PDA

View Full Version : Team Aizen's Elites vs SS



En Yang Ji
December 04, 2010, 09:50 PM
Rules and Conditions:

1. The battle takes place in FKT
2. Aizen's elites contains WW, Starrk, Ulquiorra, Gin, and Tousen
3. SS doesn't have Yama
4. All characters can use what they've shown. Tousen can only use his hollow powers
5. Everyone is blood-lusted


I think Aizen's elites would win. Starrk could probably take on Shunsui and Ukitake, if their just using shikai. WW and Gin can take on anyone. Ulquiorra and Tousen have a lot of speed and power, as well as high speed regeneration.

Waking_Dreamer
December 04, 2010, 10:12 PM
Well I'll have to think a bit more about it considering the sheer number of players involved, but for now since SS have the numbers they will eventually win - especially since Soifon and Hitsugaya should have no problem setting up their more powerful Bankai attacks.

Random101
December 04, 2010, 10:17 PM
Yeah, massive match ups like this are still incredibly hard to tell anything without guidelines. Virtually anyone can fight anyone and who wins is based on too many factors to easily call. You basically assume who fights who and then base who would win on that.

That being said, Ulquiorra's literally boned against Ukitake, all his attacks are energy based and getting hit with his own lance is going to wreck his day. Tousen is virtually destroyed by Soifon in his uber bug state, and Wonderwiess is so variable that he could literally go from going toe to toe with Unohana to getting WTFPWNT by Komamura.

And I haven't even gone into the most versatile and highest defensive force of the group yet, Byakuya and Hitsugaya. Both of which could potentially take Gin with much less difficulty than Ichigo was having, which in itself wasn't much, and whom together would destroy him.

Which is still not all of them. Outnumbered, out gunned, yeah, the elites don't have much of a chance if the matchups play right. Needs Barragon till SS is really boned. That or Gin has to be able to get some really good sneak attacks in to tip things into their favor.

ninjabot
December 04, 2010, 11:04 PM
I think Aizen's elites would win. Starrk could probably take on Shunsui and Ukitake, if their just using shikai.


He most certainly could not. Starrk has no attacks in his repertoire that can overcome Ukitake's defense (Ukitake even tells him that he'd still catch all 1000 cero if he opted to shoot that many).

SS takes the win thanks to greater numbers. Everyone on SS's side splits up into groups of 2 or 3 to take on each of the enemy:

Ukitake vs. Stark (he need only keep him from aiming cero at everyone else. Since he won't touch him, he just holds him off until the other battles are finished)

Byakuya and Hitsugaya vs Gin (as if Byakuya needed the help...lol)

Soi Fon and Komamura vs Tousen (instant regeneration won't save him from a two-hit auto kill)

Mayuri, Kenpachi, and Unohana vs WW (retard doesn't know not to breath the pretty purple smoke, lmao. Kenpachi gets his attention, Mayuri mass-poisons the area, Unohana heals Kenpachi.)

Shunsui vs. Ulquiorra (once Ulq goes Segunda Etappa, the only ones capable of keeping up with him and injuring him would be the senior captains. Shunsui's proven himself against Starrk).

Throw a few VC's in there to act as fodder to set up attacks too. Matsumoto's Haineko makes a good smokescreen, Renji's Bankai could probably block Gin's Kamishininoyari or draw attention with the baboon bone cannon.

Omiem
December 04, 2010, 11:37 PM
He most certainly could not. Starrk has no attacks in his repertoire that can overcome Ukitake's defense (Ukitake even tells him that he'd still catch all 1000 cero if he opted to shoot that many).

Ukitake vs. Stark (he need only keep him from aiming cero at everyone else. Since he won't touch him, he just holds him off until the other battles are finished)
Your forgetting Starrk's wolves.

ninjabot
December 04, 2010, 11:45 PM
^That are also energy based, whether they're Cero or not. If it's energy based, it's not getting past Sogyo no Kotowari.

Unless he can lure him to absorb from one direction while being struck from behind by those wolves. But then there's nothing stopping Ukitake from absorbing one, then shunpoing away from the others. He may even be capable of absorbing multiple wolves by waving SNK in the path of multiple wolves/Cero.

As for those wolves leaving Ukitake to attack everyone else far out to handle their own fights... they're on their own, lol.

Omiem
December 05, 2010, 12:03 AM
The wolves aren't energy based. They're suppose to be pieces of Starrk's soul. If your talking about Ukitake absorbing the explosions themselves, then I can see that as a plausible tactic. But I highly doubt his shikai can absorb souls, unless there's something we don't know about regarding his shikai ability.

ninjabot
December 05, 2010, 12:47 AM
But they ARE energy based. That's why they were mistaken t be Cero by Love. I could understand if they were made of flesh or made of stone or water. That's a whole 'nother story, and Ukitake hasn't shown an ability to absorb solid matter... but those wolves are pieces of Starrk's soul manifested as energy.

Omiem
December 05, 2010, 01:07 AM
Love was referring to the explosions as Ceros. I'm not talking about that. I'm talking about the wolves themselves. Even if for some odd reason that Ukitake can absorb those wolves, what's he gonna do then? Fling it back at Starrk, lol?
Remember that Starrk controls those wolves, which means he can detonate them whenever he pleases. So when Ukitake absorbs them, he's not gonna return back the fire power since they are still under Starrk's control. His only chance is to absorb the explosions, which isn't really the best idea in my opinion.

El Samurai Guapo
December 05, 2010, 02:20 AM
Love was referring to the explosions as Ceros. I'm not talking about that. I'm talking about the wolves themselves. Even if for some odd reason that Ukitake can absorb those wolves, what's he gonna do then? Fling it back at Starrk, lol?
Remember that Starrk controls those wolves, which means he can detonate them whenever he pleases. So when Ukitake absorbs them, he's not gonna return back the fire power since they are still under Starrk's control. His only chance is to absorb the explosions, which isn't really the best idea in my opinion.

Not to mention he can only absorb things through the tip of one of his swords. What's he going to do if the wolves suddenly come out of the ground and bite his ankle like the did to Love?

En Yang Ji
December 05, 2010, 02:23 AM
Starrk can take on both shikai Ukitake and Shunsui. Shunsui was about to go bankai because his shikai wasn't enough and Starrk is right. There likely is a limit to how much Ukitake can absorb, because it takes time for Ukitake to absorb something. By the time he would absorb 1 cero the other 99 would hit him. Same principle with the wolves.

WW is even stronger than Starrk and when he's in ressurection form, I doubt anyone from SS can handle him. He has strength and a hierro that can block Yama's sword. He's fast enough to speed blitz Yama and he has a lot of power. I doubt anyone of SS could keep up. Even if they could, I doubt could really keep up. Just barely following him with their eyes. Also who could break his hierro? If his hierro was bypassed would much damage be done to him in his resurrection form? Than he has high speed regeneration.

Ulquiorra can possibly oneshot anybody he faces with Lanza.

Gin could one shot anyone who doesn't know just how fast his bankai is. Tousen could take on Komumura or Kenpachi with his speed and strength.


I changed the rules so everyone is blood-lusted, so WW will use his resurrection and go for the kill quickly.

BaddAzzKenpachi74
December 05, 2010, 12:52 PM
ki0[/B];2205261][QUOTE]Starrk can take on both shikai Ukitake and Shunsui.
if i'm not mistaken didn't Shunsui himself beat Stark with just his shikai?
by that fact it should obviously go without saying that your theory is pretty flawed


WW is even stronger than Starrk and when he's in ressurection form, I doubt anyone from SS can handle him. He has strength and a hierro that can block Yama's sword. He's fast enough to speed blitz Yama and he has a lot of power. I doubt anyone of SS could keep up. Even if they could, I doubt could really keep up. Just barely following him with their eyes. Also who could break his hierro? If his hierro was bypassed would much damage be done to him in his resurrection form? Than he has high speed regeneration.
excuss me but what?
where was it stated or proven that he is Stronger then Stark?
nowhere as far as i can see.
and his Hierro is FAR from impressive considering the fact that Yamma pwned him BARE HANDED.
i'm willing to gurantee that Kenpachi useing Kendo could pull of the same effect.




Ulquiorra can possibly oneshot anybody he faces with Lanza.
thats a brash statement wouldn't you say?
he was only the 4th espada and he was 4th for a reason IMO.
i happen to be 1 of the people who believes that the Segunda didn't turn him godlike.
his only feats was pwning a Weak Ichigo who only barely managed to be the 6th Espada Grimmjow so in no way had Ulquarra proven that he can 1 shot anybody from SS especially considering the fact he can't even aim the dam thing right.!:D


Gin could one shot anyone who doesn't know just how fast his bankai is.
we'll considering that Ichigo was able to dodge it i'm willing to bet that very fast Captains like Soifon,Byakuya and Shunsui can immediately adjust and dodge it aswell.


Tousen could take on Komumura or Kenpachi with his speed and strength.
last i checked Tousen got pwned by Kenpachi with is eye patch on and no Kendo so saying he can pwn Kenpachi AND komumara at this point just because he has a resurrecion is jumping the gun IMO.

face it dude no matter how you look at it this match is really in SS favor

En Yang Ji
December 05, 2010, 01:36 PM
if i'm not mistaken didn't Shunsui himself beat Stark with just his shikai?
by that fact it should obviously go without saying that your theory is pretty flawed



Think about it. With Starrk's first use of his Cero Metrella, Shunsui was about to go bankai. Shunsui only beat Starrk when he wasn't using his best weapons. It's the same as Hitsugaya, Byakuya, or Komumura fighting with shikai and losing. It doesn't matter if they lose if they don't use their best weapons.


excuss me but what?
where was it stated or proven that he is Stronger then Stark?
nowhere as far as i can see.
and his Hierro is FAR from impressive considering the fact that Yamma pwned him BARE HANDED.
i'm willing to gurantee that Kenpachi useing Kendo could pull of the same effect.


Yama has an enormous amount of reiastu. Enough to overwhelm Aizen (who has double the reiastu of a captain) in a direct fight. Also Yama has been at the level of a CC for a 1000 years. Kenpachi can't do the same thing as WW. He can't catch Yama's blade with his hands.



thats a brash statement wouldn't you say?
he was only the 4th espada and he was 4th for a reason IMO.
i happen to be 1 of the people who believes that the Segunda didn't turn him godlike.
his only feats was pwning a Weak Ichigo who only barely managed to be the 6th Espada Grimmjow so in no way had Ulquarra proven that he can 1 shot anybody from SS especially considering the fact he can't even aim the dam thing right.!:D


The size of the explosion from lanza was gigantic. It wouldn't cause that type of explosion without the necessary power behind it. Also his cero was able to cancel out Perfect Hollow Form Ichigo's cero. Ulquiorra must be very powerful. Ishida even noticed that his reiastu was so thick that is can barely be called reiastu and likened it to an ocean.


we'll considering that Ichigo was able to dodge it i'm willing to bet that very fast Captains like Soifon,Byakuya and Shunsui can immediately adjust and dodge it aswell.


Ichigo didn't dodge it because of reflexes, he anticipated it and only because he knew what it does and he knew it's speed from Gin's demonstration. There's no reason to believe the other captains can react to it and without prior knowledge of what it does, the first captain Gin uses it on won't be able to anticipate it. Ichigo likely couldn't truly anticipate Gin's blade, just as a swordsman likely couldn't anticipate where a gunman's bullet would go. Was Gin giving his all to killing Ichigo, IMO it's unlikely.


ast i checked Tousen got pwned by Kenpachi with is eye patch on and no Kendo so saying he can pwn Kenpachi AND komumara at this point just because he has a resurrecion is jumping the gun IMO.

face it dude no matter how you look at it this match is really in SS favor


Tousen could have killed Kenpachi at the beginning if he aimed at the head. Tousen was playing around at the beginning, even going as far as mockingly explaining the ability of his bankai even though he knew Kenpachi couldn't hear him. Tousen was in disbelief that Kenpachi could do so well despite the,fact, Tousen has such a haxx bankai. Tousen is bloodlusted in this fight and his hollow mask increases his speed and power exponentially. With HSR and his resurrection as well he definitely could take on either of them. Neither Kenpachi or Komumura are likely take advantage of Tousen's weakness while he's in resurrection. Both Tousen and Kenpachi are straight up fighters. Tousen could one shot Komumura, than take on Kenpachi.

Primecut
December 05, 2010, 06:58 PM
Forgive me for being blunt but what is stopping Lord Aizen from soloing the enemy team himself? He already destroyed the SS by himself without even using a bankai. Every time the man has swung his sword a captain has fell. That's canon fact.

En Yang Ji
December 05, 2010, 07:03 PM
I didn't put Aizen on the elites team because it would be unfair.

ninjabot
December 05, 2010, 07:42 PM
Love was referring to the explosions as Ceros. I'm not talking about that. I'm talking about the wolves themselves. Even if for some odd reason that Ukitake can absorb those wolves, what's he gonna do then? Fling it back at Starrk, lol?
Remember that Starrk controls those wolves, which means he can detonate them whenever he pleases. So when Ukitake absorbs them, he's not gonna return back the fire power since they are still under Starrk's control. His only chance is to absorb the explosions, which isn't really the best idea in my opinion.



You may not have noticed, but the tip of Sogyo no Kotowari is on Ukitake's sword. The sword that he can move? Think of it as a vacuum cleaner designed for energy. He absorbs intantaneously and alters the speed at which the attack is "flung" back. So yes, that's exactly what Ukitak's gonna do. Swing his sword, cutting down wolf after wolf, making them disappear instantly and absorbing each wolf that approaches before using the energy to fire back a concentrated multi-wolf beam at Starrk. If they weren't energy it'd be a different case... but they are. And thus, Starrk stands next to no chance against Ukitake. Unless he breaks into a TB fit and gets slower. I mean, before you go and doubt his speed:http://www.mangafox.com/manga/bleach/v42/c362/15.html That's like a dozen cero. He outran them before they could hit Shunsui, then absorbed every one before firing them back. Granted, they all came from one direction, but they were moving at a speed far greater than those wolves.



Not to mention he can only absorb things through the tip of one of his swords. What's he going to do if the wolves suddenly come out of the ground and bite his ankle like the did to Love?


Fortunately for Ukitake, the tip of is sword can change positions quite quickly (as quickly as he can swing his sword). If he's hit on the ankle he can swipe the wolf. Maybe before it blows up, maybe not. But he'd have to be on the ground for that to happen.

Takahashi
December 06, 2010, 12:46 AM
I thought the wolves were a part of his soul, does that necessarily imply energy? If that's true couldn't Ukitake absorb people as well considering that would be a "soul" too?

El Samurai Guapo
December 06, 2010, 01:31 AM
Difference is, unlike cero, the wolves seemed to be sentient; or at least remotely controlled by Starrk. Saying that Juushirou will possess them once he absorbs them is a huge stretch. They don't stop being pieces of Starrk's soul after Juushirou absorbs them, hence I highly doubt they can be turned.

ninjabot
December 06, 2010, 01:53 AM
The cero changed shape if not form (they were able to be absorbed and contained in such a small space, it's not illogical to believe Ukitake's zanpakuto shrunk them all), remained absorbed until Ukitake was finished absorbing all there were to absorb (meaning he was the one in control at that point lest the first cero would've fired off on it's own after being absorbed), and fired the combined Cero in one shot, after altering the speed of the attack to throw off Starrk.

Not to mention I saw no sentience in those wolves that would change anything. They're still energy. And I'm not saying he's gonna throw the wolves back out under his own control, I'm saying he's gonna do exactly what he did to those Cero: compress them into a beam and fire them.

En Yang Ji
December 06, 2010, 02:18 AM
Starrk could just fight Ukitake unreleased. Than it would be just another sword fight.

ninjabot
December 06, 2010, 02:34 AM
I don't recommend that. At all. Unreleased Starrk not only has nothing but his zanpakuto and basic cero, (which are definately absorbable), but since this is a bloodlusted fight, someone's DEFINATELY gonna off Lilinette before Starrk decides to release. Maybe not Ukitake, but SS has the numbers remember? Someone's gonna decide to finish her off if she's not there under Starrk's supervision the entire time.

Takahashi
December 06, 2010, 03:45 AM
@Takahashi: I'm not saying soul=energy. I'm saying, soul wolves that look like blue flames, move like blue flames, are mistaken for Cero because of their resemblance of energy, and are actual constructs made of something that isn't tangible (soul) are energy.

I'm still confused, regardless of what they look like, are mistaken for, and have a resemblance to, Stark says they're a part of his soul. That alone should mean they're just little pieces of Stark himself, since Ukitake has never been shown to absorb a soul, I'm not sure we can say with any real confidence that it's possible. Unless I'm just confusing what you mean when you call them energy.

Although, the whole concept blows my mind anyway, does Stark actually lose a part of himself by blowing up his soul in people's faces? I don't see how you could regenerate a piece of your soul.

Anyway, depending if you think it's possible or not, that alone determines whether it'll be an overwhelming victory for Ukitake.

En Yang Ji
December 06, 2010, 05:33 AM
Ukitake would lose. Starrk can send about 50 wolves from all directions at the same time

ninjabot
December 06, 2010, 09:10 AM
I'm still confused, regardless of what they look like, are mistaken for, and have a resemblance to, Stark says they're a part of his soul. That alone should mean they're just little pieces of Stark himself, since Ukitake has never been shown to absorb a soul, I'm not sure we can say with any real confidence that it's possible. Unless I'm just confusing what you mean when you call them energy.


That's the thing though: if they were simply pieces of him and not pieces of his soul they would look like regular wolves, with fur either the same color as his hair or the fur on his jacket. That's not the case: they're wraith-like masses of what looks like fire, which can be defined as an energy attack.

If I wanted to argue semantics (since that's what I'm getting in rebuttal: semantics) I could say "Ukitake's shikai is never defined in the manga as capable of only absorbing energy, Starrk clearly says 'attacks'. That means he can absorb the wolves no matter what."

But I'm not taking that stance because my "those wolves are totally energy" stance simply makes more sense.

@ki0: I disagree. Love nor Rose had an ability that turned the wolves completely useless, (which is why they got hit) nor have they shown speed comperable to what Ukitake has shown (outpacing, then absorbing dozens if not more Cero in an instant).

If he can absorb dozens of cero in the blink of an eye he can absorb 50 wolves (all far slower than the cero) with little more difficulty. Infact, this is all based on how much of a distance Starrk can keep between he and Ukitake. If he closes the distance, Starrk risks carpet bombing himself, and has to keep the wolves from exploding (which would give Ukitake that much more time to absorb them safely).

Starrk could continue shooting at Ukitake (all of which will be absorbed) as he approaches. So even if Ukitake can't put the finishing blow on Starrk, the fight is a stalemate until one of two things happens:

1: Ukitake has a TB fit and becomes slowr
2: Someone else finishes their fight and joins to help

exacta
December 06, 2010, 11:41 AM
I don't get why anyone thinks Ukitake can absorb anything other than ceros. All we've seen him do is absorb ceros, thats it, aside from him getting speedblitzed by WW. We probably have not been shown what his shikai can really do, just like with Shunsui at the beginning of his fight with Stark. He never said he could redirect all 1000 ceros either. Actually, he didn't say anything. He just made an expression that indicated he was about to shit his pants til Shunsui returned the favor and saved his ass.

I also don't get why almost all of the Espada are missing in this scenario. Most of them were enough to give at least one captain quite a bit of trouble. People severely underestimate the Espada and Tousen, just because they were defeated. They were BAD GUYS,its pretty much their job to get owned, and a good deal of their defeats had little to do with strength and more to do with strategy and taking advantage of certain opportunities.

I'd say the elites lose, since they're heavily outnumbered. With Barragan, Halibel and the rest, I'd give it to the elites.

En Yang Ji
December 06, 2010, 12:09 PM
Aizen isn't in this

ninjabot
December 06, 2010, 01:55 PM
I don't get why anyone thinks Ukitake can absorb anything other than ceros. All we've seen him do is absorb ceros, thats it, aside from him getting speedblitzed by WW. We probably have not been shown what his shikai can really do, just like with Shunsui at the beginning of his fight with Stark. He never said he could redirect all 1000 ceros either. Actually, he didn't say anything. He just made an expression that indicated he was about to shit his pants til Shunsui returned the favor and saved his ass.


Probably for the same reason some of us believe he can only absorb cero: because it's never defined in the manga what he can and can't absorb. It's just more logical to assume he can absorb energy attacks in general. It'd be flat out stupid if Ukitake could only absorb cero, because cero are likened to kidou, and both kidou and cero are energy attacks. And those wolves don't look like any wolf I've ever seen...save for ones made out of ENERGY. As for the rest, Ukitake wasn't in any position that made him look like he was in danger; he was using the same aloof look he had when he was impressed by the speed at which Starrk managed to dodge that cero he shot back. Ironically, the same look he had when he got speedblitzed by WW.

Omiem
December 06, 2010, 06:10 PM
Now. You claimed that Ukitake can't absorb the wolves. I explain that soul or not, they're energy. One point you missed. Then, you said if he can absorb them, what's he gonna do, fling them? And I said yes, with quotes around the word "flung", my reasoning being that Ukitake changes the speed of the blow as he absorbs it. The attack isn't Starrk's after it's absorbed: it's Ukitake's. That's also why I mentioned him absorbing multiple cero, because it proves that he has the control to keep the others inside of his zanpakuto, absorbing more and more attacks until he feels it's time to counter. Stark can't control something that's not apart of him anymore.
The nature of Starrk's wolves is entirely different from Ceros. Why? Because they literally are him.
http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-chapter-386-page-16.html
If Ukitake somehow manages to absorb a wolf, he would then have to actually turn that wolf's mind against Starrk. I agree that once Ukitake absorbs a Cero, the attack is then under his control. The difference between Ceros and wolves however is that Ceros don't have a will of their own.

You also said that he can only absorb the explosions and not the wolves themselves, so I showed you Ukitake's impressive speed so that you'd realize that he can intercept the wolves before they can explode, as those wolves don't move as fast as those cero... and are still energy.
Starrk can detonate his wolves whenever he pleases. So even if Ukitake is fast enough to intercept those wolves, Starrk can still make them explode before they are absorbed.

ninjabot
December 06, 2010, 09:06 PM
The nature of Starrk's wolves is entirely different from Ceros. Why? Because they literally are him.
http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-...6-page-16.html
If Ukitake somehow manages to absorb a wolf, he would then have to actually turn that wolf's mind against Starrk. I agree that once Ukitake absorbs a Cero, the attack is then under his control. The difference between Ceros and wolves however is that Ceros don't have a will of their own.


I doubt the wolves have sentience on a level that allows them to act independantly from Starrk. I was under the impression he was guiding them all the same way that Byakuya guides SKY. For one, they're parts of him as you said. Secondly, he decides when they explode. Certainly a being of a certain intelligence with the ability to self destruct would choose to explode when it wishes. They've no control over when that happens though.

In addition to all that, do you really think they'd stay in the same form after being absorbed? Especially if multiple wolves were absorbed into the same sword? They're probably not wolves anymore after that point, but a big blob of condensed soul. After WW absorbed Ryuujin Jakka's flames, Yama had no control over them, they just remained inside him, and blew up when WW could no longer contain them. When Hitsugaya froze Halibel's water, she couldn't manipulate it anymore. She had to melt the ice again before she had any control over it.

Now, neither of these attacks are made of bits of their souls, but still: if the wolves are indeed energy as they appear to be, then it doesn't matter, because when Ukitake absorbs energy, it's his to collect, speed up, slow down, or fling back. Same principle.



Starrk can detonate his wolves whenever he pleases. So even if Ukitake is fast enough to intercept those wolves, Starrk can still make them explode before they are absorbed.


Well, I don't have the databook on me, so I'm taking your word on it that he can detonate them when he wants (despite the wiki saying that they detonate on contact). Still, if he could detonate them when he wants, then that makes my "Stick to Starrk" strategy even mor sound. If he keeps the fight a close range one then the wolves can't explode unless Starrk wishes to blow himself up (and before implying he can't be hurt by his own wolves, remember that he dodged the cero tht was shot back at him. That was his own reiatsu just as the wolves are his own soul).

Omiem
December 06, 2010, 11:56 PM
I doubt the wolves have sentience on a level that allows them to act independantly from Starrk. I was under the impression he was guiding them all the same way that Byakuya guides SKY. For one, they're parts of him as you said. Secondly, he decides when they explode. Certainly a being of a certain intelligence with the ability to self destruct would choose to explode when it wishes. They've no control over when that happens though.
I never said that the wolves acted independently from Starrk. I'm saying that the wolves are Starrk. He even claims so himself in this bottom panel in case you missed it.
http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-chapter-386-page-16.html
If Ukitake somehow absorbs those wolves, then wouldn't he be absorbing Starrk and Lilynette themselves?

In addition to all that, do you really think they'd stay in the same form after being absorbed? Especially if multiple wolves were absorbed into the same sword? They're probably not wolves anymore after that point, but a big blob of condensed soul. After WW absorbed Ryuujin Jakka's flames, Yama had no control over them, they just remained inside him, and blew up when WW could no longer contain them. When Hitsugaya froze Halibel's water, she couldn't manipulate it anymore. She had to melt the ice again before she had any control over it.

Now, neither of these attacks are made of bits of their souls, but still: if the wolves are indeed energy as they appear to be, then it doesn't matter, because when Ukitake absorbs energy, it's his to collect, speed up, slow down, or fling back. Same principle.
So your assuming Ukitake's shikai can extract the energy from Starrk's wolves once they are absorbed, and then convert that energy into an attack with at least the same level of Starrk's explosions, correct?
If this is what your implying, then you have to consider that Ukitake is absorbing a living soul into his shikai. Attacks like flames and cero don't have a will of their own, and I agree that Ukitake can easily control them. Wolves however are a different story, because even if they do get turned into a blob of condensed soul, nothing changes the fact that they still have a will of their own. So what's really stopping Starrk from turning his wolves into intangible souls and returning them back to him even if they do get capture? I don't believe it's ever stated that Ukitake can seal souls from escaping his shikai.

Well, I don't have the databook on me, so I'm taking your word on it that he can detonate them when he wants (despite the wiki saying that they detonate on contact). Still, if he could detonate them when he wants, then that makes my "Stick to Starrk" strategy even mor sound. If he keeps the fight a close range one then the wolves can't explode unless Starrk wishes to blow himself up (and before implying he can't be hurt by his own wolves, remember that he dodged the cero tht was shot back at him. That was his own reiatsu just as the wolves are his own soul).
Well the wolves will give Ukitake a hard time sticking close to Starrk in the first place, but if he does manage to get through, then I can see him utilizing an opening. Starrk however will have his spiritual swords as a defense.

conn-man
December 07, 2010, 12:13 AM
Alright so its 9 vs 5. Seems like you picked the 'elites' based on the idea that most of them would need a two vs one scenario.

For starters, almost any other captain who is partered with ukitake could have a chance of beating stark. uki shun combo is a sure thing.

kenpachi can prob fight wonderweiss while standing a good chance.

pit byakuya or soifon against gin and its a toss up.

Just remembered SS gets unohana, big bonus.

hitsu and koma can choose and partner the want and its a win.

forgot ulquiorra, give him to mayuri and I say it would be interesting. if mayuri loses someone with some time steps in.

so I say SS gets it but also gets a wild ride.

ninjabot
December 07, 2010, 01:04 AM
I never said that the wolves acted independently from Starrk. I'm saying that the wolves are Starrk. He even claims so himself in this bottom panel in case you missed it.
http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-...6-page-16.html
If Ukitake somehow absorbs those wolves, then wouldn't he be absorbing Starrk and Lilynette themselves?


You didn't say they were sentient? That's self aware, as in capable of independent thought and possibly movement. And yes, he would be absorbing Starrk and Lilinette themselves... in an energy form. If Halibel had turned into water, and Hitsugaya froze her, she'd be just that: ice. Because she's in a form that's weak against Hitsugaya's power. No melting to get out, she'd be done. If those wolves are indeed energy, their minds wouldn't really matter as those minds would'nt stop them from being controlled by SNK after absorbtion. Controlled as in fired out as a beam or held captive inside of SNK.



So your assuming Ukitake's shikai can extract the energy from Starrk's wolves once they are absorbed, and then convert that energy into an attack with at least the same level of Starrk's explosions, correct?
If this is what your implying, then you have to consider that Ukitake is absorbing a living soul into his shikai. Attacks like flames and cero don't have a will of their own, and I agree that Ukitake can easily control them. Wolves however are a different story, because even if they do get turned into a blob of condensed soul, nothing changes the fact that they still have a will of their own. So what's really stopping Starrk from turning his wolves into intangible souls and returning them back into him even if they do get capture? I don't believe it's ever stated that Ukitake can seal souls from escaping his shikai.


No... I'm not saying he's taking energy OUT of the wolves. I'm saying the wolves ARE energy, but in the shape of wolves. And that the destructive power of the beam fired back is directly proportionate to just how many wolves were absorbed. Once they're absorbed they're no longer wolves, just a mass of amorphous energy inside of SNK. And that this energy will be shot back. As for the whole soul matter of it, a shinigami's power is spirit pressure.



Well the wolves will give Ukitake a hard time sticking close to Starrk in the first place, but if he does manage to get through, then I can see him utilizing an opening. Starrk however will have his spiritual swords as a defense.


Those swords seem to be made of the exact same soul/energy as the wolves. Meaning that blocking with that sword guarantees Ukitake's gonna render him defenseless quickly enough to get in a blow or two if he manages to force Starrk into a defensive position.

En Yang Ji
December 07, 2010, 01:22 AM
Alright so its 9 vs 5. Seems like you picked the 'elites' based on the idea that most of them would need a two vs one scenario.

For starters, almost any other captain who is partered with ukitake could have a chance of beating stark. uki shun combo is a sure thing.

kenpachi can prob fight wonderweiss while standing a good chance.

pit byakuya or soifon against gin and its a toss up.

Just remembered SS gets unohana, big bonus.

hitsu and koma can choose and partner the want and its a win.

forgot ulquiorra, give him to mayuri and I say it would be interesting. if mayuri loses someone with some time steps in.

so I say SS gets it but also gets a wild ride.

- Shunsui and Ukitake have no answer for Starrk's strongest weapons. Ukitake likely can't absorb all of Starrk's ceros, because it takes time to absorb them. By the time he absorbs 10 the other 90 would hit him. The wolves could just surround Ukitake and get him from the back. He can't absorb what he can't reach. He can't absorb all the wolves if their coming from every direction.

- IMO Kenpachi would get OHKO. Kenpachi couldn't react to Starrk's speed. WW was able to speed blitz Yama. He also has enough power to stop Yama's blade with his hands.

- Gin's biggest advantage is the lack of prior knowledge of his bankai's ability. If they can't react to it and don't have prior knowledge their not going to be able to dodge it. Even if they do know it's ability it still would be extremely hard to beat him.

- Ulquiorra would speed blitz Mayuri before he can do anything.

Takahashi
December 07, 2010, 01:32 AM
- Shunsui and Ukitake have no answer for Starrk's strongest weapons. Ukitake likely can't absorb all of Starrk's ceros, because it takes time to absorb them. By the time he absorbs 10 the other 90 would hit him. The wolves could just surround Ukitake and get him from the back. He can't absorb what he can't reach. He can't absorb all the wolves if their coming from every direction.

Well, Ninjabot is really pushing the idea that he can absorb the wolves, and it wouldn't surprise me if he could absorb the 1000 ceros as well, if it's possible to hold 1000 in that tiny gun, why not a sword?


- IMO Kenpachi would get OHKO. Kenpachi couldn't react to Starrk's speed. WW was able to speed blitz Yama. He also has enough power to stop Yama's blade with his hands.

OHKO, I think that's a stretch, although I don't think he'd help all that much in the fight, his tanking is incredible.


- Ulquiorra would speed blitz Mayuri before he can do anything.

Then Mayuri would reveal that Ulquiorra is poisoned as he liquefies and floats away :amuse

ninjabot
December 07, 2010, 01:48 AM
Yeah, I like th matches I set up better. Kenpachi and Unohana are fodder to keep WW busy till Mayuri poisons him. Shunsui vs. Ulqiorra. Byakuya and Hitsugaya vs. Gin.

@Takahashi: If it looks like a duck, quacks like a duck, and waddles like a duck...

...it's an energy wolf.

En Yang Ji
December 07, 2010, 01:51 AM
Yeah, I like th matches I set up better. Kenpachi and Unohana are fodder to keep WW busy till Mayuri poisons him. Shunsui vs. Ulqiorra. Byakuya and Hitsugaya vs. Gin.

@Takahashi: If it looks like a duck, quacks like a duck, and waddles like a duck...

...it's an energy wolf.

Mayuri risks poisoning his teammates if he uses his poison. It goes in all directions and reaches very far.

Random101
December 07, 2010, 01:52 AM
He has antidotes, hardly an issue. Recall he went and healed Renji and Ishida too with it.

Granted he might be an ass about it, but given he saved Ishida's life and he hates him, hardly that big a deal.

Takahashi
December 07, 2010, 01:55 AM
Mayuri risks poisoning his teammates if he uses his poison. It goes in all directions and reaches very far.

Isn't that just proof to "Mayuri kills everyone"?

Which would technically be a win for SS :amuse

ninjabot
December 07, 2010, 01:57 AM
@ki0:Aha! That's why I posted in my first post in this thread that Unohana stays by to heal those who've been poisoned. She and Kenpachi lure WW as he fires off some poison. Whether there are more allies around when that happens doesn't mean much as Mayuri has the antidote and Unohana can heal.

En Yang Ji
December 07, 2010, 02:02 AM
@ki0:Aha! That's why I posted in my first post in this thread that Unohana stays by to heal those who've been poisoned.

lol...good point! SS might win after all.

I honestly believe the elites could beat them before they die from poisoning though.


EDIT: It's unlikely Unohana can heal Mayuri's poison. Knowing Mayuri he would make his poison so where Unohana can't heal it.

Jackk
December 07, 2010, 02:19 AM
EDIT: It's unlikely Unohana can heal Mayuri's poison. Knowing Mayuri he would make his poison so where Unohana can't heal it.

Perhaps, but Mayuri could also give Unohana the antidote so that she can use it on those who have been poisoned lol

Maybe even Nemu may have the antidote and she could give it to people too. She did have a whole bottle with her that she gave to ishida back in SS.

http://www.mangareader.net/94-580-9/bleach/chapter-126.html

Omiem
December 07, 2010, 06:09 PM
You didn't say they were sentient? That's self aware, as in capable of independent thought and possibly movement. And yes, he would be absorbing Starrk and Lilinette themselves... in an energy form. If Halibel had turned into water, and Hitsugaya froze her, she'd be just that: ice. Because she's in a form that's weak against Hitsugaya's power. No melting to get out, she'd be done. If those wolves are indeed energy, their minds wouldn't really matter as those minds would'nt stop them from being controlled by SNK after absorbtion. Controlled as in fired out as a beam or held captive inside of SNK.

No... I'm not saying he's taking energy OUT of the wolves. I'm saying the wolves ARE energy, but in the shape of wolves. And that the destructive power of the beam fired back is directly proportionate to just how many wolves were absorbed. Once they're absorbed they're no longer wolves, just a mass of amorphous energy inside of SNK. And that this energy will be shot back. As for the whole soul matter of it, a shinigami's power is spirit pressure.
I know that the wolves are energy, but they are only flames with no power. So I was under the impression that you were telling me Ukitake would have to extract the explosive energy within each wolf.

Yes, Starrk's wolves are driven by reiatsu, but I believe his soul itself isn't. If Starrk can convert his wolves back into original souls, then he can escape Sogyo no Kotowari or render its ability useless. Better yet, he can have his wolves explode inside of Sogyo no Kotowari. Remember that Ukitake hasn't shown the ability to subject the will of a soul to his own liking. So no matter what Ukitake does with the energy he absorbs, nothing is stopping Starrk from detonating those wolves. Even if they do become a blob of condensed energy.

I can see a scenario similar to how Ryujin Jakka exploded out of WW.

Those swords seem to be made of the exact same soul/energy as the wolves. Meaning that blocking with that sword guarantees Ukitake's gonna render him defenseless quickly enough to get in a blow or two if he manages to force Starrk into a defensive position.
I don't know about that. Those swords seem to be in the form of solid matter seeing how Shunsui was cut, so I'm kind of skeptical.

freshseth83
December 08, 2010, 06:53 AM
Starrk said that he splits his soul, then turns them into 'weapons'. he didn't say that they were anything different. and attacks are melee or energy (kido) based with some elemental. Surely Juushiro can absorb kido based attacks, and possibly elemental (some of Yama's fire?)?

I don't see how people still keep saying Shunsui was about to go bankai, he just wanted Starrk to release and use all his power to he could gauge what he was up against. Taking Shunsui and his sword's mood out of play and I don't see a problem with him taking down any of Aizen's 'elite' especially considering he still has a bankai we haven't seen.

Raizen
December 08, 2010, 10:32 PM
I find it amusing how people read the manga and yet they don't actually read it. Obviously ceros are not the only thing ukitake's zanpaktou can reflect. That is ridiculous. It should be inferred he can reflect any form of energy based attacks, that would include starks wolves.

And where is this idea that starks can handle both shunsui and ukitake? Shunsui alone was stronger than starks once his sword got in the mood.

Starks vs shunsui- we already saw the outcome of that battle.
WW vs Kenpachi (maybe add in koma)- WW is very strong. But so is kenpachi.
Hitsu or byakuya would be able to take ulqui down.
Gin soifon's speed would allow her to bypass to gin. Actually, let hitsu take gin on. And the fight could go either way.
Soifon vs tousen. soifon is quick enough to dodge tousen and then screw him up q/ suzemebachi. Or byakuya can take him out w/ bankai.

Unohana is implied to be a powerhouse. So if needed, she can take on anyone from the opposing side. But since I won't speculate her strengths, she can stand and prepare tea after SS wins.
Kurosotchi may not be a physical fighter, but given the opportune time, he would attack with his shikai and paralyze his opponents

En Yang Ji
December 11, 2010, 01:02 AM
I find it amusing how people read the manga and yet they don't actually read it. Obviously ceros are not the only thing ukitake's zanpaktou can reflect. That is ridiculous. It should be inferred he can reflect any form of energy based attacks, that would include starks wolves.

And where is this idea that starks can handle both shunsui and ukitake? Shunsui alone was stronger than starks once his sword got in the mood.

Starks vs shunsui- we already saw the outcome of that battle.
WW vs Kenpachi (maybe add in koma)- WW is very strong. But so is kenpachi.
Hitsu or byakuya would be able to take ulqui down.
Gin soifon's speed would allow her to bypass to gin. Actually, let hitsu take gin on. And the fight could go either way.
Soifon vs tousen. soifon is quick enough to dodge tousen and then screw him up q/ suzemebachi. Or byakuya can take him out w/ bankai.

Unohana is implied to be a powerhouse. So if needed, she can take on anyone from the opposing side. But since I won't speculate her strengths, she can stand and prepare tea after SS wins.
Kurosotchi may not be a physical fighter, but given the opportune time, he would attack with his shikai and paralyze his opponents

Shunsui win was circumstantial. Just because Shunsui won it doesn't mean he would win again or that he's stronger. Also Shunsui's sword having moods is a weakness of his.

Kenpachi can't keep up with Yama's speed or speed blitz Yama like WW. I doubt he can react to WW's speed.

Soi Fong could possibly take out either of them, but the same could be said for them.

conn-man
December 11, 2010, 02:21 AM
How about this.

Hitsu and soifon take WW
Koma and ken(twin tanks) plow through to beat stark
Ukitake and shunsui beat ulquiorra easy, redirect a lanzla, that would be awesome
Mayuri fights gin, body full of fake organs and regenerateable limbs, good luck poisoning that gin.
Byakuya fight tousen. Senkei all the way to beat that big bug.

En Yang Ji
December 11, 2010, 03:55 AM
How about this.

Hitsu and soifon take WW
Koma and ken(twin tanks) plow through to beat stark
Ukitake and shunsui beat ulquiorra easy, redirect a lanzla, that would be awesome
Mayuri fights gin, body full of fake organs and regenerateable limbs, good luck poisoning that gin.
Byakuya fight tousen. Senkei all the way to beat that big bug.

- I don't think Soi Fong can easily speed blitz someone of WW's level, just like no one believes she could do that to Yama. Hitsu likely can't react to WW's speed and he doesn't have enough reiastu to do anything to WW. Soi Fong probably can't pierce WW strong hierro with her small zanpakatou.

- Koma and Kenpachi may be tanks, but I don't think that would be enough. they would just be attacked until they feel. Starrk could just speed blitz Kenpachi.

- Gin's poison erodes the body. Aizen was able to stop the erosion because of the HG. In a straight Gin has better combat skills.

- Byakuya probably would beat Tousen.

Primecut
December 11, 2010, 05:22 AM
Gin could definitely take out several captains because they havent shown the reaction peed necessary to evade near Mach 500 sword strikes. Heck, some of them havent even been shown to dodge Mach 1 attacks. Komamaru couldnt even dodge a sound based attack if I recall correctly. Gin is going to have a field day with such opponents. The mid level gatekeeper captain will put up a respectable show due to his durability but he'll be overwhelmed as his weak teammates are picked off at 500 times the speed of sound. I have a win for the elites 9 out of 10 of the fights.

conn-man
December 11, 2010, 10:42 AM
- I don't think Soi Fong can easily speed blitz someone of WW's level, just like no one believes she could do that to Yama. Hitsu likely can't react to WW's speed and he doesn't have enough reiastu to do anything to WW. Soi Fong probably can't pierce WW strong hierro with her small zanpakatou.

- Koma and Kenpachi may be tanks, but I don't think that would be enough. they would just be attacked until they feel. Starrk could just speed blitz Kenpachi.

- Gin's poison erodes the body. Aizen was able to stop the erosion because of the HG. In a straight Gin has better combat skills.

- Byakuya probably would beat Tousen.

Well if hitsu could keep WW still for a second with ice soifon could two hit.

Also mayuri is the master of poison so maybe he could counter gin. And gin isn't much of a shunpoer so mayuris bankai poison would be dangerous.

What's wrong with koma and ken, they're better tanks than love and rose.

One more fun idea is that ukitake catches a lanzla and sends it flying at WW.

Random101
December 11, 2010, 12:27 PM
Aizen was able to stop the erosion because of the HG.
What? Since when did the orb stop the erosion? It seemed to stop of it's own volition after it decayed a certain amount, so I'd hardly say the orb did it, particularly since that was prior to it suddenly showing it still had it's connection to him after being removed. That suggests that, much like acid, it decays a certain amount before effectively nulling itself.

Granted though it decays so much that any chest remotely near the torso is a kill shot, the head doubly so, but it's not Barragon's one hit and everything's gunna go type deal.

Raizen
December 13, 2010, 09:16 PM
Shunsui win was circumstantial. Just because Shunsui won it doesn't mean he would win again or that he's stronger. Also Shunsui's sword having moods is a weakness of his.

Kenpachi can't keep up with Yama's speed or speed blitz Yama like WW. I doubt he can react to WW's speed.

Soi Fong could possibly take out either of them, but the same could be said for them.
1. Yes, but unlike your hypothetical case, i actually have manga evidence to back up his win so u can't deny that. The whole mood thing was only a plot device to get shunsui out of the way to showcase the vizards a bit. Assuming his sword won't be in the mood in this fantasy match-up is ridiculous because it puts too many variables into the fight

2. WW was never able to keep up with yama in straight speed, he got owned. And he never speed blitzed yama. Yama didn't even pay attention to him, his focus was on aizen. And ken's reaction is quite spectacular

3. Yea, but soifon got backup if she needs it

En Yang Ji
December 13, 2010, 09:29 PM
1. Yes, but unlike your hypothetical case, i actually have manga evidence to back up his win so u can't deny that. The whole mood thing was only a plot device to get shunsui out of the way to showcase the vizards a bit. Assuming his sword won't be in the mood in this fantasy match-up is ridiculous because it puts too many variables into the fight

2. WW was never able to keep up with yama in straight speed, he got owned. And he never speed blitzed yama. Yama didn't even pay attention to him, his focus was on aizen. And ken's reaction is quite spectacular

3. Yea, but soifon got backup if she needs it

1. Where does that assumption the mood thing won't happen again come from? The way Shunsui talked it doesn't sound like it's the first time it happened. Even if, Shunsui didn't have to deal with the mood problem he would still probably lose.

WW was holding his own against Yama for a good while, before Yama OHKO'd him. Kenpachi nor Koma could do as well as WW did against Yama.

WW was knocked a huge distance away. When Yama was inches away from Aizen's face, WW was able to sonido next to him in an instant, that far away, and hit him.

Raizen
December 13, 2010, 09:59 PM
1. Where does that assumption the mood thing won't happen again come from? The way Shunsui talked it doesn't sound like it's the first time it happened. Even if, Shunsui didn't have to deal with the mood problem he would still probably lose.

WW was holding his own against Yama for a good while, before Yama OHKO'd him. Kenpachi nor Koma could do as well as WW did against Yama.

WW was knocked a huge distance away. When Yama was inches away from Aizen's face, WW was able to sonido next to him in an instant, that far away, and hit him.
1. Yea, this is why i don't like responding to you. He won the moment his sword worked the way it is suppose to. That is FACT. How can u say that he would still lose if the mood was not a factor? starks lost the moment shunsui and his sword was in sync. Whether you like it or not, shunsui is superior to starks. And i am one of those who believe the whole mood thing will never come into play again

2. He didn't hold his own or anything. He got utterly pwned in every single way. ama was toying with him. Yama gave him a hit then went off after aizen. That was the only way WW survived as long as he did

3. Again, Yamas attention was on aizen. And he only moved quick enough to block the hit for aizen, he didn't hit yama away

Omiem
December 13, 2010, 10:13 PM
In general, I'd say Soul Society wins due to the superior numbers. Their best match ups would be like this in my opinion.

Starrk vs Shunsui/Ukitake-Seeing how Shunsui and Ukitake already fought against Starrk, they shouldn't fair too badly doing it again.

Ulquiorra vs Mayuri-Since this is in FKT, I'm assuming Mayuri's bankai can fly DBZ style. Without knowledge, Ulquiorra is most likely gonna be effected by the poison, and regeneration won't save him. This is probably gonna be a double KO, but it's a guarantee death for Ulquiorra nonetheless.

Gin vs Byakuya/Hitsugaya-Byakuya has the speed and versatility, while Hitsugaya has the reaction skills and his barrage of ice attacks. Combine them both, and they should be able to take out Gin.

Tousen vs Kenpachi/Komamura-Cricket Tousen's lack of awareness isn't gonna help him in a 2 vs 1 situation seeing how easily he got sneaked behind by a VC.

WW vs Soifon-Her clones will confuse WW's eyes, which should create an opening for a 2 hit kill. She would need shunko however to pierce his Hierro.

Unohona will be ready to heal anyone who's injured of course.

En Yang Ji
December 13, 2010, 10:13 PM
1. Yea, this is why i don't like responding to you. He won the moment his sword worked the way it is suppose to. That is FACT. How can u say that he would still lose if the mood was not a factor? starks lost the moment shunsui and his sword was in sync. Whether you like it or not, shunsui is superior to starks. And i am one of those who believe the whole mood thing will never come into play again

2. He didn't hold his own or anything. He got utterly pwned in every single way. ama was toying with him. Yama gave him a hit then went off after aizen. That was the only way WW survived as long as he did

3. Again, Yamas attention was on aizen. And he only moved quick enough to block the hit for aizen, he didn't hit yama away

1. Yes he did, but there's another more important detail. Starrk wasn't using his strongest weapons. Whether or not Shunsui sword was in the mood he would still had no answer for Starrks strongest techniques. That's why I say he would lose regardless.

2. Yama wasn't toying with WW. He even said he wasn't holding back here: http://mangahelpers.com/t/cnet128/releases/20433

3. WW knocked Yama back and Yama's right arm was bleeding: http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-chapter-407-page-9.html, http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-chapter-407-page-10.html

Raizen
December 13, 2010, 10:38 PM
1. Yes he did, but there's another more important detail. Starrk wasn't using his strongest weapons. Whether or not Shunsui sword was in the mood he would still had no answer for Starrks strongest techniques. That's why I say he would lose regardless.

2. Yama wasn't toying with WW. He even said he wasn't holding back here: http://mangahelpers.com/t/cnet128/releases/20433

3. WW knocked Yama back and Yama's right arm was bleeding: http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-chapter-407-page-9.html, http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-chapter-407-page-10.html
1. No. u ASSUME that shunsui wouldn't have anything in his repertoire to deal with the wolves. So you can't say that he would lose regardless. Based on shunsui' record and manga evidence, shunsui would be the one to win regardless

2. It doesn't negate teh fact that after each hit to WW, yama went after aizen. Had he been serious and wanted to completeley destroy WW, WW would have fared exponentially worse than what already happened

3. It was yama who blew WW away. he blocked the attack for aizen.

En Yang Ji
December 13, 2010, 10:49 PM
1. No. u ASSUME that shunsui wouldn't have anything in his repertoire to deal with the wolves. So you can't say that he would lose regardless. Based on shunsui' record and manga evidence, shunsui would be the one to win regardless

2. It doesn't negate teh fact that after each hit to WW, yama went after aizen. Had he been serious and wanted to completeley destroy WW, WW would have fared exponentially worse than what already happened

3. It was yama who blew WW away. he blocked the attack for aizen.

1. I'm only going based off what we've seen. Shunsui, while limited to his shikai, hasn't shown any ability that would allow him to deal with the wolves or ceros.

2. He went after Aizen 1 time when he fought WW and that's because he underestimated WW.

3. If Yama hit WW away he would be next to Aizen and WW would be behind Aizen. WW was in front of him.

Raizen
December 13, 2010, 11:02 PM
1. Again, u are assuming that shunsui has nothing he can do to deal with those wolves. I can easily say shunsui has games that would negate those wolves, ie the shadow game or the color game

2. You talked as if WW actually put up a fight against yama. He didn't!! Yama chewed him and spit him out. he gave yama no trouble whatsoever.

En Yang Ji
December 13, 2010, 11:23 PM
1. Again, u are assuming that shunsui has nothing he can do to deal with those wolves. I can easily say shunsui has games that would negate those wolves, ie the shadow game or the color game



I guess it's just a difference in opinion. I think Shunsui's shadow game is next to useless while in the air. Especially if Starrk see's Shunsui while he's uses it. The color game wouldn't do anything against the wolves and cero's.

Raizen
December 13, 2010, 11:27 PM
The color game only allows damage corresponding to the color the user calls. If starks does not call a color or if shunsui calls a color he is not wearing, i doubt the wolves would do any significant damage.

Shunsui was fast enough to dodge dozens of instantaneous ceros, do u honestly believe he would be caught by wolves who are much slower?

En Yang Ji
December 13, 2010, 11:39 PM
The color game only allows damage corresponding to the color the user calls. If starks does not call a color or if shunsui calls a color he is not wearing, i doubt the wolves would do any significant damage.

Shunsui was fast enough to dodge dozens of instantaneous ceros, do u honestly believe he would be caught by wolves who are much slower?

- Shunsui said that the user of the color game wouldn't be able to cut anything but the color called out.

- Shunsui dodged those ceros from a distance. Starrk was about to catch to Shunsui until Ukitake stepped in. The difference between the wolves and Starrk's ceros is that wolves can surround Shunsui.

- If the mood problem was just a plot device, it doesn't happen again and the color game negates energy attacks, Shunsui can take on Yama alone.

Raizen
December 15, 2010, 11:55 AM
- Shunsui said that the user of the color game wouldn't be able to cut anything but the color called out.

- Shunsui dodged those ceros from a distance. Starrk was about to catch to Shunsui until Ukitake stepped in. The difference between the wolves and Starrk's ceros is that wolves can surround Shunsui.

- If the mood problem was just a plot device, it doesn't happen again and the color game negates energy attacks, Shunsui can take on Yama alone.
1. Ya. What's your point? He also states that the amount of damage corresponds to the color called. If shunsui calls a color neither him nor starks is wearing he can minimize the damage
http://read.mangashare.com/Bleach/chapter-374/page014.html

1. So what? Starks shot dozens of ceros at him, then repeated it again. It wasn't just one go, he aimed and shot again. And shunsui still managed to dodge them one after the other. And ceros travel much faster than the wolves. Shunsui is much smarter than rose and love. he won't stand around trying to play whack-a-mole with them. Instead, he would dodge them or use one of his games to negate tehm

3. Statements like this just shows how weak your argument is. Yama is stronger than shunsui, he also knows how shunsui's blades work. Even if shunsui manages to negate yama's fire, yama is still a beastly fighter with his zanpaktou. Furthermore, it doesn't matter if u can negate your opponent's attacks if u can't deliver a counter blow to them yourself. Eventually the damages will add up

AlB
April 12, 2011, 01:58 PM
[Excluding Unohana]
The only captain that might have a chance of not getting rapestomped by WW is Shunsui. Others will get massacred by the degenerate.

Starrk, Ulquiorra, Gin, and Tousen are a tad too much for Shunsui to handle while WW ravages the others.

And no, I am not a nutcase. I am completely realistic when I say that WW can take on entire SS excluding Shunsui, Yamamoto and Retsu. We are talking about a guy who caught Yama's sword barehanded, oneshotted Ukitake, beat Bankaied Kensei, nearly took Urahara off guard, stopped Yamamoto's fist from connecting with Aizen's jaw, chased butterflies!!. The guy is one of the strongest entities of Bleach, add to that: HRS greater than Ulq's, Speed greater than Stark's, Hierro greater than Nnoitra's. What can the likes of kenpachi, Hitsugaya, Byakuya and Soifon hope to accomplish against such a powerhouse? The only one that has a shot on the kid is Shunsui.

Add Starrk, Ulquiorra, Gin, and Tousen to the equation and the outcome is clear.

Jorge D. Dragon
April 12, 2011, 02:04 PM
AlB
I agree with your post exept for Ulquiorra. He is way too overrated. He isn't as strong as people try to imply. He is just Cuatra Espada. He isn't stronger than Harribel or Barragan.
But still I agree with Wondy beeing able on taking one on one the majority of the Captains and Vaizards sinse he on-shotted Uki and supposdly beated Bankai Kensei.
Also his HSR and speed are deffinetly a big fit for him in a fight against practically everyone.:)

Raizen
April 12, 2011, 02:09 PM
Hitsu can freeze WW and trap him in his ice.
Or they could double team him and have soifon 2 hit KO him.

Jorge D. Dragon
April 12, 2011, 02:42 PM
I'd say that Hitsu's problem will be the same as Ukitake had - lack of speed. Also Wondy can negate the majority of attacks and supposedly has a big level of Reiatsu to fight Yama and seal his Zan.:)
I can see him being defeated by Soi Fong and Hitsu. Two Captains should be enough to defeat Wondy.:)

Raizen
April 12, 2011, 02:51 PM
WW- shunsui can take him/ prepared uki can, kenpachi solo or with byakuya or the combo of any 2 captains

Starks- manga showed shunsui can beat him. Or have ukitake use his zanpaktou to fight him. Byakuya could be a good choice as well

Ulquiorra- any captain can take him, aside from perhaps koma.

Gin- byakuya or hitsu is the viable choice based on manga

Tousen- soifon with perhaps koma helping her

So: WW vs kenpachi and hitsu or Mayuri poisons him
Starks vs shunsui or ukitake
Ulquiorra vs byakuya
Gin vs shunsui
Tousen vs koma and/or soifon

AlB
April 12, 2011, 03:04 PM
AlB
I agree with your post exept for Ulquiorra. He is way too overrated. He isn't as strong as people try to imply. He is just Cuatra Espada. He isn't stronger than Harribel or Barragan.
But still I agree with Wondy beeing able on taking one on one the majority of the Captains and Vaizards sinse he on-shotted Uki and supposdly beated Bankai Kensei.
Also his HSR and speed are deffinetly a big fit for him in a fight against practically everyone.:)

Well dude, I know Ulq is overrated. Not individually, but together with Gin, Tousen and Stark I believe he has a shot on Shunsui.


Hitsu can freeze WW and trap him in his ice.
Or they could double team him and have soifon 2 hit KO him.

All WW has to do is scream.
He already showed that he possesses enough reiatsu to completely stomp Hitsu's strongest technique (In bankai state, mind you). Shiro has nothing on the arrancar.
Same with Soifon, her abilities simply won't work.

Dude, who's the guy on the sig? :blink

En Yang Ji
April 12, 2011, 03:51 PM
WW is a big problem for whoever he goes up against. WW would just speed blitz and OHKO his opponents. Starkk 1000 ceros and his wolves would be a problem for anyone. Uquiorra's lanza IMO can one shot any captain on SS's team. Gin's bankai can easily OHKO his opponent too.

Takahashi
April 12, 2011, 03:58 PM
WW is a big problem for whoever he goes up against. WW would just speed blitz and OHKO his opponents. Starkk 1000 ceros and his wolves would be a problem for anyone. Uquiorra's lanza IMO can one shot any captain on SS's team. Gin's bankai can easily OHKO his opponent too.

I have to really, REALLY, disagree with the Lanza one shotting a captain...

En Yang Ji
April 12, 2011, 04:01 PM
I have to really, REALLY, disagree with the Lanza one shotting a captain...

why do you say that?

POW
April 12, 2011, 04:05 PM
Ulquiorra- ranking was based on the power they had seen not the hidden transformation they had not seen.

Halibeil is nothing special I feel quite certain Ulquiorra was stronger in his final form. Stark & Barragan had special powers that set them apart.

AlB
April 12, 2011, 04:12 PM
WW is a big problem for whoever he goes up against. WW would just speed blitz and OHKO his opponents. Starkk 1000 ceros and his wolves would be a problem for anyone. Uquiorra's lanza IMO can one shot any captain on SS's team. Gin's bankai can easily OHKO his opponent too.


I have to really, REALLY, disagree with the Lanza one shotting a captain...


Depends on the captain guys :)
Koma - yes. giant makes for an excellent target
Hitsu - yes. not fast enough to avoid + I do not think his Ice will hold out.
Soifon - no. too fast
Ukitake - Don't know
Shunsui - no. too fast
Byakuya - EDIT: changed my mind :p not sure... I'd say it would destroy petals but would not reach Byakuya.
Kenpachi - yes. the idiot will try to tank the attack
Mayuri - yes. Not much of a fighter

ShootToKill
April 12, 2011, 11:08 PM
So what we have is 5 "bad guys" up against 8 Captains.

We know if Tousen goes into bug form he can't be trusted to take on 2 opponents, he gets owned by a VC in these circumstances :D

WW should be capable of taking on at least 2 mid tier Captains, say Byakuya and Hitsugaya. Tousen can take on Komamura 1 on 1, as has been seen. Starrk would have a tough time against Shunsui and Ukitake, and if Ukitake's Shikai ability counts for the wolves, he'll have a VERY tough time.

Ulquiorra should be a good match up against Soifon - she'll have the slight edge in speed (probably) whereas he'll have quite a considerable advantage in power (after Resurreccion especially), so I could see Ulq winning.

This leaves Gin vs Mayuri and Kenpachi - I organized it this way so that Gin was up against 2 opponents with relatively poor mobility, allowing him to keep his distance and use Kamishininoyari. Mayuri will be out for the count (liquified anyway) pretty soon, and Ken can only take being impaled so many times before he goes down (Kamishininoyari >>> Tousen's Shikai blades in terms of power I would imagine), so Gin wins his fight reasonably fast.

Gin is now free to do what he does best - snipe the remaining Captains with Kamishininoyari while they are preoccupied with their fights :D

So I think Aizen's elites definitely have a chance.

Raizen
April 14, 2011, 11:05 AM
All WW has to do is scream.
He already showed that he possesses enough reiatsu to completely stomp Hitsu's strongest technique (In bankai state, mind you). Shiro has nothing on the arrancar.
Same with Soifon, her abilities simply won't work.

Dude, who's the guy on the sig? :blink
Can he scream when he is encased in ice?
And I don't think WW has enough reiatsu to completely negate soifon's shikai.

The guy's name is anthony. He's from AAG :hurr
[hr]

WW is a big problem for whoever he goes up against. WW would just speed blitz and OHKO his opponents. Starkk 1000 ceros and his wolves would be a problem for anyone. Uquiorra's lanza IMO can one shot any captain on SS's team. Gin's bankai can easily OHKO his opponent too.
Except that won't happen. U think 1-shotting people is so easy.
Ukitake can perfectly counter starks attacks
Gin can be taken on by a couple captains
Ulqui is a noob with his lanza
And WW while is strong, is not unstoppable. 2 captains should be able to take him out

AlB
April 14, 2011, 12:36 PM
Can he scream when he is encased in ice?
And I don't think WW has enough reiatsu to completely negate soifon's shikai.



Incapacitation is not instantenous, once WW gets wind of what's going around he'll scream and Hitsu's technique will shatter.

He doesn't need to completely negate it. Once Soifon gets anywhere near him she's doomed. The brat will simply tear her apart.
<hr noshade size="1">


The guy's name is anthony. He's from AAG :hurr


Oh, you mean Association of American Geographers? :XD

Raizen
April 14, 2011, 01:06 PM
Incapacitation is not instantenous, once WW gets wind of what's going around he'll scream and Hitsu's technique will shatter.

He doesn't need to completely negate it. Once Soifon gets anywhere near him she's doomed. The brat will simply tear her apart.
<hr noshade size="1">


Oh, you mean Association of American Geographers? :XD
I somewhat agree. 1-on-1, WW would give soifon and hitsu more than enough trouble. But if it was 2 captains against him, let's say soifon and hitsu. Hitsu can freeze WW the way he did aizen and immobilize him for a bit for soifon to go for the kill.

LOL. AAG is All American Guys. It is basically the male version of Maxim. A friend of mine is actually a popular model there haha

AlB
April 15, 2011, 05:27 AM
I somewhat agree. 1-on-1, WW would give soifon and hitsu more than enough trouble. But if it was 2 captains against him, let's say soifon and hitsu. Hitsu can freeze WW the way he did aizen and immobilize him for a bit for soifon to go for the kill.

LOL. AAG is All American Guys. It is basically the male version of Maxim. A friend of mine is actually a popular model there haha

That's what I'm trying to say: Hitsu's ice will not be able to hold him for an instant. We are talking about a guy who sent THE Yamamoto flying. Hitsugaya's ice will not be more hindering for WW's movements than a breeze. The only technique Hitsu has that might buy him couple of seconds against Wondy is HH, but Soifon will not get anywhere near WW because she will risk getting caught.

Anyway, WW most certainly will be able to nullify Soifon's ability. I mean, Hitsugaya's Bankai mode HH is certainly more powerful attack (reiatsu-wise) than Soifon's Shikai. If WW can cancel the former, then I do not see any reason he will not be able to do the same with the latter.

I know, I was messing around :) :)

Crystal Black
April 15, 2011, 12:16 PM
So is it all of SS captains vs WW, Starrk, Ulquiorra, Gin and Tosen. If so I believe they have a chance at victory but only slightly. The main threat and problem from Aizen's elites is WW. Starrk, gets defeated by Kyoraku and possibly Ukitake. Hitsugaya and Gin have a rematch. Byakuya defeats anyform of Tosen while the rest of the captains gang on Ulquiorra.

Jorge D. Dragon
April 16, 2011, 07:25 AM
Actually Ulquiorra can be dealed by any Captain. The same goes for Gin. Starrk can be dealed if not by single Shunsui, but he will be dealed by Shunsui and Ukitake duo for sure.
Tousen can be dealed by two Captains without a problem.
Wondy can be the problem, but two Captain in Bankai or Kenpachi +Byakuya can do the trick.;)

ShootToKill
April 16, 2011, 07:53 PM
Actually Ulquiorra can be dealed by any Captain. The same goes for Gin.
So R2 Ulqiorra could be defeated by Mayuri? If Ishida's FQF arrow could split his Bankai in half, I would imagine a Lanza could do so as well. I believe he'd be a good match for a number of the Captains in fact.

As for Gin, neither Mayuri, nor Komamura could dodge his Bankai - they would be dead within a split second. Kenpachi would have a hard time dodging it as well as he's not known for speed, as would Hitsugaya, although he has better defensive abilities, which could help him IF he were to react in time. Seeing as he's shown no real speed feats either, and his Shikai is ill suited against Gin, I think Ukitake would have a hard time repeatedly dodging Kamishininoyari as well. So the only real contenders againt Gin are going to be Soifon, due to her speed, Byakuya due to having reasonable speed, good all round abilities, and a Bankai which Gin would have a tough time defending against, and Shunsui, again due to his high all round abilities. But I still believe Gin has a good chance of handling any of them as well.


Starrk can be dealed if not by single Shunsui, but he will be dealed by Shunsui and Ukitake duo for sure.
Tousen can be dealed by two Captains without a problem.
It's possible, although if Ukitake's Shikai doesn't work on the wolves then it would be a problem.

Wondy can be the problem, but two Captain in Bankai or Kenpachi +Byakuya can do the trick.;)
WW would blitz both of them imo. Byakuya would go down like Ukitake, and Ken would take more hits but would have to go down himself eventually.

Jorge D. Dragon
April 18, 2011, 06:31 AM
ShootToKill


So R2 Ulqiorra could be defeated by Mayuri? If Ishida's FQF arrow could split his Bankai in half, I would imagine a Lanza could do so as well. I believe he'd be a good match for a number of the Captains in fact.
Axtually I saw plenty of people arguing that Mayuri can take down Starrk and that his chances are not that low... Still of course Mayuri or Koma are a bit overstreching from my part, but still I'd say that the majority of Captains can kill Ulquiorra in one on one.


As for Gin, neither Mayuri, nor Komamura could dodge his Bankai - they would be dead within a split second. Kenpachi would have a hard time dodging it as well as he's not known for speed, as would Hitsugaya, although he has better defensive abilities, which could help him IF he were to react in time. Seeing as he's shown no real speed feats either, and his Shikai is ill suited against Gin, I think Ukitake would have a hard time repeatedly dodging Kamishininoyari as well. So the only real contenders againt Gin are going to be Soifon, due to her speed, Byakuya due to having reasonable speed, good all round abilities, and a Bankai which Gin would have a tough time defending against, and Shunsui, again due to his high all round abilities. But I still believe Gin has a good chance of handling any of them as well.
I can agree that Mayuri and Koma won't dodge Gin's Bankai, but I can't agree that Kenpachi isn't known for his speed. He is pretty fast, but he doesn't use Shunpo. But he actually run pretty quickly.
I can see Gin beating Kenpachi and Toushiro, but he is surely inferiour in overall abilities compared to all other Captains. Actually his only feat is his Bankai and most of the Captains have good reaction, enough speed and their Shikais and Bankais to counter his Bankai.

It's possible, although if Ukitake's Shikai doesn't work on the wolves then it would be a problem.
Actually if Shunsui didn't play lazy and dumb they would have finished Starrk earlier with Shunsui's games and Ukitake would only need to redirect Ceros if needed.


WW would blitz both of them imo. Byakuya would go down like Ukitake, and Ken would take more hits but would have to go down himself eventually.
You get a point, but still they have pretty decent chance, considering that Byakuya can use Cicada and can use Kidou. He can bind Wondy and make an opening for his own Bankai and Kenpachi's Kendo. That can make a win actually.

Raizen
April 19, 2011, 12:15 PM
That's what I'm trying to say: Hitsu's ice will not be able to hold him for an instant. We are talking about a guy who sent THE Yamamoto flying. Hitsugaya's ice will not be more hindering for WW's movements than a breeze. The only technique Hitsu has that might buy him couple of seconds against Wondy is HH, but Soifon will not get anywhere near WW because she will risk getting caught.

Anyway, WW most certainly will be able to nullify Soifon's ability. I mean, Hitsugaya's Bankai mode HH is certainly more powerful attack (reiatsu-wise) than Soifon's Shikai. If WW can cancel the former, then I do not see any reason he will not be able to do the same with the latter.

I know, I was messing around :) :)
Although WW is strong, sending someone flying does not mean u are super strong or close to the strength of the one u sent flying. ie po vs koma. Po sent koma flying, but Po was fodder for koma

WW's negation ability is quite strange. I don't know the extent to which it extends. Whether it can cancet suzemebachi is arguable. But i think 2 captains combined can bring WW down.

The rest of the captains can take the other fighters as i have posted a couple pages back

CeroOskuraz
April 20, 2011, 03:24 PM
What? Aizen's elites would tear Soul Society to shreds

Wonderweiss has the potency to possibly solo all the Junior Captains at once. GIn and Stark don't quite have the feats to do so but it's not a long ways to say each of them can beat two or three at once. Ulquiorra would one-shot many of the Junior Captains with Lanza, as would cricket Tousen.

So to be honest, they tear up the Junior Captains in very little time with maybe some guys to stall Shikai Shunsui/Ukitake; Stark was doing a good job of it by himself before the wolves even came out, and Shikai Shunsui/Ukitake simply don't stand a chance against all those opponents by themselves either.

HaouLelouch
May 02, 2011, 05:07 PM
if everyone goes all out instantly we have...

Gin's kamishini no yari
Stark's wolves
Ulquiorra R2
Tousen's resurrecion
wonderweiss released

against...

Shunsui with his unpredictable shikai
Ukitake with shikai
Unohana who can only heal since she shown no other feats
Hitsugaya with bankai (no HH since his comrades are there)
Byakuya with bankai
Komamura with bankai
Soifon with bankai though she might not use it
Kenpachi
Mayuri with bankai

wonderweiss and stark together should immediately attack shunsui and ukitake and take them down ASAP. those 2 should be together, if they're not stark should go for shunsui and destroy him before irooni activates while wonderweiss takes on ukitake. once they're done go and help ulquiorra. ulquiorra should take down byakuya and hitsu as soon as possible with the speed he blitzed vizard ichigo or spam lanza/cero oscuras (he should be able to deal with hitsu's ice attacks fine while cero oscuras should be able to dispell senbonzakura kageyoshi easily) before kenpachi interferes. then ulquiorra should move on to fight kenpachi which he should also win, as kenpachi will likely to try to tank ulq's hits while ulq himself can regenerate (ulq's feats are endless he should do fine). Tousen should be able to win against komamura and mayuri since his sound attack is perfect against giant bankais. if they're not together go for mayuri first. if tousen struggles then run to ulquiorra for help. Gin's 1 shot bankai should immediately try to snipe soifon, if he fails run to ulquiorra and worse case scenario it's gin+ulq vs byakuya+hitsu+kenpachi+soifon, those two should make it. after soifon is taken out Gin should immediately try to snipe unohana if she is actually healing, if not move on to slow opponents like kenpachi who has no chance to dodge kamishini no yari or try to snipe everyone from some distance away.

I know I made it sound like Aizen's elites can fight whoever they want but since they do have the superior speed/faster attacks I do think this is possible. (for example ulq could fire cero oscuras on the people he want to fight, stark and wonderweiss have both shown to be able to blitz shunsui/ukitake respectively so they should be able to fight them)

Aizen's elites takes this.

Deicide
May 03, 2011, 11:21 AM
Well I'll have to think a bit more about it considering the sheer number of players involved, but for now since SS have the numbers they will eventually win - especially since Soifon and Hitsugaya should have no problem setting up their more powerful Bankai attacks.

I pretty much agree with this post.

So yeah, I say the SS wins this.

En Yang Ji
May 03, 2011, 11:35 AM
IMO WW alone makes it so SS can't win, they don't have enough power to kill him. If WW can stop Yama's blade with his hierro no attack they have would kill him. Not to mention he fast enough to keep up with Yama, who can easily outrun Shunsui and Ukitake without being noticed. WW can blitz anyone in SS.

Raizen
May 03, 2011, 12:21 PM
IMO WW alone makes it so SS can't win, they don't have enough power to kill him. If WW can stop Yama's blade with his hierro no attack they have would kill him. Not to mention he fast enough to keep up with Yama, who can easily outrun Shunsui and Ukitake without being noticed. WW can blitz anyone in SS.
WW definitely can't blitzed a captain if they are prepared. He may be too much for some captains aside from the seniors, that is why it will take 2 of them to kill him.

The others can handle the rest

En Yang Ji
May 03, 2011, 01:18 PM
Do you actually think any of those captains can stop a released WW from blitzing them?

Raizen
May 03, 2011, 01:24 PM
Do you actually think any of those captains can stop a released WW from blitzing them?
Yes

En Yang Ji
May 03, 2011, 01:25 PM
Yes

WW was able to keep up with Yama can the other captains do that?

Raizen
May 03, 2011, 01:35 PM
WW was able to keep up with Yama can the other captains do that?
Yama was focused on trying to take out aizen. The moment yama was focused on ww, ww got owned.

WW is very powerful. But if the opponent is prepared, he can't 1-hit KO them, similar to how aizen can't do so even with KS. 2 captains would be more tha enough to beat WW... ie byakuya and kenpachi. Or koma and kenpachi

En Yang Ji
May 03, 2011, 01:37 PM
Yama was focused on trying to take out aizen. The moment yama was focused on ww, ww got owned.

WW is very powerful. But if the opponent is prepared, he can't 1-hit KO them, similar to how aizen can't do so even with KS. 2 captains would be more tha enough to beat WW... ie byakuya and kenpachi. Or koma and kenpachi

- WW was keeping up with Yama when Yama was focused only on WW

- Nobody in the opposing group as attack comparable to Yama's.

Raizen
May 03, 2011, 01:40 PM
- WW was keeping up with Yama when Yama was focused only on WW

- Nobody in the opposing group as attack comparable to Yama's.
1. Once yama was focused on WW, yama destroyed him. Where was WW keeping up with yama when yama was focused on just him?

2. Combined power of 2 captains with bankai or released eyepatch would be enough to annihilate WW.

En Yang Ji
May 03, 2011, 01:44 PM
1. Once yama was focused on WW, yama destroyed him. Where was WW keeping up with yama when yama was focused on just him?

2. Combined power of 2 captains with bankai or released eyepatch would be enough to annihilate WW.

1. http://www.mangafox.com/manga/bleach/v44/c394/13.html

2. Which 2 captains, and how would they combine power?

Raizen
May 03, 2011, 01:48 PM
1. http://www.mangafox.com/manga/bleach/v44/c394/13.html

2. Which 2 captains, and how would they combine power?
Yama dodged and then WW caught him. Then yama stood there and took the attack since he didn't care. He wanted to show how hopeless it was.

Byakuya and Kenpachi can combine their cutting power. Or ken and koma. While yama is strong, I think 2 captains with bankai can produce a level of power as strong as double bone. Don't u?

ShootToKill
May 03, 2011, 02:34 PM
Byakuya and Kenpachi can combine their cutting power. Or ken and koma. While yama is strong, I think 2 captains with bankai can produce a level of power as strong as double bone. Don't u?
WW would blitz all 3 of them...

Raizen
May 03, 2011, 02:56 PM
WW would blitz all 3 of them...
I guess that's where we disagree

cloudo
May 05, 2011, 04:06 PM
WW would lose to Kenpachi and Byakuya IMO. Or Shunsui solo. Or Soi-Fon and Hitsugaya.

Crystal Black
May 05, 2011, 04:19 PM
Nah I doubt that. Kenpachi and Byakuya may have defeated Yammy, but WW might be on a level above Yammy. Shunsui with bankai could probably defeat him though. Who knows maybe even with IroOni.

ShootToKill
May 05, 2011, 04:35 PM
No single Shinigami could defeat WW imo (with the exception of Yama and Aizen). Some of the stronger teams of two could do so I would imagine, but not Kenpachi and Byakuya - Yammy was huge and slow, WW seemed to be just as powerful on top of being extremely fast, not to mention HSR and the dozens of arms attacking simultaneously which an opponent would have to deal with.

Raizen
May 06, 2011, 03:46 PM
^ I disagree. I believe a senior would be able to take WW.

Kenpachi and Byakuya are one of the stronger captains aside from the seniors. I believe their combined power would be enough to beat WW

En Yang Ji
May 06, 2011, 03:52 PM
No single Shinigami could defeat WW imo (with the exception of Yama and Aizen). Some of the stronger teams of two could do so I would imagine, but not Kenpachi and Byakuya - Yammy was huge and slow, WW seemed to be just as powerful on top of being extremely fast, not to mention HSR and the dozens of arms attacking simultaneously which an opponent would have to deal with.

I think Urahara possibly could and Isshin definitely. If Urahara can get the cuffs on WW he wins and Isshin has GT. Other than those two, Aizen and Yama I don't think anyone else could possibly take WW. Maybe the senior captains could with bankai.

cloudo
May 06, 2011, 04:07 PM
Isshin has shown a GT, and faced against Aizen who was using his reiatsu to subdue the Hog'. Why he's so praised is beyond me. Along with Urahara. He got the jump on Aizen but ultimately didn't do enough to defeat him. Not even with help from Isshin and Yoruichi. It had to be Ichigo who weakened him enough. Urahara IMO isn't fast enough to place cuffs on WW. Yoruichi lacks the physical grunt to defeat him, even with Shunko. It'd take someone of Shunsui's caliber and hax games to kill him. Or two captains.

Raizen
May 06, 2011, 04:22 PM
So now urahara can take WW with the cuffs. The same cuffs that only worked b/c aizen was standing still and letting urahara try his tricks :eyeroll

Crystal Black
May 07, 2011, 10:08 PM
Sometimes I do feel WW is slighlty overrated. But then again I can't help but think to myself, who the hell can tank and exchange blows with the strongest shinigami.

As for the match, SS side should take this with high difficulty.

Takahashi
May 08, 2011, 12:07 AM
Sometimes I do feel WW is slighlty overrated. But then again I can't help but think to myself, who the hell can tank and exchange blows with the strongest shinigami.

I'm on the fence with WW as well. He was impressive, but I certainly don't believe he'd take Stark or Barragan. I'd label him as somewhere around Halibel's level, but with crazy good HSR.

ShootToKill
May 08, 2011, 01:26 AM
I would say that in base speed and power he might well be above any of the Espada, but Starrk and Barragan's abilities more than balance things out.