins", but you're forgetting that ability is what dictates the victor in Bleach.

I don't see how a single weapon like a whip that can make things explode at the tip can in any way overcome a million shards of metal coming in at all directions. Ichigo did it because he was that damn fast, I don't see Rose batting away them all, but believe what you want.

ninjabot
December 02, 2010, 11:00 AM
That’s some massive speculation there. We’ve yet to see Byakuya do that kind of damage to anything with senbonzakura. Goukei didn’t even do that to Zommari, one of the fodder ranked espada. Only form that has a shot of hitting vital organs is senkei really. Goukei is literally the same thing as the first stage, except it places Byakuya's target inside a sphere which collapses on onto them. Byakuya didn’t just slam Ichigo into the ground, he hit him with enough senbonzakura that more than engulfed every inch of his body (hence a direct hit). In other words, Goukei probably wouldn’t do any worse.


His shikai, sure. But there has never been an instance in the manga, not a single instance where a character was hit with SKY and not injured. Not a one. Ever. And Gokei did cripple Zommari: it pierced all of his eyes and wounded him profusely. He even had to arm himself with a super thick dome of hierro just to survive it, and Ichigo had no hierro when he was struck, and likewise, he wasn't hit in every part of his body (he was slammed into the ground, hit from above. He couldn't possibly have been hit on every side).

Secondly, you've no proof that a captain who's capable of guiding his weapon anywhere he wants can't hit a vital organ. Infact it's silly to think he can't when he can guide all of about a million petals. From guiding the petals to focus on his throat and eyes, to lacerating his tendons to slow him down, all of these are possible. Focusing on Rose's heart is more difficult, but not the slightest bit impossible.



I recognize the danger of getting hit over and over by senbonzakura, but I don’t agree it would happen to Rose. I think Rose is faster than shikai Ichigo by a wide margin. Make that an enormous margin if we’re talking about Hollow Rose, whom I think is fast enough to speed blitz Byakuya.


Because of his unrevealed speed potential? You've nothing to base this claim of him being able to outrun SKY on outside of the fact that Rose may or may not have increased his speed. Even with his mask there was never an instance where Rose amazed anyone, not even his actual opponent, with his speed. Rose has done nothing but be old. That's not enough to guarantee power, nor speed.



If after smiling you get up and proceed to dominate the dude that just shot you in a fight, then no, you’re not seriously injured. i.e. superficial wound


You don't flee from potentially superficial wounds. You run from potentially deadly wounds. Secondly, the domination didn't come forth until Ichigo pulled out all the stops. He could not take more than one blow from SKY and expect to continue fighting. He simply couldn't. And SS Ichigo's skin<<Released Leroux's Hierro+hierro dome. No way in hell.



The petals don’t move as fast as Byakuya moves without guidance. If you going by what you linked me to in your last post, that doesn’t prove anything. Byakuya wasn’t traveling at full speed there, he was simply flying towards Yammi with the petals following; he didn’t even shunpo. What makes me think Rose could avoid consecutive bombardments? Probaly the fact that he was Captain level 100 years ago, and has only since gotten a lot stronger? I’m not even talking about hollow powers here, the vaizards spent the last century training to get revenge against Aizen, while everyone in SS was ignorant of what was going on (which means most of them probably weren’t training anywhere near as hard). I made a few posts somewhat related to this in a different threat just yesterday.


Ichigo was shunpoing and they caught up to him without the 3 times boost. They didn't overwhelm him until the 3 times boost however. How can they move as fast as bankai Ichigo and NOT move as fast as Byakuya? Also, you don't know how much Rose has increased at all as you don't have an accurate measure of his strength during TBTP. Different characters had different boosts from their masks aswell as different time limits, which explains Mashiro's longer limit and outrageous power compared to Hachi who... had is on like a second and gained no visible increase whatsoever.



Now I realize that Byakuya is one of the younger captains, and my above posts were more of a shot at the older ones like Retsu, Juushirou, and Shunsui. Byakuya is still one of those who has the potential to make upward progress, though I really doubt he trained as hard the last 100 years as Urahara or the vaizards did, because he like the rest of Seireitei was unaware of Aizen’s true nature and the imminent danger.
With that said, now we can move onto to hollowfication. Yes, as we already know, Rose also has an inner hollow which he had to gain dominion over to unlock it’s hollow powers. We have every reason to believe that when you take two shinigami, who are in the same ballpark in terms of strength, and make one of them a hybrid, that the hybrid should be quite a bit more powerful. We’ve seen from Ichigo’s fights (and a bit from Mashiro too) just how big of a jump hollowfication is. It’s basically the SSj transformation of Bleach. As I’ve said many times before, I consider it a superior boost than a bankai because it improves ALL stats (strength, speed, defense, etc.) by a lot, as well as giving access to hollow techniques like cero.


That's just the problem: you're deadset on placing Rose and Byakuya on the same tier prior to Hollowfication with nothing at all to back that claim outside of "Rose is really old." As for the "super saiyains of Bleach", remember that Mashiro and Ichigo gained a far more significant boost than everyone else (showing a bigger increase in power based on their fights), having the longest activation time aswell. Rose's was like, 1 to 3 minutes, and was backed by no feats whatsoever.

Think of it in RPG terms. Rose has a strength of 10, as he's a captain. Mashiro has a strength of 6. With mask, Rose gains +5, making him a 15. Mashiro however, gains a +10, making her a 16. Then after 3 minutes Rose is a 10 again, and Mashiro is still a 16.



It’s true that senbonzakura kageyoshi makes up for its lack of power by being versatile (i.e. being capable of defense as well as offense), but the thing is, unlike against Shikai Ichigo, multiple direct hits are not guaranteed. Of course Rose is going to get hit by some of the petals; the damn things are all over the place, but it would take a sizable swarm like the one Ichigo got hit with to slow a Rose down, bits of it here and there aren’t going to do more than harass him.


Again, this is based on an assumption that Rose is as fast as you say. And even then, while the attacks aren't guaranteed, they're far more likely to connect than Rose's. And those bits are as controlled as he rest of the zanpakuto. Those bits can be the exact bits that bury themselves in Rose's retinas or jugular. Byakuya doesn't have to hit Rose with building-busting power. He just needs to hit him often, which is likely considering each strike comes with a built in smokescreen of petals which sets him up for more hits.



Byakuya wasn’t hidden from view actually. Zommari could still see him.
http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-chapter-301-page-22.html
The damage shouldn’t be too bad from escaping goukei. Since the sphere is pretty large, there really isn’t a large concentration of the petals, and the walls are pretty thin. Breaking through with mask should be possible with minimal damage.


Not completely hidden, but well enough that tracing his movements had he opted to move would have been difficult, (and Rose only has 2 eyes). I agree the mask would limit the potential damage, but he won't stay in his mask indefinately. He can't. 3 minutes of strongarming through the petals leaves him with no time to capatalize on escaping a Gokei or just a regular petal bombardment. What happens when he pushes his way through the petals JUST as his mask falls apart?



Well when I was talking about blocking I was thinking of Byakuya behind him with a sword, not petals. Yeah blocking them with Kinshara isn’t really an option so he’d just dodge. The petals follow, but so what. Rose is a vaizard captain, I’m sure he can go the entire length of a fight continuously moving.


So what? At what time does he counter attack? We're not limited to Kubo's flawed battle logic, the petals aren't gonna stop just so that Rose and Byakuya can talk trash. He's gonna stay on the defensive, leaving him only short 3 minute intervals where he can actually tank SKY without placing him in a worse scenario. Continuosly moving, spamming hollowfication... against an enemy that need only look at him to put him on the defensive. Who's gonna outlast whom?



Cause the petals don’t just disappear and reappear behind Rose along with Byakuya? The petals were never shown to be so fast that anyone of Rose’s caliber would lose track of them.


Byakuya's petals so far have only been stopped once. And that was by an enemy with not just the ability to keep track of the petals, but attack speed (from a speed type zanpakuto mind you) to cut down each and every petal, from every angle, as they closed in. The only other character to even entertain the idea of stopping every blade was Leroux, and he needed 50 eyes to do it (and he ran short of eyes, as 1 mil>xinfinty 50. The only other character who could potentially (not really, lol) perform a similar feat to Ichigo is Gin, as his sword could possibly retract and fire fast enough... no, not even that.



You’re right, appearances don’t matter, which is why your bringing up Ichigo being covered in blood is a moot point. Especially in a shounen manga where the amounts of blood are always ridiculously exaggerated. The reaction is what matters, in Ichigo’s case it was being totally unfazed and proceeding to fight as if nothing happened. Yeah, it made Ichigo decide he should use his bankai, but we’ve been over this already, it was because he had no means of avoiding or counterattacking with his shikai. It didn’t “scare” him. Just like Byakuya didn’t get scared when he busted his bankai out against Ichigo; he simply did so cause he realized his obsolete shikai was completely useless against him.


But we had more than appearances to base Ichigo's inability to survive more blows from SKY on. It was his admittance that he couldn't survive, Byakuya's surprise that he could still stand, Ichigo's decision to run like hell rather than endure the blows, the blood seeping from his person, the fact that Ichigo stayed immobile, breathing heavily for a moment an staggard to stand up (a rest if you will) and the fact that Byakuya, who could have left the petals on him grinding him like a school of pirahna, opted to let him up. For all intents and purposes, had plot not intervened that would have been the end of the fight.



Based on what the manga showed us (databook is secondary to the actual manga IMO) I seriously doubt Yammi’s first form of resurreccion is more durable than Rose. Rose got blown up with multiple wolves which each were much more potent than ceros (according to Starrk) and was ready to keep fighting. Well, at least Love was, but I don’t see why it would have been any different for Rose.


That's like me claiming that Ukitake can endure a point blank cero from Stark just because Shunsui could. I agree they're roughly equals, but not in the muscle department. Love was obviously the brawler between he and Rose. He was also rendered maskless after the first volley, and put on his knees with the second. As was Rose. So much for the durability of their masks, lol. As for the hierro it's not like our personal feelings can change canon, so tough cookies.



Fighting at full potential? Not sure what that means, but he really didn’t do anything after he was down to one arm and one leg. Thankfully for Byakuya even if he reaches the point where he can’t move any of his limbs, he can still sit back and let his bankai do the work – which is essentially what he did against Zommari. Byakuya released his bankai and used goukei on his ass. Later all he had to do was give a finishing blow.


He cut down released Leroux with a sealed zanpakuto (the petals were gone), before he could move, with only one foot and hand. Sure he abominated him with Gokei first, but it was still Leroux's strongest form against a handicapped Byakuya.



First of all they’re not ceros. Secondly, if you want to go by the anime, that explosion would have been many times larger had the dozens of wolves standing there all detonated at once. And like I said, the wolves when never shown to be capable of blowing up without first biting onto something.


Semantics. They're cero's that happen to be peices of his soul. Shaped like wolves. I guess a Bala isn't a cero either? As for needing a bite... http://www.mangafox.com/manga/bleach/v43/c373/13.html

When was Rose or Love bit here?



Not if you ask me. I think all captains (with the exception of Yamamoto) are in the same tier, which is basically the upper tier of shinigami. It is true that some of the younger ones may be a bit weaker, but any fight between two captains would result in a hard fight for each party. And even if you did break down the captains into tiers, Byakuya would be mid-level at best. He’s not that much stronger than what most would consider a low tier captain. You apparently think Toushirou is from the low-tier, so using him as an example, Byakuya would definitely have a rough time against Toushirou. Give the kid a hollow mask and he’s indisputably stronger though. Byakuya would get fodderized by a hollowfied Ryusenka, Guncho Tsurara, HH, Sennen Hyoro, etc.


No, no, no, a thousand times no. To all of that. You don't rank them by power alone, that's not what the tiers are. And yes, Byakuya is mid level. The best of the mid level actually. A level held by he, Kenpachi, and Soi Fon (some would place Komamura in this tier, but a the bottom. Even fewer place Hitsugaya in this tier, also at the bottom). Also, the hollowfication statement is subjective aswell. Is it a double increase? 10%? Does it last for 1 minute? 1 hour? There's way more to consider than "This guy has a mask, so he's stronger, obviously."



Obviously. I think it would be pretty ridiculous to suggest that a captain could defeat another captain’s bankai with his shikai only; even though Kinshara seems to be pretty powerful for a shikai. There are at least 10 more sonatas we’ve yet to see, and for all we know the level of strength could be in descending order (i.e. #1 is the most powerful). Remember, the way I see it, all captains are of more-or-less similar strength. The only exception to this rule is when hollowfication is also a factor, I believe. That’s why scenario 2 is Rose with shikai + mask vs. Bankai Byakuya. Also, I never said it would be easy for Rose either. In fact I think Rose only wins so long as Byakuya refrains from using what truly makes his bankai deadly: the thousands flying swords than can skewer you simultaneously. I don’t find his bankai’s 1st stage or goukei to be that impressive by bankai standards. Heck I think Byakuya wielding an actual blade and fighting himself (like he can do in senkei as well) is deadlier than the cherry blossoms.


I feel like I'm obligated to explain just how deadly Byakuya is with SKY alone, because there are far, far too many people on the internets that think it's not deadly, which limits him to Senkei and Shuukei. I could bring those attacks into consideration, sure, but I value versatility and speed over plain old stopping power. But I'm gonna stop with the debate after this:

You say that Byakuya + bankai is a good match for shikai Rose + hollow mask. But, how many good matches have we seen in Bleach where one character loses what makes him a good match 3 minutes into the fight? Byakuya doesn't "run out" of bankai. Rose can reactivated his mask, but only after an undetermined amount of time. The very thing you claim puts him above Byakuya is barely gonna be used, and because there's nothing that reveals him to be of any real threat outside of short 3 minute inervals he's just not deadly enough to beat a guy who's specialty is the fact that he's elite at friggin' everything. Hell, you even had to remove his kidou inorder to make it more of a fair fight. Anytime you have to start throwing out handicaps to limit charactes you know who the victor is.

Raizen
December 02, 2010, 05:05 PM
Byukuya takes both scenarios relatively easily. Byakuya has shown to be one of the more powerful captains while rose has shown that he is nothing but a lame imitation of yoko kurama.

I am reading that people are bashing byakuya's shikai and bankai because ichigo survived. Are we forgetting that a shinigami's life/endurance is based on their SP and ichigo has probably the highest SP in all of the manga once he can tap into it. Ichigo only managed to counter byakuya's shikai b/c byakuya was underestimating him the whole time. Does rose have anything that will stop byakuya's shikai like that? Hell no!. Although the shikai may not take out rose with one hit, it will leave him open for any follow up technique byakuya has.

In terms of speed, byakuya got this guy beat in more ways that none. Byakuya can contend with the espada with teh fastest sonido. He also has tricks learned from the flash goddess herself. Rose on the other hand has shown no speed feat. Even with mask I doubt he is as fast as byakuya.

His whip is long and dangling. It is too bulky to use effectively, especially against someone as fast and agile as byakuya. The moment he tries to attack with the whip and miss, he is completely open for attack.

Byakuya got rose beat in every field. Not a challenge

Primecut
December 02, 2010, 08:04 PM
How come Rose can't just take this fight with power scaling? He was a captain when Byakuya was in diapers so he has the experience. He has a mask so he has power and speed advantages covered as Byakuya was humiliated by a novice mask Ichigo. Now Byakuya does have the bankai shown but Rose's whip should be able to slide between those petals and land direct hits. Byakuya isnt a tank, we've seen him kneel to one piercing attack from Gin. Rose's whip should accomplish a similar feat.

Raizen
December 02, 2010, 10:05 PM
I have no time to respond to primecut since I don't intend to feed the troll :notrust.

But i would like to counter the idea that just because rose or any of the vizards were captains or VC when byakuya was a kid, does not mean they are in any way stronger than him. As we know, each shinigami has a potential. We saw that in the span of less that 50 years, byakuya mastered his bankai and attained captainship from when we last saw him in the TBTP. That means his potential is quite large in fact. Someone can train for a hundred years and still not be as strong as someone who has been sleeping for that time period (ie soifon and youruichi). So anyone using that as an argument for the vizards need to come up with a new plan of attack

Jackk
December 03, 2010, 12:20 AM
I want to begin by noting the few things we actually saw of Rose in the TBTP arc. First, we saw Lisa and Rose getting ready to take out, without killing, a hollow Kensei. Also notice that they were getting ready to attempt this with only their sealed swords. Granted other things happened that prevented them from executing their plan. Particularly Mashiro and themselves turning into hollows too. Still the fact that they believed that together they only needed their sealed swords to immobilize hollow Kensei... does at least show that they had confidence in their own abilities and skill to accomplish such a task.
http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-chapter-324-page-10.html
http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-chapter-324-page-11.html

Then, we see Rose is sneak-attacked from behind, and he received one of hollow Mashiro's kicks right in his head. A powerful kick like that in the head from behind is never a good thing since the neck and the head are the most vulnerable points of a shinigami, and of any person for that matter. Yet Rose took that hit, and even though he was knocked to the ground by that (we've seen how physically strong hollow Mashiro can be)...we actually soon after that see Rose still conscious and ready to get back to holding hollow Kensei. In fact, Rose actually used a kido spell to attack Kensei and stop him in mid air from trying to hurt Lisa.
http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-chapter-324-page-12.html
http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-chapter-324-page-13.html
http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-chapter-325-page-9.html
http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-chapter-325-page-10.html

Furthermore, we also know that, many years later... when Ichigo was trying to suppress the hollow inside him, Rose had to stay inside a small barrier (http://www.mangafox.com/manga/bleach/v25/c221/20.html) and fight alone against a Bankai hollow Ichigo. We didn't actually see Rose go inside the barrier and fight, but if you want proof/evidence that he actually did fight (Rose did it off-panel though), look inside the following spoiler:
First, remember that Shinji had said that they were going to take turns among them (http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-chapter-220.html). And Rose was included in this. Further, we know that the first person to go in was Lisa (http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-chapter-218-page-13.html) (also note that the vaizards were holding back, and none of them were trying to kill Ichigo). The next person to go in was Kensei (http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-chapter-219-page-14.html), after that we didn't actually see all the other vaizards fight inside the barrier, but we later see that they had all already gone in and had their turns... because when we see Love fighting against a full hollow Ichigo, Lisa is saying that it will soon be her turn again (http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-chapter-222-page-3.html). (she was the first one to go in initially) Furthermore, we know that Rose had to have gone to fight inside that small barrier...sometime after Kensei, but also sometime before Love went in to fight (http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-chapter-222-page-1.html)... since Love was the last one to fight against that bankai hollow Ichigo. To give a better Idea of what Rose had to fight, do remember that when Kensei was fighting against bankai hollow Ichigo, that beast already even had high-speed regeneration (http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-chapter-220-page-2.html), had some crazy hollow mouths (http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-chapter-220-page-4.html) that he used for attacking, and was more of a hollow at that point (http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-chapter-220-page-5.html) and kept transforming more and more very quickly... as noted by Kensei (http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-chapter-220-page-6.html). As a result of that, Rose must have had to fight something even stronger than the hollow Bankai Ichigo that Kensei had to fight. (since the hollow kept transforming more and more as time went by)

In addition to the above, we also see Mashiro getting surprised by the fact that Love was getting ready to put on his Mask to fight a full hollow Bankai Ichigo (http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-chapter-222-page-5.html). This suggests that Rose and the others had all previously fought without their Masks against that hollow Ichigo, otherwise Mashiro would not have been surprised and would not have been asking why Love is going to put his Mask on. Then we even have Rose telling Mashiro that if Love didn't put on his Mask at this point (now that Ichigo was even stronger than before, as a fully transformed hollow Bankai Ichigo), then Love would stand no chance against the hollow. Further, the fact that we even see Love fighting that thing with only his sealed sword (http://www.mangafox.com/manga/bleach/v25/c222/2.html) likely means that Rose had fought with his sealed sword too...since I think that Love and Rose seem to be more or less equals in power. Besides, the hollow that Love was fighting was a bit stronger than the one Rose had to fight. And that's due to Ichigo turning more and more into a hollow as time went by, and due to the fact that he turned fully into a hollow on Love's turn too....which forced Love to resort to his Mask. (although Love didn't actually get to fight with his Mask since Ichigo managed to suppress his inner hollow just in time)

Naturally I think that that shows how strong Rose can be. Rose was even holding back and not trying to kill Ichigo, even though this Ichigo was very far into his hollow transformation, had high-speed regeneration, had some very powerful hollow attacks, and was dead set on trying to kill the vaizards in that small barrier. None of them even used their Masks. In addition, I have to say that I'm not sure if I could see Byakuya actually putting up a good fight against that Bankai hollow Ichigo inside that small barrier, at least definitely not with Byakuya using only his sealed sword. Byakuya would likely need his Bankai....

With that being said, I will state that I believe that Rose is in a higher tier above Byakuya, this is just my opinion, of course, but in addition to what I have already stated... I will add that Rose was already a captain 112+ years ago, while Byakuya was still just a kid. Granted Byakuya could have trained hard to be where he is now as a captain (I think that Byakuya is currently a mid tier captain). Nevertheless, I believe that Rose was at least a mid tier captain back then in the TBTP arc, but now after more than 100 years of training... I'm fairly certain that Rose has gotten even stronger too, and I don't think that the only boost Rose got was from his Mask. It wouldn't make sense to focus on simply getting stronger through the Mask for all those 100+ years. Besides, while training with the Mask...he was surely also practicing other shinigami arts and techniques and improving his Zanpakutou skills. Therefore, he must have improved overall as a fighter and not just simply gotten a "Mask boost" after 100 years.

I do also believe that their Masks give them a pretty significant boost to power/strength, speed, and defense though. In addition, it's worth keeping in mind that the vaizards must have had all the motivation for training hard so that they could get their revenge on Aizen too. Therefore, they were definitely training all this time. Heck they even have their own "training ground arena (http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-chapter-218-page-3.html)" (which looks similar to Kisuke's own training grounds (http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-chapter-59-page-11.html)). Further, we also know that soul society was completely oblivious or unaware of Aizen's true nature and his plans, so the captains in soul society definitely did not have the motivation that the Vaizards had for training and revenge etc.

There is also the fact that we haven't even seen Rose's Bankai yet. I also believe that those characters who haven't shown us their Bankai yet, have to be among the strongest ones (shunsui, Urahara, Shinji, Love, Rose... and all the others who haven't revealed their Bankai). Further, Rose can also use Bankai + Mask and that has to be very powerful, to say the least. Yet Rose hasn't had the need to resort to using his Bankai so far. On the other hand...we have seen Byakuya use his Bankai quite a lot because his Shikai just plainly isn't good enough against stronger opponents. Granted Byakuya's Bankai does make up somewhat with significant versatility and utility, but Byakuya still relies on his Bankai too much, in my opinion. Unlike other fighters who haven't had the need to reveal their Bankai just yet.

As shunsui had told Stark, Bankai is their secret move (http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-chapter-374-page-11.html). The stronger and more experienced fighters seem to not want use their Bankai yet because there's no need to reveal their secret move if they don't absolutely have to. On the other hand, it seems that other fighters such as Komamura, Hitsugaya, and Byakuaya still depend more on their Bankai for power... so they actually need to use it more frequently. If that was not the case... then they would not be using their Bankai in pretty much every fight they're in.

Having said all that, here's how I think the particular scenarios of this fight will go:

Scenario 1: Rose wins this one.

Byakuya's shikai is too weak from what we've seen, thus Byakuya tends to rely on his Bankai too much when fighting stronger opponents. And Rose's shikai seems to have quite a few techniques with his sonatas and can deal different explosions that could blow away Byakuya's shikai petals easily, in my opinion. Granted we mostly saw Rose using his techniques while wearing his Mask in FKT, but I believe that even without the Mask... they will still be better than Byakuya's shikai. As I've already stated previously, I believe that Rose is overall more experienced and more powerful than Byakuya. Therefore, Shikai Vs Shikai... I have to give it to Rose for sure.

Scenario 2: I think that this one could probably go either way depending on the circumstances.

Byakuaya may be able to win this one due to his Bankai's versatility. Also particularly if Byakuya uses his strongest moves as aggressively and consecutively as possible, and if the attacks manage to actually catch Rose several times (I think that Rose can survive some petal assaults, specially since he has his Mask in this scenario). Nevertheless, even if Byakuya is able to win this one, it still would NOT be easy for Byakuya to take down a shikai + Mask Rose though, in my opinion. And I do believe that rose still has a chance to win this fight because I think that that Mask gives him a very significant boost to his power/strength, speed, and defense. And I also believe that Rose must have a powerful cero too...since we've already seen Shinji, Mashiro and even Hiyori using Ceros. I don't see why Rose wouldn't be able to have his own Cero as well. Further, Rose seems to be able to move his Kinshara shikai whip at a significantly fast speed and with very precise movements.
http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-chapter-386-page-8.html
http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-chapter-386-page-9.html

Further, Rose's Kinshara "Izayoi Bara" technique seemed extremely powerful. I think that it's capable of blowing away Byakuya's petals, and if he can catch Byakuya inside the explosion with that attack...then Byakuya will surely receive some very serious damage. http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-chapter-386-page-11.html

I think that the vaizards are really underestimated around here. I know that most people here think that the vaizards are a complete disgrace and a disappointment. Although at least a few of you have noted that the truth is that we simply haven't seen them fight as much as the other captains. This obviously makes this fight a bit unfair if we go purely by what these characters have shown. Particularly because Byakuaya has shown to us pretty much all his moves by now... and we have seen him in more fights than Rose as of now. Nevertheless, from the little we have seen and know about Rose, I'm inclined to believe that Rose is more experienced and more powerful than Byakuya. Only time will give us a more accurate comparison though, since Rose still has a lot more to show. Particularly his Bankai, and the combination of Bankai + Mask, as well as what other abilities his shikai and Bankai may give him. And since we have seen Rose using kido blasts against hollow Kensei back in the TBTP arc, I think that Rose may also be pretty adept with Kido.



Semantics. They're cero's that happen to be peices of his soul. Shaped like wolves. I guess a Bala isn't a cero either?

A lot of the things that you guys have said in your posts have been opinions. Granted so have a lot of the things that I stated in this post.... so I'm not going to argue against opinions; it would be pointless.

However, regarding Stark's wolves- They are NOT ceros. And no, this part is not "semantics" ...it cannot be called ceros when Stark himself explicitly stated that they were not ceros. Just thought I should clarify that.

Also, I don't know why you're even comparing Stark's soul wolves to Yammy's Bala. They are totally different things....

This is what Stark said regarding his wolves: "...Those aren't ceros. If they were, there's no way they'd actually injure strong guys like you. I split up my own soul into physical forms, to accompany me and serve as my weapons. Those wolves are Starrk and Lilynette."

http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-chapter-386-page-16.html

Further, Love and Rose did get hit hard by a significant amount of those wolves (http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-chapter-386-page-17.html), yet they were still standing with only some bruises (http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-chapter-387-page-3.html). They were far from finished, so that shows again that they are quite durable. Granted Love and Rose probably would have had to go Bankai at that point, had Shunsui not interrupted their fight. (though Shunsui had no way of even avoiding all of Stark's ceros earlier and he was about to go Bankai too...until Ukitake intervened. Not to mention that Shunsui never even faced Stark's wolves.) And this leads me to believe that a shikai + Mask Rose should also be able to withstand several of Byakuya's petal assaults too.


As for needing a bite... http://www.mangafox.com/manga/bleach/v43/c373/13.html

When was Rose or Love bit here?


They do explode exactly when they bite you. And I don't understand your question there. Look again at the link you posted, two wolves are clearly biting Love. It's in the second panel at the top of that manga page.

Not to mention that in this particular page that you linked is where the wolves bite Love, and then the wolves explode on both Love and Rose while neither of them were wearing their Masks, which shows that they can even take quite a beating without their Masks on. And remember that the next couple of pages then showed them with just some bruises. I think that's rather impressive... specially since they were being attacked by the released Espada #1's ultimate technique too. That has to amount to something...

El Samurai Guapo
December 03, 2010, 01:36 AM
His shikai, sure. But there has never been an instance in the manga, not a single instance where a character was hit with SKY and not injured. Not a one. Ever. And Gokei did cripple Zommari: it pierced all of his eyes and wounded him profusely. He even had to arm himself with a super thick dome of hierro just to survive it, and Ichigo had no hierro when he was struck, and likewise, he wasn't hit in every part of his body (he was slammed into the ground, hit from above. He couldn't possibly have been hit on every side).

There’s also never been an instance where Byakuya has critically injured anyone with his base bankai form. Well I suppose Renji is arguable, but Byakuya had to bind him with a bakudo first, and also used some flying swords on him. A super thick hierro dome? You realize that you’re making shit up here. Nowhere in the manga does it describe Zommari’s ball he put himself into as a thick hierro dome of any sort. Of course his eyes were pierced, but how is that a noteworthy feat? Any paper cut will easily cut someone’s eyeball. Ichigo’s entire body was hit. Look at how the wave of senbonzakura completely engulfs every inch of him.
http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-chapter-161-page-16.html
http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-chapter-161-page-17.html



Secondly, you've no proof that a captain who's capable of guiding his weapon anywhere he wants can't hit a vital organ. Infact it's silly to think he can't when he can guide all of about a million petals. From guiding the petals to focus on his throat and eyes, to lacerating his tendons to slow him down, all of these are possible. Focusing on Rose's heart is more difficult, but not the slightest bit impossible.

Cause if that was the case we would have seen it happen? We didn't; not against Renji, not against Ichigo, and not against Zommari. The petals are apparently capable of only causing microscopic cuts; they’re still deadly (in bankai; shikai is useless) because there is a lot of them though. So yeah, they can cut you up all over your body, but they lack any sort of penetrating power unless they’re in the shape of katanas. I don’t think Byakuya can pinpoint on such small targets like eyes or throats either, he certainly has not demonstrated that kind of precision; he simply sends waves of the stuff.



Because of his unrevealed speed potential? You've nothing to base this claim of him being able to outrun SKY on outside of the fact that Rose may or may not have increased his speed. Even with his mask there was never an instance where Rose amazed anyone, not even his actual opponent, with his speed. Rose has done nothing but be old. That's not enough to guarantee power, nor speed.

He was more or less the level of the current Byakuya prior to a century of continuous training. Even back then he should have been able to dodge senbonzakura quite easily, as any captain bar Kenpachi or Komamura could. Most captains have exceptional speed and are masters of shunpo. Add in a hollow mask and yeah…



You don't flee from potentially superficial wounds. You run from potentially deadly wounds. Secondly, the domination didn't come forth until Ichigo pulled out all the stops. He could not take more than one blow from SKY and expect to continue fighting. He simply couldn't. And SS Ichigo's skin<<Released Leroux's Hierro+hierro dome. No way in hell.

I must have missed the part where Ichigo fled from Byakuya. All I saw was Ichigo release his bankai. I guess according to your logic Byakuya fled from Ichigo when he used his bankai? Zommari was the espada with the quickest sonido, I doubt his hierro was anything special, and again, that was no hierro dome. Byakuya easily sliced through him with his sealed sword. I’m not impressed to say the least. Grimmjow, Ulquiorra, and Nnoitora would be a different story, as they actually demonstrated thick hierro. Bankai Hollow Ichigo had a hard time just cutting Grimmjow with his sword.


Ichigo was shunpoing and they caught up to him without the 3 times boost. They didn't overwhelm him until the 3 times boost however. How can they move as fast as bankai Ichigo and NOT move as fast as Byakuya?

Well I think Byakuya is faster than base bankai Ichigo to begin with; hollowfied Ichigo would be a different story. The guy trained under Yoruichi after all.


Also, you don't know how much Rose has increased at all as you don't have an accurate measure of his strength during TBTP. Different characters had different boosts from their masks aswell as different time limits, which explains Mashiro's longer limit and outrageous power compared to Hachi who... had is on like a second and gained no visible increase whatsoever.

Different characters had different time limits, not different strength boosts. Nowhere in the manga does it suggest that the power up from wearing the mask was any different for any of the vaizards. Mashiro’s mask didn’t even last as long as she claimed. She obviously doesn’t know the difference between fighting with the mask and simply wearing it. Hachi lost his mask quickly because it got hit with respira, go and check for yourself.


That's just the problem: you're deadset on placing Rose and Byakuya on the same tier prior to Hollowfication with nothing at all to back that claim outside of "Rose is really old." As for the "super saiyains of Bleach", remember that Mashiro and Ichigo gained a far more significant boost than everyone else (showing a bigger increase in power based on their fights), having the longest activation time aswell. Rose's was like, 1 to 3 minutes, and was backed by no feats whatsoever.

I’m deadest on them being in the same tier cause they’re both captains. Granted it’s possible that the current Byakuya may be a bit stronger than the Rose of a century ago (or vice versa), and also granted that not all captains are 100% equal, but they all are in the same ballpark, as I’ve said countless times now.


Think of it in RPG terms. Rose has a strength of 10, as he's a captain. Mashiro has a strength of 6. With mask, Rose gains +5, making him a 15. Mashiro however, gains a +10, making her a 16. Then after 3 minutes Rose is a 10 again, and Mashiro is still a 16.

Except numbers are totally arbitrary. I’ll just humor you and play your game though. It’s more like Rose has a base Strength of 100 and gains another 100 (VERY conservative estimate) from the mask, while Mashiro is like a 50 so she gains at least another 50 from the mask.


Again, this is based on an assumption that Rose is as fast as you say. And even then, while the attacks aren't guaranteed, they're far more likely to connect than Rose's. And those bits are as controlled as he rest of the zanpakuto. Those bits can be the exact bits that bury themselves in Rose's retinas or jugular. Byakuya doesn't have to hit Rose with building-busting power. He just needs to hit him often, which is likely considering each strike comes with a built in smokescreen of petals which sets him up for more hits.

Again, you’re giving Byakuya abilities he hasn’t demonstrated. Granted that Ichigo probably should have had his eyes cut when he got swallowed by “SKY” as you call it, but this is a manga. I doubt Kubo even thought of that, or ever will. Of course Rose at least has some protection for his face.


Not completely hidden, but well enough that tracing his movements had he opted to move would have been difficult, (and Rose only has 2 eyes). I agree the mask would limit the potential damage, but he won't stay in his mask indefinately. He can't. 3 minutes of strongarming through the petals leaves him with no time to capatalize on escaping a Gokei or just a regular petal bombardment. What happens when he pushes his way through the petals JUST as his mask falls apart?

Well I don’t see where you get the idea that the fight would last for hours. 3 minutes of continuous fighting is a long time, and Rose doesn’t have to keep it on at all times. The vaizards know how to utilize the masks efficiently and will reapply them before they hit their time limit. It wouldn’t be until Byakuya busts out his bankai and starts to come after him that Rose would even have to even consider pulling it out in the first place, heck I doubt Byakuya’s useless shikai could even force Rose to release Kinshara.


So what? At what time does he counter attack? We're not limited to Kubo's flawed battle logic, the petals aren't gonna stop just so that Rose and Byakuya can talk trash. He's gonna stay on the defensive, leaving him only short 3 minute intervals where he can actually tank SKY without placing him in a worse scenario. Continuosly moving, spamming hollowfication... against an enemy that need only look at him to put him on the defensive. Who's gonna outlast whom?

Rose can counterattack at any moment, just like Ichigo was able to get behind Byakuya and cut him, Rose should be able to do the same. In fact Rose should have an easier time because his weapon is longer, more versatile, and difficult to predict. Whips can attack from many angles are are hard to follow. If Rose simply backs away and sends Kinshara in, Byakuya will obviously attempt to block it with a wave of senbonzakura, which is a perfect setup for Rose to use Izayoi Bara.


Byakuya's petals so far have only been stopped once. And that was by an enemy with not just the ability to keep track of the petals, but attack speed (from a speed type zanpakuto mind you) to cut down each and every petal, from every angle, as they closed in. The only other character to even entertain the idea of stopping every blade was Leroux, and he needed 50 eyes to do it (and he ran short of eyes, as 1 mil>xinfinty 50. The only other character who could potentially (not really, lol) perform a similar feat to Ichigo is Gin, as his sword could possibly retract and fire fast enough... no, not even that.

Rose can as even better way to disperse the petals though. Again Sonata #11 seems like one of the best abilities in bleach to deal with Byakuya’s bankai.


But we had more than appearances to base Ichigo's inability to survive more blows from SKY on. It was his admittance that he couldn't survive, Byakuya's surprise that he could still stand, Ichigo's decision to run like hell rather than endure the blows, the blood seeping from his person, the fact that Ichigo stayed immobile, breathing heavily for a moment an staggard to stand up (a rest if you will) and the fact that Byakuya, who could have left the petals on him grinding him like a school of pirahna, opted to let him up. For all intents and purposes, had plot not intervened that would have been the end of the fight.

He never said he couldn’t survive, he said that he should have known it’s not possible to fight a bankai with a shikai (which is true in most cases). Now, I actually agree he probably wouldn’t have survived, but this is after god knows how many more blasts of senbonzakura. By the time we saw Ichigo the blood was not seeping; what was on him was just the result of the cuts he received. You’re grossly exaggerating the whole thing here, Ichigo was down for all of 2 seconds then he smiled, said what he said to Byakuya, and went bankai. If Byakuya had kept it up Ichigo would have just used his bankai without saying anything, and this would have happened.
(http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-chapter-162-page-11.html)


That's like me claiming that Ukitake can endure a point blank cero from Stark just because Shunsui could. I agree they're roughly equals, but not in the muscle department. Love was obviously the brawler between he and Rose. He was also rendered maskless after the first volley, and put on his knees with the second. As was Rose. So much for the durability of their masks, lol. As for the hierro it's not like our personal feelings can change canon, so tough cookies.

They were rendered mask-less because of how powerful those wolves were. The wolves would have easily raped all the other captains as well, including Byakuya. The mask is what allowed them to come out with minimal damage from the first wolf onslaught though. The second attack obviously hurt them a lot more because they were without the masks.


He cut down released Leroux with a sealed zanpakuto (the petals were gone), before he could move, with only one foot and hand. Sure he abominated him with Gokei first, but it was still Leroux's strongest form against a handicapped Byakuya.

And was Zommari even a threat at that point? All he did was cut a still target; that hardly says Byakuya was doing swell himself.


Semantics. They're cero's that happen to be peices of his soul. Shaped like wolves. I guess a Bala isn't a cero either? As for needing a bite... http://www.mangafox.com/manga/bleach/v43/c373/13.html
When was Rose or Love bit here?

It’s not semantics Starrk specifically tells both of them they’re not ceros on the very next page after the one you just linked to. You tend to miss a lot of details, don’t you? Stark: "They’re not ceros. If they were ordinary ceros they wouldn’t be able to critically injure someone as strong as you.”

Second of all, I can’t believe you’re asking where Love was bit. Top middle panel of the same damn page you linked shows two wolves inches behind Love with their jaws open. What the hell do you think that implies happened?


No, no, no, a thousand times no. To all of that. You don't rank them by power alone, that's not what the tiers are. And yes, Byakuya is mid level. The best of the mid level actually. A level held by he, Kenpachi, and Soi Fon (some would place Komamura in this tier, but a the bottom. Even fewer place Hitsugaya in this tier, also at the bottom). Also, the hollowfication statement is subjective aswell. Is it a double increase? 10%? Does it last for 1 minute? 1 hour? There's way more to consider than "This guy has a mask, so he's stronger, obviously."

Umm, I don't rank by power alone. When I rank characters I look at all skills obviously.

The hollowfication is at least of double increase. It’s not subjective based on what we’ve seen. A 10% difference wouldn’t even be noticeable. Length of time, let’s say three minutes, like Rose. Though frankly I couldn’t see Byakuya lasting 30 seconds against a Hollowfied bankai Toushirou.


I feel like I'm obligated to explain just how deadly Byakuya is with SKY alone, because there are far, far too many people on the internets that think it's not deadly, which limits him to Senkei and Shuukei. I could bring those attacks into consideration, sure, but I value versatility and speed over plain old stopping power. But I'm gonna stop with the debate after this:

I somehow doubt that.


You say that Byakuya + bankai is a good match for shikai Rose + hollow mask. But, how many good matches have we seen in Bleach where one character loses what makes him a good match 3 minutes into the fight? Byakuya doesn't "run out" of bankai. Rose can reactivated his mask, but only after an undetermined amount of time. The very thing you claim puts him above Byakuya is barely gonna be used, and because there's nothing that reveals him to be of any real threat outside of short 3 minute inervals he's just not deadly enough to beat a guy who's specialty is the fact that he's elite at friggin' everything.

Well it’s like I said somewhere above, three minutes is a very long time for continuous combat. Byakuya may not be dead after the three minutes, but he’ll certainly be injured. More so than Rose I believe.


Hell, you even had to remove his kidou inorder to make it more of a fair fight. Anytime you have to start throwing out handicaps to limit charactes you know who the victor is.

Interesting. Rose can’t even use his bankai here, and he’s also barred from using kidou, and most of Rose’s shikai is still under wraps too, while we’ve seen pretty much everything from Byakuya…yet Byakuya is the one being handicapped here huh?

I actually do know the victor, if this were a no holds barred match there’s no question that Rose is stronger and would win. He was fighting the primera with his shikai while Byakuya busted his bankai out on an espada that wasn’t even in the top 4 (i.e. the fodder espada). It’s also fairly obvious that Kubo is saving the stronger characters’ bankai for last. Bankai Rose vs. Byakuya would be a rape. Bankai + mask would be overkill.

For scenario 2 though, I agree with Jackk that it could go either way. Mostly because of senkei. Anyone that gives Byakuya scenario one though, honestly...

Takahashi
December 03, 2010, 09:50 AM
To Jackk

If you're going to give so much credit for Rose fighting Ichigo, despite us having no idea how far the transformation had progressed, should you not note that both Hiyori and Mashiro also fought? (as indicated by the fact that Lisa's turn was coming around again after Love's).

Using the same logic, Mashiro and Hiyori both fought more powerful versions than Kensei, just like Rose. Yet these are the same two that got completely one shotted during the FKT fight. (I think Mashiro was a one shot, may have to check). The proof you're giving to Rose's power can be applied to those two as well. You also gave evidence to support the idea that NO one had used their mask up till Love's fight, so that means that Hiyori and Mashiro didn't either, and considering they seem pretty pathetic without them, clearly Hollow Ichigo wasn't all he's cracked up to be.

Like Ninjabot has said, we clearly know who the better Shinigami is if Samurai actually felt the need to cripple Byakuya's Kido, which is a core element in the way he fights, unlike Rose. We have almost nothing to gauge Rose because of his lack of time fighting. So not only is one of Byakuya's greatest assets being discarded, but people are actually looking for ways Rose could win by scrapping up every scene he's been in and trying to rationalize it into something, when really there's nothing there.

I'm not saying Rose is weak, but anyone who thinks he can win against Byakuya clearly WANTS him to win, and is using that more than actual proof.

exacta
December 03, 2010, 01:35 PM
One thing I think should be considered is that there is ONE weakness to Byakuya's zanpakuto, that Yoruichi exploits. When Byakuya was going to release against Ichigo during their 2nd encounter, Yoruichi stops the release by wrapping cloth around his sword. If Rose could do that with his shikai, then he may be able to prevent him from releasing. Then, he could use Izayoi Bara and deal significant damage.

The other thing that makes me wonder is the fact that Rose was captain back when Byakuya was a child prodigy.

El Samurai Guapo
December 03, 2010, 02:32 PM
One thing I think should be considered is that there is ONE weakness to Byakuya's zanpakuto, that Yoruichi exploits. When Byakuya was going to release against Ichigo during their 2nd encounter, Yoruichi stops the release by wrapping cloth around his sword. If Rose could do that with his shikai, then he may be able to prevent him from releasing. Then, he could use Izayoi Bara and deal significant damage.

The other thing that makes me wonder is the fact that Rose was captain back when Byakuya was a child prodigy.

Yeah in fact I'm pretty sure Renji did the same thing with his shikai. If someone of Renji's level can pull it off...

Raizen
December 03, 2010, 02:37 PM
Yea, the same renji and youruichi who has know byakuya for years and knows how to time it right. Furthermore, youruichi's soft silk and renji's straight released sword works in a different way than rose's whip. Assuming he can even attempt such a thing implies he has to stand at the correct distance, use against a stationary byakuya, and be capable of wrapping around it. i don't see that happening since the whip is too big.

Another thing is, when youruichi did it, she covered the entire blade so the blade couldn't separate, a whip can't do that because there will still be openings. Against renji, byakuya didn't release b/c then he has no defense against the sword that was right in front of him. Also in both those cases, byakya was standing still and underestimating his opponent

ninjabot
December 03, 2010, 02:37 PM
Renji, just like Yoruichi, knew the ability of Senbonzakura. On top of that, Renji was only about 5 feet away from him. Yoruichi had the speed to stop the attack from releasing, and Renji had launched his sword at Byakuya, thus, he had to stop the release so he could block the blade.

Rose launches Kinshara at Byakuya, he'll do the same thing: stop the release and block.

El Samurai Guapo
December 03, 2010, 02:57 PM
If you're going to give so much credit for Rose fighting Ichigo, despite us having no idea how far the transformation had progressed, should you not note that both Hiyori and Mashiro also fought? (as indicated by the fact that Lisa's turn was coming around again after Love's).

Using the same logic, Mashiro and Hiyori both fought more powerful versions than Kensei, just like Rose. Yet these are the same two that got completely one shotted during the FKT fight. (I think Mashiro was a one shot, may have to check).

Well I can't answer for Jackk, but I the way I see it Hiyori, Lisa, and Mashiro are also strong in their own right. I doubt any of them are even remotely VC level; they're captain level if you ask me, and I believe that they may even have bankais. Hiyori could have easily fodderized the same shikai Ichigo that utterly trashed Byakuya's shikai form.
http://www.mangafox.com/manga/bleach/v25/c216/5.html
He was bleeding badly (http://www.mangafox.com/manga/bleach/v25/c216/8.html)and breathing heavily before she even drew her zanpakutou.
(http://www.mangafox.com/manga/bleach/v25/c216/10.html)
Then look at the kind of force she hits with using her sealed zanpakutou only, almost cutting through Ichigo's shikai.
http://www.mangafox.com/manga/bleach/v25/c216/11.html

Imagine the power behind a captain like Rose's shikai when he has the mask on. Forget Izayoi Bara, if he gives Byakuya a masked Kinshara strike, it's not going to be pretty. According to you the mask boost is even greater in Hueco Mundo too.

And before anyone brings up Aizen catching Rose's whip, Aizen has stopped multiple people's zanpakutous with his hand, and Rose was already weakened after getting hit with the released primera espada's ultimate move multiple times.

Only reason Hiyori got one shotted in FKT is cause she was cut in half from behind by Gin. That could have happened to anyone. Mashiro was one-shotted by WW, but she was also fighting without a zanpakutou, and caught completely off guard by the mask shattering. Also, WW one-shotted Ukitake Juushirou (who himself has done nothing yet throughout the entire manga), yet people still consider him to be one of the strongest characters.


Like Ninjabot has said, we clearly know who the better Shinigami is if Samurai actually felt the need to cripple Byakuya's Kido, which is a core element in the way he fights, unlike Rose.

That's not true, I wanted to compare them fighting with their zanpakutous only is all. Sounds to me like you're actually suggesting that Byakuya isn't much without his kidou, therefore he's at an unfair advantage. Rose is also blocked from using kidou, and I'd honestly be very surprised if Rose was not an adept kidou user as he seems like one, and has very ability oriented zanpakutou. It's like I told Ninjabot though, Rose is at a greater disadvantage here with lack of bankai, and lack of most of his shikai abilities. Though because of the mask, and because of the fact that he's a top-tier shinigami, he would be a decent threat even with mask + sealed zanpakutou.

Takahashi
December 03, 2010, 06:41 PM
Well I can't answer for Jackk, but I the way I see it Hiyori, Lisa, and Mashiro are also strong in their own right. I doubt any of them are even remotely VC level; they're captain level if you ask me, and I believe that they may even have bankais. Hiyori could have easily fodderized the same shikai Ichigo that utterly trashed Byakuya's shikai form.
http://www.mangafox.com/manga/bleach/v25/c216/5.html
He was bleeding badly (http://www.mangafox.com/manga/bleach/v25/c216/8.html)and breathing heavily before she even drew her zanpakutou.
(http://www.mangafox.com/manga/bleach/v25/c216/10.html)
Then look at the kind of force she hits with using her sealed zanpakutou only, almost cutting through Ichigo's shikai.
http://www.mangafox.com/manga/bleach/v25/c216/11.html



Mashiro has never shown anything impressive when she's not using her mask, in fact, the SECOND it shattered she got her ass handed to her. As far as Hiyori goes, beating up Shikai Ichigo is something that a Privaron did even better than she did, it's no impressive feat to kick the ass of someone who needs Bankai to keep up with damn near everyone. You can use aesthetics all you want, but they have not showed anything close to Captain level yet, if they had, Halibel would have been completely screwed.

That being said, their masks clearly boost them a lot, but Jackk's point backfired on him when he noted that no one had used a mask in the fight against Hollow Ichigo. We don't need to turn this into a VC Vaizard argument, just understand that using Hollow Ichigo in defense of Rose's power doesn't amount to much.


Imagine the power behind a captain like Rose's shikai when he has the mask on. Forget Izayoi Bara, if he gives Byakuya a masked Kinshara strike, it's not going to be pretty. According to you the mask boost is even greater in Hueco Mundo too.

Sure is, like I said before, I believe that's a fact that hollow powers get significant boosts in HM. I do however think you're giving too much credit to the whip itself, that's clearly not the purpose of his Shikai in the first place, so don't act like it's a physical powerhouse release. Like most Shikai, it's ability is the redeeming factor (Izayou Bara makes explosions, Zangetsu shoots GT's, Hyorinmaru fires dragons from the blade etc.) There's not many (if any) that actually have a release where the purpose is increased power, just more techniques that enhance the effectiveness in a fight.


And before anyone brings up Aizen catching Rose's whip, Aizen has stopped multiple people's zanpakutous with his hand, and Rose was already weakened after getting hit with the released primera espada's ultimate move multiple times.

I can't imagine many people would use Aizen as a bash against Rose. However, Rose's weapon IS a whip, it's not impossible to catch it bare handed because there's nothing to stop someone from doing that, unlike a sharp blade.


Only reason Hiyori got one shotted in FKT is cause she was cut in half from behind by Gin. That could have happened to anyone. Mashiro was one-shotted by WW, but she was also fighting without a zanpakutou, and caught completely off guard by the mask shattering. Also, WW one-shotted Ukitake Juushirou (who himself has done nothing yet throughout the entire manga), yet people still consider him to be one of the strongest characters.

Like I said above, I didn't come here to argue VC Vaizards, I already made my point. They were used in relation to Rose.

I still have to say something about the Mashiro comment though, being surprised has nothing to do with how much damage you can take before being incapacitated. Did she leave herself open by being surprised? Sure, but it has no relevance to whether she can take a WW punch or not.

As far as Ukitake goes, it's been stated by the CC himself that no one could match either him nor Shunsui in battle at the academy. However, "the academy" was a long time ago, Ukitake is very clearly suffering from an illness, and it's been brought up several times. Whether that had any effect on the WW ass kicking or not, I can't say. (not that I'm a Ukitake defender anyway, I voted for Koma in their vs thread :amuse)




That's not true, I wanted to compare them fighting with their zanpakutous only is all. Sounds to me like you're actually suggesting that Byakuya isn't much without his kidou, therefore he's at an unfair advantage.

That's not what I'm saying, but part of Byakuya's strength comes with his diversity and ability to handle many situations, Kido in many ways can be better than a Zan ability.

Also, if you're comparing them by their zanpakuto's only? The mask is clearly a big advantage for Rose in multiple ways that don't affect his Zan at all. Sounds to me like you're actually suggesting that Rose isn't much without his mask.


Rose is also blocked from using kidou, and I'd honestly be very surprised if Rose was not an adept kidou user as he seems like one, and has very ability oriented zanpakutou. It's like I told Ninjabot though, Rose is at a greater disadvantage here with lack of bankai, and lack of most of his shikai abilities. Though because of the mask, and because of the fact that he's a top-tier shinigami, he would be a decent threat even with mask + sealed zanpakutou.

Well considering Rose has never shown the same proficiency with Kido that Byakuya has, we can't make assumptions like that without them being 100% opinion.

I find it strange that you put Rose as a "top-tier" shinigami, I've never seen any proof of that at all.

Primecut
December 03, 2010, 06:55 PM
Too obvious Prime.

You used that one already in the Gin vs Byakuya thread, if you're gonna troll every single fight topic, at least make some more believable material for each one, you had people going in the last one. Although the whole, he's older so he's better thing is funny at least :amuse

I have another point that everyone seems to be missing too. Remember how Rose tanked multiple ceroes from Stark? Rose was also still standing and ready to go bankai. I don't recall Byakuya's durability being very good. He was almost dead from one Getsuga from Hollow Ichigo and Gin's shikai had him kneeling from one hit. Rose would definitely have the durability advantage in this also. I just don't see Byakuya tanking those cero wolves and still fighting. Heck, they werent even ceroes, Stark remarked that ceroes wouldnt hurt opponents at the level of Rose and Love. Yet a cero was able to KO Shunsui temporarily...so perhaps Rose and Love have better durability than even a top captain. The feats would seem to indicate this.

Random101
December 03, 2010, 08:01 PM
... Byakuya tanked like three Getsuuga from Hollow Ichigo, kept fighting, used his ultimate move, then was the only one to leave that fight in a position in which he could still move, and came back to block a blow from Gin when exhausted and lacking his Zanpakuto, all without getting healed once after that brutal battle. His endurance, while still not up to snuff with the real tanks of the series is just fine. Those examples are plain dumb.

Jackk
December 03, 2010, 08:05 PM
To Jackk

If you're going to give so much credit for Rose fighting Ichigo, despite us having no idea how far the transformation had progressed, should you not note that both Hiyori and Mashiro also fought? (as indicated by the fact that Lisa's turn was coming around again after Love's).

The Rose Vs hollow Ichigo fight wasn't the only argument that I used to support my reasoning for Rose being significantly strong though.

And you're right, Hiyori and Mashiro both had their turns too. They all had 10 minutes each inside that barrier to hold off/fight that hollow Ichigo.


Using the same logic, Mashiro and Hiyori both fought more powerful versions than Kensei, just like Rose. Yet these are the same two that got completely one shotted during the FKT fight. (I think Mashiro was a one shot, may have to check).

I beg to differ here. At least it's not exactly how you put it anyway. Hiyori was provoked by Aizen (http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-chapter-390-page-11.html) and even though Shinji had told her to calm down and keep her cool (http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-chapter-390-page-8.html), Hiyori didn't listen and in her rage she charged (http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-chapter-390-page-12.html) blindly (with no Mask too), at Aizen. Then we see that it's Gin who from a distance and completely out of nowhere stabbed Hyori with his Shinsou (http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-chapter-390-page-14.html). That's a completely different circumstance from when they were trying to hold off hollow Ichigo inside the barrier in the vaizard's training grounds. This is because when they went inside the barrier to hold hollow Ichigo, they actually knew exactly what they were getting into, and were prepared for it.

There would be no acting completely reckless out of provocation from Aizen (who the vaizards really hated for what he had done to them) inside that barrier in their training grounds. Again, very different circumstances.

As for Mashiro, different circumstances as well. She used her Mask the whole time due to her overconfidence since she noticed that she was beating unreleased Wonderweiss quite easily, and she wasn't even using her zanpakutou. She didn't listen to Kensei's warning about getting exhausted and running out of time with her Mask (http://www.mangafox.com/manga/bleach/v43/c376/9.html). As a result, her Mask did run out of time and break (http://www.mangafox.com/manga/bleach/v43/c376/15.html), and she was then exhausted after pushing her Mask to the limit (as indicated by Kensei). We see that her Mask broke completely unexpectedly on her as she was in mid air and on her way down to attack her enemy. Wonderweiss took advantage of Mashiro's exhaustion, her surprise after seeing her Mask break, and her momentum as she was in mid air on her way down to strike her enemy who was below her, as we see wonderweiss then brutally punching Mashiro in the face (http://www.mangafox.com/manga/bleach/v43/c376/16.html) in the middle of all that.

Due to the circumstances in those events, I really can't count those cases as one shots...and then say that they are weak because of that. I suppose they were being stupid in those cases and that's why they got hurt, Hyori for not listening to Shinji... and Mashiro for not listening to Kensei. The fights inside Hachi's barrier against hollow Ichigo was a completely different circumstance and scenario. They knew exactly what they were getting into and were more careful, and were prepared to do whatever was needed for 10 minutes each to hold off that hollow Ichigo.
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Although, Wonderweiss was still actually pretty brutal and likely one of the strongest arrancars that Aizen had, if not that strongest. Wonderweiss did stab Ukitake in the back and took him down completely with that one hit. Ukitake didn't sense or see anything coming his way until it was too late for him to do anything. (http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-chapter-377-page-8.html) The same guy a lot of you believe is very strong and call him a "senior captain." Granted he is an old and experienced captain and all that, but at the same time... you guys are saying that being old doesn't mean anything, so yeah. And besides, what El Samurai Guapo and I have really stated is that not only was Rose a captain when Byakuya was just kid, but also that the vaizards had their own training grounds (http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-chapter-218-page-3.html), and they all had the motivation to train hard for all this 100+ years to get even stronger in order to get their revenge on Aizen. We all know how completely broken Aizen's LOLillusions are though...

On the other hand, soul society had no such motivation for training as hard since the captains there were completely oblivious or unaware of Aizen's true nature and his plans. Granted Byakuya still trained to be where he is now as a captain, obviously;however, I believe that the vaizards must have trained even harder to get even stronger than they already were. Not to mention again, that Byakuya tends to rely on his Bankai too much to take down his opponents, while other more experienced fighters such as shunsui, shinji, love, rose etc have not had such need to reveal their bankai just yet, which is their secret move...as stated by Shunsui. (http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-chapter-374-page-11.html) Although granted Shunsui almost did release his bankai (http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-chapter-376-page-6.html)...had Ukitake not intervened when released Stark was attacking Shunsui with all his ceros (http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-chapter-375-page-18.html). And Love and Rose were likely getting ready to do Bankai as well... after receiving several assaults from released Stark's ultimate soul wolves technique. Then again though, Byakuya actually did use his Bankai on Espada #7, who's nowhere near close to Espada #1...


The proof you're giving to Rose's power can be applied to those two as well. You also gave evidence to support the idea that NO one had used their mask up till Love's fight, so that means that Hiyori and Mashiro didn't either, and considering they seem pretty pathetic without them

I wouldn't consider them pretty pathetic without the Masks though, but I suppose we have different opinions about the vaizards. I think that even Hiyori and Mashiro have gotten significantly stronger after all their training for 100+ years.

We don't know how exactly Hiyori's and Mashiro's fight went inside the barrier, but they could have used their Shikai, which may have some abilities... as most shikais do (I also believe that they may have Bankai by now too, but that's another discussion. We might find out eventually if they really do...). Furthermore, Hiyori and Mashiro really only had to hold that hollow Ichigo for 10 minutes each, they didn't necessarily have to give an spectacular match. Nevertheless, I'm sure other fighters such as Rose and Love did put up a better actual fight since I think that they're still overall stronger and more experienced than Hiyori and Mashiro. I still think that Hiyori and Mashiro are pretty strong in their own right though.


clearly Hollow Ichigo wasn't all he's cracked up to be.

Or maybe the vaizards are just that good and skilled. (Hiyori and Mashiro included when they're actually focused, and not being dumb)


Like Ninjabot has said, we clearly know who the better Shinigami is if Samurai actually felt the need to cripple Byakuya's Kido, which is a core element in the way he fights, unlike Rose. We have almost nothing to gauge Rose because of his lack of time fighting. So not only is one of Byakuya's greatest assets being discarded, but people are actually looking for ways Rose could win by scrapping up every scene he's been in and trying to rationalize it into something, when really there's nothing there.

Taking away kido for both fighters is not unfair, in my opinion.

Like El Samurai Guapo said, he wanted to compare them fighting with their zanpakutous. It does sound as if you guys are saying that Byakuya isn't much without his Kido. Rose is the one that has been given the most disadvantages or handicaps in this fight.... with lack of bankai, and lack of most of his shikai abilities. I also think that Rose may be adept at Kido as we have already seen him using it before, and he seems like the type to use kido spells... given that he's all about style and art. His zanpakutuou is also not a mere physical type since he has different sonatas and explosive techniques. And really, even if we don't know what his Bankai is yet, we clearly already know that it's certainly going to seriously boost him even further...along with whatever other abilities he may get. Make that Bankai + Mask...and Byakuaya will have no way to keep up with Rose's full power.

Nevertheless, I think that there's reason to believe that Rose is in a higher level than Byakuya (more experience for Rose, he kept training during all those 100+ years too, he has a Mask to boost him even further, and he even held his own against released Espada #1... along with Love while only using their shikai and shikai + Mask in other instances. On the other hand, we have Byakuya using his Bankai against Espada #7 and against most of his other opponents too). Therefore, I think that shikai Rose should be able to beat shikai Byakuya, and shikai + Mask Rose could still be, at least, a close match Vs Bankai Byakuya. (I think mainly due to shikai + Mask Rose being significantly powerful, but then Bankai Byakuya does have his very powerful moves like Senkei...so that could be trouble.)


I'm not saying Rose is weak, but anyone who thinks he can win against Byakuya clearly WANTS him to win, and is using that more than actual proof.

Well, I believe that anyone who thinks that shikai Byakuya can win against shikai Rose clearly WANTS Byakuya to win. But hey... that's my opinion, and you have yours...

Primecut
December 03, 2010, 08:08 PM
... Byakuya tanked like three Getsuuga from Hollow Ichigo, kept fighting, used his ultimate move, then was the only one to leave that fight in a position in which he could still move, and came back to block a blow from Gin when exhausted and lacking his Zanpakuto, all without getting healed once after that brutal battle. His endurance, while still not up to snuff with the real tanks of the series is just fine. Those examples are plain dumb.

Has Byakuya shown cero immunity? Because Stark said there is no way ceros can hurt characters as strong as Love and Rose. I'd say they are around Zaraki level with that kind of statement backing them.

http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-chapter-386-page-16.html

Random101
December 03, 2010, 08:20 PM
Who hasn't shown the ability to tank ceros? Cero's in general suck. Even CO fails to kill outright with a direct hit, albeit at range. Variable damage at it's best to say the freaking least. Only Starrks really pose any danger, an even that's only because he layers that crap constantly. A single cero doesn't do much.

El Samurai Guapo
December 04, 2010, 12:04 AM
The same guy a lot of you believe is very strong and call him a "senior captain." Granted he is an old and experienced captain and all that, but at the same time... you guys are saying that being old doesn't mean anything, so yeah. And besides, what El Samurai Guapo and I have really stated is that not only was Rose a captain when Byakuya was just kid, but also that the vaizards had their own training grounds (http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-chapter-218-page-3.html), and they all had the motivation to train hard for all this 100+ years to get even stronger in order to get their revenge on Aizen.

So you noticed this too? This is a post I made on another thread a few months back.


I also find it amusing how some people will say that the vizards captains are weaker than the current gotei 13 captains (even the likes if Byakuya, Ken, Soi Fon, etc.) despite the fact that most of those characters are a lot younger than the vizard captains. Here age doesn't seem to make a difference, does it? However, as soon the discussion is about Kyouraku, Ukitake, or Unohana, age suddenly becomes relevant?? Sounds like a contradiction to me. I don't know, it seems like people have some form of dislike for the vizards because they're no longer attached to Soul Society, or they're seen as failed experiment by Aizen. I bet you that if Love and Rose were still wearing their captain's haori, they'd be a lot less underrated than they currently are on this forum.

Random101
December 04, 2010, 12:26 AM
That argument would be relevant... were we talking about the same scale of time. Keep in mind that for the 'seniors' they've been apparently captain level for about 2000 years. 100 years mimimum (Especially Rose who was new in TBTP) is nothing compared to that, particularly since some of the current captains were of that level around 60 years ago. Having forty years experience on a dude, particularly when the average amount of combat time for a captain can't be that high bar situations like this with war and all, isn't much, especially compared to 1900.

Even taking into account mask, I'd be more impressed had they made more of a contribution, but by what was shown Kyoraku did what two Vizard captains were unable to alone, without bankai and without any sort of hollowification. Granted thanks to a cheap shot but... >>

El Samurai Guapo
December 04, 2010, 01:33 AM
I don't think it took anywhere close to 1000 years for those older captains to hit their shinigami limits though, and I think 100 years of continuous training does make a large difference. Shunsui said that in 100 years Toushirou could surpass him.

It doesn't look like captains spend a whole lot of their time fighting or even training. When does anyone ever see Shunsui training? Sure you could say it simply happens off-panel, but his instances with Nanao suggest that he does nothing but lay around and get drunk. It's likely these thousand year-olds hit their peaks a long time ago and only periodically do a bit of training to prevent themselves from getting rusty, if that.

Random101
December 04, 2010, 02:02 AM
Problem is even the Vizards didn't remotely look like they were doing much either. That they let bloody Mashiro's mask stupidity alone slide without further training is only the most blatant example obviously, one that should have been culled virtually the instant they started their mask limit trainings frankly, that we literally see them laying about doing nothing during the training with Ichigo doesn't help matters.

I agree entirely the seniors don't train or see action often, same with the juniors, and indeed them being at their peaks might have something to do with it that the junior's don't deal with. But the problem is the comparison was off from the start. 1900 years on someone is going to be >>>>>>>>> 40 or so no matter how you slice it. That's why the seniors are given credit where the vizards are not, or at least part of it.

The other part being their current showings are pathetic, but that might have been just bad writing in general.

Jackk
December 04, 2010, 03:03 AM
So you noticed this too? This is a post I made on another thread a few months back.

I also find it amusing how some people will say that the vizards captains are weaker than the current gotei 13 captains (even the likes if Byakuya, Ken, Soi Fon, etc.) despite the fact that most of those characters are a lot younger than the vizard captains. Here age doesn't seem to make a difference, does it? However, as soon the discussion is about Kyouraku, Ukitake, or Unohana, age suddenly becomes relevant?? Sounds like a contradiction to me. I don't know, it seems like people have some form of dislike for the vizards because they're no longer attached to Soul Society, or they're seen as failed experiment by Aizen. I bet you that if Love and Rose were still wearing their captain's haori, they'd be a lot less underrated than they currently are on this forum.



Yeah, I noticed. ;)

When comparing, say... Love and Rose to captains such as Komamura or Byakuaya.... age and experience doesn't count because the vaizards are a disgrace apparently. Flawless logic. And the fact that the vaizards have their own training grounds (http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-chapter-218-page-3.html) and have been training hard there for 100+ years to get even stronger than they already were in order to get their revenge on Aizen... doesn't count either.

On a more serious note: We later even find out that the vaizards didn't really end up as "failed experiments" as Aizen himself tells Isshin that thanks to Urahara's deep desire to "fix" Shinji and his group, they actually became "complete vaizards."

http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-chapter-414-page-7.html

Aizen was obviously mocking them and trying to provoke them when he first insulted their hollowfication.


That argument would be relevant... were we talking about the same scale of time. Keep in mind that for the 'seniors' they've been apparently captain level for about 2000 years. 100 years mimimum (Especially Rose who was new in TBTP) is nothing compared to that, particularly since some of the current captains were of that level around 60 years ago. Having forty years experience on a dude, particularly when the average amount of combat time for a captain can't be that high bar situations like this with war and all, isn't much, especially compared to 1900.

Actually, according to Bleach manga; Volume 9, Renji Abarai's character profile... the shinigami academy was founded by Yamamoto 2100 years ago;however, Yamamoto only became the captain commander 1000 years ago (http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-chapter-407-page-7.html). Furthermore, even though apparently Shunsui and Ukitake were the firsts to become captain from the Academy that Yama founded (http://www.mangafox.com/manga/bleach/v18/c155/11.html)....we actually find out later in the TBTP arc that Shunsui, Ukitake, and Unohana are the only remnants of the original guard from a century ago (I'm not counting Yama), which means that as of now... they have been captains for about 200 years. Bleach wiki also states all this a little more explicitly, but going through the manga pages I found the same info stating that.

http://www.mangafox.com/manga/bleach/v36/c315.1/13.html
http://www.mangafox.com/manga/bleach/v36/c315.1/14.html


Even taking into account mask, I'd be more impressed had they made more of a contribution

Well I still think that Love and Rose being able to hold their own more or less with only their shikai and shikai + Mask in other instances...against the released Espada #1, and even receiving several assaults from his ultimate soul wolves technique (they received soul wolves explosions while wearing their Masks (http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-chapter-386-page-13.html), but the last assault/explosions they received them without them wearing their Mask (http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-chapter-386-page-15.html)...so they can even take quite a beating without their Masks on), is rather impressive or at least says something about their durability or endurance. Granted I do think that Love and Rose were getting ready to use their Bankai after the last soul wolves assault from Stark.

On the other hand, we do see Byakuya using Bankai quite often in most of his fights because his Shikai just plainly isn't good enough against stronger opponents. He even used his Bankai on Espada #7, who's no where near Espada #1...

Also granted the vaizards have not been shown in as many fights as other captains in the manga yet.. so yeah. They still have a lot more to show us (more abilities, their Bankais, Bankai + Mask etc). I do hope that we see more from them soon...so that we can give even better and more accurate comparisons.


but by what was shown Kyoraku did what two Vizard captains were unable to alone, without bankai and without any sort of hollowification. Granted thanks to a cheap shot but... >>

Well... do remember that Shunsui also had assistance from Ukitake against Stark. In fact, Shunsui was getting ready to release his Bankai (http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-chapter-376-page-6.html) because he was having significant troubles against so many of Stark's ceros (http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-chapter-375-page-18.html). (which is when we then see Ukitake come in and intervene)

Not to mention that the ceros the were giving shunsui no much troubles, were completely ineffective against Maskless Shikai Love (http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-chapter-385-page-8.html).

And besides Shunsui's cheap shot that you mentioned, which was attacking Stark from behind while Stark was focused on Love and Rose (http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-chapter-387-page-3.html), there is also the fact that Shunsui never even had to face Stark's soul wolves assaults, which was Stark's ultimate technique apparently.

Shunsui is definitely strong, but stating that he's so great because he came and beat the released espada #1 while using only his Shikai...is not telling the whole story. Granted that's not exactly what you stated, but a lot of people seem to interpret it that way...

I still believe that Rose is on higher level than Byakuya. Therefore, for this fight...Shikai Rose should be able to beat Shikai Byakuya. And shikai + Mask Rose could still be, at least, a close match Vs Bankai Byakuya. (I think mainly due to shikai + Mask Rose being significantly powerful, but then Bankai Byakuya does have his very powerful moves like Senkei...so that could be trouble.)

Random101
December 04, 2010, 03:31 AM
we actually find out later in the TBTP arc that Shunsui, Ukitake, and Unohana are the only remnants of the original guard from a century ago (I'm not counting Yama), which means that as of now... they have been captains for about 200 years.
You interpreted that wrong. He's saying they're the only captains who were also captains 100 years ago from that point in time. Not that they just started being captains at that point in time. The conversation goes over the changing the lineup of captains, not necessarily who started when. And if no one became a captain for roughly 2000 years that's pretty sad.

On the masks and wolves, you're proving that there's virtually no difference between their mask and base states with that line of logic, which only downplays them all the more. On Shunsui being about to go Bankai, he clearly outright stated his sword wasn't in the mood previously, which is why his shikai is finicky, and was dodging plain fine before Ukitake showed up.


On the other hand, we do see Byakuya using Bankai quite often in most of his fights because his Shikai just plainly isn't good enough against stronger opponents. He even used his Bankai on Espada #7, who's no where near Espada #1...
That speaks of the vast difference between his bankai and shikai, not of his overall skill there. His shikai does indeed blow against anything other than mooks. So does Gin's, and Ikkaku's, and most melee type shikai in fact. His bankai, much like Gin's in fact, on the other hand is a completely different story. The thing is one of the most versatile is the series, bar again Hyorinmaru. In terms of quality, defense, offense, and indeed variety of what he can do with it far outstrip the suckiness of his shikai.

This is specifically why I say Byakuya loses in pure shikai, especially without Kido, it completely blows for non mooks. Bankai however and Rose and his tiny explosion now have to deal with the offensive force of an ocean of blades. Just getting through that is going to be rough. And while those are correct that captain levels will be able to survive direct hits with it, without something akin to hierro, which none of them have, repeated hits is really bad news.

Granted if he goes senkei though it blows hard, given he uses at most two swords per hand in that state, but his final form is way more dangerous to say the least.

Takahashi
December 04, 2010, 05:18 AM
The Rose Vs hollow Ichigo fight wasn't the only argument that I used to support my reasoning for Rose being significantly strong though.

And you're right, Hiyori and Mashiro both had their turns too. They all had 10 minutes each inside that barrier to hold off/fight that hollow Ichigo.

I never said it was your only argument, I said it was flawed given that even the weak Vaizards were just fine fighting Hollow Ichigo. The way I see it, if you're using one off panel example to buff up Rose, then you've got to say that Hiyori and Mashiro can compete with Byakuya, given that they spent an identical amount of time fighting Hollow Ichigo. If not, then clearly the example is too vague, or the feat just wasn't as impressive as you made it seem.



I beg to differ here. At least it's not exactly how you put it anyway. Hiyori was provoked by Aizen (http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-chapter-390-page-11.html) and even though Shinji had told her to calm down and keep her cool (http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-chapter-390-page-8.html), Hiyori didn't listen and in her rage she charged (http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-chapter-390-page-12.html) blindly (with no Mask too), at Aizen. Then we see that it's Gin who from a distance and completely out of nowhere stabbed Hyori with his Shinsou (http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-chapter-390-page-14.html). That's a completely different circumstance from when they were trying to hold off hollow Ichigo inside the barrier in the vaizard's training grounds. This is because when they went inside the barrier to hold hollow Ichigo, they actually knew exactly what they were getting into, and were prepared for it.

Again, not making this a VC Vaizard discussion. It's also not neccesary to link the hell out of something we all have in recent memory :blink




As for Mashiro, different circumstances as well. She used her Mask the whole time due to her overconfidence since she noticed that she was beating unreleased Wonderweiss quite easily, and she wasn't even using her zanpakutou. She didn't listen to Kensei's warning about getting exhausted and running out of time with her Mask (http://www.mangafox.com/manga/bleach/v43/c376/9.html). As a result, her Mask did run out of time and break (http://www.mangafox.com/manga/bleach/v43/c376/15.html), and she was then exhausted after pushing her Mask to the limit (as indicated by Kensei). We see that her Mask broke completely unexpectedly on her as she was in mid air and on her way down to attack her enemy. Wonderweiss took advantage of Mashiro's exhaustion, her surprise after seeing her Mask break, and her momentum as she was in mid air on her way down to strike her enemy who was below her, as we see wonderweiss then brutally punching Mashiro in the face (http://www.mangafox.com/manga/bleach/v43/c376/16.html) in the middle of all that.

How exactly is exhausting all of your energy and being taken out by a single punch a defense of Mashiro?


Due to the circumstances in those events, I really can't count those cases as one shots...and then say that they are weak because of that. I suppose they were being stupid in those cases and that's why they got hurt, Hyori for not listening to Shinji... and Mashiro for not listening to Kensei. The fights inside Hachi's barrier against hollow Ichigo was a completely different circumstance and scenario. They knew exactly what they were getting into and were more careful, and were prepared to do whatever was needed for 10 minutes each to hold off that hollow Ichigo.

Feel free to disregard their defeats in FKT, but if you do that, what possible reason could you have to defend them? If you are going to ignore the ways they lost, how can you use the fights they did well in as a defense? (which was only one, Mashiro fighting WW)



Although, Wonderweiss was still actually pretty brutal and likely one of the strongest arrancars that Aizen had, if not that strongest. Wonderweiss did stab Ukitake in the back and took him down completely with that one hit. Ukitake didn't sense or see anything coming his way until it was too late for him to do anything. (http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-chapter-377-page-8.html) The same guy a lot of you believe is very strong and call him a "senior captain." Granted he is an old and experienced captain and all that, but at the same time... you guys are saying that being old doesn't mean anything, so yeah. And besides, what El Samurai Guapo and I have really stated is that not only was Rose a captain when Byakuya was just kid, but also that the vaizards had their own training grounds (http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-chapter-218-page-3.html), and they all had the motivation to train hard for all this 100+ years to get even stronger in order to get their revenge on Aizen. We all know how completely broken Aizen's LOLillusions are though...

Again, not supporting Ukitake at all, nor the idea that being old is an instant win over a younger one.


On the other hand, soul society had no such motivation for training as hard since the captains there were completely oblivious or unaware of Aizen's true nature and his plans. Granted Byakuya still trained to be where he is now as a captain, obviously;however, I believe that the vaizards must have trained even harder to get even stronger than they already were. Not to mention again, that Byakuya tends to rely on his Bankai too much to take down his opponents, while other more experienced fighters such as shunsui, shinji, love, rose etc have not had such need to reveal their bankai just yet, which is their secret move...as stated by Shunsui. (http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-chapter-374-page-11.html) Although granted Shunsui almost did release his bankai (http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-chapter-376-page-6.html)...had Ukitake not intervened when released Stark was attacking Shunsui with all his ceros (http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-chapter-375-page-18.html). And Love and Rose were likely getting ready to do Bankai as well... after receiving several assaults from released Stark's ultimate soul wolves technique. Then again though, Byakuya actually did use his Bankai on Espada #7, who's nowhere near close to Espada #1...

You know how Kubo does things, when we see a Bankai once, it'll happen in every fight. It's not whether they need it or not, if it was, everyone would use Bankai against Aizen.

They do and don't use Bankai's for plot reasons and mystery, frequency does not equal dependency.

Also, bringing how much you think they've trained has nothing to do with anything.

I also find it weird that you're bringing Espada numbers into account, would Rose beat Zommari while defending Rukia? Doubt it. His ability isn't suited for it, you should all know by now that ability dictates the winner, someone without a way to render Zommari's eyes useless would have lost.

Stark had some nice moves, but nothing that actually required a specific ability to defeat. With no common fight, it's kinda hard to use such basic logic as "1 is better than 7".




I wouldn't consider them pretty pathetic without the Masks though, but I suppose we have different opinions about the vaizards. I think that even Hiyori and Mashiro have gotten significantly stronger after all their training for 100+ years.

What have they accomplished WITHOUT their masks that was even remotely impressive? It's not unfair for me to say because we've seen nothing so far.


We don't know how exactly Hiyori's and Mashiro's fight went inside the barrier, but they could have used their Shikai, which may have some abilities... as most shikais do (I also believe that they may have Bankai by now too, but that's another discussion. We might find out eventually if they really do...). Furthermore, Hiyori and Mashiro really only had to hold that hollow Ichigo for 10 minutes each, they didn't necessarily have to give an spectacular match. Nevertheless, I'm sure other fighters such as Rose and Love did put up a better actual fight since I think that they're still overall stronger and more experienced than Hiyori and Mashiro. I still think that Hiyori and Mashiro are pretty strong in their own right though.

If you're going to say that Hiyori and Mashiro may have used their Shikai, then AGAIN, that is true for Rose as well. Everything here is speculation, but you're defending it without evidence.




Or maybe the vaizards are just that good and skilled. (Hiyori and Mashiro included when they're actually focused, and not being dumb)

Hachi and Shinji are, no one else has given us good solid evidence to believe otherwise.

I won't bother responding to the long 3rd and 2nd parts about the balance of the thread, I replied in my last post to basically the exact same thing.



Well, I believe that anyone who thinks that shikai Byakuya can win against shikai Rose clearly WANTS Byakuya to win. But hey... that's my opinion, and you have yours...

There's a difference, Rose doesn't have enough screentime for us to believe that he's some amazingly powerful captain like you guys are suggesting. Byakuya has shown us pretty much more than any other captain, there's a lot of techniques that we KNOW he's proficient in, when I defend Byakuya, there's no need to use off screen examples and assumptions on training.

El Samurai Guapo
December 04, 2010, 03:21 PM
There's a difference, Rose doesn't have enough screentime for us to believe that he's some amazingly powerful captain like you guys are suggesting. Byakuya has shown us pretty much more than any other captain, there's a lot of techniques that we KNOW he's proficient in, when I defend Byakuya, there's no need to use off screen examples and assumptions on training.

In other words, Rose is weak until he proves otherwise.

While you have characters like Unohana, who hasn't done shit yet, and look at how most people rank her. Usually in the very top tier. Not saying you do, but most people in general.

See this is what I don't get. The fact that he was a captain (still is obviously, as far as strength goes) tells us absolutely nothing? The current Byakuya may be a bit stronger than the Rose of 100 years ago (or vice versa), because not all captains are at the same exact level, but they're all close enough. Byakuya certainly wouldn't be having an easy time against another one of the current gotei captains. Now if this was one of the current captains with the added boost of hollowfication vs. Byakuya...

...if this was vaizard Toushirou, vaizard Sajin, vaizard Kenpachi, or vaizard Soi Fon, I think all but the most die hard Byakuya fans would say he'd be toast.

Maybe this isn't the case with you, but I don't think it's lack of information that causes most people to underrate the non-Shinji vaizards. In fact, prior to FKT they weren't underrated nearly as bad (some say they were even overrated). In other words, looking at Love and Rose in particular, it's their performance against Starrk by which they are being judged as weak by captain standards. Which is why I commented early-on in this thread that I would have loved to witness Byakuya go up against the primera espada's ultimate technique and do any better. Even with his bankai he'd be screwed . I can say this for certain because we've seen pretty much all his bankai can do (unlike Rose and his shikai), and none of it's forms provide a defense against the spirit wolves. He can't detonate them or destroy them with senbonzakura, they're like flames, the petals will just pass through them. They can reform from any damage, and there is at least 50 of them, all of which are very fast and attack from different angles. Now that I think of it, the wolves are almost like a far superior version of Byakuya's bankai, as I'm pretty sure they're being remotely controlled by Starrk himself.

Random101
December 04, 2010, 03:27 PM
...if this was vaizard Toushirou, vaizard Sajin, vaizard Kenpachi, or vaizard Soi Fon, I think all but the most die hard Byakuya fans would say he'd be toast.
Not if they were reduced to shikai and we had no idea what their bankai's were. And even the without a speed boost to Komamura and some kind of defense for Soifon they'd still have a hard time with it.

The issue you're misssing is that this isn't a captain level Vizard Rose vs. captain level Byakuya, that's them in shikai and that I take Rose because his doesn't suck as hard. This is Bankai Level Byakuya, who has one of the better currently known bankai in the series for both defense and offense, vs Shikai Rose with mask. His piddly explosion probably wouldn't do jack all to his defenses, particularly since we have nothing to go on with the strength of it, and that song thing he had probably isn't usable on non mooks, if that wasn't tried against Aizen to at least slow the dude down.

El Samurai Guapo
December 04, 2010, 03:43 PM
Not if they were reduced to shikai and we had no idea what their bankai's were. And even the without a speed boost to Komamura and some kind of defense for Soifon they'd still have a hard time with it.

The issue you're misssing is that this isn't a captain level Vizard Rose vs. captain level Byakuya, that's them in shikai and that I take Rose because his doesn't suck as hard. This is Bankai Level Byakuya, who has one of the better currently known bankai in the series for both defense and offense, vs Shikai Rose with mask.

I'm not missing that key issue, I'm fully aware of it. I was waiting for somebody to bring it up. Nobody other than Jackk or myself to this point has mentioned that Rose is the one at a disadvantage cause of lack of bankai. The others have been saying Byakuya's the one being handicapped here cause lack of kidou. The vibe I kind of get from a lot of posters here is bankai wouldn't make a difference for Rose, cause even shikai vs. shikai apparently Rose loses.

You know what, I think I'm just going to delete scenario 2 in the OP. The poll only has one option for either Byakuya or Rose anyway.

(edit) done.


that song thing he had probably isn't usable on non mooks, if that wasn't tried against Aizen to at least slow the dude down.

Well, I think that has more to do with what you mentioned earlier about Kubo introducing too many good guys and not enough enemies. Assuming it wasn't bad writing though, I think the captains and vaizards were seriously underestimating both Aizen's base strength and his shikai, and thought they could take him out just by throwing numbers at him. Look at how shocked they all were when they realized they'd been fighting an illusion the entire time. Or when Toushirou charged at him and told him he would kill him before he got a chance to use KS. Seems like they had no idea Aizen could activate it at any moment without them realizing. Another possibility is that the hypnotism is an ability Rose gains from hollowfication, as sealed zanpakutous don't tend to have latent traits. Matter fact, I kind of have to say that the latter explanation is true, as I've argued before in other threads that Isshin must have been in shikai since he used GT.

Hystzen
December 04, 2010, 04:31 PM
i been watching this thread it still has the same trouble as rest of them.

people read word VIZARD they insta ignore them and shout fail group.

they only failed coz kubo had no idea how to use them in FKT battle good idea at first bring them in but caved into making gotei 13 good.

but double backing

byakuya is THE most rounded character in gotei13 at moment he got speed , kido (yea not in this fight) and skill.

rose no idea what he is but the age points that shunsui fanboys hark on about do apply to vizards he no doubt strong maybe at his limit

but we never seen him enugh to judge fully.

unless we go all unohana mode (she done nothing people shout she top tier under yamma :o) which case is elder captain plus mask = shunsui level

but that is stupid without proof

Crystal Black
December 04, 2010, 06:05 PM
Byakuya wins either scenario imo. Either way you look at it he's just to well rounded for Rose. We can all except rose as a capable captain/character but as of now I don't see how he or any other vizard besides Shinji could defeat Byakuya. It's really simple the handicaps won't really mean much, but Byakuya will have to stay consistent. This only for shikai too. Bankai Byakuya will absolutely obliterate Rose. Although taking his kido away his a problem because of his style of fighting but I believe he can cope with it.

Random101
December 04, 2010, 06:14 PM
The vibe I kind of get from a lot of posters here is bankai wouldn't make a difference for Rose, cause even shikai vs. shikai apparently Rose loses.
Indeed bankai won't make a difference. Depending on what it is. Byakuya's bankai is hard to deal with because its offensive force is so numerous and overwhelming that many characters simply cannot deal with it easily. It's main state is ranged, overwhelming, and able to effortlessly defend and attack at the same time, and though senkei blows hard, his final state is an overwhelming melee offensive in itself. If Rose's bankai is say, just a longer whip with somewhat more potent sonatas for example, it wouldn't make a difference overall (Save upping the difficulty in which Byakuya has to take him down) because Byakuya's defense and offense is just that good.

However if its something else that brings more to the table, it's certainly got the potential to give him an edge. The problem is we don't know what it is at all at this point.

El Samurai Guapo
December 04, 2010, 06:21 PM
Well that's irrelevant now, I changed the OP so this is now strictly a shikai vs. shikai match up.

From now on everyone, Byakuya is no longer allowed to use his bankai and Rose can't use his mask either.

Gran Maestro
December 04, 2010, 06:46 PM
Byakuya's shikai is not impressive but he's fast enough to dodge Rose's whip, I think he would prove victorious over Rose in a sword fight. If kido is not allowed, Rose with mask may win against Byakuya. If Rose's bankai is not a very good upgrade over his shikai, I think Byakuya would have the edge against Rose in a fight of bankais. I will be a bit skeptical about the usefulness of these masks until I see a vizard hold it long enough and defeat an opponent by making great use of it. They are underwhelming at the moment.

Takahashi
December 04, 2010, 06:56 PM
In other words, Rose is weak until he proves otherwise.

I've said repeatedly that Rose can't be weak, he WAS a captain after all, and he also has hollow powers. I DO however think it's ridiculous to put him above a captain who's fought and proved himself in a myriad of scenarios just because a guy with a mask blew up a Menos.


While you have characters like Unohana, who hasn't done shit yet, and look at how most people rank her. Usually in the very top tier. Not saying you do, but most people in general.

I've never really pushed the idea, but this is different than the older = winner logic. As far as I can remember, she was the teacher of Shunsui and Ukitake (or something along those lines). So it's not ridiculous to assume that she's pretty damn strong.


See this is what I don't get. The fact that he was a captain (still is obviously, as far as strength goes) tells us absolutely nothing? The current Byakuya may be a bit stronger than the Rose of 100 years ago (or vice versa), because not all captains are at the same exact level, but they're all close enough. Byakuya certainly wouldn't be having an easy time against another one of the current gotei captains. Now if this was one of the current captains with the added boost of hollowfication vs. Byakuya...

...if this was vaizard Toushirou, vaizard Sajin, vaizard Kenpachi, or vaizard Soi Fon, I think all but the most die hard Byakuya fans would say he'd be toast.

This is completely different because all of the captains you mentioned have shown a lot, we know what they're capable of. In addition, if they were restriced to Shikai when we have no real idea what their actual ability is, I'd have a tough time voting for them either.

Basically what I'm saying is, I think you're giving an automatic win to Rose simply because he has a mask, and you think if there's two captains, the one with the mask automatically wins. You've tried to defend his Shikai's power, and exaggerated its power to a ridiculous amount. Again, you're not going by any real proof, you're trying to find a reason for Rose to be better, because none of us really have any evidence to bash or defend the guy.


Maybe this isn't the case with you, but I don't think it's lack of information that causes most people to underrate the non-Shinji vaizards. In fact, prior to FKT they weren't underrated nearly as bad (some say they were even overrated). In other words, looking at Love and Rose in particular, it's their performance against Starrk by which they are being judged as weak by captain standards. Which is why I commented early-on in this thread that I would have loved to witness Byakuya go up against the primera espada's ultimate technique and do any better. Even with his bankai he'd be screwed . I can say this for certain because we've seen pretty much all his bankai can do (unlike Rose and his shikai), and none of it's forms provide a defense against the spirit wolves. He can't detonate them or destroy them with senbonzakura, they're like flames, the petals will just pass through them. They can reform from any damage, and there is at least 50 of them, all of which are very fast and attack from different angles. Now that I think of it, the wolves are almost like a far superior version of Byakuya's bankai, as I'm pretty sure they're being remotely controlled by Starrk himself.

You're saying Byakuya would lose to Stark because his ability isn't suited for it, did you not read my last post despite the fact that you quoted the last bit? Rose would be raped by Zommari because his ability isn't suited for it. This is NOT what the discussion is, it's Rose VS Byakuya, not, "who's ability is better to take on the Primera".

Also, if you're restricting it to no mask and no Bankai, you kinda killed the discussion part. Byakuya's Shikai isn't all that great, and Rose's Shikai killed a Menos and hit some spirit wolves. Byakuya's Shikai may suck, but Rose's doesn't look any better from what I've seen (especially since he was using a mask to kill the Menos as well).

I'd bet that Byakuya is significantly faster than him, he was trained by Yoroichi after all, but not having Kido sucks.

You should have just made this an ability vs ability topic, when we include the characters, we have to think of so many more factors, and Rose hasn't shown enough. Then again, Rose's Shikai hasn't shown enough either. It's a whip with explosions.

Has it shown enough power to assume that it can not only blow up all of the petals, but hurt Byakuya at the same time? If it can't, well the petals will just build up a defense again.

How many times can it be used in succession (Renji's was 5 or something)? If he cannot continuously blow shit up, how will he win?

Is the whip fast enough to hit a Shunpo-ing Byakuya? He can hit the petals all he wants, but if he has to focus on blowing up all of the petals and hitting an enemy likely much faster than his whip, how will he win?

Just a couple questions off the top of my head that I have NO answer to at all, neither do you. I just don't think this matchup is suitable when there's one guy we know everything about and another we know nothing about.

ninjabot
December 04, 2010, 10:11 PM
Shikai Byakuya vs. Shikai Rose? Byakuya still wins, infact I held that he would win before even arguing about the bankai/vaizard stuff. While he can't use shikai to block attacks the way he does with bankai, that doesn't prevent him from being able to guide his shikai to any target area he wishes. Byakuya will have to stay on the move, but with greater speed feats than Rose no one (NO ONE) should doubt his ability to dodge Rose's whip or outpace him. Bait-and-switch with Cicada should spell an end for Rose.

Though I find it sad we had to take both bankai AND kidou away from Byakuya (2 of his 3 greatest strengths) just to give Rose a real chance. He'll be missing Shunpo and Cicada by page 7, lol.

Random101
December 04, 2010, 10:21 PM
I don't doubt his ability to dodge the whip. It's the explosion that makes things tricky. Take too many of those and someone's days bout to be ruined.

ninjabot
December 04, 2010, 11:15 PM
True. But as far as we know the explosion is limited to the area infront of the tip of the whip. Dodge the tip, you dodge the explosion. He could even be struck with the side of the weapon without being hit with Izayoi Bara...unless it wraps around close enough that the tip connects with Byakuya.

Random101
December 05, 2010, 12:22 AM
Actually it kind of blossoms from the flower at the end of it, so it get's crap behind and around it too, from what I could tell. Hence it'd be tricky to get him Basically what's going to be happening is it's going to be a swordsman against a whipper here, who also has access to a grenade. It'll take a while, particularly since Byakuya's damn good with speed, but without Kido his offense is lacking in comparison.

Jackk
December 05, 2010, 01:11 AM
You interpreted that wrong. He's saying they're the only captains who were also captains 100 years ago from that point in time. Not that they just started being captains at that point in time. The conversation goes over the changing the lineup of captains, not necessarily who started when.

Or maybe you're the one who interpreted that wrong. It's certainly something to consider.

Check inside the following spoiler for my explanation:

In the TBTP arc, Shunsui did not exactly say: "The old man, Ukitake, and me are the only captains who were also captains 100 years ago." ....That's really only how you want to interpret it because you want them to be captains for more than 2 thousand years.... so that you can say that they have a lot more experience and therefore are better than anyone else;however, even them being older like that wouldn't necessarily make them better than anyone else.

In the TBTP arc, Shunsui actually says: "I mean, the only remnants of the original guard from a century ago is the old man, Ukitake, and me..." Then Ukitake says: "You're missing one. Captain Unohana as well."

http://www.mangafox.com/manga/bleach/v36/c315.1/14.html

Notice the "original guard" and the "from a century ago" there. Shunsui, Ukitake, and Unohana were part of that original guard about 200 years ago (as of now), and they are the only remnants from that original guard. That's all it's saying. It doesn't say anywhere that they were captains for about 2 thousand years. Therefore, I naturally took it as them being captains for about 200 years from what Shunsui said in the TBTP arc.

Otherwise, if they were really captains for about 2 thousand years, why didn't Shunsui just say: "I mean, the only remnants of the original guard from 2 millenniums ago is the old man, Ukitake, and me..." ? ... Kubo could have make him say that if he wanted to tell us that they have been Captains for about 2 thousand years, but he didn't say that.

Furthermore, I see another issue with your assumption that Shunsui and Ukitake have to be captains for about 2 thousand years, which also would mean that they are more than 2 thousand years old.

What I mean is that there is a problem with their age and physical appearance not matching. (Explained inside the following spoiler)

First, We know Rukia has been alive about 10 more times than Ichigo has been alive (http://www.mangafox.com/manga/bleach/v01/c001/17.html), meaning that Rukia would be about 150 years old. Based on Ichigo being 15 years old (http://www.mangafox.com/manga/bleach/v01/c001/4.html) at the beginning of the manga;therefore... 15 * 10 = 150. Due to the fact that shinigamis do age at a slower rate, Rukia looks like a person of Ichigo's age... even though she's really about 150 years old.

Now, assuming an 150 year old shinigami is roughly like a 15 year old human in terms of physical appearance, based on the things noted above and particularly based on the fact that shinigamis do physically age at a slower rate... then we can do the following: 15 * 6 = 90, in other words, a human who has lived for 6 times Ichigo's life...would be a 90 year old human.

Now, if we assume that a shinigami such as Shunsui has lived 6 times the life of Rukia (rukia is about 150 years old), then it would be: 150 * 6 = 900 years old; however, a 900 year old shinigami should already have the physical appearance of a 90 year old human. I don't think that Shunsui looks that old though.

Now look, if Shunsui was, let's say: 2040 years old, based on you claiming that Shunsui has been a captain for 2000 years, but surely he was not a captain as a baby...so he, himself, would have to be even older than 2 thousand years. I'll be extremely generous and assume that Shunsui was born and then only took him 40 years of his life to become a captain. That really sounds ridiculous based on even you stating that Byakuya became a captain about 60 years ago in one of your posts, thus Rose only has about 40 years on Byakuya there. Add to that however old Byakuya already was as a kid in the TBTP arc... before those 60 years, and Byakuya who's considered very talented took from the moment of his birth... more than 60 years to become captain.

Still, let's still assume that it only took Shunsui 40 years to become captain from the moment he was born, and let's say that he's then at least 2040 years old (based on you claiming that he has been a captain for about 2000 years): We would have to do: 150 * 13.6 = 2040 years old. (the age we're giving Shunsui, which is 13.6 times Rukia's age of 150...and it is also 136 times Ichigo's life of 15 years at the beginning of the manga). Now, the problem is that that would mean that Shunsui would have to have the physical appearance of a 204 year old human. ( 15 * 13.6 = 204);however, Shunsui definitely does NOT have the physical appearance of a 204 year old human; he doesn't look that old, does he? (assuming humans can even live that long... but that would definitely look extremely old)

Shunsui definitely does not have the appearance of an old man. The oldest I would give him would be something around 45 years (15 * 3 = 45) in terms of human physical appearance, which based on the fact that shinigami's age at a slower rate... shunsui's real age should be about 450 (150 * 3, which is 3 times the life of Rukia). That makes a lot more sense. With that, and the fact that Shunsui stated in the TBTP arc that only he, Ukitake, and Unohana are the only remnants of the original guard of a century ago, it would mean that they have been captains for at least 200 years (as of now), and since considering other factors we can estimate his age to be about 450...there is no way that he could have been a captain for 2000 years.



And if no one became a captain for roughly 2000 years that's pretty sad.

Who says that becoming a captain through graduating from the academy is the only way to become a captain though?

I'll explain what I'm talking about in following spoiler:

We know that there are 3 different ways of becoming a captain (I'm not going to type the 3 methods here, just check the link) as noted by Tousen (http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-chapter-146-page-1.html) in the SS arc. (Kenpachi became a captain by killing the previous 11th squad captain (http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-chapter-146-page-2.html) in front of 200 or more members of the 11th division, which is only one of the 3 methods for becoming a captain. I'm sure that none of the methods listed by Tousen require a the shinigami to have necessarily gone through the Academy.

Not to mention, that it's also certainly very possible that there had not been any vacancies for captain positions in the old Gotei 13 for a long time... and if there were open positions at some point, someone could have been appointed without that person having to go through the academy if that person met the requirement to be a captain of the Gotei 13, had recommendations, was tested for it and supervised by other current captains etc.

Further, we know for a fact that even though Yamamoto founded his own shinigami academy around 2100 years ago (also, here is Renji's profile page that I was talking about in another post... where Kubo stated that Renji was a graduate of the 2066th year of the shinigami school (http://www.mangafox.com/manga/bleach/v09/c079/23.html).), Yama has still only been the Captain commander for the Gotei 13 for the past 1000 years, and there were 29 more Captain commanders of the Gotei 13 before Yama (http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-chapter-407-page-7.html). That's an extremely long history for the Gotei 13, but it makes sense for that organization to be god knows how old... considering that soul society is the place souls go to (besides those souls that actually end up going to hell). You think there was a Gotei 13 with no captains during all the previous generations while the previous 29 captain commanders were serving (Yama is the 30th Captain commander), just because Yama's shinigami school didn't exist yet? ...There obviously were many more captains and they didn't leave their positions as captains just because Yama is training other shinigamis in his new academy.

And this also means that Yama wasn't even the captain commander around 2100 years ago when he founded his shinigami academy, he was likely some sort of captain though...but not the captain commander since he has only been the captain commander for the past 1000 years. That would also mean that Yama was a normal captain at the same time as Shunsui and Ukitake for around 1000 years, if you still want to insist on claiming that Shunsui and Ukitake have been captains for 2000 years. I don't buy the notion that Yama, shunsui and Ukitake all served together as fellow captains under another captain commander... until Yama became the new captain commander (not to mention their age, which wouldn't match Shunsui's and Ukitake's physical appearance at all...which I explained earlier. Shunsui and Ukitake are just not that old).


Sorry, but Shunsui and Ukitake being more than 2000 years old, and being captains for 2000 years doesn't make any sense. And it's not stated anywhere by Kubo either. Again the most recent relevant reference that we have is in the TBTP arc, where Kubo stated that Shunsui, Ukitake, and Unohana are the only remnants of the original guard of a century ago, which, at the very least, would mean that they have been captains for at least 200 years (as of now). We should be able to agree with that much; however, it makes no sense for them to have been captains for 2 thousand years. I've already explained very in depth why it just wouldn't make sense. The only one that we know who's logically more than 2 thousand years old is Yamamoto (since he founded his academy around that time), but Yama actually does look extremely old, and always has in every single flashback that we've seen him on too.

It's really not stated anywhere when exactly shunsui and Ukitake graduated from Yama's academy (only that apparently they were the firsts to become captains through Yama's academy. Again, there are other ways of becoming captain...you don't necessarily have to go through the academy), and it's not stated anywhere that they have been captains for 2000 years (that makes no sense to me. And I already listed several reasons).

Now, if after all that, you still want to assume that Shunsui and Ukitake were really captains for about 2000 years, then you would be faced with this: (inside the following spoiler)

It's not like these captains are always fighting, they're actually usually writing papers, attending meetings, drinking sake... and stuff like that. And if they had already pretty much reached their own shinigami limit, which I would think that they would have a long time ago...if they're any good, considering that they have been captains for about 2 thousand years according to you, then there's not much training to do for them besides just some every now and then... just so they don't get rusty.

Even if they were really more than 2000 years old, then it may actually downplay their abilities/power somewhat since they should be a lot more powerful after so many thousands of years now, unless they had hit their limit a long time ago...which would make a lot of sense, but then that would mean that their limit isn't that high. I mean, Shunsui even said that Hitsugaya could surpass him in 100 more years. Granted Hitsugaya is said to be a "genius" apparently, but even so...it would mean that there can be people that are much better at getting more powerful quicker than Shunsui and should be able to surpass him. (and different people may have different limits etc.)

Further, in FKT shunsui was having troubles with Stark's ceros.... while those same ceros were absolutely worthless and ineffective against a Maskless Love, who must be much inferior than Shunsui if we use your line of logic.... since Shunsui is more than 2000 years old according to you.

Honestly, Shunsui's display against stark wasn't really any better than Love's... considering that Ukitake had to intervene because Shunsui was having significant troubles with Stark's ceros, yet Love was blocking them with his shikai like they were nothing. In addition, Shunsui never had to face Stark's soul wolves, which was his ultimate technique apparently. I would have liked to see Shunsui fighting those wolves... Shunsui didn't beat Espada #1 alone in a fair fight, we all know this.


On the masks and wolves, you're proving that there's virtually no difference between their mask and base states with that line of logic, which only downplays them all the more.

No, that's not what I was proving. You missed my point entirely in my last post. What I proved is that Love and Rose can even take quite a beating without their Masks on. How does that prove that "there's virtually no difference between their mask and base states" ? I don't understand your logic there. We already know that their Masks provide them with extra defense. Further, we saw them take only one soul wolves assault from Stark at the end while they were not wearing their Masks, and we saw that they obviously took more damage without their Masks than they did the first time when they took the wolves explosions with their Masks on.

I don't think that they could have kept taking those soul wolves explosions many more times, which is why I believe that they were getting ready to go Bankai when Shunsui came in and played dirty...and interrupted their fight.



On Shunsui being about to go Bankai, he clearly outright stated his sword wasn't in the mood previously, which is why his shikai is finicky, and was dodging plain fine before Ukitake showed up.

Which still means that Shunsui was going to go Bankai because he was having troubles avoiding all those ceros from Stark, to the point that Ukitake had to intervene or Shunsui would have really been blasted... had he not done something such as going Bankai. Seriously, Shunsui himself outright stated that he was just about to use his Bankai.

Also, what would have been Shunsui's counter to Stark's soul wolves that just keep chasing you and reforming...and then explode when they bite you? Again, Shunsui never even had to face Stark's wolves while Love and Rose did. Big difference there. Shunsui didn't beat Espada #1 alone in a fair fight, we all know this. I like Shunsui, he's actually one of my favorite characters, but there's no reason to exaggerate things in order to make him look even better than he already is man.

Also, I would really love to see how Byakuya deals with released Espada #1, Stark.

What would Byakuya do against so many ceros?

What would Byakuaya do against all the massively dangerous soul wolves, which was apparently Stark's ultimate technique?


That speaks of the vast difference between his bankai and shikai, not of his overall skill there. His shikai does indeed blow against anything other than mooks.

See, I actually agree with you here. Byakuya's shikai is just not good enough against stronger opponents, which is why he had to rely more on his Bankai quite frequently in most of his fights. Granted I also did acknowledge that Byakuya's Bankai is quite versatile and has very powerful moves specially in senkei that could be serious troubles for even Shikai + Mask Rose. I still think that it wouldn't be easy for Bankai Byakuya to take down Shikai + Mask Rose though, and I can't see Shikai + Mask Rose as having no chances of winning at all either.

At any rate, the thing I'm having the hardest time in trying to understand though... is how can people claim that Shikai Byakuaya would still easily defeat Shikai Rose? ...That makes no sense to me. I honestly can't see how Byakuya's shikai could beat Rose's Shikai. Particularly because Rose's shikai seems more versatile and more powerful than Byakuya's shikai.

I still also see Rose in a higher level than Byakuya. Rose is not only older and more experienced, but he also kept training hard for 100+ years to became even stronger than he already was as a captain...in order to get revenge on Aizen (but LOLillusions etc.), and he also acquired hollowficaton which boosts him significantly more too. Further, Rose hasn't even had the need to use his Bankai, not to mention that he still has Bankai + Mask too. Even if we don't know what exactly Rose's Bankai is, we clearly already know that it's certainly going to seriously boost him even further...along with whatever other abilities he may get. Make that Bankai + Mask...and Byakuaya will have no way to keep up with Rose's full power. It's just common sense.

It's obvious that the one with the real handicaps here is Rose. It should be pretty obvious that Rose at full power should be more powerful than Byakuya at full power. The thing that the unknown extra sonatas of Rose shikai, and his more powerful abilities in Bankai will determine is the degree to which Byakuya would get raped. That's how I see it.

Either way though, I suppose all that is now moot...now that El Samurai Guapo changed the rules of this fight to just Shikai Byakuya Vs Shikai Rose. Funny thing is: People are STILL claiming that Byakuya would win this... even in a pure shikai Vs shikai fight.

Why do people hate Rose and the vaizards so much?

Random101
December 05, 2010, 02:07 AM
Or maybe you're the one who interpreted that wrong. It's certainly something to consider.
No, again, you're reading that wrong. Keep this part in mind: They are discussing the consistently changing ranks of the captains at this point in time. Follow the flow of the conversation. What he's saying is that the only captains now who were also captains 100 years ago are the four of them. Not that the four of them only became captains 100 years prior. This is key, particularly since we know Yamamoto had been CC for around 900 years by that point in time.

You're also playing WAY too much stock into him saying Original Guard there. You might have a point with that, had Yamamoto not also been counted, who we know has been top dog for way longer than that, and likely still a captain for far longer. As it stands Original Guard appears to be another way to say those of the captains rank frankly.

Course I'm not saying it's a sure thing, I'm just saying it's ludicrous to assume Ukitake and Shunsui being the first to become captains after the academy was founded 2000 years ago only became captains recently. Especially when they're decidedly not saying what you want them to be saying.


Further, in FKT shunsui was having troubles with Stark's ceros.... while those same ceros were absolutely worthless and ineffective against a Maskless Love, who must be much inferior than Shunsui if we use your line of logic.... since Shunsui is more than 2000 years old according to you.
What troubles? He was one guy dodging them with ease and took a point blank shot and was basically only a little chared after. Love and Rose were taking him together and apparently only got hits in when he was being all down about Barragon. And even then they did no lasting harm to him. Despite at least one direct hit.

Granted he was having difficulties getting close, but he was at no point in any serious danger there.


Furthermore, I see another issue with your assumption that Shunsui and Ukitake have to be captains for about 2 thousand years, which also would mean that they are more than 2 thousand years old.
SHINIGAMI AGING DOES NOT MAKE SENSE.

Do not get me started on this one. I'm serious. Renji and Rukia were roughly the same size and assumably physical age way back 90-60 years ago, Renji had rapid aging to the point 40 years ago to the point where he looks like he does now, while Rukia's aging was barely noticeable. Gin went from Hitsugaya sized to 'full grown' in 40 or so years, and Hitsugaya's barely aged in roughly the same amount of time. Matsumoto virtually hasn't changed in forty years, etc... We could do this all day. Arguing some fixed rate simply doesn't work because they're so drastically different from each other.

Further the basic logic you're going down is flawed from the start:


Due to the fact that shinigamis do age at a slower rate, Rukia looks like a person of Ichigo's age... even though she's really about 150 years old.
You're assuming a 10x's age rate. Yamamoto founded the academy 2000 years ago. Let's assume he was a baby back then. No particular reason and it's clearly not right, but let's do that because it doesn't matter, it'd still be ludicris:

That would mean he's got to have the physical appearance of someone 200 years old bar minimum. A human live span rarely gets far past 100, and they'd look hella worse than Yamamoto does right now.

Realistically however let's say he was at least 20 or so physically then, 220 years then. Yeah. And this is before I even start with the actual examples we've seen. Gin 60 years ago looks exactly as he does now (Only not dead obviously), but 100 years ago he looks like Hitsugaya's age. So in 6 physical years he goes from 12 (Possibly less than even that) to the 20 range? And Rukia herself, who looked exactly the same 40 years ago. Yeah, no. That especially doesn't fly, because that's the point when aging is most noticable. 4 years and zero change in her physical form throws a simple 10x's aging rate comparison out of the bloody water.

Trust me, it's best to just assume Shinigami aging doesn't make sense and move on.


Yama has still only been the Captain commander for the Gotei 13 for the past 1000 years, and there were 29 more Captain commanders of the Gotei 13 before Yama.
You asked me a while ago why I assume you didn't look up any other sources. This is why, that page, translated by Mangastream, was wrong.

The gist of what they did was this: They mixed up the numbers in question. What he actually says is that he was the Captain Commander of the Gotei 10-3, which was then reversed to the 3-10 captain commander. There was a discussion on this a while ago.

Granted moot point overall, and it doesn't really affect the argument either way, but it's ALWAYS best to get your translations in order. Mangastream, while extremely HQ and very fast, suffers for that exact reason in that regard.


Again the most recent relevant reference that we have is in the TBTP arc, where Kubo stated that Shunsui, Ukitake, and Unohana are the only remnants of the original guard of a century ago, which, at the very least, would mean that they have been captains for at least 200 years (as of now)
This is indeed correct, they'd have to be it for at least that long. But what you're arguing that they had to be it for only that long doesn't fly, and the discussion you're attempting to use in defense of it, ESPECIALLY Shinigami aging don't work they way you think they do.


Even if they were really more than 2000 years old, then it may actually downplay their abilities/power somewhat since they should be a lot more powerful after so many thousands of years now, unless they had hit their limit a long time ago...
Their current feats consist of casually going up against the first espada when he was actually focused on the battle as opposed to being supremely lazy about it, both of which with shikai, Shunsui actually defeating him with some supremely broken skills, surviving an undetermined amount of time against a shikai Yamamoto, who trumps espada level Arrancar with his fists, and being the literal terror of the Gotei 13. They're plenty powerful, save Ukitake whose main limitation is his illness which often gets in the way.


Which still means that Shunsui was going to go Bankai because he was having troubles avoiding all those ceros from Stark, to the point that Ukitake had to intervene or Shunsui would have really been blasted... had he not done something such as going Bankai. Seriously, Shunsui himself outright stated that he was just about to use his Bankai.
He was having zero troubles avoiding them. He was however having troubles getting close, which is in itself due to skill matchup more than anything else. And duh he stated he was going to go bankai, and he followed up later by saying he wasn't pulling out his best tricks because his sword wasn't in the mood.


Also, what would have been Shunsui's counter to Stark's soul wolves that just keep chasing you and reforming...and then explode when they bite you?
"You didn't call a color. Let me show you how to do it. Iro Oni, Black."

THE END /Exaggeration

Though seriously, it's a reality warper, he has a lot of answers to it. Would have been rougher mind you, no one's doubting that, but so long as the sword is playing along it's hardly impossible.


No, that's not what I was proving. You missed my point entirely in my last post. What I proved is that Love and Rose can even take quite a beating without their Masks on. How does that prove that "there's virtually no difference between their mask and base states" ? I don't understand your logic there.
They come out of one wolf supremely beat up with their masks on. They come out of several at the same time slightly more beat up with them off. That proves that defensively there's zero visible difference between the masked and unmasked state for that attack.


Also, I would really love to see how Byakuya deals with released Espada #1, Stark.

What would Byakuya do against so many ceros?
Against a Starrk whose not paying attention? A lot frankly. Flashing around, Cicada, massive wall of petals, etc... Love had the advantage of his weapon for some reason being able to deflect them, Rose didn't do jack but watch in the cero state, though both of them were on the ground prior to the point when Stark was distracted, so hard to say.


The thing that the unknown extra sonatas of Rose shikai, and his more powerful abilities in Bankai will determine is the degree to which Byakuya would get raped. That's how I see it.
More powerful != more useful. Soifon is proof of that much at least. We need to see it before we can say anything valid, hence why it's best not to assume anything yet.

Jackk
December 05, 2010, 02:28 AM
Random101, we completely disagree once again. And I honestly don't intend to keep proving you wrong even more. I'm fairly certain that you didn't even read my last post completely, so yeah. It's pointless to keep arguing. If you didn't get it then, you're not going to get it no matter what. You're just going to keep denying everything no matter what. Once you have made up your mind on something, you never change your view no matter what.

You can have the last word if you, I honestly don't have the energy to continue this any longer.

I still believe that Shikai Rose would beat Shikai Byakuya. And if we lift all restrictions and all handicaps from both fighters, then I still think that: Bankai + Mask Rose would rape Bankai Byakuya.

El Samurai Guapo
December 05, 2010, 02:31 AM
"You didn't call a color. Let me show you how to do it. Iro Oni, Black."


Then a wolf bites him before he can get to Starrk and he (Shunsui) takes all the damage.

I seriously doubt Shunsui could land a hit on Starrk without a distraction like a haori to the face. I even doubt that one would have worked had Starrk not had blood gushing out of his chest (http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-chapter-387-page-10.html) (here as wel (http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-chapter-387-page-20.html)l) while playing iro oni - which you got to be Gran Maestro to say that wouldn't be slowing him down. Starrk even dodged one of Shunsui's sneak attacks (http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-chapter-376-page-17.html) while dodging Juushirou's reflected ceros simultaneously.

This is even assuming his shikai is in the mood to play iro oni. Quite frankly, when you have a zanpakutou that may not even perform when the SHTF (i.e. when Starrk brings out his wolves) it's really not as hax as people make it out to be.

Moving this back to Byakuya...I'd have a hard time believing he'd make it passed Starrk's cero metralleta stage. That cicada technique is a replacement technique that may work once, but Starrk can sit their and spam all day long. Likewise I don't think he would be dodging Kinshara that easily either. A whip controlled by a skilled user like Rose is much harder to evade than a simple dude with a sword; they can easily change directions in mid-air making them difficult to predict, while Byakuya's shikai doesn't have nearly enough petals to defend from attacks. He doesn't have a weapon in his hand either. I really can't see how anyone can give this to Byakuya in a battle of shikais.

Random101
December 05, 2010, 02:32 AM
I can dig that except the aging thing. That is irrefutable. Rukia looked visibly the same for forty years, despite her being at an age where changes are a lot more noticable, so that assumption you made on how it works bare minimum has to be wrong. There is no valid interpretation sadly that encompasses everything we know sadly as to how their aging works, it just does and we have to roll with that.


Then a wolf bites him before he can get to Starrk and he takes all the damage.

I seriously doubt Shunsui could land a hit on Starrk without a distraction like a haori to the face. Not to mention Starrk had blood gushing out of his chest while playing iro oni - which you got to be Gran Maestro to say that wouldn't be slowing him down. Starrk even dodged one of Shunsui's sneak attacks while dodging Juushirou's reflected ceros simultaneously.
Note the '/exaggeration'. Joke response was a joke dude.

Gran Maestro
December 05, 2010, 05:02 AM
I even doubt that one would have worked had Starrk not had blood gushing out of his chest (http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-chapter-387-page-10.html) (here as wel (http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-chapter-387-page-20.html)l) while playing iro oni - which you got to be Gran Maestro to say that wouldn't be slowing him down.

For the record, I just said "If Stark's injury was as serious as some people make it out to be, he wouldn't have been able to touch Shunsui at all in the color game. And if Stark was so much stronger than Shunsui that he could land a good hit on Shunsui in the color game with a grave (!) injury, he would have defeated Shunsui long ago when they were clashing swords." This argument simply proves that Stark's injury wasn't hindering to the extent people would like it to be.

Shunsui is so much better than Love and Rose, this is how the story was portrayed. Stark put Love & Rose (mask+shikai) in a losing position, Shunsui (shikai) defeated the same Stark by himself in a color game. Even if Stark wasn't distracted with Love & Rose, there was no way for him to escape first attack of Kageoni technique because he didn't know such a technique existed. Shunsui wasn't remotely impressed with Hitsugaya's devastating HH technique and implied he could easily top that. I would like to see Love & Rose (shikai+mask) against Yamamoto, perhaps it would give a better idea of Shunsui & Ukitake's relative strength after Yamamoto effortlessly fried Love & Rose. (The same Yamamoto, with his bare hands, made short work of WW who defeated bankai Kensei.) Aizen didn't even need to use KS and create an opening to defeat Love & Rose, he simply overpowered them with brute strength.

The bottom line is Rose isn't strong according to captain standards. It seems the vizard captains of 100 years ago (except Shinji who has a good shikai) weren't impressive at all, "All captains are equal" is a seriously wrong notion which was proven to be false multiple times. Byakuya is that much better, he is the strongest ever shinigami of leading noble clan. Rose is just Rose and even the mask (which the vizards, seemingly, can't make effective use of) wouldn't save him. Rose only has a chance if he uses his mask and Byakuya isn't allowed to use kido. (Byakuya's shikai isn't that good, kido would be a great asset since we know that Byakuya makes good use of it in a fight.) Even then I'm not sure about the result.

Truu
December 05, 2010, 06:35 AM
Rose.

He was a captain when Byakuya was just a lolnoob, and the vaizard mask is also a good point.

Takahashi
December 05, 2010, 11:26 AM
Random101, we completely disagree once again. And I honestly don't intend to keep proving you wrong even more. I'm fairly certain that you didn't even read my last post completely, so yeah. It's pointless to keep arguing. If you didn't get it then, you're not going to get it no matter what. You're just going to keep denying everything no matter what. Once you have made up your mind on something, you never change your view no matter what.

You can have the last word if you, I honestly don't have the energy to continue this any longer.

I still believe that Shikai Rose would beat Shikai Byakuya. And if we lift all restrictions and all handicaps from both fighters, then I still think that: Bankai + Mask Rose would rape Bankai Byakuya.

Proving them wrong? Don't act like you've won an argument just because you say you have. This discussion is so completely loaded with unknowns that there's more opinion than canon fact here.

I've also squashed plenty of your points for the record, doesn't mean I can just declare a win for the Byakuya side.

On the bolded part there, I'm pretty sure you and Samurai have given absolutely no leeway over the course of this thread either. There's been plenty of great points that have been brought up that you've ignored as well. Both sides are stubborn, don't say your aren't either.

Jackk
December 05, 2010, 07:26 PM
I didn't really intend to continue, but I changed my mind momentarily. I will address some things.



Trust me, it's best to just assume Shinigami aging doesn't make sense and move on.

Nope, it makes sense as a whole to me. You just want to ignore it because it works against your assumption/opinion that Shunsui and Ukitake have been captains for 2000 years.

There is an aging process that is in fact in place, and we know that it is significantly slower for shinigamis in comparison to humans. That much is fact and we should be able to agree with that. Rukia being about 150 years old based on her outright stating that she has lived almost 10 times as much as Ichigo has lived (Ichigo at that point was 15 years old), is also a fact. I just went from there and obviously used assumptions...which I did label as such, and used the word estimate where appropriate as well. The entire point I was making with all that is that no matter which way you slice it, if we say that Shunsui and Ukitake are at least 2040 years old... then they should be looking much older than they do now. You're giving them way too many years, seriously...


Renji and Rukia were roughly the same size and assumably physical age way back 90-60 years ago, Renji had rapid aging to the point 40 years ago to the point where he looks like he does now, while Rukia's aging was barely noticeable. Gin went from Hitsugaya sized to 'full grown' in 40 or so years, and Hitsugaya's barely aged in roughly the same amount of time. Matsumoto virtually hasn't changed in forty years, etc...

Read this: (in the following spoiler)

Comparing Renji to Rukia makes no sense, sorry. Didn't you know that in general girls physically develop and mature sooner than boys? Not to mention that when Rukia had reached what would be her physical form as an adult, she would still look like that and not age until she actually gets much much older since shinigami aging happens at a much slower rate. And besides, haven't you even seen full grown women in real life who physically look very young and perfectly pass for a much younger person? Really the Renji and Rukia comparison is just bad.

Not everyone grows to be the same size, and not everyone grows at the same rate either! ...Then add to that now that a shinigami also ages at significantly slower rate than humans and yeah... there's still going to be discrepancies between aging and it will be more noticeable on shinigamis because they age at a slower rate. As for Gin and Matsumoto, we actually see flashbacks of Matsumoto looking like a little kid about the same age as Gin when they met. Matsumoto did grow up to be a tall woman, just like Gin grew up to be a tall man...from their little kid selves. (Rukia, she doesn't have to grow up to be a tall woman like Matsumoto. There are women of different sizes, and some who may look younger or older than others. Tall women, short women etc.)

You tried to use Rukia, renji, Gin, and Matsumoto etc. to show that their aging wasn't noticeably exactly the same (even though different people may still have different physical appearances, body size, grow taller sooner or later than others, or even stay short and not grow much etc.), but also... how old are these characters that you're naming? Are they anywhere near more than 2000 years old? No. You would have had a point had those characters been more than 2000 years old and still looking young, but that's not the case. The only character that we know for a fact that is older than 2000 years... is Yamamoto;however, that guy has always looked very old even in every single flashback that we've seen him on... so that only supports my argument all the more.

I'm not stating that they would look like complete vegetables....because it's certainly possible that strong shinigamis such as Yama may just stop aging once they have reached their "old looking state" and they won't be going into a "vegetable state" because they likely actually die before they get to that state. Another logical explanation could be that the aging is even slower for shinigamis once they are already old looking. I didn't exactly mean to compare to exactly what they would be if we used a fixed rate to convert their shinigami age to what it should be in human age. BUT, they should still look much older than they do now...that's my point. We're not talking about Shunsui and Ukitake looking as young as they currently look for just a hundred or even a few hundred years, we're talking about way over 2 thousand years here! The notion that they would look this young after so many thousands of years sounds utterly ridiculous to me. They may not look like vegetables due to Shinigamis aging at a slower rate, but they certainly should have to look much older than they do now... think about it.

2 thousand years is an incredibly huge amount of time.



You asked me a while ago why I assume you didn't look up any other sources. This is why, that page, translated by Mangastream, was wrong.

The gist of what they did was this: They mixed up the numbers in question. What he actually says is that he was the Captain Commander of the Gotei 10-3, which was then reversed to the 3-10 captain commander. There was a discussion on this a while ago.

Read this: (inside the following spoiler)

I'm not going to lie, last time I did look at two translations and knew that the one I linked to you was accurate...everything I said then was true (I'm talking about the other thread where I proved to you that it was not outright stated anywhere that Ichigo's Mask had it's old limit back);however, this time I admit that I just used the translation that bleachexile had without looking at others and simply linked that. You're right, the translation that said Yama was the 30th captain commander was not accurate. I admit that I made a mistake.

Still, you know what? The point I was making with that section of my other post... where Yama has only been the captain commander for the past 1000 years, and that there were other captain commanders before Yama... still stands, and stands firmly.

The other and more accurate translations that I have now checked still firmly state that Yama has lead the Gotei 13 for the past 1000 years. With that, and the fact Soul society is extremely old and it obviously did not start with Yama....particularly because he has only been the captain commander for the past 1000 years, it should be safe to assume that there were really more captain commanders before him. The only thing that changed is that we don't know exactly how many captain commanders there were before Yama, but for all we know...it could be even more than 30, or less than 30.. who knows. Yama was not the first Captain commander though, only the captain commander of the past 1000 years.

http://eatmanga.com/index.php/Manga-Scan/Bleach/Bleach-394/006.jpg?action=big&size=original

Cnet's translation, where it states that Yama has been the captain commander for the past 1000 years (in case you still think that he's been the commander for more than 1000 years...): http://mangahelpers.com/t/cnet128/releases/20433

Nevertheless, it's not just an assumption that there were more captain commanders before Yama. Remember that it was also stated that Yama is the only one that knows of the location of the Ouken (the key to the royal dimension), which is why Aizen had to search for a way to make his own Royal key since Yama was not going to hand him the original nor tell him where it is hidden. Yama also said that the location of the royal key is passed by through successive generations of the gotei 13's commander via oral tradition.

Relevant manga page:
http://eatmanga.com/index.php/Manga-Scan/Bleach/Bleach-223/008.jpg?action=big&size=original

And I looked for the Cnet translation that I had seen a while ago too, but I was unable to find it for further sources...in case you still refuse to believe in this (even though it's very obvious that that Scanlation above is the correct one, due to the fact that only Yama currently knows where the Ouken is);however, I was still able to find this one too: http://mangahelpers.com/t/djudge/releases/2967

This clearly makes it fact that there were more generations of captain commanders, no? Which should have been obvious from the fact the Yama has only been the captain commander for the past 1000 years anyway. There were more before him.



This is indeed correct, they'd have to be it for at least that long. But what you're arguing that they had to be it for only that long doesn't fly, and the discussion you're attempting to use in defense of it, ESPECIALLY Shinigami aging don't work they way you think they do.

Read this: (inside the following spoiler)

You're claiming that they have been captains for 2 thousand years, and therefore also much older than 2 thousand years;however, that's not true. That is not stated anywhere in the manga...go back and ready my other post again. You're just assuming and giving your own opinion, nothing more.

The argument that I used with my own assumptions make more sense to me, as I already explained. A time span of more than 2100+ years is an extremely long time. You have no way of proving that your assumption is correct either. Furthermore, the aging thing is NOT the only thing that I brought up as an argument or explanation for why them being captains for 2000 years would make no sense to me. I had at least two other in depth points besides their aging. They're still there in my other post, you just ignored them apparently... since you only quoted a few lines here and there.

Just stop claiming things as facts, when they are really not facts. If you're going to present an assumption, then I can present mine.. and then we're just arguing against opinions. And arguing against opinions like that will be pointless, no? ...You somehow believe that it makes sense for Shunsui and Ukitake to look this young after living for way over more than 2 thousand years, and I think that that is simply ridiculous.

We agree that they have been captains for at least 200 years, because that is an actual fact from the manga, which I already proved to you. Shouldn't we just leave it at that? I'm willing to leave it at that. Wouldn't that be a reasonable resolution?

Or are you still going to insist on claiming your opinion as fact, no matter what?



Proving them wrong? Don't act like you've won an argument just because you say you have. This discussion is so completely loaded with unknowns that there's more opinion than canon fact here.

No offense, but what are you talking about? When I talked about proving Random101 wrong, I was referring to other points more in specific, and I'm not talking about this thread alone. You probably still don't know what I'm talking about, but that's fine. I was not replying to you, when I said the thing that you quoted from me. Don't worry about it man.

For the record though, I was not talking about proving for a fact that Rose is better than Byakuya. That is simply my opinion, which I labeled as such from the very beginning.



I've also squashed plenty of your points for the record, doesn't mean I can just declare a win for the Byakuya side.

No, you have not squashed any of my points. Don't act like you've won an argument just because you say you have.

You can declare Byakuya as a winner basing it on your own opinion, I respect that actually. And I can declare Rose the winner based on my own opinion. Did you guys not read when I stated that I didn't want to come here to argue against opinions? Granted I eventually did, but only because you guys started arguing against mines.

In the first post that I made in this thread, I stated this:

"A lot of the things that you guys have said in your posts have been opinions. Granted so have a lot of the things that I stated in this post.... so I'm not going to argue against opinions; it would be pointless."

And here is the post if you want to see for yourself that it's there (and notice that the last edit was on Thursday December 2): http://mangahelpers.com/forum/showpost.php?p=2201812&postcount=27

My initial intention was to come in and give my opinion about this fight (which I did), that was all. I only corrected Ninjabot when he claimed that Stark's wolves were Ceros, which they were not. Then you guys started arguing against the things that I stated in my posts, and well... you know the rest already.


On the bolded part there, I'm pretty sure you and Samurai have given absolutely no leeway over the course of this thread either. There's been plenty of great points that have been brought up that you've ignored as well. Both sides are stubborn, don't say your aren't either.

I have not ignored any points.

Now that I think about it, I think there was only one post you made replying to me that I just read, disagreed with it, and simply forgot to reply to it, even though I actually intended to reply.

Bottom line is: Your opinion is that Byakuya is just better than Rose, thus Byakuya will be the winner. I don't agree with it at all, but that's fine. You can have your opinion and so can I.

I still think that Rose is in a higher level than Byakuya, and I gave several reasons to support my opinion. (more experienced, has trained more, held his own against espada #1 along with Love, has hollowfication to boost him, has Bankai and Bankai + Mask that he still hasn't even needed to use yet)

Therefore, I believe that Rose will win this fight, specially now that the rules of this match have changed to only Shikai Rose Vs Shikai Byakuya.

And I think that Rose has a more versatile and more powerful shikai than Byakuya. Therefore, Rose should be able to handle this, in my opinion.

El Samurai Guapo
December 05, 2010, 09:31 PM
For the record, I just said "If Stark's injury was as serious as some people make it out to be, he wouldn't have been able to touch Shunsui at all in the color game. And if Stark was so much stronger than Shunsui that he could land a good hit on Shunsui in the color game with a grave (!) injury, he would have defeated Shunsui long ago when they were clashing swords." This argument simply proves that Stark's injury wasn't hindering to the extent people would like it to be.

No, it doesn't even come close to proving anything. In fact it's one of the weakest arguments I've ever read. Neither Starrk nor Shunsui were fighting seriously when they were sealed. Both were holding back and they both made note of this. Even if Starrk did want to go all out and wtfpwn Shunsui, it wouldn't have worked while he was sealed. Unlike a shinigami going from sealed -> shikai, when an arrancar uses his/her resurreccion they gain a huge overall stat boost, along with a slew of new abilities. A shinigami releasing his/her shikai is just a weapon change with (in most cases) some latent effects. Even when Starrk was released though, the only instance where we truly saw he was resolved to win was after Lilynette talked some sense into him and he brought out his trump card: the wolves.

Starrk still being able to keep up with Shunsui and land a hit on him, despite bleeding profusely, just shows how much faster, skilled, and capable Starrk was over Shunsui even while injured. He didn't require a distraction to speedblitz him and slash his back either. Shunsui on the other hand, never landed one hit that wasn't accompanied by a distraction. Even the slash on the forearm technically wasn't fair IMO cause Starrk was in pain and clutching his bleeding chest.


Stark put Love & Rose (mask+shikai) in a losing position,

No, he put them in a position where one of them likely had to use his bankai. Only difference is it took the spirit wolves to get Love and Rose to that phase, while all it took was cero metralleta to get Shunsui ready to use his bankai.


Shunsui (shikai) defeated the same Stark by himself in a color game. Even if Stark wasn't distracted with Love & Rose, there was no way for him to escape first attack of Kageoni technique because he didn't know such a technique existed.

Well I beg to differ. I think the attack is dodgleable for someone like Starrk who easily dodged Juushirou's reflected and timing-altered ceros, and Shunsui's sneak attack. At the very least he could have probably avoided a stab through the torso. In the first place Shunsui would have never had a chance to pull it off. He was having a hard enough time running away from cero metralleta, and would have been hit had it not been for Juushirou. Even less would he have been able to pull it off with 50 wolves biting at him.


Shunsui wasn't remotely impressed with Hitsugaya's devastating HH technique and implied he could easily top that.

Lol, ok. Your point? I don't think Love and Rose would have been very impressed either. Love leveled a large portion of FKT with a shikai attack, I'm sure he could top HH in bankai too.


I would like to see Love & Rose (shikai+mask) against Yamamoto, perhaps it would give a better idea of Shunsui & Ukitake's relative strength after Yamamoto effortlessly fried Love & Rose.

I'd like to see the Shunsui and Juushirou survive a Yamamoto that was trying to kill them as well. Shunsui and Juushirou were the only ones that Yamamoto yelled for out of concern (http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-chapter-377-page-11.html) in FKT. He loves the two of them like sons, there's no way he was really trying to make s'mores out of them.


Aizen didn't even need to use KS and create an opening to defeat Love & Rose, he simply overpowered them with brute strength.
That's never 100% for certain when it comes to Aizen. And this was also after Love and Rose had been hit multiple times with the primera espada's ultimate move. I don't think they could have even brought their masks out at that point. Aizen also overpowered Komamura who is probably the heaviest hitter in the Gotei 13. He also LOLNO'd multiple sneak attack attempts from Shunsui, no doubt he could have overpowered him at any moment as well.


The bottom line is Rose isn't strong according to captain standards. It seems the vizard captains of 100 years ago (except Shinji who has a good shikai) weren't impressive at all, "All captains are equal" is a seriously wrong notion which was proven to be false multiple times. Byakuya is that much better, he is the strongest ever shinigami of leading noble clan. Rose is just Rose and even the mask (which the vizards, seemingly, can't make effective use of) wouldn't save him. Rose only has a chance if he uses his mask and Byakuya isn't allowed to use kido. (Byakuya's shikai isn't that good, kido would be a great asset since we know that Byakuya makes good use of it in a fight.) Even then I'm not sure about the result.

I've never said all captains are equal, I've said they're all in the same ballpark. If you can't tell the difference then I don't know what to tell you. Rose may not have had a chance to prove he's as strong as I personally believe he is, but there is certainly no reason to believe he's sub-par by captains standards either. He lost to Aizen, and was unable to fight against the primera espada's ultimate move with his shikai. We all know Byakuya with his bankai wouldn't have done any better in either of the above situations; so no, Byakuya is not "that much better." Hell, I'd have a hard time seeing Byakuya defeat a privaron like Dordonii with his crappy shikai. Definitely not the level of Love, who with his shikai easily forced the released primera to use his ultimate move. Yes, that was Love, but I think Rose and Love are pretty much equals. And being a noble doesn't mean !@#$.

Random101
December 05, 2010, 10:18 PM
You just want to ignore it because it works against your assumption/opinion that Shunsui and Ukitake have been captains for 2000 years.
No, I want to ignore it because there's literally no consistency anywhere. Shinigami do age, it's just at a completely random rate that varies with the individual no less. The gist of my point was the assumption you made previously, the 10x's rate, simply doesn't work because there are a lot of in canon examples that go directly against it. Arguing age based on physical appearance with shinigami just does not fly, at all.


There is an aging process that is in fact in place, and we know that it is significantly slower for shinigamis in comparison to humans. That much is fact and we should be able to agree with that. Rukia being about 150 years old based on her outright stating that she has lived almost 10 times as much as Ichigo has lived (Ichigo at that point was 15 years old), is also a fact.
This much is indeed true.


The entire point I was making with all that is that no matter which way you slice it, if we say that Shunsui and Ukitake are at least 2040 years old... then they should be looking much older than they do now. You're giving them way too many years, seriously...
This however is not. You'd have a point were there a consistent aging process with which to go by. AS IT STANDS however, there is none. People can randomly age despite huge passages of time either severely, ie: Gin in 60 years, or not at all, ie: Rukia in 60 or indeed Hiyori in 100. There is literally no rhyme or reason that can be argued for this no matter how you slice it, it's just that inconsistent.

And mind you I'm pulling the examples that we know haven't changed at all in huge amounts of time due to physical youngness, which is the point in which the changes would, logically, be most drastic. Hiyori, being a case I neglected in my last post is probably the prime example by which to go by. A spirtual can literally not age past a point in the 12-14 range, depending how you slice it at all for 100 years. Yet another aged in the ballpark 10 years in half that amount of time.

By extension it's rather easy to argue that in 2000 years a shinigami could either age massively, like people like Gin, or barely at all in the comparison with the amount of time that passed, like people like Rukia and Hiyori. If Hiyori aged about half a year in that amount of time for example (Which is a reasonable amount of time for someone who looks exactly the same), multiplying that number by twenty would be a range of 10 years for someone who ages at a similar rate.

Which is conveniently 2000 years. You see what I'm getting at here? Arguing age has literally no use because the age itself is so incredibly inconsistent from the start. Arguing who could possibly be how old simply doesn't fly without knowing their specific rate of aging, which we KNOW is so wildly inconsistent, as well as whether or not factors like character models factor in as well in cases for the 20-40 range, in which a person rarely changes much beyond superfluous things like hair style and basic grooming.

Which is again why I'm specifically pointing at those with a younger range for my examples, as it's FAR easier to tell for them by how much they've grown an estimate of how much time passed.


Comparing Renji to Rukia makes no sense, sorry. Didn't you know that in general girls physically develop and mature sooner than boys?
Yes I do. You miss the point entirely. It's indeed true that boys tend to develop sooner than girls. Growing however that much when the other is not changing at all does not fly if their rate of growth is the same. Keep in mind this isn't the only example either, people like Renji, Gin, Byakuya, and Soifon (Somewhat, admittedly she doesn't look like she hit 20 yet) have a rather quick rate of growth, while people like Rukia, Hitsugaya, Hinamori, Hiyori, and Kira barely changed at all in huge incriments of time.

Actually Renji switched somewhere down the line, he had an absolutely massive spurt at some point that put him miles ahead of Rukia in a relatively short range of time, then plain stopped sometime forty years ago. Well, unless that was a character model thing too, but Renji seems a tad young to have hit the 20 mark yet, though admittedly I may be taking his mental maturity too far into account.


Not everyone grows to be the same size, and not everyone grows at the same rate either!
Indeed they do not. However you know what they don't do? Out and out stop completely at such a young physical age while others are growing leaps and bounds around them. This is again why I'm specifically singling out those we've seen at a far younger age at some point in time, because they're the easiest to argue clear cut discrepancies in, because the rate of growth is VERY noticeable at that point over similar periods of time.


Are they anywhere near more than 2000 years old? No. You would have had a point had those characters been more than 2000 years old and still looking young, but that's not the case.
*Facepalm*

I'm singling out these people because the rate of aging when you're younger over similar periods of time is very noticable.

I could pull in crap like Unohana literally not changing physically for 100 years, along with Yamamoto, Kyoraku, Ukitake, Yoruichi, Urahara, Tessai, the Vizards, etc to suggest that their aging outright stops altogether... But that's a moot point, because of two things: Character models for an older crowd tend to not change much overall due to the fact that people in general tend to not age noticeably, and let's be honest Kubo really has been that lazy lately so that it might not have been a style thing and him just not wanting to think up something new that we'd still recognize beyond superflous style changes.

I specifically point out the 'kids' so to speak because you cannot possibly argue away their lack of changes from aging, or the reversed extreme amount of aging to adulthood in similar amounts of time. Hiyori of course being the shining example.

And seriously did you just argue Rukia is an adult woman? I can get short woman, or less stacked woman, but arguing her as a physical adult? Really? Beyond some kind of sever physical disorder, which I'd assume we'd have at least heard about by now, not remotely flying in the slightest.


BUT, they should still look much older than they do now...that's my point.
They should, were the rate of change consistent and indeed at a fixed rate more or less for each and every one of them. When we have people who would show drastic changes over a simple year of physical growth not changing for 100 years, and others changing drastically over a period of 60 years however, and your entire arguement flies out the window.

Here's another possible interpretation. Rather than stopping at an age when they are really old as you so eloquently put it, shinigami aging experinces a quick 'burst' relatively speaking over a certain period of time after their death and then just outright 'stops' or at least halts to a virtual snails pace. This would help explain a lot of things, Rukia's rapid growth from a wee baby in the amount of time prior to attending the academy for someone only 150 years old, Gin's rapid growth and sudden stopping, and indeed everyone who appears to have outright stopped for such huge stretches of time would fall into place nicely. Yamamoto of course being explained away as he just died when he was at least middle aged ages ago to say the least.

Granted this is not valid, and still has many, many kinks in it that cannot be explained (Rukia being key as she had a huge amount of time to get that old physically and other than point of death there's really no way to argue some kind of arbitrary stopping point), but it's an equal interpretation to yours. There are countless others that could easily fit in in place of those for a possible explaination, all with kinks in them that don't fly because the aging thing is THAT DAMN INCONSISTENT.

The basic jist of my point is this: You're arguing it to be fact that if they had been around for 2000 years they would look really old. However in canon the aging is so inconsistent and varied and has so many holes in it that arguing ANYTHING about it has to be ANYTHING does not fly. Remotely.

You may indeed argue that you feel they should look older, that's valid at least and I can certainly see where such a thing comes from. However arguing it SHOULD be that way requires information about the aging that we simply do not have. Especially with people at extremely young physical ages, ie: Hitsugaya, Rukia and Hiyori outright stopping for huge periods of time in which others go from kiddie sized to adulthood, ie: Gin, Matsumoto, Byakuya, etc...

@ The other captain commanders and your use of a mistranslated line, there's a reason I specifically stated after that that it virtually doesn't change your point dude. It's hard to pass down something like the location of an all powerful key to the Royal realm without more than on CC. I firmly agree with that point at least.

Takahashi
December 06, 2010, 12:41 AM
No offense, but what are you talking about? When I talked about proving Random101 wrong, I was referring to other points more in specific, and I'm not talking about this thread alone. You probably still don't know what I'm talking about, but that's fine. I was not replying to you, when I said the thing that you quoted from me. Don't worry about it man.

I must have misunderstood, I though you were talking about continuously proving them wrong throughout the thread (meaning the actual discussion, because I haven't been paying attention to this timeline you guys care about for some reason.)


No, you have not squashed any of my points. Don't act like you've won an argument just because you say you have.

Well your biggest one seemed to be the Hollow Ichigo fight, I thought I'd stumped you considering the reply you followed it with. I didn't think I won because I thought I did, it's because your reply was:


The Rose Vs hollow Ichigo fight wasn't the only argument that I used to support my reasoning for Rose being significantly strong though.

Judging by that response, it made it sound like you gave up on that point, perhaps I'm just being arrogant, not in the best mood this week, sorry if I've been a dick.


You can declare Byakuya as a winner basing it on your own opinion, I respect that actually. And I can declare Rose the winner based on my own opinion. Did you guys not read when I stated that I didn't want to come here to argue against opinions? Granted I eventually did, but only because you guys started arguing against mines.

My initial intention was to come in and give my opinion about this fight (which I did), that was all. I only corrected Ninjabot when he claimed that Stark's wolves were Ceros, which they were not. Then you guys started arguing against the things that I stated in my posts, and well... you know the rest already.

Sure it's all opinion. The problem I have though is that, opinion or not, there should be SOME substantial evidence to justify an opinion, and honestly I don't see it. Again, I like Rose, he's second only to Shinji Vaizard wise, but a lack of info means people can generally overestimate and underestimate a character. Some people think he's trash, others think he's top tier, and I don't think either are true.




I have not ignored any points.

Now that I think about it, I think there was only one post you made replying to me that I just read, disagreed with it, and simply forgot to reply to it, even though I actually intended to reply.

I wasn't talking about me actually. I think the best points were made by Ninjabot, and they seemed to be discarded. The fact that the TC decided to actually change the rules many pages in makes me think they didn't have a rebuttal. For the most part, I've just been kinda piggybacking and agreeing with people, I don't think I've brought a whole lot of new info to the table.


Bottom line is: Your opinion is that Byakuya is just better than Rose, thus Byakuya will be the winner. I don't agree with it at all, but that's fine. You can have your opinion and so can I.

Yup. Although it's not that I think your opinion can't be right, I just think it's.......Well, not unfounded......what's a less absolute word for that? Lowevidencefounded?:darn



I still think that Rose is in a higher level than Byakuya, and I gave several reasons to support my opinion. (more experienced, has trained more, held his own against espada #1 along with Love, has hollowfication to boost him, has Bankai and Bankai + Mask that he still hasn't even needed to use yet)

Therefore, I believe that Rose will win this fight, specially now that the rules of this match have changed to only Shikai Rose Vs Shikai Byakuya.

And I think that Rose has a more versatile and more powerful shikai than Byakuya. Therefore, Rose should be able to handle this, in my opinion.

Well, experience is questionable, we don't know how much action Rose has seen, he's likely trained more due to his age, but we can't really say that he's been in more real fights necessarily (although I'll give ya that it's likely). I'm also not sure about how Espada #1 counts for so much because Byakuya never got a chance to fight him. And with Bankai, like I said before, it's a plot reason. The same reason that Yoroichi, Urahara, and Isshin didn't go Bankai against Aizen, if there's anyone to pull out everything to kill, it's him, they didn't because they needed to lose for the story.

I don't think Rose's Shikai is more versatile, but I'd agree that it's likely much more powerful. Since this topic has become just Shikai and no Kido, I'd say Byakuya only marginally winning more often.

Gran Maestro
December 06, 2010, 06:59 AM
No, it doesn't even come close to proving anything. In fact it's one of the weakest arguments I've ever read. Neither Starrk nor Shunsui were fighting seriously when they were sealed. Both were holding back and they both made note of this.

You don't have the luxury to hold back if your opponent is much superior.


Even if Starrk did want to go all out and wtfpwn Shunsui, it wouldn't have worked while he was sealed. Unlike a shinigami going from sealed -> shikai, when an arrancar uses his/her resurreccion they gain a huge overall stat boost, along with a slew of new abilities. A shinigami releasing his/her shikai is just a weapon change with (in most cases) some latent effects. Even when Starrk was released though, the only instance where we truly saw he was resolved to win was after Lilynette talked some sense into him and he brought out his trump card: the wolves.

Resurreccion vs shikai is a complicated subject, I must say I don't agree with your assessment. The resurreccions of strong arrancars did certainly have impressive abilities but it is also true for shikai of strong shinigami. Yamamato's can destroy everything in sight, Aizen's can make people see whatever he wants, Shunsui's can force you to obey his rules, Shinji's can reverse your vision, Soifon's can two-hit kill you, etc.

Since you underestimate sealed Stark, let's see if you actually have a point by analyzing other arrancar fights in FKT: Sealed Barragan overwhelmed Soifon, sealed Harribel forced Hitsugaya to go bankai, sealed Poww defeated Ikkaku, sealed fraccions (Charlotte, Avirama, Findor, Nirgge) had the upper hand against sealed VCs but they lost to their shikai. According to this pattern, an arrancar has better chances of defeating his shinigami counterpart if they are both sealed.

Shunsui was able to hold his own against Stark when they were both sealed, Stark was NOT much superior to Shunsui as you suggest. The evidence of my weak (!) argument is actually pretty solid. And Stark was dead serious after he released, he was trying to force Shunsui to go bankai (http://mangable.com/bleach/chapter-361/12/).


Starrk still being able to keep up with Shunsui and land a hit on him, despite bleeding profusely, just shows how much faster, skilled, and capable Starrk was over Shunsui even while injured.

As I said, if Stark was seriously injured, he couldn't touch Shunsui. If Stark was so much faster, skilled and capable, Shunsui would have been long defeated. Even Stark gave more credit to Shunsui than you do, Shunsui was able to keep up with Stark but you talk as if Stark was totally humiliating Shunsui.


He didn't require a distraction to speedblitz him and slash his back either. Shunsui on the other hand, never landed one hit that wasn't accompanied by a distraction. Even the slash on the forearm technically wasn't fair IMO cause Starrk was in pain and clutching his bleeding chest.

And when did Stark land a good hit on Shunsui? 1) When Shunsui was distracted with WW 2) When Stark was supposedly gravely injured. Does it make sense that Stark failed to hit Shunsui when he was in perfect shape but managed to do so when he was half-dead? The simple explanation is "Stark wasn't half-dead", this is Bleach world, losing lots of blood isn't a life-threatening situation.


No, he put them in a position where one of them likely had to use his bankai. Only difference is it took the spirit wolves to get Love and Rose to that phase, while all it took was cero metralleta to get Shunsui ready to use his bankai.

Love had a huge shikai which was blocking Stark's cero attacks and Shunsui was about to use bankai because, as stated many times, his sword was not in the mood. If Shunsui's sword had been in the mood from the get-go, he wouldn't have been forced to go bankai. In a fight excluding bankais, Love & Rose were losing, Shunsui had a pretty good chance of winning (if his sword was in the mood).


Well I beg to differ. I think the attack is dodgleable for someone like Starrk who easily dodged Juushirou's reflected and timing-altered ceros, and Shunsui's sneak attack. At the very least he could have probably avoided a stab through the torso. In the first place Shunsui would have never had a chance to pull it off. He was having a hard enough time running away from cero metralleta, and would have been hit had it not been for Juushirou. Even less would he have been able to pull it off with 50 wolves biting at him.

IMO nobody can see an attack coming from their own shadow. If they don't know the technique, they get hit. Random101 pointed out that the color game, with a safe color, turns Shunsui into a incorporeal spirit. If that's the case, wolves can't bite him at all. Kageoni can also be used to transfer Shunsui to a safe zone. Shunsui actually did a favor to Stark by telling him the rules, he could have stayed silent and Stark would have got defeated before realizing what was going on. IMO Shunsui's shikai is much more powerful than you think.


Lol, ok. Your point? I don't think Love and Rose would have been very impressed either. Love leveled a large portion of FKT with a shikai attack, I'm sure he could top HH in bankai too.

Love's shikai attack wasn't that impressive, it didn't hurt Stark at all and I don't think "a large portion of FKT" is the right phrase. We'll see their bankai in the future but if I were you, I wouldn't hold my hopes up if you are expecting techniques that dwarf HH.


I'd like to see the Shunsui and Juushirou survive a Yamamoto that was trying to kill them as well. Shunsui and Juushirou were the only ones that Yamamoto yelled for out of concern (http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-chapter-377-page-11.html) in FKT. He loves the two of them like sons, there's no way he was really trying to make s'mores out of them.

I agree that Yamamoto wasn't going for the kill but still Kubo made a point by letting them put up a fight, however hopeless it was.


That's never 100% for certain when it comes to Aizen. And this was also after Love and Rose had been hit multiple times with the primera espada's ultimate move. I don't think they could have even brought their masks out at that point. Aizen also overpowered Komamura who is probably the heaviest hitter in the Gotei 13. He also LOLNO'd multiple sneak attack attempts from Shunsui, no doubt he could have overpowered him at any moment as well.

Actually I think that Love & Rose were in very bad shape when they fought Aizen but when I tried to argue that in "Stark vs Love" thread, people strongly disagreed and said the wolves didn't do any serious damage at all. If that's the case, the way Love & Rose got defeated is humiliating. And dodging sneak attacks from someone doesn't mean you are superior to that person, it just means you are on alert against that person. I don't think Aizen could have overpowered Shunsui in the same way he overpowered Love & Rose and no such thing did happen in the manga. Aizen's performance against Isshin proved that he wasn't overwhelmingly strong in this category, Aizen's strong suit was to play tricks on people by using KS but he didn't need his strong suit to defeat Love & Rose. I don't see how Aizen could get help from KS to catch Rose's whip and cut him, KS is irrelevant in this case.


I've never said all captains are equal, I've said they're all in the same ballpark. If you can't tell the difference then I don't know what to tell you.

Don't you say they all are in the same tier? Otherwise, I honestly don't know what you're talking about.


Rose may not have had a chance to prove he's as strong as I personally believe he is, but there is certainly no reason to believe he's sub-par by captains standards either. He lost to Aizen, and was unable to fight against the primera espada's ultimate move with his shikai. We all know Byakuya with his bankai wouldn't have done any better in either of the above situations; so no, Byakuya is not "that much better." Hell, I'd have a hard time seeing Byakuya defeat a privaron like Dordonii with his crappy shikai. Definitely not the level of Love, who with his shikai easily forced the released primera to use his ultimate move. Yes, that was Love, but I think Rose and Love are pretty much equals. And being a noble doesn't mean !@#$.

Love forced Stark to use wolves because he has a huge club which blocks cero. It wasn't a feat of strength, it just happened that he had the perfect counter against Stark's cero guns. I agree that Rose is on par with Love but I don't agree that Love's situational feats can be used to support Rose.

In Bleach (and in many other manga) being noble means you are better than other people. (on average) Being the strongest ever shinigami of the clan actually means something, I don't think Kubo pointed it out for the lulz. His shikai isn't impressive but his kido and shunpo skills more than make up for it.

Don't worry, if Love and Rose prove their worth, I'll be the first person to give credit to them. I just go by what I've seen until now.

Primecut
December 06, 2010, 06:59 PM
Who wins with power scaling? Because Rose barely has any feats so it is unfair to say Byakuya wins. And let's drop the idea that Rose lost to Stark...he was still ready to go and release his bankai. Plus Rose knows some insane kidou because Love kept accusing him of using magic so he must be good at it.

Random101
December 06, 2010, 09:15 PM
Actually he was saying his techniques looked more like magic than the wolves. Granted it's hard to judge Rose's skill with Kido (I think he might have used one on Kensei but I can't be sure), but Byakuya's probably the only person who actually uses those consistently anyway, bar the masters ala Tessai and Hachi, though granted they're exempt here.

exacta
December 07, 2010, 01:20 AM
Another thing is, when youruichi did it, she covered the entire blade so the blade couldn't separate, a whip can't do that because there will still be openings. Against renji, byakuya didn't release b/c then he has no defense against the sword that was right in front of him. Also in both those cases, byakya was standing still and underestimating his opponent

When doesn't Byakuya underestimate his opponent?? Byakuya's badass, but he's incredibly arrogant. He's lucky Zommari didn't go for his head right from the start. And Ichigo could've slit his throat immediatley after going Bankai. Plus, whenever he fights an opponent(except Renji, who always gets owned pretty much) he always ends up coming out a bloody mess. Byakuya's overcondfidence always ends up letting his opponent get a good few hits in, as long as they're somewhere in his league at the very least.
[hr]


Shunsui is so much better than Love and Rose, this is how the story was portrayed. Stark put Love & Rose (mask+shikai) in a losing position, Shunsui (shikai) defeated the same Stark by himself in a color game. Even if Stark wasn't distracted with Love & Rose, there was no way for him to escape first attack of Kageoni technique because he didn't know such a technique existed. Shunsui wasn't remotely impressed with Hitsugaya's devastating HH technique and implied he could easily top that. I would like to see Love & Rose (shikai+mask) against Yamamoto, perhaps it would give a better idea of Shunsui & Ukitake's relative strength after Yamamoto effortlessly fried Love & Rose. (The same Yamamoto, with his bare hands, made short work of WW who defeated bankai Kensei.) Aizen didn't even need to use KS and create an opening to defeat Love & Rose, he simply overpowered them with brute strength.

The bottom line is Rose isn't strong according to captain standards. It seems the vizard captains of 100 years ago (except Shinji who has a good shikai) weren't impressive at all, "All captains are equal" is a seriously wrong notion which was proven to be false multiple times. Byakuya is that much better, he is the strongest ever shinigami of leading noble clan. Rose is just Rose and even the mask (which the vizards, seemingly, can't make effective use of) wouldn't save him. Rose only has a chance if he uses his mask and Byakuya isn't allowed to use kido. (Byakuya's shikai isn't that good, kido would be a great asset since we know that Byakuya makes good use of it in a fight.) Even then I'm not sure about the result.


Love and Rose indeed enabled Shunsui to use Kageoni. If they hadn't pushed him to use the wolves, he wouldn'tve assumed his fight was over and decided to land on the ground, thus stepping on his shadow. Shunsui fight's dirty, and Stark wasn't even fully paying attention for the Iro Oni part of that fight. No one ever got a straight up hit on Stark that indicated them having more skill in straightforward combat. We've seen soooooo little from Love and Rose, and to think that ex captains are nothing compared to current ones(some of which are less experienced) is ridiculous and kind of biased. It wouldn't make sense for the Vizards to be weak.

Gran Maestro
December 07, 2010, 05:14 AM
Love and Rose indeed enabled Shunsui to use Kageoni. If they hadn't pushed him to use the wolves, he wouldn'tve assumed his fight was over and decided to land on the ground, thus stepping on his shadow. Shunsui fight's dirty, and Stark wasn't even fully paying attention for the Iro Oni part of that fight. No one ever got a straight up hit on Stark that indicated them having more skill in straightforward combat. We've seen soooooo little from Love and Rose, and to think that ex captains are nothing compared to current ones(some of which are less experienced) is ridiculous and kind of biased. It wouldn't make sense for the Vizards to be weak.

I agree that FKT is not the best area to use Kageoni but I believe Shunsui could figure out a way to make Stark land on the ground. I don't agree with your opinion that Stark wasn't paying attention but I'll leave it at that. (If you want to learn why, send a PM or make a post in relevant thread and I'll explain in full detail.) I agree Shunsui fights dirty, is it a sign of lack of strength? Aizen fought dirty in a grand scale, he used an injured girl lying on the ground to tick his opponents off, so?

I don't say former captains are nothing compared to current ones. In every generation, there are upper, middle and lower tier captains. This is strictly my opinion but Love & Rose seemed to be in the lower class of "captains of previous generation". They can defeat the lower class of new generation, for example Rose (in shikai) would probably defeat Tousen (in shikai). Likewise Love (in shikai) can defeat Komamura (in shikai). If Rose could hold his mask indefinitely, he would have a good shot at defeating middle-tier captains (like Byakuya, Kenpachi, Gin, Yoruichi, etc.) We can't say that Rose is stronger than Byakuya just because Rose was a captain 50-60 years earlier than Byakuya, their personal limits may be different and I have reason to believe Byakuya has a higher limit and faster learning rate. It happens, Kenpachi defeated fellow captain of the vizards (his ex-captain), didn't he?

exacta
December 07, 2010, 10:07 AM
I agree that FKT is not the best area to use Kageoni but I believe Shunsui could figure out a way to make Stark land on the ground. I don't agree with your opinion that Stark wasn't paying attention but I'll leave it at that. (If you want to learn why, send a PM or make a post in relevant thread and I'll explain in full detail.) I agree Shunsui fights dirty, is it a sign of lack of strength? Aizen fought dirty in a grand scale, he used an injured girl lying on the ground to tick his opponents off, so?

I don't say former captains are nothing compared to current ones. In every generation, there are upper, middle and lower tier captains. This is strictly my opinion but Love & Rose seemed to be in the lower class of "captains of previous generation". They can defeat the lower class of new generation, for example Rose (in shikai) would probably defeat Tousen (in shikai). Likewise Love (in shikai) can defeat Komamura (in shikai). If Rose could hold his mask indefinitely, he would have a good shot at defeating middle-tier captains (like Byakuya, Kenpachi, Gin, Yoruichi, etc.) We can't say that Rose is stronger than Byakuya just because Rose was a captain 50-60 years earlier than Byakuya, their personal limits may be different and I have reason to believe Byakuya has a higher limit and faster learning rate. It happens, Kenpachi defeated fellow captain of the vizards (his ex-captain), didn't he?

It's not a sign of a lack of strength at all. However, it doesn't show any superiority in terms of strength either, it only shows cunning and strategy. If I sneak up on someone and knock them out with a blow to the back of the head that doesn't mean I'm better than them in a direct fight.I'm not really sure what you could say to convince me Stark was paying attention, since in the manga he was having flashback moments and thinking about loneliness instead of thinking about his battle with Shunsui, and Lilynette even commented on Stark sucking when Love smacked him.

And Yoruichi middle-tier????Really??? She pwned Soifon without even using her zanpakuto, and outran Byakuya.

Kenpachi has always been an exception to what to expect from a captain, he doesn't even know his zanpakuto's name. We also have no idea how long Kenpachi was around or how old he was in comparison to the previous one that he slaughtered.

And we've seen so little from Rose to even determine what his learning rate is or what his limits are. It's also ridiculous to think Shunsui is stronger than both Love and Rose combined with their masks on.

Gran Maestro
December 07, 2010, 11:37 AM
It's not a sign of a lack of strength at all. However, it doesn't show any superiority in terms of strength either, it only shows cunning and strategy. If I sneak up on someone and knock them out with a blow to the back of the head that doesn't mean I'm better than them in a direct fight.I'm not really sure what you could say to convince me Stark was paying attention, since in the manga he was having flashback moments and thinking about loneliness instead of thinking about his battle with Shunsui, and Lilynette even commented on Stark sucking when Love smacked him.

I won't try to convince you, people rarely get convinced about something after they made up their minds, I'll just tell you my point of view. I'll send you a PM because I don't want to keep posting about an off-topic subject.


And Yoruichi middle-tier????Really??? She pwned Soifon without even using her zanpakuto, and outran Byakuya.

Did Yoruichi actually own Soifon until Soifon decided to show off with his incomplete shunko? And I hope Soifon fans don't get angry but IMO Soifon is closer to lower-tier than mid-tier. Focusing on speed and ignoring everything else is not an acceptable way to compare people, for example Byakuya is much faster than Kenpachi but, all things considered, I think they're on par with each other. Kubo decided to give Zommari, the fastest espada, the rank of #7 (not #1), "faster" doesn't mean "stronger" in Bleach.


Kenpachi has always been an exception to what to expect from a captain, he doesn't even know his zanpakuto's name. We also have no idea how long Kenpachi was around or how old he was in comparison to the previous one that he slaughtered.

Byakuya is also an exception, he is the strongest ever shinigami of the leading noble clan. We get the vibe from the manga that Byakuya is on par with Kenpachi and if Kenpachi is strong enough to defeat his captain, we can expect Byakuya to defeat other captains from the same era, it all depends on personal limits. Yes, I know Kubo didn't give us exact numbers that describe their personal limits, it's just my opinion based on the info from the manga. Actually most of the discussions boil down to opinions because we have incomplete data. And even when Kubo gives us data, people challenge their validity which makes things even more complicated.


And we've seen so little from Rose to even determine what his learning rate is or what his limits are. It's also ridiculous to think Shunsui is stronger than both Love and Rose combined with their masks on.

As I said, if Kubo gives info that says/implies/hints Rose is stronger, I can change my mind. And why is it ridiculous to think that Shunsui can be stronger than Love & Rose combined? Isshin or Aizen can probably take on Love & Rose (mask+shikai) with their sealed swords, Shunsui (shikai) would certainly have a good chance of defeating them. It's as if you've never seen a captain defeating two captains.

jaymizzo
December 07, 2010, 01:41 PM
Rose Was Matched against Extremely strong opponents, who byakuya wouldnt be able to last a second against.

Rose never had the chance to show anything else, other than what he showed against Starrk, and even though it wasnt enough, it was still a good display.

Logically Rose would beat Byakuya.
But since we have only seen a few if not one of Roses Techniques, it would make sense if byakuya won with those terms.
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Shunsui can't beat two captains at once for a good reason. He tends to only succeed in battle when he's able to utilize cheap shots. Two on one with no interference really cramps his style and he wouldnt be able to hang. Stark was completely dominating him until Ukitake stepped in and Love & Rose kept Stark busy for Shunsui to cheap shot. Also, his durability is questionable since one cero temporarily KOed him and Aizen one shotted with one slash. Kenpachi may have beaten two captains but he's a different beast than Shunsui.

Shunshui is extremely strong, It wouldnt suprise me if he could take them both. Yes his shikai is Based on chipshotting, but you do realize his shikai has multiple abilities right!? He doesnt just rely on one game.
And we have no idea how Shunsui would have done against starrk, because as we saw, he countered all of starks cero's

And About being Ko'ed, Shunshui was simply lying on the floor, pretending to be dead, untill lisa hit him.
And about Aizen, Seriously dont even go there, 1 they were all distracted and 2 Its Aizen lawl, Name me 2 people who wouldnt get 1shotted by a serious Aizen aside from ichigo, Yama, Isshin, Yoroichi and Urahara

Raizen
December 07, 2010, 02:11 PM
Actually it kind of blossoms from the flower at the end of it, so it get's crap behind and around it too, from what I could tell. Hence it'd be tricky to get him Basically what's going to be happening is it's going to be a swordsman against a whipper here, who also has access to a grenade. It'll take a while, particularly since Byakuya's damn good with speed, but without Kido his offense is lacking in comparison.
My take is the explosion or any kind of musical melody rose plays has to be preceded by the whip connecting/attaching to something (ie the wolf). Otherwise, rose cannot play the sonata.

Furthermore, what is to stop byaku7ya from shuunpo-ing to rose why he tries to whip and cuts him. Rose has shown no speed feats or even seem remotely fast. All he is is flashy, and that won't help him against someone as lethal as byakuya
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When doesn't Byakuya underestimate his opponent?? Byakuya's badass, but he's incredibly arrogant. He's lucky Zommari didn't go for his head right from the start. And Ichigo could've slit his throat immediatley after going Bankai. Plus, whenever he fights an opponent(except Renji, who always gets owned pretty much) he always ends up coming out a bloody mess. Byakuya's overcondfidence always ends up letting his opponent get a good few hits in, as long as they're somewhere in his league at the very least.
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Byakuya was overconfident against ichigo b/c he didn't expect ichigo to jump in power level so high. Once he got serious, ichigo was in trouble and needed his hollow to bail him out.

Zommari couldn't go for byakuya's head. As aizen and others have stated, in a battle, it is the battle of reiatsu. Byakuya was simply more powerful than zomari, hence he couldn't go for the head and control byakuya fully like he did rukia. The best he could do was control a part of byakuya. If zomari's ability was that powerful, he would have aizen on his knees no? :eyeroll

Byakuya has been in about 3 real battles. Against renji, ichigo, and zomarri. He pwned renji. He was cocky against ichigo but suffered the most damaged when the hollow took complete control. And against zomari, those wounds were self inflicted. Wounds or not, the end result was the same. He made a fool of his opponents. Against another captain, he won't be careless as he was against a VC, a human, and a hollow. He'll attack seriously from the start. Again, rose has not shown the speed needed to keep up with byakuya and his whip is not verstaile enough to catch him
[hr]

Rose Was Matched against Extremely strong opponents, who byakuya wouldnt be able to last a second against.

Rose never had the chance to show anything else, other than what he showed against Starrk, and even though it wasnt enough, it was still a good display.

Logically Rose would beat Byakuya.
But since we have only seen a few if not one of Roses Techniques, it would make sense if byakuya won with those terms.
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I definitely don't agree. Starks is powerful, but I don't believe that he is so strong that byakuya wouldn't stand a chance. Byakuya is no slouch. he is one of the more powerful captains. it is rose that has shown no impressive feats.

People (not necessarily you) have this failed misconception that mask gives u boost equivalent or greater than bankai :notrust, yet love w/ his mask and shikai couldn't even scratch starks while shunsui took him out with one hit in shikai. That is a HUGE difference in power levels right these

El Samurai Guapo
December 07, 2010, 05:57 PM
I want to start this by mentioning that I agree with Jackk's last few posts on this thread regarding the ages of the older shinigami. His analysis of past events in the manga makes more sense to me than Random101's.


You don't have the luxury to hold back if your opponent is much superior. Resurreccion vs shikai is a complicated subject, I must say I don't agree with your assessment. The resurreccions of strong arrancars did certainly have impressive abilities but it is also true for shikai of strong shinigami. Yamamato's can destroy everything in sight, Aizen's can make people see whatever he wants, Shunsui's can force you to obey his rules, Shinji's can reverse your vision, Soifon's can two-hit kill you, etc.

Hence my point about shikai usually being a weapon change with latent (hidden) traits. In Shunsui's case, his swords change from a daisho to two long scimitar like swords which have the added effect of the games. Shunsui does not however, become faster, stronger, or receive an increase of reiatsu by releasing. An arrancar on the other hand, we've seen multiple examples where the above is true when they release. For them, it's a complete form change that releases there hollow powers, making them more powerful pretty much across the board.

Moreover, no, even more importantly we're talking about Starrk here -which is why you're argument is even more flawed. Starrk was unique among the arrancar (at least the ones we saw) in that his soul was split into two (http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-chapter-374-page-17.html)while he was sealed. He himself says when they become one their true power is released. In other words, no, Starrk in all likelyhood didn't have what it takes to dominate Shunsui while he was sealed, but released Starrk was obviously a totally different story, as he became much stronger; probably more so than the other espada did going from sealed -> resurrecion.


Shunsui was able to hold his own against Stark when they were both sealed, Stark was NOT much superior to Shunsui as you suggest. The evidence of my weak (!) argument is actually pretty solid. And Stark was dead serious after he released, he was trying to force Shunsui to go bankai (http://mangable.com/bleach/chapter-361/12/).

It's true that he wanted to see his bankai, and that alone suggests that Starrk's goal (at least at that point) was not to kill Shunsui. And Starrk was still allowing himself to get distracted by arguing with Lilynette (http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-chapter-375-page-8.html). Shunsui was the one who was dead serious after releasing though, immediately trying kill Starrk by throwing his hat at him as a distraction (http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-chapter-375-page-9.html) - which fails miserably as Starrk is much more agile than him.

Then Shunsui proceeds to use two of his games on Starrk -busho goma and taka oni - which also fail miserably. Starrk really doesn't get serious up until this point (http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-chapter-375-page-16.html) (though not serious enough to bring out his trump card) where he begins to utilize the guns' real potential: cero metralleta. At that point Shunsui was in trouble, there's no way he'd even have a chance to think about finding Starrk's shadow and stepping on it, even if his PMS zanpakutou was in the mood.


As I said, if Stark was seriously injured, he couldn't touch Shunsui. If Stark was so much faster, skilled and capable, Shunsui would have been long defeated. Even Stark gave more credit to Shunsui than you do, Shunsui was able to keep up with Stark but you talk as if Stark was totally humiliating Shunsui.

He pretty much was. He admitted to Shunsui that he was going to use his bankai. Even if you want to argue it's because of his zanpakutou not being in the mood to play the other games, that's still a loss for his shikai. Having a zanpakutou that only works half the time is just as bad as having a simple weapon changing zan. If his zanpakutou may not perform when the SHTF that's his problem, other characters don't have such lame handicaps. Also Shunsui basically admitted there that he didn't possess the raw skills to contend with Starrk, he needed his color game crutch to fight on even ground with him.

Starrk pretty much was humiliating Shunsui; he casually dodged multiple cheap shots and two of Shunsui's games didn't to crap. Then as soon as Starrk begins to seriously fight back, Shunsui's best buddy has to jump in and stop him from using his bankai. In fact, Juushirou's words suggest that the other two games wouldn't have made a difference. He told Shunsui he jumped in because it "doesn't look like you're about to use your bankai," not "it doesn't seem like your swords are in the mood to play."


And when did Stark land a good hit on Shunsui? 1) When Shunsui was distracted with WW 2) When Stark was supposedly gravely injured. Does it make sense that Stark failed to hit Shunsui when he was in perfect shape but managed to do so when he was half-dead? The simple explanation is "Stark wasn't half-dead", this is Bleach world, losing lots of blood isn't a life-threatening situation.

He would have hit him here if (http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-chapter-375-page-20.html)Juushirou hadn't jumped in. From that point on the fight was a two-on-one, so in all fairness Starkk didn't have much of an opportunity to get more hits in. The moment Starrk got serious Juushirou came into the picture. Besides, I never said Starrk was half-dead, I said he was slowed down by his massive chest wound (you need only look at the size of Shunsui's swords to know that stab through the chest left a pretty big cavity).


Love had a huge shikai which was blocking Stark's cero attacks and Shunsui was about to use bankai because, as stated many times, his sword was not in the mood. If Shunsui's sword had been in the mood from the get-go, he wouldn't have been forced to go bankai. In a fight excluding bankais, Love & Rose were losing, Shunsui had a pretty good chance of winning (if his sword was in the mood).

Well that's serious speculation on your part. I certainly don't agree. I don't think the other two games would have made much difference against cero metralleta, an certainly not the wolves.


IMO nobody can see an attack coming from their own shadow. If they don't know the technique, they get hit.

Well, IMO nobody should be able to reverse all the angles in their heads that sakanade inverts while fighting an opponent like Shinji, but you've said it would be possible for someone like Shunsui to pull it off because this is a manga, and what is normally impossible for a person to do in the real world is possible for a manga character. Well I say that Starrk and people at his level could dodge that attack if they weren't distracted by another opponent. Characters in bleach, especially Starrk, have reflexes beyond comprehension. The moment the tip of the sword begins to come out of his shadow, he notices and jumps out the way.


Random101 pointed out that the color game, with a safe color, turns Shunsui into a incorporeal spirit. If that's the case, wolves can't bite him at all.

And Shunsui can't hurt Starrk either. So what? Shunsui will just have 50 wolves hovering around him till he calls a color and then boom. He's definitely not gonna hit Starrk before one of the wolves bites him.


Kageoni can also be used to transfer Shunsui to a safe zone.

No it can't. Kageoni is "whoever gets their shadow stepped on loses." Rules say nothing about Shunsui being able to warp through shadows, or even being able to enter shadows other than Starrk's.


Love's shikai attack wasn't that impressive, it didn't hurt Stark at all and I don't think "a large portion of FKT" is the right phrase. We'll see their bankai in the future but if I were you, I wouldn't hold my hopes up if you are expecting techniques that dwarf HH.

Hifuki no kozuchi didn't hurt Starrk because it didn't hit him. When Love gave Starrk a mask-less ordinary whack from Tengumaru (http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-chapter-385-page-10.html) Starrk admitted that it hurt, and that Love was tough. There's no way an attack like Hifuki no Kozuchi, which was not only was a special shikai technique, but one backed hollowfication, would have left Starrk unscathed had it connected.


I agree that Yamamoto wasn't going for the kill but still Kubo made a point by letting them put up a fight, however hopeless it was.

Which isn't worth much if their opponent isn't being serious, and it's a 2 on 1.


Actually I think that Love & Rose were in very bad shape when they fought Aizen but when I tried to argue that in "Stark vs Love" thread, people strongly disagreed and said the wolves didn't do any serious damage at all. If that's the case, the way Love & Rose got defeated is humiliating.

They were injured, but it's not as bad as you were making it sound. The problem is, as I've said before, you have the habit of looking at things as either black or white (e.g. Shunsui killed Starrk so he's > Love and Rose combined). Love and Rose certainly weren't at 100% against Aizen. Most bankais we've seen thus far wouldn't do crap to Aizen, so it's really not surprising Love and Rose's shikai's were ineffective without the masks.


And dodging sneak attacks from someone doesn't mean you are superior to that person.

Actually it kind of does. If his sneak attacks failed, then what hope would he have ever had to hit an Aizen that was actually focused on him?


I don't think Aizen could have overpowered Shunsui in the same way he overpowered Love & Rose and no such thing did happen in the manga.

No such thing happened but the manga heavily implies it. Just cause Shunsui got cut down at the end doesn't really say Aizen needed to wait that long to take him out. An armless Soi Fon and Toushirou were also int he group that got taken out at the end, but it's fairly obvious Aizen could have finished them whenever. Yes, that includes Shinji too.


Aizen's performance against Isshin proved that he wasn't overwhelmingly strong in this category, Aizen's strong suit was to play tricks on people by using KS but he didn't need his strong suit to defeat Love & Rose.

Isshin was at 100% when he showed up and attacked Aizen (unlike everyone else that fought him), and Aizen himself had already been in multiple battles and taken a hado 96 from Yamamoto. The hogyouku may have healed his wounds, but it certainly did not restore his stamina. In fact, Isshin never damaged Aizen at all, Aizen just reached the point where he was to exhausted to continue.



Don't you say they all are in the same tier? Otherwise, I honestly don't know what you're talking about.

Yeah, but being in the same tier doesn't make them 100% equal. They are all close enough, however, that if one had an ability that suddenly makes him/her twice as strong, that same one should be able to defeat the rest.


Love forced Stark to use wolves because he has a huge club which blocks cero. It wasn't a feat of strength, it just happened that he had the perfect counter against Stark's cero guns. I agree that Rose is on par with Love but I don't agree that Love's situational feats can be used to support Rose.

Yet you use very situational feats, like Shunsui's victory over Starrk to support your claims. I'll play along though. So in other words, even if Shunsui had defeated Starrk's wolves, it wouldn't have counted for much because it simply meant that he had the perfect counter for them, and as such you couldn't say he's better than Love or Rose.


In Bleach (and in many other manga) being noble means you are better than other people. (on average) Being the strongest ever shinigami of the clan actually means something

Yeah, it means he's the strongest Kuchiki. How exactly does that translate to him being better than Rose, Kenpachi, Toushirou or anyone else who isn't a noble. Most of the powerful characters we know of aren't from noble families, so attempting to use that as an argument for Byakuya's superiority over Rose is really reaching.

Gran Maestro
December 07, 2010, 07:17 PM
I'd like to write a long answer but then we would be doing nothing but swimming in deep waters of speculation. I'm not Kubo, so

- I can't prove that Stark's sealed form was still strong because he was still #1 in sealed forms of espada. I thought pointing out the feats of all sealed arrancars would be enough for a testament to their strength.

- I can't prove that Shunsui was not humiliatingly weaker than Stark even though Stark himself complained why he had to face such a strong man, I thought Stark's failure to down/hurt Shunsui in such a long time would be enough evidence.

- I can't prove that Aizen can't overpower Shunsui without illusions even though Kubo himself hinted Shunsui's bankai might be strong enough to take down Aizen and his illusions. I can't further explain the concept of "taking advantage of an opening or dodging an opponent's attack is not equal to being overwhelmingly stronger." (See also Hisagi vs Tousen)

- I can't prove that Shunsui wouldn't need bankai to defeat Stark despite the fact that he defeated Stark with his shikai. I can't prove Ukitake did know Shunsui's shikai wasn't in the mood due to Shunsui's failure to play some games, hence the intervention.

- I can't prove that Shunsui is stronger than Love and Rose despite the fact that Kubo, the mangaka, chose the path of making them lose and making Shunsui win in a fair color game (making his opponent, Stark, acknowledge the power of Shunsui and his techniques in the process).

- I can't prove why lack of any hype (Rose) is worse than hype (Byakuya) which suggests some person is extraordinary and is expected to perform better than the other. I can't prove Yamamoto's words about Shunsui wasn't for the lulz.

- I can't prove why the masks don't make an overwhelming difference despite the fact that they were rarely used in FKT battles and didn't help vizards win any battle, possibly due to quick dissolution against strong opponents. (Hachigen's win is by help of kido, not vizard abilities)

Bleach is not math where you can undeniably prove a theory, we need to analyze the events and make the best evaluations according to the info in hand. If you think Love is stronger than Shunsui, or Rose is stronger than Byakuya based on your particular liking for the mentioned characters, good for you. I would rather wait for supportive manga evidence but we have free speech in this forum and even Primecut keeps voicing her weird opinions, so I guess it's all right.

exacta
December 07, 2010, 08:42 PM
My take is the explosion or any kind of musical melody rose plays has to be preceded by the whip connecting/attaching to something (ie the wolf). Otherwise, rose cannot play the sonata.

Furthermore, what is to stop byaku7ya from shuunpo-ing to rose why he tries to whip and cuts him. Rose has shown no speed feats or even seem remotely fast. All he is is flashy, and that won't help him against someone as lethal as byakuya
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Byakuya was overconfident against ichigo b/c he didn't expect ichigo to jump in power level so high. Once he got serious, ichigo was in trouble and needed his hollow to bail him out.

Zommari couldn't go for byakuya's head. As aizen and others have stated, in a battle, it is the battle of reiatsu. Byakuya was simply more powerful than zomari, hence he couldn't go for the head and control byakuya fully like he did rukia. The best he could do was control a part of byakuya. If zomari's ability was that powerful, he would have aizen on his knees no? :eyeroll

Byakuya has been in about 3 real battles. Against renji, ichigo, and zomarri. He pwned renji. He was cocky against ichigo but suffered the most damaged when the hollow took complete control. And against zomari, those wounds were self inflicted. Wounds or not, the end result was the same. He made a fool of his opponents. Against another captain, he won't be careless as he was against a VC, a human, and a hollow. He'll attack seriously from the start. Again, rose has not shown the speed needed to keep up with byakuya and his whip is not verstaile enough to catch him
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I definitely don't agree. Starks is powerful, but I don't believe that he is so strong that byakuya wouldn't stand a chance. Byakuya is no slouch. he is one of the more powerful captains. it is rose that has shown no impressive feats.

People (not necessarily you) have this failed misconception that mask gives u boost equivalent or greater than bankai :notrust, yet love w/ his mask and shikai couldn't even scratch starks while shunsui took him out with one hit in shikai. That is a HUGE difference in power levels right these

Okay, I have no idea where you got Zommari not being able to go for Byakuya's head, cuz that was NEVER stated, and it obviously could work since he got his hand and his leg. He never aimed for Byakuya's head. Zommari was showing off his ability too much in that fight, if he used it before Byakuya went Bankai or figured out how to counter he would've won. I don't think Byakuya's vastly stronger than Zommari at all, in case you haven't realized, Byakuyas ability is absolutely THE worst match-up for Zommari.

And with Aizen, you completely overlooked something. For Zommari to use that ability, he has to LOOK at his opponent. Look. At. Aizen. Aizen can just hold out his zanpakuto in front of his body and Zommari's completely boned. Hell, he has 52 eyes all over his body, so no matter where Aizen is standing, hes completely screwed. He can't even open his eyes otherwise hes screwed. Thats an even worse match-up than Byakuya!!!!!:wall

We haven't even seen Rose use a flash step in battle in the manga. We got to see Rose fight for about 5 seconds. We've seen NOTHING. He used one technique, and its implied he has like 10 others. We can't compare them at all. Love smacked Stark into the ground, and he can't stab with his weapon, so Shunsui stabbing would naturally be a more fatal attack.

And why does it always go over peoples heads that all of Shunsuis successful shots were cheap?? Come to think of it, alot of his unsuccessful ones were too. And that was two hits with shikai, not one, and his Iro Oni MADE his attack fatal, because black was his strongest color. Love swatted away those ceros like they were flies, Shunsui ran. In terms of physical strength, Love> Shunsui, and I'm NOT saying Love > Shunsui. I also said that sneaking up on opponents is not a feat indicating greater strength than characters that don't do that, or even those that do.

And now of course I have no choice but to explain for the 756th time that I'm not saying Shunsui's weak, nor do I dislike that cheap shot part of his character, I think it's one of his best traits, but it's a fact.
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And why is it ridiculous to think that Shunsui can be stronger than Love & Rose combined? Isshin or Aizen can probably take on Love & Rose (mask+shikai) with their sealed swords, Shunsui (shikai) would certainly have a good chance of defeating them. It's as if you've never seen a captain defeating two captains.

Does that post imply that Shunsui has a good chance of defeating Aizen? Because he has no chance in hell...becaue he already lost......with half of the Gotei 13 and the Vizards.....who cares if some of them were injured?? They had him completely outnumberd, and all of them by Bleachs standard had decent strength.Seeing as Isshin was able to exhaust Aizen before he transformed, I would assume the same.

Takahashi
December 07, 2010, 09:01 PM
I don't understand, what does Shunsui have to do with Rose or Byakuya at all?

Shunsui and Rose fought different Starks.

Shunsui was pretending to be hurt, but he never faced the wolves, he got a cheapshot to win. Really, the only thing we know in relation to him and Stark is that he can take a shot to the back and be okay, nothing else really.

Zommari has nothing to do with anything, he'd rape anyone without a counter ability like Byakuya. The only thing we should take from the Zommari fight is that Byakuya does know some of the assassination techs, and he thinks quickly on his feet.

For Stark, well, Rose got beat pretty bad, but he was also #1, and only lost to a hax shikai (seriously, what's with so many Shikai's being better than Bankai....).

If they're ranked by Reiatsu, then it's pretty obvious that Stark's Cero and Wolves hit a lot harder than the other Espada right? At first I thought this was a testament to Rose, but if you think about it, Yammy was #0, and he was blasting off Ceros in Byakuya and Kenpachi's face with what looked like minimal damage. Granted, Byakuya also used Bankai in that fight, something Rose isn't allowed to do yet.

I don't know what to think about Yammy, I mean, it's canon and all, but it's bullshit canon that was so insignificant it was an off panel end...

Unless somehow the Wolves are stronger than anything Yammy can dish out, which I assume isn't true.

El Samurai Guapo
December 07, 2010, 09:33 PM
Well of course you can't prove any of those points, otherwise we wouldn't be having this discussion. I don't argue against facts, nor do I argue just for the sake of arguing.


I can't prove that Stark's sealed form was still strong because he was still #1 in sealed forms of espada. I thought pointing out the feats of all sealed arrancars would be enough for a testament to their strength.

I never said his sealed form was weak, I just said he didn't have what it takes to bring down a captain like Shunsui while he was sealed. It almost seems like you're arguing that Starrk didn't jump that much in strength by releasing though. I thought the fact that pointing out Starrk was only fighting with 1/2 of his soul was enough to tell he was a lot weaker while sealed.


- I can't prove that Shunsui was not humiliatingly weaker than Stark even though Stark himself complained why he had to face such a strong man, I thought Stark's failure to down/hurt Shunsui in such a long time would be enough evidence.

Well I guess I went overboard saying that Starrk was humiliating Shunsui. Despite what you may think I actually think highly of him, it's just that I think Starrk was better. I don't think it's an insult to say that the primera espada could have defeated any captain's shikai. In other words, I think Shunsui would have comfortably won, had he used his bankai. Same goes for either Love or Rose.


I can't prove that Aizen can't overpower Shunsui without illusions even though Kubo himself hinted Shunsui's bankai might be strong enough to take down Aizen and his illusions.

We were comparing shikai here weren't we? It's certainly possible that Shunsui bankai really is that hax, but I don't see him overpowering Aizen otherwise. I think it's obvious that Kubo didn't have Love and Rose use their bankai against Aizen either so that they could be used against even stronger enemies in the future. It's obvious that Ichigo had to be the one to defeat Aizen, so if Love & co. used their bankai against Aizen he would have had to crush them for plot purposes, and their usefulness in future arcs would be out the window.


I can't further explain the concept of "taking advantage of an opening or dodging an opponent's attack is not equal to being overwhelmingly stronger." (See also Hisagi vs Tousen)

Well if Shunsui was physically as strong as Aizen he certainly didn't show it. He had plenty of opportunities to face him head on, yet chose to go with his preferred method: sneak attacks. The fact that Aizen casually blocked and dodged the attacks while being preoccupied with Histsugaya tells me Shunsui wouldn't have done any better than Love or Rose had he chose to take Aizen head on.


- I can't prove that Shunsui wouldn't need bankai to defeat Stark despite the fact that he defeated Stark with his shikai. I can't prove Ukitake did know Shunsui's shikai wasn't in the mood due to Shunsui's failure to play some games, hence the intervention.

Well if Juushirou did know Shunsui's zanpakutou wasn't in the mood (which I find likely, given how close the two are), then why didn't we hear him say that? Why did he jump in and say "it doesn't look like your about to use your bankai." Oh and Shunsui never said later on (to Starrk) than he planned on using his bankai because KK wasn't in the mood, all he said was that he hadn't used kageoni cause his sword wasn't it mood. So telling me that Shunsui was going to use his bankai simply because his sword wasn't willing to play the other games is also speculation.


- I can't prove that Shunsui is sttronger than Love and Rose despite the fact that Kubo, the mangaka, chose the path of making them lose and making Shunsui win in a fair color game (making his opponent, Stark, acknowledge the power of Shunsui and his techniques in the process).

If Rose and Love lost because their shikai's weren't effective against those hax wolves, then Shunsui lost a long time ago when he couldn't do anything but run from cero metralleta and get ready to go bankai. I don't count either as loss because in both cases neither of them were defeated. Even if Love and Rose were critically injured like you believe, we've know from Madarame Ikkaku that shinigami can still use their bankais when there half-dead and come back and win.


- I can't prove why lack of any hype (Rose) is worse than hype (Byakuya) which suggests some person is extraordinary and is expected to perform better than the other. I can't prove Yamamoto's words about Shunsui wasn't for the lulz.

Well IMO, all the characters who have yet to reveal their bankai have more hype behind them than those that already have several times. Odds are the next batch of enemies are going to be far stronger than the espada, and those who will take them on are the characters who have yet to reveal their secret weapons, as Shunsui would say.

I don't think Yamamoto praised Shunsui for lulz either. I think he did it to build hype around him, and imply he was one of the stronger captains, if not the strongest after himself (Juushirou obviously doesn't count cause of his illness). However, I don't think Kubo wanted us to take from that that Shunsui can WTFPWN like you additionally, at that point Kubo may not have even known he was going to introduce the vaizards to the story. So yeah, that's a pretty weak argument for Shunsui being stronger than any of the vaizard ex-captains.


- I can't prove why the masks don't make an overwhelming difference despite the fact that they were rarely used in FKT battles and didn't help vizards win any battle, possibly due to quick dissolution against strong opponents. (Hachigen's win is by help of kido, not vizard abilities)

The masks didn't help them win because none except Hachi actually had any victories. Hiyori and Lisa's fight was interrupted the moment they released their shikais. Love and Rose lost their masks while getting blown of by one of the most relentless attacks in bleach, and their fight was also interrupted. Love was apparently pissed about that by the way, Shunsui's lucky that wasn't Kenpachi's fight he got involved with. Shinji stupidly took his off before even doing anything with it, and Kensei is a big question mark. We know from Ichigo and Mashiro though that the masks do make a big difference though.


Bleach is not math where you can undeniably prove a theory, we need to analyze the events and make the best evaluations according to the info in hand. If you think Love is stronger than Shunsui, or Rose is stronger than Byakuya based on your particular liking for the mentioned characters, good for you. I would rather wait for supportive manga evidence but we have free speech in this forum and even Primecut keeps voicing her weird opinions, so I guess it's all right.

Well if you think Shunsui's a super captain that can take on two other captains at once, defeat any espada in a fair fight with his shikai, and overpower Aizen, based on your particular liking for him, then good for you too. Exactly, we do have free speech on this forum, so don't be surprised to get called out on the BS that you write.

Waking_Dreamer
December 07, 2010, 09:42 PM
If they're ranked by Reiatsu, then it's pretty obvious that Stark's Cero and Wolves hit a lot harder than the other Espada right? At first I thought this was a testament to Rose, but if you think about it, Yammy was #0, and he was blasting off Ceros in Byakuya and Kenpachi's face with what looked like minimal damage. Granted, Byakuya also used Bankai in that fight, something Rose isn't allowed to do yet.

I don't know what to think about Yammy, I mean, it's canon and all, but it's bullshit canon that was so insignificant it was an off panel end...

Unless somehow the Wolves are stronger than anything Yammy can dish out, which I assume isn't true

I always thought Starrk fit the number #1 rank for Reaitsu since hes main attacking techs are Cero spam and wolf spam. He has so much spiritiual power he can throw up to 30 pieces of his soul and launch them at the enemy without any sign of exhaustion.

Yammy is just a massive mass of spritual energy but from what weve seen, his ceros charge up time is long enough for captain class to avoid it if they see him going to use it. He may indeed have the strongest ceros but hes not tagging anyone with captain skill with it - hence the battle irrelevant enough to be off-panel...

El Samurai Guapo
December 07, 2010, 09:44 PM
Unless somehow the Wolves are stronger than anything Yammy can dish out, which I assume isn't true.

Perhaps not individually, but collectively they were far deadlier of an attack than anything Yammi has done before. Hell, the wolves was far deadlier than pretty much anything we've seen before from anyone. Byakuya may have taken Yammi out, but like you said, he used his bankai, and he had Kenpachi with him, whom I think is stronger than Byakuya when he gets serious.

Jackk
December 07, 2010, 10:03 PM
The basic jist of my point is this: You're arguing it to be fact that if they had been around for 2000 years they would look really old. However in canon the aging is so inconsistent and varied and has so many holes in it that arguing ANYTHING about it has to be ANYTHING does not fly. Remotely.

Well I was really strongly suggesting that it would make more sense to me... for them to logically look older than they do now, if they really do have way over 2 thousand years of age.


You may indeed argue that you feel they should look older, that's valid at least and I can certainly see where such a thing comes from. However arguing it SHOULD be that way requires information about the aging that we simply do not have.

Right, in order for me to state such as thing as an absolute fact, I would require more specific information about their aging from Kubo. Information that we currently do not have. In essence, what you're stating is that my assumption that they should logically look older after well over more than 2 thousand years may or may not be true. That's not exactly disproving what I'm stating.

Therefore, while it may not be fact that they will look old after 2 thousand years due to the simply fact that we do not have a more concrete and definite aging system from Kubo, it still does not mean that they will look young either... due to the simply fact that we do not have a more concrete and definite aging system from Kubo. Do you see what I did there? The same thing applies both ways. And as I've told you before, if we keep going down this line, we're just basically arguing against opinions.

Also, do keep in mind what I told you earlier about the aging not even being my only argument. There is a reason why I also put significant emphasis on establishing the fact that there were more captains and more captain commanders before Yamamoto.

In other words, your next statement to support your opinion/assumption that Shunsui and Ukitake are more than 2 thousand years old would have been this: (which you have already used)


And if no one became a captain for roughly 2000 years that's pretty sad.

And I reply to that in the following way:

Who says that becoming a captain through graduating from the academy is the only way to become a captain though?

And I explain what I'm talking about inside the following spoiler.

We know that there are 3 different ways of becoming a captain (I'm not going to type the 3 methods here, just check the link) as noted by Tousen (http://www.mangareader.net/94-600-1/bleach/chapter-146.html) in the SS arc. (Kenpachi became a captain by killing the previous 11th squad captain (http://www.mangareader.net/94-600-2/bleach/chapter-146.html) in front of 200 or more members of the 11th division, which is only one of the 3 methods for becoming a captain. I'm sure that none of the methods listed by Tousen require a the shinigami to have necessarily gone through the Academy.

Not to mention, that it's also certainly very possible that there had not been any vacancies for captain positions in the old Gotei 13 for a long time... and if there were open positions at some point, someone could have been appointed without that person having to go through the academy if that person met the requirement to be a captain of the Gotei 13, had recommendations, was tested for it and supervised by other current captains etc.

Further, we know for a fact that even though Yamamoto founded his own shinigami academy around 2100 years ago (also, here is Renji's profile page that I was talking about in another post... where Kubo stated that Renji was a graduate of the 2066th year of the shinigami school (http://www.mangareader.net/94-533-23/bleach/chapter-79.html).), Yama has still only been the Captain commander for the Gotei 13 for the past 1000 years (http://www.mangareader.net/94-47878-6/bleach/chapter-394.html), and there were more Captain commanders of the Gotei 13 before Yama (http://www.mangareader.net/94-677-8/bleach/chapter-223.html). That's an extremely long history for the Gotei 13, but it makes sense for that organization to be god knows how old... considering that soul society is the place souls go to (besides those souls that actually end up going to hell). You think there was a Gotei 13 with no captains during all the previous generations while the previous captain commanders were serving, (Yama has only served as the captain commander for the past 1000 years) just because Yama's shinigami school didn't exist yet? ...There obviously were many more captains and they didn't leave their positions as captains just because Yama is training other shinigamis in his new academy.

And this also means that Yama wasn't even the captain commander around 2100 years ago when he founded his shinigami academy, he was likely some sort of captain though...but not the captain commander since he has only been the captain commander for the past 1000 years. That would also mean that Yama was a normal captain at the same time as Shunsui and Ukitake for around 1000 years, if you still want to insist on claiming that Shunsui and Ukitake have been captains for 2000 years. I don't buy the notion that Yama, shunsui and Ukitake all served together as fellow captains under another captain commander... until Yama became the new captain commander.


Further, all we know is that apparently Shunsui and Ukitake were the firsts to become captains through Yama's academy, that's all. We don't know when exactly they entered the academy, when exactly they actually graduated from the academy, nor when exactly they became actual captains. We don't know anything concrete about any of that, therefore it's impossible to say anything definite from what we currently know.

The basic jist of my point is this: You're arguing it to be fact that if they were the firsts to become captains from Yama's academy, then they must be more than 2000 years old, must have been captains for around 2000 years, and that it must be this way because it would otherwise be pretty sad if no one became a captain for roughly 2000 years. However in canon going through the academy is not even required in order to become a captain. Not to mention that Yamamoto was not even the captain commander 2000 years ago since he was only the captain commander for the past 1000 years.

Heck we don't even know how the shinigami academy worked in its earlier days either. It's a fact that the shinigami academy is not the only thing that may produce captains. Shunsui and Ukitake are only the firsts to have become captains through Yama's academy. Nothing more beyond that can be said.

Arguing that Shunsui and Ukitake SHOULD be captains for 2000 years requires information that we simply do not have.

This is precisely why, in my previous post, I had presented you with a few questions, which for some reason you left unanswered. What I stated before was the following:

We agree that they have been captains for at least 200 years, because that is an actual fact from the manga (http://read.mangashare.com/Bleach/chapter-315.5/page013.html), which we both already agreed on. Shouldn't we just leave it at that? I'm willing to leave it at that. Wouldn't that be a reasonable resolution?

Or are you still going to insist on claiming your opinion as fact, no matter what? No offense.



Zommari couldn't go for byakuya's head. As aizen and others have stated, in a battle, it is the battle of reiatsu. Byakuya was simply more powerful than zomari, hence he couldn't go for the head and control byakuya fully like he did rukia. The best he could do was control a part of byakuya.


I wouldn't be so sure about Zomari not being able to mark Byakuya's head with his special ability, particularly because he did get his hand and leg, and it wasn't stated that he could not get his head. Maybe Zomari really could and just didn't do it due to pure arrogance and stupidity, or maybe you're right and he can't control the head of a person with significant reiatsu (though he can still control the other parts of his opponent's body). Who knows. It's speculation.

In any case, you are right in that Shinigami fights are battles of reiatsu. (hollows and Arrancars have reiatsu too, in fact, Espadas are ranked according to their reiatsu. We know this about the Espada from the second data book.)

http://read.mangashare.com/Bleach/chapter-105/page007.html
http://read.mangashare.com/Bleach/chapter-391/page016.html

I do actually agree with you in that Byakuya was superior than Zomari. Byakuya did use his Bankai to take him down though, and we know that Bankai increases the user's power significantly (not even counting the abilities), and he had to use Gōkei and other things etc.

On the other hand, Rose (along with Love)... only used Shikai and shikai + Mask in other instances to hold his own against the released Espada #1 Stark... who has to be significantly more powerful than Espada #7. Rose even withstood several attacks/explosions from the soul wolves of released Espada #1, which was apparently his ultimate technique. Add Bankai and Bankai + Mask to Rose, and yeah...he's going to logically be significantly more powerful. Rose is overall more powerful than Byakuya, in my opinion.

Heck, Zomari's reiatsu is so much inferior than Stark's....by the simple fact that Zomari is just the Espada #7, and we know that only Espadas of rank #4 and higher are not allowed to release their ressureccion inside the temple of las noches. Zomari's power/reiatsu is much much lower than Stark's...

http://read.mangashare.com/Bleach/chapter-345/page008.html
http://read.mangashare.com/Bleach/chapter-345/page009.html

I still don't think that Byakuya could handle Stark's soul wolves technique. Granted Rose was pushed to a point where he would have needed to use his Bankai... had Shunsui not interrupted their fight, but Byakuya actually used his Bankai against Zomari because his Shikai isn't good enough on stronger opponents. I think that Rose doesn't need his Bankai to take down Espada #7. Rose with his superior reiatsu will overpower Zomari while using only shikai, maybe Shikai + Mask at most...if Rose wants to end it even faster.


(Hachigen's win is by help of kido, not vizard abilities)


That can't be the case. Most of Hachi's "kido" and barrier abilities are techniques that he came up with himself using hollowfication after he became a vaizard.

http://read.mangashare.com/Bleach/chapter-225/page012.html
http://read.mangashare.com/Bleach/chapter-228/page013.html
http://read.mangashare.com/Bleach/chapter-237/page009.html (also notice that he holds reiatsu similar to that of hollows, without even wearing the Mask too.)

Apparently just the change of his reiatsu being that of a hybrid now allowed Hachi to create certain techniques and gain abilities he couldn't use before. According to Hachi his barriers cannot be dispelled by Shinigami Kidō. Further, the barriers he used to encase Barragan (http://read.mangashare.com/Bleach/chapter-368/page018.html) and specially the barrier he used to encase his hand (http://read.mangashare.com/Bleach/chapter-370/page014.html) in order to teleport it inside Barragan was all due to him being a vaizard. He did use his Mask (http://read.mangashare.com/Bleach/chapter-370/page009.html) in one instance for defensive measurements against Barragan because the Mask still boosts his overall power and defensive capabilities, but the Mask was decayed and destroyed by Respira (http://read.mangashare.com/Bleach/chapter-370/page011.html)... And still, the Mask was powerful enough to protect his face from respira. Had Hachi not used his Mask there, we would have been killed because his head would have been infected by respira, and no head = dead person...

How does this relate to Rose? Well... it means that the same principle of hybrid reiatsu while not wearing the Mask applies to Rose too(Hachi suggests this in the 3rd link that I posted above, where he says that they all have reiatsu similar to hollows etc.). Then while Rose puts on his Mask, he accesses a further boost in power/strength, speed, and defense. Even Ichigo displays hybrid hollow/shinigami reiatsu while not wearing his Mask.

Therefore, I believe that that is another good point supporting my belief that Rose is more powerful and on a higher level than Byakuya. Granted it's still my opinion, but I don't think it's completely unfounded...since I've given different facts from the manga to support my claims. As I've said before, I do also hope that we see more from Rose and the other vaizards soon...so that we can give an even better and more accurate comparison here.

I do recognize that I'm going off of mainly opinion and interpretations of certain events from the manga, with little actual fighting from Rose....but that's not exactly my fault as Kubo hasn't really shown him in more fights yet. It still doesn't mean that Rose is weak until he proves otherwise by showing his other techniques, as well as his Bankai etc. Particularly because there's actually reason to believe that he's pretty strong, in my opinion anyway.

I still think that Rose will win this fight against Byakuya.

Takahashi
December 07, 2010, 11:20 PM
Perhaps not individually, but collectively they were far deadlier of an attack than anything Yammi has done before. Hell, the wolves was far deadlier than pretty much anything we've seen before from anyone. Byakuya may have taken Yammi out, but like you said, he used his bankai, and he had Kenpachi with him, whom I think is stronger than Byakuya when he gets serious.

To be fair, Byakuya and Kenpachi both got blasted by a Cero head on before they even started their competition and Byakuya released his Bankai. It may have been dodged however, I'm unsure.

Actually, I've been thinking, despite both of them looking pretty roughed up, according to Kenpachi the fight was boring. You think they continued their own fight after they downed him and gave each other those injuries? :amuse

Agh, damn Kubo for giving us so little info on the supposedly most powerful Espada. The only thing we know is that he lost to two (Mayuri probably didn't step in) captains, we don't even know if two were REQUIRED.

At any rate, Yammy's most powerful Cero should at least be better than a few wolves, considering Stark could spam the damn things, #0 had better be able to keep up with a couple of 'em in terms of power.

El Samurai Guapo
December 08, 2010, 02:10 AM
That can't be the case. Most of Hachi's "kido" and barrier abilities are techniques that he came up with himself using hollowfication after he became a vaizard.

http://read.mangashare.com/Bleach/chapter-225/page012.html
http://read.mangashare.com/Bleach/chapter-228/page013.html
http://read.mangashare.com/Bleach/chapter-237/page009.html (also notice that he holds reiatsu similar to that of hollows, without even wearing the Mask too.)

Apparently just the change of his reiatsu being that of a hybrid now allowed Hachi to create certain techniques and gain abilities he couldn't use before. According to Hachi his barriers cannot be dispelled by Shinigami Kidō. Further, the barriers he used to encase Barragan (http://read.mangashare.com/Bleach/chapter-368/page018.html) and specially the barrier he used to encase his hand (http://read.mangashare.com/Bleach/chapter-370/page014.html) in order to teleport it inside Barragan was all due to him being a vaizard. He did use his Mask (http://read.mangashare.com/Bleach/chapter-370/page009.html) in one instance for defensive measurements against Barragan because the Mask still boosts his overall power and defensive capabilities, but the Mask was decayed and destroyed by Respira (http://read.mangashare.com/Bleach/chapter-370/page011.html)... And still, the Mask was powerful enough to protect his face from respira. Had Hachi not used his Mask there, we would have been killed because his head would have been infected by respira, and no head = dead person...

How does this relate to Rose? Well... it means that the same principle of hybrid reiatsu while not wearing the Mask applies to Rose too(Hachi suggests this in the 3rd link that I posted above, where he says that they all have reiatsu similar to hollows etc.). Then while Rose puts on his Mask, he accesses a further boost in power/strength, speed, and defense. Even Ichigo displays hybrid hollow/shinigami reiatsu while not wearing his Mask.

This is actually some really interesting stuff you've brought up here. I must have totally overlooked that bit with Hachi speaking about his barriers being an invention created post him becoming a vaizard. I actually think Rose exhibited some unique hybrid ability himself when he hypnotized that menos. That couldn't have been solely a zanpakutou technique as sealed zanpakutous are simply swords, yet musical abilities aren't exactly hollow material either...so the only thing I can think of is it's ability he gained from being both hollow and shinigami.

You know, when people speak about limits, and how Byakuya may have a higher limit than Rose (which I doubt), are they forgetting that the vaizards are the very result of what Urahara Kisuke originally wanted to achieve when he began his research and created the hogyouku? The vaizards naturally have much higher limits than pure shinigami because the hogyouku broke down the barrier between hollow and shinigami for them. And yes, they are complete hybrids; this was confirmed by Aizen himself. That bit about them being failed experiments or pseudo arrancar was just Aizen taunting them.

So even if Rose was already at the peak of his shinigami capabilities (which had to have been pretty high to begin with considering he was a captain and all), for the past 100 years he's definitely been able to climb much higher. I also agree that with Jackk that, while the mask fully brings out the hollow powers, hybrids at all times have unique reiatsu, which means they're likely stronger than they were prior to hybridization even without wearing the masks.

On another note, I said this on another thread recently but I might as well say it here too: I think shikai + mask doesn't even begin to compare to using bankai + mask. Not just because bankai is obviously superior to shikai, but because the zanpakutou and inner hollow are essentially the same being, and a full release of hollow powers likely requires the zanapakutou to be fully released first (which is what bankai is). In other words, I think the reason why it seems like Ichigo receives a bigger boost than from his mask than the vaizards did in FKT is because he only uses bankai + mask. I think when we see a real captain level shinigami use bankai + mask Ichigo's performances thus far will be put to shame. Not including FGT Ichigo of course (although who knows with bankai + mask Shinji, something 5-10x worse than sakanade sounds pretty damn scary)

Jackk
December 08, 2010, 02:48 AM
I actually think Rose exhibited some unique hybrid ability himself when he hypnotized that menos. That couldn't have been solely a zanpakutou technique as sealed zanpakutous are simply swords, yet musical abilities aren't exactly hollow material either...so the only thing I can think of is it's ability he gained from being both hollow and shinigami.

I always thought about this too, but for some reason I think I never mentioned it. Good point!

It's true that Rose shouldn't be able to have such an intricate musical ability while his sword is sealed, so he could have gained it with his hybrid powers similar to Hachi creating new hybrid techniques too.




You know, when people speak about limits, and how Byakuya may have a higher limit than Rose (which I doubt), are they forgetting that the vaizards are the very result of what Urahara Kisuke originally wanted to achieve when he began his research and created the hogyouku? The vaizards naturally have much higher limits than pure shinigami because the hogyouku broke down the barrier between hollow and shinigami for them. And yes, they are complete hybrids; this was confirmed by Aizen himself. That bit about them being failed experiments or pseudo arrancar was just Aizen taunting them.

So even if Rose was already at the peak of his shinigami capabilities (which had to have been pretty high to begin with considering he was a captain and all), for the past 100 years he's definitely been able to climb much higher. I also agree that with Jackk that, while the mask fully brings out the hollow powers, hybrids at all times have unique reiatsu, which means they're likely stronger than they were prior to hybridization even without wearing the masks.

Excellent point! I had completely overlooked this detail lol

You're right, their barrier between shinigami and hollow was broken, which gave them a whole new limit that they could reach and get even more powerful. It's also possible that they haven't even reached the full potential of their new limits as hybrids too, so they could likely still get even stronger.


On another note, I said this on another thread recently but I might as well say it here too: I think shikai + mask doesn't even begin to compare to using bankai + mask. Not just because bankai is obviously superior to shikai, but because the zanpakutou and inner hollow are essentially the same being, and a full release of hollow powers likely requires the zanapakutou to be fully released first (which is what bankai is). In other words, I think the reason why it seems like Ichigo receives a bigger boost than from his mask than the vaizards did in FKT is because he only uses bankai + mask. I think when we see a real captain level shinigami use bankai + mask Ichigo's performances thus far will be put to shame. Not including FGT Ichigo of course (although who knows with bankai + mask Shinji, something 5-10x worse than sakanade sounds pretty damn scary)

This is interesting too, and I agree with this concept as well.

I mean, their Mask gives them an overall boost to strength/power, speed, defense etc. right? ...Therefore, if they simply put on their Mask: their base skills get boosted.

If they use shikai and put on their Mask: their base skills + shikai skills get boosted,

Then... if they do bankai we know that they get a very significant power boost from Bankai (before even counting whatever more deadly abilities they may get in Bankai), then put on their Mask on top of that... and the result should be: a boost to their base skills + a boost to their Bankai!

And if summoning the Mask really is multiplicative, as in: taking their initial power and times it by at least 2. Then putting the Mask while in Bankai would theoretically at least double the power of their Bankai, no?

All speculation here, of course, but this is certainly very possible. In fact, the boost is already a given, just how much of a boost it will be is the real question...

El Samurai Guapo
December 08, 2010, 03:13 AM
And if summoning the Mask really is multiplicative, as in: taking their initial power and times it by at least 2. Then putting the Mask while in Bankai would theoretically at least double the power of their Bankai, no?

All speculation here, of course, but this is certainly very possible. In fact, the boost is already a given, just how much of a boost it will be is the real question...

Pretty much. If we were to say that Rose's power level in shikai is 100, and assuming the hollow mask at least doubles his strength, that bumps him up to 200 using shikai + mask. Now, we know bankai makes shinigami 5-10x stronger, so let's go with the conservative estimate and say Rose's bankai puts him at 500. Double that and you get 1,000 from bankai + mask, as opposed to mere 200 from shikai + mask. Pretty big difference. If we were to say bankai gives him 10x boost and put him at 1,000, then bankai + mask would bring him up to 2,000.

jaymizzo
December 08, 2010, 04:28 AM
I definitely don't agree. Starks is powerful, but I don't believe that he is so strong that byakuya wouldn't stand a chance. Byakuya is no slouch. he is one of the more powerful captains. it is rose that has shown no impressive feats.


Byakuya would not stand a chance against Starkk, no matter what you say.

Ichigo who is stronger than byakuya (before his trancendance) had alot of trouble with Just "sealed" ulquiorra who is said by aizens ranking system to be weaker than sealed Starrk.

Sealed Starrk is extremely fast that Bankai Ichigo couldn't even react fast enough, and Bankai ichigo > Byakuya in terms of speed and reflexes.

And Rose had to fight 2 opponents that byakuya if he tried would get slaughtered in an instant.

We do not have a clue how the fight between Shinshui and Starkk would have gone with no interventions. So unless your saying Byakuya isnt that far below than shunsui. then i dont see how he could survive against starkk

Raizen
December 08, 2010, 08:21 PM
Okay, I have no idea where you got Zommari not being able to go for Byakuya's head, cuz that was NEVER stated, and it obviously could work since he got his hand and his leg. He never aimed for Byakuya's head. Zommari was showing off his ability too much in that fight, if he used it before Byakuya went Bankai or figured out how to counter he would've won. I don't think Byakuya's vastly stronger than Zommari at all, in case you haven't realized, Byakuyas ability is absolutely THE worst match-up for Zommari.

And with Aizen, you completely overlooked something. For Zommari to use that ability, he has to LOOK at his opponent. Look. At. Aizen. Aizen can just hold out his zanpakuto in front of his body and Zommari's completely boned. Hell, he has 52 eyes all over his body, so no matter where Aizen is standing, hes completely screwed. He can't even open his eyes otherwise hes screwed. Thats an even worse match-up than Byakuya!!!!!:wall

We haven't even seen Rose use a flash step in battle in the manga. We got to see Rose fight for about 5 seconds. We've seen NOTHING. He used one technique, and its implied he has like 10 others. We can't compare them at all. Love smacked Stark into the ground, and he can't stab with his weapon, so Shunsui stabbing would naturally be a more fatal attack.

And why does it always go over peoples heads that all of Shunsuis successful shots were cheap?? Come to think of it, alot of his unsuccessful ones were too. And that was two hits with shikai, not one, and his Iro Oni MADE his attack fatal, because black was his strongest color. Love swatted away those ceros like they were flies, Shunsui ran. In terms of physical strength, Love> Shunsui, and I'm NOT saying Love > Shunsui. I also said that sneaking up on opponents is not a feat indicating greater strength than characters that don't do that, or even those that do.

And now of course I have no choice but to explain for the 756th time that I'm not saying Shunsui's weak, nor do I dislike that cheap shot part of his character, I think it's one of his best traits, but it's a fact.
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1. If he could have taken byakuya by the head, he would have done so. Taking control of a limb or an arm does not constitute taking control of the whole body. Furthermore, byakuya seemed like he exerted no effort in that battle. As for the aizen point, KS only comes into play when aizen wills it to. It is not something automatic thus giving zomarri many chances to take over if his ability permits such things, or at least allow him to become the numero espada. I don't think u understand the concept of "a battle is a battle of reiatsu"

2. Exactly. In their fight, neither rose nor love showed any speed feats. And against byakuya, u need speed. The guy is incredibly fast and lethal. Rose has got nothing going for him. For those sonatas to hit, the whip must connect to something first. You still have yet to show how rose can put up a defense while he is waving his whip around. He can't pull it back like a sword to defend

3. do u not see the spikes on love's club. If anything, that club should be more fatal than a regular sword. Yet a full blown hit did not injure starks in the least. He even went so far to use that fire move- which utterly failed

4. Lovewas only able to repel the ceros due to his massive shikai. If he had tanked them, then it would be a different argument. And shunsui DODGED the ceros, not ran from them. That alone showed how quick he is to be able to dodged dozens of ceros.

5. As shunsui stated himself. His character is that he has no character. You bag him because he use cheap shots, so by the same sense, are we to bag on aizen because he uses his KS to cheap shot his opponent? Ultimately, both starks and shunsui fought on even ground. Starks had cheap shotted shunsui earlier and shunsui did the same. In the end, shunsui won. Thus indicating his strength is far greater than both love and rose combined
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Byakuya would not stand a chance against Starkk, no matter what you say.

Ichigo who is stronger than byakuya (before his trancendance) had alot of trouble with Just "sealed" ulquiorra who is said by aizens ranking system to be weaker than sealed Starrk.

Sealed Starrk is extremely fast that Bankai Ichigo couldn't even react fast enough, and Bankai ichigo > Byakuya in terms of speed and reflexes.

And Rose had to fight 2 opponents that byakuya if he tried would get slaughtered in an instant.

We do not have a clue how the fight between Shinshui and Starkk would have gone with no interventions. So unless your saying Byakuya isnt that far below than shunsui. then i dont see how he could survive against starkk
Your logic fails because u are using ichigo as a measurement. ichigo's powers fluctuate. Both aizen and gin has noted that his strength paled compared to SS.

Crystal Black
December 09, 2010, 12:14 PM
How long can Rose hold his mask again because imo it still won't make any difference. Taking away Byakuya's kido will be troublesome for him though because unlike others it's actually apart of his Combat style. The match will basically be like Byakuya fighting against SS arc Ichigo again but this time replace Cicada for white lightning.

conn-man
December 11, 2010, 02:07 AM
Byakuya won't lose to rose. Roses sonatas take half as long as a full kido chant, that makes them predictable. Rose used one example of sonido and that's good but byakuya has superb speed feats.

imo byakuya is better off using a sealed sword than his shikai so for scenario 1 I wouldnt even include byakuyas shikai, just sword and speed. that said I think the whip will be to slow to catch him and like I said the sonatas take to long.

scenario 2 is definitely byakuya. masks can't compete with bankais, they only compliment.

and enough about rose being older, that never matters.

igotthegoods
December 11, 2010, 09:27 PM
Reminder: This thread's topic is Byakuya vs. Rose. Please stick to topic and keep personal insults out of the discussion. I would rather keep this thread open and not have to hand out infractions. Thanks~